Subject: Proposed charter change

From: Cyrus Daboo <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 11:00:30 -0400

Hi folks,
Below is a proposal for a new charter for the working group based on 
discussions at this weeks IETF meeting.

Please review this and comment.

We would like to see a "show of hands" from implementers on each of the new 
extensions being proposed so that we can judge the interest in each.

Note that we will need document authors/editors to step up for items (3) 
and (4) if we are to include these.

Once the WG has discussed this and decided on exactly what we will work on, 
Alexey and I will propose some milestones. I am hoping that we can complete 
all this work in 12 - 18 months. Note that some of the new drafts are 
already close to last call.

This is all subject to AD and IESG approval, of course.

---
The SIEVE email filtering language is specified in RFC 5228, together with 
a number of extensions.

The SIEVE working group is being re-chartered to:

(1) Finish work on existing in-progress Working Group documents:

	(a) Body (draft-ietf-sieve-body-07.txt)
	(b) Notify mailto (draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto.txt)
	(c) Edit header (draft-ietf-sieve-editheader-10.txt)
	(d) Mime loops (draft-ietf-sieve-mime-loop-04.txt)
	(e) Refuse/reject (draft-ietf-sieve-refuse-reject-06.txt)

(2) Finalize and publish the following SIEVE extensions as proposed 
standards:

	(a) Date/Index (draft-freed-sieve-date-index-08.txt)
	(b) iHave (draft-freed-sieve-ihave-01.txt)
	(c) Environment (draft-freed-sieve-environment-03.txt)
	(d) Notary (draft-freed-sieve-notary-01.txt)
	(e) SIEVE in XML (draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-01.txt)
	(f) Notify-sip (draft-melnikov-sieve-notify-sip-message-01.txt)
	(g) ManageSIEVE (draft-martin-managesieve-08.txt)
	(h) RegEx (draft-ietf-sieve-regex-00.txt)
	(j) Meta-data (draft-melnikov-sieve-imapext-metadata-03.txt)
	(k) Include/multi-script (draft-daboo-sieve-include-05.txt)
	(k) Address data (draft-melnikov-sieve-external-lists-01)

Additional drafts may be added to this list, but only via a charter
revision. There must also be demonstrable willingness in the SIEVE
development community to actually implement a given extension before
it can be added to this charter.

(3) Work on a "Benefits of SIEVE" guide for client and server vendors that:
	(a) Describes the SIEVE protocol and its suite of extensions.
	(b) Explains the benefits of server-side filtering in practical terms.
	(c) Shows how client-side filtering can be migrated to SIEVE.

(4) Produce one or more informational RFCs containing a set of test scripts 
and test email messages that are to be filtered by the scripts, and the 
expected results of that filtering. This will serve as the basis of a 
interoperability test suite to help determine the suitability of moving the 
base specification and selected extensions to Draft status.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

---

From: Ned Freed <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 08:44:43 -0700 (PDT)

> extensions being proposed so that we can judge the interest in each.

OK...

> 	(a) Body (draft-ietf-sieve-body-07.txt)

Partial implementation likely, full implementation unlikely - too expensive
computationally.

> 	(b) Notify mailto (draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto.txt)

We already implement the old draft of this. An update to the current draft is
planned.

> 	(c) Edit header (draft-ietf-sieve-editheader-10.txt)

Already implemented.

> 	(d) Mime loops (draft-ietf-sieve-mime-loop-04.txt)

Partially implemented. Full implementation likely.

> 	(e) Refuse/reject (draft-ietf-sieve-refuse-reject-06.txt)

Already implemented.

> 	(a) Date/Index (draft-freed-sieve-date-index-08.txt)

Already implemented.

> 	(b) iHave (draft-freed-sieve-ihave-01.txt)

Already implemented.

> 	(c) Environment (draft-freed-sieve-environment-03.txt)

Already implemented.

> 	(d) Notary (draft-freed-sieve-notary-01.txt)

Will be implemented once specification is completed.

> 	(e) SIEVE in XML (draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-01.txt)

Already implemented.

> 	(f) Notify-sip (draft-melnikov-sieve-notify-sip-message-01.txt)

Unlikely to implement.

