Subject: [Ltru] Talking about UTF-8 in 4645bis

From: "Doug Ewell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 18:39:45 -0700

Draft-4645bis-02 doesn't make any mention of UTF-8, or of the fact that 
IANA must convert the "meat" of the document to UTF-8 in the process of 
reloading the Registry.  I'm guessing that it should, but where would be 
a suitable place?

Draft-4646bis-08 already talks about the Reviewer's and IANA's 
responsibilities in converting data to UTF-8, and I don't think it would 
be appropriate for draft-4645bis to supersede or contradict that.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages

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---

From: Addison Phillips <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 21:05:13 -0700

I'd suggest: In either section 2.5, as part of the introductory bits of 
section 3, or in section 5, add the text:

--
The final registry format uses the UTF-8 character encoding. Non-ASCII 
characters represented in this document by XML hex entities (such as 
&#xB4;) were converted by IANA to Unicode characters in the UTF-8 
encoding when the updated registry was instantiated.
--

We don't say (or need to say) how.

Addison

-- 
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Yahoo! Inc.
Chair -- W3C Internationalization Core WG

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.

---

From: "Doug Ewell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 23:59:49 -0700

Addison Phillips <addison at yahoo dash inc dot com> wrote:

> I'd suggest: In either section 2.5, as part of the introductory bits 
> of section 3, or in section 5, add the text:
>
> --

I've added this to Section 3, after the RFC Editor Note.  As such, it's 
now an instruction to IANA about reloading the Registry, so I've 
converted it to the present tense.

---

From: Addison Phillips <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 08:43:40 -0700

Actually, I was thinking of adding the present tense version and some 
MUSTard in Section 3.8 (Update of the Language Subtag Registry) of 
4646bis. In reading the current draft of your document, I didn't see any 
specific IANA instructions, and so guessed that it should use the past 
tense (as a matter of historical record).

Not that it makes much difference. What matters is that IANA knows what 
to do.

---

From: "Doug Ewell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 07:22:06 -0700

Addison Phillips <addison at yahoo dash inc dot com> wrote:

> 4646bis. In reading the current draft of your document, I didn't see 
> any specific IANA instructions, and so guessed that it should use the 
> past tense (as a matter of historical record).

Here's what I actually added to draft-03 (which still lives only on my 
jump drive, given that no comments on draft-02 have emerged yet).  This 
paragraph appears right after "must not be deleted" and right before the 
File-Date record.

"The Language Subtag Registry uses the UTF-8 character encoding. 
Non-ASCII characters represented in this document by XML hex entities 
(such as &amp;#xB4;) MUST be converted by IANA to Unicode characters in 
the UTF-8 encoding when the updated Registry is instantiated."

How is that?  Anyone?

---

From: Marion Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:32:00 +0000

"Instantiated" just means "represented by an instance" (check your  
Concise Oxford). Please make it less hard on users, perhaps by using  
"instated" (or something even simpler again).
mg
On 21 Aug 2007, at 14:22, scríobh Doug Ewell:

>> Actually, I was thinking of adding the present tense version and  
>> some MUSTard in Section 3.8 (Update of the Language Subtag  
>> Registry) of 4646bis. In reading the current draft of your  
>> document, I didn't see any specific IANA instructions, and so  
>> guessed that it should use the past tense (as a matter of  
>> historical record).
>>
>>
>
> Here's what I actually added to draft-03 (which still lives only on  
> my jump drive, given that no comments on draft-02 have emerged  
> yet).  This paragraph appears right after "must not be deleted" and  
> right before the File-Date record.
>
> Non-ASCII characters represented in this document by XML hex  
> entities (such as &amp;#xB4;) MUST be converted by IANA to Unicode  
> characters in the UTF-8 encoding when the updated Registry is  
> instantiated."
>
> How is that?  Anyone?
>
> --

--
Marion Gunn
[email-masked]

- -
Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991)
27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an
Bhóthair, Co. Átha Cliath, Éire.
* [email-masked] * [email-masked] *

---

From: Addison Phillips <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 09:43:45 -0700

(laughing) 'Instantiated' is a bit of programming jargon. It will be 
well-understood by that portion of the reader community. I didn't mean 
to send anyone to their Oxford dictionary (concise or otherwise).

The important connotation of the word "instantiated" here is that the 
act of instantiation is the creation of the registry. If we were to 
replace the word (unnecessary, I think), it would be with the word 
"created".

Best Regards,

Addison

Marion Gunn wrote:
>> jump drive, given that no comments on draft-02 have emerged yet).  
>> This paragraph appears right after "must not be deleted" and right 
>> before the File-Date record.
>>
>> (such as &amp;#xB4;) MUST be converted by IANA to Unicode characters 
>> in the UTF-8 encoding when the updated Registry is instantiated."
>>
>> How is that?  Anyone?
>>
>> --

---

From: Marion Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 18:17:28 +0000

I happen to know that particular piece of programming jargon,  
Addison, too, but do _not_ believe that all the target community can  
be expected to do so. I do believe that it it would be easier for  
such users if you used another word simply indicating the "creation  
of the registry", as you put it. So much of my life is dedicated to  
collecting and compiling dictionaries and standardizing new  
terminology that I tend now to believe the simpler approach tends to  
foster better comprehension. Not fighting the jargon at all - if you  
like it, leave it in.
mg
On 21 Aug 2007, at 16:43, scríobh Addison Phillips:

> (laughing) 'Instantiated' is a bit of programming jargon. It will  
> be well-understood by that portion of the reader community. I  
> didn't mean to send anyone to their Oxford dictionary (concise or  
> otherwise).
>
> The important connotation of the word "instantiated" here is that  
> the act of instantiation is the creation of the registry. If we  
> were to replace the word (unnecessary, I think), it would be with  
> the word "created".
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Addison

- -

---

From: Addison Phillips <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 10:29:51 -0700

In this case, you have to convince Doug: he's the editor of 4645bis :-).

Addison

Marion Gunn wrote:
> I happen to know that particular piece of programming jargon, Addison, 
> too, but do _not_ believe that all the target community can be expected 
> to do so. I do believe that it it would be easier for such users if you 
> used another word simply indicating the "creation of the registry", as 
> you put it. So much of my life is dedicated to collecting and compiling 
> dictionaries and standardizing new terminology that I tend now to 
> believe the simpler approach tends to foster better comprehension. Not 
> fighting the jargon at all - if you like it, leave it in.
> mg

---

From: Marion Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 18:39:07 +0000

Mostly, I get paid for de-jargonizing things for clients who afraid  
their in-house covens are scaring away more   customers than they  
attract - here, Doug gets my advice for free!:-)
mg

- -

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From: "Debbie Garside" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 18:38:49 +0100

There is definitely scope for a plain english campaign here :-)

Best

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marion Gunn [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: 21 August 2007 19:39
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Talking about UTF-8 in 4645bis
>
> attract - here, Doug gets my advice for free!:-) mg On 21 Aug
> 2007, at 17:29, scríobh Addison Phillips:
>

---

From: Marion Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 18:43:48 +0000

Recte "are afraid". Actually, I first wrote "coveys", but replaced it  
with "covens", in case that would send too many members of this list  
fumbling for the nearest dictionary to hand.
mg

- -