Subject: [Cellar] Cellar Meeting minutes for 2021-08-24 Virtual Interim

From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 15:04:19 -0500

CELLAR – DRAFT AGENDA for Virtual Interim Meeting
DateTimeLocal Times
2021-08-24 21:00 Amsterdam Time Converter
<https://savvytime.com/converter/netherlands-amsterdam-to-utc-ny-new-york-city-ca-san-francisco/jun-22-2021/9pm>
Note Meeting time is anchored to Amsterdam
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Administrivia>Administrivia
<https://notes.ietf.org/#INFO>INFO:

https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/chair-notes/tree/master/interim-2021-07
Note that we’re now pointing to the Github repo for chair notes here
<https://notes.ietf.org/#WEB-CONFERENCE>WEB CONFERENCE:

https://whereby.com/cellar-interim

THERE IS NO TELEPHONE DIALIN (You can try connecting to the whereby.com link
at any time.)
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Shared-COMIMD-for-notetaking-httpscodimdietforgnotes-cellar-virtual>Shared
COMIMD for notetaking: https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-cellar-virtual

   - Note that if you log in to the IETF datatracker, you’ll
   be able to edit these notes, add your name to attendee
   lists, etc.
   - Please ask Spencer if you have questions.

The ComiMD URL is still redirecting, but the newly official location is
https://notes.ietf.org/notes-cellar-virtual?edit - and that’s active now.
Please bookmark the new one when you’re redirected to it.
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Logistics-for-Meeting>Logistics for Meeting
<https://notes.ietf.org/#2021-virtual-interim-meeting-dates>2021 virtual
interim meeting dates

   - Please note our 2021 dates listed at
   https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/cellar/meetings/
   - IETF 112 will also be a fully online meeting (announced 2021-08-04),
   so we will not be meeting face-to-face in Madrid, right? Perhaps in
   early December, close to Amsterdam with a workshop on FFv1 and Matroska
   (also in person) More info at https://mediaarea.net/NoTimeToWait5
   - ACTION: Co-chairs to propose 2022 meeting schedule in September
   meeting, for information and comment.
      - September 28, 2021: 21:00 Paris (1900 UTC)
      - October 26, 2021: 21:00 Paris (1900 UTC)
      - November 23, 2021: 21:00 Paris (2000 UTC)

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Agenda-Items>Agenda Items
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Note-Well-httpswwwietforgaboutnote-well>Note Well:
https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/ <https://notes.ietf.org/#Roll-call>Roll
call

Attendees

   - Spencer Dawkins
   - Steve Lhomme
   - Michael Richardson
   - Jerome Martinez
   - Michael Neidermayer
   - Dave Rice

Regrets
*
<https://notes.ietf.org/#News-You-Can-Use>News You Can Use
<https://notes.ietf.org/#WG-status-update>WG status update

   - draft-ietf-cellar-codec-06 was posted 2021-04-12, in ID Exists
   - draft-ietf-cellar-ffv1-20 was PUBLISHED AS RFC 9043
   - draft-ietf-cellar-ffv1-v4-17 was posted 2021-05-25, in ID Exists
   - draft-ietf-cellar-flac-01 was posted 2021-04-27, in ID Exists
   - draft-ietf-cellar-matroska-07 was posted 2021-04-12, in ID Exists
   - draft-ietf-cellar-tags-06 was posted 2021-04-12, in ID Exists

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Milestone-review>Milestone review:

   - Matroska maybe at the end of Summer 2021? It’s closer than we thought
   - Is it worth publishing an update to ffv1-v4 that includes the goals
   we’ve discussed previously?
   - Are we ready to submit a working group draft for EBML updates (errata
   plus additions) yet? (
   https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/ebml-specification/tree/corrections-doc
   )
   - FLAC still needs an editor to complete the work. Michael did hear back
   from Florin, and he’s unable to serve as editor, so the working group has a
   decision to make about FLAC.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Discussion-on-the-call>Discussion on the call

