Subject: December WG Minutes

From: "Jim Schaad (Exchange)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:52:36 -0800

Here are the proposed minutes.  Comment if you feel it is necessary.
jim
All,
This message includes the minutes of the IETF S/MIME Working Group (WG) 
meeting held on 9 December 1998 in Orlando, FL. These minutes have been
coordinated with the briefing presenters. All briefing slides are stored
at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/smime/ <ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/smime/> .
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Introductions - Russ Housley
Russ reviewed the agenda. Nobody objected the agenda.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
CMS Draft Discussion - Russ Housley
Russ presented the current status on the CMS draft. The document is
currently in Working Group last call and will remain there until the X9.42
draft has finished its last call. The majority of the comments since the
last meeting have focused on Section 12. (This is the section on algorithms 
and key wrapping support.) The comments received to date have been 
incorporated in draft 10 which should be distributed soon.
Key Wrapping Algorithm: Several changes have been made to the key 
algorithm and some comments on it have been received since the last WG 
meeting. The algorithm has been found to be unsecure with stream cipher 
algorithms and block ciphers in OFB mode. A statement to this effect will
be placed in the document.
Russ stated that several people have asked for a modification to the check
sum algorithm be made. People are worried about the arithmetic nature of 
the algorithm. Additionally, there was a question on moving from 16 to 32 
bits in size. Russ reviewed the key wrap and unwrap algorithms as part of 
this discussion.
Several people indicated that they felt better using the left-most bits of 
a SHA-1 hash rather than the current Fletcher checksum. However, if the 
change was made, the checksum size should be increased to 32 bits. Jim 
Schaad raised a potential problem in that moving to 32 bits changed the 
block alignment. (32 bits of salt and 32 bits of checksum make a full 8
octet Triple-DES or RC2 block, thus a full block of pad will be needed.) 
After a fair amount of discussion, the WG decided to change the checksum
algorithm to the left-most 64 bits of the SHA-1 hash of the key material.
This takes advantage of the one-way nature of SHA-1 and provides a longer
integrity check value without increasing the size of the wrapped key.
Russ stated that several people has requested that once the CMS drafts are 
finished a four week rather than the normal two week IETF last call be 
requested. This request was based on the fact that the algorithms really 
need to have a wider review before being placed in proposed standard form.
The WG concurred.
Russ then asked for any other unresolved issued on CMS. 
Jim Schaad brought up the question of placing Subject Key Identifier (SKI)
into the SignerInfo structure. Jim proposed that the SKI be added to CMS,
however a statement be added to MSG that only the issuer and serial number
choice may be used in S/MIME version 3. A discussion followed where two
possible uses of SKI would be of use. The first would be to allow for PGP
keys to be referenced in a CMS object. The second related to the
Certificate Management over CMS (CMC) internet-draft in the PKIX working
group. After some discussion the proposal was adopted by the working group.
Denis Pinkas raised an issue that he thought section 5.6 (signature
verification process) was confusing and he had posted a message to this
effect. Russ requested that he repost the message to the list.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
X9.42 Draft Discussion - Eric Rescorla
Eric next presented the changes and plans for the X9.42 draft. Text has
been included in the draft to provide a standard way to produce the group
parameters for q >= 160. A statement that q must be at least 160 is being
included into the draft. With this set of changes the draft should be ready
for WG last call.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
CERT Draft Discussion - Paul Hoffman (for Blake Ramsdell)
Paul presented this and the CERT draft discussion on behalf of Blake who was
unable to make the meeting. Paul stated that only minor changes have been
made to the drafts since the last meeting. The most significant of these
dealt with making some terms about entities clearer and more consistent.
Paul stated that no new draft has been posted since the last working group
meeting but one should be expected soon.
An issue was raised that the last paragraph in section 3.1 is now redundant
as the NULL Subject DN on end-entity certificates is no longer permitted by
the PKIX documents.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
MSG Draft Discussion - Paul Hoffman (for Blake Ramsdell)
Paul stated that no significant changes have been made to the MSG draft
since the last meeting. The most significant editorial changes have been 
clarification about attribute counts in section 2.5, text clarification on
section 2.5.3 and a change to the Triple-DES reference. An updated draft
should be posted soon.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ESS Draft Discussion - Paul Hoffman
Paul stated that no significant changes have been made to the ESS draft
since the last meeting beyond the inclusion of the SigAttr section. Paul
stated that he would do some rewrites on the introduction to make it easier
to find the assorted attributes which have been added to the draft.
Issues raised from the floor on the ESS draft were:
1) Denis Pinkas requested that the Signature Cert attribute be moved from 
the ESS draft to the CMS draft. He stated that this attribute is needed in
order to be able to make a clear statement on signature verification. After
some discussion a straw poll was taken on the placement of the attribute 
with a majority preferring to keep the attribute in the ESS draft.
