Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v5+

From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 09:57:38 +0000

Hello Ana and Alex: I gave it a try below,

6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks".

Background/Introduction:
------------------------

A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic name of
Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which make
these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things applications.

Those common traits include an optimized radio modulation, a typical deployment
as a simple star topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transmitted
a few times per day at ultra-low speeds and sometimes variable MTUs, and, though
downstream may be supported, a mostly upstream transmission pattern that allows
the devices to spend most of their time in low-energy deep-sleep mode.

This enables a range of several kilometers and a long battery lifetime, possibly
ten years operating on a single coin-cell. This also enables simple and scalable
deployments with low-cost devices and thin infrastructures.

Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and specific
to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the application is
often hard wired to the MAC, leading to siloed deployments that must be managed,
secured and operated individually. Migrating from one LPWA technology to another
implies rebuilding the whole chain.

To unleash the full power of LPWA technologies and their ecosystems, there is a
need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee the inter-working
by introducing a network layer, and enable common components for management and
security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contribute by
providing IPv6 connectivity, and propose technologies to secure the operations
and manage the devices and their gateways.

Description of Working Group:
-----------------------------

The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 connectivity over a selection of
Low-Power Wide-Area technologies, <tech1>, <Tech2> and <Tech3>.

These technologies present similar characteristics of rare and widely unbalanced
over-the-air transmissions, with little capability to alter the frame formats to
accommodate this work, which makes it so that existing IETF work (6lo) cannot be
trivially applied.

The Working Group will leverage cross-participation with the associated set of
stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place corresponds to real demands
and that the proposed solutions are indeed applicable.

The group will produce informational work, for IETF consumption, describing LPWA
technologies and their needs, best practice documents on using IETF technologies
in LPWA networks, and new standard work to optimize IPv6-based communications to
the end device, down to the remote-I/O model where the device is not fully aware
of the whole stack.

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet Area,
Operations and Management Area, and Security Area.

Work Items:
-----------

The group will:

1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating some selected LPWA
technologies. This work will document the common characteristics and highlight
actual needs that the IETF could serve; but it is not an intention to provide a
competitive analysis. It is expected that the information contained therein
originates from and is reviewed by LPWA stakeholders, and that this WG may
leverage the resulting document to suggest new activity in other WGs.

2. Produce best practice documents highlighting potential areas where IETF
technologies may be leveraged; these documents may eventually be published as
Informational RFCs. It is an expectation that the resulting document(s) may
contribute to the interaction with LPWA stakeholders and lead to additional work
in the future. Envisioned topics include security, management, and cross-layer
optimizations.

3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of a CoAP/UDP/IPv6
packet over LPWA. Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a
generic YANG data model to describe the compression, and protocols to install
the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for
the selected technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how the
fields relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any.

4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over LPWA,
either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new Standard
Track document if that is deemed necessary.

Cheers,

Pascal

From: Alexander Pelov [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: jeudi 26 mai 2016 10:01
To: Ana Minaburo <[email-masked]>
Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <[email-masked]>; Mischa Dohler <[email-masked]>; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v5

Hi Ana,

Thanks for the input!

Le 27 avr. 2016 à 10:22, Ana Minaburo <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>> a écrit :

Hello Pascal,

I have some inputs or questions

On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 8:31 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks".

Background/Introduction:
------------------------

A new generation of wireless technologies has emerged under the generic name of
Low-Power Wide-Area (LPWA), with a number of common characteristics which make
these technologies unique and disruptive for Internet of Things applications.

Those common traits include an optimized radio modulation, a typical deployment
as a simple star topology, frame sizes in the order of tens of bytes transmitted
a few times per day, and, though downstream may be supported, a mostly upstream
transmission pattern that allows the devices to spend most of their time in
low-energy deep-sleep mode.

Ana: Is it a good idea to mention that there is a variable MTU ? this will affect the way you make compression and fragmentation.