   - Almost all the Matroska issues have PRs waiting for reviews - 7 do
   not. Steve will work on this during the coming week, and then send a
   version for review (soon) (after the PRs are merged)
   - Jerome is now able to focus on FFV1-v4, since we’ve published FFV1.
   ACTION Spencer to send e-mail to DISPATCH when we submit a (small)
   update.
   - We should wait until we have a bit more text, or bigger issues, to
   publish as a draft.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Michael-Richardson-has-asked-to-step-down-as-co-chair-for-SOME-WORKING-GROUP-after-years-of-service-in-this-role>Michael
Richardson has asked to step down as co-chair for SOME WORKING GROUP, after
years of service in this role.

   - This may be CELLAR, but also may not be. He’s asked the ADs to pick
   one.
   - We need to have a conversation about succession planning.
   - Michael and Spencer are both IETF process resources, not technical
   resources - it would be good to have at least one of each.
   - We could be using document shepherds to develop talent, but they need
   to be involved with our work, on calls, etc.
   - Open call on the Cellar mailing list? Michael has reached out to
   individuals in the past - that worked with Matroska.
   - IETF working groups do not name their own leadership - that’s an Area
   Director responsibity - but ADs make their best choices when they have all
   the information we can give them to make choices.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Accept-draft-minutes-from-previous-meeting-attached-below>Accept
draft minutes from previous meeting (attached below)

   - Any objections? Please let us know on the mailing list.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Follow-up-on-Possible-switch-to-Meetecho-for-our-calls>Follow-up
on Possible switch to Meetecho for our calls
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Discussion-on-previous-calls>Discussion on
previous calls

   - We discussed moving to Meetecho (from whereby.com) at the May meeting,
   and Spencer had an action to check on iOS and Android clients for Meetecho.
   - Spencer verified that Meetecho uses WebRTC, so should work with any
   browser, but does not currently have an iOS or Android client available.
   - Michael’s experience is that Meetecho REALLY needs to run from a
   computer, and not a phone or tablet, just because you need a lot of screen
   real estate to keep track of queues, chats, and other stuff.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Discussion-on-the-call1>Discussion on the call

   - Is using a computer for Cellar interim meetings a dealbreaker for
   anyone?
   - None on the call …
   - ACTION Spencer will request Meetecho for our September meeting.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#FFV1-v4-issues---Discussion-on-the-call>FFV1 v4
issues - Discussion on the call

   - Michael presented slides for
   https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFV1/blob/master/ffv1-v4-goals.md at the IETF
   111 Dispatch session.
   -
   https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/materials/slides-111-dispatch-cellar-wg-overview-00

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Matroska-issues---Discussion-on-the-call>Matroska
issues - Discussion on the call

   - https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/matroska-specification/pull/532
“possible
   values” maybe “defined values”…
   - https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/matroska-specification/pull/530 can
   be merged.
   - https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/matroska-specification/pull/437

<https://notes.ietf.org/#FLAC-issues---Discussion-on-the-call>FLAC issues -
Discussion on the call

   - Were not discussed on the call

<https://notes.ietf.org/#AOB>AOB?

   - None noted, except that Spencer and Michael expressed their
   appreciation for the people in the working group!

NEXT MEETING 2021-09-28 
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Notes-from-previous-meeting-for-approval>Notes
from previous meeting for approval
<https://notes.ietf.org/#CELLAR-%E2%80%93-DRAFT-AGENDA-for-Virtual-Interim-Meeting1>CELLAR
– DRAFT AGENDA for Virtual Interim Meeting
DateTimeLocal Times
2021-06-22 21:00 Amsterdam Time Converter
<https://savvytime.com/converter/netherlands-amsterdam-to-utc-ny-new-york-city-ca-san-francisco/jun-22-2021/9pm>
Note Meeting time is anchored to Amsterdam
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Administrivia1>Administrivia
<https://notes.ietf.org/#INFO1>INFO:

https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/chair-notes/tree/master/interim-2021-06
Note that we’re now pointing to the Github repo for chair notes here
<https://notes.ietf.org/#WEB-CONFERENCE1>WEB CONFERENCE:

https://whereby.com/cellar-interim

THERE IS NO TELEPHONE DIALIN (You can try connecting to the whereby.com link
at any time.)

