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References: <161781991426.15865.4191431758501856588@ietfa.amsl.com> <06a201d72be3$8e1e9b20$aa5bd160$@olddog.co.uk> <CABNhwV19LDNZa0SjJ9N_ee0P0Hbqr4MdHPTahR-VM78O6UWUGQ@mail.gmail.com> <CABNhwV0W8AYODXXg1XEw5CBKR+ivOos0gJy33fqanLC1UWHo7w@mail.gmail.com> <08e801d72d26$a5f764e0$f1e62ea0$@olddog.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <08e801d72d26$a5f764e0$f1e62ea0$@olddog.co.uk>
From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 1 May 2021 14:50:01 -0400
Message-ID: <CABNhwV1suO-bbSU9gCVBKKVwdKN5jiWAzx1dGyyCMHPLOSY7fQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
Cc: TEAS WG Chairs <teas-chairs@ietf.org>, teas@ietf.org
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/qo9Uo1iVR4f1-U_U1RE0-6KSU4Y>
Subject: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
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Hi Adrian

I reviewed the latest revision 11 and it looks excellent and well done by
all the feedback from WG thus far.

I am still in the process of building some minor updates as it relates to
design and architectural flavors of TE deployments as within Verizon we
have a variety of deployments and the goals are different in each
environment public internet or private MPLS / SR or internal
implementations.

The major difference in implementation is the goal of congestion control
and avoidance versus traffic flow bandwidth management as the goals and
objectives are very different and there is also as well a mixture hybrid of
both concepts as well.  Also some thoughts on what works well and what does
not and the critical component of overall good network capacity planning
and based on the congestion control or avoidance design that if your have
enough of capacity for high bw flows the amount of TE is minimal if any.
Also idea of leveraging IGP based metrics to provide bandwidth delay
framework which eliminates that function to be provided by TE concept
framework which also limits the amount of TE necessary.

I should be completed in about a week maybe less.

Kind Regards

Gyan

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 5:56 AM Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:

> Come one, come all [1]
>
>
>
> Yes. Let=E2=80=99s set end of April for everyone. Then I can do an update=
 and then
> the chairs can last call it.
>
>
>
> Adrian
>
>
>
> [1] Moto of the No 253 (Hyderabad State) Squadron, Royal Air Force.
>
>
>
> *From:* Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* 09 April 2021 03:46
> *To:* adrian@olddog.co.uk
> *Cc:* TEAS WG Chairs <teas-chairs@ietf.org>; teas@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Adrian
>
>
>
> End of April works for me better as well if you are good.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Gyan
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 10:42 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>
>
>
> Hi Adrian
>
>
>
> I will plan to complete the review by tomorrow.
>
>
>
> Sorry for the delay.
>
>
>
> Kind Regards
>
>
>
> Gyan
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 3:24 PM Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
>
> With this version I have filled in the remaining TBDs:
> - small section on intent-based network
> - small section on multi-layer TE (thanks, Lou, for the suggestion)
> - change log from 3272
>
> As far as I'm concerned this document is complete modulo review comments.
>
> It *really* needs review, but I can't force you!
> Maybe you can look at the sections of special interest to you?
> Maybe the original Design Team could take another look?
>
> Otherwise: time for WG last call?
>
> Thanks,
> Adrian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: I-D-Announce <i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of
> internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: 07 April 2021 19:25
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: teas@ietf.org
> Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
>
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and
> Signaling WG of the IETF.
>
>         Title           : Overview and Principles of Internet Traffic
> Engineering
>         Author          : Adrian Farrel
>         Filename        : draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
>         Pages           : 91
>         Date            : 2021-04-07
>
> Abstract:
>    This document describes the principles of traffic engineering (TE) in
>    the Internet.  The document is intended to promote better
>    understanding of the issues surrounding traffic engineering in IP
>    networks and the networks that support IP networking, and to provide
>    a common basis for the development of traffic engineering
>    capabilities for the Internet.  The principles, architectures, and
>    methodologies for performance evaluation and performance optimization
>    of operational networks are also discussed.
>
>    This work was first published as RFC 3272 in May 2002.  This document
>    obsoletes RFC 3272 by making a complete update to bring the text in
>    line with best current practices for Internet traffic engineering and
>    to include references to the latest relevant work in the IETF.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis/
>
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>
> _______________________________________________
> Teas mailing list
> Teas@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>
> --
>
> [image: Image removed by sender.] <http://www.verizon.com/>
>
> *Gyan Mishra*
>
> *Network Solutions Architect *
>
> *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>*
>
> *M 301 502-1347*
>
>
>
> --
>
> [image: Image removed by sender.] <http://www.verizon.com/>
>
> *Gyan Mishra*
>
> *Network Solutions Architect *
>
> *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>*
>
> *M 301 502-1347*
>
>
>
--=20

<http://www.verizon.com/>

*Gyan Mishra*

*Network Solutions A**rchitect *

*Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>*



*M 301 502-1347*

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"auto">Hi Adrian</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">I reviewed the latest revision 11 and it looks excellent and well done =
by all the feedback from WG thus far.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div=
 dir=3D"auto">I am still in the process of building some minor updates as i=
t relates to design and architectural flavors of TE deployments as within V=
erizon we have a variety of deployments and the goals are different in each=
 environment public internet or private MPLS / SR or internal implementatio=
ns. =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">The major dif=
ference in implementation is the goal of congestion control and avoidance v=
ersus traffic flow bandwidth management as the goals and objectives are ver=
y different and there is also as well a mixture hybrid of both concepts as =
well.=C2=A0 Also some thoughts on what works well and what does not and the=
 critical component of overall good network capacity planning and based on =
the congestion control or avoidance design that if your have enough of capa=
city for high bw flows the amount of TE is minimal if any.=C2=A0 Also idea =
of leveraging IGP based metrics to provide bandwidth delay framework which =
eliminates that function to be provided by TE concept framework which also =
limits the amount of TE necessary. =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>=
<div dir=3D"auto">I should be completed in about a week maybe less.</div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Kind Regards=C2=A0</div><div di=
r=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Gyan</div><div><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 5:56=
 AM Adrian Farrel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.=
co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"E=
N-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div cl=
ass=3D"m_-6122668607121923580WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Com=
e one, come all [1]<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Yes. Let=E2=80=99=
s set end of April for everyone. Then I can do an update and then the chair=
s can last call it.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Adrian<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>[1] Moto of the No 253 (Hyderabad State) Squadr=
on, Royal Air Force. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #=
e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Gyan Mishra &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</=
a>&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> 09 April 2021 03:46<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto=
:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a><br><b>Cc:</=
b> TEAS WG Chairs &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">teas-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Teas] I-D Action: dra=
ft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Adrian=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
p></div></div></div><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" styl=
e=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div class=3D"m_-6122668607121923580WordSection1=
"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">End of April works for me better as well if you are good.<u>=
</u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></=
div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al">Gyan=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=
=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div class=3D"m_-=
6122668607121923580WordSection1"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></p><div></div></div></div></div><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vl=
ink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div class=3D"m_-612266860712=
1923580WordSection1"><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Apr 8, 2=
021 at 10:42 PM Gyan Mishra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div=
></div></div></div></div><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"=
 style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div class=3D"m_-6122668607121923580WordSec=
tion1"><div><div><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc=
 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"></bloc=
kquote></div></div></div></div><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"p=
urple" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div class=3D"m_-6122668607121923580W=
ordSection1"><div><div><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #=
cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">=
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal">Hi Adrian=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I will plan to=
 complete the review by tomorrow.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sorry f=
or the delay.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Kind Regards=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Gyan<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Apr=
 7, 2021 at 3:24 PM Adrian Farrel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk=
" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></d=
iv><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding=
:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">With this version I have filled in the remaining TBDs:<br>- small sectio=
n on intent-based network<br>- small section on multi-layer TE (thanks, Lou=
, for the suggestion)<br>- change log from 3272<br><br>As far as I&#39;m co=
ncerned this document is complete modulo review comments.<br><br>It *really=
* needs review, but I can&#39;t force you!<br>Maybe you can look at the sec=
tions of special interest to you?<br>Maybe the original Design Team could t=
ake another look?<br><br>Otherwise: time for WG last call?<br><br>Thanks,<b=
r>Adrian<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: I-D-Announce &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">i-d-announce-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of<br><a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br>Sent: 07 April 2=
021 19:25<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>i-d-announce@ietf.org</a><br>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</a><br>Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc32=
72bis-11.txt<br><br><br>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line =
Internet-Drafts<br>directories.<br>This draft is a work item of the Traffic=
 Engineering Architecture and<br>Signaling WG of the IETF.<br><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Overvi=
ew and Principles of Internet Traffic<br>Engineering<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 Author=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Adrian Farrel<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-ietf-t=
eas-rfc3272bis-11.txt<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: 91<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : 2021-04-07<br><br>Abstract:<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0This document describes the principles of traffic engineering (TE) in<br=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the Internet.=C2=A0 The document is intended to promote bette=
r<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0understanding of the issues surrounding traffic engineeri=
ng in IP<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0networks and the networks that support IP networki=
ng, and to provide<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0a common basis for the development of tr=
affic engineering<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0capabilities for the Internet.=C2=A0 The =
principles, architectures, and<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0methodologies for performanc=
e evaluation and performance optimization<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0of operational ne=
tworks are also discussed.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0This work was first publishe=
d as RFC 3272 in May 2002.=C2=A0 This document<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0obsoletes RF=
C 3272 by making a complete update to bring the text in<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0lin=
e with best current practices for Internet traffic engineering and<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0to include references to the latest relevant work in the IETF.<br=
><br><br>The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br><a href=3D"=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis/" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis/</a><br><b=
r>There are also htmlized versions available at:<br><a href=3D"https://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11" target=3D"_blank">https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11</a><br><a href=3D"https://d=
atatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11</a><=
br><br>A diff from the previous version is available at:<br><a href=3D"http=
s://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11</a>=
<br><br><br>Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time =
of submission<br>until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a hr=
ef=3D"http://tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br><br>I=
nternet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br><a href=3D"ftp://=
ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" target=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/interne=
t-drafts/</a><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br=
>I-D-Announce mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">I-D-Announce@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailm=
an/listinfo/i-d-announce</a><br>Internet-Draft directories: <a href=3D"http=
://www.ietf.org/shadow.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/shadow.h=
tml</a><br>or <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt" target=
=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt</a><br><br>__________=
_____________________________________<br>Teas mailing list<br><a href=3D"ma=
ilto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https=
://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div></div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div></div></div></di=
v><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:bre=
ak-word"><div class=3D"m_-6122668607121923580WordSection1"><div><div><block=
quote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div><div><div><div><div=
><div><div><div><p><a href=3D"http://www.verizon.com/" target=3D"_blank"><s=
pan style=3D"color:#1155cc;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;text-d=
ecoration:none"><img border=3D"0" src=3D"cid:17929383475b11963101" alt=3D"I=
mage removed by sender." style=3D"width:202px;max-width:100%"></span></a><s=
pan style=3D"color:#222222"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p style=3D"margin:0cm=
"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">G=
yan Mishra</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-seri=
f;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p style=3D"margin:0cm"><i><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,serif;color:black">Network Solutions=
 Architect=C2=A0</span></i><span style=3D"color:#222222"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p><p style=3D"margin:0cm"><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Georgia&quot;,serif;color:black">Email <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mi=
shra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com</a></span></i=
><span style=3D"color:#222222"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p style=3D"margin-=
right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0cm"><i><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:&quot;Georgia&quot;,serif;color:black">M 301 502-1347</span></i><span st=
yle=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></blockquote></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p=
><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p><a href=3D"http://www.veri=
zon.com/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1155cc;border:solid windo=
wtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;text-decoration:none"><img border=3D"0" src=3D"cid:=
17929383475b11963101" alt=3D"Image removed by sender." style=3D"width:202px=
;max-width:100%"></span></a><span style=3D"color:#222222"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:break-=
word"><div class=3D"m_-6122668607121923580WordSection1"><div><div><div><div=
><div><div><div><div><div><p style=3D"margin:0cm"><b><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Gyan Mishra</span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></=
u></span></p><p style=3D"margin:0cm"><i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ge=
orgia&quot;,serif;color:black">Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0</span></i>=
<span style=3D"color:#222222"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p style=3D"margin:0=
cm"><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,seri=
f;color:black">Email <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D=
"_blank">gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com</a></span></i><span style=3D"color:#2222=
22"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p style=3D"margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.=
0pt;margin-left:0cm"><i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,seri=
f;color:black">M 301 502-1347</span></i><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockq=
uote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-sma=
rtmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
><p style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)"><a href=3D"http://www.verizon.com/" style=
=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204);padding-bottom:1em;display:inline-block" target=3D=
"_blank"><img src=3D"http://ss7.vzw.com/is/image/VerizonWireless/vz-logo-em=
ail" width=3D"81" height=3D"18" style=3D"height:18px;width:81px"></a><br></=
p><p style=3D"font-size:1em;margin:0px;font-family:&quot;Verizon NHG DS&quo=
t;,Arial,sans-serif;line-height:13px;color:black"><b>Gyan Mishra</b></p><p =
style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);margin:0px;line-height:13px"><font face=3D"geo=
rgia, serif" style=3D"color:black;font-size:1em"><i>Network Solutions A</i>=
</font><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif"><i>rchitect=C2=A0</i=
></font></p><p style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);margin:0px;line-height:13px"><i=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13px"><font face=3D"georgia, serif">Em=
ail <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.m=
ishra@verizon.com</a></font></i><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, se=
rif"><i><br></i></font></p><p style=3D"font-size:1em;margin:0px;line-height=
:13px;color:black"><i><font face=3D"georgia, serif">M 301 502-1347<br><br><=
/font></i></p></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div>

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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Gyan Mishra'" <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
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Date: Sat, 1 May 2021 21:51:51 +0100
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/U56KSCvB8IBGc_PisenTlt_dQtI>
Subject: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
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Excellent. Thanks. Looking forward to seeing your thoughts.

=20

Best,

Adrian

=20

From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>=20
Sent: 01 May 2021 19:50
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
Cc: TEAS WG Chairs <teas-chairs@ietf.org>; teas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt

=20

Hi Adrian

=20

I reviewed the latest revision 11 and it looks excellent and well done =
by all the feedback from WG thus far.

=20

I am still in the process of building some minor updates as it relates =
to design and architectural flavors of TE deployments as within Verizon =
we have a variety of deployments and the goals are different in each =
environment public internet or private MPLS / SR or internal =
implementations. =20

=20

The major difference in implementation is the goal of congestion control =
and avoidance versus traffic flow bandwidth management as the goals and =
objectives are very different and there is also as well a mixture hybrid =
of both concepts as well.  Also some thoughts on what works well and =
what does not and the critical component of overall good network =
capacity planning and based on the congestion control or avoidance =
design that if your have enough of capacity for high bw flows the amount =
of TE is minimal if any.  Also idea of leveraging IGP based metrics to =
provide bandwidth delay framework which eliminates that function to be =
provided by TE concept framework which also limits the amount of TE =
necessary. =20

=20

I should be completed in about a week maybe less.

=20

Kind Regards=20

=20

Gyan

=20

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 5:56 AM Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk =
<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk> > wrote:

Come one, come all [1]

=20

Yes. Let=E2=80=99s set end of April for everyone. Then I can do an =
update and then the chairs can last call it.

=20

Adrian

=20

[1] Moto of the No 253 (Hyderabad State) Squadron, Royal Air Force.=20

=20

From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com <mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com> =
>=20
Sent: 09 April 2021 03:46
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>=20
Cc: TEAS WG Chairs <teas-chairs@ietf.org <mailto:teas-chairs@ietf.org> =
>; teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>=20
Subject: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt

=20

=20

Hi Adrian=20

=20

End of April works for me better as well if you are good.

=20

Thanks=20

=20

Gyan=20

=20

On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 10:42 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com =
<mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com> > wrote:

=20

Hi Adrian=20

=20

I will plan to complete the review by tomorrow.

=20

Sorry for the delay.

=20

Kind Regards=20

=20

Gyan

=20

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 3:24 PM Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk =
<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk> > wrote:

With this version I have filled in the remaining TBDs:
- small section on intent-based network
- small section on multi-layer TE (thanks, Lou, for the suggestion)
- change log from 3272

As far as I'm concerned this document is complete modulo review =
comments.

It *really* needs review, but I can't force you!
Maybe you can look at the sections of special interest to you?
Maybe the original Design Team could take another look?

Otherwise: time for WG last call?

Thanks,
Adrian

-----Original Message-----
From: I-D-Announce <i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org> > On Behalf Of
internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>=20
Sent: 07 April 2021 19:25
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org>=20
Cc: teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>=20
Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and
Signaling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Overview and Principles of Internet Traffic
Engineering
        Author          : Adrian Farrel
        Filename        : draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
        Pages           : 91
        Date            : 2021-04-07

Abstract:
   This document describes the principles of traffic engineering (TE) in
   the Internet.  The document is intended to promote better
   understanding of the issues surrounding traffic engineering in IP
   networks and the networks that support IP networking, and to provide
   a common basis for the development of traffic engineering
   capabilities for the Internet.  The principles, architectures, and
   methodologies for performance evaluation and performance optimization
   of operational networks are also discussed.

   This work was first published as RFC 3272 in May 2002.  This document
   obsoletes RFC 3272 by making a complete update to bring the text in
   line with best current practices for Internet traffic engineering and
   to include references to the latest relevant work in the IETF.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org =
<http://tools.ietf.org> .

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


_______________________________________________
I-D-Announce mailing list
I-D-Announce@ietf.org <mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org>=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

--=20

 <http://www.verizon.com/>=20

Gyan Mishra

Network Solutions Architect=20

Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>=20

M 301 502-1347

=20

--=20

 <http://www.verizon.com/>=20

Gyan Mishra

Network Solutions Architect=20

Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>=20

M 301 502-1347

=20

--=20

 <http://www.verizon.com/>=20

Gyan Mishra

Network Solutions Architect=20

Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>=20

M 301 502-1347

=20


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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Excellent. Thanks. Looking forward =
to seeing your thoughts.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> Gyan Mishra =
&lt;hayabusagsm@gmail.com&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> 01 May 2021 =
19:50<br><b>To:</b> adrian@olddog.co.uk<br><b>Cc:</b> TEAS WG Chairs =
&lt;teas-chairs@ietf.org&gt;; teas@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Teas] I-D Action: =
draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi =
Adrian<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
reviewed the latest revision 11 and it looks excellent and well done by =
all the feedback from WG thus far.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
am still in the process of building some minor updates as it relates to =
design and architectural flavors of TE deployments as within Verizon we =
have a variety of deployments and the goals are different in each =
environment public internet or private MPLS / SR or internal =
implementations. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The major difference in implementation is the goal of =
congestion control and avoidance versus traffic flow bandwidth =
management as the goals and objectives are very different and there is =
also as well a mixture hybrid of both concepts as well.&nbsp; Also some =
thoughts on what works well and what does not and the critical component =
of overall good network capacity planning and based on the congestion =
control or avoidance design that if your have enough of capacity for =
high bw flows the amount of TE is minimal if any.&nbsp; Also idea of =
leveraging IGP based metrics to provide bandwidth delay framework which =
eliminates that function to be provided by TE concept framework which =
also limits the amount of TE necessary. =
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
should be completed in about a week maybe =
less.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kind Regards&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Gyan<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 5:56 AM Adrian Farrel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Come one, =
come all [1]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Yes. =
Let=E2=80=99s set end of April for everyone. Then I can do an update and =
then the chairs can last call it.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Adrian<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>[1] Moto of =
the No 253 (Hyderabad State) Squadron, Royal Air Force. =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> Gyan Mishra &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> 09 =
April 2021 03:46<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" =
target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a><br><b>Cc:</b> TEAS WG Chairs =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas-chairs@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">teas-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Teas] I-D =
Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hi =
Adrian&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>End of =
April works for me better as well if you are =
good.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thanks&nbsp;=
<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Gyan&nbsp;<o=
:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Thu, Apr =
8, 2021 at 10:42 PM Gyan Mishra &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><b=
lockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hi =
Adrian&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I will plan =
to complete the review by tomorrow.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Sorry for =
the delay.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Kind =
Regards&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Gyan<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Wed, Apr =
7, 2021 at 3:24 PM Adrian Farrel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" =
target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>With this =
version I have filled in the remaining TBDs:<br>- small section on =
intent-based network<br>- small section on multi-layer TE (thanks, Lou, =
for the suggestion)<br>- change log from 3272<br><br>As far as I'm =
concerned this document is complete modulo review comments.<br><br>It =
*really* needs review, but I can't force you!<br>Maybe you can look at =
the sections of special interest to you?<br>Maybe the original Design =
Team could take another look?<br><br>Otherwise: time for WG last =
call?<br><br>Thanks,<br>Adrian<br><br>-----Original =
Message-----<br>From: I-D-Announce &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf =
Of<br><a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br>Sent: 07 April 2021 =
19:25<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a><br>Cc: <a =
href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</a><br>Subject: I-D Action: =
draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt<br><br><br>A New Internet-Draft is =
available from the on-line Internet-Drafts<br>directories.<br>This draft =
is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and<br>Signaling =
WG of the IETF.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Title&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;: Overview and Principles of Internet =
Traffic<br>Engineering<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Author&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; : Adrian Farrel<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; Filename&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; : =
draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
Pages&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;: 91<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; Date&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; : =
2021-04-07<br><br>Abstract:<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;This document describes the =
principles of traffic engineering (TE) in<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;the =
Internet.&nbsp; The document is intended to promote better<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;understanding of the issues surrounding traffic engineering in =
IP<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;networks and the networks that support IP networking, =
and to provide<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;a common basis for the development of =
traffic engineering<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;capabilities for the Internet.&nbsp; =
The principles, architectures, and<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;methodologies for =
performance evaluation and performance optimization<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;of =
operational networks are also discussed.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp;This work =
was first published as RFC 3272 in May 2002.&nbsp; This =
document<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;obsoletes RFC 3272 by making a complete update =
to bring the text in<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;line with best current practices =
for Internet traffic engineering and<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;to include =
references to the latest relevant work in the IETF.<br><br><br>The IETF =
datatracker status page for this draft is:<br><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis/" =
target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-rfc327=
2bis/</a><br><br>There are also htmlized versions available at:<br><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11" =
target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-=
11</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-=
11" =
target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-r=
fc3272bis-11</a><br><br>A diff from the previous version is available =
at:<br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11=
" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-teas-rfc=
3272bis-11</a><br><br><br>Please note that it may take a couple of =
minutes from the time of submission<br>until the htmlized version and =
diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br><br>Internet-Drafts are also =
available by anonymous FTP at:<br><a =
href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" =
target=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br><br><br>____=
___________________________________________<br>I-D-Announce mailing =
list<br><a href=3D"mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">I-D-Announce@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce</a><=
br>Internet-Draft directories: <a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html</a><br>or <a =
href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt" =
target=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt</a><br><br>__=
_____________________________________________<br>Teas mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></blockquote></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>-- =
<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><=
blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
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.0pt'><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p><a =
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style=3D'margin:0cm'><b><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Gyan =
Mishra</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'margin:0cm'><i><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:black'>Network Solutions =
Architect&nbsp;</span></i><o:p></o:p></p><p =
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style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:black'>Email =
<a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" =
target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com</a></span></i><o:p></o:p></p>=
<p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><i><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:black'>M 301 =
502-1347</span></i><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
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te></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>-- =
<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p><a =
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style=3D'color:#1155CC;border:solid windowtext =
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alt=3D"Image removed by =
sender."></span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>=
<div><div><p style=3D'margin:0cm'><b><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Gyan =
Mishra</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'margin:0cm'><i><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:black'>Network Solutions =
Architect&nbsp;</span></i><o:p></o:p></p><p =
style=3D'margin:0cm'><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:black'>Email =
<a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" =
target=3D"_blank">gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com</a></span></i><o:p></o:p></p>=
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style=3D'font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:black'>M 301 =
502-1347</span></i><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
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v></blockquote></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-- =
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p><p style=3D'margin:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:9.75pt'><i><span =
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style=3D'margin:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:9.75pt'><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:black'>Email =
<a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com" =
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style=3D'color:#222222'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
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From nobody Mon May  3 07:49:28 2021
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
CC: 'TEAS WG Chairs' <teas-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
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Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 14:49:19 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
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Hi Adrian, all,=20

FWIW, you may find some comments at:
* pdf: https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blob/master/draft-i=
etf-teas-rfc3272bis-11-rev%20Med.pdf=20
* doc: https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/master/draft-ie=
tf-teas-rfc3272bis-11-rev%20Med.docx=20=20

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel
> Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 7 avril 2021 21:24
> =C0=A0: teas@ietf.org
> Cc=A0: 'TEAS WG Chairs' <teas-chairs@ietf.org>
> Objet=A0: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
>=20
> With this version I have filled in the remaining TBDs:
> - small section on intent-based network
> - small section on multi-layer TE (thanks, Lou, for the suggestion)
> - change log from 3272
>=20
> As far as I'm concerned this document is complete modulo review
> comments.
>=20
> It *really* needs review, but I can't force you!
> Maybe you can look at the sections of special interest to you?
> Maybe the original Design Team could take another look?
>=20
> Otherwise: time for WG last call?
>=20
> Thanks,
> Adrian
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: I-D-Announce <i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of
> internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: 07 April 2021 19:25
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: teas@ietf.org
> Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and
> Signaling WG of the IETF.
>=20
>         Title           : Overview and Principles of Internet Traffic
> Engineering
>         Author          : Adrian Farrel
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
> 	Pages           : 91
> 	Date            : 2021-04-07
>=20
> Abstract:
>    This document describes the principles of traffic engineering (TE)
> in
>    the Internet.  The document is intended to promote better
>    understanding of the issues surrounding traffic engineering in IP
>    networks and the networks that support IP networking, and to
> provide
>    a common basis for the development of traffic engineering
>    capabilities for the Internet.  The principles, architectures, and
>    methodologies for performance evaluation and performance
> optimization
>    of operational networks are also discussed.
>=20
>    This work was first published as RFC 3272 in May 2002.  This
> document
>    obsoletes RFC 3272 by making a complete update to bring the text
> in
>    line with best current practices for Internet traffic engineering
> and
>    to include references to the latest relevant work in the IETF.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at
> tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Teas mailing list
> Teas@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Framework for IETF Network Slices
        Authors         : Adrian Farrel
                          Eric Gray
                          John Drake
                          Reza Rokui
                          Shunsuke Homma
                          Kiran Makhijani
                          Luis M. Contreras
                          Jeff Tantsura
	Filename        : draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-02.txt
	Pages           : 32
	Date            : 2021-05-04

Abstract:
   This document describes network slicing in the context of networks
   built from IETF technologies.  It defines the term "IETF Network
   Slice" and establishes the general principles of network slicing in
   the IETF context.

   The document discusses the general framework for requesting and
   operating IETF Network Slices, the characteristics of an IETF Network
   Slice, the necessary system components and interfaces, and how
   abstract requests can be mapped to more specific technologies.  The
   document also discusses related considerations with monitoring and
   security.

   This document also provides definitions of related terms to enable
   consistent usage in other IETF documents that describe or use aspects
   of IETF Network Slices.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-02
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <teas@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 10:11:16 +0100
Organization: Old Dog Consulting
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Subject: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Several important points:

1. This is work in progress and you are all allowed to comment on any of the
text. Changes made here are based on text floated on the list and comments
received, but this is NOT confirmed consensus and is still open for
modification.

2. You can see the changes this time around at
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-01&url
2=draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-02&difftype=--hwdiff
   a. Eric has retired, but is still following the work
   b. No longer need the Editor's Note in Section 1
   c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we only need to
use one
        term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed best, but I know
some people
        prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you are not happy.
   d. Changes for Isolation text and introduction of "SLE" for
"unquantifiable objectives"
        as proposed on the list, with edits for the comments received
   e. Changes for realisation of network slices as proposed on list, with
edits for the
       comments received.
   f. Various small editorials
   g. Fix ordering of end-matter sections
   h. Remove "Unused Material" Appendix (as it was unused :-)

3. Next work topics (in no particular order)
   a. Definition of a Network Slice Service (based on a discussion started
on the list by John Drake)
   b. Definition of End Points (ditto)
   c. Resolve "duplication" between Figure 1 and Figure 3 as well as
surrounding text
   d. Propose a functional architecture for realising network slices

4. I think that at least 3d will need a meeting. If 3a or 3b gets a
significant level of
    discussion on the list then it should also have a meeting. I will try to
give a week's
    notice for any meeting and pick a time that works for California and
Beijing. But,
    please note that you don't have to come to a meeting to have an opinion
- that is
    what the mailing list is for.

Best,
Adrian

-----Original Message-----
From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
Sent: 04 May 2021 09:56
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: teas@ietf.org
Subject: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-02.txt


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and
Signaling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Framework for IETF Network Slices
        Authors         : Adrian Farrel
                          Eric Gray
                          John Drake
                          Reza Rokui
                          Shunsuke Homma
                          Kiran Makhijani
                          Luis M. Contreras
                          Jeff Tantsura
	Filename        : draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-02.txt
	Pages           : 32
	Date            : 2021-05-04

Abstract:
   This document describes network slicing in the context of networks
   built from IETF technologies.  It defines the term "IETF Network
   Slice" and establishes the general principles of network slicing in
   the IETF context.

   The document discusses the general framework for requesting and
   operating IETF Network Slices, the characteristics of an IETF Network
   Slice, the necessary system components and interfaces, and how
   abstract requests can be mapped to more specific technologies.  The
   document also discusses related considerations with monitoring and
   security.

   This document also provides definitions of related terms to enable
   consistent usage in other IETF documents that describe or use aspects
   of IETF Network Slices.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-02
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas


From nobody Tue May  4 19:18:01 2021
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Subject: [Teas] teas - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 111
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A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Vishnu Pavan Beeram, a Chair of the teas working group.


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling
Area Name: Routing Area
Session Requester: Vishnu Beeram


Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours
Number of Attendees: 75
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 Chair Conflict:  detnet netmod
 Technology Overlap:  ccamp mpls pce idr spring lsr pals bess raw
 Key Participant Conflict:  manet ipsecme opsawg





People who must be present:
  John Scudder
  Lou Berger
  Vishnu Pavan Beeram

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  Other Conflicts: IRTF RRG, RTG BOFs

---------------------------------------------------------



From nobody Wed May  5 01:48:29 2021
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From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Adrian, WG,

On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:


On 04/05/2021 11:11, Adrian Farrel wrote:
>     c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we only need to
> use one
>          term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed best, but I know
> some people
>          prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you are not happy.

If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.

I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.

But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong indication 
that that that a customer is a person (a person that walks inte to your 
shop) and consumer is also a person /that eatss what i bought at your shop).

IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but we 
don't specify normative rules for human behavior.

I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?

/Loa

-- 

Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS Expert                          loa.pi.nu@gmail.com
Bronze Dragon Consulting             phone: +46 739 81 21 64


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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Hi Loa,

> On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
>
>>   c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we only =
need to
>>        use one term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed best, =
but I=20
>>        know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you are =
not
>>        happy.
>
> If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.

OK. So I made an improvement, but...

> I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.

It's never too late to bring things up.

> But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong =
indication=20
> that that that a customer is a person (a person that walks inte to =
your=20
> shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at your =
shop).

I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that =
buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school =
the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the =
customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the cook, =
signed by the bursar.

> IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but we=20
> don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
>
> I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?

I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73 instances =
of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may become tiresome =
to read.

Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?

Cheers,
Adrian


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>,  "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Hi all,=20

> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?

I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic enoug=
h to denote a role/entity.=20=20

Thanks.

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel
> Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59
> =C0=A0: 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>; teas@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-
> slices
>=20
> Hi Loa,
>=20
> > On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
> >
> >>   c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we
> only need to
> >>        use one term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed
> best, but I
> >>        know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you
> are not
> >>        happy.
> >
> > If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.
>=20
> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
>=20
> > I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
>=20
> It's never too late to bring things up.
>=20
> > But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
> > indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
> walks
> > inte to your
> > shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
> your shop).
>=20
> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
> school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as
> the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
> cook, signed by the bursar.
>=20
> > IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but
> we
> > don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
> >
> > I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
>=20
> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
> instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may
> become tiresome to read.
>=20
> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>=20
> Cheers,
> Adrian
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Teas mailing list
> Teas@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

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To: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "'Loa Andersson'" <loa@pi.nu>, <teas@ietf.org>
References: <037401d740c5$70a9cc30$51fd6490$@olddog.co.uk> <3ea262cf-e4c0-5ec0-9736-aedaf6d5d4d8@pi.nu> <009401d74195$41fd70a0$c5f851e0$@olddog.co.uk> <9933_1620212302_60927A4E_9933_344_1_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933035376DFA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the =
document)

   Customer:  A customer is the requester of an IETF Network Slice.
      Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.  A customer may manage
      the IETF Network Slice service directly by interfacing with the
      IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator.

We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise network =
or a
network operator, an individual working at such an entity, a private
individual contracting for a service, or an application or software
component."

Cheers,
Adrian

-----Original Message-----
From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>=20
Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>; teas@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with =
draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices

Hi all,=20

> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?

I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic =
enough
to denote a role/entity. =20

Thanks.

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel
> Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59
> =C0=A0: 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>; teas@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-
> slices
>=20
> Hi Loa,
>=20
> > On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
> >
> >>   c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we
> only need to
> >>        use one term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed
> best, but I
> >>        know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you
> are not
> >>        happy.
> >
> > If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.
>=20
> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
>=20
> > I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
>=20
> It's never too late to bring things up.
>=20
> > But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
> > indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
> walks
> > inte to your
> > shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
> your shop).
>=20
> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
> school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as
> the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
> cook, signed by the bursar.
>=20
> > IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but
> we
> > don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
> >
> > I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
>=20
> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
> instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may
> become tiresome to read.
>=20
> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>=20
> Cheers,
> Adrian
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Teas mailing list
> Teas@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

_________________________________________________________________________=
___
_____________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
recu
ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages
electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme =
ou
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged
information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and
delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
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Thank you.


From nobody Wed May  5 04:13:10 2021
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From: "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" <reza.rokui@nokia.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
CC: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>,  "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
Thread-Index: AQIxNfjF9qcx9VubDm1D4ubI8og6YwEz+LibAjUMGbABYFA3hqn6hfMAgAACheA=
Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 11:14:33 +0000
Message-ID: <28018_1620213274_60927E1A_28018_67_2_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933035376E39@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
References: <037401d740c5$70a9cc30$51fd6490$@olddog.co.uk> <3ea262cf-e4c0-5ec0-9736-aedaf6d5d4d8@pi.nu> <009401d74195$41fd70a0$c5f851e0$@olddog.co.uk> <9933_1620212302_60927A4E_9933_344_1_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933035376DFA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <00a001d7419e$99e5a040$cdb0e0c0$@olddog.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Re-,

Works for me. Thanks.=20

I have one comment, though: s/IETF Network Slice/IETF Network Slice Service.

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
> Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 5 mai 2021 13:06
> =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>; 'Loa
> Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>; teas@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-
> slices
>=20
> We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the
> document)
>=20
>    Customer:  A customer is the requester of an IETF Network Slice.
>       Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.  A customer may
> manage
>       the IETF Network Slice service directly by interfacing with the
>       IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator.
>=20
> We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise
> network or a network operator, an individual working at such an
> entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an
> application or software component."
>=20
> Cheers,
> Adrian
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>; teas@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-
> slices
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> > Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>=20
> I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic
> enough to denote a role/entity.
>=20
> Thanks.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Med
>=20
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De=A0: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian
> Farrel
> > Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C0=A0: 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.=
nu>;
> > teas@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with
> > draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices
> >
> > Hi Loa,
> >
> > > On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
> > >
> > >>   c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we
> > only need to
> > >>        use one term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed
> > best, but I
> > >>        know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you
> > are not
> > >>        happy.
> > >
> > > If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer
> customer.
> >
> > OK. So I made an improvement, but...
> >
> > > I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
> >
> > It's never too late to bring things up.
> >
> > > But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
> > > indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
> > walks
> > > inte to your
> > > shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
> > your shop).
> >
> > I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school
> that
> > buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
> > school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food
> as
> > the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
> cook,
> > signed by the bursar.
> >
> > > IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but
> > we
> > > don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
> > >
> > > I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
> >
> > I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
> > instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may
> > become tiresome to read.
> >
> > Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Adrian
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Teas mailing list
> > Teas@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>=20
> _____________________________________________________________________
> _______
> _____________________________________________
>=20
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> altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
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> Thank you.


___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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To: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "'Loa Andersson'" <loa@pi.nu>, <teas@ietf.org>
References: <037401d740c5$70a9cc30$51fd6490$@olddog.co.uk> <3ea262cf-e4c0-5ec0-9736-aedaf6d5d4d8@pi.nu> <009401d74195$41fd70a0$c5f851e0$@olddog.co.uk> <9933_1620212302_60927A4E_9933_344_1_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933035376DFA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <00a001d7419e$99e5a040$cdb0e0c0$@olddog.co.uk> <28018_1620213274_60927E1A_28018_67_2_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933035376E39@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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Ack

> I have one comment, though: s/IETF Network Slice/IETF Network Slice
Service.


From nobody Wed May  5 05:17:56 2021
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From: "Belotti, Sergio (Nokia - IT/Vimercate)" <sergio.belotti@nokia.com>
To: "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" <reza.rokui@nokia.com>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
CC: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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References: <037401d740c5$70a9cc30$51fd6490$@olddog.co.uk> <3ea262cf-e4c0-5ec0-9736-aedaf6d5d4d8@pi.nu> <009401d74195$41fd70a0$c5f851e0$@olddog.co.uk> <9933_1620212302_60927A4E_9933_344_1_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933035376DFA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>, <00a001d7419e$99e5a040$cdb0e0c0$@olddog.co.uk> <B31A661C-FED6-4005-813C-E87EF6D5E98B@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 12:38:57 +0000
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/b7eF-Lo_djEeBJUR_D64bCcPMLA>
Subject: Re: [Teas] draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices: Network Slice vs. VPN(+)
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Hi Med,

=20

I=E2=80=99m currently working up some text to provide a definition of a =
network slice service and to clarify the endpoint definitions.

=20

This text will be based on material that was on the list some while =
back.

=20

I don=E2=80=99t think this document should dig too deep into VPN+ or =
ACTN. An enhanced VPN is not identical to a slice, and an CAN VN is not =
identical to a slice. However, ACTN and VPN+ both provide ways to =
realise/deliver network slices. I think that applicability statements =
should explain what can and can=E2=80=99t be done using those =
technologies, while this document should just note that they are =
possible architectural approaches.

=20

There are, of course, very many ways to achieve network slicing =
dependent on the underlying technology. We need to be careful about this =
document:

*	Blessing any one approach
*	Trying to catalogue all possible approaches.

Other documents can try to establish consensus for particular =
approaches.

=20

Best,

Adrian

=20

From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>=20
Sent: 05 May 2021 13:39
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; teas@ietf.org
Subject: draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices: Network Slice vs. VPN(+)=20

=20

Adrian,=20

=20

I wonder whether you are planning to add some text to include the =
clarification discussed below.=20

=20

Thank you.=20

=20

Cheers,

Med

=20

De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de =
mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>=20
Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 3 mars 2021 14:28
=C3=80 : adrian@olddog.co.uk <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk> ; =
teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>=20
Objet : [Teas] Network Slice vs. VPN(+) RE: network Slice Endpoint in =
draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00

=20

Hi Adrian, all,=20

=20

Picking this item from the message below as I think this is a point that =
is worth to be clarified and discussed in the framework/definition =
document. We need to explain the differences between the two concepts. =
There are some =E2=80=9Chints=E2=80=9D in the framework I-D, but we need =
to be explicit.=20

=20

VPN(+) is no more than an IETF technology to implement a network slice. =
As such, a network slice can be implemented without relying upon a =
VPN/VPN+. That=E2=80=99s deployment-specific. An example of possible =
implementations (with IETF technologies) would be to define PDBs + SFCs =
or running a dedicated MT-IGP instance (with optimized tweaking such as =
exclude links exposing long delays) + resource-based access, and so on.=20

=20

Ah, let=E2=80=99s not forget that a network slice as defined in the =
definition I-D is not only about connectivity.

=20

BTW, we do still have some inconsistencies between the documents:=20

*	The definition I-D acks that an IETF network slice is not only about =
connectivity.=20
*	The framework I-D seems to be more connectivity-centric.=20

=20

We need to fix this as well.=20

=20

Cheers,

Med

=20

De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel
Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 25 f=C3=A9vrier 2021 11:52
=C3=80 : 'Young Lee' <younglee.tx@gmail.com =
<mailto:younglee.tx@gmail.com> >; 'Luis M. Contreras' =
<contreras.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:contreras.ietf@gmail.com> >
Cc : 'Joel M. Halpern' <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com> =
>; teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org> ; 'Eric Gray' =
<ewgray2k@gmail.com <mailto:ewgray2k@gmail.com> >; 'John E Drake' =
<jdrake=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:jdrake=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> >; 'Rokui, Reza (Nokia - =
CA/Ottawa)' <reza.rokui@nokia.com <mailto:reza.rokui@nokia.com> >; =
BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com =
<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> >
Objet : Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in =
draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00

=20

[...]

=20

But my opinion of all of this is coloured by thinking about enhanced =
VPNs (VPN+) [3] and IETF network slices as the same thing.

=20

[...]

=20

[1] =
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/ibycGzi5cxJUJSvRxm9OsQdDqn8/

[2] RFC 4026

[3] draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn

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vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Hi Med,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I=E2=80=99m =
currently working up some text to provide a definition of a network =
slice service and to clarify the endpoint =
definitions.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>This text =
will be based on material that was on the list some while =
back.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I =
don=E2=80=99t think this document should dig too deep into VPN+ or ACTN. =
An enhanced VPN is not identical to a slice, and an CAN VN is not =
identical to a slice. However, ACTN and VPN+ both provide ways to =
realise/deliver network slices. I think that applicability statements =
should explain what can and can=E2=80=99t be done using those =
technologies, while this document should just note that they are =
possible architectural approaches.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>There are, =
of course, very many ways to achieve network slicing dependent on the =
underlying technology. We need to be careful about this =
document:<o:p></o:p></span></p><ul style=3D'margin-top:0cm' =
type=3Ddisc><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Blessing any one =
approach<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Trying to catalogue all possible =
approaches.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Other documents can try to =
establish consensus for particular approaches.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><di=
v style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> =
mohamed.boucadair@orange.com &lt;mohamed.boucadair@orange.com&gt; =
<br><b>Sent:</b> 05 May 2021 13:39<br><b>To:</b> adrian@olddog.co.uk; =
teas@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices: =
Network Slice vs. VPN(+) <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D'>Adrian, =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'>I wonder whether you are planning to add some text =
to include the clarification discussed below. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'>Thank you. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'>Med<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DFR>De&nbsp;:</span></b><span lang=3DFR> Teas [<a =
href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>] =
<b>De la part de</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com=
</a><br><b>Envoy=C3=A9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 3 mars 2021 =
14:28<br><b>=C3=80&nbsp;:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a><br><b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> =
[Teas] Network Slice vs. VPN(+) RE: network Slice Endpoint in =
draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00<o:p></o:p></span></p></d=
iv></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Hi Adrian, =
all, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Picking =
this item from the message below as I think this is a point that is =
worth to be clarified and discussed in the framework/definition =
document. We need to explain the differences between the two concepts. =
There are some =E2=80=9Chints=E2=80=9D in the framework I-D, but we need =
to be explicit. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>VPN(+) is =
no more than an IETF technology to implement a network slice. As such, a =
network slice can be implemented without relying upon a VPN/VPN+. =
That=E2=80=99s deployment-specific. An example of possible =
implementations (with IETF technologies) would be to define PDBs + SFCs =
or running a dedicated MT-IGP instance (with optimized tweaking such as =
exclude links exposing long delays) + resource-based access, and so on. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Ah, =
let=E2=80=99s not forget that a network slice as defined in the =
definition I-D is not only about connectivity.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>BTW, we do =
still have some inconsistencies between the documents: =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><ul style=3D'margin-top:0cm' type=3Ddisc><li =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'color:black;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>The definition I-D acks =
that an IETF network slice is not only about connectivity. =
<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'color:black;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>The framework I-D seems =
to be more connectivity-centric. <o:p></o:p></span></li></ul><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>We need to =
fix this as well. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'>Med<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DFR>De&nbsp;:</span></b><span lang=3DFR> Teas [<a =
href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>] =
<b>De la part de</b> Adrian Farrel<br><b>Envoy=C3=A9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 25 =
f=C3=A9vrier 2021 11:52<br><b>=C3=80&nbsp;:</b> 'Young Lee' &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:younglee.tx@gmail.com">younglee.tx@gmail.com</a>&gt;; =
'Luis M. Contreras' &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:contreras.ietf@gmail.com">contreras.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
<br><b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> 'Joel M. Halpern' &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a>; 'Eric Gray' &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ewgray2k@gmail.com">ewgray2k@gmail.com</a>&gt;; 'John E =
Drake' &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jdrake=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org">jdrake=3D40juniper.=
net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;; 'Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)' &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:reza.rokui@nokia.com">reza.rokui@nokia.com</a>&gt;; =
BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com=
</a>&gt;<br><b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in =
draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00<o:p></o:p></span></p></d=
iv></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>[...]</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>But my =
opinion of all of this is coloured by thinking about enhanced VPNs =
(VPN+) [3] and IETF network slices as the same thing.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>[...]</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>[1] <a =
href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/ibycGzi5cxJUJSvRxm9OsQ=
dDqn8/">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/ibycGzi5cxJUJSvRxm9OsQ=
dDqn8/</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>[2] RFC =
4026<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:5.25pt'>[3] =
draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn<span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><pre><span =
lang=3DFR>_______________________________________________________________=
__________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></sp=
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erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
lang=3DFR>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. =
Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DFR>Orange decline =
toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. =
Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices: Network Slice vs. VPN(+)
Thread-Index: AQJuQMvxEqWR2+WD9JT4Yd2Nm/Io2amm2QZQgAAHgWA=
Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 13:21:56 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Teas] draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices: Network Slice vs. VPN(+)
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From: Shunsuke Homma <shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 22:23:02 +0900
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To: "Belotti, Sergio (Nokia - IT/Vimercate)" <sergio.belotti@nokia.com>
Cc: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" <reza.rokui@nokia.com>,  "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>,  "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Hi,


Sorry for cutting in...


I=E2=80=99m not a native English speaker and I=E2=80=99m not sure if my und=
erstanding on
the words is correct, but I think =E2=80=9Cconsumer=E2=80=9D would be more =
appropriate,
because I feel that =E2=80=9Cconsumer=E2=80=9D implies people rend a slice =
from a slice
provider with =E2=80=9Cpaying fee=E2=80=9D. (On the other hand, in my under=
standing,
=E2=80=9Cconsumer=E2=80=9D means a user of a service and it is independent =
of whether
he/she pays fee or not.)


As you know, network slice concept generally allows hierarchical structure
(of course, the current IETF network slice definition allows it). For
example, an IETF network slice may be used to provide connectivity (and
some functionalities) to other slices, such as 5G slices, which are under
the same provider, for creating an E2E slice. In such case, can other
slices or a higher orchestrator coordinating these slices be called
=E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D? (In this case, there would not be any payments.=
)


I=E2=80=99m sorry if my understanding on =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D is inco=
rrect and it can be
applied to such cases.


Regards,


Shunsuke

2021=E5=B9=B45=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5(=E6=B0=B4) 21:18 Belotti, Sergio (Nokia -=
 IT/Vimercate) <
sergio.belotti@nokia.com>:

> Hi Adrian,
> +1
>
> Thanks
> Sergio
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Rokui, Reza (Nokia -
> > CA/Ottawa)
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 1:13 PM
> > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
> > Cc: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; teas@ietf.org; Loa Andersson
> > <loa@pi.nu>
> > Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with
> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
> >
> > Hi Adrian,
> >
> > I am fine with the definition of =E2=80=9CCustomer=E2=80=9D provided be=
low.
> >
> > Reza
> >
> > > On May 5, 2021, at 7:06 AM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote=
:
> > >
> > > =EF=BB=BFWe currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late i=
n the
> > > document)
> > >
> > >   Customer:  A customer is the requester of an IETF Network Slice.
> > >      Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.  A customer may manage
> > >      the IETF Network Slice service directly by interfacing with the
> > >      IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator.
> > >
> > > We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise
> > > network or a network operator, an individual working at such an
> > > entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an
> > > application or software component."
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Adrian
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> > <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> > > Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
> > > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>; teas@ietf.org
> > > Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with
> > > draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > >> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
> > >
> > > I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic
> > > enough to denote a role/entity.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Med
> > >
> > >> -----Message d'origine-----
> > >> De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel
> > >> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C3=80 : 'Loa Andersson' <lo=
a@pi.nu>;
> > >> teas@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with
> > >> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices
> > >>
> > >> Hi Loa,
> > >>
> > >>> On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
> > >>>
> > >>>>  c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we
> > >> only need to
> > >>>>       use one term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed
> > >> best, but I
> > >>>>       know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you
> > >> are not
> > >>>>       happy.
> > >>>
> > >>> If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.
> > >>
> > >> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
> > >>
> > >>> I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
> > >>
> > >> It's never too late to bring things up.
> > >>
> > >>> But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
> > >>> indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
> > >> walks
> > >>> inte to your
> > >>> shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
> > >> your shop).
> > >>
> > >> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
> > >> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
> > >> school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food a=
s
> > >> the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
> > >> cook, signed by the bursar.
> > >>
> > >>> IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but
> > >> we
> > >>> don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
> > >>>
> > >>> I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
> > >>
> > >> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
> > >> instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may
> > >> become tiresome to read.
> > >>
> > >> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
> > >>
> > >> Cheers,
> > >> Adrian
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Teas mailing list
> > >> Teas@ietf.org
> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
> > >
> > >
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<div><p class=3D"p1" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px=
;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1">Hi,</span></p><p c=
lass=3D"p2" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-hei=
ght:normal;min-height:20.3px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1"></span><b=
r></p><p class=3D"p1" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17p=
x;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1">Sorry for cutting=
 in...</span></p><p class=3D"p2" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;fo=
nt-size:17px;line-height:normal;min-height:20.3px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span c=
lass=3D"s1"></span><br></p><p class=3D"p1" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch=
:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"=
s1">I=E2=80=99m not a native English speaker and I=E2=80=99m not sure if my=
 understanding on the words is correct, but I think =E2=80=9Cconsumer=E2=80=
=9D would be more appropriate, because I feel that =E2=80=9Cconsumer=E2=80=
=9D implies people rend a slice from a slice provider with =E2=80=9Cpaying =
fee=E2=80=9D. (On the other hand, in my understanding, =E2=80=9Cconsumer=E2=
=80=9D means a user of a service and it is independent of whether he/she pa=
ys fee or not.)</span></p><p class=3D"p2" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:=
normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;min-height:20.3px;color:rgb(0,0,0)=
"><span class=3D"s1"></span><br></p><p class=3D"p1" style=3D"margin:0px;fon=
t-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span =
class=3D"s1">As you know, network slice concept generally allows hierarchic=
al structure (of course, the current IETF network slice definition allows i=
t). For example, an IETF network slice may be used to provide connectivity =
(and some functionalities) to other slices, such as 5G slices, which are un=
der the same provider, for creating an E2E slice. In such case, can other s=
lices or a higher orchestrator coordinating these slices be called =E2=80=
=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D? (In this case, there would not be any payments.)</spa=
n></p><p class=3D"p2" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17p=
x;line-height:normal;min-height:20.3px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1"=
></span><br></p><p class=3D"p1" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;fon=
t-size:17px;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1">I=E2=80=
=99m sorry if my understanding on =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D is incorrect a=
nd it can be applied to such cases.</span></p><p class=3D"p2" style=3D"marg=
in:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;min-height:20.=
3px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1"></span><br></p><p class=3D"p1" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1">Regards,</span></p><p class=3D"p2" style=
=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;min-he=
ight:20.3px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1"></span><br></p><p class=3D=
"p1" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:nor=
mal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1">Shunsuke=C2=A0</span></p></div><di=
v><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">2021=
=E5=B9=B45=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5(=E6=B0=B4) 21:18 Belotti, Sergio (Nokia - IT/=
Vimercate) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sergio.belotti@nokia.com">sergio.belotti@n=
okia.com</a>&gt;:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">Hi Adrian,<br>
+1<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
Sergio<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Teas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Rokui, Reza (Nokia -<br>
&gt; CA/Ottawa)<br>
&gt; Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 1:13 PM<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@ol=
ddog.co.uk</a><br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">=
mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</a>; Loa Andersson<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;<b=
r>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-s=
lices<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Adrian,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I am fine with the definition of =E2=80=9CCustomer=E2=80=9D provided b=
elow.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Reza<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; On May 5, 2021, at 7:06 AM, Adrian Farrel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:a=
drian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; =EF=BB=BFWe currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit la=
te in the<br>
&gt; &gt; document)<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Customer:=C2=A0 A customer is the requester of an IET=
F Network Slice.<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.=C2=
=A0 A customer may manage<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the IETF Network Slice service directly by in=
terfacing with the<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrato=
r.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; We could add &quot;A customer may be an entity such as an enterpr=
ise<br>
&gt; &gt; network or a network operator, an individual working at such an<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an<br>
&gt; &gt; application or software component.&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; &gt; Adrian<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_=
blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a><br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">=
mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58<br>
&gt; &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adri=
an@olddog.co.uk</a>; &#39;Loa Andersson&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.n=
u" target=3D"_blank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with<br>
&gt; &gt; draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi all,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I would simply use &quot;customer&quot; and make sure the definit=
ion is generic<br>
&gt; &gt; enough to denote a role/entity.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; &gt; Med<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; -----Message d&#39;origine-----<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; De : Teas [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Adrian Farrel<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C3=80 : &#39;Loa And=
ersson&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank">loa@pi.nu</a=
>&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.=
org</a> Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Hi Loa,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 c. &quot;Consumer&quot; vs &quot;customer&quot;=
. I have made this consistent (we<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; only need to<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0use one term). I selected &=
quot;Customer&quot; because that seemed<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; best, but I<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0know some people prefer &qu=
ot;consumer&quot;. Please discuss if you<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; are not<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0happy.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer =
customer.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; OK. So I made an improvement, but...<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I don&#39;t know if it is too late to bring this up.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; It&#39;s never too late to bring things up.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; But I really don&#39;t like either, normal language has a=
 strong<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; indication that that that a customer is a person (a perso=
n that<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; walks<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; inte to your<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bou=
ght at<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; your shop).<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the scho=
ol that<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call=
 the<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the=
 food as<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by =
the<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; cook, signed by the bursar.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; IETF specifies &quot;systems&quot;, including what goes i=
nto SW and HW, but<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; we<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; don&#39;t specify normative rules for human behavior.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I don&#39;t know if we can talk about Customer System?<br=
>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; I&#39;m afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There ar=
e 73<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; instances of &quot;customer&quot; in the document, and &quot;=
customer system&quot; may<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; become tiresome to read.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Adrian<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Teas mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.=
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"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</=
a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; ________________________________________________________________<br>
&gt; ______<br>
&gt; &gt; ______ _____________________________________________<br>
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&gt; &gt; Teas mailing list<br>
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_______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000d5549b05c19518ef--


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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>,  "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/CjXjVqES85Ia8w3UUqpwmRJDN6c>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Customer is a standard IETF term

Yours Irrespectively,

John


Juniper Business Use Only

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 5:59 AM
> To: 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>; teas@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slic=
es
>=20
> [External Email. Be cautious of content]
>=20
>=20
> Hi Loa,
>=20
> > On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
> >
> >>   c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we only ne=
ed to
> >>        use one term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed best, =
but I
> >>        know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you are n=
ot
> >>        happy.
> >
> > If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.
>=20
> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
>=20
> > I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
>=20
> It's never too late to bring things up.
>=20
> > But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
> > indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that walks
> > inte to your
> > shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at your sh=
op).
>=20
> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that buys=
 food
> at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school the custom=
er, or
> do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the customer? The contract =
is
> with the school, negotiated by the cook, signed by the bursar.
>=20
> > IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but we
> > don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
> >
> > I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
>=20
> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73 instances o=
f
> "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may become tiresome to
> read.
>=20
> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>=20
> Cheers,
> Adrian
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Teas mailing list
> Teas@ietf.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas__;=
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 13:49:41 +0000
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References: <037401d740c5$70a9cc30$51fd6490$@olddog.co.uk> <3ea262cf-e4c0-5ec0-9736-aedaf6d5d4d8@pi.nu> <009401d74195$41fd70a0$c5f851e0$@olddog.co.uk> <9933_1620212302_60927A4E_9933_344_1_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933035376DFA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <00a001d7419e$99e5a040$cdb0e0c0$@olddog.co.uk>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/FxpN5WPkA3YK_RsEFVCYZR1R89Q>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Hi,

Comment inline

Yours Irrespectively,

John


Juniper Business Use Only

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 7:06 AM
> To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>;
> teas@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slic=
es
>=20
> [External Email. Be cautious of content]
>=20
>=20
> We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the documen=
t)
>=20
>    Customer:  A customer is the requester of an IETF Network Slice.
>       Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.  A customer may manage
>       the IETF Network Slice service directly by interfacing with the
>       IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator.
>=20
> We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise network o=
r a
> network operator, an individual working at such an entity, a private indi=
vidual
> contracting for a service, or an application or software component."

[JD]  Gilding the lily=20

>=20
> Cheers,
> Adrian
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>; teas@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slic=
es
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> > Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>=20
> I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic eno=
ugh to
> denote a role/entity.
>=20
> Thanks.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Med
>=20
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel
> > Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C0 : 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>;
> > teas@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with
> > draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices
> >
> > Hi Loa,
> >
> > > On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
> > >
> > >>   c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we
> > only need to
> > >>        use one term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed
> > best, but I
> > >>        know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you
> > are not
> > >>        happy.
> > >
> > > If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.
> >
> > OK. So I made an improvement, but...
> >
> > > I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
> >
> > It's never too late to bring things up.
> >
> > > But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
> > > indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
> > walks
> > > inte to your
> > > shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
> > your shop).
> >
> > I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
> > buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
> > school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as
> > the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the cook,
> > signed by the bursar.
> >
> > > IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but
> > we
> > > don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
> > >
> > > I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
> >
> > I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
> > instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may
> > become tiresome to read.
> >
> > Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Adrian
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Teas mailing list
> > Teas@ietf.org
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>=20
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>=20
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Reply-To: <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, <teas@ietf.org>
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References: <161781991426.15865.4191431758501856588@ietfa.amsl.com> <06a201d72be3$8e1e9b20$aa5bd160$@olddog.co.uk> <2544_1620053359_60900D6F_2544_75_1_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933035375DEC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 19:17:03 +0100
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/DhJ6adNZv0o8jpD-5Pz1rNRvGJ8>
Subject: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
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Thanks Med,

I'm working on this now.

Imagine, hithub as a way of  exchanging a PDF version of Word mark-up
document :-)

Best,
Adrian
-----Original Message-----
From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>=20
Sent: 03 May 2021 15:49
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; teas@ietf.org
Cc: 'TEAS WG Chairs' <teas-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt

Hi Adrian, all,=20

FWIW, you may find some comments at:
* pdf:
https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blob/master/draft-ietf-t=
eas
-rfc3272bis-11-rev%20Med.pdf=20
* doc:
https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/master/draft-ietf-te=
as-
rfc3272bis-11-rev%20Med.docx =20

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel
> Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 7 avril 2021 21:24
> =C0=A0: teas@ietf.org
> Cc=A0: 'TEAS WG Chairs' <teas-chairs@ietf.org>
> Objet=A0: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
>=20
> With this version I have filled in the remaining TBDs:
> - small section on intent-based network
> - small section on multi-layer TE (thanks, Lou, for the suggestion)
> - change log from 3272
>=20
> As far as I'm concerned this document is complete modulo review
> comments.
>=20
> It *really* needs review, but I can't force you!
> Maybe you can look at the sections of special interest to you?
> Maybe the original Design Team could take another look?
>=20
> Otherwise: time for WG last call?
>=20
> Thanks,
> Adrian
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: I-D-Announce <i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of
> internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: 07 April 2021 19:25
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: teas@ietf.org
> Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and
> Signaling WG of the IETF.
>=20
>         Title           : Overview and Principles of Internet Traffic
> Engineering
>         Author          : Adrian Farrel
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
> 	Pages           : 91
> 	Date            : 2021-04-07
>=20
> Abstract:
>    This document describes the principles of traffic engineering (TE)
> in
>    the Internet.  The document is intended to promote better
>    understanding of the issues surrounding traffic engineering in IP
>    networks and the networks that support IP networking, and to
> provide
>    a common basis for the development of traffic engineering
>    capabilities for the Internet.  The principles, architectures, and
>    methodologies for performance evaluation and performance
> optimization
>    of operational networks are also discussed.
>=20
>    This work was first published as RFC 3272 in May 2002.  This
> document
>    obsoletes RFC 3272 by making a complete update to bring the text
> in
>    line with best current practices for Internet traffic engineering
> and
>    to include references to the latest relevant work in the IETF.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at
> tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Teas mailing list
> Teas@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

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From nobody Wed May  5 20:52:51 2021
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From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "'Loa Andersson'" <loa@pi.nu>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 03:52:39 +0000
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References: <037401d740c5$70a9cc30$51fd6490$@olddog.co.uk> <3ea262cf-e4c0-5ec0-9736-aedaf6d5d4d8@pi.nu> <009401d74195$41fd70a0$c5f851e0$@olddog.co.uk> <9933_1620212302_60927A4E_9933_344_1_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933035376DFA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <00a001d7419e$99e5a040$cdb0e0c0$@olddog.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Hi Adrian,

My feeling is in this context "customer" is better than "consumer". When ta=
lking about the customers of network services, there is also another term: =
tenant. Sometimes customer and tenant may be considered interchangeable, wh=
ile as you said customer can be generic covering either an individual, an e=
ntity, or a physical or logical component.

Best regards,
Jie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 7:06 PM
> To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>;
> teas@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slic=
es
>=20
> We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the documen=
t)
>=20
>    Customer:  A customer is the requester of an IETF Network Slice.
>       Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.  A customer may manage
>       the IETF Network Slice service directly by interfacing with the
>       IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator.
>=20
> We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise network o=
r a
> network operator, an individual working at such an entity, a private indi=
vidual
> contracting for a service, or an application or software component."
>=20
> Cheers,
> Adrian
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>; teas@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slic=
es
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> > Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>=20
> I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic eno=
ugh to
> denote a role/entity.
>=20
> Thanks.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Med
>=20
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De=A0: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel
> > Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C0=A0: 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.=
nu>;
> > teas@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with
> > draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices
> >
> > Hi Loa,
> >
> > > On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
> > >
> > >>   c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we
> > only need to
> > >>        use one term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed
> > best, but I
> > >>        know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you
> > are not
> > >>        happy.
> > >
> > > If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.
> >
> > OK. So I made an improvement, but...
> >
> > > I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
> >
> > It's never too late to bring things up.
> >
> > > But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
> > > indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
> > walks
> > > inte to your
> > > shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
> > your shop).
> >
> > I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
> > buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
> > school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as
> > the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the cook,
> > signed by the bursar.
> >
> > > IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but
> > we
> > > don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
> > >
> > > I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
> >
> > I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
> > instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may
> > become tiresome to read.
> >
> > Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Adrian
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Teas mailing list
> > Teas@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>=20
> ________________________________________________________________
> ____________
> _____________________________________________
>=20
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> responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
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> Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Teas mailing list
> Teas@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas


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From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 00:03:00 -0700
Message-Id: <473E68FE-410A-43AF-917E-552B0B00FFA4@gmail.com>
References: <CAKr2Fb_swXG49R9T1_ASL58zUuGLdsSad9rvyNWS-gDbKuQWgA@mail.gmail.com>
Cc: "Belotti, Sergio (Nokia - IT/Vimercate)" <sergio.belotti@nokia.com>, adrian@olddog.co.uk, "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" <reza.rokui@nokia.com>, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, teas@ietf.org, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
In-Reply-To: <CAKr2Fb_swXG49R9T1_ASL58zUuGLdsSad9rvyNWS-gDbKuQWgA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Shunsuke Homma <shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/hArzZe0evkqRlnzaSivsNcP3brQ>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Personally I prefer consumer, for similar reasons, however if there=E2=80=99=
s wg consensus to use customer, I=E2=80=99m ok with it, at the end it is the=
 meaning of the word, not the word itself.

