Subject: RE: [P2PSIP] Re: [P2Prg] RE: [Sipping] Simple SIP usage scenario

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 07:37:57 +0200

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.8BBEF331"This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

M5vZGVzIHRoYXQgYXJl

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_______________________________________________
Sipping mailing list  https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping
This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP
Use [email-masked] for questions on current sip
Use [email-masked] for new developments of core SIP

---

From: "Henry Sinnreich" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 09:24:35 -0700

Colin, Paul,

Thanks for raising the valid issue about service assurance. 

As engineers, we know the service assurance is more than a piece of
legal paper and must be based on the following:

-          Adequate bandwidth,

-          Geographic diversity,

-          Simplicity; so things can be managed,

-          Security that can be audited,

-          Safe data retention: Replication and the geographic diversity
of peer nodes of the overlay,

-          Economy of scale: All peers have software with identical
behavior,

-          No configuration is required or possible. The customer just
plugs in the gateway box. This is real service automation.

-          Cost containment: P2P self configuration is unbeatable. Count
all the savings in CAPEX and OPEX by not having any network based VoIP
infrastructure. Save all that electricity and real estate in the data
centers.

-          Flexibility for new applications: The API between SIP and the
DHT overlay,

-          No lock-in from single source: The applications are in the
endpoints. Buy them from anywhere.

-          Automatic updates from the application provider: This is
current PC SW state of the art and works for both the (1) P2P software
in the access device and (2) for the application software, such as
presence, IM, voice, multimedia, etc. No or minimal is staff required.

-          Last but not least, besides SIP enabled communications, the
overlay can also serve for many other applications for your users:
Content distribution, application layer multicast for conferences,
directory search, IM+A/V chat rooms, name services, etc.

All of the above can be easily implemented by porting well documented
open source software into the residential access box or in the
integrated access device (IAD) for enterprises. Just check out
http://opendht.org/ and other similar sites.

Please don't take my word for it, just make for yourself a comparison
table for your network. If you can't share the comparison with the list,
can you share it with me in private? :-)

*       as an employee of a carrier

I worked most of my career for carriers, so that's what prompted the
above considerations.

Thanks, Henry

________________________________

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:38 AM
To: [email-masked]; Henry Sinnreich
Cc: [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked];
[email-masked]
Subject: RE: [P2PSIP] Re: [P2Prg] RE: [Sipping] Simple SIP usage
scenario

Henry,

I like your idea of deploying sip peers in edge devices. However, as an
employee of a carrier I would like to see how a carrier is able to
provide service asurance to be able to provide compliant handling. Many
of our customers do not understand how to install these gateways
themselves, let alone how to troubleshoot.

This is even more important for enterprises, which often  insist on SLAs
which include troubleshoot resolution limits.

-----Original Message-----
From: "Paul Kyzivat" <[email-masked]>
To: "Henry Sinnreich" <[email-masked]>
Cc: "P2PSIP Mailing List" <[email-masked]>; "Michael Hammer (mhammer)"
<[email-masked]>; "David R Oran" <[email-masked]>; "[email-masked]"
<[email-masked]>; "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Sent: 3-4-07 01:11
Subject: [P2PSIP] Re: [P2Prg] RE: [Sipping] Simple SIP usage scenario

Henry Sinnreich wrote:
> Paul,
>
>> I more or less agree with the final conclusion below.
>
> This is good starting point to discuss some usage scenarios.
>
> Putting on my former hat as an employee for a carrier, I cannot
overlook
> the following:
>
> P2P SIP implemented correctly in the residential access box or cable
> set-top box indeed is a good or better replacement for the entire VoIP
> network infrastructure (cost, operations, new services, etc).
> Integrated access devices for the enterprise can probably play a
similar
> role, not to mention existing P2P PBX products (please refer to all
the
> advantages of P2P that need not repeated here).
>
> What do people think of these three usage scenarios for P2P SIP:
> - SIP peer in the DSL access device,
> - SIP peer in the cable access device,

These seem quite reasonable, assuming that a device connected at this
point is able to function properly as a peer. (I haven't been following
what the assumptions are about required network capabilities of peers.)

> - SIP peer in enterprise network integrated access device (IAD).

I think this depends greatly on what expectations / contractual
guarantees the enterprise has. Its unclear to me what guarantees can be
made about a P2PSIP network will be able to make, and its unclear what
kind of infrastructure would be installed by/for someone willing to make
guarantees.

