Subject: [87attendees] Jabber scribing

From: Melinda Shore <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 23:52:32 -0800

As a remote participant this time I am very, very grateful
to those people who've stepped up and volunteered to be
Jabber scribes, and as a working group chair I know how
difficult it is to find people willing to do it.  And as
someone who's been a Jabber scribe a time or three I know
how much work it can be to get stuff typed in to allow
people not in the room to follow along in more-or-less
real time.

That said, in this, the first session of the first day of
meetings, I'm finding that the Jabber scribing is not all
that consistent.  For people not in the room, seeing "Slide
1," "Slide 2," and so on is not all that different from
just reading the slide set.  When people make comments at
the mike it's *really* helpful to capture the person's
name and the general gist of what they said.

Thanks again to the heroes who step up and volunteer.  You
make remote participation possible.

Melinda

-- 
Melinda Shore
No Mountain Software
[email-masked]

"Software longa, hardware brevis."

---

From: "John G. Scudder" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:01:06 +0200

On Jul 29, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Melinda Shore <[email-masked]> wrote:

> For people not in the room, seeing "Slide
> just reading the slide set.

I'm surprised to hear this -- when I'm attending a meeting remotely I find it invaluable to know what slide we're on, especially if a speaker becomes animated, flips back and forth or skips one or more slides. Lacking number references, it can be difficult and distracting to regain sync when I lose track.

Is it just me? Is there a general consensus that calling out slides in the jabber room isn't useful?

--John

---

From: Ben Campbell <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:04:55 +0200

> Is it just me? Is there a general consensus that calling out slides in the jabber room isn't useful?

I think calling out slides is useful, for people who are also listening to the audio stream, for the reasons you mention.

 I think it would be extremely difficult to make the XMPP channel work well for people who are not also listening to the stream, unless we were to bring in actual transcriptionists.

Ben.

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:05:16 +0200

> Is it just me? Is there a general consensus that calling out slides in the jabber room isn't useful?

I took the concern to be scribing that was overly terse.  Not that 
citing the slide wasn't useful but that /only/ citing the slide isn't 
informative enough.

But this exchange starts to look like there's a nascent Guide for Jabber 
Scribing being implied here...

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net

---

From: "Carlos M. Martinez" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:05:58 +0200

IMO calling the slide numbers is extremely useful when following a
meeting over jabber.

I've been jabber scribe a couple of times, and capturing names is
usually the most frustrating part of this. For some reason, people tend
to either not say their name, or say it very quickly and/or in a very
low voice. Of course there are exceptions, but this is the norm.

cheers!

~Carlos

On 7/29/13 10:01 AM, John G. Scudder wrote:
> _______________________________________________
> 87attendees mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/87attendees

---

From: Melinda Shore <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 00:06:37 -0800

> in the jabber room isn't useful?

I was thinking of the case where someone is not listening to
the audio stream, either because they're in another room or
because they're listening to a different stream.  Calling
out the slides is useful, but calling out nothing but the
slides is not so useful for people who don't have audio.
So, this is not a request not to type slide numbers, but a
request to try to capture what's going on in the room.  (Yes,
that can often be difficult, but it's such a huge help to
those of us not on audio.)

Melinda

---

From: Scott Brim <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:07:41 +0200

> make remote participation possible.

+1.  I really appreciate chatty jabberers.

---

From: Scott Brim <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:10:02 +0200

> I'm surprised to hear this -- when I'm attending a meeting remotely I find it invaluable to know what slide we're on, especially if a speaker becomes animated, flips back and forth or skips one or…

Yes but "Slide 1" "Slide 2" is only good if the remote person is also
listening to audio - and even then it's marginally useful.  A jabberer
who records all the arguments is invaluable.

When I scribe I tend to take copious notes off in an editor, and when
there's a lull I clean them up and paste them into jabber.  I'm only a
minute or so behind and it gives people all the dirt.

---

From: Scott Brim <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:15:23 +0200

> minute or so behind and it gives people all the dirt.

If I were to write a scribing guide I would say: Why are you in the
room?  Why did you come to this meeting.  Write down everything you find
valuable and what you think someone else might find valuable.  If you
don't know a speaker's name, just say "someone" and another person in
the jabber room with you will probably fill it in -- just write it down.
 If you wish, write it all down and clean it up offline, posting to
jabber every minute or so.  Note to chairs: if someone scribes that way
you also have another notetaker.