Regards,
Jeff

> On May 5, 2021, at 06:23, Shunsuke Homma <shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com> w=
rote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> Hi,
>=20
> Sorry for cutting in...
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m not a native English speaker and I=E2=80=99m not sure if my un=
derstanding on the words is correct, but I think =E2=80=9Cconsumer=E2=80=9D w=
ould be more appropriate, because I feel that =E2=80=9Cconsumer=E2=80=9D imp=
lies people rend a slice from a slice provider with =E2=80=9Cpaying fee=E2=80=
=9D. (On the other hand, in my understanding, =E2=80=9Cconsumer=E2=80=9D mea=
ns a user of a service and it is independent of whether he/she pays fee or n=
ot.)
>=20
> As you know, network slice concept generally allows hierarchical structure=
 (of course, the current IETF network slice definition allows it). For examp=
le, an IETF network slice may be used to provide connectivity (and some func=
tionalities) to other slices, such as 5G slices, which are under the same pr=
ovider, for creating an E2E slice. In such case, can other slices or a highe=
r orchestrator coordinating these slices be called =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D=
? (In this case, there would not be any payments.)
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m sorry if my understanding on =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D is inc=
orrect and it can be applied to such cases.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Shunsuke=20
>=20
> 2021=E5=B9=B45=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5(=E6=B0=B4) 21:18 Belotti, Sergio (Nokia -=
 IT/Vimercate) <sergio.belotti@nokia.com>:
>> Hi Adrian,
>> +1
>>=20
>> Thanks
>> Sergio
>>=20
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Rokui, Reza (Nokia -
>> > CA/Ottawa)
>> > Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 1:13 PM
>> > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
>> > Cc: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; teas@ietf.org; Loa Andersson
>> > <loa@pi.nu>
>> > Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-sl=
ices
>> >=20
>> > Hi Adrian,
>> >=20
>> > I am fine with the definition of =E2=80=9CCustomer=E2=80=9D provided be=
low.
>> >=20
>> > Reza
>> >=20
>> > > On May 5, 2021, at 7:06 AM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote=
:
>> > >
>> > > =EF=BB=BFWe currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late i=
n the
>> > > document)
>> > >
>> > >   Customer:  A customer is the requester of an IETF Network Slice.
>> > >      Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.  A customer may manage=

>> > >      the IETF Network Slice service directly by interfacing with the
>> > >      IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator.
>> > >
>> > > We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise
>> > > network or a network operator, an individual working at such an
>> > > entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an
>> > > application or software component."
>> > >
>> > > Cheers,
>> > > Adrian
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
>> > <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
>> > > Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
>> > > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>; teas@ietf.org
>> > > Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with
>> > > draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
>> > >
>> > > Hi all,
>> > >
>> > >> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>> > >
>> > > I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic=

>> > > enough to denote a role/entity.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks.
>> > >
>> > > Cheers,
>> > > Med
>> > >
>> > >> -----Message d'origine-----
>> > >> De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel=

>> > >> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C3=80 : 'Loa Andersson' <lo=
a@pi.nu>;
>> > >> teas@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with
>> > >> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices
>> > >>
>> > >> Hi Loa,
>> > >>
>> > >>> On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>  c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we
>> > >> only need to
>> > >>>>       use one term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed
>> > >> best, but I
>> > >>>>       know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you
>> > >> are not
>> > >>>>       happy.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.
>> > >>
>> > >> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
>> > >>
>> > >>> I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
>> > >>
>> > >> It's never too late to bring things up.
>> > >>
>> > >>> But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
>> > >>> indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
>> > >> walks
>> > >>> inte to your
>> > >>> shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
>> > >> your shop).
>> > >>
>> > >> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that=

>> > >> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
>> > >> school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food a=
s
>> > >> the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
>> > >> cook, signed by the bursar.
>> > >>
>> > >>> IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but
>> > >> we
>> > >>> don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
>> > >>
>> > >> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
>> > >> instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may
>> > >> become tiresome to read.
>> > >>
>> > >> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>> > >>
>> > >> Cheers,
>> > >> Adrian
>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> Teas mailing list
>> > >> Teas@ietf.org
>> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>> > >
>> > >
>> > ________________________________________________________________
>> > ______
>> > > ______ _____________________________________________
>> > >
>> > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
>> > > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses,=

>> > > exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message
>> > > par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi
>> > > que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles=

>> > > d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete=

>> > > altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>> > >
>> > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or
>> > > privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not
>> > > be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> > > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender an=
d
>> > > delete this message and its attachments.
>> > > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have=

>> > > been modified, changed or falsified.
>> > > Thank you.
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Teas mailing list
>> > > Teas@ietf.org
>> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Teas mailing list
>> > Teas@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>> _______________________________________________
>> Teas mailing list
>> Teas@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
> _______________________________________________
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> Teas@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Personally I prefer consumer, for similar r=
easons, however if there=E2=80=99s wg consensus to use customer, I=E2=80=99m=
 ok with it, at the end it is the meaning of the word, not the word itself.<=
div><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Regards,<div>Jeff</div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><=
blockquote type=3D"cite">On May 5, 2021, at 06:23, Shunsuke Homma &lt;shunsu=
ke.homma.ietf@gmail.com&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div><p class=3D"p1" style=3D"margin:0p=
x;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><s=
pan class=3D"s1">Hi,</span></p><p class=3D"p2" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stre=
tch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;min-height:20.3px;color:rgb(0,0=
,0)"><span class=3D"s1"></span><br></p><p class=3D"p1" style=3D"margin:0px;f=
ont-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span=
 class=3D"s1">Sorry for cutting in...</span></p><p class=3D"p2" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;min-height:20.=
3px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1"></span><br></p><p class=3D"p1" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;color:=
rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1">I=E2=80=99m not a native English speaker and I=
=E2=80=99m not sure if my understanding on the words is correct, but I think=
 =E2=80=9Cconsumer=E2=80=9D would be more appropriate, because I feel that =E2=
=80=9Cconsumer=E2=80=9D implies people rend a slice from a slice provider wi=
th =E2=80=9Cpaying fee=E2=80=9D. (On the other hand, in my understanding, =E2=
=80=9Cconsumer=E2=80=9D means a user of a service and it is independent of w=
hether he/she pays fee or not.)</span></p><p class=3D"p2" style=3D"margin:0p=
x;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;min-height:20.3px;co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1"></span><br></p><p class=3D"p1" style=3D"m=
argin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,=
0,0)"><span class=3D"s1">As you know, network slice concept generally allows=
 hierarchical structure (of course, the current IETF network slice definitio=
n allows it). For example, an IETF network slice may be used to provide conn=
ectivity (and some functionalities) to other slices, such as 5G slices, whic=
h are under the same provider, for creating an E2E slice. In such case, can o=
ther slices or a higher orchestrator coordinating these slices be called =E2=
=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D? (In this case, there would not be any payments.)</s=
pan></p><p class=3D"p2" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17=
px;line-height:normal;min-height:20.3px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1"=
></span><br></p><p class=3D"p1" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font=
-size:17px;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1">I=E2=80=99=
m sorry if my understanding on =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D is incorrect and i=
t can be applied to such cases.</span></p><p class=3D"p2" style=3D"margin:0p=
x;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;min-height:20.3px;co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1"></span><br></p><p class=3D"p1" style=3D"m=
argin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,=
0,0)"><span class=3D"s1">Regards,</span></p><p class=3D"p2" style=3D"margin:=
0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;min-height:20.3px;=
color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1"></span><br></p><p class=3D"p1" style=3D=
"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;color:rgb(=
0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1">Shunsuke&nbsp;</span></p></div><div><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">2021=E5=B9=B45=E6=9C=
=885=E6=97=A5(=E6=B0=B4) 21:18 Belotti, Sergio (Nokia - IT/Vimercate) &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:sergio.belotti@nokia.com">sergio.belotti@nokia.com</a>&gt;:<=
br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-=
color:rgb(204,204,204)">Hi Adrian,<br>
+1<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
Sergio<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Teas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Rokui, Reza (Nokia -<br>
&gt; CA/Ottawa)<br>
&gt; Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 1:13 PM<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@old=
dog.co.uk</a><br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">m=
ohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">teas@ietf.org</a>; Loa Andersson<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;<br=
>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-sl=
ices<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Adrian,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I am fine with the definition of =E2=80=9CCustomer=E2=80=9D provided be=
low.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Reza<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; On May 5, 2021, at 7:06 AM, Adrian Farrel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ad=
rian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; =EF=BB=BFWe currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit lat=
e in the<br>
&gt; &gt; document)<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;Customer:&nbsp; A customer is the requester of an IETF=
 Network Slice.<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.&nbsp=
; A customer may manage<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the IETF Network Slice service directly by int=
erfacing with the<br>
&gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator=
.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise<br=
>
&gt; &gt; network or a network operator, an individual working at such an<br=
>
&gt; &gt; entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an<br>
&gt; &gt; application or software component."<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; &gt; Adrian<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a><br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">m=
ohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58<br>
&gt; &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adria=
n@olddog.co.uk</a>; 'Loa Andersson' &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D=
"_blank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">teas@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with<br>
&gt; &gt; draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi all,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is gene=
ric<br>
&gt; &gt; enough to denote a role/entity.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; &gt; Med<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; -----Message d'origine-----<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; De : Teas [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Adrian Farrel<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C3=80 : 'Loa Andersso=
n' &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;;<br>=

&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.o=
rg</a> Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Hi Loa,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this co=
nsistent (we<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; only need to<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;use one term). I selected "C=
ustomer" because that seemed<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; best, but I<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;know some people prefer "con=
sumer". Please discuss if you<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; are not<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;happy.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer c=
ustomer.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; OK. So I made an improvement, but...<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; It's never too late to bring things up.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; But I really don't like either, normal language has a stro=
ng<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; indication that that that a customer is a person (a person=
 that<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; walks<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; inte to your<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I boug=
ht at<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; your shop).<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the schoo=
l that<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call t=
he<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the f=
ood as<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by t=
he<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; cook, signed by the bursar.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and H=
W, but<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; we<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; don't specify normative rules for human behavior.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73<=
br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system"=
 may<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; become tiresome to read.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Adrian<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Teas mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.o=
rg</a><br>
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<br>
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es,<br>
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e<br>
&gt; &gt; par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ain=
si<br>
&gt; &gt; que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptib=
les<br>
&gt; &gt; d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a e=
te<br>
&gt; &gt; altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; This message and its attachments may contain confidential or<br>
&gt; &gt; privileged information that may be protected by law; they should n=
ot<br>
&gt; &gt; be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<br>
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&gt; &gt; Teas mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.org</=
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&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br>=

&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Teas mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.org</a><br=
>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Teas mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Teas m=
ailing list</span><br><span>Teas@ietf.org</span><br><span>https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/teas</span><br></div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Thu May  6 00:31:57 2021
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To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, teas@ietf.org
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From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
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Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 09:31:19 +0200
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/bllJsBDdkmr5xuZaBJkKtTq7iDE>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Adrian,

That is acceptable.

As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions 
section. I don't know if we can we place something in Section "2.  Terms 
and Abbreviations", but there seems to be only abbreviations.

Your wholesale example:

I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that 
buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school 
the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the 
customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the cook, 
signed by the bursar.

I think "the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The 
cook and the school kids could be viewed as consumers", one removed from 
the system.

It strikes me that "Customer System" and "IETF Slice" are somewhat 
similar, the risk is that we talk about "customer" (even if we change 
it), and "slice" (even though if is really "IETF Slice)",

Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I think we 
have a enough support to use "customer".

I rest my case.

/Loa


On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the document)
> 
>     Customer:  A customer is the requester of an IETF Network Slice.
>        Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.  A customer may manage
>        the IETF Network Slice service directly by interfacing with the
>        IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator.
> 
> We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise network or a
> network operator, an individual working at such an entity, a private
> individual contracting for a service, or an application or software
> component."
> 
> Cheers,
> Adrian
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>; teas@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
> 
> Hi all,
> 
>> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
> 
> I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic enough
> to denote a role/entity.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Cheers,
> Med
> 
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> DeÂ : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel
>> EnvoyÃ©Â : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59
>> Ã€Â : 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>; teas@ietf.org
>> ObjetÂ : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-
>> slices
>>
>> Hi Loa,
>>
>>> On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
>>>
>>>>    c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we
>> only need to
>>>>         use one term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed
>> best, but I
>>>>         know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you
>> are not
>>>>         happy.
>>>
>>> If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.
>>
>> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
>>
>>> I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
>>
>> It's never too late to bring things up.
>>
>>> But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
>>> indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
>> walks
>>> inte to your
>>> shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
>> your shop).
>>
>> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
>> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
>> school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as
>> the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
>> cook, signed by the bursar.
>>
>>> IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but
>> we
>>> don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
>>>
>>> I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
>>
>> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
>> instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may
>> become tiresome to read.
>>
>> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Adrian
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Teas mailing list
>> Teas@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> _____________________________________________
> 
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu
> ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages
> electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou
> falsifie. Merci.
> 
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged
> information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and
> delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been
> modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Teas mailing list
> Teas@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
> 

-- 

Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS Expert                          loa.pi.nu@gmail.com
Bronze Dragon Consulting             phone: +46 739 81 21 64


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To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 14:25:46 +0000 (UTC)
From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>,  "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>,  "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Oscar_Gonz=C3=A1lez_de_Dios?= <oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>
Message-ID: <914297092.1179550.1620311146249@mail.yahoo.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/m1Yl-o6RviKaqEDoWlf-8945ICQ>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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 Hi Adrian,
I probably missed the discussion, but how do we reconcile=C2=A0 two IETF st=
ories - network slicing and SFCs? Surely, at some point a network slice cli=
ent will ask the provider not just only to deliver its traffic from A to B =
with delay no worse than D, but also to do something else with the data (e.=
g. DPI). On the other hand, when we talk about SFCs we cannot assume I thin=
k any longer the context of a physical (not sliced) network. I do not suppo=
se we can simply mandate the SF placement at network slice end points or so=
mewhere outside network slices - this approach would probably not scale wel=
l.=C2=A0
So, the question is how SFs relate to network slices, in particular, to the=
ir SLAs, SLOs and topologies?
Thanks,Igor
    On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 07:53:32 AM EDT, Oscar Gonz=C3=A1lez de Dios =
<oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com> wrote: =20
=20
 Hi Adrian,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think what is really relevant is to have a cl=
ear definition on the chosen term to avoid misunderstandings. Unfortunately=
 today customer/consumer/client are used also in other contexts that might =
bring extra implications.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Said that, I am fine with the term custo=
mer. There are still a couple of places in the document where the term "ser=
vice customer" is used. Please change those to "IETF Network Slice customer=
" to be coherent.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 One argument in favor of the term customer is t=
hat the "IETF Network slice customer" makes use of the slice to fulfill its=
 needs (can be carry the traffic from a to b with a set of SLOs) and manage=
 the granted slice (that is, it can rearrange the resources it is allowed t=
o).=C2=A0 The term consumer misses the management part, which is a key diff=
erentiator of a slice.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 In the definition of customer, Can we just say:=
 " A customer may manage the granted IETF Network Slice.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Also, I'd like to clarify between the managemen=
t of the IETF Network slice that the customer can do and the management the=
 provider can do. The customer can "play" within the allocated resources, b=
ut may have some limitations. One question, the ability to manage the slice=
, is part of an SLO? Or should be defined separately with a different term?=
 It would be interesting to have the possibility to indicate what the slice=
 customer can manage and what not...

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I support moving earlier in the document the de=
finition of the IETF Network Slice Customer and, also, add a definition for=
 the IETF Network Slice Provider (although only "provider" is used thought =
the text).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Best Regards,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Oscar


-----Mensaje original-----
De: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> En nombre de Loa Andersson
Enviado el: jueves, 6 de mayo de 2021 9:31
Para: adrian@olddog.co.uk; mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; teas@ietf.org
Asunto: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices

Adrian,

That is acceptable.

As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions sec=
tion. I don't know if we can we place something in Section "2.=C2=A0 Terms =
and Abbreviations", but there seems to be only abbreviations.

Your wholesale example:

I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that buys f=
ood at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school the cust=
omer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the customer? The co=
ntract is with the school, negotiated by the cook, signed by the bursar.

I think "the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The cook=
 and the school kids could be viewed as consumers", one removed from the sy=
stem.

It strikes me that "Customer System" and "IETF Slice" are somewhat similar,=
 the risk is that we talk about "customer" (even if we change it), and "sli=
ce" (even though if is really "IETF Slice)",

Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I think we ha=
ve a enough support to use "customer".

I rest my case.

/Loa


On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the
> document)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Customer:=C2=A0 A customer is the requester of an IETF Netwo=
rk Slice.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.=C2=
=A0 A customer may manage
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the IETF Network Slice service directly by int=
erfacing with the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator=
.
>
> We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise
> network or a network operator, an individual working at such an
> entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an
> application or software component."
>
> Cheers,
> Adrian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>; teas@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with
> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
>
> Hi all,
>
>> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>
> I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic
> enough to denote a role/entity.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Cheers,
> Med
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel
>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C3=80 : 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi=
.nu>;
>> teas@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with
>> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices
>>
>> Hi Loa,
>>
>>> On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent =
(we
>> only need to
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 use one term). I selected "Customer" becaus=
e that seemed
>> best, but I
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 know some people prefer "consumer". Please =
discuss if you
>> are not
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 happy.
>>>
>>> If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.
>>
>> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
>>
>>> I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
>>
>> It's never too late to bring things up.
>>
>>> But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
>>> indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
>> walks
>>> inte to your
>>> shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
>> your shop).
>>
>> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
>> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
>> school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as
>> the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
>> cook, signed by the bursar.
>>
>>> IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but
>> we
>>> don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
>>>
>>> I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
>>
>> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
>> instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may
>> become tiresome to read.
>>
>> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Adrian
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Teas mailing list
>> Teas@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
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--

Loa Andersson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS Expert=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 loa.pi.nu@gmail.com
Bronze Dragon Consulting=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 phone: +4=
6 739 81 21 64

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 =20
------=_Part_1179549_1471559124.1620311146246
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydp5cc0de1fyahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1=
3px;"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Hi Adrian,</div><div dir=3D"=
ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"=
>I probably missed the discussion, but how do we reconcile&nbsp; two IETF s=
tories - network slicing and SFCs? Surely, at some point a network slice cl=
ient will ask the provider not just only to deliver its traffic from A to B=
 with delay no worse than D, but also to do something else with the data (e=
.g. DPI). On the other hand, when we talk about SFCs we cannot assume I thi=
nk any longer the context of a physical (not sliced) network. I do not supp=
ose we can simply mandate the SF placement at network slice end points or s=
omewhere outside network slices - this approach would probably not scale we=
ll.&nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">So, the question is how SFs relate to network s=
lices, in particular, to their SLAs, SLOs and topologies?</div><div dir=3D"=
ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"=
>Thanks,</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Igor</div><div><br></d=
iv>
       =20
        </div><div id=3D"yahoo_quoted_0787303809" class=3D"yahoo_quoted">
            <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
               =20
                <div>
                    On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 07:53:32 AM EDT, Oscar Gonz=
=C3=A1lez de Dios &lt;oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com&gt; wrote:
                </div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Adrian,<br clear=3D"none"><br clea=
r=3D"none">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I think what is really relevant is t=
o have a clear definition on the chosen term to avoid misunderstandings. Un=
fortunately today customer/consumer/client are used also in other contexts =
that might bring extra implications.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">&=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Said that, I am fine with the term custom=
er. There are still a couple of places in the document where the term "serv=
ice customer" is used. Please change those to "IETF Network Slice customer"=
 to be coherent.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; One argument in favor of the term customer is that the "IETF Network=
 slice customer" makes use of the slice to fulfill its needs (can be carry =
the traffic from a to b with a set of SLOs) and manage the granted slice (t=
hat is, it can rearrange the resources it is allowed to).&nbsp; The term co=
nsumer misses the management part, which is a key differentiator of a slice=
.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In the d=
efinition of customer, Can we just say: " A customer may manage the granted=
 IETF Network Slice.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; Also, I'd like to clarify between the management of the IETF Net=
work slice that the customer can do and the management the provider can do.=
 The customer can "play" within the allocated resources, but may have some =
limitations. One question, the ability to manage the slice, is part of an S=
LO? Or should be defined separately with a different term? It would be inte=
resting to have the possibility to indicate what the slice customer can man=
age and what not...<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; I support moving earlier in the document the definition of the IE=
TF Network Slice Customer and, also, add a definition for the IETF Network =
Slice Provider (although only "provider" is used thought the text).<br clea=
r=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Best Regards,<br =
clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; Oscar<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none=
">-----Mensaje original-----<br clear=3D"none">De: Teas &lt;<a shape=3D"rec=
t" ymailto=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@iet=
f.org">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; En nombre de Loa Andersson<br clear=3D=
"none">Enviado el: jueves, 6 de mayo de 2021 9:31<br clear=3D"none">Para: <=
a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" href=3D"mailto:adri=
an@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>; <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mail=
to:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.co=
m">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>; <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:te=
as@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a><br clear=3D"no=
ne">Asunto: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-sli=
ces<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Adrian,<br clear=3D"none"><br clea=
r=3D"none">That is acceptable.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">As you =
said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions section. I=
 don't know if we can we place something in Section "2.&nbsp; Terms and Abb=
reviations", but there seems to be only abbreviations.<br clear=3D"none"><b=
r clear=3D"none">Your wholesale example:<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"non=
e">I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that buy=
s food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school the c=
ustomer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the customer? The=
 contract is with the school, negotiated by the cook, signed by the bursar.=
<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">I think "the school! is the customer,=
 which is OK in this context. The cook and the school kids could be viewed =
as consumers", one removed from the system.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"=
none">It strikes me that "Customer System" and "IETF Slice" are somewhat si=
milar, the risk is that we talk about "customer" (even if we change it), an=
d "slice" (even though if is really "IETF Slice)",<br clear=3D"none"><br cl=
ear=3D"none">Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, =
I think we have a enough support to use "customer".<br clear=3D"none"><br c=
lear=3D"none">I rest my case.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">/Loa<br =
clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">On 05/05/2021 13:05, A=
drian Farrel wrote:<br clear=3D"none">&gt; We currently have (in section 5.=
1, which may be a bit late in the<br clear=3D"none">&gt; document)<br clear=
=3D"none">&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  Customer:&nbsp; A custo=
mer is the requester of an IETF Network Slice.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.&nbsp; A cus=
tomer may manage<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the IETF=
 Network Slice service directly by interfacing with the<br clear=3D"none">&=
gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrat=
or.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt; We could add "A customer =
may be an entity such as an enterprise<br clear=3D"none">&gt; network or a =
network operator, an individual working at such an<br clear=3D"none">&gt; e=
ntity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an<br clear=3D"no=
ne">&gt; application or software component."<br clear=3D"none">&gt;<br clea=
r=3D"none">&gt; Cheers,<br clear=3D"none">&gt; Adrian<br clear=3D"none">&gt=
;<br clear=3D"none">&gt; -----Original Message-----<br clear=3D"none">&gt; =
From: <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" hre=
f=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a> =
&lt;<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" href=
=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&g=
t;<br clear=3D"none">&gt; Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58<br clear=3D"none">&gt; To=
: <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" href=3D"mailto:a=
drian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>; 'Loa Andersson' &lt;<a shape=
=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu<=
/a>&gt;; <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:=
teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a><br clear=3D"none">&gt; Subject: RE: [Teas]=
 Moving forward with<br clear=3D"none">&gt; draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-sl=
ices<br clear=3D"none">&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt; Hi all,<br clear=3D"none=
">&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the to=
pic?<br clear=3D"none">&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt; I would simply use "cust=
omer" and make sure the definition is generic<br clear=3D"none">&gt; enough=
 to denote a role/entity.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt; Tha=
nks.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt; Cheers,<br clear=3D"none=
">&gt; Med<br clear=3D"none">&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; -----Message d=
'origine-----<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; De : Teas [mailto:<a shape=3D"rect=
" ymailto=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf=
.org">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Adrian Farrel<br clear=3D"no=
ne">&gt;&gt; Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C3=80 : 'Loa Andersso=
n' &lt;<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" href=3D"mailto:loa@pi=
.nu">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; <a shape=3D"rect" ymailt=
o=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a> =
Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; draft-iet=
f-teas-ietf-network- slices<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&g=
t;&gt; Hi Loa,<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; On=
 customer vs. consumer Adrian says:<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=
=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have=
 made this consistent (we<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; only need to<br clear=
=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;  use one term). I sel=
ected "Customer" because that seemed<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; best, but I=
<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;  know some p=
eople prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; a=
re not<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;  happy=
.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; If the choi=
ce is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.<br clear=3D"none">&=
gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; OK. So I made an improvement, but...<br =
clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; I don't know if it i=
s too late to bring this up.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&=
gt;&gt; It's never too late to bring things up.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;<=
br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; But I really don't like either, normal langu=
age has a strong<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; indication that that that a=
 customer is a person (a person that<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; walks<br cl=
ear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; inte to your<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; shop)=
 and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at<br clear=3D"none=
">&gt;&gt; your shop).<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt=
; I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that<br c=
lear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do=
 you call the<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; school the customer, or do you ref=
er to the cook who buys the food as<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; the customer=
? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the<br clear=3D"none">&gt;=
&gt; cook, signed by the bursar.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"non=
e">&gt;&gt;&gt; IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and H=
W, but<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; we<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; don't s=
pecify normative rules for human behavior.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt;<b=
r clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; I don't know if we can talk about Customer Sy=
stem?<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; I'm afraid of t=
his getting heavy for the reader. There are 73<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; i=
nstances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may<br clear=
=3D"none">&gt;&gt; become tiresome to read.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;<br c=
lear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br cle=
ar=3D"none">&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br clear=3D"none">&=
gt;&gt; Adrian<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; ______=
_________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; Teas m=
ailing list<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:=
Teas@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org">Teas@ietf.org</a><br clear=3D"=
none">&gt;&gt; <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/teas" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><=
br clear=3D"none">&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt; _____________________________=
_________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">&gt; ______ ___=
__________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">&gt;<br clear=
=3D"none">&gt; Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des inform=
ations<br clear=3D"none">&gt; confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent=
 donc pas etre diffuses,<br clear=3D"none">&gt; exploites ou copies sans au=
torisation. Si vous avez recu ce message<br clear=3D"none">&gt; par erreur,=
 veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi<br clear=3D"none"=
>&gt; que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles=
<br clear=3D"none">&gt; d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite s=
i ce message a ete<br clear=3D"none">&gt; altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merc=
i.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt; This message and its attac=
hments may contain confidential or<br clear=3D"none">&gt; privileged inform=
ation that may be protected by law; they should not<br clear=3D"none">&gt; =
be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<br clear=3D"none">&gt=
; If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and<br=
 clear=3D"none">&gt; delete this message and its attachments.<br clear=3D"n=
one">&gt; As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that =
have<br clear=3D"none">&gt; been modified, changed or falsified.<br clear=
=3D"none">&gt; Thank you.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt; ___=
____________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">&gt; Teas ma=
iling list<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Teas@=
ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org">Teas@ietf.org</a><br clear=3D"none"=
>&gt; <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br clear=
=3D"none">&gt;<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">--<br clear=3D"none"><b=
r clear=3D"none">Loa Andersson&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; email: <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"=
mailto:loa@pi.nu" href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu</a><br clear=3D"none"=
>Senior MPLS Expert&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:loa.=
pi.nu@gmail.com" href=3D"mailto:loa.pi.nu@gmail.com">loa.pi.nu@gmail.com</a=
><br clear=3D"none">Bronze Dragon Consulting&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp;  phone: +46 739 81 21 64<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">__=
_____________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">Teas mailin=
g list<br clear=3D"none"><a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org"=
 href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org">Teas@ietf.org</a><br clear=3D"none"><a shape=
=3D"rect" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br clear=3D"none"><br c=
lear=3D"none">________________________________<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=
=3D"none">Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destin=
atario, puede contener informaci=C3=B3n privilegiada o confidencial y es pa=
ra uso exclusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el des=
tinatario indicado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=C3=B3n, d=
ivulgaci=C3=B3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=C3=B3n puede estar prohibida en vi=
rtud de la legislaci=C3=B3n vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error,=
 le rogamos que nos lo comunique inmediatamente por esta misma v=C3=ADa y p=
roceda a su destrucci=C3=B3n.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">The info=
rmation contained in this transmission is privileged and confidential infor=
mation intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. I=
f the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby =
notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communicat=
ion is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error=
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clear=3D"none">Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu=
 destinat=C3=A1rio, pode conter informa=C3=A7=C3=A3o privilegiada ou confid=
encial e =C3=A9 para uso exclusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=
=C3=A3o =C3=A9 vossa senhoria o destinat=C3=A1rio indicado, fica notificado=
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ia sem autoriza=C3=A7=C3=A3o pode estar proibida em virtude da legisla=C3=
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o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e proceda a sua destrui=C3=A7=
=C3=A3o<div class=3D"yqt0175842701" id=3D"yqtfd67225"><br clear=3D"none">__=
_____________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">Teas mailin=
g list<br clear=3D"none"><a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org"=
 href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org">Teas@ietf.org</a><br clear=3D"none"><a shape=
=3D"rect" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br clear=3D"none"></div=
></div></div>
            </div>
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------=_Part_1179549_1471559124.1620311146246--


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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Oscar_Gonz=E1lez_de_Dios?= <oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 15:48:00 +0000
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References: <037401d740c5$70a9cc30$51fd6490$@olddog.co.uk> <3ea262cf-e4c0-5ec0-9736-aedaf6d5d4d8@pi.nu> <009401d74195$41fd70a0$c5f851e0$@olddog.co.uk> <9933_1620212302_60927A4E_9933_344_1_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933035376DFA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <00a001d7419e$99e5a040$cdb0e0c0$@olddog.co.uk> <03cf404d-59a7-0ec5-e18f-0a98bf638c0f@pi.nu> <PAXPR06MB7872B2DEF299B15988966A9DFD589@PAXPR06MB7872.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> <914297092.1179550.1620311146249@mail.yahoo.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/1vWb8NOhOJa4m0seTHRY6spkR4k>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Igor,

Given the IETF Network Slice Service definition that Eric and I proposed, I=
 think we could add an SFC definition to the SLO definition for each sender=
 to a given connectivity construct.  It would indicate that a packet from t=
hat sender to each receiver would pass through the specified SFC before bei=
ng received.  This is consistent with  what is described in:  https://datat=
racker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-nsh-bgp-control-plane-18.

Yours Irrespectively,

John



Juniper Business Use Only
From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 10:26 AM
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>; adrian@olddog.co.uk; mohamed.boucadair@orang=
e.com; teas@ietf.org; Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios <oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefo=
nica.com>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

Hi Adrian,

I probably missed the discussion, but how do we reconcile  two IETF stories=
 - network slicing and SFCs? Surely, at some point a network slice client w=
ill ask the provider not just only to deliver its traffic from A to B with =
delay no worse than D, but also to do something else with the data (e.g. DP=
I). On the other hand, when we talk about SFCs we cannot assume I think any=
 longer the context of a physical (not sliced) network. I do not suppose we=
 can simply mandate the SF placement at network slice end points or somewhe=
re outside network slices - this approach would probably not scale well.

So, the question is how SFs relate to network slices, in particular, to the=
ir SLAs, SLOs and topologies?

Thanks,
Igor

On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 07:53:32 AM EDT, Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios <oscar.=
gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com<mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>> =
wrote:


Hi Adrian,

        I think what is really relevant is to have a clear definition on th=
e chosen term to avoid misunderstandings. Unfortunately today customer/cons=
umer/client are used also in other contexts that might bring extra implicat=
ions.

          Said that, I am fine with the term customer. There are still a co=
uple of places in the document where the term "service customer" is used. P=
lease change those to "IETF Network Slice customer" to be coherent.

        One argument in favor of the term customer is that the "IETF Networ=
k slice customer" makes use of the slice to fulfill its needs (can be carry=
 the traffic from a to b with a set of SLOs) and manage the granted slice (=
that is, it can rearrange the resources it is allowed to).  The term consum=
er misses the management part, which is a key differentiator of a slice.

        In the definition of customer, Can we just say: " A customer may ma=
nage the granted IETF Network Slice.

        Also, I'd like to clarify between the management of the IETF Networ=
k slice that the customer can do and the management the provider can do. Th=
e customer can "play" within the allocated resources, but may have some lim=
itations. One question, the ability to manage the slice, is part of an SLO?=
 Or should be defined separately with a different term? It would be interes=
ting to have the possibility to indicate what the slice customer can manage=
 and what not...

        I support moving earlier in the document the definition of the IETF=
 Network Slice Customer and, also, add a definition for the IETF Network Sl=
ice Provider (although only "provider" is used thought the text).

        Best Regards,

                Oscar


-----Mensaje original-----
De: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>> En nombre de=
 Loa Andersson
Enviado el: jueves, 6 de mayo de 2021 9:31
Para: adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>; mohamed.boucadair@or=
ange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>; teas@ietf.org<mailto:teas@ie=
tf.org>
Asunto: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices

Adrian,

That is acceptable.

As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions sec=
tion. I don't know if we can we place something in Section "2.  Terms and A=
bbreviations", but there seems to be only abbreviations.

Your wholesale example:

I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that buys f=
ood at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school the cust=
omer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the customer? The co=
ntract is with the school, negotiated by the cook, signed by the bursar.

I think "the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The cook=
 and the school kids could be viewed as consumers", one removed from the sy=
stem.

It strikes me that "Customer System" and "IETF Slice" are somewhat similar,=
 the risk is that we talk about "customer" (even if we change it), and "sli=
ce" (even though if is really "IETF Slice)",

Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I think we ha=
ve a enough support to use "customer".

I rest my case.

/Loa


On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the
> document)
>
>    Customer:  A customer is the requester of an IETF Network Slice.
>        Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.  A customer may manage
>        the IETF Network Slice service directly by interfacing with the
>        IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator.
>
> We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise
> network or a network operator, an individual working at such an
> entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an
> application or software component."
>
> Cheers,
> Adrian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> <=
mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>>
> Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>; 'Loa Andersson' <loa=
@pi.nu<mailto:loa@pi.nu>>; teas@ietf.org<mailto:teas@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with
> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
>
> Hi all,
>
>> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>
> I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic
> enough to denote a role/entity.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Cheers,
> Med
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>] D=
e la part de Adrian Farrel
>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C0 : 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu<ma=
ilto:loa@pi.nu>>;
>> teas@ietf.org<mailto:teas@ietf.org> Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward wi=
th
>> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices
>>
>> Hi Loa,
>>
>>> On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
>>>
>>>>    c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we
>> only need to
>>>>        use one term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed
>> best, but I
>>>>        know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you
>> are not
>>>>        happy.
>>>
>>> If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.
>>
>> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
>>
>>> I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
>>
>> It's never too late to bring things up.
>>
>>> But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
>>> indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
>> walks
>>> inte to your
>>> shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
>> your shop).
>>
>> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
>> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
>> school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as
>> the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
>> cook, signed by the bursar.
>>
>>> IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but
>> we
>>> don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
>>>
>>> I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
>>
>> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
>> instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may
>> become tiresome to read.
>>
>> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Adrian
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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--

Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu<mailto:loa@pi.nu>
Senior MPLS Expert                          loa.pi.nu@gmail.com<mailto:loa.=
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Bronze Dragon Consulting            phone: +46 739 81 21 64

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</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:brea=
k-word">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Igor,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Given the IETF Network Slice Service definition that=
 Eric and I proposed, I think we could add an SFC definition to the SLO def=
inition for each sender to a given connectivity construct.&nbsp; It would i=
ndicate that a packet from that sender
 to each receiver would pass through the specified SFC before being receive=
d.&nbsp; This is consistent with &nbsp;what is described in:&nbsp;
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-nsh-bgp-co=
ntrol-plane-18">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-nsh-bgp-control-plane=
-18</a>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Yours Irrespectively,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">John<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;text-a=
lign:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Teas &lt;teas-bounces@ietf.org&gt; <b>O=
n Behalf Of </b>
Igor Bryskin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 6, 2021 10:26 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Loa Andersson &lt;loa@pi.nu&gt;; adrian@olddog.co.uk; mohamed.bo=
ucadair@orange.com; teas@ietf.org; Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios &lt;oscar.gonza=
lezdedios@telefonica.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network=
-slices<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:12.0pt;background:#FFEB9C"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Lato&quot;,sans-serif;colo=
r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Hi Adrian,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif">I probably missed the discussion, but how do we r=
econcile&nbsp; two IETF stories - network slicing and SFCs? Surely, at some=
 point a network slice client will ask the provider
 not just only to deliver its traffic from A to B with delay no worse than =
D, but also to do something else with the data (e.g. DPI). On the other han=
d, when we talk about SFCs we cannot assume I think any longer the context =
of a physical (not sliced) network.
 I do not suppose we can simply mandate the SF placement at network slice e=
nd points or somewhere outside network slices - this approach would probabl=
y not scale well.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif">So, the question is how SFs relate to network sli=
ces, in particular, to their SLAs, SLOs and topologies?<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Igor<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"yahoo_quoted_0787303809">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 07:53:32 =
AM EDT, Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios=
@telefonica.com">oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com</a>&gt;
 wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">Hi Adrian,<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I think what is really relevant is to have a cl=
ear definition on the chosen term to avoid misunderstandings. Unfortunately=
 today customer/consumer/client are used also in other contexts that might =
bring extra implications.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Said that, I am fine with the term custo=
mer. There are still a couple of places in the document where the term &quo=
t;service customer&quot; is used. Please change those to &quot;IETF Network=
 Slice customer&quot; to be coherent.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; One argument in favor of the term customer is t=
hat the &quot;IETF Network slice customer&quot; makes use of the slice to f=
ulfill its needs (can be carry the traffic from a to b with a set of SLOs) =
and manage the granted slice (that is, it can rearrange the resources
 it is allowed to).&nbsp; The term consumer misses the management part, whi=
ch is a key differentiator of a slice.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In the definition of customer, Can we just say:=
 &quot; A customer may manage the granted IETF Network Slice.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Also, I'd like to clarify between the managemen=
t of the IETF Network slice that the customer can do and the management the=
 provider can do. The customer can &quot;play&quot; within the allocated re=
sources, but may have some limitations. One question, the ability
 to manage the slice, is part of an SLO? Or should be defined separately wi=
th a different term? It would be interesting to have the possibility to ind=
icate what the slice customer can manage and what not...<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I support moving earlier in the document the de=
finition of the IETF Network Slice Customer and, also, add a definition for=
 the IETF Network Slice Provider (although only &quot;provider&quot; is use=
d thought the text).<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Best Regards,<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Oscar<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Mensaje original-----<br>
De: Teas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org">teas-bounces@ietf.org=
</a>&gt; En nombre de Loa Andersson<br>
Enviado el: jueves, 6 de mayo de 2021 9:31<br>
Para: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>; <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">
mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@iet=
f.org</a><br>
Asunto: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices<=
br>
<br>
Adrian,<br>
<br>
That is acceptable.<br>
<br>
As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions sec=
tion. I don't know if we can we place something in Section &quot;2.&nbsp; T=
erms and Abbreviations&quot;, but there seems to be only abbreviations.<br>
<br>
Your wholesale example:<br>
<br>
I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that buys f=
ood at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school the cust=
omer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the customer? The co=
ntract is with the school, negotiated
 by the cook, signed by the bursar.<br>
<br>
I think &quot;the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The=
 cook and the school kids could be viewed as consumers&quot;, one removed f=
rom the system.<br>
<br>
It strikes me that &quot;Customer System&quot; and &quot;IETF Slice&quot; a=
re somewhat similar, the risk is that we talk about &quot;customer&quot; (e=
ven if we change it), and &quot;slice&quot; (even though if is really &quot=
;IETF Slice)&quot;,<br>
<br>
Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I think we ha=
ve a enough support to use &quot;customer&quot;.<br>
<br>
I rest my case.<br>
<br>
/Loa<br>
<br>
<br>
On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:<br>
&gt; We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the<br>
&gt; document)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Customer:&nbsp; A customer is the requester of an IETF Ne=
twork Slice.<br>
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.&n=
bsp; A customer may manage<br>
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the IETF Network Slice service directly by =
interfacing with the<br>
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestra=
tor.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; We could add &quot;A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise<b=
r>
&gt; network or a network operator, an individual working at such an<br>
&gt; entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an<br>
&gt; application or software component.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; Adrian<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadai=
r@orange.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohame=
d.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>; 'L=
oa Andersson' &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I would simply use &quot;customer&quot; and make sure the definition i=
s generic<br>
&gt; enough to denote a role/entity.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; Med<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -----Message d'origine-----<br>
&gt;&gt; De : Teas [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org">teas-bo=
unces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Adrian Farrel<br>
&gt;&gt; Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C0 : 'Loa Andersson' &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a> Objet : Re: [Te=
as] Moving forward with<br>
&gt;&gt; draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Loa,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; c. &quot;Consumer&quot; vs &quot;customer&quo=
t;. I have made this consistent (we<br>
&gt;&gt; only need to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; use one term). I selected &quot=
;Customer&quot; because that seemed<br>
&gt;&gt; best, but I<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; know some people prefer &quot;c=
onsumer&quot;. Please discuss if you<br>
&gt;&gt; are not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; happy.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer custo=
mer.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; OK. So I made an improvement, but...<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; It's never too late to bring things up.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; indication that that that a customer is a person (a person tha=
t<br>
&gt;&gt; walks<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; inte to your<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought a=
t<br>
&gt;&gt; your shop).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school th=
at<br>
&gt;&gt; buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the<=
br>
&gt;&gt; school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food=
 as<br>
&gt;&gt; the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; cook, signed by the bursar.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; IETF specifies &quot;systems&quot;, including what goes into S=
W and HW, but<br>
&gt;&gt; we<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; don't specify normative rules for human behavior.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73<br>
&gt;&gt; instances of &quot;customer&quot; in the document, and &quot;custo=
mer system&quot; may<br>
&gt;&gt; become tiresome to read.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt; Adrian<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; Teas mailing list<br>
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<br>
--<br>
<br>
Loa Andersson&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; email: <a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu</a><br>
Senior MPLS Expert&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href=3D"mailto:loa.pi.nu@gmail.com">
loa.pi.nu@gmail.com</a><br>
Bronze Dragon Consulting&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; phone: +4=
6 739 81 21 64<br>
<br>
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Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 16:38:37 +0000 (UTC)
From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
To: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>,  "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>,  "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Oscar_Gonz=C3=A1lez_de_Dios?= <oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>,  John E Drake <jdrake=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/7kJjXb5x32V4ICkQ_0ZufXJka-4>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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------=_Part_1252603_951777460.1620319117285
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
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 Thanks John,
But wouldn't the client want to constrain the connectivity for a given link=
 in the specified SFC, say, to be more stringent than end-to-end (perhaps b=
y a separate set of SLOs)?
Also, could the client have a say on location of SFs? For example, can it i=
nstruct to avoid a country or DC?
Igor
    On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 11:48:22 AM EDT, John E Drake <jdrake=3D40jun=
iper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: =20
=20
 #yiv6988404160 #yiv6988404160 -- _filtered {} _filtered {} _filtered {} _f=
iltered {}#yiv6988404160 #yiv6988404160 p.yiv6988404160MsoNormal, #yiv69884=
04160 li.yiv6988404160MsoNormal, #yiv6988404160 div.yiv6988404160MsoNormal =
{margin:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv6988404160 a:link,=
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underline;}#yiv6988404160 span.yiv6988404160EmailStyle18 {font-family:sans-=
serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv6988404160 p.yiv6988404160msipfooter30b3d538, #=
yiv6988404160 li.yiv6988404160msipfooter30b3d538, #yiv6988404160 div.yiv698=
8404160msipfooter30b3d538 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv6988404160 .yiv6988404160MsoChpDefault {font-=
size:10.0pt;} _filtered {}#yiv6988404160 div.yiv6988404160WordSection1 {}#y=
iv6988404160=20
Igor,
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
Given the IETF Network Slice Service definition that Eric and I proposed, I=
 think we could add an SFC definition to the SLO definition for each sender=
 to a given connectivity construct.=C2=A0 It would indicate that a packet f=
rom that sender to each receiver would pass through the specified SFC befor=
e being received.=C2=A0 This is consistent with =C2=A0what is described in:=
=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-nsh-bgp-control=
-plane-18.
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
Yours Irrespectively,
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
John
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
Juniper Business Use Only
=20
From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 10:26 AM
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>; adrian@olddog.co.uk; mohamed.boucadair@orang=
e.com; teas@ietf.org; Oscar Gonz=C3=A1lez de Dios <oscar.gonzalezdedios@tel=
efonica.com>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
[External Email. Be cautious of content]
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
Hi Adrian,
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
I probably missed the discussion, but how do we reconcile=C2=A0 two IETF st=
ories - network slicing and SFCs? Surely, at some point a network slice cli=
ent will ask the provider not just only to deliver its traffic from A to B =
with delay no worse than D, but also to do something else with the data (e.=
g. DPI). On the other hand, when we talk about SFCs we cannot assume I thin=
k any longer the context of a physical (not sliced) network. I do not suppo=
se we can simply mandate the SF placement at network slice end points or so=
mewhere outside network slices - this approach would probably not scale wel=
l.=C2=A0
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
So, the question is how SFs relate to network slices, in particular, to the=
ir SLAs, SLOs and topologies?
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
Thanks,
=20
Igor
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 07:53:32 AM EDT, Oscar Gonz=C3=A1lez de Dios <osc=
ar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com> wrote:=20
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
Hi Adrian,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think what is really relevant is to have a cl=
ear definition on the chosen term to avoid misunderstandings. Unfortunately=
 today customer/consumer/client are used also in other contexts that might =
bring extra implications.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Said that, I am fine with the term custo=
mer. There are still a couple of places in the document where the term "ser=
vice customer" is used. Please change those to "IETF Network Slice customer=
" to be coherent.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 One argument in favor of the term customer is t=
hat the "IETF Network slice customer" makes use of the slice to fulfill its=
 needs (can be carry the traffic from a to b with a set of SLOs) and manage=
 the granted slice (that is, it can rearrange the resources it is allowed t=
o).=C2=A0 The term consumer misses the management part, which is a key diff=
erentiator of a slice.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 In the definition of customer, Can we just say:=
 " A customer may manage the granted IETF Network Slice.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Also, I'd like to clarify between the managemen=
t of the IETF Network slice that the customer can do and the management the=
 provider can do. The customer can "play" within the allocated resources, b=
ut may have some limitations. One question, the ability to manage the slice=
, is part of an SLO? Or should be defined separately with a different term?=
 It would be interesting to have the possibility to indicate what the slice=
 customer can manage and what not...

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I support moving earlier in the document the de=
finition of the IETF Network Slice Customer and, also, add a definition for=
 the IETF Network Slice Provider (although only "provider" is used thought =
the text).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Best Regards,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Oscar


-----Mensaje original-----
De: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> En nombre de Loa Andersson
Enviado el: jueves, 6 de mayo de 2021 9:31
Para: adrian@olddog.co.uk; mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; teas@ietf.org
Asunto: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices

Adrian,

That is acceptable.

As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions sec=
tion. I don't know if we can we place something in Section "2.=C2=A0 Terms =
and Abbreviations", but there seems to be only abbreviations.

Your wholesale example:

I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that buys f=
ood at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school the cust=
omer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the customer? The co=
ntract is with the school, negotiated by the cook, signed by the bursar.

I think "the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The cook=
 and the school kids could be viewed as consumers", one removed from the sy=
stem.

It strikes me that "Customer System" and "IETF Slice" are somewhat similar,=
 the risk is that we talk about "customer" (even if we change it), and "sli=
ce" (even though if is really "IETF Slice)",

Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I think we ha=
ve a enough support to use "customer".

I rest my case.

/Loa


On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the
> document)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Customer:=C2=A0 A customer is the requester of an IETF Netwo=
rk Slice.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.=C2=
=A0 A customer may manage
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the IETF Network Slice service directly by int=
erfacing with the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator=
.
>
> We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise
> network or a network operator, an individual working at such an
> entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an
> application or software component."
>
> Cheers,
> Adrian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>;teas@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with
> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
>
> Hi all,
>
>> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>
> I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic
> enough to denote a role/entity.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Cheers,
> Med
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel
>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C3=80 : 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi=
.nu>;
>> teas@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with
>> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices
>>
>> Hi Loa,
>>
>>> On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent =
(we
>> only need to
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 use one term). I selected "Customer" becaus=
e that seemed
>> best, but I
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 know some people prefer "consumer". Please =
discuss if you
>> are not
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 happy.
>>>
>>> If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.
>>
>> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
>>
>>> I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
>>
>> It's never too late to bring things up.
>>
>>> But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
>>> indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
>> walks
>>> inte to your
>>> shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
>> your shop).
>>
>> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
>> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
>> school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as
>> the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
>> cook, signed by the bursar.
>>
>>> IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but
>> we
>>> don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
>>>
>>> I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
>>
>> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
>> instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may
>> become tiresome to read.
>>
>> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Adrian
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Teas mailing list
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--

Loa Andersson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS Expert=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 loa.pi.nu@gmail.com
Bronze Dragon Consulting=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 phone: +4=
6 739 81 21 64

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 _______________________________________________
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 =20
------=_Part_1252603_951777460.1620319117285
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydp1e08c53dyahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px=
;"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Thanks John,</div><div dir=
=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"fa=
lse">But wouldn't the client want to constrain the connectivity for a given=
 link in the specified SFC, say, to be more stringent than end-to-end (perh=
aps by a separate set of SLOs)?</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Also, could the client ha=
ve a say on location of SFs? For example, can it instruct to avoid a countr=
y or DC?</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Igor</div><div><br></div>
       =20
        </div><div id=3D"yahoo_quoted_0889437462" class=3D"yahoo_quoted">
            <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
               =20
                <div>
                    On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 11:48:22 AM EDT, John E Drake=
 &lt;jdrake=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org&gt; wrote:
                </div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><div id=3D"yiv6988404160"><style>#yiv6988404160 #yiv69=
88404160 --
=20
 _filtered {}
 _filtered {}
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#yiv6988404160 =20
#yiv6988404160 p.yiv6988404160MsoNormal, #yiv6988404160 li.yiv6988404160Mso=
Normal, #yiv6988404160 div.yiv6988404160MsoNormal
=09{margin:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}
#yiv6988404160 a:link, #yiv6988404160 span.yiv6988404160MsoHyperlink
=09{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}
#yiv6988404160 span.yiv6988404160EmailStyle18
=09{font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;}
#yiv6988404160 p.yiv6988404160msipfooter30b3d538, #yiv6988404160 li.yiv6988=
404160msipfooter30b3d538, #yiv6988404160 div.yiv6988404160msipfooter30b3d53=
8
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f;}
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#yiv6988404160 </style><div>
<div class=3D"yiv6988404160WordSection1">
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal">Igor,</p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal">Given the IETF Network Slice Service de=
finition that Eric and I proposed, I think we could add an SFC definition t=
o the SLO definition for each sender to a given connectivity construct.&nbs=
p; It would indicate that a packet from that sender
 to each receiver would pass through the specified SFC before being receive=
d.&nbsp; This is consistent with &nbsp;what is described in:&nbsp;
<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" hr=
ef=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-nsh-bgp-control=
-plane-18">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-nsh-bgp-control-plane=
-18</a>.</p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</p>=20
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal">Yours Irrespectively,</p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal">John</p>=20
</div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</p>=20
<p align=3D"center" class=3D"yiv6988404160msipfooter30b3d538" style=3D"marg=
in:0in;text-align:center;">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black;">Juniper Business Use Only</spa=
n></p>=20
<div class=3D"yiv6988404160yqt4243775127" id=3D"yiv6988404160yqt43370"><div=
 style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0p=
t;">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in;">
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Teas &lt;teas-bounces@ietf=
.org&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>
Igor Bryskin<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 6, 2021 10:26 AM<br clear=3D"none">
<b>To:</b> Loa Andersson &lt;loa@pi.nu&gt;; adrian@olddog.co.uk; mohamed.bo=
ucadair@orange.com; teas@ietf.org; Oscar Gonz=C3=A1lez de Dios &lt;oscar.go=
nzalezdedios@telefonica.com&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network=
-slices</p>=20
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:12.0pt;background:=
#FFEB9C;"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:b=
lack;">[External Email. Be cautious of content]</span></b></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</p>=20
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;">Hi Adrian,</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;">I probably missed the discussion, but how do we reconcile=
&nbsp; two IETF stories - network slicing and SFCs? Surely, at some point a=
 network slice client will ask the provider
 not just only to deliver its traffic from A to B with delay no worse than =
D, but also to do something else with the data (e.g. DPI). On the other han=
d, when we talk about SFCs we cannot assume I think any longer the context =
of a physical (not sliced) network.
 I do not suppose we can simply mandate the SF placement at network slice e=
nd points or somewhere outside network slices - this approach would probabl=
y not scale well.&nbsp;</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;">So, the question is how SFs relate to network slices, in =
particular, to their SLAs, SLOs and topologies?</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;">Thanks,</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;">Igor</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"yiv6988404160yahoo_quoted_0787303809">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 07:53:32 AM EDT, =
Oscar Gonz=C3=A1lez de Dios &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" sha=
pe=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com" target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com">oscar.gonza=
lezdedios@telefonica.com</a>&gt;
 wrote: </span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">Hi Adrian,<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I think what is really relevant is to have a cl=
ear definition on the chosen term to avoid misunderstandings. Unfortunately=
 today customer/consumer/client are used also in other contexts that might =
bring extra implications.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Said that, I am fine with the term custo=
mer. There are still a couple of places in the document where the term "ser=
vice customer" is used. Please change those to "IETF Network Slice customer=
" to be coherent.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; One argument in favor of the term customer is t=
hat the "IETF Network slice customer" makes use of the slice to fulfill its=
 needs (can be carry the traffic from a to b with a set of SLOs) and manage=
 the granted slice (that is, it can rearrange the resources
 it is allowed to).&nbsp; The term consumer misses the management part, whi=
ch is a key differentiator of a slice.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In the definition of customer, Can we just say:=
 " A customer may manage the granted IETF Network Slice.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Also, I'd like to clarify between the managemen=
t of the IETF Network slice that the customer can do and the management the=
 provider can do. The customer can "play" within the allocated resources, b=
ut may have some limitations. One question, the ability
 to manage the slice, is part of an SLO? Or should be defined separately wi=
th a different term? It would be interesting to have the possibility to ind=
icate what the slice customer can manage and what not...<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I support moving earlier in the document the de=
finition of the IETF Network Slice Customer and, also, add a definition for=
 the IETF Network Slice Provider (although only "provider" is used thought =
the text).<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Best Regards,<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Oscar<br clear=3D"n=
one">
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
-----Mensaje original-----<br clear=3D"none">
De: Teas &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:teas-bou=
nces@ietf.org">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; En nombre de Loa Andersson<br =
clear=3D"none">
Enviado el: jueves, 6 de mayo de 2021 9:31<br clear=3D"none">
Para: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mai=
lto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.=
uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>; <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=
=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">
mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>; <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" s=
hape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"ma=
ilto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a><br clear=3D"none">
Asunto: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices<=
br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Adrian,<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
That is acceptable.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions sec=
tion. I don't know if we can we place something in Section "2.&nbsp; Terms =
and Abbreviations", but there seems to be only abbreviations.<br clear=3D"n=
one">
<br clear=3D"none">
Your wholesale example:<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that buys f=
ood at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school the cust=
omer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the customer? The co=
ntract is with the school, negotiated
 by the cook, signed by the bursar.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
I think "the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The cook=
 and the school kids could be viewed as consumers", one removed from the sy=
stem.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
It strikes me that "Customer System" and "IETF Slice" are somewhat similar,=
 the risk is that we talk about "customer" (even if we change it), and "sli=
ce" (even though if is really "IETF Slice)",<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I think we ha=
ve a enough support to use "customer".<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
I rest my case.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
/Loa<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the<br c=
lear=3D"none">
&gt; document)<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Customer:&nbsp; A customer is the requester of an IETF Ne=
twork Slice.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.&n=
bsp; A customer may manage<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the IETF Network Slice service directly by =
interfacing with the<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestra=
tor.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise<br cle=
ar=3D"none">
&gt; network or a network operator, an individual working at such an<br cle=
ar=3D"none">
&gt; entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an<br clear=
=3D"none">
&gt; application or software component."<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; Cheers,<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; Adrian<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; From: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:m=
ohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a> &lt;<a rel=3D=
"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:mohamed.bou=
cadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orang=
e.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; To: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"=
mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.=
co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>; 'Loa Andersson' &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noop=
ener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_bla=
nk" href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;;
<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:te=
as@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org<=
/a><br clear=3D"none">
&gt; Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; Hi all,<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic<=
br clear=3D"none">
&gt; enough to denote a role/entity.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; Thanks.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; Cheers,<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; Med<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; -----Message d'origine-----<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; De : Teas [mailto:<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D=
"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"m=
ailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Adria=
n Farrel<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C3=80 : 'Loa Andersson' &=
lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto=
:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;;<=
br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"=
mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@=
ietf.org</a> Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; Hi Loa,<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this=
 consistent (we<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; only need to<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; use one term). I selected "Cust=
omer" because that seemed<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; best, but I<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; know some people prefer "consum=
er". Please discuss if you<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; are not<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; happy.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer custo=
mer.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; OK. So I made an improvement, but...<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.<br clear=3D"n=
one">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; It's never too late to bring things up.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong<b=
r clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; indication that that that a customer is a person (a person tha=
t<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; walks<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; inte to your<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought a=
t<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; your shop).<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school th=
at<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the<=
br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food=
 as<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the<b=
r clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; cook, signed by the bursar.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, =
but<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; we<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; don't specify normative rules for human behavior.<br clear=3D"=
none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?<br clear=3D=
"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73<br c=
lear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may=
<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; become tiresome to read.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; Adrian<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
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<br clear=3D"none">
--<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Loa Andersson&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; email: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=
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Senior MPLS Expert&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
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loa.pi.nu@gmail.com</a><br clear=3D"none">
Bronze Dragon Consulting&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; phone: +4=
6 739 81 21 64<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
_______________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Oscar_Gonz=E1lez_de_Dios?= <oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 16:56:05 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/RvLg4w-UjxmQrdHLdyyZtn1r7qc>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Hi,

Comments inline.  In general, much like VPNs, the customer doesn't have vis=
ibility into the provider's network.

Yours Irrespectively,

John



Juniper Business Use Only
From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin=3D40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 12:39 PM
To: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>; Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>; adrian@o=
lddog.co.uk; mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; teas@ietf.org; Oscar Gonz=E1lez =
de Dios <oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>; John E Drake <jdrake@juniper=
.net>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

Thanks John,

But wouldn't the client want to constrain the connectivity for a given link=
 in the specified SFC, say, to be more stringent than end-to-end (perhaps b=
y a separate set of SLOs)?

[JD]  I have no idea.  One of the reasons why we haven't yet included SFCs =
is that we have no idea what are the requirements for it.

Also, could the client have a say on location of SFs? For example, can it i=
nstruct to avoid a country or DC?

[JD]  This is already handled with Service Level Expectations (SLEs), which=
 have been added to the framework draft.

Igor

On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 11:48:22 AM EDT, John E Drake <jdrake=3D40juniper=
.net@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:jdrake=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:



Igor,



Given the IETF Network Slice Service definition that Eric and I proposed, I=
 think we could add an SFC definition to the SLO definition for each sender=
 to a given connectivity construct.  It would indicate that a packet from t=
hat sender to each receiver would pass through the specified SFC before bei=
ng received.  This is consistent with  what is described in:  https://datat=
racker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-nsh-bgp-control-plane-18<https://u=
rldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-nsh=
-bgp-control-plane-18__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!UiAW41P7JKVUF0vjIvj-fdWXz4tdgy1TQsJvF=
gOakNad0SkwwCcGftg70olRfow$>.



Yours Irrespectively,



John





Juniper Business Use Only

From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf =
Of Igor Bryskin
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 10:26 AM
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu<mailto:loa@pi.nu>>; adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto=
:adrian@olddog.co.uk>; mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadai=
r@orange.com>; teas@ietf.org<mailto:teas@ietf.org>; Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dio=
s <oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com<mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefoni=
ca.com>>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices



[External Email. Be cautious of content]



Hi Adrian,



I probably missed the discussion, but how do we reconcile  two IETF stories=
 - network slicing and SFCs? Surely, at some point a network slice client w=
ill ask the provider not just only to deliver its traffic from A to B with =
delay no worse than D, but also to do something else with the data (e.g. DP=
I). On the other hand, when we talk about SFCs we cannot assume I think any=
 longer the context of a physical (not sliced) network. I do not suppose we=
 can simply mandate the SF placement at network slice end points or somewhe=
re outside network slices - this approach would probably not scale well.



So, the question is how SFs relate to network slices, in particular, to the=
ir SLAs, SLOs and topologies?



Thanks,

Igor



On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 07:53:32 AM EDT, Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios <oscar.=
gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com<mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>> =
wrote:





Hi Adrian,

        I think what is really relevant is to have a clear definition on th=
e chosen term to avoid misunderstandings. Unfortunately today customer/cons=
umer/client are used also in other contexts that might bring extra implicat=
ions.

          Said that, I am fine with the term customer. There are still a co=
uple of places in the document where the term "service customer" is used. P=
lease change those to "IETF Network Slice customer" to be coherent.

        One argument in favor of the term customer is that the "IETF Networ=
k slice customer" makes use of the slice to fulfill its needs (can be carry=
 the traffic from a to b with a set of SLOs) and manage the granted slice (=
that is, it can rearrange the resources it is allowed to).  The term consum=
er misses the management part, which is a key differentiator of a slice.

        In the definition of customer, Can we just say: " A customer may ma=
nage the granted IETF Network Slice.

        Also, I'd like to clarify between the management of the IETF Networ=
k slice that the customer can do and the management the provider can do. Th=
e customer can "play" within the allocated resources, but may have some lim=
itations. One question, the ability to manage the slice, is part of an SLO?=
 Or should be defined separately with a different term? It would be interes=
ting to have the possibility to indicate what the slice customer can manage=
 and what not...

        I support moving earlier in the document the definition of the IETF=
 Network Slice Customer and, also, add a definition for the IETF Network Sl=
ice Provider (although only "provider" is used thought the text).

        Best Regards,

                Oscar


-----Mensaje original-----
De: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>> En nombre de=
 Loa Andersson
Enviado el: jueves, 6 de mayo de 2021 9:31
Para: adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>; mohamed.boucadair@or=
ange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>; teas@ietf.org<mailto:teas@ie=
tf.org>
Asunto: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices

Adrian,

That is acceptable.

As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions sec=
tion. I don't know if we can we place something in Section "2.  Terms and A=
bbreviations", but there seems to be only abbreviations.

Your wholesale example:

I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that buys f=
ood at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school the cust=
omer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the customer? The co=
ntract is with the school, negotiated by the cook, signed by the bursar.

I think "the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The cook=
 and the school kids could be viewed as consumers", one removed from the sy=
stem.

