Subject: Re: IETFs... the final Friday?

From: Allison Mankin <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:07:31 -0800

Three comments on Friday scheduling:

1.
In my scheduling struggle as AD, I've always needed Fridays pretty
desperately, though I'm hopeful that with the RAI/TSV split, things
will be better.

2.
Some of us wondered if Friday would be more attractive if the net
didn't come down at noon, so that if you commit to staying for the WG
meeting on Friday morning, and you have a late flight, or fly out the
next morning, you can get some work or email done during the rest of
the day.

Anyone else find resonance with that?

3.
Finally, I noticed the IAD included a question about Friday meeting or
not in the survey we were invited to on 9 January.  Getting a sense of
peoples' views quantitatively is good, though that was a
self-selected group, rather than a random sample that could be
assigned a statistical mapping to the IETF population.

Allison

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From: Ken Raeburn <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:22:03 -0500

> Anyone else find resonance with that?

Definitely.  Tearing it down at noon definitely gives the feeling of  
"you're done, you should be gone now".

> assigned a statistical mapping to the IETF population.

How about a questionnaire at the next IETF or two?  (With collection  
going through Friday noon at least, of course.)  Still somewhat self- 
selected, but it's reaching out specifically to those who attend  
regularly.

Ken

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From: Lars Eggert <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 23:25:11 +0100

> Anyone else find resonance with that?

Yes! Since HIPRG meets Friday afternoon and there are often no  
flights back to Europe after it ends, we typically have to stay until  
Saturday. (Then again, free wireless is pretty easy to find in most  
cities these days.)

Lars
--
Lars Eggert                                     NEC Network Laboratories

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From: Eric Rescorla <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:26:31 -0800

> "you're done, you should be gone now".

Totally agree.

-Ekr

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From: "Spencer Dawkins" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:41:24 -0600

> Anyone else find resonance with that?

Oh, yeah. In addition to the people who mentioned RGs and ad hocs meeting on 
Friday afternoon, there really are a bunch of IETF people staying over 
Friday night for Saturday flights, but you can't find them, because the bars 
went offline after lunch, so they're all in their rooms :-)

I've stayed for drafting sessions on Friday afternoons - we were the last 
people unplugged (thanks to the secretariat), but we were unplugged at about 
2:30 PM, and we were a lot more productive when we were plugged in.

There are IETF meeting sites where I've found reasonable non-IETF wireless 
on Friday afternoons and evenings, but it's not consistently "there" yet.

I've also seen hotels offering "Internet access", which turned out to be one 
computer that you couldn't unplug, in major cities within the last six 
months. Not at the hotels we have deals with, but not everyone can afford to 
stay at the "official" hotels...

Thanks for asking, Allison,

Spencer

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From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:10:04 -0500

>> "you're done, you should be gone now".

As do I.  Of course, agreeing that the net should stay up the rest of 
Friday is the easy part.  The hard part is getting the volunteers who do 
the work to commit to staying around that long...

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From: "Theodore Ts'o" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:36:29 -0500

> the work to commit to staying around that long...

... not to mention the cost of keeping the hotel rooms for the extra
day or so.  (Presumably if some or all of the wireless infrastructure
is left running until Friday night, it means that at least some of the
rooms can't get released back to the hotel until mid-day Saturday, and
the volunteers will have to do some of the final teardown Saturday
morning.)

						- Ted

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From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:16:14 -0500

> Anyone else find resonance with that?

Yes, strongly.

An afternoon social would not be out of place, either, I suspect. Maybe
a beer and gear could be arranged with sponsors.

Of course, the volunteers probably want to get out of town ASAP, so
it's a balancing act.

Regards
Marshall Eubanks

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From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:02:28 +0100

Ken Raeburn wrote:
...
> selected, but it's reaching out specifically to those who attend  

I think we'll stick to an on-line survey; having people do their own
data entry and having a computer add up the numbers saves a lot of
clerical expense. We can discriminate in the survey between attendees
and non-attendees. As for the self-selection bias that Allison notes,
I'm afraid that is very hard to avoid without much more work.

     Brian

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 10:59:57 +0100

>the volunteers will have to do some of the final teardown Saturday
Teardown doesn't take so much time (from my last participation to it)  
that you couldn't postpone the final moment and still be able to remove 
it the same day. In addition, we're not necessarily talking about 
leaving it all up. It would be enough to leave a few Wifi spots and a 
couple of wired switches in/close to the terminal room, leaving a lot of 
space for teardown work (meeting rooms, most of the APs, cables, 
terminal room tables/switches/power/printers, backup links,...). Routers 
and other equipment would go last, but most of the work would already be 
done by then.
So it doesn't have to be exactly noon, there is some wiggle room there.
Regards,
Julien.

-- 
Julien Maisonneuve

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From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:06:20 +0100

Let's not sweat the details on this list.

We've got two points from this conversation:

1. it is good to have BOFs earlier in the week if possible,
subject to scheduling constraints.

2. it would be much appreciated, subject to financial limits,
to have some wireless connectivity through Friday afternoon.

I'm sure the IAD will note these points for future
planning.

    Brian

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From: "Spencer Dawkins" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 07:56:34 -0600

Ack.

> I'm sure the IAD will note these points for future

And thanks!

Spencer

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From: Cyrus Daboo <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 21:50:50 -0500

Hi Brian,

> to have some wireless connectivity through Friday afternoon.

It may be enough just to keep the terminal room open as long as possible 
(with both wired and wireless access only in that area) but allow wireless 
in the meeting rooms to be dismantled after all meetings are done.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo