
From nobody Fri Feb  1 04:35:03 2019
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Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2019 12:34:57 +0000
From: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
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Subject: [DNSOP] CDS and multi-provider DNSSEC
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I'm working on tools for KSK rollover automation at the moment.

It turns out that CDS records are very useful even if your parent zone
doesn't check them.

KSK rolls work better when the DS records are not simply generated from
the current DNSKEY RRset. You need to be a bit more clever if you want to
minimize interactions with the parent zone, or minimize the DNSKEY RRset
size, or do an algorithm rollover.

So your tool for setting DS records needs some way to ask the key store
what DS records should be. The nice thing about CDS records is that they
provide a standard way to do this, independent of the key store or signing
software. This allows registrar API clients to be decoupled from the
DNSSEC implementation.

This makes me wonder how well this observation generalizes to
multi-provider DNSSEC.

In model 1, the zone owner manages the KSK, so all the CDS/DS logic
remains centralized.

In model 2, each DNS provider has its own KSK, and does its own DNSKEY
RRset management. In order to support CDS/CDNSKEY, I think it is necessary
for each provider to (somehow) generate RRsets that are the union of their
CDS/CDNSKEY RRsets and the other provider's.

In normal cases, I think the "somehow" involves getting the other
provider's RRset, replacing any records corresponding to this provider's
keys with what this provider thinks they should be, and retaining any
records for unknown keys (which presumably belong to the other provider).
There's a mildly awkward risk of zombie records that are copied back and
forth despite neither provider knowing about them, but I suppose that can
be fixed manually if it arises. Or maybe it's simpler if this is done via
an API, like ZSK sharing :-)

Algorithm rollovers are more difficult, because loose consistency will not
work: a new algorithm needs to be introduced into the DS RRset for all
providers at the same time, and same for removing an old algorithm. In any
case, a zone owner will have to co-ordinate an algorithm rollover between
the providers, so it isn't a big problem that CDS records can't help.

Tony.
-- 
f.anthony.n.finch  <dot@dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
Fitzroy: Northerly or northwesterly 7 to severe gale 9, decreasing 6 at times
later. Very high at first in south, otherwise high, becoming very rough later.
Showers, thundery in south. Good, occasionally poor.


From nobody Fri Feb  1 09:32:47 2019
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From: Wes Hardaker <wjhns1@hardakers.net>
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Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2019 09:32:40 -0800
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Subject: [DNSOP] Implementations of extended error?
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Folks,

We (some definite of we, possibly including you) are curious who is
planning (or has already) implemented the Extended Error EDNS0 extension [1]?
As DNSOP is preferring RFCs that have been implemented already, it would
be good to know what plans exist or have been completed.

[1]: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-extended-error/

-- 
Wes Hardaker
USC/ISI


From nobody Fri Feb  1 09:39:13 2019
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------T9H4C93XI58KOTRY6P0FIB4PFFYMPV
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Wes,

I was thinking about adding some support for this at the IETF hackathon, b=
ut I'll be meeting with some of the open source DNS folks this weekend at F=
OSDEM, and seeing if that collides with their existing plans=2E=20

On 1 February 2019 18:32:40 CET, Wes Hardaker <wjhns1@hardakers=2Enet> wro=
te:
>
>Folks,
>
>We (some definite of we, possibly including you) are curious who is
>planning (or has already) implemented the Extended Error EDNS0
>extension [1]?
>As DNSOP is preferring RFCs that have been implemented already, it
>would
>be good to know what plans exist or have been completed=2E
>
>[1]: https://datatracker=2Eietf=2Eorg/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-extended-error=
/
>
>--=20
>Wes Hardaker
>USC/ISI
>
>_______________________________________________
>DNSOP mailing list
>DNSOP@ietf=2Eorg
>https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/dnsop

--=20
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E
------T9H4C93XI58KOTRY6P0FIB4PFFYMPV
Content-Type: text/html;
 charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><body>Wes,<br><br>I was thinking about adding some suppo=
rt for this at the IETF hackathon, but I'll be meeting with some of the ope=
n source DNS folks this weekend at FOSDEM, and seeing if that collides with=
 their existing plans=2E <br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1 February 2=
019 18:32:40 CET, Wes Hardaker &lt;wjhns1@hardakers=2Enet&gt; wrote:<blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0=2E8ex; border-lef=
t: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<pre class=3D"k9mail"><br>Folks,<br><br>We (some definite of we, possibly =
including you) are curious who is<br>planning (or has already) implemented =
the Extended Error EDNS0 extension [1]?<br>As DNSOP is preferring RFCs that=
 have been implemented already, it would<br>be good to know what plans exis=
t or have been completed=2E<br><br>[1]: <a href=3D"https://datatracker=2Eie=
tf=2Eorg/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-extended-error/">https://datatracker=2Eietf=
=2Eorg/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-extended-error/</a><br></pre></blockquote></div=
><br>-- <br>Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my b=
revity=2E</body></html>
------T9H4C93XI58KOTRY6P0FIB4PFFYMPV--


From nobody Fri Feb  1 13:21:14 2019
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From: Wes Hardaker <wjhns1@hardakers.net>
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Shane Kerr <shane@time-travellers.org> writes:

> I was thinking about adding some support for this at the IETF hackathon, but I'll be
> meeting with some of the open source DNS folks this weekend at FOSDEM, and seeing if
> that collides with their existing plans.

Excellent!  I look forward to hearing the reports of the conversations.
-- 
Wes Hardaker
USC/ISI


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From: Anbang Wen <anb@papla.net>
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Hi Wes,

At Cloudflare, we are testing our crude implementation on our public
resolver which is built on top of knot-resolver. It would be good to
nudge others into working on it.

-- 
Anbang Wen


From nobody Mon Feb  4 02:33:04 2019
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From: Shane Kerr <shane@time-travellers.org>
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Anbang Wen,

On 02/02/2019 20.04, Anbang Wen wrote:
> 
> At Cloudflare, we are testing our crude implementation on our public
> resolver which is built on top of knot-resolver. It would be good to
> nudge others into working on it.

Is it already on GitHub or GitLab or something like that? Nudging is 
easier if the first thing to do is "git clone". ðŸ˜‰

Cheers,

--
Shane


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From: Shane Kerr <shane@time-travellers.org>
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Wes,

On 01/02/2019 22.21, Wes Hardaker wrote:
> Shane Kerr <shane@time-travellers.org> writes:
> 
>> I was thinking about adding some support for this at the IETF hackathon, but I'll be
>> meeting with some of the open source DNS folks this weekend at FOSDEM, and seeing if
>> that collides with their existing plans.
> 
> Excellent!  I look forward to hearing the reports of the conversations.

My own thinking is that extended error is much more important on the 
resolver side than on the authoritative side, so that's what I was 
asking about. The stub side is also super-important, so maybe I should 
look at that too.

There was some discussion that it might be tricky to get correct 
information out of the bowels of a resolver that wasn't designed with 
this sort of reporting in mind. I'm not so worried about that, as any 
additional information seems better than SERVFAIL to me. ðŸ˜‰

Here's what I took away (people can and should correct me where I am wrong):

* ISC has no specific plans for BIND, but will implement extended error 
codes eventually. "Looks like a reference implementation if you stand 
back a bit and squint."

* CZ.NIC has no plans for Knot Resolver, and still have to look 
carefully at the latest draft (although Petr has some interesting ideas 
about what he thinks is valuable in this area).

* NLnetLabs has no specific plans, but Willem thinks that it is cool and 
wants to work with me on it at the Hackathon. Maybe I can work on 
Unbound and he can work on getdns, so we can have inter-operable tests 
(admittedly from a single company).

I forgot to ask anyone from PowerDNS, which is kind of stupid of me 
since they did 99% of the work for the DNS devroom at FOSDEM (especially 
Peter van Dijk).

As far as the stub side, I also didn't ask anyone from the 
systemd-resolverd side, but given that they apparently disable basically 
all DNS functionality introduced after RFC 1035 by default, I don't know 
how useful support there would be.

And finally also on the stub side, I did not talk to anyone on the glibc 
team or anyone of the distribution folks depending on it.

Apologies for any incorrect reporting here, and for anyone that I omitted.

Cheers,

--
Shane


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--0000000000001c071d05811055e3
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There is not yet a proper IANA allocated option code for this.

Might I suggest that all interested parties settle on 65015 from the
local/experimental block until the real thing arrives.


Dick Franks
________________________



On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 17:33, Wes Hardaker <wjhns1@hardakers.net> wrote:

>
> Folks,
>
> We (some definite of we, possibly including you) are curious who is
> planning (or has already) implemented the Extended Error EDNS0 extension
> [1]?
> As DNSOP is preferring RFCs that have been implemented already, it would
> be good to know what plans exist or have been completed.
>
> [1]: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-extended-error/
>
> --
> Wes Hardaker
> USC/ISI
>
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>

--0000000000001c071d05811055e3
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>There is not yet a proper=
 IANA allocated option code for this.</div><div><br></div><div>Might I sugg=
est that all interested parties settle on 65015 from the local/experimental=
 block until the real thing arrives.<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div=
><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_si=
gnature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Dick Franks<br><span><font color=3D"#888888">____=
____________________<br>
</font></span><br></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 17:33, Wes Ha=
rdaker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wjhns1@hardakers.net">wjhns1@hardakers.net</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
Folks,<br>
<br>
We (some definite of we, possibly including you) are curious who is<br>
planning (or has already) implemented the Extended Error EDNS0 extension [1=
]?<br>
As DNSOP is preferring RFCs that have been implemented already, it would<br=
>
be good to know what plans exist or have been completed.<br>
<br>
[1]: <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-extended-=
error/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d=
oc/draft-ietf-dnsop-extended-error/</a><br>
<br>
-- <br>
Wes Hardaker<br>
USC/ISI<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DNSOP mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DNSOP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">DNSOP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 11:30:50 +1100
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Accounting for Special Use Names in Application Protocols
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I've modified that slightly to come up with this proposal:

"""
HTTP and HTTPS URIs rely on some name resolution mechanism(s) to =
interpret the authority field and ultimately convert it into an =
identifier (typically, IPv4 or IPv6 addresses). Often, this is DNS =
[ref].

When DNS is consulted for resolution of the authority field, this =
specification requires adherence to the requirements that all registered =
special use names [RFC6761] place upon applications; if they are not =
honoured, security, privacy and interoperability issues may be =
encountered.
"""

Make sense?

Thanks,


> On 9 Jan 2019, at 1:23 pm, Brian Dickson =
<brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 4:21 AM Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at> wrote:
> Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> > I think it might be good to scope the 6761 issue, with something =
like the
> > following:
>=20
> [SNIP]
>=20
> > > I.e. it is necessary to recognize all special use names, and =
necessary to
> > > not resolve such names via DNS.
>=20
> That's going too far: special-use domain names must have specific
> instructions to application authors, which might say not to use the
> DNS or might say to use the DNS as usual.
>=20
> Hi, Tony,
> You are, of course, right. I think what I meant was, for the specific =
case of .onion, (what I said),
> and for the general case, (what you said). I.e. wherever an RFC for =
specific special use name exists,
> as linked by the IANA registry, those particular instructions MUST be =
followed, especially if not following
> those rules might/would break things (like the case of .onion vs DNS).
>=20
> Brian
>=20
> =20
> David Schinazi's comment on the GitHub issue about referring to the =
IANA
> registry is good, and perhaps more useful than referring to RFCs =
directly.
>=20
> Tony.
> --=20
> f.anthony.n.finch  <dot@dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
> Trafalgar: Northeast 3 or 4, increasing 5 at times. Moderate. Fair. =
Good.

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


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Hi Mark,

On 4 Feb 2019, at 19:30, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:

> I've modified that slightly to come up with this proposal:
>=20
> """
> HTTP and HTTPS URIs rely on some name resolution mechanism(s) to =
interpret the authority field and ultimately convert it into an =
identifier (typically, IPv4 or IPv6 addresses). Often, this is DNS =
[ref].
>=20
> When DNS is consulted for resolution of the authority field, this =
specification requires adherence to the requirements that all registered =
special use names [RFC6761] place upon applications; if they are not =
honoured, security, privacy and interoperability issues may be =
encountered.
> """
>=20
> Make sense?

I confess I have not being following this thread as closely as perhaps I =
should, but the text above strikes me as odd.

RFC 6761 describes a registry of special *domain names* -- it's talking =
about the namespace, not the resolution protocol. In some cases the =
registry directs applications to use different resolution protocols =
(protocols other than the DNS) to look things up. The LOCAL and ONION =
domains are examples. It's the contents of the registry that are =
important, not that subset of initial registry contents that are =
specified in RFC 6761, as I think Tony pointed out.

The text you suggested could suggest that an application should consult =
the DNS for a name that ends in LOCAL and simultaneously satisfy the =
requirements implied by LOCAL's presence in the Special-Use Domain Name =
registry, which include not using the DNS. This doesn't seem =
particularly clear.

Since I've been staring out of the window for the rest of the thread =
thinking vaguely about lunch it seems a bit presumptuous to suggest =
alternative text, but perhaps something like this would be better:

---
Resolution of the authority field MUST adhere to any special =
requirements documented in the Special-Use Domain Names registry [ref] =
which might specify that some protocol other than DNS be used for =
resolution for names within a particular domain. If those special =
requirements are not honoured diligently, security, privacy and =
interoperability problems might well result.

For example, consider the authority field EXAMPLE.LOCAL, intended to =
resolve to an address on a local, private network using the Multicast =
DNS resolution protocol [RFC6762]. If the DNS was used as a resolution =
protocol, the existence of the local-scope name EXAMPLE.LOCAL and this =
particular instance of its use might be revealed to third-party DNS =
servers; there is also a risk that attacks on the DNS system outside the =
local network could cause the EXAMPLE.LOCAL name to be resolved to an =
external, third-party address with attendant risks to privacy and =
security for higher-layer protocols and the application itself. Such =
risks are avoided by ensuring that resolution of names in the LOCAL =
domain are only attempted by the application using the Multicast DNS =
protocol.
---


Joe


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From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 12:46:26 +1100
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Accounting for Special Use Names in Application Protocols
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I like it; will append to the issue. Thanks.

> On 5 Feb 2019, at 11:50 am, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Mark,
>=20
> On 4 Feb 2019, at 19:30, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
>=20
>> I've modified that slightly to come up with this proposal:
>>=20
>> """
>> HTTP and HTTPS URIs rely on some name resolution mechanism(s) to =
interpret the authority field and ultimately convert it into an =
identifier (typically, IPv4 or IPv6 addresses). Often, this is DNS =
[ref].
>>=20
>> When DNS is consulted for resolution of the authority field, this =
specification requires adherence to the requirements that all registered =
special use names [RFC6761] place upon applications; if they are not =
honoured, security, privacy and interoperability issues may be =
encountered.
>> """
>>=20
>> Make sense?
>=20
> I confess I have not being following this thread as closely as perhaps =
I should, but the text above strikes me as odd.
>=20
> RFC 6761 describes a registry of special *domain names* -- it's =
talking about the namespace, not the resolution protocol. In some cases =
the registry directs applications to use different resolution protocols =
(protocols other than the DNS) to look things up. The LOCAL and ONION =
domains are examples. It's the contents of the registry that are =
important, not that subset of initial registry contents that are =
specified in RFC 6761, as I think Tony pointed out.
>=20
> The text you suggested could suggest that an application should =
consult the DNS for a name that ends in LOCAL and simultaneously satisfy =
the requirements implied by LOCAL's presence in the Special-Use Domain =
Name registry, which include not using the DNS. This doesn't seem =
particularly clear.
>=20
> Since I've been staring out of the window for the rest of the thread =
thinking vaguely about lunch it seems a bit presumptuous to suggest =
alternative text, but perhaps something like this would be better:
>=20
> ---
> Resolution of the authority field MUST adhere to any special =
requirements documented in the Special-Use Domain Names registry [ref] =
which might specify that some protocol other than DNS be used for =
resolution for names within a particular domain. If those special =
requirements are not honoured diligently, security, privacy and =
interoperability problems might well result.
>=20
> For example, consider the authority field EXAMPLE.LOCAL, intended to =
resolve to an address on a local, private network using the Multicast =
DNS resolution protocol [RFC6762]. If the DNS was used as a resolution =
protocol, the existence of the local-scope name EXAMPLE.LOCAL and this =
particular instance of its use might be revealed to third-party DNS =
servers; there is also a risk that attacks on the DNS system outside the =
local network could cause the EXAMPLE.LOCAL name to be resolved to an =
external, third-party address with attendant risks to privacy and =
security for higher-layer protocols and the application itself. Such =
risks are avoided by ensuring that resolution of names in the LOCAL =
domain are only attempted by the application using the Multicast DNS =
protocol.
> ---
>=20
>=20
> Joe
>=20

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


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From: Wes Hardaker <wjhns1@hardakers.net>
To: Dick Franks <rwfranks@gmail.com>
Cc: Wes Hardaker <wjhns1@hardakers.net>,  IETF DNSOP WG <dnsop@ietf.org>
References: <ybl5zu3qurr.fsf@w7.hardakers.net> <CAKW6Ri6fnejevDcaXkCnyQRpeRuQabb-qjahjzwmz5Y2hNBchQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2019 09:03:49 -0800
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Implementations of extended error?
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Dick Franks <rwfranks@gmail.com> writes:

> There is not yet a proper IANA allocated option code for this.
> 
> Might I suggest that all interested parties settle on 65015 from the
> local/experimental block until the real thing arrives.

That seems reasonable.

-- 
Wes Hardaker
USC/ISI


From nobody Tue Feb  5 10:59:52 2019
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From: Wes Hardaker <wjhns1@hardakers.net>
To: Shane Kerr <shane@time-travellers.org>
Cc: Wes Hardaker <wjhns1@hardakers.net>,  dnsop@ietf.org
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Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2019 09:03:07 -0800
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Shane Kerr <shane@time-travellers.org> writes:

> My own thinking is that extended error is much more important on the
> resolver side than on the authoritative side, so that's what I was
> asking about.

That's fair; it's a generic mechanism but authoritative servers have less
reason to return most of the codes (though I cloud see Prohibited and
Blocked being useful for authoratatives).

(And actually, I just read the "Lame" description in the draft, and it's
actually broken.  It should talk about what to do for both.  I've now fixed
that and will push a new version)

> There was some discussion that it might be tricky to get correct
> information out of the bowels of a resolver that wasn't designed with
> this sort of reporting in mind.

Yeah, I suspect there are some code bases that this simply won't work with EDE
without a major rearchitecture.  If they're currently returning a
single error code from the depths of a stack trace, they won't be able
to easily return either a double-code or potentially modify their
codes to be more descriptive.  Then we get to "error text" as well and
it gets worse.

> Here's what I took away (people can and should correct me where I am wrong):

Thanks for the summary!  Sounds like it was a good discussion.

-- 
Wes Hardaker
USC/ISI


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Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 13:38:32 +0530
From: Mukund Sivaraman <muks@mukund.org>
To: Benno Overeinder <benno@nlnetlabs.nl>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Call for Adoption: draft-song-atr-large-resp
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On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 06:55:16PM +0100, Benno Overeinder wrote:
> Please review this draft to see if you think it is suitable for
> adoption by DNSOP, and comments to the list, clearly stating your
> view.

Considering that the method is implementable without any changes at a
resolver, and that it doesn't require compatible behavior among DNS
implementations ("protocol" or best practice), I suppose it does not
matter if this draft is adopted or not as long as the idea has been
described somewhere.

		Mukund


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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Implementations of extended error?
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On 04. 02. 19 11:51, Shane Kerr wrote:
> * CZ.NIC has no plans for Knot Resolver, and still have to look
> carefully at the latest draft (although Petr has some interesting ideas
> about what he thinks is valuable in this area).

Thank you for reminding me, Shane!

My personal goal is to provide advice to users "who to call" because
neither user or tech support lines want to waste time on issues they
cannot fix. (ISP is not going to fix botched bank domain, and vice
versa.) It should not (only) a diagnostics tool for DNS geeks!

Let me elaborate:

We at CZ.NIC experience what it is like to be registry (CZ), software
vendor (Knot Resolver), and DNS support team (for Turris routers) at the
same time...

Based on this experience I came to conclusion that it would have
tremendous value if we can split DNS problems to two coarse categories:
far/local end problems. Of course more information is bonus for geeks.

Ideally the error code should provide the client software with enough
information to decide what message should be shown to end-user:

a] inform your system/network admin/ISP
- when a "local" problem is detected
- examples:
-- local time is likely off (. NS signature expired/not yet valid?!)
-- everything times out
-- everything is REFUSED (client blocked for abuse)

b] inform site owner (your bank), do not call your ISP!
- e.g. all auths return REFUSED, botched DNSSEC signatures, ...


I can imagine 4 possibilities:
00 - do not call anyone (no-error messages)
01 - call network admin/ISP
10 - call domain owner
11 - call someone, we do not know what happened


This obviously does not conflict with detailed information in current
proposal, I have nothing against it.

Does it seem useful to others?

-- 
Petr Å paÄek  @  CZ.NIC


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Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 13:16:01 +0100
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Subject: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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Hello dnsop,

here is a quiz for experienced RFC archeologists:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1035#section-5.2
section 5.2. Use of master files to define zones
does not mention NS at apex at all, but it does explicitly mention SOA
at apex. Can it be interpreted as if NS at apex is not mandatory?

Funnily enough
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1035#section-5.3
has an example which as NS at apex, but it is not clear from the text above.

Is it mandatory or not? Should I submit erratum for RFC 1035?

Thank you for clarification.

-- 
Petr Å paÄek  @  CZ.NIC


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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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On 07. 02. 19 13:39, Ted Lemon wrote:
> Why would NS at the apex be mandatory?   What breaks if itâ€™s not there?
> 
> (Playing the devilâ€™s advocateâ€”Iâ€™m also curious about this, but I think the answer is that nothing breaks.)

When looking at it from resolver perspective, what is the resolver
supposed to do with query "zone. NS" if there is no authoritative NS set
in the zone? Return NOERROR+NODATA?

Returning non-authoritative NS set in ANSWER section sounds wrong to me.

-- 
Petr Å paÄek  @  CZ.NIC


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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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On Feb 7, 2019, at 7:44 AM, Petr =C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek <petr.spacek@nic.cz> =
wrote:
> When looking at it from resolver perspective, what is the resolver
> supposed to do with query "zone. NS" if there is no authoritative NS =
set
> in the zone? Return NOERROR+NODATA?

It should reply with no error and no data.   But this is okay, because =
you never need to ask this question in order to resolve a name.   If you =
are looking up an NS record with intent to use it, it=E2=80=99s going to =
be in the parent zone, where you are looking for a delegation.

The real question is whether the NS record needs to be validated.   If =
it does, then it needs to be signed, and so it needs to appear in the =
zone.   But that=E2=80=99s what the DS record is for, right?   :)


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Feb 7, 2019, at 7:44 AM, Petr =C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:petr.spacek@nic.cz" class=3D"">petr.spacek@nic.cz</a>&gt; =
wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">When looking =
at it from resolver perspective, what is the resolver</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">supposed to =
do with query "zone. NS" if there is no authoritative NS set</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">in the zone? =
Return NOERROR+NODATA?</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">It should reply with no error and no data. &nbsp; But this is =
okay, because you never need to ask this question in order to resolve a =
name. &nbsp; If you are looking up an NS record with intent to use it, =
it=E2=80=99s going to be in the parent zone, where you are looking for a =
delegation.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
real question is whether the NS record needs to be validated. &nbsp; If =
it does, then it needs to be signed, and so it needs to appear in the =
zone. &nbsp; But that=E2=80=99s what the DS record is for, right? &nbsp; =
:)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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On 07. 02. 19 13:52, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Feb 7, 2019, at 7:44 AM, Petr Å paÄek <petr.spacek@nic.cz
> <mailto:petr.spacek@nic.cz>> wrote:
>> When looking at it from resolver perspective, what is the resolver
>> supposed to do with query "zone. NS" if there is no authoritative NS set
>> in the zone? Return NOERROR+NODATA?
> 
> It should reply with no error and no data. Â  But this is okay, because
> you never need to ask this question in order to resolve a name. Â  If you
> are looking up an NS record with intent to use it, itâ€™s going to be in
> the parent zone, where you are looking for a delegation.

I feel something bad will happen if parent and child zone is on the same
auth server and resolver is using query name minimization...
(This configuration *does* exist in wild as we know from debugging Knot
Resolver - we do query name minimization by default.)

My gut feeling is that it should be mandatory but I would like to hear
from other implementers what assumptions they have in code.

Petr Å paÄek  @  CZ.NIC


> The real question is whether the NS record needs to be validated. Â  If
> it does, then it needs to be signed, and so it needs to appear in the
> zone. Â  But thatâ€™s what the DS record is for, right? Â  :)


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On Feb 7, 2019, at 8:00 AM, Petr =C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek <petr.spacek@nic.cz> =
wrote:
> I feel something bad will happen if parent and child zone is on the =
same
> auth server and resolver is using query name minimization...
> (This configuration *does* exist in wild as we know from debugging =
Knot
> Resolver - we do query name minimization by default.)

Interesting!   What goes wrong?


--Apple-Mail=_04BF544B-FE91-4C56-81FB-E05FC5164554
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Feb 7, 2019, at 8:00 AM, Petr =C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:petr.spacek@nic.cz" class=3D"">petr.spacek@nic.cz</a>&gt; =
wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">I feel =
something bad will happen if parent and child zone is on the =
same</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">auth server =
and resolver is using query name minimization...</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">(This =
configuration *does* exist in wild as we know from debugging =
Knot</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Resolver - we =
do query name minimization by default.)</span><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Interesting! &nbsp; What goes =
wrong?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_04BF544B-FE91-4C56-81FB-E05FC5164554--


From nobody Thu Feb  7 05:11:08 2019
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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> On 7 Feb 2019, at 11:16 pm, Petr =C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek <petr.spacek@nic.cz> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hello dnsop,
>=20
> here is a quiz for experienced RFC archeologists:
>=20
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1035#section-5.2
> section 5.2. Use of master files to define zones
> does not mention NS at apex at all, but it does explicitly mention SOA
> at apex. Can it be interpreted as if NS at apex is not mandatory?

No.  Go read RFC 1034.

> Funnily enough
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1035#section-5.3
> has an example which as NS at apex, but it is not clear from the text =
above.
>=20
> Is it mandatory or not? Should I submit erratum for RFC 1035?
>=20
> Thank you for clarification.
>=20
> --=20
> Petr =C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek  @  CZ.NIC
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop

--=20
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742              INTERNET: marka@isc.org


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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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The "apex" terminology didn't come into vogue until later. Prior to that,
people talked about the "top" of a zone.

RFC 1034 Section 4.2.1 lays this out:

"In the data that makes up a zone, NS RRs are found at the top node of the
zone (and are authoritative)".

Admittedly "are found" doesn't sound to modern ears (or look to modern
eyes) like a mandatory requirement. That's another thing that's changed
over the years: RFC 2026 was yet to be published, which tightened up the
requirement levels and how to signal them textually. When looking at
pre-RFC-2026 RFC's, one has to exercise some judgement of whether verbiage
describing "typical" or "normal" situations is actually normative, perhaps
even mandatory..


                             - Kevin

On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 7:16 AM Petr =C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek <petr.spacek@nic.cz> w=
rote:

> Hello dnsop,
>
> here is a quiz for experienced RFC archeologists:
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1035#section-5.2
> section 5.2. Use of master files to define zones
> does not mention NS at apex at all, but it does explicitly mention SOA
> at apex. Can it be interpreted as if NS at apex is not mandatory?
>
> Funnily enough
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1035#section-5.3
> has an example which as NS at apex, but it is not clear from the text
> above.
>
> Is it mandatory or not? Should I submit erratum for RFC 1035?
>
> Thank you for clarification.
>
> --
> Petr =C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek  @  CZ.NIC
>
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">The &quot;apex&quot; terminology didn&#39;t come into vogu=
e until later. Prior to that, people talked about the &quot;top&quot; of a =
zone.<div><br></div><div>RFC 1034 Section 4.2.1 lays this out:</div><div><b=
r></div><div>&quot;In the data that makes up a zone, NS RRs are found at th=
e top node of the zone (and are authoritative)&quot;.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Admittedly &quot;are found&quot; doesn&#39;t sound to modern ears (or l=
ook to modern eyes) like a mandatory requirement. That&#39;s another thing =
that&#39;s changed over the years: RFC 2026 was yet to be published, which =
tightened up the requirement levels and how to signal them textually. When =
looking at pre-RFC-2026 RFC&#39;s, one has to exercise some judgement of wh=
ether verbiage describing &quot;typical&quot; or &quot;normal&quot; situati=
ons is actually normative, perhaps even mandatory..</div><div><br></div><di=
v>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0- Kevin</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 7:16 AM Petr =C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:petr.spacek@nic.cz">petr.spacek@nic.cz</a>&gt; wrote:<br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hello dnsop,<br>
<br>
here is a quiz for experienced RFC archeologists:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1035#section-5.2" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1035#section-5.2</a><b=
r>
section 5.2. Use of master files to define zones<br>
does not mention NS at apex at all, but it does explicitly mention SOA<br>
at apex. Can it be interpreted as if NS at apex is not mandatory?<br>
<br>
Funnily enough<br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1035#section-5.3" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1035#section-5.3</a><b=
r>
has an example which as NS at apex, but it is not clear from the text above=
.<br>
<br>
Is it mandatory or not? Should I submit erratum for RFC 1035?<br>
<br>
Thank you for clarification.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Petr =C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek=C2=A0 @=C2=A0 CZ.NIC<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DNSOP mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DNSOP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">DNSOP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 14:16:02 +0000
From: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
> On Feb 7, 2019, at 7:44 AM, Petr =C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek <petr.spacek@nic.cz> wr=
ote:
> > When looking at it from resolver perspective, what is the resolver
> > supposed to do with query "zone. NS" if there is no authoritative NS se=
t
> > in the zone? Return NOERROR+NODATA?
>
> It should reply with no error and no data.  But this is okay, because
> you never need to ask this question in order to resolve a name.  If you
> are looking up an NS record with intent to use it, it=E2=80=99s going to =
be in
> the parent zone, where you are looking for a delegation.

But in this scenario things soon go wrong, because RFC 2181 says the
NODATA reply replaces the delegation records in the resolver's cache. This
means that if a client explicitly asks for the NS records of a zone that
lacks them, resolution for other records in the zone will subsequently
fail.

Tony.
--=20
f.anthony.n.finch  <dot@dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
Tyne: West, backing south, 5 to 7. Slight or moderate, occasionally rough
later. Showers. Good occasionally moderate.
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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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On Feb 7, 2019, at 9:16 AM, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at> wrote:
> But in this scenario things soon go wrong, because RFC 2181 says the
> NODATA reply replaces the delegation records in the resolver's cache. =
This
> means that if a client explicitly asks for the NS records of a zone =
that
> lacks them, resolution for other records in the zone will subsequently
> fail.

Ah, there you have it.   So then it _is_ required.   Kevin=E2=80=99s =
point also points in that direction.

Is there somewhere in a later spec where this is stated explicitly, =
then?


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Feb 7, 2019, at 9:16 AM, Tony Finch &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dot@dotat.at" =
class=3D"">dot@dotat.at</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">But in this scenario things soon go wrong, because RFC 2181 =
says the</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">NODATA reply =
replaces the delegation records in the resolver's cache. This</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">means that if =
a client explicitly asks for the NS records of a zone that</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">lacks them, =
resolution for other records in the zone will subsequently</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">fail.</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Ah, there you have it. &nbsp; So then it _is_ required. =
&nbsp; Kevin=E2=80=99s point also points in that direction.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Is there somewhere in a =
later spec where this is stated explicitly, then?</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_E5E1B465-2501-4B6C-82B2-2DCAA8BA94CD--


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From: "Peter van Dijk" <peter.van.dijk@powerdns.com>
To: dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2019 15:41:04 +0100
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Call for Adoption: draft-song-atr-large-resp
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On 6 Feb 2019, at 9:08, Mukund Sivaraman wrote:

> Considering that the method is implementable without any changes at a
> resolver, and that it doesn't require compatible behavior among DNS
> implementations ("protocol" or best practice), I suppose it does not
> matter if this draft is adopted or not as long as the idea has been
> described somewhere.

While it can be implemented on an auth without changes to resolvers, 
doing that would severely impact operation of all resolvers.

I think itâ€™s important to repeat that not only do I oppose adoption - 
any implementation, no matter the status of the document, will be 
*actively harmful to the DNS at large*. Please do not implement this.

Kind regards,
-- 
Peter van Dijk
PowerDNS.COM BV - https://www.powerdns.com/


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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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Thank you Kevin and Tony!

We (as developers in our office) all have had gut feeling that NS is
mandatory but we could not find it in the RFCs.

Thank you for your time!
Petr Å paÄek  @  CZ.NIC


On 07. 02. 19 14:53, Kevin Darcy wrote:
> The "apex" terminology didn't come into vogue until later. Prior to
> that, people talked about the "top" of a zone.
> 
> RFC 1034 Section 4.2.1 lays this out:
> 
> "In the data that makes up a zone, NS RRs are found at the top node of
> the zone (and are authoritative)".
> 
> Admittedly "are found" doesn't sound to modern ears (or look to modern
> eyes) like a mandatory requirement. That's another thing that's changed
> over the years: RFC 2026 was yet to be published, which tightened up the
> requirement levels and how to signal them textually. When looking at
> pre-RFC-2026 RFC's, one has to exercise some judgement of whether
> verbiage describing "typical" or "normal" situations is actually
> normative, perhaps even mandatory..
> 
> Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â 
> Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â - Kevin
> 
> On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 7:16 AM Petr Å paÄek <petr.spacek@nic.cz
> <mailto:petr.spacek@nic.cz>> wrote:
> 
>     Hello dnsop,
> 
>     here is a quiz for experienced RFC archeologists:
> 
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1035#section-5.2
>     section 5.2. Use of master files to define zones
>     does not mention NS at apex at all, but it does explicitly mention SOA
>     at apex. Can it be interpreted as if NS at apex is not mandatory?
> 
>     Funnily enough
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1035#section-5.3
>     has an example which as NS at apex, but it is not clear from the
>     text above..
> 
>     Is it mandatory or not? Should I submit erratum for RFC 1035?
> 
>     Thank you for clarification.
> 
>     -- 
>     Petr Å paÄekÂ  @Â  CZ.NIC
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     DNSOP mailing list
>     DNSOP@ietf.org <mailto:DNSOP@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop


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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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On Feb 7, 2019, at 10:06 AM, Petr =C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek <petr.spacek@nic.cz> =
wrote:
> We (as developers in our office) all have had gut feeling that NS is
> mandatory but we could not find it in the RFCs.

I hate to say it, but we should really make sure that this is actually =
stated somewhere where it can reasonably be found.   If it is not, we =
should state it.   Petr was completely sensible to think it was the case =
but not be sure.   Saying that it is the case, and why it is the case, =
would be helpful.   This is something that I hadn=E2=80=99t really =
thought through before Petr asked the question, but I=E2=80=99d been =
wondering about it too because the question comes up in the DNSSD =
Discovery Proxy code I=E2=80=99m working on (I assumed the answer was =
yes).


--Apple-Mail=_BFC4FDE6-2C52-459B-96B5-E62DA2FC35E1
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Feb 7, 2019, at 10:06 AM, Petr =C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:petr.spacek@nic.cz" class=3D"">petr.spacek@nic.cz</a>&gt; =
wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">We (as =
developers in our office) all have had gut feeling that NS is</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">mandatory but =
we could not find it in the RFCs.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">I hate to say it, but we should really make =
sure that this is actually stated somewhere where it can reasonably be =
found. &nbsp; If it is not, we should state it. &nbsp; Petr was =
completely sensible to think it was the case but not be sure. &nbsp; =
Saying that it is the case, and why it is the case, would be helpful. =
&nbsp; This is something that I hadn=E2=80=99t really thought through =
before Petr asked the question, but I=E2=80=99d been wondering about it =
too because the question comes up in the DNSSD Discovery Proxy code =
I=E2=80=99m working on (I assumed the answer was yes).</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-extended-error-04.txt
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On 08. 01. 19 17:30, Wes Hardaker wrote:
> internet-drafts@ietf.org writes:
> 
>>         Title           : Extended DNS Errors
>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-dnsop-extended-error-04.txt
> 
> FYI, updates from 03 to 04 include:
> 
> 1. moving the unsupported algorithm codes to "NOERROR"
> 2. changing the text encoding to UTF-8 (was ASCII)
> 
> The authors know of no more outstanding issues.  Time for LCv2?

Hello and sorry for being late,

first of all I believe this is useful and suppor the work, but still
needs more work *and implementation experience* before going to LC.

Here is couple specific changes to version 04.

--- Minor changes/clarifications ---

> 2.  Extended Error EDNS0 option format
>    o  The RESERVED bits, 15 bits: these bits are reserved for future
>       use, potentially as additional flags.  The RESERVED bits MUST be
>       set to 0 by the sender and SHOULD be ignored by the receiver.
IMHO "SHOULD be ignored" is asking for trouble. We just went through DNS
flag day to clean up implementations which insisted on some fields being
zero. Can we please use this instead?
      set to 0 by the sender and MUST be ignored by the receiver.


> 3.  Use of the Extended DNS Error option
>    The Extended DNS Error (EDE) is an EDNS option.  It can be included
>    in any response (SERVFAIL, NXDOMAIN, REFUSED, etc) to a query that
>    includes an EDNS option.
Why "EDNS option" (at very end of the sentence) and not "OPT Pseudo-RR"?
AFAIK it is perfectly fine to send EDNS0 OPT without any options inside.
Proposed text (only the last line was changed):
   The Extended DNS Error (EDE) is an EDNS option.  It can be included
   in any response (SERVFAIL, NXDOMAIN, REFUSED, etc) to a query that
   includes OPT Pseudo-RR [RFC 6891].


> 3.2.  The RESPONSE-CODE field
>    This 4-bit value SHOULD be a copy of the RCODE from the primary DNS
>    packet.  Multiple EDNS0/EDE records may be included in the response.
>    When including multiple EDNS0/EDE records in a response in order to
>    provide additional error information, other RESPONSE-CODEs MAY use a
>    different RCODE.
This paragraph worries me for multiple reasons:
0) Terminology: EDE is an EDNS option, not record!
a) If I am an implementer, in what cases I might want to go against
"4-bit value SHOULD be a copy of the RCODE"?
b) Terminology: Where is a definition of "primary DNS packet"?
c) When I read this now, many months after the initial draft, I have
trouble understanding logic why we are duplicating RCODE here. There
might be a good reasons but we need to state them explicitly otherwise
it will get ignored (or misunderstood).

Unfortunatelly I have trouble understanding intent behind this
description so I'm not able to draft a better text.


> 4.1.1.  NOERROR Extended DNS Error Code 1 - Unsupported DNSKEY Algorithm
> 
>    The resolver attempted to perform DNSSEC validation, but a DNSKEY
>    RRSET contained only unknown algorithms.  The R flag should be set.
> 
> 4.1.2.  NOERROR Extended DNS Error Code 2 - Unsupported DS Algorithm
> 
>    The resolver attempted to perform DNSSEC validation, but a DS RRSET
>    contained only unknown algorithms.  The R flag should be set.

Why R flag? This is not an error, resolution suceeded, and there is
nothing to retry. I propose change both cases to
"The R flag should not be set."

> 4.2.2.  SERVFAIL Extended DNS Error Code 2 - DNSSEC Indeterminate
> 
>    The resolver attempted to perform DNSSEC validation, but validation
>    ended in the Indeterminate state.  The R flag should not be set.

This should be in NOERROR category.

AFAIK Indeterminate state is not an error, it is most likely a
configuration choice on the resolver. E.g. DNSSEC-validating resolver
running without any trust anchor is in Indeterminate state.



--- New code points ---

I propose to add couple more codes:

+ SERVFAIL Extended DNS Error Code 8 - NSEC Missing
   The resolver attempted to perform DNSSEC validation, but the
   requested data were missing and covering NSEC was not provided.
   RETRY=0

+ SERVFAIL Extended DNS Error Code 9 - Cached Error
   The resolver has cached SERVFAIL for this query.
   RETRY=1
Often the SERVFAIL comes from cache which is unlikely to contain
specific error details, but it is still useful to distinguish "proper"
cached SERVFAIL from other weird errors like running out of file
descriptors etc. Info text could contain remaining TTL ...

+ SERVFAIL Extended DNS Error Code 10 - Server Not Ready
    Server is not up and running (yet). RETRY=1

+ NOTIMP Extended DNS Error Code 1 - Deprecated
Requested operation or query is not supported because it was deprecated.
Retrying request elsewhere is unlikely to yield any other results.
RETRY=0
Intended use:
- OPCODE=IQUERY
- OPCODE=QUERY QTYPE={ANY, RRSIG, MAILA, MAILB} etc.



--- More adventurous proposals ---
a) Two more bits to implement "advice for user" (longer explanation can
be found in archives
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/b3wtVj_aWm24PXyHr1M9NMj3LJ0)

I believe this will make the draft way more useful for everyone and not
just geeks.

Proposed addition to text:

> 2.  Extended Error EDNS0 option format
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
   4: | R | N | F |                  RESERVED                         |
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

   o  The NEAR flag, 1 bit; the NEAR bit (N) indicates a flag defined
      for use in this specification.
   o  The FAR flag, 1 bit; the FAR bit (F) indicates a flag defined
      for use in this specification.

> 3.  Use of the Extended DNS Error option

3.2.  The N (Near) flag   The N (Near) flag indicates that the error
reported is likely caused
   by conditions "near" the sender. Value 1 is a hint for user interface
   that user should contact administrator responsible for local DNS.

   For example, an DNS resolver running on CPE will set N=1 in its
   error responses if it detects that all queries to upstream DNS
   resolver timed out. This likely indicates a link problem and must be
   fixed locally.

   Another example is an DNSSEC-validator which detects that query
   ". IN NS" fails DNSSEC validation because signature is expired
   or not yet valid. This most likely indicates misconfigured system
   time and needs to investigated and fixed locally.


3.3. The F (Far) flag
   The F (Far) flag indicates that the error reported is likely caused
   by conditions on the "far" end, i.e. typically authoritative side or
   upstream forwarder. Value 1 is a hint for user interface to display
   message suggesting user to contact operator of the "far end" because
   it is unlikely that local operator can fix the problem.

   For example, an DNS resolver might set F=1 if all authoritative
   servers for a given domain are lame.



b) Another thing to consider is adding optional TTL value to EDE option.
E.g. there is no point in retrying the query again and again until bogus
response is cached. It is much better to display error message "try
again in 10 seconds, if the problem persists call X" than just "try again".


What do you think?

-- 
Petr Å paÄek  @  CZ.NIC


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From: Bob Harold <rharolde@umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 10:48:19 -0500
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To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Cc: =?UTF-8?B?UGV0ciDFoHBhxI1law==?= <petr.spacek@nic.cz>,  Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>, IETF DNSOP WG <dnsop@ietf.org>, Kevin Darcy <kevin.darcy@fcagroup.com>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 10:35 AM Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:

> On Feb 7, 2019, at 10:06 AM, Petr =C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek <petr.spacek@nic.cz> w=
rote:
>
> We (as developers in our office) all have had gut feeling that NS is
> mandatory but we could not find it in the RFCs.
>
>
> I hate to say it, but we should really make sure that this is actually
> stated somewhere where it can reasonably be found.   If it is not, we
> should state it.   Petr was completely sensible to think it was the case
> but not be sure.   Saying that it is the case, and why it is the case,
> would be helpful.   This is something that I hadn=E2=80=99t really though=
t through
> before Petr asked the question, but I=E2=80=99d been wondering about it t=
oo because
> the question comes up in the DNSSD Discovery Proxy code I=E2=80=99m worki=
ng on (I
> assumed the answer was yes).
>

If we write it down, perhaps we should also mention that other things that
answer DNS queries, like load balancers, should also return proper SOA and
NS records, not just A and AAAA records,  for the same reasons.

--=20
Bob Harold

--00000000000027bbac05814fc63c
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 10:35 AM Ted Lemon=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com">mellon@fugue.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"over=
flow-wrap: break-word;">On Feb 7, 2019, at 10:06 AM, Petr =C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:petr.spacek@nic.cz" target=3D"_blank">petr.spacek@nic=
.cz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:norm=
al;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0p=
x;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:n=
one;float:none;display:inline">We (as developers in our office) all have ha=
d gut feeling that NS is</span><br style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-=
size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style=3D"font-=
family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:nor=
mal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0=
px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:=
none;float:none;display:inline">mandatory but we could not find it in the R=
FCs.</span><br style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:14px;font-style=
:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;t=
ext-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word=
-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"></div></blockquote></div><br><div>I hate=
 to say it, but we should really make sure that this is actually stated som=
ewhere where it can reasonably be found. =C2=A0 If it is not, we should sta=
te it. =C2=A0 Petr was completely sensible to think it was the case but not=
 be sure. =C2=A0 Saying that it is the case, and why it is the case, would =
be helpful. =C2=A0 This is something that I hadn=E2=80=99t really thought t=
hrough before Petr asked the question, but I=E2=80=99d been wondering about=
 it too because the question comes up in the DNSSD Discovery Proxy code I=
=E2=80=99m working on (I assumed the answer was yes).</div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>If we write it down, perhaps we should also mention =
that other things that answer DNS queries, like load balancers, should also=
 return proper SOA and NS records, not just A and AAAA records,=C2=A0 for t=
he same reasons.</div><div><br></div><div>--=C2=A0</div><div>Bob Harold</di=
v><div><br></div></div></div>

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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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On Feb 7, 2019, at 10:48 AM, Bob Harold <rharolde@umich.edu> wrote:
> If we write it down, perhaps we should also mention that other things =
that answer DNS queries, like load balancers, should also return proper =
SOA and NS records, not just A and AAAA records,  for the same reasons.

Are they currently returning no error/no data?



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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Feb 7, 2019, at 10:48 AM, Bob Harold &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rharolde@umich.edu" class=3D"">rharolde@umich.edu</a>&gt; =
wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">If we =
write it down, perhaps we should also mention that other things that =
answer DNS queries, like load balancers, should also return proper SOA =
and NS records, not just A and AAAA records,&nbsp; for the same =
reasons.</div></div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div>Are they =
currently returning no error/no data?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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On Thu, Feb 07, 2019 at 09:40:24AM -0500, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Feb 7, 2019, at 9:16 AM, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at> wrote:
> > But in this scenario things soon go wrong, because RFC 2181 says the
> > NODATA reply replaces the delegation records in the resolver's cache. This
> > means that if a client explicitly asks for the NS records of a zone that
> > lacks them, resolution for other records in the zone will subsequently
> > fail.
> 
> Ah, there you have it.  So then it _is_ required.  Kevinâ€™s point also
> points in that direction.
> 
> Is there somewhere in a later spec where this is stated explicitly, then?

Though RFC 1034/1035 are a point for DNS that obsoleted some preceding
RFCs and other documentation and they are quite comprehensive, there are
things that they have missed. Something that comes to mind is the
definition of hostnames. Remember that DNS evolved to RFC 1034/1035. It
didn't begin there, so if something is not clear, there are documents
preceding it which may be obsolete but can contain useful information
and justification.

For this topic of NS at apex, there is some mention of it in RFC 883:

      Note that there is one special case that requires consideration
      when a name server is implemented.  A node that contains a SOA RR
      denoting a start of zone will also have NS records that identify
      the name servers that are expected to have a copy of the zone.

(The word "will" cannot be strictly assumed to have RFC 2119 meaning,
 but it's clear that it's expected.)

There's mention of it in RFC 882 where it says an NS record is necessary
because an authority for the zone is expected to answer for a query for
NS information of the zone.

If all else fails in explaining something, there's also the old saying -
"Do what BIND does". :-)

		Mukund


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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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On 07. 02. 19 16:48, Bob Harold wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 10:35 AM Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com
> <mailto:mellon@fugue.com>> wrote:
> 
>     On Feb 7, 2019, at 10:06 AM, Petr Å paÄek <petr.spacek@nic.cz
>     <mailto:petr.spacek@nic.cz>> wrote:
>>     We (as developers in our office) all have had gut feeling that NS is
>>     mandatory but we could not find it in the RFCs.
> 
>     I hate to say it, but we should really make sure that this is
>     actually stated somewhere where it can reasonably be found. Â  If it
>     is not, we should state it. Â  Petr was completely sensible to think
>     it was the case but not be sure. Â  Saying that it is the case, and
>     why it is the case, would be helpful. Â  This is something that I
>     hadnâ€™t really thought through before Petr asked the question, but
>     Iâ€™d been wondering about it too because the question comes up in the
>     DNSSD Discovery Proxy code Iâ€™m working on (I assumed the answer was
>     yes).
> 
> 
> If we write it down, perhaps we should also mention that other things
> that answer DNS queries, like load balancers, should also return proper
> SOA and NS records, not just A and AAAA records,Â  for the same reasons.

Let's start with this:


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC1035 (5626)
Date: Thu,  7 Feb 2019 08:04:27 -0800 (PST)
From: RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
To: iesg@ietf.org
CC: petr.spacek@nic.cz, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org

The following errata report has been submitted for RFC1035,
"Domain names - implementation and specification".

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5626

--------------------------------------
Type: Technical
Reported by: Petr Å paÄek <petr.spacek@nic.cz>

Section: 5.2.

Original Text
-------------
Several other validity checks that should be performed in addition to
insuring that the file is syntactically correct:

   1. All RRs in the file should have the same class.

   2. Exactly one SOA RR should be present at the top of the zone.

   3. If delegations are present and glue information is required,
      it should be present.

   4. Information present outside of the authoritative nodes in the
      zone should be glue information, rather than the result of an
      origin or similar error.

Corrected Text
--------------
Several other validity checks that should be performed in addition to
insuring that the file is syntactically correct:

   1. All RRs in the file should have the same class.

   2. Exactly one SOA RR should be present at the top of the zone.

   3. If delegations are present and glue information is required,
      it should be present.

   4. Information present outside of the authoritative nodes in the
      zone should be glue information, rather than the result of an
      origin or similar error.

   5. At least one NS RR must be present at the top of the zone.

Notes
-----
RFC 1034 Section 4.2.1 vaguely specifies that NS RRs are expected to be
found at zone apex but it is missing in the original algorithm above.
This erratum adds explicit requirement for NS RR at zone apex.

Even more importantly this expectation was built into subsequent RFCs,
e.g. RFC 2181 which would break if NS was present only in the parent
zone but not in the child zone.

References to dnsop mailing list:
- https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/ipwko314FenUxrdzMl5vcick9wQ
- https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/JAS6TREsOh-b2J4rEAND6cds0Og

Instructions:
-------------
This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party  can log in to
change the status and edit the report, if necessary.
--------------------------------------
RFC1035 (no draft string recorded)
--------------------------------------
Title               : Domain names - implementation and specification
Publication Date    : November 1987
Author(s)           : P.V. Mockapetris
Category            : INTERNET STANDARD
Source              : Legacy
Area                : Legacy
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG

-- 
Petr Å paÄek  @  CZ.NIC


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Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 21:36:52 +0530
From: Mukund Sivaraman <muks@mukund.org>
To: Petr =?utf-8?B?xaBwYcSNZWs=?= <petr.spacek@nic.cz>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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On Thu, Feb 07, 2019 at 01:16:01PM +0100, Petr Å paÄek wrote:
> Is it mandatory or not? Should I submit erratum for RFC 1035?

Please do so. If something that's widely accepted is not clearly stated,
documenting it would be helpful both to implementors and also to point
as reference when checking for correctness.

		Mukund


From nobody Thu Feb  7 08:08:40 2019
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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On Feb 7, 2019, at 11:05 AM, Marius Olafsson <marius@hi.is> wrote:
> "The authoritative servers for a zone are enumerated in the NS records
>   for the origin of the zone, which, along with a Start of Authority
>   (SOA) record are the mandatory records in every zone."

Problem solved.   :)


--Apple-Mail=_A5BB2C82-8E6A-48DB-B2B1-D13AA6EF69C8
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Feb 7, 2019, at 11:05 AM, Marius Olafsson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:marius@hi.is" class=3D"">marius@hi.is</a>&gt; =
wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">"The =
authoritative servers for a zone are enumerated in the NS =
records</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;for=
 the origin of the zone, which, along with a Start of =
Authority</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;(SOA) record are the mandatory records in every =
zone."</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Problem solved. &nbsp; :)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From marius@ok.rhi.hi.is  Thu Feb  7 08:05:19 2019
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From: Marius Olafsson <marius@hi.is>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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> I hate to say it, but we should really make sure that this is actually stated somewhere where it can reasonably be found.   If it is not, we should state it.   Petr was completely sensible to think it was the case but not be sure.   Saying that it is the case, and why it is the case, would be helpful.   This is something that I hadn???t really thought through before Petr asked the question, but I???d been wondering about it too because the question comes up in the DNSSD Discovery Proxy code I???m working on (I assumed the answer was yes).

How about RFC2181 section 6.1

"The authoritative servers for a zone are enumerated in the NS records
   for the origin of the zone, which, along with a Start of Authority
   (SOA) record are the mandatory records in every zone."

--
Marius Olafsson
University of Iceland


From nobody Thu Feb  7 08:12:25 2019
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From: "Peter van Dijk" <peter.van.dijk@powerdns.com>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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On 7 Feb 2019, at 16:55, Ted Lemon wrote:

> On Feb 7, 2019, at 10:48 AM, Bob Harold <rharolde@umich.edu> wrote:
>> If we write it down, perhaps we should also mention that other things 
>> that answer DNS queries, like load balancers, should also return 
>> proper SOA and NS records, not just A and AAAA records,  for the same 
>> reasons.
>
> Are they currently returning no error/no data?

Yes, many do. Others do not respond at all (i.e., timeout).

Case in point: https://github.com/dns-violations/dnsflagday/issues/73

Kind regards,
-- 
Peter van Dijk
PowerDNS.COM BV - https://www.powerdns.com/


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From: Alexander Mayrhofer <alexander.mayrhofer@nic.at>
To: "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf vs. RFC7553
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Subject: [DNSOP] draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf vs. RFC7553
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Hello everyone,

I'm turning my head around an issue around the attrleaf draft, and its conn=
ection with RFC7553 (the URI RRType). Im specifically wondering what the co=
nnection between the "service parameter" in RFC 7553 and the "Global Unders=
core Node Names" in draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf is.  I'm trying to reword dra=
ft-mayrhofer-dns-did to request a new underscore node name. My issues is as=
 follows:

RFC 7553 restricts the  "service parameters" (those underscored names) as f=
ollows:


   Valid service

   parameters are those registered by IANA in the "Service Name and

   Transport Protocol Port Number Registry" [RFC6335<https://tools.ietf.org=
/html/rfc6335>] or as "Enumservice

   Registrations [RFC6117<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6117>].

However, I understand the intent of draft-ietf-attrleaf (as far as I unders=
tand) is to replace/extend that definition by a new registry, and does inde=
ed include underscore node names for the URI RRType in Section 4.3. However=
, I'm wondering whether that formally "overrides" the previous specificatio=
n.. So, my questions are:


A)      Would it be enough to request a global underscore node name to use =
it with the URI RRType

B)      And shouldn't draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf hence UPDATE RFC7553?

(I know the draft is already *very* well advanced in the process, so I'm op=
ening a can of worms here - but better late than never? And there are defin=
itely more future use cases for URI records that might be well covered by t=
he attrleaf document..)

Comments appreciated!

Best,
Alex


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello everyone,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I&#8217;m turning my head aroun=
d an issue around the attrleaf draft, and its connection with RFC7553 (the =
URI RRType). Im specifically wondering what the connection between the &#82=
20;service parameter&#8221; in RFC 7553 and the &#8220;Global
 Underscore Node Names&#8221; in draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf is. &nbsp;I&#821=
7;m trying to reword draft-mayrhofer-dns-did to request a new underscore no=
de name. My issues is as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">RFC 7553 restricts the &nbsp;&#=
8220;service parameters&#8221; (those underscored names) as follows:<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span style=3D"color:black">Valid se=
rvice<o:p></o:p></span></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; parameters are=
 those registered by IANA in the &quot;Service Name and<o:p></o:p></span></=
pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; Transport Prot=
ocol Port Number Registry&quot; [</span><span style=3D"color:black"><a href=
=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6335" title=3D"&quot;Internet Assigned N=
umbers Authority (IANA) Procedures for the Management of the Service Name a=
nd Transport Protocol Port Number Registry&quot;"><span lang=3D"EN-US">RFC6=
335</span></a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">] or as &qu=
ot;Enumservice<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black">Registrations [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
rfc6117" title=3D"&quot;IANA Registration of Enumservices: Guide, Template,=
 and IANA Considerations&quot;">RFC6117</a>].<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">However, I understand the inten=
t of draft-ietf-attrleaf (as far as I understand) is to replace/extend that=
 definition by a new registry, and does indeed include underscore node name=
s for the URI RRType in Section 4.3.
 However, I&#8217;m wondering whether that formally &#8220;overrides&#8221;=
 the previous specification.. So, my questions are:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-list:=
Ignore">A)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US">Would it be enough to r=
equest a global underscore node name to use it with the URI RRType<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-list:=
Ignore">B)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US">And shouldn&#8217;t dra=
ft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf hence UPDATE RFC7553?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">(I know the draft is already *<=
b>very</b>* well advanced in the process, so I&#8217;m opening a can of wor=
ms here &#8211; but better late than never? And there are definitely more f=
uture use cases for URI records that might be well
 covered by the attrleaf document..)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Comments appreciated!<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Alex<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From nobody Thu Feb  7 08:59:54 2019
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Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 16:59:46 +0000
From: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Petr_=C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek?= <petr.spacek@nic.cz>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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Petr =C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek <petr.spacek@nic.cz> wrote:
>
> We (as developers in our office) all have had gut feeling that NS is
> mandatory but we could not find it in the RFCs.

There's this bit in RFC 1034 which discusses zone cuts and says the NS
RRset above and below the cut should be exactly the same. DNS admins are
generally too relaxed about allowing them to become inconsistent.

: The RRs that describe cuts around the bottom of the zone are NS RRs that
: name the servers for the subzones.  Since the cuts are between nodes,
: these RRs are NOT part of the authoritative data of the zone, and should
: be exactly the same as the corresponding RRs in the top node of the
: subzone.  Since name servers are always associated with zone boundaries,
: NS RRs are only found at nodes which are the top node of some zone.  In
: the data that makes up a zone, NS RRs are found at the top node of the
: zone (and are authoritative) and at cuts around the bottom of the zone
: (where they are not authoritative), but never in between.

See also RFC 1912 section 2.8:

   Make sure your parent domain has the same NS records for your zone as
   you do.

Tony.
--=20
f.anthony.n.finch  <dot@dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
Dogger: West, backing southwest, 6 to gale 8. Moderate or rough, occasional=
ly
very rough. Occasional rain. Good occasionally poor.
--1870870841-2075598731-1549558705=:18720--


From nobody Thu Feb  7 09:29:27 2019
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To: Peter van Dijk <peter.van.dijk@powerdns.com>
Cc: dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
References: <BCACF554-8BE6-49BC-B75A-BCED776F5189@NLnetLabs.nl> <20190206080832.GA14062@jurassic.lan.banu.com> <3B046CC4-B67E-4960-9950-527169060AFD@powerdns.com>
From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Call for Adoption: draft-song-atr-large-resp
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Peter van Dijk wrote on 2019-02-07 06:41:
> ...
> 
> I think itâ€™s important to repeat that not only do I oppose adoption - 
> any implementation, no matter the status of the document, will be 
> *actively harmful to the DNS at large*. Please do not implement this.

to be fair, the harm in terms of icmp noise would be to the whole 
internet, not just to the dns.

-- 
P Vixie


From nobody Thu Feb  7 11:09:36 2019
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Call for Adoption: draft-song-atr-large-resp
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Hi Peter

On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 11:22:00AM +0100, Peter van Dijk wrote:
> The draft doubles the number of packets involved in a legitimate
> exchange; it more than doubles the number of packets involved in a
> spoofed exchange. About half of these packets are ICMP
> packets. Without the draft, ICMP packets are useful debugging aids,
> and in big numbers, indications of attacks or operational
> problems. With the draft, ICMP becomes another useless source of
> background noise.

I had implemented the draft about a year ago as a server-side patch for
BIND so that it could be tried/tested. But I was not aware of the ICMP
issue that you mentioned. Today I looked at a packet capture with ATR
response and sure enough, the 2nd truncated response generates an ICMP
message from the recipient. I agree that this would be noisy.

		Mukund


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From: "John Levine" <johnl@taugh.com>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf vs. RFC7553
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In article <19F54F2956911544A32543B8A9BDE0759FBCD40B@NICS-EXCH2.sbg.nic.at> you write:
>I'm turning my head around an issue around the attrleaf draft, and its connection with RFC7553 (the URI
>RRType). Im specifically wondering what the connection between the "service parameter" in RFC 7553 and the
>"Global Underscore Node Names" in draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf is. 

Dave moved the duct tape patching up all the places that defined
underscored names to draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf-fix.

See sections 2.3 and 2.3 for URI records.

It's still a draft so if it seems wrong, send text.

R's,
John

Linguistic note: people from the antipodes should read "duct tape"
as "number 8 wire"





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References: <BCACF554-8BE6-49BC-B75A-BCED776F5189@NLnetLabs.nl> <4A75C4E3-F74F-46DB-9A8A-879C0BB79190@powerdns.com> <20190207190927.GA30071@jurassic.lan.banu.com>
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From: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= <jinmei@wide.ad.jp>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 11:39:30 -0800
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To: Mukund Sivaraman <muks@mukund.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Call for Adoption: draft-song-atr-large-resp
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--000000000000fa8504058153003e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

At Fri, 8 Feb 2019 00:39:27 +0530,
Mukund Sivaraman <muks@mukund.org> wrote:

> > The draft doubles the number of packets involved in a legitimate
> > exchange; it more than doubles the number of packets involved in a
> > spoofed exchange. About half of these packets are ICMP
> > packets. Without the draft, ICMP packets are useful debugging aids,
> > and in big numbers, indications of attacks or operational
> > problems. With the draft, ICMP becomes another useless source of
> > background noise.
>
> I had implemented the draft about a year ago as a server-side patch for
> BIND so that it could be tried/tested. But I was not aware of the ICMP
> issue that you mentioned. Today I looked at a packet capture with ATR
> response and sure enough, the 2nd truncated response generates an ICMP
> message from the recipient. I agree that this would be noisy.

Probably off topic in the context of the adoption call, but I'd note
that it depends on some implementation details of the resolver.  ICMP
port unreachable errors will be likely to be increased if the resolver
closes the UDP socket for a query with an authoritative server
immediately after it receives a return packet.  BIND behaves that way
by default, so did PowerDNS recursor when I checked the implementation
many years ago (it probably still does).  But not all resolver
implementations adopt this practice; if I understand it correctly
Unbound uses a pool of (many) UDP sockets and reuse the same socket
for multiple queries.  I've not tested it myself but I believe you
won't see an increase of ICMP errors with such resolver
implementations.

--
JINMEI, Tatuya

--000000000000fa8504058153003e
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">At Fri, 8 Feb 2019 00:39:27 +0530,<br>Muk=
und Sivaraman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:muks@mukund.org">muks@mukund.org</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br><br>&gt; &gt; The draft doubles the number of packets involved =
in a legitimate<br>&gt; &gt; exchange; it more than doubles the number of p=
ackets involved in a<br>&gt; &gt; spoofed exchange. About half of these pac=
kets are ICMP<br>&gt; &gt; packets. Without the draft, ICMP packets are use=
ful debugging aids,<br>&gt; &gt; and in big numbers, indications of attacks=
 or operational<br>&gt; &gt; problems. With the draft, ICMP becomes another=
 useless source of<br>&gt; &gt; background noise.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; I had im=
plemented the draft about a year ago as a server-side patch for<br>&gt; BIN=
D so that it could be tried/tested. But I was not aware of the ICMP<br>&gt;=
 issue that you mentioned. Today I looked at a packet capture with ATR<br>&=
gt; response and sure enough, the 2nd truncated response generates an ICMP<=
br>&gt; message from the recipient. I agree that this would be noisy.<br><b=
r>Probably off topic in the context of the adoption call, but I&#39;d note<=
br>that it depends on some implementation details of the resolver.=C2=A0 IC=
MP<br>port unreachable errors will be likely to be increased if the resolve=
r<br>closes the UDP socket for a query with an authoritative server<br>imme=
diately after it receives a return packet.=C2=A0 BIND behaves that way<br>b=
y default, so did PowerDNS recursor when I checked the implementation<br>ma=
ny years ago (it probably still does).=C2=A0 But not all resolver<br>implem=
entations adopt this practice; if I understand it correctly<br>Unbound uses=
 a pool of (many) UDP sockets and reuse the same socket<br>for multiple que=
ries.=C2=A0 I&#39;ve not tested it myself but I believe you<br>won&#39;t se=
e an increase of ICMP errors with such resolver<br>implementations.<br><br>=
--<br>JINMEI, Tatuya<br></div></div>

--000000000000fa8504058153003e--


From nobody Thu Feb  7 13:44:53 2019
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From: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@icann.org>
To: John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
CC: "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>, "alexander.mayrhofer@nic.at" <alexander.mayrhofer@nic.at>
Thread-Topic: [Ext] [DNSOP] draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf vs. RFC7553
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [Ext]  draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf vs. RFC7553
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On Feb 7, 2019, at 11:29 AM, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>=20
> In article <19F54F2956911544A32543B8A9BDE0759FBCD40B@NICS-EXCH2.sbg.nic.a=
t> you write:
>> I'm turning my head around an issue around the attrleaf draft, and its c=
onnection with RFC7553 (the URI
>> RRType). Im specifically wondering what the connection between the "serv=
ice parameter" in RFC 7553 and the
>> "Global Underscore Node Names" in draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf is.=20
>=20
> Dave moved the duct tape patching up all the places that defined
> underscored names to draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf-fix.
>=20
> See sections 2.3 and 2.3 for URI records.
>=20
> It's still a draft so if it seems wrong, send text.

It is a draft, but it is has been in the RFC Editor's queue for 2.5 months.=
 Unless there is a technical problem, fixing it now (without WG review) cou=
ld cause more harm than benefit.

--Paul=


From nobody Thu Feb  7 14:06:24 2019
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Date: 7 Feb 2019 17:06:17 -0500
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From: "John R Levine" <johnl@taugh.com>
To: "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@icann.org>
Cc: "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [Ext]  draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf vs. RFC7553
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>> Dave moved the duct tape patching up all the places that defined
>> underscored names to draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf-fix.
>>
>> See sections 2.3 and 2.3 for URI records.
>>
>> It's still a draft so if it seems wrong, send text.
>
> It is a draft, but it is has been in the RFC Editor's queue for 2.5 months. Unless there is a technical problem, fixing it now (without WG review) could cause more harm than benefit.

Oh, definitely.  When I said wrong I meant like it doesn't work, not that 
a sentence could be reworded.

Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly


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From: Masataka Ohta <mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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Petr Spacek wrote:

> Subject: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC1035 (5626)

I don't think errata is necessary.

>     5. At least one NS RR must be present at the top of the zone.

At least two.

						Masataka Ohta


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From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 18:36:48 -0500
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To: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
Cc: =?UTF-8?B?UGV0ciDFoHBhxI1law==?= <petr.spacek@nic.cz>,  dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, Kevin Darcy <kevin.darcy@fcagroup.com>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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[ Top-post ]

So, I've been staring at the Errata which Petr submitted, and trying to
work out what to do.

I'd like to mark it as either Verified, but the errata process cannot be
used for fixing issues with the protocol itself, or adding additional
restrictions which may cause compatibility issues (otherwise we wouldn't be
able to have the fun of -bis documents :-)) -- so, what I'm trying to
figure out is if this was something where the was consensus  *when RFC1035
was published* (and just missed when writing the list), or if it is a
new(er) restriction.

I agree that it should be checked, but I really want to be able to point at
something in 1034 / 1035 which says this.
Tony's below is close, but not quite there yet - it says they should be the
same, but not that it is an error in the zone file (the section is "5.2.
Use of master files to define zones") if they are not. So, can y'all help
me find evidence *from this timeframe* that shows that this was viewed as
true at that time?

Otherwise, I should be able to make it "Hold for Document Update":
"Changes that modify the working of a protocol to something that might be
different from the intended consensus when the document was approved should
be either Hold for Document Update or Rejected. Deciding between these two
depends on judgment. Changes that are clearly modifications to the intended
consensus, or involve large textual changes, should be Rejected. In unclear
situations, small changes can be Hold for Document Update. "

W



On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 12:00 PM Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at> wrote:

> Petr =C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek <petr.spacek@nic.cz> wrote:
> >
> > We (as developers in our office) all have had gut feeling that NS is
> > mandatory but we could not find it in the RFCs.
>
> There's this bit in RFC 1034 which discusses zone cuts and says the NS
> RRset above and below the cut should be exactly the same. DNS admins are
> generally too relaxed about allowing them to become inconsistent.
>
> : The RRs that describe cuts around the bottom of the zone are NS RRs tha=
t
> : name the servers for the subzones.  Since the cuts are between nodes,
> : these RRs are NOT part of the authoritative data of the zone, and shoul=
d
> : be exactly the same as the corresponding RRs in the top node of the
> : subzone.  Since name servers are always associated with zone boundaries=
,
> : NS RRs are only found at nodes which are the top node of some zone.  In
> : the data that makes up a zone, NS RRs are found at the top node of the
> : zone (and are authoritative) and at cuts around the bottom of the zone
> : (where they are not authoritative), but never in between.
>
> See also RFC 1912 section 2.8:
>
>    Make sure your parent domain has the same NS records for your zone as
>    you do.
>
> Tony.
> --
> f.anthony.n.finch  <dot@dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
> Dogger: West, backing southwest, 6 to gale 8. Moderate or rough,
> occasionally
> very rough. Occasional rain. Good occasionally
> poor._______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>


--=20
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in
the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of
pants.
   ---maf

--0000000000002525490581565386
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">[ Top-post ]=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"=
><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-s=
erif">So, I&#39;ve been staring at the Errata which Petr submitted, and try=
ing to work out what to do.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I&#39;d like to mark it as either =
Verified, but the errata process cannot be used for fixing issues with the =
protocol itself, or adding additional restrictions which may cause compatib=
ility issues (otherwise we wouldn&#39;t be able to have the fun of -bis doc=
uments :-)) -- so, what I&#39;m trying to figure out is if this was somethi=
ng where the was consensus=C2=A0 *when RFC1035 was published* (and just mis=
sed when writing the list), or if it is a new(er) restriction.=C2=A0</div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I=
 agree that it should be checked, but I really want to be able to point at =
something in 1034 / 1035 which says this.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Tony&#39;s below is close, =
but not quite there yet - it says they should be the same, but not that it =
is an error in the zone file (the section is &quot;5.2. Use of master files=
 to define zones&quot;) if they are not. So, can y&#39;all help me find evi=
dence *from this timeframe* that shows that this was viewed as true at that=
 time?</div><div><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana=
,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f=
ont-family:verdana,sans-serif">Otherwise, I should be able to make it &quot=
;Hold for Document Update&quot;:</span></div><div><span class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">&quot;Changes that modify the=
 working of a protocol to something that might be different from the intend=
ed consensus when the document was approved should be either Hold for Docum=
ent Update or Rejected. Deciding between these two depends on judgment. Cha=
nges that are clearly modifications to the intended consensus, or involve l=
arge textual changes, should be Rejected. In unclear situations, small chan=
ges can be Hold for Document Update. &quot;</span></div><div><span class=3D=
"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></span></div><=
div><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">=
W</span></div><div><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verda=
na,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 1=
2:00 PM Tony Finch &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dot@dotat.at">dot@dotat.at</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Petr =C5=
=A0pa=C4=8Dek &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:petr.spacek@nic.cz" target=3D"_blank">p=
etr.spacek@nic.cz</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; We (as developers in our office) all have had gut feeling that NS is<b=
r>
&gt; mandatory but we could not find it in the RFCs.<br>
<br>
There&#39;s this bit in RFC 1034 which discusses zone cuts and says the NS<=
br>
RRset above and below the cut should be exactly the same. DNS admins are<br=
>
generally too relaxed about allowing them to become inconsistent.<br>
<br>
: The RRs that describe cuts around the bottom of the zone are NS RRs that<=
br>
: name the servers for the subzones.=C2=A0 Since the cuts are between nodes=
,<br>
: these RRs are NOT part of the authoritative data of the zone, and should<=
br>
: be exactly the same as the corresponding RRs in the top node of the<br>
: subzone.=C2=A0 Since name servers are always associated with zone boundar=
ies,<br>
: NS RRs are only found at nodes which are the top node of some zone.=C2=A0=
 In<br>
: the data that makes up a zone, NS RRs are found at the top node of the<br=
>
: zone (and are authoritative) and at cuts around the bottom of the zone<br=
>
: (where they are not authoritative), but never in between.<br>
<br>
See also RFC 1912 section 2.8:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Make sure your parent domain has the same NS records for your =
zone as<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0you do.<br>
<br>
Tony.<br>
-- <br>
f.anthony.n.finch=C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dot@dotat.at" target=3D"_blan=
k">dot@dotat.at</a>&gt;=C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://dotat.at/" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">http://dotat.at/</a><br>
Dogger: West, backing southwest, 6 to gale 8. Moderate or rough, occasional=
ly<br>
very rough. Occasional rain. Good occasionally poor._______________________=
________________________<br>
DNSOP mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DNSOP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">DNSOP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature">I don&#39;t think the execution is relevant when=
 it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.<br>This is like putting ra=
bid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen tho=
se particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf<=
/div></div></div></div>

--0000000000002525490581565386--


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To: Masataka Ohta <mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/23fyFyAcSMdTZU_Vr8NvBqGaq4U>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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> On 8 Feb 2019, at 10:28 am, Masataka Ohta =
<mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> wrote:
>=20
> Petr Spacek wrote:
>=20
>> Subject: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC1035 (5626)
>=20
> I don't think errata is necessary.

Neither do I.

>>    5. At least one NS RR must be present at the top of the zone.
>=20
> At least two.

And address records for the name servers at top of zone MUST exist.=20
if the names are in zone.  Similarly GLUE records must exist for
delegating NS records if they are below bottom of zone.  There
are a whole heap of checks that can be performed when you load
a zone.

That list was clearly not intended to be exhaustive.  Constructing
and getting consensus over a exhaustive list is likely to take
months.

Mark

> 						Masataka Ohta
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop

--=20
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742              INTERNET: marka@isc.org


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Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Petr_=C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek?= <petr.spacek@nic.cz>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, Kevin Darcy <kevin.darcy@fcagroup.com>
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> On 7 Feb 2019, at 23:36, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> wrote:
>=20
> I agree that it should be checked, but I really want to be able to point a=
t something in 1034 / 1035 which says this.=20
> Tony's below is close, but not quite there yet - it says they should be th=
e same, but not that it is an error in the zone file (the section is "5.2. U=
se of master files to define zones") if they are not. So, can y'all help me f=
ind evidence *from this timeframe* that shows that this was viewed as true a=
t that time?
>=20

RFC 1033:

> NS records for a domain exist in both the zone that delegates the domain, a=
nd in the domain itself.=20


This says they can=E2=80=99t be missing from the domain itself.

Tony.
--=20
f.anthony.n.finch  <dot@dotat.at>  http://dotat.at


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><br><div dir=3D"ltr">On 7 Feb 2019, at 23:3=
6, Warren Kumari &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:warren@kumari.net">warren@kumari.net<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I agree that it shoul=
d be checked, but I really want to be able to point at something in 1034 / 1=
035 which says this.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-f=
amily:verdana,sans-serif">Tony's below is close, but not quite there yet - i=
t says they should be the same, but not that it is an error in the zone file=
 (the section is "5.2. Use of master files to define zones") if they are not=
. So, can y'all help me find evidence *from this timeframe* that shows that t=
his was viewed as true at that time?</div><div><span class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></span></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>RFC 1033:</div><div><br></div>=
<div><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; br=
eak-before: page;"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyle=
Body"><span style=3D"white-space: normal; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 2=
55, 0);">

   NS records for a domain exist in both the zone that delegates the
   domain, and in the domain itself.
</span></font><span style=3D"font-size: 1em; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;=
">
</span></blockquote></pre></div><div><br></div><div>This says they can=E2=80=
=99t be missing from the domain itself.</div><div><span style=3D"background-=
color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"b=
ackground-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Tony.</span><div><span style=3D"ba=
ckground-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">--&nbsp;</span></div><div><span sty=
le=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">f.anthony.n.finch &nbsp;&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:dot@dotat.at">dot@dotat.at</a>&gt; &nbsp;<a href=3D"http:=
//dotat.at">http://dotat.at</a></span></div><div><br></div></div></div></bod=
y></html>=

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From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 20:09:12 -0500
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To: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
Cc: Masataka Ohta <mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 6:42 PM Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:

>
>
> > On 8 Feb 2019, at 10:28 am, Masataka Ohta <
> mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> wrote:
> >
> > Petr Spacek wrote:
> >
> >> Subject: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC1035 (5626)
> >
> > I don't think errata is necessary.
>
> Neither do I.
>
> >>    5. At least one NS RR must be present at the top of the zone.
> >
> > At least two.
>
> And address records for the name servers at top of zone MUST exist.
> if the names are in zone.  Similarly GLUE records must exist for
> delegating NS records if they are below bottom of zone.  There
> are a whole heap of checks that can be performed when you load
> a zone.
>
> That list was clearly not intended to be exhaustive.  Constructing
> and getting consensus over a exhaustive list is likely to take
> months.
>

Ok, fair.
I'll do "Hold for Document Update":
"Hold for Document Update - The erratum is not a necessary update to the
RFC. However, any future update of the document might consider this
erratum, and determine whether it is correct and merits including in the
update. "

If people read the errata they will see it listed.
W



>
> Mark
>
> >                                               Masataka Ohta
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > DNSOP mailing list
> > DNSOP@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>
> --
> Mark Andrews, ISC
> 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
> PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742              INTERNET: marka@isc.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>


-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in
the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of
pants.
   ---maf

--0000000000008be4e00581579db5
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div></div><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 7, 2019=
 at 6:42 PM Mark Andrews &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marka@isc.org">marka@isc.org=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
<br>
<br>
&gt; On 8 Feb 2019, at 10:28 am, Masataka Ohta &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohta@=
necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp" target=3D"_blank">mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac=
.jp</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Petr Spacek wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Subject: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC1035 (5626)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I don&#39;t think errata is necessary.<br>
<br>
Neither do I.<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 5. At least one NS RR must be present at the top of t=
he zone.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; At least two.<br>
<br>
And address records for the name servers at top of zone MUST exist. <br>
if the names are in zone.=C2=A0 Similarly GLUE records must exist for<br>
delegating NS records if they are below bottom of zone.=C2=A0 There<br>
are a whole heap of checks that can be performed when you load<br>
a zone.<br>
<br>
That list was clearly not intended to be exhaustive.=C2=A0 Constructing<br>
and getting consensus over a exhaustive list is likely to take<br>
months.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Ok, fair.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I&#39;ll do &quot;Ho=
ld for Document Update&quot;:</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:verdana,sans-serif">&quot;Hold for Document Update - The erratum =
is not a necessary update to the RFC. However, any future update of the doc=
ument might consider this erratum, and determine whether it is correct and =
merits including in the update. &quot;</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">If people read the errata they =
will see it listed.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-f=
amily:verdana,sans-serif">W</div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Mark<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Masataka Ohta<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; DNSOP mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:DNSOP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">DNSOP@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</a><br>
<br>
-- <br>
Mark Andrews, ISC<br>
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia<br>
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 INTE=
RNET: <a href=3D"mailto:marka@isc.org" target=3D"_blank">marka@isc.org</a><=
br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DNSOP mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DNSOP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">DNSOP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature">I don&#39;t think the execution is relevant when=
 it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.<br>This is like putting ra=
bid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen tho=
se particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf<=
/div></div></div>

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From: Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
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To: Masataka Ohta <mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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Ohta-san,

On 7 Feb 2019, at 18:28, Masataka Ohta =
<mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> wrote:

> Petr Spacek wrote:
>=20
>>    5. At least one NS RR must be present at the top of the zone.
>=20
> At least two.

With respect, I think the protocol requirement is at least one, not at =
least two.

I think best current practice is to avoid single-points of failure with =
the set of servers used to provide authoritative answers, and I agree =
that in many cases this is codified in user interfaces and registry =
policy as requiring two NS RRs. However, there is no shortage of such =
multiple RRs that refer to a single subnet or even a single instance of =
a nameserver process (so "at least two" is sometimes insufficient), and =
its perfectly possible to use anycast or both A and AAAA RRs attached to =
a single nameserver name that provide useful much more useful diversity =
than those degenerate two-NS implementations (so "just one" could in =
some circumstances be adequate).

RFC 7108 describes the implementation of a method that includes a single =
point-of-failure by design (see discussion of IDENTITY.L.ROOT-SERVERS. =
<http://identity.l.root-servers.org/>ORG in section 5).

In short, this is an operational question with multiple answers and I =
don't like the idea of formalising an over-simplistic restriction in the =
protocol specification.


Joe=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Ohta-san,<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
7 Feb 2019, at 18:28, Masataka Ohta &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp" =
class=3D"">mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Petr Spacek =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;5. At least one NS RR must be present at the top =
of the zone.</blockquote><br class=3D"">At least two.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div></div>With =
respect, I think the protocol requirement is at least one, not at least =
two.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think best =
current practice is to avoid single-points of failure with the set of =
servers used to provide authoritative answers, and I agree that in many =
cases this is codified in user interfaces and registry policy as =
requiring two NS RRs. However, there is no shortage of such multiple RRs =
that refer to a single subnet or even a single instance of a nameserver =
process (so "at least two" is sometimes insufficient), and its perfectly =
possible to use anycast or both A and AAAA RRs attached to a single =
nameserver name that provide useful much more useful diversity than =
those degenerate two-NS implementations (so "just one" could in some =
circumstances be adequate).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">RFC 7108 describes the implementation of a method that =
includes a single point-of-failure by design (see discussion of <a =
href=3D"http://IDENTITY.L.ROOT-SERVERS.oRG" =
class=3D"">IDENTITY.L.ROOT-SERVERS.</a>ORG&nbsp;in section 5).</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In short, this is an =
operational question with multiple answers and I don't like the idea of =
formalising an over-simplistic restriction in the protocol =
specification.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Joe</div></body></html>=

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To: Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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> On 8 Feb 2019, at 12:53 pm, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca> wrote:
>=20
> Ohta-san,
>=20
> On 7 Feb 2019, at 18:28, Masataka Ohta =
<mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> wrote:
>=20
>> Petr Spacek wrote:
>>=20
>>>    5. At least one NS RR must be present at the top of the zone.
>>=20
>> At least two.
>=20
> With respect, I think the protocol requirement is at least one, not at =
least two.
>=20
> I think best current practice is to avoid single-points of failure =
with the set of servers used to provide authoritative answers, and I =
agree that in many cases this is codified in user interfaces and =
registry policy as requiring two NS RRs. However, there is no shortage =
of such multiple RRs that refer to a single subnet or even a single =
instance of a nameserver process (so "at least two" is sometimes =
insufficient), and its perfectly possible to use anycast or both A and =
AAAA RRs attached to a single nameserver name that provide useful much =
more useful diversity than those degenerate two-NS implementations (so =
"just one" could in some circumstances be adequate).

A single anycast server DOES NOT and never can provide diversity from =
the client=E2=80=99s perspective.
Additionally multiple servers in the same /24 (IPv4) or same /48 (IPv6) =
should be treated as a
single server for diversity testing as these are accepted longest =
accepted prefixes.

> RFC 7108 describes the implementation of a method that includes a =
single point-of-failure by design (see discussion of =
IDENTITY.L.ROOT-SERVERS.ORG in section 5).
>=20
> In short, this is an operational question with multiple answers and I =
don't like the idea of formalising an over-simplistic restriction in the =
protocol specification.
>=20
>=20
> Joe
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop

--=20
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742              INTERNET: marka@isc.org


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From: Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
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Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 21:16:48 -0500
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To: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/O1-s8aIecvhJ0I9L9VZz8SE_bDU>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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On 7 Feb 2019, at 21:06, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:

> On 8 Feb 2019, at 12:53 pm, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca> wrote:
>=20
>> Ohta-san,
>>=20
>> On 7 Feb 2019, at 18:28, Masataka Ohta =
<mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Petr Spacek wrote:
>>>=20
>>>>   5. At least one NS RR must be present at the top of the zone.
>>>=20
>>> At least two.
>>=20
>> With respect, I think the protocol requirement is at least one, not =
at least two.
>>=20
>> I think best current practice is to avoid single-points of failure =
with the set of servers used to provide authoritative answers, and I =
agree that in many cases this is codified in user interfaces and =
registry policy as requiring two NS RRs. However, there is no shortage =
of such multiple RRs that refer to a single subnet or even a single =
instance of a nameserver process (so "at least two" is sometimes =
insufficient), and its perfectly possible to use anycast or both A and =
AAAA RRs attached to a single nameserver name that provide useful much =
more useful diversity than those degenerate two-NS implementations (so =
"just one" could in some circumstances be adequate).
>=20
> A single anycast server DOES NOT and never can provide diversity from =
the client=E2=80=99s perspective.
> Additionally multiple servers in the same /24 (IPv4) or same /48 =
(IPv6) should be treated as a
> single server for diversity testing as these are accepted longest =
accepted prefixes.

That depends on what you mean by "server" and how things are =
provisioned. It's not 1981 and there are many valid approaches for the =
removal of the outer feline layers.

I'll suggest that while recommendations and guidance about formulating a =
risk analysis are valuable outputs for this working group, absolute and =
broad statements are bet viewed with suspicion. No individual, no matter =
how well-informed and well-intentioned, can possibly know with certainty =
the complete situation of every relying party.

I think it's best for this working group to stick to what it's good at.


Joe=


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To: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
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References: <fcd790a2-414b-491e-01e2-9aa92f7b1c4e@nic.cz> <CAAeHe+xySnrvpD4-nhi3T0qiEmz8h0ZNUE_2kie7ctq8YPGRPA@mail.gmail.com> <56839e19-afe9-df4b-d432-09a949cc658c@nic.cz> <06E02AB3-5E3B-4E1F-9B23-BB0810F73B66@fugue.com> <CA+nkc8BLA1wVSQ6DEbM7py98Rq94P-=XJtEBzcJAD9LOucN2Ew@mail.gmail.com> <8a7a70e4-7214-c127-8542-0131bbc823bc@nic.cz> <dc68fa90-0d4c-b9d6-09cb-eec55b9f9077@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <7751AB0C-F738-4270-9C7E-2937F773187F@hopcount.ca> <2B4B9C25-F2CF-43D3-B0CC-64E7D7CA7D6C@isc.org>
From: Masataka Ohta <mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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Mark Andrews wrote:

> A single anycast server DOES NOT and never can provide diversity from the client$B!G(Bs perspective.
> Additionally multiple servers in the same /24 (IPv4) or same /48 (IPv6) should be treated as a
> single server for diversity testing as these are accepted longest accepted prefixes.

This WG should conclude that IPv6-style anycast is useless and
tell IESG obsolete it.

>> RFC 7108 describes the implementation of a method that includes a single point-of-failure by design (see discussion of IDENTITY.L.ROOT-SERVERS.ORG in section 5).
>>
>> In short, this is an operational question with multiple answers and I don't like the idea of formalising an over-simplistic restriction in the protocol specification.

How do you do IPv6 anycast with L servers?

							Masataka Ohta


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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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On Feb 7, 2019, at 23:12, Masataka Ohta
<mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> wrote:

>>> In short, this is an operational question with multiple answers and I don't like the idea of formalising an over-simplistic restriction in the protocol specification.
>
> How do you do IPv6 anycast with L servers?

That question seems a bit tangential, but in any case the simple
answer is I don't. You might ask the people who operate the ICANN root
server if you want a more useful answer; I haven't been in that team
since 2013).


Joe


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From: Alexander Mayrhofer <alexander.mayrhofer@nic.at>
To: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@icann.org>, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
CC: "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ext] [DNSOP] draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf vs. RFC7553
Thread-Index: AdS/A6lXkR/vK91JS+aKsAvRVHamBgAD1ZMAAAS9jQAAGhHCkA==
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2019 09:13:40 +0000
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [Ext]  draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf vs. RFC7553
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Hi,

> Von: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@icann.org>
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 7. Februar 2019 22:45

[..]

> > Dave moved the duct tape patching up all the places that defined
> > underscored names to draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf-fix.
> >
> > See sections 2.3 and 2.3 for URI records.
> >

Oh, i should have looked at the attrleaf-fix too, yes. I think that works, =
I'll go forward with the suggested text for registration of an global under=
scored node name. Pretty straightforward.

