Subject: [Ltru] Re: Registry in record-jar format

From: "Doug Ewell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:48:50 -0800

JFC (Jefsey) Morfin <jefsey at jefsey dot com> wrote:

> Could the authors (or anyone have a good command of their intent)
> document the exact _use_ of the IANA files as they see it.
>
> - an application reads a langtag.
> - what does it do?

Well, clearly that depends on the application.  A server might simply
attach a tag to content and be done with it (though hopefully it would
check that the tag was well-formed).  A browser or other user agent
might perform matching, but still not care what the tags being matched
actually "mean."  An application that performs some kind of text
processing, such as spell-checking or speech synthesis, would have to
know something about the meaning of the tags.  Some other application
might display the name of the language but not know anything else about
it.

> - when is it going to need a IANA originated data?

You mean, when is it going to need the list of valid subtags and
grandfathered whole-tags?

Always, if its functionality depends on the meaning of the tag.  The
only exceptions would be private-use tags and subtags, and extension
subtags (in which case it needs the RFC(s) that define those).

Never, if it only performs matching and doesn't care what the subtags
mean or whether they are even assigned.

Take a look at Section 2.2.10, "Classes of Conformance," which describes
the difference between a processor that checks for "well-formedness" and
one that also checks for "validity."  The "well-formed processor" only
needs (a) knowledge of the generative syntax and (b) a list of
grandfathered tags, both of which are carved in stone.  Such an app
would never need a complete registry at all.

> - will it be usually in the application code? will be it be updated
> in a parameter file? will it call the IANA? Should it call a cache/
> mirror? Then who should manage them?
> - which applications will do that?
> - how many times a day/month/year will this happen for a single user?
> or ISP? or designer?

All of that is up to the application.  We'd be a sorry bunch if we
attempted to dictate that to implementers.

I have a program that generates RFC 3066bis language tags from drop-down
lists, and can validate any tag, using all the information available in
the registry, in full compliance with Section 2.2.10.  Obviously, that
application cannot do its job correctly if its copy of the registry is
even slightly out of date.  Equally obviously, those constraints do not
apply to every application.

> For example, I understand that the non documented CLDR application

It's not documented as an application because it's a Data Repository.

> mostly needs the langtag as a reference and will maintain its own
> files to be themselves used by OS programmers. So the load should be
> very low, unless someone develops an updating tool direct from the
> IANA and people use it at each reboot.

That's their problem.  The draft explicitly discourages implementers
from relying on the registry being constantly available online, because
of the denial-of-service scenario.

> Without that information the whole Draft does not make any sense,
> because it is to document a IANA service and there are different
> strategies to address the need, depending on the load it represents.

By far, the most unused aspect of RFC 1766 and 3066 has been the
registered tags.  Few applications recognize even the oldest and
best-known registered tags, like "i-mingo" and "zh-guoyu", let alone the
newer ones like "bs-Latn" and "sl-rozaj".

Even though RFC 3066bis applications will rely on the registry rather
than ISO code lists, history does not suggest that application
developers and vendors will go to great lengths to keep local copies of
the registry updated.

-Doug Ewell
 Fullerton, California
 http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/

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---

From: Frank Ellermann <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 03:10:29 +0200

Doug Ewell wrote:

> let alone the newer ones like "bs-Latn" and "sl-rozaj".

The IANA/assignments/lang-tags/ Web page doesn't list bs-Latn.
The most recent IANA tag is still en-GB-oed (2003-07-09).

BTW, should we deprecate en-GB-oed and zh-min-nan ?  And / or
list the few grandfathered exceptions from the new general
pattern directly in the ABNF ?  

                        Bye, Frank