Subject: [Ltru] OT: Language picking

From: John Cowan <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 01:42:45 -0400

Well, here's the idea I came up with.  Feel free to pick holes in it.

First, a list of countries to choose from.  This list is long,
but people are used to it, so it shouldn't be a big problem.

Next, a couple of lists to choose one of (using radio buttons, say):
the home languages (English for the U.K., e.g.), the indigenous living
languages, the dead languages, the immigrant languages.  That nails
down the language.

Then some more lists to choose one of; the generic form of the language
(no country code), the form used in the country you picked in the
first place, other countries where the language is used, other countries
where supposedly it isn't used.

So you pick US, find English in the indigenous living languages,
and then you can pick en, en-us, en-* for likely countries, and
then oddities like en-fr, en-dk, etc.

-- 
Real FORTRAN programmers can program FORTRAN    John Cowan
in any language.  --Allen Brown                 [email-masked]

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---

From: "Debbie Garside" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:47:05 +0100

Not bad :-)

But, in this instance, I would add... Display the top 10 languages by
population/speakers followed by others in alphabetical order. 

I think it would be useful to discuss the various uses.  In other words,
look at the end product first.  Which industries do we think will be using
this data and in what way?  For instance, pick lists on web sites for Joe
Public to navigate, the needs of archivists and libraries who may well need
a more linguistic/relational style approach, web designers, software
designers who are interested in ascertaining the locale, etc. etc. Each may
have different priorities. 

Best 

Debbie 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] 
> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of John Cowan
> Sent: 06 October 2006 06:43
> To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
> Subject: OT: Language picking
> 
> First, a list of countries to choose from.  This list is 
> long, but people are used to it, so it shouldn't be a big problem.
> 
> the home languages (English for the U.K., e.g.), the 
> indigenous living languages, the dead languages, the 
> immigrant languages.  That nails down the language.
> 
> Then some more lists to choose one of; the generic form of 
> the language (no country code), the form used in the country 
> you picked in the first place, other countries where the 
> language is used, other countries where supposedly it isn't used.
> 
> So you pick US, find English in the indigenous living 
> languages, and then you can pick en, en-us, en-* for likely 
> countries, and then oddities like en-fr, en-dk, etc.
> 
> -- 
> Ietf-languages mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
> 
> 
> 
>

---

From: John Cowan <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 12:00:13 -0400

Don Osborn scripsit:

> The Locale Generator - http://www.it46.se/localegen/ (list of languages
> for creation of locales from ISO/FDIS 636-3 - needs to be amended IMO;
> country is selected after language)

This is a fine example of what's wrong with just using the bare list
of languages.  The list is here broken up by first letter of the alphabet
into 27 sublists, but when I look for Dari under "D", I don't find it
and go away in disgust (see my earlier posting).

-- 
John Cowan <[email-masked]>             http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Today an interactive brochure website, tomorrow a global content
management system that leverages collective synergy to drive "outside of
the box" thinking and formulate key objectives into a win-win game plan
with a quality-driven approach that focuses on empowering key players
to drive-up their core competencies and increase expectations with an
all-around initiative to drive up the bottom-line. --Alex Papadimoulis

---

From: John Cowan <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 12:05:22 -0400

> population/speakers followed by others in alphabetical order. 

Fair enough.  I was trying to handle only the generic case, where
we don't know anything about what's probable.

> I think it would be useful to discuss the various uses.  In other
> words, look at the end product first.  Which industries do we think
> will be using this data and in what way?  For instance, pick lists
> on web sites for Joe Public to navigate, the needs of archivists and
> libraries who may well need a more linguistic/relational style approach,
> web designers, software designers who are interested in ascertaining
> the locale, etc. etc. Each may have different priorities.

I think the archivists and librarians, who in principle may have to deal
with anything (especially when dealing with audio) will be the ones who
need the full power and generality of this.  No web site is going to be
localized in 7000 languages or even 700, so the problem doesn't arise.

-- 
John Cowan  [email-masked]   http://ccil.org/~cowan
Consider the matter of Analytic Philosophy.  Dennett and Bennett are well-known.
Dennett rarely or never cites Bennett, so Bennett rarely or never cites Dennett.
There is also one Dummett.  By their works shall ye know them.  However, just as
no trinities have fourth persons (Zeppo Marx notwithstanding), Bummett is hardly
known by his works.  Indeed, Bummett does not exist.  It is part of the function
of this and other e-mail messages, therefore, to do what they can to create him.

---

From: "Don Osborn" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:49:31 -0400

I missed the context on this, but fwiw, I agree with Debbie that the context
of use is important. If you set up a database you might also be able to
present the list dynamically to suit the preference - top 10, alpha,
regional and some ranking or alpha, endangered, etc. 

Question of time & money to set up and "populate" the dbase, but once it is,
the rest should be easier and more fun.

