Subject: [Ltru] 4646bis-00 review by John Cowan

From: John Cowan <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:37:49 -0400

This is a preliminary run-through.

In 2.2, it would be better to use a valid tag rather than "fr-Latn-CA";
'fr' has a Suppress-Script of Latn.

In the last paragraph, let's use "i-default" rather than "i-enochian",
as the latter may eventually become deprecated.

2.2.1 item 2: for "maintenance agengies [sic]" read "registration
authorities".  The ISO 639 parts and ISO 15924 have registration
authorities, because those groups decide what does and does not go in
the standard.  ISO 3166 has a maintenance agency, because it chooses
the subtags but doesn't decide what goes on the list and what doesn't.
There are other instances of this problem going back to RFC 1766.

2.2.1: For "It is not expected that future assignments of this nature
will occur" read "It is expected that future assignments of this nature
will not occur."  I think we can safely assume that now.

At the end of 2.2.1 there are two consecutive "For example" grafs,
the first of which is semantically subordinate to the graf beginning
"Note: To avoid problems with [...]" but the second is parallel to it.
Change the second "For example" to "Note:" also.

2.2.2 is severely broken, not surprisingly.  I'll address this separately.

2.2.4: change the first appearance of "region" to "multi-country
region" for clarity, and add a sentence to the first graf something like
"Language varieties specific to regions within countries and territories
are represented by variant subtags."

2.2.4 item 5: for "as when" read "as when it is not known or"

2.2.9, final bullet point: for "at least one" read "the"; an extlang
subtag MUST have exactly one prefix.

3.1 is excessively long and should be separated into pieces.

3.1: for "MAY appear more than one time" read "MAY appear more than once".

3.3: missing spaces before references, leading to "inSection 3.6" and
"of[RFC 4646]" in the HTML version.  This problem may be more widespread.

3.4, item 17: The exception is misstated: it's not enough that all
the subtags in a grandfathered tag are valid, they also have to be in
well-formed order.  Change to "should a grandfathered tag become equal
to a valid tag composed of subtags in the IANA registry" or similar.
We can't leave out "composed of subtags" because a grandfathered tag
is a valid tag by definition.

3.5 last graf: "Description" is ambiguous; it might be taken as referring
to the Description: field in the registration form.  Change to "Reference
to published description of the language".

3.6 first bullet: for "maintenance or registration" read "registration";
see above.  Same story for "maintenance agency" and "agency" in the text
just before the addresses for 639 (should this now be 639-1? I don't
know), 639-2, and 639-3.  3166 and 15924 are correct.

4.1 item 2: for "which script subtags do not add" read "script subtags
that do not add".

-- 
A mosquito cried out in his pain,               John Cowan
"A chemist has poisoned my brain!"              http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
        The cause of his sorrow                 [email-masked]
        Was para-dichloro-
Diphenyltrichloroethane.                                (aka DDT)

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---

From: Frank Ellermann <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:48:19 +0200

John Cowan wrote:

Going through your list (skipped => ACK):

> 2.2.4: change the first appearance of "region" to
> "multi-country region" for clarity

Soryy, I don't get this.  The first sentence starting with
"Region subtags are used" [...] is okay,

> add a sentence to the first graf something like "Language
> varieties specific to regions within countries and
> territories are represented by variant subtags."

More like "could be represented" (if registered), or "can be
represented by registered variant subtags" (with a pointer to
the next section about variants).  A statement about this
could also be added as new point 7 of the 2.2.4 list (instead
of adding it to the 2.2.4 intro).
 
> 3.1 is excessively long and should be separated into pieces.

Indeed, the stuff about Deprecated and Preferred-Value could
be one of those 3.1.x pieces, or a single new subsection 3.1.1.
 
 [3.4.17]
> Change to "should a grandfathered tag become equal to a valid
> tag composed of subtags in the IANA registry" or similar.

Maybe ..."valid tag composed of registered subtags" (shorter).