> 	(g) ManageSIEVE (draft-martin-managesieve-08.txt)

Implementation in progress.

> 	(h) RegEx (draft-ietf-sieve-regex-00.txt)

Already implemented, but will probably need i18n work.

> 	(j) Meta-data (draft-melnikov-sieve-imapext-metadata-03.txt)

Under investigation.

> 	(k) Include/multi-script (draft-daboo-sieve-include-05.txt)

We use the multiple script approach instead and this doesn't reallly fit
our storage model. Unlikely to implement but this may change depending
on how the draft progresses.

> 	(k) Address data (draft-melnikov-sieve-external-lists-01)

Not implemented yet but next on the to-do list.

				Ned

---

From: "Nigel Swinson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 16:16:25 -0000

> (a) Body (draft-ietf-sieve-body-07.txt)
yes
> (b) Notify mailto (draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto.txt)
no plan
> (c) Edit header (draft-ietf-sieve-editheader-10.txt)
yes
> (d) Mime loops (draft-ietf-sieve-mime-loop-04.txt)
yes
> (e) Refuse/reject (draft-ietf-sieve-refuse-reject-06.txt)
ish

> (a) Date/Index (draft-freed-sieve-date-index-08.txt)
no plan
> (b) iHave (draft-freed-sieve-ihave-01.txt)
no plan
> (c) Environment (draft-freed-sieve-environment-03.txt)
no plan
> (d) Notary (draft-freed-sieve-notary-01.txt)
no plan
> (e) SIEVE in XML (draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-01.txt)
no plan
> (f) Notify-sip (draft-melnikov-sieve-notify-sip-message-01.txt)
no plan
> (g) ManageSIEVE (draft-martin-managesieve-08.txt)
no plan
> (h) RegEx (draft-ietf-sieve-regex-00.txt)
ish
> (j) Meta-data (draft-melnikov-sieve-imapext-metadata-03.txt)
no plan
> (k) Include/multi-script (draft-daboo-sieve-include-05.txt)
no plan
> (k) Address data (draft-melnikov-sieve-external-lists-01)
ish

Cheers

Nigel

---

From: Alexey Melnikov <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 16:52:37 +0000

Speaking as an implementor:

>     (a) Body (draft-ietf-sieve-body-07.txt)

Will implement.

>     (b) Notify mailto (draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto.txt)

Undecided, but will consider implementing

>     (c) Edit header (draft-ietf-sieve-editheader-10.txt)

Will implement

>     (d) Mime loops (draft-ietf-sieve-mime-loop-04.txt)

Will implement

>     (e) Refuse/reject (draft-ietf-sieve-refuse-reject-06.txt)

Older version already implemented.

>     (a) Date/Index (draft-freed-sieve-date-index-08.txt)

Will implement

>     (b) iHave (draft-freed-sieve-ihave-01.txt)

This looks very interesting, but I haven't even started thinking about 
how difficult this would be to implement.

>     (c) Environment (draft-freed-sieve-environment-03.txt)

Will implement

>     (d) Notary (draft-freed-sieve-notary-01.txt)

Will implement

>     (e) SIEVE in XML (draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-01.txt)

This looks interesting, even though there is no immediate plan to implement.

>     (f) Notify-sip (draft-melnikov-sieve-notify-sip-message-01.txt)

I haven't thought about implementing this yet.

>     (g) ManageSIEVE (draft-martin-managesieve-08.txt)

Implemented.

>     (h) RegEx (draft-ietf-sieve-regex-00.txt)

I am not sure this will be implemented, no customer requirements so far.

>     (j) Meta-data (draft-melnikov-sieve-imapext-metadata-03.txt)

Will implement.

>     (k) Include/multi-script (draft-daboo-sieve-include-05.txt)

I've started implementing something like multiscript and will be looking 
at include.
So this looks interesting to me.

>     (k) Address data (draft-melnikov-sieve-external-lists-01)

Will implement.

> (4) Produce one or more informational RFCs containing a set of test 
> scripts and test email messages that are to be filtered by the 
> scripts, and the expected results of that filtering. This will serve 
> as the basis of a interoperability test suite to help determine the 
> suitability of moving the base specification and selected extensions 
> to Draft status.