---

From: "Joel M. Halpern" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 04:18:20 -0400

My assumption when I as chair ask someone to jabber scribe is that they 
are to catch the high points, particularly those that might be missed by 
someone following the audio.
I am not normally asking for continuous transcription.
Note that this does assume that as chair I have done my job and made 
sure the slides are available from the repository.

Yours,
Joel

---

From: Peter Saint-Andre <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:21:08 +0200

> +1.  I really appreciate chatty jabberers.

Instructions to the scribes have been inconsistent.

I see two roles here:

1. scribes: those who take notes

2. relays: those who take questions from the chatroom to the mic

It's hard to do both at the same time.

In my experience it's really hard to do (1) well.

In my experience (2) is relatively easy (other than not catching
people's names -- it helps if you park yourself close to the mic).

It's not clear to me that scribing needs to happen in the chatroom,
although that too can be helpful (instead of using etherpad or notes on
your own machine).

I agree that some guidelines would be very helpful. I sense a wiki page
and perhaps an Internet-Draft emerging here soon...

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/

---

From: Scott Brim <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:23:05 +0200

> someone following the audio.

This leaves out people in other rooms who cannot listen to the audio but
want to keep track of your meeting and possibly contribute.

---

From: Dan York <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 08:24:28 +0000

Melinda,

On 7/29/13 10:06 AM, "Melinda Shore" <[email-masked]> wrote:

>request to try to capture what's going on in the room.

When I jabber scribe[1], I will typically ask if there is anyone in the
chat room who needs a higher level of commentary.  If everyone in the chat
room is either listening to the audio or on MeetEcho, I will typically
only provide slide changes, links to drafts and slides, and names of
people who are speaking at the mic. If there are people who do not have
access to audio or MeetEcho, I will switch to a higher level of commentary
and try to summarize the major points raised by the speakers and the
people giving comments.

> (Yes,

It *is* definitely a huge help to those who are remote.

Dan

[1] which I try to do as often as I can because I've been where you are
(Melinda) multiple times trying to participate remotely and I have come to
value jabber scribing.

--
Dan York
Senior Content Strategist, Internet Society
[email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>   +1-802-735-1624
Jabber: [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>
Skype: danyork   http://twitter.com/danyork

http://www.internetsociety.org/deploy360/

---

From: Dan York <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 08:32:02 +0000

On this topic... 

> and perhaps an Internet-Draft emerging here soon...

... I've thought for several IETF meetings that such a I-D would be useful
and I actually started outlining one after the last meeting in Orlando.
If there are other people (Jabber scribes?) who would be interested on
collaborating on such a document, please drop me a line (directly is fine
versus to the list).  Perhaps we can put something together before the
next meeting.

Dan

---

From: Melinda Shore <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 00:34:20 -0800

> versus to the list).  Perhaps we can put something together before the

We've got a working group chairs wiki page on supporting
remote participation and I think this would fit well with
that.  I suspect we need to do a better job reminding chairs
to take a look at that thing.

Melinda

---

From: Ted Lemon <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 08:35:13 +0000

> +1.  I really appreciate chatty jabberers.

This is helpful feedback—when I scribe I'm always unsure as to how much typing I should be doing.

---

From: Scott Brim <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:37:02 +0200

> This is helpful feedback—when I scribe I'm always unsure as to how much typing I should be doing.

I've never heard of anyone complaining about TMI in jabber.

---

From: Peter Saint-Andre <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:39:13 +0200

> I've never heard of anyone complaining about TMI in jabber.

But it's hard to get people to volunteer for the role of providing TMI.

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/

---

From: Peter Saint-Andre <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:39:31 +0200

> versus to the list).  Perhaps we can put something together before the

Dan, I would work with you on that.

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/

---

From: Ben Campbell <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:40:33 +0200

> I've never heard of anyone complaining about TMI in jabber.

OTOH, as a chair I've struggled to get jabber scribe volunteers on many occasions. I take that as an implied complaint. More pressure on the scribes is going to make that even harder.

There have been some mentions of crowd-sourcing the scribe effort. I agree there could be merit there.

---

From: "Joel M. Halpern" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 04:41:25 -0400

There seems to be a bit of a mixing of concerns.
It seems to me that for supporting remote participation, expecting that 
the remote person has fetched the slides and is making an effort to 
follow the audio stream (which may for many reasons not work perfectly) 
seems a reasonable expectation.

