Subject: [Softwires] Softwire Interim Meeting

From: "Durand, Alain" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:53:17 -0500

As announced in Vancouver, we are going to hold a softwire interim
meeting in January.
The agenda will be the analysis of candidate solutions against the
softwire problem statement
currrently in last call.
 
It will be in California, Bay Area, most probably at Cisco in San Jose,
the week of Jan 23rd to 27th.
 
We are looking at a 2 day meeting and we have a choice of either:
a) Monday 23rd, Tueday 24th
b) Tuesday 24th, Wednesday 25th 
 
Please let the chairs know if you have any strong preference for either
of those options
by the end of this week.
 
I will announce the definitive dates and exact location on Monday next
week.
 
    - Alain & David.
_______________________________________________
Softwires mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/softwires

---

From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:50:13 +0100

Hi,

As I already indicated a few days ago by private email, I oppose to those
dates.

The reason is very simple. There has not been a democratic and fair/open way
to propose several dates so the participants interested, and especially
those that have been contributing more during the last 2 years or so, can
try to make a match which is convenient for as many as them as possible.

I already suggested in Vancouver to the co-chairs that we need to plan ahead
candidate dates and venue (at that time Hong Kong was suggested). I was
ignored, and I was polite to avoid coming into the mailing list to raise the
situation for the benefit of all and clearly that has been not a good
decision from my side.

Basically I¹ve proposed the following dates:
>>>> - 26-27, January
>>>> - 30-31, January
>>>> - 1-3, February
>>>> - 16-17, February

As you can see, the first of them is right after the actual proposal (the
idea was having this meeting before middle of Feb anyway).

Of course, if we want to have a good meeting, clearly we will like to have
all the participants with candidate solution, otherwise, the meeting
discussion will need to be repeated across the list for the missing
candidate solutions, and it means that we will not achieve the meeting goals
of moving faster.

Furthermore, according to latest review of the IETF TAO document
(draft-hoffman-taobis-01.txt) the Interim meetings:
"Location and timing need to allow fair access for all participants". This
seems to follow the idea of RFC2418 on this topic.

Similarly, http://www.ietf.org/IESG/STATEMENTS/Interim-meetings.txt (IESG
guidance on interim IETF Working Group meetings and conference calls),
summarize that they must be scheduled (location/timing) with fair access for
all WG participants.

This has *NOT* been the case. The mistake of the lack of planning, when it
could have been done, has broken the fair access to the meeting for all WG
participants. Also, planning definitively will have impacted positively in
the review of the problem statement document towards the last call, which
was a prerequisite in order to convey into this meeting.

I hope we can now look, open and democratically, into candidate dates for
all the interested participants to arrange this.

Regards,
Jordi

De: "Durand, Alain" <[email-masked]>
Responder a: <[email-masked]>
Fecha: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:53:17 -0500
Para: <[email-masked]>, David Ward <[email-masked]>
Conversación: Softwire Interim Meeting
Asunto: [Softwires] Softwire Interim Meeting

As announced in Vancouver, we are going to hold a softwire interim meeting
in January.
The agenda will be the analysis of candidate solutions against the softwire
problem statement
currrently in last call.
 
It will be in California, Bay Area, most probably at Cisco in San Jose, the
week of Jan 23rd to 27th.

Please let the chairs know if you have any strong preference for either of
those options
by the end of this week.
 
I will announce the definitive dates and exact location on Monday next week.
 
    - Alain & David.

---

From: Mark Townsley <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:32:19 +0100

>Basically I¹ve proposed the following dates:
Hi Jordi,

The dates Dave and Alain work well for me, in fact I have already bought 
the plane tickets. I'm still flexible though.

As for your proposed dates, this is my availability, FWIW:

Jan 30-31 is an IESG retreat (in the Bay area, but we still can't be two 
places at once).

Feb 2 is impossible for me due to a prior commitment.

I would prefer something in the Bay area at the end of Jan, since I (and 
other ADs) will already be there for the IESG meeting and the 6lowpan 
Interim which I need to be at as well. If we need to go to Asia to get 
the proper representation, it needs to be mid Feb for me to attend (Feb 
16-17 works well).

Of course, my attendance isn't 100% necessary, though I would like to be 
there. If the WG can get better representation on a date I cannot make, 
please choose that date.

