Subject: Re: [Int-area] Access to 802.16 Archives

From: Bernard Aboba <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 09:34:44 -0700 (PDT)

>Bernard is actually one of the "right people" to tell me if I'm 
>MISunderstanding, but my understanding is that the IEEE handles their 
>"work in progress" by making it available to people who are interested in 
>the work as work in progress, but not putting it up for unlimited 
>downloading until it is approved.

To enable IETF WGs or BOFs to gain access to IEEE 802 archives as 
required, the IEEE 802 policy is to enable IEEE 802 WG chairs to grant 
access either based on their own needs, or based on a request from an IETF 
WG (or BOF) Chair.  The policy is described below:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file41.pdf

As a result, a BOF Chair can request archive access in order to enable 
review of specifications relevant to the BOF.  However, in this particular 
case, the Chair of IEEE 802.16, Roger Marks has requested IETF review and 
has already granted archive access:
http://ieee802.org/16/liaison/docs/L80216-05_039.pdf 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file116.pdf

With respect who can have access, the IETF has made it clear to IEEE 
802 that since the IETF has no concept of membership, that granting 
archive access to any WG implies granting access to "anyone who wants it." 

>I've only had experience with IEEE 802.1, 802.3, 802.11, and 802.17, but 
>the chairs of each of these groups has been THRILLED to provide access 
>information to anyone who was planning to read it and either (1) comment 
>back to IEEE, or (2) work on IP mappings, SNMP MIB bindings, etc. based 
>on their work-in-progress (with the understanding, of course, that current 
>dtafts have no more standing in IEEE 802 than they have in IETF working 
>groups).

Under the rules, IEEE 802 is bound to address a ballot comment from any 
individual.  This means that any IETF participant can submit a ballot 
without needing to attend meetings, join IEEE, attain voting rights, etc. 
Also, an IETF WG working on a related topic (IP mappings, SNMP MIBs, etc.) 
can request access to work in progress. 

>So, IEEE 802 seems to be a tiny bit less "open" than the IETF, when it 
>comes to "work in progress", but when a completed standard is added to 
>the http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/, it's available for free download by 
>anyone, just like an RFC. I've worked with "closed" standards 
>groups/industry consortia ("please deposit $30K to see this spec"), and 
>IEEE isn't one of the "closed" ones.

Given the access that IEEE 802 has provided to its standards and 
work in progress, there is no situation in which an IETF participant should 
be precluded from obtaining a relevant IEEE 802 document free of charge. 
Of course, for this to work, IETF WG and BOF chairs need to make use of 
the access that has been granted.  Background on the policies and 
procedures that are in place is available here:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-iab-ieee-802-rel-01.txt

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From: Bernard Aboba <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 11:39:37 -0700 (PDT)

> Maybe future versions of
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-iab-ieee-802-rel-01.txt should
> make amend the current text. 

Since the IETF has no notion of membership, either within WGs or the IETF 
at large, attempts to determine the "legitimacy" of WG members is resting 
on thin ice.  The IETF/IEEE 802 relationship document deliberately makes 
it clear that access is to be provided to anyone in order to establish this 
as a fundamental principle of the IETF/IEEE 802 relationship.  I think 
that principle is worth fighting for. 

How is a WG chair to know whether someone is a "legitimate participant" 
or not?  The IETF does not require meeting attendance.  An individual can 
submit comments on an IETF document without even being a member of the WG 
or IETF mailing lists (I do this all the time).  

I'd note that some of the same issues have come up in IEEE 802. 
The Chair of IEEE 802.1 (Tony Jeffree) has stated that since IEEE 802 WGs 
are required to accept ballot comments from anyone regardless of voting 
status or IEEE membership, he considers anyone with an interest in IEEE 
802.1 documents to be eligible for document access.

Overall, there's an important principle at stake here.  The IETF 
requires that documents under discussion be publicly available.  To 
enable open review of IEEE 802 work in progress, we've made it clear to 
IEEE 802 that IETF WG chairs will provide archive access to anyone who asks.  
We've written this into the IETF/IEEE 802 relationship 
document , and asked for IEEE 802 ExComm review, in order to make sure 
that this important IETF principle is accepted by IEEE 802.

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From: Bernard Aboba <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 11:41:11 -0700 (PDT)