        Paul

https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip

---

Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 07:44:08 -0700

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
all enterprises. The big difference between C/S SIP and P2PSIP is =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
automation. What is true is that the square peg in round hole of =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
overloading DNS makes deployments clumsy and brittle within the =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
enterprise domain and completely unmanageable and unpublishable outside =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
the firewall which is why the buck stops there in current enterprise =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
networking products.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
The difference between C/S and P2P is la<st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName>ely
policy and semantics with <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
the biggest difference being that the decisions and rules are highly =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
distributed.&nbsp; Apart from that they are not just friends, they are =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
fraternal twins.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
Michael Slavitch<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
corp_2colour <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
&lt;https://firewall.objectworld.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=3Dhttp://w=
ww.objectworld.com/&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
all enterprises. The big difference between C/S SIP and P2PSIP is =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
automation. What is true is that the square peg in round hole of =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
overloading DNS makes deployments clumsy and brittle within the =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
enterprise domain and completely unmanageable and unpublishable outside =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
the firewall which is why the buck stops there in current enterprise =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
networking products.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
The difference between C/S and P2P is la<st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName>ely
policy and semantics with <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
the biggest difference being that the decisions and rules are highly =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
distributed.&nbsp; Apart from that they are not just friends, they are =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
fraternal twins.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
Michael Slavitch<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
corp_2colour <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
&lt;https://firewall.objectworld.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=3Dhttp://w=
ww.objectworld.com/&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11 service assurance (was Simple SIP usage scenario)
From: "Henry Sinnreich" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked],
	[email-masked]
Subject: [Sipping] P2P SIP service assurance (was Simple SIP usage scenario)

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Colin, Paul,

=20

Thanks for raising the valid issue about service assurance.=20

=20

-          Adequate bandwidth,

-          Geographic diversity,

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

Thanks, Henry

=20

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:38 AM
To: [email-masked]; Henry Sinnreich
Cc: [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<st1:Street w:st=3D"on"><st1:address w:st=3D"on">308 Legget =
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
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w:st=3D"on">Canada</st1:country-region></st1:place><o:p></o:p></span></fo=
nt></p>

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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
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Michael =
Slavitch&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
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<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
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Lead, Technology Initiatives<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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[email-masked] =
&lt;mailto:[email-masked]&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalib.0pt'>&gt;
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">Ottawa</st1:City> =
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
K2K 1Y6 <st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:country-region =
w:st=3D"on">Canada</st1:country-region></st1:place><o:p></o:p></span></fo=
nt></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
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Slavitch&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
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Lead, Technology Initiatives<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibm; [email-masked];
[email-masked]
Subject: RE: [P2PSIP] Re: [P2Prg] RE: [Sipping] Simple SIP usage
scenario

=20

Henry,

-----Original Message-----
From: "Paul Kyzivat" <[email-masked]>
To: "Henry Sinnreich" <[email-masked]>
Cc: "P2PSIP Mailing List" <[email-masked]>; "Michael Hammer (mhammer)"