So far we have had a couple of people say on the list that they don't 
like Dave and Alain's proposed date/location, and a few people say they 
do. I'm happy to hear from others on the list. If we can find a 
date/location that is better for everyone in the WG than what Dave and 
Alain chose, I'm sure we can find a way to make that happen.

- Mark

---

From: David Ward <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:44:39 -0600

All -

Apologies if anyone felt left out of the process, it wasn't the intent of
the initial posting by Alain and myself on the proposed dates. Perhaps the
wording was not adequate to represent what we wanted to convey which is
below: 

Those that can host the event (provide the room - enough for 75, breakfast
and lunch for all days) please reply to Alain and myself so that we can
organize the posting of the available locations and dates. From that we will
select the venue and dates that the most people can attend. Please have the
host offers between Jan 23 and Feb 10th. So far, we have:

San Jose, California (SJC) hosted by Cisco: Jan 23-24 or 24-25
    No cost to participants for the meeting room and early and midday meal.
    Voice conferencing will be made available if desired.

NOTE: Since we were in Europe last time, it would be best if we were in Asia
or Americas.

There is no binding to the initially proposed date unless significant number
of folks have made their travel arrangements. If folks have made plans and
they cannot be changed, please reply to Alain and myself. The reason this
week was chosen is that it is the time and location our ADs could join us as
they will both be in the Bay Area on other IESG work.  Note that the 26-27
and 30-31 are not available due to either WG chair or AD conflict.

A couple of pragmatic reminders: there is little chance we can find a date
and location that will satisfy everyone but, we will try our best to get the
most people in a comfortable room that will not cost too much in travel
expenses. Apologies in advance for folks that cannot make this meeting due
to conflict or expense. All work will of course be published to the list for
final approval and/or explanation.

We unfortunately have to finalize the location and dates by the 29th of
December so, please get any further offers of hosting the meeting to us as
soon as possible. Our initial delays were due to getting the problem
statement into LC. Please don't forget to send any final comments to the
list for inclusion. Spencer Dawkins has also graciously taken the token to
check the grammar and readability of the document. Cutoff of the LC is the
31st of Dec.

Many thanks and apologies for the confusion.

-DWard, Alain

---

From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:57:33 +0100

Hi Dave,

Thanks a lot for your understanding.

Please, see my reply in-line.

Regards,
Jordi

> De: David Ward <[email-masked]>
> Responder a: <[email-masked]>
> Fecha: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:44:39 -0600
> Para: <[email-masked]>, "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>,
> David Ward <[email-masked]>, "Durand, Alain"
> <[email-masked]>, Mark Townsley <[email-masked]>
> Asunto: Re: [Softwires] Softwire Interim Meeting
> 
> All -
> 

I don't really think we need so big room, but of course, will be nice to
have, especially if we have so big participation.

Also, lunch/breakfast was not available at the Paris meeting, and again is
nice to have, but I think everyone could cover their own cost if required.

> NOTE: Since we were in Europe last time, it would be best if we were in Asia

I can offer something in Madrid, but as you say is Europe ...

Alternatively, I can also probably offer something in Caracas (Venezuela),
on 23/24 January.

One more choice that may work is Mumbai on the week 23 to 27. I will need to
check for a meeting room availability, but I guess it will not be a trouble.
This will fit the Asia requirement.

If any of these choices seems to be good (and especially the last two), I
will need a quick response to make sure the final announcement fulfils the
"one month in advance" as for any Interim meeting.

> of folks have made their travel arrangements. If folks have made plans and

As I understand there was not any final confirmation of the meeting and
dates, just a question to choose among two dates, so nobody should have done
any arrangements ... That's why I insisted so much in our email exchange in
November, during the Vancouver meeting in the need for anticipated planning
!

> and 30-31 are not available due to either WG chair or AD conflict.

What about 1-3 in the same location as you originally proposed (Bay area),
so those present at the IESG meeting can still be there ?

> final approval and/or explanation.

This is fair, and I guess the WG will also accept that we somehow prioritize
the people that is more active here and especially those that have already
proposed candidate solutions. Somehow that will follow also the idea of no
new proposals for solutions being accepted once the work is started (unless
I misunderstood it, even if I don't really agree 100% on that). Is that
reasonable/acceptable/fair for the WG ?

