Subject: Re: [Ltru] More about Description fields

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 14:28:48 -0800

This is a bit off-topic, but describes real-life situations that might 
have some bearing on the description discussion -- or not. Note that I 
indicated my use of "Gaelic (Scottish)" is for my local applications, not 
necessarily what I'm suggesting ISO or IETF should call the language. 
Forgive me if I'm repeating myself....

It's not as important for me to be politically correct or perfectly in 
synch with ISO standards as it is to ensure that our films are correctly 
classified in a way that enables their distribution to the correct 
countries and linguistic demographics. We frequently get Irish content 
that is described as "Gaelic." 

Even IMDB, considered by many to be the world's most authoritative source 
of film metadata, does not make proper distinctions between Irish and 
Gaelic. (I'm not sure they use the term "Irish" at all, so everything ends 
up as "Gaelic.") 

Examples from IMDB using "Gaelic" as a label that are -- as far as I can 
tell -- Irish films:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0410939/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0111112/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0488062/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0474510/

I need to do something to my interfaces to help the user classify content 
correctly, whether I take the purist high-road or use tricks to fool users 
into making the right choice or realizing they need to look at the 
documentation more closely. It cannot be assumed that a person who fills 
in metadata about a film is an expert linguist. 

So despite your assertion that "Gaelic" is more correct, I won't use that 
label in an interface because Irish films will inevitably end up in this 
category as seen on IMDB. I use inverted forms "Gaelic (Irish)" and 
"Gaelic (Scottish)." This signals the user that they need to know the 
difference. My apologies to those who find this offensive, but it helps 
get me what I need and I can use the correct language code underneath 
these classifications.

Yes, in a perfect world an American film buff would also know the 
difference between Scots, Glaswegian English, Gaelic, and Irish, but 
inevitably we'll get films labeled "Scottish" or "Scots" or "Gaelic" and I 
need to do whatever I can to the user interface name to get the content 
classified correctly so it finds its audience. It's not a 
misunderstanding; it's a conscious usability choice.

I recommend the use of these and other inverted forms and I won't 
apologize for it. I'll save my apologies for the occasion when a user 
purchases a "Gaelic" film that is actually in Irish from a Sony Pictures 
service.

Regards,

Karen Broome
Metadata Systems Designer
Sony Pictures Entertainment
310.244.4384

Marion Gunn <[email-masked]> 
12/13/2006 04:35 AM

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LTRU Working Group <[email-masked]>
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Subject
Re: [Ltru] More about Description fields

On 12 Dec 2006, at 22:25, scríobh [email-masked]:

For the record, I was previously reprimanded for suggesting the use of 
"Gaelic (Scots)" because of its potential to confuse the user with the 
Scots language. I agreed. In my local applications, I'm now using "Gaelic 
(Scottish)." 

For the record (for those who STILL find it hard to match languages to 
countries):
the "Celtic" language of Scotland is "Gaelic";
the "Celtic" language of Ireland is "Irish";
the "Celtic" language of the Isle of Man is "Manx";
the "Celtic" language of Wales is "Welsh";
the "Celtic" language of Brittany is "Breton";
the "Celtic" language of Corwall is "Cornish".

As you can see, the only mismatch is Scotland, having a language called 
"Gaelic" - ALL the other languages are called by names which match the 
names of the countries to which they belong.  Deviating from this simple 
rule causes offense to speakers and endless difficulties to both teachers 
and learners.
mg

- - 
Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991)
27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an 
Bhóthair, Co. Átha Cliath, Éire.
* [email-masked] * [email-masked] *
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From: John Cowan <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:12:29 -0500

> Gaelic. (I'm not sure they use the term "Irish" at all, so everything ends 

A quick look shows that IMDB does not distinguish between Irish and Scottish
Gaelic at all, merging them under the term "Gaelic".  (There are probably
no movies with Manx dialogue.)

> purchases a "Gaelic" film that is actually in Irish from a Sony Pictures 

They'll be able to follow it anyhow, at least if it is about "fishing
and bawdy" (O'Brian).

-- 
John Cowan  <[email-masked]>  http://ccil.org/~cowan
Micropayment advocates mistakenly believe that efficient allocation of
resources is the purpose of markets.  Efficiency is a byproduct of market
systems, not their goal.  The reasons markets work are not because users
have embraced efficiency but because markets are the best place to allow
users to maximize their preferences, and very often their preferences are
not for conservation of cheap resources.  --Clay Shirkey

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:33:58 -0800

> no movies with Manx dialogue.)

Exactly ... Admittedly a slightly different scenario, but the fact that no 
one has noticed this problem on a fairly high-quality site indicates a 
usability problem in understanding the distinctions between the languages. 
While adding "Irish" to the list in the IMDB classification interface 
might help, the best solution would be "Gaelic (Irish)" and "Gaelic 
(Scottish)" IMHO. 

Of course, these language names could then be displayed in the *browsing* 
interface as "Irish" and "Gaelic" in keeping with Marion's suggested 
usage.

FWIW,

Karen

---

From: Marion Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:35:23 +0000

On 13 Dec 2006, at 22:50, scríobh CE Whitehead:
> ...
> I've always referred to the Celtic language of Scotland as Scots  
> Gaelic as opposed to Scots dialect which is English spoken as the  
> Scottish folk speak it.
> However apparently Scots is now the term for the Scottish variety  
> of English

The name "Scots" refers to the Germanic language indigenous to Scotland.

This debate reminds me of how long it and how much damage it took for  
Reuters to stop calling Bosnian by some other name.

Now going offline to attend a lunch a group I belong to is giving for  
the Slovenian Ambassador, whose opinion we respect and who respects  
ours.
mg

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