Frank

---

From: Addison Phillips <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 09:49:52 -0700

Comments follow. Editor's copy updated and posted to inter-locale. A 
wdiff link is included there.

I note that TinyURL has decided that tools.ietf.org is a "frequently 
spammed" site. I'm going to have to switch to del.icio.us or Y!Scuttle 
for my short URLs....

Addison

> 'fr' has a Suppress-Script of Latn.

Changed to use 'Hant' and "zh-Hant-CN". This, of course, is an example 
from 4646...

> as the latter may eventually become deprecated.

Done.

> There are other instances of this problem going back to RFC 1766.

Typo fixed. Terminology fixed in 2.2.1, 2.2.2, etc.

> will not occur."  I think we can safely assume that now.

Changed the syntax.

> Change the second "For example" to "Note:" also.

Changed to:

<t>Note: An example of independent primary language subtag registration 
might include: one of the grandfathered IANA registrations
is "i-enochian". The subtag 'enochian' could be registered
in the IANA registry as a primary language subtag
(assuming that ISO 639 does not register this language first),
making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochian-Latn" valid.
</t>

Making the item a note required some additional text explaining what it was.

It might be better just to lose the example altogether.

> 2.2.2 is severely broken, not surprisingly.  I'll address this separately.

It is severely "not there yet" :-).

> region" for clarity, 

No. That doesn't make sense: the first appearance is defining what 
"region subtag" is. Please suggest the specific text, if you think this 
in error.

> and add a sentence to the first graf something like

I don't think this text would be appropriate on two points:

1. It would be better to say "could be represented by variant subtags", 
since no sub-regional subtags are registered.

2. The rules make this happen anyway.

> 2.2.4 item 5: for "as when" read "as when it is not known or"

I don't think this adds anything necessary to the document.

> subtag MUST have exactly one prefix.

This item is a mess, actually. I changed it to:

<t>For extended language subtags, check that the tag matches the 
'Prefix' field associated with the subtag. The tag matches if the 
'Prefix' exactly matches the start of the tag. For example, the prefix 
"sgn-ase" matches the tag "sgn-ase-US" but does not match the tag 
"sgn-bvs-ase-US".</t>

> 3.1 is excessively long and should be separated into pieces.

I'll consider how to break it up, but would prefer not to. I don't see 
the need to introduce changes to 4646 text if we don't have to. The time 
to edit 4646 was in draft-registry.

> 3.1: for "MAY appear more than one time" read "MAY appear more than once".

Done.

> "of[RFC 4646]" in the HTML version.  This problem may be more widespread.

Spaces are present in the XML. Will investigate further.

> is a valid tag by definition.

Good point. I changed it thusly:

--
Stability provisions apply to grandfathered tags with this exception:
should it be possible to compose one of the grandfathered tags from 
registered subtags, then the field 'Type' in that record is changed from 
'grandfathered' to 'redundant'.
--

I note that this bears on our discussion of allowing 
Preferred-Value/Deprecated into redundant tags: if a grandfathered tag 
has picked up this baggage, wouldn't it stand to reason that the 
redundant tag would keep it?

> to published description of the language".

Already done per Frank's comments.

> know), 639-2, and 639-3.  3166 and 15924 are correct.

Done.

> 4.1 item 2: for "which script subtags do not add" read "script subtags

Done.

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.

---

From: John Cowan <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 13:22:49 -0400

> "region subtag" is. Please suggest the specific text, if you think this 

Sorry, I specified this badly.  I meant to suggest changing "specific
country, territory, or region" to "specific country, territory, or
multi-country region."  I did not mean to change the term "Region
subtag", of course.

Come to think of it, "territory" is also bad, though I don't have
anything better to suggest.

> since no sub-regional subtags are registered.

+1

> 2. The rules make this happen anyway.

Sure, but saying so redundantly here adds clarity.

> I don't think this adds anything necessary to the document.