It strikes me that "Customer System" and "IETF Slice" are somewhat similar,=
 the risk is that we talk about "customer" (even if we change it), and "sli=
ce" (even though if is really "IETF Slice)",

Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I think we ha=
ve a enough support to use "customer".

I rest my case.

/Loa


On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the
> document)
>
>    Customer:  A customer is the requester of an IETF Network Slice.
>        Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.  A customer may manage
>        the IETF Network Slice service directly by interfacing with the
>        IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator.
>
> We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise
> network or a network operator, an individual working at such an
> entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an
> application or software component."
>
> Cheers,
> Adrian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> <=
mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>>
> Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>; 'Loa Andersson' <loa=
@pi.nu<mailto:loa@pi.nu>>; teas@ietf.org<mailto:teas@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with
> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
>
> Hi all,
>
>> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>
> I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic
> enough to denote a role/entity.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Cheers,
> Med
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>] D=
e la part de Adrian Farrel
>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C0 : 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu<ma=
ilto:loa@pi.nu>>;
>> teas@ietf.org<mailto:teas@ietf.org> Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward wi=
th
>> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices
>>
>> Hi Loa,
>>
>>> On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
>>>
>>>>    c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we
>> only need to
>>>>        use one term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed
>> best, but I
>>>>        know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you
>> are not
>>>>        happy.
>>>
>>> If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.
>>
>> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
>>
>>> I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
>>
>> It's never too late to bring things up.
>>
>>> But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
>>> indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
>> walks
>>> inte to your
>>> shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
>> your shop).
>>
>> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
>> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
>> school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as
>> the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
>> cook, signed by the bursar.
>>
>>> IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but
>> we
>>> don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
>>>
>>> I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
>>
>> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
>> instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may
>> become tiresome to read.
>>
>> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Adrian
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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--

Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu<mailto:loa@pi.nu>
Senior MPLS Expert                          loa.pi.nu@gmail.com<mailto:loa.=
pi.nu@gmail.com>
Bronze Dragon Consulting            phone: +46 739 81 21 64

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Comments inline.&nbsp; In general, much like VPNs, t=
he customer doesn&#8217;t have visibility into the provider&#8217;s network=
.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Yours Irrespectively,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">John<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;text-a=
lign:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Igor Bryskin &lt;i_bryskin=3D40yahoo.co=
m@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 6, 2021 12:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Igor Bryskin &lt;i_bryskin@yahoo.com&gt;; Loa Andersson &lt;loa@=
pi.nu&gt;; adrian@olddog.co.uk; mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; teas@ietf.org=
; Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios &lt;oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com&gt;; Joh=
n E Drake &lt;jdrake@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network=
-slices<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:12.0pt;background:#FFEB9C"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Lato&quot;,sans-serif;colo=
r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Thanks John,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif">But wouldn't the client want to constrain the con=
nectivity for a given link in the specified SFC, say, to be more stringent =
than end-to-end (perhaps by a separate set of
 SLOs)?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>[JD]&nbsp; I have no idea.&nbsp; One of the re=
asons why we haven&#8217;t yet included SFCs is that we have no idea what a=
re the requirements for it.</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Also, could the client have a say on location of =
SFs? For example, can it instruct to avoid a country or DC?<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>[JD]&nbsp; This is already handled with Servic=
e Level Expectations (SLEs), which have been added to the framework draft.
</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Igor<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"yahoo_quoted_0889437462">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 11:48:22 =
AM EDT, John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.iet=
f.org">jdrake=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div id=3D"yiv6988404160">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">Igor,<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">Given the IETF Network=
 Slice Service definition that Eric and I proposed, I think we could add an=
 SFC definition to the SLO definition for each
 sender to a given connectivity construct.&nbsp; It would indicate that a p=
acket from that sender to each receiver would pass through the specified SF=
C before being received.&nbsp; This is consistent with &nbsp;what is descri=
bed in:&nbsp;
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html=
/draft-ietf-bess-nsh-bgp-control-plane-18__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!UiAW41P7JKVUF0vjI=
vj-fdWXz4tdgy1TQsJvFgOakNad0SkwwCcGftg70olRfow$" target=3D"_blank">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-nsh-bgp-control-plane=
-18</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">Yours Irrespectively,<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">John<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"marg=
in:0in;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
;color:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<div id=3D"yiv6988404160yqt43370">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">From:</span></b><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:#26282A"> Teas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org">teas-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Igor Bryskin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 6, 2021 10:26 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Loa Andersson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;=
; <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">
adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mo=
hamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a>; Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dio=
s &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com">oscar.gonzalez=
dedios@telefonica.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network=
-slices<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"line-height:12.0pt;background:=
#FFEB9C"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]</span></b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
;color:#26282A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">Hi Adrian,</span><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#=
26282A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26=
282A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">I probably missed the disc=
ussion, but how do we reconcile&nbsp; two IETF stories - network slicing an=
d SFCs? Surely, at some point a network slice client
 will ask the provider not just only to deliver its traffic from A to B wit=
h delay no worse than D, but also to do something else with the data (e.g. =
DPI). On the other hand, when we talk about SFCs we cannot assume I think a=
ny longer the context of a physical
 (not sliced) network. I do not suppose we can simply mandate the SF placem=
ent at network slice end points or somewhere outside network slices - this =
approach would probably not scale well.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26=
282A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">So, the question is how SF=
s relate to network slices, in particular, to their SLAs, SLOs and topologi=
es?</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26=
282A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">Thanks,</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26=
282A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">Igor</span><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26=
282A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"yiv6988404160yahoo_quoted_0787303809">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">On Thursday, May 6, 2021, =
07:53:32 AM EDT, Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:oscar.gonza=
lezdedios@telefonica.com" target=3D"_blank">oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica=
.com</a>&gt;
 wrote: </span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&=
quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26=
282A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26=
282A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A">Hi Adrian,<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I think what is really relevant is to have a cl=
ear definition on the chosen term to avoid misunderstandings. Unfortunately=
 today customer/consumer/client are used also in other contexts that might =
bring extra implications.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Said that, I am fine with the term custo=
mer. There are still a couple of places in the document where the term &quo=
t;service customer&quot; is used. Please change those to &quot;IETF Network=
 Slice customer&quot; to be coherent.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; One argument in favor of the term customer is t=
hat the &quot;IETF Network slice customer&quot; makes use of the slice to f=
ulfill its needs (can be carry the traffic from a to b with a set of SLOs) =
and manage the granted slice (that is, it can rearrange the resources
 it is allowed to).&nbsp; The term consumer misses the management part, whi=
ch is a key differentiator of a slice.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In the definition of customer, Can we just say:=
 &quot; A customer may manage the granted IETF Network Slice.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Also, I'd like to clarify between the managemen=
t of the IETF Network slice that the customer can do and the management the=
 provider can do. The customer can &quot;play&quot; within the allocated re=
sources, but may have some limitations. One question, the ability
 to manage the slice, is part of an SLO? Or should be defined separately wi=
th a different term? It would be interesting to have the possibility to ind=
icate what the slice customer can manage and what not...<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I support moving earlier in the document the de=
finition of the IETF Network Slice Customer and, also, add a definition for=
 the IETF Network Slice Provider (although only &quot;provider&quot; is use=
d thought the text).<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Best Regards,<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Oscar<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Mensaje original-----<br>
De: Teas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">tea=
s-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; En nombre de Loa Andersson<br>
Enviado el: jueves, 6 de mayo de 2021 9:31<br>
Para: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddo=
g.co.uk</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.b=
oucadair@orange.com</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</a><br>
Asunto: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices<=
br>
<br>
Adrian,<br>
<br>
That is acceptable.<br>
<br>
As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions sec=
tion. I don't know if we can we place something in Section &quot;2.&nbsp; T=
erms and Abbreviations&quot;, but there seems to be only abbreviations.<br>
<br>
Your wholesale example:<br>
<br>
I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that buys f=
ood at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school the cust=
omer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the customer? The co=
ntract is with the school, negotiated
 by the cook, signed by the bursar.<br>
<br>
I think &quot;the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The=
 cook and the school kids could be viewed as consumers&quot;, one removed f=
rom the system.<br>
<br>
It strikes me that &quot;Customer System&quot; and &quot;IETF Slice&quot; a=
re somewhat similar, the risk is that we talk about &quot;customer&quot; (e=
ven if we change it), and &quot;slice&quot; (even though if is really &quot=
;IETF Slice)&quot;,<br>
<br>
Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I think we ha=
ve a enough support to use &quot;customer&quot;.<br>
<br>
I rest my case.<br>
<br>
/Loa<br>
<br>
<br>
On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:<br>
&gt; We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the<br>
&gt; document)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Customer:&nbsp; A customer is the requester of an IETF Ne=
twork Slice.<br>
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.&n=
bsp; A customer may manage<br>
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the IETF Network Slice service directly by =
interfacing with the<br>
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestra=
tor.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; We could add &quot;A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise<b=
r>
&gt; network or a network operator, an individual working at such an<br>
&gt; entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an<br>
&gt; application or software component.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; Adrian<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank=
">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@=
orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@ol=
ddog.co.uk</a>; 'Loa Andersson' &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"=
_blank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I would simply use &quot;customer&quot; and make sure the definition i=
s generic<br>
&gt; enough to denote a role/entity.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; Med<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -----Message d'origine-----<br>
&gt;&gt; De : Teas [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Adrian Farrel<br>
&gt;&gt; Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C0 : 'Loa Andersson' &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</=
a> Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with<br>
&gt;&gt; draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Loa,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; c. &quot;Consumer&quot; vs &quot;customer&quo=
t;. I have made this consistent (we<br>
&gt;&gt; only need to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; use one term). I selected &quot=
;Customer&quot; because that seemed<br>
&gt;&gt; best, but I<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; know some people prefer &quot;c=
onsumer&quot;. Please discuss if you<br>
&gt;&gt; are not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; happy.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer custo=
mer.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; OK. So I made an improvement, but...<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; It's never too late to bring things up.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; indication that that that a customer is a person (a person tha=
t<br>
&gt;&gt; walks<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; inte to your<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought a=
t<br>
&gt;&gt; your shop).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school th=
at<br>
&gt;&gt; buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the<=
br>
&gt;&gt; school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food=
 as<br>
&gt;&gt; the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; cook, signed by the bursar.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; IETF specifies &quot;systems&quot;, including what goes into S=
W and HW, but<br>
&gt;&gt; we<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; don't specify normative rules for human behavior.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73<br>
&gt;&gt; instances of &quot;customer&quot; in the document, and &quot;custo=
mer system&quot; may<br>
&gt;&gt; become tiresome to read.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt; Adrian<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
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--<br>
<br>
Loa Andersson&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; email: <a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank"=
>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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As far as I can tell, the client should not be trying to control the 
details of which instance is used to fill the service function 
requirements.  i Constraints like "stay out of a certain country", or 
"stay within a given country" would be expressed in terms of the 
properties the slice is to meet (service level expectations).  Not by 
controlling particular aspects of the service.

Yours,
Joel

On 5/6/2021 12:38 PM, Igor Bryskin wrote:
> Thanks John,
> 
> But wouldn't the client want to constrain the connectivity for a given 
> link in the specified SFC, say, to be more stringent than end-to-end 
> (perhaps by a separate set of SLOs)?
> 
> Also, could the client have a say on location of SFs? For example, can 
> it instruct to avoid a country or DC?
> 
> Igor
> 
> On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 11:48:22 AM EDT, John E Drake 
> <jdrake=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Igor,
> 
> Given the IETF Network Slice Service definition that Eric and I 
> proposed, I think we could add an SFC definition to the SLO definition 
> for each sender to a given connectivity construct.Â  It would indicate 
> that a packet from that sender to each receiver would pass through the 
> specified SFC before being received.Â  This is consistent with Â what is 
> described in: 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-nsh-bgp-control-plane-18 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-nsh-bgp-control-plane-18>.
> 
> Yours Irrespectively,
> 
> John
> 
> Juniper Business Use Only
> 
> *From:* Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of * Igor Bryskin
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 6, 2021 10:26 AM
> *To:* Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>; adrian@olddog.co.uk; 
> mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; teas@ietf.org; Oscar GonzÃ¡lez de Dios 
> <oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Teas] Moving forward with 
> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
> 
> *[External Email. Be cautious of content]*
> 
> Hi Adrian,
> 
> I probably missed the discussion, but how do we reconcileÂ  two IETF 
> stories - network slicing and SFCs? Surely, at some point a network 
> slice client will ask the provider not just only to deliver its traffic 
> from A to B with delay no worse than D, but also to do something else 
> with the data (e.g. DPI). On the other hand, when we talk about SFCs we 
> cannot assume I think any longer the context of a physical (not sliced) 
> network. I do not suppose we can simply mandate the SF placement at 
> network slice end points or somewhere outside network slices - this 
> approach would probably not scale well.
> 
> So, the question is how SFs relate to network slices, in particular, to 
> their SLAs, SLOs and topologies?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Igor
> 
> On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 07:53:32 AM EDT, Oscar GonzÃ¡lez de Dios 
> <oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com 
> <mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>> wrote:
> 
> Hi Adrian,
> 
>  Â  Â  Â  Â  I think what is really relevant is to have a clear definition 
> on the chosen term to avoid misunderstandings. Unfortunately today 
> customer/consumer/client are used also in other contexts that might 
> bring extra implications.
> 
>  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Said that, I am fine with the term customer. There are still 
> a couple of places in the document where the term "service customer" is 
> used. Please change those to "IETF Network Slice customer" to be coherent.
> 
>  Â  Â  Â  Â  One argument in favor of the term customer is that the "IETF 
> Network slice customer" makes use of the slice to fulfill its needs (can 
> be carry the traffic from a to b with a set of SLOs) and manage the 
> granted slice (that is, it can rearrange the resources it is allowed 
> to).Â  The term consumer misses the management part, which is a key 
> differentiator of a slice.
> 
>  Â  Â  Â  Â  In the definition of customer, Can we just say: " A customer 
> may manage the granted IETF Network Slice.
> 
>  Â  Â  Â  Â  Also, I'd like to clarify between the management of the IETF 
> Network slice that the customer can do and the management the provider 
> can do. The customer can "play" within the allocated resources, but may 
> have some limitations. One question, the ability to manage the slice, is 
> part of an SLO? Or should be defined separately with a different term? 
> It would be interesting to have the possibility to indicate what the 
> slice customer can manage and what not...
> 
>  Â  Â  Â  Â  I support moving earlier in the document the definition of the 
> IETF Network Slice Customer and, also, add a definition for the IETF 
> Network Slice Provider (although only "provider" is used thought the text).
> 
>  Â  Â  Â  Â  Best Regards,
> 
>  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Oscar
> 
> 
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>> En 
> nombre de Loa Andersson
> Enviado el: jueves, 6 de mayo de 2021 9:31
> Para: adrian@olddog.co.uk <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>; 
> mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>; 
> teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>
> Asunto: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
> 
> Adrian,
> 
> That is acceptable.
> 
> As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions 
> section. I don't know if we can we place something in Section "2.Â  Terms 
> and Abbreviations", but there seems to be only abbreviations.
> 
> Your wholesale example:
> 
> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that 
> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school 
> the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the 
> customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the cook, 
> signed by the bursar.
> 
> I think "the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The 
> cook and the school kids could be viewed as consumers", one removed from 
> the system.
> 
> It strikes me that "Customer System" and "IETF Slice" are somewhat 
> similar, the risk is that we talk about "customer" (even if we change 
> it), and "slice" (even though if is really "IETF Slice)",
> 
> Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I think we 
> have a enough support to use "customer".
> 
> I rest my case.
> 
> /Loa
> 
> 
> On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:
>> We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the
>> document)
>>
>>Â  Â  Customer:Â  A customer is the requester of an IETF Network Slice.
>>Â  Â  Â  Â  Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.Â  A customer may manage
>>Â  Â  Â  Â  the IETF Network Slice service directly by interfacing with the
>>Â  Â  Â  Â  IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator.
>>
>> We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise
>> network or a network operator, an individual working at such an
>> entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an
>> application or software component."
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Adrian
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> 
> <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>>
>> Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
>> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>; 'Loa Andersson' 
> <loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu>>; teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>
>> Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with
>> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>>
>> I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic
>> enough to denote a role/entity.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Med
>>
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>] De la part de 
> Adrian Farrel
>>> EnvoyÃ© : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 Ã€ : 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu>>;
>>> teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org> Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with
>>> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices
>>>
>>> Hi Loa,
>>>
>>>> On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
>>>>
>>>>>Â  Â  c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we
>>> only need to
>>>>>Â  Â  Â  Â  use one term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed
>>> best, but I
>>>>>Â  Â  Â  Â  know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you
>>> are not
>>>>>Â  Â  Â  Â  happy.
>>>>
>>>> If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.
>>>
>>> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
>>>
>>>> I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
>>>
>>> It's never too late to bring things up.
>>>
>>>> But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
>>>> indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
>>> walks
>>>> inte to your
>>>> shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
>>> your shop).
>>>
>>> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
>>> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
>>> school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as
>>> the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
>>> cook, signed by the bursar.
>>>
>>>> IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but
>>> we
>>>> don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
>>>
>>> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
>>> instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may
>>> become tiresome to read.
>>>
>>> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Adrian
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Teas mailing list
>>> Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas 
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> 
> --
> 
> Loa AnderssonÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  email: loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu>
> Senior MPLS Expert loa.pi.nu@gmail.com <mailto:loa.pi.nu@gmail.com>
> Bronze Dragon ConsultingÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  phone: +46 739 81 21 64
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From: Shunsuke Homma <shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 11:53:08 +0900
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Hi,

Firstly, I also follow the WG consensus, and I=E2=80=99m ok to use =E2=80=
=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D if WG
prefers it.

I assume there are mainly two types of use cases on (IETF) network slices:
1. Providing slices to externals(customers) as a network service
2. Operating some internal network resources with the same slice system
with case1

As far as I read other comments on the terms, most of people seem to
focuses on use cases where IETF network slices are provided as a type of
network services (i.g., case1), and I=E2=80=99d like to confirm if case2 is=
 also in
our scope and =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D can cover both cases. (I personall=
y want to avoid
using different terms depending on assumed use cases).


Btw, I agree with that slice management would be important, and we=E2=80=99=
ll need
to clarify what =E2=80=9Ccustomers=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cproviders=E2=80=9D=
 can do on slice managements. In
my memory, the NS-DT=E2=80=99s study was started with an assumption that re=
sources
should be abstracted from several reasons, such as usability, scalability,
security, etc. In this assumption, in my understanding, who controls
network resources will be always slice provider (i.e., the owner of NSC).
In other words, customers never manage resources structuring a slice
directly, and a customer will send a service request to a slice
provider/NSC when he/she wants to create/change/delete a slice. (I think
this is fit to operation models considered in other SDOs such as TMF.)


What can be done via service request will depend on design of slice
service, and the current definition part provides just minimal sets of
selectable parameters as SLOs. More details are provided in NBI drafts.


Regards,


Shunsuke

2021=E5=B9=B45=E6=9C=886=E6=97=A5(=E6=9C=A8) 20:53 Oscar Gonz=C3=A1lez de D=
ios <
oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>:

> Hi Adrian,
>
>         I think what is really relevant is to have a clear definition on
> the chosen term to avoid misunderstandings. Unfortunately today
> customer/consumer/client are used also in other contexts that might bring
> extra implications.
>
>           Said that, I am fine with the term customer. There are still a
> couple of places in the document where the term "service customer" is use=
d.
> Please change those to "IETF Network Slice customer" to be coherent.
>
>         One argument in favor of the term customer is that the "IETF
> Network slice customer" makes use of the slice to fulfill its needs (can =
be
> carry the traffic from a to b with a set of SLOs) and manage the granted
> slice (that is, it can rearrange the resources it is allowed to).  The te=
rm
> consumer misses the management part, which is a key differentiator of a
> slice.
>
>         In the definition of customer, Can we just say: " A customer may
> manage the granted IETF Network Slice.
>
>         Also, I'd like to clarify between the management of the IETF
> Network slice that the customer can do and the management the provider ca=
n
> do. The customer can "play" within the allocated resources, but may have
> some limitations. One question, the ability to manage the slice, is part =
of
> an SLO? Or should be defined separately with a different term? It would b=
e
> interesting to have the possibility to indicate what the slice customer c=
an
> manage and what not...
>
>         I support moving earlier in the document the definition of the
> IETF Network Slice Customer and, also, add a definition for the IETF
> Network Slice Provider (although only "provider" is used thought the text=
).
>
>         Best Regards,
>
>                 Oscar
>
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> En nombre de Loa Andersson
> Enviado el: jueves, 6 de mayo de 2021 9:31
> Para: adrian@olddog.co.uk; mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; teas@ietf.org
> Asunto: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice=
s
>
> Adrian,
>
> That is acceptable.
>
> As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions
> section. I don't know if we can we place something in Section "2.  Terms
> and Abbreviations", but there seems to be only abbreviations.
>
> Your wholesale example:
>
> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that buys
> food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school the
> customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the customer?
> The contract is with the school, negotiated by the cook, signed by the
> bursar.
>
> I think "the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The
> cook and the school kids could be viewed as consumers", one removed from
> the system.
>
> It strikes me that "Customer System" and "IETF Slice" are somewhat
> similar, the risk is that we talk about "customer" (even if we change it)=
,
> and "slice" (even though if is really "IETF Slice)",
>
> Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I think we
> have a enough support to use "customer".
>
> I rest my case.
>
> /Loa
>
>
> On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> > We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the
> > document)
> >
> >     Customer:  A customer is the requester of an IETF Network Slice.
> >        Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.  A customer may manage
> >        the IETF Network Slice service directly by interfacing with the
> >        IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator.
> >
> > We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise
> > network or a network operator, an individual working at such an
> > entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an
> > application or software component."
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Adrian
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> > Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
> > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>; teas@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with
> > draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> >> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
> >
> > I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic
> > enough to denote a role/entity.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Med
> >
> >> -----Message d'origine-----
> >> De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel
> >> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C3=80 : 'Loa Andersson' <loa@=
pi.nu>;
> >> teas@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with
> >> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices
> >>
> >> Hi Loa,
> >>
> >>> On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
> >>>
> >>>>    c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we
> >> only need to
> >>>>         use one term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed
> >> best, but I
> >>>>         know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you
> >> are not
> >>>>         happy.
> >>>
> >>> If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.
> >>
> >> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
> >>
> >>> I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
> >>
> >> It's never too late to bring things up.
> >>
> >>> But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
> >>> indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
> >> walks
> >>> inte to your
> >>> shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
> >> your shop).
> >>
> >> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
> >> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
> >> school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as
> >> the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
> >> cook, signed by the bursar.
> >>
> >>> IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but
> >> we
> >>> don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
> >>>
> >>> I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
> >>
> >> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
> >> instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may
> >> become tiresome to read.
> >>
> >> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Adrian
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Teas mailing list
> >> Teas@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
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> --
>
> Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
> Senior MPLS Expert                          loa.pi.nu@gmail.com
> Bronze Dragon Consulting             phone: +46 739 81 21 64
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ra uso exclusivo
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tinat=C3=A1rio
> indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, utiliza=C3=A7=C3=A3o, divulga=
=C3=A7=C3=A3o e/ou
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--00000000000033978605c1b4d1dd
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div><div><div><div style=3D"border-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Hi,</div><div s=
tyle=3D"border-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div><div style=3D"border-color=
:rgb(255,255,255)">Firstly, I also follow the WG consensus, and I=E2=80=99m=
 ok to use =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D if WG prefers it.</div><div style=3D"=
border-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div><div style=3D"border-color:rgb(255=
,255,255)">I assume there are mainly two types of use cases on (IETF) netwo=
rk slices:</div><div style=3D"border-color:rgb(255,255,255)">1. Providing s=
lices to externals(customers) as a network service=C2=A0</div><div style=3D=
"border-color:rgb(255,255,255)">2. Operating some internal network resource=
s with the same slice system with case1</div><div style=3D"border-color:rgb=
(255,255,255)"><br></div><div style=3D"border-color:rgb(255,255,255)">As fa=
r as I read other comments on the terms, most of people seem to focuses on =
use cases where IETF network slices are provided as a type of network servi=
ces (i.g., case1), and I=E2=80=99d like to confirm if case2 is also in our =
scope and =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D can cover both cases. (I personally wa=
nt to avoid using different terms depending on assumed use cases).</div><di=
v style=3D"border-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div><div style=3D"border-co=
lor:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div><div style=3D"border-color:rgb(255,255,255)=
"><p class=3D"p1" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;li=
ne-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1">Btw, I agree with tha=
t slice management would be important, and we=E2=80=99ll need to clarify wh=
at =E2=80=9Ccustomers=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cproviders=E2=80=9D can do on sl=
ice managements. In my memory, the NS-DT=E2=80=99s study was started with a=
n assumption that resources should be abstracted from several reasons, such=
 as usability, scalability, security, etc. In this assumption, in my unders=
tanding, who controls network resources will be always slice provider (i.e.=
, the owner of NSC). In other words, customers never manage resources struc=
turing a slice directly, and a customer will send a service request to a sl=
ice provider/NSC when he/she wants to create/change/delete a slice. (I thin=
k this is fit to operation models considered in other SDOs such as TMF.)=C2=
=A0</span></p><p class=3D"p2" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-=
size:17px;line-height:normal;min-height:20.3px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span clas=
s=3D"s1"></span><br></p><p class=3D"p1" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:no=
rmal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1"=
>What can be done via service request will depend on design of slice servic=
e, and the current definition part provides just minimal sets of selectable=
 parameters as SLOs. More details are provided in NBI drafts.</span></p><p =
class=3D"p1" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-he=
ight:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1"><br></span></p><p class=3D=
"p1" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:nor=
mal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1">Regards,</span></p><p class=3D"p1"=
 style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;=
color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1"><br></span></p><p class=3D"p1" style=
=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;color:=
rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"s1">Shunsuke=C2=A0</span></p></div></div><div><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">2021=E5=
=B9=B45=E6=9C=886=E6=97=A5(=E6=9C=A8) 20:53 Oscar Gonz=C3=A1lez de Dios &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com" target=3D"_blank">o=
scar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com</a>&gt;:<br></div></div></div></div></di=
v><div><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-styl=
e:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">Hi Adrian,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think what is really relevant is to have a cl=
ear definition on the chosen term to avoid misunderstandings. Unfortunately=
 today customer/consumer/client are used also in other contexts that might =
bring extra implications.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Said that, I am fine with the term custo=
mer. There are still a couple of places in the document where the term &quo=
t;service customer&quot; is used. Please change those to &quot;IETF Network=
 Slice customer&quot; to be coherent.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 One argument in favor of the term customer is t=
hat the &quot;IETF Network slice customer&quot; makes use of the slice to f=
ulfill its needs (can be carry the traffic from a to b with a set of SLOs) =
and manage the granted slice (that is, it can rearrange the resources it is=
 allowed to).=C2=A0 The term consumer misses the management part, which is =
a key differentiator of a slice.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 In the definition of customer, Can we just say:=
 &quot; A customer may manage the granted IETF Network Slice.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Also, I&#39;d like to clarify between the manag=
ement of the IETF Network slice that the customer can do and the management=
 the provider can do. The customer can &quot;play&quot; within the allocate=
d resources, but may have some limitations. One question, the ability to ma=
nage the slice, is part of an SLO? Or should be defined separately with a d=
ifferent term? It would be interesting to have the possibility to indicate =
what the slice customer can manage and what not...<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I support moving earlier in the document the de=
finition of the IETF Network Slice Customer and, also, add a definition for=
 the IETF Network Slice Provider (although only &quot;provider&quot; is use=
d thought the text).<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Best Regards,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Oscar<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Mensaje original-----<br>
De: Teas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">tea=
s-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; En nombre de Loa Andersson<br>
Enviado el: jueves, 6 de mayo de 2021 9:31<br>
Para: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddo=
g.co.uk</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</a><br>
Asunto: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices<=
br>
<br>
Adrian,<br>
<br>
That is acceptable.<br>
<br>
As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions sec=
tion. I don&#39;t know if we can we place something in Section &quot;2.=C2=
=A0 Terms and Abbreviations&quot;, but there seems to be only abbreviations=
.<br>
<br>
Your wholesale example:<br>
<br>
I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that buys f=
ood at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school the cust=
omer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the customer? The co=
ntract is with the school, negotiated by the cook, signed by the bursar.<br=
>
<br>
I think &quot;the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The=
 cook and the school kids could be viewed as consumers&quot;, one removed f=
rom the system.<br>
<br>
It strikes me that &quot;Customer System&quot; and &quot;IETF Slice&quot; a=
re somewhat similar, the risk is that we talk about &quot;customer&quot; (e=
ven if we change it), and &quot;slice&quot; (even though if is really &quot=
;IETF Slice)&quot;,<br>
<br>
Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I think we ha=
ve a enough support to use &quot;customer&quot;.<br>
<br>
I rest my case.<br>
<br>
/Loa<br>
<br>
<br>
On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:<br>
&gt; We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the<br>
&gt; document)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Customer:=C2=A0 A customer is the requester of an I=
ETF Network Slice.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.=
=C2=A0 A customer may manage<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the IETF Network Slice service directly by =
interfacing with the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestra=
tor.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; We could add &quot;A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise<b=
r>
&gt; network or a network operator, an individual working at such an<br>
&gt; entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an<br>
&gt; application or software component.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; Adrian<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank=
">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@=
orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@ol=
ddog.co.uk</a>; &#39;Loa Andersson&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I would simply use &quot;customer&quot; and make sure the definition i=
s generic<br>
&gt; enough to denote a role/entity.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; Med<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -----Message d&#39;origine-----<br>
&gt;&gt; De : Teas [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Adrian Farrel<br>
&gt;&gt; Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C3=80 : &#39;Loa Andersso=
n&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;=
;<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</=
a> Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with<br>
&gt;&gt; draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Loa,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 c. &quot;Consumer&quot; vs &quot;customer&quo=
t;. I have made this consistent (we<br>
&gt;&gt; only need to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0use one term). I selected=
 &quot;Customer&quot; because that seemed<br>
&gt;&gt; best, but I<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0know some people prefer &=
quot;consumer&quot;. Please discuss if you<br>
&gt;&gt; are not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0happy.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer custo=
mer.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; OK. So I made an improvement, but...<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I don&#39;t know if it is too late to bring this up.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; It&#39;s never too late to bring things up.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; But I really don&#39;t like either, normal language has a stro=
ng<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; indication that that that a customer is a person (a person tha=
t<br>
&gt;&gt; walks<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; inte to your<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought a=
t<br>
&gt;&gt; your shop).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school th=
at<br>
&gt;&gt; buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the<=
br>
&gt;&gt; school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food=
 as<br>
&gt;&gt; the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; cook, signed by the bursar.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; IETF specifies &quot;systems&quot;, including what goes into S=
W and HW, but<br>
&gt;&gt; we<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; don&#39;t specify normative rules for human behavior.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I don&#39;t know if we can talk about Customer System?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I&#39;m afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73<=
br>
&gt;&gt; instances of &quot;customer&quot; in the document, and &quot;custo=
mer system&quot; may<br>
&gt;&gt; become tiresome to read.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt; Adrian<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; Teas mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.org</=
a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ______________________________________________________________________=
<br>
&gt; ______ _____________________________________________<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations<br>
&gt; confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses,<=
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&gt; par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ain=
si<br>
&gt; que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles<=
br>
&gt; d&#39;alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
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&gt; altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This message and its attachments may contain confidential or<br>
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&gt; Teas mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.org</a><b=
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er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
Loa Andersson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: <a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank"=
>loa@pi.nu</a><br>
Senior MPLS Expert=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:loa.pi.nu@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">loa.pi.nu@gmail.com</a><br>
Bronze Dragon Consulting=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pho=
ne: +46 739 81 21 64<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote></div></div>
</div>
</div>

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Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 14:10:54 +0000 (UTC)
From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Oscar_Gonz=C3=A1lez_de_Dios?= <oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>,  Shunsuke Homma <shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>,  "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>,  "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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 Hi Joel,
 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0As far as I can tell, the client should not be try=
ing to control the
details of which instance is used to fill the service function
requirements.IB>> But is not possible that in=C2=A0 the chain:AccessPoint 1=
 -> SF1->SF2->...-> AccessPoint2=C2=A0the client cares about SF1->SF2 delay=
 more than=C2=A0 about AccessPoint1 to AccessPoint2 delay ?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Constraints like "stay out of a certain country", or
"stay within a given country" would be expressed in terms of the
properties the slice is to meet (service level expectations).=C2=A0 Not by
controlling particular aspects of the service.
IB>> What if I want to stay away, say, from a particular DC? Would it be ea=
sier and more flexible to express such exclusions/inclusions in terms of an=
 abstract topology nodes representing countries, DCs, internal networks, et=
c.?

Igor

    On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 11:14:07 PM EDT, Shunsuke Homma <shunsuke.hom=
ma.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: =20
=20
 Hi,
Firstly, I also follow the WG consensus, and I=E2=80=99m ok to use =E2=80=
=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D if WG prefers it.
I assume there are mainly two types of use cases on (IETF) network slices:1=
. Providing slices to externals(customers) as a network service=C2=A02. Ope=
rating some internal network resources with the same slice system with case=
1
As far as I read other comments on the terms, most of people seem to focuse=
s on use cases where IETF network slices are provided as a type of network =
services (i.g., case1), and I=E2=80=99d like to confirm if case2 is also in=
 our scope and =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D can cover both cases. (I personal=
ly want to avoid using different terms depending on assumed use cases).


Btw, I agree with that slice management would be important, and we=E2=80=99=
ll need to clarify what =E2=80=9Ccustomers=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cproviders=
=E2=80=9D can do on slice managements. In my memory, the NS-DT=E2=80=99s st=
udy was started with an assumption that resources should be abstracted from=
 several reasons, such as usability, scalability, security, etc. In this as=
sumption, in my understanding, who controls network resources will be alway=
s slice provider (i.e., the owner of NSC). In other words, customers never =
manage resources structuring a slice directly, and a customer will send a s=
ervice request to a slice provider/NSC when he/she wants to create/change/d=
elete a slice. (I think this is fit to operation models considered in other=
 SDOs such as TMF.)=C2=A0




What can be done via service request will depend on design of slice service=
, and the current definition part provides just minimal sets of selectable =
parameters as SLOs. More details are provided in NBI drafts.




Regards,




Shunsuke=C2=A0

2021=E5=B9=B45=E6=9C=886=E6=97=A5(=E6=9C=A8) 20:53 Oscar Gonz=C3=A1lez de D=
ios <oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>:

Hi Adrian,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think what is really relevant is to have a cl=
ear definition on the chosen term to avoid misunderstandings. Unfortunately=
 today customer/consumer/client are used also in other contexts that might =
bring extra implications.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Said that, I am fine with the term custo=
mer. There are still a couple of places in the document where the term "ser=
vice customer" is used. Please change those to "IETF Network Slice customer=
" to be coherent.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 One argument in favor of the term customer is t=
hat the "IETF Network slice customer" makes use of the slice to fulfill its=
 needs (can be carry the traffic from a to b with a set of SLOs) and manage=
 the granted slice (that is, it can rearrange the resources it is allowed t=
o).=C2=A0 The term consumer misses the management part, which is a key diff=
erentiator of a slice.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 In the definition of customer, Can we just say:=
 " A customer may manage the granted IETF Network Slice.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Also, I'd like to clarify between the managemen=
t of the IETF Network slice that the customer can do and the management the=
 provider can do. The customer can "play" within the allocated resources, b=
ut may have some limitations. One question, the ability to manage the slice=
, is part of an SLO? Or should be defined separately with a different term?=
 It would be interesting to have the possibility to indicate what the slice=
 customer can manage and what not...

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I support moving earlier in the document the de=
finition of the IETF Network Slice Customer and, also, add a definition for=
 the IETF Network Slice Provider (although only "provider" is used thought =
the text).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Best Regards,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Oscar


-----Mensaje original-----
De: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> En nombre de Loa Andersson
Enviado el: jueves, 6 de mayo de 2021 9:31
Para: adrian@olddog.co.uk; mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; teas@ietf.org
Asunto: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices

Adrian,

That is acceptable.

As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions sec=
tion. I don't know if we can we place something in Section "2.=C2=A0 Terms =
and Abbreviations", but there seems to be only abbreviations.

Your wholesale example:

I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that buys f=
ood at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school the cust=
omer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the customer? The co=
ntract is with the school, negotiated by the cook, signed by the bursar.

I think "the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The cook=
 and the school kids could be viewed as consumers", one removed from the sy=
stem.

It strikes me that "Customer System" and "IETF Slice" are somewhat similar,=
 the risk is that we talk about "customer" (even if we change it), and "sli=
ce" (even though if is really "IETF Slice)",

Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I think we ha=
ve a enough support to use "customer".

I rest my case.

/Loa


On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the
> document)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Customer:=C2=A0 A customer is the requester of an IETF=
 Network Slice.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.=C2=
=A0 A customer may manage
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the IETF Network Slice service directly by int=
erfacing with the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator=
.
>
> We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise
> network or a network operator, an individual working at such an
> entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an
> application or software component."
>
> Cheers,
> Adrian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>; teas@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with
> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
>
> Hi all,
>
>> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>
> I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic
> enough to denote a role/entity.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Cheers,
> Med
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel
>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C3=80 : 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi=
.nu>;
>> teas@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with
>> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices
>>
>> Hi Loa,
>>
>>> On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent =
(we
>> only need to
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0use one term). I selected "Customer" =
because that seemed
>> best, but I
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0know some people prefer "consumer". P=
lease discuss if you
>> are not
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0happy.
>>>
>>> If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.
>>
>> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
>>
>>> I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
>>
>> It's never too late to bring things up.
>>
>>> But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
>>> indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
>> walks
>>> inte to your
>>> shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
>> your shop).
>>
>> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
>> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
>> school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as
>> the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
>> cook, signed by the bursar.
>>
>>> IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but
>> we
>>> don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
>>>
>>> I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
>>
>> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
>> instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may
>> become tiresome to read.
>>
>> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Adrian
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Teas mailing list
>> Teas@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>
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--

Loa Andersson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS Expert=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 loa.pi.nu@gmail.com
Bronze Dragon Consulting=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pho=
ne: +46 739 81 21 64

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 =20
------=_Part_1600662_950559792.1620396654176
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydpa37b78bdyahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px=
;"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Hi Joel,</div><div dir=3D"lt=
r" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><=
div> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, He=
lvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">As far as I can tell, the client should not be=
 trying to control the</span><br clear=3D"none" style=3D"font-family: Helve=
tica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-family: Helve=
tica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">details of which instance is used=
 to fill the service function</span><br clear=3D"none" style=3D"font-family=
: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-family=
: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">requirements.</span></div>=
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetic=
a Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">IB&gt;&gt; But is not possible that =
in&nbsp; the chain:</span></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">Acce=
ssPoint 1 -&gt; SF1-&gt;SF2-&gt;...-&gt; AccessPoint2</span></div><div dir=
=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, =
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">&nbsp;the client cares about SF1-&gt;SF2 del=
ay more than&nbsp; about AccessPoint1 to AccessPoint2 delay ?</span></div><=
div><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-seri=
f;"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helve=
tica, Arial, sans-serif;">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Constraints like "stay out o=
f a certain country", or</span><br clear=3D"none" style=3D"font-family: Hel=
vetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-family: Hel=
vetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">"stay within a given country" w=
ould be expressed in terms of the</span><br clear=3D"none" style=3D"font-fa=
mily: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">properties the slice i=
s to meet (service level expectations).&nbsp; Not by</span><br clear=3D"non=
e" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">con=
trolling particular aspects of the service.</span></div><div><br></div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">IB&gt;&gt; What if I want to stay away, =
say, from a particular DC? Would it be easier and more flexible to express =
such exclusions/inclusions in terms of an abstract topology nodes represent=
ing countries, DCs, internal networks, etc.?<br clear=3D"none" style=3D"fon=
t-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br clear=3D"none"=
 style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">Igor<=
/div><br></div><div><br></div>
       =20
        </div><div id=3D"yahoo_quoted_1337956437" class=3D"yahoo_quoted">
            <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
               =20
                <div>
                    On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 11:14:07 PM EDT, Shunsuke Hom=
ma &lt;shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
                </div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><div id=3D"yiv9695503491"><div><div><div><div><div sty=
le=3D"border-color:rgb(255,255,255);">Hi,</div><div style=3D"border-color:r=
gb(255,255,255);"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"border-color:rgb(2=
55,255,255);">Firstly, I also follow the WG consensus, and I=E2=80=99m ok t=
o use =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D if WG prefers it.</div><div style=3D"borde=
r-color:rgb(255,255,255);"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"border-co=
lor:rgb(255,255,255);">I assume there are mainly two types of use cases on =
(IETF) network slices:</div><div style=3D"border-color:rgb(255,255,255);">1=
. Providing slices to externals(customers) as a network service&nbsp;</div>=
<div style=3D"border-color:rgb(255,255,255);">2. Operating some internal ne=
twork resources with the same slice system with case1</div><div style=3D"bo=
rder-color:rgb(255,255,255);"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"border=
-color:rgb(255,255,255);">As far as I read other comments on the terms, mos=
t of people seem to focuses on use cases where IETF network slices are prov=
ided as a type of network services (i.g., case1), and I=E2=80=99d like to c=
onfirm if case2 is also in our scope and =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D can cov=
er both cases. (I personally want to avoid using different terms depending =
on assumed use cases).</div><div style=3D"border-color:rgb(255,255,255);"><=
br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"border-color:rgb(255,255,255);"><br c=
lear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"border-color:rgb(255,255,255);"><p class=
=3D"yiv9695503491p1" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px=
;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><span class=3D"yiv9695503491s1">Btw,=
 I agree with that slice management would be important, and we=E2=80=99ll n=
eed to clarify what =E2=80=9Ccustomers=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cproviders=E2=
=80=9D can do on slice managements. In my memory, the NS-DT=E2=80=99s study=
 was started with an assumption that resources should be abstracted from se=
veral reasons, such as usability, scalability, security, etc. In this assum=
ption, in my understanding, who controls network resources will be always s=
lice provider (i.e., the owner of NSC). In other words, customers never man=
age resources structuring a slice directly, and a customer will send a serv=
ice request to a slice provider/NSC when he/she wants to create/change/dele=
te a slice. (I think this is fit to operation models considered in other SD=
Os such as TMF.)&nbsp;</span></p><p class=3D"yiv9695503491p2" style=3D"marg=
in:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;min-height:20.=
3px;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><span class=3D"yiv9695503491s1"></span><br clear=3D"=
none"></p><p class=3D"yiv9695503491p1" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:nor=
mal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><span class=3D"yiv=
9695503491s1">What can be done via service request will depend on design of=
 slice service, and the current definition part provides just minimal sets =
of selectable parameters as SLOs. More details are provided in NBI drafts.<=
/span></p><p class=3D"yiv9695503491p1" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:nor=
mal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><span class=3D"yiv=
9695503491s1"><br clear=3D"none"></span></p><p class=3D"yiv9695503491p1" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);"><span class=3D"yiv9695503491s1">Regards,</span></p><p class=
=3D"yiv9695503491p1" style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px=
;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><span class=3D"yiv9695503491s1"><br =
clear=3D"none"></span></p><p class=3D"yiv9695503491p1" style=3D"margin:0px;=
font-stretch:normal;font-size:17px;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><s=
pan class=3D"yiv9695503491s1">Shunsuke&nbsp;</span></p></div></div><div><br=
 clear=3D"none"><div class=3D"yiv9695503491gmail_quote"><div class=3D"yiv96=
95503491gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">2021=E5=B9=B45=E6=9C=886=E6=97=A5(=E6=9C=A8=
) 20:53 Oscar Gonz=C3=A1lez de Dios &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener norefer=
rer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com" =
target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com">oscar=
.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com</a>&gt;:<br clear=3D"none"></div></div></div=
></div></div><div class=3D"yiv9695503491yqt1247093926" id=3D"yiv9695503491y=
qt43723"><div><div><div><div class=3D"yiv9695503491gmail_quote"><blockquote=
 class=3D"yiv9695503491gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color=
:rgb(204,204,204);">Hi Adrian,<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I think what is really relevant is to have a cl=
ear definition on the chosen term to avoid misunderstandings. Unfortunately=
 today customer/consumer/client are used also in other contexts that might =
bring extra implications.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Said that, I am fine with the term custo=
mer. There are still a couple of places in the document where the term "ser=
vice customer" is used. Please change those to "IETF Network Slice customer=
" to be coherent.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; One argument in favor of the term customer is t=
hat the "IETF Network slice customer" makes use of the slice to fulfill its=
 needs (can be carry the traffic from a to b with a set of SLOs) and manage=
 the granted slice (that is, it can rearrange the resources it is allowed t=
o).&nbsp; The term consumer misses the management part, which is a key diff=
erentiator of a slice.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In the definition of customer, Can we just say:=
 " A customer may manage the granted IETF Network Slice.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Also, I'd like to clarify between the managemen=
t of the IETF Network slice that the customer can do and the management the=
 provider can do. The customer can "play" within the allocated resources, b=
ut may have some limitations. One question, the ability to manage the slice=
, is part of an SLO? Or should be defined separately with a different term?=
 It would be interesting to have the possibility to indicate what the slice=
 customer can manage and what not...<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I support moving earlier in the document the de=
finition of the IETF Network Slice Customer and, also, add a definition for=
 the IETF Network Slice Provider (although only "provider" is used thought =
the text).<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Best Regards,<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Oscar<br clear=3D"n=
one">
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
-----Mensaje original-----<br clear=3D"none">
De: Teas &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:teas-bou=
nces@ietf.org">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; En nombre de Loa Andersson<br =
clear=3D"none">
Enviado el: jueves, 6 de mayo de 2021 9:31<br clear=3D"none">
Para: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mai=
lto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.=
uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>; <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=
=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<=
/a>; <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mail=
to:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf=
.org</a><br clear=3D"none">
Asunto: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices<=
br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Adrian,<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
That is acceptable.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions sec=
tion. I don't know if we can we place something in Section "2.&nbsp; Terms =
and Abbreviations", but there seems to be only abbreviations.<br clear=3D"n=
one">
<br clear=3D"none">
Your wholesale example:<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that buys f=
ood at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school the cust=
omer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the customer? The co=
ntract is with the school, negotiated by the cook, signed by the bursar.<br=
 clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
I think "the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The cook=
 and the school kids could be viewed as consumers", one removed from the sy=
stem.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
It strikes me that "Customer System" and "IETF Slice" are somewhat similar,=
 the risk is that we talk about "customer" (even if we change it), and "sli=
ce" (even though if is really "IETF Slice)",<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I think we ha=
ve a enough support to use "customer".<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
I rest my case.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
/Loa<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the<br c=
lear=3D"none">
&gt; document)<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Customer:&nbsp; A customer is the requester of an I=
ETF Network Slice.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.&n=
bsp; A customer may manage<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the IETF Network Slice service directly by =
interfacing with the<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestra=
tor.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise<br cle=
ar=3D"none">
&gt; network or a network operator, an individual working at such an<br cle=
ar=3D"none">
&gt; entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an<br clear=
=3D"none">
&gt; application or software component."<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; Cheers,<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; Adrian<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; From: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:m=
ohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a> &lt;<a rel=3D=
"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:mohamed.bou=
cadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orang=
e.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; To: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"=
mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.=
co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>; 'Loa Andersson' &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noop=
ener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_bla=
nk" href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;; <a rel=3D"nofollow noopene=
r noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank" href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a><br clear=3D"none">
&gt; Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; Hi all,<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic<=
br clear=3D"none">
&gt; enough to denote a role/entity.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; Thanks.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; Cheers,<br clear=3D"none">
&gt; Med<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; -----Message d'origine-----<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; De : Teas [mailto:<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D=
"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"m=
ailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Adria=
n Farrel<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C3=80 : 'Loa Andersson' &=
lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto=
:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;;<=
br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"=
mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@=
ietf.org</a> Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; Hi Loa,<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this=
 consistent (we<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; only need to<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;use one term). I selected=
 "Customer" because that seemed<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; best, but I<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;know some people prefer "=
consumer". Please discuss if you<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; are not<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;happy.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer custo=
mer.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; OK. So I made an improvement, but...<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.<br clear=3D"n=
one">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; It's never too late to bring things up.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong<b=
r clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; indication that that that a customer is a person (a person tha=
t<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; walks<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; inte to your<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought a=
t<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; your shop).<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school th=
at<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the<=
br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food=
 as<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the<b=
r clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; cook, signed by the bursar.<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, =
but<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; we<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; don't specify normative rules for human behavior.<br clear=3D"=
none">
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt;&gt; I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?<br clear=3D=
"none">
&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
&gt;&gt; I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73<br c=
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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I will let others comment on the best way to express constraints at the 
ietf network slice service level.  I do expect that there is an abstract 
topological representation at that level.

With regard to expressing a delay constraint between service function 
instances, my reaction is a combination of two opposites.  First, I ahve 
trouble, given the nature of service functions, seeing why that would be 
needed.  If there is a dialog (outside of the service function chain 
itseslf) among the instances, then something much more complex is going on.

If we really need to represent it, we can presumably do so in the 
abstract service topology.

Yours,
Joel

On 5/7/2021 10:10 AM, Igor Bryskin wrote:
> Hi Joel,
> 
> As far as I can tell, the client should not be trying to control the
> details of which instance is used to fill the service function
> requirements.
> IB>> But is not possible that inÂ  the chain:
> AccessPoint 1 -> SF1->SF2->...-> AccessPoint2
>  Â the client cares about SF1->SF2 delay more thanÂ  about AccessPoint1 to 
> AccessPoint2 delay ?
> 
>  Â  Â  Â  Constraints like "stay out of a certain country", or
> "stay within a given country" would be expressed in terms of the
> properties the slice is to meet (service level expectations).Â  Not by
> controlling particular aspects of the service.
> 
> IB>> What if I want to stay away, say, from a particular DC? Would it be 
> easier and more flexible to express such exclusions/inclusions in terms 
> of an abstract topology nodes representing countries, DCs, internal 
> networks, etc.?
> 
> Igor
> 
> 
> On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 11:14:07 PM EDT, Shunsuke Homma 
> <shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Firstly, I also follow the WG consensus, and Iâ€™m ok to use â€œcustomerâ€ if 
> WG prefers it.
> 
> I assume there are mainly two types of use cases on (IETF) network slices:
> 1. Providing slices to externals(customers) as a network service
> 2. Operating some internal network resources with the same slice system 
> with case1
> 
> As far as I read other comments on the terms, most of people seem to 
> focuses on use cases where IETF network slices are provided as a type of 
> network services (i.g., case1), and Iâ€™d like to confirm if case2 is also 
> in our scope and â€œcustomerâ€ can cover both cases. (I personally want to 
> avoid using different terms depending on assumed use cases).
> 
> 
> Btw, I agree with that slice management would be important, and weâ€™ll 
> need to clarify what â€œcustomersâ€ and â€œprovidersâ€ can do on slice 
> managements. In my memory, the NS-DTâ€™s study was started with an 
> assumption that resources should be abstracted from several reasons, 
> such as usability, scalability, security, etc. In this assumption, in my 
> understanding, who controls network resources will be always slice 
> provider (i.e., the owner of NSC). In other words, customers never 
> manage resources structuring a slice directly, and a customer will send 
> a service request to a slice provider/NSC when he/she wants to 
> create/change/delete a slice. (I think this is fit to operation models 
> considered in other SDOs such as TMF.)
> 
> 
> What can be done via service request will depend on design of slice 
> service, and the current definition part provides just minimal sets of 
> selectable parameters as SLOs. More details are provided in NBI drafts.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Shunsuke
> 
> 
> 2021å¹´5æœˆ6æ—¥(æœ¨) 20:53 Oscar GonzÃ¡lez de Dios 
> <oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com 
> <mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>>:
> 
>     Hi Adrian,
> 
>      Â  Â  Â  Â  I think what is really relevant is to have a clear
>     definition on the chosen term to avoid misunderstandings.
>     Unfortunately today customer/consumer/client are used also in other
>     contexts that might bring extra implications.
> 
>      Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Said that, I am fine with the term customer. There are
>     still a couple of places in the document where the term "service
>     customer" is used. Please change those to "IETF Network Slice
>     customer" to be coherent.
> 
>      Â  Â  Â  Â  One argument in favor of the term customer is that the
>     "IETF Network slice customer" makes use of the slice to fulfill its
>     needs (can be carry the traffic from a to b with a set of SLOs) and
>     manage the granted slice (that is, it can rearrange the resources it
>     is allowed to).Â  The term consumer misses the management part, which
>     is a key differentiator of a slice.
> 
>      Â  Â  Â  Â  In the definition of customer, Can we just say: " A
>     customer may manage the granted IETF Network Slice.
> 
>      Â  Â  Â  Â  Also, I'd like to clarify between the management of the
>     IETF Network slice that the customer can do and the management the
>     provider can do. The customer can "play" within the allocated
>     resources, but may have some limitations. One question, the ability
>     to manage the slice, is part of an SLO? Or should be defined
>     separately with a different term? It would be interesting to have
>     the possibility to indicate what the slice customer can manage and
>     what not...
> 
>      Â  Â  Â  Â  I support moving earlier in the document the definition of
>     the IETF Network Slice Customer and, also, add a definition for the
>     IETF Network Slice Provider (although only "provider" is used
>     thought the text).
> 
>      Â  Â  Â  Â  Best Regards,
> 
>      Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Oscar
> 
> 
>     -----Mensaje original-----
>     De: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>> En
>     nombre de Loa Andersson
>     Enviado el: jueves, 6 de mayo de 2021 9:31
>     Para: adrian@olddog.co.uk <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>;
>     mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>;
>     teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>
>     Asunto: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with
>     draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
> 
>     Adrian,
> 
>     That is acceptable.
> 
>     As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a
>     definitions section. I don't know if we can we place something in
>     Section "2.Â  Terms and Abbreviations", but there seems to be only
>     abbreviations.
> 
>     Your wholesale example:
> 
>     I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
>     buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
>     school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food
>     as the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
>     cook, signed by the bursar.
> 
>     I think "the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context.
>     The cook and the school kids could be viewed as consumers", one
>     removed from the system.
> 
>     It strikes me that "Customer System" and "IETF Slice" are somewhat
>     similar, the risk is that we talk about "customer" (even if we
>     change it), and "slice" (even though if is really "IETF Slice)",
> 
>     Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I
>     think we have a enough support to use "customer".
> 
>     I rest my case.
> 
>     /Loa
> 
> 
>     On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:
>      > We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the
>      > document)
>      >
>      >Â  Â  Â Customer:Â  A customer is the requester of an IETF Network Slice.
>      >Â  Â  Â  Â  Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.Â  A customer may
>     manage
>      >Â  Â  Â  Â  the IETF Network Slice service directly by interfacing
>     with the
>      >Â  Â  Â  Â  IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator.
>      >
>      > We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise
>      > network or a network operator, an individual working at such an
>      > entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an
>      > application or software component."
>      >
>      > Cheers,
>      > Adrian
>      >
>      > -----Original Message-----
>      > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
>     <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
>     <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>>
>      > Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
>      > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>; 'Loa
>     Andersson' <loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu>>; teas@ietf.org
>     <mailto:teas@ietf.org>
>      > Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with
>      > draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
>      >
>      > Hi all,
>      >
>      >> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>      >
>      > I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic
>      > enough to denote a role/entity.
>      >
>      > Thanks.
>      >
>      > Cheers,
>      > Med
>      >
>      >> -----Message d'origine-----
>      >> De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>] De la part de Adrian Farrel
>      >> EnvoyÃ© : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 Ã€ : 'Loa Andersson'
>     <loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu>>;
>      >> teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org> Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving
>     forward with
>      >> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices
>      >>
>      >> Hi Loa,
>      >>
>      >>> On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
>      >>>
>      >>>>Â  Â  c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we
>      >> only need to
>      >>>>Â  Â  Â  Â  Â use one term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed
>      >> best, but I
>      >>>>Â  Â  Â  Â  Â know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you
>      >> are not
>      >>>>Â  Â  Â  Â  Â happy.
>      >>>
>      >>> If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.
>      >>
>      >> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
>      >>
>      >>> I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
>      >>
>      >> It's never too late to bring things up.
>      >>
>      >>> But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
>      >>> indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
>      >> walks
>      >>> inte to your
>      >>> shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
>      >> your shop).
>      >>
>      >> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
>      >> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
>      >> school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the
>     food as
>      >> the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
>      >> cook, signed by the bursar.
>      >>
>      >>> IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but
>      >> we
>      >>> don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
>      >>>
>      >>> I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
>      >>
>      >> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
>      >> instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may
>      >> become tiresome to read.
>      >>
>      >> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>      >>
>      >> Cheers,
>      >> Adrian
>      >>
>      >> _______________________________________________
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>      >> Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
>      >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas>
>      >
>      >
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>     Loa AnderssonÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  email: loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu>
>     Senior MPLS Expert loa.pi.nu@gmail.com <mailto:loa.pi.nu@gmail.com>
>     Bronze Dragon ConsultingÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â phone: +46 739 81 21 64
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From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
To: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
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 Thanks Joel,
I was hoping you'd say something like that, because this is what=C2=A0 I wa=
s kind of getting at :) In TEAS we are working on SF-aware abstract topolog=
y model that IMHO can help.
draft-ietf-teas-sf-aware-topo-model-07 - SF Aware TE Topology YANG Model



Regards,Igor
    On Friday, May 7, 2021, 10:31:08 AM EDT, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpe=
rn.com> wrote: =20
=20
 I will let others comment on the best way to express constraints at the=20
ietf network slice service level.=C2=A0 I do expect that there is an abstra=
ct=20
topological representation at that level.

With regard to expressing a delay constraint between service function=20
instances, my reaction is a combination of two opposites.=C2=A0 First, I ah=
ve=20
trouble, given the nature of service functions, seeing why that would be=20
needed.=C2=A0 If there is a dialog (outside of the service function chain=
=20
itseslf) among the instances, then something much more complex is going on.

If we really need to represent it, we can presumably do so in the=20
abstract service topology.