2) Andrew Farrell stated that section 4.2.2 was missing from the numbering.
3) Andrew Farrell stated that there appeared to be a large amount of 
redundancy between the processing of secure receipts in the subsections of
4.2.3. Paul explained that his opinion was that the text would be harder to
read if the three different cases were collapsed into a single section.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
CERTDIST Draft Discussion - Jim Schaad
Jim stated that no significant changes have been made since the last WG
meeting. Following the successful progression of the other drafts and final
edits to the Security Considerations section the document will move to WG
Last Call.
Two issues were raised from the floor:
1. Andrew Farrell raied two content issues: Need an OID for the LDAP schema
and section 4.4 has an error in the flow chart.
2. Andrew Farrell requested that an example to be added as a new appendix.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DOMSEC Draft Discussion - Bill Ottaway
Bill stated that changes to the draft included the inclusion of multiple
signature types were added to the draft and clarification of the text on
parallel and encapsulated signatures were added.
Several issues were raised from the floor:
Eric Rescorla made a statement about a problem with parallel signatures 
where an entity could remove the originator signature and substitute their
own. Bill said he would take this comment under advisement.
Bill then asked for guidance if the draft should go to informational or
standard track. Paul Hoffman suggested that the appropriate place may be
experimental unless others are going to implement. A straw poll of the 
group favored moving the draft to experimental. The WG agreed that if a
significant number of implementors emerge, then it can be moved to the
standards track.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Request: CEK Key Mgmt - Frank Siebenlist
Frank made a presentation about a request to modify CMS to allow for the
use of a shared content-encryption key (CEK) without the overhead of
wrapping with a key-encryption key (KEK). This would allow session based
protocols (such as TLS) to use CMS as a building block. As part of this
presentation a set of suggested ASN.1 changes to accomplish this were
presented.
Eric Rescorla raised immediate concerns that it is not good practice to
re-use an CEK especially in a persistent storage format. Many others
agreed this was a problem. Frank responded that the change was only for
session-based protocols and session-based protocols all suffered from this
re-use "problem".
Jim Schaad presented an alternate method of doing what was desired by the
creation of a new KEK algorithm which performed an identity transform from
the KEK to the CEK and would require no changes to existing CMS draft. The
proposal could then stand on its own merits. A straw poll showed the group
favored this approach to the problem.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Open PGP Compatibility - Jon Callas
Jon made an argument that there were some changes that could be made to the
CMS, MSG and CERT drafts which would allow for easy use of PGP keys to be
used for wrapping CEKs. Specifically, if the MUST on usage of 
IssuerAndSerialNumber in MSG is relaxed to a SHOULD then the SKI option 
could reference PGP keys.
Eric Rescorla stated that while this would give a potential way of dealing
with PGP keys, the message differences would still not be addressed and 
questioned if this should not be done all at once.
Paul Hoffman stated that allowing this would lead to backwards compatibility
problems with existing S/MIME implementations as they could not correctly
verify such signatures.
After some discussion the suggestion was made that a document should be
presented to the group which identified all of the incompatibly issues and
presented possible solutions that could be used to fix a sufficient set for
interoperability. The WG concurred with this approach. Jon agreed to post
an internet-draft.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
New Samples Document - Paul Hoffman
Paul made a presentation for the creation of a new document providing CMS
examples. The overview of the document would be a short introduction, a 
basic example of each content type and advanced examples of different types.
Consistent data on keys would be used through out the entire set of
examples. The timing of this document is such that it would not be started
until the CMS draft has moved to the RFC editors.
It was suggested that the document include some incorrect examples that flag
common implementation errors. Paul agreed to add a section for these.
Paul is only going to coordinate putting this document together. If 
individuals would like to volunteer to do examples they should contact Paul
at [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]> .
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ACTION ITEMS:
1. Change the Checksum algorithm in CMS (Russ Housley)
2. Add SKI to SignerInfo (Russ Housley)
3. Add SKI restriction to the MSG draft (Blake Ramsdell)
4. Require IssuerAndSerialNumber in SigAttr (Paul Hoffman)
5. Post PGP Compatability Internet-Draft (Jon Callas)

---

From: "Jim Schaad (Exchange)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:59:10 -0800

I received only one comment so here are the final minutes

All,

This message includes the minutes of the IETF S/MIME Working Group (WG) 
meeting held on 9 December 1998 in Orlando, FL. These minutes have been
coordinated with the briefing presenters. All briefing slides are stored
at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/smime/.

After some discussion the suggestion was made that a document should be
presented to the group which identified all of the incompatibly issues and
presented possible solutions that could be used to fix a sufficient set for
interoperability. The WG concurred with this approach.

at [email-masked].

ACTION ITEMS: