Subject: Re: [Diversity] IETF Culture

From: SM <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 13:02:54 -0700

Hi Mike,

[Following up on another mailing list to reduce ietf@ mailing list traffic]

At 13:17 18-02-2016, Michael StJohns wrote:
>I'm going to go off on a tangent.  This is only peripherally related 
>to the other topic.
>
>One of the other things that comes up with the IETF from time to 
>time is how to make the IETF more open and welcoming to newcomers. 
>The IETF has a *lot* of unwritten rules - perhaps more than most 
>organizations. *IMHO*, that may make it more difficult for newcomers 
>to figure out how things work and where they can push or pull to 
>effect change - there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that this may be 
>the case.  I would also tend to believe that written rules with 
>plain meanings (that are mostly followed) tend to level the playing 
>field for those just joining.
>
>(A quick google search - "written vs unwritten rules newcomers" 
>finds 
>http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/battah-workplace-rules-1.3274856 
>for example - there are a lot of others in this space)
>
>So I'm not so sure that the above is a universal truth.    Both you 
>and Andrew (and me FWIW) are long term participants and tend to know 
>where the levers are.  I wonder if those just joining us would agree?

A rule is defined as "one of a set of explicit or understood 
regulations or principles governing conduct or procedure within a 
particular area of activity" [1].  I agree that written rules with 
plain meanings tend to level the playing field for those who are not 
long term participants.  A procedure would have to be explicit if it 
is expected that all participants understand it.  This entails 
documenting the procedure so that any participant can learn about the rule.

One of the definitions of "culture" is "the ideas, customs, and 
social behaviour of a particular people or society" 
[2].  The  "unwritten rules" in what is written above could be read 
as: the IETF has a lot of customs.  An interesting point in the link 
is "just because someone has been around, doesn't necessarily mean 
they can sort through the subtleties of [the] culture".

A person who has just joined can bring in a fresh perspective.  Do 
those customs encourage that?  Are all those customs relevant today?

Regards,
-sm

1. http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/rule
2. http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/culture

---

From: Abdussalam Baryun <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 15:05:14 +0200

I think it is good that we look into unwritten rules, or defining the IETF
culture, or looking into what needs to change in the IETF culture, or what
a newcomer needs to know about the IETF culture. When I first participated
in IETF I seen good things and bad things and that is normal in any
organisation, but the great thing in IETF is that it has some very nice
people to know and work with (any organisation needs more nice and
cooperative people). Any organisation has a culture and no doubt that it is
changing by time or by people, but rules and managers both help to guide
the directions to success or failure. Heads or Chairmans need to define and
audit the organisation culture and the direction of its changes.

I think the IETF general area is responsible to get a group to work on
these issues or unwritten views. The importance of planning for newcomers
welcomed and involved into the IETF, reminds me of countries that plan
(work hard with groups) to get new immigrants that make the country more
powerful/intellegent/success. So the question is, Do we have in IETF a
progress plan for better culture or for newcomers? maybe ietf has unwritten
plans or unwritten rules that complicate the culture-change or
new-perspectives.

AB

On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 10:02 PM, SM <[email-masked]> wrote:

>> I'm going to go off on a tangent.  This is only peripherally related to
>> the other topic.
>>
>> One of the other things that comes up with the IETF from time to time is
>> how to make the IETF more open and welcoming to newcomers. The IETF has a
>> *lot* of unwritten rules - perhaps more than most organizations. *IMHO*,
>> that may make it more difficult for newcomers to figure out how things work
>> and where they can push or pull to effect change - there's a lot of
>> anecdotal evidence that this may be the case.  I would also tend to believe
>> that written rules with plain meanings (that are mostly followed) tend to
>> level the playing field for those just joining.
>>
>> (A quick google search - "written vs unwritten rules newcomers" finds
>> So I'm not so sure that the above is a universal truth.    Both you and
>> Andrew (and me FWIW) are long term participants and tend to know where the
>> levers are.  I wonder if those just joining us would agree?
>>
>
> A rule is defined as "one of a set of explicit or understood regulations
> or principles governing conduct or procedure within a particular area of
> activity" [1].  I agree that written rules with plain meanings tend to
> level the playing field for those who are not long term participants.  A
> procedure would have to be explicit if it is expected that all participants
> understand it.  This entails documenting the procedure so that any
> participant can learn about the rule.
>
> One of the definitions of "culture" is "the ideas, customs, and social
> behaviour of a particular people or society" [2].  The  "unwritten rules"
> in what is written above could be read as: the IETF has a lot of customs.
> An interesting point in the link is "just because someone has been around,
> doesn't necessarily mean they can sort through the subtleties of [the]
> culture".
>
> A person who has just joined can bring in a fresh perspective.  Do those
> customs encourage that?  Are all those customs relevant today?
>
> Regards,
> -sm
>
> _______________________________________________
> diversity mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity
>

---

From: SM <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 22:58:51 -0700

Hi Abdussalam,
At 06:05 20-03-2016, Abdussalam Baryun wrote:
>I think the IETF general area is responsible to get a group to work 
>on these issues or unwritten views. The importance of planning for 
>newcomers welcomed and involved into the IETF, reminds me of 
>countries that plan (work hard with groups) to get new immigrants 
>that make the country more powerful/intellegent/success. So the 
>question is, Do we have in IETF a progress plan for better culture 
>or for newcomers? maybe ietf has unwritten plans or unwritten rules 
>that complicate the culture-change or new-perspectives.

There will be a presentation about "unwritten rules" in Buenos 
Aires.  The group responsible for working on those issues is the EDU 
team ( https://www.ietf.org/edu/ ).

The unwritten rule nowadays is not to say anything which might cause 
offence.  A person who is not a newcomer will understand what is not 
being said.  A person who is not a newcomer but who is inexperienced 
will not understand what is not being said.

Regards,
-sm