Subject: Re: [Asrg] Proposal: Separate ISP(s) for "guaranteed delivery" of email

From: Yakov Shafranovich <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 00:30:54 -0400

At 07:09 AM 6/23/2003 -0400, Walter Dnes wrote:

>On Fri, Jun 20, 2003 at 11:23:09AM -0400, Yakov Shafranovich wrote
>
> >  From the charter:
> > "The definition of spam messages is not clear and is not consistent
> > across different individuals or organizations. Therefore, we
> > generalize the problem into "consent-based communication". This
> > means that an individual or organization should be able to express
> > consent or lack of consent for certain communication and have the
> > architecture support those desires. "
> >
> > We have no architecture in place for consent-based communications.
> > First lets develop that architecture, and than we can decide what
> > goes into it.
>[..]
>
>The Proposal
>============
>   Business phone lines cost more than residential phone lines, and ditto
>for business versus residential ISP connections.  The best analogy is
>regular paper mail.  Ordinary letters are often insufficient for
>business and/or legal purposes.  If you want to guarantee speedy
>delivery (or delivery, period) you expect to pay extra for registered
>mail or for a courier.  Businesses will probably accept "business ISPs"
>that guarantee delivery *TO CUSTOMERS OF THAT OR ANOTHER BUSINESS ISP*.

What about interoperability? How will different email providers decided who 
is responsible for paying what? Also, who will enforce such structure? 
Postal services of many countries use a UN affiliated organization called 
the International Postal Union which settles these matters. Is it good to 
put control into one body?

>   I am suggesting a major paradigm change.  Up til now people have been
>used to "THE email system".  My proposal is to rename "THE email system"
>to "Personal Email" and create a parallel system called "Business Email".
>"Business Email" would cost extra, and *TRANSMISSION* would be only via a
>per-email and per-megabyte user fee.  The general public could join with
>free "read-only" accounts, with the option of sending one-off messages
>for a low fee.  This would literally be the best of both worlds...
>
>   - businesses would be guaranteed the delivery of important documents
>     because business ISPs could charge sufficient fees to finance a
>     sufficiently robust infra-structure.
>
>   - today's email system, used by Grandma to keep in touch with the
>     grandkids, wouldn't have to be totally perverted for the sake of
>     big business.

What about the issue of spam in Personal email?

>[..]
>   Many details remain to be filled in.  Comments, suggestions ?

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From: Walter Dnes <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:25:59 -0400

On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 12:30:54AM -0400, Yakov Shafranovich wrote

> What about interoperability? How will different email providers
> decided who is responsible for paying what? Also, who will enforce
> such structure?  Postal services of many countries use a UN affiliated
> organization called the International Postal Union which settles
> these matters. Is it good to put control into one body?

  It doesn't have to be one body; it can be several companies.  Say a
consortium which receives 50 cents per email, and the originating
company gets 25 cents per email.  (This will discourage spammers from
playing shell games with fake ISPs).  The average person can obtain
read-only accounts, with an option to send one-off emails for a dollar
each.   It will complement regular email, not replace it.  Something
along the lines of UPS/Fedex/Purolater.  Too expensive for everyday
correspondence but just right for files that absolutely *HAVE* to get
there.

> What about the issue of spam in Personal email?

  The main reason for my proposal was to provide a reliable alternative
without businesses having to lobby for "must-carry" legislation.  One
size does *NOT* fit all.  The business concept of
guranteed-delivery-come-hell-or-high-water would destroy personal email
if spammers got guaranteed delivery.  The "personal" level of blocking
is anathema to business practices.  Once we ensure that "personal email"
is *NOT* required to be business-level robust, then...
  a) filtering/blocklisting is less likely to be outlawed for "personal
     email" because businesses will have a business alternative
  b) individuals will be more likely to use filters/blocklists if
     businesses they want to deal with do have a reliable alternative.

  I haven't specified the exact mechanism for separation between
"personal email" and "business email".  It'll probably be separate
domains and/or IP addresses.  As another poster on this thread has
pointed out...

> Look at the Automotive industry, for some years they have had closed
> large scale "extranets" in form of ANX, ENX and JNX. Internet-like
> networks with IPSec encryption as standard and trusts between them.
> In US it seems that also Health Care operators have bought access from
> ANX. Set up mail to traverse this net and you can follow the traffic
> in the operator logs, who connected to who for smtp. Disconnect this
> mail from Internet and you have no spam this way.

  So my proposal isn't really 100% original.  It's an extrapolation of
the concept of existing private business networks.

-- 
Walter Dnes <[email-masked]>
Email users are divided into two classes;
1) Those who have effective spam-blocking
2) Those who wish they did

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From: Yakov Shafranovich <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 01:14:54 -0400

>correspondence but just right for files that absolutely *HAVE* to get

It just the thought of putting something like email into centralized 
control that unnerves me. Just look at what happened to ICANN. Another 
issue is that this proposal would require completely new infrastructure.

>domains and/or IP addresses.

Well if personal accounts can have read-only access, then you can just 
route business email to their personal boxes which would remain the same.

---

From: Walter Dnes <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:20:18 -0400

On Sun, Jun 29, 2003 at 01:14:54AM -0400, Yakov Shafranovich wrote

> route business email to their personal boxes which would remain the same.

  The business account will be guaranteed delivery.  The user's home
account, will be standard, not so reliable, delivery.  Again, let me
emphasize that the business ISP will follow the Fedex/Purolator/UPS
model.  Too expensive for everyday use for every piece of mail, but the
right solution when the sender is willing to pay a bit of money to
ensure that a file gets delivered.