Meetecho:
https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=d85e39bd-d5a9-4bc5-a289-1828f8e287f0
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Logistics-for-Meeting1>Logistics for Meeting
<https://notes.ietf.org/#2021-virtual-interim-meeting-dates1>2021 virtual
interim meeting dates

   - Please note our 2021 dates listed at
   https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/cellar/meetings/

Note that we do not have a July meeting - (Virtual) IETF 111 will be
2021-07-26 to 2021-07-30.
Qur next meeting will be 2021-08-24 

   - IETF 111 in July will definitely be virtual.
   - Sometime around 2021-09-28, we’ll see if we want to meet at IETF 112
   on November 6-12, 2021, in person in Madrid.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Shared-COMIMD-for-notetaking-httpscodimdietforgnotes-cellar-virtual2>Shared
COMIMD for notetaking: https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-cellar-virtual

   - Note that if you log in to the IETF datatracker, you’ll
   be able to edit these notes, add your name to attendee
   lists, etc.
   - Please ask Spencer if you have questions.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#APPEARIN-is-now-called-%E2%80%9Cwherebycom%E2%80%9D-httpswherebycomcellar-interim1>
APPEAR.IN <http://appear.in/> is now called “whereby.com” (
https://whereby.com/cellar-interim)
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Agenda-Items1>Agenda
Items <https://notes.ietf.org/#Note-Well-httpswwwietforgaboutnote-well1>Note
Well: https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/
<https://notes.ietf.org/#Roll-call1>Roll call

Attendees

   - Spencer Dawkins
   - Michael Richardson
   - Jerome Martinez
   - Michael Niedermeier
   - Steve Lhomme

Regrets

   - Reto Kromer

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Accept-draft-minutes-from-previous-meeting-attached-below1>Accept
draft minutes from previous meeting (attached below)

   - Any objections? None noted, so approved …

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Follow-up-on-Meetecho1>Follow-up on Meetecho

   - We discussed moving to Meetecho (from whereby.com) at the May meeting,
   and Spencer had an action to check on iOS and Android clients for Meetecho.
   - Spencer verified that Meetecho uses WebRTC, so should work with any
   browser, but does not currently have an iOS or Android client available.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Discussion-on-the-call5>Discussion on the call

   - Michael’s experience is that Meetecho REALLY needs to run from a
   computer, and not a phone or tablet, just because you need a lot of screen
   real estate to keep track of queues, chats, and other stuff.
   - Is that a dealbreaker for anyone?

<https://notes.ietf.org/#WG-status-update1>WG status update

   - draft-ietf-cellar-codec-06 was posted 2021-04-12, in ID Exists
   - draft-ietf-cellar-ffv1-20 was posted 2021-02-23, is now in RFC Editor
   Queue, in AUTH48 (see [AUTH48] below)
   - draft-ietf-cellar-ffv1-v4-17 was posted 2021-05-25, in ID Exists
   - draft-ietf-cellar-flac-01 was posted 2021-04-27, in ID Exists
   - draft-ietf-cellar-matroska-07 was posted 2021-04-12, in ID Exists
   - draft-ietf-cellar-tags-06 was posted 2021-04-12, in ID Exists

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Milestone-review1>Milestone review:

   - Close to celebrating on FFv1, but we need to get through AUTH48
   - Matroska maybe at the end of Summer 2021? It’s closer than we thought
   - FLAC still needs an editor to complete the work. Michael did hear back
   from Florin, and he’s unable to serve as editor, so the working group has a
   decision to make about FLAC.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Discussion-on-the-call6>Discussion on the call

