Subject: Re: Visa for South Korea

From: Ken Hornstein <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:12:27 -0500

>I'd be interested in answers people get from other consulate/embassy
>staff both from locations other than Boston and with different
>phrasings of the question.

Well, I finally was able to talk to someone at the Washington, DC, embassy.

Their answer?  "We're not sure, but you might need one".

I basically took the same tactic that Sam took; I described the IETF as
a professional organization, and explained I was attending a meeting
of this organization.  At first he said that a visa was not required,
because this counts as a "visit", but then he said he wasn't sure, and
maybe I would need a visa.

I then started asking a few more questions.  I asked what exactly
"business" travel was defined as, and after going around a few times
about it, he basically settled on the definition that if you were
travelling to Korea to a meeting for a "business purpose", then you
need a visa.

The whole thing was as clear as mud, and he clearly wasn't that familiar
with the regulations.  I might try calling a few more consulates to
see if I can find someone more knowledgeable.

BTW, has anyone been able to contact the host web site?  (The one
linked off of the IETF Seoul meeting web page)

http://www.tta.or.kr/ietf59/index.htm

I've been trying for a few days now and no go.  It doesn't seem like
a local network problem from where I'm sitting, but sometimes it's hard
to be sure.

--Ken

---

From: Gene Gaines <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:18:21 -0500

Ken,

As it happens, I attended a dinner Saturday that was addressed
by Ambassador Han, the Korean Ambassador to the U.S.

Taking up the Korean visa issue today, I spoke with an official
in the Washington DC visa section.

I believe I can state the visa regulation as it applies to U.S.
citizens.

  - Individuals traveling to Korean to attend the IETF meeting
    do not need a visa, as they are traveling to attend a
    non-profit conference.  They can stay in Korea up to 30
    day for such purpose and for tourism.

  - If you travel to Korea for business purposes, such as
    meeting customers or other business purposes, then a
    visa is needed.

  - This applies only to private U.S. citizens.  Government
    employees and citizens of other countries need to contact
    their local Korean embassy for a determination in their
    case. Ken, in your case, if you are a government employee,
    you will need a visa.

  - Another consideration concerning visa.  People attend
    IETF meetings as individuals, not directly representing
    their company -- and clearly a private individual traveling
    to attend a nonprofit technical meeting clearly does not
    need a visa.

Warning.  I am only relaying what was told to me today by a
responsible embassy official.  I am not attending the Seoul meeting,
but if I was, I would want to have an official statement from an
Korean official regarding the visa request.  One official who can
handle such a request at the visa section in Washington DC is
Mr. Sang Yoo.  I am copying this email to him.  A member of the
meeting committee might want to put a formal query to him, and
email his answer to the list.

For Mr. Yoo, details of the meeting:
59th IETF Meeting, Seoul, South Korea, 29 February - 5 March 2004.
For information about the IETF (Internet Engineering Task Force)
see: http://www.ietf.org/overview.html

Gene Gaines
[email-masked]

--

---

From: Ken Hornstein <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:45:22 -0500

>    day for such purpose and for tourism.

Ah, okay, this makes sense now, because there was a slight language
issue with the person I spoke with (I hesitate to mention it since I am
a typical American and am only monolingual, but it's relevant here).
The individual I spoke with said several times that if you "paid them
money" (referring to the organization) you needed a visa, but I think
based on the context he really meant "non-profit".  So this agrees
with Sam's information and what you found out.

>    meeting customers or other business purposes, then a

Right, there was no confusion on this issue, but this one clearly
doesn't apply.

>    case. Ken, in your case, if you are a government employee,

Luckily, I'm not, so that doesn't apply here.

>    to attend a nonprofit technical meeting clearly does not

Well ... this really depends on what you mean by "representing", I think.
Certainly the _theory_ at the IETF is that people are supposed to be
attending the meetings as individuals.  I've certainly seen a number of
cases where an individual was clearly representing a company rather
than theirself.  But I think it's a fuzzy line if your employer pays
for your trip and your salary while you're at IETF.  Sure, in the IETF
context, they may be just their as theirself.  But it sure would look
like they were representing their company to a third party (say, the
South Korean government).

--Ken

---

From: Bill Sommerfeld <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:04:15 -0500

>     meeting customers or other business purposes, then a

It's typical for my activity at IETF to fall somewhere between these
two cases.

I run into employees of my employer's customers and suppliers at IETF
all the time.  Small amounts of "business"-related discussions
invariably occur..

						- Bill

---

From: Bill Manning <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:24:23 -0800 (PST)

% >   - Individuals traveling to Korean to attend the IETF meeting
% >     do not need a visa, as they are traveling to attend a
% >     non-profit conference.  They can stay in Korea up to 30
% >     day for such purpose and for tourism.
% > 
% >   - If you travel to Korea for business purposes, such as
% >     meeting customers or other business purposes, then a
% >     visa is needed.
% 
% It's typical for my activity at IETF to fall somewhere between these
% two cases.
% 
% I run into employees of my employer's customers and suppliers at IETF
% all the time.  Small amounts of "business"-related discussions
% invariably occur..
% 
% 						- Bill

	get a visa.

--bill
Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and
certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise).

---

From: Sam Hartman <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:42:24 -0500

>>>>> "Ken" == Ken Hornstein <[email-masked]> writes:

    >>> What I'm really looking for is some form of official
    >>> government communication on the subject (unless of course the
    >>> hosts are the ones who are manning the passport control desks
    >>> at the airport).
    >>> 
    >> So call the nearest Korean consulate/embassy.  Answering this
    >> kind of question is part of their job.

    Ken> I actually already had put a call in to them; the relevant
    Ken> person was out of the office, but I left a message.  We'll
    Ken> see what they say.

I did as well and here is what I got.

The phone was answered.  I asked to speak to someone about Visa
information.  I was transferred to someone who answered in Korean; I
did not understand the greeting.

"Hi.  I'm an American citizen traveling to Seoul in late February to
attend a meeting of a professional society.  Do I need a visa?"

She asked again for my citizenship and then said that I did not need a
visa.

I chose to describe IETF as a professional society because saying
standards development organization when referring to something
non-ISO-based might confuse a government official.  Similarly, I was
concerned that conference might map to academic conference.