Thanks for catching this! Some technologies do have varying MTU and we should not forget about this. So yes, I’ll include it in the next version of the charter.

This enables a range of several kilometers and a long battery lifetime, possibly
ten years operating on a single coin-cell. This also enables simple and scalable
deployments with low-cost devices and thin infrastructures.

Those benefits come at a price: the MAC-layer formats are optimized and specific
to each individual technology. There is no network layer and the application is
often hard wired to the MAC, leading to siloed deployments that must be managed,
secured and operated individually. Migrating from one LPWA technology to another
implies rebuilding the whole chain.

To unleash the full power of LPWA technologies and their ecosystems, there is a
need to couple them with other ecosystems that will guarantee the inter-working
by introducing a network layer, and enable common components for management and
security, as well as shared application profiles. The IETF can contribute by
providing IPv6 connectivity, and propose technologies to secure the operations
and manage the devices and their gateways.

Description of Working Group:
-----------------------------

The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 connectivity over a selection of
Low-Power Wide-Area technologies, <tech1>, <Tech2> and <Tech3>.

These technologies present similar characteristics of rare and widely unbalanced
over-the-air transmissions, with little capability to alter the frame formats to
accommodate this work, which makes it so that existing IETF work (6lo) cannot be
trivially applied.

The Working Group will leverage cross-participation with the associated set of
stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place corresponds to real demands
and that the proposed solutions are indeed applicable.

The group will produce informational work, for IETF consumption, describing LPWA
technologies and their needs, best practice documents on using IETF technologies
in LPWA networks, and new standard work to optimize IPv6-based communications to
the end device, down to the remote-I/O model where the device is not fully aware
of the whole stack.

The WG will interface with other appropriate groups in the IETF Internet Area,
Operations and Management Area, and Security Area.

Work Items:
-----------

The group will:

1. Produce an Informational document describing and relating some selected LPWA
technologies. This work will document the common characteristics and highlight
actual needs that the IETF could serve; but it is not an intention to provide a
competitive analysis. It is expected that the information contained therein
originates from and is reviewed by LPWA stakeholders, and that this WG may
leverage the resulting document to suggest new activity in other WGs.

2. Produce best practice documents for security and management, highlighting
potential areas where IETF technologies may be leveraged; these documents may
eventually be published as Informational RFCs. It is an expectation that the
resulting document(s) may contribute to the interaction with LPWA stakeholders
and lead to additional work in the future.

Ana: In this first time we are going to work only in security and management? or we plan also to do BCP for other layers? How about the idea of working in a crosslayer approach and global solutions? do we need to mention it know or for later?

Also an excellent point. One of the issues that we need to address that was suggested by Mischa was the cross-layer ACK optimization. I think that we should at least mention the possibility of producing BCP for the applications also.

Thanks!

Best,
Alexander

3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of a CoAP/UDP/IPv6
packet over LPWA. Considering the extreme constraints, the work will focus on a
generic YANG data model to describe the compression, and protocols to install
the related state at the compression end-points; the work will also include, for
the selected technologies, specific Standard Track documents to describe how the
fields relevant to the decompression are encoded over the air, if any.

4. Produce a document to enable the fragmentation of larger packets over LPWA,
either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new Standard
Track document if that is deemed necessary.

_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

Thanks for all your work!

Ana
_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

---

From: Alexander Pelov <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 12:12:58 +0200

Hi Pascal,

Looks perfect! Thanks!

I’ll just add that we already have our first technology on the list. It also seemed to me that we have a firm confirmation on the IEEE 802.15.4g. Juan Carlos, Thomas and  Jonathan could elaborate more on this.

Background/Introduction:
------------------------

 

 
 
The Working Group will focus on enabling IPv6 connectivity over a selection of
Low-Power Wide-Area technologies, SIGFOX, <Tech2> and <Tech3>.

