Subject: RE: I-D file formats and internationalization

From: "Gray, Eric" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 17:58:52 -0500

Robert,

	See below...

--> -----Original Message-----
--> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] 
--> On Behalf Of Robert Sayre
--> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 5:38 PM
--> To: Hallam-Baker, Phillip
--> Cc: [email-masked]; Keith Moore; Tim Bray; [email-masked]
--> Subject: Re: I-D file formats and internationalization
--> 
--> On 12/1/05, Hallam-Baker, Phillip <[email-masked]> wrote:
--> >
--> > On a point of information, most of the references I see 
--> > in existing RFCs are to sections in any case.
--> 
--> I suspect this is because almost everyone refers to an HTML 
--> version in informal communication. 

Actually, at least for my own part, the reason is simply that
I am creating the text without any awareness of page numbers.

Whether you use nroff or XML, the document is not broken into
pages until you process it.  Consequently, for ar least some 
people, the only reasonable references are to section numbers
- and even that gets messy if you need to re-organize text. 

--> But, I actually agree with Keith that keeping the format as 
--> a text file is the right thing to do. I agree with Tim about 
--> internationalization and printing reality, but think UTF-8 
--> text files would be the best route.
--> 
--> I don't like the idea of using HTML, because it breaks up 
--> the document and allows bitmap illustrations. I think Keith 
--> is spot-on when he says the text format encourages clear 
--> thinking. 

Unfortunately, as many of us are aware, not everybody thinks 
- or even comprehends - the same way.  For some people, text 
is explicitly problematic; however, most anybody is able to 
understand simple diagrams - at least, once they are explained.

--> In the WG I frequent, I've found that the worst and most 
--> complicated ideas usually come with elaborate illustrations.

Yes, but sometimes this is not causal in the way that you
think it is.  In some cases, an elaborate illustration is
justified by the complicated ideas it helps to explain and
not the other way around.

--> 
--> Anyway, I'm still not clear on the what must-have software is
--> preventing the IETF from using UTF-8. My linux systems allow me to
--> write Thai and Katakana in vi. Guess it must be the printing. I
--> haven't owned a printer since 1998, so I find it hard understand why
--> some consider printing to be a frequent and important task.

:-)

--> 
--> --
--> 
--> Robert Sayre
--> 
--> "I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have 
--> the time."

I love this quote.  Too bad it's not attributed.  Did you make
it up yourself?  I'd like to use it sometime...

--> 
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---

From: "Randy.Dunlap" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 10:08:54 -0800

> it up yourself?  I'd like to use it sometime...

(never saw an answer)

The internet shows a few attributions to some Mark Twain
and lots of attributions to some Blaise Pascal....

---
~Randy

---

From: Masataka Ohta <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 14:04:47 +0900

> and lots of attributions to some Blaise Pascal....

Anyway, the true ID internationalization is to make the IDs
short and concise so that non-native users of English are
not overwhelmed by the huge quantity and thin content of
the IDs.

There is no point to expand the character set only to make
the IDs illegible in most international environment and,
even if some environment support it, by most international
people.

						Masataka Ohta