---

From: Simon Barber <[email-masked]>
Date: 21 Dec 2005 15:40:52 +0000

Jan 23-24 or 24-25 in San Jose works for me.

S.

---

From: Xing Li <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 22:36:53 +0800

Dear Chairs,

As we scheduled in Vancouver meeting, we hope to have this interim
in Hong Kong. The Department of Information Engineering in Chinese 
University of Hong Kong (CUHK) would like to host the meeting room.
The IE department has a couple of fairly large rooms in the new
engineering building that are not used for class rooms.  The normal
capacity of the room should be 70 people, with chairs, projector,
and possibility for break up meeting.  There are a couple of other
meeting rooms which can be used for break up meetings if necessary.
Although these are department rooms, we need to book it as early as
possible. We only need to acknowledge their support somehow as a 
co-sponsor of the meeting.

By the way, Chinese New Year is on Jan. 29. At that time, most Chinese
may have a vacation of more than one week. We should probably avoid 
the Chinese New Year days since there will be less support - such 
as shuttle bus within the campus, restaurants, and the help of some 
staff members here.

Hongkong has a well developed metro system (like Paris), and CUHK is 
just at the University Station of Metro Black Line at the north of HK. 
It is less than about half an hour to take metro from downtown to CUHK, 
so individuals can live in most hotels in HK. One option here is 
"Royal Park Hotel" (http://www.royalpark.com.hk/) at a big shopping 
plaza, which is only two stops away along the Metro Black Line.

In summary,

Hong Kong: hosted by Chinese University of Hong Kong: Jan 23-24 or 24-25
     No cost to participants for the meeting room.

If you have any questions, please let us know.

Xing Li

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:37:57 -0500

Note that SANOG is January 23-24 in Mumbai, and it is a lot easier to  
get from Mumbai to Hong Kong than Mumbai to
San Jose. If it was Jan 26-27 in Hong Kong I might be able to attend,  
and I know of some others at SANOG
who might be as well. Is there any  chance a Hong Kong meeting could  
be delayed until Jan 26-27 ?

Regards
Marshall Eubanks

On Dec 23, 2005, at 9:36 AM, Xing Li wrote:

> possible. We only need to acknowledge their support somehow as a co- 
> sponsor of the meeting.
>
> Hongkong has a well developed metro system (like Paris), and CUHK  
> is just at the University Station of Metro Black Line at the north  
> of HK. It is less than about half an hour to take metro from  
> downtown to CUHK, so individuals can live in most hotels in HK. One  
> option here is "Royal Park Hotel" (http://www.royalpark.com.hk/) at  
> a big shopping plaza, which is only two stops away along the Metro  
> Black Line.
>
> In summary,
>

---

From: Mark Townsley <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 16:56:07 +0100

Thank you, Prof Li.

It's a little late to get the 30-day advance notice to everyone for a 
Jan 23 meeting. In fact, with the secretariat on vacation it is probably 
impossible to get this to ietf-announce in time even for Jan 24. Would 
the offer to host in HK be possible some days during the week of Feb 13? 
I'd like a little more list discussion now that we have more than one 
offer for hosting, and the US and Europe are now largely on vacation.

- Mark

Xing Li wrote:

> the Chinese New Year days since there will be less support - such as 
> shuttle bus within the campus, restaurants, and the help of some staff 
> members here.
>
> It is less than about half an hour to take metro from downtown to 
> CUHK, so individuals can live in most hotels in HK. One option here is 
>>> meeting

---

From: Mark Townsley <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 19:37:30 +0100

> be delayed until Jan 26-27 ?

Jan 27 is the 6lowpan interim in the Bay area, I would not be able to 
attend if the meeting is 26-27 in HK. I might be able to make 23-24 in 
HK, but would prefer something between Feb 7 and Feb 17 (the last day 
possible to meet the 30-day advance for IETF guidelines).