> > It's still a draft so if it seems wrong, send text.
>=20
> It is a draft, but it is has been in the RFC Editor's queue for 2.5 month=
s. Unless
> there is a technical problem, fixing it now (without WG review) could cau=
se
> more harm than benefit.

I agree. I actually waited with the revision of my draft to the very last m=
oment, because I was hoping the attrleaf cluster makes it through the RFC e=
ditors before my draft expires ;)

Thanks!
Alex


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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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Hi Tony, Ted,


seem to not be  a DNSOP specific thing: Obviously the inherent =
understanding of what consensus is at the time of creation of the =
textual representation of that consensus may be still ambiguous at time =
of writing to some, however may also become ambiguous over time, in part =
because over time ALL originators of a text might no longer be reachable =
for questions, and also there may be no snippets of text that could be =
cited from WG mailing lists.

Feels to me like something is needed as a tool to augment this, =
something that can more formally represent what the consensus =
requirements and definitions indeed are. IMHO to grow the set of =
representations of DNS in form of a suite of RFC7950 YANG based models =
could help for many such clarification cases, completely independent =
from the general usefulness of gaining an interoperable representation =
of DNS related data.=20

BR,=20
Normen

> On 7. Feb 2019, at 15:40, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
>=20
> On Feb 7, 2019, at 9:16 AM, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at =
<mailto:dot@dotat.at>> wrote:
>> But in this scenario things soon go wrong, because RFC 2181 says the
>> NODATA reply replaces the delegation records in the resolver's cache. =
This
>> means that if a client explicitly asks for the NS records of a zone =
that
>> lacks them, resolution for other records in the zone will =
subsequently
>> fail.
>=20
> Ah, there you have it.   So then it _is_ required.   Kevin=E2=80=99s =
point also points in that direction.
>=20
> Is there somewhere in a later spec where this is stated explicitly, =
then?
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Tony, Ted,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">seem to not be &nbsp;a DNSOP specific =
thing: Obviously the inherent understanding of what consensus is at the =
time of creation of the textual representation of that consensus may be =
still ambiguous at time of writing to some, however may also become =
ambiguous over time, in part because over time ALL originators of a text =
might no longer be reachable for questions, and also there may be no =
snippets of text that could be cited from WG mailing lists.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Feels to me like =
something is needed as a tool to augment this, something that can more =
formally represent what the consensus requirements and definitions =
indeed are. IMHO to grow the set of representations of DNS in form of a =
suite of RFC7950 YANG based models could help for many such =
clarification cases, completely independent from the general usefulness =
of gaining an interoperable representation of DNS related =
data.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"">BR,&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D"">Normen</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
7. Feb 2019, at 15:40, Ted Lemon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com" =
class=3D"">mellon@fugue.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On Feb 7, 2019, at =
9:16 AM, Tony Finch &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dot@dotat.at" =
class=3D"">dot@dotat.at</a>&gt; wrote:<div class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">But in this scenario things soon go wrong, because RFC 2181 =
says the</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">NODATA reply =
replaces the delegation records in the resolver's cache. This</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">means that if =
a client explicitly asks for the NS records of a zone that</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">lacks them, =
resolution for other records in the zone will subsequently</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">fail.</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Ah, there you have it. &nbsp; So then it _is_ required. =
&nbsp; Kevin=E2=80=99s point also points in that direction.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Is there somewhere in a =
later spec where this is stated explicitly, then?</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div></div>_______________________________________________<br=
 class=3D"">DNSOP mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:DNSOP@ietf.org" class=3D"">DNSOP@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Alexander Mayrhofer <alex.mayrhofer.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2019 14:58:38 +0100
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To: IETF DNSOP WG <dnsop@ietf.org>, din@irtf.org
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Subject: [DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-mayrhofer-did-dns-01.txt
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FYI,

i've submitted a new revision of the DID-DNS draft (publishing
Decentralized Identifiers in the DNS). The major changes in this
revision are:

- The registration for the _did Label is now performed via the Global
Underscore Name registry (see draft-ietf-dnsop-attrleaf, currently in
RFC editor queue)
- The experimental "email" method uses _mailto._did as scope selector
(rather than plain _did). This allows for clean seperation of other
future services using the scheme.

Feedback highly appreciated,
Alex

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 2:52 PM
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-mayrhofer-did-dns-01.txt
To: Dimitrij Klesev <dimitrij.klesev@nic.at>, Alexander Mayrhofer
<alex.mayrhofer.ietf@gmail.com>, Markus Sabadello
<markus@danubetech.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-mayrhofer-did-dns-01.txt
has been successfully submitted by Alexander Mayrhofer and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-mayrhofer-did-dns
Revision:       01
Title:          The Decentralized Identifier (DID) in the DNS
Document date:  2019-02-08
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          7
URL:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mayrhofer-did-dns-01.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mayrhofer-did-dns/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mayrhofer-did-dns-01
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-mayrhofer-did-dns
Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-mayrhofer-did-dns-01

Abstract:
   This document specifies the use of the URI Resource Record Type to
   publish Decentralized Identifiers (DIDs) in the DNS.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


From nobody Fri Feb  8 07:38:50 2019
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From: Tim Wicinski <tjw.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: [DNSOP] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update-04
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Tim Wicinski has requested publication of draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update-04 as Proposed Standard on behalf of the DNSOP working group.

Please verify the document's state at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update/


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Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2019 09:06:20 -0800
To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Petr_=8Apacek=22?= <petr.spacek@nic.cz>, dnsop@ietf.org
From: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 1035 vs. mandatory NS at apex?
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Hi Peter,
At 04:16 AM 07-02-2019, Petr =8Apacek wrote:
>here is a quiz for experienced RFC archeologists:
>
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1035#section-5.2
>section 5.2. Use of master files to define zones
>does not mention NS at apex at all, but it does explicitly mention SOA
>at apex. Can it be interpreted as if NS at apex is not mandatory?
>
>Funnily enough
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1035#section-5.3
>has an example which as NS at apex, but it is not clear from the text=
 above.
>
>Is it mandatory or not? Should I submit erratum for RFC 1035?

RFC 1035 assumes that the reader is familiar with=20
RFC 1034.  Section 5.2 of RFC 1035 discusses=20
about validity checks to be performed on the=20
master files used to define zones.  I would read=20
Section 4.2 of RFC 1034 to understand the=20
technical considerations, e.g. is a NS needed or=20
not.  The examples in RFC 1035 are "primarily=20
pedagogical".  I suggest taking into=20
consideration that RFC 1035 is part of STD 13 for errata processing.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy=20


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Subject: [DNSOP] AD Review of draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update
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--000000000000efece60581a4d622
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Hi there,

Section 1.2.  Updating Algorithm Requirement Levels says:
"[RFC2119] considers the term SHOULD equivalent to RECOMMENDED, and
   SHOULD NOT equivalent to NOT RECOMMENDED.  The authors of this
   document have chosen to use the terms RECOMMENDED and NOT
   RECOMMENDED, as this more clearly expresses the recommendations to
   implementers."

Actually, RFC2119 doesn't really contain NOT RECOMMENDED --- but, RFC8174
("Ambiguity of Uppercase vs Lowercase in RFC 2119 Key Words"), which
updates RFC2119 *does*.

Can the authors please resubmit with the new boilerplate from RFC8174 in
Section 2 (Conventions Used in This Document) and I'll kick off IETF LC.

W
-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in
the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of
pants.
   ---maf

--000000000000efece60581a4d622
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-se=
rif">Hi there,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verda=
na,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
verdana,sans-serif">Section 1.2.=C2=A0 Updating Algorithm Requirement Level=
s says:</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans=
-serif">&quot;[RFC2119] considers the term SHOULD equivalent to RECOMMENDED=
, and</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-s=
erif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0SHOULD NOT equivalent to NOT RECOMMENDED.=C2=A0 The auth=
ors of this</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,=
sans-serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0document have chosen to use the terms RECOMMENDED =
and NOT</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans=
-serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0RECOMMENDED, as this more clearly expresses the recomm=
endations to</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana=
,sans-serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0implementers.&quot;</div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Actually, RFC2119 doesn&=
#39;t really contain NOT RECOMMENDED --- but, RFC8174 (&quot;Ambiguity of U=
ppercase vs Lowercase in RFC 2119 Key Words&quot;), which updates RFC2119 *=
does*.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font=
-family:verdana,sans-serif">Can the authors please resubmit with the new bo=
ilerplate from RFC8174 in Section=C2=A02 (Conventions Used in This Document=
) and I&#39;ll kick off IETF LC.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" sty=
le=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">W</div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_signature">I don&#39;t think the execution is relevant when it wa=
s obviously a bad idea in the first place.<br>This is like putting rabid we=
asels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those par=
ticular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf</div><=
/div></div></div></div></div>

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Subject: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charse=
t=3DGB2312"><style>body { line-height: 1.5; }body { font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: =CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 1.5;=
 }</style></head><body>=0A<div><span></span><div>HI ALL,</div><div><h1 sty=
le=3D"margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 24pt; font-family: =
=CB=CE=CC=E5;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family:=
 =CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA, sans-serif; font-weight: normal;">RFC8484&nbsp;=
</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: =CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=
=DA, sans-serif; font-weight: normal;">=A1=B6</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: =CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA, sans-serif=
; font-weight: normal;">DNS Queries over HTTPS</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 12pt; font-family: =CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA, sans-serif; font-weight:=
 normal;">=A1=B7<span lang=3D"EN-US">defines a protocol for sending DNS qu=
eries and getting DNS responses over HTTPS. Its primary secnario is betwee=
n stub resolver and recursive resolver.</span></span></h1><h1 style=3D"mar=
gin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 24pt; font-family: =CB=CE=CC=
=E5;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: =CE=A2=
=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA, sans-serif; font-weight: normal;">I am considering ext=
ending the DoH protocal to authoritative servers.</span><span style=3D"fon=
t-family: =CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; font-weig=
ht: normal; line-height: 1.5; background-color: window;">&nbsp;To build th=
e trust chain, the child zone publishes a TLSA record instead of a DS reco=
rd in the parent zone </span><font color=3D"#ff0000" style=3D"font-family:=
 =CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; font-weight: norma=
l; line-height: 1.5; background-color: window;">[RFC 6698 may need update]=
</font><span style=3D"font-family: =CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA, sans-serif; f=
ont-size: 12pt; font-weight: normal; line-height: 1.5; background-color: w=
indow;">. The TLSA record contains the certificate that identifies the chi=
ld zone.</span></h1><h1 style=3D"margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font=
-size: 24pt; font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fon=
t-size: 12pt; font-family: =CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA, sans-serif; font-weig=
ht: normal;">In this way, the whole DNS is built on HTTPS which makes DNS =
more secure. DNSSEC is not necessary anymore and many other problems like =
fragmentation also will not exist.</span></h1><h1 style=3D"margin-right: 0=
cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 16px; font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5;"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: =CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA, sans-serif; =
font-weight: normal;"><span style=3D"font-family: =CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA=
; line-height: 1.5; background-color: window;">The&nbsp;sketch&nbsp;diagra=
m&nbsp;is&nbsp;as&nbsp;followed. &nbsp;Any comments are welcome!</span><o:=
p></o:p></span></h1></div><div><div style=3D"position: static !important;"=
><img src=3D"cid:_Foxmail.1@8ba44042-e629-b42c-003d-a572a38ada28" style=3D=
"max-width: 100%; height: auto !important;"></div></div></div>=0A<div><br>=
</div><hr style=3D"width: 210px; height: 1px;" color=3D"#b5c4df" size=3D"1=
" align=3D"left">=0A<div><span><div style=3D"MARGIN: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: ve=
rdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><div>zuopeng@cnnic.cn</div></div></span></div>=0A<=
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From nobody Tue Feb 12 00:34:43 2019
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Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 09:34:36 +0100
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: "zuopeng@cnnic.cn" <zuopeng@cnnic.cn>
Cc: dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 03:56:04PM +0800,
 zuopeng@cnnic.cn <zuopeng@cnnic.cn> wrote 
 a message of 546 lines which said:

> DNSSEC is not necessary anymore

This is clearly false. DoH provides _channel security_ DNSSEC provides
_content security_ (or object security). This is a very important
difference in security (we have JWS even if we have HTTPS, for
instance).


From nobody Tue Feb 12 00:39:13 2019
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From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: "zuopeng@cnnic.cn" <zuopeng@cnnic.cn>
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On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 03:56:04PM +0800,
 zuopeng@cnnic.cn <zuopeng@cnnic.cn> wrote 
 a message of 546 lines which said:

> I am considering extending the DoH protocal to authoritative
> servers.

Why DoH and not DoT? DoH is useful because 1) port 853 may be blocked
at the edge of the network 2) applications running in a Web browser
may need DNS data. But these two reasons do not apply to your use case
1) the resolver is often closer to the core and there is less risk
that 853 is blocked 2) there is no Web browser on the resolver.


From nobody Tue Feb 12 00:42:56 2019
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From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: "zuopeng@cnnic.cn" <zuopeng@cnnic.cn>
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On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 03:56:04PM +0800,
 zuopeng@cnnic.cn <zuopeng@cnnic.cn> wrote 
 a message of 546 lines which said:

> the child zone publishes a TLSA record instead of a DS record in the
> parent zone [RFC 6698 may need update]. The TLSA record contains the
> certificate that identifies the child zone.

The problem is that it would require all authoritative name servers of
a zone to have the same key. This is inconvenient in some setups, for
instance when part of the name servers is subcontracted. I suggest
that it is better to have a TLSA record per name server and not per
zone (draft-bortzmeyer-dprive-resolver-to-auth, section 2)


From nobody Tue Feb 12 04:50:38 2019
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Stephane Bortzmeyer:
> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 03:56:04PM +0800,
>  zuopeng@cnnic.cn <zuopeng@cnnic.cn> wrote=20
>  a message of 546 lines which said:
>=20
>> I am considering extending the DoH protocal to authoritative
>> servers.
>=20
> Why DoH and not DoT? DoH is useful because 1) port 853 may be blocked
> at the edge of the network 2) applications running in a Web browser
> may need DNS data. But these two reasons do not apply to your use case
> 1) the resolver is often closer to the core and there is less risk
> that 853 is blocked 2) there is no Web browser on the resolver.

Hi Stephane,

Both of those assumptions are false when the user has installed a
recursive resolver on their home computer, as is the case when the user
has installed DNSSEC-Trigger.  They're also false when the user has
installed Namecoin, since Namecoin domain names often delegate to DNS
via NS+DS records.

(Of course, it could be argued that Namecoin users need to deal with
network censorship of Namecoin protocol traffic anyway, but I don't see
any reason to make the situation unnecessarily worse by avoiding DoH.)

Cheers,
--=20
-Jeremy Rand
Lead Application Engineer at Namecoin
Mobile email: jeremyrandmobile@airmail.cc
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Send non-security-critical things to my Mobile with OpenPGP.
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My business email jeremy@veclabs.net is having technical issues at the
moment.


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From nobody Tue Feb 12 06:07:55 2019
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From: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
To: "zuopeng@cnnic.cn" <zuopeng@cnnic.cn>
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On Tue, 12 Feb 2019, zuopeng@cnnic.cn wrote:

>    In this way, the whole DNS is built on HTTPS which makes DNS more secure. DNSSEC is not necessary anymore and many other
>                                        problems like fragmentation also will not exist.

This idea is similar to DNScurve. The problem is that channel security
does not help when you have an infrastructure of DNS caches, as nothing
in the cache can be used to validate the content.

djb's solution to this problem was to obsolete the cache, and at the CCC
conference he then threw around numbers that "claimed" caching is not
working or needed, and was proven wrong by me showing some cache
percentages of real DNS servers.

DNSSEC provides origin protection, and digital signatures are needed,
which TLS does not offer.

Paul


From nobody Tue Feb 12 06:51:21 2019
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From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 09:07:43AM -0500,
 Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> wrote 
 a message of 23 lines which said:

> This idea is similar to DNScurve. The problem is that channel
> security does not help when you have an infrastructure of DNS
> caches,

Or when secondary name servers are not under the same organisation.



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From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote on 2019-02-12 00:39:
> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 03:56:04PM +0800,
>   zuopeng@cnnic.cn <zuopeng@cnnic.cn> wrote
>   a message of 546 lines which said:
> 
>> I am considering extending the DoH protocal to authoritative
>> servers.
> 
> Why DoH and not DoT? ...

well, yes, but...

> DoH is useful because 1) port 853 may be blocked
> at the edge of the network 

DoH is _dangerous_ because it's my network and i require all visitors, 
family members, employees, and apps to use the control plane i have 
constructed, which includes DNS surveillance and control. thanks to DoH, 
i will have to add a WAF, or require SOCKS, for all outbound TCP/443 to 
the cloudflare, google, and other so-called "public" dns services. i am 
nowhere near ready to allow cloudflare and apnic and the others to build 
their own private DNS relationship with my endpoints, bypassing parental 
controls, bypassing corporate security policy.

DoT should be preferred precisely because it _can_ be blocked by the 
network operator. if someone insists on not talking to my DNS servers, 
they can take their device elsewhere. this is especially vital for IoT, 
whose makers will never be profitable other than from data they collect.

> 2) applications running in a Web browser
> may need DNS data. ...
i expect those apps to make normal UDP/53, TCP/53, or TCP/853 requests 
from the designated DNS servers i operate as part of my control plane. 
any attempt to speak DoH from my networks will be treated as an attack.

-- 
P Vixie


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On Tue, 12 Feb 2019, Paul Vixie wrote:

> this is especially vital for IoT, whose makers will 
> never be profitable other than from data they collect.

I hope those makes will be unprofitable and close shop.

IoT devices should be designed to be accessed through secure VPN or TLS
connections, without going through vulnerable large scale server farms
in unknown or unpleasant countries invading my human privacy rights.

For example, I'm using my hue lights with or without VPN, without telling
Philips when I turn the lights on or off and without telling philips
when I am near or not near by house.

That said, software circumventing the system's resolver is bad, and is
not the layer this should be happening on, and it should really be a
last ditch effort requiring user exception. But browsers think they are
the DNS police now :(

Paul


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From: Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
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On 12 Feb 2019, at 12:22, Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Feb 2019, Paul Vixie wrote:
>=20
>> this is especially vital for IoT, whose makers will never be =
profitable other than from data they collect.
>=20
> I hope those makes will be unprofitable and close shop.
>=20
> IoT devices should be designed to be accessed through secure VPN or =
TLS
> connections, without going through vulnerable large scale server farms
> in unknown or unpleasant countries invading my human privacy rights.
>=20
> For example, I'm using my hue lights with or without VPN, without =
telling
> Philips when I turn the lights on or off and without telling philips
> when I am near or not near by house.

As an aside, it looks to me like Philips are making Hue viable with a =
price point that makes them invisible to the average consumer. The =
Internet is awash with smart lights with apparently equivalent =
functionality and a price point that is 90% lower. Either Philips have =
the biggest margin on consumer electronics the world has ever seen, or =
the manufacturers of the cheap alternatives are getting paid in ways =
other than money.

In terms of volume (which is what we care about if we are worried about =
numbers of active devices) Hue is a rounding error.


Joe=


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From: David Conrad <drc@virtualized.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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Paul,

On Feb 12, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:
> DoH is _dangerous_ because it's my network and i require all visitors, =
family members, employees, and apps to use the control plane i have =
constructed, which includes DNS surveillance and control.

Why don=E2=80=99t you force folks on your network to install a =
certificate that would allow you to inspect TCP/443 outbound traffic?  =
How can you be sure folks on your network aren=E2=80=99t already =
tunneling their evil deeds through HTTPS?

Thanks,
-drc


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charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Paul,<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""></div><div>On Feb 12, =
2019, at 8:32 AM, Paul Vixie &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paul@redbarn.org" =
class=3D"">paul@redbarn.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Menlo-Regular;" =
class=3D"">DoH is _dangerous_ because it's my network and i require all =
visitors, family members, employees, and apps to use the control plane i =
have constructed, which includes DNS surveillance and control. =
</span></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Why don=E2=80=99t you =
force folks on your network to install a certificate that would allow =
you to inspect TCP/443 outbound traffic? &nbsp;How can you be sure folks =
on your network aren=E2=80=99t already tunneling their evil deeds =
through HTTPS?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>-drc</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><style class=3D"">ul[class*=3D'mb-extra__public-links'], =
ul[class*=3D'mb-note__public-links'], ul[class*=3D'mb-task__public-links']=
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From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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David Conrad wrote on 2019-02-12 10:14:
> Paul,
> 
> On Feb 12, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org 
> <mailto:paul@redbarn.org>> wrote:
>> DoH is _dangerous_ because it's my network and i require all visitors, 
>> family members, employees, and apps to use the control plane i have 
>> constructed, which includes DNS surveillance and control. 
> 
> Why donâ€™t you force folks on your network to install a certificate that 
> would allow you to inspect TCP/443 outbound traffic? Â How can you be 
> sure folks on your network arenâ€™t already tunneling their evil deeds 
> through HTTPS?

netflow. such traffic _looks_ abnormal.

the deliberate design premise of DoH is that it look normal.

-- 
P Vixie


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To: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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On Feb 12, 2019, at 10:34 AM, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:
> netflow. such traffic _looks_ abnormal.
>=20
> the deliberate design premise of DoH is that it look normal.

It=E2=80=99s either one or the other.   DoH is such traffic.  If it =
looks abnormal, you can do something about it.   If it doesn=E2=80=99t, =
you can=E2=80=99t.   It=E2=80=99s not the case that nefarious traffic =
that is not DoH is special in looking different.  Or rather, to the =
extent that you are good at identifying and blocking such traffic, that =
will naturally select for solutions that are less easily identified, and =
eventually the steady state will be exactly what you are afraid of with =
DoH.   To the extent that DoH is less obvious than these other =
techniques, you could legitimately say that it is an example of this =
process of natural selection.   It just happens to be visible to you, =
whereas all the other examples are not, because they are being done by =
black hats, not by the IETF.


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-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Feb 12, 2019, at 10:34 AM, Paul Vixie &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paul@redbarn.org" class=3D"">paul@redbarn.org</a>&gt; =
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style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">netflow. such =
traffic _looks_ abnormal.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">the deliberate design premise of DoH is that it look =
normal.</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s either one or the other. &nbsp; DoH is such =
traffic. &nbsp;If it looks abnormal, you can do something about it. =
&nbsp; If it doesn=E2=80=99t, you can=E2=80=99t. &nbsp; It=E2=80=99s not =
the case that nefarious traffic that is not DoH is special in looking =
different. &nbsp;Or rather, to the extent that you are good at =
identifying and blocking such traffic, that will naturally select for =
solutions that are less easily identified, and eventually the steady =
state will be exactly what you are afraid of with DoH. &nbsp; To the =
extent that DoH is less obvious than these other techniques, you could =
legitimately say that it is an example of this process of natural =
selection. &nbsp; It just happens to be visible to you, whereas all the =
other examples are not, because they are being done by black hats, not =
by the IETF.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_C5948D01-6BD1-48C2-9C8B-8C5E035B32CF--


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References: <2019021215560470371417@cnnic.cn> <20190212083908.w5cwgtmypkjwmqnd@nic.fr> <ecfdb33d-7925-f762-6788-68b7a659a3d8@redbarn.org> <43FF2435-37C6-43B0-B97C-59D23AD2A9C2@virtualized.org> <873fe3e1-58e4-38a7-eb11-37509f9b7ff4@redbarn.org> <D01BFEEE-746D-4F30-A3CE-497D4AFA8CC5@fugue.com>
From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Ted Lemon wrote on 2019-02-12 10:44:
> On Feb 12, 2019, at 10:34 AM, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org 
> <mailto:paul@redbarn.org>> wrote:
>> netflow. such traffic _looks_ abnormal.
>>
>> the deliberate design premise of DoH is that it look normal.
> 
> Itâ€™s either one or the other.

actually, there are other choices.

-- 
P Vixie


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On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 08:32:28AM -0800,
 Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote 
 a message of 39 lines which said:

> i require all visitors, family members, employees, and apps to use
> the control plane i have constructed, which includes DNS
> surveillance and control.

Reminds me of a sentence which is awfully true: "applications on the
Internet now have to use the techniques of the botnets, just to work".


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On Feb 12, 2019, at 11:04 AM, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:
> actually, there are other choices.

I may have failed to communicate.   What I mean is that you said that =
you can detect all nefarious traffic, but you can=E2=80=99t detect DoH, =
which to you is nefarious.   What I=E2=80=99m saying is that there=E2=80=99=
s no such distinction, or at least if there is at present, it is a =
temporary situation.

Of course you have choices about what to do about this; my point is not =
to suggest that you do not.


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Feb 12, 2019, at 11:04 AM, Paul Vixie &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paul@redbarn.org" class=3D"">paul@redbarn.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">actually, =
there are other choices.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">I may have failed to communicate. &nbsp; What =
I mean is that you said that you can detect all nefarious traffic, but =
you can=E2=80=99t detect DoH, which to you is nefarious. &nbsp; What =
I=E2=80=99m saying is that there=E2=80=99s no such distinction, or at =
least if there is at present, it is a temporary situation.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Of course you have =
choices about what to do about this; my point is not to suggest that you =
do not.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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References: <2019021215560470371417@cnnic.cn> <20190212083908.w5cwgtmypkjwmqnd@nic.fr> <ecfdb33d-7925-f762-6788-68b7a659a3d8@redbarn.org> <43FF2435-37C6-43B0-B97C-59D23AD2A9C2@virtualized.org> <873fe3e1-58e4-38a7-eb11-37509f9b7ff4@redbarn.org> <D01BFEEE-746D-4F30-A3CE-497D4AFA8CC5@fugue.com> <7cdbd8a8-2bf4-992e-3197-ca17e7352a5b@redbarn.org> <725FD25D-FCE9-4740-A001-79369AFDEB78@fugue.com>
From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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Ted Lemon wrote on 2019-02-12 12:07:
> On Feb 12, 2019, at 11:04 AM, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org 
> <mailto:paul@redbarn.org>> wrote:
>> actually, there are other choices.
> 
> I may have failed to communicate. Â  What I mean is that you said that 
> you can detect all nefarious traffic, but you canâ€™t detect DoH, which to 
> you is nefarious. Â  What Iâ€™m saying is that thereâ€™s no such distinction, 
> or at least if there is at present, it is a temporary situation.

i realize that the political tacticians who designed DoH are searching 
for a world in which network operators have no control plane choices. i 
think they're proceeding from the mistaken belief that all control is 
evil, and that all network operators are equally deserving of 
disintermediation. and other mistaken beliefs as well, which i won't 
enumerate.

> 
> Of course you have choices about what to do about this; my point is not 
> to suggest that you do not.
> 

whether the situation turns out to be temporary or not is important to 
your final argument. probably you shouldn't go there so soon. spammers 
also believe that network operators should not be able to control their 
own networks, and malware authors, and botnet creators, and IoT 
innovators, and surveillance capitalists. none of those matters seem 
like they are, or will ever be, settled. so, none are "temporary".

my network, my rules. anyone who acts otherwise will be treated by me as 
an adversary, even folks like mozilla who have been fellow travelers for 
decades now, if they continue to pursue unblockable endpoint technology.

-- 
P Vixie


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To: "Paul Vixie" <paul@redbarn.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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On 12 Feb 2019, at 21:48, Paul Vixie wrote:

> whether the situation turns out to be temporary or not is important to =
your final argument. probably you shouldn't go there so soon. spammers al=
so believe that network operators should not be able to control their own=
 networks, and malware authors, and botnet creators, and IoT innovators, =
and surveillance capitalists. none of those matters seem like they are, o=
r will ever be, settled. so, none are "temporary".

The current legal system and court decisions require access providers to =
have some control. Today it is "enough" for the access providers to block=
 DNS lookup of certain domain names. We on THIS list understand how easy =
it is to go around that kind of blocking, but that does not matter. It is=
 enough for the legal systems in the world.

If the control over the DNS lookups is no longer possible by the access p=
rovider, then the access providers by law have to use other tools to cont=
rol the traffic from their customers.

So, it is not only their choice.

   Patrik

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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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To: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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On Feb 12, 2019, at 12:48 PM, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:
> i realize that the political tacticians who designed DoH are searching =
for a world in which network operators have no control plane choices. i =
think they're proceeding from the mistaken belief that all control is =
evil, and that all network operators are equally deserving of =
disintermediation. and other mistaken beliefs as well, which i won't =
enumerate.

I still feel like we are talking past each other.

What I am saying is that there are a set of different mechanisms, all of =
which use port 443, in order to avoid being subjected to your control =
plane.   DoH is in principle one of these.   We do not disagree about =
this, as far as I can tell.

What I think we differ on is the idea that, in the absence of these =
=E2=80=9Cpolitical tacticians=E2=80=9D of whom you speak, that this =
problem would not exist.

What I am trying to point out is that the situation with DoH is a =
symptom of the problem you are not talking about, not the only instance =
of it.

You seem to be asserting that DoH is special among all other misuses of =
port 443.   But you haven=E2=80=99t explained why it is special.   This =
is what I was trying to tease out with my initial response to what you =
said.


--Apple-Mail=_9AA6B010-9734-4272-84FA-1B33EBABCDAC
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Feb 12, 2019, at 12:48 PM, Paul Vixie &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paul@redbarn.org" class=3D"">paul@redbarn.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">i realize =
that the political tacticians who designed DoH are searching for a world =
in which network operators have no control plane choices. i think =
they're proceeding from the mistaken belief that all control is evil, =
and that all network operators are equally deserving of =
disintermediation. and other mistaken beliefs as well, which i won't =
enumerate.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">I still feel like we are talking past each other.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">What I am saying is that =
there are a set of different mechanisms, all of which use port 443, in =
order to avoid being subjected to your control plane. &nbsp; DoH is in =
principle one of these. &nbsp; We do not disagree about this, as far as =
I can tell.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">What=
 I think we differ on is the idea that, in the absence of these =
=E2=80=9Cpolitical tacticians=E2=80=9D of whom you speak, that this =
problem would not exist.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">What I am trying to point out is that the situation with DoH =
is a symptom of the problem you are not talking about, not the only =
instance of it.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">You seem to be asserting that DoH is special among all other =
misuses of port 443. &nbsp; But you haven=E2=80=99t explained why it is =
special. &nbsp; This is what I was trying to tease out with my initial =
response to what you said.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Tue Feb 12 13:48:41 2019
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To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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References: <2019021215560470371417@cnnic.cn> <20190212083908.w5cwgtmypkjwmqnd@nic.fr> <ecfdb33d-7925-f762-6788-68b7a659a3d8@redbarn.org> <43FF2435-37C6-43B0-B97C-59D23AD2A9C2@virtualized.org> <873fe3e1-58e4-38a7-eb11-37509f9b7ff4@redbarn.org> <D01BFEEE-746D-4F30-A3CE-497D4AFA8CC5@fugue.com> <7cdbd8a8-2bf4-992e-3197-ca17e7352a5b@redbarn.org> <725FD25D-FCE9-4740-A001-79369AFDEB78@fugue.com> <d1f66089-1e78-15f6-269c-33ced12c2738@redbarn.org> <3C1FF728-2F31-4884-B7E9-55DF4E15AEB6@fugue.com>
From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
Message-ID: <cb9646e3-676d-c24f-240d-e0c8ed159e88@redbarn.org>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 13:48:36 -0800
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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Ted Lemon wrote on 2019-02-12 13:00:
> ...
> 
> I still feel like we are talking past each other.
> 
> What I am saying is that there are a set of different mechanisms, all of 
> which use port 443, in order to avoid being subjected to your control 
> plane. Â  DoH is in principle one of these. Â  We do not disagree about 
> this, as far as I can tell.
> 
> What I think we differ on is the idea that, in the absence of these 
> â€œpolitical tacticiansâ€ of whom you speak, that this problem would not exist.
> 
> What I am trying to point out is that the situation with DoH is a 
> symptom of the problem you are not talking about, not the only instance 
> of it.
> 
> You seem to be asserting that DoH is special among all other misuses of 
> port 443. Â  But you havenâ€™t explained why it is special. Â  This is what 
> I was trying to tease out with my initial response to what you said.

i may have been too brief. however, i reject this false equivalence.

when a new flow or pattern of flows shows up to distant tcp/443 
responders, this is detectable. if what's detected exceeds thresholds, 
or if it is found to coincide with any other behaviour change, then it 
can be investigated, and perhaps made the subject of new policy. no 
security is perfect and we can't demand it. what we have is temporary 
equilibriums that appropriately match investments and known risks.

DoH _specifically_ evades this, by looking as much as possible like 
other traffic to IP addresses shared by a lot of existing traffic. this 
means the only way to maintain the risk:cost balance of pre-DoH is to 
inspect every flow. many network operators can't afford this or can't 
otherwise do it. those who can and do, can be expected to be grumpy 
about it having their risks and costs increased for political reasons. 
those who can't or don't, can be expected to be grumpy about losing more 
of what little control or visibility they had, for political reasons.

google, ibm, cloudflare, cisco, and other so-called "public dns" 
providers will at some point choose whether to offer DoH from shared 
addresses, making those shared addresses into risks that the rest of us 
have to manage differently; or whether to dedicate DoH to well known 
addresses that can be outright blocked. in the later case, existing 
anomaly detection and post-facto investigations and policy shifts will 
continue to be good enough.

and that's why DoH is special.

(five paragraphs elided.)

-- 
P Vixie


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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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To: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
References: <2019021215560470371417@cnnic.cn> <20190212083908.w5cwgtmypkjwmqnd@nic.fr> <ecfdb33d-7925-f762-6788-68b7a659a3d8@redbarn.org> <43FF2435-37C6-43B0-B97C-59D23AD2A9C2@virtualized.org> <873fe3e1-58e4-38a7-eb11-37509f9b7ff4@redbarn.org> <D01BFEEE-746D-4F30-A3CE-497D4AFA8CC5@fugue.com> <7cdbd8a8-2bf4-992e-3197-ca17e7352a5b@redbarn.org> <725FD25D-FCE9-4740-A001-79369AFDEB78@fugue.com> <d1f66089-1e78-15f6-269c-33ced12c2738@redbarn.org> <3C1FF728-2F31-4884-B7E9-55DF4E15AEB6@fugue.com> <cb9646e3-676d-c24f-240d-e0c8ed159e88@redbarn.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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On Feb 12, 2019, at 1:48 PM, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:
> DoH _specifically_ evades this, by looking as much as possible like =
other traffic to IP addresses shared by a lot of existing traffic.=20

Right.   So what=E2=80=99s to stop other malicious traffic from doing =
the same thing?

IOW, you seem to want DoH to go away, but will that actually solve your =
problem?   If so, how?


--Apple-Mail=_0B541A54-F764-447E-BA5A-7DD2F87BD6F0
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Feb 12, 2019, at 1:48 PM, Paul Vixie &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paul@redbarn.org" class=3D"">paul@redbarn.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">DoH =
_specifically_ evades this, by looking as much as possible like other =
traffic to IP addresses shared by a lot of existing traffic.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></div></blockquote></d=
iv><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">Right. &nbsp; So what=E2=80=99s to =
stop other malicious traffic from doing the same thing?</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">IOW, you seem to want =
DoH to go away, but will that actually solve your problem? &nbsp; If so, =
how?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Tue Feb 12 14:18:41 2019
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To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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References: <2019021215560470371417@cnnic.cn> <20190212083908.w5cwgtmypkjwmqnd@nic.fr> <ecfdb33d-7925-f762-6788-68b7a659a3d8@redbarn.org> <43FF2435-37C6-43B0-B97C-59D23AD2A9C2@virtualized.org> <873fe3e1-58e4-38a7-eb11-37509f9b7ff4@redbarn.org> <D01BFEEE-746D-4F30-A3CE-497D4AFA8CC5@fugue.com> <7cdbd8a8-2bf4-992e-3197-ca17e7352a5b@redbarn.org> <725FD25D-FCE9-4740-A001-79369AFDEB78@fugue.com> <d1f66089-1e78-15f6-269c-33ced12c2738@redbarn.org> <3C1FF728-2F31-4884-B7E9-55DF4E15AEB6@fugue.com> <cb9646e3-676d-c24f-240d-e0c8ed159e88@redbarn.org> <4C2F9639-6C22-4FB7-840B-0318B40C2193@fugue.com>
From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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Ted Lemon wrote on 2019-02-12 14:08:
> On Feb 12, 2019, at 1:48 PM, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org 
> <mailto:paul@redbarn.org>> wrote:
>> DoH _specifically_ evades this, by looking as much as possible like 
>> other traffic to IP addresses shared by a lot of existing traffic.
> 
> Right. Â  So whatâ€™s to stop other malicious traffic from doing the same 
> thing?

lack of an IETF-approved standard with planned implementation by a half 
dozen tech giants, means that other malicious traffic will not be able 
to hide in the crowd, and can be made subject to policy, and complaints.

> IOW, you seem to want DoH to go away, but will that actually solve your 
> problem? Â  If so, how?

i want DoT to be used instead, and backed by google, mozilla, 
cloudflare, and the others. i want malicious traffic to stand apart from 
the crowd, where affordable anomaly detection can see it and cope with 
it. security economics is a "long game." DoH is a giant step function.

-- 
P Vixie


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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Cc: David Conrad <drc@virtualized.org>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
To: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
References: <2019021215560470371417@cnnic.cn> <20190212083908.w5cwgtmypkjwmqnd@nic.fr> <ecfdb33d-7925-f762-6788-68b7a659a3d8@redbarn.org> <43FF2435-37C6-43B0-B97C-59D23AD2A9C2@virtualized.org> <873fe3e1-58e4-38a7-eb11-37509f9b7ff4@redbarn.org> <D01BFEEE-746D-4F30-A3CE-497D4AFA8CC5@fugue.com> <7cdbd8a8-2bf4-992e-3197-ca17e7352a5b@redbarn.org> <725FD25D-FCE9-4740-A001-79369AFDEB78@fugue.com> <d1f66089-1e78-15f6-269c-33ced12c2738@redbarn.org> <3C1FF728-2F31-4884-B7E9-55DF4E15AEB6@fugue.com> <cb9646e3-676d-c24f-240d-e0c8ed159e88@redbarn.org> <4C2F9639-6C22-4FB7-840B-0318B40C2193@fugue.com> <9e56da22-4fb5-1c68-3bfc-85283b0e8480@redbarn.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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On Feb 12, 2019, at 2:18 PM, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:
> lack of an IETF-approved standard with planned implementation by a =
half dozen tech giants, means that other malicious traffic will not be =
able to hide in the crowd, and can be made subject to policy, and =
complaints.

So you=E2=80=99re saying that DoH traffic that=E2=80=99s not going to =
well-known IP addresses is easier to detect than DoH traffic going to =
well-known IP addresses?


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charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Feb 12, 2019, at 2:18 PM, Paul Vixie &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paul@redbarn.org" class=3D"">paul@redbarn.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">lack of an =
IETF-approved standard with planned implementation by a half dozen tech =
giants, means that other malicious traffic will not be able to hide in =
the crowd, and can be made subject to policy, and =
complaints.</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">So you=E2=80=99re saying that DoH traffic that=E2=80=99s not =
going to well-known IP addresses is easier to detect than DoH traffic =
going to well-known IP addresses?</div><div class=3D""><br =
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From nobody Tue Feb 12 14:45:57 2019
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To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Cc: David Conrad <drc@virtualized.org>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
References: <2019021215560470371417@cnnic.cn> <20190212083908.w5cwgtmypkjwmqnd@nic.fr> <ecfdb33d-7925-f762-6788-68b7a659a3d8@redbarn.org> <43FF2435-37C6-43B0-B97C-59D23AD2A9C2@virtualized.org> <873fe3e1-58e4-38a7-eb11-37509f9b7ff4@redbarn.org> <D01BFEEE-746D-4F30-A3CE-497D4AFA8CC5@fugue.com> <7cdbd8a8-2bf4-992e-3197-ca17e7352a5b@redbarn.org> <725FD25D-FCE9-4740-A001-79369AFDEB78@fugue.com> <d1f66089-1e78-15f6-269c-33ced12c2738@redbarn.org> <3C1FF728-2F31-4884-B7E9-55DF4E15AEB6@fugue.com> <cb9646e3-676d-c24f-240d-e0c8ed159e88@redbarn.org> <4C2F9639-6C22-4FB7-840B-0318B40C2193@fugue.com> <9e56da22-4fb5-1c68-3bfc-85283b0e8480@redbarn.org> <97C2ED2B-9086-4E3B-98FB-116E95281030@fugue.com>
From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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Ted Lemon wrote on 2019-02-12 14:20:
> ...
> 
> So youâ€™re saying that DoH traffic thatâ€™s not going to well-known IP 
> addresses is easier to detect than DoH traffic going to well-known IP 
> addresses?

yes, that's what i've been trying to say. if CF only publishes DoH 
content on 1.0.0.0/23, then i can just block that, and leave their main 
HTTPS server addresses alone. same for google, opendns/umbrella/cisco, 
ibm, and the others. one of my networks only allows TCP/443 to 
explicitly enumerated destinations... one of which is the main service 
address for google. i need that to never contain DoH traffic, please.

note, i prefer to block UDP/53, TCP/53, and TCP/853, because then my 
risks are lower, and my costs for managing those risks also lower. and 
that's why DoT is a better _engineered_ solution than DoH. i remember a 
time when the IAB would have said "no" to an internet standard which 
mandated deliberate loss of control by network operators. hey you kids, 
get offa my lawn, and so on.

-- 
P Vixie


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From: David Conrad <drc@virtualized.org>
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On Feb 12, 2019, at 2:18 PM, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:
> Ted Lemon wrote on 2019-02-12 14:08:
>> On Feb 12, 2019, at 1:48 PM, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org =
<mailto:paul@redbarn.org> <mailto:paul@redbarn.org =
<mailto:paul@redbarn.org>>> wrote:
>>> DoH _specifically_ evades this, by looking as much as possible like =
other traffic to IP addresses shared by a lot of existing traffic.
>> Right.   So what=E2=80=99s to stop other malicious traffic from doing =
the same thing?
> lack of an IETF-approved standard with planned implementation by a =
half dozen tech giants,

And that worked so well with NAT.

Regards,
-drc



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word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">On =
Feb 12, 2019, at 1:48 PM, Paul Vixie &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paul@redbarn.org" class=3D"">paul@redbarn.org</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paul@redbarn.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:paul@redbarn.org</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">DoH _specifically_ =
evades this, by looking as much as possible like other traffic to IP =
addresses shared by a lot of existing traffic.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>Right. &nbsp; So what=E2=80=99s to stop other =
malicious traffic from doing the same thing?</blockquote><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">lack of an =
IETF-approved standard with planned implementation by a half dozen tech =
giants, </span></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>And that =
worked so well with NAT.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Regards,</div><div>-drc</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><style =
class=3D"">ul[class*=3D'mb-extra__public-links'], =
ul[class*=3D'mb-note__public-links'], ul[class*=3D'mb-task__public-links']=
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From nobody Tue Feb 12 15:03:59 2019
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To: David Conrad <drc@virtualized.org>
Cc: dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
References: <2019021215560470371417@cnnic.cn> <20190212083908.w5cwgtmypkjwmqnd@nic.fr> <ecfdb33d-7925-f762-6788-68b7a659a3d8@redbarn.org> <43FF2435-37C6-43B0-B97C-59D23AD2A9C2@virtualized.org> <873fe3e1-58e4-38a7-eb11-37509f9b7ff4@redbarn.org> <D01BFEEE-746D-4F30-A3CE-497D4AFA8CC5@fugue.com> <7cdbd8a8-2bf4-992e-3197-ca17e7352a5b@redbarn.org> <725FD25D-FCE9-4740-A001-79369AFDEB78@fugue.com> <d1f66089-1e78-15f6-269c-33ced12c2738@redbarn.org> <3C1FF728-2F31-4884-B7E9-55DF4E15AEB6@fugue.com> <cb9646e3-676d-c24f-240d-e0c8ed159e88@redbarn.org> <4C2F9639-6C22-4FB7-840B-0318B40C2193@fugue.com> <9e56da22-4fb5-1c68-3bfc-85283b0e8480@redbarn.org> <E2ABD9DC-668E-44BA-AB09-367C7B16C716@virtualized.org>
From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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David Conrad wrote on 2019-02-12 14:58:
>> lack of an IETF-approved standard with planned implementation by a 
>> half dozen tech giants, 
> 
> And that worked so well with NAT.

network operators had a choice whether to deploy NAT. i'd like the same 
level of freedom when it comes to how DNS is served. too old-school?

