Subject: RE: Address allocation schemes (Re: Naming and site-local)

From: "Bound, Jim" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 07:07:11 -0500

> But, what I don't understand is how the use of overlapping 
> site-local addresses on globally-attached networks is any 
> better than NAT.

It is not.  Same problems that NAT has.  And loss of e2e: apps,
security, and mobility for those who only have those SLs.  Not good.

As a note industry will have a lot to say if this is deployed too.   The
education of NAT vs NO NAT is happening as we speak.

Regards,
/jim

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From: "Bound, Jim" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 07:08:05 -0500

I am also of this simple mind.

/jim
[In matters of style, swim with the currents....in matters of principle,
stand like a rock.  - Thomas Jefferson]

---

From: "Michel Py" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:12:53 -0800

Harald,

>> Michel Py wrote:
>> What would be the difference between this and the good
>> old "8K DFZ", except one more digit and that ISPs could
>> get a block matching their size instead of what used to
>> be called a TLA?

> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote:
> Apart from not having any administratively fixed
> boundaries, I haven't seen any need for a difference until
> someone comes along with a genuinely better idea.
> but as I said, I am naive in those matters.

Unless this is 2nd degree humor I do not see what is naive about it.
This is the current vision and has been for a while, or did I miss
something?

Michel.

---

From: "Bound, Jim" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:56:43 -0500

> Er, but I use global addresses every day on good ol' IPv4, 
> within my employer's internal network, and they work just 
> fine when external connectivity is broken. I see no advantage 
> in local addresses here.

Same here for me.  I see not advantage at all and lots of pain.

/jim

---

From: "Bound, Jim" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:57:06 -0500

Totally unacceptable.

/jim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Moore [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:12 AM
> To: Tim Chown
> Cc: IPng
> Subject: Re: Address allocation schemes (Re: Naming and site-local) 
> 
> 
> > I think NATv6 is inevitable, because some site policy makers will 
> > demand it.
> 
> which is why we need to make it very clear that NAT is not 
> acceptable in IPv6.

---

From: Dan Lanciani <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:28:47 -0500 (EST)

Harald Tveit Alvestrand <[email-masked]> wrote:

|--On søndag, november 10, 2002 15:25:56 -0500 Dan Lanciani 
|<[email-masked]> wrote:
|
|> As long as we are stuck with a totally non-scalable address allocation
|> system (remember, provider-based aggregated addressing consumes address
|> space *exponentially* in the number of providers in the service chain)
|> end users need some way to provision local systems with stable addresses.
|> So far, nobody has proposed a viable alternative to scoped addresses.
|
|metro addressing?

Perhaps.  I'd have to hear the details (in particular the costs).

|btw, my current naive prediction of the way the Internet will evolve is 
|that unless new invention occurs, the default-free zone will eventually be 
|flat-routing on the number of ISPs in the world, and that this number will 
|have 5 digits.

Sadly, I think that you are correct, at least to a first approximation.  There
will probably also be a few routes for companies big enough to demand and get
true single-prefix multi-homing (though I guess they could just declare that
they are ISPs).  The rest of us will have to make do without such luxuries.
I suspect that arguments similar to those against application support for
site-locals will render multi-prefix multi-homing less than wonderful.

|stable addresses for the lifetime of your ISP service contract seems like a 
|not too terrible deal,

It's certainly not as good a deal as provider-independent addresses.  The
extent to which the deal is not too terrible would depend on how much you
have to pay for the privilege.

|if renumbering is easy.

easy for the customer as opposed to easy for the ISP...

Michael Thomas <[email-masked]> wrote:

|Harald, 
|
|I think this probably boils down to something
|completely non-technical: do people view IP
|addresses as "addresses" ala street addresses,
|etc, or do they view them as possessions like
|(now) phone numbers and email addresses. Though
|the net was designed for "addresses",

Which net?  IP addresses have always been treated as possessions.  The
big paradigm shift came when they went from being possessions of end
users to possessions of ISPs, with ISPs renting them back to end users.
Remember, even when the provider-allocated aggregation hack was originally
proposed as a temporary work-around for limited memory expandability in
certain routers, the promise was that space so allocated would still belong
to the end user and be portable.  (Supposedly by the time enough people had
switched ISPs to expand the tables the hardware would have caught up.)  That
promise lasted what, two months?  It's a little like the promise of site-
local addressing.

If global/routable IP addresses really worked like street addresses I think
you would see a lot less demand for other stable address space.  People know
that there is a certain overhead associated with a physical move, and switching
IP addresses along with phone numbers, street addresses on business cards, etc.,
would not be a big deal.  But IP addresses like that aren't really available.
It is unreasonable to claim that an IP address is like a street address in the
sense that it tells which ISP you currently "live" at.

|I suspect
|that they are viewed more as possessions which is
|an obvious problem. 

Why is it a problem?

				Dan Lanciani
				ddl@danlan.*com