Subject: IETF65 hotel location

From: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:16:50 +0200 (EET)

Hi,

Looking at the restaurant map, it seems that the IETF65 hotel/venue is 
basically "in the middle of nowhere".  Restaurants are typically 2+ 
miles away, and my guess is that public transportation or walking 
aren't options.

Maybe folks more experienced in the area can shed some light on this. 
Is it expected that folks rent a car in order not to starve, or..? 
Drive 500 taxis back and forth?

It'd be useful to clarify this for planning and preparation purposes.

This statement, "The Wyndham is less than a ten minute walk from the 
Hilton Anatole." is a bit odd -- at least Maporama prints out the 
distance as 22.7 kilometers, 16 mins with a car.  Did I do something 
wrong?

-- 
Pekka Savola                 "You each name yourselves king, yet the
Netcore Oy                    kingdom bleeds."
Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings

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Ietf mailing list
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf

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From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:04:08 +0100

Pekka,

> Maybe folks more experienced in the area can shed some light on this. Is 
> it expected that folks rent a car in order not to starve, or..? Drive 
> 500 taxis back and forth?

There is food on site of course, but taxis (shared!) seem to be needed
for wider choice of restaurants.

> distance as 22.7 kilometers, 16 mins with a car.  Did I do something wrong?

You must have. Mapquest says 0.3 miles.

     Brian

---

From: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:30:51 +0200 (EET)

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> This statement, "The Wyndham is less than a ten minute walk from the Hilton 
>> Anatole." is a bit odd -- at least Maporama prints out the distance as 22.7 
>> kilometers, 16 mins with a car.  Did I do something wrong?
>

FWIW: there appear to be two locations "2201 Stemmons Freeway, 
Dallas".  Maporama used zip code 75006 for me, while the correct 
appears to be 75207.  I guess this explains the situation.

Based on what I hear on dialogue which happened on wgchairs list on 
this, it's still not clear if you can be expected to be able to walk 
from Wyndham to the venue...

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 07:52:34 -0800 (PST)

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, Pekka Savola wrote:

>>> Hilton Anatole." is a bit odd -- at least Maporama prints out the distance 
>>> as 22.7 kilometers, 16 mins with a car.  Did I do something wrong?
>> 
> FWIW: there appear to be two locations "2201 Stemmons Freeway, Dallas". 
> Maporama used zip code 75006 for me, while the correct appears to be 75207. 
> I guess this explains the situation.
>
> Based on what I hear on dialogue which happened on wgchairs list on this, 
> it's still not clear if you can be expected to be able to walk from Wyndham 
> to the venue...

There is essentially another hotel and a parking lot between the two 
hotels.

google local is pretty accurate:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=2015+Market+Center+Boulevard+Dallas,+Texas+75207&btnG=Search&ll=32.797232,-96.824827&spn=0.018759,0.059094

it's about 300 meters, maybe less.

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel Jaeggli  	       Unix Consulting 	       [email-masked]
GPG Key Fingerprint:     5C6E 0104 BAF0 40B0 5BD3 C38B F000 35AB B67F 56B2

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From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 07:57:08 -0800

> miles away, and my guess is that public transportation or walking aren't 
> options.

Periodically, the IETF venue is quite isolated.

This makes it inconvenient not only for getting to restaurants but also for 
attendees wanting to stay at cheaper hotels.

Frequently it even makes it difficult to just walk around.

d/
-- 

Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
<http://bbiw.net>

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From: John Levine <[email-masked]>
Date: 27 Jan 2006 16:36:49 -0000

>distance as 22.7 kilometers, 16 mins with a car.  Did I do something 

Whassa matter, 23 km is too far to walk?  Wimp.

Visiting Dallas without a car is like visiting Nome without a parka.
It just isn't done.  I've heard reports of police stopping people for
suspicious behavior, with the behavior being that they were walking.

Rental cars are cheap.  I found one for $17/day at the airport.  Since
a taxi from the airport to the hotel is about $35 each way, a car is
basically the same price and it gives you the option of leaving the
hotel.

Google Maps has an excellent view of the area around the hotel, on
which you can zoom way in and see the individual cars in the parking
lot.  You won't need a parka, but if you plan to do much walking, you
may need a gas mask.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=2201+N+Stemmons+Freeway,+Dallas,+TX&btnG=Search&t=h&ll=32.801182,-96.827209&spn=0.012193,0.021393&t=h

There are a lot of hotels in the area other than the two on the IETF
web site, easily found through services like Orbitz and Expedia, or by
looking at the satellite map and observing all the swimmming pools,
each of which belongs to a hotel or motel, then clicking Find
Businesses, and tell it you want hotels:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=l&hl=en&q=hotel&near=2201+N+Stemmons+Freeway,+Dallas,+TX&btnG=Search&ll=32.801182,-96.827209&spn=0.012193,0.014398&t=h

I'm staying at the Marriott Fairfield Inn down the street, for
$99/night which is supposed to include breakfast and WiFi.  Orbitz
wanted me to prepay but I got the same price non-prepay at
marriott.com.  The Wyndam is actually about two blocks south of the
Anatole, inside the bend of the creek.  Google says it's 33 seconds
away by car.

There doesn't appear to be anywhere to eat nearby other than the hotel
restaurants, so you're right, if you don't want to starve, you need a
taxi, a car, or a friend with one.

R's,
John

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From: David Kessens <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:40:07 -0800

Dave,

On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 07:57:08AM -0800, Dave Crocker wrote:
> 
> This makes it inconvenient not only for getting to restaurants but
> also for attendees wanting to stay at cheaper hotels.

There is a wide selection of cheaper hotels available around the
meeting hotel that are all walking distance.