I will definitely participate in this effort, but I can't commit to be 
an editor.

---

From: "Mark E. Mallett" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 14:17:16 -0400

> extensions being proposed so that we can judge the interest in each.
  ...

> 	(a) Body (draft-ietf-sieve-body-07.txt)
not yet, might implement some of it.  But enough of it doesn't match my
worldview (or perhaps my code's worldview) that implementing all of it
will be problematic.

> 	(b) Notify mailto (draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto.txt)
not yet, probably will

> 	(c) Edit header (draft-ietf-sieve-editheader-10.txt)
have implemented an older draft, need to validate against this one.
Also still have "replaceheader" and probably won't remove it.

> 	(d) Mime loops (draft-ietf-sieve-mime-loop-04.txt)
possibly, but again with the worldview issues (as noted on-list in past)

> 	(e) Refuse/reject (draft-ietf-sieve-refuse-reject-06.txt)
intend to, at which point I'll find out about any problems I guess.

> 	(a) Date/Index (draft-freed-sieve-date-index-08.txt)
intend to.

> 	(b) iHave (draft-freed-sieve-ihave-01.txt)
will implement, looks very nice.

> 	(c) Environment (draft-freed-sieve-environment-03.txt)
will implement.

> 	(f) Notify-sip (draft-melnikov-sieve-notify-sip-message-01.txt)
I confess that I haven't looked at these close enough.

> 	(g) ManageSIEVE (draft-martin-managesieve-08.txt)
is in the queue, but low priority.

> 	(h) RegEx (draft-ietf-sieve-regex-00.txt)
had not seen this one, but have implemented against
draft-murchison-sieve-regex-08.txt .  (I have also implemented the
quoteregex function, but in a different way; I'll probably add this
style as well.)  I think regex draft could benefit with some
enhancements (such as alternate regex expression methods).

hmm, no (i) ?

> 	(j) Meta-data (draft-melnikov-sieve-imapext-metadata-03.txt)
am unaware of this

> 	(k) Include/multi-script (draft-daboo-sieve-include-05.txt)
I'm not happy with the kind of include this specifies, so probably won't
implement it (and already have other include mechanism).

> 	(k) Address data (draft-melnikov-sieve-external-lists-01)
[oh, that's what happened to (i) :) ]

Will probably implement at least a subset of this - probably limited to
the opaque identifier form, as I'm not too keen on implementing
URL-following.  Unless I'm misreading the intent of that.

mm

---

From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 11:00:00 +0100

Cyrus Daboo writes:
> We would like to see a "show of hands" from implementers on each of 
> the new extensions being proposed so that we can judge the interest 
> in each.

OK. Other comments also below.

> Note that we will need document authors/editors to step up for items 
> (3) and (4) if we are to include these.

I already have done some work on 4...

> The SIEVE email filtering language is specified in RFC 5228, together 
> with a number of extensions.
>

Have.

>        (b) Notify mailto (draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto.txt)

Unlikely. (We'll do notify and some of its children, but I don't feel 
good about notifying about email messages using other email messages, 
so mailto isn't an implementation candidate yet.)

>        (c) Edit header (draft-ietf-sieve-editheader-10.txt)

Very likely.

>        (d) Mime loops (draft-ietf-sieve-mime-loop-04.txt)

Will do.

>        (e) Refuse/reject (draft-ietf-sieve-refuse-reject-06.txt)

Have older version, will update. (Have updated? I'd have to check.)

>        (a) Date/Index (draft-freed-sieve-date-index-08.txt)

Have.

>        (b) iHave (draft-freed-sieve-ihave-01.txt)

Likely.

>        (c) Environment (draft-freed-sieve-environment-03.txt)

Very likely.

>        (d) Notary (draft-freed-sieve-notary-01.txt)

Very likely.

>        (e) SIEVE in XML (draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-01.txt)

Yes or no. We'll do Sieve in XML, but I don't know whether we'll do it 
that way. I don't see any reason to do it differently, but if one 
appears...

>        (f) Notify-sip (draft-melnikov-sieve-notify-sip-message-01.txt)

Likely.