Yours,
Joel

On 5/7/2021 10:10 AM, Igor Bryskin wrote:
> Hi Joel,
>=20
> As far as I can tell, the client should not be trying to control the
> details of which instance is used to fill the service function
> requirements.
> IB>> But is not possible that in=C2=A0 the chain:
> AccessPoint 1 -> SF1->SF2->...-> AccessPoint2
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the client cares about SF1->SF2 delay more than=C2=A0 about A=
ccessPoint1 to=20
> AccessPoint2 delay ?
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Constraints like "stay out of a certain countr=
y", or
> "stay within a given country" would be expressed in terms of the
> properties the slice is to meet (service level expectations).=C2=A0 Not b=
y
> controlling particular aspects of the service.
>=20
> IB>> What if I want to stay away, say, from a particular DC? Would it be=
=20
> easier and more flexible to express such exclusions/inclusions in terms=
=20
> of an abstract topology nodes representing countries, DCs, internal=20
> networks, etc.?
>=20
> Igor
>=20
>=20
> On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 11:14:07 PM EDT, Shunsuke Homma=20
> <shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> Firstly, I also follow the WG consensus, and I=E2=80=99m ok to use =E2=80=
=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D if=20
> WG prefers it.
>=20
> I assume there are mainly two types of use cases on (IETF) network slices=
:
> 1. Providing slices to externals(customers) as a network service
> 2. Operating some internal network resources with the same slice system=
=20
> with case1
>=20
> As far as I read other comments on the terms, most of people seem to=20
> focuses on use cases where IETF network slices are provided as a type of=
=20
> network services (i.g., case1), and I=E2=80=99d like to confirm if case2 =
is also=20
> in our scope and =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D can cover both cases. (I pers=
onally want to=20
> avoid using different terms depending on assumed use cases).
>=20
>=20
> Btw, I agree with that slice management would be important, and we=E2=80=
=99ll=20
> need to clarify what =E2=80=9Ccustomers=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cproviders=
=E2=80=9D can do on slice=20
> managements. In my memory, the NS-DT=E2=80=99s study was started with an=
=20
> assumption that resources should be abstracted from several reasons,=20
> such as usability, scalability, security, etc. In this assumption, in my=
=20
> understanding, who controls network resources will be always slice=20
> provider (i.e., the owner of NSC). In other words, customers never=20
> manage resources structuring a slice directly, and a customer will send=
=20
> a service request to a slice provider/NSC when he/she wants to=20
> create/change/delete a slice. (I think this is fit to operation models=20
> considered in other SDOs such as TMF.)
>=20
>=20
> What can be done via service request will depend on design of slice=20
> service, and the current definition part provides just minimal sets of=20
> selectable parameters as SLOs. More details are provided in NBI drafts.
>=20
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
>=20
> Shunsuke
>=20
>=20
> 2021=E5=B9=B45=E6=9C=886=E6=97=A5(=E6=9C=A8) 20:53 Oscar Gonz=C3=A1lez de=
 Dios=20
> <oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com=20
> <mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>>:
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hi Adrian,
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think what is really re=
levant is to have a clear
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 definition on the chosen term to avoid misunderstandings.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Unfortunately today customer/consumer/client are used also i=
n other
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 contexts that might bring extra implications.
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Said that, I am fi=
ne with the term customer. There are
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 still a couple of places in the document where the term "ser=
vice
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 customer" is used. Please change those to "IETF Network Slic=
e
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 customer" to be coherent.
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 One argument in favor of =
the term customer is that the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "IETF Network slice customer" makes use of the slice to fulf=
ill its
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 needs (can be carry the traffic from a to b with a set of SL=
Os) and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 manage the granted slice (that is, it can rearrange the reso=
urces it
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is allowed to).=C2=A0 The term consumer misses the managemen=
t part, which
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is a key differentiator of a slice.
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 In the definition of cust=
omer, Can we just say: " A
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 customer may manage the granted IETF Network Slice.
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Also, I'd like to clarify=
 between the management of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IETF Network slice that the customer can do and the manageme=
nt the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 provider can do. The customer can "play" within the allocate=
d
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 resources, but may have some limitations. One question, the =
ability
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to manage the slice, is part of an SLO? Or should be defined
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 separately with a different term? It would be interesting to=
 have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the possibility to indicate what the slice customer can mana=
ge and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 what not...
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I support moving earlier =
in the document the definition of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the IETF Network Slice Customer and, also, add a definition =
for the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IETF Network Slice Provider (although only "provider" is use=
d
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 thought the text).
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Best Regards,
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 Oscar
>=20
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -----Mensaje original-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 De: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.or=
g>> En
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 nombre de Loa Andersson
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Enviado el: jueves, 6 de mayo de 2021 9:31
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Para: adrian@olddog.co.uk <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orang=
e.com>;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Asunto: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Adrian,
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That is acceptable.
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 definitions section. I don't know if we can we place somethi=
ng in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section "2.=C2=A0 Terms and Abbreviations", but there seems =
to be only
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 abbreviations.
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Your wholesale example:
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the sch=
ool that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you cal=
l the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys th=
e food
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated=
 by the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cook, signed by the bursar.
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think "the school! is the customer, which is OK in this co=
ntext.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The cook and the school kids could be viewed as consumers", =
one
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 removed from the system.
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It strikes me that "Customer System" and "IETF Slice" are so=
mewhat
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 similar, the risk is that we talk about "customer" (even if =
we
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 change it), and "slice" (even though if is really "IETF Slic=
e)",
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus=
, I
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 think we have a enough support to use "customer".
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I rest my case.
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 /Loa
>=20
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a b=
it late in the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > document)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Customer:=C2=A0 A customer is th=
e requester of an IETF Network Slice.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Customers may request mo=
nitoring of SLOs.=C2=A0 A customer may
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 manage
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the IETF Network Slice s=
ervice directly by interfacing
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 with the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IETF NSC or indirectly t=
hrough an orchestrator.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > We could add "A customer may be an entity such as a=
n enterprise
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > network or a network operator, an individual workin=
g at such an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > entity, a private individual contracting for a serv=
ice, or an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > application or software component."
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Cheers,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Adrian
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> <mohamed.boucadair@ora=
nge.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk=
>; 'Loa
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Andersson' <loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu>>; teas@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:teas@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hi all,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I would simply use "customer" and make sure the def=
inition is generic
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > enough to denote a role/entity.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Thanks.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Cheers,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Med
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> -----Message d'origine-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>] De la part de Adrian Farrel
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C3=80 : '=
Loa Andersson'
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu>>;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org> Objet : Re: [=
Teas] Moving
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 forward with
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Hi Loa,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have=
 made this consistent (we
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> only need to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0use one term). =
I selected "Customer" because that seemed
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> best, but I
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0know some peopl=
e prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> are not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0happy.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I=
 prefer customer.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> It's never too late to bring things up.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> But I really don't like either, normal language h=
as a strong
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> indication that that that a customer is a person =
(a person that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> walks
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> inte to your
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats wh=
at I bought at
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> your shop).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you ca=
ll the school that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? =
Do you call the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> school the customer, or do you refer to the cook w=
ho buys the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 food as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> the customer? The contract is with the school, neg=
otiated by the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> cook, signed by the bursar.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> IETF specifies "systems", including what goes int=
o SW and HW, but
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> we
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>> I don't know if we can talk about Customer System=
?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. T=
here are 73
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> instances of "customer" in the document, and "cust=
omer system" may
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> become tiresome to read.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Cheers,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Adrian
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> _______________________________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Teas mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ____________________________________________________________=
__________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ______ ____________________________________________=
_
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>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > _______________________________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Teas mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
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>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Loa Andersson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Senior MPLS Expert loa.pi.nu@gmail.com <mailto:loa.pi.nu@gma=
il.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bronze Dragon Consulting=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0phone: +46 739 81 21 64
>=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Teas mailing list
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>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas>
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>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ________________________________
>=20
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<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydpa4df3a01yahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px=
;"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Thanks Joel,</div><div dir=
=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"fa=
lse">I was hoping you'd say something like that, because this is what&nbsp;=
 I was kind of getting at :) In TEAS we are working on SF-aware abstract to=
pology model that IMHO can help.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false=
"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><span><a href=3D"https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-sf-aware-topo-model/" rel=3D"nofo=
llow" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-teas-sf-aware-topo-model-07 - SF Aware T=
E Topology YANG Model</a></span><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"f=
alse"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"fa=
lse">Regards,</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Igor</div><div><b=
r></div>
       =20
        </div><div id=3D"yahoo_quoted_0480591226" class=3D"yahoo_quoted">
            <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
               =20
                <div>
                    On Friday, May 7, 2021, 10:31:08 AM EDT, Joel M. Halper=
n &lt;jmh@joelhalpern.com&gt; wrote:
                </div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><div dir=3D"ltr">I will let others comment on the best=
 way to express constraints at the <br clear=3D"none">ietf network slice se=
rvice level.&nbsp; I do expect that there is an abstract <br clear=3D"none"=
>topological representation at that level.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"n=
one">With regard to expressing a delay constraint between service function =
<br clear=3D"none">instances, my reaction is a combination of two opposites=
.&nbsp; First, I ahve <br clear=3D"none">trouble, given the nature of servi=
ce functions, seeing why that would be <br clear=3D"none">needed.&nbsp; If =
there is a dialog (outside of the service function chain <br clear=3D"none"=
>itseslf) among the instances, then something much more complex is going on=
.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">If we really need to represent it, w=
e can presumably do so in the <br clear=3D"none">abstract service topology.=
<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Yours,<br clear=3D"none">Joel<br clea=
r=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">On 5/7/2021 10:10 AM, Igor Bryskin wrote:<br =
clear=3D"none">&gt; Hi Joel,<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;=
 As far as I can tell, the client should not be trying to control the<br cl=
ear=3D"none">&gt; details of which instance is used to fill the service fun=
ction<br clear=3D"none">&gt; requirements.<br clear=3D"none">&gt; IB&gt;&gt=
; But is not possible that in&nbsp; the chain:<br clear=3D"none">&gt; Acces=
sPoint 1 -&gt; SF1-&gt;SF2-&gt;...-&gt; AccessPoint2<br clear=3D"none">&gt;=
&nbsp; &nbsp;the client cares about SF1-&gt;SF2 delay more than&nbsp; about=
 AccessPoint1 to <br clear=3D"none">&gt; AccessPoint2 delay ?<br clear=3D"n=
one">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Constraints li=
ke "stay out of a certain country", or<br clear=3D"none">&gt; "stay within =
a given country" would be expressed in terms of the<br clear=3D"none">&gt; =
properties the slice is to meet (service level expectations).&nbsp; Not by<=
br clear=3D"none">&gt; controlling particular aspects of the service.<br cl=
ear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; IB&gt;&gt; What if I want to stay=
 away, say, from a particular DC? Would it be <br clear=3D"none">&gt; easie=
r and more flexible to express such exclusions/inclusions in terms <br clea=
r=3D"none">&gt; of an abstract topology nodes representing countries, DCs, =
internal <br clear=3D"none">&gt; networks, etc.?<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br=
 clear=3D"none">&gt; Igor<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; <b=
r clear=3D"none">&gt; On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 11:14:07 PM EDT, Shunsuke H=
omma <br clear=3D"none">&gt; &lt;<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:shunsu=
ke.homma.ietf@gmail.com" href=3D"mailto:shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com">shun=
suke.homma.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=
=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; Hi,<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=
=3D"none">&gt; Firstly, I also follow the WG consensus, and I=E2=80=99m ok =
to use =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D if <br clear=3D"none">&gt; WG prefers it.=
<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; I assume there are mainly t=
wo types of use cases on (IETF) network slices:<br clear=3D"none">&gt; 1. P=
roviding slices to externals(customers) as a network service<br clear=3D"no=
ne">&gt; 2. Operating some internal network resources with the same slice s=
ystem <br clear=3D"none">&gt; with case1<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=
=3D"none">&gt; As far as I read other comments on the terms, most of people=
 seem to <br clear=3D"none">&gt; focuses on use cases where IETF network sl=
ices are provided as a type of <br clear=3D"none">&gt; network services (i.=
g., case1), and I=E2=80=99d like to confirm if case2 is also <br clear=3D"n=
one">&gt; in our scope and =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D can cover both cases.=
 (I personally want to <br clear=3D"none">&gt; avoid using different terms =
depending on assumed use cases).<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">=
&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; Btw, I agree with that slice management would =
be important, and we=E2=80=99ll <br clear=3D"none">&gt; need to clarify wha=
t =E2=80=9Ccustomers=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cproviders=E2=80=9D can do on sli=
ce <br clear=3D"none">&gt; managements. In my memory, the NS-DT=E2=80=99s s=
tudy was started with an <br clear=3D"none">&gt; assumption that resources =
should be abstracted from several reasons, <br clear=3D"none">&gt; such as =
usability, scalability, security, etc. In this assumption, in my <br clear=
=3D"none">&gt; understanding, who controls network resources will be always=
 slice <br clear=3D"none">&gt; provider (i.e., the owner of NSC). In other =
words, customers never <br clear=3D"none">&gt; manage resources structuring=
 a slice directly, and a customer will send <br clear=3D"none">&gt; a servi=
ce request to a slice provider/NSC when he/she wants to <br clear=3D"none">=
&gt; create/change/delete a slice. (I think this is fit to operation models=
 <br clear=3D"none">&gt; considered in other SDOs such as TMF.)<br clear=3D=
"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; What can be don=
e via service request will depend on design of slice <br clear=3D"none">&gt=
; service, and the current definition part provides just minimal sets of <b=
r clear=3D"none">&gt; selectable parameters as SLOs. More details are provi=
ded in NBI drafts.<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=
=3D"none">&gt; Regards,<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br =
clear=3D"none">&gt; Shunsuke<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;=
 <br clear=3D"none">&gt; 2021=E5=B9=B45=E6=9C=886=E6=97=A5(=E6=9C=A8) 20:53=
 Oscar Gonz=C3=A1lez de Dios <br clear=3D"none">&gt; &lt;<a shape=3D"rect" =
ymailto=3D"mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com" href=3D"mailto:oscar=
.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com">oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com</a> <br=
 clear=3D"none">&gt; &lt;mailto:<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:oscar.g=
onzalezdedios@telefonica.com" href=3D"mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonic=
a.com">oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com</a>&gt;&gt;:<br clear=3D"none">&=
gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  Hi Adrian,<br clear=3D"none">&gt;=
 <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I =
think what is really relevant is to have a clear<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbs=
p; &nbsp;  definition on the chosen term to avoid misunderstandings.<br cle=
ar=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  Unfortunately today customer/consumer/client=
 are used also in other<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  contexts that =
might bring extra implications.<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&=
gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Said that, I am =
fine with the term customer. There are<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
 still a couple of places in the document where the term "service<br clear=
=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  customer" is used. Please change those to "IET=
F Network Slice<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  customer" to be cohere=
nt.<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; One argument in favor of the term customer is that =
the<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  "IETF Network slice customer" make=
s use of the slice to fulfill its<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  need=
s (can be carry the traffic from a to b with a set of SLOs) and<br clear=3D=
"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  manage the granted slice (that is, it can rearran=
ge the resources it<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  is allowed to).&nb=
sp; The term consumer misses the management part, which<br clear=3D"none">&=
gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  is a key differentiator of a slice.<br clear=3D"none">&gt=
; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I=
n the definition of customer, Can we just say: " A<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&n=
bsp; &nbsp;  customer may manage the granted IETF Network Slice.<br clear=
=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; Also, I'd like to clarify between the management of the<br clea=
r=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  IETF Network slice that the customer can do a=
nd the management the<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  provider can do.=
 The customer can "play" within the allocated<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;  resources, but may have some limitations. One question, the ability=
<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  to manage the slice, is part of an SL=
O? Or should be defined<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  separately wit=
h a different term? It would be interesting to have<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&=
nbsp; &nbsp;  the possibility to indicate what the slice customer can manag=
e and<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  what not...<br clear=3D"none">&g=
t; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
I support moving earlier in the document the definition of<br clear=3D"none=
">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  the IETF Network Slice Customer and, also, add a defin=
ition for the<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  IETF Network Slice Provi=
der (although only "provider" is used<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  =
thought the text).<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Best Regards,<br clear=3D"none">&gt;=
 <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Oscar<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&=
gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  -----Mensaje original-----<br cle=
ar=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  De: Teas &lt;<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"ma=
ilto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org">teas-boun=
ces@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:teas-bounce=
s@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>=
&gt;&gt; En<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  nombre de Loa Andersson<br=
 clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  Enviado el: jueves, 6 de mayo de 2021 9:=
31<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  Para: <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"=
mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@oldd=
og.co.uk</a> &lt;mailto:<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.c=
o.uk" href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;;<br c=
lear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:mohame=
d.boucadair@orange.com" href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohame=
d.boucadair@orange.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:m=
ohamed.boucadair@orange.com" href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">m=
ohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  <=
a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.=
org">teas@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:teas@=
ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"n=
one">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  Asunto: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with<br clear=3D"=
none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices<br clear=3D"no=
ne">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  Adrian,<br clear=3D"none">&g=
t; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  That is acceptable.<br clear=3D"no=
ne">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  As you said it is late in th=
e document, and really not in a<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  defini=
tions section. I don't know if we can we place something in<br clear=3D"non=
e">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  Section "2.&nbsp; Terms and Abbreviations", but there=
 seems to be only<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  abbreviations.<br cl=
ear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  Your wholesale exam=
ple:<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  I think y=
ou forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that<br clear=3D"non=
e">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do =
you call the<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  school the customer, or d=
o you refer to the cook who buys the food<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbs=
p;  as the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the<br =
clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  cook, signed by the bursar.<br clear=3D"n=
one">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  I think "the school! is the=
 customer, which is OK in this context.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;=
  The cook and the school kids could be viewed as consumers", one<br clear=
=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  removed from the system.<br clear=3D"none">&gt=
; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  It strikes me that "Customer System=
" and "IETF Slice" are somewhat<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  simila=
r, the risk is that we talk about "customer" (even if we<br clear=3D"none">=
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  change it), and "slice" (even though if is really "IETF =
Slice)",<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  Havin=
g said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I<br clear=3D"none=
">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  think we have a enough support to use "customer".<br c=
lear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  I rest my case.<br=
 clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  /Loa<br clear=3D=
"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  O=
n 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &gt; We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in=
 the<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; document)<br clear=3D"=
none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Customer:&nbsp; A customer is the requester of =
an IETF Network Slice.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.&nbsp; A cu=
stomer may<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  manage<br clear=3D"none">&g=
t;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the IETF Network Sli=
ce service directly by interfacing<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  wit=
h the<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator.<br clear=3D"none">&gt=
;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; =
We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise<br clear=3D=
"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; network or a network operator, an indi=
vidual working at such an<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; e=
ntity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an<br clear=3D"no=
ne">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; application or software component."<br cl=
ear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &gt; Cheers,<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; Adr=
ian<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; From: <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:mohamed.=
boucadair@orange.com" href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.=
boucadair@orange.com</a><br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  &lt;mailto:<a=
 shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" href=3D"mai=
lto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt; &lt;=
<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" href=3D"m=
ailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a><br cle=
ar=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  &lt;mailto:<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mail=
to:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.co=
m">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &gt; Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &gt; To: <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" =
href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a> &lt;mailto:<a s=
hape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" href=3D"mailto:adrian@=
olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;; 'Loa<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp=
; &nbsp;  Andersson' &lt;<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" hre=
f=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu</a> &lt;mailto:<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;&gt;; <a s=
hape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org=
">teas@ietf.org</a><br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  &lt;mailto:<a shap=
e=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">t=
eas@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; Subjec=
t: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &gt; draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; Hi all,<br =
clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br clea=
r=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &gt; I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is=
 generic<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; enough to denote a=
 role/entity.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;<br clear=3D"n=
one">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; Thanks.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; Cheers,<br =
clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; Med<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; -=
----Message d'origine-----<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&=
gt; De : Teas [mailto:<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf=
.org" href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a><br cl=
ear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  &lt;mailto:<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mai=
lto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org">teas-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>&gt;] De la part de Adrian Farrel<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C3=80 : =
'Loa Andersson'<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  &lt;<a shape=3D"rect" =
ymailto=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu</a> &lt;ma=
ilto:<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.n=
u">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;&gt;;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&g=
t; <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:teas@i=
etf.org">teas@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:t=
eas@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a>&gt; Objet : R=
e: [Teas] Moving<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  forward with<br clear=
=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- s=
lices<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none"=
>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; Hi Loa,<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;&gt;=
 On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;&gt;=
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent =
(we<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; only need to<br cle=
ar=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp;use one term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed<br cle=
ar=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; best, but I<br clear=3D"none"=
>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you<br clear=3D"none=
">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; are not<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;happy.<br cle=
ar=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;&gt; If the choice is between customer vs. consum=
er, I prefer customer.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;<=
br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; OK. So I made an improv=
ement, but...<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;<br clear=
=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;&gt; I don't know if it is too l=
ate to bring this up.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;<b=
r clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; It's never too late to b=
ring things up.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;<br clea=
r=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;&gt; But I really don't like ei=
ther, normal language has a strong<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &gt;&gt;&gt; indication that that that a customer is a person (a person =
that<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; walks<br clear=3D"=
none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;&gt; inte to your<br clear=3D"none">=
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;&gt; shop) and consumer is also a person /=
that eats what I bought at<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&=
gt; your shop).<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;<br clea=
r=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; I think you forget about whole=
sale. What do you call the school that<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &gt;&gt; buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you ca=
ll the<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; school the custo=
mer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;  food as<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; the cus=
tomer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the<br clear=3D"none"=
>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; cook, signed by the bursar.<br clear=3D"=
none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &gt;&gt;&gt; IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW =
and HW, but<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; we<br clear=
=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;&gt; don't specify normative rul=
es for human behavior.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;&=
gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;&gt; I don't know if=
 we can talk about Customer System?<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; I'm afraid=
 of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; instances of "customer" in the document, and "=
customer system" may<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; be=
come tiresome to read.<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;<=
br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; Anyone else got anythin=
g to say on the topic?<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;<=
br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; Cheers,<br clear=3D"non=
e">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; Adrian<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;&gt; __=
_____________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; =
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_____________________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">&gt=
;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; ______ _________________________________________=
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clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; _______________________________________________<br clear=
=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; Teas mailing list<br clear=3D"none"=
>&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Teas@iet=
f.org" href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org">Teas@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a shape=
=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org">Te=
as@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; <a shap=
e=3D"rect" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br clear=3D"none">&gt;=
&nbsp; &nbsp;  &lt;<a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l=
istinfo/teas" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas<=
/a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;<br clear=3D"none">&=
gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  --<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br cle=
ar=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  Loa Andersson&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; email: <a shape=3D"rec=
t" ymailto=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu</a> &lt=
;mailto:<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" href=3D"mailto:loa@p=
i.nu">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  Senior MPLS Ex=
pert <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:loa.pi.nu@gmail.com" href=3D"mailt=
o:loa.pi.nu@gmail.com">loa.pi.nu@gmail.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a shape=3D"rect"=
 ymailto=3D"mailto:loa.pi.nu@gmail.com" href=3D"mailto:loa.pi.nu@gmail.com"=
>loa.pi.nu@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  Bronze Dr=
agon Consulting&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;phone: +46 7=
39 81 21 64<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  __=
_____________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;  Teas mailing list<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  <a shape=3D"=
rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org">Teas@i=
etf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" h=
ref=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org">Teas@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&n=
bsp; &nbsp;  <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf=
o/teas" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br=
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w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/teas</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&=
nbsp; &nbsp;  ________________________________<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br c=
lear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exc=
lusivamente a su<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  destinatario, puede c=
ontener informaci=C3=B3n privilegiada o confidencial<br clear=3D"none">&gt;=
&nbsp; &nbsp;  y es para uso exclusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. =
Si no es<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  usted. el destinatario indica=
do, queda notificado de que la lectura,<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;=
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cci=C3=B3n.<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  Th=
e information contained in this transmission is privileged and<br clear=3D"=
none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  confidential information intended only for the use=
 of the individual<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  or entity named abo=
ve. If the reader of this message is not the<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &=
nbsp;  intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,<=
br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  distribution or copying of this commun=
ication is strictly<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  prohibited. If you=
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sp; &nbsp;  read it. Please immediately reply to the sender that you have<b=
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rio indicado, fica notificado de que a<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; =
 leitura, utiliza=C3=A7=C3=A3o, divulga=C3=A7=C3=A3o e/ou c=C3=B3pia sem au=
toriza=C3=A7=C3=A3o pode<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  estar proibid=
a em virtude da legisla=C3=A7=C3=A3o vigente. Se recebeu esta<br clear=3D"n=
one">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique =
imediatamente por<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  esta mesma via e pro=
ceda a sua destrui=C3=A7=C3=A3o<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  ______=
_________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbs=
p;  Teas mailing list<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;  <a shape=3D"rect=
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org</a> &lt;mailto:<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" href=
=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org">Teas@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&nbsp=
; &nbsp;  <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/t=
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an/listinfo/teas</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; ___=
____________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">&gt; Teas ma=
iling list<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Teas@=
ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org">Teas@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a sha=
pe=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org">=
Teas@ietf.org</a>&gt;<div class=3D"yqt0519959541" id=3D"yqtfd95956"><br cle=
ar=3D"none">&gt; <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis=
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stinfo/teas</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; ________=
_______________________________________<br clear=3D"none">&gt; Teas mailing=
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 <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br clear=3D"no=
ne">&gt; <br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">____________________________=
___________________<br clear=3D"none">Teas mailing list<br clear=3D"none"><=
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------=_Part_1567753_1740677227.1620405307623--


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From: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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the expectation currently is that the IETF Network Slice Service will 
use something along the lines of the service models (L2SM and L3SM).  It 
seems reasonable to enhance those with something about service 
functions, quite possibly along the lines you are already working on.

Yours,
Joel

On 5/7/2021 12:35 PM, Igor Bryskin wrote:
> Thanks Joel,
> 
> I was hoping you'd say something like that, because this is whatÂ  I was 
> kind of getting at :) In TEAS we are working on SF-aware abstract 
> topology model that IMHO can help.
> 
> draft-ietf-teas-sf-aware-topo-model-07 - SF Aware TE Topology YANG Model 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-sf-aware-topo-model/>
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Igor
> 
> On Friday, May 7, 2021, 10:31:08 AM EDT, Joel M. Halpern 
> <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> I will let others comment on the best way to express constraints at the
> ietf network slice service level.Â  I do expect that there is an abstract
> topological representation at that level.
> 
> With regard to expressing a delay constraint between service function
> instances, my reaction is a combination of two opposites.Â  First, I ahve
> trouble, given the nature of service functions, seeing why that would be
> needed.Â  If there is a dialog (outside of the service function chain
> itseslf) among the instances, then something much more complex is going on.
> 
> If we really need to represent it, we can presumably do so in the
> abstract service topology.
> 
> Yours,
> Joel
> 
> On 5/7/2021 10:10 AM, Igor Bryskin wrote:
>  > Hi Joel,
>  >
>  > As far as I can tell, the client should not be trying to control the
>  > details of which instance is used to fill the service function
>  > requirements.
>  > IB>> But is not possible that inÂ  the chain:
>  > AccessPoint 1 -> SF1->SF2->...-> AccessPoint2
>  >Â  Â the client cares about SF1->SF2 delay more thanÂ  about AccessPoint1 to
>  > AccessPoint2 delay ?
>  >
>  >Â  Â  Â  Â  Constraints like "stay out of a certain country", or
>  > "stay within a given country" would be expressed in terms of the
>  > properties the slice is to meet (service level expectations).Â  Not by
>  > controlling particular aspects of the service.
>  >
>  > IB>> What if I want to stay away, say, from a particular DC? Would it be
>  > easier and more flexible to express such exclusions/inclusions in terms
>  > of an abstract topology nodes representing countries, DCs, internal
>  > networks, etc.?
>  >
>  > Igor
>  >
>  >
>  > On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 11:14:07 PM EDT, Shunsuke Homma
>  > <shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com 
> <mailto:shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>  >
>  >
>  > Hi,
>  >
>  > Firstly, I also follow the WG consensus, and Iâ€™m ok to use â€œcustomerâ€ if
>  > WG prefers it.
>  >
>  > I assume there are mainly two types of use cases on (IETF) network 
> slices:
>  > 1. Providing slices to externals(customers) as a network service
>  > 2. Operating some internal network resources with the same slice system
>  > with case1
>  >
>  > As far as I read other comments on the terms, most of people seem to
>  > focuses on use cases where IETF network slices are provided as a type of
>  > network services (i.g., case1), and Iâ€™d like to confirm if case2 is also
>  > in our scope and â€œcustomerâ€ can cover both cases. (I personally want to
>  > avoid using different terms depending on assumed use cases).
>  >
>  >
>  > Btw, I agree with that slice management would be important, and weâ€™ll
>  > need to clarify what â€œcustomersâ€ and â€œprovidersâ€ can do on slice
>  > managements. In my memory, the NS-DTâ€™s study was started with an
>  > assumption that resources should be abstracted from several reasons,
>  > such as usability, scalability, security, etc. In this assumption, in my
>  > understanding, who controls network resources will be always slice
>  > provider (i.e., the owner of NSC). In other words, customers never
>  > manage resources structuring a slice directly, and a customer will send
>  > a service request to a slice provider/NSC when he/she wants to
>  > create/change/delete a slice. (I think this is fit to operation models
>  > considered in other SDOs such as TMF.)
>  >
>  >
>  > What can be done via service request will depend on design of slice
>  > service, and the current definition part provides just minimal sets of
>  > selectable parameters as SLOs. More details are provided in NBI drafts.
>  >
>  >
>  > Regards,
>  >
>  >
>  > Shunsuke
>  >
>  >
>  > 2021å¹´5æœˆ6æ—¥(æœ¨) 20:53 Oscar GonzÃ¡lez de Dios
>  > <oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com 
> <mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>
>  > <mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com 
> <mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>>>:
>  >
>  >Â  Â  Hi Adrian,
>  >
>  >Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  I think what is really relevant is to have a clear
>  >Â  Â  definition on the chosen term to avoid misunderstandings.
>  >Â  Â  Unfortunately today customer/consumer/client are used also in other
>  >Â  Â  contexts that might bring extra implications.
>  >
>  >Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Said that, I am fine with the term customer. There are
>  >Â  Â  still a couple of places in the document where the term "service
>  >Â  Â  customer" is used. Please change those to "IETF Network Slice
>  >Â  Â  customer" to be coherent.
>  >
>  >Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  One argument in favor of the term customer is that the
>  >Â  Â  "IETF Network slice customer" makes use of the slice to fulfill its
>  >Â  Â  needs (can be carry the traffic from a to b with a set of SLOs) and
>  >Â  Â  manage the granted slice (that is, it can rearrange the resources it
>  >Â  Â  is allowed to).Â  The term consumer misses the management part, which
>  >Â  Â  is a key differentiator of a slice.
>  >
>  >Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  In the definition of customer, Can we just say: " A
>  >Â  Â  customer may manage the granted IETF Network Slice.
>  >
>  >Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Also, I'd like to clarify between the management of the
>  >Â  Â  IETF Network slice that the customer can do and the management the
>  >Â  Â  provider can do. The customer can "play" within the allocated
>  >Â  Â  resources, but may have some limitations. One question, the ability
>  >Â  Â  to manage the slice, is part of an SLO? Or should be defined
>  >Â  Â  separately with a different term? It would be interesting to have
>  >Â  Â  the possibility to indicate what the slice customer can manage and
>  >Â  Â  what not...
>  >
>  >Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  I support moving earlier in the document the definition of
>  >Â  Â  the IETF Network Slice Customer and, also, add a definition for the
>  >Â  Â  IETF Network Slice Provider (although only "provider" is used
>  >Â  Â  thought the text).
>  >
>  >Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Best Regards,
>  >
>  >Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Oscar
>  >
>  >
>  >Â  Â  -----Mensaje original-----
>  >Â  Â  De: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org> 
> <mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>>> En
>  >Â  Â  nombre de Loa Andersson
>  >Â  Â  Enviado el: jueves, 6 de mayo de 2021 9:31
>  >Â  Â  Para: adrian@olddog.co.uk <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk> 
> <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>>;
>  > mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> 
> <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>>;
>  > teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org> <mailto:teas@ietf.org 
> <mailto:teas@ietf.org>>
>  >Â  Â  Asunto: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with
>  >Â  Â  draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
>  >
>  >Â  Â  Adrian,
>  >
>  >Â  Â  That is acceptable.
>  >
>  >Â  Â  As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a
>  >Â  Â  definitions section. I don't know if we can we place something in
>  >Â  Â  Section "2.Â  Terms and Abbreviations", but there seems to be only
>  >Â  Â  abbreviations.
>  >
>  >Â  Â  Your wholesale example:
>  >
>  >Â  Â  I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
>  >Â  Â  buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
>  >Â  Â  school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food
>  >Â  Â  as the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
>  >Â  Â  cook, signed by the bursar.
>  >
>  >Â  Â  I think "the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context.
>  >Â  Â  The cook and the school kids could be viewed as consumers", one
>  >Â  Â  removed from the system.
>  >
>  >Â  Â  It strikes me that "Customer System" and "IETF Slice" are somewhat
>  >Â  Â  similar, the risk is that we talk about "customer" (even if we
>  >Â  Â  change it), and "slice" (even though if is really "IETF Slice)",
>  >
>  >Â  Â  Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I
>  >Â  Â  think we have a enough support to use "customer".
>  >
>  >Â  Â  I rest my case.
>  >
>  >Â  Â  /Loa
>  >
>  >
>  >Â  Â  On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:
>  >Â  Â  Â  > We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the
>  >Â  Â  Â  > document)
>  >Â  Â  Â  >
>  >Â  Â  Â  >Â  Â  Â Customer:Â  A customer is the requester of an IETF Network 
> Slice.
>  >Â  Â  Â  >Â  Â  Â  Â  Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.Â  A customer may
>  >Â  Â  manage
>  >Â  Â  Â  >Â  Â  Â  Â  the IETF Network Slice service directly by interfacing
>  >Â  Â  with the
>  >Â  Â  Â  >Â  Â  Â  Â  IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator.
>  >Â  Â  Â  >
>  >Â  Â  Â  > We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise
>  >Â  Â  Â  > network or a network operator, an individual working at such an
>  >Â  Â  Â  > entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an
>  >Â  Â  Â  > application or software component."
>  >Â  Â  Â  >
>  >Â  Â  Â  > Cheers,
>  >Â  Â  Â  > Adrian
>  >Â  Â  Â  >
>  >Â  Â  Â  > -----Original Message-----
>  >Â  Â  Â  > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com 
> <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
>  >Â  Â  <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com 
> <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>> <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com 
> <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
>  >Â  Â  <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com 
> <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>>>
>  >Â  Â  Â  > Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
>  >Â  Â  Â  > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk> 
> <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>>; 'Loa
>  >Â  Â  Andersson' <loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu> <mailto:loa@pi.nu 
> <mailto:loa@pi.nu>>>; teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>
>  >Â  Â  <mailto:teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>>
>  >Â  Â  Â  > Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with
>  >Â  Â  Â  > draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
>  >Â  Â  Â  >
>  >Â  Â  Â  > Hi all,
>  >Â  Â  Â  >
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>  >Â  Â  Â  >
>  >Â  Â  Â  > I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is 
> generic
>  >Â  Â  Â  > enough to denote a role/entity.
>  >Â  Â  Â  >
>  >Â  Â  Â  > Thanks.
>  >Â  Â  Â  >
>  >Â  Â  Â  > Cheers,
>  >Â  Â  Â  > Med
>  >Â  Â  Â  >
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> -----Message d'origine-----
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org 
> <mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>
>  >Â  Â  <mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>>] De 
> la part de Adrian Farrel
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> EnvoyÃ© : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 Ã€ : 'Loa Andersson'
>  >Â  Â  <loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu> <mailto:loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu>>>;
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org> <mailto:teas@ietf.org 
> <mailto:teas@ietf.org>> Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving
>  >Â  Â  forward with
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> Hi Loa,
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>> On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>>
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>>>Â  Â  c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> only need to
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>>>Â  Â  Â  Â  Â use one term). I selected "Customer" because that 
> seemed
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> best, but I
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>>>Â  Â  Â  Â  Â know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss 
> if you
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> are not
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>>>Â  Â  Â  Â  Â happy.
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>>
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>> If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer 
> customer.
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>> I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> It's never too late to bring things up.
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>> But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>> indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> walks
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>> inte to your
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>> shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> your shop).
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the 
> school that
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the
>  >Â  Â  food as
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> cook, signed by the bursar.
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>> IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and 
> HW, but
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> we
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>> don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>>
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>> I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer 
> system" may
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> become tiresome to read.
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> Cheers,
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> Adrian
>  >Â  Â  Â  >>
>  >Â  Â  Â  >> _______________________________________________
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>  >Â  Â  Loa AnderssonÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  email: loa@pi.nu 
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From: Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>, =?Windows-1252?Q?Oscar_Gonz=E1lez_de_Dios?= <oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Hi John/all,

>> Comments inline.  In general, much like VPNs, the customer doesn=92t hav=
e visibility into the provider=92s network.
[TS]: a customer may want to have a say in defining a policy on top of the =
route that a NS connection can take. In absence of a common language to exp=
ress such (inclusion/exclusion) policy/intent, does it suffice to express t=
his in terms of geographies (GPS locations, countries, cities, roads), srlg=
s (srlgs may not have global meaning), diversity needs (from other connecti=
ons), etc.? Alternatively, does it help if the NBI request expresses such i=
nclusions/exclusions policy using/referencing a =93customer-centric=94 topo=
logy that a provider may have furnished earlier to the customer, and which =
the provider can readily map to their network?

Regards,
Tarek


On 5/6/21, 12:56 PM, "Teas" <teas-bounces@ietf.org> wrote:


Hi,

Comments inline.  In general, much like VPNs, the customer doesn=92t have v=
isibility into the provider=92s network.

Yours Irrespectively,

John



Juniper Business Use Only
From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin=3D40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 12:39 PM
To: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>; Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>; adrian@o=
lddog.co.uk; mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; teas@ietf.org; Oscar Gonz=E1lez =
de Dios <oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>; John E Drake <jdrake@juniper=
.net>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

Thanks John,

But wouldn't the client want to constrain the connectivity for a given link=
 in the specified SFC, say, to be more stringent than end-to-end (perhaps b=
y a separate set of SLOs)?

[JD]  I have no idea.  One of the reasons why we haven=92t yet included SFC=
s is that we have no idea what are the requirements for it.

Also, could the client have a say on location of SFs? For example, can it i=
nstruct to avoid a country or DC?

[JD]  This is already handled with Service Level Expectations (SLEs), which=
 have been added to the framework draft.

Igor

On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 11:48:22 AM EDT, John E Drake <jdrake=3D40juniper=
.net@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:jdrake=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:



Igor,



Given the IETF Network Slice Service definition that Eric and I proposed, I=
 think we could add an SFC definition to the SLO definition for each sender=
 to a given connectivity construct.  It would indicate that a packet from t=
hat sender to each receiver would pass through the specified SFC before bei=
ng received.  This is consistent with  what is described in:  https://datat=
racker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-nsh-bgp-control-plane-18<https://u=
rldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-nsh=
-bgp-control-plane-18__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!UiAW41P7JKVUF0vjIvj-fdWXz4tdgy1TQsJvF=
gOakNad0SkwwCcGftg70olRfow$>.



Yours Irrespectively,



John





Juniper Business Use Only

From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf =
Of Igor Bryskin
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 10:26 AM
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu<mailto:loa@pi.nu>>; adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto=
:adrian@olddog.co.uk>; mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadai=
r@orange.com>; teas@ietf.org<mailto:teas@ietf.org>; Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dio=
s <oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com<mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefoni=
ca.com>>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices



[External Email. Be cautious of content]



Hi Adrian,



I probably missed the discussion, but how do we reconcile  two IETF stories=
 - network slicing and SFCs? Surely, at some point a network slice client w=
ill ask the provider not just only to deliver its traffic from A to B with =
delay no worse than D, but also to do something else with the data (e.g. DP=
I). On the other hand, when we talk about SFCs we cannot assume I think any=
 longer the context of a physical (not sliced) network. I do not suppose we=
 can simply mandate the SF placement at network slice end points or somewhe=
re outside network slices - this approach would probably not scale well.



So, the question is how SFs relate to network slices, in particular, to the=
ir SLAs, SLOs and topologies?



Thanks,

Igor



On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 07:53:32 AM EDT, Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios <oscar.=
gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com<mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>> =
wrote:





Hi Adrian,

        I think what is really relevant is to have a clear definition on th=
e chosen term to avoid misunderstandings. Unfortunately today customer/cons=
umer/client are used also in other contexts that might bring extra implicat=
ions.

          Said that, I am fine with the term customer. There are still a co=
uple of places in the document where the term "service customer" is used. P=
lease change those to "IETF Network Slice customer" to be coherent.

        One argument in favor of the term customer is that the "IETF Networ=
k slice customer" makes use of the slice to fulfill its needs (can be carry=
 the traffic from a to b with a set of SLOs) and manage the granted slice (=
that is, it can rearrange the resources it is allowed to).  The term consum=
er misses the management part, which is a key differentiator of a slice.

        In the definition of customer, Can we just say: " A customer may ma=
nage the granted IETF Network Slice.

        Also, I'd like to clarify between the management of the IETF Networ=
k slice that the customer can do and the management the provider can do. Th=
e customer can "play" within the allocated resources, but may have some lim=
itations. One question, the ability to manage the slice, is part of an SLO?=
 Or should be defined separately with a different term? It would be interes=
ting to have the possibility to indicate what the slice customer can manage=
 and what not...

        I support moving earlier in the document the definition of the IETF=
 Network Slice Customer and, also, add a definition for the IETF Network Sl=
ice Provider (although only "provider" is used thought the text).

        Best Regards,

                Oscar


-----Mensaje original-----
De: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>> En nombre de=
 Loa Andersson
Enviado el: jueves, 6 de mayo de 2021 9:31
Para: adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>; mohamed.boucadair@or=
ange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>; teas@ietf.org<mailto:teas@ie=
tf.org>
Asunto: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices

Adrian,

That is acceptable.

As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions sec=
tion. I don't know if we can we place something in Section "2.  Terms and A=
bbreviations", but there seems to be only abbreviations.

Your wholesale example:

I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that buys f=
ood at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school the cust=
omer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the customer? The co=
ntract is with the school, negotiated by the cook, signed by the bursar.

I think "the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The cook=
 and the school kids could be viewed as consumers", one removed from the sy=
stem.

It strikes me that "Customer System" and "IETF Slice" are somewhat similar,=
 the risk is that we talk about "customer" (even if we change it), and "sli=
ce" (even though if is really "IETF Slice)",

Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I think we ha=
ve a enough support to use "customer".

I rest my case.

/Loa


On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the
> document)
>
>    Customer:  A customer is the requester of an IETF Network Slice.
>        Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.  A customer may manage
>        the IETF Network Slice service directly by interfacing with the
>        IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator.
>
> We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise
> network or a network operator, an individual working at such an
> entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an
> application or software component."
>
> Cheers,
> Adrian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> <=
mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>>
> Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>; 'Loa Andersson' <loa=
@pi.nu<mailto:loa@pi.nu>>; teas@ietf.org<mailto:teas@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with
> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
>
> Hi all,
>
>> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>
> I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic
> enough to denote a role/entity.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Cheers,
> Med
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>] D=
e la part de Adrian Farrel
>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C0 : 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu<ma=
ilto:loa@pi.nu>>;
>> teas@ietf.org<mailto:teas@ietf.org> Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward wi=
th
>> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices
>>
>> Hi Loa,
>>
>>> On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
>>>
>>>>    c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we
>> only need to
>>>>        use one term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed
>> best, but I
>>>>        know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you
>> are not
>>>>        happy.
>>>
>>> If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.
>>
>> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
>>
>>> I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
>>
>> It's never too late to bring things up.
>>
>>> But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
>>> indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
>> walks
>>> inte to your
>>> shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
>> your shop).
>>
>> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
>> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
>> school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as
>> the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
>> cook, signed by the bursar.
>>
>>> IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but
>> we
>>> don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
>>>
>>> I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
>>
>> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
>> instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may
>> become tiresome to read.
>>
>> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Adrian
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Teas mailing list
>> Teas@ietf.org<mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas<https://urldefense.com/v3/__h=
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>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ______ _____________________________________________
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--

Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu<mailto:loa@pi.nu>
Senior MPLS Expert                          loa.pi.nu@gmail.com<mailto:loa.=
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Bronze Dragon Consulting            phone: +46 739 81 21 64

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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:brea=
k-word">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Hi John/all,<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt">&gt;&gt; </span>
Comments inline.&nbsp; In general, much like VPNs, the customer doesn=92t h=
ave visibility into the provider=92s network.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">[TS]: a customer ma=
y want to have a say in defining a policy on top of the route that a NS con=
nection can take. In absence of a common language to express such (inclusio=
n/exclusion) policy/intent, does it
 suffice to express this in terms of geographies (GPS locations, countries,=
 cities, roads), srlgs (srlgs may not have global meaning), diversity needs=
 (from other connections), etc.? Alternatively, does it help if the NBI req=
uest expresses such inclusions/exclusions
 policy using/referencing a =93customer-centric=94 topology that a provider=
 may have furnished earlier to the customer, and which the provider can rea=
dily map to their network?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Regards,<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Tarek<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">On 5/6/21, 12:56 PM, &quo=
t;Teas&quot; &lt;teas-bounces@ietf.org&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Comments inline.&nbsp; In=
 general, much like VPNs, the customer doesn=92t have visibility into the p=
rovider=92s network.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Yours Irrespectively,<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">John<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"mso-margin-top-al=
t:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;text-align:center=
">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b>From:</b> Igor Bryskin=
 &lt;i_bryskin=3D40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 6, 2021 12:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Igor Bryskin &lt;i_bryskin@yahoo.com&gt;; Loa Andersson &lt;loa@=
pi.nu&gt;; adrian@olddog.co.uk; mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; teas@ietf.org=
; Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios &lt;oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com&gt;; Joh=
n E Drake &lt;jdrake@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network=
-slices<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;line-height:12.0pt;backgro=
und:#FFEB9C">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Lato&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]</span></b><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Thanks John,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">But wouldn't the client want to constrain the=
 connectivity for a given link in the specified SFC, say, to be more string=
ent than end-to-end (perhaps by a separate
 set of SLOs)?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><i>&nbsp;</i></b><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><i>[JD]&nbsp; I have n=
o idea.&nbsp; One of the reasons why we haven=92t yet included SFCs is that=
 we have no idea what are the requirements for it.</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Also, could the client have a say on location=
 of SFs? For example, can it instruct to avoid a country or DC?</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><i>&nbsp;</i></b><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><i>[JD]&nbsp; This is =
already handled with Service Level Expectations (SLEs), which have been add=
ed to the framework draft.
</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Igor</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"yahoo_quoted_0889437462">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#26282A">On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 11:48=
:22 AM EDT, John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake=3D40juniper.net@dmarc=
.ietf.org">jdrake=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;
 wrote: </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#26282A">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#26282A">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div id=3D"yiv6988404160">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#26282A">Igor,</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#26282A">&nbsp;</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#26282A">Given the IETF Ne=
twork Slice Service definition that Eric and I proposed, I think we could a=
dd an SFC definition to the SLO definition
 for each sender to a given connectivity construct.&nbsp; It would indicate=
 that a packet from that sender to each receiver would pass through the spe=
cified SFC before being received.&nbsp; This is consistent with &nbsp;what =
is described in:&nbsp;
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html=
/draft-ietf-bess-nsh-bgp-control-plane-18__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!UiAW41P7JKVUF0vjI=
vj-fdWXz4tdgy1TQsJvFgOakNad0SkwwCcGftg70olRfow$" target=3D"_blank">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-nsh-bgp-control-plane=
-18</a>.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#26282A">&nbsp;</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#26282A">Yours Irrespectiv=
ely,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#26282A">&nbsp;</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#26282A">John</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#26282A">&nbsp;</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#26282A">&nbsp;</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"mso-=
margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;text=
-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juniper B=
usiness Use Only</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div id=3D"yiv6988404160yqt43370">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#26282A">From:</span></b=
><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#26282A"> Teas=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Igor Bryskin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 6, 2021 10:26 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Loa Andersson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;=
; <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">
adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mo=
hamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a>; Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dio=
s &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com">oscar.gonzalez=
dedios@telefonica.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network=
-slices</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#26282A">&nbsp;</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;line-height:1=
2.0pt;background:#FFEB9C">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif=
;color:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]</span></b><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#26282A">&nbsp;</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A=
">Hi Adrian,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A=
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A=
">I probably missed the discussion, but how do we reconcile&nbsp; two IETF =
stories - network slicing and SFCs? Surely, at some point
 a network slice client will ask the provider not just only to deliver its =
traffic from A to B with delay no worse than D, but also to do something el=
se with the data (e.g. DPI). On the other hand, when we talk about SFCs we =
cannot assume I think any longer
 the context of a physical (not sliced) network. I do not suppose we can si=
mply mandate the SF placement at network slice end points or somewhere outs=
ide network slices - this approach would probably not scale well.&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A=
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A=
">So, the question is how SFs relate to network slices, in particular, to t=
heir SLAs, SLOs and topologies?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A=
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A=
">Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A=
">Igor</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A=
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"yiv6988404160yahoo_quoted_0787303809">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A=
">On Thursday, May 6, 2021, 07:53:32 AM EDT, Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com" target=3D"_blank">osc=
ar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com</a>&gt;
 wrote: </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A=
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A=
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv6988404160msonormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#26282A=
">Hi Adrian,<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I think what is really relevant is to have a cl=
ear definition on the chosen term to avoid misunderstandings. Unfortunately=
 today customer/consumer/client are used also in other contexts that might =
bring extra implications.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Said that, I am fine with the term custo=
mer. There are still a couple of places in the document where the term &quo=
t;service customer&quot; is used. Please change those to &quot;IETF Network=
 Slice customer&quot; to be coherent.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; One argument in favor of the term customer is t=
hat the &quot;IETF Network slice customer&quot; makes use of the slice to f=
ulfill its needs (can be carry the traffic from a to b with a set of SLOs) =
and manage the granted slice (that is, it can rearrange the resources
 it is allowed to).&nbsp; The term consumer misses the management part, whi=
ch is a key differentiator of a slice.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In the definition of customer, Can we just say:=
 &quot; A customer may manage the granted IETF Network Slice.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Also, I'd like to clarify between the managemen=
t of the IETF Network slice that the customer can do and the management the=
 provider can do. The customer can &quot;play&quot; within the allocated re=
sources, but may have some limitations. One question, the ability
 to manage the slice, is part of an SLO? Or should be defined separately wi=
th a different term? It would be interesting to have the possibility to ind=
icate what the slice customer can manage and what not...<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I support moving earlier in the document the de=
finition of the IETF Network Slice Customer and, also, add a definition for=
 the IETF Network Slice Provider (although only &quot;provider&quot; is use=
d thought the text).<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Best Regards,<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Oscar<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Mensaje original-----<br>
De: Teas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">tea=
s-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; En nombre de Loa Andersson<br>
Enviado el: jueves, 6 de mayo de 2021 9:31<br>
Para: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddo=
g.co.uk</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.b=
oucadair@orange.com</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</a><br>
Asunto: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices<=
br>
<br>
Adrian,<br>
<br>
That is acceptable.<br>
<br>
As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions sec=
tion. I don't know if we can we place something in Section &quot;2.&nbsp; T=
erms and Abbreviations&quot;, but there seems to be only abbreviations.<br>
<br>
Your wholesale example:<br>
<br>
I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that buys f=
ood at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school the cust=
omer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the customer? The co=
ntract is with the school, negotiated
 by the cook, signed by the bursar.<br>
<br>
I think &quot;the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The=
 cook and the school kids could be viewed as consumers&quot;, one removed f=
rom the system.<br>
<br>
It strikes me that &quot;Customer System&quot; and &quot;IETF Slice&quot; a=
re somewhat similar, the risk is that we talk about &quot;customer&quot; (e=
ven if we change it), and &quot;slice&quot; (even though if is really &quot=
;IETF Slice)&quot;,<br>
<br>
Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I think we ha=
ve a enough support to use &quot;customer&quot;.<br>
<br>
I rest my case.<br>
<br>
/Loa<br>
<br>
<br>
On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:<br>
&gt; We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the<br>
&gt; document)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Customer:&nbsp; A customer is the requester of an IETF Ne=
twork Slice.<br>
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.&n=
bsp; A customer may manage<br>
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the IETF Network Slice service directly by =
interfacing with the<br>
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestra=
tor.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; We could add &quot;A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise<b=
r>
&gt; network or a network operator, an individual working at such an<br>
&gt; entity, a private individual contracting for a service, or an<br>
&gt; application or software component.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; Adrian<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank=
">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@=
orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@ol=
ddog.co.uk</a>; 'Loa Andersson' &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"=
_blank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I would simply use &quot;customer&quot; and make sure the definition i=
s generic<br>
&gt; enough to denote a role/entity.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; Med<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -----Message d'origine-----<br>
&gt;&gt; De : Teas [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Adrian Farrel<br>
&gt;&gt; Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59 =C0 : 'Loa Andersson' &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</=
a> Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with<br>
&gt;&gt; draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network- slices<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Loa,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; c. &quot;Consumer&quot; vs &quot;customer&quo=
t;. I have made this consistent (we<br>
&gt;&gt; only need to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; use one term). I selected &quot=
;Customer&quot; because that seemed<br>
&gt;&gt; best, but I<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; know some people prefer &quot;c=
onsumer&quot;. Please discuss if you<br>
&gt;&gt; are not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; happy.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer custo=
mer.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; OK. So I made an improvement, but...<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; It's never too late to bring things up.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; indication that that that a customer is a person (a person tha=
t<br>
&gt;&gt; walks<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; inte to your<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought a=
t<br>
&gt;&gt; your shop).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school th=
at<br>
&gt;&gt; buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the<=
br>
&gt;&gt; school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food=
 as<br>
&gt;&gt; the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; cook, signed by the bursar.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; IETF specifies &quot;systems&quot;, including what goes into S=
W and HW, but<br>
&gt;&gt; we<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; don't specify normative rules for human behavior.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73<br>
&gt;&gt; instances of &quot;customer&quot; in the document, and &quot;custo=
mer system&quot; may<br>
&gt;&gt; become tiresome to read.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt; Adrian<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; Teas mailing list<br>
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<br>
--<br>
<br>
Loa Andersson&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; email: <a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank"=
>
loa@pi.nu</a><br>
Senior MPLS Expert&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href=3D"mailto:loa.pi.nu@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">
loa.pi.nu@gmail.com</a><br>
Bronze Dragon Consulting&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; phone: +4=
6 739 81 21 64<br>
<br>
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References: <037401d740c5$70a9cc30$51fd6490$@olddog.co.uk> <3ea262cf-e4c0-5ec0-9736-aedaf6d5d4d8@pi.nu> <009401d74195$41fd70a0$c5f851e0$@olddog.co.uk> <9933_1620212302_60927A4E_9933_344_1_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933035376DFA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <00a001d7419e$99e5a040$cdb0e0c0$@olddog.co.uk> <03cf404d-59a7-0ec5-e18f-0a98bf638c0f@pi.nu>
In-Reply-To: <03cf404d-59a7-0ec5-e18f-0a98bf638c0f@pi.nu>
From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 12:55:16 -0700
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmXoVT6z-tMEZdVoRVRzFp9gR5Ch2Ge_YQACJDUes6ja0w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
Cc: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Med Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/FMUoOMGDmMJ4pM668cfVTuiEX-g>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Hi,
I agree with Loa, moving the definition of how the term "customer" is
interpreted in the document to the Terms and Abbreviations section seems
very reasonable. Perhaps the section can include two sub-sections -
Abbreviations/Acronyms and Terms/Terminology. I've noticed that there is
the forward reference in the section:
   The above terminology is defined in greater details in the remainder
   of this document.
It could be those other definitions of terms used in the specific context
in the document be collected in the new sub-section.

Regards,
Greg


On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 12:32 AM Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu> wrote:

> Adrian,
>
> That is acceptable.
>
> As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions
> section. I don't know if we can we place something in Section "2.  Terms
> and Abbreviations", but there seems to be only abbreviations.
>
> Your wholesale example:
>
> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school
> the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the
> customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the cook,
> signed by the bursar.
>
> I think "the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The
> cook and the school kids could be viewed as consumers", one removed from
> the system.
>
> It strikes me that "Customer System" and "IETF Slice" are somewhat
> similar, the risk is that we talk about "customer" (even if we change
> it), and "slice" (even though if is really "IETF Slice)",
>
> Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I think we
> have a enough support to use "customer".
>
> I rest my case.
>
> /Loa
>
>
> On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> > We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the
> document)
> >
> >     Customer:  A customer is the requester of an IETF Network Slice.
> >        Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.  A customer may manage
> >        the IETF Network Slice service directly by interfacing with the
> >        IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator.
> >
> > We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise network
> or a
> > network operator, an individual working at such an entity, a private
> > individual contracting for a service, or an application or software
> > component."
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Adrian
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> > Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
> > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>; teas@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with
> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> >> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
> >
> > I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic
> enough
> > to denote a role/entity.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Med
> >
> >> -----Message d'origine-----
> >> De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel
> >> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59
> >> =C3=80 : 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>; teas@ietf.org
> >> Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-
> >> slices
> >>
> >> Hi Loa,
> >>
> >>> On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
> >>>
> >>>>    c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we
> >> only need to
> >>>>         use one term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed
> >> best, but I
> >>>>         know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you
> >> are not
> >>>>         happy.
> >>>
> >>> If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.
> >>
> >> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
> >>
> >>> I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
> >>
> >> It's never too late to bring things up.
> >>
> >>> But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
> >>> indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
> >> walks
> >>> inte to your
> >>> shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
> >> your shop).
> >>
> >> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
> >> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
> >> school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as
> >> the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
> >> cook, signed by the bursar.
> >>
> >>> IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but
> >> we
> >>> don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
> >>>
> >>> I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
> >>
> >> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
> >> instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may
> >> become tiresome to read.
> >>
> >> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Adrian
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Teas mailing list
> >> Teas@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
> >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________________=
___
> > _____________________________________________
> >
> > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
> > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez
> recu
> > ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les message=
s
> > electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme
> ou
> > falsifie. Merci.
> >
> > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged
> > information that may be protected by law;
> > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and
> > delete this message and its attachments.
> > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have
> been
> > modified, changed or falsified.
> > Thank you.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Teas mailing list
> > Teas@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
> >
>
> --
>
> Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
> Senior MPLS Expert                          loa.pi.nu@gmail.com
> Bronze Dragon Consulting             phone: +46 739 81 21 64
>
> _______________________________________________
> Teas mailing list
> Teas@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>

--000000000000266abb05c1c2cf2c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div>I agree with Loa, moving the definition of how the=
 term &quot;customer&quot; is interpreted=C2=A0in the document to the Terms=
 and Abbreviations section seems very reasonable. Perhaps=C2=A0the section =
can include two sub-sections - Abbreviations/Acronyms and Terms/Terminology=
. I&#39;ve noticed that there is the forward reference in the section:</div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The above terminology is defined in greater details in t=
he remainder<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0of this document.<br></div><div>It could be th=
ose other definitions of terms used in the specific context in the document=
 be collected in the new sub-section.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</di=
v><div>Greg</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 12:32 AM Loa Anderss=
on &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Adrian,<br>
<br>
That is acceptable.<br>
<br>
As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions <br=
>
section. I don&#39;t know if we can we place something in Section &quot;2.=
=C2=A0 Terms <br>
and Abbreviations&quot;, but there seems to be only abbreviations.<br>
<br>
Your wholesale example:<br>
<br>
I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that <br>
buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school <b=
r>
the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the <br>
customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the cook, <br>
signed by the bursar.<br>
<br>
I think &quot;the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The=
 <br>
cook and the school kids could be viewed as consumers&quot;, one removed fr=
om <br>
the system.<br>
<br>
It strikes me that &quot;Customer System&quot; and &quot;IETF Slice&quot; a=
re somewhat <br>
similar, the risk is that we talk about &quot;customer&quot; (even if we ch=
ange <br>
it), and &quot;slice&quot; (even though if is really &quot;IETF Slice)&quot=
;,<br>
<br>
Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I think we <b=
r>
have a enough support to use &quot;customer&quot;.<br>
<br>
I rest my case.<br>
<br>
/Loa<br>
<br>
<br>
On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:<br>
&gt; We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the docu=
ment)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Customer:=C2=A0 A customer is the requester of an I=
ETF Network Slice.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.=
=C2=A0 A customer may manage<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the IETF Network Slice service directly by =
interfacing with the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestra=
tor.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; We could add &quot;A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise n=
etwork or a<br>
&gt; network operator, an individual working at such an entity, a private<b=
r>
&gt; individual contracting for a service, or an application or software<br=
>
&gt; component.&quot;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; Adrian<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank=
">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@=
orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@ol=
ddog.co.uk</a>; &#39;Loa Andersson&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-s=
lices<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi all,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I would simply use &quot;customer&quot; and make sure the definition i=
s generic enough<br>
&gt; to denote a role/entity.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; Med<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; -----Message d&#39;origine-----<br>
&gt;&gt; De=C2=A0: Teas [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Adrian Farrel<br>
&gt;&gt; Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59<br>
&gt;&gt; =C3=80=C2=A0: &#39;Loa Andersson&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi=
.nu" target=3D"_blank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; Objet=C2=A0: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-n=
etwork-<br>
&gt;&gt; slices<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Loa,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 c. &quot;Consumer&quot; vs &quot;customer&quo=
t;. I have made this consistent (we<br>
&gt;&gt; only need to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0use one term). I selected=
 &quot;Customer&quot; because that seemed<br>
&gt;&gt; best, but I<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0know some people prefer &=
quot;consumer&quot;. Please discuss if you<br>
&gt;&gt; are not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0happy.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer custo=
mer.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; OK. So I made an improvement, but...<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I don&#39;t know if it is too late to bring this up.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; It&#39;s never too late to bring things up.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; But I really don&#39;t like either, normal language has a stro=
ng<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; indication that that that a customer is a person (a person tha=
t<br>
&gt;&gt; walks<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; inte to your<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought a=
t<br>
&gt;&gt; your shop).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school th=
at<br>
&gt;&gt; buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the<=
br>
&gt;&gt; school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food=
 as<br>
&gt;&gt; the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; cook, signed by the bursar.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; IETF specifies &quot;systems&quot;, including what goes into S=
W and HW, but<br>
&gt;&gt; we<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; don&#39;t specify normative rules for human behavior.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I don&#39;t know if we can talk about Customer System?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I&#39;m afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73<=
br>
&gt;&gt; instances of &quot;customer&quot; in the document, and &quot;custo=
mer system&quot; may<br>
&gt;&gt; become tiresome to read.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt; Adrian<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; Teas mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.org</=
a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br=
>
&gt; <br>
&gt; ______________________________________________________________________=
______<br>
&gt; _____________________________________________<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations<br>
&gt; confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<br>
&gt; pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu<br>
&gt; ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<br>
&gt; a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les me=
ssages<br>
&gt; electroniques etant susceptibles d&#39;alteration,<br>
&gt; Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou<br>
&gt; falsifie. Merci.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d<br>
&gt; information that may be protected by law;<br>
&gt; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
br>
&gt; If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
<br>
&gt; delete this message and its attachments.<br>
&gt; As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been<br>
&gt; modified, changed or falsified.<br>
&gt; Thank you.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Teas mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Loa Andersson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: <a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank"=
>loa@pi.nu</a><br>
Senior MPLS Expert=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:loa.pi.nu@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">loa.pi.nu@gmail.com</a><br>
Bronze Dragon Consulting=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pho=
ne: +46 739 81 21 64<br>
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Subject: [Teas] New Liaison Statement, "LS on OTNT Standardization Work Plan Issue 29"
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Title: LS on OTNT Standardization Work Plan Issue 29
Submission Date: 2021-05-07
URL of the IETF Web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1738/
Please reply by 2021-11-01
From: Hiroshi Ota <hiroshi.ota@itu.int>
To: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>,Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>,Andy Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>,Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>,Vishnu Beeram <vbeeram@juniper.net>,Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>,Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>,Dhruv Dhody <dd@dhruvdhody.com>,Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>,Nicolai Leymann <n.leymann@telekom.de>,Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
Cc: Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@huawei.com>,Path Computation Element Discussion List <pce@ietf.org>,Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>,Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>,Common Control and Measurement Plane Discussion List <ccamp@ietf.org>,Pseudowire And LDP-enabled Services Discussion List <pals@ietf.org>,Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>,John Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>,Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>,Andy Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>,Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling Discussion List <teas@ietf.org>,Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>,John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>,Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>,Dhruv Dhody <dd@dhruvdhody.com>,Vishnu Beeram <vbeeram@juniper.net>,Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>,Scott Mansfield <Scott.Mansfield@Ericsson.com>,itu-t-liaison@iab.org <itu-t-liaison@iab.org>,Multiprotocol Label Switching Discussion List <mpls@ietf.org>,Nicolai Leymann <n.leymann@telekom.de>,Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
Response Contacts: sshew@ciena.com
Technical Contacts: 
Purpose: For action

Body: Attached is Issue 29 of the OTNT SWP, the latest version updated by the SG15 during a plenary meeting in April 2021.

We would appreciate updates to the material relevant to your SDO.

Attachment: Optical Transport Networks & Technologies Standardization Work Plan Issue 29, April 2021 (TD693/P)
Attachments:

    SG15-LS312-Att-2
    https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2021-05-07-itu-t-sg-15-mpls-ccamp-pce-pals-teas-ls-on-otnt-standardization-work-plan-issue-29-attachment-1.pdf

    SG15-LS312-Att-1
    https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2021-05-07-itu-t-sg-15-mpls-ccamp-pce-pals-teas-ls-on-otnt-standardization-work-plan-issue-29-attachment-2.pdf

    SG15-LS312
    https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2021-05-07-itu-t-sg-15-mpls-ccamp-pce-pals-teas-ls-on-otnt-standardization-work-plan-issue-29-attachment-3.pdf



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From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 21:54:59 -0400
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To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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I agree with Loa and am not crazy about either customer or consumer as
either refers to a =E2=80=9Chuman=E2=80=9D endpoint and not a system endpoi=
nt made of
hardware or software like the term =E2=80=9CCE=E2=80=9D.

+1 for Customer over Consumer as a customer is human endpoint that has paid
for service SLA where  a consumer is  broader term like subscriber
describing for example all broadband subscriber community.