-- 
P Vixie


From nobody Tue Feb 12 15:10:42 2019
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From: David Conrad <drc@virtualized.org>
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On Feb 12, 2019, at 3:03 PM, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:
> David Conrad wrote on 2019-02-12 14:58:
>>> lack of an IETF-approved standard with planned implementation by a =
half dozen tech giants,
>> And that worked so well with NAT.
> network operators had a choice whether to deploy NAT.

You missed my point.  The IETF declared NATs heretical and as a result, =
a zillion people did it in a zillion different ways, creating a huge =
mess.  Lots of people are implementing sending/receiving DNS =
queries/responses over HTTPS. DoH simply codifies one way of doing it so =
that network managers, software developers, etc., have a chance to =
develop management systems for it.

> i'd like the same level of freedom when it comes to how DNS is served.

Then force the folks on your network to install a cert so you can filter =
out DoH.  Contrary to your assertion, I doubt netflow will let you =
discriminate between good and evil. You have to have visibility to do =
that.

> too old-school?

Too ostrich-like.

Regards,
-drc


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div>On Feb 12, 2019, at 3:03 PM, Paul Vixie &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paul@redbarn.org" class=3D"">paul@redbarn.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Menlo-Regular;" class=3D"">David Conrad wrote on =
2019-02-12 14:58:</span><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 10px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">lack of an IETF-approved =
standard with planned implementation by a half dozen tech giants,<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>And that worked so well with =
NAT.</blockquote><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">network =
operators had a choice whether to deploy NAT. =
</span></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>You missed my point. =
&nbsp;The IETF declared NATs heretical and as a result, a zillion people =
did it in a zillion different ways, creating a huge mess. &nbsp;Lots of =
people are implementing sending/receiving DNS queries/responses over =
HTTPS. DoH simply codifies one way of doing it so that network managers, =
software developers, etc., have a chance to develop management systems =
for it.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">i'd like the =
same level of freedom when it comes to how DNS is served. =
</span></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Then force the folks =
on your network to install a cert so you can filter out DoH. =
&nbsp;Contrary to your assertion, I doubt netflow will let you =
discriminate between good and evil. You have to have visibility to do =
that.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">too =
old-school?</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><style =
class=3D"">ul[class*=3D'mb-extra__public-links'], =
ul[class*=3D'mb-note__public-links'], ul[class*=3D'mb-task__public-links']=
 { display: none !important; }</style><div class=3D"">Too =
ostrich-like.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Regards,</div><div class=3D"">-drc</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Tue Feb 12 15:32:40 2019
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To: David Conrad <drc@virtualized.org>
Cc: dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
References: <2019021215560470371417@cnnic.cn> <20190212083908.w5cwgtmypkjwmqnd@nic.fr> <ecfdb33d-7925-f762-6788-68b7a659a3d8@redbarn.org> <43FF2435-37C6-43B0-B97C-59D23AD2A9C2@virtualized.org> <873fe3e1-58e4-38a7-eb11-37509f9b7ff4@redbarn.org> <D01BFEEE-746D-4F30-A3CE-497D4AFA8CC5@fugue.com> <7cdbd8a8-2bf4-992e-3197-ca17e7352a5b@redbarn.org> <725FD25D-FCE9-4740-A001-79369AFDEB78@fugue.com> <d1f66089-1e78-15f6-269c-33ced12c2738@redbarn.org> <3C1FF728-2F31-4884-B7E9-55DF4E15AEB6@fugue.com> <cb9646e3-676d-c24f-240d-e0c8ed159e88@redbarn.org> <4C2F9639-6C22-4FB7-840B-0318B40C2193@fugue.com> <9e56da22-4fb5-1c68-3bfc-85283b0e8480@redbarn.org> <E2ABD9DC-668E-44BA-AB09-367C7B16C716@virtualized.org> <fa4a2570-f8bc-2694-1a27-f2795515520b@redbarn.org> <8B58EEF9-2669-47E3-B3D4-7993A1118C8C@virtualized.org>
From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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David Conrad wrote on 2019-02-12 15:10:
> You missed my point.  The IETF declared NATs heretical and as a
> result, a zillion people did it in a zillion different ways, creating
> a huge mess.

i remember this. and i agree. had IAB said "this specification is
inadequate, let's get firewall traversal working before we publish",
rather than "it is heretical and must not be done", a lot of pain and
waste would have been avoided.

> ...  Lots of people are implementing sending/receiving DNS 
> queries/responses over HTTPS.

since i did it myself (https://github.com/BII-Lab/DNSoverHTTP) years
before DoH was thought of, i can scarcely disagree.

> DoH simply codifies one way of doing it so that network managers,
> software developers, etc., have a chance to develop management
> systems for it.


really? "simply"? i don't think it's that simple. here's the part of RFC 
8484 that i would have expected to cause a "discuss" event in IESG 
before allowing publication:

<<Two primary use cases were considered during this protocol's 
development.  These use cases are preventing on-path devices from 
interfering with DNS operations, ...>>

that's not a simple thing. IESG should have said, "that part is 
problematic, please make this protocol optional for the network 
operators and controllable their on-path devices."

by putting that text in and leaving it in, this becomes a political 
project not a technical one. IESG had the ability to say, please find a 
better way to solve this problem, that disenfranchises nobody.

as it happens, nothing stops a web browser or other such client from 
using DoT, and it's possible that the right answer was to say, DoT will 
answer every technical need that this RFC describes, but none of its 
political needs, and we don't want to be in the politics business.

to validate whether RFC 8484's goal is political, let's ponder whether 
the document would have been perfectly unhurt by the non-enumeration of 
this use case. i think yes. so, why mention it?

>> i'd like the same level of freedom when it comes to how DNS is
>> served.
> 
> Then force the folks on your network to install a cert so you can
> filter out DoH.  Contrary to your assertion, I doubt netflow will let
> you discriminate between good and evil. You have to have visibility
> to do that.
i have embedded devices which don't let me install certs inside them, 
and i don't think i'm alone. the general name for what you're describing 
is "web application firewall" and it simply breaks anything that won't 
cooperate -- which is the policy i'm going to need, if any so-called 
"public DNS" server shares a DoH responder address with any other 
service i care about. this remains to be seen. the market will help decide.

i'm surprised and fascinated by your vision of what my security needs 
are -- even though you have misstated them here -- but you're wrong on 
the facts, and the economics. if you are willing to spend the serious 
effort it would take to fully engage with the lived experience of modern 
CISO's, then we should take that topic up 1x1.

-- 
P Vixie


From nobody Tue Feb 12 17:30:18 2019
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Subject: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update-05.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Domain Name System Operations WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Algorithm Implementation Requirements and Usage Guidance for DNSSEC
        Authors         : Paul Wouters
                          Ondrej Sury
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update-05.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2019-02-12

Abstract:
   The DNSSEC protocol makes use of various cryptographic algorithms in
   order to provide authentication of DNS data and proof of non-
   existence.  To ensure interoperability between DNS resolvers and DNS
   authoritative servers, it is necessary to specify a set of algorithm
   implementation requirements and usage guidelines to ensure that there
   is at least one algorithm that all implementations support.  This
   document defines the current algorithm implementation requirements
   and usage guidance for DNSSEC.  This document obsoletes [RFC6944].


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update-05
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update-05


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Tue Feb 12 17:43:34 2019
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From: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] AD Review of draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update
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On Mon, 11 Feb 2019, Warren Kumari wrote:

> Section 1.2.Â  Updating Algorithm Requirement Levels says:
> "[RFC2119] considers the term SHOULD equivalent to RECOMMENDED, and
> Â  Â SHOULD NOT equivalent to NOT RECOMMENDED.Â  The authors of this
> Â  Â document have chosen to use the terms RECOMMENDED and NOT
> Â  Â RECOMMENDED, as this more clearly expresses the recommendations to
> Â  Â implementers."
> 
> Actually, RFC2119 doesn't really contain NOT RECOMMENDED --- but, RFC8174 ("Ambiguity of Uppercase vs Lowercase in RFC 2119 Key Words"),
> which updates RFC2119 *does*.Â 
> 
> Can the authors please resubmit with the new boilerplate from RFC8174 in SectionÂ 2 (Conventions Used in This Document) and I'll kick off IETF
> LC.

done:

https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update-05

Paul


From nobody Tue Feb 12 22:03:39 2019
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UGF1bA0KIA0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18N
CkROU09QIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KRE5TT1BAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3Jn
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charse=
t=3DISO-8859-1"><style>body { line-height: 1.5; }blockquote { margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.5em; }body { font-size: 10.5pt; fo=
nt-family: ????; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 1.5; }</style></head><b=
ody>=0A<div><span></span>that's&nbsp;ture. but&nbsp;in&nbsp;my&nbsp;view,&=
nbsp;if&nbsp;the&nbsp;trust&nbsp;chain&nbsp;is&nbsp;built,&nbsp;we&nbsp;ca=
n&nbsp;ensure&nbsp;a&nbsp;resolver(or&nbsp;a&nbsp;cache)&nbsp;is&nbsp;alwa=
ys&nbsp;talking&nbsp;to&nbsp;a&nbsp;identified&nbsp;server&nbsp;and&nbsp;t=
he&nbsp;channel&nbsp;is&nbsp;always&nbsp;secure,&nbsp;then&nbsp;the&nbsp;c=
ontent&nbsp;could&nbsp;not&nbsp;be&nbsp;tampered.</div>=0A<div><br></div><=
hr style=3D"width: 210px; height: 1px;" color=3D"#b5c4df" size=3D"1" align=
=3D"left">=0A<div><span><div style=3D"MARGIN: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: verdana; =
FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><div>zuopeng@cnnic.cn</div></div></span></div>=0A<blockqu=
ote style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.5em;"><di=
v>&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;pad=
ding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><div style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 8px; PADDING-LEFT: 8p=
x; FONT-SIZE: 12px;FONT-FAMILY:tahoma;COLOR:#000000; BACKGROUND: #efefef; =
PADDING-BOTTOM: 8px; PADDING-TOP: 8px"><div><b>From:</b>&nbsp;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:paul@nohats.ca">Paul Wouters</a></div><div><b>Date:</b>&nbsp;2019-02=
-12&nbsp;22:07</div><div><b>To:</b>&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:zuopeng@cnnic.c=
n">zuopeng@cnnic.cn</a></div><div><b>CC:</b>&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:dnsop@=
ietf.org">dnsop</a></div><div><b>Subject:</b>&nbsp;Re: [DNSOP] extension o=
f DoH to authoritative servers</div></div></div><div><div>On Tue, 12 Feb 2=
019, zuopeng@cnnic.cn wrote:</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>&gt;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; In this way, the whole DNS is built on HTTPS which makes DNS mo=
re secure. DNSSEC is not necessary anymore and many other</div>=0A<div>&gt=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; problems like fragmentation also will not exist.</div>=0A<di=
v>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>This idea is similar to DNScurve. The problem is tha=
t channel security</div>=0A<div>does not help when you have an infrastruct=
ure of DNS caches, as nothing</div>=0A<div>in the cache can be used to val=
idate the content.</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>djb's solution to this=
 problem was to obsolete the cache, and at the CCC</div>=0A<div>conference=
 he then threw around numbers that "claimed" caching is not</div>=0A<div>w=
orking or needed, and was proven wrong by me showing some cache</div>=0A<d=
iv>percentages of real DNS servers.</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>DNSSE=
C provides origin protection, and digital signatures are needed,</div>=0A<=
div>which TLS does not offer.</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>Paul</div>=
=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>______________________________________________=
_</div>=0A<div>DNSOP mailing list</div>=0A<div>DNSOP@ietf.org</div>=0A<div=
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</div>=0A</div></blockquote>=
=0A</body></html>
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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 14:08:19 +0800
From: "zuopeng@cnnic.cn" <zuopeng@cnnic.cn>
To: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
Cc: dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
References: <2019021215560470371417@cnnic.cn>,  <20190212083908.w5cwgtmypkjwmqnd@nic.fr>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/WIy03br3XwTt8Pq6ncUqtkA9amc>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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dGhlIHJlc29sdmVyLg0K

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charse=
t=3DISO-8859-1"><style>body { line-height: 1.5; }blockquote { margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.5em; }body { font-size: 10.5pt; fo=
nt-family: ????; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 1.5; }</style></head><b=
ody>=0A<div><span></span>i prefer DoH because it can identify a server we =
are talking to and the content is encrypted.&nbsp;</div>=0A<div><br></div>=
<hr style=3D"width: 210px; height: 1px;" color=3D"#b5c4df" size=3D"1" alig=
n=3D"left">=0A<div><span><div style=3D"MARGIN: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: verdana;=
 FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><div>zuopeng@cnnic.cn</div></div></span></div>=0A<blockq=
uote style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.5em;"><d=
iv>&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;pa=
dding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><div style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 8px; PADDING-LEFT: 8=
px; FONT-SIZE: 12px;FONT-FAMILY:tahoma;COLOR:#000000; BACKGROUND: #efefef;=
 PADDING-BOTTOM: 8px; PADDING-TOP: 8px"><div><b>From:</b>&nbsp;<a href=3D"=
mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr">Stephane Bortzmeyer</a></div><div><b>Date:</b>&n=
bsp;2019-02-12&nbsp;16:39</div><div><b>To:</b>&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:zuop=
eng@cnnic.cn">zuopeng@cnnic.cn</a></div><div><b>CC:</b>&nbsp;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dnsop@ietf.org">dnsop</a></div><div><b>Subject:</b>&nbsp;Re: extensio=
n of DoH to authoritative servers</div></div></div><div><div>On Tue, Feb 1=
2, 2019 at 03:56:04PM +0800,</div>=0A<div> zuopeng@cnnic.cn &lt;zuopeng@cn=
nic.cn&gt; wrote </div>=0A<div> a message of 546 lines which said:</div>=
=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>&gt; I am considering extending the DoH protoc=
al to authoritative</div>=0A<div>&gt; servers.</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=
=0A<div>Why DoH and not DoT? DoH is useful because 1) port 853 may be bloc=
ked</div>=0A<div>at the edge of the network 2) applications running in a W=
eb browser</div>=0A<div>may need DNS data. But these two reasons do not ap=
ply to your use case</div>=0A<div>1) the resolver is often closer to the c=
ore and there is less risk</div>=0A<div>that 853 is blocked 2) there is no=
 Web browser on the resolver.</div>=0A</div></blockquote>=0A</body></html>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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On 12/02/2019 09:34, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 03:56:04PM +0800,
>  zuopeng@cnnic.cn <zuopeng@cnnic.cn> wrote 
>  a message of 546 lines which said:
> 
>> DNSSEC is not necessary anymore
> 
> This is clearly false. DoH provides _channel security_ DNSSEC provides
> _content security_ (or object security). This is a very important
> difference in security (we have JWS even if we have HTTPS, for
> instance).

Indeed, you might want to look at one of the presentations by Willem
Toorop and myself.  In respect of channel security, DoH and DoT with
authenticated TLS are similar.

- RIPE 76 DNS WG
  https://ripe76.ripe.net/presentations/56-sunrise-DoT-sunset-DNSSEC.pdf
  https://ripe76.ripe.net/archives/video/67

- ICANN DNS Symposium 2018

https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/presentation-sunrise-dns-tls-sunset-dnssec-13jul18-en.pdf

- APNIC/RIPE blog post: Sunrise DNS over TLS, sunset DNSSEC?
  https://blog.apnic.net/2018/08/17/sunrise-dns-over-tls-sunset-dnssec/

https://labs.ripe.net/Members/willem_toorop/sunrise-dns-over-tls-sunset-dnssec

-- Benno

-- 
Benno J. Overeinder
NLnet Labs
https://www.nlnetlabs.nl/


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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 13:30:32 +0100 (CET)
From: Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Cc: dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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> Il 12 febbraio 2019 alle 22.00 Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> ha scritto:=
=20
>=20
> What I am trying to point out is that the situation with DoH is a symptom=
 of the problem you are not talking about, not the only instance of it.
> You seem to be asserting that DoH is special among all other misuses of p=
ort 443.   But you haven=E2=80=99t explained why it is special.   This is w=
hat I was trying to tease out with my initial response to what you said.

Well, DoH has a couple of very special features:

- it affects name resolution, which is the initial step for almost everythi=
ng you do over the Internet;

- apparently, it will be deployed by default to the entire mankind or so.

It is quite different than some smart users or some specific applications u=
sing HTTPS (or VPNs) to bypass the local network operator and/or the local =
jurisdiction. In technical terms it might not be different, but in business=
, policy and political terms this makes all the difference.

Ciao,
 --=20
Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com=20
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy


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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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On 2/13/19 7:08 AM, zuopeng@cnnic.cn wrote:
> i prefer DoH because it can identify a server we are talking to and
> the content is encrypted.

These two points are the same with DoT.  (encryption and SNI)



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On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 02:08:19PM +0800,
 zuopeng@cnnic.cn <zuopeng@cnnic.cn> wrote 
 a message of 58 lines which said:

> i prefer DoH because it can identify a server we are talking to and the content is encrypted.

To learn about DoT, I suggest you read RFC 7858.


From nobody Wed Feb 13 05:48:10 2019
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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 14:44:08 +0100
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: "zuopeng@cnnic.cn" <zuopeng@cnnic.cn>
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On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 02:03:26PM +0800,
 zuopeng@cnnic.cn <zuopeng@cnnic.cn> wrote 
 a message of 103 lines which said:

> that's ture. but in my view, if the trust chain is built, we can
> ensure a resolver(or a cache) is always talking to a identified
> server and the channel is always secure, then the content could not
> be tampered.

Several emails already mentioned cases where it is not true (relaying
through a forwarder - transitive trust is hard - or secondary name
servers mnaged by a different organisation - a common use case).


From nobody Wed Feb 13 06:23:12 2019
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On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 10:14:19AM -0800,
 David Conrad <drc@virtualized.org> wrote 
 a message of 100 lines which said:

> Why donâ€™t you force folks on your network to install a certificate
> that would allow you to inspect TCP/443 outbound traffic?

There are probably many connected things where this is not
possible. But I don't think blocking DNS resolution (through DoT
blocking or DoH bashing) would help: malware learned a long time ago
how to work even in the most hostile (for them) environment, so
connected things will learn to do the same, in the same way that they
use STUN, TURN and other tricks to work around NAT.

So, I don't think Paul Vixie's plan will work: either you connect only
trusted devices to your network, or you block all outbound traffic for
nodes that must stay local (a thermometer or a camera MUST NOT talk to
the outside world at all).

(And, yes, I know, that today's connected devices talk a lot to remote
nodes. But it is evil.)





From nobody Wed Feb 13 06:23:21 2019
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On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 10:34:19AM -0800,
 Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote 
 a message of 15 lines which said:

> > How can you be sure folks on your network arenâ€™t already tunneling
> > their evil deeds through HTTPS?
> 
> netflow. such traffic _looks_ abnormal.
> 
> the deliberate design premise of DoH is that it look normal.

If TLS does its job, how can you make the difference between DoH and
EvilNonStandardNameResolutionProtocolRunningOverTLS?

There are some metadata that can help (such as sizes and timing) but
IETF continue to develop tricks like padding to make them as
inefficient as possible.

I would really like to know how you could detect
EvilNonStandardNameResolutionProtocolRunningOverTLS but not DoH?




From nobody Wed Feb 13 06:33:12 2019
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On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 01:48:36PM -0800,
 Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote 
 a message of 46 lines which said:

> increased for political reasons.

There is nothing wrong with political reasons. Mass surveillance is a
political problem (privacy). DNS lies by ISPs is a political problem
(network neutrality). It is perfectly normal that IETF develops stuff
for political reasons. (Everybody have read RFC 8280?)

> google, ibm, cloudflare, cisco, and other so-called "public dns"
> providers will at some point choose whether to offer DoH from shared
> addresses, making those shared addresses into risks that the rest of
> us have to manage differently; or whether to dedicate DoH to well
> known addresses that can be outright blocked.

It seems to be an issue with DoC
<https://blog.powerdns.com/2019/02/07/the-big-dns-privacy-debate-at-fosdem/>,
not really DoH itself.


From nobody Wed Feb 13 06:38:11 2019
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On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 02:18:39PM -0800,
 Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote 
 a message of 20 lines which said:

> > Right. Â  So whatâ€™s to stop other malicious traffic from doing the
> > same thing?
> 
> lack of an IETF-approved standard with planned implementation by a
> half dozen tech giants, means that other malicious traffic will not
> be able to hide in the crowd, and can be made subject to policy, and
> complaints.

An IETF standard make things easier for the implementer and increases
the chances of success (that's why we develop standards, after all)
but it is not the only way to "massive deployment including half dozen
tech giants". So, not having DoH would not stop evil name resolution.

> i want DoT to be used instead,

Then petition the many hotspots, hotels, cafes, corporations, etc,
that block everything but 443. It is because of them that we need DoH,
not just DoT.


From nobody Wed Feb 13 06:38:18 2019
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On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 02:45:54PM -0800,
 Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote 
 a message of 21 lines which said:

> i remember a time when the IAB would have said "no" to an internet
> standard which mandated deliberate loss of control by network
> operators.

Giving the many attacks against network neutrality, it seems
reasonable to me to develop techniques that make these attacks less
easy.


From nobody Wed Feb 13 06:43:12 2019
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 03:32:37PM -0800,
 Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote 
 a message of 75 lines which said:

> by putting that text in and leaving it in, this becomes a political
> project not a technical one.

Everything we do is political, the Internet itself is a political
project. Thinking that communication is a good thing is political.

> as it happens, nothing stops a web browser or other such client from
> using DoT, and it's possible that the right answer was to say, DoT
> will answer every technical need that this RFC describes, but none
> of its political needs, and we don't want to be in the politics
> business.

DoT will be blocked in many networks, not DoH. That's why we need
both. DoT is technically better, DoH is more realistic in many
environments.

This choice is hardly limited to DNS. It is partly for the same reason
that we have whois and RDAP.


From nobody Wed Feb 13 08:19:59 2019
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On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 02:26:40AM -0800,
 internet-drafts@ietf.org <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote 
 a message of 47 lines which said:

>         Title           : Local Naming Protocol -- LNP (v.1.0)
>         Author          : Christian Schaller
> 	Filename        : draft-schaller-dnsop-lnp-00.txt

You do not explain why you created this protocol when mDNS (RFC 6762)
and LLMNR (RFC 4795) exist. Without this explanation, we cannot see
the point of your protocol.


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On Feb 12, 2019, at 10:03 PM, zuopeng@cnnic.cn wrote:
> that's ture. but in my view, if the trust chain is built, we can =
ensure a resolver(or a cache) is always talking to a identified server =
and the channel is always secure, then the content could not be =
tampered.

Your model of how the DNS actually works is too simplistic.

Regards,
-drc


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From nobody Wed Feb 13 11:29:32 2019
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Subject: [DNSOP] Last Call: <draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update-05.txt> (Algorithm Implementation Requirements and Usage Guidance for DNSSEC) to Proposed Standard
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The IESG has received a request from the Domain Name System Operations WG
(dnsop) to consider the following document: - 'Algorithm Implementation
Requirements and Usage Guidance for DNSSEC'
  <draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update-05.txt> as Proposed Standard

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final
comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2019-02-27. Exceptionally, comments may be
sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of
the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract


   The DNSSEC protocol makes use of various cryptographic algorithms in
   order to provide authentication of DNS data and proof of non-
   existence.  To ensure interoperability between DNS resolvers and DNS
   authoritative servers, it is necessary to specify a set of algorithm
   implementation requirements and usage guidelines to ensure that there
   is at least one algorithm that all implementations support.  This
   document defines the current algorithm implementation requirements
   and usage guidance for DNSSEC.  This document obsoletes [RFC6944].




The file can be obtained via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update/

IESG discussion can be tracked via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update/ballot/


No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.





From nobody Wed Feb 13 12:22:58 2019
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To: "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>
From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Subject: [DNSOP] my chromecast ultra would not start until i began answering 8.8.8.8
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google, this is bogus as hell. my dhcp server gives you dns servers to 
use. please don't make me route and answer 8.8.8.8 just to watch youtube.

> [71] 2019-02-13 16:39:40.548137 [#68 vtnet0 4095] \
>         [24.104.150.186].56915 [8.8.8.8].53  \
>         dns QUERY,NOERROR,7357,rd \
>         1 lh3.googleusercontent.com,IN,A 0 0 0
> [71] 2019-02-13 16:39:40.548210 [#69 vtnet0 4095] \
>         [24.104.150.186].56915 [8.8.8.8].53  \
>         dns QUERY,NOERROR,49247,rd \
>         1 lh3.googleusercontent.com,IN,AAAA 0 0 0

(no, this device i've paid for, will NOT be allowed to send you any 
information, other than what i personally approve, which will never 
include DNS traffic. if you don't like that deal, buy it back from me 
and i'll find some other video appliance that doesn't twist my arm.)

-- 
P Vixie


From nobody Wed Feb 13 12:39:42 2019
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From: Robert Edmonds <edmonds@mycre.ws>
To: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] my chromecast ultra would not start until i began answering 8.8.8.8
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Paul Vixie wrote:
> google, this is bogus as hell. my dhcp server gives you dns servers to use.
> please don't make me route and answer 8.8.8.8 just to watch youtube.
> 
> > [71] 2019-02-13 16:39:40.548137 [#68 vtnet0 4095] \
> >         [24.104.150.186].56915 [8.8.8.8].53  \
> >         dns QUERY,NOERROR,7357,rd \
> >         1 lh3.googleusercontent.com,IN,A 0 0 0
> > [71] 2019-02-13 16:39:40.548210 [#69 vtnet0 4095] \
> >         [24.104.150.186].56915 [8.8.8.8].53  \
> >         dns QUERY,NOERROR,49247,rd \
> >         1 lh3.googleusercontent.com,IN,AAAA 0 0 0
> 
> (no, this device i've paid for, will NOT be allowed to send you any
> information, other than what i personally approve, which will never include
> DNS traffic. if you don't like that deal, buy it back from me and i'll find
> some other video appliance that doesn't twist my arm.)

Are you looking for https://support.google.com/chromecast/contactflow ?

-- 
Robert Edmonds


From nobody Wed Feb 13 13:14:42 2019
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] my chromecast ultra would not start until i began answering 8.8.8.8
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Robert Edmonds wrote on 2019-02-13 12:39:
>> (no, this device i've paid for, will NOT be allowed to send you any
>> information, other than what i personally approve, which will never include
>> DNS traffic. if you don't like that deal, buy it back from me and i'll find
>> some other video appliance that doesn't twist my arm.)
> 
> Are you looking for https://support.google.com/chromecast/contactflow ?

no. they know exactly what they're doing, and it's not an accident. 
reporting it to their support team will waste their time and mine.

however, i don't know yet whether they're ready to own their sh*t in 
public, or whether they'll enjoy being named and shamed. so, here i am.

-- 
P Vixie


From nobody Wed Feb 13 13:16:48 2019
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From: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] my chromecast ultra would not start until i began answering 8.8.8.8
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> On Feb 13, 2019, at 4:14 PM, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:
>=20
> no. they know exactly what they're doing, and it's not an accident. =
reporting it to their support team will waste their time and mine.
>=20
> however, i don't know yet whether they're ready to own their sh*t in =
public, or whether they'll enjoy being named and shamed. so, here i am.

And ours as well.

- Jared=


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From: "Henderson, Karl" <KHenderson@verisign.com>
To: "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/xPXdrvrt9y8DJuOYpNcQT2ZjncU>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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On 2/13/19 10:45 PM, Henderson, Karl wrote:
>
> Couldnâ€™t DoT also run over port 443 just like DOH -â€“ similar to whatâ€™s
> been proposed in this
> draft?:Â https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dkg-dprive-demux-dns-http/
>
Technically you can run DoT on whatever port you like.Â  I believe the
port number argument and non-recognizability from https are mainly red
herrings when comparing DoH with DoT.Â  And there are more, as the two
protocols share almost all properties.

Example: with knot-resolver it's easy - you just add @443, either on
side of server and/or on the side of forwarding over TLS.

--Vladimir


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/13/19 10:45 PM, Henderson, Karl
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:C5525DE2-DCF3-43E5-8C41-BAA58049DC3A@verisign.com">
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Couldnâ€™t DoT also
            run over port 443 just like DOH -â€“ similar to whatâ€™s been
            proposed in this draft?:<span class="apple-converted-space">Â </span><a
href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dkg-dprive-demux-dns-http/"
              moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#954F72">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dkg-dprive-demux-dns-http/</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p>Technically you can run DoT on whatever port you like.Â  I believe
      the port number argument and non-recognizability from https are
      mainly red herrings when comparing DoH with DoT.Â  And there are
      more, as the two protocols share almost all properties.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Example: with knot-resolver it's easy - you just add @443, either
      on side of server and/or on the side of forwarding over TLS.</p>
    <p>--Vladimir<br>
      <br>
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From nobody Wed Feb 13 13:51:35 2019
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Subject: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-wessels-dns-zone-digest-06.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Domain Name System Operations WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Message Digest for DNS Zones
        Authors         : Duane Wessels
                          Piet Barber
                          Matt Weinberg
                          Warren Kumari
                          Wes Hardaker
	Filename        : draft-wessels-dns-zone-digest-06.txt
	Pages           : 27
	Date            : 2019-02-13

Abstract:
   This document describes an experimental protocol and new DNS Resource
   Record that can be used to provide a message digest over DNS zone
   data.  The ZONEMD Resource Record conveys the message digest data in
   the zone itself.  When a zone publisher includes an ZONEMD record,
   recipients can verify the zone contents for accuracy and
   completeness.  This provides assurance that received zone data
   matches published data, regardless of how the zone data has been
   transmitted and received.

   ZONEMD is not designed to replace DNSSEC.  Whereas DNSSEC protects
   individual RRSets (DNS data with fine granularity), ZONEMD protects
   protects a zone's data as a whole, whether consumed by authoritative
   name servers, recursive name servers, or any other applications.

   As specified at this time, ZONEMD is not designed for use in large,
   dynamic zones due to the time and resources required for digest
   calculation.  The ZONEMD record described in this document includes
   fields reserved for future work to support large, dynamic zones.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wessels-dns-zone-digest/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wessels-dns-zone-digest-06
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wessels-dns-zone-digest-06

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-wessels-dns-zone-digest-06


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Wed Feb 13 13:56:04 2019
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From: "Wessels, Duane" <dwessels@verisign.com>
To: "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-wessels-dns-zone-digest-06.txt
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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 21:55:50 +0000
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-wessels-dns-zone-digest-06.txt
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The only change to this document since -05 is to note that ZONEMD has =
been allocated RR type code 63 by IANA following an expert review back =
in December.

DW


> On Feb 13, 2019, at 1:51 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Domain Name System Operations WG of =
the IETF.
>=20
>        Title           : Message Digest for DNS Zones
>        Authors         : Duane Wessels
>                          Piet Barber
>                          Matt Weinberg
>                          Warren Kumari
>                          Wes Hardaker
> 	Filename        : draft-wessels-dns-zone-digest-06.txt
> 	Pages           : 27
> 	Date            : 2019-02-13
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document describes an experimental protocol and new DNS =
Resource
>   Record that can be used to provide a message digest over DNS zone
>   data.  The ZONEMD Resource Record conveys the message digest data in
>   the zone itself.  When a zone publisher includes an ZONEMD record,
>   recipients can verify the zone contents for accuracy and
>   completeness.  This provides assurance that received zone data
>   matches published data, regardless of how the zone data has been
>   transmitted and received.
>=20
>   ZONEMD is not designed to replace DNSSEC.  Whereas DNSSEC protects
>   individual RRSets (DNS data with fine granularity), ZONEMD protects
>   protects a zone's data as a whole, whether consumed by authoritative
>   name servers, recursive name servers, or any other applications.
>=20
>   As specified at this time, ZONEMD is not designed for use in large,
>   dynamic zones due to the time and resources required for digest
>   calculation.  The ZONEMD record described in this document includes
>   fields reserved for future work to support large, dynamic zones.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wessels-dns-zone-digest/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wessels-dns-zone-digest-06
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wessels-dns-zone-digest-06
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wessels-dns-zone-digest-06
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop


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From: Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 13:56:29 -0800
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Subject: [DNSOP] DoH vs DoT vs network operators, and requirements/goals?
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I've been thinking a bit about some of the issues raised in the recent DoH
discussion.

What I am wondering about, is what the goals of different parties might be.

I am also wondering whether some available standards (or additions to some
of those standards) might be helpful.

Finding particular middle ground technical solutions to balance the
different goals (hard requirements vs philosophical issues vs real-world
things), is what I think is a productive direction to have discussions.

Some of the issues may need to be examined a bit closer. E.g. distrust is
pretty vague. There are multiple underlying issues, e.g. privacy ("I don't
trust you to know stuff"), or data integrity ("I don't trust you to not
mangle data"), or surveillance ("I trust him more than I trust you, because
he doesn't keep logs longer than X hours").

I think the ability to separate out DNS from non-DNS traffic when the
transport is TLS on some commonly-used TCP port, is another issue.

Similarly, being able to identify end-points by name or by cert, and
possibly having the ability to act on that identification (permit/deny) is
another thing.

Are there other requirements/drivers on these issues, that are implied or
that might need to be considered?

Is there any need/desire to separate the transport from the actual DNS
resolution? Or would that add too much complexity with no obvious benefit?
Would anyone offer transport while allowing use of a third/fourth party DNS
resolver??

The technical things that might be worth looking at, that I can think of,
are:

   - New certificate use types (specific to only DNS, DoH, DoT,
   server/client etc?)
   - SNI
   - DNS server names (standardized or validated, or white-listed)
   - SRV stuff or similar
   - AH without any content encryption (Null cipher), allows channel
   integrity while letting network operator monitor view query/response
   traffic, e.g. for pseudo-RPZ functionality
   - Is there a DANE use case anywhere in here?

Sorry for the noise, if anyone isn't interested in this stuff.

Brian

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I&#39;ve been thinking a bit about some of the issues rais=
ed in the recent DoH discussion.<div><br></div><div>What I am wondering abo=
ut, is what the goals of different parties might be.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>I am also wondering whether some available standards (or additions to so=
me of those standards) might be helpful.</div><div><br></div><div>Finding p=
articular middle ground technical solutions to balance the different goals =
(hard requirements vs philosophical issues vs real-world things), is what I=
 think is a productive direction to have discussions.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Some of the issues may need to be examined a bit closer. E.g. distrust =
is pretty vague. There are multiple underlying issues, e.g. privacy (&quot;=
I don&#39;t trust you to know stuff&quot;), or data integrity (&quot;I don&=
#39;t trust you to not mangle data&quot;), or surveillance (&quot;I trust h=
im more than I trust you, because he doesn&#39;t keep logs longer than X ho=
urs&quot;).</div><div><br></div><div>I think the ability to separate out DN=
S from non-DNS traffic when the transport is TLS on some commonly-used TCP =
port, is another issue.</div><div><br></div><div>Similarly, being able to i=
dentify end-points by name or by cert, and possibly having the ability to a=
ct on that identification (permit/deny) is another thing.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Are there other requirements/drivers on these issues, that are impl=
ied or that might need to be considered?</div><div><br></div><div>Is there =
any need/desire to separate the transport from the actual DNS resolution? O=
r would that add too much complexity with no obvious benefit? Would anyone =
offer transport while allowing use of a third/fourth party DNS resolver??</=
div><div><br></div><div>The technical things that might be worth looking at=
, that I can think of, are:</div><div><ul><li>New certificate use types (sp=
ecific to only DNS, DoH, DoT, server/client etc?)</li><li>SNI</li><li>DNS s=
erver names (standardized or validated, or white-listed)</li><li>SRV stuff =
or similar</li><li>AH without any content encryption (Null cipher), allows =
channel integrity while letting network operator monitor view query/respons=
e traffic, e.g. for pseudo-RPZ functionality</li><li>Is there a DANE use ca=
se anywhere in here?</li></ul><div>Sorry for the noise, if anyone isn&#39;t=
 interested in this stuff.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Brian</div></div>

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From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 17:29:30 -0500
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] DoH vs DoT vs network operators, and requirements/goals?
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--00000000000075245b0581ce158e
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This discussion (and the other DoH ones) would probably be better handled
on the DoH mailing list -- https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh - so
that the DoH people are involved.

The DoH WG charter specifically says: "The working group will coordinate
with the DNSOP and INTAREA working groups
for input on DNS-over-HTTPS's impact on DNS operations and DNS semantics,
respectvely. In particular, DNSOP will be consulted for guidance on the
operational impacts that result from traditional host behaviors (i.e.,
stub-resolver to recursive-resolver interaction) being replaced with the
specified mechanism."

W

On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 4:56 PM Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I've been thinking a bit about some of the issues raised in the recent DoH
> discussion.
>
> What I am wondering about, is what the goals of different parties might be.
>
> I am also wondering whether some available standards (or additions to some
> of those standards) might be helpful.
>
> Finding particular middle ground technical solutions to balance the
> different goals (hard requirements vs philosophical issues vs real-world
> things), is what I think is a productive direction to have discussions.
>
> Some of the issues may need to be examined a bit closer. E.g. distrust is
> pretty vague. There are multiple underlying issues, e.g. privacy ("I don't
> trust you to know stuff"), or data integrity ("I don't trust you to not
> mangle data"), or surveillance ("I trust him more than I trust you, because
> he doesn't keep logs longer than X hours").
>
> I think the ability to separate out DNS from non-DNS traffic when the
> transport is TLS on some commonly-used TCP port, is another issue.
>
> Similarly, being able to identify end-points by name or by cert, and
> possibly having the ability to act on that identification (permit/deny) is
> another thing.
>
> Are there other requirements/drivers on these issues, that are implied or
> that might need to be considered?
>
> Is there any need/desire to separate the transport from the actual DNS
> resolution? Or would that add too much complexity with no obvious benefit?
> Would anyone offer transport while allowing use of a third/fourth party DNS
> resolver??
>
> The technical things that might be worth looking at, that I can think of,
> are:
>
>    - New certificate use types (specific to only DNS, DoH, DoT,
>    server/client etc?)
>    - SNI
>    - DNS server names (standardized or validated, or white-listed)
>    - SRV stuff or similar
>    - AH without any content encryption (Null cipher), allows channel
>    integrity while letting network operator monitor view query/response
>    traffic, e.g. for pseudo-RPZ functionality
>    - Is there a DANE use case anywhere in here?
>
> Sorry for the noise, if anyone isn't interested in this stuff.
>
> Brian
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>


-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in
the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of
pants.
   ---maf

--00000000000075245b0581ce158e
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:verdana,sans-serif">This discussion (and the other DoH ones) would=
 probably be better handled on the DoH mailing list --=C2=A0<a href=3D"http=
s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh" style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica=
,sans-serif">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh</a>=C2=A0- so that t=
he DoH people are involved.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">The DoH WG charter specifically sa=
ys: &quot;The working group will coordinate with the DNSOP and INTAREA work=
ing groups<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verda=
na,sans-serif">for input on DNS-over-HTTPS&#39;s impact on DNS operations a=
nd DNS semantics,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ve=
rdana,sans-serif">respectvely. In particular, DNSOP will be consulted for g=
uidance on the</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verda=
na,sans-serif">operational impacts that result from traditional host behavi=
ors (i.e.,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,s=
ans-serif">stub-resolver to recursive-resolver interaction) being replaced =
with the</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,san=
s-serif">specified mechanism.&quot;</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">W</div></div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 13, 2019=
 at 4:56 PM Brian Dickson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.peter.dickson@gmail.c=
om">brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">I&#39;ve been thinking a =
bit about some of the issues raised in the recent DoH discussion.<div><br><=
/div><div>What I am wondering about, is what the goals of different parties=
 might be.</div><div><br></div><div>I am also wondering whether some availa=
ble standards (or additions to some of those standards) might be helpful.</=
div><div><br></div><div>Finding particular middle ground technical solution=
s to balance the different goals (hard requirements vs philosophical issues=
 vs real-world things), is what I think is a productive direction to have d=
iscussions.</div><div><br></div><div>Some of the issues may need to be exam=
ined a bit closer. E.g. distrust is pretty vague. There are multiple underl=
ying issues, e.g. privacy (&quot;I don&#39;t trust you to know stuff&quot;)=
, or data integrity (&quot;I don&#39;t trust you to not mangle data&quot;),=
 or surveillance (&quot;I trust him more than I trust you, because he doesn=
&#39;t keep logs longer than X hours&quot;).</div><div><br></div><div>I thi=
nk the ability to separate out DNS from non-DNS traffic when the transport =
is TLS on some commonly-used TCP port, is another issue.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Similarly, being able to identify end-points by name or by cert, and=
 possibly having the ability to act on that identification (permit/deny) is=
 another thing.</div><div><br></div><div>Are there other requirements/drive=
rs on these issues, that are implied or that might need to be considered?</=
div><div><br></div><div>Is there any need/desire to separate the transport =
from the actual DNS resolution? Or would that add too much complexity with =
no obvious benefit? Would anyone offer transport while allowing use of a th=
ird/fourth party DNS resolver??</div><div><br></div><div>The technical thin=
gs that might be worth looking at, that I can think of, are:</div><div><ul>=
<li>New certificate use types (specific to only DNS, DoH, DoT, server/clien=
t etc?)</li><li>SNI</li><li>DNS server names (standardized or validated, or=
 white-listed)</li><li>SRV stuff or similar</li><li>AH without any content =
encryption (Null cipher), allows channel integrity while letting network op=
erator monitor view query/response traffic, e.g. for pseudo-RPZ functionali=
ty</li><li>Is there a DANE use case anywhere in here?</li></ul><div>Sorry f=
or the noise, if anyone isn&#39;t interested in this stuff.</div></div><div=
><br></div><div>Brian</div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
DNSOP mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DNSOP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">DNSOP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature">I don&#39;t think the execution is relevant when=
 it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.<br>This is like putting ra=
bid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen tho=
se particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf<=
/div>

--00000000000075245b0581ce158e--


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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charse=
t=3DISO-8859-1"><style>body { line-height: 1.5; }blockquote { margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.5em; }body { font-size: 10.5pt; fo=
nt-family: ????; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 1.5; }</style></head><b=
ody>=0A<div><span></span><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-co=
lor: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);">i&nbsp;think&nbsp;both&nbsp;DNSSEC&nbsp;and&nbsp;D=
oH(or&nbsp;DoT)&nbsp;can&nbsp;protect&nbsp;DNS&nbsp;data,&nbsp;the&nbsp;fu=
ndmental&nbsp;point&nbsp;it&nbsp;to&nbsp;establish&nbsp;the&nbsp;trust&nbs=
p;chain&nbsp;and&nbsp;transit&nbsp;trust.&nbsp;Regarding&nbsp;the&nbsp;cas=
e"secondary&nbsp;name&nbsp;servers&nbsp;mnaged&nbsp;by&nbsp;a&nbsp;differe=
nt&nbsp;organisation",&nbsp;the&nbsp;servers&nbsp;can&nbsp;publish&nbsp;se=
veral&nbsp;TLSAs&nbsp;to&nbsp;distingush&nbsp;them.<br><br></span></div><d=
iv><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);=
">This&nbsp;idea&nbsp;is&nbsp;just&nbsp;a&nbsp;sketch&nbsp;model&nbsp;and&=
nbsp;provides&nbsp;another&nbsp;option&nbsp;for&nbsp;DNS&nbsp;security&nbs=
p;and&nbsp;privacy.&nbsp;Transiting&nbsp;trust&nbsp;is&nbsp;hard&nbsp;but&=
nbsp;may&nbsp;be&nbsp;accomplished&nbsp;in&nbsp;the&nbsp;future.&nbsp;The&=
nbsp;deployment&nbsp;of&nbsp;DNSSEC&nbsp;also&nbsp;takes&nbsp;a&nbsp;long&=
nbsp;time&nbsp;and&nbsp;is&nbsp;still&nbsp;in&nbsp;progress.&nbsp;<br></sp=
an></div>=0A<div><br></div><hr style=3D"width: 210px; height: 1px;" color=
=3D"#b5c4df" size=3D"1" align=3D"left">=0A<div><span><div style=3D"MARGIN:=
 10px; FONT-FAMILY: verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><div>zuopeng@cnnic.cn</div><=
/div></span></div>=0A<blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: =
0px; margin-left: 0.5em;"><div>&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"border:none;borde=
r-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><div style=3D"PADDING=
-RIGHT: 8px; PADDING-LEFT: 8px; FONT-SIZE: 12px;FONT-FAMILY:tahoma;COLOR:#=
000000; BACKGROUND: #efefef; PADDING-BOTTOM: 8px; PADDING-TOP: 8px"><div><=
b>From:</b>&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr">Stephane Bortzmeyer<=
/a></div><div><b>Date:</b>&nbsp;2019-02-13&nbsp;21:44</div><div><b>To:</b>=
&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:zuopeng@cnnic.cn">zuopeng@cnnic.cn</a></div><div><=
b>CC:</b>&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:dnsop@ietf.org">dnsop</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:paul@nohats.ca">Paul Wouters</a></div><div><b>Subject:</b>&nbsp;Re: [D=
NSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers</div></div></div><div><div=
>On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 02:03:26PM +0800,</div>=0A<div> zuopeng@cnnic.cn =
&lt;zuopeng@cnnic.cn&gt; wrote </div>=0A<div> a message of 103 lines which=
 said:</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>&gt; that's ture. but in my view, =
if the trust chain is built, we can</div>=0A<div>&gt; ensure a resolver(or=
 a cache) is always talking to a identified</div>=0A<div>&gt; server and t=
he channel is always secure, then the content could not</div>=0A<div>&gt; =
be tampered.</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>Several emails already menti=
oned cases where it is not true (relaying</div>=0A<div>through a forwarder=
 - transitive trust is hard - or secondary name</div>=0A<div>servers mnage=
d by a different organisation - a common use case).</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</d=
iv>=0A<div>_______________________________________________</div>=0A<div>DN=
SOP mailing list</div>=0A<div>DNSOP@ietf.org</div>=0A<div>https://www.ietf=
.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</div>=0A</div></blockquote>=0A</body></html>
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From nobody Wed Feb 13 23:34:19 2019
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Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 02:34:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
To: "zuopeng@cnnic.cn" <zuopeng@cnnic.cn>
cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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On Thu, 14 Feb 2019, zuopeng@cnnic.cn wrote:

> This idea is just a sketch model and provides another option for DNS security and privacy. Transiting trust is hard but may be accomplished in the future. T
> he deployment of DNSSEC also takes a long time and is still in progress. 

