Subject: [manet] I have a dream

From: S Woodside <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 00:42:46 -0500

Well, it's a fairly minor dream. What I imagine is this: I have DSL. My 
neighbour has DSL. We also both have WiFi APs that can reach each 
other, and connect at order-of-magnitude faster than the DSL links. 
What I dream is this: That we start routing internet across the link. 
When I start pulling packets off the internet, they can come to me not 
only through my own DSL but from hers as well. I think this boils down 
to an ultimate simplicity what all FN / CWNers want to achieve.

What needs to happen before I can realize my dream. I need to get an 
IPv6 address ... at least one ... for free. I need to be able to set up 
multi-homing in my home router. I need to be able to advertise my 
routing path to the internet. The internet needs to be able to handle 
at a massive scale (since every neighbour connects...). We need a /lot/ 
more IP addresses than we have now. I need to use a /real/ IP address 
because I can't route internet traffic through a NAT/site-local 
address. I need to have an ad-hoc routing algorithm that can set up 
this bridge and route across it really easily (because I'm not a 
trained network admin). Forget about BGP, AS, etc., we need a way to 
handle the massive overload of routes at local scale, at a regional 
scale, at a global scale -- something that will scale gracefully as the 
internet topology shifts from a tree to a massively connected mesh.

Please comment ... tell me what you think.

Simon

PS I'm cross-posting this to a bunch of lists because I don't know one 
it belongs on. If you think you know which is best, please tell me!

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From: Miguel Sánchez <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 08:38:51 +0200

Hi Simon,

While you can think datagram throughput can be boosted this way you may
be surprised that TCP-based applications will  be confused about your
setup.
TCP flow control is based on a round-trip time (RTT) estimation for each
connection. While assuming large variations may happen, connections will
work better when RTT does not change a lot (if it does may trigger
unneeded retransmissions that will also reduce congestion window and
will speed down you data flow).

And because switching from IPv4 to IPv6 does not change this phenomena,
I'm not sure this approach will be convenient for bulk data transfers.

However, it may be convenient for web browsing (as far as you keep on
using HTTP/1.0).

Just my two cent,

Dr. Miguel Sanchez
Polytechnic University of Valencia, Spain

S Woodside wrote:

> Well, it's a fairly minor dream. What I imagine is this: I have DSL.
> My neighbour has DSL. We also both have WiFi APs that can reach each
> IPv6 address ... at least one ... for free. I need to be able to set
> up multi-homing in my home router. I need to be able to advertise my
> at a massive scale (since every neighbour connects...). We need a
> /lot/ more IP addresses than we have now. I need to use a /real/ IP
> address because I can't route internet traffic through a
> NAT/site-local address. I need to have an ad-hoc routing algorithm
> that can set up this bridge and route across it really easily (because
> I'm not a trained network admin). Forget about BGP, AS, etc., we need
> a way to handle the massive overload of routes at local scale, at a
> regional scale, at a global scale -- something that will scale
> gracefully as the internet topology shifts from a tree to a massively
> connected mesh.
>

---

From: S Woodside <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:09:20 -0500

On Wednesday, April 2, 2003, at 01:02  AM, Joel Jaeggli wrote:

> um... the internet routing architecture didn't explode in 1997 becuase
> we'd didn't do this. meshed network edges need an igp, some sanity and
> cooperative upstreams, otherwise you'll just have a very large very  
> messy
> subnet with not external routing.

Not true at all. With IPv6 there's plenty of ways to solve the problem.  
This is one:

    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hain-ipv6-pi-addr-03.txt
     
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hain-ipv6-pi-addr-use-03.txt

         It is frequently assumed that any address format that is not  
based
         on provider aggregation will degenerate into the 'swamp' that  
came
         to describe pre-CIDR IPv4, with the result that the routing  
table
         grows unabated. The goal of this scheme is to allow sites to be
         independent of any provider, while still allowing aggregation  
for
         those who do not require explicit global routing policy. As a
         result, there will need to be consistently applied rules for  
when a
         prefix gets aggregated and when it doesn't. These will be  
discussed
         in the recommendations section.

simon

> joelja
>
>
> On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, S Woodside wrote:
>
>> My
>> up
>> /lot/
>> --
>> general wireless list, a bawug thing <http://www.bawug.org/>
>> [un]subscribe: http://lists.bawug.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>
> --  
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ---
> Joel Jaeggli	      Academic User Services   [email-masked]
> --    PGP Key Fingerprint: 1DE9 8FCA 51FB 4195 B42A 9C32 A30D 121E      
>  --
>   In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last
>   resort of the scoundrel.  With all due respect to an enlightened but
>   inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first.
> 	   	            -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
>
>
> --
> general wireless list, a bawug thing <http://www.bawug.org/>
> [un]subscribe: http://lists.bawug.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>
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---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 22:02:21 -0800 (PST)

um... the internet routing architecture didn't explode in 1997 becuase 
we'd didn't do this. meshed network edges need an igp, some sanity and 
cooperative upstreams, otherwise you'll just have a very large very messy 
subnet with not external routing.

joelja 

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Joel Jaeggli	      Academic User Services   [email-masked]    
--    PGP Key Fingerprint: 1DE9 8FCA 51FB 4195 B42A 9C32 A30D 121E      --
  In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last
  resort of the scoundrel.  With all due respect to an enlightened but
  inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first.
	   	            -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"