Subject: RE: [Sipping] I-D ACTION:draft-fujimoto-sipping-header-lang-00.txt

From: "Eric Burger" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:33:26 -0400

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of
> Henning Schulzrinne
> Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 8:45 AM
[snip]
> I would prefer a solution that more closely fits the rest of the SIP 
> model, where possible. This is just another parameter describing header 
> information, so each header should be tagged, as in
> 
> From: "Gerhard Schroeder" <[email-masked]> ;lang="de"
> 
> and
> 
> Contact:  contact1;lang="de", contact2;lang="fr"
> 
> By definition, unknown parameters are ignored. This seems far less 
> complicated and easier to parse, without having to do look-ahead. The 
> only (relevant) header this does not work for is Subject, since it 
> doesn't take parameters. There seem to be a number of kludges:
> 
> - Subject-Language (modeled after Content-Language)
> - Header-Language (default for all headers unless overridden by ;lang 
> parameters, as above)
[snip]

Would this work for mixed-language Subject: ?
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---

From: Henning Schulzrinne <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 16:52:15 -0400

> Would this work for mixed-language Subject: ?

I don't think so, unless you want to do something really awful like

Subject-Language: 1 ;lang=jp , 20 ;lang=en

where the English-language part starts at character 20.

I suspect if mixed-language Subject headers are really such an important 
concern that a better solution is to define a new Subject-like header 
that is ignored by "old" systems, as in:

Subject: Merci, said the Ober
Subject-I18N: <lang=fr>Merci</>, <lang=en>said the</> <lang=de>Ober</>

On the other hand: As noted in an earlier version of this discussion, 
the likelihood that any user is going to go through the trouble of 
marking up language in their Subject header is pretty close to zero, in 
my view. (It's a bit different for headers that are configured once, 
like From, Contact or Organization, where users might be willing to do 
more work.) At best, this will work with automatically generated messages.

---

From: Rohan Mahy <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 08:47:04 -0700

On Wednesday, October 2, 2002, at 01:52 PM, Henning Schulzrinne wrote:

>>> - Header-Language (default for all headers unless overridden by 
>>> ;lang parameters, as above)
>> [snip]
> I suspect if mixed-language Subject headers are really such an 
> important concern that a better solution is to define a new 
> Subject-like header that is ignored by "old" systems, as in:
>
> marking up language in their Subject header is pretty close to zero, 
> in my view.

mixed-language subjects could also be more likely when pasted from 
somewhere else (ex: a webpage, quote, or email).  also the chances that 
a CJK user selects a language is more likely as it would effect the 
font used to display the text.

thanks,
-rohan

> (It's a bit different for headers that are configured once, like From, 
> Contact or Organization, where users might be willing to do more 
> work.) At best, this will work with automatically generated messages.
>
>

---

From: Henning Schulzrinne <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 11:49:58 -0400

> a CJK user selects a language is more likely as it would effect the font 
> used to display the text.
> 

Good point - but what cut-and-pasted text strings would have enough 
information for mixed-language (as opposed to single-language) tagging?

---

From: "David R. Oran" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 13:06:53 -0400

Given how long this thread has gone on, perhaps it's time for an 
off-the-wall suggestion.

Don't bother with language tagging the subject header at all; instead, 
create a new header of the form:

Subject-in-body: <which mime body is the subject>

and just use a pre-internationalized MIME content type.

Dave.

--On Wednesday, October 02, 2002 4:52 PM -0400 Henning Schulzrinne 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> On the other hand: As noted in an earlier version of this discussion, the
> likelihood that any user is going to go through the trouble of marking up
> language in their Subject header is pretty close to zero, in my view.
> Contact or Organization, where users might be willing to do more work.)
> At best, this will work with automatically generated messages.
>
>

------------------------
David R. Oran
Cisco Systems
7 Ladyslipper Lane
Acton, MA 01720
Office: +1 978 264 2048
VoIP: +1 408 571 4576
Email: [email-masked]

---

From: Rohan Mahy <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:25:38 -0700

Dave,

You are just pushing the problem around.  You'd still need 
language-tagging in the body or some comparable solution.

thanks,
-rohan

On Thursday, October 3, 2002, at 10:06 AM, David R. Oran wrote:

>> important
>> the
>> work.)