Here are three examples of particular approaches that may be of interest for
comparison or discussion (or maybe not, but here they are anyway):

The Locale Generator - http://www.it46.se/localegen/ 
(list of languages for creation of locales from ISO/FDIS 636-3 - needs to be
amended IMO; country is selected after language)

Wikipedia - http://www.wikipedia.org/
(obviously not a database but they have classed the language pages by number
of articles; one could of course list languages in classes like this by
speakership, region, language family, ...)

Wiki on African localization with pages on Countries and Major Languages -
http://www.panafril10n.org/wikidoc/pmwiki.php/PanAfrLoc/ 
(there is a page for other languages too, but the main list is limited; this
is not a dbase, but a format that permits access to and collection of info
in different ways)

Don

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Debbie Garside
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 6:47 AM
To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]; 'John Cowan'
Subject: RE: Language picking

Not bad :-)

Best 

Debbie 

> First, a list of countries to choose from.  This list is long, but 
> people are used to it, so it shouldn't be a big problem.
> 
> Then some more lists to choose one of; the generic form of the 
> language (no country code), the form used in the country you picked in 
> the first place, other countries where the language is used, other 
> countries where supposedly it isn't used.
> 
> So you pick US, find English in the indigenous living languages, and 
> then you can pick en, en-us, en-* for likely countries, and then 
> oddities like en-fr, en-dk, etc.
> 
> --

---

From: "Don Osborn" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 13:09:28 -0400

Thanks, John, I think the Locale Generator as such was a first cut. I'll cc
this to Alberto and Louise (who created the Generator earlier this year) for
their info (see archives via
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ).

Two issues: you and they base the list on 639-3, which is okay if
"macrolanguages," are included and better yet if 639-1 code categories are
also there. I think the level of precision of language picking for locales
and localization depends a lot on the use. If it's localizing a software, it
makes no sense to look at separate versions for 8 varieties of
Fulfulde/Pulaar, or a dozen or so Manding tongues, but if you are talking
about text it might even be helpful in some cases to have a finer
distinction. There are lots of such examples in Africa, for instance.

This need for flexibility almost seems to require a more "artisanal"
approach that lets real people who are more or less familiar with the
languages, countries, needs, etc. access information to make the choices
based on their perceived specific needs. This is the sense of the PAL
African language wiki I also mentioned.

Where I think lists such as those you and Alberto and Louise are working on
fitting in this process is in providing a range of information and options
on the way to producing some output - and that that output be explicitly
part of an iterative process. That is to say, it is not the final word in
itself, but an aid in reaching an appropriate solution. The products of
Locale Generator, for example, indeed are reviewed before submission.

Ultimately an interactive search option might be a good feature for such
lists (which I guess requires a database or an advanced search facility). It
might also alert users to language synonym issues - unrelated languages with
the same or similar names that might be confused.

Hope this helps.

Don

-----Original Message-----
From: John Cowan [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 12:00 PM
To: Don Osborn
Cc: [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Language picking

Don Osborn scripsit:

> The Locale Generator - http://www.it46.se/localegen/ (list of 
> languages for creation of locales from ISO/FDIS 636-3 - needs to be 

This is a fine example of what's wrong with just using the bare list of
languages.  The list is here broken up by first letter of the alphabet into
27 sublists, but when I look for Dari under "D", I don't find it and go away
in disgust (see my earlier posting).

-- 
John Cowan <[email-masked]>             http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Today an interactive brochure website, tomorrow a global content management
system that leverages collective synergy to drive "outside of the box"
thinking and formulate key objectives into a win-win game plan with a
quality-driven approach that focuses on empowering key players to drive-up
their core competencies and increase expectations with an all-around
initiative to drive up the bottom-line. --Alex Papadimoulis

---

From: John Cowan <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:41:24 -0400

Alberto Escudero Pascual scripsit:

> When we worked in the locale generator http://www.it46.se/localegen we
> worked with the best resources that were available in that time. The
> task is/was not easy and as far as i know the tool has served for its
> purpose that is too gather some initial data from languages. We put
> together more locales in two weeks that in years of previous work. 

Indeed.  I did not mean to be critical of this particular project,
and I grant that having the Big List is much better than nothing.
I was just attempting to explore the design space to see if
something else is better yet.

-- 
Evolutionary psychology is the theory           John Cowan
that men are nothing but horn-dogs,             http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
and that women only want them for their money.  [email-masked]
        --Susan McCarthy (adapted)

---

From: Alberto Escudero Pascual <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 11:27:11 +0200

Hi Don and John,

Usability was taken into consideration from the very early stage of the
design. If you do not find a language under the list, you can always
edit the entries manually (see manual of the application).

We are happy to receive feedback, the "interactive search option" is now
added to our wish-list. We are also happy to hear if someone wants to
move forward with the tool. 

Alberto