Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] What is MSism?

From: Jefsey <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2014 15:09:08 +0200

The problem we first face is to use at least 6 lists to discuss the 
same thing under different but crossed perspectives. If we cannot fix 
it, it is likely we will not be able to fix the NTIA removal issue!

At 06:22 07/04/2014, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>(This hasn't happened, but not dissimilar things have happened over 
>both character sets and cryptographic algorithms.)

Except to support orthotypography (e.g. the French language majuscules) :-) !

You are aboslutely correct: this is the difference between people and 
multitude. People can be affiliated and usually are (nations, 
political parties, etc.). Multitude is the aggregation of persons 
retaining their self-determinaton. This is why democracy (people at 
least accept the same constitution that organizes it) is not 
polycracy (people [and their machines]) only accept their own determination.

The whole issue in our debate is to determine if we want to consider 
others as belonging to a democraticaly sovereign community or to a 
polycratic multitude of sovereigns. In other words, if IG 
acknowledges our national laws (we need states), only the 
international law (we need UN) or our free covenants (such as RFCs, 
ICANN contracts, etc.), but who provides arbitration and enforcement? 
Can ICE, or can a foreign Judge, proceed to the seizure of my 
nationally located site.

At 08:05 07/04/2014, Abdussalam Baryun wrote
>People can't be responsible when governments fail even if the people 
>elect the government. People/organisations cannot be responsible for 
>ICANN's fail/success even if they were given time to propose, elect 
>directors, direct, participate, or/and discuss the transition. This 
>transition is mostly under NTIA responsibility, and will end within 
>ICANN responsibility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multitude: "the (fear of the) power 
(potentia) of the multitude is the limit of sovereign power 
(potestas)". I have proposed to experiment the reality of the 
multitude's capacity level as VGN, Host, site, access Masters through 
the HomeRoot (http://dnsa.org/index.php/TopZone) /SuperIANA 
(http://dnsa.org) /Happy-IP experimentation projects that start being 
documented under http://dnsa.org because the only thing all of us 
immediately share is the digital naming space aggregation.

At 12:29 07/04/2014, Vint Cerf wrote:
>The purpose behind the Supporting Organizations had been to parse 
>ICANN stakeholders into mutually orthogonal groups but it is my 
>sense that this is proving awkward because the participants in the 
>ICANN processes have multiple interests that span multiple stakeholder groups.
>
>I continue to believe that the mechanisms are in place and can be 
>exercised to allow ICANN to provide stewardship for the IANA 
>functions and to adapt its own processes to make the 
>multistakeholder model work even better.

Actually ICANN could consider SO as area and the BoD as the IESG, 
except there is no AIB. In my own experience the whole MS mechanism 
as translated from the USG (or other governement) suffers from being 
democratic and not polycratic.

1) an MS open process does not necessarily works as designed. There 
is a trust based attendance. Experienc in IUCG shows that IETF has 
specifically extended to informed users, but the debate has not taken 
off in the proposed manner (talks are bilateral, bilingual, segmented).

2) the MS processes as experienced for years by the ITU, USG, IETF, 
Europe, etc. are within a decentralized and not in a distributed 
framework. What is going to happen when there is a disagreement? A 
fork or fragmentation.  The only solution in this case is a 
reconciliation emergence scheme 
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organized_criticality_control). 
This is my objection to RFC 6852: they have not foreseen a common 
appeal scheme in case of cross SDO conflict, nor of dialog (IAB is in 
chage of liaisons) in case of users dissatisfaction.

These are things the dnsa.org experimentation tries to explore. 
Everyone welcome to join the discussion list (but one do nos discuu
jfc

---

From: Abdussalam Baryun <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 01:22:12 +0100

On Monday, April 7, 2014, Jefsey wrote:

> The problem we first face is to use at least 6 lists to discuss the same
> thing under different but crossed perspectives. If we cannot fix it, it is
> likely we will not be able to fix the NTIA removal issue!

I don't want to fix, I want to change, I don't need to use others
services, I want to make my own service. Those lists are just the
beginning, the internet community/people within societies will make better
opportunities. However, I like the lists' documentation and making history
within our communication (even if we did not fix the problem this
year, believe me it will be influenced through the future as long our
discussions are true).

>> transition is mostly under NTIA responsibility, and will end within ICANN
>> responsibility.
>>
>
> (potentia) of the multitude is the limit of sovereign power (potestas)". I
> have proposed to experiment the reality of the multitude's capacity level
> as VGN, Host, site, access Masters through the HomeRoot (
> http://dnsa.org/index.php/TopZone) /SuperIANA (http://dnsa.org) /Happy-IP
> experimentation projects that start being documented under http://dnsa.orgbecause the only thing all of us immediately share is the digital naming
> space aggregation.

I don't think multitude is a solution. It is not practical. Multitude has
no contracts so it is random work and may have random output.  We need
agreements and procedures within communities for progress in input/output.

We share more important things, which is looking for the best solution, and
that continues work and changes spaces/environments/organisations.

AB

---

From: Jefsey <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2014 04:04:23 +0200

At 02:22 08/04/2014, Abdussalam Baryun wrote:
>I don't think multitude is a solution.

Correct. This is the reality: how people from multitude organize is 
liberty. To do that they need to speak together and therefore 
to  have languages and grammaries. IANA  is TCP/IP's grammary. You 
can take advantage from it as "book", i.e. a site; or as a permanent 
teachin/use, i.e. as a protocol. This is only what I tell Olaf.
jfc