On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:55 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> I agree with Loa, moving the definition of how the term "customer" is
> interpreted in the document to the Terms and Abbreviations section seems
> very reasonable. Perhaps the section can include two sub-sections -
> Abbreviations/Acronyms and Terms/Terminology. I've noticed that there is
> the forward reference in the section:
>    The above terminology is defined in greater details in the remainder
>    of this document.
> It could be those other definitions of terms used in the specific context
> in the document be collected in the new sub-section.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
>
> On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 12:32 AM Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu> wrote:
>
>> Adrian,
>>
>> That is acceptable.
>>
>> As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions
>> section. I don't know if we can we place something in Section "2.  Terms
>> and Abbreviations", but there seems to be only abbreviations.
>>
>> Your wholesale example:
>>
>> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
>> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school
>> the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the
>> customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the cook,
>> signed by the bursar.
>>
>> I think "the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The
>> cook and the school kids could be viewed as consumers", one removed from
>> the system.
>>
>> It strikes me that "Customer System" and "IETF Slice" are somewhat
>> similar, the risk is that we talk about "customer" (even if we change
>> it), and "slice" (even though if is really "IETF Slice)",
>>
>> Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I think we
>> have a enough support to use "customer".
>>
>> I rest my case.
>>
>> /Loa
>>
>>
>> On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:
>> > We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the
>> document)
>> >
>> >     Customer:  A customer is the requester of an IETF Network Slice.
>> >        Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.  A customer may manag=
e
>> >        the IETF Network Slice service directly by interfacing with the
>> >        IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator.
>> >
>> > We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise networ=
k
>> or a
>> > network operator, an individual working at such an entity, a private
>> > individual contracting for a service, or an application or software
>> > component."
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Adrian
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
>> > Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
>> > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>; teas@ietf.org
>> > Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with
>> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
>> >
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> >> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>> >
>> > I would simply use "customer" and make sure the definition is generic
>> enough
>> > to denote a role/entity.
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Med
>> >
>> >> -----Message d'origine-----
>> >> De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel
>> >> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59
>> >> =C3=80 : 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu>; teas@ietf.org
>> >> Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-
>> >> slices
>> >>
>> >> Hi Loa,
>> >>
>> >>> On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
>> >>>
>> >>>>    c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this consistent (we
>> >> only need to
>> >>>>         use one term). I selected "Customer" because that seemed
>> >> best, but I
>> >>>>         know some people prefer "consumer". Please discuss if you
>> >> are not
>> >>>>         happy.
>> >>>
>> >>> If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.
>> >>
>> >> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
>> >>
>> >>> I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
>> >>
>> >> It's never too late to bring things up.
>> >>
>> >>> But I really don't like either, normal language has a strong
>> >>> indication that that that a customer is a person (a person that
>> >> walks
>> >>> inte to your
>> >>> shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at
>> >> your shop).
>> >>
>> >> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that
>> >> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the
>> >> school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as
>> >> the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the
>> >> cook, signed by the bursar.
>> >>
>> >>> IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW and HW, but
>> >> we
>> >>> don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
>> >>
>> >> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73
>> >> instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer system" may
>> >> become tiresome to read.
>> >>
>> >> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>> >>
>> >> Cheers,
>> >> Adrian
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Teas mailing list
>> >> Teas@ietf.org
>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>> >
>> >
>> ________________________________________________________________________=
____
>> > _____________________________________________
>> >
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>> > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>> > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez
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>> > ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>> > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
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>> > electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
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>> > falsifie. Merci.
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>> > _______________________________________________
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>> >
>>
>> --
>>
>> Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
>> Senior MPLS Expert                          loa.pi.nu@gmail.com
>> Bronze Dragon Consulting             phone: +46 739 81 21 64
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Teas mailing list
>> Teas@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Teas mailing list
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>
--=20

<http://www.verizon.com/>

*Gyan Mishra*

*Network Solutions A**rchitect *

*Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>*



*M 301 502-1347*

--0000000000009da57005c1c7d548
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<div dir=3D"auto">I agree with Loa and am not crazy about either customer o=
r consumer as either refers to a =E2=80=9Chuman=E2=80=9D endpoint and not a=
 system endpoint made of hardware or software like the term =E2=80=9CCE=E2=
=80=9D. =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">+1 for Cu=
stomer over Consumer as a customer is human endpoint that has paid for serv=
ice SLA where =C2=A0a consumer is =C2=A0broader term like subscriber descri=
bing for example all broadband subscriber community.</div><div><br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, May 7, 202=
1 at 3:55 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregi=
mirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:s=
olid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
Hi,<div>I agree with Loa, moving the definition of how the term &quot;custo=
mer&quot; is interpreted=C2=A0in the document to the Terms and Abbreviation=
s section seems very reasonable. Perhaps=C2=A0the section can include two s=
ub-sections - Abbreviations/Acronyms and Terms/Terminology. I&#39;ve notice=
d that there is the forward reference in the section:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0The above terminology is defined in greater details in the remainder<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of this document.<br></div><div>It could be those other defini=
tions of terms used in the specific context in the document be collected in=
 the new sub-section.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div=
><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 12:32 AM Loa Andersson &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rg=
b(204,204,204)">Adrian,<br>
<br>
That is acceptable.<br>
<br>
As you said it is late in the document, and really not in a definitions <br=
>
section. I don&#39;t know if we can we place something in Section &quot;2.=
=C2=A0 Terms <br>
and Abbreviations&quot;, but there seems to be only abbreviations.<br>
<br>
Your wholesale example:<br>
<br>
I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that <br>
buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the school <b=
r>
the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as the <br>
customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the cook, <br>
signed by the bursar.<br>
<br>
I think &quot;the school! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The=
 <br>
cook and the school kids could be viewed as consumers&quot;, one removed fr=
om <br>
the system.<br>
<br>
It strikes me that &quot;Customer System&quot; and &quot;IETF Slice&quot; a=
re somewhat <br>
similar, the risk is that we talk about &quot;customer&quot; (even if we ch=
ange <br>
it), and &quot;slice&quot; (even though if is really &quot;IETF Slice)&quot=
;,<br>
<br>
Having said that, though it is not my task to call consensus, I think we <b=
r>
have a enough support to use &quot;customer&quot;.<br>
<br>
I rest my case.<br>
<br>
/Loa<br>
<br>
<br>
On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:<br>
&gt; We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the docu=
ment)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Customer:=C2=A0 A customer is the requester of an I=
ETF Network Slice.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.=
=C2=A0 A customer may manage<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the IETF Network Slice service directly by =
interfacing with the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestra=
tor.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; We could add &quot;A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise n=
etwork or a<br>
&gt; network operator, an individual working at such an entity, a private<b=
r>
&gt; individual contracting for a service, or an application or software<br=
>
&gt; component.&quot;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; Adrian<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank=
">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@=
orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@ol=
ddog.co.uk</a>; &#39;Loa Andersson&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-s=
lices<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi all,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I would simply use &quot;customer&quot; and make sure the definition i=
s generic enough<br>
&gt; to denote a role/entity.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; Med<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; -----Message d&#39;origine-----<br>
&gt;&gt; De=C2=A0: Teas [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Adrian Farrel<br>
&gt;&gt; Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59<br>
&gt;&gt; =C3=80=C2=A0: &#39;Loa Andersson&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi=
.nu" target=3D"_blank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; Objet=C2=A0: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-n=
etwork-<br>
&gt;&gt; slices<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Loa,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 c. &quot;Consumer&quot; vs &quot;customer&quo=
t;. I have made this consistent (we<br>
&gt;&gt; only need to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0use one term). I selected=
 &quot;Customer&quot; because that seemed<br>
&gt;&gt; best, but I<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0know some people prefer &=
quot;consumer&quot;. Please discuss if you<br>
&gt;&gt; are not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0happy.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer custo=
mer.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; OK. So I made an improvement, but...<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I don&#39;t know if it is too late to bring this up.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; It&#39;s never too late to bring things up.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; But I really don&#39;t like either, normal language has a stro=
ng<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; indication that that that a customer is a person (a person tha=
t<br>
&gt;&gt; walks<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; inte to your<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought a=
t<br>
&gt;&gt; your shop).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the school th=
at<br>
&gt;&gt; buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the<=
br>
&gt;&gt; school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food=
 as<br>
&gt;&gt; the customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; cook, signed by the bursar.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; IETF specifies &quot;systems&quot;, including what goes into S=
W and HW, but<br>
&gt;&gt; we<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; don&#39;t specify normative rules for human behavior.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I don&#39;t know if we can talk about Customer System?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I&#39;m afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73<=
br>
&gt;&gt; instances of &quot;customer&quot; in the document, and &quot;custo=
mer system&quot; may<br>
&gt;&gt; become tiresome to read.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt; Adrian<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; Teas mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.org</=
a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br=
>
&gt; <br>
&gt; ______________________________________________________________________=
______<br>
&gt; _____________________________________________<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations<br>
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&gt; ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<br>
&gt; a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les me=
ssages<br>
&gt; electroniques etant susceptibles d&#39;alteration,<br>
&gt; Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
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&gt; This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
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&gt; <br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Teas mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Loa Andersson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: <a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank"=
>loa@pi.nu</a><br>
Senior MPLS Expert=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:loa.pi.nu@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">loa.pi.nu@gmail.com</a><br>
Bronze Dragon Consulting=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pho=
ne: +46 739 81 21 64<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Teas mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Teas mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
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To: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Med Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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From: Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 15:58:48 -0400
Message-ID: <CAEz6PPTe1kkiHpSYfSr2gD495MUcCfGHpWqnScbYax-BXgEKLQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Ogaki, Kenichi" <ke-oogaki@kddi.com>
Cc: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>,  Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Med Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>,  TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/EBG-jyCDcYe35G3grMAiXgH11jo>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 10:09 PM Ogaki, Kenichi <ke-oogaki@kddi.com> wrote:

> Hi Adrian and All,
>
> >I agree with Loa, moving the definition of how the term "customer" is
> interpreted in the document to the Terms and Abbreviations section seems
> very reasonable.
> +1
> I don't stick to "customer", but a discussion how about rephrasing
> "provider" with "producer" may also rise when I choose non-ietf-standard
> "consumer" term,
>
> Related to this, should we rephrase " IETF Network Slice user" if there i=
s
> any intention to leave?
> 5.2.  Expressing Connectivity Intents
> The NSC northbound interface (NBI) can be used to communicate between IET=
F
> Network Slice users (or customers) and the NSC.
> An IETF Network Slice user may be a network operator who, in turn,
> provides the IETF Network Slice to another IETF Network Slice user or
> customer.
>

During the discussions on TE Topology Model, there was a similar discussion
on such terminology. At that time, the pair "client/provider" was picked
over "consumer" and "customer". The term "client" has my vote here too.


> >the expectation currently is that the IETF Network Slice Service will us=
e
> something along the lines of the service models (L2SM and L3SM).  It seem=
s
> reasonable to enhance those with something about service functions, quite
> possibly along the lines you are already working on.
> >
> > [TS] (snip) Alternatively, does it help if the NBI request expresses
> such inclusions/exclusions policy using/referencing a  customer-centric
> topology that a provider may have furnished earlier to the customer, and
> which the provider can readily map to their
>
> FYI, L3SM tried to let the customer define such policy against PE site in
> sec. 6.6.
> I know this is non-exhaustive for IETF Network Slice.
>
>
> Editorials:
> - I'm not sure if recent RFCs should refer SNMP as an NBI in the sense of
> https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/writable-mib-module/ .
> 5.2.  Expressing Connectivity Intents
> o  SNMP ([RFC3417], [RFC3412] and [RFC3414] uses binary encoding (ASN.1).
> o  For data modeling, YANG ([RFC6020] and [RFC7950]) may be used to model
> configuration and other data for NETCONF, RESTCONF, and GNMI - among
> others; ProtoBufs can be used to model gRPC and GNMI data; Structure of
> Management Information (SMI) [RFC2578] may be used to define Management
> Information Base (MIB) modules for SNMP, using an adapted subset of OSI's
> Abstract Syntax Notation One (ASN.1, 1988).
>
> - multipoint-to-point twice
> .2.  IETF Network Slice Endpoints
> As noted in Section 3.1, an IETF Network Slice describes connectivity
> between multiple endpoints across the underlying network.  These
> connectivity types are: point-to-point, point-to-multipoint,
> multipoint-to-point, multipoint-to-point, or multipoint-to-multipoint.
>
>
> All the best,
> Kenichi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Gyan Mishra
> Sent: Saturday, May 8, 2021 10:55 AM
> To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> Cc: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>; Med Boucadair <
> mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>; Loa Andersson <
> loa@pi.nu>
> Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slic=
es
>
> I agree with Loa and am not crazy about either customer or consumer as
> either refers to a =E2=80=9Chuman=E2=80=9D endpoint and not a system endp=
oint made of
> hardware or software like the term =E2=80=9CCE=E2=80=9D.
>
> +1 for Customer over Consumer as a customer is human endpoint that has
> paid for service SLA where  a consumer is  broader term like subscriber
> describing for example all broadband subscriber community.
>
> On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:55 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto=
:
> gregimirsky@gmail.com> > wrote:
>
>
>         Hi,
>         I agree with Loa, moving the definition of how the term "customer=
"
> is interpreted in the document to the Terms and Abbreviations section see=
ms
> very reasonable. Perhaps the section can include two sub-sections -
> Abbreviations/Acronyms and Terms/Terminology. I've noticed that there is
> the forward reference in the section:
>            The above terminology is defined in greater details in the
> remainder
>            of this document.
>
>         It could be those other definitions of terms used in the specific
> context in the document be collected in the new sub-section.
>
>         Regards,
>         Greg
>
>
>         On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 12:32 AM Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu <mailto:
> loa@pi.nu> > wrote:
>
>
>                 Adrian,
>
>                 That is acceptable.
>
>                 As you said it is late in the document, and really not in
> a definitions
>                 section. I don't know if we can we place something in
> Section "2.  Terms
>                 and Abbreviations", but there seems to be only
> abbreviations.
>
>                 Your wholesale example:
>
>                 I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call the
> school that
>                 buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do you
> call the school
>                 the customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the
> food as the
>                 customer? The contract is with the school, negotiated by
> the cook,
>                 signed by the bursar.
>
>                 I think "the school! is the customer, which is OK in this
> context. The
>                 cook and the school kids could be viewed as consumers",
> one removed from
>                 the system.
>
>                 It strikes me that "Customer System" and "IETF Slice" are
> somewhat
>                 similar, the risk is that we talk about "customer" (even
> if we change
>                 it), and "slice" (even though if is really "IETF Slice)",
>
>                 Having said that, though it is not my task to call
> consensus, I think we
>                 have a enough support to use "customer".
>
>                 I rest my case.
>
>                 /Loa
>
>
>                 On 05/05/2021 13:05, Adrian Farrel wrote:
>                 > We currently have (in section 5.1, which may be a bit
> late in the document)
>                 >
>                 >     Customer:  A customer is the requester of an IETF
> Network Slice.
>                 >        Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.  A
> customer may manage
>                 >        the IETF Network Slice service directly by
> interfacing with the
>                 >        IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator.
>                 >
>                 > We could add "A customer may be an entity such as an
> enterprise network or a
>                 > network operator, an individual working at such an
> entity, a private
>                 > individual contracting for a service, or an application
> or software
>                 > component."
>                 >
>                 > Cheers,
>                 > Adrian
>                 >
>                 > -----Original Message-----
>                 > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:
> mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>  <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:
> mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> >
>                 > Sent: 05 May 2021 11:58
>                 > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk> ;
> 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu> >; teas@ietf.org <mailto:
> teas@ietf.org>
>                 > Subject: RE: [Teas] Moving forward with
> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
>                 >
>                 > Hi all,
>                 >
>                 >> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>                 >
>                 > I would simply use "customer" and make sure the
> definition is generic enough
>                 > to denote a role/entity.
>                 >
>                 > Thanks.
>                 >
>                 > Cheers,
>                 > Med
>                 >
>                 >> -----Message d'origine-----
>                 >> De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:
> teas-bounces@ietf.org> ] De la part de Adrian Farrel
>                 >> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59
>                 >> =C3=80 : 'Loa Andersson' <loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu>=
 >;
> teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>
>                 >> Objet : Re: [Teas] Moving forward with
> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-
>                 >> slices
>                 >>
>                 >> Hi Loa,
>                 >>
>                 >>> On customer vs. consumer Adrian says:
>                 >>>
>                 >>>>    c. "Consumer" vs "customer". I have made this
> consistent (we
>                 >> only need to
>                 >>>>         use one term). I selected "Customer" because
> that seemed
>                 >> best, but I
>                 >>>>         know some people prefer "consumer". Please
> discuss if you
>                 >> are not
>                 >>>>         happy.
>                 >>>
>                 >>> If the choice is between customer vs. consumer, I
> prefer customer.
>                 >>
>                 >> OK. So I made an improvement, but...
>                 >>
>                 >>> I don't know if it is too late to bring this up.
>                 >>
>                 >> It's never too late to bring things up.
>                 >>
>                 >>> But I really don't like either, normal language has a
> strong
>                 >>> indication that that that a customer is a person (a
> person that
>                 >> walks
>                 >>> inte to your
>                 >>> shop) and consumer is also a person /that eats what I
> bought at
>                 >> your shop).
>                 >>
>                 >> I think you forget about wholesale. What do you call
> the school that
>                 >> buys food at the shop to provide to the children? Do
> you call the
>                 >> school the customer, or do you refer to the cook who
> buys the food as
>                 >> the customer? The contract is with the school,
> negotiated by the
>                 >> cook, signed by the bursar.
>                 >>
>                 >>> IETF specifies "systems", including what goes into SW
> and HW, but
>                 >> we
>                 >>> don't specify normative rules for human behavior.
>                 >>>
>                 >>> I don't know if we can talk about Customer System?
>                 >>
>                 >> I'm afraid of this getting heavy for the reader. There
> are 73
>                 >> instances of "customer" in the document, and "customer
> system" may
>                 >> become tiresome to read.
>                 >>
>                 >> Anyone else got anything to say on the topic?
>                 >>
>                 >> Cheers,
>                 >> Adrian
>                 >>
>                 >> _______________________________________________
>                 >> Teas mailing list
>                 >> Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
>                 >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>                 >
>                 >
> _________________________________________________________________________=
___
>                 > _____________________________________________
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>                 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>                 >
>
>                 --
>
>                 Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
> <mailto:loa@pi.nu>
>                 Senior MPLS Expert
> loa.pi.nu@gmail.com <mailto:loa.pi.nu@gmail.com>
>                 Bronze Dragon Consulting             phone: +46 739 81 21
> 64
>
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 Teas mailing list
>                 Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
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>         Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>
>
> --
>
>
>  <http://www.verizon.com/>
>
>
> Gyan Mishra
>
> Network Solutions Architect
>
> Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>
>
>
> M 301 502-1347
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Teas mailing list
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 10:09 PM Ogaki=
, Kenichi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ke-oogaki@kddi.com">ke-oogaki@kddi.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Ad=
rian and All,<br>
<br>
&gt;I agree with Loa, moving the definition of how the term &quot;customer&=
quot; is interpreted in the document to the Terms and Abbreviations section=
 seems very reasonable.<br>
+1<br>
I don&#39;t stick to &quot;customer&quot;, but a discussion how about rephr=
asing &quot;provider&quot; with &quot;producer&quot; may also rise when I c=
hoose non-ietf-standard &quot;consumer&quot; term,<br>
<br>
Related to this, should we rephrase &quot; IETF Network Slice user&quot; if=
 there is any intention to leave?<br>
5.2.=C2=A0 Expressing Connectivity Intents<br>
The NSC northbound interface (NBI) can be used to communicate between IETF =
Network Slice users (or customers) and the NSC.<br>
An IETF Network Slice user may be a network operator who, in turn, provides=
 the IETF Network Slice to another IETF Network Slice user or customer.<br>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>During the discussions on TE Topology Mode=
l, there was a similar discussion on such terminology. At that time, the pa=
ir &quot;client/provider&quot; was picked over &quot;consumer&quot; and &qu=
ot;customer&quot;. The term &quot;client&quot; has my vote here too.</div><=
div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt;the expectation currently is that the IETF Network Slice Service will u=
se something along the lines of the service models (L2SM and L3SM).=C2=A0 I=
t seems reasonable to enhance those with something about service functions,=
 quite possibly along the lines you are already working on.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [TS] (snip) Alternatively, does it help if the NBI request expresses s=
uch inclusions/exclusions policy using/referencing a=C2=A0 customer-centric=
=C2=A0 topology that a provider may have furnished earlier to the customer,=
 and which the provider can readily map to their<br>
<br>
FYI, L3SM tried to let the customer define such policy against PE site in s=
ec. 6.6.<br>
I know this is non-exhaustive for IETF Network Slice.<br>
<br>
<br>
Editorials:<br>
- I&#39;m not sure if recent RFCs should refer SNMP as an NBI in the sense =
of <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/writable-mi=
b-module/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/about/=
groups/iesg/statements/writable-mib-module/</a> .<br>
5.2.=C2=A0 Expressing Connectivity Intents<br>
o=C2=A0 SNMP ([RFC3417], [RFC3412] and [RFC3414] uses binary encoding (ASN.=
1).<br>
o=C2=A0 For data modeling, YANG ([RFC6020] and [RFC7950]) may be used to mo=
del configuration and other data for NETCONF, RESTCONF, and GNMI - among ot=
hers; ProtoBufs can be used to model gRPC and GNMI data; Structure of Manag=
ement Information (SMI) [RFC2578] may be used to define Management Informat=
ion Base (MIB) modules for SNMP, using an adapted subset of OSI&#39;s Abstr=
act Syntax Notation One (ASN.1, 1988).<br>
<br>
- multipoint-to-point twice<br>
.2.=C2=A0 IETF Network Slice Endpoints<br>
As noted in Section 3.1, an IETF Network Slice describes connectivity betwe=
en multiple endpoints across the underlying network.=C2=A0 These connectivi=
ty types are: point-to-point, point-to-multipoint, multipoint-to-point, mul=
tipoint-to-point, or multipoint-to-multipoint.<br>
<br>
<br>
All the best,<br>
Kenichi<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Teas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">t=
eas-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Gyan Mishra<br>
Sent: Saturday, May 8, 2021 10:55 AM<br>
To: Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: Adrian Farrel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_bla=
nk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;; Med Boucadair &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohame=
d.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&=
gt;; TEAS WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@ie=
tf.org</a>&gt;; Loa Andersson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_b=
lank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices=
<br>
<br>
I agree with Loa and am not crazy about either customer or consumer as eith=
er refers to a =E2=80=9Chuman=E2=80=9D endpoint and not a system endpoint m=
ade of hardware or software like the term =E2=80=9CCE=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 <br>
<br>
+1 for Customer over Consumer as a customer is human endpoint that has paid=
 for service SLA where=C2=A0 a consumer is=C2=A0 broader term like subscrib=
er describing for example all broadband subscriber community.<br>
<br>
On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:55 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsk=
y@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</=
a>&gt; &gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hi,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I agree with Loa, moving the definition of how =
the term &quot;customer&quot; is interpreted in the document to the Terms a=
nd Abbreviations section seems very reasonable. Perhaps the section can inc=
lude two sub-sections - Abbreviations/Acronyms and Terms/Terminology. I&#39=
;ve noticed that there is the forward reference in the section:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The above terminology is defined i=
n greater details in the remainder<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of this document.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 It could be those other definitions of terms us=
ed in the specific context in the document be collected in the new sub-sect=
ion.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Regards,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Greg<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 12:32 AM Loa Andersson &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank">loa@pi.nu</a> &lt;mailto:=
<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt; &gt; wrote=
:<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Adrian,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 That is acceptable.=
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 As you said it is l=
ate in the document, and really not in a definitions <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 section. I don&#39;=
t know if we can we place something in Section &quot;2.=C2=A0 Terms <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and Abbreviations&q=
uot;, but there seems to be only abbreviations.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Your wholesale exam=
ple:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think you forget =
about wholesale. What do you call the school that <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 buys food at the sh=
op to provide to the children? Do you call the school <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the customer, or do=
 you refer to the cook who buys the food as the <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 customer? The contr=
act is with the school, negotiated by the cook, <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 signed by the bursa=
r.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think &quot;the s=
chool! is the customer, which is OK in this context. The <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 cook and the school=
 kids could be viewed as consumers&quot;, one removed from <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the system.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 It strikes me that =
&quot;Customer System&quot; and &quot;IETF Slice&quot; are somewhat <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 similar, the risk i=
s that we talk about &quot;customer&quot; (even if we change <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 it), and &quot;slic=
e&quot; (even though if is really &quot;IETF Slice)&quot;,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Having said that, t=
hough it is not my task to call consensus, I think we <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 have a enough suppo=
rt to use &quot;customer&quot;.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I rest my case.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /Loa<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 05/05/2021 13:05=
, Adrian Farrel wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; We currently h=
ave (in section 5.1, which may be a bit late in the document)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Customer:=C2=A0 A customer is the requester of an IETF Network Slice.=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Customers may request monitoring of SLOs.=C2=A0 A customer ma=
y manage<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the IETF Network Slice service directly by interfacing with t=
he<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IETF NSC or indirectly through an orchestrator.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; We could add &=
quot;A customer may be an entity such as an enterprise network or a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; network operat=
or, an individual working at such an entity, a private<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; individual con=
tracting for a service, or an application or software<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; component.&quo=
t;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Cheers,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Adrian<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; -----Original =
Message-----<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; From: <a href=
=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadai=
r@orange.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;=C2=A0 &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadai=
r@orange.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt; &gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Sent: 05 May 2=
021 11:58<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; To: <a href=3D=
"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a> &lt;=
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@oldd=
og.co.uk</a>&gt; ; &#39;Loa Andersson&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu"=
 target=3D"_blank">loa@pi.nu</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt; &gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</a>&gt; <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Subject: RE: [=
Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Hi all,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Anyone els=
e got anything to say on the topic?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; I would simply=
 use &quot;customer&quot; and make sure the definition is generic enough<br=
>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; to denote a ro=
le/entity.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Thanks.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Cheers,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Med<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; -----Messa=
ge d&#39;origine-----<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; De : Teas =
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas-bou=
nces@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; ] De la part de Adrian Farrel<br=
>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Envoy=C3=
=A9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 11:59<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; =C3=80 : &=
#39;Loa Andersson&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank">l=
oa@pi.nu</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank">loa@=
pi.nu</a>&gt; &gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas=
@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>teas@ietf.org</a>&gt; <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Objet : Re=
: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; slices<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Hi Loa,<br=
>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; On cus=
tomer vs. consumer Adrian says:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 c. &quot;Consumer&quot; vs &quot;customer&quot;. I have made thi=
s consistent (we<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; only need =
to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0use one term). I selected &quot;Customer&quo=
t; because that seemed<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; best, but =
I<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0know some people prefer &quot;consumer&quot;=
. Please discuss if you<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; are not<br=
>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0happy.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; If the=
 choice is between customer vs. consumer, I prefer customer.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; OK. So I m=
ade an improvement, but...<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I don&=
#39;t know if it is too late to bring this up.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; It&#39;s n=
ever too late to bring things up.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; But I =
really don&#39;t like either, normal language has a strong<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; indica=
tion that that that a customer is a person (a person that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; walks<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; inte t=
o your<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; shop) =
and consumer is also a person /that eats what I bought at<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; your shop)=
.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; I think yo=
u forget about wholesale. What do you call the school that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; buys food =
at the shop to provide to the children? Do you call the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; school the=
 customer, or do you refer to the cook who buys the food as<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; the custom=
er? The contract is with the school, negotiated by the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; cook, sign=
ed by the bursar.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; IETF s=
pecifies &quot;systems&quot;, including what goes into SW and HW, but<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; we<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; don&#3=
9;t specify normative rules for human behavior.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I don&=
#39;t know if we can talk about Customer System?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; I&#39;m af=
raid of this getting heavy for the reader. There are 73<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; instances =
of &quot;customer&quot; in the document, and &quot;customer system&quot; ma=
y<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; become tir=
esome to read.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Anyone els=
e got anything to say on the topic?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Cheers,<br=
>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Adrian<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; __________=
_____________________________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Teas maili=
ng list<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <a href=3D=
"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.org</a>&gt; <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; <a href=3D=
"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_=
blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <br>
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From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
To: "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: A draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF network slicing
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Subject: [Teas] A draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF network slicing
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Hi WG,

Recently we published a draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF network =
slicing: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-netwo=
rk-slicing

This document describes the scenarios of end-to-end network slicing, and th=
e framework of network slice mapping between different network segments and=
 network domains. Multiple network slice related identifiers are defined to=
 covers different network scopes.

The network slice related identifiers of different network scopes can be in=
stantiated with MPLS or IPv6 data plane, which are further described in the=
 following drafts:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slicing/

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network-slicin=
g

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-network-s=
licing

Your review and comments are welcome. (Comments on the specific data plane =
draft can go to the corresponding WG mail list).

Best regards,
Jie

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi WG,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Recently we published a draft o=
n the framework for end-to-end IETF network slicing:
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-net=
work-slicing">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network-slicin=
g</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This document describes the sce=
narios of end-to-end network slicing, and the framework of network slice ma=
pping between different network segments and network domains. Multiple netw=
ork slice related identifiers are defined
 to covers different network scopes. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The network slice related ident=
ifiers of different network scopes can be instantiated with MPLS or IPv6 da=
ta plane, which are further described in the following drafts:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slicing/">https://datatracker.i=
etf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slicing/</a><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network-slicing">https://datatrack=
er.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network-slicing</a><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-network-slicing">https://data=
tracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-network-slicing</a><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Your review and comments are we=
lcome. (Comments on the specific data plane draft can go to the correspondi=
ng WG mail list).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Jie<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
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To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
References: <c7bb7462db8f4149912d644adbd4760b@huawei.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] A draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF network slicing
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It is not at all clear that any identifiers are needed inside the 
various networks, and specifically it is not clear that an internal 
identifier for the end-to-end network slice is needed at the level of 
the IETF network slice as is being defined by teas.  Since path 
selection, QoS parameter handling, and resource allocation needs to be 
handled in aggregate, it seems likely that no such identifier is needed.

Yours,
Joel

On 5/12/2021 10:53 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
> Hi WG,
> 
> Recently we published a draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF 
> network slicing: 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network-slicing 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network-slicing>
> 
> This document describes the scenarios of end-to-end network slicing, and 
> the framework of network slice mapping between different network 
> segments and network domains. Multiple network slice related identifiers 
> are defined to covers different network scopes.
> 
> The network slice related identifiers of different network scopes can be 
> instantiated with MPLS or IPv6 data plane, which are further described 
> in the following drafts:
> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slicing/ 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slicing/>
> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network-slicing 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network-slicing>
> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-network-slicing 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-network-slicing>
> 
> Your review and comments are welcome. (Comments on the specific data 
> plane draft can go to the corresponding WG mail list).
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Jie
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Teas mailing list
> Teas@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
> 


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From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] A draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF network slicing
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Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 03:54:52 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Teas] A draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF network slicing
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Hi Joel,=20

Thanks for your comments.

The requirement of carrying network slice related identifier in the data pa=
cket was described in draft-dong-teas-enhanced-vpn-vtn-scalability and othe=
r relevant documents. Currently there are several proposals about the encap=
sulation of network slice related identifiers. Based on that, this document=
 further describes the considerations about the multi-domain IETF network s=
lice scenario, and the interaction with other technical domains for 5G end-=
to-end network slicing.=20

You are right that the path selection, resource allocation and traffic hand=
ling would be based on the identifiers internal to a network domain. As des=
cribed in this draft, the end-to-end network slice identifier may be used f=
or traffic monitoring at the end-to-end network slice granularity.

Best regards,
Jie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2021 12:49 PM
> To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; teas@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Teas] A draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF network
> slicing
>=20
> It is not at all clear that any identifiers are needed inside the various=
 networks,
> and specifically it is not clear that an internal identifier for the end-=
to-end
> network slice is needed at the level of the IETF network slice as is bein=
g defined
> by teas.  Since path selection, QoS parameter handling, and resource
> allocation needs to be handled in aggregate, it seems likely that no such
> identifier is needed.
>=20
> Yours,
> Joel
>=20
> On 5/12/2021 10:53 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
> > Hi WG,
> >
> > Recently we published a draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF
> > network slicing:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network-s
> > licing
> > <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network-
> > slicing>
> >
> > This document describes the scenarios of end-to-end network slicing,
> > and the framework of network slice mapping between different network
> > segments and network domains. Multiple network slice related
> > identifiers are defined to covers different network scopes.
> >
> > The network slice related identifiers of different network scopes can
> > be instantiated with MPLS or IPv6 data plane, which are further
> > described in the following drafts:
> >
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slicin
> > g/
> > <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slici
> > ng/>
> >
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network-s
> > licing
> > <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network-
> > slicing>
> >
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-netw
> > ork-slicing
> > <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-net
> > work-slicing>
> >
> > Your review and comments are welcome. (Comments on the specific data
> > plane draft can go to the corresponding WG mail list).
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Jie
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Teas mailing list
> > Teas@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
> >


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To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
References: <c7bb7462db8f4149912d644adbd4760b@huawei.com> <e8e5e968-f6af-a910-d2ec-510fc98ff1d6@joelhalpern.com> <16d8b18dc5574d728842f086227efa97@huawei.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] A draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF network slicing
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Do you mean traffic monitoring at the domain edges?  Or inside the 
domain?  If at the domain edges, then any mapping technology can also be 
used for monitoring.
If inside the domain, this places a significant disaggregated statistics 
collection load on the internals of the network.
Edge-to-Edge monitoring by the consumer (client? customer?) of the 
component is clealry useful.  But does not requrie such identification. 
  Nor does it requrie internal disaggregated state reporting.
the internals presumably will monitor the aggregated behavior.  Which 
again does not require the identification.

Yours,
Joel

On 5/13/2021 11:54 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
> Hi Joel,
> 
> Thanks for your comments.
> 
> The requirement of carrying network slice related identifier in the data packet was described in draft-dong-teas-enhanced-vpn-vtn-scalability and other relevant documents. Currently there are several proposals about the encapsulation of network slice related identifiers. Based on that, this document further describes the considerations about the multi-domain IETF network slice scenario, and the interaction with other technical domains for 5G end-to-end network slicing.
> 
> You are right that the path selection, resource allocation and traffic handling would be based on the identifiers internal to a network domain. As described in this draft, the end-to-end network slice identifier may be used for traffic monitoring at the end-to-end network slice granularity.
> 
> Best regards,
> Jie
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2021 12:49 PM
>> To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; teas@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Teas] A draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF network
>> slicing
>>
>> It is not at all clear that any identifiers are needed inside the various networks,
>> and specifically it is not clear that an internal identifier for the end-to-end
>> network slice is needed at the level of the IETF network slice as is being defined
>> by teas.  Since path selection, QoS parameter handling, and resource
>> allocation needs to be handled in aggregate, it seems likely that no such
>> identifier is needed.
>>
>> Yours,
>> Joel
>>
>> On 5/12/2021 10:53 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
>>> Hi WG,
>>>
>>> Recently we published a draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF
>>> network slicing:
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network-s
>>> licing
>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network-
>>> slicing>
>>>
>>> This document describes the scenarios of end-to-end network slicing,
>>> and the framework of network slice mapping between different network
>>> segments and network domains. Multiple network slice related
>>> identifiers are defined to covers different network scopes.
>>>
>>> The network slice related identifiers of different network scopes can
>>> be instantiated with MPLS or IPv6 data plane, which are further
>>> described in the following drafts:
>>>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slicin
>>> g/
>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slici
>>> ng/>
>>>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network-s
>>> licing
>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network-
>>> slicing>
>>>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-netw
>>> ork-slicing
>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-net
>>> work-slicing>
>>>
>>> Your review and comments are welcome. (Comments on the specific data
>>> plane draft can go to the corresponding WG mail list).
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Jie
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Teas mailing list
>>> Teas@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>>>


From nobody Fri May 14 02:15:47 2021
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From: "Belotti, Sergio (Nokia - IT/Vimercate)" <sergio.belotti@nokia.com>
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CC: "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>, Italo Busi <Italo.Busi@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: definite feedback of  bidirectional path with asymmetric path properties issue#65 for draft-ietf-teas-yang-path-computation
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Subject: [Teas] definite feedback of bidirectional path with asymmetric path properties issue#65 for draft-ietf-teas-yang-path-computation
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--_000_AM0PR07MB549016DCB1294D264723D19691509AM0PR07MB5490eurp_
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Hi Julien, all
Related to path computation yang model, you raised some time ago a request =
to address the requirement we summarized in issue #65<https://github.com/rv=
ilalta/ietf-te-path-computation/issues/65> of path computation github.
After coordination also with TEAS te-tunnel model authors/contributors we w=
ent to the conclusion the current RPC already support the requirement of re=
porting bidirectional path with asymmetric path
properties.
The path compute RPC request will requests to compute two paths (the forwar=
d and the reverse path).
The path request for the reverse path will have an empty "route-object-incl=
ude-exclude" (to indicate that the reverse path is co-routed with the forwa=
rd path) and no path constraints (to indicate that the path constraints are=
 the same as the forward path).
The path compute RPC reply will return both computed paths with the path pr=
operties of the forward and reverse paths.
With this feedback we consider the issue closed.

Thanks

Italo and Sergio on-behalf of authors/contributors



Sergio Belotti
Senior System Engineer and Standardization Architect
Network Infrastructure BG, Optics BU
Nokia
M: +39-335761776
Via Energy Park, 20871 Vimercate (MB) , Italy
sergio.belotti@nokia.com<mailto:sergio.belotti@nokia.com>


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Julien, all<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Related to path computation yang model, you raised s=
ome time ago a request to address the requirement we summarized in issue
<a href=3D"https://github.com/rvilalta/ietf-te-path-computation/issues/65">=
#65</a> of path computation github.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">After coordination also with TEAS te-tunnel model au=
thors/contributors we went to the conclusion the current RPC already suppor=
t the requirement of reporting bidirectional path with asymmetric path<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">properties. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The path compute RPC request will requests to comput=
e two paths (the forward and the reverse path).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The path request for the reverse path will have an e=
mpty &#8220;route-object-include-exclude&#8221; (to indicate that the rever=
se path is co-routed with the forward path) and no path constraints (to ind=
icate that the path constraints are the same as
 the forward path).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The path compute RPC reply will return both computed=
 paths with the path properties of the forward and reverse paths.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">With this feedback we consider the issue closed.<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Italo and Sergio on-behalf of authors/contributors <=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#7F7F7F">Sergio Belotti<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#7F7F7F">Senior System Engineer=
 and Standardization Architect<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#7F7F7F">Network Infrastructure=
 BG, Optics BU<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#7F7F7F">Nokia </span><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"IT" style=3D"color:#7F7F7F">M: +39-335=
761776<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"IT" style=3D"color:#7F7F7F">Via Energy=
 Park, 20871 Vimercate (MB) , Italy</span><span lang=3D"IT" style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"IT"><a href=3D"mailto:sergio.belotti@n=
okia.com">sergio.belotti@nokia.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [Teas] [netmod] Typedefs for bandwidth
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Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 12:48:20 +0200
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Italo Busi <Italo.Busi@huawei.com>
Cc: Reshad Rahman <reshad=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "'netmod@ietf.org'" <netmod@ietf.org>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] [netmod] Typedefs for bandwidth
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I assume it is best to settle this in teas. Form a programmatic point
of view, you likely want to have a single unit. Even if you go for bps
(bits per second), a uint64 still allows you to express quite big data
rates (I think 16777216 terra bits per second but please check
yourself). From a human point of view, having a notation that supports
different units may be desirable. But if you have multiple
representations, this surely increases implementation cost and it gets
you into answer questions whether there should be a canonical format
or a way to decide which unit is selected. Writing constraints in when
or must statements will also become much more fun.

Whether you really need the range of a floating point number, I can't
tell. Perhaps check what the realistic smallest and biggest bandwidth
is that you need to represent. Generally, floating point numbers seem
to be a no-brainer for management application writers but I have been
told that they are less frequently found in line cards or OS kernels.

/js

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 10:08:00AM +0000, Italo Busi wrote:
> Reshad, Juergen,
> 
> Actually, there is some on-going discussion within TEAS because some packet technology-specific YANG modules are not using the bandwidth-ieee-float32 but prefers using some uint type:
> 
> https://github.com/tsaad-dev/te/issues/116
> 
> The ietf-te-packet-types already defines bandwidth-kbps, bandwidth-mbps and bandwidth-gbps but during the discussion of this open issue it was pointed out that it would be desirable to specify both the bandwidth and the units (Kbps/Mbps/Gbps)
> 
> Italo
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > Sent: giovedÃ¬ 13 maggio 2021 19:25
> > To: Reshad Rahman <reshad=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> > Cc: 'netmod@ietf.org' <netmod@ietf.org>
> > Subject: Re: [netmod] Typedefs for bandwidth
> > 
> > On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 11:57:26AM -0400, Reshad Rahman wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Has there been any discussions wrt adding new Â bandwidth types e.g. the
> > bandwidth-xxx types in draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-types? I see RFC8294 has
> > bandwidth-ieee-float32 but it doesnâ€™t have units (Kbps/Mbps/Gbps).
> > >
> > 
> > The description of bandwidth-ieee-float32 says:
> > 
> >           The units are octets per second.
> > 
> > Note that draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-types has been published as RFC 8776 in June
> > 2020, it should be safe to use these definitions.
> > 
> > /js
> > 
> > --
> > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> > 
> 

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Applicability of Abstraction and Control of Traffic Engineered Networks (ACTN) to Packet Optical Integration (POI)
        Authors         : Fabio Peruzzini
                          Jean-Francois Bouquier
                          Italo Busi
                          Daniel King
                          Daniele Ceccarelli
	Filename        : draft-ietf-teas-actn-poi-applicability-02.txt
	Pages           : 31
	Date            : 2021-05-14

Abstract:
   This document considers the applicability of Abstraction and Control
   of TE Networks (ACTN) architecture to Packet Optical Integration
   (POI)in the context of IP/MPLS and Optical internetworking,
   identifying the YANG data models being defined by the IETF to
   support this deployment architecture as well as specific scenarios
   relevant for Service Providers.

   Existing IETF protocols and data models are identified for each
   multi-layer (packet over optical) scenario with particular focus on
   the MPI (Multi-Domain Service Coordinator to Provisioning Network
   Controllers Interface)in the ACTN architecture.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-actn-poi-applicability/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-actn-poi-applicability-02
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-actn-poi-applicability-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-teas-actn-poi-applicability-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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Thread-Topic: [netmod] Typedefs for bandwidth
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Subject: Re: [Teas] [netmod] Typedefs for bandwidth
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Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 16:45:51 +0000 (UTC)
From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>,  "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/gMkmzmJ41bLNFX_oDNkI_TYTtpU>
Subject: Re: [Teas] A draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF network slicing
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
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 Hi Joel,
Suppose a TE service/tunnel is requested and set up connecting access point=
s A and B across the network. Can I consider such a tunnel as a trivial IET=
F network slice? If not, why? If yes. why not to reduce, generally speaking=
, the=C2=A0 IETF network slice problem to the problem of p2p and p2mp TE tu=
nnels interconnecting IETF slice end points? For example, we have spent a l=
ot of time discussing e2e multi-domain TE tunnels and how their segments in=
 each domain are identified, associated, etc. Is it necessary or useful in =
your opinion to repeat the discussion in the context of slicing?

Thanks,Igor

    On Friday, May 14, 2021, 12:05:44 AM EDT, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalp=
ern.com> wrote: =20
=20
 Do you mean traffic monitoring at the domain edges?=C2=A0 Or inside the=20
domain?=C2=A0 If at the domain edges, then any mapping technology can also =
be=20
used for monitoring.
If inside the domain, this places a significant disaggregated statistics=20
collection load on the internals of the network.
Edge-to-Edge monitoring by the consumer (client? customer?) of the=20
component is clealry useful.=C2=A0 But does not requrie such identification=
.=20
=C2=A0 Nor does it requrie internal disaggregated state reporting.
the internals presumably will monitor the aggregated behavior.=C2=A0 Which=
=20
again does not require the identification.

Yours,
Joel

On 5/13/2021 11:54 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
> Hi Joel,
>=20
> Thanks for your comments.
>=20
> The requirement of carrying network slice related identifier in the data =
packet was described in draft-dong-teas-enhanced-vpn-vtn-scalability and ot=
her relevant documents. Currently there are several proposals about the enc=
apsulation of network slice related identifiers. Based on that, this docume=
nt further describes the considerations about the multi-domain IETF network=
 slice scenario, and the interaction with other technical domains for 5G en=
d-to-end network slicing.
>=20
> You are right that the path selection, resource allocation and traffic ha=
ndling would be based on the identifiers internal to a network domain. As d=
escribed in this draft, the end-to-end network slice identifier may be used=
 for traffic monitoring at the end-to-end network slice granularity.
>=20
> Best regards,
> Jie
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2021 12:49 PM
>> To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; teas@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Teas] A draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF network
>> slicing
>>
>> It is not at all clear that any identifiers are needed inside the variou=
s networks,
>> and specifically it is not clear that an internal identifier for the end=
-to-end
>> network slice is needed at the level of the IETF network slice as is bei=
ng defined
>> by teas.=C2=A0 Since path selection, QoS parameter handling, and resourc=
e
>> allocation needs to be handled in aggregate, it seems likely that no suc=
h
>> identifier is needed.
>>
>> Yours,
>> Joel
>>
>> On 5/12/2021 10:53 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
>>> Hi WG,
>>>
>>> Recently we published a draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF
>>> network slicing:
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network-s
>>> licing
>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network-
>>> slicing>
>>>
>>> This document describes the scenarios of end-to-end network slicing,
>>> and the framework of network slice mapping between different network
>>> segments and network domains. Multiple network slice related
>>> identifiers are defined to covers different network scopes.
>>>
>>> The network slice related identifiers of different network scopes can
>>> be instantiated with MPLS or IPv6 data plane, which are further
>>> described in the following drafts:
>>>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slicin
>>> g/
>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slici
>>> ng/>
>>>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network-s
>>> licing
>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network-
>>> slicing>
>>>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-netw
>>> ork-slicing
>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-net
>>> work-slicing>
>>>
>>> Your review and comments are welcome. (Comments on the specific data
>>> plane draft can go to the corresponding WG mail list).
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Jie
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Teas mailing list
>>> Teas@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>>>

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
 =20
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Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydp8cbc13f2yahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1=
3px;"><div id=3D"ydp8cbc13f2yiv7396758761"><div class=3D"ydp8cbc13f2yiv7396=
758761ydp2a854a79yahoo-style-wrap" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Hel=
vetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Joel,</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none">=
</div><div dir=3D"ltr">Suppose a TE service/tunnel is requested and set up =
connecting access points A and B across the network. Can I consider such a =
tunnel as a trivial IETF network slice? If not, why? If yes. why not to red=
uce, generally speaking, the&nbsp; IETF network slice problem to the proble=
m of p2p and p2mp TE tunnels interconnecting IETF slice end points? For exa=
mple, we have spent a lot of time discussing e2e multi-domain TE tunnels an=
d how their segments in each domain are identified, associated, etc. Is it =
necessary or useful in your opinion to repeat the discussion in the context=
 of slicing?</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks,</div><div dir=3D"ltr">I=
gor</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
       =20
        </div></div></div><div class=3D"yiv7396758761yqt1804837191" id=3D"y=
iv7396758761yqt94949"><div class=3D"yiv7396758761yahoo_quoted" id=3D"yiv739=
6758761yahoo_quoted_1157931422">
            <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
               =20
                <div>
                    On Friday, May 14, 2021, 12:05:44 AM EDT, Joel M. Halpe=
rn &lt;jmh@joelhalpern.com&gt; wrote:
                </div>
                <div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
                <div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
                <div><div dir=3D"ltr">Do you mean traffic monitoring at the=
 domain edges?&nbsp; Or inside the <br clear=3D"none">domain?&nbsp; If at t=
he domain edges, then any mapping technology can also be <br clear=3D"none"=
>used for monitoring.<br clear=3D"none">If inside the domain, this places a=
 significant disaggregated statistics <br clear=3D"none">collection load on=
 the internals of the network.<br clear=3D"none">Edge-to-Edge monitoring by=
 the consumer (client? customer?) of the <br clear=3D"none">component is cl=
ealry useful.&nbsp; But does not requrie such identification. <br clear=3D"=
none">&nbsp; Nor does it requrie internal disaggregated state reporting.<br=
 clear=3D"none">the internals presumably will monitor the aggregated behavi=
or.&nbsp; Which <br clear=3D"none">again does not require the identificatio=
n.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Yours,<br clear=3D"none">Joel<br cl=
ear=3D"none"><div class=3D"yiv7396758761yqt6122002150" id=3D"yiv7396758761y=
qtfd34994"><br clear=3D"none">On 5/13/2021 11:54 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:=
<br clear=3D"none">&gt; Hi Joel,<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">=
&gt; Thanks for your comments.<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&g=
t; The requirement of carrying network slice related identifier in the data=
 packet was described in draft-dong-teas-enhanced-vpn-vtn-scalability and o=
ther relevant documents. Currently there are several proposals about the en=
capsulation of network slice related identifiers. Based on that, this docum=
ent further describes the considerations about the multi-domain IETF networ=
k slice scenario, and the interaction with other technical domains for 5G e=
nd-to-end network slicing.<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; Y=
ou are right that the path selection, resource allocation and traffic handl=
ing would be based on the identifiers internal to a network domain. As desc=
ribed in this draft, the end-to-end network slice identifier may be used fo=
r traffic monitoring at the end-to-end network slice granularity.<br clear=
=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; Best regards,<br clear=3D"none">&gt;=
 Jie<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; -----Original Messa=
ge-----<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:<a rel=3D"=
nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalp=
ern.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com">jmh@joelhalp=
ern.com</a>]<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2021 12:49 =
PM<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; To: Dongjie (Jimmy) &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow no=
opener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com">jie.dong@huawei.com</a>=
&gt;; <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mai=
lto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@iet=
f.org</a><br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Teas] A draft on the fra=
mework for end-to-end IETF network<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; slicing<br cl=
ear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; It is not at all clear tha=
t any identifiers are needed inside the various networks,<br clear=3D"none"=
>&gt;&gt; and specifically it is not clear that an internal identifier for =
the end-to-end<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; network slice is needed at the le=
vel of the IETF network slice as is being defined<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt=
; by teas.&nbsp; Since path selection, QoS parameter handling, and resource=
<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; allocation needs to be handled in aggregate, it=
 seems likely that no such<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; identifier is needed.=
<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; Yours,<br clear=3D"n=
one">&gt;&gt; Joel<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt; On=
 5/12/2021 10:53 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; =
Hi WG,<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; Recent=
ly we published a draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF<br clear=3D"no=
ne">&gt;&gt;&gt; network slicing:<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; <a rel=3D"=
nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http=
s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network-s">https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network-s</a><br clea=
r=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; licing<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a rel=3D=
"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"htt=
ps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network-">https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network-</a><br clear=
=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; slicing&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=
=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; This document describes the scenarios of end-to-end =
network slicing,<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; and the framework of networ=
k slice mapping between different network<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; se=
gments and network domains. Multiple network slice related<br clear=3D"none=
">&gt;&gt;&gt; identifiers are defined to covers different network scopes.<=
br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; The network s=
lice related identifiers of different network scopes can<br clear=3D"none">=
&gt;&gt;&gt; be instantiated with MPLS or IPv6 data plane, which are furthe=
r<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; described in the following drafts:<br clea=
r=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow n=
oopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://datatr=
acker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slicin">https://datatrack=
er.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slicin</a><br clear=3D"none"=
>&gt;&gt;&gt; g/<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noop=
ener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://datatrack=
er.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slici">https://datatracker.i=
etf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slici</a><br clear=3D"none">&gt;=
&gt;&gt; ng/&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&=
gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank=
" href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-netw=
ork-s">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network=
-s</a><br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; licing<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt;=
 &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blan=
k" href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-net=
work-">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network=
-</a><br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; slicing&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;=
&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer"=
 shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/=
html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-netw">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/htm=
l/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-netw</a><br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; ork-s=
licing<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noref=
errer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-net">https://datatracker.ietf.org/do=
c/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-net</a><br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; w=
ork-slicing&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&g=
t; Your review and comments are welcome. (Comments on the specific data<br =
clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; plane draft can go to the corresponding WG mail=
 list).<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; Best =
regards,<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; Jie<=
br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"n=
one">&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br clear=
=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; Teas mailing list<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; <a =
rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Teas@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org">Teas@ietf.org</a>=
<br clear=3D"none">&gt;&gt;&gt; <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" sha=
pe=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo=
/teas">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br clear=3D"none">&gt=
;&gt;&gt;<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">____________________________=
___________________<br clear=3D"none">Teas mailing list<br clear=3D"none"><=
a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Tea=
s@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org">Teas@ietf.org</=
a><br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect"=
 target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas">http=
s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></=
div>
            </div>
        </div></div></body></html>
------=_Part_643500_1459596715.1621010751441--


From nobody Fri May 14 09:50:27 2021
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From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] A draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF network slicing
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The answer seems to depend upon ones perspective.  While I have an 
opinion (maybe even several) about where our IETF network slice 
(service or interface) definitions will end up, I do not speak for the 
community.  Until we have arrived, I will treat these things as distinct.

On 5/14/2021 12:45 PM, Igor Bryskin wrote:
> Hi Joel,
> 
> Suppose a TE service/tunnel is requested and set up connecting access 
> points A and B across the network. Can I consider such a tunnel as a 
> trivial IETF network slice? If not, why? If yes. why not to reduce, 
> generally speaking, theÂ  IETF network slice problem to the problem of 
> p2p and p2mp TE tunnels interconnecting IETF slice end points? For 
> example, we have spent a lot of time discussing e2e multi-domain TE 
> tunnels and how their segments in each domain are identified, 
> associated, etc. Is it necessary or useful in your opinion to repeat the 
> discussion in the context of slicing?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Igor
> 
> 
> On Friday, May 14, 2021, 12:05:44 AM EDT, Joel M. Halpern 
> <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Do you mean traffic monitoring at the domain edges?Â  Or inside the
> domain?Â  If at the domain edges, then any mapping technology can also be
> used for monitoring.
> If inside the domain, this places a significant disaggregated statistics
> collection load on the internals of the network.
> Edge-to-Edge monitoring by the consumer (client? customer?) of the
> component is clealry useful.Â  But does not requrie such identification.
>  Â  Nor does it requrie internal disaggregated state reporting.
> the internals presumably will monitor the aggregated behavior.Â  Which
> again does not require the identification.
> 
> Yours,
> Joel
> 
> On 5/13/2021 11:54 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
>  > Hi Joel,
>  >
>  > Thanks for your comments.
>  >
>  > The requirement of carrying network slice related identifier in the 
> data packet was described in 
> draft-dong-teas-enhanced-vpn-vtn-scalability and other relevant 
> documents. Currently there are several proposals about the encapsulation 
> of network slice related identifiers. Based on that, this document 
> further describes the considerations about the multi-domain IETF network 
> slice scenario, and the interaction with other technical domains for 5G 
> end-to-end network slicing.
>  >
>  > You are right that the path selection, resource allocation and 
> traffic handling would be based on the identifiers internal to a network 
> domain. As described in this draft, the end-to-end network slice 
> identifier may be used for traffic monitoring at the end-to-end network 
> slice granularity.
>  >
>  > Best regards,
>  > Jie
>  >
>  >> -----Original Message-----
>  >> From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com 
> <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>]
>  >> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2021 12:49 PM
>  >> To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com 
> <mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com>>; teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>
>  >> Subject: Re: [Teas] A draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF network
>  >> slicing
>  >>
>  >> It is not at all clear that any identifiers are needed inside the 
> various networks,
>  >> and specifically it is not clear that an internal identifier for the 
> end-to-end
>  >> network slice is needed at the level of the IETF network slice as is 
> being defined
>  >> by teas.Â  Since path selection, QoS parameter handling, and resource
>  >> allocation needs to be handled in aggregate, it seems likely that no 
> such
>  >> identifier is needed.
>  >>
>  >> Yours,
>  >> Joel
>  >>
>  >> On 5/12/2021 10:53 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
>  >>> Hi WG,
>  >>>
>  >>> Recently we published a draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF
>  >>> network slicing:
>  >>> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network-s 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network-s>
>  >>> licing
>  >>> 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network- 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network->
>  >>> slicing>
>  >>>
>  >>> This document describes the scenarios of end-to-end network slicing,
>  >>> and the framework of network slice mapping between different network
>  >>> segments and network domains. Multiple network slice related
>  >>> identifiers are defined to covers different network scopes.
>  >>>
>  >>> The network slice related identifiers of different network scopes can
>  >>> be instantiated with MPLS or IPv6 data plane, which are further
>  >>> described in the following drafts:
>  >>>
>  >>> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slicin 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slicin>
>  >>> g/
>  >>> 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slici 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slici>
>  >>> ng/>
>  >>>
>  >>> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network-s 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network-s>
>  >>> licing
>  >>> 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network- 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network->
>  >>> slicing>
>  >>>
>  >>> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-netw 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-netw>
>  >>> ork-slicing
>  >>> 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-net 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-net>
>  >>> work-slicing>
>  >>>
>  >>> Your review and comments are welcome. (Comments on the specific data
>  >>> plane draft can go to the corresponding WG mail list).
>  >>>
>  >>> Best regards,
>  >>>
>  >>> Jie
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>> _______________________________________________
>  >>> Teas mailing list
>  >>> Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
>  >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas 
> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas>
>  >>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Teas mailing list
> Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas 
> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas>


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From: Don Fedyk <dfedyk@labn.net>
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Thread-Topic: [netmod] Typedefs for bandwidth
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/CO4CVf4Cf2xJxZb987bRPyErzM0>
Subject: Re: [Teas] [netmod] Typedefs for bandwidth
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Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 14:14:04 -0700
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: "=?utf-8?Q?teas=40ietf.org?=" <teas@ietf.org>, "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] A draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF network slicing
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Jie,

I think, it would have been more appropriate to have =E2=80=9Cvtn/vtn-id=E2=
=80=9D in the draft name, rather than =22e2e-ietf-network-slicing=22

Cheers,
Jeff
On May 12, 2021, 7:54 PM -0700, Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong=40huawei.com>, =
wrote:
> Hi WG,
>
> Recently we published a draft on the framework for end-to-end IET=46 ne=
twork slicing: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ie=
tf-network-slicing
>
> This document describes the scenarios of end-to-end network slicing, an=
d the framework of network slice mapping between different network segmen=
ts and network domains. Multiple network slice related identifiers are de=
fined to covers different network scopes.
>
> The network slice related identifiers of different network scopes can b=
e instantiated with MPLS or IPv6 data plane, which are further described =
in the following drafts:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slicing=
/
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network-sl=
icing
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-netwo=
rk-slicing
>
> Your review and comments are welcome. (Comments on the specific data pl=
ane draft can go to the corresponding WG mail list).
>
> Best regards,
> Jie
> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
> Teas mailing list
> Teas=40ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

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<html xmlns=3D=22http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml=22>
<head>
<title></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D=22messageBodySection=22>
<div dir=3D=22auto=22>Jie,<br />
<br />
I think, it would have been more appropriate to have =E2=80=9Cvtn/vtn-id=E2=
=80=9D in the draft name, rather than =22e2e-ietf-network-slicing=22<br /=
></div>
</div>
<div name=3D=22messageSignatureSection=22><br />
<div class=3D=22match=46ont=22>Cheers,
<div>Jeff</div>
</div>
</div>
<div name=3D=22messageReplySection=22>On May 12, 2021, 7:54 PM -0700, Don=
gjie (Jimmy) &lt;jie.dong=40huawei.com&gt;, wrote:<br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 style=3D=22border-left-color: grey; border-=
left-width: thin; border-left-style: solid; margin: 5px 5px;padding-left:=
 10px;=22>
<div class=3D=22WordSection1=22>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22=
>Hi WG,</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22=
>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22=
>Recently we published a draft on the framework for end-to-end IET=46 net=
work slicing: <a href=3D=22https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li=
-teas-e2e-ietf-network-slicing=22>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/d=
raft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network-slicing</a></span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22=
>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22=
>This document describes the scenarios of end-to-end network slicing, and=
 the framework of network slice mapping between different network segment=
s and network domains. Multiple network slice related identifiers are def=
ined to covers different network scopes.</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22=
>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22=
>The network slice related identifiers of different network scopes can be=
 instantiated with MPLS or IPv6 data plane, which are further described i=
n the following drafts:</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22=
>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22=
><a href=3D=22https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-net=
work-slicing/=22>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-=
network-slicing/</a></span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22=
>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22=
><a href=3D=22https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-iet=
f-network-slicing=22>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-=
e2e-ietf-network-slicing</a></span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22=
>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22=
><a href=3D=22https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2=
e-ietf-network-slicing=22>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-=
spring-sr-e2e-ietf-network-slicing</a></span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22=
>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22=
>Your review and comments are welcome. (Comments on the specific data pla=
ne draft can go to the corresponding WG mail list).</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22=
>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22=
>Best regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22=
>Jie</span></p>
</div>
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F<br />
Teas mailing list<br />
Teas=40ietf.org<br />
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas<br /></blockquote>
</div>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
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Hi Med,

Thanks for all of your comments.

Nearly everything is accepted and included.

Not sure the best way to respond to your Word file, so I embedded my
responses and I'll send it to you under separate cover (no need to spam =
the
mailing list).

There'll be a -12 along soon to capture your improvements.

Best,
Adrian

-----Original Message-----
From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>=20
Sent: 03 May 2021 15:49
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; teas@ietf.org
Cc: 'TEAS WG Chairs' <teas-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt

Hi Adrian, all,=20

FWIW, you may find some comments at:
* pdf:
https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blob/master/draft-ietf-t=
eas
-rfc3272bis-11-rev%20Med.pdf=20
* doc:
https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/master/draft-ietf-te=
as-
rfc3272bis-11-rev%20Med.docx =20

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel
> Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 7 avril 2021 21:24
> =C0=A0: teas@ietf.org
> Cc=A0: 'TEAS WG Chairs' <teas-chairs@ietf.org>
> Objet=A0: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
>=20
> With this version I have filled in the remaining TBDs:
> - small section on intent-based network
> - small section on multi-layer TE (thanks, Lou, for the suggestion)
> - change log from 3272
>=20
> As far as I'm concerned this document is complete modulo review
> comments.
>=20
> It *really* needs review, but I can't force you!
> Maybe you can look at the sections of special interest to you?
> Maybe the original Design Team could take another look?
>=20
> Otherwise: time for WG last call?
>=20
> Thanks,
> Adrian
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: I-D-Announce <i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of
> internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: 07 April 2021 19:25
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: teas@ietf.org
> Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and
> Signaling WG of the IETF.
>=20
>         Title           : Overview and Principles of Internet Traffic
> Engineering
>         Author          : Adrian Farrel
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
> 	Pages           : 91
> 	Date            : 2021-04-07
>=20
> Abstract:
>    This document describes the principles of traffic engineering (TE)
> in
>    the Internet.  The document is intended to promote better
>    understanding of the issues surrounding traffic engineering in IP
>    networks and the networks that support IP networking, and to
> provide
>    a common basis for the development of traffic engineering
>    capabilities for the Internet.  The principles, architectures, and
>    methodologies for performance evaluation and performance
> optimization
>    of operational networks are also discussed.
>=20
>    This work was first published as RFC 3272 in May 2002.  This
> document
>    obsoletes RFC 3272 by making a complete update to bring the text
> in
>    line with best current practices for Internet traffic engineering
> and
>    to include references to the latest relevant work in the IETF.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at
> tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Teas mailing list
> Teas@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

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From nobody Sat May 15 11:45:10 2021
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Overview and Principles of Internet Traffic Engineering
        Author          : Adrian Farrel
	Filename        : draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-12.txt
	Pages           : 90
	Date            : 2021-05-15

Abstract:
   This document describes the principles of traffic engineering (TE) in
   the Internet.  The document is intended to promote better
   understanding of the issues surrounding traffic engineering in IP
   networks and the networks that support IP networking, and to provide
   a common basis for the development of traffic engineering
   capabilities for the Internet.  The principles, architectures, and
   methodologies for performance evaluation and performance optimization
   of operational networks are also discussed.

   This work was first published as RFC 3272 in May 2002.  This document
   obsoletes RFC 3272 by making a complete update to bring the text in
   line with best current practices for Internet traffic engineering and
   to include references to the latest relevant work in the IETF.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-12
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-12

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-12


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



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From nobody Mon May 17 02:09:50 2021
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From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] A draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF network slicing
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Hi Joel,=20

The traffic monitoring may happen at the edge or inside the domain, depends=
 on the required scope of monitoring. For example, a customer may ask for e=
dge-to-edge service monitoring by default, once there is service degradatio=
n, per-hop or per-segment monitoring could be triggered to help figure out =
and fix the problem timely. How the monitoring is performed in the network =
is not the focus of this document, it just shows some information about the=
 end-to-end service may be used by the network nodes for monitoring.

