Subject: RE: [Sipping] Kill Overlap Dialling

From: "Mark Watson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:32:56 +0100

Henry,

Of course, if it looks and feels like a mobile phone, there may indeed be
people who expect it to work like a mobile phone. And with mobile phones
there is a big pay-off for the user (mobility) which mitigates various
negative performance aspects (e.g. connection time, voice quality).

But if it looks and feels like a good old-fashioned phone then (some) people
may expect it to behave like a good old fashioned phone.

My point is that it is not for us to decide how important these people are
but just to provide the technology which allows such potential requirements
to be met if there is market demand.

You say these people are not important, or can be re-educated, but there are
Service Providers who feel (i) these people are important and (ii) the
technical barrier is lower/less important than the re-education barrier.

...Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: 28 August 2003 14:25
To: Watson, Mark [MOP:EP10:EXCH]; 'Christian Stredicke'; 'sipping'
Subject: RE: [Sipping] Kill Overlap Dialling

>You can try selling this kind of thing in Europe
>without overlap, but expect reviewers to complain about connection times.

Are they buying mobile phones nevertheless?

Henry

________________________________________
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of
Mark Watson
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 11:13 AM
To: 'Christian Stredicke'; 'sipping'
Subject: RE: [Sipping] Kill Overlap Dialling

Pleeeeeease don't start this again ... 
I don't think the reasons for overlap dialling, which we discussed for a
looooooong time, very painfully, have changed significantly. As for
end-of-dialling keys on SIP phones, I'd be surprised if anyone on this list
had not seen sipphone.com. You can try selling this kind of thing in Europe
without overlap, but expect reviewers to complain about connection times.
They will not always realise that most of it is the inter-digit timer. You
can certainly change user behaviour if you explain to them that it works
differently from an old-style phone & if there is something in it for the
user as well. But if it 'looks and feels' just like a phone there will
always be people who expect it to work just like a phone. Service providers
& the market, not IETF, should decide how important those people are.
...Mark 
-----Original Message----- 
From: Christian Stredicke [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: 26 August 2003 06:37 
To: 'sipping' 
Subject: [Sipping] Kill Overlap Dialling 

Hi All, 
the feedback which I received so far on overlap dialling was pretty 
clear: There will be no overlap dialling support for SIP. 
Arguments: 
A. ENUM does not support overlap dialling. There are security concerns on
who will own the nodes of incomplete numbers and it was also reported that
the overhead for the node lookup is too much. B. Countries with fixed-length
numbers (like USA) can have a dial plan on the phone. Other countries always
need to press the dial button except for cases where extension numbers are
dialled. People calling from the US have to press a dial key (or #) after
dialling a non-US number. That is accepted by the customers. C. The lack of
support of 484 responses on PSTN gateways makes overlap dialling unusable
anyway. A SIP extension would be necessary, but does not exist at this time
and the probability that we reach consensus on such an extension in time is
minimal. 
D. "Grandma" is not in the customer focus any more. "Grandchildren" are used
to cell phones and press the dial button after making up their minds on
which person to call. E. Phones without display will not be sold in large
numbers any more. If vendors should decide to make SIP phones without
display, they must include a dial button (timeout of 5 seconds to start
dialling is not feasible as this makes printed telephone book lookup
impossible).

Am I right? I this is so, we would like to stop efforts on implementing this
in out endpoints. 
Best, 

Christian 

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---

From: Henry Sinnreich <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:57:45 -0500

I am not sure why we have to keep the "good old fashioned phone" as a
business target or technological icon. Instead of driving by looking in the
rear view mirror, we should rather address all those users gobbling up
mobile phones and integrated enterprise communications and applications,
such as in Microsoft Office 2003 or Siemens Openscape.

Using overlap dialing from the PC/laptop/PDA/smart-phone/mobile phone? Would
you?

Excuse me for mentioning a few commercial products...

Henry

________________________________________
From: Mark Watson [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 9:33 AM
To: 'Henry Sinnreich'; 'Christian Stredicke'; 'sipping'
Subject: RE: [Sipping] Kill Overlap Dialling

Henry, 

-----Original Message----- 
From: Christian Stredicke [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: 26 August 2003 06:37 
To: 'sipping' 
Subject: [Sipping] Kill Overlap Dialling 
Hi All, 

_______________________________________________
Sipping mailing list  https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping
This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP
Use [email-masked] for questions on current sip
Use [email-masked] for new developments of core SIP