No. It simply will break applications. For example, the libreswan IKE
daemon using DNSSEC will use the system's forwarder and perform full
DNSSEC validation, without having any idea of the chain of forwarders.
It does not need to, because it is using proper DNSSEC validation.

Your proposal of using transport security implies your node can always
talk to any worldwide DNS server. That is not the case in most networks.

Paul


From nobody Wed Feb 13 23:50:24 2019
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References: <2019021215560470371417@cnnic.cn> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902120846480.18026@bofh.nohats.ca> <201902131403257357123@cnnic.cn> <20190213134408.ri5iy42q7u7h37ui@sources.org> <201902141436144299614@cnnic.cn>
To: "zuopeng@cnnic.cn" <zuopeng@cnnic.cn>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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On 14 Feb 2019, at 06:36, zuopeng@cnnic.cn wrote:
>=20
> i think both DNSSEC and DoH(or DoT) can protect DNS data

It depends on your definition of =E2=80=9Cprotect=E2=80=9D. For some =
threats/attacks, DoH or DoT by themselves can=E2=80=99t protect DNS data =
- for instance a DoH or DoT server that intentionally or accidentally =
returns false data. DNSSEC can counter that. Provided the client can =
perform validation and the DoH or DoT server returns DNSSEC material in =
its responses. It might not always be wise to make these assumptions, =
especially client-side validation.

> Transiting trust is hard but may be accomplished in the future.

That simply won=E2=80=99t be possible until every DNS client does DNSSEC =
validation. Good luck with that.

> The deployment of DNSSEC also takes a long time and is still in =
progress.

Indeed. That=E2=80=99s yet another reason why transiting trust is hard.


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Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 09:05:08 +0100
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: =?utf-8?B?VmxhZGltw61yIMSMdW7DoXQ=?= <vladimir.cunat+ietf@nic.cz>
Cc: "Henderson, Karl" <KHenderson=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 10:51:00PM +0100,
 VladimÃ­r ÄŒunÃ¡t <vladimir.cunat+ietf@nic.cz> wrote 
 a message of 118 lines which said:

> Technically you can run DoT on whatever port you like.

> Example: with knot-resolver it's easy - you just add @443, either on
> side of server and/or on the side of forwarding over TLS.

The problem is that you cannot then share this port with HTTPS
services (the dkg draft on demultiplexing was abandoned, apparently
because it doesn't work). In a world of scarce IPv4 public addresses,
this is a serious problem.


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Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 16:11:20 +0800
From: "zuopeng@cnnic.cn" <zuopeng@cnnic.cn>
To: "Paul Wouters" <paul@nohats.ca>
Cc: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>,  dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
References: <2019021215560470371417@cnnic.cn>,  <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902120846480.18026@bofh.nohats.ca>,  <201902131403257357123@cnnic.cn>,  <20190213134408.ri5iy42q7u7h37ui@sources.org>,  <201902141436144299614@cnnic.cn>,  <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902140232160.19964@bofh.nohats.ca>
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charse=
t=3DISO-8859-1"><style>body { line-height: 1.5; }blockquote { margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.5em; }body { font-size: 10.5pt; fo=
nt-family: ????; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 1.5; }</style></head><b=
ody>=0A<div><span></span><br></div>=0A<div><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0,=
 0); background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);">No. i&nbsp;might&nbsp;did&nbsp;n=
ot&nbsp;explain&nbsp;it&nbsp;clearly.&nbsp;&nbsp;</span></div><div><span s=
tyle=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);"><br></sp=
an></div><div><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgba(0=
, 0, 0, 0);">Regarding&nbsp;connecting&nbsp;requirement,&nbsp;my&nbsp;prop=
osal&nbsp;is&nbsp;no&nbsp;different&nbsp;from&nbsp;existing&nbsp;DNS&nbsp;=
</span><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); font-size: 10.5p=
t; line-height: 1.5;">except&nbsp;the&nbsp;recursive&nbsp;server&nbsp;</sp=
an></div><div><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); font-size=
: 10.5pt; line-height: 1.5;">needs&nbsp;to&nbsp;talk&nbsp;to&nbsp;authorit=
ative&nbsp;server&nbsp;via&nbsp;HTTPS(or&nbsp;TLS)&nbsp;using&nbsp;the&nbs=
p;TLSA&nbsp;record.&nbsp;</span></div><div><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0,=
 0); background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);">The&nbsp;TLSA&nbsp;record&nbsp;c=
ontains&nbsp;child&nbsp;zone's(or&nbsp;the&nbsp;server&nbsp;hosting&nbsp;t=
hat&nbsp;child&nbsp;zone,&nbsp;those&nbsp;details&nbsp;can&nbsp;be&nbsp;di=
scussed&nbsp;in&nbsp;the&nbsp;future)</span></div><div><span style=3D"colo=
r: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);">&nbsp;public&nbsp;ke=
y&nbsp;and&nbsp;is&nbsp;published&nbsp;in&nbsp;the&nbsp;parent&nbsp;zone.&=
nbsp;</span></div><div><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-colo=
r: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);">&nbsp;I&nbsp;mean,&nbsp;for&nbsp;the&nbsp;authoritiv=
e&nbsp;servers,&nbsp;the&nbsp;trust&nbsp;chain&nbsp;can be built&nbsp;usin=
g&nbsp;TLSA&nbsp;other&nbsp;then&nbsp;DS. then a recursive server can ensu=
re<br></span></div><div>the data it receives in each step of resolving com=
es from an authenticated server and is encrypted.</div><hr style=3D"width:=
 210px; height: 1px;" color=3D"#b5c4df" size=3D"1" align=3D"left">=0A<div>=
<span><div style=3D"MARGIN: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><=
div>zuopeng@cnnic.cn</div></div></span></div>=0A<blockquote style=3D"margi=
n-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.5em;"><div>&nbsp;</div><div=
 style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm=
 0cm"><div style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 8px; PADDING-LEFT: 8px; FONT-SIZE: 12px=
;FONT-FAMILY:tahoma;COLOR:#000000; BACKGROUND: #efefef; PADDING-BOTTOM: 8p=
x; PADDING-TOP: 8px"><div><b>From:</b>&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:paul@nohats.=
ca">Paul Wouters</a></div><div><b>Date:</b>&nbsp;2019-02-14&nbsp;15:34</di=
v><div><b>To:</b>&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:zuopeng@cnnic.cn">zuopeng@cnnic.c=
n</a></div><div><b>CC:</b>&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr">Steph=
ane Bortzmeyer</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:dnsop@ietf.org">dnsop</a></div><div>=
<b>Subject:</b>&nbsp;Re: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative ser=
vers</div></div></div><div><div>On Thu, 14 Feb 2019, zuopeng@cnnic.cn wrot=
e:</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>&gt; This&nbsp;idea&nbsp;is&nbsp;just&=
nbsp;a&nbsp;sketch&nbsp;model&nbsp;and&nbsp;provides&nbsp;another&nbsp;opt=
ion&nbsp;for&nbsp;DNS&nbsp;security&nbsp;and&nbsp;privacy.&nbsp;Transiting=
&nbsp;trust&nbsp;is&nbsp;hard&nbsp;but&nbsp;may&nbsp;be&nbsp;accomplished&=
nbsp;in&nbsp;the&nbsp;future.&nbsp;T</div>=0A<div>&gt; he&nbsp;deployment&=
nbsp;of&nbsp;DNSSEC&nbsp;also&nbsp;takes&nbsp;a&nbsp;long&nbsp;time&nbsp;a=
nd&nbsp;is&nbsp;still&nbsp;in&nbsp;progress.&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</di=
v>=0A<div>No. It simply will break applications. For example, the libreswa=
n IKE</div>=0A<div>daemon using DNSSEC will use the system's forwarder and=
 perform full</div>=0A<div>DNSSEC validation, without having any idea of t=
he chain of forwarders.</div>=0A<div>It does not need to, because it is us=
ing proper DNSSEC validation.</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>Your propos=
al of using transport security implies your node can always</div>=0A<div>t=
alk to any worldwide DNS server. That is not the case in most networks.</d=
iv>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>Paul</div>=0A</div></blockquote>=0A</body><=
/html>
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From nobody Thu Feb 14 00:31:48 2019
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From: "zuopeng@cnnic.cn" <zuopeng@cnnic.cn>
To: "Jim Reid" <jim@rfc1035.com>
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References: <2019021215560470371417@cnnic.cn>,  <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902120846480.18026@bofh.nohats.ca>,  <201902131403257357123@cnnic.cn>,  <20190213134408.ri5iy42q7u7h37ui@sources.org>,  <201902141436144299614@cnnic.cn>,  <212516D2-110D-45DD-B77B-46FD2BA6FECA@rfc1035.com>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charse=
t=3DUTF-8"><style>body { line-height: 1.5; }blockquote { margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.5em; }body { font-size: 10.5pt; font-fa=
mily: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-heig=
ht: 1.5; }</style></head><body>=0A<div><span></span><br></div>=0A<div><spa=
n><div style=3D"MARGIN: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><div =
style=3D"font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91; font-size: 14p=
x; line-height: 21px;">&gt; for instance a DoH or DoT server that intentio=
nally or accidentally returns false data. DNSSEC can counter that.&nbsp;</=
div><div style=3D"font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91; font-=
size: 14px; line-height: 21px;">&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"font-family: =E5=
=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;">&n=
bsp;I dont understand why.</div><div style=3D"font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=
=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;">&nbsp;If a ser=
ver&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; line-height: 1.5; background-co=
lor: window;">intentionally</span><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; line-h=
eight: 1.5; background-color: window;">&nbsp;returns false data , it can f=
ake anything because it owns the private key, DNSSEC does not help either.=
&nbsp;</span></div><span style=3D"font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=
=E9=BB=91; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;"></span><div style=3D"font-=
family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91; font-size: 14px; line-height=
: 21px;">&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=
=85=E9=BB=91; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;">&gt; Indeed. That=E2=80=
=99s yet another reason why transiting trust is hard.</div><div style=3D"f=
ont-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91; font-size: 14px; line-he=
ight: 21px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=
=85=E9=BB=91; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;">YES. this proposal also=
 needs support from the root.</div></div></span></div><blockquote style=3D=
"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.5em;"><div>=0A<div>&n=
bsp;</div>=0A</div></blockquote>=0A</body></html>
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From nobody Thu Feb 14 00:33:17 2019
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Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 09:33:11 +0100
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: "zuopeng@cnnic.cn" <zuopeng@cnnic.cn>
Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
Message-ID: <20190214083311.2d6ncijynujoq6vc@nic.fr>
References: <2019021215560470371417@cnnic.cn> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902120846480.18026@bofh.nohats.ca> <201902131403257357123@cnnic.cn> <20190213134408.ri5iy42q7u7h37ui@sources.org> <201902141436144299614@cnnic.cn>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 02:36:14PM +0800,
 zuopeng@cnnic.cn <zuopeng@cnnic.cn> wrote 
 a message of 86 lines which said:

> i think both DNSSEC and DoH(or DoT) can protect DNS data,

"Protect" is like "security", a word so vague,  which includes so many
different (and sometimes contradictory) services that it is not very
useful. Writing "both DNSSEC and DoH(or DoT) can protect DNS data"
seems to imply that you did not think enough about the difference
between channel security and object security. This is really the
weakest point in your argumentation. (Yes, djb always make the same
mistake but he is a famous cryptographer so people forget and forgive
about his mistakes.)

> the fundmental point it to establish the trust chain and transit
> trust.

No. The entire point of DNSSEC is that you do not need to trust the
many servers that are between the validator and the origin.

> Regarding the case"secondary name servers mnaged by a different
> organisation", the servers can publish several TLSAs to distingush
> them.

I'm afraid you did not understand. Let me explain with concrete
examples. Suppose organisation Alice subcontracts a secondary name
server to organisation Bob (a very common use case).

1) What is Bob is evil and modify DNS records?
2) What is Bob is sloppy in security and its servers are cracked and
the attacker modify DNS records?

DNSSEC protects against both. DoT and DoH does not protect against
these issues.

> This idea is just a sketch model

The problem is that there are many sketch models floating around and
few serious proposals (and even less implemented and analyzed
proposals).


From nobody Thu Feb 14 00:58:50 2019
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Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 16:58:38 +0800
From: "zuopeng@cnnic.cn" <zuopeng@cnnic.cn>
To: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
Cc: dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>,  "Paul Wouters" <paul@nohats.ca>
References: <2019021215560470371417@cnnic.cn>,  <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902120846480.18026@bofh.nohats.ca>,  <201902131403257357123@cnnic.cn>,  <20190213134408.ri5iy42q7u7h37ui@sources.org>,  <201902141436144299614@cnnic.cn>,  <20190214083311.2d6ncijynujoq6vc@nic.fr>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charse=
t=3DISO-8859-1"><style>body { line-height: 1.5; }blockquote { margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.5em; }body { font-size: 10.5pt; fo=
nt-family: ????; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 1.5; }</style></head><b=
ody>=0A<div><span></span><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-co=
lor: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);">sorry,&nbsp;because&nbsp;of&nbsp;my&nbsp;english&n=
bsp;level,&nbsp;i&nbsp;misused&nbsp;the&nbsp;word&nbsp;"protect".<br>i&nbs=
p;know&nbsp;the&nbsp;difference&nbsp;between&nbsp;channel&nbsp;security&nb=
sp;and&nbsp;object&nbsp;security.<br>but&nbsp;in&nbsp;my&nbsp;proposal,&nb=
sp;the&nbsp;premise&nbsp;is&nbsp;the&nbsp;recursive&nbsp;server&nbsp;shoul=
d&nbsp;completely&nbsp;trust&nbsp;an Authenticated&nbsp;server.</span></di=
v><div><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0,=
 0);">&nbsp;i&nbsp;think&nbsp;this&nbsp;is&nbsp;simialr&nbsp;in&nbsp;DNSSE=
C,&nbsp;because&nbsp;if&nbsp;an&nbsp;DNSSEC_enabled&nbsp;authotative&nbsp;=
server(no&nbsp;matter&nbsp;it&nbsp;is&nbsp;Alice&nbsp;or&nbsp;Bob)&nbsp;is=
&nbsp;evil&nbsp;and&nbsp;modifies&nbsp;DNS&nbsp;records,&nbsp;</span></div=
><div><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, =
0);">it&nbsp;will&nbsp;succeed&nbsp;because&nbsp;it&nbsp;has&nbsp;private&=
nbsp;key&nbsp;and&nbsp;can&nbsp;fake&nbsp;anything.</span></div>=0A<div><b=
r></div><hr style=3D"width: 210px; height: 1px;" color=3D"#b5c4df" size=3D=
"1" align=3D"left">=0A<div><span><div style=3D"MARGIN: 10px; FONT-FAMILY: =
verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><div>zuopeng@cnnic.cn</div></div></span></div>=
=0A<blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: =
0.5em;"><div>&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4D=
F 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><div style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 8px; PADDI=
NG-LEFT: 8px; FONT-SIZE: 12px;FONT-FAMILY:tahoma;COLOR:#000000; BACKGROUND=
: #efefef; PADDING-BOTTOM: 8px; PADDING-TOP: 8px"><div><b>From:</b>&nbsp;<=
a href=3D"mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr">Stephane Bortzmeyer</a></div><div><b>D=
ate:</b>&nbsp;2019-02-14&nbsp;16:33</div><div><b>To:</b>&nbsp;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:zuopeng@cnnic.cn">zuopeng@cnnic.cn</a></div><div><b>CC:</b>&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dnsop@ietf.org">dnsop</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:paul@nohats.ca=
">Paul Wouters</a></div><div><b>Subject:</b>&nbsp;Re: [DNSOP] extension of=
 DoH to authoritative servers</div></div></div><div><div>On Thu, Feb 14, 2=
019 at 02:36:14PM +0800,</div>=0A<div> zuopeng@cnnic.cn &lt;zuopeng@cnnic.=
cn&gt; wrote </div>=0A<div> a message of 86 lines which said:</div>=0A<div=
>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>&gt; i think both DNSSEC and DoH(or DoT) can protect =
DNS data,</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>"Protect" is like "security", a=
 word so vague,&nbsp; which includes so many</div>=0A<div>different (and s=
ometimes contradictory) services that it is not very</div>=0A<div>useful. =
Writing "both DNSSEC and DoH(or DoT) can protect DNS data"</div>=0A<div>se=
ems to imply that you did not think enough about the difference</div>=0A<d=
iv>between channel security and object security. This is really the</div>=
=0A<div>weakest point in your argumentation. (Yes, djb always make the sam=
e</div>=0A<div>mistake but he is a famous cryptographer so people forget a=
nd forgive</div>=0A<div>about his mistakes.)</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<=
div>&gt; the fundmental point it to establish the trust chain and transit<=
/div>=0A<div>&gt; trust.</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>No. The entire p=
oint of DNSSEC is that you do not need to trust the</div>=0A<div>many serv=
ers that are between the validator and the origin.</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</di=
v>=0A<div>&gt; Regarding the case"secondary name servers mnaged by a diffe=
rent</div>=0A<div>&gt; organisation", the servers can publish several TLSA=
s to distingush</div>=0A<div>&gt; them.</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>I=
'm afraid you did not understand. Let me explain with concrete</div>=0A<di=
v>examples. Suppose organisation Alice subcontracts a secondary name</div>=
=0A<div>server to organisation Bob (a very common use case).</div>=0A<div>=
&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>1) What is Bob is evil and modify DNS records?</div>=
=0A<div>2) What is Bob is sloppy in security and its servers are cracked a=
nd</div>=0A<div>the attacker modify DNS records?</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=
=0A<div>DNSSEC protects against both. DoT and DoH does not protect against=
</div>=0A<div>these issues.</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>&gt; This ide=
a is just a sketch model</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>The problem is t=
hat there are many sketch models floating around and</div>=0A<div>few seri=
ous proposals (and even less implemented and analyzed</div>=0A<div>proposa=
ls).</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>____________________________________=
___________</div>=0A<div>DNSOP mailing list</div>=0A<div>DNSOP@ietf.org</d=
iv>=0A<div>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</div>=0A</div></blo=
ckquote>=0A</body></html>
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From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: "zuopeng@cnnic.cn" <zuopeng@cnnic.cn>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 04:11:20PM +0800,
 zuopeng@cnnic.cn <zuopeng@cnnic.cn> wrote 
 a message of 102 lines which said:

> No. i might did not explain it clearly.

It was clear but you repeat the same stuff, without taking into
account the remarks (or the existing documents, such as
draft-bortzmeyer-dprive-resolver-to-auth). Both Paul Wouters and David
Conrad explained that the DNS is more complicated than that (think of
forwarders, for instance) and you did not address their remarks.


From nobody Thu Feb 14 01:12:41 2019
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From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 04:31:35PM +0800,
 zuopeng@cnnic.cn <zuopeng@cnnic.cn> wrote 
 a message of 74 lines which said:

> > for instance a DoH or DoT server that intentionally or
> > accidentally returns false data. DNSSEC can counter that.
>  
>  I dont understand why.
>  If a server intentionally returns false data , it can fake anything
>  because it owns the private key, DNSSEC does not help either.

So, you seem to not understand DNSSEC very well. I suggest you read
RFC 4033 and following. Summary: DNSSEC is designed so that the server
does not need the private key.

Also, "server" means two VERY different things in the DNS, resolvers
and authoritative. DNSSEC protects also against a lying intermediary
resolver.


From nobody Thu Feb 14 01:14:06 2019
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Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 10:14:00 +0100
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: "zuopeng@cnnic.cn" <zuopeng@cnnic.cn>
Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 04:58:38PM +0800,
 zuopeng@cnnic.cn <zuopeng@cnnic.cn> wrote 
 a message of 126 lines which said:

> if an DNSSEC_enabled authotative server(no matter it is Alice or
> Bob) is evil and modifies DNS records, it will succeed because it
> has private key 

It is completely false. (You seem to think that online signing is the
only possibility but this is far from true.)


From nobody Thu Feb 14 01:49:12 2019
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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> On 14 Feb 2019, at 08:58, zuopeng@cnnic.cn wrote:
>=20
> the premise is the recursive server should completely trust an =
Authenticated server

You=E2=80=99ve already made that clear. The problem with that premise is =
it=E2=80=99s a false one. It represents a naive/unrealistic view of how =
the DNS is used.

Your proposal also needs all the authoritative servers for some zone to =
be under the same administrative/operational control. That=E2=80=99s =
also a false premise. And naive/unrealistic. It=E2=80=99s been explained =
to you that many organisations, TLDs in particular, don=E2=80=99t do =
that. They arrange service from multiple DNS providers to avoid single =
points of failure, improve redundancy, have extra capacity, etc, etc.

> if an DNSSEC_enabled authotative server(no matter it is Alice or Bob) =
is evil and modifies DNS records, it will succeed because it has private =
key and can fake anything

That premise is wrong too. Only the master server needs access to the =
private DNSSEC key. That master server isn=E2=80=99t necessarily in the =
zone's NS RRset and handling queries from resolving servers. Besides, if =
someone gives their private key to someone else -- in this case another =
authoritative DNS server -- by definition it isn=E2=80=99t a private key =
any more.


From nobody Thu Feb 14 02:03:36 2019
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Subject: [DNSOP] Multiplexing DNS & HTTP over TLS (was: extension of DoH to authoritative servers)
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Stephane,

On 14/02/2019 09.05, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 10:51:00PM +0100,
>   VladimÃ­r ÄŒunÃ¡t <vladimir.cunat+ietf@nic.cz> wrote
>   a message of 118 lines which said:
> 
>> Technically you can run DoT on whatever port you like.
> 
>> Example: with knot-resolver it's easy - you just add @443, either on
>> side of server and/or on the side of forwarding over TLS.
> 
> The problem is that you cannot then share this port with HTTPS
> services (the dkg draft on demultiplexing was abandoned, apparently
> because it doesn't work). In a world of scarce IPv4 public addresses,
> this is a serious problem.

Interesting. I know that the multi-purpose usage smelled bad but I 
didn't know that it didn't work.


Is there a write-up on this?

Thinking about it naively, a demultiplexer really only needs to say "is 
there a non-ASCII character in the first 2 or 3 bytes of a TLS session?".

An HTTP message always starts with some ASCII letters, like "GET" or 
"HEAD". In contrast, a DNS over TLS client will start with a message 
length encoded in 2 bytes. Since in practice queries will be less than 
256 bytes and therefore not start out with an ASCII letter (like 'G' or 
'H'). Actually this would require a client message of 16705 bytes to 
required that *both* the first two bytes are ASCII letters:

 >>> (ord('A') << 8) | ord('A')
16705

Since this is only required for the *first* DNS query on a TLS session, 
a client could always send a short query as the first one to avoid this 
issue. (I'm not sure how this would impact known-text analysis, but 
presumably TLS is resistant to this sort of cryptanalysis since HTTP 
almost always starts with the same few bytes.)

Even if the two-byte length results in ASCII letters, the client can 
sacrifice 1 bit of the message ID and ensure that it always has 
non-ASCII values, so the 3rd byte will always be non-ASCII and therefore 
not a valid HTTP command. So if it was really necessary to handle the 
case of queries of length 16705 or greater for the first query on a 
session, a client could always limit its message ID space to 32768 
possible values, which should be fine on a stateful connection where 
message ID is only used to match out-of-order answers.



I admit the issue of hand-off from a demultiplexer to a DNS server or 
HTTP server might be non-trivial, but in principle it should be possible.



Or is the issue to do with TLS itself? I don't know enough about SNI to 
know if there may be some reason why HTTP-based TLS could be different 
from DNS-based TLS, but I suppose it is possible. ðŸ¤”

Cheers,

--
Shane


From nobody Thu Feb 14 03:51:48 2019
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Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 12:51:40 +0100
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/q1TaJ2kZmdwdqn4B5VWtS_KNm80>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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On 2/14/19 9:05 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
>> Technically you can run DoT on whatever port you like.
>>
>> Example: with knot-resolver it's easy - you just add @443, either on
>> side of server and/or on the side of forwarding over TLS.
> The problem is that you cannot then share this port with HTTPS
> services (the dkg draft on demultiplexing was abandoned, apparently
> because it doesn't work). In a world of scarce IPv4 public addresses,
> this is a serious problem.

You can still multiplex based on SNI sent by the client.Â  HTTPS clients
surely send it commonly.Â  DoT clients perhaps not so often, but that's
just an implementation detail (which I was fixing in the past few weeks
in knot-resolver, incidentally).

I'm not sure how easy SNI-based multiplexing is to configure with
nowadays software, but I believe I've heard of some such setup with
nginx.Â  And I don't have any idea whether SNI encryption would interfere
with that, but I hope not.Â  ESNI will be a key part of DNS privacy,
though mainly for the non-DNS traffic.



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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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Vladim=C3=ADr =C4=8Cun=C3=A1t <vladimir.cunat+ietf@nic.cz> writes:

> You can still multiplex based on SNI sent by the client.=C2=A0 HTTPS clie=
nts
> surely send it commonly.=C2=A0 DoT clients perhaps not so often, but that=
's
> just an implementation detail (which I was fixing in the past few weeks
> in knot-resolver, incidentally).

My understanding of the reference to BCP195 from
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7858#section-3.2
is that SNI support is required for all DoT implementations.

> I'm not sure how easy SNI-based multiplexing is to configure with
> nowadays software, but I believe I've heard of some such setup with
> nginx.=C2=A0 And I don't have any idea whether SNI encryption would inter=
fere
> with that, but I hope not.=C2=A0 ESNI will be a key part of DNS privacy,
> though mainly for the non-DNS traffic.

It's simple to do with haproxy at least:
https://www.haproxy.com/blog/enhanced-ssl-load-balancing-with-server-name-i=
ndication-sni-tls-extension/

...which incidentally also can be used to support DoT with *any* DNS
server as backend.



Bj=C3=B8rn


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From: Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Multiplexing DNS & HTTP over TLS (was: extension of DoH to authoritative servers)
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On 14 Feb 2019, at 05:03, Shane Kerr <shane@time-travellers.org> wrote:

> On 14/02/2019 09.05, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
>> On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 10:51:00PM +0100,
>>  Vladim=C3=ADr =C4=8Cun=C3=A1t <vladimir.cunat+ietf@nic.cz> wrote
>>  a message of 118 lines which said:
>>> Technically you can run DoT on whatever port you like.
>>> Example: with knot-resolver it's easy - you just add @443, either on
>>> side of server and/or on the side of forwarding over TLS.
>> The problem is that you cannot then share this port with HTTPS
>> services (the dkg draft on demultiplexing was abandoned, apparently
>> because it doesn't work). In a world of scarce IPv4 public addresses,
>> this is a serious problem.
>=20
> Interesting. I know that the multi-purpose usage smelled bad but I =
didn't know that it didn't work.
>=20
> Is there a write-up on this?
>=20
> Thinking about it naively, a demultiplexer really only needs to say =
"is there a non-ASCII character in the first 2 or 3 bytes of a TLS =
session?".

I think we can consider explicit payload identification an important =
feature of successful protocols. Encapsulating layers need to signal key =
information about the nature of their contents explicitly, or you wind =
up with the kind of nonsense that we saw in flow-hashing in MPLS where =
expected network behaviours depended on which transport protocol or =
address family you happen to be using way up the stack, and ugly hacks =
abound.

Your thought-algorithm above might be ok for discriminating between DoT =
and HTTPS (although I think anything that depends on a condition like =
"non-ASCII" is highly suspect :-) but what about other protocols, =
current and imagined future, that might use TLS as an encapsulating =
protocol, e.g. to address similar privacy concerns? This doesn't seem =
like a problem that is particularly theoretical.

Running whatever protocol I like on whatever port I like is fine so long =
as I am informed about the nature of the communication (e.g. I am =
involved in the decisions at both ends; I configure my ssh client and my =
ssh server both to use 53/tcp for my own special reasons so the use of =
that port is understood and doesn't need to be negotiated). In the DNS, =
one endpoint often has no prior knowledge of even the existence of the =
other endpoint. Asking one or both sides to make inferences about the =
nature of a session without explicit signalling does not seem robust.


Joe=


From nobody Thu Feb 14 05:01:17 2019
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From: Klaus Malorny <Klaus.Malorny@knipp.de>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Multiplexing DNS & HTTP over TLS
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On 14.02.19 11:03, Shane Kerr wrote:
> Stephane,
> 

> Is there a write-up on this?
> 
> Thinking about it naively, a demultiplexer really only needs to say "is there a 
> non-ASCII character in the first 2 or 3 bytes of a TLS session?".
> 
>

Hi,

please think of HTTP/2, which is a binary protocol (although I don't know what 
the first bytes are). But I guess ALPN (RFC 7301) would do the trick.

Regards,

Klaus





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From: Shane Kerr <shane@time-travellers.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Multiplexing DNS & HTTP over TLS
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Klaus,

On 14/02/2019 14.00, Klaus Malorny wrote:
> On 14.02.19 11:03, Shane Kerr wrote:
> 
>> Is there a write-up on this?
>>
>> Thinking about it naively, a demultiplexer really only needs to say 
>> "is there a non-ASCII character in the first 2 or 3 bytes of a TLS 
>> session?".
>>
> please think of HTTP/2, which is a binary protocol (although I don't 
> know what the first bytes are). But I guess ALPN (RFC 7301) would do the 
> trick.

I think that HTTP/2 preserves the initial handshake of HTTP/1.1.

But looking at ALPN, it was designed for exactly this the multiplexing 
use case. In principle all that would be needed is adding an identifier 
to the ALPN protocol IDs:

https://www.iana.org/assignments/tls-extensiontype-values/tls-extensiontype-values.xhtml#alpn-protocol-ids

It would also address Joe's concerns about other protocols.

Maybe creating an ALPN protocol ID for DNS-over-TLS is something for the 
DPRIVE working group? ðŸ¤”

Cheers,

--
Shane


From nobody Thu Feb 14 05:46:17 2019
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From: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Mork?= <bjorn@mork.no>
cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Vladim=C3=ADr_=C4=8Cun=C3=A1t?= <vladimir.cunat+ietf@nic.cz>,  Shane Kerr <shane@time-travellers.org>, "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] extension of DoH to authoritative servers
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Bj=C3=B8rn Mork <bjorn@mork.no> wrote:
>
> My understanding of the reference to BCP195 from
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7858#section-3.2
> is that SNI support is required for all DoT implementations.
>
> It's simple to do with haproxy at least:
> https://www.haproxy.com/blog/enhanced-ssl-load-balancing-with-server-name=
-indication-sni-tls-extension/
>
> ...which incidentally also can be used to support DoT with *any* DNS
> server as backend.

I'm using nginx as my DoT and DoH front-end proxy
(https://github.com/fanf2/doh101/) and it looks
like I need to add ssl_preread support to get the SNI
https://nginx.org/en/docs/stream/ngx_stream_ssl_preread_module.html

I'm only really interested in logging it to see what the clients think
they are talking to - they are almost all Androids doing opportunistic
DoT.

Tony.
--=20
f.anthony.n.finch  <dot@dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
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High becoming rough or very rough. Occasional rain. Moderate or poor.
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Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 13:58:58 +0000
From: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
To: Jiankang Yao <yaojk@cnnic.cn>
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Jiankang Yao <yaojk@cnnic.cn> wrote:
>
>    A new draft about root data caching is proposed, which aims to solve
>    the similar problem presented in RFC7706 and gives the DNS
>    administrator one more option.

How does this relate to:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dnsop-hammer
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-7706bis

It looks like this new draft is actually a revision of:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yao-dnsop-root-cache

Tony.
-- 
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In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902141349060.18720@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk>
From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 10:12:15 -0500
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To: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
Cc: Jiankang Yao <yaojk@cnnic.cn>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, arnt <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Fw: New Version Notification for draft-arnt-yao-dnsop-root-data-caching-00.txt
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On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 8:59 AM Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at> wrote:

> Jiankang Yao <yaojk@cnnic.cn> wrote:
> >
> >    A new draft about root data caching is proposed, which aims to solve
> >    the similar problem presented in RFC7706 and gives the DNS
> >    administrator one more option.
>
> How does this relate to:
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dnsop-hammer


... and our plan is to still (in our copious free time!) update this to
simplify it, and update it to be more of a "this is how implementations
have implemented this" -- the document is close to cooked, and we'd dearly
love a short bit from implementers describing how they did it...

W



>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-7706bis
>
> It looks like this new draft is actually a revision of:
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yao-dnsop-root-cache
>
> Tony.
> --
> f.anthony.n.finch  <dot@dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
> Trafalgar: Southeast 6 to gale 8. Moderate or rough. Fair. Good.
>
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>


-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in
the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of
pants.
   ---maf

--0000000000008eff450581dc1738
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 8:59 AM Tony=
 Finch &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dot@dotat.at">dot@dotat.at</a>&gt; wrote:<br><=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Jiankang Yao &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaojk@cnnic.cn" target=3D"_blank">yaojk@cnnic.cn</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A new draft about root data caching is proposed, which ai=
ms to solve<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the similar problem presented in RFC7706 and gives the DN=
S<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 administrator one more option.<br>
<br>
How does this relate to:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dnsop-hammer" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dnso=
p-hammer</a></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">... and our plan is to still (in ou=
r copious free time!) update this to simplify it, and update it to be more =
of a &quot;this is how implementations have implemented this&quot; -- the d=
ocument is close to cooked, and we&#39;d dearly love a short bit from imple=
menters describing how they did it...</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" sty=
le=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">W</div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-7706bis" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-770=
6bis</a><br>
<br>
It looks like this new draft is actually a revision of:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yao-dnsop-root-cache" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yao-dnsop-ro=
ot-cache</a><br>
<br>
Tony.<br>
-- <br>
f.anthony.n.finch=C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dot@dotat.at" target=3D"_blan=
k">dot@dotat.at</a>&gt;=C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://dotat.at/" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">http://dotat.at/</a><br>
Trafalgar: Southeast 6 to gale 8. Moderate or rough. Fair. Good.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DNSOP mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DNSOP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">DNSOP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature">I don&#39;t think the execution is relevant when=
 it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.<br>This is like putting ra=
bid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen tho=
se particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf<=
/div></div>

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From: Benno Overeinder <benno@NLnetLabs.nl>
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> On 14 Feb 2019, at 16:12, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 8:59 AM Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at> wrote:
> Jiankang Yao <yaojk@cnnic.cn> wrote:
> >
> >    A new draft about root data caching is proposed, which aims to =
solve
> >    the similar problem presented in RFC7706 and gives the DNS
> >    administrator one more option.
>=20
> How does this relate to:
>=20
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dnsop-hammer
>=20
> ... and our plan is to still (in our copious free time!) update this =
to simplify it, and update it to be more of a "this is how =
implementations have implemented this" -- the document is close to =
cooked, and we'd dearly love a short bit from implementers describing =
how they did it=E2=80=A6
>=20

<implementers hat on>

Noted.

=E2=80=94 Benno


--=20
Benno J. Overeinder
NLnet Labs
https://www.nlnetlabs.nl/


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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Call for Adoption: draft-song-atr-large-resp
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The call for acceptance for draft-song-atr-large-resp is closed, and it
is clear that there is insufficient support to adopt the concept as a
DNSOP WG document.

There was some concern about the increased number of packages involved
in a legitimate exchange (half of them being ICMP messages, introducing
other concerns) and that the problem space is too narrow to burden all
resolvers.

We would like to thank the authors and WG participants who responded to
the call for adoption on the mailing list.

Best regards,

-- Benno
DNSOP co-chair


On 18/01/2019 18:55, Benno Overeinder wrote:
> Dear DNSOP WG,
> 
> We discussed this work (draft -01) in Montreal, and different opinions wrt. adoption were expressed.  In the past months, the authors pushed a draft version -02 that addressed and resolved some of these comments.  
> 
> This starts a Call for Adoption for:
> draft-song-atr-large-resp
> 
> The draft is available here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-atr-large-resp/
> 
> Please review this draft to see if you think it is suitable for adoption by DNSOP, and comments to the list, clearly stating your view.
> 
> Please also indicate if you are willing to contribute text, review, etc.  The WG accepts the document or not, but the WG chairs also expect a commitment from the WG participants who support the document to contribute to the draft, review, etc.
> 
> The intended status of the draft is Experimental, but we want to ask developers/vendors if they plan to implement it.   
> 
> This call for adoption ends: 1 February 2019
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Benno Overeinder
> DNSOP co-chair
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>


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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Multiplexing DNS & HTTP over TLS
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In article <9a7b4bc4-018a-9f8c-d3fd-2428356d6605@time-travellers.org> you write:
>I think that HTTP/2 preserves the initial handshake of HTTP/1.1.

Seems to me you could make it work using SNI, so long as the name you
use for the web and DNS servers are different.  I realize this makes
it more sniffable, but maybe that's less bad than some of the
alternatives.


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From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>
To: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
Cc: Jiankang Yao <yaojk@cnnic.cn>, dnsop@ietf.org
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On Thursday 14 February 2019 14:58:58 CET, Tony Finch wrote:
> How does this relate to:
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dnsop-hammer
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-7706bis

It originates in various ideas Jiankang and I have chatted about.

I didn't like 7706, because I feel that the servers that have long ping 
times to the nearest root are more likely to have admins who make mistakes. 
Jiankang and I discussed alternatives when we met a while ago, and a few 
times since. Once we hit upon this possibility, we didn't discuss 
draft-wkumari-dnsop-hammer, perhaps because it's expired and we'd 
forgotten. Mental entropy.

Compared to the hammer draft, I should say that this is dead simple, has 
one fewer acronyms, and that both of those are intentional features.

I see your name is in the text. Why did you let it expire?

> It looks like this new draft is actually a revision of:
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yao-dnsop-root-cache

Probably correct. IIt was I who did the typing, and I prefer to start by 
editing something that already has the right XML stuff and at least some 
references etc.

Arnt


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On Thu, Feb 07, 2019 at 04:47:01PM +0100,
 Petr Å paÄek <petr.spacek@nic.cz> wrote 
 a message of 129 lines which said:

> > 4.1.1.  NOERROR Extended DNS Error Code 1 - Unsupported DNSKEY Algorithm
> > 
> >    The resolver attempted to perform DNSSEC validation, but a DNSKEY
> >    RRSET contained only unknown algorithms.  The R flag should be set.
> > 
> > 4.1.2.  NOERROR Extended DNS Error Code 2 - Unsupported DS Algorithm
> > 
> >    The resolver attempted to perform DNSSEC validation, but a DS RRSET
> >    contained only unknown algorithms.  The R flag should be set.
> 
> Why R flag? This is not an error, resolution suceeded,

But without the AD flag.

> and there is nothing to retry. I propose change both cases to "The R
> flag should not be set."

In both cases, because another resolver may know other, different
algorithms and therefore succeed to validate.


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On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 12:30:10PM -0800,
 internet-drafts@ietf.org <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote 
 a message of 44 lines which said:

>         Title           : Extended DNS Errors
>         Authors         : Warren Kumari
>                           Evan Hunt
>                           Roy Arends
>                           Wes Hardaker
>                           David C Lawrence
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-dnsop-extended-error-04.txt

Some remarks but before, note I think that it is very important that
we have a way to report more detailed error causes. One of the biggest
problems of DNSSEC is that there is no easy way for the resolver to
report to the application about a DNSSEC problem. So, the work on this
draft is essential.

Now, the problems:

It seems to me that this draft is mostly for resolvers, most planned
extended codes are useless for authoritative servers (except may be
REFUSED/Lame?).

I suggest to make that clear in the introduction:

These extended error codes are specially useful for resolvers, to
return to stub resolvers or to downstream resolvers. Authoritative
servers MAY use them but most error codes would make no sense for
them.

> Unless a protective transport mechanism (like TSIG [RFC2845] or TLS
> [RFC8094])

Why 8094, which does not have even one implementation, instead of
7858?

> 4.2.3.  SERVFAIL Extended DNS Error Code 3 - Signature Expired
>
>   The resolver attempted to perform DNSSEC validation, but the
>   signature was expired.

I suggest to replace "the signature was expired" by "a signature in
the validation chain was expired".

Rationale: which signature? What if a DS at the parent is sign with an
expired signature?

> 4.2.5.  SERVFAIL Extended DNS Error Code 5 - DNSKEY missing
>
>   A DS record existed at a parent, but no DNSKEY record could be found
>   for the child.

I suggest to replace "no DNSKEY record could be found for the child"
by "no DNSKEY record for this specific key could be found for the
child".

Rationale : the current text seems to imply this code is only when
there is no DNSKEY at all.

> 4.4.1.  NXDOMAIN Extended DNS Error Code 1 - Blocked
>
>   The resolver attempted to perfom a DNS query but the domain is
>   blacklisted due to a security policy.  The R flag should not be set.

The last sentence is touchy. If a stub is configured with two
resolvers, and one is fast but known for lying in some cases that you
disagree with, you may ask a cookie from the other parent (no, resolver).

> 4.4.1.  NXDOMAIN Extended DNS Error Code 1 - Blocked
>
>   The resolver attempted to perfom a DNS query but the domain is
>   blacklisted due to a security policy.

I tend to think it would be a good idea to separate the case where the
policy was decided by the resolver and the case where the policy came
from outside, typically from the local law (see RFC 7725 for a similar
case with HTTP).

Rationale: in the first case (local policy of the resolver), the user
may be interested in talking with the resolver admin if he or she
disagrees with the blocking. In the second case, this would be useless.

Otherwise, I suggest to add an error code:

NOERROR Extended DNS Error Code 3 - Forged answer

   For policy reasons (legal obligation, or malware filtering, for
   instance), an answer was forged.  The R flag should not be set.

Rationale: there is "NXDOMAIN Extended DNS Error Code 1 - Blocked" but
policy-aware resolvers (lying resolvers, in plain english) do not
always forge NXDOMAIN, they can also forge A or AAAA answers.

See also the issue just before, about the need to differentiate
resolver policy from "upper" policy, law, for instance.


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From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 15:33:23 -0500
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On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 2:53 PM Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 12:30:10PM -0800,
>  internet-drafts@ietf.org <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote
>  a message of 44 lines which said:
>
> >         Title           : Extended DNS Errors
> >         Authors         : Warren Kumari
> >                           Evan Hunt
> >                           Roy Arends
> >                           Wes Hardaker
> >                           David C Lawrence
> >       Filename        : draft-ietf-dnsop-extended-error-04.txt
>
> Some remarks but before, note I think that it is very important that
> we have a way to report more detailed error causes. One of the biggest
> problems of DNSSEC is that there is no easy way for the resolver to
> report to the application about a DNSSEC problem. So, the work on this
> draft is essential.
>
>
Thank you, I / we certainly think so.