overlook
similar
the

        Paul

> Note that these examples imply very low churn for the peers and add
the
> data retention resilience of P2P (geographic diversity is native and
> mobile, etc.). Incidentally, NAT traversal may also not be a problem,
or
> at least an easier problem.
>
> What do you all think?
>
> I have taken the liberty to copy the P2P SIP list, since the low churn
> scenarios are of interest for the DHT selection. Or just pick the same
> DHT for all scenarios anyway? I don't think so.
>
> Thanks, Henry
>
>
> From: Paul Kyzivat [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 6:31 PM
> To: Eunsoo Shim
> Cc: Henry Sinnreich; Michael Hammer (mhammer); David R Oran;
> [email-masked]; [email-masked]; zhuxian
> Subject: Re: [P2Prg] RE: [Sipping] Simple SIP usage scenario
>
> My main point here is that P2P and C/S need not be enemies. Nor is a
> total C/S system necessarily evil. What is most evil is *bundling* of
> services that prevents freedom of choice.
>
> I think I would be quite happy with a SP that provides a
registrar/proxy
>
> and allows me to provide all other features as I see fit - by taking
> them ala carte from the SP, or subscribing to them from one or more
> other SPs, or by providing them myself via appliances I own. If that
> registrar/proxy was replaced by a P2P sip community, the differences,
if
>
> any, would hopefully be more a function of the implementation and the
> business models of those involved than the architecture.
>
> (I gather the general assumption is that a P2P setup will be *free*.
But
>
> I have a hard time believing that. If most of the usage is by mobile
> devices that can't be peers, thri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
+1.613.599.7457<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
Skype:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Objectworld <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
&lt;https://firewall.objectworld.com/exchange/slavitch/Sent%20Items/Norte=
l,%20MSFT%20chase%20carriers%20with%20new%20hosted%20offering%20for%20SME=
%20and%20MME.EML/&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
x225<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=en somebody will have to pay for enough
> peers to support them. If it isn't free, then how is it better than a
> well engineered C/S system?)
>
> So I think the key thing here is that some features will require
getting
>
> some help from another node. There ought to be the option to pick a
> different source for each helper you require, and an ability for it
all
> to play together.
>
>       Paul
>
> Eunsoo Shim wrote:
>> Please see my inline comment.
>>
>> On 3/30/07, *Paul Kyzivat* <[email-masked]
>> <mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>     Henry Sinnreich wrote:
>>      > David Oran wrote (with regard to voice mail):
>>      >
>>      >> I'm not saying this can't be made to work, only that it isn't
>>      > immediately >obvious that it has advantages over a classic
>>     application
>>      > server >approach.
>>      >
>>      > The answer for VM is "it depends":
>>      >
>>
>>
>> I agree. It really depends. Certainly there are tradeoffs.
>>
>>      > There are several commercial P2P IP PBX solutions without any
>>     server for
>>      > VM or anything else. No doubt the IT organization appreciates
> just
>>      > having to plug in the IP phones and GWY to the PSTN without
any
>>      > configuration ever for VM or any other PBX feature.
>>
>>     I don't understand. Are you saying they don't have VM, or that
> they
>>     don't have a *server* for VM?
>>
>>
>> I guess they don't have a  *server* for  VM.
>>
>>      > For public P2P SIP networks there are two more scenarios where
> VM can
>>      > reside (and without ever spending one cent on VM servers + IT
>>     systems):
>>      >
>>      > - In Cable and DSL service provider networks: The residential
>>     router can
>>      > act as a voice recorder
>>
>>     That is simply an example of the user having an appliance of his
> own
>>     that provides VM service.
>>
>>      > and P2P can cover the not too frequent cases,
>>      > where the router is not in operation, so the data is backed up
> in
>>     other
>>      > peer residential gateways (encrypted).
>>
>>     I guess I just need to have more info about how this would work
> before I
>>     will be convinced it is feasible and trustworthy.
>>
>>
>> Well, 'trustworthy' could be  considered in many angles.
>> If it is about privacy of the message, a public key based encryption
>> would provide acceptable privacy.
>> If it is about reliability of the message delivery, well, a P2P based
>> asynchronous message delivery (like VM) is most likely less reliable
>> than a well managed server based system.
>> However, my experience with Skype's asynchronous message delivery was
>> not bad. Actually I don't see any significant difference between it
> and
>> my cellular service provider's VM service. :-)
>> Reliability is always a challenge for P2P, for sure. But, I believe
it
>
>> is feasible to build a P2P system for VM acceptable for many
> scenarios.
>>      > - In mobile networks: The VM can reside in quite stable peers
>>     inside the
>>      > wireless base station network. The peers in the base station
> network
>>      > need no configuration, etc.
>>
>>     I don't understand. I guess that could be true if the peers are
> willing
>>     to store an arbitrary amount of VM indefinitely for anybody. Is
> that
>>     believable?
>>
>>
>> It depends.
>> In a very nice environment where all the peers are willing to
> cooperate
>> at their best, the peers will store as much as they can. In a tough
>> environment, the situation will be different.
>>
>>     This seems to translate to a model where it is assumed that those
> nodes
>>     that are on most of the time will be willing to provide VM
storage
> for
>>     those nodes that aren't on most of the time.
>>
>>
>> This is again related to reliability of P2P systems or topics like
> free
>> riders and reputation.
>> A P2P system is a community or society. To be simple, if many of the
>> members are bad, the community won't work well. If the majority of
the
>
>> members are good, the community will work well or reasonably.
>>
>>      > Ad3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
&lt;https://firewall.objectworld.com/exchange/slavitch/Sent%20Items/Norte=
l,%20MSFT%20chase%20carriers%20with%20new%20hosted%20offering%20for%20SME=
%20and%20MME.EML/&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>--
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS<o:p></o:p></span><=
/font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>----------------------------------------------=
--------<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Teach
CanIt if this mail (ID 657805) is spam:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Fo<st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName>et vote: =
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ee55b7&amp;c=3Df<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>----------------------------------------------=
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style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS<o:p></o:p></span></f=
ont></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
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<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
&lt;https://firewall.objectworld.com/exchange/slavitch/Sent%20Items/Norte=
l,%20MSFT%20chase%20carriers%20with%20new%20hosted%20offering%20for%20SME=
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>--
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS<o:p></o:p></span><=
/font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>----------------------------------------------=
--------<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Teach
CanIt if this mail (ID 657805) is spam:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Fo<st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName>et vote: =
http://canitpro-int.objectworld.com/canit/b.php?i=3D657805&amp;m=3D2eb1fd=
ee55b7&amp;c=3Df<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>----------------------------------------------=
--------<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS<o:p></o:p></span></f=
ont></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =d to this the conferencing capability coming from p2p
> application
>>      > layer multicast, the SIP e2e control capabilities (for such as
>>      > auto-attendant, agent workstation, etc.) and one has to wonder
> why IT
>>      > networks, public VoIP networks and end users should support
the
> huge
>>      > cost of hand engineering, testing, monitoring, maintaining
> server
>>     based
>>      > VoIP networks. P2P self configuration is nothing less that
> automation
>>      > applied to VoIP, plus the shifting of computing to the
> endpoints,
>>     where
>>      > there is an abundance of unused CPU, storage, bandwidth and
>>     electricity.
>>      >
>>      > Eric Burger also notes IM changes completely the usage for VM
> and may
>>      > make unnecessary to place calls on VM in the first place.
>>
>>     I find this more promising.
>>
>>         =20
>>
>>
>> In overall, are we discussing if P2P systems based VM can work? I
> think
>> it can work.  Just it depends on many things.
>> If it is not super-reliable, should we disregard it? I would say no.
>>
>> On the other hand, do we have to abandon client server based VM and
>> switch to P2P system based VM? It is upto each of us.
>> Client server based VM systems are already there.
>> So why don't we work on P2P based VM now?
>>=20
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Eunsoo
>

