Subject: Re: [Asrg] New take on emerging idea. (yet another C-R system?)

From: "John Constantinescu" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 20:47:51 -0600

>On Mon, 07 Apr 2003, John Constantinescu wrote:
>
> > I had never heard of TMDA brefore, but I can tell you now why it will 
>not
> > work, and mine will:
>
>[snip]
>
>I can tell you why CR systems requiring human input in general
>will never work for establishing 'is-not-a-spammer' creditentials:
>
>They're generally insulting and usually inappropriate.

Yes, I agree. server generated turing tests are insulting.
that is why, in my system, the duty falls to the user to create their own 
fun interesting test. In fact people love to personalize their stuff (sig 
lines, custom picture avatars in weblogs, etc...). they might at some point 
even boycot a system that does not allow them to create their own personal 
test(a then itegral part of the sysem).

>I've mailed a few people using such systems. Usually these are people
>who ask a question on a mailing list, but sometimes they write
>unsolicited because they read something I wrote. I spend time answering
>them, and then they want me to play some stupid game for the priviledge.
>I never bother, and never will.

This is a specific case. You the sender are inconvinienced, and the user of 
this system never got your response. they just think you never sent it. The 
user experiences no inconvinience. that is the point of the system. I decide 
I dont want to deal with people that don't want to deal with me.

In my system, the "challenge" is similar to me sending a "thanks for 
emailing me" message back, then you sending a "your welcome". In fact the 
Challenge could say thanks, and then ask the question.

I'm guessing you got a server generated message asking you to "type the word 
you see in the box"

>As far as the other side of things, such systems are worthless for
>businesses. Asking customers to jump through hoops for the honor of
>inquiring about my business is a complete non-starter.

This solution was not meant to target the buissiness user. It was meant to 
target the new internet user. The one who might actually buy the product 
mentioned in a spam email. When was the last time you(the experienced 
internet user) bought anything from a spam email? If the market(meaning new 
users) becomes unresponsive to spam, spam will not be a viable marketing 
strategy, and will end.

>There are other problems related to the use of multiple email addresses
>(I send mail under several identites, and recieve under probably a
>hundred). Without creating unique 1-1 maps between correspondent pairs,
>you have huge problems there (and if you do, what about N-way groups?).

That is an impimentation decision. a good system might have a special tool 
to handle mailing lists.

>Mail delivery needs to occur without human intervention.

Mail begins and ends with people.

-John

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---

From: Kee Hinckley <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 12:13:16 -0400

At 8:47 PM -0600 4/8/03, John Constantinescu wrote:
>that is why, in my system, the duty falls to the user to create 
>their own fun interesting test. In fact people love to personalize 
>their stuff (sig lines,

This doesn't make it less insulting or inappropriate.  No matter how 
you mask it, it's a "game" that I have to play in order to talk to 
you.  It implicitly assumes that your time is more important than 
mine, and that my message is less important to you than avoiding 
spam.  As I have said extensively in the archives--there is a 
mistaken assumption in C/R.  It assumes that you care less about 
receiving the message than I care about sending it.  There are many, 
many cases where this is not true.

>This is a specific case. You the sender are inconvinienced, and the 
>user of this system never got your response. they just think you 
>never sent it. The user experiences no inconvinience. that is the 
>point of the system. I decide I dont want to deal with people that 
>don't want to deal with me.

If the only thing you care about is inconveniencing the receiver, 
then you've completely missed the point. Email involves multiple 
people, you can't think about only one of them.  Why not just delete 
their email program?  Then they'll *never* be inconvenienced.

>emailing me" message back, then you sending a "your welcome". In 
>fact the Challenge could say thanks, and then ask the question.

You're trying to put roses on a pile of garbage.  The fact remains, 
if I don't play the game, you aren't going to read my email.  Turning 
it into a cutesy game is actually worse.  If you're going to do it, 
do it cleanly.  I'd far rather interpret some word in a graphic than 
sit there trying to figure out what obscure historical figure some 
idiot picked out for me to guess.  *Especially* if the reason I'm 
contact the person is to do them a favor.

>That is an impimentation decision. a good system might have a 
>special tool to handle mailing lists.

???!!  You clearly weren't hear last week when everyone who posted to 
the list got a challenge from someone on the list.  Dealing with 
mailing lists isn't an "implementation detail".  It is something that 
has to be designed into the system from the very start.  If you 
haven't figured out how to deal with mailing lists, bounce messages, 
vacation notices, challenges that respond with challenges from other 
similar systems and other automated email, then you need to go back 
and do some more thinking.  These aren't options--they are 
requirements of the real world.

>Mail begins and ends with people.

Trite, but not useful in the real world.  Especially when you get 
that automated notice from your ISP telling you that your credit card 
is about to expire and you need to give them a new one.
-- 
Kee Hinckley
http://www.messagefire.com/          Junk-Free Email Filtering
http://commons.somewhere.com/buzz/   Writings on Technology and Society

I'm not sure which upsets me more: that people are so unwilling to accept
responsibility for their own actions, or that they are so eager to regulate
everyone else's.
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