Subject: Re: In Memoriam IETF web page

From: [email-masked] (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 15:03:58 -0400 (EDT)

>> Not that I object to the creation of such a construct - far from it
    >> ..
    >> So it's not a replacement for a Hall of Fame, which people might read,
    >> or scan through, in its entirety. 

    > From: Scott Brim <[email-masked]>

    > you're assuming that being remembered on an IETF wiki should be an
    > exclusive award.

    > From: Theodore Ts'o <[email-masked]>

    > Would you consider a war memorial a "phone book"? ... Just make it a
    > list, with the most recently passed at the top of the list.

You both seem to have completely missed the point of my message, so let me
re-state it more explicitly.

When I said "Not that I object to the creation of such a construct" (i.e.
Scott's suggested memorial wiki), I assumed that that made it perfectly clear
that I _wasn't_ against the concept of some sort of encompassing
listing/memorial.

So when I went on to say "it's not a replacement for a Hall of Fame", I
assumed that people would understand (given the above point) that I was
positing that i) such a HoF would _necessarily_ be a separate construct from a
memorial, and ii) that I saw the use/need for such a separate HoF.

I.e. (to be even more redundantly explicit) one could in theory have either
the memorial, the HoF, or both, or neither.

I make (and made) no statement about the memorial - as I said, 'I don't object
to such a construct'. More explicitly, if people want to do that, that's fine
with me. If they don't, that's fine with me too.

But I still feel a mild level of need for a IETF HoF to recognize, and keep
prominent (for new members) the memory of past IETFers whose contributions
are worthy of recognition, but who probably don't rise to the level needed
for more major honours (e.g. the ISOC Internet Hall of Fame).

Several have been named in this discussion.

	Noel

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 15:11:46 -0400

> for more major honours (e.g. the ISOC Internet Hall of Fame).

Since ISOC recently initiated its own Hall of Fame effort, how would the 
IETF version be different and why?

d/

-- 
  Dave Crocker
  Brandenburg InternetWorking
  bbiw.net

---

From: Theodore Ts'o <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 15:45:45 -0400

> for more major honours (e.g. the ISOC Internet Hall of Fame).

Do we need to wait until someone who has made significant contribution
to have passed away before we recognize their contributions?  Many
other organizations give awards out to people while they are still
alive to receive the Usenix Flame Award, or the ACM Turing Award, or
whatever.

I wonder if we are conflating the concept of a memorial and a Hall of
Fame because many of the more deserving recipients that might deserve
recognition and would be awards that would have to be given
posthumously.

					- Ted

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From: Steve Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 16:25:04 -0400

After watching the traffic on this, I'm thinking a memorial page is perhaps not the first place to focus attention.  Instead, write a memorial RFC for each person you think made a significant contribution to the IETF.  The RFC Editorial process will provide some vetting on quality.  Use Informational, Historic(!) or create a new class.

The memorial page can then list those who have memorial RFCs written for them.

Steve

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From: Scott Brim <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 16:34:15 -0400

> The memorial page can then list those who have memorial RFCs written for them.

<like>

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From: Lixia Zhang <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 13:50:19 -0700

> After watching the traffic on this, I'm thinking a memorial page is perhaps not the first place to focus attention.  Instead, write a memorial RFC for each person you think made a significant contr…

like this idea, with a new category.

> The memorial page can then list those who have memorial RFCs written for them.

or we no longer need such a page, just an index to RFCs in this category.

Lixia

PS: Noel mentioned a few old names, like Licklider (maybe less than handful people on this list knew him), or Coya (unclear whether more people showing at Atlanta know the name, or the other way around) -- life moves forward fast, history fading away quickly, if we dont make an effort to put it in record.

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From: Dick Franks <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 22:47:35 +0100

> The memorial page can then list those who have memorial RFCs written for them.

OBITWG will need a charter, chair and mailing list.

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From: Turchanyi Geza <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 00:35:03 +0200

Dick and Steve,

On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 11:47 PM, Dick Franks <[email-masked]> wrote:

> > After watching the traffic on this, I'm thinking a memorial page is
> perhaps not the first place to focus attention.  Instead, write a memorial
> RFC for each person you think made a significant contribution to the IETF.
>  The RFC Editorial process will provide some vetting on quality.  Use
> Informational, Historic(!) or create a new class.
> >

I like Steve's idea, however, not exactly like the idea to set up a
permanent working group. Perhaps it would be better to form a "working
group" case by case, each "wg" focusing only on the merits of one
individual. However, I am not sure, that a wg would be a right form, anyhow,

I would prefer individual submissions, may be more than one
submission/person.

Géza
(author of a book about heros of networking in Hungary)

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From: Christian Huitema <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 00:35:38 +0000

Memorials are for the living. The dead typically have ceased to care.

I don't know what a simple listing will achieve. The "war monuments" that Ted mention sort of educate the living by reminding them of the massive sacrifices that wars cause. Just listing a bunch of names will not help all that much. After all, most of these names are already listed in the RFC record.

A memorial RFC has more potential. A bit like what the catholic Church does by publishing the "life of the saints." The results could be interesting.

________________________________________
From: [email-masked] [[email-masked]] on behalf of Steve Crocker [[email-masked]]
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 1:25 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: In Memoriam IETF web page -- a modest proposal

Steve

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From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:30:34 -0500

a friend suggested privately an article in the ietf journal when someone
has died.  this seems a no-brainer.  and it is archived.

i will not indulge in the swamp of attempting to codify who writes it
and how.  if the ietf journal editor(s) can not be trusted, replace
them.  sheesh!

randy