Subject: Re: [Asrg] Grouped reply on permissions lists

From: Yakov Shafranovich <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 01:21:14 -0400

At 09:26 PM 6/22/2003 -0600, Vernon Schryver wrote:
> >From: Yakov Shafranovich <[email-masked]>
>[..]
>Do you use an HTML-enabled mailer?  I bet you do, because you would
>otherwise not be so cavalier about the games spammers play with HTML.

For the record, I use Eudora which is not HTML friendly and I made sure to 
have HTML disabled. You can search the archives and you will not find any 
HTML posts from me.

>[..]
> > I think that we had plenty of arguments both ways, and both camps are
> > staying were they are. I would suggest that either you or someone else,
> > write up a BCP or RFC, plus create some working code and get back to the
> > group. Not that I am advocating the banning of HTML, but there are plenty
> > of people that are and it is important to get stuff past theory into
> > practical useable code.
>
>The working code already exists and is wide use.  I think other
>people have said that standard SpamAssassin penalized mail in HTML.
>It's trivial to write a Procmail recipe that rejects HTML mail or
>to modify a recipe that rejects by character sets named in SMTP or
>MIME entity headers to reject "text/html".

Reread Gordon's original proposal - he is not simply proposing blocking 
HTML email - he is proposing creating a tracking system where the receiver 
can grant permission to the sender to send HTML email ONCE the initial 
ASCII email got through. This permission code is not a trivial Procmail 
recipe, and I have not seen a working copy of it yet.

The fact is that people are blocking HTML email currently and will be doing 
so. Now if Gordon and you, and others, want to preach blocking HTML, then 
do something about it. That's my point - the discussions have gone long 
enough, every one expressed their opinions, now its time to do something 
practical about it. Perhaps even create a central code repository with 
patches and instructions for major email clients, similar to the efforts of 
the Web Standards Project (http://www.webstandards.org/) - you can call it 
the "Email Standards Project" perhaps. Maybe even a compliance program with 
logos, etc. The possibilities are endless.

>If HTML issue is dropped, will you promise to be try as hard to squelch
>talk of even more hopeless efforts?

Its a research group - everyone is entitled to their opinions. I do not 
think blocking HTML is hopeless - I don't think that anyone in the group 
has argued that blocking HTML does not have SOME benefit - the question is 
only how big is that benefit is, and whether it outweighs the costs.

>  Getting Microsoft to turn on HTML
>in Outlook only when the user asks for formatting seems more promising

I don't think that Microsoft is budging anytime soon to do anything that 
does not correspond with their own interests. Plus, even if they do so, the 
damage has already been done - the installed user base is very large.

>than getting Microsoft to add CR support to Outlook or changing the
>terms and conditions for the use of Hotmail to prohibit sending from
>any except Hotmail SMTP clients and so make RMX meaningful.

For the record, I had never advocated getting Microsoft to add C/R support 
for Outlook. C/R systems are coming into wider use, I do not advocate for 
or against their use, however once they are present I am just trying to 
make sure that they are inter-operable - that's why I am collaborating with 
Eric Dean on the CRI protocol. This is a research group - we are looking at 
everything under the sun and I am glad  that all these issues are coming up.

Yakov

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yakov Shafranovich / <[email-masked]>
SolidMatrix Research, a division of SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"One who watches the wind will never sow, and one who keeps his eyes on
the clouds will never reap" (Ecclesiastes 11:4)
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