 

Work Items:
-----------
 
The group will:

 

Best,
Alexander

> Le 27 mai 2016 à 11:57, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <[email-masked]> a écrit :
> 
> From: Alexander Pelov [mailto:[email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>] 
> To: Ana Minaburo <[email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>>
> Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <[email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>>; Mischa Dohler <[email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>>; [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>
> Le 27 avr. 2016 à 10:22, Ana Minaburo <[email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>> a écrit :
>  
> Hello Pascal,
>  
> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 8:31 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <[email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
> [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan>
>  
> [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan>

---

From: "weigengyu" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 11:19:54 +0800

Hi, 

Somethings need clarifications.
#1. 

> accommodate this work, which makes it so that existing IETF work (6lo) cannot be trivially applied.

asymmetric, or unbalanced?

#2. 

-----------

> 3. Produce Standard Track documents to enable the compression of a CoAP/UDP/IPv6 packet over LPWA. 

> either as a Best Practice leveraging existing technology, or as new Standard Track document if that is deemed necessary.

Work item 3 is a cross-layer work, covers from network layer to application layer.  Is it?
Work item 4 seems to be only for network layer, or a adation layer underneath IPv6. Is it?

So, the to-be 6LPWA WG is aiming to work at which layer or layers? 

Regards, 

Gengyu WEI
Network Technology Center
School of Computer 
Beijing University of Posts and Telecommunications

From: Alexander Pelov 
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2016 6:12 PM
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) 
Cc: Ana Minaburo ; [email-masked] ; Mischa Dohler 
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v5+

Hi Pascal, 

Looks perfect! Thanks!

 
Background/Introduction:
------------------------

 

 

 

 
Work Items:
-----------
 
The group will:

 

Best,
Alexander

   
  Background/Introduction:
  ------------------------

   

   

   

   
  Work Items:
  -----------
   
  The group will:

   

  Cheers,
   
  Pascal

  Hi Ana,
   
  Thanks for the input!
   
    Le 27 avr. 2016 à 10:22, Ana Minaburo <[email-masked]> a écrit :
     
    Hello Pascal,

    On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 8:31 PM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <[email-masked]> wrote:
      6LPWA: "IPv6 over Low-Power Wide-Area networks".

      Background/Introduction:
      ------------------------

     

     

      Work Items:
      -----------

      The group will:

   
   
  Thanks!
   
  Best,
  Alexander

      [email-masked]

    Ana
    [email-masked]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

---

From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 08:32:53 +0000

Hello Gengyu,

Ø  asymmetric, or unbalanced?

Asymmetric has its whole new set of issues. Even the widely unbalanced cases such as SigFox have a return channel. It is more reasonable and realistic to consider that a very slow return channel is available, and explore whether it could be made faster for some particular stages of the lifecycle such as the join process.

Ø  Work item 3 is a cross-layer work, covers from network layer to application layer.  Is it?

Ø  Work item 4 seems to be only for network layer, or an adaptation layer underneath IPv6. Is it?

Ø  So, the to-be 6LPWA WG is aiming to work at which layer or layers?

We certainly want to stay within the IETF comfort zone and have no aim to dictate anything in the application layer formats. Other groups are already doing that. We care for serving those applications well, e.g. by leveraging some opaque information that would be set by the application as a discriminator.

Rather, our problem is to transport the useful application payload over the internet, and enable the capabilities that are already resident there for other web services for security, filtering, balancing, etc... Even if people place it on top of the transport, CoAP is still an envelope, one that is not present in the air but may be very useful on the rest of the way, e.g. to enable a CoAP to HTTP proxy, enable service distribution, etc..

We can envision that the upper mac (like TSCH, 6top) is the low limit, and upper transport (CoAP, say) is the high limit, to be discussed.