> Now, the problems:
>
> It seems to me that this draft is mostly for resolvers, most planned
> extended codes are useless for authoritative servers (except may be
> REFUSED/Lame?).
>
> I suggest to make that clear in the introduction:
>
> These extended error codes are specially useful for resolvers, to
> return to stub resolvers or to downstream resolvers. Authoritative
> servers MAY use them but most error codes would make no sense for
> them.
>

Yup, at the moment the majority of these are resolver errors - I don't
think we necessarily expected / thought that through when starting this.
I'm guessing that the majority of these will be resolver errors on the
future as well, but how about:
"The majority of these extended error codes are primarily useful for
resolvers, to
return to stub resolvers or to downstream resolvers. Authoritative
servers may also use this technique to annotate errors (for example,
REFUSED), but as of publication there are not as many of these defined"
or something?


>
> > Unless a protective transport mechanism (like TSIG [RFC2845] or TLS
> > [RFC8094])
>
> Why 8094, which does not have even one implementation, instead of
> 7858?
>

I believe that that was an oversight / error.


>
> > 4.2.3.  SERVFAIL Extended DNS Error Code 3 - Signature Expired
> >
> >   The resolver attempted to perform DNSSEC validation, but the
> >   signature was expired.
>
> I suggest to replace "the signature was expired" by "a signature in
> the validation chain was expired".
>
> Rationale: which signature? What if a DS at the parent is sign with an
> expired signature?
>
>
LGTM.



> > 4.2.5.  SERVFAIL Extended DNS Error Code 5 - DNSKEY missing
> >
> >   A DS record existed at a parent, but no DNSKEY record could be found
> >   for the child.
>
> I suggest to replace "no DNSKEY record could be found for the child"
> by "no DNSKEY record for this specific key could be found for the
> child".
>
>
LGTM.


> Rationale : the current text seems to imply this code is only when
> there is no DNSKEY at all.
>
> > 4.4.1.  NXDOMAIN Extended DNS Error Code 1 - Blocked
> >
> >   The resolver attempted to perfom a DNS query but the domain is
> >   blacklisted due to a security policy.  The R flag should not be set.
>
> The last sentence is touchy. If a stub is configured with two
> resolvers, and one is fast but known for lying in some cases that you
> disagree with, you may ask a cookie from the other parent (no, resolver).
>

Yup. The R flag is entirely, 100% simply a hint - you are perfectly allowed
to ignore it, and in this case, you may want to (keep reading!)
So, why bother having the flag at all? Primarily it exists so that, if an
implementation gets an extended error code which it doesn't understand (e.g
42), it can choose to take the hint, or not.
If an implementation *does* understand the code, it can decide it knows
better.

Now, in this particular case, I think you are right - unless anyone
objects, I'm a gonna flip that to "the R flag should be set".



>
> > 4.4.1.  NXDOMAIN Extended DNS Error Code 1 - Blocked
> >
> >   The resolver attempted to perfom a DNS query but the domain is
> >   blacklisted due to a security policy.
>
> I tend to think it would be a good idea to separate the case where the
> policy was decided by the resolver and the case where the policy came
> from outside, typically from the local law (see RFC 7725 for a similar
> case with HTTP).
>
> Rationale: in the first case (local policy of the resolver), the user
> may be interested in talking with the resolver admin if he or she
> disagrees with the blocking. In the second case, this would be useless.
>
> Otherwise, I suggest to add an error code:
>
> NOERROR Extended DNS Error Code 3 - Forged answer
>
>    For policy reasons (legal obligation, or malware filtering, for
>    instance), an answer was forged.  The R flag should not be set.
>
> Rationale: there is "NXDOMAIN Extended DNS Error Code 1 - Blocked" but
> policy-aware resolvers (lying resolvers, in plain english) do not
> always forge NXDOMAIN, they can also forge A or AAAA answers.
>
> See also the issue just before, about the need to differentiate
> resolver policy from "upper" policy, law, for instance.
>

Errr... I like the idea / concept, but I'd really like to avoid the word
"Forged" -- while you and I (and probably almost everyone else on the list)
would agree that this is forged, I think that the pejorative nature of the
word would make it that people are forced to forge answers might not be
allowed to tag it as such.
Can anying think of a better word? I was hoping to find something in the
HTTP 451 Error Code page - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_451, but no
luck.
Fictional answer? Alternative fact? Supposititious answer?

Thank you for your comments and text,
W



>
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>


-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in
the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of
pants.
   ---maf

--000000000000061fe10581e09411
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div></=
div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On=
 Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 2:53 PM Stephane Bortzmeyer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bor=
tzmeyer@nic.fr">bortzmeyer@nic.fr</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 12:30:10PM -0800,<=
br>
=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">interne=
t-drafts@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote <br>
=C2=A0a message of 44 lines which said:<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0: Extended DNS Errors<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0: Warren Kumari<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Evan Hunt<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Roy Arends<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Wes Hardaker<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0David C Lawrence<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-=
ietf-dnsop-extended-error-04.txt<br>
<br>
Some remarks but before, note I think that it is very important that<br>
we have a way to report more detailed error causes. One of the biggest<br>
problems of DNSSEC is that there is no easy way for the resolver to<br>
report to the application about a DNSSEC problem. So, the work on this<br>
draft is essential.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"=
font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Thank you, I / we certainly think so.</div>=
<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
">
Now, the problems:<br>
<br>
It seems to me that this draft is mostly for resolvers, most planned<br>
extended codes are useless for authoritative servers (except may be<br>
REFUSED/Lame?).<br>
<br>
I suggest to make that clear in the introduction:<br>
<br>
These extended error codes are specially useful for resolvers, to<br>
return to stub resolvers or to downstream resolvers. Authoritative<br>
servers MAY use them but most error codes would make no sense for<br>
them.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Yup, at the moment the majority of the=
se are resolver errors - I don&#39;t think we necessarily expected / though=
t that through when starting this.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I&#39;m guessing that the majority of t=
hese will be resolver errors on the future as well, but how about:</div></d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">&q=
uot;The majority of these extended error codes are primarily useful for res=
olvers, to</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,s=
ans-serif">return to stub resolvers or to downstream resolvers. Authoritati=
ve</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-seri=
f">servers may also use this technique to annotate errors (for example, REF=
USED), but as of publication there are not as many of these defined&quot;</=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">o=
r something?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt; Unless a protective transport mechanism (like TSIG [RFC2845] or TLS<br=
>
&gt; [RFC8094])<br>
<br>
Why 8094, which does not have even one implementation, instead of<br>
7858?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I believe that that was an oversight /=
 error.</div></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt; 4.2.3.=C2=A0 SERVFAIL Extended DNS Error Code 3 - Signature Expired<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0The resolver attempted to perform DNSSEC validation, but t=
he<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0signature was expired.<br>
<br>
I suggest to replace &quot;the signature was expired&quot; by &quot;a signa=
ture in<br>
the validation chain was expired&quot;.<br>
<br>
Rationale: which signature? What if a DS at the parent is sign with an<br>
expired signature?<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"=
font-family:verdana,sans-serif">LGTM.</div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
&gt; 4.2.5.=C2=A0 SERVFAIL Extended DNS Error Code 5 - DNSKEY missing<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0A DS record existed at a parent, but no DNSKEY record coul=
d be found<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0for the child.<br>
<br>
I suggest to replace &quot;no DNSKEY record could be found for the child&qu=
ot;<br>
by &quot;no DNSKEY record for this specific key could be found for the<br>
child&quot;.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"=
font-family:verdana,sans-serif">LGTM.</div></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Rationale : the current text seems to imply this code is only when<br>
there is no DNSKEY at all.<br>
<br>
&gt; 4.4.1.=C2=A0 NXDOMAIN Extended DNS Error Code 1 - Blocked<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0The resolver attempted to perfom a DNS query but the domai=
n is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0blacklisted due to a security policy.=C2=A0 The R flag sho=
uld not be set.<br>
<br>
The last sentence is touchy. If a stub is configured with two<br>
resolvers, and one is fast but known for lying in some cases that you<br>
disagree with, you may ask a cookie from the other parent (no, resolver).<b=
r></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:verdana,sans-serif">Yup. The R flag is entirely, 100% simply a hi=
nt - you are perfectly allowed to ignore it, and in this case, you may want=
 to (keep reading!)</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
verdana,sans-serif">So, why bother having the flag at all? Primarily it exi=
sts so that, if an implementation gets an extended error code which it does=
n&#39;t understand (e.g 42), it can choose to take the hint, or not.</div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">If an =
implementation *does* understand the code, it can decide it knows better.</=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><=
br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-ser=
if">Now, in this particular case, I think you are right - unless anyone obj=
ects, I&#39;m a gonna flip that to &quot;the R flag should be set&quot;.=C2=
=A0</div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt; 4.4.1.=C2=A0 NXDOMAIN Extended DNS Error Code 1 - Blocked<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0The resolver attempted to perfom a DNS query but the domai=
n is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0blacklisted due to a security policy.<br>
<br>
I tend to think it would be a good idea to separate the case where the<br>
policy was decided by the resolver and the case where the policy came<br>
from outside, typically from the local law (see RFC 7725 for a similar<br>
case with HTTP).<br>
<br>
Rationale: in the first case (local policy of the resolver), the user<br>
may be interested in talking with the resolver admin if he or she<br>
disagrees with the blocking. In the second case, this would be useless.<br>
<br>
Otherwise, I suggest to add an error code:<br>
<br>
NOERROR Extended DNS Error Code 3 - Forged answer<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0For policy reasons (legal obligation, or malware filtering, fo=
r<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0instance), an answer was forged.=C2=A0 The R flag should not b=
e set.<br>
<br>
Rationale: there is &quot;NXDOMAIN Extended DNS Error Code 1 - Blocked&quot=
; but<br>
policy-aware resolvers (lying resolvers, in plain english) do not<br>
always forge NXDOMAIN, they can also forge A or AAAA answers.<br>
<br>
See also the issue just before, about the need to differentiate<br>
resolver policy from &quot;upper&quot; policy, law, for instance.<br></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-famil=
y:verdana,sans-serif">Errr... I like the idea / concept, but I&#39;d really=
 like to avoid the word &quot;Forged&quot; -- while you and I (and probably=
 almost everyone else on the list) would agree that this is forged, I think=
 that the pejorative nature of the word would make it that people are force=
d to forge answers might not be allowed to tag it as such.</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Can anying thin=
k of a better word? I was hoping to find something in the HTTP 451 Error Co=
de page -=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_451" style=3D"=
font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_=
451</a>, but no luck.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-famil=
y:verdana,sans-serif">Fictional answer? Alternative fact? Supposititious an=
swer?=C2=A0</div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-=
family:verdana,sans-serif">Thank you for your comments and text,</div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">W</div><br=
></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DNSOP mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DNSOP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">DNSOP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature">I don&#39;t think the execution is relevant when=
 it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.<br>This is like putting ra=
bid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen tho=
se particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf<=
/div></div></div></div>

--000000000000061fe10581e09411--


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From: Bob Harold <rharolde@umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 16:41:56 -0500
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On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 12:29 PM Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>
wrote:

> On Thursday 14 February 2019 14:58:58 CET, Tony Finch wrote:
> > How does this relate to:
> >
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dnsop-hammer
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-7706bis
>
> It originates in various ideas Jiankang and I have chatted about.
>
> I didn't like 7706, because I feel that the servers that have long ping
> times to the nearest root are more likely to have admins who make
> mistakes.
> Jiankang and I discussed alternatives when we met a while ago, and a few
> times since. Once we hit upon this possibility, we didn't discuss
> draft-wkumari-dnsop-hammer, perhaps because it's expired and we'd
> forgotten. Mental entropy.
>
> Compared to the hammer draft, I should say that this is dead simple, has
> one fewer acronyms, and that both of those are intentional features.
>
> I see your name is in the text. Why did you let it expire?
>
> > It looks like this new draft is actually a revision of:
> >
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yao-dnsop-root-cache
>
> Probably correct. IIt was I who did the typing, and I prefer to start by
> editing something that already has the right XML stuff and at least some
> references etc.
>
> Arnt
>

The draft assumes typical TTL is a week, but what I see in the root zone is:
 the records for X.root-servers.net are 6 days (518400),
DS, NSEC, RRSIG, and SOA are 1 day (86400), and
 A, AAAA, DNSKEY, and NS are all 2 days (172800).
I assume the NS records are the most often used?

So I think the draft needs to recalculate the numbers with 2 days as the
typical ttl.

awk '{print $2,$4}' root.zone | sort | uniq -c
      2
   4159 172800 A
   3648 172800 AAAA
      3 172800 DNSKEY
   7269 172800 NS
      2 172800 RRSIG
     13 518400 A
     13 518400 AAAA
     13 518400 NS
      1 518400 RRSIG
   2903 86400 DS
   1536 86400 NSEC
   2926 86400 RRSIG
      2 86400 SOA
      1 <<>> 9.11.3-1ubuntu1.3-Ubuntu
      1 global +cmd
      1 Query 8197
      1 SERVER:
      1 WHEN: Feb
      1 XFR 22488

-- 
Bob Harold

--000000000000aeafeb0581e1871a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div dir=3D"lt=
r" class=3D"gmail_signature"><br></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 12:2=
9 PM Arnt Gulbrandsen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no">arnt@=
gulbrandsen.priv.no</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex">On Thursday 14 February 2019 14:58:58 CET, Tony Finch wr=
ote:<br>
&gt; How does this relate to:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dnsop-hammer" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari=
-dnsop-hammer</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-7706bis" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dn=
sop-7706bis</a><br>
<br>
It originates in various ideas Jiankang and I have chatted about.<br>
<br>
I didn&#39;t like 7706, because I feel that the servers that have long ping=
 <br>
times to the nearest root are more likely to have admins who make mistakes.=
 <br>
Jiankang and I discussed alternatives when we met a while ago, and a few <b=
r>
times since. Once we hit upon this possibility, we didn&#39;t discuss <br>
draft-wkumari-dnsop-hammer, perhaps because it&#39;s expired and we&#39;d <=
br>
forgotten. Mental entropy.<br>
<br>
Compared to the hammer draft, I should say that this is dead simple, has <b=
r>
one fewer acronyms, and that both of those are intentional features.<br>
<br>
I see your name is in the text. Why did you let it expire?<br>
<br>
&gt; It looks like this new draft is actually a revision of:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yao-dnsop-root-cache" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yao-dns=
op-root-cache</a><br>
<br>
Probably correct. IIt was I who did the typing, and I prefer to start by <b=
r>
editing something that already has the right XML stuff and at least some <b=
r>
references etc.<br>
<br>
Arnt<br></blockquote><div><br></div>The draft assumes typical TTL is a week=
, but what I see in the root zone is:</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=C2=
=A0the records for <a href=3D"http://X.root-servers.net">X.root-servers.net=
</a> are 6 days (518400),=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">DS, NSEC, R=
RSIG, and SOA are 1 day (86400), and</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=C2=A0=
A, AAAA, DNSKEY, and NS are all 2 days (172800).=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote">I assume the NS records are the most often used?</div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>So I think the draft needs to r=
ecalculate the numbers with 2 days as the typical ttl.<br clear=3D"all"><di=
v><br class=3D"gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div><div><div>awk &=
#39;{print $2,$4}&#39; root.zone | sort | uniq -c</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 2=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A04159 172800 A</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A03648 172800 AAAA</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 3 172800 DNSKEY</div>=
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A07269 172800 NS</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2 172800 RR=
SIG</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A013 518400 A</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A013 518400 AAAA</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A013 518400 NS</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1 518400 RRSIG</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A02903 86400 DS</div>=
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A01536 86400 NSEC</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A02926 86400 RRSIG</=
div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2 86400 SOA</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1 =
&lt;&lt;&gt;&gt; 9.11.3-1ubuntu1.3-Ubuntu</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1 =
global +cmd</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1 Query 8197</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1 SERVER:=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1 WHEN: Feb</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1 XFR 22488</div></div><div><br></div><div>--=
=C2=A0</div><div>Bob Harold</div><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div></div>

--000000000000aeafeb0581e1871a--


From nobody Thu Feb 14 13:57:19 2019
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To: IETF DNSOP WG <dnsop@ietf.org>
From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 13:57:14 -0800
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Subject: [DNSOP] the root is not special, everybody please stop obsessing over it
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7706 is wrong headed on a number of levels, but its worst offense is to 
think that the root zone is special. we need dns to have leases on its 
delegation chain including glue and dnssec metadata. everything you 
might need to use in order to reach a zone authority and trust its 
results should be kept warm. the owner of the data you've leased must 
have the ability to reach out and invalidate it in a trusted way.

having .CN's delegation data resident because of 7706 doesn't help you 
reach your own EXAMPLE.CN name servers if the network outage you were 
concerned about is inside china rather than between china and the rest 
of the world.

NFS gave an example of how to solve this, 25 years ago, with NQLEASE. i 
am not asking for new computer science, only application of what's 
already well understood outside the DNS community, as to keeping the hot 
side hot.

unbound has pioneered a bit of this by automatically refetching data 
that's near its expiration point. we should work from there outward, by 
standardizing it, prioritizing delegation and dnssec metadata, and 
exploring ways that the .CN servers could invalidate old NS RRset or DS 
RRset data (or indeed DNSKEY and RRSIG) if it was willing to do the work 
of remembering who it had handed the now-invalid data to and what trust 
markers would be needed to get an RDNS to accept some new form of NOTIFY 
to purge its cache.

_that_ would be complexity worth its cost. 7706 was not. HAMMER is not. 
indeed nothing which treats the root zone as special is worth pursuing, 
since many other things besides the root zone are also needed for 
correct operation during network partition events.

the fact that i have to hotwire my RDNS cache with local zone glue in 
order to reach my own servers when my comcast circuit is down or i can't 
currently reach the .SU authorities to learn where VIX.SU is, should not 
only concern, but also embarrass, all of us.

vixie


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> On 15 Feb 2019, at 8:57 am, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:
>=20
> 7706 is wrong headed on a number of levels, but its worst offense is =
to think that the root zone is special. we need dns to have leases on =
its delegation chain including glue and dnssec metadata. everything you =
might need to use in order to reach a zone authority and trust its =
results should be kept warm. the owner of the data you've leased must =
have the ability to reach out and invalidate it in a trusted way.
>=20
> having .CN's delegation data resident because of 7706 doesn't help you =
reach your own EXAMPLE.CN name servers if the network outage you were =
concerned about is inside china rather than between china and the rest =
of the world.
>=20
> NFS gave an example of how to solve this, 25 years ago, with NQLEASE. =
i am not asking for new computer science, only application of what's =
already well understood outside the DNS community, as to keeping the hot =
side hot.
>=20
> unbound has pioneered a bit of this by automatically refetching data =
that's near its expiration point. we should work from there outward, by =
standardizing it, prioritizing delegation and dnssec metadata, and =
exploring ways that the .CN servers could invalidate old NS RRset or DS =
RRset data (or indeed DNSKEY and RRSIG) if it was willing to do the work =
of remembering who it had handed the now-invalid data to and what trust =
markers would be needed to get an RDNS to accept some new form of NOTIFY =
to purge its cache.
>=20
> _that_ would be complexity worth its cost. 7706 was not. HAMMER is =
not. indeed nothing which treats the root zone as special is worth =
pursuing, since many other things besides the root zone are also needed =
for correct operation during network partition events.
>=20
> the fact that i have to hotwire my RDNS cache with local zone glue in =
order to reach my own servers when my comcast circuit is down or i can't =
currently reach the .SU authorities to learn where VIX.SU is, should not =
only concern, but also embarrass, all of us.

Having the local recursive server having a copy of the local zones was
always part of DNS=E2=80=99s deployment model.  Having authoritative =
servers not be
recursive servers is not the same as recursive servers not being
authoritative for some zones.

One thing we missed when adding NOTIFY was adding a NOTIFY-ALSO RRset. =
In
named we work around this by having a also-notify clause in the zone=E2=80=
=99s
configuration clause.

DNS RRsets need two TTLs. 1) refresh after in case we need to update. 2) =
stop believing
this result after.  With a little bit of EDNS negotiation both can be =
transmitted in
a response.

> vixie
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop

--=20
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742              INTERNET: marka@isc.org


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From: Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:27:51 -0800
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To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-extended-error-04.txt
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On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 12:34 PM Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 2:53 PM Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 12:30:10PM -0800,
>>  internet-drafts@ietf.org <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote
>>  a message of 44 lines which said:
>>
>> >         Title           : Extended DNS Errors
>> >         Authors         : Warren Kumari
>> >                           Evan Hunt
>> >                           Roy Arends
>> >                           Wes Hardaker
>> >                           David C Lawrence
>> >       Filename        : draft-ietf-dnsop-extended-error-04.txt
>>
>> Some remarks but before, note I think that it is very important that
>> we have a way to report more detailed error causes. One of the biggest
>> problems of DNSSEC is that there is no easy way for the resolver to
>> report to the application about a DNSSEC problem. So, the work on this
>> draft is essential.
>>
>>
> Thank you, I / we certainly think so.
>
>
>
>> Now, the problems:
>>
>>
> > 4.2.5.  SERVFAIL Extended DNS Error Code 5 - DNSKEY missing
>> >
>> >   A DS record existed at a parent, but no DNSKEY record could be found
>> >   for the child.
>>
>> I suggest to replace "no DNSKEY record could be found for the child"
>> by "no DNSKEY record for this specific key could be found for the
>> child".
>>
>>
> LGTM.
>

I disagree; I concur with Michael Sheldon (my colleague).

I think the semantics that need to be expressed are:
"No matching DS/DNSKEY pairs could be found for the child."

It doesn't necessarily require the absence of specific DS records in the
parent,
or DNSKEY records in the child, or the complete absence of e.g. DNSKEYs.

It may or may not make any sense to call out other sources of error leading
to this condition, e.g. in the EXTRA-TEXT field.
(No DNSKEYs; No valid DNSKEYs; No valid DS records; Valid DS with Expired
RRSIG; Valid DNSKEY with Expired RRSIG, etc.)

And it definitely should only be SERVFAIL iff no matching, valid DS/DNSKEY
pairs (i.e. DNSSEC validated DNSKEY, with matching, understood algorithms
and non-expired signatures exist).

Brian

--000000000000e388e40581e22b2b
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 12:34 PM Warr=
en Kumari &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:warren@kumari.net">warren@kumari.net</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"=
font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 2:53 PM S=
tephane Bortzmeyer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr" target=3D"_blan=
k">bortzmeyer@nic.fr</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex">On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 12:30:10PM -0800,<br>
=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">interne=
t-drafts@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote <br>
=C2=A0a message of 44 lines which said:<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0: Extended DNS Errors<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0: Warren Kumari<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Evan Hunt<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Roy Arends<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Wes Hardaker<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0David C Lawrence<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-=
ietf-dnsop-extended-error-04.txt<br>
<br>
Some remarks but before, note I think that it is very important that<br>
we have a way to report more detailed error causes. One of the biggest<br>
problems of DNSSEC is that there is no easy way for the resolver to<br>
report to the application about a DNSSEC problem. So, the work on this<br>
draft is essential.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans=
-serif">Thank you, I / we certainly think so.</div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Now, the problems:<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex">
&gt; 4.2.5.=C2=A0 SERVFAIL Extended DNS Error Code 5 - DNSKEY missing<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0A DS record existed at a parent, but no DNSKEY record coul=
d be found<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0for the child.<br>
<br>
I suggest to replace &quot;no DNSKEY record could be found for the child&qu=
ot;<br>
by &quot;no DNSKEY record for this specific key could be found for the<br>
child&quot;.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans=
-serif">LGTM.</div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>I disagree; I concur with Michael Sheldon (my colleague).</div><div>=
<br></div><div>I think the semantics that need to be expressed are:</div><d=
iv>&quot;No matching DS/DNSKEY pairs could be found for the child.&quot;</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>It doesn&#39;t necessarily require the absence of sp=
ecific DS records in the parent,</div><div>or DNSKEY records in the child, =
or the complete absence of e.g. DNSKEYs.</div><div><br></div><div>It may or=
 may not make any sense to call out other sources of error leading to this =
condition, e.g. in the EXTRA-TEXT field.</div><div>(No DNSKEYs; No valid DN=
SKEYs; No valid DS records; Valid DS with Expired RRSIG; Valid DNSKEY with =
Expired RRSIG, etc.)</div><div><br></div><div>And it definitely should only=
 be SERVFAIL iff no matching, valid DS/DNSKEY pairs (i.e. DNSSEC validated =
DNSKEY, with matching, understood algorithms and non-expired signatures exi=
st).</div><div><br></div><div>Brian</div></div></div>

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From nobody Thu Feb 14 15:23:22 2019
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From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] the root is not special, everybody please stop obsessing over it
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Mark Andrews wrote on 2019-02-14 14:13:
...
>> the fact that i have to hotwire my RDNS cache with local zone glue in order to reach my own servers when my comcast circuit is down or i can't currently reach the .SU authorities to learn where VIX.SU is, should not only concern, but also embarrass, all of us.
> 
> Having the local recursive server having a copy of the local zones was
> always part of DNSâ€™s deployment model.  Having authoritative servers not be
> recursive servers is not the same as recursive servers not being
> authoritative for some zones.

i didn't expect you to need the broader example. the narrow example 
where i can't find my own zones is trivial. it's when i can't find other 
services whose dns is authoritatively served within my isp or my region, 
because even though i have connectivity within that isp or that region, 
there is a political or physical connectivity break between that isp or 
that region and the rest of the world, for example, the servers for 
TLD's and 2LD's and 3LD's whose delegators are outside my connectivity.

> One thing we missed when adding NOTIFY was adding a NOTIFY-ALSO RRset. In
> named we work around this by having a also-notify clause in the zoneâ€™s
> configuration clause.

that won't help. an authority server must have a protocol by which they 
can, at their own discretion, opportunistically invalidate prior 
answers, and which can be trusted by the RDNS servers hearing those 
invalidation messages.

> 
> DNS RRsets need two TTLs. 1) refresh after in case we need to update. 2) stop believing
> this result after.  With a little bit of EDNS negotiation both can be transmitted in
> a response.

that won't help the case which is more common than connectivity splits, 
which is where the old data has become harmful (key compromised, server 
or network offline, emergency renumber or rehoming or rekeying required).

let's stop thinking of this as a root problem or a TLD problem. the 
metadata an RDNS will need to reach and trust servers it can reach, may 
be on the wrong side of a network partition. that includes the entire 
NS/DS and DNSKEY/RRSIG chain, plus A/AAAA glue. we need partial zone 
authority, like a mini-slave, where the RDNS has _subscribed_ to the 
content it is keeping, and has a potential trust relationship with the 
owner of that data. we can argue about whether it's like mini-IXFR in 
which case it can answer authoritatively for the partial data it has 
leased. but we should not be talking about second TTL's, or root-only 
solutions like 7706.

vixie

-- 
P Vixie


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On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 01:57:14PM -0800, Paul Vixie wrote:
> unbound has pioneered a bit of this by automatically refetching data 
> that's near its expiration point.
[...]
> _that_ would be complexity worth its cost. 7706 was not. HAMMER is not. 

I'm confused, what's the difference between HAMMER and the thing you said?

(Which BIND also does, incidentally.)

-- 
Evan Hunt -- each@isc.org
Internet Systems Consortium, Inc.


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On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 01:57:14PM -0800, Paul Vixie wrote:
> indeed nothing which treats the root zone as special is worth pursuing, 
> since many other things besides the root zone are also needed for 
> correct operation during network partition events.

This point is well taken, but sometimes the root zone is a useful test
case for innovations that might be more generically useful later. It's
relatively small, relatively static, *XFR accessible, signed but uses
NSEC not NSEC3, etc. It's pleasantly free of annoyances.

So, zone mirroring fell out of 7706, and I suspect it will eventually have
broader applications than just local root cache. I think some of the early
work on aggressive negative caching was root-specific as well.  I wouldn't
assume an idea is bad just because it's currently focused on the root, it
might not always be.

-- 
Evan Hunt -- each@isc.org
Internet Systems Consortium, Inc.


From nobody Thu Feb 14 16:05:28 2019
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Evan Hunt wrote on 2019-02-14 15:56:
> On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 01:57:14PM -0800, Paul Vixie wrote:
>> indeed nothing which treats the root zone as special is worth 
>> pursuing, since many other things besides the root zone are also 
>> needed for correct operation during network partition events.
> 
> This point is well taken, but sometimes the root zone is a useful 
> test case for innovations that might be more generically useful 
> later. It's relatively small, relatively static, *XFR accessible, 
> signed but uses NSEC not NSEC3, etc. It's pleasantly free of 
> annoyances.

it's distraction value, where countries lacking root server _operators_
of their own, feel diminished thereby, and where technology solutions
that affect the root zone in some way, feel unduly relevant... makes it
an _unuseful_ test case. recall that AAAA and DS came to every other
zone in the DNS before it was grudgingly admitted into the root zone.

we have to stop using the root zone as any kind of test case. it's not
special and should be treated unspecially. any technology which focuses
on it should be suspected immediately of "shiny object syndrome."

> So, zone mirroring fell out of 7706, and I suspect it will
> eventually have broader applications than just local root cache.

nope. because it did not prototype any partial replication. i'm not
going to mirror COM because i need it to reach FARSIGHTSECURITY.COM. we
needed to focus on partial replication, and avoid any solution that
would only work for small zones that changed infrequently, so as to
avoid wasting years of opportunity on a solution that changed nothing
and led nowhere.

> I think some of the early work on aggressive negative caching was 
> root-specific as well.

no. in fact, the opposite was true. the first ANC was OTWANC (off the
wire ANC), which had to be specified as part of DLV, which was
instigated in the first place principally because noone knew how many
more years we'd have to wait before a DS RR could be placed into the
root zone.

> I wouldn't assume an idea is bad just because it's currently focused
> on the root, it might not always be.

for reasons stated above, there are _no_ counterexamples showing that a 
focus on root-specific technology ever did any good, and a plethora of 
examples where focus on root-specific technology did some lasting harm.

therefore, our assumption of any root-specific proposal should be, until 
and unless proved otherwise on a case by case basis, that it's "shiny 
object syndrome", rather than a legitimate engineering exercise.

-- 
P Vixie


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From: william manning <chinese.apricot@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 17:35:33 -0800
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To: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
Cc: Evan Hunt <each@isc.org>, IETF DNSOP WG <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] the root is not special, everybody please stop obsessing over it
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so, you would like the DNS to be resilient enough to "see" what was
topologically reachable and build a connected graph of those assets?  I
think that has been done, both academically and in a more limited way,
commercially, but its not called DNS so as not to upset the DNS mafia.  Or
do you want something more restrictive than that?

/Wm

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 4:05 PM Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:

>
>
> Evan Hunt wrote on 2019-02-14 15:56:
> > On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 01:57:14PM -0800, Paul Vixie wrote:
> >> indeed nothing which treats the root zone as special is worth
> >> pursuing, since many other things besides the root zone are also
> >> needed for correct operation during network partition events.
> >
> > This point is well taken, but sometimes the root zone is a useful
> > test case for innovations that might be more generically useful
> > later. It's relatively small, relatively static, *XFR accessible,
> > signed but uses NSEC not NSEC3, etc. It's pleasantly free of
> > annoyances.
>
> it's distraction value, where countries lacking root server _operators_
> of their own, feel diminished thereby, and where technology solutions
> that affect the root zone in some way, feel unduly relevant... makes it
> an _unuseful_ test case. recall that AAAA and DS came to every other
> zone in the DNS before it was grudgingly admitted into the root zone.
>
> we have to stop using the root zone as any kind of test case. it's not
> special and should be treated unspecially. any technology which focuses
> on it should be suspected immediately of "shiny object syndrome."
>
> > So, zone mirroring fell out of 7706, and I suspect it will
> > eventually have broader applications than just local root cache.
>
> nope. because it did not prototype any partial replication. i'm not
> going to mirror COM because i need it to reach FARSIGHTSECURITY.COM. we
> needed to focus on partial replication, and avoid any solution that
> would only work for small zones that changed infrequently, so as to
> avoid wasting years of opportunity on a solution that changed nothing
> and led nowhere.
>
> > I think some of the early work on aggressive negative caching was
> > root-specific as well.
>
> no. in fact, the opposite was true. the first ANC was OTWANC (off the
> wire ANC), which had to be specified as part of DLV, which was
> instigated in the first place principally because noone knew how many
> more years we'd have to wait before a DS RR could be placed into the
> root zone.
>
> > I wouldn't assume an idea is bad just because it's currently focused
> > on the root, it might not always be.
>
> for reasons stated above, there are _no_ counterexamples showing that a
> focus on root-specific technology ever did any good, and a plethora of
> examples where focus on root-specific technology did some lasting harm.
>
> therefore, our assumption of any root-specific proposal should be, until
> and unless proved otherwise on a case by case basis, that it's "shiny
> object syndrome", rather than a legitimate engineering exercise.
>
> --
> P Vixie
>
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">so, you would like the DNS to be resilient enough to &quot=
;see&quot; what was topologically reachable and build a connected graph of =
those assets?=C2=A0 I think that has been done, both academically and in a =
more limited way, commercially, but its not called DNS so as not to upset t=
he DNS mafia.=C2=A0 Or do you want something more restrictive than that?<di=
v><br></div><div>/Wm</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"=
ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 4:05 PM Paul Vixie &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:paul@redbarn.org">paul@redbarn.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
Evan Hunt wrote on 2019-02-14 15:56:<br>
&gt; On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 01:57:14PM -0800, Paul Vixie wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; indeed nothing which treats the root zone as special is worth <br>
&gt;&gt; pursuing, since many other things besides the root zone are also <=
br>
&gt;&gt; needed for correct operation during network partition events.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This point is well taken, but sometimes the root zone is a useful <br>
&gt; test case for innovations that might be more generically useful <br>
&gt; later. It&#39;s relatively small, relatively static, *XFR accessible, =
<br>
&gt; signed but uses NSEC not NSEC3, etc. It&#39;s pleasantly free of <br>
&gt; annoyances.<br>
<br>
it&#39;s distraction value, where countries lacking root server _operators_=
<br>
of their own, feel diminished thereby, and where technology solutions<br>
that affect the root zone in some way, feel unduly relevant... makes it<br>
an _unuseful_ test case. recall that AAAA and DS came to every other<br>
zone in the DNS before it was grudgingly admitted into the root zone.<br>
<br>
we have to stop using the root zone as any kind of test case. it&#39;s not<=
br>
special and should be treated unspecially. any technology which focuses<br>
on it should be suspected immediately of &quot;shiny object syndrome.&quot;=
<br>
<br>
&gt; So, zone mirroring fell out of 7706, and I suspect it will<br>
&gt; eventually have broader applications than just local root cache.<br>
<br>
nope. because it did not prototype any partial replication. i&#39;m not<br>
going to mirror COM because i need it to reach <a href=3D"http://FARSIGHTSE=
CURITY.COM" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">FARSIGHTSECURITY.COM</a>. =
we<br>
needed to focus on partial replication, and avoid any solution that<br>
would only work for small zones that changed infrequently, so as to<br>
avoid wasting years of opportunity on a solution that changed nothing<br>
and led nowhere.<br>
<br>
&gt; I think some of the early work on aggressive negative caching was <br>
&gt; root-specific as well.<br>
<br>
no. in fact, the opposite was true. the first ANC was OTWANC (off the<br>
wire ANC), which had to be specified as part of DLV, which was<br>
instigated in the first place principally because noone knew how many<br>
more years we&#39;d have to wait before a DS RR could be placed into the<br=
>
root zone.<br>
<br>
&gt; I wouldn&#39;t assume an idea is bad just because it&#39;s currently f=
ocused<br>
&gt; on the root, it might not always be.<br>
<br>
for reasons stated above, there are _no_ counterexamples showing that a <br=
>
focus on root-specific technology ever did any good, and a plethora of <br>
examples where focus on root-specific technology did some lasting harm.<br>
<br>
therefore, our assumption of any root-specific proposal should be, until <b=
r>
and unless proved otherwise on a case by case basis, that it&#39;s &quot;sh=
iny <br>
object syndrome&quot;, rather than a legitimate engineering exercise.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
P Vixie<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DNSOP mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DNSOP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">DNSOP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] the root is not special, everybody please stop obsessing over it
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william manning wrote on 2019-02-14 17:35:
> so, you would like the DNS to be resilient enough to "see" what was 
> topologically reachable and build a connected graph of those assets?

no. that's not possible, and not desireable in any case.

> I think that has been done, both academically and in a more limited way, 
> commercially, but its not called DNS so as not to upset the DNS mafia.  
> Or do you want something more restrictive than that?

i want the metadata i need to reach and trust assets on my side of any 
connectivity loss event, to be kept in warm storage, and made subject to 
trusted invalidation on an opportunistic basis, at the discretion of the 
authority operators who own the data i have warm copies of.

in practice this means DS/NS and DNSKEY/RRSIG and AAAA/A from my static 
trust anchor(s) down to any data i used recently or frequently (or by 
some other priority scheme), and i want it to look a bit like the single 
transaction mode of IXFR plus the single transaction mode of NOTIFY.

no topology information as to actual connectivity will be modeled or 
estimated or needed. what matters is whether i can still reach all 
internet resources on my side of a break in connectivity (whether local 
or regional or distant), without needing any information that's 
otherwise only available on the far side of the connectivity break.

thanks for asking; i am happy to clarify. DNS infrastructure should not 
be centralized, even if its content remains centrally coordinated by 
ICANN. (block chain people keep telling me that ICANN will be obsolete, 
but i'm not taking a position on that, only on data resiliency.)

-- 
P Vixie


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On 2/14/19 6:51 PM, Paul Vixie wrote:
> i want the metadata i need to reach and trust assets on my side of any =

> connectivity loss event, to be kept in warm storage, and made subject t=
o=20
> trusted invalidation on an opportunistic basis, at the discretion of th=
e=20
> authority operators who own the data i have warm copies of.

Please explain how "warm storage" relates to priming issues.  Does warm=20
mean that it's something you have queried?  Or does it also include=20
pertinent (meta)data for interesting things (but not everything) that=20
you've not yet queried?

> in practice this means DS/NS and DNSKEY/RRSIG and AAAA/A from my static=
=20
> trust anchor(s) down to any data i used recently or frequently (or by=20
> some other priority scheme), and i want it to look a bit like the singl=
e=20
> transaction mode of IXFR plus the single transaction mode of NOTIFY.
>=20
> no topology information as to actual connectivity will be modeled or=20
> estimated or needed. what matters is whether i can still reach all=20
> internet resources on my side of a break in connectivity (whether local=
=20
> or regional or distant), without needing any information that's=20
> otherwise only available on the far side of the connectivity break.

Does "still reach all internet resources on my side of the break"=20
include things that you've not yet queried for?

I'm wondering if a fancier cache of some sort would suffice.

Specifically I wonder if BIND (et al) can maintain a FIFO (like) list of =

QNAMEs, moving the current QNAME to the start of the list, and=20
proactively refreshing the first 10 / 100 / 1000 / pick a number in such =

a way as to not alter the list position when refreshing.

This obviously has a priming problem as a QNAME won't be subject for=20
refresh until /after/ it has been queried the first time.  This is why I =

question your use of the word "warm".

Perhaps this can be implemented as part of the existing garbage=20
collection process that remove expired cache entries.  If the data to be =

purged is in the FIFO, then refresh it and cache the results without=20
moving it to the head of the FIFO.

The other thing that I might add to this is something to artificially=20
prime the cache by querying for specific names off of a user definable li=
st.

How close would something like this be to what you're wanting to see?

This would re-use existing mechanism and methodology.  It wouldn't see=20
changes in data until after cache expiration.  But this is SoP for=20
caches now.

> thanks for asking; i am happy to clarify. DNS infrastructure should not=
=20
> be centralized, even if its content remains centrally coordinated by=20
> ICANN. (block chain people keep telling me that ICANN will be obsolete,=
=20
> but i'm not taking a position on that, only on data resiliency.)



--=20
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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From: william manning <chinese.apricot@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 18:48:26 -0800
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To: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] the root is not special, everybody please stop obsessing over it
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You are welcome.  I think, modulo minor differences in terminology, we are
saying pretty much the same thing.
pragmatically, DNS infrastructure dependencies can not be maintained and
work on data resiliency is where the useful work lies.

/Wm

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 5:51 PM Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:

>
>
> william manning wrote on 2019-02-14 17:35:
> > so, you would like the DNS to be resilient enough to "see" what was
> > topologically reachable and build a connected graph of those assets?
>
> no. that's not possible, and not desireable in any case.
>
> > I think that has been done, both academically and in a more limited way,
> > commercially, but its not called DNS so as not to upset the DNS mafia.
> > Or do you want something more restrictive than that?
>
> i want the metadata i need to reach and trust assets on my side of any
> connectivity loss event, to be kept in warm storage, and made subject to
> trusted invalidation on an opportunistic basis, at the discretion of the
> authority operators who own the data i have warm copies of.
>
> in practice this means DS/NS and DNSKEY/RRSIG and AAAA/A from my static
> trust anchor(s) down to any data i used recently or frequently (or by
> some other priority scheme), and i want it to look a bit like the single
> transaction mode of IXFR plus the single transaction mode of NOTIFY.
>
> no topology information as to actual connectivity will be modeled or
> estimated or needed. what matters is whether i can still reach all
> internet resources on my side of a break in connectivity (whether local
> or regional or distant), without needing any information that's
> otherwise only available on the far side of the connectivity break.
>
> thanks for asking; i am happy to clarify. DNS infrastructure should not
> be centralized, even if its content remains centrally coordinated by
> ICANN. (block chain people keep telling me that ICANN will be obsolete,
> but i'm not taking a position on that, only on data resiliency.)
>
> --
> P Vixie
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">You are welcome.=C2=A0 I think, modulo minor differences i=
n terminology, we are saying pretty much the same thing.=C2=A0<div>pragmati=
cally, DNS infrastructure dependencies can not be maintained and work on da=
ta resiliency is where the useful work lies.</div><div><br></div><div>/Wm</=
div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_at=
tr">On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 5:51 PM Paul Vixie &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paul@r=
edbarn.org">paul@redbarn.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
william manning wrote on 2019-02-14 17:35:<br>
&gt; so, you would like the DNS to be resilient enough to &quot;see&quot; w=
hat was <br>
&gt; topologically reachable and build a connected graph of those assets?<b=
r>
<br>
no. that&#39;s not possible, and not desireable in any case.<br>
<br>
&gt; I think that has been done, both academically and in a more limited wa=
y, <br>
&gt; commercially, but its not called DNS so as not to upset the DNS mafia.=
=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; Or do you want something more restrictive than that?<br>
<br>
i want the metadata i need to reach and trust assets on my side of any <br>
connectivity loss event, to be kept in warm storage, and made subject to <b=
r>
trusted invalidation on an opportunistic basis, at the discretion of the <b=
r>
authority operators who own the data i have warm copies of.<br>
<br>
in practice this means DS/NS and DNSKEY/RRSIG and AAAA/A from my static <br=
>
trust anchor(s) down to any data i used recently or frequently (or by <br>
some other priority scheme), and i want it to look a bit like the single <b=
r>
transaction mode of IXFR plus the single transaction mode of NOTIFY.<br>
<br>
no topology information as to actual connectivity will be modeled or <br>
estimated or needed. what matters is whether i can still reach all <br>
internet resources on my side of a break in connectivity (whether local <br=
>
or regional or distant), without needing any information that&#39;s <br>
otherwise only available on the far side of the connectivity break.<br>
<br>
thanks for asking; i am happy to clarify. DNS infrastructure should not <br=
>
be centralized, even if its content remains centrally coordinated by <br>
ICANN. (block chain people keep telling me that ICANN will be obsolete, <br=
>
but i&#39;m not taking a position on that, only on data resiliency.)<br>
<br>
-- <br>
P Vixie<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000caa7af0581e5cfad--


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To: Grant Taylor <gtaylor=40tnetconsulting.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
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References: <b45edb5e-1508-0b02-a14c-a5be4ca9c0e6@redbarn.org> <20190214235614.GB87001@isc.org> <6c3d6894-c584-c4fd-d09e-55903b34bead@redbarn.org> <CACfw2hiH5pS1wL+MKCq6-vYZS2sQ562Ke-2unC7zV1KQMPJybw@mail.gmail.com> <c54c48aa-1c75-7b72-2b52-3583e0e803ed@redbarn.org> <c25c30d6-91f5-ddd9-4dc4-475c1b55bf78@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] the root is not special, everybody please stop obsessing over it
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Grant Taylor wrote on 2019-02-14 18:27:
> Please explain how "warm storage" relates to priming issues.  Does
> warm mean that it's something you have queried?  Or does it also
> include pertinent (meta)data for interesting things (but not
> everything) that you've not yet queried?

i don't expect anyone to store anything they have not queried, though
it's natural for an implementation to permit an operator to statically
define other targets as well, much as mark andrews did with "stub" zones
starting in 1990 or so in BIND4.

