Subject: Re: Opt-In (Was Re: [Asrg] Proposal for Opt-Out)

From: Jeff Macdonald <[email-masked]>
Date: 04 Apr 2003 13:56:37 -0500

On Sat, 2003-03-29 at 04:00, Kee Hinckley wrote:

> Also, as has been pointed out to me offlist.  Average users have 
> serious problems with the whole email confirmation process.

Where is the data to support this claim? Would a special confirmation
header that a mail client can key off of help make this easier?

>   But 
> given a URL you get a chance to hold their hand.

How is text that is on a web page any different then text in a email
message?

I just don't get it.

-- 
Jeff Macdonald <[email-masked]>
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From: Kee Hinckley <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 16:22:11 -0500

>header that a mail client can key off of help make this easier?

The data comes from people who run large mailing lists, who report 
large numbers of people unable to confirm their own subscriptions.  I 
believe Chuq was one specific person who has mentioned this problem.

Builtin mail client support would definitely help.

>How is text that is on a web page any different then text in a email

You've got a damned if you do, damned if you don't problem.  If you 
spend enough time explaining the whole thing in email, the message is 
too long for them to read.  If you don't, some people don't get it. 
A web interface (or mail client interface) allows you to do 
successive disclosure.  First the specifics.  Then the details for 
those who need it.
-- 
Kee Hinckley
http://www.messagefire.com/          Junk-Free Email Filtering
http://commons.somewhere.com/buzz/   Writings on Technology and Society

I'm not sure which upsets me more: that people are so unwilling to accept
responsibility for their own actions, or that they are so eager to regulate
everyone else's.
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From: J C Lawrence <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 17:25:49 -0800

On 04 Apr 2003 13:56:37 -0500 

> Where is the data to support this claim? 

I serve a moderately technical audience with my lists (primarily
internet game designers and developers).  From that population roughly
15% of attempted subscriptions never confirm.  I haven't done any
followup to find out why, but I did pick a random 20 to verify that
their attempted subscription domains did match the IP from which they
attempted to subscribe (no exceptions).

>> But given a URL you get a chance to hold their hand.

> I just don't get it.

You need to drink a lot of Michelob Lite first, perhaps for a few years,
and then attempt to view your computer, and thus your email, just like
the VCR you've never figured out how to set the time on.  I find that a
large percentage (majority?) of the great unwashed consider email to be
an actively hostile and foreign environment, with the web being
naturally more friendly and comforting, if only because it is more
TV-like.

-- 
J C Lawrence                
---------(*)                Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. 
[email-masked]               He lived as a devil, eh?		  
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/  Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live.
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From: "Richard Johnson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 04:22:24 -0600

> believe Chuq was one specific person who has mentioned this problem.

I've never seen actual data.  I've just seen anecdotal handwaving, most
(though not entirely all) of which is highly suspect due to the agenda of
the person whose hands are waving.

I've seen other anecdotal handwaving from more competent list managers
claiming near 100% confirmation rates.  They credit the wording of their
subject lines and short bodies.

A real test capable of generating real data would include competently
written instructions in contrast to the more run of the mill
marketer-written ones.

> too long for them to read.

I can't see a reason that a complete explanation for a "confirmation
required" message will be more than 3-4 sentences.

> If you don't, some people don't get it.

It's also a change of context, which by itself can focus user attention.

Richard