I think it's useful to point out that adding subtags you are
not sure of just to be adding them is a Bad Thing.  If you
don't know if the document is en-US or en-UK or ..., stick
with en.  Perhaps this should be made more explicit.

> to edit 4646 was in draft-registry.

My review was a de novo one; I should have made that clear from the
beginning.

> redundant tag would keep it?

+1

-- 
John Cowan  [email-masked]  http://ccil.org/~cowan
Linguistics is arguably the most hotly contested property in the academic
realm. It is soaked with the blood of poets, theologians, philosophers,
philologists, psychologists, biologists and neurologists, along with
whatever blood can be got out of grammarians. - Russ Rymer

---

From: Frank Ellermann <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 19:27:02 +0200

Addison Phillips wrote on tge LTRU list:
 
> I note that TinyURL has decided that tools.ietf.org is a
> "frequently spammed" site. I'm going to have to switch to
> del.icio.us or Y!Scuttle for my short URLs....

Sigh, forwarded to the "tools" list, could we get a default
url1= if only url2= is specifified ?  The algorithm would be:

1: strip and note any extension like ".txt" at the last dot
2: split version after last hyphen-minus like 03 for "...-03"
3: concatenate the rest plus version -1 (02) plus extension
   to get a default url1.

And maybe let &difftype=--hwdiff be the default, instead of
the side-by-side diff (?)

It's okay if the tinyurl folks are paranoid, they were or are
blacklisted by wikipedia after some abuse.  For redirectors
SURBL offers a way to fight abuse:
<http://www.surbl.org/redirect.html>

Frank

---

From: Addison Phillips <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 10:53:39 -0700

> anything better to suggest.

Thanks for the clarification. Hmm.. that text is kind of awkward. I'll 
play with it in the next edit session.

> Sure, but saying so redundantly here adds clarity.

Okay.

> with en.  Perhaps this should be made more explicit.

Not a bad idea in general, but not strictly necessary here. I find the 
resulting sentence more potentially confusing (for an example).

> My review was a de novo one; I should have made that clear from the

I recognize that. I'm okay with a de novo review (it is good to use 
fresh eyes). My point is that I'm expressing an "editorial preference" 
not to make wide changes in the structure of the document. I'd prefer 
not to introduce a lot more change in the text, if possible, too, 
although the change bars are going lots of places as it is.....

Addison

---

From: "Mark Davis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:11:52 -0700

++1

---

From: Frank Ellermann <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 22:25:34 +0200

Henrik Levkowetz wrote:

 [default url1= derived from url2=]
> Done.  I've also added a symlink
[...]
> http://www1.tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff.pyht?url2=http://...

Great, thanks, test URL:

http://www1.tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff.pyht?url2=http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-01.txt&difftype=--hwdiff

Frank

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 22:43:40 +0200

Hi Frank,

> http://www1.tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff.pyht?url2=http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-01.txt&difftype=--hwdiff

I actually shortened it a little bit further just after I sent off the previous :

  http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-01.txt&difftype=--hwdiff

Regards,

	Henrik

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 21:41:19 +0200

Hi Frank,

>> del.icio.us or Y!Scuttle for my short URLs....

Hmm - tried to use it just now for a tinyurl to a  tools.ietf.org URL,
and didn't see any problems...  Is it a matter both of target domain
and requesting domain?

> 3: concatenate the rest plus version -1 (02) plus extension

Done.  I've also added a symlink so instead of

  http://www1.tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url2=http://...

you can now also use the somewhat shorter

The changes are available on www1.tools.ietf.org now, should be on all
servers within an hour.

> the side-by-side diff (?)

This is less obvious to me... I personally always want the side-by-side
diff, but if most people want --hwdiff, we could change.  Either way,
I've considered adding links to other diff formats at the top of the
diff generated, but haven't gone there yet.

> <http://www.surbl.org/redirect.html>

Mmm.  Thanks.  I didn't know about this.

	Henrik