Best regards,
Jie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern
> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 12:05 PM
> To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; teas@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Teas] A draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF network
> slicing
>=20
> Do you mean traffic monitoring at the domain edges?  Or inside the domain=
?
> If at the domain edges, then any mapping technology can also be used for
> monitoring.
> If inside the domain, this places a significant disaggregated statistics =
collection
> load on the internals of the network.
> Edge-to-Edge monitoring by the consumer (client? customer?) of the
> component is clealry useful.  But does not requrie such identification.
>   Nor does it requrie internal disaggregated state reporting.
> the internals presumably will monitor the aggregated behavior.  Which aga=
in
> does not require the identification.
>=20
> Yours,
> Joel
>=20
> On 5/13/2021 11:54 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
> > Hi Joel,
> >
> > Thanks for your comments.
> >
> > The requirement of carrying network slice related identifier in the dat=
a packet
> was described in draft-dong-teas-enhanced-vpn-vtn-scalability and other
> relevant documents. Currently there are several proposals about the
> encapsulation of network slice related identifiers. Based on that, this d=
ocument
> further describes the considerations about the multi-domain IETF network =
slice
> scenario, and the interaction with other technical domains for 5G end-to-=
end
> network slicing.
> >
> > You are right that the path selection, resource allocation and traffic =
handling
> would be based on the identifiers internal to a network domain. As descri=
bed in
> this draft, the end-to-end network slice identifier may be used for traff=
ic
> monitoring at the end-to-end network slice granularity.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Jie
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com]
> >> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2021 12:49 PM
> >> To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; teas@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Teas] A draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF
> >> network slicing
> >>
> >> It is not at all clear that any identifiers are needed inside the
> >> various networks, and specifically it is not clear that an internal
> >> identifier for the end-to-end network slice is needed at the level of
> >> the IETF network slice as is being defined by teas.  Since path
> >> selection, QoS parameter handling, and resource allocation needs to
> >> be handled in aggregate, it seems likely that no such identifier is ne=
eded.
> >>
> >> Yours,
> >> Joel
> >>
> >> On 5/12/2021 10:53 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
> >>> Hi WG,
> >>>
> >>> Recently we published a draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF
> >>> network slicing:
> >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network
> >>> -s
> >>> licing
> >>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-networ
> >>> k-
> >>> slicing>
> >>>
> >>> This document describes the scenarios of end-to-end network slicing,
> >>> and the framework of network slice mapping between different network
> >>> segments and network domains. Multiple network slice related
> >>> identifiers are defined to covers different network scopes.
> >>>
> >>> The network slice related identifiers of different network scopes
> >>> can be instantiated with MPLS or IPv6 data plane, which are further
> >>> described in the following drafts:
> >>>
> >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slic
> >>> in
> >>> g/
> >>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-sli
> >>> ci
> >>> ng/>
> >>>
> >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network
> >>> -s
> >>> licing
> >>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-networ
> >>> k-
> >>> slicing>
> >>>
> >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-ne
> >>> tw
> >>> ork-slicing
> >>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-n
> >>> et
> >>> work-slicing>
> >>>
> >>> Your review and comments are welcome. (Comments on the specific data
> >>> plane draft can go to the corresponding WG mail list).
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>>
> >>> Jie
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Teas mailing list
> >>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
> >>>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Teas mailing list
> Teas@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas


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From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Teas] A draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF network slicing
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--_000_84a5b0dfbd2f4d37ae7bfb6dc6d9794ahuaweicom_--


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To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
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Hi Adrian,=20

Thank you for taking care of the comments. I appreciate in particular the n=
ew section about resource-based access control.=20=20

As indicated in my review, I would restructure section because the logic fo=
r listing these techniques is not clear to me. Please find below a proposal=
 for discussion.

I will send in a separate message a text proposal for the "Transport-based =
TE (was QUIC)" Section.=20

(1)

OLD:
   5.  Review of TE Techniques . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  28
     5.1.  Overview of IETF Projects Related to Traffic Engineering   28
       5.1.1.  Constraint-Based Routing  . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  29
       5.1.2.  Integrated Services . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  31
       5.1.3.  RSVP  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  31
       5.1.4.  Differentiated Services . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  32
       5.1.5.  QUIC  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  33
       5.1.6.  Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS)  . . . . . . . .  34
       5.1.7.  Generalized MPLS (GMPLS)  . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  34
       5.1.8.  IP Performance Metrics  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  35
       5.1.9.  Flow Measurement  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  35
       5.1.10. Endpoint Congestion Management  . . . . . . . . . . .  36
       5.1.11. TE Extensions to the IGPs . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  36
       5.1.12. Link-State BGP  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  37
       5.1.13. Path Computation Element  . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  37
       5.1.14. Application-Layer Traffic Optimization  . . . . . . .  38
       5.1.15. Segment Routing with MPLS Encapsulation (SR-MPLS) . .  39
       5.1.16. Segment Routing Policy  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  40
       5.1.17. Network Virtualization and Abstraction  . . . . . . .  41
       5.1.18. Network Slicing . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  41
       5.1.19. Deterministic Networking  . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  42
       5.1.20. Network TE State Definition and Presentation  . . . .  43
       5.1.21. System Management and Control Interfaces  . . . . . .  43

NEW:
   5.  Review of TE-Related Techniques
                   ^^^^^^^^=20
     5.1.  Overview of IETF Projects Related to Traffic Engineering
       5.1.1.  TE Mechanisms
           5.1.1.1. Integrated Services . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
           5.1.1.2. Differentiated Services with TE Extensions . . . .=20
                    (was Differentiated Services)
           5.1.1.3. Segment Routing Policy  . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
           5.1.1.4. Transport-based TE (was QUIC) . . . . . . . . . . .
           5.1.1.5. Deterministic Networking  . . . . . . . . . . . . .

       5.1.2.  Approaches Relying on TE Mechanisms
           5.1.2.1. Application-Layer Traffic Optimization  . . . . . .
           5.1.2.2. Network Virtualization and Abstraction  . . . . . .
           5.1.2.3. Network Slicing . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

       5.1.3.  Techniques Used by TE Mechanisms
           5.1.3.1.  Constraint-Based Routing  . . . . . . . . . . . .=20
           5.1.3.2.  RSVP  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .=20
           5.1.3.3.  Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS)  . . . . . .=20
           5.1.3.4.  Generalized MPLS (GMPLS)  . . . . . . . . . . . .=20
           5.1.3.5.  IP Performance Metrics  . . . . . . . . . . . . .=20
           5.1.3.6.  Flow Measurement  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
           5.1.3.7.  Endpoint Congestion Management  . . . . . . . . . .
           5.1.3.8.  TE Extensions to the IGPs . . . . . . . . . . . . .
           5.1.3.9.  Link-State BGP  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
           5.1.3.10. Path Computation Element  . . . . . . . . . . . . .
           5.1.3.11. Segment Routing with MPLS Encapsulation (SR-MPLS) .
           5.1.3.12. Network TE State Definition and Presentation  . . .
           5.1.3.13. System Management and Control Interfaces  . . . . .

(2)

OLD:
   This section briefly reviews different traffic engineering approaches
   proposed and implemented in telecommunications and computer networks
   using IETF protocols and architectures.  The discussion is not
   intended to be comprehensive.  It is primarily intended to illuminate
   existing approaches to traffic engineering in the Internet.  A
   historic overview of traffic engineering in telecommunications
   networks is provided in Appendix A, while Appendix B describes
   approaches in other standards bodies.

NEW:
   This section briefly reviews different TE-related approaches proposed
   and implemented in telecommunications and computer networks using
   IETF protocols and architectures.  These approaches are organized
   into three categories: TE mechanisms which adhere to the definition
   provided in Section 1.2, approaches that rely upon TE mechanisms, and
   techniques that are used by TE mechanisms.

   The discussion is not intended to be comprehensive.  It is primarily
   intended to illuminate existing approaches to traffic engineering in
   the Internet.  A historic overview of traffic engineering in
   telecommunications networks is provided in Appendix A, while
   Appendix B describes approaches in other standards bodies.

(3)

Add a table to indicate whether mechanisms that are tagged as "TE are "part=
ial TE" or "full TE" as per the discussion in 1.2. This can be captured by =
indicating which properties are supported by each of them. A table (to be c=
ompleted) is provided below, fwiw:=20

                   +---------------+---------------+---------------+
                   | Policy        | Path Steering | Resource      |
                   |               |               | Management    |
       +-----------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
       | IntServ   | TBC           | TBC           | TBC           |
       | DS-TE     | TBC           | TBC           | TBC           |
       | SR Policy | TBC           | TBC           | TBC           |
       | DetNet    | TBC           | TBC           | TBC           |
       +-----------+---------------+---------------+---------------+

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
> Envoy=E9=A0: samedi 15 mai 2021 19:11
> =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>;
> teas@ietf.org
> Cc=A0: 'TEAS WG Chairs' <teas-chairs@ietf.org>
> Objet=A0: RE: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
>=20
> Hi Med,
>=20
> Thanks for all of your comments.
>=20
> Nearly everything is accepted and included.
>=20
> Not sure the best way to respond to your Word file, so I embedded my
> responses and I'll send it to you under separate cover (no need to
> spam the mailing list).
>=20
> There'll be a -12 along soon to capture your improvements.
>=20
> Best,
> Adrian
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> Sent: 03 May 2021 15:49
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; teas@ietf.org
> Cc: 'TEAS WG Chairs' <teas-chairs@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
>=20
> Hi Adrian, all,
>=20
> FWIW, you may find some comments at:
> * pdf:
> https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blob/master/draft-
> ietf-teas
> -rfc3272bis-11-rev%20Med.pdf
> * doc:
> https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/master/draft-
> ietf-teas-
> rfc3272bis-11-rev%20Med.docx
>=20
> Cheers,
> Med


___________________________________________________________________________=
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From: Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] A draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF network slicing
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Subject: Re: [Teas] A draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF network slicing
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Hi Joel/all,

Indeed, not all usecases necessitate distinguishing packets belonging to di=
fferent slices/aggregates on a transit router. For example, packets of diff=
erent slice/aggregates can share the same queue(s) on specific resource/lin=
k. Slicing of BW resources can still happen in control plane (e.g. assignin=
g max guaranteed bandwidth per slice/aggregate, and/or allowing sharing of =
available bandwidth amongst slice aggregates, etc.). We have described this=
 in draft-bestbar-teas-ns-packet<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draf=
t-bestbar-teas-ns-packet> as the =93control plane=94 slicing mode (3GPP may=
 also refer to this as =93soft slicing=94).


In other cases, assigning dedicated queues per slice aggregate is desirable=
 to achieve certain level of isolation between different slice aggregate tr=
affic (I reference =93isolation=94 requirement from section 4.1.2.1<https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-02#secti=
on-4.1.2.1>. of draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices). In such cases, packet=
s of different slice aggregates will need to distinguishable. We have descr=
ibed two methods in MPLS to distinguish such packets (either by carrying a =
slice-ID in the packet, or by allocating a different label per prefix for d=
ifferent slice/aggregates =96 in draft-bestbar-spring-scalable<https://data=
tracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bestbar-spring-scalable-ns>).



Regards,

Tarek


On 5/13/21, 12:48 AM, "Teas" <teas-bounces@ietf.org> wrote:


It is not at all clear that any identifiers are needed inside the
various networks, and specifically it is not clear that an internal
identifier for the end-to-end network slice is needed at the level of
the IETF network slice as is being defined by teas.  Since path
selection, QoS parameter handling, and resource allocation needs to be
handled in aggregate, it seems likely that no such identifier is needed.

Yours,
Joel

On 5/12/2021 10:53 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
> Hi WG,
>
> Recently we published a draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF
> network slicing:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network-slic=
ing
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network-sli=
cing>
>
> This document describes the scenarios of end-to-end network slicing, and
> the framework of network slice mapping between different network
> segments and network domains. Multiple network slice related identifiers
> are defined to covers different network scopes.
>
> The network slice related identifiers of different network scopes can be
> instantiated with MPLS or IPv6 data plane, which are further described
> in the following drafts:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slicing/
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slicing/=
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network-slic=
ing
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network-sli=
cing>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-network=
-slicing
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-networ=
k-slicing>
>
> Your review and comments are welcome. (Comments on the specific data
> plane draft can go to the corresponding WG mail list).
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jie
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Teas mailing list
> Teas@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Hi Joel/all,<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Indeed, not all use=
cases necessitate distinguishing packets belonging to different slices/aggr=
egates on a transit router. For example, packets of different slice/aggrega=
tes can share the same queue(s) on specific
 resource/link. Slicing of BW resources can still happen in control plane (=
e.g. assigning max guaranteed bandwidth per slice/aggregate, and/or allowin=
g sharing of available bandwidth amongst slice aggregates, etc.). We have d=
escribed this in
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bestbar-teas-ns-pack=
et">draft-bestbar-teas-ns-packet</a> as the =93control plane=94 slicing mod=
e (3GPP may also refer to this as =93soft slicing=94).<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif">In other cases, assigning dedicated queues per slice aggregate is des=
irable to achieve certain level of isolation between different slice aggreg=
ate traffic (I reference =93isolation=94 requirement from section</span><sp=
an class=3D"MsoHyperlink"><b><span style=3D"color:black"> </span></b></span=
><b><span style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc=
/html/draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-02#section-4.1.2.1">4.1.2.1</a>. =
of</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,sans-serif"> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices). In such cases, packets=
 of different slice aggregates will need to distinguishable. We have descri=
bed two methods in MPLS to distinguish such packets (either by carrying a s=
lice-ID in the packet, or by allocating a different label per prefix for di=
fferent slice/aggregates =96 in <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc=
/html/draft-bestbar-spring-scalable-ns">draft-bestbar-spring-scalable</a>).=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif">Tarek</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">On 5/13/21, 12:48 AM, &qu=
ot;Teas&quot; &lt;teas-bounces@ietf.org&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">It is not at all clear th=
at any identifiers are needed inside the
<br>
various networks, and specifically it is not clear that an internal <br>
identifier for the end-to-end network slice is needed at the level of <br>
the IETF network slice as is being defined by teas.&nbsp; Since path <br>
selection, QoS parameter handling, and resource allocation needs to be <br>
handled in aggregate, it seems likely that no such identifier is needed.<br=
>
<br>
Yours,<br>
Joel<br>
<br>
On 5/12/2021 10:53 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi WG,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Recently we published a draft on the framework for end-to-end IETF <br=
>
&gt; network slicing: <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-iet=
f-network-slicing">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e-ietf-network-slicin=
g</a> <br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-e2e=
-ietf-network-slicing">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-teas-=
e2e-ietf-network-slicing</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This document describes the scenarios of end-to-end network slicing, a=
nd <br>
&gt; the framework of network slice mapping between different network <br>
&gt; segments and network domains. Multiple network slice related identifie=
rs <br>
&gt; are defined to covers different network scopes.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The network slice related identifiers of different network scopes can =
be <br>
&gt; instantiated with MPLS or IPv6 data plane, which are further described=
 <br>
&gt; in the following drafts:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-net=
work-slicing/">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-network-slicing/</a=
> <br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf=
-network-slicing/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-e2e-ietf-=
network-slicing/</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-iet=
f-network-slicing">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e-ietf-network-slicin=
g</a> <br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-e2e=
-ietf-network-slicing">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-6man-=
e2e-ietf-network-slicing</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2=
e-ietf-network-slicing">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-sr-e2e-ietf-network-s=
licing</a>
<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-spring-s=
r-e2e-ietf-network-slicing">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-=
spring-sr-e2e-ietf-network-slicing</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Your review and comments are welcome. (Comments on the specific data <=
br>
&gt; plane draft can go to the corresponding WG mail list).<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Jie<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Teas mailing list<br>
&gt; Teas@ietf.org<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Teas mailing list<br>
Teas@ietf.org<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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From: Italo Busi <Italo.Busi@huawei.com>
To: "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Cancellling today ACTN POI call
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The ACTN POI call planned for today (May 18) has been cancelled

The next ACTN POI call is scheduled on May 25 at 4:30am EDT/10:30am CEST/4:=
30pm China (Slot 2)

Italo


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The ACTN POI call planned for today (May 18) has bee=
n cancelled<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The next ACTN POI call is scheduled on May 25 at 4:3=
0am EDT/10:30am CEST/4:30pm China (Slot 2)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"IT">Italo<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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CC: 'TEAS WG Chairs' <teas-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
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Hi Adrian, all,

> I will send in a separate message a text proposal for the "Transport-
> based TE (was QUIC)" Section.
>=20
> NEW:
>    5.  Review of TE-Related Techniques
>                    ^^^^^^^^
>      5.1.  Overview of IETF Projects Related to Traffic Engineering
>        5.1.1.  TE Mechanisms
>            5.1.1.4. Transport-based TE (was QUIC) . . . . . . . . .=20

As promised, please find below a proposal fwiw:

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
X.  Transport-based TE (was QUIC)

   In addition to IP-based TE mechanisms, transport-based TE approaches
   can be considered in specific deployment contexts (e.g., data
   centers, multi-homing).  For example, the 3GPP defines the
   Access Traffic Steering, Switching, and Splitting (ATSSS) service
   that is applicable between multiple access networks.  The ATSSS
   functions are described below:

   Access Traffic Steering:  is the selection of an access network for a
      new flow and the transfer of the traffic of that flow over the
      selected access network.

   Access Traffic Switching:  is the migration of all packets of an
      ongoing flow from one access network to another access network.
      Only one access network is in use at a time.

   Access Traffic Splitting:  is about forwarding the packets of a flow
      across multiple access networks simultaneously.

   Hosts and specific network devices are provided by means of the
   control plane with a set or policies that specify which flows are
   eligible to the ATSSS service.  The traffic that matches an ATSSS
   policy can be distributed among the available access networks
   following one of these modes:

   Active-Standby:   The traffic is forwarded via a specific access
      (called 'active access') and switched to another access (called
      'standby access') when the active access is unavailable.

   Priority-based:   Network accesses are assigned priority levels that
      indicate which network access to be used first.  The traffic
      associated with the matching flow will be steered on the network
      access with a high priority till congestion is detected, then the
      overflow will be forwarded over a low priority access.

   Load-Balancing:   The traffic is distributed among the available
      access networks following a distribution ratio (e.g., 75% via a
      first network access, 25% via a second network access).

   Smallest Delay:   The traffic is forwarded via the access that
      presents the smallest round-trip-time (RTT).

   For resource management purposes, hosts and involved network devices
   support means such as congestion control, RTT measurement, and packet
   scheduling.=20=20

   For TCP traffic, Multipath TCP [RFC8684] and the 0-RTT
   Convert Protocol [RFC8803] are used to provide the ATSSS service.

   Note that for QUIC [I-D.ietf-quic-transport], it is possible to
   support the switching and steering functions, but splitting is not
   yet supported.  Indeed, QUIC supports a connection migration
   procedure which allows peers to change their transport coordinates
   (IP addresses, port numbers) without breaking the underlying QUIC
   connection.

   The reader may refer to Section 2.5 of [I-D.irtf-panrg-questions] for
   some research investigation areas.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Cheers,
Med

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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
CC: "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
Thread-Index: AQHipGASW6xaEWNZaLDTKoBY1XfHxQIm5M9WAtxBG/eqpfae8IAAAkeAgASKaMA=
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 15:00:33 +0000
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References: <161781991426.15865.4191431758501856588@ietfa.amsl.com> <06a201d72be3$8e1e9b20$aa5bd160$@olddog.co.uk> <2544_1620053359_60900D6F_2544_75_1_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933035375DEC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <0c1401d749b1$4ea76030$ebf62090$@olddog.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
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Hi Adrian,=20

Thank you for the replies. Here is some few follow-up points:

* s/within the control plane or by controllers/within the control or manage=
ment plane

* "I'm not clear about the term "resource-based access control". Do you mea=
n "policing"? If so, yes. Policing is mentioned just two sentences later"

I actually meant resource-based admission control. This is now covered by t=
he new section you added. Thanks.=20

* " The word "economically" is, I think, giving you a different meaning to =
what is intended. I think the word is not intended to just mean "financiall=
y economical", but also to mean "not wasteful or profligate." This is simil=
ar to "efficient", but not the same. In this context, "economically" would =
certainly apply to power use, money, and any other resource.
I spent a little time trying to think of an equivalent word (because if it =
is causing you unrest, it will do the same for other readers), but I was un=
able to think of one.":=20

The concern I had is that the observed behavior is conditioned by the metri=
cs/attributes/information that can be disseminated and acted upon. Optimizi=
ng the forwarding with a set of metrics as inputs does not guarantee that t=
he overall forwarding is economically-optimized. That's why I provided the =
example of power-consumption. Such optimization is not currently supported =
at the level of a network (despite that some optimization can be made at th=
e node/card level).

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
> Envoy=E9=A0: samedi 15 mai 2021 19:40
> =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> Objet=A0: RE: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
>=20
> Here's the file.
>=20
> Many thanks for looking at this.
>=20
> Adrian
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
> Sent: 15 May 2021 18:11
> To: 'mohamed.boucadair@orange.com' <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>;
> 'teas@ietf.org' <teas@ietf.org>
> Cc: 'TEAS WG Chairs' <teas-chairs@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
>=20
> Hi Med,
>=20
> Thanks for all of your comments.
>=20
> Nearly everything is accepted and included.
>=20
> Not sure the best way to respond to your Word file, so I embedded my
> responses and I'll send it to you under separate cover (no need to
> spam the mailing list).
>=20
> There'll be a -12 along soon to capture your improvements.
>=20
> Best,
> Adrian
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> Sent: 03 May 2021 15:49
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; teas@ietf.org
> Cc: 'TEAS WG Chairs' <teas-chairs@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
>=20
> Hi Adrian, all,
>=20
> FWIW, you may find some comments at:
> * pdf:
> https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blob/master/draft-
> ietf-teas
> -rfc3272bis-11-rev%20Med.pdf
> * doc:
> https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/master/draft-
> ietf-teas-
> rfc3272bis-11-rev%20Med.docx
>=20
> Cheers,
> Med
>=20
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De=A0: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian
> Farrel
> > Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 7 avril 2021 21:24 =C0=A0: teas@ietf.org Cc=A0: '=
TEAS
> WG
> > Chairs' <teas-chairs@ietf.org> Objet=A0: Re: [Teas] I-D Action:
> > draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
> >
> > With this version I have filled in the remaining TBDs:
> > - small section on intent-based network
> > - small section on multi-layer TE (thanks, Lou, for the suggestion)
> > - change log from 3272
> >
> > As far as I'm concerned this document is complete modulo review
> > comments.
> >
> > It *really* needs review, but I can't force you!
> > Maybe you can look at the sections of special interest to you?
> > Maybe the original Design Team could take another look?
> >
> > Otherwise: time for WG last call?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Adrian
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: I-D-Announce <i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of
> > internet-drafts@ietf.org
> > Sent: 07 April 2021 19:25
> > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> > Cc: teas@ietf.org
> > Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
> >
> >
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> > directories.
> > This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture
> and
> > Signaling WG of the IETF.
> >
> >         Title           : Overview and Principles of Internet
> Traffic
> > Engineering
> >         Author          : Adrian Farrel
> > 	Filename        : draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
> > 	Pages           : 91
> > 	Date            : 2021-04-07
> >
> > Abstract:
> >    This document describes the principles of traffic engineering
> (TE)
> > in
> >    the Internet.  The document is intended to promote better
> >    understanding of the issues surrounding traffic engineering in
> IP
> >    networks and the networks that support IP networking, and to
> > provide
> >    a common basis for the development of traffic engineering
> >    capabilities for the Internet.  The principles, architectures,
> and
> >    methodologies for performance evaluation and performance
> > optimization
> >    of operational networks are also discussed.
> >
> >    This work was first published as RFC 3272 in May 2002.  This
> > document
> >    obsoletes RFC 3272 by making a complete update to bring the text
> in
> >    line with best current practices for Internet traffic
> engineering
> > and
> >    to include references to the latest relevant work in the IETF.
> >
> >
> > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis/
> >
> > There are also htmlized versions available at:
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
> >
> > A diff from the previous version is available at:
> > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
> >
> >
> > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at
> > tools.ietf.org.
> >
> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > I-D-Announce mailing list
> > I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or
> > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Teas mailing list
> > Teas@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>=20
> _____________________________________________________________________
> _______
> _____________________________________________
>=20
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Shunsuke Homma <shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
Thread-Index: AQHXQu8D3IC4uv87EEaTxthPpP8Pa6rpadCA
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 15:30:08 +0000
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From: Italo Busi <Italo.Busi@huawei.com>
To: "'netmod@ietf.org'" <netmod@ietf.org>
CC: "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Question about optional data nodes in YANG
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Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 17:12:21 +0000
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Subject: [Teas] Question about optional data nodes in YANG
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We have got a question about how to deal with YANG optional data nodes and =
in particular how can a client know which optional data node has been imple=
mented by a server.

We think that there is no issue with config=3Dfalse data nodes. When the cl=
ient retrieves a YANG tree from the operational datastore it will not get t=
he data nodes that are not implemented by the server, as reported in sectio=
n 5.3 of RFC8342:

If no value is returned for a given node, then
this implies that the node is not used by the device.

Is our understanding correct?

The doubt we have is about the config=3Dtrue data nodes.

How can the client know whether the server supports the configuration of an=
 optional config=3Dtrue data node before trying to configure them and getti=
ng an error message?

We understand that it is possible to know whether a YANG model or a feature=
 of the YANG model (i.e. a group of data nodes) is supported by the server.=
 The question is rather on specific data nodes with config=3Dtrue.

We have found scenarios where it could be useful to implement a sub-set of =
optional data nodes (profile) of an IETF standard YANG model, but it is not=
 very clear how a client can understand which profile has been implemented =
by the server.

Some examples of profiles of an IETF standard YANG model are provided in:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-busi-teas-te-topology-profiles

Thanks, Aihua and Italo


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We have got a question about how to deal with YANG o=
ptional data nodes and in particular how can a client know which optional d=
ata node has been implemented by a server.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We think that there is no issue with config=3Dfalse =
data nodes. When the client retrieves a YANG tree from the operational data=
store it will not get the data nodes that are not implemented by the server=
, as reported in section 5.3 of RFC8342:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">If no value is returned for a given node, then=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">this implies that the node is not used by the =
device.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is our understanding correct?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The doubt we have is about the config=3Dtrue data no=
des.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How can the client know whether the server supports =
the configuration of an optional config=3Dtrue data node before trying to c=
onfigure them and getting an error message?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We understand that it is possible to know whether a =
YANG model or a feature of the YANG model (i.e. a group of data nodes) is s=
upported by the server. The question is rather on specific data nodes with =
config=3Dtrue.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We have found scenarios where it could be useful to =
implement a sub-set of optional data nodes (profile) of an IETF standard YA=
NG model, but it is not very clear how a client can understand which profil=
e has been implemented by the server.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Some examples of profiles of an IETF standard YANG m=
odel are provided in:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dra=
ft-busi-teas-te-topology-profiles">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dr=
aft-busi-teas-te-topology-profiles</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks, Aihua and Italo<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 10:34:46 -0700
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To: Italo Busi <Italo.Busi@huawei.com>
Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] [netmod] Question about optional data nodes in YANG
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On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 10:12 AM Italo Busi <Italo.Busi@huawei.com> wrote:

> We have got a question about how to deal with YANG optional data nodes and
> in particular how can a client know which optional data node has been
> implemented by a server.
>
>
>
> We think that there is no issue with config=false data nodes. When the
> client retrieves a YANG tree from the operational datastore it will not get
> the data nodes that are not implemented by the server, as reported in
> section 5.3 of RFC8342:
>
>
>
> If no value is returned for a given node, then
>
> this implies that the node is not used by the device.
>
>
>
> Is our understanding correct?
>
>
>


The server is expected to advertise a deviation for not-supported for every
subtree
it does not implement.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-7.20.3.2



       deviation /base:system/base:daytime {
         deviate not-supported;
       }



Andy




> The doubt we have is about the config=true data nodes.
>
>
>
> How can the client know whether the server supports the configuration of
> an optional config=true data node before trying to configure them and
> getting an error message?
>
>
>
> We understand that it is possible to know whether a YANG model or a
> feature of the YANG model (i.e. a group of data nodes) is supported by the
> server. The question is rather on specific data nodes with config=true.
>
>
>
> We have found scenarios where it could be useful to implement a sub-set of
> optional data nodes (profile) of an IETF standard YANG model, but it is not
> very clear how a client can understand which profile has been implemented
> by the server.
>
>
>
> Some examples of profiles of an IETF standard YANG model are provided in:
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-busi-teas-te-topology-profiles
>
>
>
> Thanks, Aihua and Italo
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>

--000000000000d0610405c2b23eb0
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 10:12 AM Ital=
o Busi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Italo.Busi@huawei.com">Italo.Busi@huawei.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_5968375303506929878WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We have got a question about how to deal with YANG o=
ptional data nodes and in particular how can a client know which optional d=
ata node has been implemented by a server.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We think that there is no issue with config=3Dfalse =
data nodes. When the client retrieves a YANG tree from the operational data=
store it will not get the data nodes that are not implemented by the server=
, as reported in section 5.3 of RFC8342:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Courier New&quot;">If no value is returned for a given node, then<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Courier New&quot;">this implies that the node is not used by the de=
vice.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is our understanding correct?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br><=
/div><div><br></div><div>The server is expected to advertise a deviation fo=
r not-supported for every subtree</div><div>it does not implement.</div><di=
v><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#s=
ection-7.20.3.2">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-7.20=
.3.2</a><br></div><div><br></div><div><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D=
"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)"><br class=3D"gmail-Apple-interchange-newline">
       deviation /base:system/base:daytime {
         deviate not-supported;
       }</pre></div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><d=
iv><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_5968375303506=
929878WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The doubt we have is about the config=3Dtrue data no=
des.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How can the client know whether the server supports =
the configuration of an optional config=3Dtrue data node before trying to c=
onfigure them and getting an error message?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We understand that it is possible to know whether a =
YANG model or a feature of the YANG model (i.e. a group of data nodes) is s=
upported by the server. The question is rather on specific data nodes with =
config=3Dtrue.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We have found scenarios where it could be useful to =
implement a sub-set of optional data nodes (profile) of an IETF standard YA=
NG model, but it is not very clear how a client can understand which profil=
e has been implemented by the server.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Some examples of profiles of an IETF standard YANG m=
odel are provided in:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dra=
ft-busi-teas-te-topology-profiles" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/html/draft-busi-teas-te-topology-profiles</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks, Aihua and Italo<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>
netmod mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000d0610405c2b23eb0--


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From: Italo Busi <Italo.Busi@huawei.com>
To: 'Andy Bierman' <andy@yumaworks.com>
CC: "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] Question about optional data nodes in YANG
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 11:35:26 -0700
Message-ID: <CABCOCHSzPQdNVhku5ivFSogTuJgYo8PYinUfT5MSXoRDv1Q-8w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Italo Busi <Italo.Busi@huawei.com>
Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] [netmod] Question about optional data nodes in YANG
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On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 11:22 AM Italo Busi <Italo.Busi@huawei.com> wrote:

> Then, what would be the difference between an optional and a mandatory
> data node?
>
>
>

Do not confuse "mandatory to implement" with "mandatory that a node be
present".

Mandatory to implement is easy:  If there is an if-feature conditional that
is applied to
a node or one of its ancestors, then it is optional to implement. Otherwise
it is mandatory to implement.


> In some RFC8795 implementations, the support or not support of a data nod=
e
> may also depend on the specific network-type so in this case the data nod=
e
> cannot be marked as not-supported
>
>
>

This is a different issue.
Server capabilities specific to a data model should be handled in a related
module.


Italo
>
>
>

Andy


> *From:* Andy Bierman [mailto:andy@yumaworks.com]
> *Sent:* mercoled=C3=AC 19 maggio 2021 19:35
> *To:* Italo Busi <Italo.Busi@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* netmod@ietf.org; teas@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [netmod] Question about optional data nodes in YANG
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 10:12 AM Italo Busi <Italo.Busi@huawei.com> wrote=
:
>
> We have got a question about how to deal with YANG optional data nodes an=
d
> in particular how can a client know which optional data node has been
> implemented by a server.
>
>
>
> We think that there is no issue with config=3Dfalse data nodes. When the
> client retrieves a YANG tree from the operational datastore it will not g=
et
> the data nodes that are not implemented by the server, as reported in
> section 5.3 of RFC8342:
>
>
>
> If no value is returned for a given node, then
>
> this implies that the node is not used by the device.
>
>
>
> Is our understanding correct?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The server is expected to advertise a deviation for not-supported for
> every subtree
>
> it does not implement.
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950#section-7.20.3.2
>
>
>
>
>
>        deviation /base:system/base:daytime {
>
>          deviate not-supported;
>
>        }
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The doubt we have is about the config=3Dtrue data nodes.
>
>
>
> How can the client know whether the server supports the configuration of
> an optional config=3Dtrue data node before trying to configure them and
> getting an error message?
>
>
>
> We understand that it is possible to know whether a YANG model or a
> feature of the YANG model (i.e. a group of data nodes) is supported by th=
e
> server. The question is rather on specific data nodes with config=3Dtrue.
>
>
>
> We have found scenarios where it could be useful to implement a sub-set o=
f
> optional data nodes (profile) of an IETF standard YANG model, but it is n=
ot
> very clear how a client can understand which profile has been implemented
> by the server.
>
>
>
> Some examples of profiles of an IETF standard YANG model are provided in:
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-busi-teas-te-topology-profile=
s
>
>
>
> Thanks, Aihua and Italo
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 11:22 AM Ital=
o Busi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Italo.Busi@huawei.com">Italo.Busi@huawei.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-7265518142752675708WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Then, what would be the difference between a=
n optional and a mandatory data node?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0</span></p></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>Do not confuse &quot;mandatory to implement&quot; =
with &quot;mandatory that a node be present&quot;.</div><div><br></div><div=
>Mandatory to implement is easy:=C2=A0 If there is an if-feature conditiona=
l that is applied to</div><div>a node or one of its ancestors, then it is o=
ptional to implement. Otherwise it is mandatory to implement.</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-=
US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-7265518142752675708WordSection1"><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:=
rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In some RFC8795 implementations, the support=
 or not support of a data node may also depend on the specific network-type=
 so in this case the data node cannot be
 marked as not-supported<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0</span></p></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>This is a different issue.</div><div>Server capabi=
lities specific to a data model should be handled in a related module.</div=
><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-7265518142752675708WordSec=
tion1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Italo<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-7265518142752675708__MailEndCompose"><=
span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73=
,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0</span></a></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-7265518142752675708WordSe=
ction1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-7265518142752675708__MailEndCo=
mpose"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:r=
gb(31,73,125)"><u></u></span></a></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"> Andy Bierman [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> mercoled=C3=AC 19 maggio 2021 19:35<br>
<b>To:</b> Italo Busi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Italo.Busi@huawei.com" target=
=3D"_blank">Italo.Busi@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf=
.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org<=
/a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [netmod] Question about optional data nodes in YANG<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 10:12 AM Italo Busi &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Italo.Busi@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">Italo.Busi@huawei.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We have got a question about how to deal with YANG o=
ptional data nodes and in particular how can a client know which optional d=
ata node has been implemented by a server.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We think that there is no issue with config=3Dfalse =
data nodes. When the client retrieves a YANG tree from the operational data=
store it will not get the data nodes that are not implemented
 by the server, as reported in section 5.3 of RFC8342:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">If no value is returned=
 for a given node, then</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">this implies that the n=
ode is not used by the device.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is our understanding correct?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The server is expected to advertise a deviation for =
not-supported for every subtree<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">it does not implement.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc=
7950#section-7.20.3.2" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/h=
tml/rfc7950#section-7.20.3.2</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"color:black"><br><br><u></u=
><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 devia=
tion /base:system/base:daytime {<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 deviate not-supported;<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<u><=
/u><u></u></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The doubt we have is about the config=3Dtrue data no=
des.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How can the client know whether the server supports =
the configuration of an optional config=3Dtrue data node before trying to c=
onfigure them and getting an error message?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We understand that it is possible to know whether a =
YANG model or a feature of the YANG model (i.e. a group of data nodes) is s=
upported by the server. The question is rather on
 specific data nodes with config=3Dtrue.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We have found scenarios where it could be useful to =
implement a sub-set of optional data nodes (profile) of an IETF standard YA=
NG model, but it is not very clear how a client can
 understand which profile has been implemented by the server.<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Some examples of profiles of an IETF standard YANG m=
odel are provided in:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dra=
ft-busi-teas-te-topology-profiles" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/html/draft-busi-teas-te-topology-profiles</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks, Aihua and Italo<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
netmod mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Shunsuke Homma <shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 00:05:13 +0900
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Thanks, Med. I got that "customer" can be used for both cases, and I'm ok
to use it.

Regards,

Shunsuke

On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 12:30 AM <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:

> Hi Shunsuke,
>
>
>
> =E2=80=9CAs far as I read other comments on the terms, most of people see=
m to
> focuses on use cases where IETF network slices are provided as a type of
> network services (i.g., case1), and I=E2=80=99d like to confirm if case2 =
is also in
> our scope and =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D can cover both cases. (I persona=
lly want to avoid
> using different terms depending on assumed use cases).=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> I agree with you that both should be in scope. I don=E2=80=99t see slicin=
g
> different compared to other network services. The =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=
=9D can be used
> for both internal and external cases.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Med
>
>
>
> *De :* Shunsuke Homma [mailto:shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com]
> *Envoy=C3=A9 :* vendredi 7 mai 2021 04:53
> *=C3=80 :* Oscar Gonz=C3=A1lez de Dios <oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.c=
om>
> *Cc :* Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>; adrian@olddog.co.uk; BOUCADAIR Mohamed
> TGI/OLN <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>; teas@ietf.org
> *Objet :* Re: [Teas] Moving forward with
> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Firstly, I also follow the WG consensus, and I=E2=80=99m ok to use =E2=80=
=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D if
> WG prefers it.
>
>
>
> I assume there are mainly two types of use cases on (IETF) network slices=
:
>
> 1. Providing slices to externals(customers) as a network service
>
> 2. Operating some internal network resources with the same slice system
> with case1
>
>
>
> As far as I read other comments on the terms, most of people seem to
> focuses on use cases where IETF network slices are provided as a type of
> network services (i.g., case1), and I=E2=80=99d like to confirm if case2 =
is also in
> our scope and =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D can cover both cases. (I persona=
lly want to avoid
> using different terms depending on assumed use cases).
>
>
>
>
>
> Btw, I agree with that slice management would be important, and we=E2=80=
=99ll need
> to clarify what =E2=80=9Ccustomers=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cproviders=E2=80=
=9D can do on slice managements. In
> my memory, the NS-DT=E2=80=99s study was started with an assumption that =
resources
> should be abstracted from several reasons, such as usability, scalability=
,
> security, etc. In this assumption, in my understanding, who controls
> network resources will be always slice provider (i.e., the owner of NSC).
> In other words, customers never manage resources structuring a slice
> directly, and a customer will send a service request to a slice
> provider/NSC when he/she wants to create/change/delete a slice. (I think
> this is fit to operation models considered in other SDOs such as TMF.)
>
>
>
> What can be done via service request will depend on design of slice
> service, and the current definition part provides just minimal sets of
> selectable parameters as SLOs. More details are provided in NBI drafts.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Shunsuke
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________=
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--000000000000ad1e2005c2d86352
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks, Med. I got that &quot;customer&quot; can be used f=
or both cases, and I&#39;m ok to use it.<div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><=
div><br></div><div>Shunsuke</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 12:30 AM &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_3938285138599775353WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">Hi Shunsuke,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=E2=80=9C</span><span style=3D"color:black">As f=
ar as I read other comments on the terms, most of people seem to focuses on=
 use cases where IETF network slices are provided as a
 type of network services (i.g., case1), and I=E2=80=99d like to confirm if=
 case2 is also in our scope and =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D can cover both c=
ases. (I personally want to avoid using different terms depending on assume=
d use cases).=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">I agree with you that both should be in scope. I=
 don=E2=80=99t see slicing different compared to other network services. Th=
e =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D can be used for both internal and external
 cases. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">Med<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">De=C2=A0:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Shunsuke Homma [mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">shunsuke.homma.=
ietf@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0:</b> vendredi 7 mai 2021 04:53<br>
<b>=C3=80=C2=A0:</b> Oscar Gonz=C3=A1lez de Dios &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:osca=
r.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com" target=3D"_blank">oscar.gonzalezdedios@tel=
efonica.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc=C2=A0:</b> Loa Andersson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_=
blank">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"=
_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>; BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@ora=
nge.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@ie=
tf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet=C2=A0:</b> Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-net=
work-slices<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:1pt none white;padding:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:1pt none white;padding:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:1pt none white;padding:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Firstly, I also follow the WG consensus, and I=E2=80=
=99m ok to use =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D if WG prefers it.<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:1pt none white;padding:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:1pt none white;padding:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I assume there are mainly two types of use cases on =
(IETF) network slices:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:1pt none white;padding:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">1. Providing slices to externals(customers) as a net=
work service=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:1pt none white;padding:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">2. Operating some internal network resources with th=
e same slice system with case1<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:1pt none white;padding:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:1pt none white;padding:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As far as I read other comments on the terms, most o=
f people seem to focuses on use cases where IETF network slices are provide=
d as a type of network services (i.g., case1), and I=E2=80=99d like to conf=
irm if case2 is also in our scope and =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D
 can cover both cases. (I personally want to avoid using different terms de=
pending on assumed use cases).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:1pt none white;padding:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:1pt none white;padding:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:1pt none white;padding:0cm">
<p class=3D"gmail-m_3938285138599775353p1" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt=
;font-stretch:normal"><span class=3D"gmail-m_3938285138599775353s1"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:13pt;color:black">Btw, I agree with that slice management=
 would be important, and we=E2=80=99ll need to clarify what =E2=80=9Ccustom=
ers=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cproviders=E2=80=9D can
 do on slice managements. In my memory, the NS-DT=E2=80=99s study was start=
ed with an assumption that resources should be abstracted from several reas=
ons, such as usability, scalability, security, etc. In this assumption, in =
my understanding, who controls network resources
 will be always slice provider (i.e., the owner of NSC). In other words, cu=
stomers never manage resources structuring a slice directly, and a customer=
 will send a service request to a slice provider/NSC when he/she wants to c=
reate/change/delete a slice. (I
 think this is fit to operation models considered in other SDOs such as TMF=
.)=C2=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:13pt;color:black"><u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_3938285138599775353p2" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt=
;font-stretch:normal;min-height:20.3px">
<span style=3D"font-size:13pt;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_3938285138599775353p1" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt=
;font-stretch:normal"><span class=3D"gmail-m_3938285138599775353s1"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:13pt;color:black">What can be done via service request wi=
ll depend on design of slice service, and the current definition part provi=
des just
 minimal sets of selectable parameters as SLOs. More details are provided i=
n NBI drafts.</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:13pt;color:black"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_3938285138599775353p1" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt=
;font-stretch:normal"><span style=3D"font-size:13pt;color:black"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_3938285138599775353p1" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt=
;font-stretch:normal"><span class=3D"gmail-m_3938285138599775353s1"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:13pt;color:black">Regards,</span></span><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:13pt;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_3938285138599775353p1" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt=
;font-stretch:normal"><span style=3D"font-size:13pt;color:black"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_3938285138599775353p1" style=3D"margin-right:0cm;margin=
-left:5.25pt;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-stretch:normal">
<span class=3D"gmail-m_3938285138599775353s1"><span style=3D"font-size:13pt=
;color:black">Shunsuke=C2=A0</span></span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
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</pre></div>

</blockquote></div>

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Hi Adrian

I see you published a version 12.  I went through all of MEDs updates in
version 11 and ensured that my updates are mutually exclusive no overlap of
MEDs updates.

I built my updated on version 11.  I am almost done and will send out
tomorrow night.

Thanks

Gyan

On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 11:00 AM <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:

> Hi Adrian,
>
> Thank you for the replies. Here is some few follow-up points:
>
> * s/within the control plane or by controllers/within the control or
> management plane
>
> * "I'm not clear about the term "resource-based access control". Do you
> mean "policing"? If so, yes. Policing is mentioned just two sentences lat=
er"
>
> I actually meant resource-based admission control. This is now covered by
> the new section you added. Thanks.
>
> * " The word "economically" is, I think, giving you a different meaning t=
o
> what is intended. I think the word is not intended to just mean
> "financially economical", but also to mean "not wasteful or profligate."
> This is similar to "efficient", but not the same. In this context,
> "economically" would certainly apply to power use, money, and any other
> resource.
> I spent a little time trying to think of an equivalent word (because if i=
t
> is causing you unrest, it will do the same for other readers), but I was
> unable to think of one.":
>
> The concern I had is that the observed behavior is conditioned by the
> metrics/attributes/information that can be disseminated and acted upon.
> Optimizing the forwarding with a set of metrics as inputs does not
> guarantee that the overall forwarding is economically-optimized. That's w=
hy
> I provided the example of power-consumption. Such optimization is not
> currently supported at the level of a network (despite that some
> optimization can be made at the node/card level).
>
> Cheers,
> Med
>
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
> > Envoy=C3=A9 : samedi 15 mai 2021 19:40
> > =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> > Objet : RE: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
> >
> > Here's the file.
> >
> > Many thanks for looking at this.
> >
> > Adrian
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
> > Sent: 15 May 2021 18:11
> > To: 'mohamed.boucadair@orange.com' <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>;
> > 'teas@ietf.org' <teas@ietf.org>
> > Cc: 'TEAS WG Chairs' <teas-chairs@ietf.org>
> > Subject: RE: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
> >
> > Hi Med,
> >
> > Thanks for all of your comments.
> >
> > Nearly everything is accepted and included.
> >
> > Not sure the best way to respond to your Word file, so I embedded my
> > responses and I'll send it to you under separate cover (no need to
> > spam the mailing list).
> >
> > There'll be a -12 along soon to capture your improvements.
> >
> > Best,
> > Adrian
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
> > Sent: 03 May 2021 15:49
> > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; teas@ietf.org
> > Cc: 'TEAS WG Chairs' <teas-chairs@ietf.org>
> > Subject: RE: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
> >
> > Hi Adrian, all,
> >
> > FWIW, you may find some comments at:
> > * pdf:
> > https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blob/master/draft-
> > ietf-teas
> > -rfc3272bis-11-rev%20Med.pdf
> > * doc:
> > https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/master/draft-
> > ietf-teas-
> > rfc3272bis-11-rev%20Med.docx
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Med
> >
> > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian
> > Farrel
> > > Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 7 avril 2021 21:24 =C3=80 : teas@ietf.org Cc :=
 'TEAS
> > WG
> > > Chairs' <teas-chairs@ietf.org> Objet : Re: [Teas] I-D Action:
> > > draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
> > >
> > > With this version I have filled in the remaining TBDs:
> > > - small section on intent-based network
> > > - small section on multi-layer TE (thanks, Lou, for the suggestion)
> > > - change log from 3272
> > >
> > > As far as I'm concerned this document is complete modulo review
> > > comments.
> > >
> > > It *really* needs review, but I can't force you!
> > > Maybe you can look at the sections of special interest to you?
> > > Maybe the original Design Team could take another look?
> > >
> > > Otherwise: time for WG last call?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Adrian
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: I-D-Announce <i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of
> > > internet-drafts@ietf.org
> > > Sent: 07 April 2021 19:25
> > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> > > Cc: teas@ietf.org
> > > Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
> > >
> > >
> > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> > > directories.
> > > This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture
> > and
> > > Signaling WG of the IETF.
> > >
> > >         Title           : Overview and Principles of Internet
> > Traffic
> > > Engineering
> > >         Author          : Adrian Farrel
> > >     Filename        : draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
> > >     Pages           : 91
> > >     Date            : 2021-04-07
> > >
> > > Abstract:
> > >    This document describes the principles of traffic engineering
> > (TE)
> > > in
> > >    the Internet.  The document is intended to promote better
> > >    understanding of the issues surrounding traffic engineering in
> > IP
> > >    networks and the networks that support IP networking, and to
> > > provide
> > >    a common basis for the development of traffic engineering
> > >    capabilities for the Internet.  The principles, architectures,
> > and
> > >    methodologies for performance evaluation and performance
> > > optimization
> > >    of operational networks are also discussed.
> > >
> > >    This work was first published as RFC 3272 in May 2002.  This
> > > document
> > >    obsoletes RFC 3272 by making a complete update to bring the text
> > in
> > >    line with best current practices for Internet traffic
> > engineering
> > > and
> > >    to include references to the latest relevant work in the IETF.
> > >
> > >
> > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis/
> > >
> > > There are also htmlized versions available at:
> > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
> > >
> > > A diff from the previous version is available at:
> > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
> > >
> > >
> > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> > > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at
> > > tools.ietf.org.
> > >
> > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > I-D-Announce mailing list
> > > I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> > > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or
> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Teas mailing list
> > > Teas@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
> >
> > _____________________________________________________________________
> > _______
> > _____________________________________________
> >
> > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
> > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses,
> > exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message
> > par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi
> > que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles
> > d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete
> > altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
> >
> > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or
> > privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not
> > be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender
> > and delete this message and its attachments.
> > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have
> > been modified, changed or falsified.
> > Thank you.
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
>
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez
> recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages
> electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o=
u
> falsifie. Merci.
>
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged
> information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and
> delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee=
n
> modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Teas mailing list
> Teas@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>
--=20

<http://www.verizon.com/>

*Gyan Mishra*

*Network Solutions A**rchitect *

*Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>*



*M 301 502-1347*

--00000000000049fc7205c2eccc05
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Hi Adrian=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br=
></div><div dir=3D"auto">I see you published a version 12.=C2=A0 I went thr=
ough all of MEDs updates in version 11 and ensured that my updates are mutu=
ally exclusive no overlap of MEDs updates. =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><b=
r></div><div dir=3D"auto">I built my updated on version 11.=C2=A0 I am almo=
st done and will send out tomorrow night.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>=
<div dir=3D"auto">Thanks=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"auto">Gyan</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 11:00 AM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:moha=
med.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Adrian, <br>
<br>
Thank you for the replies. Here is some few follow-up points:<br>
<br>
* s/within the control plane or by controllers/within the control or manage=
ment plane<br>
<br>
* &quot;I&#39;m not clear about the term &quot;resource-based access contro=
l&quot;. Do you mean &quot;policing&quot;? If so, yes. Policing is mentione=
d just two sentences later&quot;<br>
<br>
I actually meant resource-based admission control. This is now covered by t=
he new section you added. Thanks. <br>
<br>
* &quot; The word &quot;economically&quot; is, I think, giving you a differ=
ent meaning to what is intended. I think the word is not intended to just m=
ean &quot;financially economical&quot;, but also to mean &quot;not wasteful=
 or profligate.&quot; This is similar to &quot;efficient&quot;, but not the=
 same. In this context, &quot;economically&quot; would certainly apply to p=
ower use, money, and any other resource.<br>
I spent a little time trying to think of an equivalent word (because if it =
is causing you unrest, it will do the same for other readers), but I was un=
able to think of one.&quot;: <br>
<br>
The concern I had is that the observed behavior is conditioned by the metri=
cs/attributes/information that can be disseminated and acted upon. Optimizi=
ng the forwarding with a set of metrics as inputs does not guarantee that t=
he overall forwarding is economically-optimized. That&#39;s why I provided =
the example of power-consumption. Such optimization is not currently suppor=
ted at the level of a network (despite that some optimization can be made a=
t the node/card level).<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Med<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Message d&#39;origine-----<br>
&gt; De=C2=A0: Adrian Farrel [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk"=
 target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>]<br>
&gt; Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: samedi 15 mai 2021 19:40<br>
&gt; =C3=80=C2=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.=
boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt=
;<br>
&gt; Objet=C2=A0: RE: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Here&#39;s the file.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Many thanks for looking at this.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Adrian<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Adrian Farrel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=
=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: 15 May 2021 18:11<br>
&gt; To: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.bo=
ucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;;=
<br>
&gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org<=
/a>&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: &#39;TEAS WG Chairs&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas-chairs@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">teas-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Subject: RE: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Med,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks for all of your comments.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Nearly everything is accepted and included.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Not sure the best way to respond to your Word file, so I embedded my<b=
r>
&gt; responses and I&#39;ll send it to you under separate cover (no need to=
<br>
&gt; spam the mailing list).<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; There&#39;ll be a -12 along soon to capture your improvements.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Best,<br>
&gt; Adrian<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank=
">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@=
orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: 03 May 2021 15:49<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@ol=
ddog.co.uk</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@iet=
f.org</a><br>
&gt; Cc: &#39;TEAS WG Chairs&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas-chairs@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">teas-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Subject: RE: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Adrian, all,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; FWIW, you may find some comments at:<br>
&gt; * pdf:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blob/maste=
r/draft-" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/boucadair=
/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blob/master/draft-</a><br>
&gt; ietf-teas<br>
&gt; -rfc3272bis-11-rev%20Med.pdf<br>
&gt; * doc:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/master=
/draft-" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/boucadair/=
IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/master/draft-</a><br>
&gt; ietf-teas-<br>
&gt; rfc3272bis-11-rev%20Med.docx<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; Med<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; -----Message d&#39;origine-----<br>
&gt; &gt; De=C2=A0: Teas [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Adrian<br>
&gt; Farrel<br>
&gt; &gt; Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: mercredi 7 avril 2021 21:24 =C3=80=C2=A0: <a h=
ref=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</a> Cc=C2=A0: =
&#39;TEAS<br>
&gt; WG<br>
&gt; &gt; Chairs&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">teas-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt; Objet=C2=A0: Re: [Teas] I-D Action:<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; With this version I have filled in the remaining TBDs:<br>
&gt; &gt; - small section on intent-based network<br>
&gt; &gt; - small section on multi-layer TE (thanks, Lou, for the suggestio=
n)<br>
&gt; &gt; - change log from 3272<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; As far as I&#39;m concerned this document is complete modulo revi=
ew<br>
&gt; &gt; comments.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; It *really* needs review, but I can&#39;t force you!<br>
&gt; &gt; Maybe you can look at the sections of special interest to you?<br=
>
&gt; &gt; Maybe the original Design Team could take another look?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Otherwise: time for WG last call?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; &gt; Adrian<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: I-D-Announce &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank">i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of=
<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">int=
ernet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 07 April 2021 19:25<br>
&gt; &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">i-=
d-announce@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.=
org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Draft=
s<br>
&gt; &gt; directories.<br>
&gt; &gt; This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture=
<br>
&gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt; Signaling WG of the IETF.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Overview and Principles of Internet<br>
&gt; Traffic<br>
&gt; &gt; Engineering<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Author=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 : Adrian Farrel<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-ie=
tf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
: 91<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
: 2021-04-07<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Abstract:<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document describes the principles of traffic en=
gineering<br>
&gt; (TE)<br>
&gt; &gt; in<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the Internet.=C2=A0 The document is intended to prom=
ote better<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 understanding of the issues surrounding traffic engi=
neering in<br>
&gt; IP<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 networks and the networks that support IP networking=
, and to<br>
&gt; &gt; provide<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a common basis for the development of traffic engine=
ering<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 capabilities for the Internet.=C2=A0 The principles,=
 architectures,<br>
&gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 methodologies for performance evaluation and perform=
ance<br>
&gt; &gt; optimization<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of operational networks are also discussed.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This work was first published as RFC 3272 in May 200=
2.=C2=A0 This<br>
&gt; &gt; document<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 obsoletes RFC 3272 by making a complete update to br=
ing the text<br>
&gt; in<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 line with best current practices for Internet traffi=
c<br>
&gt; engineering<br>
&gt; &gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to include references to the latest relevant work in=
 the IETF.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-rfc32=
72bis/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d=
oc/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis/</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; There are also htmlized versions available at:<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis=
-11" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft=
-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-=
rfc3272bis-11" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; A diff from the previous version is available at:<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-teas-rf=
c3272bis-11" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcd=
iff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of=
<br>
&gt; &gt; submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_b=
lank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" rel=3D"noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; I-D-Announce mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">I-D-An=
nounce@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-=
d-announce</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Internet-Draft directories: <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/shadow=
.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=
</a> or<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer" target=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; Teas mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.org<=
/a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt; _____________________________________________________________________<=
br>
&gt; _______<br>
&gt; _____________________________________________<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations<br>
&gt; confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses,<=
br>
&gt; exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message<br=
>
&gt; par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ain=
si<br>
&gt; que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles<=
br>
&gt; d&#39;alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete<br>
&gt; altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This message and its attachments may contain confidential or<br>
&gt; privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not<b=
r>
&gt; be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<br>
&gt; If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender<br>
&gt; and delete this message and its attachments.<br>
&gt; As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have<=
br>
&gt; been modified, changed or falsified.<br>
&gt; Thank you.<br>
<br>
___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________<br>
<br>
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<br>
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<br>
a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les message=
s electroniques etant susceptibles d&#39;alteration,<br>
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.<br>
<br>
This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;<br>
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<br>
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.<br>
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.<br>
Thank you.<br>
<br>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Hi Xufeng,

=20

>I agree with Loa, moving the definition of how the term "customer" is =
interpreted in the document to the Terms and Abbreviations section seems =
very reasonable.
+1
I don't stick to "customer", but a discussion how about rephrasing =
"provider" with "producer" may also rise when I choose non-ietf-standard =
"consumer" term,

Related to this, should we rephrase " IETF Network Slice user" if there =
is any intention to leave?
5.2.  Expressing Connectivity Intents
The NSC northbound interface (NBI) can be used to communicate between =
IETF Network Slice users (or customers) and the NSC.
An IETF Network Slice user may be a network operator who, in turn, =
provides the IETF Network Slice to another IETF Network Slice user or =
customer.

=20

> During the discussions on TE Topology Model, there was a similar =
discussion on

> such terminology. At that time, the pair "client/provider" was picked =
over=20

> "consumer" and "customer". The term "client" has my vote here too.

=20

I=E2=80=99m not sure we=E2=80=99re voting, but I have registered your =
preference.

=20

If we get convincing reasons or an obvious consensus, we can change the =
words used. That, at least, will be an easy edit, and can be made at =
pretty much any time.

=20

Cheers,

Adrian

=20


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vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Hi Xufeng,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><di=
v><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&gt;I agree with Loa, moving the definition of how the =
term &quot;customer&quot; is interpreted in the document to the Terms =
and Abbreviations section seems very reasonable.<br>+1<br>I don't stick =
to &quot;customer&quot;, but a discussion how about rephrasing =
&quot;provider&quot; with &quot;producer&quot; may also rise when I =
choose non-ietf-standard &quot;consumer&quot; term,<br><br>Related to =
this, should we rephrase &quot; IETF Network Slice user&quot; if there =
is any intention to leave?<br>5.2.&nbsp; Expressing Connectivity =
Intents<br>The NSC northbound interface (NBI) can be used to communicate =
between IETF Network Slice users (or customers) and the NSC.<br>An IETF =
Network Slice user may be a network operator who, in turn, provides the =
IETF Network Slice to another IETF Network Slice user or =
customer.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&gt; During the discussions on TE Topology Model, =
there was a similar discussion on<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&gt; such terminology. At that time, the pair =
&quot;client/provider&quot; was picked over <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&gt; &quot;consumer&quot; and &quot;customer&quot;. =
The term &quot;client&quot; has my vote here too.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I=E2=80=99m =
not sure we=E2=80=99re voting, but I have registered your =
preference.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If we get convincing reasons or an obvious consensus, =
we can change the words used. That, at least, will be an easy edit, and =
can be made at pretty much any time.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Adrian<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></div></body></h=
tml>
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
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Subject: [Teas] SNMP and network slicing
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Hi,

Kenichi pointed out that the current version of the slicing draft has a
couple of mentions of SNMP and that this might no longer be appropriate
given the IESG statement at
https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/writable-mib-module/ 

I agree.

I propose to remove all mention of SNMP from Section 5.2 unless anyone
objects.

The text that will change is:

OLD
   There are several IETF-defined mechanisms for expressing the need for
   a desired logical network.  The NBI carries data either in a
   protocol-defined format, or in a formalism associated with a modeling
   language.

   For instance:

   o  Path Computation Element (PCE) Communication Protocol (PCEP)
      [RFC5440] and GMPLS User-Network Interface (UNI) using RSVP-TE
      [RFC4208] use a TLV-based binary encoding to transmit data.

   o  Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF) [RFC6241] and RESTCONF
      Protocol [RFC8040] use XML abnd JSON encoding.

   o  gRPC/GNMI [I-D.openconfig-rtgwg-gnmi-spec] uses a binary encoded
      programmable interface;

   o  SNMP ([RFC3417], [RFC3412] and [RFC3414] uses binary encoding
      (ASN.1).

   o  For data modeling, YANG ([RFC6020] and [RFC7950]) may be used to
      model configuration and other data for NETCONF, RESTCONF, and GNMI
      - among others; ProtoBufs can be used to model gRPC and GNMI data;
      Structure of Management Information (SMI) [RFC2578] may be used to
      define Management Information Base (MIB) modules for SNMP, using
      an adapted subset of OSI's Abstract Syntax Notation One (ASN.1,
      1988).
NEW
   There are several IETF-defined mechanisms for expressing the need for
   a desired logical network.  The NBI carries data either in a
   protocol-defined format, or in a formalism associated with a modeling
   language.

   For instance:

   o  Path Computation Element (PCE) Communication Protocol (PCEP)
      [RFC5440] and GMPLS User-Network Interface (UNI) using RSVP-TE
      [RFC4208] use a TLV-based binary encoding to transmit data.

   o  Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF) [RFC6241] and RESTCONF
      Protocol [RFC8040] use XML and JSON encoding.

   o  gRPC/GNMI [I-D.openconfig-rtgwg-gnmi-spec] uses a binary encoded
      programmable interface;

   o  For data modeling, YANG ([RFC6020] and [RFC7950]) may be used to
      model configuration and other data for NETCONF, RESTCONF, and GNMI
      - among others; ProtoBufs can be used to model gRPC and GNMI data.
END

Thanks,
Adrian


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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Ogaki, Kenichi'" <ke-oogaki@kddi.com>
Cc: "'TEAS WG'" <teas@ietf.org>
References: <037401d740c5$70a9cc30$51fd6490$@olddog.co.uk> <3ea262cf-e4c0-5ec0-9736-aedaf6d5d4d8@pi.nu> <009401d74195$41fd70a0$c5f851e0$@olddog.co.uk> <9933_1620212302_60927A4E_9933_344_1_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933035376DFA@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <00a001d7419e$99e5a040$cdb0e0c0$@olddog.co.uk> <03cf404d-59a7-0ec5-e18f-0a98bf638c0f@pi.nu> <CA+RyBmXoVT6z-tMEZdVoRVRzFp9gR5Ch2Ge_YQACJDUes6ja0w@mail.gmail.com> <CABNhwV0m9M+zQ5DRNv+-6xuEc52tkegO6Jho=5Pt+=Fz-GtFgg@mail.gmail.com> <TY2PR01MB3562779751C2B50D54373EB190549@TY2PR01MB3562.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Hi Kenichi,

I'm cleaning up the comments to produce a new revision.

>I agree with Loa, moving the definition of how the term "customer" is =
interpreted in
> the document to the Terms and Abbreviations section seems very =
reasonable.
> +1

OK. I'm doing this.

> I don't stick to "customer", but a discussion how about rephrasing =
"provider" with
> "producer" may also rise when I choose non-ietf-standard "consumer" =
term

Two things:
- Yes, the discussion of alternatives to "provider" is also still open
- I am keeping a list of people who feel "strongly" about =
customer/consumer/client
  At the moment I don't feel able to draw any conclusions. I don't think =
this will=20
  change the text on the definition, and we can change the name later if =
we can
  reach agreement.

> Related to this, should we rephrase " IETF Network Slice user" if =
there is any
> intention to leave?

Good catch.

> the expectation currently is that the IETF Network Slice Service will =
use
> something along the lines of the service models (L2SM and L3SM).  It =
seems
> reasonable to enhance those with something about service functions, =
quite
> possibly along the lines you are already working on.

Yes. I hope to bring some text on "slice as a service" for discussion =
SOON.

> [TS] (snip) Alternatively, does it help if the NBI request expresses =
such=20
> inclusions/exclusions policy using/referencing a  customer-centric=20
> topology that a provider may have furnished earlier to the customer,
> and which the provider can readily map to their
>
> FYI, L3SM tried to let the customer define such policy against PE site =
in
> sec. 6.6.
> I know this is non-exhaustive for IETF Network Slice.

Thanks for the pointer to L3SM.

> Editorials:
> - I'm not sure if recent RFCs should refer SNMP as an NBI in the sense =
of
>   =
https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/writable-mib-module/ .

I agree with you. I'll remove SNMP from the list in 5.2 unless someone =
shouts (see separate email).

> - multipoint-to-point twice
> .2.  IETF Network Slice Endpoints
> As noted in Section 3.1, an IETF Network Slice describes connectivity =
between multiple
> endpoints across the underlying network.  These connectivity types =
are: point-to-point,
> point-to-multipoint,  multipoint-to-point, multipoint-to-point, or =
multipoint-to-multipoint.

Thanks.

Cheers,
Adrian


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Subject: [Teas] Customer control of inclusion, policy/intent, etc. [Was: Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices]
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Hi,

=20

Tarek raised an issue a couple of weeks back.

=20

It=92s about how a network slice customer can request constraints on the
resources used in the provider network to realise the slice.

=20

I believe that, in the context of this high-level document we already =
have
this covered in the section on Service Level Expectations (4.1.2).
Obviously, we can edit that text, but it seems to me that this type of
request made to the provider is unverifiable by the customer.

