Subject: Re: Audio streaming and slides suggestion

From: John <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 04:50:47 +0200

Good idea, if the network works ... 
----- Original message -----
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]  <[email-masked]>
Sent: Fri 11 Nov 2005 07:08:26 PM EET
Subject: Audio streaming and slides suggestion
Hi,

I've heard from the people that is outside that the streaming is very
useful, but it will be even more if they can also have access to the slides.

I understand that is difficult to get the slides of everyone before the
meeting itself, but it should be very easy to centralize the slides in an
IETF server and ask the co-chairs to upload them right at the beginning of
each session.

To avoid extra overload from the co-chairs during the session, and if we
want to make it more strict, if any of the presenters is not done with
his/her slides, he will not be able to talk.

Regards,
Jordi

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From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 17:47:25 +0100

Good point :-(

Actually I've seen in some of the rooms a switch were the audio streaming
device was connected. I wonder if it will be possible to make always
available this switch so the chairs can always have good connectivity. Even
the chairs can actually at this way make sure that the one running jabber is
also being able to access to it ;-)

Regards,
Jordi

> De: John <[email-masked]>
> Responder a: <[email-masked]>
> Fecha: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 04:50:47 +0200
> Para: <[email-masked]>, "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
> Asunto: Re: Audio streaming and slides suggestion
> 
> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or
> confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the
> individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that
> any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this
> information, including attached files, is prohibited.
> 
> 
> 
>

---

From: "Marshall Eubanks" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 11:54:43 -0500

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 04:50:47 +0200
> his/her slides, he will not be able to talk.

No, he or she will not be able to use slides. There is frequently no real 
reason  to talk with slides
(especially if it's an update of the form "...There is a Discuss on Draft-WG-XYZ, but it
concerns a normative reference, and we can change the reference or wait ...").

Of course, I have suggested before on this list that the IETF consider using some sort
of on-line whiteboard technology, which would allow for real time viewgraph production and 
annotating, which also has  its uses.

> Jordi

Regards
Marshall

> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The
> information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the
> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of
> this information, including attached files, is prohibited.
> 
> 
> 
>

---

From: Alexandru Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 19:11:14 +0100

> IETF server and ask the co-chairs to upload them right at the beginning of

For some of the meetings I've attended the slides were available
centralized on an IETF server, right at the beginning of the session, at
  http://onsite.ietf.org/proceedings/05nov/slides/

The url doesn't seem to be accessible now though, but it was during the
meeting.

Alex

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:16:34 -0800 (PST)

> Good point :-(

Can you actually try replying inline so people can tell what you're 
talking about?

> also being able to access to it ;-)

As I pointed out earlier If you want to describe certain activities as 
mission critical and assign wired ports. That's cool, just be aware that 
the number of switch ports is finite and someone ends up bearing the cost.

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel Jaeggli  	       Unix Consulting 	       [email-masked]
GPG Key Fingerprint:     5C6E 0104 BAF0 40B0 5BD3 C38B F000 35AB B67F 56B2

---

From: Alexandru Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 19:16:43 +0100

Marshall Eubanks wrote:
> Of course, I have suggested before on this list that the IETF 
> consider using some sort of on-line whiteboard technology, which 
> would allow for real time viewgraph production and annotating, which 
> also has  its uses.

Whiteboard sounds good idea to me, but maybe new undesirable things come
with it (variable RTT per user is one).

I like better the approach of first do mp3 streaming and jabber, see if
and how participants adapt.  The next step - and before full whiteboard
- would be to splash the jabber on the projector together with the
slides, so the remote participants can easily participate.

I haven't seen any meeting where jabber is projected.

Alex

---

From: Geoff Huston <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 05:17:24 +1100

>his/her slides, he will not be able to talk.

"more strict"????

sorry, but that's just not on - if all we are these days as a meeting is a 
powerpoint  pack swap session, then we may as well pack up all this ietf 
stuff and all go away right now!

I appreciate that powerpoint does enable complex concepts to be conveyed 
with some ease, and that it (and its functional equivalants) is in heavy 
use these days, but I would be very worried if we get to a state that Jordi 
appears to be advocating where  a) powerpoint is a mandatory precondition 
for presenting at a WG meeting and b) you must present according to a 
previously deposited and circulated powerpoint script. We all do our best 
in terms of priorities, schedules and network stability to get this 
material up prior to a WG session, and sometimes it all works, and 
sometimes, despite our best of intentions, it does not.