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<a
href=3D"http://canitpro-int.objectworld.com/canit/b.php?i=3D657949&amp;m=3D=
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previous vote</a></span></font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

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style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>This
transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential =
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prohibited. If
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<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Colin, =
Paul,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks for raising the valid issue =
about
service assurance. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>As engineers, we know the service
assurance is more than a piece of legal paper and must be based on the
following:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font size=3D1 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Adequate
bandwidth,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font size=3D1 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Geographic
diversity,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font size=3D1 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Simplicity;
so things can be managed,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font size=3D1 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Security
that <u>can be audited</u>,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoGx8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl5ufo6erx8vP09fb3+Pn6/8QAHwEA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AwEBAQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtREAAgECBAQDBAcFBAQAAQJ3AAECAxEEBSEx
BhJBUQdhcRMiMoEIFEKRobHBCSMzUvAVYnLRChYkNOEl8RcYGRomJygpKjU2Nzg5OkNERUZHSElK
U1RVVldYWVpjZGVmZ2hpanN0dXZ3eHl6goOEhYaHiImKkpOUlZaXmJmaoqOkpaanqKmqsrO0tba3
uLm6wsPExcbHyMnK0tPU1dbX2Nna4uPk5ebn6Onq8vP09fb3+Pn6/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwD1Ga7l
kZ2SdokV2VQgXJwcEnIPcHpVSTW7uHqYHA7bCCfxz/Skuiv9qSwFtitMoA/3gMn8yab/AGWls8lx
qTBbeE5HP+s/z6V4051nJ8j2ervov+AYty6GrpuqQ6lGxQFJE++hPT/EVdrjtEuvN8S+ZEuxJjIS
Pbkj+Qrsa7MDiHXpcz3Tt6lwlzIyNa0hr7E8GPNAwy5xvHb8axbu31G6jSO6W5ZYRwPKbH1JAwTX
Y0VFfAQqyck7X37MUqaZx2k6cf7QheCQMUcFipyFAPOfTjj8a7GiitcLhY4eLinuOMeVH//Z

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dgSsSFyB1IAzXE6N8WNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font size=3D1 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Safe data
retention: Replication and the geographic diversity of peer nodes of the
overlay,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font size=3D1 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Economy
of scale: All peers have software with identical =
behavior,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font size=3D1 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>No
configuration is required or possible. The customer just plugs in the =
gateway
box. This is real service automation.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font size=3D1 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Cost
containment: P2P self configuration is unbeatable. Count all the savings =
in
CAPEX and OPEX by not having any network based VoIP infrastructure. Save =
all
that electricity and real estate in the data =
centers.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font size=3D1 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Flexibility
for new applications: The API between SIP and the DHT =
overlay,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font size=3D1 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>No
lock-in from single source: The applications are in the endpoints. Buy =
them
from anytG1a7tIZNP1GxivZPKt7m4iAikfONu4E9+KAO7oqlqOojThCWtZ5/OkEY8

------=_NextPart_000_1E06_01C7769F.E4C51F70--

--===============0513198450==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