=20

Tarek is right that, when specifying the NBI, this sort of thing needs =
to be
included. I would suggest that, unlike the SLOs, the SLEs will take =
quite a
bit of careful specification. It may be that the SLEs should be =
specified
individually in their own modules that augment the base NBI spec.

=20

Igor and Joel also had a conversation on this, and I think the =
conclusion
was also that SLEs would normally be used for all such controls (don=92t =
send
my traffic through country X, don=92t use devices made by company Y, =
don=92t use
services provided on DC Z). If, however, the provider chooses to supply
additional information about how the underlying network is designed, the
customer might operate on that to specify constraints. My understanding =
of
the relationship between provider and an external customer is that the
provider is not likely to supply that information in an operational =
context.
That might be different with an internal customer.

=20

Unless, anyone feels strongly, I propose that we move that discussion to =
a
different thread and a different document.

=20

Best,

Adrian

=20

From: Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>=20
Sent: 07 May 2021 18:46
To: John E Drake <jdrake=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>; Igor Bryskin
<i_bryskin=3D40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Igor Bryskin =
<i_bryskin@yahoo.com>;
Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>; adrian@olddog.co.uk;
mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; teas@ietf.org; Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios
<oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with =
draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices

=20

A customer may want to have a say in defining a policy on top of the =
route
that a NS connection can take. In absence of a common language to =
express
such (inclusion/exclusion) policy/intent, does it suffice to express =
this in
terms of geographies (GPS locations, countries, cities, roads), srlgs =
(srlgs
may not have global meaning), diversity needs (from other connections),
etc.? Alternatively, does it help if the NBI request expresses such
inclusions/exclusions policy using/referencing a =93customer-centric=94 =
topology
that a provider may have furnished earlier to the customer, and which =
the
provider can readily map to their network?

=20

Regards,

Tarek


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vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Tarek =
raised an issue a couple of weeks back.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>It&#8217;s =
about how a network slice customer can request constraints on the =
resources used in the provider network to realise the =
slice.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I believe =
that, in the context of this high-level document we already have this =
covered in the section on Service Level Expectations (4.1.2). Obviously, =
we can edit that text, but it seems to me that this type of request made =
to the provider is unverifiable by the customer.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Tarek is =
right that, when specifying the NBI, this sort of thing needs to be =
included. I would suggest that, unlike the SLOs, the SLEs will take =
quite a bit of careful specification. It may be that the SLEs should be =
specified individually in their own modules that augment the base NBI =
spec.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Igor and =
Joel also had a conversation on this, and I think the conclusion was =
also that SLEs would normally be used for all such controls (don&#8217;t =
send my traffic through country X, don&#8217;t use devices made by =
company Y, don&#8217;t use services provided on DC Z). If, however, the =
provider chooses to supply additional information about how the =
underlying network is designed, the customer might operate on that to =
specify constraints. My understanding of the relationship between =
provider and an external customer is that the provider is not likely to =
supply that information in an operational context. That might be =
different with an internal customer.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Unless, =
anyone feels strongly, I propose that we move that discussion to a =
different thread and a different document.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><di=
v style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> Tarek Saad =
&lt;tsaad.net@gmail.com&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> 07 May 2021 =
18:46<br><b>To:</b> John E Drake =
&lt;jdrake=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;; Igor Bryskin =
&lt;i_bryskin=3D40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;; Igor Bryskin =
&lt;i_bryskin@yahoo.com&gt;; Loa Andersson &lt;loa@pi.nu&gt;; =
adrian@olddog.co.uk; mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; teas@ietf.org; Oscar =
Gonz=E1lez de Dios =
&lt;oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Teas] Moving forward with =
draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>A customer may want to have a =
say in defining a policy on top of the route that a NS connection can =
take. In absence of a common language to express such =
(inclusion/exclusion) policy/intent, does it suffice to express this in =
terms of geographies (GPS locations, countries, cities, roads), srlgs =
(srlgs may not have global meaning), diversity needs (from other =
connections), etc.? Alternatively, does it help if the NBI request =
expresses such inclusions/exclusions policy using/referencing a =
&#8220;customer-centric&#8221; topology that a provider may have =
furnished earlier to the customer, and which the provider can readily =
map to their network?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Tarek<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></body></html=
>
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From nobody Sun May 23 10:20:21 2021
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <niu.xiaobing@zte.com.cn>
Cc: <teas@ietf.org>
References: 037401d740c5$70a9cc30$51fd6490$@olddog.co.uk <202105071040014300091@zte.com.cn>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Hi Xiaobing,

> Some typo or comments for your consideration,

Many thanks. In line=E2=80=A6

> 1. Page 10, the first line: be determined [by] the customer...

Ack

> 2. Page 12, in 4.2:  the 'multipoint-to-point' is duplicate.     =20
                The IETF NSE[s] are conceptual points of connection ...

Yes, to both.

> 3. Page 12,  it says,
>
> 'An NSE should be identified by a unique ID in the context of an  IETF =
Network
>  Slice customer.'
> 'A combination of NSE unique ID and NSE attributes defines an NSE in =
the
>  context of the IETF Network Slice Controller (NSC).'
>
> The unique ID of NSE is in the context (or name space) of IETF Network =
Slice
> customer. The context/name space of IETF Network slice customer may be
> different from the context of IETF network slice controller, =
considering, for
> example, difference customers could use different the same unique ID =
in
> their own customer contexts. It may need to consider the difference =
between
> the customer context and NSC context in order to keep the ID unique.

Right. I think the NSC is going to be aware of the customer ID/name, so =
that in the provider's context the NSE is identified by {customer,  NSE =
ID}.

I'm pretty sure the point here is that the NSE identifiers form a set =
across all of the slices that a single customer has and the NSE IDs are, =
therefore, unique within the customer scope not within the scope of a =
slice.

I don't see a typo to change here.

> 4. Page 20, 'IEFT' typo

Yes

> 5. Page 20,  'are mapped to the underlay IETF Network Slice Endpoints
>   (NEPs)'.    The abbreviation could be NSEs while not NEPs.

Oops =F0=9F=98=8A
Actually, this should be "EP" as in the diagram. A little additional =
tidying of the text is needed.

> 6. Page 24, security consideration, 'as some aspects of security may =
be expressed
>   in SLOs.'   =20
>   According to 4.1.2.1, security is expressed in SLE, and here, the =
SLOs could be SLEs.

Oh, well found!

Best,
Adrian



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Subject: [Teas] SFC and slicing
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Hi,

Igor raised the question of "reconciling" the IETF work on service function
chaining and network slicing.

Some of the early discussions on network slicing considered not just
connectivity resources (buffers and bandwidth), but also other resources
that might be found in the network (like storage and compute). I was one of
the people suggesting this, and I know there were others. This would
certainly go some way to bridge the gap to SFC.

However, my understanding is that the design team (and others in the WG)
wanted to push ahead with the definitions for the connectivity resources
first, and consider adding other resources later.

I think this is wise. We have taken quite a long time to get to this point
(especially if you consider the early network slicing BoF), and it is
certainly the case that the first deployment drive is for connectivity
resources. Perhaps we should sort that out first.

That said, I don't think that adding other service descriptions would be
hard. It feels like the definition of further SLOs and SLEs. 

If we want to continue this discussion, we should probably involve the SFC
working group to see how they feel about it. But anyone who is interested in
this could certainly begin work on specifying the SLOs and SLEs that they
will want to see added to the NBI.

Best,
Adrian


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Subject: Re: [Teas] Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
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Hi Shaofu,

> Thanks for your hard work for the slice architecture.
>
> I have a little comments,  as we know, there are slice scenarios that =
have
> nothing to do with VPN, for example, multiple slices in backbone can =
be
> used for connections between metros. So it is strange to put a usecase
> (VPN+) of slice be as a scheme for slice architecture, as section 6.3 =
described.

I think there are several things to say on this subject.

The first is that you're right that the use cases for network slicing go =
far beyond providing VPNs. But I would note that "connectivity services" =
are very similar to VPNs: they are expressed in terms of a connectivity =
matrix between a number of endpoints. Actually, you'll notice that this =
is comparable to a network slice.

I think the next thing to notice is that section 6.3 is not a use case. =
The whole of section 6 is about ways to realise (i.e., build) network =
slices, not a discussion of how to use slices.

In fact, ACTN and VPN+ are both TEAS working group architectural =
solutions (although VPN+ isn't an RFC as yet). That's why they're =
included in this section.

Best,
Adrian


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Subject: [Teas] A slice is not an enhanced VPN [Was: draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices: Network Slice vs. VPN(+)]
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Hi Med,

=20

As I work through the latest revision, I came back to this email to try =
to clarify this.=20

=20

I re-read 6.3 to see whether this document was responsible for =
supporting the misunderstanding you say is recurrent. I don=E2=80=99t =
think it is: 6.3 is the only place in the document that mentions =
enhanced VPNs, and it does so in a way that is suggesting that this is =
just an architectural approach. That means it feels out of place to put =
a sentence in 6.3.

=20

But we can include something like this in the general definition and =
specification of what a slice is.

=20

I=E2=80=99m a bit wary of saying =E2=80=9CBy the way, a slice is not a =
pipe=E2=80=9D [1] because sometimes this can be a distraction, and it is =
very hard to make a complete set of things that are not a network slice.

=20

But if you=E2=80=99d like to suggest a sentence and a home for it, we =
can fold it in.

=20

Best,

Adrian

=20

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>=20
Sent: 05 May 2021 14:22
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; teas@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Teas] draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices: Network Slice =
vs. VPN(+)

=20

Re-,

=20

I agree with the scope but my comment is actually not to dig into more =
technical realization details or call for favorite options to implement =
a slice (all that is deployment-specific in my mind). The comment is to =
clarify the recurrent =E2=80=9Cmisunderstanding=E2=80=9D that a slice is =
a VPN (or a VPN+).

=20

I=E2=80=99m confident this message can be conveyed in one short =
sentence.  =20

=20

Cheers,

Med

=20

De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel
Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 5 mai 2021 15:00
=C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com =
<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> >; teas@ietf.org =
<mailto:teas@ietf.org>=20
Objet : Re: [Teas] draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices: Network Slice =
vs. VPN(+)

=20

Hi Med,

=20

I=E2=80=99m currently working up some text to provide a definition of a =
network slice service and to clarify the endpoint definitions.

=20

This text will be based on material that was on the list some while =
back.

=20

I don=E2=80=99t think this document should dig too deep into VPN+ or =
ACTN. An enhanced VPN is not identical to a slice, and an CAN VN is not =
identical to a slice. However, ACTN and VPN+ both provide ways to =
realise/deliver network slices. I think that applicability statements =
should explain what can and can=E2=80=99t be done using those =
technologies, while this document should just note that they are =
possible architectural approaches.

=20

There are, of course, very many ways to achieve network slicing =
dependent on the underlying technology. We need to be careful about this =
document:

*	Blessing any one approach
*	Trying to catalogue all possible approaches.

Other documents can try to establish consensus for particular =
approaches.

=20

Best,

Adrian

=20

From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> =
 <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> >=20
Sent: 05 May 2021 13:39
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk> ; teas@ietf.org =
<mailto:teas@ietf.org>=20
Subject: draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices: Network Slice vs. VPN(+)=20

=20

Adrian,=20

=20

I wonder whether you are planning to add some text to include the =
clarification discussed below.=20

=20

Thank you.=20

=20

Cheers,

Med

=20

De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de =
mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>=20
Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 3 mars 2021 14:28
=C3=80 : adrian@olddog.co.uk <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk> ; =
teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>=20
Objet : [Teas] Network Slice vs. VPN(+) RE: network Slice Endpoint in =
draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00

=20

Hi Adrian, all,=20

=20

Picking this item from the message below as I think this is a point that =
is worth to be clarified and discussed in the framework/definition =
document. We need to explain the differences between the two concepts. =
There are some =E2=80=9Chints=E2=80=9D in the framework I-D, but we need =
to be explicit.=20

=20

VPN(+) is no more than an IETF technology to implement a network slice. =
As such, a network slice can be implemented without relying upon a =
VPN/VPN+. That=E2=80=99s deployment-specific. An example of possible =
implementations (with IETF technologies) would be to define PDBs + SFCs =
or running a dedicated MT-IGP instance (with optimized tweaking such as =
exclude links exposing long delays) + resource-based access, and so on.=20

=20

Ah, let=E2=80=99s not forget that a network slice as defined in the =
definition I-D is not only about connectivity.

=20

BTW, we do still have some inconsistencies between the documents:=20

*	The definition I-D acks that an IETF network slice is not only about =
connectivity.=20
*	The framework I-D seems to be more connectivity-centric.=20

=20

We need to fix this as well.=20

=20

Cheers,

Med

=20

De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel
Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 25 f=C3=A9vrier 2021 11:52
=C3=80 : 'Young Lee' <younglee.tx@gmail.com =
<mailto:younglee.tx@gmail.com> >; 'Luis M. Contreras' =
<contreras.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:contreras.ietf@gmail.com> >
Cc : 'Joel M. Halpern' <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com> =
>; teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org> ; 'Eric Gray' =
<ewgray2k@gmail.com <mailto:ewgray2k@gmail.com> >; 'John E Drake' =
<jdrake=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:jdrake=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> >; 'Rokui, Reza (Nokia - =
CA/Ottawa)' <reza.rokui@nokia.com <mailto:reza.rokui@nokia.com> >; =
BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com =
<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> >
Objet : Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in =
draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00

=20

[...]

=20

But my opinion of all of this is coloured by thinking about enhanced =
VPNs (VPN+) [3] and IETF network slices as the same thing.

=20

[...]

=20

[1] =
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/ibycGzi5cxJUJSvRxm9OsQdDqn8/

[2] RFC 4026

[3] draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Hi Med,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>As I work =
through the latest revision, I came back to this email to try to clarify =
this. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I re-read =
6.3 to see whether this document was responsible for supporting the =
misunderstanding you say is recurrent. I don=E2=80=99t think it is: 6.3 =
is the only place in the document that mentions enhanced VPNs, and it =
does so in a way that is suggesting that this is just an architectural =
approach. That means it feels out of place to put a sentence in =
6.3.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>But we can =
include something like this in the general definition and specification =
of what a slice is.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I=E2=80=99m =
a bit wary of saying =E2=80=9CBy the way, a slice is not a pipe=E2=80=9D =
[1] because sometimes this can be a distraction, and it is very hard to =
make a complete set of things that are not a network =
slice.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>But if =
you=E2=80=99d like to suggest a sentence and a home for it, we can fold =
it in.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>[1] =
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images<o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><di=
v style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> =
mohamed.boucadair@orange.com &lt;mohamed.boucadair@orange.com&gt; =
<br><b>Sent:</b> 05 May 2021 14:22<br><b>To:</b> adrian@olddog.co.uk; =
teas@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Teas] =
draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices: Network Slice vs. =
VPN(+)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'>Re-,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'>I agree with the scope but my comment is actually =
not to dig into more technical realization details or call for favorite =
options to implement a slice (all that is deployment-specific in my =
mind). The comment is to clarify the recurrent =
=E2=80=9Cmisunderstanding=E2=80=9D that a slice is a VPN (or a =
VPN+).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'>I=E2=80=99m confident this message can be conveyed =
in one short sentence. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'>Med<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DFR>De&nbsp;:</span></b><span lang=3DFR> Teas [<a =
href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>] =
<b>De la part de</b> Adrian Farrel<br><b>Envoy=C3=A9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi =
5 mai 2021 15:00<br><b>=C3=80&nbsp;:</b> BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com=
</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a><br><b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> =
Re: [Teas] draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices: Network Slice vs. =
VPN(+)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi =
Med,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I=E2=80=99m currently working up some text to provide =
a definition of a network slice service and to clarify the endpoint =
definitions.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>This text will be based on material that was on the =
list some while back.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
don=E2=80=99t think this document should dig too deep into VPN+ or ACTN. =
An enhanced VPN is not identical to a slice, and an CAN VN is not =
identical to a slice. However, ACTN and VPN+ both provide ways to =
realise/deliver network slices. I think that applicability statements =
should explain what can and can=E2=80=99t be done using those =
technologies, while this document should just note that they are =
possible architectural approaches.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>There are, =
of course, very many ways to achieve network slicing dependent on the =
underlying technology. We need to be careful about this =
document:<o:p></o:p></p><ul style=3D'margin-top:0cm' type=3Ddisc><li =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'>Blessing any one =
approach<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l2 =
level1 lfo2'>Trying to catalogue all possible =
approaches.<o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=3DMsoNormal>Other documents can =
try to establish consensus for particular approaches.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Best,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Adrian<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> <a =
href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com=
</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com=
</a>&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> 05 May 2021 13:39<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> =
draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices: Network Slice vs. VPN(+) =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D'>Adrian, =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'>I wonder whether you are planning to add some text =
to include the clarification discussed below. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'>Thank you. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'>Med<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DFR>De&nbsp;:</span></b><span lang=3DFR> Teas [<a =
href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>] =
<b>De la part de</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com=
</a><br><b>Envoy=C3=A9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 3 mars 2021 =
14:28<br><b>=C3=80&nbsp;:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a><br><b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> =
[Teas] Network Slice vs. VPN(+) RE: network Slice Endpoint in =
draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00<o:p></o:p></span></p></d=
iv></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Hi Adrian, =
all, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Picking =
this item from the message below as I think this is a point that is =
worth to be clarified and discussed in the framework/definition =
document. We need to explain the differences between the two concepts. =
There are some =E2=80=9Chints=E2=80=9D in the framework I-D, but we need =
to be explicit. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>VPN(+) is =
no more than an IETF technology to implement a network slice. As such, a =
network slice can be implemented without relying upon a VPN/VPN+. =
That=E2=80=99s deployment-specific. An example of possible =
implementations (with IETF technologies) would be to define PDBs + SFCs =
or running a dedicated MT-IGP instance (with optimized tweaking such as =
exclude links exposing long delays) + resource-based access, and so on. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Ah, =
let=E2=80=99s not forget that a network slice as defined in the =
definition I-D is not only about connectivity.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>BTW, we do =
still have some inconsistencies between the documents: =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><ul style=3D'margin-top:0cm' type=3Ddisc><li =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:black;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo5'><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>The definition I-D acks =
that an IETF network slice is not only about connectivity. =
<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:black;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo5'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>The framework I-D seems to be more =
connectivity-centric. <o:p></o:p></span></li></ul><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>We need to =
fix this as well. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'>Med<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DFR>De&nbsp;:</span></b><span lang=3DFR> Teas [<a =
href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>] =
<b>De la part de</b> Adrian Farrel<br><b>Envoy=C3=A9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 25 =
f=C3=A9vrier 2021 11:52<br><b>=C3=80&nbsp;:</b> 'Young Lee' &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:younglee.tx@gmail.com">younglee.tx@gmail.com</a>&gt;; =
'Luis M. Contreras' &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:contreras.ietf@gmail.com">contreras.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
<br><b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> 'Joel M. Halpern' &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com">jmh@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a>; 'Eric Gray' &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ewgray2k@gmail.com">ewgray2k@gmail.com</a>&gt;; 'John E =
Drake' &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jdrake=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org">jdrake=3D40juniper.=
net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;; 'Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)' &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:reza.rokui@nokia.com">reza.rokui@nokia.com</a>&gt;; =
BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com=
</a>&gt;<br><b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in =
draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00<o:p></o:p></span></p></d=
iv></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>[...]</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>But my =
opinion of all of this is coloured by thinking about enhanced VPNs =
(VPN+) [3] and IETF network slices as the same thing.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>[...]</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>[1] <a =
href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/ibycGzi5cxJUJSvRxm9OsQ=
dDqn8/">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/ibycGzi5cxJUJSvRxm9OsQ=
dDqn8/</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>[2] RFC =
4026<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:5.25pt'>[3] =
draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn<span =
lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><pre><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>___________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span><=
/pre><pre><span lang=3DFR style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Ce message et ses =
pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou =
privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
lang=3DFR style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>pas etre =
diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce =
message par erreur, veuillez le =
signaler<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>a l'expediteur et =
le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques =
etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
lang=3DFR style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Orange =
decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>This message and =
its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that =
may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>they should not be =
distributed, used or copied without =
authorisation.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>If you have =
received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this =
message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>As emails may be =
altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, =
changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Thank =
you.<o:p></o:p></span></pre></div><pre><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>___________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span><=
/pre><pre><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Ce message et ses =
pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou =
privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>pas =
etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu =
ce message par erreur, veuillez le =
signaler<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>a l'expediteur et =
le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques =
etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Orange =
decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>This message and =
its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that =
may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>they should not be =
distributed, used or copied without =
authorisation.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>If you have =
received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this =
message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>As =
emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Thank =
you.<o:p></o:p></span></pre></div><pre><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>___________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span><=
/pre><pre><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Ce message et ses =
pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou =
privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>pas =
etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu =
ce message par erreur, veuillez le =
signaler<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>a l'expediteur et =
le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques =
etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Orange =
decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>This message and =
its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that =
may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>they should not be =
distributed, used or copied without =
authorisation.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>If you have =
received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this =
message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>As =
emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Thank =
you.<o:p></o:p></span></pre></div></body></html>
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To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, teas@ietf.org
Cc: i_bryskin@yahoo.com, 'Tarek Saad' <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
References: <006301d74ff5$0c5926b0$250b7410$@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] Customer control of inclusion, policy/intent, etc. [Was: Moving forward with draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices]
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Thanks Adrian.  That all sounds reasonable to me.
Yours,
Joel

On 5/23/2021 12:59 PM, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Tarek raised an issue a couple of weeks back.
> 
> It’s about how a network slice customer can request constraints on the 
> resources used in the provider network to realise the slice.
> 
> I believe that, in the context of this high-level document we already 
> have this covered in the section on Service Level Expectations (4.1.2). 
> Obviously, we can edit that text, but it seems to me that this type of 
> request made to the provider is unverifiable by the customer.
> 
> Tarek is right that, when specifying the NBI, this sort of thing needs 
> to be included. I would suggest that, unlike the SLOs, the SLEs will 
> take quite a bit of careful specification. It may be that the SLEs 
> should be specified individually in their own modules that augment the 
> base NBI spec.
> 
> Igor and Joel also had a conversation on this, and I think the 
> conclusion was also that SLEs would normally be used for all such 
> controls (don’t send my traffic through country X, don’t use devices 
> made by company Y, don’t use services provided on DC Z). If, however, 
> the provider chooses to supply additional information about how the 
> underlying network is designed, the customer might operate on that to 
> specify constraints. My understanding of the relationship between 
> provider and an external customer is that the provider is not likely to 
> supply that information in an operational context. That might be 
> different with an internal customer.
> 
> Unless, anyone feels strongly, I propose that we move that discussion to 
> a different thread and a different document.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Adrian
> 
> *From:*Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* 07 May 2021 18:46
> *To:* John E Drake <jdrake=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>; Igor Bryskin 
> <i_bryskin=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Igor Bryskin 
> <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>; Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>; adrian@olddog.co.uk; 
> mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; teas@ietf.org; Oscar González de Dios 
> <oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Teas] Moving forward with 
> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices
> 
> A customer may want to have a say in defining a policy on top of the 
> route that a NS connection can take. In absence of a common language to 
> express such (inclusion/exclusion) policy/intent, does it suffice to 
> express this in terms of geographies (GPS locations, countries, cities, 
> roads), srlgs (srlgs may not have global meaning), diversity needs (from 
> other connections), etc.? Alternatively, does it help if the NBI request 
> expresses such inclusions/exclusions policy using/referencing a 
> “customer-centric” topology that a provider may have furnished earlier 
> to the customer, and which the provider can readily map to their network?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Tarek
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Teas mailing list
> Teas@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
> 


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Framework for IETF Network Slices
        Authors         : Adrian Farrel
                          Eric Gray
                          John Drake
                          Reza Rokui
                          Shunsuke Homma
                          Kiran Makhijani
                          Luis M. Contreras
                          Jeff Tantsura
	Filename        : draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-03.txt
	Pages           : 32
	Date            : 2021-05-23

Abstract:
   This document describes network slicing in the context of networks
   built from IETF technologies.  It defines the term "IETF Network
   Slice" and establishes the general principles of network slicing in
   the IETF context.

   The document discusses the general framework for requesting and
   operating IETF Network Slices, the characteristics of an IETF Network
   Slice, the necessary system components and interfaces, and how
   abstract requests can be mapped to more specific technologies.  The
   document also discusses related considerations with monitoring and
   security.

   This document also provides definitions of related terms to enable
   consistent usage in other IETF documents that describe or use aspects
   of IETF Network Slices.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-03


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



From nobody Sun May 23 14:25:31 2021
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <teas@ietf.org>
Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 22:25:21 +0100
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/HEsB66sKQxPtwJShR9VCQADBMeY>
Subject: [Teas] New revision: draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-03.txt
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Hi WG,

This is a housekeeping revision.

- Picked up some editorial comments from Kenichi and Xiaobing.

- Moved the definition of 'customer' up to section 2.1 as requested by
  several people

- Added a definition of 'provider' to section 2.1 per Oscar

- Fix (i.e., remove) use of "Network Slice User"

Cheers,
Adrian

-----Original Message-----
From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
Sent: 23 May 2021 22:03
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: teas@ietf.org
Subject: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-03.txt


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and
Signaling WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Framework for IETF Network Slices
        Authors         : Adrian Farrel
                          Eric Gray
                          John Drake
                          Reza Rokui
                          Shunsuke Homma
                          Kiran Makhijani
                          Luis M. Contreras
                          Jeff Tantsura
	Filename        : draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-03.txt
	Pages           : 32
	Date            : 2021-05-23

Abstract:
   This document describes network slicing in the context of networks
   built from IETF technologies.  It defines the term "IETF Network
   Slice" and establishes the general principles of network slicing in
   the IETF context.

   The document discusses the general framework for requesting and
   operating IETF Network Slices, the characteristics of an IETF Network
   Slice, the necessary system components and interfaces, and how
   abstract requests can be mapped to more specific technologies.  The
   document also discusses related considerations with monitoring and
   security.

   This document also provides definitions of related terms to enable
   consistent usage in other IETF documents that describe or use aspects
   of IETF Network Slices.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-03


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas


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From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
To: "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] SFC and slicing
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Subject: Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing
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Hi Adrian,
Thanks for giving to this some thoughts.

I see a problem with the suggested plan if it turns out along the road that=
 in a requested by a client SFC SF1-> SF2->...->SFn different sets  of SLOs=
  are required for each/some SFi->SFj links, as well as e2e across the slic=
e. I suggested one way to address this by describing slices as SF aware abs=
tract topologies.

Cheers,
Igor

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>

________________________________
From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddo=
g.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2021 1:40:11 PM
To: teas@ietf.org <teas@ietf.org>
Cc: i_bryskin@yahoo.com <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Teas] SFC and slicing

Hi,

Igor raised the question of "reconciling" the IETF work on service function
chaining and network slicing.

Some of the early discussions on network slicing considered not just
connectivity resources (buffers and bandwidth), but also other resources
that might be found in the network (like storage and compute). I was one of
the people suggesting this, and I know there were others. This would
certainly go some way to bridge the gap to SFC.

However, my understanding is that the design team (and others in the WG)
wanted to push ahead with the definitions for the connectivity resources
first, and consider adding other resources later.

I think this is wise. We have taken quite a long time to get to this point
(especially if you consider the early network slicing BoF), and it is
certainly the case that the first deployment drive is for connectivity
resources. Perhaps we should sort that out first.

That said, I don't think that adding other service descriptions would be
hard. It feels like the definition of further SLOs and SLEs.

If we want to continue this discussion, we should probably involve the SFC
working group to see how they feel about it. But anyone who is interested i=
n
this could certainly begin work on specifying the SLOs and SLEs that they
will want to see added to the NBI.

Best,
Adrian

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<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
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<body>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">
Hi Adrian, <br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">
Thanks for giving to this some thoughts. <br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">
I see a problem with the suggested plan if it turns out along the road that=
 in a requested by a client SFC SF1-&gt; SF2-&gt;...-&gt;SFn different sets=
&nbsp; of SLOs&nbsp; are required for each/some SFi-&gt;SFj links, as well =
as e2e across the slice. I suggested one way to address
 this by describing slices as SF aware abstract topologies. <br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">
Cheers, <br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">
Igor <br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">
<span id=3D"ms-outlook-android-cursor"></span><span id=3D"OutlookSignature"=
>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">
Get <a href=3D"https://aka.ms/ghei36">Outlook for Android</a></div>
</span><br>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Teas &lt;teas-bounces=
@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Adrian Farrel &lt;adrian@olddog.co.uk&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 23, 2021 1:40:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> teas@ietf.org &lt;teas@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> i_bryskin@yahoo.com &lt;i_bryskin@yahoo.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Teas] SFC and slicing</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;=
">
<div class=3D"PlainText">Hi,<br>
<br>
Igor raised the question of &quot;reconciling&quot; the IETF work on servic=
e function<br>
chaining and network slicing.<br>
<br>
Some of the early discussions on network slicing considered not just<br>
connectivity resources (buffers and bandwidth), but also other resources<br=
>
that might be found in the network (like storage and compute). I was one of=
<br>
the people suggesting this, and I know there were others. This would<br>
certainly go some way to bridge the gap to SFC.<br>
<br>
However, my understanding is that the design team (and others in the WG)<br=
>
wanted to push ahead with the definitions for the connectivity resources<br=
>
first, and consider adding other resources later.<br>
<br>
I think this is wise. We have taken quite a long time to get to this point<=
br>
(especially if you consider the early network slicing BoF), and it is<br>
certainly the case that the first deployment drive is for connectivity<br>
resources. Perhaps we should sort that out first.<br>
<br>
That said, I don't think that adding other service descriptions would be<br=
>
hard. It feels like the definition of further SLOs and SLEs. <br>
<br>
If we want to continue this discussion, we should probably involve the SFC<=
br>
working group to see how they feel about it. But anyone who is interested i=
n<br>
this could certainly begin work on specifying the SLOs and SLEs that they<b=
r>
will want to see added to the NBI.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Adrian<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Teas mailing list<br>
Teas@ietf.org<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br>
</div>
</span></font></div>
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Igor Bryskin'" <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>, <teas@ietf.org>
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Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 13:49:06 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing
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It's an interesting question : "What would happen if the different parts of
the SFC needed different SLOs?"  But that is an "if". I wonder whether we
can decide whether this is likely.

 

Consider an end-to-end flow. We can easily decide on the end-to-end SLOs.
For example, there may be an end-to-end latency requirement. But it seems
unlikely that there is a special latency requirement between a pair of SFs.
Is there an example, where the SF-to-SF SLO needs to be specific?

 

Thanks,

Adrian

 

From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com> 
Sent: 24 May 2021 13:22
To: teas@ietf.org; adrian@olddog.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing

 

Hi Adrian, 

Thanks for giving to this some thoughts. 

I see a problem with the suggested plan if it turns out along the road that
in a requested by a client SFC SF1-> SF2->...->SFn different sets  of SLOs
are required for each/some SFi->SFj links, as well as e2e across the slice.
I suggested one way to address this by describing slices as SF aware
abstract topologies. 

Cheers, 

Igor 

Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36> 

 

  _____  

From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Adrian Farrel
<adrian@olddog.co.uk <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk> >
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2021 1:40:11 PM
To: teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>  <teas@ietf.org
<mailto:teas@ietf.org> >
Cc: i_bryskin@yahoo.com <mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com>  <i_bryskin@yahoo.com
<mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com> >
Subject: [Teas] SFC and slicing 

 

Hi,

Igor raised the question of "reconciling" the IETF work on service function
chaining and network slicing.

Some of the early discussions on network slicing considered not just
connectivity resources (buffers and bandwidth), but also other resources
that might be found in the network (like storage and compute). I was one of
the people suggesting this, and I know there were others. This would
certainly go some way to bridge the gap to SFC.

However, my understanding is that the design team (and others in the WG)
wanted to push ahead with the definitions for the connectivity resources
first, and consider adding other resources later.

I think this is wise. We have taken quite a long time to get to this point
(especially if you consider the early network slicing BoF), and it is
certainly the case that the first deployment drive is for connectivity
resources. Perhaps we should sort that out first.

That said, I don't think that adding other service descriptions would be
hard. It feels like the definition of further SLOs and SLEs. 

If we want to continue this discussion, we should probably involve the SFC
working group to see how they feel about it. But anyone who is interested in
this could certainly begin work on specifying the SLOs and SLEs that they
will want to see added to the NBI.

Best,
Adrian

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org> 
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>It&#8217;s an interesting question =
: &#8220;What would happen if the different parts of the SFC needed =
different SLOs?&#8221;&nbsp; But that is an &#8220;if&#8221;. I wonder =
whether we can decide whether this is likely.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Consider an =
end-to-end flow. We can easily decide on the end-to-end SLOs. For =
example, there may be an end-to-end latency requirement. But it seems =
unlikely that there is a special latency requirement between a pair of =
SFs. Is there an example, where the SF-to-SF SLO needs to be =
specific?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><di=
v style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> Igor Bryskin =
&lt;i_bryskin@yahoo.com&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> 24 May 2021 =
13:22<br><b>To:</b> teas@ietf.org; =
adrian@olddog.co.uk<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Teas] SFC and =
slicing<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Hi Adrian, =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Thanks for giving =
to this some thoughts. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>I see a problem =
with the suggested plan if it turns out along the road that in a =
requested by a client SFC SF1-&gt; SF2-&gt;...-&gt;SFn different =
sets&nbsp; of SLOs&nbsp; are required for each/some SFi-&gt;SFj links, =
as well as e2e across the slice. I suggested one way to address this by =
describing slices as SF aware abstract topologies. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Cheers, =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Igor =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Get <a =
href=3D"https://aka.ms/ghei36">Outlook for =
Android</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></s=
pan></p></div><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'text-align:center'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"98%" =
align=3Dcenter></div><div id=3DdivRplyFwdMsg><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'color:black'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'color:black'> Teas &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on =
behalf of Adrian Farrel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;<br><b>Sen=
t:</b> Sunday, May 23, 2021 1:40:11 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com">i_bryskin@yahoo.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com">i_bryskin@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Sub=
ject:</b> [Teas] SFC and slicing</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hi,<br><br>Igor raised the question of =
&quot;reconciling&quot; the IETF work on service function<br>chaining =
and network slicing.<br><br>Some of the early discussions on network =
slicing considered not just<br>connectivity resources (buffers and =
bandwidth), but also other resources<br>that might be found in the =
network (like storage and compute). I was one of<br>the people =
suggesting this, and I know there were others. This would<br>certainly =
go some way to bridge the gap to SFC.<br><br>However, my understanding =
is that the design team (and others in the WG)<br>wanted to push ahead =
with the definitions for the connectivity resources<br>first, and =
consider adding other resources later.<br><br>I think this is wise. We =
have taken quite a long time to get to this point<br>(especially if you =
consider the early network slicing BoF), and it is<br>certainly the case =
that the first deployment drive is for connectivity<br>resources. =
Perhaps we should sort that out first.<br><br>That said, I don't think =
that adding other service descriptions would be<br>hard. It feels like =
the definition of further SLOs and SLEs. <br><br>If we want to continue =
this discussion, we should probably involve the SFC<br>working group to =
see how they feel about it. But anyone who is interested in<br>this =
could certainly begin work on specifying the SLOs and SLEs that =
they<br>will want to see added to the =
NBI.<br><br>Best,<br>Adrian<br><br>______________________________________=
_________<br>Teas mailing list<br><a =
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Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 14:44:46 +0000 (UTC)
From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
To: "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing
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 Right. I suppose we need to hear from operators. Specifically, focusing on=
 the delay SLO I'd like to ask:1. Is it possible that requested SFs in an S=
FC need to be time synchronized in a client specific way?2. If e2e delays D=
, how the network is supposed to spend the delay budget between SFs in the =
requested SFC:a) arbitrarily;b) evenly.c) in proportion specified by the cl=
ient

Cheers,Igor

    On Monday, May 24, 2021, 08:49:31 AM EDT, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.=
co.uk> wrote: =20
=20
 #yiv8485934124 #yiv8485934124 -- _filtered {} _filtered {}#yiv8485934124 #=
yiv8485934124 p.yiv8485934124MsoNormal, #yiv8485934124 li.yiv8485934124MsoN=
ormal, #yiv8485934124 div.yiv8485934124MsoNormal {margin:0cm;font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8485934124 a:link, #yiv8485934124 span.yiv84=
85934124MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8485934124 =
span.yiv8485934124EmailStyle19 {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#y=
iv8485934124 .yiv8485934124MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered {}#y=
iv8485934124 div.yiv8485934124WordSection1 {}#yiv8485934124=20
It=E2=80=99s an interesting question : =E2=80=9CWhat would happen if the di=
fferent parts of the SFC needed different SLOs?=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 But that is =
an =E2=80=9Cif=E2=80=9D. I wonder whether we can decide whether this is lik=
ely.

 =C2=A0

Consider an end-to-end flow. We can easily decide on the end-to-end SLOs. F=
or example, there may be an end-to-end latency requirement. But it seems un=
likely that there is a special latency requirement between a pair of SFs. I=
s there an example, where the SF-to-SF SLO needs to be specific?

 =C2=A0

Thanks,

Adrian

 =C2=A0

From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>=20
Sent: 24 May 2021 13:22
To: teas@ietf.org; adrian@olddog.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing

 =C2=A0

Hi Adrian,=20

Thanks for giving to this some thoughts.=20

I see a problem with the suggested plan if it turns out along the road that=
 in a requested by a client SFC SF1-> SF2->...->SFn different sets=C2=A0 of=
 SLOs=C2=A0 are required for each/some SFi->SFj links, as well as e2e acros=
s the slice. I suggested one way to address this by describing slices as SF=
 aware abstract topologies.=20

Cheers,=20

Igor=20

Get Outlook for Android

 =C2=A0

From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddo=
g.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2021 1:40:11 PM
To: teas@ietf.org <teas@ietf.org>
Cc: i_bryskin@yahoo.com <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Teas] SFC and slicing=20

=C2=A0

Hi,

Igor raised the question of "reconciling" the IETF work on service function
chaining and network slicing.

Some of the early discussions on network slicing considered not just
connectivity resources (buffers and bandwidth), but also other resources
that might be found in the network (like storage and compute). I was one of
the people suggesting this, and I know there were others. This would
certainly go some way to bridge the gap to SFC.

However, my understanding is that the design team (and others in the WG)
wanted to push ahead with the definitions for the connectivity resources
first, and consider adding other resources later.

I think this is wise. We have taken quite a long time to get to this point
(especially if you consider the early network slicing BoF), and it is
certainly the case that the first deployment drive is for connectivity
resources. Perhaps we should sort that out first.

That said, I don't think that adding other service descriptions would be
hard. It feels like the definition of further SLOs and SLEs.=20

If we want to continue this discussion, we should probably involve the SFC
working group to see how they feel about it. But anyone who is interested i=
n
this could certainly begin work on specifying the SLOs and SLEs that they
will want to see added to the NBI.

Best,
Adrian

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
 =20
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<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydp67d1e00dyahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1=
3px;"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Right. I suppose we need to =
hear from operators. Specifically, focusing on the delay SLO I'd like to as=
k:</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">1. Is it possible that reque=
sted SFs in an SFC need to be time synchronized in a client specific way?</=
div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">2. If e2e delays D, how the netw=
ork is supposed to spend the delay budget between SFs in the requested SFC:=
</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">a) arbitrarily;</div><div dir=
=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">b) evenly.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=
=3D"false">c) in proportion specified by the client</div><div dir=3D"ltr" d=
ata-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br><=
/div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Cheers,</div><div dir=3D"ltr" d=
ata-setdir=3D"false"><msreadoutspan class=3D"msreadout-line-highlight msrea=
dout-inactive-highlight"><msreadoutspan class=3D"msreadout-word-highlight">=
Igor</msreadoutspan></msreadoutspan></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"f=
alse"><br></div><div><br></div>
       =20
        </div><div id=3D"yahoo_quoted_2405513004" class=3D"yahoo_quoted">
            <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
               =20
                <div>
                    On Monday, May 24, 2021, 08:49:31 AM EDT, Adrian Farrel=
 &lt;adrian@olddog.co.uk&gt; wrote:
                </div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><div id=3D"yiv8485934124"><style>#yiv8485934124 #yiv84=
85934124 --
=20
 _filtered {}
 _filtered {}
#yiv8485934124 =20
#yiv8485934124 p.yiv8485934124MsoNormal, #yiv8485934124 li.yiv8485934124Mso=
Normal, #yiv8485934124 div.yiv8485934124MsoNormal
=09{margin:0cm;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}
#yiv8485934124 a:link, #yiv8485934124 span.yiv8485934124MsoHyperlink
=09{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}
#yiv8485934124 span.yiv8485934124EmailStyle19
=09{font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;}
#yiv8485934124 .yiv8485934124MsoChpDefault
=09{font-size:10.0pt;}
 _filtered {}
#yiv8485934124 div.yiv8485934124WordSection1
=09{}
#yiv8485934124 </style><div><div class=3D"yiv8485934124WordSection1"><p cla=
ss=3D"yiv8485934124MsoNormal"><span style=3D"">It=E2=80=99s an interesting =
question : =E2=80=9CWhat would happen if the different parts of the SFC nee=
ded different SLOs?=E2=80=9D&nbsp; But that is an =E2=80=9Cif=E2=80=9D. I w=
onder whether we can decide whether this is likely.</span></p><p class=3D"y=
iv8485934124MsoNormal"><span style=3D""> &nbsp;</span></p><p class=3D"yiv84=
85934124MsoNormal"><span style=3D"">Consider an end-to-end flow. We can eas=
ily decide on the end-to-end SLOs. For example, there may be an end-to-end =
latency requirement. But it seems unlikely that there is a special latency =
requirement between a pair of SFs. Is there an example, where the SF-to-SF =
SLO needs to be specific?</span></p><p class=3D"yiv8485934124MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D""> &nbsp;</span></p><p class=3D"yiv8485934124MsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"">Thanks,</span></p><p class=3D"yiv8485934124MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"">Adrian</span></p><p class=3D"yiv8485934124MsoNormal"><span style=3D""=
> &nbsp;</span></p><div class=3D"yiv8485934124yqt2659673603" id=3D"yiv84859=
34124yqt44278"><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0p=
t;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;"><p class=3D"yiv8485934124MsoNormal"><b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Igor Bryskin &lt;i_bry=
skin@yahoo.com&gt; <br clear=3D"none"><b>Sent:</b> 24 May 2021 13:22<br cle=
ar=3D"none"><b>To:</b> teas@ietf.org; adrian@olddog.co.uk<br clear=3D"none"=
><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing</span></p></div></div><p class=
=3D"yiv8485934124MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</p><div><p class=3D"yiv8485934124MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Hi Adrian, </span>=
</p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv8485934124MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:1=
2.0pt;"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Thanks for givi=
ng to this some thoughts. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv8485934124Ms=
oNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-se=
rif;color:black;">I see a problem with the suggested plan if it turns out a=
long the road that in a requested by a client SFC SF1-&gt; SF2-&gt;...-&gt;=
SFn different sets&nbsp; of SLOs&nbsp; are required for each/some SFi-&gt;S=
Fj links, as well as e2e across the slice. I suggested one way to address t=
his by describing slices as SF aware abstract topologies. </span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3D"yiv8485934124MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-se=
rif;color:black;">Cheers, </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv8485934124Ms=
oNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-se=
rif;color:black;">Igor </span></p></div><div><div><p class=3D"yiv8485934124=
MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Get <a rel=
=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"=
https://aka.ms/ghei36">Outlook for Android</a></span></p></div><p class=3D"=
yiv8485934124MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"=
> &nbsp;</span></p></div><div align=3D"center" class=3D"yiv8485934124MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"text-align:center;"><hr align=3D"center" size=3D"2" width=3D"=
98%"></div><div id=3D"yiv8485934124divRplyFwdMsg"><p class=3D"yiv8485934124=
MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"c=
olor:black;"> Teas &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rec=
t" ymailto=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailt=
o:teas-bounces@ietf.org">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Adrian =
Farrel &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:adrian@old=
dog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none"><b>Sent:</b> Sunda=
y, May 23, 2021 1:40:11 PM<br clear=3D"none"><b>To:</b> <a rel=3D"nofollow =
noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a rel=3D"n=
ofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
clear=3D"none"><b>Cc:</b> <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"=
rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mail=
to:i_bryskin@yahoo.com">i_bryskin@yahoo.com</a> &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noop=
ener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com">i_bryskin@yahoo.com</a>&g=
t;<br clear=3D"none"><b>Subject:</b> [Teas] SFC and slicing</span> </p><div=
><p class=3D"yiv8485934124MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p></div></div><div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"yiv8485934124MsoNormal">Hi,<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Igor=
 raised the question of "reconciling" the IETF work on service function<br =
clear=3D"none">chaining and network slicing.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D=
"none">Some of the early discussions on network slicing considered not just=
<br clear=3D"none">connectivity resources (buffers and bandwidth), but also=
 other resources<br clear=3D"none">that might be found in the network (like=
 storage and compute). I was one of<br clear=3D"none">the people suggesting=
 this, and I know there were others. This would<br clear=3D"none">certainly=
 go some way to bridge the gap to SFC.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"=
>However, my understanding is that the design team (and others in the WG)<b=
r clear=3D"none">wanted to push ahead with the definitions for the connecti=
vity resources<br clear=3D"none">first, and consider adding other resources=
 later.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">I think this is wise. We have =
taken quite a long time to get to this point<br clear=3D"none">(especially =
if you consider the early network slicing BoF), and it is<br clear=3D"none"=
>certainly the case that the first deployment drive is for connectivity<br =
clear=3D"none">resources. Perhaps we should sort that out first.<br clear=
=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">That said, I don't think that adding other ser=
vice descriptions would be<br clear=3D"none">hard. It feels like the defini=
tion of further SLOs and SLEs. <br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">If we =
want to continue this discussion, we should probably involve the SFC<br cle=
ar=3D"none">working group to see how they feel about it. But anyone who is =
interested in<br clear=3D"none">this could certainly begin work on specifyi=
ng the SLOs and SLEs that they<br clear=3D"none">will want to see added to =
the NBI.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Best,<br clear=3D"none">Adria=
n<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">____________________________________=
___________<br clear=3D"none">Teas mailing list<br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D=
"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org">Teas@ietf.org</a><br cl=
ear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas">https://www=
.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a></p></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
<div class=3D"yqt2659673603" id=3D"yqt10795">______________________________=
_________________<br clear=3D"none">Teas mailing list<br clear=3D"none"><a =
shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.or=
g">Teas@ietf.org</a><br clear=3D"none"><a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://ww=
w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/teas</a><br clear=3D"none"></div></div>
            </div>
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
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CC: "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] A slice is not an enhanced VPN [Was: draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices: Network Slice vs. VPN(+)]
Thread-Index: AddP/rHJ9cY6i5rXS42jSm/6VjVVOQCDTryg
Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 08:54:58 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Teas] A slice is not an enhanced VPN [Was: draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices: Network Slice vs. VPN(+)]
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] New revision: draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-03.txt
Thread-Index: AddQGgjjPNHIAy4gQdSE1NyxH116pQB+BsvQ
Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 09:57:34 +0000
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Hi Adrian,=20

Thank you for this updated version.=20

Please find below two comments about Sections 3 and 4, fwiw.=20

(1) It seems there is an internal inconsistency as we say in 3.1:

   An IETF Network Slice is a logical network topology connecting a
   number of endpoints using a set of shared or dedicated network
   resources that are used to satisfy specific Service Level Objectives
   (SLOs).

while we have in 4.1:
   An IETF Network Slice service is defined in terms of quantifiable
   characteristics known as Service Level Objectives (SLOs) and
   unquantifiable characteristics known as Service Level Expectations
   (SLEs).  SLOs are expressed in terms Service Level Indicators (SLIs),
   and together with the SLEs form the contractual agreement between
   service customer and service provider known as a Service Level
   Agreement (SLA).

I think this can be easily solved by removing the SLO/SLE taxonomy.=20

Things would be much simpler if we just focus on service requirements witho=
ut making an assumption how such requirement is expressed and whether it is=
 quantified/quantitative/qualitative/measurable/etc. Whether/how a specific=
 service requirement is covered by service assurance/fulfillment can be par=
t of the slice service definition itself.=20

Also, some of the items that are tagged as SLEs are questionable. I'm think=
ing about the encryption, for example. This can be verified at the provided=
-facing interfaces or at SF (if such resources are part of the slices).=20

We are adding extra complexity for the modelling part as service requiremen=
ts will need to be classified based as SLO or SLEs. If that classification =
won't drive the modelling, that's a reason to remove it.=20

An "expectation" may not be easily assessed using current techniques (and t=
hus be tagged as SLE), but this does not prevent that innovative means woul=
d be defined in the future (which means that it is an SLO, not an SLE anymo=
re). For example, proof of transit mechanisms can be used to assess the nod=
es that were crossed and may fed any non-via constraint in the SLE/SLO. How=
ever, PoT have some implications on the underlay nodes.  More optimized mea=
ns would be proposed in the future.=20
=20
What is really important for the customer to assess that the delivered slic=
e service is aligned with the requested slice service. A specific "SLO" may=
 be honored, but the overall delivered slice service isn't.=20

(2) It seems that some clean-up is in needed in 4.1.1:

=3D=3D
   SLOs define a set of network attributes and characteristics that
   describe an IETF Network Slice.  SLOs do not describe how the IETF
   Network Slices are implemented or realized in the underlying network
   layers.  Instead, they are defined in terms of dimensions of
   operation (time, capacity, etc.), availability, and other attributes.
   An IETF Network Slice can have one or more SLOs associated with it.
   The SLOs are combined in an SLA.=20=20
=3D=3D

vs.=20

=3D=3D
   SLOs define a set of measurable network attributes and
   characteristics that describe an IETF Network Slice service.  SLOs do
   not describe how the IETF network slices are implemented or realized
   in the underlying network layers.  Instead, they are defined in terms
   of dimensions of operation (time, capacity, etc.), availability, and
   other attributes.  An IETF Network Slice service can have one or more
   SLOs associated with it.  The SLOs are combined with Service Level
   Expectations in an SLA.
=3D=3D

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian Farrel
> Envoy=E9=A0: dimanche 23 mai 2021 23:25
> =C0=A0: teas@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: [Teas] New revision: draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-
> 03.txt
>=20
> Hi WG,
>=20
> This is a housekeeping revision.
>=20
> - Picked up some editorial comments from Kenichi and Xiaobing.
>=20
> - Moved the definition of 'customer' up to section 2.1 as requested
> by
>   several people
>=20
> - Added a definition of 'provider' to section 2.1 per Oscar
>=20
> - Fix (i.e., remove) use of "Network Slice User"
>=20
> Cheers,
> Adrian
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of internet-
> drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: 23 May 2021 22:03
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: teas@ietf.org
> Subject: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-
> 03.txt
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and
> Signaling WG of the IETF.
>=20
>         Title           : Framework for IETF Network Slices
>         Authors         : Adrian Farrel
>                           Eric Gray
>                           John Drake
>                           Reza Rokui
>                           Shunsuke Homma
>                           Kiran Makhijani
>                           Luis M. Contreras
>                           Jeff Tantsura
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices-03.txt
> 	Pages           : 32
> 	Date            : 2021-05-23
>=20
> Abstract:
>    This document describes network slicing in the context of networks
>    built from IETF technologies.  It defines the term "IETF Network
>    Slice" and establishes the general principles of network slicing
> in
>    the IETF context.
>=20
>    The document discusses the general framework for requesting and
>    operating IETF Network Slices, the characteristics of an IETF
> Network
>    Slice, the necessary system components and interfaces, and how
>    abstract requests can be mapped to more specific technologies.
> The
>    document also discusses related considerations with monitoring and
>    security.
>=20
>    This document also provides definitions of related terms to enable
>    consistent usage in other IETF documents that describe or use
> aspects
>    of IETF Network Slices.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slices/
>=20
> There is also an htmlized version available at:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-
> slices-03
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-
> slices-03
>=20
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Teas mailing list
> Teas@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Teas mailing list
> Teas@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

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To: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing
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Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 17:32:05 +0000 (UTC)
From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
To: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>,  Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing
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 Hi Daniele,
If I understood you correctly, you believe that SFs must be visible only to=
 the orchestrator (entity responsable for the e2e service) and should not b=
e considered in the IETF slices.
I have two problems with this:1) scalability: the number of slices that nee=
d to be stitched together would depend on number of SFs in the SFC;2) The v=
ery choice of SF location could be optimized depending on SLOs between adja=
cent SFs. You seem to believe that SF location is always fixed. I heard peo=
ple talking about duel optimization path computation algorithms selecting b=
est possible compromise between SF location and TE characteristics of trans=
port connecting them into chains.
Cheers,Igor
    On Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 11:58:40 AM EDT, Daniele Ceccarelli <daniel=
e.ceccarelli=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: =20
=20
 #yiv8543116016 #yiv8543116016 -- _filtered {} _filtered {} _filtered {}#yi=
v8543116016 #yiv8543116016 p.yiv8543116016MsoNormal, #yiv8543116016 li.yiv8=
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Hi Adrian, Igor,
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
I was trying to think where this augmented (meaning: connectivity + service=
 functions) model would be used.
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
The architecture that seems to be the most widely adopted is the one shown =
in picture below. I would say that the NSC is a functionality of the transp=
ort orchestrator (pass me the term transport), but that component in many c=
ases, if not all, will only be capable to see connectivity and not service =
functions, which most likely will be managed by the cloud orchestrator=E2=
=80=A6hence I see it hardly applicable to interface B.=20
=20
At the same time I don=E2=80=99t think this model would be used over interf=
ace A, there I would see something more TMF like.
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
What=E2=80=99s your opinion? Where do you think model would fit? A? B? Both=
?
=20
 =C2=A0
=20

=20
 =C2=A0
=20
BR
Daniele=C2=A0=20
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org>On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin
Sent: den 24 maj 2021 16:45
To: teas@ietf.org; Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
Right. I suppose we need to hear from operators. Specifically, focusing on =
the delay SLO I'd like to ask:
=20
1. Is it possible that requested SFs in an SFC need to be time synchronized=
 in a client specific way?
=20
2. If e2e delays D, how the network is supposed to spend the delay budget b=
etween SFs in the requested SFC:
=20
a) arbitrarily;
=20
b) evenly.
=20
c) in proportion specified by the client
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
Cheers,
=20
Igor
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
On Monday, May 24, 2021, 08:49:31 AM EDT, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.u=
k> wrote:
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
It=E2=80=99s an interesting question : =E2=80=9CWhat would happen if the di=
fferent parts of the SFC needed different SLOs?=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 But that is =
an =E2=80=9Cif=E2=80=9D. I wonder whether we can decide whether this is lik=
ely.
=20
=C2=A0
=20
Consider an end-to-end flow. We can easily decide on the end-to-end SLOs. F=
or example, there may be an end-to-end latency requirement. But it seems un=
likely that there is a special latency requirement between a pair of SFs. I=
s there an example, where the SF-to-SF SLO needs to be specific?
=20
=C2=A0
=20
Thanks,
=20
Adrian
=20
=C2=A0
=20
From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
Sent: 24 May 2021 13:22
To: teas@ietf.org; adrian@olddog.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing
=20
=C2=A0
=20
Hi Adrian,
=20
Thanks for giving to this some thoughts.
=20
I see a problem with the suggested plan if it turns out along the road that=
 in a requested by a client SFC SF1-> SF2->...->SFn different sets=C2=A0 of=
 SLOs=C2=A0 are required for each/some SFi->SFj links, as well as e2e acros=
s the slice. I suggested one way to address this by describing slices as SF=
 aware abstract topologies.
=20
Cheers,
=20
Igor
=20
GetOutlook for Android
=20
=C2=A0
=20
From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddo=
g.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2021 1:40:11 PM
To: teas@ietf.org <teas@ietf.org>
Cc: i_bryskin@yahoo.com <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Teas] SFC and slicing
=20
=C2=A0
=20
Hi,

Igor raised the question of "reconciling" the IETF work on service function
chaining and network slicing.

Some of the early discussions on network slicing considered not just
connectivity resources (buffers and bandwidth), but also other resources
that might be found in the network (like storage and compute). I was one of
the people suggesting this, and I know there were others. This would
certainly go some way to bridge the gap to SFC.

However, my understanding is that the design team (and others in the WG)
wanted to push ahead with the definitions for the connectivity resources
first, and consider adding other resources later.

I think this is wise. We have taken quite a long time to get to this point
(especially if you consider the early network slicing BoF), and it is
certainly the case that the first deployment drive is for connectivity
resources. Perhaps we should sort that out first.

That said, I don't think that adding other service descriptions would be
hard. It feels like the definition of further SLOs and SLEs.=20

If we want to continue this discussion, we should probably involve the SFC
working group to see how they feel about it. But anyone who is interested i=
n
this could certainly begin work on specifying the SLOs and SLEs that they
will want to see added to the NBI.

Best,
Adrian

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
=20
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
 _______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
 =20
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<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydp2f960376yahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px=
;"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Hi Daniele,</div><div dir=3D=
"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false=
">If I understood you correctly, you believe that SFs must be visible only =
to the orchestrator (entity responsable for the e2e service) and should not=
 be considered in the IETF slices.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"fal=
se"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">I have two problems wi=
th this:</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">1) scalability: the nu=
mber of slices that need to be stitched together would depend on number of =
SFs in the SFC;</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">2) The very cho=
ice of SF location could be optimized depending on SLOs between adjacent SF=
s. You seem to believe that SF location is always fixed. I heard people tal=
king about duel optimization path computation algorithms selecting best pos=
sible compromise between SF location and TE characteristics of transport co=
nnecting them into chains.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Cheers,</div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false"><msreadoutspan class=3D"msreadout-line-highlight"><ms=
readoutspan class=3D"msreadout-word-highlight">Igor</msreadoutspan></msread=
outspan></div><div><br></div>
       =20
        </div><div id=3D"yahoo_quoted_2099239623" class=3D"yahoo_quoted">
            <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
               =20
                <div>
                    On Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 11:58:40 AM EDT, Daniele Ce=
ccarelli &lt;daniele.ceccarelli=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt; wrote:
                </div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><div id=3D"yiv8543116016"><style>#yiv8543116016 #yiv85=
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<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;">Hi Adrian, Igor,</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">I was trying to think where this augmented=
 (meaning: connectivity + service functions) model would be used.</span></p=
>=20
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">The architecture that seems to be the most=
 widely adopted is the one shown in picture below. I would say that the NSC=
 is a functionality
 of the transport orchestrator (pass me the term transport), but that compo=
nent in many cases, if not all, will only be capable to see connectivity an=
d not service functions, which most likely will be managed by the cloud orc=
hestrator=E2=80=A6hence I see it hardly
 applicable to interface B. </span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">At the same time I don=E2=80=99t think thi=
s model would be used over interface A, there I would see something more TM=
F like.</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">What=E2=80=99s your opinion? Where do you =
think model would fit? A? B? Both?</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"><img id=3D"yiv8543116016Picture_x0020_1" w=
idth=3D"765" height=3D"298" style=3D"width:7.9666in;min-height:3.1083in;" s=
rc=3D"cid:oYYJ1wXH3OMxEZAUEyWS"></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"></span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">BR<br clear=3D"none">
Daniele&nbsp; </span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt;">
<div class=3D"yiv8543116016yqt0677853476" id=3D"yiv8543116016yqt86168"><div=
>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm;">
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> Teas &lt;teas-bounces@iet=
f.org&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Igor Bryskin<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Sent:</b> den 24 maj 2021 16:45<br clear=3D"none">
<b>To:</b> teas@ietf.org; Adrian Farrel &lt;adrian@olddog.co.uk&gt;<br clea=
r=3D"none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing</span></p>=20
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</p>=20
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;">Right. I suppose we need to hear from operators. Specifically,=
 focusing on the delay SLO I'd like to ask:</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;">1. Is it possible that requested SFs in an SFC need to be time=
 synchronized in a client specific way?</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;">2. If e2e delays D, how the network is supposed to spend the d=
elay budget between SFs in the requested SFC:</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;">a) arbitrarily;</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;">b) evenly.</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;">c) in proportion specified by the client</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;">Cheers,</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;">Igor</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"yiv8543116016yahoo_quoted_2405513004">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;color:#26282A;">On Monday, May 24, 2021, 08:49:31 AM EDT, Adrian=
 Farrel &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:adrian@old=
dog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:
</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;color:#26282A;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;color:#26282A;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<div id=3D"yiv8543116016">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;color:#26282A;">It=E2=80=99s an interesting question : =E2=80=9C=
What would happen if the different parts of the SFC needed different SLOs?=
=E2=80=9D&nbsp; But that is an =E2=80=9Cif=E2=80=9D. I wonder whether
 we can decide whether this is likely.</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;color:#26282A;">&nbsp;</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;color:#26282A;">Consider an end-to-end flow. We can easily decid=
e on the end-to-end SLOs. For example, there may be an end-to-end latency r=
equirement. But it seems
 unlikely that there is a special latency requirement between a pair of SFs=
. Is there an example, where the SF-to-SF SLO needs to be specific?</span><=
/p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;color:#26282A;">&nbsp;</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;color:#26282A;">Thanks,</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;color:#26282A;">Adrian</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;color:#26282A;">&nbsp;</span></p>=20
<div id=3D"yiv8543116016yqt44278">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm;">
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016msonormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;"> Igor Br=
yskin &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D=
"mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:i_bryskin@yah=
oo.com">i_bryskin@yahoo.com</a>&gt;
<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Sent:</b> 24 May 2021 13:22<br clear=3D"none">
<b>To:</b> <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">t=
eas@ietf.org</a>; <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ym=
ailto=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:adria=
n@olddog.co.uk">
adrian@olddog.co.uk</a><br clear=3D"none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing</span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;color:#26282A;">&nbsp;</span></p>=20
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;color:black;">Hi Adrian,
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;"></=
span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016msonormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Thanks for gi=
ving to this some thoughts.
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;"></=
span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016msonormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">I see a probl=
em with the suggested plan if it turns out along the road that in a request=
ed by a client SFC SF1-&gt; SF2-&gt;...-&gt;SFn
 different sets&nbsp; of SLOs&nbsp; are required for each/some SFi-&gt;SFj =
links, as well as e2e across the slice. I suggested one way to address this=
 by describing slices as SF aware abstract topologies.
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;"></=
span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;color:black;">Cheers,
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;"></=
span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016msonormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Igor
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;"></=
span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;color:black;">Get
<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" hr=
ef=3D"https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D513a5706-0ea16fd4-513a179d-86=
6132fe445e-e8d21cc567bd8f43&amp;q=3D1&amp;e=3Dda75fd5d-9f07-47b6-96bf-3011c=
6879f6d&amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fghei36">
Outlook for Android</a></span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:s=
erif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;color:black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
<div align=3D"center" class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:=
center;"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;">
</span><hr align=3D"center" size=3D"2" width=3D"98%">
</div>
<div id=3D"yiv8543116016divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016msonormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:serif;color:black;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;color:black;"> Teas &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener nore=
ferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank" href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
 on behalf of Adrian Farrel &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" sha=
pe=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"non=
e">
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 23, 2021 1:40:11 PM<br clear=3D"none">
<b>To:</b> <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">t=
eas@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect"=
 ymailto=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:teas@iet=
f.org">teas@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Cc:</b> <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:i_bryskin@=
yahoo.com">i_bryskin@yahoo.com</a> &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferr=
er" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 href=3D"mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com">i_bryskin@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br clear=
=3D"none">
<b>Subject:</b> [Teas] SFC and slicing</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;">
</span></p>=20
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;color:#26282A;">&nbsp;</span></p>=20
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;color:#26282A;">Hi,<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Igor raised the question of "reconciling" the IETF work on service function=
<br clear=3D"none">
chaining and network slicing.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Some of the early discussions on network slicing considered not just<br cle=
ar=3D"none">
connectivity resources (buffers and bandwidth), but also other resources<br=
 clear=3D"none">
that might be found in the network (like storage and compute). I was one of=
<br clear=3D"none">
the people suggesting this, and I know there were others. This would<br cle=
ar=3D"none">
certainly go some way to bridge the gap to SFC.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
However, my understanding is that the design team (and others in the WG)<br=
 clear=3D"none">
wanted to push ahead with the definitions for the connectivity resources<br=
 clear=3D"none">
first, and consider adding other resources later.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
I think this is wise. We have taken quite a long time to get to this point<=
br clear=3D"none">
(especially if you consider the early network slicing BoF), and it is<br cl=
ear=3D"none">
certainly the case that the first deployment drive is for connectivity<br c=
lear=3D"none">
resources. Perhaps we should sort that out first.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
That said, I don't think that adding other service descriptions would be<br=
 clear=3D"none">
hard. It feels like the definition of further SLOs and SLEs. <br clear=3D"n=
one">
<br clear=3D"none">
If we want to continue this discussion, we should probably involve the SFC<=
br clear=3D"none">
working group to see how they feel about it. But anyone who is interested i=
n<br clear=3D"none">
this could certainly begin work on specifying the SLOs and SLEs that they<b=
r clear=3D"none">
will want to see added to the NBI.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Best,<br clear=3D"none">
Adrian<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
_______________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">
Teas mailing list<br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Te=
as@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org">Teas@ietf.org<=
/a><br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" hr=
ef=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas">https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/teas</a></span></p>=20
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"yiv8543116016yqt10795">
<p class=3D"yiv8543116016MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:serif;color:#26282A;">_______________________________________________<=
br clear=3D"none">
Teas mailing list<br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Te=
as@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org">Teas@ietf.org<=
/a><br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" hr=
ef=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas">https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/teas</a></span></p>=20
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><div class=3D"yqt0677853476" id=3D"yqt19897">__________________=
_____________________________<br clear=3D"none">Teas mailing list<br clear=
=3D"none"><a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto=
:Teas@ietf.org">Teas@ietf.org</a><br clear=3D"none"><a shape=3D"rect" href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" target=3D"_blank">https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br clear=3D"none"></div></div>
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Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 11:50:38 -0700
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: "=?utf-8?Q?teas=40ietf.org?=" <teas@ietf.org>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing
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Daniele is correct wrt today=E2=80=99 deployments.