Geoff

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:27:08 -0800 (PST)

> with it (variable RTT per user is one).

Back when things were being multicast with vic and vat we used wb as well 
though as far as I recall it was used almost eclusively by the remote 
participants (though that does predate the significant use of wireless at 
the IETF).

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 19:43:32 +0100

On Nov 15, 2005, at 7:27 PM, Joel Jaeggli wrote:

> Back when things were being multicast with vic and vat we used wb  
> as well though as far as I recall it was used almost eclusively by  
> the remote participants (though that does predate the significant  
> use of wireless at the IETF).

exactly , where is it ?

http://www.stanford.edu/~davidf/whiteboard.GIF

regards

---

From: "Spencer Dawkins" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 11:58:12 -0800

I may have misunderstood the discussion to this point, but I thought what 
was being discussed was the idea that IFF you were planning to give a 
powerpoint presentation (and, not coincidentally, give a verbal presentation 
that makes no sense without slides for context), you have to hand over the 
slides first, so that remote participants had a prayer of actually 
participating remotely.

I like that suggestion. I agree with Geoff that requiring powerpoint in 
order to occupy WG meeting space and time is not a good thing.

Spencer

> use these days, but I would be very worried if we get to a state that 
> Jordi appears to be advocating where  a) powerpoint is a mandatory 
> precondition for presenting at a WG meeting and b) you must present 
> according to a previously deposited and circulated powerpoint script. We 
> all do our best in terms of priorities, schedules and network stability to 
> get this material up prior to a WG session, and sometimes it all works, 
> and sometimes, despite our best of intentions, it does not.
>
> Geoff

---

From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 21:40:20 +0100

> De: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
> Fecha: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:16:34 -0800 (PST)
> Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[email-masked]>
> CC: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>

In my opinion the cost of not having this done is much bigger. Our time and
the effort of people participating remotely is much more costly.

>> individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware
>> that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this

---

From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 21:48:13 +0100

> De: Geoff Huston <[email-masked]>
> Fecha: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 05:17:24 +1100
> Para: John <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>,
> "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>

Sorry, was not my intend at all to say "mandatory power point" (or any other
format) but "mandatory to have any presentation material uploaded up-front
if you use it".

I don't want to ask anyone to have the slides some hours or days before, but
right before the session starts. I don't think anyone participating in the
session will modify its own slides during the session.

I also understand that this extra overhead from the chairs can be already on
the limit, but somebody suggested to use the figure of the WG secretariat.
Not sure if the secretariat has any additional functions, but if the cost
for me (having network) is to spend 5 minutes (actually probably less) to
upload the slides before the session, I'm happy to volunteer for that at
every WG where I'm participating.

I'm sure others will like to help also (hopefully).

Please, remember that this is not in our benefit (for those that attend the
meeting), but for those that are outside the meeting. Those people outside
the meeting are important for us. If they are there, probably in different
time zones, they are demonstrating their commitment, and we need to support
them.

---

From: Lixia Zhang <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 13:34:29 -0800

>> with it (variable RTT per user is one).

As Joel mentioned below, wb was in use for a few years back in early/ 
mid 90's. In addition to IETF we used it extensively in research  
discussions among remote collaborators. Variable RTT did not seem to  
be an noticeable issue.

> use of wireless at the IETF).

the display device at the meeting location might be the issue.
Sitting in the office individual can use his/her desktop/laptop to  
draw/type/input PS files to the wb, but the meeting room needs a big  
size display that everyone can see (this was before the day of  
projectors).

Lixia

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 16:51:18 -0500

I agree with Geoff.

My theory is, if the projector bulb blows out  the  second before you  
go on, and the
spare is also dead (you'd be surprised how common that is), you  
should be able to get
your points (or, at least the most important ones) across regardless.

If all there is is sharing of ppt and pdf, might as well do it by   
email.

Marshall

On Nov 15, 2005, at 1:17 PM, Geoff Huston wrote:

> sorry, but that's just not on - if all we are these days as a  
> meeting is a powerpoint  pack swap session, then we may as well  
> pack up all this ietf stuff and all go away right now!
>
> I appreciate that powerpoint does enable complex concepts to be  
> conveyed with some ease, and that it (and its functional  
> equivalants) is in heavy use these days, but I would be very  
> worried if we get to a state that Jordi appears to be advocating  
> where  a) powerpoint is a mandatory precondition for presenting at  
> a WG meeting and b) you must present according to a previously  
> deposited and circulated powerpoint script. We all do our best in  
> terms of priorities, schedules and network stability to get this

---

From: Paul Hoffman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:54:10 -0800

At 11:58 AM -0800 11/15/05, Spencer Dawkins wrote:
>I may have misunderstood the discussion to this point, but I thought 
>what was being discussed was the idea that IFF you were planning to 
>give a powerpoint presentation (and, not coincidentally, give a 
>verbal presentation that makes no sense without slides for context), 
>you have to hand over the slides first, so that remote participants 
>had a prayer of actually participating remotely.

