Subject: [lemonade] Draft Minutes

From: Eric Burger <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 20:49:35 -0500

If you want real minutes, we will have to find a real minutes taker...

http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06nov/minutes/lemonade.txt

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From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:09:49 -0800

A few comments:

>  Contents of Profile-bis: Alexey Melnikov proposed adding four items 
> to Profile-bis, and we discussed those at length, particularly SMTP 
> compression (again) and SMTP checkpoint/restart.  Consensus not to 
> add either of those, but to add SASL-IR and in-band notifications.

My notes say that there was some support for adding SMTP compression 
and that the chair suggested/decided to defer any decision on this 
until after the draft was out.
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
Down with categorical imperative!

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From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:55:28 +0100

> until after the draft was out.

That matches my memory, but if anyone volunteered to write such a draft, 
I didn't catch who it was.

I've updated SASL-IR. It's not in the I-D archive yet, but a draft I 
submitted an hour earlier is, so it won't be long now. Still working on 
notify-02. (Something Ray said made me think and sometimes I think 
slowly ;)

Arnt

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From: Alexey Melnikov <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 12:50:09 +0000

> until after the draft was out.

I concur.

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From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:21:12 -0800

At 10:55 AM +0100 11/16/06, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:

>>>   Contents of Profile-bis: Alexey Melnikov proposed adding four 
>>> items  to Profile-bis, and we discussed those at length, 
>>> particularly SMTP  compression (again) and SMTP 
>>> checkpoint/restart.  Consensus not to  add either of those, but 
>>> to add SASL-IR and in-band notifications.
>>
>>  My notes say that there was some support for adding SMTP 
>> compression and that the chair suggested/decided to defer any 
>> decision on this until after the draft was out.
>
>  That matches my memory, but if anyone volunteered to write such a 
> draft, I didn't catch who it was.

It was I :-)

-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
To iterate is human; to recurse, divine.  --Robert Heller

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From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 21:24:00 +0100

>> draft, I didn't catch who it was.

Have fun.

Arnt

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From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 12:49:16 -0800

>>> draft, I didn't catch who it was.

Tony Finch is the actual author, I'm just the editor stuckee to 
resolve open issues, handle administrivia, etc.
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
If there's a possibility that something might be controversial,
then why not eliminate it?
  --Wild Rose, Wis. district administrator, explaining why _Bury
  My Heart at Wounded Knee_ by Dee Brown was removed from schools.

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From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 18:55:10 -0800

My recollection of the EXPUNGED discussion included consensus to use 
VANISHED for both the response name and specifier.
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
There's nothing wrong with me.  Maybe there's something wrong with
the universe.       --'Dr. Beverly Crusher' in ST:TNG _Remember Me_.

FC 1845, and perhaps is such an 
edge case that it isn't worth worrying about.  But if the client does 
resend the RCPT TO commands, perhaps the server could be permitted to 
send updated responses?  Presumably both the client and server have 
held the message in abeyance in the meantime, so both can act on the 
final results.

-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
When news of Alexander Graham Bell's invention reached the
United Kingdom, the chief engineer of the British Post Office
failed to be impressed.  "The Americans," he said loftily,
"have need of the telephone -- but we do not.  We have plenty
of messenger boys..."

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From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 18:55:10 -0800

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From: Eric Burger <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 22:31:39 -0500

Wasn¹t that in IMAPEXT?

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From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 20:11:06 -0800

At 10:31 PM -0500 11/16/06, Eric Burger wrote:

>  Wasn't that in IMAPEXT?

Yes, sorry, brain fade.

-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
The attention span of a computer is only as long as its electrical cord.

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From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 12:49:18 -0800

Sorry, another brain fade (confusing two drafts in the rush of trying 
to complete a lot of stuff before I leave for vacation):

I volunteered to be the editor stuckee for SMTP quickstart, not SMTP 
compression.

I hope Arnt is willing to do the SMTP compression draft as well as 
the IMAP compression draft.

At 9:21 AM -0800 11/16/06, Randall Gellens wrote:

>>>>    Contents of Profile-bis: Alexey Melnikov proposed adding ...
>>>>  ...snip...

-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
Programs that crash have been proven to be less useful than those
that don't.  --Apple Technical Note OV04 (formerly Technote #117)
                developer.apple.com/technotes/ov/ov_04.html

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From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 11:15:39 +0100

> to complete a lot of stuff before I leave for vacation):

Have a good vacation, then ;)

> I hope Arnt is willing to do the SMTP compression draft as well as the 
> IMAP compression draft.