The concern Scott at least expressed was to be able to follow the 
session and comment based on the jabber without the audio, due to being 
in another session within the IETF>  That is a different goal.

Yours,
Joel

PS: To be clear, I have no objection if the jabber scribe is willing and 
able to take more detailed notes into the jabber.  I am concerned with 
requiring that.

---

From: Scott Brim <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:41:51 +0200

> There have been some mentions of crowd-sourcing the scribe effort. I agree there could be merit there.

Yes, as in etherpad.  Also, you can ask your notetaker[s] to paste notes
into jabber during lulls.

---

From: Ben Campbell <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:42:49 +0200

(oops, sent before I was finished)

> There have been some mentions of crowd-sourcing the scribe effort. I agree there could be merit there.

I meant to continue to say that I've seen crowd-sourcing work well in the XMPP meetings. But that group tends to have some special skills and motivation in the area. (Sometimes the room feels like the side-channel to the real meeting happening in the Jabber room :-)  )

---

From: Melinda Shore <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 00:43:33 -0800

> I've never heard of anyone complaining about TMI in jabber.

When I'm Jabber scribing I turn off my brain and just type.  It
means that I can't really participate in discussions in that
working group, but I expect my being in type-more-talk-less
mode is a win/win for everybody.  I should add that in some cases
I've used the jabber transcript from a session I've chaired as a
basis for minutes.  Anyway, this may be too much but having
participated remotely as much as I have I try to capture what
I'd find useful as an un-audioed remote participant:
http://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/karp/2011-11-16.html

Melinda

---

From: Scott Brim <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:51:26 +0200

On 07/29/13 10:43, Melinda Shore allegedly wrote:
> working group, 

Another possible tweak is that scribes/notetakers get to go to the front
of the line at the mic.  That allows them to participate when they can
without losing a lot of scribing time.

> but I expect my being in type-more-talk-less

Great.

swb

---

From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 08:59:11 +0000

Not just hard - virtually impossible.

My first priority as wg chair is finding someone who can relay information to and from the remote participant that is not catered for on the audio stream.

If any remote participant wants more than that, then they would need to advertise it in advance, and probably play some role in helping to find a volunteer willing to devote the additional cycles (or possibly work in parallel to the normal jabber scribe).

Just for the record, when I am taking notes for the minutes, I'm usually about 3 speakers behind on those notes, so even that typing would be useless for real time jabber relay.

Keith

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
> On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
> Sent: 29 July 2013 09:39
> To: Scott Brim
> Cc: <[email-masked]>; Melinda Shore; Ted Lemon
> Subject: Re: [87attendees] Jabber scribing
> 
> >> This is helpful feedback-when I scribe I'm always unsure as to how much
> typing I should be doing.
> >

---

From: "Olle E. Johansson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 11:03:14 +0200

> low voice. Of course there are exceptions, but this is the norm.

As a Jabber scribe I would like to force presenters to add slide numbers to
their presentations. Not everyone has it and it makes it hard to scribe.

If MeetEcho is available in the room, then slide numbers will be automatically
added to the jabber room, which is nice.

/O

---

From: Spencer Dawkins <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 04:05:22 -0500

>> I've never heard of anyone complaining about TMI in jabber. 

I have.

When our WiFi started being consistently reliable enough for me to be 
the note-taker but typing in the jabber room, I started doing that. My 
hope was for crowdsourcing corrections ("what I said wasn't what Spencer 
typed. what I really said was ...").

What I heard back was that I was typing enough that other people found 
jabber unusable for anything except watching what I typed. When I was 
one of the IESG scribes, the IESG ended up with a separate jabber room 
for scribing for a while (which kind of killed the point of me typing a 
lot in jabber, because the ADs were in the room where they could talk to 
each other).

The extreme case was a couple of RAI working groups that DID have a 
transcriptionist typing in the jabber room - that got moved to a 
separate jabber room, too.

I don't know what the current community feeling is, because I stopped 
being a note-taker when I was selected for the IAB (I had to choose 
between participating in the discussion and typing at line rate :-) ...

Spencer

---

From: Spencer Dawkins <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 04:08:43 -0500

> without losing a lot of scribing time.

My experience was that most chairs were FINE with that when I asked 
("anything to get a scribe to say 'yes', right?") ...

