Subject: "Archived-At" headers

From: [email-masked] (Dale R. Worley)
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 15:39:36 -0500 (EST)

I've noticed that recently messages to the Ietf mailing list have been
sprouting "Archived-At" headers.  This seems to be a great
convenience.  But when I attempted to use one of these links,
http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/rvA1yLD7Ds2BAxWYv3iN1ONAxJs
it turned out not to be what I expected -- it contained the message,
but none of the threading that I've learned to love in IETF mail
archives.

Which is all rather odd, since there *is* a URL that goes to the
"real" archive, and does give access to the threading:
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg86465.html
Why is that URL not put into the Archived-At header?

Though to put the shoe on the other foot, I notice that the *former*
archive will show me the full headers of the message if I want, but
the latter archive won't.

Dale

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From: Bjoern Hoehrmann <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 23:02:42 +0100

>the latter archive won't.

I assume there are some technical reasons, Henrik Levkowetz (copied)
might be able to comment.
-- 
Björn Höhrmann · mailto:[email-masked] · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de
Am Badedeich 7 · Telefon: +49(0)160/4415681 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de
25899 Dagebüll · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 15:44:24 +0100

Hi Björn, Dale,

>>but none of the threading that I've learned to love in IETF mail

Right.  However, updating the single-message view is on the to-do list.

>>Why is that URL not put into the Archived-At header?

2 reasons:

  * That URL goes to the old archives, not to the new archives
    at mailarchive.ietf.org.  We're aiming at phasing out the old
    archives once it's been established that the new service is
    solid.

  * That url will break if for some reason the archive pages have to
    be re-generated due to later inclusion of list messages which didn't
    originally make it into the archive for one reason or another.  It's
    happened a few times, and the way MHonArc generates the web pages
    guarantees breakage if a dropped message has to be added.  This is not
    the case with the current Archived-At headers, which use a hash generated
    by hashing Message-ID and list acronym, and is independent of any particular
    sequence or ordering of messages in the list archive.

>>the latter archive won't.

Yes.  The latter (the old MHonArc archive) only includes some selected
headers in what's made available in the web page; one of many deficiencies
the new archive software aim to fix.

> might be able to comment.

I hope the information above helps.

Best regards,

	Henrik

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2014 04:07:30 +1300

Henrik,

I find the new archive highly inconvenient for reviewing a thread
or a chronological sequence on a given list. This can be done
at glance with the old archives with one line per message. With
the new one, it's matter of figuring what filter to set up. I have
found it *much* harder to find a particular thread than with the
old archive.

Please consider providing a subject-threaded and a topic-threaded
view of a single list into the new archive. We definitely need
a view equivalent to this one for every list:
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/apps-discuss/current/maillist.html

A generalised search tool does not provide the same convenience.

Also it would be handy to have a way to download a raw archive.

Regards
   Brian

---

From: Bjoern Hoehrmann <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 16:22:22 +0100

>Also it would be handy to have a way to download a raw archive.

ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-mail-archive has all the mbox files.
-- 
Björn Höhrmann · mailto:[email-masked] · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de
Am Badedeich 7 · Telefon: +49(0)160/4415681 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de
25899 Dagebüll · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 16:47:03 +0100

Hi Brian,

> found it *much* harder to find a particular thread than with the

Ok.  I thought we'd provided for this, but if what we've done isn't good
enough, we may need to do something more about it.

The intention was that the 'Group by Thread' button above the list of
messages, to the left of the search field, should provide a thread view.

However, I find that for the main IETF list, getting a thread-sorted
view is unbearably slow, while it works OK for the WG lists I've just
checked.  Personally I find that I still miss some kind of indication
of where each thread starts, though.

> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/apps-discuss/current/maillist.html

That's the date/time sorted view of the old archive.  If I in the new
archive (taking the long route here, to make sure that my assumptions
are explicit ) go to the main page:

  https://mailarchive.ietf.org

and click on 'browse' underneath the search field, I get to the page
listing all the list archives:

  https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/

Here I click on the list in your example, 'apps-discuss', which gives
me a (by default) date-sorted view of the apps-discuss list, where I
see a list of the latest messages for apps-discuss.  I can scroll the
message list pane, to see earlier messages, and also expand the list
page to show a larger number of messages at one time.  (There's a bug
which doen't fill the list pane fully if you expand the size beyond the
preloaded list entries, but this will be fixed shortly.)

I've enclosed a screen capture image to illustrate what I see at this
point.

> A generalised search tool does not provide the same convenience.

Agreed; it was our intention to provide also thread-grouped views,
and the list date-ordered view I described above.

> Also it would be handy to have a way to download a raw archive.

This should be available from the 'Export' dropdown in the upper right-
hand corner, in both mbox and (gzipped tar) Maildir format; if used for
an unfiltered list view it should export the list archive; if used with
a search it should export the search results.