Cheers,

Pascal

From: weigengyu [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: lundi 30 mai 2016 05:20
To: Alexander Pelov <[email-masked]>; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <[email-masked]>
Cc: Ana Minaburo <[email-masked]>; [email-masked]; Mischa Dohler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v5+

Hi,

Ø

#2.
-----------

Regards,

Gengyu WEI

From: Alexander Pelov<mailto:[email-masked]>
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2016 6:12 PM
To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert)<mailto:[email-masked]>
Cc: Ana Minaburo<mailto:[email-masked]> ; [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]> ; Mischa Dohler<mailto:[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v5+

Hi Pascal,

Looks perfect! Thanks!

Background/Introduction:
------------------------

Work Items:
-----------

The group will:

Best,
Alexander

Le 27 mai 2016 à 11:57, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>> a écrit :

Background/Introduction:
------------------------

Work Items:
-----------

The group will:

Cheers,

Pascal

From: Alexander Pelov [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: jeudi 26 mai 2016 10:01
To: Ana Minaburo <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>
Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>; Mischa Dohler <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>; [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v5

Hi Ana,

Thanks for the input!

Hello Pascal,

Background/Introduction:
------------------------

Work Items:
-----------

The group will:

Thanks!

Best,
Alexander

Ana

________________________________
_______________________________________________
lp-wan mailing list
[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lp-wan

---

From: Benoit Ponsard <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 16:54:37 +0000

Hi all,

A few words for clarification: the Sigfox solution is unbalanced (or asymmetrical) because of the license-exempt regulations: one base station, that can serve up to 100Ks of objects, has only 10% duty cycle for transmission in down-link (ie to the objects) and is limited in Tx power. When you put all things together, it's quite straightforward to have an asymmetrical traffic per object.

BR

BPS

De : lp-wan <[email-masked]> au nom de "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <[email-masked]>
Date : lundi 30 mai 2016 10:32
À : weigengyu <[email-masked]>, Alexander Pelov <[email-masked]>
Cc : Ana Minaburo <[email-masked]>, "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>, Mischa Dohler <[email-masked]>
Objet : Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v5+

Hello Gengyu,

Cheers,

Pascal

Hi,

Ø

#2.
-----------

Regards,

Gengyu WEI

Hi Pascal,

Looks perfect! Thanks!

Background/Introduction:
------------------------

Work Items:
-----------

The group will:

Best,
Alexander

Background/Introduction:
------------------------

Work Items:
-----------

The group will:

Cheers,

Pascal

Hi Ana,

Thanks for the input!

Hello Pascal,

Background/Introduction:
------------------------

Work Items:
-----------

The group will:

Thanks!

Best,
Alexander

Ana

---

From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 06:50:36 +0000

Makes sense Benoit;

Another clarification is the definition of asymmetrical. There is art that relates that term to unidirectional links, and that is the case that creates a world of complexity that we probably want to avoid at this time.

Cheers,

Pascal

From: Benoit Ponsard [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: lundi 30 mai 2016 18:55
To: [email-masked]
Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v5+

Hi all,

BR

BPS

De : lp-wan <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>> au nom de "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>
Date : lundi 30 mai 2016 10:32
À : weigengyu <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>, Alexander Pelov <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>
Cc : Ana Minaburo <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>, "[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>" <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>, Mischa Dohler <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>
Objet : Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v5+

Hello Gengyu,

Cheers,

Pascal

From: weigengyu [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: lundi 30 mai 2016 05:20
To: Alexander Pelov <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>; Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>
Cc: Ana Minaburo <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>; [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>; Mischa Dohler <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>
Subject: Re: [lp-wan] Proposed charter v5+

Hi,

Ø

#2.
-----------

Regards,

Gengyu WEI

Hi Pascal,

Looks perfect! Thanks!

Background/Introduction:
------------------------

Work Items:
-----------

The group will:

Best,
Alexander

Background/Introduction:
------------------------

Work Items:
-----------

The group will:

Cheers,

Pascal

Hi Ana,

Thanks for the input!

Hello Pascal,

Background/Introduction:
------------------------

Work Items:
-----------

The group will:

Thanks!

Best,
Alexander

Ana