--===============0513198450==--

---

Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 07:44:08 -0700

---

Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 07:44:08 -0700

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font size=3D1 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Automatic
updates from the application provider: This is current PC SW state of =
the art
and works for both the (1) P2P software in the access device and (2) for =
the
application software, such as presence, IM, voice, multimedia, etc. No =
or
minimal is staff required.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font size=3D1 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Last but
not least, besides SIP enabled communications, the overlay can also =
serve for many
other applications for your users: Content distribution, application =
layer
multicast for conferences, directory search, IM+A/V chat rooms, name =
services, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>All of the above can be easily =
implemented
by porting well documented open source software into the residential =
access box
or in the integrated access device (IAD) for enterprises. Just check out =
<a
href=3D"http://opendht.org/">http://opendht.org/</a> and other similar =
sites.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Please don&#8217;t take my word for =
it,
just make for yourself a comparison table for your network. If you =
can&#8217;t
share the comparison with the list, can you share it with me in private? =
</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DWingdings><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Wingdings;color:navy'>J</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span=
></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DWingdings><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Wingdings;color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&Oslash;<font =
size=3D1
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>as an employee of a =
carrier<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I worked most of my career for carriers, so that&#82 service assurance (was Simple SIP usage scenario)
From: "Henry Sinnreich" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked],
	[email-masked]
Subject: [Sipping] P2P SIP service assurance (was Simple SIP usage scenario)

Colin, Paul,

=20

=20

-          Adequate bandwidth,

-          Geographic diversity,

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

Thanks, Henry

=20

Cc: [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked] service assurance (was Simple SIP usage scenario)

Colin, Paul,

=20

=20

-          Adequate bandwidth,

-          Geographic diversity,

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

Thanks, Henry

=20

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:38 AM
To: [email-masked]; Henry Sinnreich
Cc: [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked];s what =
prompted
the above considerations.</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span=
></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks, =
Henry<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
[email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, April =
04, 2007
12:38 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> [email-masked]; =
Henry
Sinnreich<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> =
[email-masked]<st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName>; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; =
<st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">p2p<st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName>@ietf.o<st1:PersonName
 w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName></st1:PersonName>; <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">[email-masked]<st1:PersonName
 w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName></st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [P2PSIP] Re: =
[P2P<st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName>] RE: [Sipping] Simple SIP usage =
scenario</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Henry,<br>
<br>
I like your idea of deploying sip peers in edge devices. However, as an
employee of a carrier I would like to see how a carrier is able to =
provide
service asurance to be able to provide compliant handling. Many of our
customers do not understand how to install these gateways themselves, =
let alone
how to troubleshoot.<br>
<br>
This is even more important for enterprises, which often&nbsp; insist on =
SLAs
which include troubleshoot resolution limits.<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: &quot;<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Paul =
Kyzivat</st1:PersonName>&quot;
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: &quot;Henry Sinnreich&quot; &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Cc: &quot;<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">P2PSIP Mailing =
List</st1:PersonName>&quot;
&lt;[email-masked]<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName>&gt;; =
&quot;<st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">Michael Hammer</st1:PersonName> (mhammer)&quot;
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;; &quot;<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">David R =
<st1:City
 w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Oran</st1:place></st1:City></st1:PersonName>&quot;
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;; &quot;<st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">p2p<st1:PersonName
 w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName>@ietf.o<st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName></st1:PersonName>&quot;
&lt;<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">p2p<st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName>@ietf.o<st1:PersonName
 w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName></st1:PersonName>&gt;; =
&quot;<st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">[email-masked]<st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName></st1:PersonName>&quot;
&lt;<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">[email-masked]<st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName></st1:PersonName>&gt;<br>
Sent: 3-4-07 01:11<br>
Subject: [P2PSIP] Re: [P2P<st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName>] RE:
[Sipping] Simple SIP usage scenario<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Henry m; [email-masked];
[email-masked]
Subject: RE: [P2PSIP] Re: [P2Prg] RE: [Sipping] Simple SIP usage
scenario

=20

Henry,

-----Original Message-----
From: "Paul Kyzivat" <[email-masked]>
To: "Henry Sinnreich" <[email-masked]>
Cc: "P2PSIP Mailing List" <[email-masked]>; "Michael Hammer (mhammer)"

overlook
similar
the

        Paul

the
or
registrar/proxy
if
But
> devices that can't be peers, thm; [email-masked];
[email-masked]