Best regards,

	Henrik

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2014 06:35:49 +1300

(Since this affects everybody, I've kept it on [email-masked],
but feel free to switch to [email-masked] if you prefer.)

> of where each thread starts, though.

Yes, and searching for a thread when you remember the approximate
date and the topic, but not the actual text in the Subject, is
not easy. With the old archive you can page down quite quickly
and do a quick scan of the Subject headers.
> I've enclosed a screen capture image to illustrate what I see at this

Thanks, that's good to know. I compared results from the new tool at
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=ipv6
and the old tool at
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipv6/current/maillist.html

With default font size, I get more messages per screen with the
old tool, and I get the senders' screen names rather than their
email addresses.

However, the main thing I lack with the new tool is the "Next Page"
button that allows me to jump back in time by a reasonable quantum.
If the new tool had "Back one month" and "Back one year" buttons
to supplement "Past month" and "Past year", I would be much happier.
(Probably corresponding "Forward" buttons would be needed too.)

> a search it should export the search results.

OK; the only thing is that on my screen, the Export button is obscured
behind the results window. So I didn't even know it was there ;-)

Getting back to Bjoern's original point, I think it would be
valuable if the page for an individual message include a link
back into the search mechanism (not just the sign in link).

Anyway - thanks for all the work on the new tool. I'm sure
it will end up being very valuable.

    Brian
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>

---

From: Robert Sparks <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 09:29:32 -0500

inline -

> Also it would be handy to have a way to download a raw archive.
In the new tool, you should also be able to select all messages (or the 
results of any search) and export them into mbox or maildir formats.
The export button is in the upper right corner.

RjS

---

From: t.p. <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 09:59:13 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Henrik Levkowetz" <[email-masked]>
To: "Brian E Carpenter" <[email-masked]>
Cc: "Ryan Cross" <[email-masked]>; "Bjoern Hoehrmann"
<[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 3:47 PM
 Hi Brian,
> > found it *much* harder to find a particular thread than with the

<snip>

Henrik

That screen capture image is most revealing; it shows just how different
a view I am getting from you.

I suspect that this facility cannot cope with my IE6 web browser, in
which case, it would be nice for the html to check that the browser is
of an adequate level, whatever that might be, and tell the user when it
is not.  Many websites do this (and, with the imminent end of support
for XP and 20% of the world still using XP, I expect that the response
of 'Update Your Software' will become an increasing irritant to the
world at large:-(.

The results, in this case, are varied.  The 'Export' button can overlay
the 'Filter by'.  The list of 'Filter by From' can contain hundreds of
items.  One mail can be displayed in detail but with a single character
per line overlaying the list of e-mails and spilling down off the bottom
of the screen.

Tom Petch

---

From: Bjoern Hoehrmann <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 14:01:26 +0100

>of 'Update Your Software' will become an increasing irritant to the

If we take the Web as 25 years old, then Internet Explorer 6 is part of
the first half of the Web's existance. You are 13 years and five major
revisions behind and have reasonable alternatives available; you should
not expect constant reminders.
-- 
Björn Höhrmann · mailto:[email-masked] · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de
Am Badedeich 7 · Telefon: +49(0)160/4415681 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de
25899 Dagebüll · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/

---

From: "Eggert, Lars" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 14:09:44 +0000

> not expect constant reminders.

+1

IE6 is now less than 0.25% of web requests. Adding any sort of support for it is pointless.

http://stats.wikimedia.org/archive/squid_reports/2014-01/SquidReportClients.htm

Lars

---

From: t.p. <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 16:54:39 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bjoern Hoehrmann" <[email-masked]>
To: "t.p." <[email-masked]>
Cc: "Henrik Levkowetz" <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 1:01 PM
> not expect constant reminders.

I don't  - I just like guidance on what to upgrade to e.g will XP stop
working in April when it goes out of currency?

Tom Petch

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 09:17:59 +1300

> IE6 is now less than 0.25% of web requests. Adding any sort of support for it is pointless.

Agreed, but on the other hand, using only a simple subset of HTML
may make a lot of sense for a variety of reasons. However, that
probably belongs on the IAOC Revamp thread.

    Brian

---

From: "John Levine" <[email-masked]>
Date: 14 Mar 2014 20:43:34 -0000

>working in April when it goes out of currency?

No, but they'll stop fixing security bugs, so you'll fairly soon be
pwn3d.

Perhaps you could splurge on a £200 Windows 7 laptop, or check out
the wonders of Ubuntu.

R's,
John

---

From: Douglas Otis <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 14:04:19 -0700

On Mar 14, 2014, at 1:43 PM, John Levine <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Perhaps you could splurge on a �200 Windows 7 laptop, or check out
> the wonders of Ubuntu.