Spencer

---

From: Brian Dickson <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 11:20:47 +0200

My observation (of this discussion) is that there are two purposes for scribing, and I wonder if the jabber room naming might be arranged to better reflect those?

E.g. xxxx-cc (to use the mnemonic for "closed captioning", for those with no audio stream), and xxxx-tty or -tdy (for teletype or whatever TDY means) for actual jabbering and feedback from jabber participants to the room.

thoughts?

Brian

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 29, 2013, at 11:05 AM, Spencer Dawkins <[email-masked]> wrote:

> When our WiFi started being consistently reliable enough for me to be the note-taker but typing in the jabber room, I started doing that. My hope was for crowdsourcing corrections ("what I said wasn't what Spencer typed. what I really said was ...").
> 
> What I heard back was that I was typing enough that other people found jabber unusable for anything except watching what I typed. When I was one of the IESG scribes, the IESG ended up with a separate jabber room for scribing for a while (which kind of killed the point of me typing a lot in jabber, because the ADs were in the room where they could talk to each other).
> 
> The extreme case was a couple of RAI working groups that DID have a transcriptionist typing in the jabber room - that got moved to a separate jabber room, too.
> 
> I don't know what the current community feeling is, because I stopped being a note-taker when I was selected for the IAB (I had to choose between participating in the discussion and typing at line rate :-) ...
> 
> Spencer
>

---

From: "George, Wes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 05:40:36 -0400

> On Behalf Of Melinda Shore
>

[WEG] You also need something much, much shorter thank a draft or a wiki entry, because really the WG chairs are the secondary audience. You need something that fits nicely on a single slide (and normal font size) that you can display while asking for scribes and note takers (or send out in the email that says "jabber scribes needed") that explains what they are expected to do. I'd be willing to help with this, in whatever form it takes.

Wes

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---

From: "George, Wes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 05:50:51 -0400

> On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern
> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 4:41 AM
> To: Melinda Shore
> Cc: [email-masked]; [email-masked]; Peter Saint-Andre
[WEG] +1K. That said, I've been in sessions where audio wasn't working or slides weren't posted, or both, and I was the jabber scribe, and suddenly it became my role to compensate for the other missing elements. I tried my best, but to paraphrase Bones - Dammit Jim, I'm an engineer, not a stenographer. Jabber simply isn't a substitute for the other things with us volunteer amateurs at the keys.
I do try to summarize mic comments, but sometimes trying to parse the syntactic filler (uh, um, well) and find the conversation thread is hard, especially if it's a rapid back and forth, non-native/quiet speaker, etc - i.e. the same things that make it hard to follow on the audio stream, unfortunately. Even in "turn your brain off and type" mode, I have on more than one occasion declared defeat after losing the thread.

> in another session within the IETF>  That is a different goal.
[WEG] trying to follow other sessions is better served by being clear to the scribe what exactly you're trying to follow without audio - usually it's one presentation you care about that couldn't be moved enough within the session for you to physically attend. So telling them, "please note in Jabber when this preso starts," or "please make sure to scribe comments during this preso" will help to ensure success. Expecting the scribe to do that by default and for an entire session is asking too much IMO. We all have to make choices about what sessions to attend and what to miss, and by doing that, you're basically asking the jabber scribe to attend, but not participate in the session, because they can't think about anything but typing as fast as their fingers will go.

Wes

---

From: "George, Wes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 05:51:00 -0400

> +1.  I really appreciate chatty jabberers.

[WEG] "chatty jabberers" is the name of my Talk Talk cover band :-)

Wes

---

From: Arturo Servin <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 14:02:36 +0200

Is any "jabber-scribing" guide or good-practices?

/as

---

From: Dan York <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 12:18:23 +0000

Arturuo

>	Is any "jabber-scribing" guide or good-practices?

Not really, but 3 people have volunteered to collaborate with me on
writing one. So stay tuned...  ;-)

Dan

---

From: "John R Levine" <[email-masked]>
Date: 29 Jul 2013 14:28:43 +0200

There's one at Keithstr. 39, which I noticed because it's across the 
street from my hotel.

To get there from the IC, cross the street at the light in front of the 
hotel, go straight on the alley which is Wichmannstr., turn left twice, 
once to stay on Wichmannstr. and once onto Keithstr.  If you're not there 
in 5 mins, you've missed it.

Dunno if this is the one where the IC offered to drop off laundry.