=20

Henry,

-----Original Message-----
From: "Paul Kyzivat" <[email-masked]>
To: "Henry Sinnreich" <[email-masked]>
Cc: "P2PSIP Mailing List" <[email-masked]>; "Michael Hammer (mhammer)"

overlook
similar
the

        Paul

the
or
registrar/proxy
if
But
> devices that can't be peers, thSinnreich wrote:<br>
&gt; Paul,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I more or less agree with the final conclusion below.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This is good starting point to discuss some usage scenarios.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Putting on my former hat as an employee for a carrier, I cannot =
overlook<br>
&gt; the following:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; P2P SIP implemented correctly in the residential access box or =
cable<br>
&gt; set-top box indeed is a good or better replacement for the entire =
VoIP<br>
&gt; network infrastructure (cost, operations, new services, etc).<br>
&gt; Integrated access devices for the enterprise can probably play a =
similar<br>
&gt; role, not to mention existing P2P PBX products (please refer to all =
the<br>
&gt; advantages of P2P that need not repeated here).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; What do people think of these three usage scenarios for P2P =
SIP:<br>
&gt; - SIP peer in the DSL access device,<br>
&gt; - SIP peer in the cable access device,<br>
<br>
These seem quite reasonable, assuming that a device connected at =
this<br>
point is able to function properly as a peer. (I haven't been =
following<br>
what the assumptions are about required network capabilities of =
peers.)<br>
<br>
&gt; - SIP peer in enterprise network integrated access device =
(IAD).<br>
<br>
I think this depends greatly on what expectations / contractual<br>
guarantees the enterprise has. Its unclear to me what guarantees can =
be<br>
made about a P2PSIP network will be able to make, and its unclear =
what<br>
kind of infrastructure would be installed by/for someone willing to =
make<br>
guarantees.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Paul<br>
<br>
&gt; Note that these examples imply very low churn for the peers and add =
the<br>
&gt; data retention resilience of P2P (geographic diversity is native =
and<br>
&gt; mobile, etc.). Incidentally, NAT traversal may also not be a =
problem, or<br>
&gt; at least an easier problem.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; What do you all think?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I have taken the liberty to copy the P2P SIP list, since the low =
churn<br>
&gt; scenarios are of interest for the DHT selection. Or just pick the =
same<br>
&gt; DHT for all scenarios anyway? I don't think so.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks, Henry<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Paul Kyzivat</st1:PersonName> [<a
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">mailto:[email-masked]</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 6:31 PM<br>
&gt; To: <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Eunsoo Shim</st1:PersonName><br>
&gt; Cc: Henry Sinnreich; <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Michael =
Hammer</st1:PersonName>
(mhammer); <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">David R =
Oran</st1:PersonName>;<br>
&gt; <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">p2p<st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName>@ietf.o<st1:PersonName
 w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName></st1:PersonName>; <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">[email-masked]<st1:PersonName
 w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName></st1:PersonName>; zhuxian<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [P2P<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName>] =
RE:
[Sipping] Simple SIP usage scenario<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I more or less agree with the final conclusion below.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; My main point here is that P2P and C/S need not be enemies. Nor is =
a<br>
&gt; total C/S system necessarily evil. What is most evil is *bundling* =
of<br>
&gt; services that prevents freedom of choice.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think I would be quite happy with a SP that provides a =
registrar/proxy<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; and allows me to provide all other features as I see fit - by =
taking<br>
&gt; them ala carte from the SP, or subscribing to them from one or =
more<br>
&gt; other SPs, or by providing them myself via appliances I own. If =
that<br>
&gt; registrar/proxy was replaced by a P2P sip community, the =
differences, if<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; any, would hopefully be more a function of the implementation and =
the<br>
&gt; business models of those involved than the architecture.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; (I gather the general assumption is that a P2P setup will be =
*free*. But<br>
&gt;<br>
&en somebody will have to pay for enough
getting
all
any
it
storage
the
>>      > Aden somebody will have to pay for enough
getting
all
any
it
storage
the
>>      > Adgt; I have a hard time believing that. If most of the usage is by =
mobile<br>
&gt; devices that can't be peers, then somebody will have to pay for =
enough<br>
&gt; peers to support them. If it isn't free, then how is it better than =
a<br>
&gt; well engineered C/S system?)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So I think the key thing here is that some features will require =
getting<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; some help from another node. There ought to be the option to pick =
a<br>
&gt; different source for each helper you require, and an ability for it =
all<br>
&gt; to play together.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Paul<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Eunsoo Shim</st1:PersonName> wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; Please see my inline comment.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 3/30/07, *<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Paul =
Kyzivat</st1:PersonName>*
&lt;[email-masked]<br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">mailto:[email-masked]</a>&gt;&gt;
wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Henry Sinnreich wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; David Oran wrote (with =
regard to
voice mail):<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&gt; I'm not saying this =
can't be
made to work, only that it isn't<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; immediately &gt;obvious that =
it has
advantages over a classic<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; application<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; server &gt;approach.<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; The answer for VM is =
&quot;it
depends&quot;:<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I agree. It really depends. Certainly there are tradeoffs.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; There are several commercial =
P2P IP
PBX solutions without any<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; server for<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; VM or anything else. No =
doubt the
IT o<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName>anization =
appreciates<br>
&gt; just<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; having to plug in the IP =
phones and
GWY to the PSTN without any<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; configuration ever for VM or =
any
other PBX feature.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I don't understand. Are you saying they =
don't
have VM, or that<br>
&gt; they<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; don't have a *server* for VM?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I guess they don't have a&nbsp; *server* for&nbsp; VM.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; For public P2P SIP networks =
there
are two more scenarios where<br>
&gt; VM can<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; reside (and without ever =
spending
one cent on VM servers + IT<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; systems):<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; - In Cable and DSL service =
provider
networks: The residential<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; router can<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; act as a voice recorder<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; That is simply an example of the user =
having
an appliance of his<br>
&gt; own<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that provides VM service.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; and P2P can cover the not =
too
frequent cases,<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; where the router is not in
operation, so the data is backed up<br>
&gt; in<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; other<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; peer residential gateways
(encrypted).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I guess I just need to have more info =
about
how this would work<br>
&gt; before I<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; will be convinced it is feasible and
trustworthy.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;d to this the conferencing capability coming from p2p
the