   - None

<https://notes.ietf.org/#From-the-mailing-list-From-Steve-on-EBML-errata1>From
the mailing list: From Steve, on EBML errata

   - We are proceeding with a short RFC that UPDATES RFC 8794, not
   replacing that RFC, and this draft will contain only corrections for the
   errata we are aware of.
   - Jerome asked for an example of such an RFC - Spencer suggested
   https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8540/ on the mailing list (“Subject:
   Sample draft for updating RFC 8794”), with suggestions for how to map that
   example onto the new Cellar draft.
   - Steve submitted
   https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/ebml-specification/pull/413 to get
   this started - so we can reasonably

   1. pick a date for this milestone, and
   2. ask our AD to approve a new milestone (probably “Submit specification
   for RFC 8794 corrections to IESG (Standards Track)”), to make sure that we
   can publish this specification when that’s appropriate.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Discussion-on-the-call7>Discussion on the call

   - Jerome has been working on this.
   - We probably shouldn’t plan to finish our EBML corrections draft before
   we finish Matroska, because we may find things in EBML that need to be
   corrected for Matroska.
   - We created the milestone for this document, for our AD to approve.

<https://notes.ietf.org/#AUTH48-for-draft-ietf-cellar-ffv1-201>AUTH48 for
draft-ietf-cellar-ffv1-20

Email subject: AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 9043 <draft-ietf-cellar-ffv1-20.txt> NOW
AVAILABLE

Current files from RFC-Editor

   1.

   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9043.txt
   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9043.pdf
   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9043.html
   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9043.xml
   2.

   This diff shows all changes from the approved Internet-Draft:
   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9043-diff.html
   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9043-rfcdiff.html (side by side)
   3.

   This diff shows only the most recent changes:
   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9043-lastdiff.html
   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9043-lastrfcdiff.html (side by
   side)
   4.

   This diff compares the submitted and current XML files:
   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9043-xmldiff1.html
   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9043-xmldiff2.html (side by side)

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Discussion-on-the-call8>Discussion on the call

   - We didn’t have Dave, but Jerome was also working on these corrections
   with the RFC Editor.
   - Jerome thinks that all of the corrections have been agreed by all of
   the authors.
   - ACTION: The authors should review the text provided by the RFC Editor
   and (if no further changes is needed) just reply toall to the AUTH48 email
   thread and say “I agree with the most recent text provided by the RFC
   Editor”.
   - Michael and Spencer will be watching that e-mail thread in case the
   RFC Ediror identifies any changes that need to be approved by the document
   shepherd (which is Michael in this case).

<https://notes.ietf.org/#FFV1-v4-issues1>FFV1 v4 issues

   - We agreed at our previous meeting that we would use work on the
   introduction to the FFV1 v4 document as a way of agreeing on contents for
   FFV1v4, and Jerome said he would start work on the Introduction (added as
   an issue)
   - https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFV1/blob/master/ffv1-v4-goals.md as our
   current plan

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Discussion-on-the-call9>Discussion on the call

   - We discussed
   https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFV1/blob/master/ffv1-v4-goals.md on the call.
   - What about infrared images? That could immediately interest people
   like autonomous vehicle community (who have money).
   - What about signatures for stored media?
      - What is needed here? Integrity, nonrepudiation, timestamps, … we
      may need to talk about specific use cases to understand the requirements.
   - No change to the current document contents for now
   - We can talk about this on the mailing list between now and IETF 111,
   and then between IETF 111 and our next working group meeting
   - ACTION: Spencer can take the action to do a short presentation in
   ARTAREA at IETF 111 in July, showing the proposed contents for FFV1 v4 and
   pointing people to Cellar.
   -

<https://notes.ietf.org/#Matroska-issues1>Matroska issues

   - No discussion on the call

<https://notes.ietf.org/#FLAC-issues1>FLAC issues

   - No discussion on the call

<https://notes.ietf.org/#AOB1>AOB?

   - No discussion on the call

NEXT MEETING 2021-08-24