- Mark

>> shuttle bus within the campus, restaurants, and the help of some  
>> staff members here.
>>
>> just at the University Station of Metro Black Line at the north  of 
>> HK. It is less than about half an hour to take metro from  downtown 
>> to CUHK, so individuals can live in most hotels in HK. One  option 
>> here is "Royal Park Hotel" (http://www.royalpark.com.hk/) at  a big 
>> shopping plaza, which is only two stops away along the Metro  Black 
>> Line.
>>
>> In summary,
>>

---

From: Joe Abley <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 19:32:52 -0500

On 24-Dec-2005, at 13:37, Mark Townsley wrote:

> Marshall Eubanks wrote:
>
>> Note that SANOG is January 23-24 in Mumbai, and it is a lot easier  
>> to  get from Mumbai to Hong Kong than Mumbai to
>> San Jose. If it was Jan 26-27 in Hong Kong I might be able to  
>> attend,  and I know of some others at SANOG
>> who might be as well. Is there any  chance a Hong Kong meeting  
>> could  be delayed until Jan 26-27 ?
>
> Jan 27 is the 6lowpan interim in the Bay area, I would not be able  
> to attend if the meeting is 26-27 in HK. I might be able to make  
> 23-24 in HK, but would prefer something between Feb 7 and Feb 17  
> (the last day possible to meet the 30-day advance for IETF  
> guidelines).

For those who are not aware of it, there's a calendar which is  
probably highly pertinent to this thread maintained by NSRC/ISOC, here:

   http://ws.edu.isoc.org/calendar/

Joe

---

From: Xing Li <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 22:02:07 +0800

Dear Mark and All,

Based on the suggestions received, with the help of CUHK, we can host 
the interim
meeting on Feb. 6-7.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
In summary,

Hong Kong: hosted by Chinese University of Hong Kong: Feb. 6-7
No cost to participants for the meeting room.

Additional information,

The official Chinese new year holidays for the university are
Jan 28-31. For Feb 3 on wards, everything will
be back to noraml.

For hotels, the hotel in Shatin is most convenient. The following
is some hotel information from a recent workshop at City Univ.
   http://www.cs.cityu.edu.hk/~wine2005/hotel.htm
These hotels should be close to the train stops, and hence should
be convenient.  For those who are more budget-minded, there might
be some guest house rooms on the campus of CUHK as well.

This is the official link to CUHK
   http://www.cuhk.edu.hk/v5/en/
There should be a map, and some info about campus shuttle bus.
The proposed meeting room is in the William Mong Engineering Building.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Best regards,

Xing Li
CERNET

Mark Townsley wrote:

> Jan 23 meeting. In fact, with the secretariat on vacation it is 
> probably impossible to get this to ietf-announce in time even for Jan 
> 24. Would the offer to host in HK be possible some days during the 
> week of Feb 13? I'd like a little more list discussion now that we 
> have more than one offer for hosting, and the US and Europe are now 
> largely on vacation.
>
> - Mark
>
> Xing Li wrote:
>
>> Dear Chairs,
>>
>> HK. It is less than about half an hour to take metro from downtown to 
>> CUHK, so individuals can live in most hotels in HK. One option here 
>> is "Royal Park Hotel" (http://www.royalpark.com.hk/) at a big 
>> shopping plaza, which is only two stops away along the Metro Black Line.
>>
>> In summary,
>>

---

From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 19:34:00 +0100

Hi Marshall,

This was one of my suggestions back early November, now I guess it too late,
as conflicts with other meetings (which have been scheduled ahead of ours
due to the lack of planning) and also because the one-month prior
announcement rule for Interim meetings, so the savings of making it
back-to-back, either in Mumbai or in HK are lost ...

Regards,
Jordi

> De: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
> Fecha: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:37:57 -0500
> Para: Xing Li <[email-masked]>
> CC: "Durand, Alain" <[email-masked]>, "[email-masked]"
> <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>, Yong
> <[email-masked]>

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From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 19:40:07 +0100

Hi,

For me 6-7 in HK will be fine. It will be also feasible for me from Feb. 1st
to 10th, in case it is easier for others.

I guess other interested participants need to speak up *now* and confirm
what best fits to them.

Please, let's fix it now and avoid missing the deadlines again !

Regards,
Jordi

> De: Xing Li <[email-masked]>
> Responder a: <[email-masked]>
> Fecha: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 22:02:07 +0800
> Para: Mark Townsley <[email-masked]>
> CC: David Ward <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>,
> "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>, "Durand, Alain"
> <[email-masked]>, Yong <[email-masked]>,
> <[email-masked]>