Subject: Saturday as start day

From: Alissa Cooper <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 08:34:17 -0400

Hi all,

Based on a suggestion from Paul Hoffman, the IESG believes it would be beneficial to denote the official start of IETF meetings to be on Saturday rather than Sunday, starting with IETF 100. We believe this would be sensible given that events such as the hackathon and code sprint start on Saturday, and may make it easier for some participants to get travel approval to attend those events. This change would be reflected in the dates posted on the IETF web site and sent out in email announcements. We are not proposing any changes in terms of the scheduling of any meeting-related events, the full availability of the meeting network starting on Sunday, the opening of on-site registration, or the meeting fee.

If you have feedback about this change, please send it to [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>, or exceptionally to [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>, by July 5, 2017.

Thanks,
The IESG

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From: Bob Hinden <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 15:46:57 +0300

Alissa,

> On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:34 PM, Alissa Cooper <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 

I think this is a fine idea, essentially formalizing what has happened informally.  I suspect once in effect it will push the network to be deployed earlier, but given current Saturday events, that was also probably going to happen at some point.

Thanks,
Bob

> If you have feedback about this change, please send it to [email-masked], or exceptionally to [email-masked], by July 5, 2017.
>

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From: "Andrew G. Malis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:51:30 -0400

I agree, this is an excellent idea.

Cheers,
Andy

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Bob Hinden <[email-masked]> wrote:

> > Based on a suggestion from Paul Hoffman, the IESG believes it would be
> beneficial to denote the official start of IETF meetings to be on Saturday
> rather than Sunday, starting with IETF 100. We believe this would be
> sensible given that events such as the hackathon and code sprint start on
> Saturday, and may make it easier for some participants to get travel
> approval to attend those events. This change would be reflected in the
> dates posted on the IETF web site and sent out in email announcements. We
> are not proposing any changes in terms of the scheduling of any
> meeting-related events, the full availability of the meeting network
> starting on Sunday, the opening of on-site registration, or the meeting fee.
> >
>
> I think this is a fine idea, essentially formalizing what has happened
> informally.  I suspect once in effect it will push the network to be
> deployed earlier, but given current Saturday events, that was also probably
> going to happen at some point.
>
> Thanks,
> Bob
>
>
>
> > If you have feedback about this change, please send it to [email-masked],
> or exceptionally to [email-masked], by July 5, 2017.
> >
>
>

---

From: Christian Huitema <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 06:53:27 -0700

> I think this is a fine idea, essentially formalizing what has happened informally.  I suspect once in effect it will push the network to be deployed earlier, but given current Saturday events, that…
Matching reality is always a fine idea. But there might be a problem
with that reality...
>> If you have feedback about this change, please send it to [email-masked], or exceptionally to [email-masked], by July 5, 2017.
The problem is that we now are expected to have work going non stop from
Saturday to Friday. 7 full days. Maybe I am just old, but that does not
look healthy.

-- Christian Huitema

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From: Thomas Nadeau <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:56:51 -0400

It can also pose interesting issues pertaining to travel.

	—Tom

> On Jun 21, 2017:9:53 AM, at 9:53 AM, Christian Huitema <[email-masked]> wrote:
>

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From: Tim Chown <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 15:01:08 +0100

> On 21 Jun 2017, at 14:56, Thomas Nadeau <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 

If it’s purely a change to help people get visas and travel approval to attend Saturday events, esp. the hackathon, great. No-one’s travel plans are changed, I think?

If WG meetings start creeping into the weekend, I’d agree!

Tim

---

From: "Livingood, Jason" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 14:39:15 +0000

>>> I think this is a fine idea, essentially formalizing what has happened informally.  I suspect once in effect it will push the network to be deployed earlier, but given current Saturday events, th…

+1

This is a good move IMO.