> Does "still reach all internet resources on my side of the break" 
> include things that you've not yet queried for?

no. while there may be some kind of persistent storage of long term
popularity information so that things that were ever warm can be kept
warm even if not queried since the last reboot cycle, i do not expect
any tree-walking exercises. my long term study of RDNS tells me that
there is a high correlation between past and future queries. if some
query tries to occur during a connectivity break, it might fail, and in
that sense it's a DNS problem we've always had, that i'm not solving.

> ...
> 
> How close would something like this be to what you're wanting to
> see?

i think leasing behaviour is expensive on a network-wide basis, and
should be limited to high-value data, by which i mean metadata needed to
reach and trust name servers. so, DS/NS, DNSKEY/RRSIG, and related
AAAA/A. i do not foresee remembering non-metadata information, no matter
how popular, since it's in a content operator's power to put a copy of
their DNS infrastructure inside any region that also has a copy of its
services. it's only third party metadata, like the delegation and trust
chain, that is an unmanageable risk today.

also note, i would not propose invalidation on its own merits, because 
the cost of the data-state and trust-state is too high. however, if we 
have to maintain that state anyway, for leasing, then invalidation is 
approximately free, depending on the priorities of the authority server 
operator. therefore, it becomes a package deal, one stone, two birds.

-- 
P Vixie


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From: Evan Hunt <each@isc.org>
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On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 04:05:22PM -0800, Paul Vixie wrote:
> nope. because it did not prototype any partial replication. i'm not
> going to mirror COM because i need it to reach FARSIGHTSECURITY.COM.

I didn't say anybody's going to mirror COM, I said I suspect zone
mirroring will find applications other than pre-caching the root.
The fact that it isn't a complete solution to the problem space you're
interested in at the moment doesn't mean it was useless. That wasn't a major
motivation for the work anyway, I don't believe -- my recollection is that
it was mainly about reducing garbage traffic, with latency reduction for
some resolvers a happy side-effect.

Keeping cache data warm and available during network partitions is a
largely solved problem; we have prefetch/hammer, we have serve-stale.
(Also apparently we have whatever generates all that zombie DNS traffic
Geoff discovered back in 2016, but I'd rather avoid perpetuating that
mistake, which seems *quite* perpetual enough as it is.)

Keeping cache data coherent is less solved: we don't have the trusted
invalidation piece you mentioned. I agree that might be a useful line of
inquiry.  I guess that's the point you were trying to make; I didn't get
it immediately because you started off discussing the shortcomings of an
RFC that doesn't seem particularly directly related.  So let's get
specific about the problem and discuss requirements for a solution.

-- 
Evan Hunt -- each@isc.org
Internet Systems Consortium, Inc.


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From: David Conrad <drc@virtualized.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] the root is not special, everybody please stop obsessing over it
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Paul,

On Feb 14, 2019, at 1:57 PM, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:
> 7706 is wrong headed on a number of levels, but its worst offense is =
to think that the root zone is special.

Operationally, the root zone actually is special. It is, after all, the =
starting point of the name space. As far as I can tell, there are 3 ways =
the root zone is special:

1. How does one obtain name servers for the root zone? How does one =
obtain name servers for any other zone?
2. Who controls the name servers for the root zone? Who controls the =
name servers for redbarn.org?
3. What happens if the root zone is unreachable? What happens if =
redbarn.org is unreachable?

7706 describes one method to improve resiliency, performance, and =
privacy of root name service, with no modification of the DNS protocol =
or name servers. It is, of course, possible to do the same thing with =
any zone, assuming you have enough memory, but few zones generate =
sufficient interest to do so. Not sure why you=E2=80=99re arguing =
against it. Could you explain?

Regards,
-drc


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Paul,&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>On Feb =
14, 2019, at 1:57 PM, Paul Vixie &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paul@redbarn.org" =
class=3D"">paul@redbarn.org</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">7706 is wrong headed on a number of levels, but its worst =
offense is to think that the root zone is special. =
</span></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Operationally, =
the root zone actually is special. It is, after all, the starting point =
of the name space. As far as I can tell, there are 3 ways the root zone =
is special:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>1. How does one obtain =
name servers for the root zone? How does one obtain name servers for any =
other zone?</div><div>2. Who controls the name servers for the root =
zone? Who controls the name servers for <a href=3D"http://redbarn.org" =
class=3D"">redbarn.org</a>?</div><div>3. What happens if the root zone =
is unreachable? What happens if <a href=3D"http://redbarn.org" =
class=3D"">redbarn.org</a> is unreachable?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>7706 describes one method to improve resiliency, =
performance, and privacy of root name service, with no modification of =
the DNS protocol or name servers. It is, of course, possible to do the =
same thing with any zone, assuming you have enough memory, but few zones =
generate sufficient interest to do so. Not sure why you=E2=80=99re =
arguing against it. Could you explain?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Regards,</div><div>-drc</div></div><br =
class=3D""><style class=3D"">ul[class*=3D'mb-extra__public-links'], =
ul[class*=3D'mb-note__public-links'], ul[class*=3D'mb-task__public-links']=
 { display: none !important; }</style></body></html>=

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From nobody Fri Feb 15 01:02:47 2019
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From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
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On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 03:33:23PM -0500,
 Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> wrote 
 a message of 388 lines which said:

> but how about:
> "The majority of these extended error codes are primarily useful for
> resolvers, to return to stub resolvers or to downstream
> resolvers. Authoritative servers may also use this technique to
> annotate errors (for example, REFUSED), but as of publication there
> are not as many of these defined"

OK

> > > 4.4.1.  NXDOMAIN Extended DNS Error Code 1 - Blocked
> > >
> > >   The resolver attempted to perfom a DNS query but the domain is
> > >   blacklisted due to a security policy.
> >
> > I tend to think it would be a good idea to separate the case where
> > the policy was decided by the resolver and the case where the
> > policy came from outside, typically from the local law (see RFC
> > 7725 for a similar case with HTTP).
> >
> > Rationale: in the first case (local policy of the resolver), the
> > user may be interested in talking with the resolver admin if he or
> > she disagrees with the blocking. In the second case, this would be
> > useless.

You did not reply to this one. It is inspired by a message from Petr
Å paÄek
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/b3wtVj_aWm24PXyHr1M9NMj3LJ0>
explaining how extended DNS errors would be great to tell the user
whose fault it is (signature expired == no need to tell the resolver's
operator). I really think it is important to make the difference between:

* I blocked your request because that's _my_ policy
* I blocked your request because I'm compelled to do so, don't
  complain, it would be useless.

> > NOERROR Extended DNS Error Code 3 - Forged answer

> I'd really like to avoid the word "Forged"

I did not know it was pejorative (in french, "forgÃ©e", which has the
same origin, is not). So, what about "substituted answer"? Neutral
enough?


From nobody Fri Feb 15 01:10:00 2019
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On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 08:51:25PM +0100,
 Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> wrote 
 a message of 101 lines which said:

> Otherwise, I suggest to add an error code:

Ooops, I forgot one:

SERVFAIL Extended DNS Error Code 8 - No reachable authority 

   The resolver could not reach any of the authoritative name servers
   (or they refused to reply).  The R flag should be set.

Rationale: in draft -04, all SERVFAIL extended error codes are for
DNSSEC issues. In my experience, SERVFAIL happens also (and quite
often) for routing issues (most zones have all their authoritative
name servers in only one AS, sometimes even one prefix or, worse, one
rack).

We set the R flag because another resolver may not have the same
routing issues, BGP not being consistent between all sites.

True, an extended error code could be added after the RFC is
published, through "Specification required" but 1) it is easier to do
it now 2) it gives to the people who will implement the RFC a wider
view of the possible uses.


From nobody Fri Feb 15 01:34:24 2019
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> On 15 Feb 2019, at 09:02, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> =
wrote:
>=20
> I really think it is important to make the difference between:
>=20
> * I blocked your request because that's _my_ policy
> * I blocked your request because I'm compelled to do so, don't
>  complain, it would be useless.

Why? =46rom the client's perspective, there's no effective difference =
between these. Their request was rejected for some policy reason and it =
doesn't really matter whose policy has been applied.

Besides in situations where blocking is being done because of someone =
else's say so, it's highly likely that the DNS operator will be subject =
to some sort of injunction which prevents them from disclosing that such =
blocking is taking place. Think warrant canaries.


From nobody Fri Feb 15 01:37:20 2019
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On Fri, Feb 08, 2019 at 02:58:38PM +0100,
 Alexander Mayrhofer <alex.mayrhofer.ietf@gmail.com> wrote 
 a message of 59 lines which said:

> Feedback highly appreciated,

I think that it is an important work because it brings the power of
the DNS to many other identifier systems. So, I support it.

May be more examples could help people figure out the use cases? "My
Bitcoin address is at foobar.example" and then the Bitcoin software
would query _did.foobar.example and get
<did:bitcoin:1NZc7FJ7eHJgRMRSrmncJJM9bPnusJeuR6>.

I note that there exists already non-standard (and probably not really
deployed) solutions in that space, some specific to a TLD
<https://www.nominet.uk/domain-names-unlock-new-potential-on-blockchain/>
<http://domainincite.com/23273-my-brain-explodes-trying-to-understand-mmxs-new-blockchain-deal-for-luxe>

Regarding draft -01: it seems OK to me. The only problem I find:

> particularly the concerns around downgrade attacks when the record
> is not signed

Why downgrade attacks specifically? Without DNSSEC, a lot of attacks
are possible.


From nobody Fri Feb 15 01:46:36 2019
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Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 10:46:31 +0100
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-extended-error-04.txt
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On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 09:34:16AM +0000,
 Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com> wrote 
 a message of 19 lines which said:

> Why? From the client's perspective, there's no effective difference
> between these.

In the first case, you can talk with someone which you have some
relationship with (the ISP, typically).

> Their request was rejected for some policy reason and it doesn't
> really matter whose policy has been applied.

Well, it certainly matters to me. Think responsability,
accountability, consumer choice...

> Besides in situations where blocking is being done because of
> someone else's say so, it's highly likely that the DNS operator will
> be subject to some sort of injunction which prevents them from
> disclosing that such blocking is taking place.

Not "highly likely". It depends. Some censors are open in their
censorship (otherwise, RFC 7725 would be useless.)

Case study: in France, the list of "terrorist" domain names whose
blocking is mandatory is not public, but the fact that a domain is
blocked because of this list is not: the ISP returns a forged (sorry,
"substituted") specific IP address.


From nobody Fri Feb 15 01:47:54 2019
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Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:47:49 +0000
From: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] the root is not special, everybody please stop obsessing over it
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Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:

> unbound has pioneered a bit of this by automatically refetching data that's
> near its expiration point.

BIND also does this, it's on by default.

I'm not a fan of RFC 7706 because I think it's redundant wrt prefetch
(HAMMER), NXDOMAIN synthesis, and (to a much smaller extent) serve-stale.

> the fact that i have to hotwire my RDNS cache with local zone glue in order to
> reach my own servers when my comcast circuit is down or i can't currently
> reach the .SU authorities to learn where VIX.SU is, should not only concern,
> but also embarrass, all of us.

We have local stealth secondary copies of our zones on our recursive
servers which helps to some extent, except when downstream validators want
to get the chain of trust. But serve-stale should help.

I wonder if it's worth having different prefetch logic for infrastructure
records (NS, DS, glue, etc) to more eagerly keep them warm than leaf
records.

Tony.
-- 
f.anthony.n.finch  <dot@dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
Northwest Southeast Iceland: Northeasterly 5 or 6, becoming variable 3 or 4.
Rough. Wintry showers. Good, occasionally poor.


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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] the root is not special, everybody please stop obsessing over it
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On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 01:57:14PM -0800,
 Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote 
 a message of 42 lines which said:

> the fact that i have to hotwire my RDNS cache with local zone glue
> in order to reach my own servers when my comcast circuit is down or
> i can't currently reach the .SU authorities to learn where VIX.SU
> is, should not only concern, but also embarrass, all of us.

I agree that this is an issue (as you said, the simple case of "my own
zone" is easily solved by stub and/or forward zones in BIND) but any
solution must take care of phantom domains. If I register
malware-c-and-c-as-a-service.com and it's taken down, the solution
should not make this domain to work after. (Except of course for
resolvers who decided to configure a stub zone for this domain.)


From nobody Fri Feb 15 04:49:02 2019
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From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>
To: Bob Harold <rharolde@umich.edu>
Cc: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>, Jiankang Yao <yaojk@cnnic.cn>, IETF DNSOP WG <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Fw: New Version Notification for draft-arnt-yao-dnsop-root-data-caching-00.txt
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On Thursday 14 February 2019 22:41:56 CET, Bob Harold wrote:
> The draft assumes typical TTL is a week, but what I see in the root zone is:
...

I hoped noone would notice. It's good rather than bad, overall, but it 
complicates the description.

A good resolver verifies DNSSEC, so the two-day RRs tend to be kept alive 
for as long as the six-day RRs are. Once the six-day RRs are discarded from 
the resolver's cache, the two-day RRs are no longer needed for 
verification, and after about a month they cease being refreshed.

In effect, the six-day RRs (typically NS records) have an average lifetime 
of slightly less than three months after the last use, and the supporting 
DNSSEC RRs of slightly more than four months after the last time the NS is 
needed.

The SOA record is a special case, but IMO too minor to matter. The focus 
here is to eliminate root-zone queries as a significant delay factor for 
day-to-day DNS use, without introducing additional moving parts such as 
humans or crontabs downloading zone files. Caching one SOA too long or too 
short won't make much difference.

Arnt


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References: <4d51e683.32d.168ea651be8.Coremail.yaojk@cnnic.cn> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902141349060.18720@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <587d85ee-73bc-40f4-aae8-550d877ca6d1@gulbrandsen.priv.no> <CA+nkc8Bkpr7PDSyWjGQftaODj7pffmzWJUeYghGScFLi0CyHpw@mail.gmail.com> <a3ef79a2-5efd-47e2-aa0c-1be5412ffcfc@gulbrandsen.priv.no>
In-Reply-To: <a3ef79a2-5efd-47e2-aa0c-1be5412ffcfc@gulbrandsen.priv.no>
From: Bob Harold <rharolde@umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:13:55 -0500
Message-ID: <CA+nkc8CnBbmvy-=_UOO3fqTDeTSSgUvxDu0i+P3Qyob=4E3RyA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>
Cc: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>, Jiankang Yao <yaojk@cnnic.cn>, IETF DNSOP WG <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Fw: New Version Notification for draft-arnt-yao-dnsop-root-data-caching-00.txt
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On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 7:49 AM Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>
wrote:

> On Thursday 14 February 2019 22:41:56 CET, Bob Harold wrote:
> > The draft assumes typical TTL is a week, but what I see in the root zone
> is:
> ...
>
> I hoped noone would notice. It's good rather than bad, overall, but it
> complicates the description.
>
> A good resolver verifies DNSSEC, so the two-day RRs tend to be kept alive
> for as long as the six-day RRs are. Once the six-day RRs are discarded
> from
> the resolver's cache, the two-day RRs are no longer needed for
> verification, and after about a month they cease being refreshed.
>
> In effect, the six-day RRs (typically NS records) have an average
> lifetime

of slightly less than three months after the last use, and the supporting
> DNSSEC RRs of slightly more than four months after the last time the NS is
> needed.
>
> The SOA record is a special case, but IMO too minor to matter. The focus
> here is to eliminate root-zone queries as a significant delay factor for
> day-to-day DNS use, without introducing additional moving parts such as
> humans or crontabs downloading zone files. Caching one SOA too long or too
> short won't make much difference.
>
> Arnt
>

No, the NS records and DNSSEC records only have two days.
There are no 6-day records,  except the X.root-servers.net
<http://x.root-servers.net/> entries, which do not apply here.

-- 
Bob Harold

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 7:49 AM Arnt Gulb=
randsen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no">arnt@gulbrandsen.pr=
iv.no</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex">On Thursday 14 February 2019 22:41:56 CET, Bob Harold wrote:<br>
&gt; The draft assumes typical TTL is a week, but what I see in the root zo=
ne is:<br>
...<br>
<br>
I hoped noone would notice. It&#39;s good rather than bad, overall, but it =
<br>
complicates the description.<br>
<br>
A good resolver verifies DNSSEC, so the two-day RRs tend to be kept alive <=
br>
for as long as the six-day RRs are. Once the six-day RRs are discarded from=
 <br>
the resolver&#39;s cache, the two-day RRs are no longer needed for <br>
verification, and after about a month they cease being refreshed.<br>
<br>
In effect, the six-day RRs (typically NS records) have an average lifetime=
=C2=A0=C2=A0</blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
of slightly less than three months after the last use, and the supporting <=
br>
DNSSEC RRs of slightly more than four months after the last time the NS is =
<br>
needed.<br>
<br>
The SOA record is a special case, but IMO too minor to matter. The focus <b=
r>
here is to eliminate root-zone queries as a significant delay factor for <b=
r>
day-to-day DNS use, without introducing additional moving parts such as <br=
>
humans or crontabs downloading zone files. Caching one SOA too long or too =
<br>
short won&#39;t make much difference.<br>
<br>
Arnt<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>No, the NS records and DNSSEC reco=
rds only have two days.<br></div><div>There are no 6-day records,=C2=A0 exc=
ept the=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://x.root-servers.net/" target=3D"_blank">X.roo=
t-servers.net</a>=C2=A0entries, which do not apply here.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>--=C2=A0</div><div>Bob Harold</div><div><br></div></div></div>

--00000000000050b08c0581ef63a8--


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In-Reply-To: <20190215095936.qnxuucn6oezj7tsx@nic.fr>
From: Bob Harold <rharolde@umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:29:29 -0500
Message-ID: <CA+nkc8BcuaGC4TKUzY429Hh2=dZk2dA48=P2ecjwvhV466hT4Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
Cc: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>, IETF DNSOP WG <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] the root is not special, everybody please stop obsessing over it
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On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 4:59 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 01:57:14PM -0800,
>  Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote
>  a message of 42 lines which said:
>
> > the fact that i have to hotwire my RDNS cache with local zone glue
> > in order to reach my own servers when my comcast circuit is down or
> > i can't currently reach the .SU authorities to learn where VIX.SU
> > is, should not only concern, but also embarrass, all of us.
>
> I agree that this is an issue (as you said, the simple case of "my own
> zone" is easily solved by stub and/or forward zones in BIND) but any
> solution must take care of phantom domains. If I register
> malware-c-and-c-as-a-service.com and it's taken down, the solution
> should not make this domain to work after. (Except of course for
> resolvers who decided to configure a stub zone for this domain.)
>

I think in most solutions, if the name servers for "
malware-c-and-c-as-a-service.com" and "com" are both unreachable, the
domain should continue to resolve.  But if "com" is reachable, and says "
malware-c-and-c-as-a-service.com" no longer exists, it should go away.

-- 
Bob Harold

--000000000000f97c680581ef9a21
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 4:59 AM Stephane =
Bortzmeyer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr">bortzmeyer@nic.fr</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Thu=
, Feb 14, 2019 at 01:57:14PM -0800,<br>
=C2=A0Paul Vixie &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paul@redbarn.org" target=3D"_blank">=
paul@redbarn.org</a>&gt; wrote <br>
=C2=A0a message of 42 lines which said:<br>
<br>
&gt; the fact that i have to hotwire my RDNS cache with local zone glue<br>
&gt; in order to reach my own servers when my comcast circuit is down or<br=
>
&gt; i can&#39;t currently reach the .SU authorities to learn where <a href=
=3D"http://VIX.SU" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">VIX.SU</a><br>
&gt; is, should not only concern, but also embarrass, all of us.<br>
<br>
I agree that this is an issue (as you said, the simple case of &quot;my own=
<br>
zone&quot; is easily solved by stub and/or forward zones in BIND) but any<b=
r>
solution must take care of phantom domains. If I register<br>
<a href=3D"http://malware-c-and-c-as-a-service.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" targ=
et=3D"_blank">malware-c-and-c-as-a-service.com</a> and it&#39;s taken down,=
 the solution<br>
should not make this domain to work after. (Except of course for<br>
resolvers who decided to configure a stub zone for this domain.)<br></block=
quote><div><br></div><div>I think in most solutions, if the name servers fo=
r &quot;<a href=3D"http://malware-c-and-c-as-a-service.com/" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">malware-c-and-c-as-a-service.com</a>&quot; and &quot=
;com&quot; are both unreachable, the domain should continue to resolve.=C2=
=A0 But if &quot;com&quot; is reachable, and says &quot;<a href=3D"http://m=
alware-c-and-c-as-a-service.com/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">malw=
are-c-and-c-as-a-service.com</a>&quot; no longer exists, it should go away.=
</div><div><br></div><div>--=C2=A0</div><div>Bob Harold</div><div><br></div=
></div></div>

--000000000000f97c680581ef9a21--


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Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 15:34:46 +0100
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: Bob Harold <rharolde@umich.edu>
Cc: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>, IETF DNSOP WG <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Subject: [DNSOP] Making domains work even when connectivity fails (Was: the root is not special, everybody please stop obsessing  over it
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On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 09:29:29AM -0500,
 Bob Harold <rharolde@umich.edu> wrote 
 a message of 73 lines which said:

> I think in most solutions, if the name servers for "
> malware-c-and-c-as-a-service.com" and "com" are both unreachable,
> the domain should continue to resolve.  But if "com" is reachable,
> and says " malware-c-and-c-as-a-service.com" no longer exists, it
> should go away.

Any volunteer to write a problem statement for the "VIX.SU issue"?
Short version: "when I'm on the same network that at least one
authoritative name server of VIX.SU, I want this domain to work, even if there
is zero Internet connectivity to the outside world" Longer version:
"TODO (think of: is it automatic or not, does it require prior access
or not, phantom domains, etc)"


From nobody Fri Feb 15 08:39:19 2019
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To: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
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References: <b45edb5e-1508-0b02-a14c-a5be4ca9c0e6@redbarn.org> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902150938540.18720@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk>
From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
Message-ID: <0a5283f8-5511-4c04-9d3b-a6611820fc01@redbarn.org>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 08:39:13 -0800
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] the root is not special, everybody please stop obsessing over it
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Tony Finch wrote on 2019-02-15 01:47:
> ...
> 
> We have local stealth secondary copies of our zones on our recursive
> servers which helps to some extent, except when downstream validators want
> to get the chain of trust. But serve-stale should help.

prefetching or leasing or rrset subscription is expensive when viewed 
from the dns-at-large perspective. we ought to prioritize the 
information we will need most in the event of a network partition. and 
the idea that an operator would have to predict where a partition could 
take place, and add stealth secondaries for the things they know about, 
is wrong in two ways. it's too much work, and never enough benefit.

> I wonder if it's worth having different prefetch logic for infrastructure
> records (NS, DS, glue, etc) to more eagerly keep them warm than leaf
> records.

yes, it obviously is, but only if you intend to use them even if the 
authority for some of your data is at that moment not reachable. so, 
serve-stale and hammer attempt to solve the wrong problem. if you're 
going to use something the way a stealth slave would do, you've got to 
ask the authority's instructions, and be capable of hearing and trusting 
NOTIFY events when that data changes for any reason.

-- 
P Vixie


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To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
Cc: Bob Harold <rharolde@umich.edu>, IETF DNSOP WG <dnsop@ietf.org>
References: <b45edb5e-1508-0b02-a14c-a5be4ca9c0e6@redbarn.org> <20190215095936.qnxuucn6oezj7tsx@nic.fr> <CA+nkc8BcuaGC4TKUzY429Hh2=dZk2dA48=P2ecjwvhV466hT4Q@mail.gmail.com> <20190215143446.6vp57cmlsesswnlt@nic.fr>
From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 08:44:18 -0800
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Making domains work even when connectivity fails (Was: the root is not special, everybody please stop obsessing over it
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Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote on 2019-02-15 06:34:
> On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 09:29:29AM -0500,
>   Bob Harold <rharolde@umich.edu> wrote
>   a message of 73 lines which said:
> 
>> I think in most solutions, if the name servers for "
>> malware-c-and-c-as-a-service.com" and "com" are both unreachable,
>> the domain should continue to resolve.  But if "com" is reachable,
>> and says " malware-c-and-c-as-a-service.com" no longer exists, it
>> should go away.

this is why serve-stale is most wrong. permission, and an agreement to 
hear a trusted NOTIFY later if the authority wants to do the work of 
keeping track of who it told things to, and the work of telling them 
when something has importantly changed (like a glue address change, a 
name server change, a key change, a signature invalidated, or malware 
removed). this is a subscription (leasing) problem, not a caching one.

> Any volunteer to write a problem statement for the "VIX.SU issue"?
> Short version: "when I'm on the same network that at least one
> authoritative name server of VIX.SU, I want this domain to work, even if there
> is zero Internet connectivity to the outside world" Longer version:
> "TODO (think of: is it automatic or not, does it require prior access
> or not, phantom domains, etc)"

just as root-level is the wrong focus, so is local-level. the reason we 
don't solve this problem with multicast NOTIFY is that the information 
you may need a subscription to (due to potential network partitioning) 
could be in another campus, or another region, or another isp, or 
another country.

-- 
P Vixie


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From: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
cc: Alexander Mayrhofer <alex.mayrhofer.ietf@gmail.com>,  IETF DNSOP WG <dnsop@ietf.org>, din@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [Din] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-mayrhofer-did-dns-01.txt
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On Fri, 15 Feb 2019, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:

> Subject: Re: [Din] Fwd: New Version Notification for
>     draft-mayrhofer-did-dns-01.txt

I think this document should be Experimental and not Standards Track?

The reference to 7929 should be normative, not informative, since
you actually need to read a secion of 7929 to implement this document.

I'm not sure if one should use _did.example.com for host names and
_mailto._did.example.com for email addresses. I would keep that at
the same level, eg:

_hostname._did.example.com
_mailto._did.example.com

This technically also allows one to separate the two DNS zones more
clearly (and could even be managed by a different group)

I'm really on the fence for this document. On the one hand, it is good
to have a memorable decentralized identifier, but on the other hand if
you rely on DNS (and DNSSEC), is this identifier really still
decentralised in the "we don't trust the USG or Verisign" way ?

I guess if you interpret it as a migration strategy away from DNS, it is okay.

Paul


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To: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
Cc: IETF DNSOP WG <dnsop@ietf.org>, din@irtf.org, Alexander Mayrhofer <alex.mayrhofer.ietf@gmail.com>
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From: Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@nomountain.net>
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On 2/15/19 9:46 AM, Paul Wouters wrote:
> This technically also allows one to separate the two DNS zones more
> clearly (and could even be managed by a different group)
> 
> I'm really on the fence for this document. On the one hand, it is good
> to have a memorable decentralized identifier, but on the other hand if
> you rely on DNS (and DNSSEC), is this identifier really still
> decentralised in the "we don't trust the USG or Verisign" way ?

I think the question of whether or not to provide
decentralized identifiers and whether or not this proposal
delivers on the "decentralized" claim is out of our hands,
as the core spec (which has a lot of additional problems)
comes out of the W3C.  I think the IETF's involvement is
probably limited to their use of DNS in the resolution
process.

Melinda

p.s. and it's probably worth pointing out that this work is
being done in a W3C community group, so until it looks like
it's actually going to be published as a WC3 spec I'm not
sure I'd like to see IETF working group resources being
spent on this.

-- 
Software longa, hardware brevis

PGP key fingerprint  4F68 2D93 2A17 96F8 20F2
                     34C0 DFB8 9172 9A76 DB8F


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In-Reply-To: <9a7b4bc4-018a-9f8c-d3fd-2428356d6605@time-travellers.org>
From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 16:21:50 -0500
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To: Shane Kerr <shane@time-travellers.org>
Cc: dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Multiplexing DNS & HTTP over TLS
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On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 8:24 AM Shane Kerr <shane@time-travellers.org>
wrote:

> Klaus,
>
> On 14/02/2019 14.00, Klaus Malorny wrote:
> > On 14.02.19 11:03, Shane Kerr wrote:
> >
> >> Is there a write-up on this?
> >>
> >> Thinking about it naively, a demultiplexer really only needs to say
> >> "is there a non-ASCII character in the first 2 or 3 bytes of a TLS
> >> session?".
> >>
> > please think of HTTP/2, which is a binary protocol (although I don't
> > know what the first bytes are). But I guess ALPN (RFC 7301) would do th=
e
> > trick.
>
> I think that HTTP/2 preserves the initial handshake of HTTP/1.1.
>
> But looking at ALPN, it was designed for exactly this the multiplexing
> use case. In principle all that would be needed is adding an identifier
> to the ALPN protocol IDs:
>
>
> https://www.iana.org/assignments/tls-extensiontype-values/tls-extensionty=
pe-values.xhtml#alpn-protocol-ids
>
> It would also address Joe's concerns about other protocols.
>
> Maybe creating an ALPN protocol ID for DNS-over-TLS is something for the
> DPRIVE working group? =F0=9F=A4=94
>

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/dns-privacy/?q=3DALPN

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hoffman-dprive-dns-tls-alpn-00

https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-dkg-dprive-demux-dns-http-03.txt

I'd encourage folk to go read the archive (and, again, there is a WG for
this -- https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/dprive/about/ ).

W



>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Shane
>
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>


--=20
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in
the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of
pants.
   ---maf

--000000000000181b890581f55f00
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 8:24 AM Shan=
e Kerr &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shane@time-travellers.org">shane@time-travelle=
rs.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex">Klaus,<br>
<br>
On 14/02/2019 14.00, Klaus Malorny wrote:<br>
&gt; On 14.02.19 11:03, Shane Kerr wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Is there a write-up on this?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Thinking about it naively, a demultiplexer really only needs to sa=
y <br>
&gt;&gt; &quot;is there a non-ASCII character in the first 2 or 3 bytes of =
a TLS <br>
&gt;&gt; session?&quot;.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; please think of HTTP/2, which is a binary protocol (although I don&#39=
;t <br>
&gt; know what the first bytes are). But I guess ALPN (RFC 7301) would do t=
he <br>
&gt; trick.<br>
<br>
I think that HTTP/2 preserves the initial handshake of HTTP/1.1.<br>
<br>
But looking at ALPN, it was designed for exactly this the multiplexing <br>
use case. In principle all that would be needed is adding an identifier <br=
>
to the ALPN protocol IDs:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/tls-extensiontype-values/tls-ex=
tensiontype-values.xhtml#alpn-protocol-ids" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://www.iana.org/assignments/tls-extensiontype-values/tls-extensi=
ontype-values.xhtml#alpn-protocol-ids</a><br>
<br>
It would also address Joe&#39;s concerns about other protocols.<br>
<br>
Maybe creating an ALPN protocol ID for DNS-over-TLS is something for the <b=
r>
DPRIVE working group? =F0=9F=A4=94<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><a h=
ref=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/dns-privacy/?q=3DALPN">http=
s://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/dns-privacy/?q=3DALPN</a><br></div><di=
v><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hoffman-dpriv=
e-dns-tls-alpn-00">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hoffman-dprive-dns-tls=
-alpn-00</a><br></div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/a=
rchive/id/draft-dkg-dprive-demux-dns-http-03.txt">https://www.ietf.org/arch=
ive/id/draft-dkg-dprive-demux-dns-http-03.txt</a><br></div><div><br></div><=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I=
&#39;d encourage folk to go read the archive (and, again, there is a WG for=
 this --=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/dprive/about/" sty=
le=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">https://datatracker.ietf.org/=
wg/dprive/about/</a>=C2=A0).</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">W</div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
--<br>
Shane<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DNSOP mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DNSOP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">DNSOP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature">I don&#39;t think the execution is relevant when=
 it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.<br>This is like putting ra=
bid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen tho=
se particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf<=
/div></div>

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From: william manning <chinese.apricot@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2019 10:00:55 -0800
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To: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, Bob Harold <rharolde@umich.edu>,  IETF DNSOP WG <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Making domains work even when connectivity fails (Was: the root is not special, everybody please stop obsessing over it
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--000000000000ca6684058206acf4
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Multicast NOTIFY?  You mean like RFC 6804, or RFC 7558.  Use of a
subscription model or lease still depends on reachability and when you
don't have that, you have two choices, use a stale lease or abandon it.
Take your pick.

/Wm

On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 8:44 AM Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:

>
>
> Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote on 2019-02-15 06:34:
> > On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 09:29:29AM -0500,
> >   Bob Harold <rharolde@umich.edu> wrote
> >   a message of 73 lines which said:
> >
> >> I think in most solutions, if the name servers for "
> >> malware-c-and-c-as-a-service.com" and "com" are both unreachable,
> >> the domain should continue to resolve.  But if "com" is reachable,
> >> and says " malware-c-and-c-as-a-service.com" no longer exists, it
> >> should go away.
>
> this is why serve-stale is most wrong. permission, and an agreement to
> hear a trusted NOTIFY later if the authority wants to do the work of
> keeping track of who it told things to, and the work of telling them
> when something has importantly changed (like a glue address change, a
> name server change, a key change, a signature invalidated, or malware
> removed). this is a subscription (leasing) problem, not a caching one.
>
> > Any volunteer to write a problem statement for the "VIX.SU issue"?
> > Short version: "when I'm on the same network that at least one
> > authoritative name server of VIX.SU, I want this domain to work, even
> if there
> > is zero Internet connectivity to the outside world" Longer version:
> > "TODO (think of: is it automatic or not, does it require prior access
> > or not, phantom domains, etc)"
>
> just as root-level is the wrong focus, so is local-level. the reason we
> don't solve this problem with multicast NOTIFY is that the information
> you may need a subscription to (due to potential network partitioning)
> could be in another campus, or another region, or another isp, or
> another country.
>
> --
> P Vixie
>
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>

--000000000000ca6684058206acf4
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Multicast NOTIFY?=C2=A0 You mean like RFC 6804, or RFC 755=
8.=C2=A0 Use of a subscription model or lease still depends on reachability=
 and when you don&#39;t have that, you have two choices, use a stale lease =
or abandon it.=C2=A0 Take your pick.<div><br></div><div>/Wm</div></div><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Fe=
b 15, 2019 at 8:44 AM Paul Vixie &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paul@redbarn.org">pa=
ul@redbarn.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote on 2019-02-15 06:34:<br>
&gt; On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 09:29:29AM -0500,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Bob Harold &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rharolde@umich.edu" targe=
t=3D"_blank">rharolde@umich.edu</a>&gt; wrote<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0a message of 73 lines which said:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; I think in most solutions, if the name servers for &quot;<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://malware-c-and-c-as-a-service.com" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">malware-c-and-c-as-a-service.com</a>&quot; and &quot=
;com&quot; are both unreachable,<br>
&gt;&gt; the domain should continue to resolve.=C2=A0 But if &quot;com&quot=
; is reachable,<br>
&gt;&gt; and says &quot; <a href=3D"http://malware-c-and-c-as-a-service.com=
" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">malware-c-and-c-as-a-service.com</a>=
&quot; no longer exists, it<br>
&gt;&gt; should go away.<br>
<br>
this is why serve-stale is most wrong. permission, and an agreement to <br>
hear a trusted NOTIFY later if the authority wants to do the work of <br>
keeping track of who it told things to, and the work of telling them <br>
when something has importantly changed (like a glue address change, a <br>
name server change, a key change, a signature invalidated, or malware <br>
removed). this is a subscription (leasing) problem, not a caching one.<br>
<br>
&gt; Any volunteer to write a problem statement for the &quot;<a href=3D"ht=
tp://VIX.SU" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">VIX.SU</a> issue&quot;?<b=
r>
&gt; Short version: &quot;when I&#39;m on the same network that at least on=
e<br>
&gt; authoritative name server of <a href=3D"http://VIX.SU" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">VIX.SU</a>, I want this domain to work, even if there=
<br>
&gt; is zero Internet connectivity to the outside world&quot; Longer versio=
n:<br>
&gt; &quot;TODO (think of: is it automatic or not, does it require prior ac=
cess<br>
&gt; or not, phantom domains, etc)&quot;<br>
<br>
just as root-level is the wrong focus, so is local-level. the reason we <br=
>
don&#39;t solve this problem with multicast NOTIFY is that the information =
<br>
you may need a subscription to (due to potential network partitioning) <br>
could be in another campus, or another region, or another isp, or <br>
another country.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
P Vixie<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DNSOP mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DNSOP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">DNSOP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000ca6684058206acf4--


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As of January 25, every TLD server is EDNS aware.

-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742              INTERNET: marka@isc.org


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Domain Name System Operations WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Algorithm Implementation Requirements and Usage Guidance for DNSSEC
        Authors         : Paul Wouters
                          Ondrej Sury
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update-06.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2019-02-17

Abstract:
   The DNSSEC protocol makes use of various cryptographic algorithms in
   order to provide authentication of DNS data and proof of non-
   existence.  To ensure interoperability between DNS resolvers and DNS
   authoritative servers, it is necessary to specify a set of algorithm
   implementation requirements and usage guidelines to ensure that there
   is at least one algorithm that all implementations support.  This
   document defines the current algorithm implementation requirements
   and usage guidance for DNSSEC.  This document obsoletes [RFC6944].


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update-06
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update-06

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update-06


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 19:13:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@internetstiftelsen.se>
cc: "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Last Call: <draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update-05.txt> (Algorithm Implementation Requirements and Usage Guidance for DNSSEC) to Proposed Standard
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On Fri, 15 Feb 2019, Mats Dufberg wrote:

> The table in section 3.3 ("DS and CDS Algorithms") of the draft states that SHA-1 is "MUST NOT" for "DNSSEC Delegation" but in the narrative text under the table it states "SHA-1 [...] is NOT RECOMMENDED for use in generating new DS and CDS records."
>
> The two statements should be consistent in the final RFC.

Done, thanks for spotting that.

https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update-06.txt

     SHA-1 is still in wide use for DS records, so validators MUST
-   implement validation, but it is NOT RECOMMENDED for use in generating
-   new DS and CDS records.  (See Operational Considerations for caveats
-   when upgrading from SHA-1 to SHA-256 DS Algorithm.)
+   implement validation, but it MUST NOT be used to generate new DS and
+   CDS records.  (See Operational Considerations for caveats when
+   upgrading from SHA-1 to SHA-256 DS Algorithm.)

Paul


From nobody Sun Feb 17 20:14:32 2019
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Thanks Benno. Thanks all reviewers for your time reviewing ATR draft. =
I'm
sorry it is not adopted in WG but I still think the draft and the peer
reviews help us to understand the problems better.

Davey
> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----
> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: DNSOP [mailto:dnsop-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED =
Benno Overeinder
> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2019=C4=EA2=D4=C214=C8=D5 23:58
> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: dnsop@ietf.org
> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [DNSOP] Call for Adoption: draft-song-atr-large-resp
>=20
> The call for acceptance for draft-song-atr-large-resp is closed, and =
it is
clear
> that there is insufficient support to adopt the concept as a DNSOP WG
> document.
>=20
> There was some concern about the increased number of packages involved =
in
a
> legitimate exchange (half of them being ICMP messages, introducing =
other
> concerns) and that the problem space is too narrow to burden all
resolvers.
>=20
> We would like to thank the authors and WG participants who responded =
to
the
> call for adoption on the mailing list.
>=20
> Best regards,
>=20
> -- Benno
> DNSOP co-chair
>=20
>=20
> On 18/01/2019 18:55, Benno Overeinder wrote:
> > Dear DNSOP WG,
> >
> > We discussed this work (draft -01) in Montreal, and different =
opinions
wrt.
> adoption were expressed.  In the past months, the authors pushed a =
draft
> version -02 that addressed and resolved some of these comments.
> >
> > This starts a Call for Adoption for:
> > draft-song-atr-large-resp
> >
> > The draft is available here:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-atr-large-resp/
> >
> > Please review this draft to see if you think it is suitable for =
adoption
by DNSOP,
> and comments to the list, clearly stating your view.
> >
> > Please also indicate if you are willing to contribute text, review, =
etc.
The
> WG accepts the document or not, but the WG chairs also expect a =
commitment
> from the WG participants who support the document to contribute to the
draft,
> review, etc.
> >
> > The intended status of the draft is Experimental, but we want to ask
> developers/vendors if they plan to implement it.
> >
> > This call for adoption ends: 1 February 2019
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Benno Overeinder
> > DNSOP co-chair
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > DNSOP mailing list
> > DNSOP@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
> >
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop




From nobody Mon Feb 18 06:01:11 2019
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From: Alexander Mayrhofer <alex.mayrhofer.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 15:00:54 +0100
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To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
Cc: IETF DNSOP WG <dnsop@ietf.org>, din@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-mayrhofer-did-dns-01.txt
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Stephane, all,

[I feel cautious about continuing to cross-post this to dnsop as well
as dinrg - however, it does apply to both areas, so i'll keep both
groups in for now]

On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 10:37 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> wrote:
> I think that it is an important work because it brings the power of
> the DNS to many other identifier systems. So, I support it.

Thanks - great to hear. I'm hearing that DIDs are being used in more
and more situations, so i think it makes sense to define that
"bridging" protocol between the two "worlds.

> May be more examples could help people figure out the use cases? "My
> Bitcoin address is at foobar.example" and then the Bitcoin software
> would query _did.foobar.example and get
> <did:bitcoin:1NZc7FJ7eHJgRMRSrmncJJM9bPnusJeuR6>.

I will add more examples in the next revision. We also need to include
an example for the "email address" use case.

> I note that there exists already non-standard (and probably not really
> deployed) solutions in that space, some specific to a TLD
> <https://www.nominet.uk/domain-names-unlock-new-potential-on-blockchain/>
> <http://domainincite.com/23273-my-brain-explodes-trying-to-understand-mmxs-new-blockchain-deal-for-luxe>

I'm aware of the .luxe initiative, however, i haven't yet seen any
technical specifications about how the connection between DNS and
Blockchains is performed. If anybody has a pointer, i'd definitely
appreciate it.

The other alternative proposal i've found is https://openalias.org/ -
scroll down for their definition of the TXT record. They don't use
DIDs as far as i understand, though.

> Regarding draft -01: it seems OK to me. The only problem I find:
>
> > particularly the concerns around downgrade attacks when the record
> > is not signed
>
> Why downgrade attacks specifically? Without DNSSEC, a lot of attacks
> are possible.

I agree, that section requires some rewording. I'm referring to the
language in the OpenPGP DANE RFC here. I'm happy to work on more text,
and open to suggestions :)

best,
Alex


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From: Alexander Mayrhofer <alex.mayrhofer.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 15:14:07 +0100
Message-ID: <CAHXf=0qgxxRdVm6wwA6xs=5vVjEvFL5G9YLmxhqT9RZKn95uwg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, IETF DNSOP WG <dnsop@ietf.org>, din@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [Din] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-mayrhofer-did-dns-01.txt
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Paul,

On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 7:47 PM Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> wrote:
> I think this document should be Experimental and not Standards Track?

I was torn when i did the first revision of this. I think it depends
on the stability of Decentralized Identifiers themselves. Once that
schema becomes widely used, i think any protocol that connects the DNS
and DIDs should be Standards Track. But i leave that up to "higher
forces" as soon as i find a suitable "home WG" for that.

> The reference to 7929 should be normative, not informative, since
> you actually need to read a secion of 7929 to implement this document.

Agreed. I've considered replacing the "instruction diff" to OpenPGP
with a full description in the document itself. The idea to use that
scheme in email came in quite late before i wrote -00, so that section
also reflects some laziness. With the "two label" hierarchy introduced
in -01, i think a full description would be better anyways. Well do so
in -02. Which, in turn, would allow the 7929 reference to stay
informative.

> I'm not sure if one should use _did.example.com for host names and
> _mailto._did.example.com for email addresses. I would keep that at
> the same level, eg:
>
> _hostname._did.example.com
> _mailto._did.example.com

I'd love to have a discussion about semantics of both options at some
point. Maybe we can do a short meeting during IETF104? I know there
are many ways to do that, and personally i'm not sure which way would
be the "right" one.

> This technically also allows one to separate the two DNS zones more
> clearly (and could even be managed by a different group)

Yep, introduces a zone cut. Then again, i'm not sure what (if we
introduce that schema above) the semantics of a record right unter
_did would be.. Or would that be disallowed?

> I'm really on the fence for this document. On the one hand, it is good
> to have a memorable decentralized identifier, but on the other hand if
> you rely on DNS (and DNSSEC), is this identifier really still
> decentralised in the "we don't trust the USG or Verisign" way ?

The identifier is still fully decentralized, the method of discovery
probably not. I've also heard that from folks from the Self Sovereign
Identity community... However, they are seeking ways for people to
discover DIDs. Commonly used are QR codes, but everyone is aware that
replacing the QR code on an ATM machine would create an easy of "real
world" phishing, so other methods of discovery are definitely worth
investigating.