I do think, similarly to Igor=E2=80=99 comments below,
looking at further disaggregation (X-haul) and moving towards the edge, w=
here location and proximity of S=46s=C2=A0=C2=A0becomes crucial to be abl=
e to provide optimized workload placement while still meeting the SLOs re=
quested, common view of transport and service topologies would be needed =
and eventually would be interdependent.

Pragmatically (and in line with Adrian proposal) - I think we should cont=
inue progressing connectivity centric work independently, while in parall=
el working on=C2=A0=C2=A0S=46 awareness=C2=A0=C2=A0and=C2=A0=C2=A0end2end=
 workflows/data-models.

Cheers,
Jeff
On May 26, 2021, 10:43 AM -0700, Igor Bryskin <i=5Fbryskin=3D40yahoo.com=40=
dmarc.ietf.org>, wrote:
> Hi Daniele,
>
> If I understood you correctly, you believe that S=46s must be visible o=
nly to the orchestrator (entity responsable for the e2e service) and shou=
ld not be considered in the IET=46 slices.
>
> I have two problems with this:
> 1) scalability: the number of slices that need to be stitched together =
would depend on number of S=46s in the S=46C;
> 2) The very choice of S=46 location could be optimized depending on SLO=
s between adjacent S=46s. You seem to believe that S=46 location is alway=
s fixed. I heard people talking about duel optimization path computation =
algorithms selecting best possible compromise between S=46 location and T=
E characteristics of transport connecting them into chains.
>
> Cheers,
> Igor
>
> On Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 11:58:40 AM EDT, Daniele Ceccarelli <daniel=
e.ceccarelli=3D40ericsson.com=40dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Adrian, Igor,
>
> I was trying to think where this augmented (meaning: connectivity + ser=
vice functions) model would be used.
>
> The architecture that seems to be the most widely adopted is the one sh=
own in picture below. I would say that the NSC is a functionality of the =
transport orchestrator (pass me the term transport), but that component i=
n many cases, if not all, will only be capable to see connectivity and no=
t service functions, which most likely will be managed by the cloud orche=
strator=E2=80=A6hence I see it hardly applicable to interface B.
> At the same time I don=E2=80=99t think this model would be used over in=
terface A, there I would see something more TM=46 like.
>
> What=E2=80=99s your opinion=3F Where do you think model would fit=3F A=3F=
 B=3F Both=3F
>
> <image003.png>
>
> BR
> Daniele
>
> =46rom: Teas <teas-bounces=40ietf.org> On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin
> Sent: den 24 maj 2021 16:45
> To: teas=40ietf.org; Adrian =46arrel <adrian=40olddog.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: =5BTeas=5D S=46C and slicing
>
> Right. I suppose we need to hear from operators. Specifically, focusing=
 on the delay SLO I'd like to ask:
> 1. Is it possible that requested S=46s in an S=46C need to be time sync=
hronized in a client specific way=3F
> 2. If e2e delays D, how the network is supposed to spend the delay budg=
et between S=46s in the requested S=46C:
> a) arbitrarily;
> b) evenly.
> c) in proportion specified by the client
>
>
> Cheers,
> Igor
>
>
> On Monday, May 24, 2021, 08:49:31 AM EDT, Adrian =46arrel <adrian=40old=
dog.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> It=E2=80=99s an interesting question : =E2=80=9CWhat would happen if th=
e different parts of the S=46C needed different SLOs=3F=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 Bu=
t that is an =E2=80=9Cif=E2=80=9D. I wonder whether we can decide whether=
 this is likely.
>
> Consider an end-to-end flow. We can easily decide on the end-to-end SLO=
s. =46or example, there may be an end-to-end latency requirement. But it =
seems unlikely that there is a special latency requirement between a pair=
 of S=46s. Is there an example, where the S=46-to-S=46 SLO needs to be sp=
ecific=3F
>
> Thanks,
> Adrian
>
> =46rom: Igor Bryskin <i=5Fbryskin=40yahoo.com>
> Sent: 24 May 2021 13:22
> To: teas=40ietf.org; adrian=40olddog.co.uk
> Subject: Re: =5BTeas=5D S=46C and slicing
>
> Hi Adrian,
> Thanks for giving to this some thoughts.
> I see a problem with the suggested plan if it turns out along the road =
that in a requested by a client S=46C S=461-> S=462->...->S=46n different=
 sets=C2=A0 of SLOs=C2=A0 are required for each/some S=46i->S=46j links, =
as well as e2e across the slice. I suggested one way to address this by d=
escribing slices as S=46 aware abstract topologies.
> Cheers,
> Igor
> Get Outlook for Android
>
> =46rom: Teas <teas-bounces=40ietf.org> on behalf of Adrian =46arrel <ad=
rian=40olddog.co.uk>
> Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2021 1:40:11 PM
> To: teas=40ietf.org <teas=40ietf.org>
> Cc: i=5Fbryskin=40yahoo.com <i=5Fbryskin=40yahoo.com>
> Subject: =5BTeas=5D S=46C and slicing
>
> Hi,
>
> Igor raised the question of =22reconciling=22 the IET=46 work on servic=
e function
> chaining and network slicing.
>
> Some of the early discussions on network slicing considered not just
> connectivity resources (buffers and bandwidth), but also other resource=
s
> that might be found in the network (like storage and compute). I was on=
e of
> the people suggesting this, and I know there were others. This would
> certainly go some way to bridge the gap to S=46C.
>
> However, my understanding is that the design team (and others in the WG=
)
> wanted to push ahead with the definitions for the connectivity resource=
s
> first, and consider adding other resources later.
>
> I think this is wise. We have taken quite a long time to get to this po=
int
> (especially if you consider the early network slicing Bo=46), and it is=

> certainly the case that the first deployment drive is for connectivity
> resources. Perhaps we should sort that out first.
>
> That said, I don't think that adding other service descriptions would b=
e
> hard. It feels like the definition of further SLOs and SLEs.
>
> If we want to continue this discussion, we should probably involve the =
S=46C
> working group to see how they feel about it. But anyone who is interest=
ed in
> this could certainly begin work on specifying the SLOs and SLEs that th=
ey
> will want to see added to the NBI.
>
> Best,
> Adrian
>
> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
> Teas mailing list
> Teas=40ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
> Teas mailing list
> Teas=40ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
> Teas mailing list
> Teas=40ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
> Teas mailing list
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<html xmlns=3D=22http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml=22>
<head>
<title></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D=22messageBodySection=22>
<div dir=3D=22auto=22>Daniele is correct wrt today=E2=80=99 deployments.<=
br />
<br />
I do think, similarly to Igor=E2=80=99 comments below,&=23160;<br />
looking at further disaggregation (X-haul) and moving towards the edge, w=
here location and proximity of S=46s&=23160;&=23160;becomes crucial to be=
 able to provide optimized workload placement while still meeting the SLO=
s requested, common view of transport and service topologies would be nee=
ded and eventually would be interdependent.&=23160;<br />
<br />
Pragmatically (and in line with Adrian proposal) - I think we should cont=
inue progressing connectivity centric work independently, while in parall=
el working on&=23160;&=23160;S=46 awareness&=23160;&=23160;and&=23160;&=23=
160;end2end workflows/data-models.&=23160;</div>
</div>
<div name=3D=22messageSignatureSection=22><br />
<div class=3D=22match=46ont=22>Cheers,
<div>Jeff</div>
</div>
</div>
<div name=3D=22messageReplySection=22>On May 26, 2021, 10:43 AM -0700, Ig=
or Bryskin &lt;i=5Fbryskin=3D40yahoo.com=40dmarc.ietf.org&gt;, wrote:<br =
/>
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 style=3D=22border-left-color: grey; border-=
left-width: thin; border-left-style: solid; margin: 5px 5px;padding-left:=
 10px;=22>
<div class=3D=22ydp2f960376yahoo-style-wrap=22 style=3D=22font-family:Hel=
vetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;=22>
<div></div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22 data-setdir=3D=22false=22>Hi Daniele,</div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22 data-setdir=3D=22false=22><br /></div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22 data-setdir=3D=22false=22>If I understood you correc=
tly, you believe that S=46s must be visible only to the orchestrator (ent=
ity responsable for the e2e service) and should not be considered in the =
IET=46 slices.</div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22 data-setdir=3D=22false=22><br /></div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22 data-setdir=3D=22false=22>I have two problems with t=
his:</div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22 data-setdir=3D=22false=22>1) scalability: the number=
 of slices that need to be stitched together would depend on number of S=46=
s in the S=46C;</div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22 data-setdir=3D=22false=22>2) The very choice of S=46=
 location could be optimized depending on SLOs between adjacent S=46s. Yo=
u seem to believe that S=46 location is always fixed. I heard people talk=
ing about duel optimization path computation algorithms selecting best po=
ssible compromise between S=46 location and TE characteristics of transpo=
rt connecting them into chains.</div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22 data-setdir=3D=22false=22><br /></div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22 data-setdir=3D=22false=22>Cheers,</div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22 data-setdir=3D=22false=22>Igor</div>
<div><br /></div>
</div>
<div id=3D=22yahoo=5Fquoted=5F2099239623=22 class=3D=22yahoo=5Fquoted=22>=

<div style=3D=22font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-seri=
f;font-size:13px;color:=2326282a;=22>
<div>On Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 11:58:40 AM EDT, Daniele Ceccarelli &lt;=
daniele.ceccarelli=3D40ericsson.com=40dmarc.ietf.org&gt; wrote:</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>
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<div class=3D=22yiv8543116016WordSection1=22>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:sans-serif;=22>Hi Adrian, Igor,</span></p>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:sans-serif;=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=
=22font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>I w=
as trying to think where this augmented (meaning: connectivity + service =
functions) model would be used.</span></p>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=
=22font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>&=23=
160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=
=22font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>The=
 architecture that seems to be the most widely adopted is the one shown i=
n picture below. I would say that the NSC is a functionality of the trans=
port orchestrator (pass me the term transport), but that component in man=
y cases, if not all, will only be capable to see connectivity and not ser=
vice functions, which most likely will be managed by the cloud orchestrat=
or=E2=80=A6hence I see it hardly applicable to interface B.</span></p>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=
=22font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>At =
the same time I don=E2=80=99t think this model would be used over interfa=
ce A, there I would see something more TM=46 like.</span></p>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=
=22font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>&=23=
160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=
=22font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>Wha=
t=E2=80=99s your opinion=3F Where do you think model would fit=3F A=3F B=3F=
 Both=3F</span></p>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=
=22font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>&=23=
160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=
=22font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>&lt=
;image003.png&gt;</span><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:sans-serif;=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22></span></p>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=
=22font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>&=23=
160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=
=22font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>BR<=
br clear=3D=22none=22 />
Daniele&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=
=22font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>&=23=
160;</span></p>
<div style=3D=22border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt;=22>
<div class=3D=22yiv8543116016yqt0677853476=22 id=3D=22yiv8543116016yqt861=
68=22>
<div>
<div style=3D=22border:none;border-top:solid =23E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0p=
t 0cm 0cm 0cm;=22>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><b><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=
=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>=
=46rom:</span></b> <span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;f=
ont-family:sans-serif;=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>Teas &lt;teas-bounces=40=
ietf.org&gt; <b>On Behalf Of</b> Igor Bryskin<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
<b>Sent:</b> den 24 maj 2021 16:45<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
<b>To:</b> teas=40ietf.org; Adrian =46arrel &lt;adrian=40olddog.co.uk&gt;=
<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
<b>Subject:</b> Re: =5BTeas=5D S=46C and slicing</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22>&=23160;</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;=22>Right. I suppose we need to hear from operators. S=
pecifically, focusing on the delay SLO I'd like to ask:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;=22>1. Is it possible that requested S=46s in an S=46C=
 need to be time synchronized in a client specific way=3F</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;=22>2. If e2e delays D, how the network is supposed to=
 spend the delay budget between S=46s in the requested S=46C:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;=22>a) arbitrarily;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;=22>b) evenly.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;=22>c) in proportion specified by the client</span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;=22>&=23160;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;=22>&=23160;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;=22>Cheers,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;=22>Igor</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;=22>&=23160;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;=22>&=23160;</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D=22yiv8543116016yahoo=5Fquoted=5F2405513004=22>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22>On Monday, May 24, 2021, 08:49:31 =
AM EDT, Adrian =46arrel &lt;<a rel=3D=22nofollow noopener noreferrer=22 s=
hape=3D=22rect=22 ymailto=3D=22mailto:adrian=40olddog.co.uk=22 target=3D=22=
=5Fblank=22 href=3D=22mailto:adrian=40olddog.co.uk=22>adrian=40olddog.co.=
uk</a>&gt; wrote:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22>&=23160;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22>&=23160;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div id=3D=22yiv8543116016=22>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016msonormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22>It=E2=80=99s an interesting questi=
on : =E2=80=9CWhat would happen if the different parts of the S=46C neede=
d different SLOs=3F=E2=80=9D&=23160; But that is an =E2=80=9Cif=E2=80=9D.=
 I wonder whether we can decide whether this is likely.</span></p>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016msonormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016msonormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22>Consider an end-to-end flow. We ca=
n easily decide on the end-to-end SLOs. =46or example, there may be an en=
d-to-end latency requirement. But it seems unlikely that there is a speci=
al latency requirement between a pair of S=46s. Is there an example, wher=
e the S=46-to-S=46 SLO needs to be specific=3F</span></p>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016msonormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016msonormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22>Thanks,</span></p>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016msonormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22>Adrian</span></p>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016msonormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<div id=3D=22yiv8543116016yqt44278=22>
<div>
<div style=3D=22border:none;border-top:solid =23E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0p=
t 0cm 0cm 0cm;=22>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016msonormal=22><b><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=
=3D=22font-size:10.0pt;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22 xml:lang=3D=22=
EN-US=22>=46rom:</span></b> <span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>Igor=
 Bryskin &lt;<a rel=3D=22nofollow noopener noreferrer=22 shape=3D=22rect=22=
 ymailto=3D=22mailto:i=5Fbryskin=40yahoo.com=22 target=3D=22=5Fblank=22 h=
ref=3D=22mailto:i=5Fbryskin=40yahoo.com=22>i=5Fbryskin=40yahoo.com</a>&gt=
;<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
<b>Sent:</b> 24 May 2021 13:22<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
<b>To:</b> <a rel=3D=22nofollow noopener noreferrer=22 shape=3D=22rect=22=
 ymailto=3D=22mailto:teas=40ietf.org=22 target=3D=22=5Fblank=22 href=3D=22=
mailto:teas=40ietf.org=22>teas=40ietf.org</a>; <a rel=3D=22nofollow noope=
ner noreferrer=22 shape=3D=22rect=22 ymailto=3D=22mailto:adrian=40olddog.=
co.uk=22 target=3D=22=5Fblank=22 href=3D=22mailto:adrian=40olddog.co.uk=22=
>adrian=40olddog.co.uk</a><br clear=3D=22none=22 />
<b>Subject:</b> Re: =5BTeas=5D S=46C and slicing</span><span style=3D=22f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016msonormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016msonormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;=22>Hi Adrian,</span> <span style=3D=22=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016msonormal=22 style=3D=22margin-bottom:12.0pt;=22=
><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;=22=
>Thanks for giving to this some thoughts.</span> <span style=3D=22font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016msonormal=22 style=3D=22margin-bottom:12.0pt;=22=
><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;=22=
>I see a problem with the suggested plan if it turns out along the road t=
hat in a requested by a client S=46C S=461-&gt; S=462-&gt;...-&gt;S=46n d=
ifferent sets&=23160; of SLOs&=23160; are required for each/some S=46i-&g=
t;S=46j links, as well as e2e across the slice. I suggested one way to ad=
dress this by describing slices as S=46 aware abstract topologies.</span>=
 <span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016msonormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;=22>Cheers,</span> <span style=3D=22f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016msonormal=22 style=3D=22margin-bottom:12.0pt;=22=
><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;=22=
>Igor</span> <span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt;font-family:serif;color:=23=
26282A;=22></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016msonormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;=22>Get <a rel=3D=22nofollow noopener=
 noreferrer=22 shape=3D=22rect=22 target=3D=22=5Fblank=22 href=3D=22https=
://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url=3Fk=3D513a5706-0ea16fd4-513a179d-866132fe4=
45e-e8d21cc567bd8f43&amp;q=3D1&amp;e=3Dda75fd5d-9f07-47b6-96bf-3011c6879f=
6d&amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2=46%2=46aka.ms%2=46ghei36=22>Outlook for Android</a>=
</span><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt;font-family:serif;color:=2326282=
A;=22></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016msonormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;=22>&=23160;</span><span style=3D=22f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22></span></p>
</div>
<div align=3D=22center=22 class=3D=22yiv8543116016MsoNormal=22 style=3D=22=
text-align:center;=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt;font-family:serif=
;color:=2326282A;=22></span>
<hr align=3D=22center=22 size=3D=222=22 width=3D=2298%=22 /></div>
<div id=3D=22yiv8543116016divRply=46wdMsg=22>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016msonormal=22><b><span style=3D=22font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:serif;color:black;=22>=46rom:</span></b> <span style=3D=22=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:serif;color:black;=22>Teas &lt;<a rel=3D=22n=
ofollow noopener noreferrer=22 shape=3D=22rect=22 ymailto=3D=22mailto:tea=
s-bounces=40ietf.org=22 target=3D=22=5Fblank=22 href=3D=22mailto:teas-bou=
nces=40ietf.org=22>teas-bounces=40ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Adrian =46=
arrel &lt;<a rel=3D=22nofollow noopener noreferrer=22 shape=3D=22rect=22 =
ymailto=3D=22mailto:adrian=40olddog.co.uk=22 target=3D=22=5Fblank=22 href=
=3D=22mailto:adrian=40olddog.co.uk=22>adrian=40olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;<br cl=
ear=3D=22none=22 />
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 23, 2021 1:40:11 PM<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
<b>To:</b> <a rel=3D=22nofollow noopener noreferrer=22 shape=3D=22rect=22=
 ymailto=3D=22mailto:teas=40ietf.org=22 target=3D=22=5Fblank=22 href=3D=22=
mailto:teas=40ietf.org=22>teas=40ietf.org</a> &lt;<a rel=3D=22nofollow no=
opener noreferrer=22 shape=3D=22rect=22 ymailto=3D=22mailto:teas=40ietf.o=
rg=22 target=3D=22=5Fblank=22 href=3D=22mailto:teas=40ietf.org=22>teas=40=
ietf.org</a>&gt;<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
<b>Cc:</b> <a rel=3D=22nofollow noopener noreferrer=22 shape=3D=22rect=22=
 ymailto=3D=22mailto:i=5Fbryskin=40yahoo.com=22 target=3D=22=5Fblank=22 h=
ref=3D=22mailto:i=5Fbryskin=40yahoo.com=22>i=5Fbryskin=40yahoo.com</a> &l=
t;<a rel=3D=22nofollow noopener noreferrer=22 shape=3D=22rect=22 ymailto=3D=
=22mailto:i=5Fbryskin=40yahoo.com=22 target=3D=22=5Fblank=22 href=3D=22ma=
ilto:i=5Fbryskin=40yahoo.com=22>i=5Fbryskin=40yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br clear=3D=
=22none=22 />
<b>Subject:</b> =5BTeas=5D S=46C and slicing</span> <span style=3D=22font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016msonormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22>&=23160;</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22yiv8543116016msonormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:serif;color:=2326282A;=22>Hi,<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
Igor raised the question of =22reconciling=22 the IET=46 work on service =
function<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
chaining and network slicing.<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
Some of the early discussions on network slicing considered not just<br c=
lear=3D=22none=22 />
connectivity resources (buffers and bandwidth), but also other resources<=
br clear=3D=22none=22 />
that might be found in the network (like storage and compute). I was one =
of<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
the people suggesting this, and I know there were others. This would<br c=
lear=3D=22none=22 />
certainly go some way to bridge the gap to S=46C.<br clear=3D=22none=22 /=
>
<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
However, my understanding is that the design team (and others in the WG)<=
br clear=3D=22none=22 />
wanted to push ahead with the definitions for the connectivity resources<=
br clear=3D=22none=22 />
first, and consider adding other resources later.<br clear=3D=22none=22 /=
>
<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
I think this is wise. We have taken quite a long time to get to this poin=
t<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
(especially if you consider the early network slicing Bo=46), and it is<b=
r clear=3D=22none=22 />
certainly the case that the first deployment drive is for connectivity<br=
 clear=3D=22none=22 />
resources. Perhaps we should sort that out first.<br clear=3D=22none=22 /=
>
<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
That said, I don't think that adding other service descriptions would be<=
br clear=3D=22none=22 />
hard. It feels like the definition of further SLOs and SLEs.<br clear=3D=22=
none=22 />
<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
If we want to continue this discussion, we should probably involve the S=46=
C<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
working group to see how they feel about it. But anyone who is interested=
 in<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
this could certainly begin work on specifying the SLOs and SLEs that they=
<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
will want to see added to the NBI.<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
Best,<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
Adrian<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
<br clear=3D=22none=22 />
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F<br cle=
ar=3D=22none=22 />
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From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 23:52:34 -0400
Message-ID: <CABNhwV1+_8acwEDB8fKLrep-XrQv-aAyUyOwKw_=hPsQGJ6wew@mail.gmail.com>
To: Mohamed BOUCADAIR <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
Cc: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
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Hi Adrian

Attached is the review of 3272bis version 11  word document with comments
along the side.

I added some verbiage in the abstract & introduction section describing the
three operator environments that exist 1. Public internet, 2. Private
domain with external customers, 3. Internal corporate intranet domain
Throughout the draft I changed "internet traffic engineering" to "traffic
engineering" as there are three unique use cases of traffic engineering
which I described each in detail.

Also once "traffic engineering (TE) referred to traffic engineering as
"TE"  is noted I believe my comment is in the intro section that we should
not have to spell TE out explicitly each time throughout the draft except
when a sentence starts with "traffic engineering".

Some minor comments throughout the draft.

Under the protection section I mentioned local protection which I think
should be mentioned LFA, RLFA, TI-LFA.

Section 6.2 - I had some comments related to ECMP that if you would like I
can do a write-up on ECMP.

Under 4.1.16 SR-MPLS is mentioned but not SRv6 so I thought it may be
worthwhile to mention SRv6 as uses SR-TE steering even though not mpls
based but as another form of steering using IPv6 data plane.

Lastly,

I noticed Multicast was not mentioned under IETF projects section or
anywhere else in the draft. I can add some verbiage to a section and talk
about P2MP TE & replication sid.  I did not comment on this in the draft as
no multicast section exists.

Kind Regards

Gyan

On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 11:26 AM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Hi Adrian
>
> I see you published a version 12.  I went through all of MEDs updates in
> version 11 and ensured that my updates are mutually exclusive no overlap =
of
> MEDs updates.
>
> I built my updated on version 11.  I am almost done and will send out
> tomorrow night.
>
> Thanks
>
> Gyan
>
> On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 11:00 AM <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Adrian,
>>
>> Thank you for the replies. Here is some few follow-up points:
>>
>> * s/within the control plane or by controllers/within the control or
>> management plane
>>
>> * "I'm not clear about the term "resource-based access control". Do you
>> mean "policing"? If so, yes. Policing is mentioned just two sentences la=
ter"
>>
>> I actually meant resource-based admission control. This is now covered b=
y
>> the new section you added. Thanks.
>>
>> * " The word "economically" is, I think, giving you a different meaning
>> to what is intended. I think the word is not intended to just mean
>> "financially economical", but also to mean "not wasteful or profligate."
>> This is similar to "efficient", but not the same. In this context,
>> "economically" would certainly apply to power use, money, and any other
>> resource.
>> I spent a little time trying to think of an equivalent word (because if
>> it is causing you unrest, it will do the same for other readers), but I =
was
>> unable to think of one.":
>>
>> The concern I had is that the observed behavior is conditioned by the
>> metrics/attributes/information that can be disseminated and acted upon.
>> Optimizing the forwarding with a set of metrics as inputs does not
>> guarantee that the overall forwarding is economically-optimized. That's =
why
>> I provided the example of power-consumption. Such optimization is not
>> currently supported at the level of a network (despite that some
>> optimization can be made at the node/card level).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Med
>>
>> > -----Message d'origine-----
>> > De : Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
>> > Envoy=C3=A9 : samedi 15 mai 2021 19:40
>> > =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
>> > Objet : RE: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
>> >
>> > Here's the file.
>> >
>> > Many thanks for looking at this.
>> >
>> > Adrian
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
>> > Sent: 15 May 2021 18:11
>> > To: 'mohamed.boucadair@orange.com' <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>;
>> > 'teas@ietf.org' <teas@ietf.org>
>> > Cc: 'TEAS WG Chairs' <teas-chairs@ietf.org>
>> > Subject: RE: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
>> >
>> > Hi Med,
>> >
>> > Thanks for all of your comments.
>> >
>> > Nearly everything is accepted and included.
>> >
>> > Not sure the best way to respond to your Word file, so I embedded my
>> > responses and I'll send it to you under separate cover (no need to
>> > spam the mailing list).
>> >
>> > There'll be a -12 along soon to capture your improvements.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Adrian
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
>> > Sent: 03 May 2021 15:49
>> > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; teas@ietf.org
>> > Cc: 'TEAS WG Chairs' <teas-chairs@ietf.org>
>> > Subject: RE: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
>> >
>> > Hi Adrian, all,
>> >
>> > FWIW, you may find some comments at:
>> > * pdf:
>> > https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blob/master/draft-
>> > ietf-teas
>> > -rfc3272bis-11-rev%20Med.pdf
>> > * doc:
>> > https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/master/draft-
>> > ietf-teas-
>> > rfc3272bis-11-rev%20Med.docx
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Med
>> >
>> > > -----Message d'origine-----
>> > > De : Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Adrian
>> > Farrel
>> > > Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 7 avril 2021 21:24 =C3=80 : teas@ietf.org Cc =
: 'TEAS
>> > WG
>> > > Chairs' <teas-chairs@ietf.org> Objet : Re: [Teas] I-D Action:
>> > > draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
>> > >
>> > > With this version I have filled in the remaining TBDs:
>> > > - small section on intent-based network
>> > > - small section on multi-layer TE (thanks, Lou, for the suggestion)
>> > > - change log from 3272
>> > >
>> > > As far as I'm concerned this document is complete modulo review
>> > > comments.
>> > >
>> > > It *really* needs review, but I can't force you!
>> > > Maybe you can look at the sections of special interest to you?
>> > > Maybe the original Design Team could take another look?
>> > >
>> > > Otherwise: time for WG last call?
>> > >
>> > > Thanks,
>> > > Adrian
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: I-D-Announce <i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of
>> > > internet-drafts@ietf.org
>> > > Sent: 07 April 2021 19:25
>> > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>> > > Cc: teas@ietf.org
>> > > Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>> > > directories.
>> > > This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture
>> > and
>> > > Signaling WG of the IETF.
>> > >
>> > >         Title           : Overview and Principles of Internet
>> > Traffic
>> > > Engineering
>> > >         Author          : Adrian Farrel
>> > >     Filename        : draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt
>> > >     Pages           : 91
>> > >     Date            : 2021-04-07
>> > >
>> > > Abstract:
>> > >    This document describes the principles of traffic engineering
>> > (TE)
>> > > in
>> > >    the Internet.  The document is intended to promote better
>> > >    understanding of the issues surrounding traffic engineering in
>> > IP
>> > >    networks and the networks that support IP networking, and to
>> > > provide
>> > >    a common basis for the development of traffic engineering
>> > >    capabilities for the Internet.  The principles, architectures,
>> > and
>> > >    methodologies for performance evaluation and performance
>> > > optimization
>> > >    of operational networks are also discussed.
>> > >
>> > >    This work was first published as RFC 3272 in May 2002.  This
>> > > document
>> > >    obsoletes RFC 3272 by making a complete update to bring the text
>> > in
>> > >    line with best current practices for Internet traffic
>> > engineering
>> > > and
>> > >    to include references to the latest relevant work in the IETF.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis/
>> > >
>> > > There are also htmlized versions available at:
>> > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
>> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
>> > >
>> > > A diff from the previous version is available at:
>> > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
>> > > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at
>> > > tools.ietf.org.
>> > >
>> > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > I-D-Announce mailing list
>> > > I-D-Announce@ietf.org
>> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>> > > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or
>> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Teas mailing list
>> > > Teas@ietf.org
>> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>> >
>> > _____________________________________________________________________
>> > _______
>> > _____________________________________________
>> >
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>> > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses,
>> > exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message
>> > par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi
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>>
>> ________________________________________________________________________=
_________________________________________________
>>
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
>> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez
>> recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages
>> electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme
>> ou falsifie. Merci.
>>
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged
>> information that may be protected by law;
>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and
>> delete this message and its attachments.
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> --
>
> <http://www.verizon.com/>
>
> *Gyan Mishra*
>
> *Network Solutions A**rchitect *
>
> *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>*
>
>
>
> *M 301 502-1347*
>
>

--=20

<http://www.verizon.com/>

*Gyan Mishra*

*Network Solutions A**rchitect *

*Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>*



*M 301 502-1347*

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Adrian<div><br></div><div>Attached is the review of 327=
2bis version 11=C2=A0 word document with comments along the side.</div><div=
><br></div><div>I added some verbiage in the abstract &amp; introduction se=
ction describing the three operator environments that exist 1. Public inter=
net, 2. Private domain with external customers, 3. Internal corporate intra=
net domain</div><div>Throughout the draft I changed &quot;internet traffic =
engineering&quot; to &quot;traffic engineering&quot; as there are three uni=
que use cases of traffic engineering which I described each in detail.=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Also once &quot;traffic engineering=C2=
=A0(TE) referred to traffic engineering as &quot;TE&quot;=C2=A0 is noted I =
believe my comment is in the intro section that we should not=C2=A0have to =
spell TE out explicitly each=C2=A0time throughout the draft except when a s=
entence starts with &quot;traffic engineering&quot;.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Some minor comments throughout the draft.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><=
div><br></div><div>Under the protection section I mentioned local protectio=
n which I think should be mentioned LFA, RLFA, TI-LFA.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Section 6.2 - I had some comments related=C2=A0to ECMP tha=
t if you would like I can do a write-up on ECMP.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Under 4.1.16 SR-MPLS is mentioned but not SRv6 so I thought it m=
ay be worthwhile to mention SRv6 as uses SR-TE steering even though not mpl=
s based but as another form of steering using IPv6 data plane.=C2=A0</div><=
div><br></div><div>Lastly,</div><div><br></div><div><div>I noticed Multicas=
t was not mentioned under IETF projects section or anywhere else in the dra=
ft. I can add some verbiage to a section and talk about P2MP TE &amp; repli=
cation sid.=C2=A0 I did not comment on this in the draft as no multicast se=
ction exists.</div><div></div></div><div><br></div><div>Kind Regards</div><=
div><br></div><div>Gyan</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 11:26 AM Gyan Mishra =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com">hayabusagsm@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto">Hi Adrian=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">I see you published a version 12.=C2=A0 I went through all =
of MEDs updates in version 11 and ensured that my updates are mutually excl=
usive no overlap of MEDs updates. =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><=
div dir=3D"auto">I built my updated on version 11.=C2=A0 I am almost done a=
nd will send out tomorrow night.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">Thanks=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">G=
yan</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmai=
l_attr">On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 11:00 AM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.bouc=
adair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Adrian, =
<br>
<br>
Thank you for the replies. Here is some few follow-up points:<br>
<br>
* s/within the control plane or by controllers/within the control or manage=
ment plane<br>
<br>
* &quot;I&#39;m not clear about the term &quot;resource-based access contro=
l&quot;. Do you mean &quot;policing&quot;? If so, yes. Policing is mentione=
d just two sentences later&quot;<br>
<br>
I actually meant resource-based admission control. This is now covered by t=
he new section you added. Thanks. <br>
<br>
* &quot; The word &quot;economically&quot; is, I think, giving you a differ=
ent meaning to what is intended. I think the word is not intended to just m=
ean &quot;financially economical&quot;, but also to mean &quot;not wasteful=
 or profligate.&quot; This is similar to &quot;efficient&quot;, but not the=
 same. In this context, &quot;economically&quot; would certainly apply to p=
ower use, money, and any other resource.<br>
I spent a little time trying to think of an equivalent word (because if it =
is causing you unrest, it will do the same for other readers), but I was un=
able to think of one.&quot;: <br>
<br>
The concern I had is that the observed behavior is conditioned by the metri=
cs/attributes/information that can be disseminated and acted upon. Optimizi=
ng the forwarding with a set of metrics as inputs does not guarantee that t=
he overall forwarding is economically-optimized. That&#39;s why I provided =
the example of power-consumption. Such optimization is not currently suppor=
ted at the level of a network (despite that some optimization can be made a=
t the node/card level).<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Med<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Message d&#39;origine-----<br>
&gt; De=C2=A0: Adrian Farrel [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk"=
 target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>]<br>
&gt; Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: samedi 15 mai 2021 19:40<br>
&gt; =C3=80=C2=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.=
boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt=
;<br>
&gt; Objet=C2=A0: RE: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Here&#39;s the file.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Many thanks for looking at this.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Adrian<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Adrian Farrel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=
=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: 15 May 2021 18:11<br>
&gt; To: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.bo=
ucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;;=
<br>
&gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org<=
/a>&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: &#39;TEAS WG Chairs&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas-chairs@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">teas-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Subject: RE: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Med,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks for all of your comments.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Nearly everything is accepted and included.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Not sure the best way to respond to your Word file, so I embedded my<b=
r>
&gt; responses and I&#39;ll send it to you under separate cover (no need to=
<br>
&gt; spam the mailing list).<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; There&#39;ll be a -12 along soon to capture your improvements.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Best,<br>
&gt; Adrian<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank=
">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@=
orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: 03 May 2021 15:49<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@ol=
ddog.co.uk</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@iet=
f.org</a><br>
&gt; Cc: &#39;TEAS WG Chairs&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas-chairs@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">teas-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Subject: RE: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Adrian, all,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; FWIW, you may find some comments at:<br>
&gt; * pdf:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blob/maste=
r/draft-" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/boucadair=
/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blob/master/draft-</a><br>
&gt; ietf-teas<br>
&gt; -rfc3272bis-11-rev%20Med.pdf<br>
&gt; * doc:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/master=
/draft-" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/boucadair/=
IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/master/draft-</a><br>
&gt; ietf-teas-<br>
&gt; rfc3272bis-11-rev%20Med.docx<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; Med<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; -----Message d&#39;origine-----<br>
&gt; &gt; De=C2=A0: Teas [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Adrian<br>
&gt; Farrel<br>
&gt; &gt; Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: mercredi 7 avril 2021 21:24 =C3=80=C2=A0: <a h=
ref=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.org</a> Cc=C2=A0: =
&#39;TEAS<br>
&gt; WG<br>
&gt; &gt; Chairs&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">teas-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt; Objet=C2=A0: Re: [Teas] I-D Action:<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; With this version I have filled in the remaining TBDs:<br>
&gt; &gt; - small section on intent-based network<br>
&gt; &gt; - small section on multi-layer TE (thanks, Lou, for the suggestio=
n)<br>
&gt; &gt; - change log from 3272<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; As far as I&#39;m concerned this document is complete modulo revi=
ew<br>
&gt; &gt; comments.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; It *really* needs review, but I can&#39;t force you!<br>
&gt; &gt; Maybe you can look at the sections of special interest to you?<br=
>
&gt; &gt; Maybe the original Design Team could take another look?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Otherwise: time for WG last call?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; &gt; Adrian<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: I-D-Announce &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank">i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of=
<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">int=
ernet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 07 April 2021 19:25<br>
&gt; &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">i-=
d-announce@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">teas@ietf.=
org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Draft=
s<br>
&gt; &gt; directories.<br>
&gt; &gt; This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture=
<br>
&gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt; Signaling WG of the IETF.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Overview and Principles of Internet<br>
&gt; Traffic<br>
&gt; &gt; Engineering<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Author=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 : Adrian Farrel<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-ie=
tf-teas-rfc3272bis-11.txt<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
: 91<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
: 2021-04-07<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Abstract:<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document describes the principles of traffic en=
gineering<br>
&gt; (TE)<br>
&gt; &gt; in<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the Internet.=C2=A0 The document is intended to prom=
ote better<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 understanding of the issues surrounding traffic engi=
neering in<br>
&gt; IP<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 networks and the networks that support IP networking=
, and to<br>
&gt; &gt; provide<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a common basis for the development of traffic engine=
ering<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 capabilities for the Internet.=C2=A0 The principles,=
 architectures,<br>
&gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 methodologies for performance evaluation and perform=
ance<br>
&gt; &gt; optimization<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of operational networks are also discussed.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This work was first published as RFC 3272 in May 200=
2.=C2=A0 This<br>
&gt; &gt; document<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 obsoletes RFC 3272 by making a complete update to br=
ing the text<br>
&gt; in<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 line with best current practices for Internet traffi=
c<br>
&gt; engineering<br>
&gt; &gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to include references to the latest relevant work in=
 the IETF.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-rfc32=
72bis/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d=
oc/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis/</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; There are also htmlized versions available at:<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis=
-11" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft=
-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-=
rfc3272bis-11" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; A diff from the previous version is available at:<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-teas-rf=
c3272bis-11" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcd=
iff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-teas-rfc3272bis-11</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of=
<br>
&gt; &gt; submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_b=
lank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" rel=3D"noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; I-D-Announce mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">I-D-An=
nounce@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-=
d-announce</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Internet-Draft directories: <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/shadow=
.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=
</a> or<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer" target=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; Teas mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.org<=
/a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt; _____________________________________________________________________<=
br>
&gt; _______<br>
&gt; _____________________________________________<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations<br>
&gt; confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses,<=
br>
&gt; exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message<br=
>
&gt; par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ain=
si<br>
&gt; que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles<=
br>
&gt; d&#39;alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete<br>
&gt; altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This message and its attachments may contain confidential or<br>
&gt; privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not<b=
r>
&gt; be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<br>
&gt; If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender<br>
&gt; and delete this message and its attachments.<br>
&gt; As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have<=
br>
&gt; been modified, changed or falsified.<br>
&gt; Thank you.<br>
<br>
___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________<br>
<br>
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<br>
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<br>
a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les message=
s electroniques etant susceptibles d&#39;alteration,<br>
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.<br>
<br>
This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;<br>
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<br>
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.<br>
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.<br>
Thank you.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Teas mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><p style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)"><a href=3D"http://=
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ght:13px"><font face=3D"georgia, serif" style=3D"color:black;font-size:1em"=
><i>Network Solutions A</i></font><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, =
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 face=3D"georgia, serif">Email <a href=3D"mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com"=
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000000" face=3D"georgia, serif"><i><br></i></font></p><p style=3D"font-size=
:1em;margin:0px;line-height:13px;color:black"><i><font face=3D"georgia, ser=
if">M 301 502-1347<br><br></font></i></p></div><div><br></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
><p style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)"><a href=3D"http://www.verizon.com/" style=
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&quot;,Arial,sans-serif;line-height:13px;color:black"><b>Gyan Mishra</b></p=
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From: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>,  Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] SFC and slicing
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Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 09:12:44 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing
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Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 14:05:27 +0000 (UTC)
From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>,  Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>,  Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing
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------=_Part_744361_1326438018.1622124327984
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
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 Daniele,
But location of=C2=A0 IETF slice access points is (likely to be) fixed, whi=
le location of SFs in required SFC may be not. My point is that you can not=
 reduce SF-aware TE problem into two separate TE and SF awareness problems =
that could be solved separately in separate time frames with first addressi=
ng TE (connectivity) and some time later adding somehow selection of SF loc=
ations. As Jeff pointed out, this would work short term for pragmatic reaso=
ns (to show that something got done). Long term, I believe, SF aware TE sho=
uld be addressed holistically.
Cheers,Igor
    On Thursday, May 27, 2021, 05:13:02 AM EDT, Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele=
.ceccarelli=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: =20
=20
 #yiv1283125335 #yiv1283125335 -- _filtered {} _filtered {} _filtered {} _f=
iltered {}#yiv1283125335 #yiv1283125335 p.yiv1283125335MsoNormal, #yiv12831=
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83125335 div.yiv1283125335msonormal3 {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font=
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35WordSection1 {}#yiv1283125335=20
That makes sense, an probably =E2=80=9Cawareness=E2=80=9D is the key word h=
ere.
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
In reply to Igor=E2=80=99s comment: I meant exactly the opposite, most of t=
he network/service functions will be virtualized with the possibility to de=
ploy them in a wide variety of sites (antenna site, hub site, central offic=
e, regional data centers etc.) and finding the best compromise between SF l=
ocation and TE characteristics is absolutely a valid use case.
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
The question I=E2=80=99m asking is whether it makes sense to add complexity=
 to the transport orchestrator asking it to retrieve that information from =
the network or it is an info that can be passed to it as input.=20
=20
An example of request to the transport orchestrator could be:
=20
=E2=80=9CI need to create a service with non fixed end points with these gi=
ven SLO, the sites where I can place my workload are A, B, C and D=E2=80=9D=
. When the optimal path is identified the chosen sites are returned to the =
cloud orchestrator to deploy the network functions. In this case the PCE ha=
s all the inputs to perform the dual optimization without duplicating into =
the transport orchestrator all the functionalities already present in other=
 components of the solution.
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
Both approaches would work from a technical perspective, it=E2=80=99s just =
a matter of understanding what makes more sense.
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
Cheers,
Daniele=C2=A0=20
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: den 26 maj 2021 20:51
To: teas@ietf.org; Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>; Daniele Ceccarelli =
<daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
Daniele is correct wrt today=E2=80=99 deployments.

I do think, similarly to Igor=E2=80=99 comments below,=C2=A0
looking at further disaggregation (X-haul) and moving towards the edge, whe=
re location and proximity of SFs=C2=A0=C2=A0becomes crucial to be able to p=
rovide optimized workload placement while still meeting the SLOs requested,=
 common view of transport and service topologies would be needed and eventu=
ally would be interdependent.=C2=A0

Pragmatically (and in line with Adrian proposal) - I think we should contin=
ue progressing connectivity centric work independently, while in parallel w=
orking on=C2=A0=C2=A0SF awareness=C2=A0=C2=A0and=C2=A0=C2=A0end2end workflo=
ws/data-models.=C2=A0
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
Cheers,=20
=20
Jeff
=20
On May 26, 2021, 10:43 AM -0700, Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin=3D40yahoo.com@dmar=
c.ietf.org>, wrote:


=20

Hi Daniele,
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
If I understood you correctly, you believe that SFs must be visible only to=
 the orchestrator (entity responsable for the e2e service) and should not b=
e considered in the IETF slices.
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
I have two problems with this:
=20
1) scalability: the number of slices that need to be stitched together woul=
d depend on number of SFs in the SFC;
=20
2) The very choice of SF location could be optimized depending on SLOs betw=
een adjacent SFs. You seem to believe that SF location is always fixed. I h=
eard people talking about duel optimization path computation algorithms sel=
ecting best possible compromise between SF location and TE characteristics =
of transport connecting them into chains.
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
Cheers,
=20
Igor
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 11:58:40 AM EDT, Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ce=
ccarelli=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
 =C2=A0
=20
Hi Adrian, Igor,
=20
=C2=A0
=20
I was trying to think where this augmented (meaning: connectivity + service=
 functions) model would be used.
=20
=C2=A0
=20
The architecture that seems to be the most widely adopted is the one shown =
in picture below. I would say that the NSC is a functionality of the transp=
ort orchestrator (pass me the term transport), but that component in many c=
ases, if not all, will only be capable to see connectivity and not service =
functions, which most likely will be managed by the cloud orchestrator=E2=
=80=A6hence I see it hardly applicable to interface B.
=20
At the same time I don=E2=80=99t think this model would be used over interf=
ace A, there I would see something more TMF like.
=20
=C2=A0
=20
What=E2=80=99s your opinion? Where do you think model would fit? A? B? Both=
?
=20
=C2=A0
=20
<image003.png>
=20
=C2=A0
=20
BR
Daniele=C2=A0
=20
=C2=A0
=20
From:Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org>On Behalf Of Igor Bryskin
Sent: den 24 maj 2021 16:45
To: teas@ietf.org; Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing
=20
=C2=A0
=20
Right. I suppose we need to hear from operators. Specifically, focusing on =
the delay SLO I'd like to ask:
=20
1. Is it possible that requested SFs in an SFC need to be time synchronized=
 in a client specific way?
=20
2. If e2e delays D, how the network is supposed to spend the delay budget b=
etween SFs in the requested SFC:
=20
a) arbitrarily;
=20
b) evenly.
=20
c) in proportion specified by the client
=20
=C2=A0
=20
=C2=A0
=20
Cheers,
=20
Igor
=20
=C2=A0
=20
=C2=A0
=20
On Monday, May 24, 2021, 08:49:31 AM EDT, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.u=
k> wrote:
=20
=C2=A0
=20
=C2=A0
=20
It=E2=80=99s an interesting question : =E2=80=9CWhat would happen if the di=
fferent parts of the SFC needed different SLOs?=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 But that is =
an =E2=80=9Cif=E2=80=9D. I wonder whether we can decide whether this is lik=
ely.
=20
=C2=A0
=20
Consider an end-to-end flow. We can easily decide on the end-to-end SLOs. F=
or example, there may be an end-to-end latency requirement. But it seems un=
likely that there is a special latency requirement between a pair of SFs. I=
s there an example, where the SF-to-SF SLO needs to be specific?
=20
=C2=A0
=20
Thanks,
=20
Adrian
=20
=C2=A0
=20
From:Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
Sent: 24 May 2021 13:22
To: teas@ietf.org; adrian@olddog.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing
=20
=C2=A0
=20
Hi Adrian,
=20
Thanks for giving to this some thoughts.
=20
I see a problem with the suggested plan if it turns out along the road that=
 in a requested by a client SFC SF1-> SF2->...->SFn different sets=C2=A0 of=
 SLOs=C2=A0 are required for each/some SFi->SFj links, as well as e2e acros=
s the slice. I suggested one way to address this by describing slices as SF=
 aware abstract topologies.
=20
Cheers,
=20
Igor
=20
GetOutlook for Android
=20
=C2=A0
=20
From:Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog=
.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2021 1:40:11 PM
To: teas@ietf.org <teas@ietf.org>
Cc: i_bryskin@yahoo.com <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Teas] SFC and slicing=20
=20
=C2=A0
=20
Hi,

Igor raised the question of "reconciling" the IETF work on service function
chaining and network slicing.

Some of the early discussions on network slicing considered not just
connectivity resources (buffers and bandwidth), but also other resources
that might be found in the network (like storage and compute). I was one of
the people suggesting this, and I know there were others. This would
certainly go some way to bridge the gap to SFC.

However, my understanding is that the design team (and others in the WG)
wanted to push ahead with the definitions for the connectivity resources
first, and consider adding other resources later.

I think this is wise. We have taken quite a long time to get to this point
(especially if you consider the early network slicing BoF), and it is
certainly the case that the first deployment drive is for connectivity
resources. Perhaps we should sort that out first.

That said, I don't think that adding other service descriptions would be
hard. It feels like the definition of further SLOs and SLEs.

If we want to continue this discussion, we should probably involve the SFC
working group to see how they feel about it. But anyone who is interested i=
n
this could certainly begin work on specifying the SLOs and SLEs that they
will want to see added to the NBI.

Best,
Adrian

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
=20
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
=20
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
=20
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
=20
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
 =20
------=_Part_744361_1326438018.1622124327984
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydp564229b9yahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px=
;"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Daniele,</div><div dir=3D"lt=
r" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">B=
ut location of&nbsp; IETF slice access points is (likely to be) fixed, whil=
e location of SFs in required SFC may be not. My point is that you can not =
reduce SF-aware TE problem into two separate TE and SF awareness problems t=
hat could be solved separately in separate time frames with first addressin=
g TE (connectivity) and some time later adding somehow selection of SF loca=
tions. As Jeff pointed out, this would work short term for pragmatic reason=
s (to show that something got done). Long term, I believe, SF aware TE shou=
ld be addressed holistically.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><=
br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Cheers,</div><div dir=3D"lt=
r" data-setdir=3D"false"><msreadoutspan class=3D"msreadout-line-highlight">=
<msreadoutspan class=3D"msreadout-word-highlight">Igor</msreadoutspan></msr=
eadoutspan></div><div><br></div>
       =20
        </div><div id=3D"yahoo_quoted_2815843789" class=3D"yahoo_quoted">
            <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
               =20
                <div>
                    On Thursday, May 27, 2021, 05:13:02 AM EDT, Daniele Cec=
carelli &lt;daniele.ceccarelli=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt; wrote:
                </div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><div id=3D"yiv1283125335"><style>#yiv1283125335 #yiv12=
83125335 --
=20
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<div class=3D"yiv1283125335WordSection1">
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">That makes sense, an probably =E2=80=9Cawa=
reness=E2=80=9D is the key word here.</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">In reply to Igor=E2=80=99s comment: I mean=
t exactly the opposite, most of the network/service functions will be virtu=
alized with the possibility
 to deploy them in a wide variety of sites (antenna site, hub site, central=
 office, regional data centers etc.) and finding the best compromise betwee=
n SF location and TE characteristics is absolutely a valid use case.
</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">The question I=E2=80=99m asking is whether=
 it makes sense to add complexity to the transport orchestrator asking it t=
o retrieve that information
 from the network or it is an info that can be passed to it as input. </spa=
n></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">An example of request to the transport orc=
hestrator could be:</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">=E2=80=9CI need to create a service with n=
on fixed end points with these given SLO, the sites where I can place my wo=
rkload are A, B, C and
 D=E2=80=9D. When the optimal path is identified the chosen sites are retur=
ned to the cloud orchestrator to deploy the network functions. In this case=
 the PCE has all the inputs to perform the dual optimization without duplic=
ating into the transport orchestrator all
 the functionalities already present in other components of the solution.</=
span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">Both approaches would work from a technica=
l perspective, it=E2=80=99s just a matter of understanding what makes more =
sense.
</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">Cheers,<br clear=3D"none">
Daniele&nbsp; </span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt;">
<div class=3D"yiv1283125335yqt7809684947" id=3D"yiv1283125335yqt43411"><div=
>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm;">
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> Jeff Tantsura &lt;jefftan=
t.ietf@gmail.com&gt;
<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Sent:</b> den 26 maj 2021 20:51<br clear=3D"none">
<b>To:</b> teas@ietf.org; Adrian Farrel &lt;adrian@olddog.co.uk&gt;; Daniel=
e Ceccarelli &lt;daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com&gt;; Igor Bryskin &lt;i_br=
yskin@yahoo.com&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing</span></p>=20
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"> &nbsp;</span></p>=
=20
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal">Daniele is correct wrt today=E2=80=99 d=
eployments.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
I do think, similarly to Igor=E2=80=99 comments below,&nbsp;<br clear=3D"no=
ne">
looking at further disaggregation (X-haul) and moving towards the edge, whe=
re location and proximity of SFs&nbsp;&nbsp;becomes crucial to be able to p=
rovide optimized workload placement while still meeting the SLOs requested,=
 common view of transport and service topologies
 would be needed and eventually would be interdependent.&nbsp;<br clear=3D"=
none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Pragmatically (and in line with Adrian proposal) - I think we should contin=
ue progressing connectivity centric work independently, while in parallel w=
orking on&nbsp;&nbsp;SF awareness&nbsp;&nbsp;and&nbsp;&nbsp;end2end workflo=
ws/data-models.&nbsp;</p>=20
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</p>=20
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal">Cheers, </p>=20
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal">Jeff</p>=20
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal">On May 26, 2021, 10:43 AM -0700, Igor B=
ryskin &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:i_bryskin=3D40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"mailto:i_bryskin=3D40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org">i_bryskin=3D40yahoo.com@=
dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;, wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
</p>=20
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding=
:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:3.75pt;margin-right:3.75pt=
;margin-bottom:3.75pt;">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;">Hi Daniele,</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;">If I understood you correctly, you believe that SFs must =
be visible only to the orchestrator (entity responsable for the e2e service=
) and should not be considered in the
 IETF slices.</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;">I have two problems with this:</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;">1) scalability: the number of slices that need to be stit=
ched together would depend on number of SFs in the SFC;</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;">2) The very choice of SF location could be optimized depe=
nding on SLOs between adjacent SFs. You seem to believe that SF location is=
 always fixed. I heard people talking
 about duel optimization path computation algorithms selecting best possibl=
e compromise between SF location and TE characteristics of transport connec=
ting them into chains.</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;">Cheers,</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;">Igor</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"yiv1283125335yahoo_quoted_2099239623">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">On Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 11:58:40 AM EDT=
, Daniele Ceccarelli &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"r=
ect" ymailto=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:daniele.ceccarelli=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.=
ietf.org">daniele.ceccarelli=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;
 wrote:</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> &nbsp;</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<div id=3D"yiv1283125335">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">Hi Adrian, Igor,</span><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">I was trying to think where =
this augmented (meaning: connectivity + service functions) model would be u=
sed.</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26=
282A;"></span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">The architecture that seems =
to be the most widely adopted is the one shown in picture below. I would sa=
y that the NSC is a functionality
 of the transport orchestrator (pass me the term transport), but that compo=
nent in many cases, if not all, will only be capable to see connectivity an=
d not service functions, which most likely will be managed by the cloud orc=
hestrator=E2=80=A6hence I see it hardly
 applicable to interface B.</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">At the same time I don=E2=80=
=99t think this model would be used over interface A, there I would see som=
ething more TMF like.</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:san=
s-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">What=E2=80=99s your opinion?=
 Where do you think model would fit? A? B? Both?</span><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">&lt;image003.png&gt;</span><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></spa=
n></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">BR<br clear=3D"none">
Daniele&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;=
color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt;">
<div id=3D"yiv1283125335yqt86168">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm;">
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">From:</span></b><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;=
">
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-seri=
f;color:#26282A;">Teas &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D=
"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"m=
ailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of</b> Igor Bryskin<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Sent:</b> den 24 maj 2021 16:45<br clear=3D"none">
<b>To:</b> <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">t=
eas@ietf.org</a>; Adrian Farrel &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer"=
 shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank" hr=
ef=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"n=
one">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing</span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">&nbsp;</span></p>=20
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#=
26282A;">Right. I suppose we need to hear from operators. Specifically, foc=
using on the delay SLO I'd like to ask:</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#=
26282A;">1. Is it possible that requested SFs in an SFC need to be time syn=
chronized in a client specific way?</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#=
26282A;">2. If e2e delays D, how the network is supposed to spend the delay=
 budget between SFs in the requested SFC:</span><span style=3D"font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#=
26282A;">a) arbitrarily;</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#=
26282A;">b) evenly.</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-=
serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#=
26282A;">c) in proportion specified by the client</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#=
26282A;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-seri=
f;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#=
26282A;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-seri=
f;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#=
26282A;">Cheers,</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-ser=
if;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#=
26282A;">Igor</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;=
color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#=
26282A;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-seri=
f;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#=
26282A;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-seri=
f;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"yiv1283125335yahoo_quoted_2405513004">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#=
26282A;">On Monday, May 24, 2021, 08:49:31 AM EDT, Adrian Farrel &lt;<a rel=
=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:adrian@o=
lddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@o=
lddog.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#=
26282A;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-seri=
f;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#=
26282A;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-seri=
f;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<div id=3D"yiv1283125335">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:New serif;color:#26282A;">It=E2=80=99s an interesting question : =E2=
=80=9CWhat would happen if the different parts of the SFC needed different =
SLOs?=E2=80=9D&nbsp; But that is an =E2=80=9Cif=E2=80=9D. I wonder whether
 we can decide whether this is likely.</span><span style=3D"color:#26282A;"=
></span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:New serif;color:#26282A;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#26282A;"=
></span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:New serif;color:#26282A;">Consider an end-to-end flow. We can easily =
decide on the end-to-end SLOs. For example, there may be an end-to-end late=
ncy requirement. But it
 seems unlikely that there is a special latency requirement between a pair =
of SFs. Is there an example, where the SF-to-SF SLO needs to be specific?</=
span><span style=3D"color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:New serif;color:#26282A;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#26282A;"=
></span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:New serif;color:#26282A;">Thanks,</span><span style=3D"color:#26282A;=
"></span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:New serif;color:#26282A;">Adrian</span><span style=3D"color:#26282A;"=
></span></p>=20
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:New serif;color:#26282A;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#26282A;"=
></span></p>=20
<div id=3D"yiv1283125335yqt44278">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm;">
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal3"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:New serif;color:#26282A;">From:</span></b><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#26282A;">
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:New serif=
;color:#26282A;">Igor Bryskin &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" s=
hape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com">i_bryskin@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"non=
e">
<b>Sent:</b> 24 May 2021 13:22<br clear=3D"none">
<b>To:</b> <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">t=
eas@ietf.org</a>; <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ym=
ailto=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:adria=
n@olddog.co.uk">
adrian@olddog.co.uk</a><br clear=3D"none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing</span><span style=3D"color:#2628=
2A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:New serif;color:#26282A;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#26282A;"=
></span></p>=20
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:sans-serif;color:black;">Hi Adrian,</span><span style=3D"color:#26282=
A;">
</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal3" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Thanks for g=
iving to this some thoughts.</span><span style=3D"color:#26282A;">
</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal3" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">I see a prob=
lem with the suggested plan if it turns out along the road that in a reques=
ted by a client SFC SF1-&gt; SF2-&gt;...-&gt;SFn
 different sets&nbsp; of SLOs&nbsp; are required for each/some SFi-&gt;SFj =
links, as well as e2e across the slice. I suggested one way to address this=
 by describing slices as SF aware abstract topologies.</span><span style=3D=
"color:#26282A;">
</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:sans-serif;color:black;">Cheers,</span><span style=3D"color:#26282A;"=
>
</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal3" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Igor</span><=
span style=3D"color:#26282A;">
</span></p>=20
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:sans-serif;color:black;">Get
<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" hr=
ef=3D"https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D513a5706-0ea16fd4-513a179d-86=
6132fe445e-e8d21cc567bd8f43&amp;q=3D1&amp;e=3Dda75fd5d-9f07-47b6-96bf-3011c=
6879f6d&amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fghei36">
Outlook for Android</a></span><span style=3D"color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:sans-serif;color:black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#26282A;">=
</span></p>=20
</div>
<div align=3D"center" class=3D"yiv1283125335MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:=
center;"><span style=3D"font-family:serif;color:#26282A;">
</span><hr align=3D"center" size=3D"2" width=3D"98%">
</div>
<div id=3D"yiv1283125335divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal3"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:New serif;color:black;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"color:#2628=
2A;">
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:New serif;color:black;">=
Teas &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"=
mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:teas-bounces=
@ietf.org">teas-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Adrian Farrel &lt;<a =
rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:adria=
n@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adria=
n@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 23, 2021 1:40:11 PM<br clear=3D"none">
<b>To:</b> <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">t=
eas@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect"=
 ymailto=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:teas@iet=
f.org">teas@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Cc:</b> <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:i_bryskin@=
yahoo.com">i_bryskin@yahoo.com</a> &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferr=
er" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 href=3D"mailto:i_bryskin@yahoo.com">i_bryskin@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br clear=
=3D"none">
<b>Subject:</b> [Teas] SFC and slicing</span><span style=3D"color:#26282A;"=
> </span></p>=20
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:New serif;color:#26282A;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#26282A;"=
></span></p>=20
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:New serif;color:#26282A;">Hi,<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Igor raised the question of "reconciling" the IETF work on service function=
<br clear=3D"none">
chaining and network slicing.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Some of the early discussions on network slicing considered not just<br cle=
ar=3D"none">
connectivity resources (buffers and bandwidth), but also other resources<br=
 clear=3D"none">
that might be found in the network (like storage and compute). I was one of=
<br clear=3D"none">
the people suggesting this, and I know there were others. This would<br cle=
ar=3D"none">
certainly go some way to bridge the gap to SFC.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
However, my understanding is that the design team (and others in the WG)<br=
 clear=3D"none">
wanted to push ahead with the definitions for the connectivity resources<br=
 clear=3D"none">
first, and consider adding other resources later.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
I think this is wise. We have taken quite a long time to get to this point<=
br clear=3D"none">
(especially if you consider the early network slicing BoF), and it is<br cl=
ear=3D"none">
certainly the case that the first deployment drive is for connectivity<br c=
lear=3D"none">
resources. Perhaps we should sort that out first.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
That said, I don't think that adding other service descriptions would be<br=
 clear=3D"none">
hard. It feels like the definition of further SLOs and SLEs.<br clear=3D"no=
ne">
<br clear=3D"none">
If we want to continue this discussion, we should probably involve the SFC<=
br clear=3D"none">
working group to see how they feel about it. But anyone who is interested i=
n<br clear=3D"none">
this could certainly begin work on specifying the SLOs and SLEs that they<b=
r clear=3D"none">
will want to see added to the NBI.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Best,<br clear=3D"none">
Adrian<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
_______________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">
Teas mailing list<br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Te=
as@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org">Teas@ietf.org<=
/a><br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" hr=
ef=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas">https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/teas</a></span><span style=3D"color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"yiv1283125335yqt10795">
<p class=3D"yiv1283125335msonormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#=
26282A;">_______________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">
Teas mailing list<br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Te=
as@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org">Teas@ietf.org<=
/a><br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" hr=
ef=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas">https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/teas</a></span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:san=
s-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>=20
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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To: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Thread-Topic: [Teas] SFC and slicing
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To: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] SFC and slicing
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