Jason

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From: "Andrew G. Malis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 10:39:40 -0400

Christian,

Alissa clearly said that there’s no change to the schedule, this is solely
to help attendees get visas and travel approval when they want to
participate in the hackathon and code sprint.

Cheers,
Andy

---

From: "John Levine" <[email-masked]>
Date: 21 Jun 2017 16:30:33 -0000

>Matching reality is always a fine idea. But there might be a problem

My only concern is that if the announcement says it starts Saturday,
people will take that as permission to start scheduling stuff on the
preceding Friday, "the day before".

I'm thinking of weasel wording, e.g., pre-meeting activities on Saturday,
meeting Sunday-Friday.

R's,
John

PS: See any ICANN meeting calendar to see what I mean.

---

From: Lee Howard <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 13:17:45 -0400

On 6/21/17, 9:53 AM, "ietf on behalf of Christian Huitema"
<[email-masked] on behalf of [email-masked]> wrote:

>>>beneficial to denote the official start of IETF meetings to be on
>>>Saturday rather than Sunday, starting with IETF 100. We believe this
>>>would be sensible given that events such as the hackathon and code
>>>sprint start on Saturday, and may make it easier for some participants
>>>to get travel approval to attend those events. This change would be
>>>reflected in the dates posted on the IETF web site and sent out in
>>>email announcements. We are not proposing any changes in terms of the
>>>scheduling of any meeting-related events, the full availability of the
>>>meeting network starting on Sunday, the opening of on-site
>>>registration, or the meeting fee.
>>>

That’s already what many of us do, with 12-16 hour days, following our
regular work week the previous week, and slipping actual travel time in
between other work.

It’s not that anybody expects me to work that amount of time, it’s just
that that’s the amount of work I need to get done during IETF weeks. Many
times I’ve had people want to schedule hours-long meetings on Sunday
“before” IETF, but I have IETF commitments that day. So this updating the
description to match reality.

Having said that, I’ll argue my own point: are the Saturday-Sunday events
actually IETF activities? If “the work of the IETF” is just the set of
stuff contained in WGs and maybe BoFs, then the meeting is Monday-Friday.
If the Hackathon, Code Sprint, Tutorials, IEPG, and receptions are IETF
activities, then the meeting is Saturday-Friday, though many people may
elect not to arrive until later.

Lee

---

From: Benjamin Kaduk <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 12:59:27 -0500

> description to match reality.

I don't think anyone is disputing that this is updating the
description to match reality.  I believe Christian's question is
an attempt to prompt us to reassess that reality and its
sustainability, which seems a fair question to consider.

-Ben

---

From: Jeff Tantsura <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 11:09:06 -0700

Alissa,

I support the idea, for many of us this is just formalization of what we have been doing anyway.

It could help some folks who need to justify flight/hotel at earlier date to their management. 

Cheers,

Jeff

From: ietf <[email-masked]> on behalf of Alissa Cooper <[email-masked]>
Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 05:34
To: IETF Discussion <[email-masked]>
Subject: Saturday as start day

Hi all,

Thanks,
The IESG

---

From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 19:58:15 +0000

I am very much in favor it. It will help alleviate confusion people have had in the past regarding the dates of the hackathon, especially people who are new to the IETF.

Cheers,
Charles

From: ietf <[email-masked]> on behalf of Jeff Tantsura <[email-masked]>
Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 11:09 AM
To: Alissa Cooper <[email-masked]>, "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Saturday as start day

Alissa,

Cheers,
Jeff

Hi all,

If you have feedback about this change, please send it to [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>, or exceptionally to [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>, by July 5, 2017.