Regards,
John Levine, [email-masked], Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
"I dropped the toothpaste", said Tom, crestfallenly.

---

From: Arturo Servin <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 14:32:37 +0200

Good! It would be very valuable.

	I saw the email after in the thread.

Thanks
as

---

From: Janet P Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 09:08:39 -0400

As a remote participant, these are the things I look for in jabber.

If audio/speaker are clear, and I have the slides:

What slide  are we on
Ability to ask my own question/comment
Ability to ask for clarification

But unfortunately the audio is often poor:

NAME of the speaker at the mic and summary of what they said
Anything major the presenter says that is not covered by the slides

Or for some reason I can't get/open the slides (had one today that my 
computer was "unable to open".  In that case I can ask in the Jabber room 
for more detail:

Anything significant in the slides that I can't pick up from the audio

If the discussion or presentation is confusing, I do not expect the jabber 
scribe to clarify it- That I look for in the minutes.

Janet

From:   "Joel M. Halpern" <[email-masked]>
To:     Melinda Shore <[email-masked]>
Cc:     "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>, "[email-masked]" 
<[email-masked]>, Peter Saint-Andre <[email-masked]>
Date:   07/29/2013 04:41 AM
Subject:        Re: [87attendees] Jabber scribing
Sent by:        [email-masked]

Yours,
Joel

---

From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 09:23:46 -0400

> * NAME of the speaker at the mic and summary of what they said
    > * Anything major the presenter says that is not covered by the slides

In particular, I notice that with non-native English speakers, or at least,
people with non-English names, that the names spoken at the mic tend to be
mumbled far more.
I recognize that 60% of this is that, as an english speaker, I can decode
mumbled english names much easier than non-Egnlish names.

So I suggest that you are *NOT* waisting your time to say your name really
slowly.   Many people feel that this is wasted time, but I think it takes
only 3s vs 2s to do it slowly, and all the various scribes and the like
probably would love the time to catch up on previous comments.

It's also WAY WAY easier to open PDF format slides than PPT(x).
It's just a new tab in my browser rather than a new tab in the task bar.
I also appreciate combined slides

(I am remote)

--
Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>, Sandelman Software Works

---

From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 13:39:46 +0000

It also helps if the first syllable you say is not the first syllable of the name. Say "I am ..." or "My name is ..." or whatever. It is just enough time to tune people in. It may also be enough for you yourself to judge whether you are speaking at the right level before you get to the critical element which is your name.

Having to turn round from note taking to work out who is speaking means the first part of your spoken contribution frequently gets lost from the notes.

Keith

> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson
> Sent: 29 July 2013 14:24
> To: [email-masked]

---

From: Emil Ivov <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:41:04 +0200

> people with non-English names, that the names spoken at the mic tend to be

That's funny. I was thinking exactly the same thing about people with 
non-Bulgarian names ;)

> slowly.

I don't believe anyone is worried about time here. I suspect this often 
has a lot more to do with people being shy or just trying not to impose 
too much on everyone.

> Many people feel that this is wasted time, but I think it takes

Maybe we could try a mandatory name spelling the first time anyone goes 
to the mike for a particular WG.

Emil

-- 
https://jitsi.org

---

From: Ronald van der Pol <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:54:59 +0200

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 15:41:04 +0200, Emil Ivov wrote:

> Maybe we could try a mandatory name spelling the first time anyone
> goes to the mike for a particular WG.

Wasn't this solved at the Hiroshima IETF? At least at the technical
level :-)

	rvdp

---

From: Scott Brim <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 16:01:40 +0200

>> In particular, I notice that with non-native English speakers, or
>> at least, people with non-English names, that the names spoken at
>> the mic tend to be mumbled far more.

Generally they are said as they are at home, not mumbled.

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 16:10:09 +0200

> Generally they are said as they are at home, not mumbled.

The two are not mutually exclusive.  On the average, when many of us are 
in our home environment, we speak quickly and we mumble...

But the salient point is that /everyone/ -- native and non-native 
English -- needs to talk at the microphone as if we are speaking to a 
limited listener.  It does not need to be a caricature style, but it 
needs to be a bit slower and often quite a bit better/distinct 
pronounciation than we normally speak.

And especially when stating our name.

d/

---

From: Scott Brim <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 16:14:02 +0200

There was once an idea for waving your badge at a sensor on the mike and
having your name displayed on the (a) screen.