<head>
@ld to this the conferencing capability coming from p2p
the

<head>
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<title>RE: [P2PSIP] Re: [P2Prg] RE: [Sipping] Simple SIP usage =
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@l Well, 'trustworthy' could be&nbsp; considered in many =
angles.<br>
&gt;&gt; If it is about privacy of the message, a public key based =
encryption<br>
&gt;&gt; would provide acceptable privacy.<br>
&gt;&gt; If it is about reliability of the message delivery, well, a P2P =
based<br>
&gt;&gt; asynchronous message delivery (like VM) is most likely less =
reliable<br>
&gt;&gt; than a well managed server based system.<br>
&gt;&gt; However, my experience with Skype's asynchronous message =
delivery was<br>
&gt;&gt; not bad. Actually I don't see any significant difference =
between it<br>
&gt; and<br>
&gt;&gt; my cellular service provider's VM service. :-)<br>
&gt;&gt; Reliability is always a challenge for P2P, for sure. But, I =
believe it<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; is feasible to build a P2P system for VM acceptable for =
many<br>
&gt; scenarios.<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; - In mobile networks: The VM =
can
reside in quite stable peers<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; inside the<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; wireless base station =
network. The
peers in the base station<br>
&gt; network<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; need no configuration, =
etc.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I don't understand. I guess that could =
be true
if the peers are<br>
&gt; willing<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to store an arbitrary amount of VM
indefinitely for anybody. Is<br>
&gt; that<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; believable?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; It depends.<br>
&gt;&gt; In a very nice environment where all the peers are willing =
to<br>
&gt; cooperate<br>
&gt;&gt; at their best, the peers will store as much as they can. In a =
tough<br>
&gt;&gt; environment, the situation will be different.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This seems to translate to a model =
where it is
assumed that those<br>
&gt; nodes<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that are on most of the time will be =
willing
to provide VM storage<br>
&gt; for<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; those nodes that aren't on most of the =
time.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; This is again related to reliability of P2P systems or topics =
like<br>
&gt; free<br>
&gt;&gt; riders and reputation.<br>
&gt;&gt; A P2P system is a community or society. To be simple, if many =
of the<br>
&gt;&gt; members are bad, the community won't work well. If the majority =
of the<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; members are good, the community will work well or =
reasonably.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Add to this the conferencing
capability coming from p2p<br>
&gt; application<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; layer multicast, the SIP e2e
control capabilities (for such as<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; auto-attendant, agent =
workstation,
etc.) and one has to wonder<br>
&gt; why IT<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; networks, public VoIP =
networks and
end users should support the<br>
&gt; huge<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; cost of hand engineering, =
testing,
monitoring, maintaining<br>
&gt; server<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; based<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; VoIP networks. P2P self
configuration is nothing less that<br>
&gt; automation<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; applied to VoIP, plus the =
shifting
of computing to the<br>
&gt; endpoints,<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; where<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; there is an abundance of =
unused
CPU, storage, bandwidth and<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; electricity.<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Eric Bu<st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName>er
also notes IM changes completely the usage for VM<br>
&gt; and may<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; make unnecessary to place =
calls on
VM in the first place.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I find this more promising.<br>
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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =

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<p class=3DMsoNormal =

<p class=3DMsoist l1:level1
	{mso-level-start-at:0;