Thanks,
The IESG

---

From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 09:00:47 +0900

>>The problem is that we now are expected to have work going non stop
>>from Saturday to Friday. 7 full days. Maybe I am just old, but that
>>does not look healthy.
> I believe Christian's question is an attempt to prompt us to reassess
> that reality and its sustainability, which seems a fair question to
> consider.

and it would help if the *quality* of the week was higher.  time and
again, i have found the wg meeting to be a formalism, 25% process and
72% slideshow for those who need a preso slot to get travel approval.
for serious content, we retreat into side meetings, bar bofs, and
off-campus meals to have actual *discussion*.  and why endure extreme
travel if not to have discussion instead of process and powerpoint?

but ignore my whining.  i do not know any meeting of more than a hundred
which is mostly protein.  i.e. i have no model for 'success.'

randy

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From: George Michaelson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 11:41:10 +1000

I would support this, if we remove Friday from the official calendar
of meetings. Because then,  I could expect to get back a weekend,
where currently 14+ hr flights in and out mean I lose two weekends per
IETF, I would lose only one.

So whilst I think 'desire/reality' has applied here and what you have
done formalizes what we know has happened, I would like the extension
act which you can't yet do: give us back one day please.

-george

PS the last time I raised this was probably 10 years ago. There is a
strong cultural push not to work specifically on Saturday, which I
understand, and I also understand there is a strong cultural push not
to work or travel on friday or saturday which I understand. I just
don't belong to those cultures, but I do understand this is a problem
for some people. I think my proposal is actually strictly neutral on
that, but arguably not.

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From: Jari Arkko <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 16:09:29 +0300

I think it is a good move, closest description of reality. Do it.

As for the other topics raised later in this thread, the 7 day
meeting has been tiresome at least for me. I don’t think we
can effectively work for 7 long days. Take a day off when your
most important working group is not meeting. If you
find that you’re scheduled to do something in every slot,
you are probably either doing something wrong or your
title is an area director :-)

Jari

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From: Tobias Gondrom <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 13:39:13 +0800

I also agree. This is good idea.
(with my individual hat on... ;-) )
Best regards, Tobias

On June 21, 2017 8:46:57 PM GMT+08:00, Bob Hinden <[email-masked]> wrote:
>> Based on a suggestion from Paul Hoffman, the IESG believes it would
>be beneficial to denote the official start of IETF meetings to be on
>deployed earlier, but given current Saturday events, that was also
>probably going to happen at some point.
>
>Thanks,
>Bob
>
>
>
>> If you have feedback about this change, please send it to
>[email-masked], or exceptionally to [email-masked], by July 5, 2017.
>> 

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

---

From: Eric Burger <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 17:03:48 -0400

On the one hand, I won’t be working on Saturday.

On the other hand, as someone on a limited budget (read university) paying for someone else (read student) to go to the IETF, that Saturday night stay has a big impact on airfare.

So long as we don’t have Saturday creep in as a ‘regular’ IETF working day, I’m for the change.

> On Jun 23, 2017, at 1:39 AM, Tobias Gondrom <[email-masked]> wrote:
>

---

From: "tom p." <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 09:28:43 +0100

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Burger" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2017 10:03 PM

On the other hand, as someone on a limited budget (read university)
paying for someone else (read student) to go to the IETF, that Saturday
night stay has a big impact on airfare.

So long as we don’t have Saturday creep in as a ‘regular’ IETF working
day, I’m for the change.

<tp>

Eric

I am not sure which way round your comment on budgets is intended but
for me, staying over for a Saturday night makes the transatlantic
airfare much cheaper so I always travel on Saturday even if there is
nothing to do on Sunday (except deal with jetlag).

Friday travel is busy and congested, especially next month in the
holiday season, so I would never travel on Friday.

Tom Petch

be beneficial to denote the official start of IETF meetings to be on
Saturday rather than Sunday, starting with IETF 100. We believe this
would be sensible given that events such as the hackathon and code
sprint start on Saturday, and may make it easier for some participants
to get travel approval to attend those events. This change would be
reflected in the dates posted on the IETF web site and sent out in email
announcements. We are not proposing any changes in terms of the
scheduling of any meeting-related events, the full availability of the
meeting network starting on Sunday, the opening of on-site registration,
or the meeting fee.