>        (g) ManageSIEVE (draft-martin-managesieve-08.txt)

Have.

>        (h) RegEx (draft-ietf-sieve-regex-00.txt)

Unlikely.

>        (j) Meta-data (draft-melnikov-sieve-imapext-metadata-03.txt)

Don't know.

>        (k) Include/multi-script (draft-daboo-sieve-include-05.txt)

Include is uncertain. (Our code is developing along the lines of Jutta's 
expired multiscript document, though, so who knows.)

>        (k) Address data (draft-melnikov-sieve-external-lists-01)

Uncertain... more likely no than yes.

> it can be added to this charter.

FWIW, we'll do one other extension, but I think I'll talk more about 
that only when we have code.

>        (c) Shows how client-side filtering can be migrated to SIEVE.

Laudable, I'm sure, but my only comment is that I know little about a 
little and almost nothing about the rest.

> suitability of moving the base specification and selected extensions 

I did some work on that last summer, which I sent to Barry (and Alexey? 
don't remember any more). I'd be willing to continue that on my own.

Arnt

---

From: Michael Haardt <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 12:27:01 +0100

> 	(b) Notify mailto (draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto.txt)

Implemented, following drafts closely.

> 	(e) Refuse/reject (draft-ietf-sieve-refuse-reject-06.txt)

I would love to implement that, but I am afraid it requires substantial
design changes in Exim, which has always accepted the mail at the time
a filter runs.  It is very unlikely anybody implements that in Exim 4,
but that's a problem with Exim, not with the draft.

> 	(k) Address data (draft-melnikov-sieve-external-lists-01)

None of these are implemented or and I don't plan to implement any
on my own.  We only require a minimal Sieve implementation.  SIP and
XMPP notification methods might become interesting, though, but not at
this time.

Michael

---

From: Ken Murchison <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 08:56:02 -0400

Cyrus Daboo wrote:

> We would like to see a "show of hands" from implementers on each of the 
> new extensions being proposed so that we can judge the interest in each.

Here's what CMU currently has implemented and what I'm thinking about 
the rest.

>     (a) Body (draft-ietf-sieve-body-07.txt)

Done.  Will update if necessary.

>     (b) Notify mailto (draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto.txt)

Need to update to latest notify architecture and then fix mailto.

>     (d) Mime loops (draft-ietf-sieve-mime-loop-04.txt)

Not sure if we'd do either of these short term.

>     (e) Refuse/reject (draft-ietf-sieve-refuse-reject-06.txt)

Will update to whatever is appropriate at the LMTP injection point.

>     (a) Date/Index (draft-freed-sieve-date-index-08.txt)

Will probably give this a good look.

>     (b) iHave (draft-freed-sieve-ihave-01.txt)

Already have a patch floating around.

>     (c) Environment (draft-freed-sieve-environment-03.txt)

Will probably give this a good look.

>     (f) Notify-sip (draft-melnikov-sieve-notify-sip-message-01.txt)

Not sure if we'd do any of these short term.  XML would probably be at 
the top of the list.

>     (g) ManageSIEVE (draft-martin-managesieve-08.txt)

Done.

>     (h) RegEx (draft-ietf-sieve-regex-00.txt)

Done.  Will update accordingly.

>     (j) Meta-data (draft-melnikov-sieve-imapext-metadata-03.txt)

Not at the top of my list.

>     (k) Include/multi-script (draft-daboo-sieve-include-05.txt)

Done.

>     (k) Address data (draft-melnikov-sieve-external-lists-01)

Will have to think about this some more.

-- 
Kenneth Murchison
Systems Programmer
Project Cyrus Developer/Maintainer
Carnegie Mellon University

---

From: Barry Leiba <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 14:38:02 -0400

> Please review this and comment.

I think the proposed recharter is fine.

> new extensions being proposed so that we can judge the interest in each.

I'm currently out of the loop of implementing.  While I'd like to change 
that, it's not likely with my current set of projects.  I don't know 
what plans, if any, the product divisions here have for Sieve.

>     (c) Shows how client-side filtering can be migrated to SIEVE.

I'll happily co-author this, and perhaps take a stab at a first draft. 
One or two co-authors would be nice.

Barry