I am, on three conditions: 1. Noone else is. 2. It's clear that the 
draft only goes to RFC if there's WG consensus to. 3. I don't do a -00 
until some of my (five!) Lemonade-related drafts are a little further 
along.

I'm not sure whether I've written about this on the list, or only in 
private email, but I'd better make it clear. I believe that SMTP 
compression is not worth doing in Lemonade, because the win is too 
small to justify a stopgap solution.

The benefit of SMTP compression is O(n*(b+t+a)), where n is the number 
of messages sent, b is the size of the boilerplate (RCPT TO, 
Message-ID, etc), t is the size of what the user types and a is the 
size of whatever bodyparts are appended, if any. My intuition says that 
for lemonade devices, a is almost zero (due to FwD, the lack of 
persistent storage and bandwidth), n is somewhat smaller than for 
desktops (due to the difficulty of typing), and t is much smaller 
(typing again - "Sorry if terse").

Arnt

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From: Tony Finch <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:11:41 +0000

> I volunteered to be the editor stuckee for SMTP quickstart, not SMTP

My current pre-draft is at
http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/~fanf2/hermes/doc/qsmtp/draft-fanf-smtp-quickstart.html

The main problem with it at the moment is complexity. I think some of the
features need to be cut out, though I'm not sure what would be best. As it
stands, QUICKSTART is as efficient as (non-standard) smtps at getting TLS
running, and can get you to MAIL in the client's 3rd packet.

QUICKSTART defines two variants of STARTTLS: a pipelined version, which is
awkward for both the client and the server but which is necessary for
full-speed QUICKSTART, and a simplified version QTLS which saves a little
time and is easier to code with restricted APIs but which limits you to
MAIL in the 4th packet at the earliest. Should both remain or should we
stick with one and if so which one?

Should the AUTH optimization be made mandatory? I note that RFC 4468 fails
to say that it updates RFC 2554 despite the fact that it specifies a
change to AUTH's pipelining behaviour.

QUICKSTART has its own option mechanism which allows future extensions to
define quickstart variants. This could be useful for COMPRESS, for example.

Tony.
-- 
f.a.n.finch  <[email-masked]>  http://dotat.at/
BAILEY: CYCLONIC BECOMING NORTHWESTERLY SEVERE GALE 9 TO VIOLENT STORM 11,
OCCASIONALLY HURRICANE FORCE 12 IN SOUTH, DECREASING 7 TO SEVERE GALE 9 LATER.
HIGH OR VERY HIGH. RAIN OR SQUALLY SHOWERS. MODERATE OR POOR.

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From: Alexey Melnikov <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 18:27:13 +0000

Tony Finch wrote:

>Should the AUTH optimization be made mandatory?
>
Yes, RFC 4468 got approved and IESG didn't notice ;-).

>I note that RFC 4468 fails
Which reminded me. I am updating RFC 2554, so I've added the following 
paragraph:

  When the AUTH command is used together with the [PIPELINING] extension,
  it is considered the last command in a pipelined group of commands.
  The only exception to this rule is when the AUTH command contains
  an initial response for a SASL mechanism that allows client to send
  data first and will complete in one round trip. Two examples of such
  SASL mechanisms are PLAIN [PLAIN] and EXTERNAL [SASL].

Does the new paragraph look alright?

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From: Dave Cridland <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:46:44 +0000

>  SASL mechanisms are PLAIN [PLAIN] and EXTERNAL [SASL].

"and will definitely complete in one round trip", or "and is known to 
complete in one round-trip".

DIGEST-MD5 *might* complete in one round-trip, but might not.

Dave.
-- 
Dave Cridland - mailto:[email-masked] - xmpp:[email-masked]
  - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/
  - http://dave.cridland.net/
Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade

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From: Tony Finch <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:07:03 +0000

>  it is considered the last command in a pipelined group of commands.

I would say "MUST be" rather than "is considered to be" since this is a
requirement on the client.

>  SASL mechanisms are PLAIN [PLAIN] and EXTERNAL [SASL].

Otherwise that looks OK, with Dave's added "definitely".

Tony.
-- 
f.a.n.finch  <[email-masked]>  http://dotat.at/
HUMBER THAMES DOVER WIGHT: SOUTH OR SOUTHEAST 5 TO 7, OCCASIONALLY GALE 8.
MODERATE OR ROUGH. OCCASIONAL RAIN OR SHOWERS. GOOD OCCASIONALLY MODERATE.

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From: Alexey Melnikov <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:50:48 +0000

>requirement on the client.
Done.
Thanks.

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From: Alexey Melnikov <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:56:07 +0000

> complete in one round-trip".

I've used the latter. Thanks!

> DIGEST-MD5 *might* complete in one round-trip, but might not.

Right.