Restaurants at walking distance are indeed problematic. However, the
hotel has quite a few choices of it's own and there are quite a few
very good restaurants a short cab ride away.

We realize that this is not ideal. Site selection is a compromise.

To give a bit of background: unfortunately, the hotel selection
process started very late which limited the amount of available venues
such that we didn't had the luxury to select a hotel that could
satisfy all criteria as much as we would have liked. We as Nokia
offered to host the meeting when we heard at a fairly late stage that
IETF was still in need for a host and that Dallas was being considered
by the secretariat (Our US headquarters are in Dallas).

My personal hope is that the selection process will happen more in
advance future now that we have Ray in place as our IAD.

> Frequently it even makes it difficult to just walk around.

As everything in Dallas, this hotel is quite large. Just a walk around
the premises will be quite a bit. 

David Kessens
---

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From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:45:14 -0800

> meeting hotel that are all walking distance.

The mapping page that the anatole provides seemed to show the closest 
alternative as about .8 miles, and seemed to require walking down a problematic 
street.  Google seems to show it more like .2 and straightforward.

sorry for the confusion.

d/

-- 

Dave Crocker

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From: "Robin Uyeshiro" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:22:17 -1000

Try this:

http://maps.a9.com/?ypLoc=2015%20Market%20Center%20Blvd%2C%20Dallas%2C%2
0TX

You can "walk" down the street and see things.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of
David Kessens
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 9:40 AM
To: [email-masked]
Cc: Pekka Savola; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: IETF65 hotel location

Dave,

David Kessens
---

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From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 13:02:41 -0500

This can be argued both ways. (The most productive meeting I think  
that I ever went to
was a physics standardization meeting in a castle in the South of  
England with nothing of note within 20 miles, and not even a pub  
within 10 miles. All we could do is work, meet and bond. And raid the  
wine cellar.)

However, to be constructive, I would like to suggest adding two yes  
or no questions to the next meeting
questionnaire :

A.) Do you feel that the venue chosen for the meeting was too remote,  
in terms of accessibility
of restaurants, bars, your or other hotels, etc. ?

B.) (If "A" is answered yes.) Would having another IETF meeting in a  
site that is similarly remote make it
less likely that you would attend ?

BTW, the last time I was in Dallas my wife and I walked all over  
downtown, including over to Dealy Plaza.
It was hot, we were the only pedestrians except for some street  
people (except at the Plaza itself),
and we never saw a cab (except at a hotel we went by). My advice is,  
if you really want to get around, rent a car.

Regards
Marshall

On Jan 27, 2006, at 10:57 AM, Dave Crocker wrote:

>> Looking at the restaurant map, it seems that the IETF65 hotel/ 
>> venue is basically "in the middle of nowhere".  Restaurants are  
>> typically 2+ miles away, and my guess is that public  
>> transportation or walking aren't options.
>
>

---

From: lconroy <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 18:28:43 +0000

Marshall,
   How the heck did you manage to find *anywhere* in the South of  
England
where the nearest pub was over 10 miles away? As a Southerner, I'm  
amazed.

Seriously, folks, I try to avoid driving on the wrong side of the  
road, so is
there a problem in walking about in this area of Dallas at this time  
of year?

Also, will the Agenda give longer breaks for Lunch?
- it would seem that it will take some time to get to an external food
   joint, eat, and get back.

BTW - Answer to voodoo poll = B/yes. I sure hope that there is good time
to decide on venues in the future, and that decisions on venue (e.g.  
away
from Las Vegas) are not delayed.

Finally, my congratulations and sympathies to the hosts who "stepped  
up to
the plate" on short notice.

all the best,
   Lawrence

On 28 Jan 2006, at 18:02, Marshall Eubanks wrote:
> within 10 miles. All we could do is work, meet and bond. And raid  
> the wine cellar.)
>
> A.) Do you feel that the venue chosen for the meeting was too  
> remote, in terms of accessibility
> B.) (If "A" is answered yes.) Would having another IETF meeting in  
> a site that is similarly remote make it
> and we never saw a cab (except at a hotel we went by). My advice  
> is, if you really want to get around, rent a car.
>
> Regards
> Marshall
>

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 15:43:54 -0800 (PST)

Just be sure to stop at the gun rental place at the airport on the way in, 
this is Texas :-)

Ole J. Jacobsen 
Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
Cisco Systems
Tel: +1 408-527-8972   GSM: +1 415-370-4628
E-mail: [email-masked]  URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 02:03:24 +0100

...

> so is
> there a problem in walking about in this area of Dallas at this time  of 
> year?

Possibly being arrested for not burning enough petroleum?

Seriously, taxis may be necessary once in a while.

>   joint, eat, and get back.

There are supposed to be multiple lunch options close by. So no, we
won't be extending the break.

    Brian

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 18:25:51 -0800

> However, to be constructive, I would like to suggest adding two yes or 
> no questions to the next meeting questionnaire :
> 
> A.) Do you feel that the venue chosen for the meeting was too remote, in 
> terms of accessibility of restaurants, bars, your or other hotels, etc. ? >
> B.) (If "A" is answered yes.) Would having another IETF meeting in a site
> that is similarly remote make it less likely that you would attend ? >

Asking questions like this could be quite useful.

The challenge is in making sure that the right people get asked.

If the questions are asked of people who already attended the meeting, then the 
sampling is of people with the resources to accommodate the current style of 
meeting arrangement.

While some might grouse about one characteristic or another of the current 
choices, the questionnaire will not serve to understand the needs of people who 
are *unable to attend* IETF meetings because of current costs, due to 
remoteness, hotel fees, or the like.

(By the way, the "what will make it less likely you will attend" type of 
question is often interesting to ask, but is usually not a good predictor of 
actual behavior.)

d/
-- 

Dave Crocker