Dear Levine,

Wine is getting better. :^) 

Windows 7 is not in production, so average users may have a harder time finding Windows 7 still on the shelf.  Many will likely opt for a third-party start menu add-on for Windows 8.1 or Windows 8 Pro with a downgrade as a means to avoid unfriendly tiles which may also require a hardware upgrade.  A real concern is the vast majority industrial controls such as ATMs using Windows XP.  It seems this somewhat hidden segment of the market lacks effective incentives.

Regards,
Douglas Otis

---

From: David Morris <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 14:57:38 -0700 (PDT)

> probably belongs on the IAOC Revamp thread.

I don't care about IE6 per se, but I do care about the heavy
footprint impact of 'fancy' browser based applications. Minimization of
the complexity is an important goal in my opinion.

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 05:24:45 -0400

--On Friday, March 14, 2014 20:43 +0000 John Levine
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>> I don't  - I just like guidance on what to upgrade to e.g
>> will XP stop working in April when it goes out of currency?
> 
> No, but they'll stop fixing security bugs, so you'll fairly
> soon be pwn3d.
> 
> Perhaps you could splurge on a ?200 Windows 7 laptop, or check
> out the wonders of Ubuntu.

--On Friday, March 14, 2014 14:04 -0700 Douglas Otis
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>  A real concern is the vast majority industrial controls such
> as ATMs using Windows XP.  It seems this somewhat hidden
> segment of the market lacks effective incentives.

John and Doug,

It is not clear to me that this is a useful topic for the IETF
list, but...

I'm deeply sympathetic to Microsoft's issues with trying to
maintain an old operating system that has a well-deserved
reputation for being bug- and security-hole-ridden (albeit not
as bad as some of its predecessors).  At the same time, some of
us have a strong preference for machines in the class most
recently known as "netbooks" -- screens in the 7 - 9 inch range,
maybe stretching to 10 or 10.1, but no larger; weight under 1 Kg
including power supply "bricks"; real (as distinct from
chicklet, touch/promimity, or onscreen keyboards), long battery
life; etc.  Because they have tended to be a little underpowered
for the fancy graphics and other demands of Windows from Vista
forward, my recollection is that those machines were shipping
with XP well into 2010 and probably into 2011.  So they are not
quite as ancient as some of the correspondence implies.  More
important, there are, as far as I know, no replacements: the
Ultrabooks (and the smallest Mac) are larger, heavier, and don't
provide the battery life.  Windows 7 and 8 (even Win 7 Starter)
simply won't run acceptably on that range of machines.

So it isn't just the embedded machines... or being too cheap to
buy a Win 7 (or 8) laptop.

   john

---

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 12:03:21 +0000

>!Perhaps you could splurge on a �200 Windows 7 laptop, or check out
> the wonders of Ubuntu.

Asus F102BA gets my vote

---

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 12:08:01 +0000

Again, the Asus F102BA gets my vote.
shipping now.

***

   john

---

From: t.p. <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 12:44:50 +0000

---- Original Message -----
From: "John Levine" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 8:43 PM
> Perhaps you could splurge on a �200 Windows 7 laptop, or check out

I do seem to have a 100% success rate at asking questions that get an
answer to a different question. I am familiar with the actions that
Microsoft are taking over XP; they do an excellent job of keeping their
users informed of their actions.

Unlike the IETF:-(

What I was trying to ask was whether or not the IETF website would still
be accessible post April 8th, or will the website developers take
advantage of the actions of Microsoft to 'enhance' the website such that
XP is rendered useless?  Some websites are doing just that but they are
giving fair warning.  On the other hand, the TLS list has one e-mail
saying that 20% of their users are on XP so they will go on supporting
it (the TLS list was sort of suggesting that XP was quaint, old and so
the limitations it imposed on security could then be ignored).

Tom Petch

---

From: joel jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:27:32 -0700

> including power supply "bricks"; real (as distinct from

John,

I've got an asus eee of the second or third generation right here. I
don't much care for existential ennui about newly unsupported operating
systems, what I run is my business frankly. It runs ie8/current firefox
and chrome without drama.  I'm not sure that my expectations about what
constitutes a functional internet connected personal computer are
closely tied to what os it runs.

---

From: [email-masked] (Martin Rex)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 00:40:07 +0100 (CET)

Eggert, Lars wrote:
> Bjoern Hoehrmann <[email-masked]> wrote:

Using IE6 to test a web page is perfectly reasonable.

If it doesn't work in IE6, it uses more complex/esoteric features
than what is necessary and should be used in the first place.

The server obviously fails the golden IETF rule "be conservative
in what you send out" (as HTML) and the server ought to be fixed.

-Martin

---

From: [email-masked] (Dale R. Worley)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 16:09:58 -0400

> From: [email-masked] (Martin Rex)
> 

A good rule of thumb is "Can it be used with Lynx?"  That tells you
whether the window-dressing has become mandatory.

Dale