Why are we discussing this as a requirement, not a suggestion? I am 
one of the people who was listening from afar last week, and the one 
presentation where the person didn't get his slides out in time was 
frustrating, but I certainly got some of the technical content 
without the visual context. I would have gotten more if I could see 
his slides, but that is not a good enough reason to tell him "no, you 
cannot speak without your slides on the web site, it's against the 
IETF rules", nor "you can speak but you can't use the slideware you 
have right there, because a few people listening remotely would be 
disadvantaged".

This really sounds like the "MUST vs. SHOULD" debates when people 
don't read RFC 2119. Often, what they really want is "MAY (and it is 
a very good idea)" but they feel like making it MORE IMPORTANT anyway.

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--VPN Consortium

---

From: Carsten Bormann <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:53:25 +0100

On Nov 15 2005, at 21:48 Uhr, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:

> I don't think anyone participating in the

You cannot have been to IETFs much, have you? :-)
People modify their slides even *during their presentation* all the  
time, certainly also in response to results of previous agenda items.

Presenters really need real-time write access to the materials  
repository (channelling through a chair busy with chairing the WG is  
not an option).
This requires the chair to be able to hand out write access to the  
repository (preferably just for the specific presentation slot, to  
minimize accidents) to the presenter in real-time.
Not really hard to do, but a requirement that the tools developers  
should be aware of.

Gruesse, Carsten

---

From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:04:13 +0100

> De: Carsten Bormann <[email-masked]>
> Fecha: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:53:25 +0100
> Para: <[email-masked]>
> CC: Carsten Bormann <[email-masked]>, "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>

Yes, you're right, but we need to be fair to remote participants, so even if
the slides are being modified during the presentation, it still helps to
have a version up-front uploaded, because you will modify a bit a few
slides, not everything, hopefully ;-)

> repository (channelling through a chair busy with chairing the WG is

Then we don't want to just upload the slides, but offer also a "simple"
slides and white board system.

---

From: "Steven M. Bellovin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 03:16:02 -0500

In message <[email-masked]>, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ w

>slides and white board system.

VNC, perhaps?  (www.realvnc.com)

I've been known to fire up a mini-web server on my laptop during talks, 
so people could get immediate access, even if Internet connectivity was 
flakey.  I haven't tried running in HostAP mode with a dhcp daemon 
running, but I've come close...

		--Steven M. Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:07:33 +0100

> The url doesn't seem to be accessible now though, but it was during the

That was the on-site mirror. Try
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=64
for the latest version of everything.

     Brian

---

From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 19:29:24 -0500

On Tuesday, November 15, 2005 03:54:10 PM -0800 Paul Hoffman 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> I am one
> of the people who was listening from afar last week, and the one
> frustrating, but I certainly got some of the technical content without
> the visual context. I would have gotten more if I could see his slides,
> but that is not a good enough reason to tell him "no, you cannot speak
> without your slides on the web site, it's against the IETF rules", nor
> "you can speak but you can't use the slideware you have right there,
> because a few people listening remotely would be disadvantaged".

I was present at that session, and we wasted a certain amount of time
while the presenter tried to get his laptop working.  In the meantime,
not only could we not see the slides, but we couldn't hear the speaker,
either, because he wasn't speaking yet.  While the presentation did
happen after a couple of minutes delay, we could have used those minutes
at the end of the session during open mic, which in that particular
group is often lively.

To avoid precisely this phenomenon, both I and some other chairs I know
request that presenters make their slides available in advance, both so
we can put them up on the web and so we can have them pre-loaded on the
chair's laptop* (which s/he is presumed to have gotten working prior to
the start of the session).

While having up-to-the-minute slides available in advance isn't always
possible, we've found this approach to be extremely helpful.

-- Jeff

* Actually, when possible, we try to have a dedicated machine for
  presentations, so the chair doesn't have to give up the machine
  he's using for note-taking, previewing slides, watching jabber, etc.
  Typically one of us brings a machine which is used for this purpose
  in multiple WG's.