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =

<p class=3DMsoNormal =

<p class=3DMsoNormal =

<p class=3DMsoNormal =

<p class=3DMsot;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; In overall, are we discussing if P2P systems based VM can work? =
I<br>
&gt; think<br>
&gt;&gt; it can work.&nbsp; Just it depends on many things.<br>
&gt;&gt; If it is not super-reliable, should we disregard it? I would =
say no.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On the other hand, do we have to abandon client server based VM =
and<br>
&gt;&gt; switch to P2P system based VM? It is upto each of us.<br>
&gt;&gt; Client server based VM systems are already there.<br>
&gt;&gt; So why don't we work on P2P based VM now?<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt; Thanks.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Eunsoo<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
P2PSIP mailing list<br>
[email-masked]<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">rg</st1:PersonName><br>
<a =
href=3D"https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip">https://www1.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

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------_=_NextPart_001_01C776C7.CE6A1169--

--===============1723679838==--

---

From: Adrian Georgescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 09:32:13 +0200

Colin,

With the right P2P software, the devices need no configuration at  
all, the configuration data can be derived from the "hardware id" and  
a preloadedNormal =

<p class=3DMsoNormal =

<p class=3DMsoNormal =

<p class=3DMsoNormal =

<p class=3DMsoNormal =

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
from anyNormal =

<p class=3DMsoNormal =

<p class=3DMsoNormal =

<p class=3DMsoNormal =

<p class=3DMsoNormal =

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<font size=3D1 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>No
lock-in from single source: The applications are in the endpoints. Buy =
them
from any X509 certificate while the mapping between services and  
the hardware can be done centralized and allow the business model the  
operator wishes with minimal opex.

Adrian

On Apr 4, 2007, at 7:37 AM, <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>  
wrote:

> Henry,
>
> I like your idea of deploying sip peers in edge devices. However,  
> as an employee of a carrier I would like to see how a carrier is  
> able to provide service asurance to be able to provide compliant  
> handling. Many of our customers do not understand how to install  
> these gateways themselves, let alone how to troubleshoot.
>
> This is even more important for enterprises, which often  insist on  
> SLAs which include troubleshoot resolution limits.
>
> Cc: "P2PSIP Mailing List" <[email-masked]>; "Michael Hammer  
> (mhammer)" <[email-masked]>; "David R Oran" <[email-masked]>;  
> "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>; "[email-masked]"  
> <[email-masked]>
> Sent: 3-4-07 01:11
> > role, not to mention existing P2P PBX products (please refer to  
> all the
> > Note that these examples imply very low churn for the peers and  
> add the
> > mobile, etc.). Incidentally, NAT traversal may also not be a  
> problem, or
> > regiswhere.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =

<p class=3DMsoNormal =

<p class=3DMsoNormal =

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I worked most of my career for carriers, so that&#82where.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =

<p class=3DMsoNormal =

<p class=3DMsoNormal =

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I worked most of my career for carriers, so that&#82trar/proxy was replaced by a P2P sip community, the  
> differences, if
> > (I gather the general assumption is that a P2P setup will be  
> *free*. But
> >
> > devices that can't be peers, then somebody will have to pay for  
> enough
> > different source for each helper you require, and an ability for  
> it all
> > to play together.
> >
> >       Paul
> >
> > Eunsoo Shim wrote:
> >>      > having to plug in the IP phones and GWY to the PSTN  
> without any
> >> Reliability is always a challenge for P2P, for sure. But, I  
> believe it
> >
> >> In a very nice environment where all the peers are willing 17;s what =
prompted

<div>

</span></font></div>

</div>

Henry 17;s what =

<div>

</span></font></div>

</div>

Henry to
> >> members are bad, the community won't work well. If the majority  
> of the
> >
> >>      > Add to this the conferencing capability coming from p2p
> > application
> >>      > networks, public VoIP networks and end users should  
> support the
> > huge

---

From: Adrian Georgescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 09:32:13 +0200

Colin,

a preloadedt;&gt;<br>

</div>

</body>

</html>

---

From: Adrian Georgescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 09:32:13 +0200

Colin,

With the right P2P software, the devices need no configuration at  
all, the configuration data can be derived from the "hardware id" and  
a preloadedd VM systems are already there.<BR> &gt;&gt; So why =
don't we work on P2P based VM now?<BR> &gt;&gt;=A0<BR> &gt;&gt; =
Thanks.<BR> &gt;&gt;<BR> &gt;&gt; Eunsoo<BR> &gt;<BR> <BR> =
_______________________________________________<BR> P2PSIP mailing =
list<BR> <A href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</A><BR> <A =
href=3D"https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip">https://www1.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/p2psip</A><BR> </FONT> </P><DIV style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">P2PSIP mailing list</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</A></DIV><DIV =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; "><A =
href=3D"https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip">https://www1.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/p2psip</A></DIV> =
</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>=
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