> I guess if you interpret it as a migration strategy away from DNS, it is okay.

Note that we could also create a "full loop" of verification. The DID
document published behind a DID could include a link back to the
domain name. I've not investigated that further, though, but it's an
interesting area.

So, would you be interested to discuss this in Prague?

best,
Alex


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From: Alexander Mayrhofer <alex.mayrhofer.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 15:17:37 +0100
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To: Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@nomountain.net>
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On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 8:47 PM Melinda Shore
<melinda.shore@nomountain.net> wrote:
> I think the question of whether or not to provide
> decentralized identifiers and whether or not this proposal
> delivers on the "decentralized" claim is out of our hands,
> as the core spec (which has a lot of additional problems)
> comes out of the W3C.  I think the IETF's involvement is
> probably limited to their use of DNS in the resolution
> process.

I do agree. We provide the "link" from an IETF protocol to a protocol
developed in another SDO.

> p.s. and it's probably worth pointing out that this work is
> being done in a W3C community group, so until it looks like
> it's actually going to be published as a WC3 spec I'm not
> sure I'd like to see IETF working group resources being
> spent on this.

Yes, exactly, this is a community group work right now. However, i do
understand that the "upgrade" to a working group is currently
underway.

best,
Alex


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From nobody Mon Feb 18 15:34:19 2019
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From: Tom Pusateri <pusateri@bangj.com>
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Subject: [DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
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DNSOP,

We have updated the TIMEOUT resource record draft based on the great =
feedback from Mark Andrews, Joe Abley, Ted Lemon, and Paul Vixie. I =
think we have addressed all of the comments except for the Date format =
concern from Mark. That is still an outstanding issue. Please comment on =
it if you have an opinion or feel free to open other issues against the =
document or send comments to the list.

The TIMEOUT RR is just like any other resource record now with no =
special handling.

Issues are on Github:
https://github.com/pusateri/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout/issues

Thanks,
Tom & Tim


> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
> Date: February 18, 2019 at 6:26:35 PM EST
> To: "Tim Wattenberg" <mail@timwattenberg.de>, "Tom Pusateri" =
<pusateri@bangj.com>
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Tom Pusateri and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:		draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout
> Revision:	01
> Title:		DNS TIMEOUT Resource Record
> Document date:	2019-02-18
> Group:		Individual Submission
> Pages:		13
> URL:            =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-0=
1.txt
> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout/
> Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01
> Htmlized:       =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout
> Diff:           =
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01=

>=20
> Abstract:
>   This specification defines a new DNS TIMEOUT resource record (RR)
>   that associates a lifetime with one or more zone resource records
>   with the same owner name, type, and class.  It is intended to be =
used
>   to transfer resource record lifetime state between a zone's primary
>   and secondary servers and to store lifetime state during server
>   software restarts.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_B0D5A08F-891D-41E2-A7AE-E8BDE23FC461
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	charset=us-ascii

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">DNSOP,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">We =
have updated the TIMEOUT resource record draft based on the great =
feedback from Mark Andrews, Joe Abley, Ted Lemon, and Paul Vixie. I =
think we have addressed all of the comments except for the Date format =
concern from Mark. That is still an outstanding issue. Please comment on =
it if you have an opinion or feel free to open other issues against the =
document or send comments to the list.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The TIMEOUT RR is just like any other =
resource record now with no special handling.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Issues are on Github:</div><div =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/pusateri/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout/is=
sues" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/pusateri/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout=
/issues</a><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div class=3D"">Tom &amp; Tim</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Begin =
forwarded message:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org<br =
class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">New Version =
Notification for draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt</b><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">February 18, 2019 at 6:26:35 PM =
EST<br class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">To: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">"Tim Wattenberg" =
&lt;mail@timwattenberg.de&gt;, "Tom Pusateri" =
&lt;pusateri@bangj.com&gt;<br class=3D""></span></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">A new version of I-D, =
draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt<br class=3D"">has been =
successfully submitted by Tom Pusateri and posted to the<br =
class=3D"">IETF repository.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Name:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout<br class=3D"">Revision:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>01<br =
class=3D"">Title:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">=
	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>DNS TIMEOUT Resource Record<br class=3D"">Document date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>2019-02-18<br class=3D"">Group:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Individual Submission<br =
class=3D"">Pages:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">=
	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>13<br class=3D"">URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;https://=
www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt<br=
 class=3D"">Status: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;https://datatracker.ietf.o=
rg/doc/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout/<br class=3D"">Htmlized: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pusa=
teri-dnsop-update-timeout-01<br class=3D"">Htmlized: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/=
draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout<br class=3D"">Diff: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;https://www.ie=
tf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Abstract:<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;This =
specification defines a new DNS TIMEOUT resource record (RR)<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;that associates a lifetime with one or more zone =
resource records<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;with the same owner name, =
type, and class. &nbsp;It is intended to be used<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;to transfer resource record lifetime state between a zone's =
primary<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;and secondary servers and to store =
lifetime state during server<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;software =
restarts.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the =
time of submission<br class=3D"">until the htmlized version and diff are =
available at tools.ietf.org.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The IETF =
Secretariat<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_B0D5A08F-891D-41E2-A7AE-E8BDE23FC461--


From nobody Mon Feb 18 16:27:52 2019
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From: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
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I have yet to seen a justification for using SHAKE128 vs any of the =
existing
hash algorithms used in DNS.  You really need to justify this choice on =
security
concerns.  DNS server implementers need to support multiple crypto =
backends and
adding yet another algorithm is not as easy as just calling OpenSSL.  =
It=E2=80=99s writing /
expanding a shim layer.  It=E2=80=99s checking for the existence on all =
the platforms
the server is built on.  Just closing the issue isn=E2=80=99t addressing =
it.

=
https://github.com/pusateri/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout/issues/19

> On 19 Feb 2019, at 10:34 am, Tom Pusateri <pusateri@bangj.com> wrote:
>=20
> DNSOP,
>=20
> We have updated the TIMEOUT resource record draft based on the great =
feedback from Mark Andrews, Joe Abley, Ted Lemon, and Paul Vixie. I =
think we have addressed all of the comments except for the Date format =
concern from Mark. That is still an outstanding issue. Please comment on =
it if you have an opinion or feel free to open other issues against the =
document or send comments to the list.
>=20
> The TIMEOUT RR is just like any other resource record now with no =
special handling.
>=20
> Issues are on Github:
> https://github.com/pusateri/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout/issues
>=20
> Thanks,
> Tom & Tim
>=20
>=20
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>=20
>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>> Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
>> Date: February 18, 2019 at 6:26:35 PM EST
>> To: "Tim Wattenberg" <mail@timwattenberg.de>, "Tom Pusateri" =
<pusateri@bangj.com>
>>=20
>>=20
>> A new version of I-D, draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
>> has been successfully submitted by Tom Pusateri and posted to the
>> IETF repository.
>>=20
>> Name:		draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout
>> Revision:	01
>> Title:		DNS TIMEOUT Resource Record
>> Document date:	2019-02-18
>> Group:		Individual Submission
>> Pages:		13
>> URL:            =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-0=
1.txt
>> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout/
>> Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01
>> Htmlized:       =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout
>> Diff:           =
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01=

>>=20
>> Abstract:
>>   This specification defines a new DNS TIMEOUT resource record (RR)
>>   that associates a lifetime with one or more zone resource records
>>   with the same owner name, type, and class.  It is intended to be =
used
>>   to transfer resource record lifetime state between a zone's primary
>>   and secondary servers and to store lifetime state during server
>>   software restarts.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>=20
>> The IETF Secretariat
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop

--=20
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742              INTERNET: marka@isc.org


From nobody Mon Feb 18 16:47:46 2019
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From: Tom Pusateri <pusateri@bangj.com>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
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Mark,

> Just closing the issue isn=E2=80=99t addressing it.

That=E2=80=99s not a fair point about closing issue #19.

Your main concern was that SHA-3 algorithms might not be easily =
available but, luckily, they shipped with TLS 1.3 in OpenSSL 1.1.1 and =
so I thought #19 was a solved issue.

Regardless, sooner or later, someone will be the first to use a SHA-3 =
algorithm that=E2=80=99s better than the SHA-2 algorithms DNS uses =
today. It=E2=80=99s only a matter of time. SHA-3 has been out since =
2015. As soon as you support TLS 1.3, you=E2=80=99ll have all the SHA-3 =
algorithms with a simple API call and it should be available everywhere =
because TLS 1.3 will be needed everywhere.

I will reopen this issue for discussion but I don=E2=80=99t see yet how =
this is a problem.

Thanks,
Tom

> On Feb 18, 2019, at 7:27 PM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
>=20
> I have yet to seen a justification for using SHAKE128 vs any of the =
existing
> hash algorithms used in DNS.  You really need to justify this choice =
on security
> concerns.  DNS server implementers need to support multiple crypto =
backends and
> adding yet another algorithm is not as easy as just calling OpenSSL.  =
It=E2=80=99s writing /
> expanding a shim layer.  It=E2=80=99s checking for the existence on =
all the platforms
> the server is built on. =20
>=20
> =
https://github.com/pusateri/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout/issues/19
>=20
>> On 19 Feb 2019, at 10:34 am, Tom Pusateri <pusateri@bangj.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> DNSOP,
>>=20
>> We have updated the TIMEOUT resource record draft based on the great =
feedback from Mark Andrews, Joe Abley, Ted Lemon, and Paul Vixie. I =
think we have addressed all of the comments except for the Date format =
concern from Mark. That is still an outstanding issue. Please comment on =
it if you have an opinion or feel free to open other issues against the =
document or send comments to the list.
>>=20
>> The TIMEOUT RR is just like any other resource record now with no =
special handling.
>>=20
>> Issues are on Github:
>> =
https://github.com/pusateri/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout/issues
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>> Tom & Tim
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>=20
>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>> Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
>>> Date: February 18, 2019 at 6:26:35 PM EST
>>> To: "Tim Wattenberg" <mail@timwattenberg.de>, "Tom Pusateri" =
<pusateri@bangj.com>
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> A new version of I-D, draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
>>> has been successfully submitted by Tom Pusateri and posted to the
>>> IETF repository.
>>>=20
>>> Name:		draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout
>>> Revision:	01
>>> Title:		DNS TIMEOUT Resource Record
>>> Document date:	2019-02-18
>>> Group:		Individual Submission
>>> Pages:		13
>>> URL:            =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-0=
1.txt
>>> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout/
>>> Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01
>>> Htmlized:       =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout
>>> Diff:           =
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01=

>>>=20
>>> Abstract:
>>>  This specification defines a new DNS TIMEOUT resource record (RR)
>>>  that associates a lifetime with one or more zone resource records
>>>  with the same owner name, type, and class.  It is intended to be =
used
>>>  to transfer resource record lifetime state between a zone's primary
>>>  and secondary servers and to store lifetime state during server
>>>  software restarts.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>>=20
>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DNSOP mailing list
>> DNSOP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>=20
> --=20
> Mark Andrews, ISC
> 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
> PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742              INTERNET: marka@isc.org
>=20


From nobody Mon Feb 18 17:28:16 2019
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From: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
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> On 19 Feb 2019, at 11:47 am, Tom Pusateri <pusateri@bangj.com> wrote:
>=20
> Mark,
>=20
>> Just closing the issue isn=E2=80=99t addressing it.
>=20
> That=E2=80=99s not a fair point about closing issue #19.
>=20
> Your main concern was that SHA-3 algorithms might not be easily =
available but, luckily, they shipped with TLS 1.3 in OpenSSL 1.1.1 and =
so I thought #19 was a solved issue.
>=20
> Regardless, sooner or later, someone will be the first to use a SHA-3 =
algorithm that=E2=80=99s better than the SHA-2 algorithms DNS uses =
today. It=E2=80=99s only a matter of time. SHA-3 has been out since =
2015. As soon as you support TLS 1.3, you=E2=80=99ll have all the SHA-3 =
algorithms with a simple API call and it should be available everywhere =
because TLS 1.3 will be needed everywhere.

Where is the need to use SHA-3?  This is introducing a new algorithm for =
the sake of
introducing a new algorithm.  Just because TLS 1.3 uses SHAKE128 is not =
a reason for
DNS to use SHAKE128.  There are plenty of platforms that don=E2=80=99t =
need to use TLS at
all.  They don=E2=80=99t have web interfaces.  Transaction security is =
provided by something
other than TLS.

There are also lots of old server platforms that just won=E2=80=99t ever =
upgrade their OpenSSL
package.  Adding SHA-3 creates yet another dependancy / impediment-to =
upgrading the DNS
server.

And before someone mentions DoT and DoH. DoT/DoH have their uses but not =
everywhere
needs to use DoT/DoH.  DoT/DoH adds baggage which isn=E2=80=99t always =
justified.

Mark

> I will reopen this issue for discussion but I don=E2=80=99t see yet =
how this is a problem.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Tom
>=20
>> On Feb 18, 2019, at 7:27 PM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
>>=20
>> I have yet to seen a justification for using SHAKE128 vs any of the =
existing
>> hash algorithms used in DNS.  You really need to justify this choice =
on security
>> concerns.  DNS server implementers need to support multiple crypto =
backends and
>> adding yet another algorithm is not as easy as just calling OpenSSL.  =
It=E2=80=99s writing /
>> expanding a shim layer.  It=E2=80=99s checking for the existence on =
all the platforms
>> the server is built on. =20
>>=20
>> =
https://github.com/pusateri/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout/issues/19
>>=20
>>> On 19 Feb 2019, at 10:34 am, Tom Pusateri <pusateri@bangj.com> =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>> DNSOP,
>>>=20
>>> We have updated the TIMEOUT resource record draft based on the great =
feedback from Mark Andrews, Joe Abley, Ted Lemon, and Paul Vixie. I =
think we have addressed all of the comments except for the Date format =
concern from Mark. That is still an outstanding issue. Please comment on =
it if you have an opinion or feel free to open other issues against the =
document or send comments to the list.
>>>=20
>>> The TIMEOUT RR is just like any other resource record now with no =
special handling.
>>>=20
>>> Issues are on Github:
>>> =
https://github.com/pusateri/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout/issues
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> Tom & Tim
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>=20
>>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
>>>> Date: February 18, 2019 at 6:26:35 PM EST
>>>> To: "Tim Wattenberg" <mail@timwattenberg.de>, "Tom Pusateri" =
<pusateri@bangj.com>
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> A new version of I-D, draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
>>>> has been successfully submitted by Tom Pusateri and posted to the
>>>> IETF repository.
>>>>=20
>>>> Name:		draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout
>>>> Revision:	01
>>>> Title:		DNS TIMEOUT Resource Record
>>>> Document date:	2019-02-18
>>>> Group:		Individual Submission
>>>> Pages:		13
>>>> URL:            =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-0=
1.txt
>>>> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout/
>>>> Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01
>>>> Htmlized:       =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout
>>>> Diff:           =
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01=

>>>>=20
>>>> Abstract:
>>>> This specification defines a new DNS TIMEOUT resource record (RR)
>>>> that associates a lifetime with one or more zone resource records
>>>> with the same owner name, type, and class.  It is intended to be =
used
>>>> to transfer resource record lifetime state between a zone's primary
>>>> and secondary servers and to store lifetime state during server
>>>> software restarts.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
>>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at =
tools.ietf.org.
>>>>=20
>>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> DNSOP mailing list
>>> DNSOP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Mark Andrews, ISC
>> 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
>> PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742              INTERNET: marka@isc.org
>>=20
>=20

--=20
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742              INTERNET: marka@isc.org


From nobody Tue Feb 19 03:54:45 2019
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Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 12:54:36 +0100
From: =?utf-8?B?TWljaGHFgiBLxJlwaWXFhA==?= <michal@isc.org>
To: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@icann.org>
Cc: dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Adding more example configurations to draft-ietf-dnsop-7706bis
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Hi Paul,

Apologies for being late to the party.

> I have seen messages in the past few months about some vendors adding 7=
706, or 7706-like, support to recent versions of their resolvers. It woul=
d be grand if those of you who have shipping implementations of this coul=
d send the configuration steps to the list so we can add them to the appe=
ndix.

BIND 9.14, i.e. the upcoming stable BIND release, will ship with a
feature called mirror zones which facilitates setting up a local,
DNSSEC-validated copy of the root zone.

As of the currently available BIND 9.13.6 development release, a default
list of primary servers for the IANA root zone is built into named and
thus its mirroring can be enabled using the following configuration
snippet:

    zone "." {
        type mirror;
    };

(The above snippet is intended to be used instead of the example BIND
configuration provided in Appendix B to RFC 7706, not in addition to
it.)

Chapter 5 of the BIND 9 ARM discusses how mirror zones work in more
detail:

    https://bind.isc.org/doc/arm/9.13/Bv9ARM.ch05.html#zone_types

Please let me know if anything above is unclear.

--=20
Best regards,
Micha=C5=82 K=C4=99pie=C5=84


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Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 12:27:21 +0000
From: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
To: Tom Pusateri <pusateri@bangj.com>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
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Tom Pusateri <pusateri@bangj.com> wrote:
>
> I think we have addressed all of the comments except for the Date format
> concern from Mark. That is still an outstanding issue.

The DNS currently has a couple of representations of absolute (POSIX
flavoured) time:

RRSIG, SIG, TKEY (32 bits with serial number arithmetic relative to now)

TSIG (48 bits)

It seems silly to invent a third one and prevent servers from re-using
code.

Tony.
-- 
f.anthony.n.finch  <dot@dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
the widest possible distribution of wealth


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Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 15:41:38 -0500
From: Robert Story <rstory@isi.edu>
To: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
Cc: Tom Pusateri <pusateri@bangj.com>, dnsop WG <dnsop@ietf.org>
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On Tue 2019-02-19 12:28:08+1100 Mark wrote:
> Where is the need to use SHA-3?  This is introducing a new algorithm
> for the sake of introducing a new algorithm.  Just because TLS 1.3
> uses SHAKE128 is not a reason for DNS to use SHAKE128.  There are
> plenty of platforms that don=E2=80=99t need to use TLS at all.  They don=
=E2=80=99t
> have web interfaces.  Transaction security is provided by something
> other than TLS.
>=20
> There are also lots of old server platforms that just won=E2=80=99t ever
> upgrade their OpenSSL package.  Adding SHA-3 creates yet another
> dependancy / impediment-to upgrading the DNS server.

I agree with Mark. Even the draft says:

5.  Cryptographic Hash Requirements

   The cryptographic hash algorithm used SHOULD provide the following
   properties:

   1.  Well known algorithm with implementations easily available

I have no objections to SHAKE128 being one of the supported algorithms,
but one of the SHA-2 algorithms should be selected for MUST implement.

--=20
Robert Story <http://www.isi.edu/~rstory>
USC Information Sciences Institute <http://www.isi.edu/>


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Tony,

> Am 19.02.2019 um 13:27 schrieb Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>:
>=20
> The DNS currently has a couple of representations of absolute (POSIX
> flavoured) time:
>=20
> RRSIG, SIG, TKEY (32 bits with serial number arithmetic relative to =
now)
>=20
> TSIG (48 bits)

thanks for bringing up this point again. I was aware of the way RRSIG =
presents time but thanks for pointing us to TSIG =E2=80=93 I hadn=E2=80=99=
t considered this earlier.

Given these possible representations, is there a preference over one of =
the two?

Tim=


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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
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I have read the document.

I have a question about:

    A zone administrator may
    want to enforce a default lifetime for dynamic updates (such as the
    DHCP lease lifetime) or the DNS Update may contain a lifetime using
    an EDNS(0) Update Lease option [I-D.sekar-dns-ul].

This seems a local policy and local implementation issue only.

   However, this
   lease lifetime is not communicated to secondary servers and will not
   endure through server software restarts.

Why does the secondary server need to know the lease lifetime? Only the
primary needs to know this because it will need to purge the records and
update the appropriate DNSSEC entries, something the secondary cannot do
anyway? In fact, Section 8 agrees with me:

    A secondary server MUST NOT expire the records in a zone it maintains
    covered by the TIMEOUT resource record and it MUST NOT expire the
    TIMEOUT resource record itself when the last record it covers has
    expired.  The secondary server MUST always wait for the records to be
    removed or updated by the primary server.

So why is the TIMEOUT record needed? If the secondary argument is
gone, the only argument left from the Introduction is server software
restart. Which seems to me to be an application issue and not a protocol
issue?

As others pointed out, introducing SHA3 into the DNS right now is not
appropriate.

I see a use for clients telling the dns update server what the maximum
possibly lifetime can be, so it can go and perform a delete request on
behalf of vanished clients. But again I don't see this as a protocol
issue needing a TIMEOUT RRTYPE ?

Did I miss anything?

Paul


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From: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
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To: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
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Think disaster recovery and promoting a slave to master.  You have to
transfer state between servers.  You can transfer it in band or out of
band.  If you transfer it out of band you need to invent / specify
yet-another-protocol to do it on top of specifying when records need to
be removed.

Mark

> On 20 Feb 2019, at 9:26 am, Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> wrote:
> 
> 
> I have read the document.
> 
> I have a question about:
> 
>   A zone administrator may
>   want to enforce a default lifetime for dynamic updates (such as the
>   DHCP lease lifetime) or the DNS Update may contain a lifetime using
>   an EDNS(0) Update Lease option [I-D.sekar-dns-ul].
> 
> This seems a local policy and local implementation issue only.
> 
>  However, this
>  lease lifetime is not communicated to secondary servers and will not
>  endure through server software restarts.
> 
> Why does the secondary server need to know the lease lifetime? Only the
> primary needs to know this because it will need to purge the records and
> update the appropriate DNSSEC entries, something the secondary cannot do
> anyway? In fact, Section 8 agrees with me:
> 
>   A secondary server MUST NOT expire the records in a zone it maintains
>   covered by the TIMEOUT resource record and it MUST NOT expire the
>   TIMEOUT resource record itself when the last record it covers has
>   expired.  The secondary server MUST always wait for the records to be
>   removed or updated by the primary server.
> 
> So why is the TIMEOUT record needed? If the secondary argument is
> gone, the only argument left from the Introduction is server software
> restart. Which seems to me to be an application issue and not a protocol
> issue?
> 
> As others pointed out, introducing SHA3 into the DNS right now is not
> appropriate.
> 
> I see a use for clients telling the dns update server what the maximum
> possibly lifetime can be, so it can go and perform a delete request on
> behalf of vanished clients. But again I don't see this as a protocol
> issue needing a TIMEOUT RRTYPE ?
> 
> Did I miss anything?
> 
> Paul
> 
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop

-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742              INTERNET: marka@isc.org


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From: Dick Franks <rwfranks@acm.org>
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On Tue, 19 Feb 2019 at 21:27, Tim Wattenberg <mail@timwattenberg.de> wrote:

> 8<

> RRSIG, SIG, TKEY (32 bits with serial number arithmetic relative to now)
> >
> > TSIG (48 bits)
>
> thanks for bringing up this point again. I was aware of the way RRSIG
> presents time but thanks for pointing us to TSIG =E2=80=93 I hadn=E2=80=
=99t considered this
> earlier.
>

TSIG is an aberration. Using a timescale of 8.9 million years to specify a
window of a few minutes around the current time was a monumental blunder.



> Given these possible representations, is there a preference over one of
> the two?
>

Unsigned 32 bit RRSIG time is good for travel until 7th February 2106.
The fact that 2100 will not be a leap year is likely to be a bigger issue
than wrap-around.

--00000000000018ca4b0582490944
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail=
_attr">On Tue, 19 Feb 2019 at 21:27, Tim Wattenberg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m=
ail@timwattenberg.de">mail@timwattenberg.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">8&lt;=C2=A0</blockquote><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
&gt; RRSIG, SIG, TKEY (32 bits with serial number arithmetic relative to no=
w)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; TSIG (48 bits)<br>
<br>
thanks for bringing up this point again. I was aware of the way RRSIG prese=
nts time but thanks for pointing us to TSIG =E2=80=93 I hadn=E2=80=99t cons=
idered this earlier.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>TSIG is an aberrat=
ion. Using a timescale of 8.9 million years to specify a window of a few mi=
nutes around the current time was a monumental blunder.<br></div><div></div=
><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex">

Given these possible representations, is there a preference over one of the=
 two?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Unsigned 32 bit RRSIG time is goo=
d for travel until 7th February 2106.</div><div>The fact that 2100 will not=
 be a leap year is likely to be a bigger issue than wrap-around. <br></div>=
<div><br></div></div></div>

--00000000000018ca4b0582490944--


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On Wed, 20 Feb 2019, Mark Andrews wrote:

> Think disaster recovery and promoting a slave to master.  You have to
> transfer state between servers.  You can transfer it in band or out of
> band.  If you transfer it out of band you need to invent / specify
> yet-another-protocol to do it on top of specifying when records need to
> be removed.

That is not very convincing to me. disaster recovery scenarios seem to
be solvable by proper admin and by the daemon properly writing state to
disk which can be saved off-site. It also seems a rather rare occurance.

If the primary does DNSSEC, you also have to transfer private keys and
that isn't happening in-band either. So I'm not convinced by the
promotion of secondary to master either.

It also seems these two use cases are mostly solved if you keep your
dynamic update clients within their own zone, which I think is pretty
normal for DHCP based nodes that can make up their own hostname anyway
and shouldn't be able to muck with real static records or apex records.

Paul

>> On 20 Feb 2019, at 9:26 am, Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I have read the document.
>>
>> I have a question about:
>>
>>   A zone administrator may
>>   want to enforce a default lifetime for dynamic updates (such as the
>>   DHCP lease lifetime) or the DNS Update may contain a lifetime using
>>   an EDNS(0) Update Lease option [I-D.sekar-dns-ul].
>>
>> This seems a local policy and local implementation issue only.
>>
>>  However, this
>>  lease lifetime is not communicated to secondary servers and will not
>>  endure through server software restarts.
>>
>> Why does the secondary server need to know the lease lifetime? Only the
>> primary needs to know this because it will need to purge the records and
>> update the appropriate DNSSEC entries, something the secondary cannot do
>> anyway? In fact, Section 8 agrees with me:
>>
>>   A secondary server MUST NOT expire the records in a zone it maintains
>>   covered by the TIMEOUT resource record and it MUST NOT expire the
>>   TIMEOUT resource record itself when the last record it covers has
>>   expired.  The secondary server MUST always wait for the records to be
>>   removed or updated by the primary server.
>>
>> So why is the TIMEOUT record needed? If the secondary argument is
>> gone, the only argument left from the Introduction is server software
>> restart. Which seems to me to be an application issue and not a protocol
>> issue?
>>
>> As others pointed out, introducing SHA3 into the DNS right now is not
>> appropriate.
>>
>> I see a use for clients telling the dns update server what the maximum
>> possibly lifetime can be, so it can go and perform a delete request on
>> behalf of vanished clients. But again I don't see this as a protocol
>> issue needing a TIMEOUT RRTYPE ?
>>
>> Did I miss anything?
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> DNSOP mailing list
>> DNSOP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>
> -- 
> Mark Andrews, ISC
> 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
> PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742              INTERNET: marka@isc.org
>


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From: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
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References: <155053239541.25848.12960190085730298684.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <969D8BA1-6ED3-47E8-AFFD-2BEE8EA3E66B@bangj.com> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902191219070.766@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <0DE33073-93B1-4CF5-B12D-B7266E21E8B2@timwattenberg.de> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902191715230.30381@bofh.nohats.ca> <1F461BFA-638A-4607-84BD-F8B8597A1114@isc.org> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902200028210.29865@bofh.nohats.ca>
To: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
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> On 20 Feb 2019, at 4:35 pm, Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> wrote:
>=20
> On Wed, 20 Feb 2019, Mark Andrews wrote:
>=20
>> Think disaster recovery and promoting a slave to master.  You have to
>> transfer state between servers.  You can transfer it in band or out =
of
>> band.  If you transfer it out of band you need to invent / specify
>> yet-another-protocol to do it on top of specifying when records need =
to
>> be removed.
>=20
> That is not very convincing to me. disaster recovery scenarios seem to
> be solvable by proper admin and by the daemon properly writing state =
to
> disk which can be saved off-site. It also seems a rather rare =
occurrence.

So you write it to disk then transfer it off site which breaks atomicity
of the zone=E2=80=99s meta state or do it in band with TIMEOUT.

> If the primary does DNSSEC, you also have to transfer private keys and
> that isn't happening in-band either. So I'm not convinced by the
> promotion of secondary to master either.

You can pass the keys before you start to use them.  They are =
essentially
static information.

> It also seems these two use cases are mostly solved if you keep your
> dynamic update clients within their own zone, which I think is pretty
> normal for DHCP based nodes that can make up their own hostname anyway
> and shouldn't be able to muck with real static records or apex =
records.

Policy about who can update what is unrelated to making sure content =
gets
cleaned up.  There isn=E2=80=99t always a DHCP server to do the garbage =
collection.
This is especially true with IPv6 and SLAAC.

> Paul
>=20
>>> On 20 Feb 2019, at 9:26 am, Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I have read the document.
>>>=20
>>> I have a question about:
>>>=20
>>>  A zone administrator may
>>>  want to enforce a default lifetime for dynamic updates (such as the
>>>  DHCP lease lifetime) or the DNS Update may contain a lifetime using
>>>  an EDNS(0) Update Lease option [I-D.sekar-dns-ul].
>>>=20
>>> This seems a local policy and local implementation issue only.
>>>=20
>>> However, this
>>> lease lifetime is not communicated to secondary servers and will not
>>> endure through server software restarts.
>>>=20
>>> Why does the secondary server need to know the lease lifetime? Only =
the
>>> primary needs to know this because it will need to purge the records =
and
>>> update the appropriate DNSSEC entries, something the secondary =
cannot do
>>> anyway? In fact, Section 8 agrees with me:
>>>=20
>>>  A secondary server MUST NOT expire the records in a zone it =
maintains
>>>  covered by the TIMEOUT resource record and it MUST NOT expire the
>>>  TIMEOUT resource record itself when the last record it covers has
>>>  expired.  The secondary server MUST always wait for the records to =
be
>>>  removed or updated by the primary server.
>>>=20
>>> So why is the TIMEOUT record needed? If the secondary argument is
>>> gone, the only argument left from the Introduction is server =
software
>>> restart. Which seems to me to be an application issue and not a =
protocol
>>> issue?
>>>=20
>>> As others pointed out, introducing SHA3 into the DNS right now is =
not
>>> appropriate.
>>>=20
>>> I see a use for clients telling the dns update server what the =
maximum
>>> possibly lifetime can be, so it can go and perform a delete request =
on
>>> behalf of vanished clients. But again I don't see this as a protocol
>>> issue needing a TIMEOUT RRTYPE ?
>>>=20
>>> Did I miss anything?
>>>=20
>>> Paul
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> DNSOP mailing list
>>> DNSOP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Mark Andrews, ISC
>> 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
>> PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742              INTERNET: marka@isc.org
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop

--=20
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742              INTERNET: marka@isc.org


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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-extended-error-04.txt
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On 07. 02. 19 16:47, Petr Å paÄek wrote:
> --- New code points ---
> 
> I propose to add couple more codes:

Yet another code propodsl:
* answer with stale data

   The resolver was unable to resolve answer within its time limits and
   decided to answer with stale data instead of answering with an error.
   This is typically caused by problems on authoritative side, possibly
   as result of an DoS attack. Retrying is likely to cause load and not
   yield a fresh answer, RETRY=0.

Here is a problem that this code point is applicable to NOERROR as well
as NXDOMAIN answers so I'm not sure how to categorize it. This
reinforces my unanswered question why the draft proposes to copy RCODE
into EDE.

-- 
Petr Å paÄek  @  CZ.NIC


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Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 12:35:49 +0000
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Dick Franks <rwfranks@acm.org> wrote:
>
> Unsigned 32 bit RRSIG time is good for travel until 7th February 2106.

No, it lasts indefinitely. It covers +/- 68 years relative to current
POSIX time using serial number arithmetic.

Tony.
-- 
f.anthony.n.finch  <dot@dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
Shannon, Rockall: South 6 to gale 8. Rough or very rough, becoming very rough
or high. Occasional rain or drizzle. Good, occasionally poor.


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Dick,

> On 20. Feb 2019, at 13:35, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at> wrote:
> 
> Dick Franks <rwfranks@acm.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Unsigned 32 bit RRSIG time is good for travel until 7th February 2106.
> 
> No, it lasts indefinitely. It covers +/- 68 years relative to current
> POSIX time using serial number arithmetic.

you might want to give RFC 1982 a read... I got that wrong before, too ;-)

Tim
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On 20 Feb 2019, at 00:35, Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Feb 2019, Mark Andrews wrote:
>=20
>> Think disaster recovery and promoting a slave to master.  You have to
>> transfer state between servers.  You can transfer it in band or out =
of
>> band.  If you transfer it out of band you need to invent / specify
>> yet-another-protocol to do it on top of specifying when records need =
to
>> be removed.
>=20
> That is not very convincing to me. disaster recovery scenarios seem to
> be solvable by proper admin and by the daemon properly writing state =
to
> disk which can be saved off-site. It also seems a rather rare =
occurance.

I agree.

The crux of the use case seems to be that it is commonplace for names in =
the DNS to exist for short periods of time and that for some =
applications a name that overstays its welcome can cause an operational =
problem.

While I can understand the philosophical desire to complete the UPDATE =
specification so that it is possible to engineer around this scenario, I =
don't see the practical application. The existence of the requirement in =
the first place seems unproven (at least there are no obvious examples =
given); the scenario in which the purported operational problem arises =
seems likely to be rare; workarounds surely exist and, really, the =
damage in the event that the stars align and a temporary name does =
persist seems very low.

If the goal is to try this out and have no impact on existing =
implementations (e.g. there is some side code that is imagined that will =
poll a transferred zone for TIMEOUT records and do local UPDATEs in =
order to remove RRSets that should not be there) then all that is really =
needed here is a code point for the TIMEOUT RR. The existence of the =
draft is nice since documentation is good, but I think "experimental" =
would be a better target than "standards track". It's surely possible =
that this mechanism will solve some as-yet unnoticed, large-scale =
problem and will one day be considered essential functionality, but I =
don't think we're there today. There be camels.


Joe


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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Cc: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
To: Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
References: <155053239541.25848.12960190085730298684.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <969D8BA1-6ED3-47E8-AFFD-2BEE8EA3E66B@bangj.com> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902191219070.766@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <0DE33073-93B1-4CF5-B12D-B7266E21E8B2@timwattenberg.de> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902191715230.30381@bofh.nohats.ca> <1F461BFA-638A-4607-84BD-F8B8597A1114@isc.org> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902200028210.29865@bofh.nohats.ca> <646C86F6-C10D-43DF-ADE8-19222994E4D1@hopcount.ca>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
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On Feb 20, 2019, at 4:51 AM, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca> wrote:
> The crux of the use case seems to be that it is commonplace for names =
in the DNS to exist for short periods of time and that for some =
applications a name that overstays its welcome can cause an operational =
problem.
>=20
> While I can understand the philosophical desire to complete the UPDATE =
specification so that it is possible to engineer around this scenario, I =
don't see the practical application. The existence of the requirement in =
the first place seems unproven (at least there are no obvious examples =
given); the scenario in which the purported operational problem arises =
seems likely to be rare; workarounds surely exist and, really, the =
damage in the event that the stars align and a temporary name does =
persist seems very low.
>=20
> If the goal is to try this out and have no impact on existing =
implementations (e.g. there is some side code that is imagined that will =
poll a transferred zone for TIMEOUT records and do local UPDATEs in =
order to remove RRSets that should not be there) then all that is really =
needed here is a code point for the TIMEOUT RR. The existence of the =
draft is nice since documentation is good, but I think "experimental" =
would be a better target than "standards track". It's surely possible =
that this mechanism will solve some as-yet unnoticed, large-scale =
problem and will one day be considered essential functionality, but I =
don't think we're there today. There be camels.

The goal of this is to automate name publication for situations where =
this is desirable.   You=E2=80=99re probably not going to use this for =
your public servers.   See =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnssd-srp-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnssd-srp-00> (expired, but =
we=E2=80=99ll be submitting an update soon).

I say this not to specfically support this proposal, which I think has =
problems, but simply to point out that there is an itch here to scratch. =
  I don=E2=80=99t think this is something that we need in every =
different kind of DNS server, but something like this could definitely =
be useful in some operational situations.   Of course it can be done out =
of band, but there=E2=80=99s something to be said for keeping all the =
state in one place.   I don=E2=80=99t have enough operational experience =
with this yet to have formed a preference.


--Apple-Mail=_42A49C31-3476-4F52-92F1-30CC0FD92690
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Feb 20, 2019, at 4:51 AM, Joe Abley &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jabley@hopcount.ca" class=3D"">jabley@hopcount.ca</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">The crux =
of the use case seems to be that it is commonplace for names in the DNS =
to exist for short periods of time and that for some applications a name =
that overstays its welcome can cause an operational problem.<br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">While I can =
understand the philosophical desire to complete the UPDATE specification =
so that it is possible to engineer around this scenario, I don't see the =
practical application. The existence of the requirement in the first =
place seems unproven (at least there are no obvious examples given); the =
scenario in which the purported operational problem arises seems likely =
to be rare; workarounds surely exist and, really, the damage in the =
event that the stars align and a temporary name does persist seems very =
low.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">If the goal is to try this out and =
have no impact on existing implementations (e.g. there is some side code =
that is imagined that will poll a transferred zone for TIMEOUT records =
and do local UPDATEs in order to remove RRSets that should not be there) =
then all that is really needed here is a code point for the TIMEOUT RR. =
The existence of the draft is nice since documentation is good, but I =
think "experimental" would be a better target than "standards track". =
It's surely possible that this mechanism will solve some as-yet =
unnoticed, large-scale problem and will one day be considered essential =
functionality, but I don't think we're there today. There be camels.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">The goal of this is to automate name publication for =
situations where this is desirable. &nbsp; You=E2=80=99re probably not =
going to use this for your public servers. &nbsp; See&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnssd-srp-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnssd-srp-00</a>&nbsp;(e=
xpired, but we=E2=80=99ll be submitting an update soon).</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I say this not to =
specfically support this proposal, which I think has problems, but =
simply to point out that there is an itch here to scratch. &nbsp; I =
don=E2=80=99t think this is something that we need in every different =
kind of DNS server, but something like this could definitely be useful =
in some operational situations. &nbsp; Of course it can be done out of =
band, but there=E2=80=99s something to be said for keeping all the state =
in one place. &nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t have enough operational experience =
with this yet to have formed a preference.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_42A49C31-3476-4F52-92F1-30CC0FD92690--


From nobody Wed Feb 20 06:50:55 2019
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In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902201234280.19193@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk>
From: Dick Franks <rwfranks@acm.org>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 14:50:12 +0000
Message-ID: <CAKW6Ri49=cFCSccYdc+8XJNHYGnM+joowMRD4Oub84UqoVQSSg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
Cc: Tim Wattenberg <mail@timwattenberg.de>, dnsop WG <dnsop@ietf.org>,  Tom Pusateri <pusateri@bangj.com>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
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On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 12:36, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at> wrote:

> Dick Franks <rwfranks@acm.org> wrote:
> >
> > Unsigned 32 bit RRSIG time is good for travel until 7th February 2106.
>
> No, it lasts indefinitely. It covers +/- 68 years relative to current
> POSIX time using serial number arithmetic.
>

The value is  ( t - Jan1970 ) mod 2**32,  for any integer t,   which is
certainly
not relative to current time, always positive, and I agree lasts
indefinitely.
The point I was trying to make was that the wrapping occurs in 2106,
not 2038 as some have claimed.
RFC1982 serial number arithmetic is mandated for comparison of these values,
not for defining the values themselves.


[RFC4034] 3.1.5.  Signature Expiration and Inception Fields

   The Signature Expiration and Inception fields specify a validity
   period for the signature.  The RRSIG record MUST NOT be used for
   authentication prior to the inception date and MUST NOT be used for
   authentication after the expiration date.

   The Signature Expiration and Inception field values specify a date
   and time in the form of a 32-bit unsigned number of seconds elapsed
   since 1 January 1970 00:00:00 UTC, ignoring leap seconds, in network
   byte order.  The longest interval that can be expressed by this
   format without wrapping is approximately 136 years.  An RRSIG RR can
   have an Expiration field value that is numerically smaller than the
   Inception field value if the expiration field value is near the
   32-bit wrap-around point or if the signature is long lived.  Because
   of this, all comparisons involving these fields MUST use "Serial
   number arithmetic", as defined in [RFC1982].  As a direct
   consequence, the values contained in these fields cannot refer to
   dates more than 68 years in either the past or the future.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 12:36, Tony Finch =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dot@dotat.at">dot@dotat.at</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Dick Franks &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:rwfranks@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">rwfranks@acm.org</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Unsigned 32 bit RRSIG time is good for travel until 7th February 2106.=
<br>
<br>
No, it lasts indefinitely. It covers +/- 68 years relative to current<br>
POSIX time using serial number arithmetic.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><=
div>The value is=C2=A0 ( t - Jan1970 ) mod 2**32,=C2=A0 for any integer t,=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 which is certainly</div><div>not relative to current time, alw=
ays positive, and I agree lasts indefinitely.<br></div><div>The point I was=
 trying to make was that the wrapping occurs in 2106,</div><div>not 2038 as=
 some have claimed.</div><div>RFC1982 serial number arithmetic is mandated =
for comparison of these values,</div><div>not for defining the values thems=
elves.<br></div><div><pre><span class=3D"gmail-m_hdr"><br>[RFC4034]</span> =
<span class=3D"gmail-m_h">3.1.5.  Signature Expiration and Inception Fields=
</span>

   The Signature Expiration and Inception fields specify a validity
   period for the signature.  The RRSIG record MUST NOT be used for
   authentication prior to the inception date and MUST NOT be used for
   authentication after the expiration date.

   The Signature Expiration and Inception field values specify a date
   and time in the form of a 32-bit unsigned number of seconds elapsed
   since 1 January 1970 00:00:00 UTC, ignoring leap seconds, in network
   byte order.  The longest interval that can be expressed by this
   format without wrapping is approximately 136 years.  An RRSIG RR can
   have an Expiration field value that is numerically smaller than the
   Inception field value if the expiration field value is near the
   32-bit wrap-around point or if the signature is long lived.  Because
   of this, all comparisons involving these fields MUST use &quot;Serial
   number arithmetic&quot;, as defined in [RFC1982].  As a direct
   consequence, the values contained in these fields cannot refer to
   dates more than 68 years in either the past or the future.</pre></div><d=
iv><br></div></div></div>

--000000000000d51b8a0582547b38--


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To: dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Two Resurrected WG I-Ds: Don't Switch Resolvers & Auth DNS Mistakes
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From: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
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References: <155053239541.25848.12960190085730298684.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <969D8BA1-6ED3-47E8-AFFD-2BEE8EA3E66B@bangj.com> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902191219070.766@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <0DE33073-93B1-4CF5-B12D-B7266E21E8B2@timwattenberg.de> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902191715230.30381@bofh.nohats.ca> <1F461BFA-638A-4607-84BD-F8B8597A1114@isc.org> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902200028210.29865@bofh.nohats.ca> <646C86F6-C10D-43DF-ADE8-19222994E4D1@hopcount.ca>
To: Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/1yr0Zh78BqxTPktPHZDDCRTCpPE>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
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Joe, look at active directory. The names in the DNS are garbage cleaned by u=
ndocumented processes that prevent UPDATE being used to manage the =E2=80=9C=
static=E2=80=9D content.=20

You have registering AAAA and PTR records with SLAAC. You don=E2=80=99t want=
 stale records to continue to exist in the zones. You will be sent to the wr=
ong machine (AAAA) or the zone will become a garbage dump of stale records (=
PTR).   But until the support is there you can=E2=80=99t safely do this.=20

Today you can use SIG(0) to register your AAAA records and use TCP to authen=
ticate PTR  additions to the DNS zones. All that is missing is the automated=
 cleanup.  DNS servers are quite capable of doing that once specified how.  =
 DHCP servers mostly do this for IPv4 but even that is problematic.  Records=
 still get left behind because there was a communication failure at lease ex=
piry / release.=20

DNS-SD has the same issues. Garbage collection.=20

You also need it as standards track so people won=E2=80=99t think it is some=
thing that is going away and to encourage everyone who implements UPDATE to s=
upport it.  Clients and servers.=20
--=20
Mark Andrews

> On 20 Feb 2019, at 23:51, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca> wrote:
>=20
>> On 20 Feb 2019, at 00:35, Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> wrote:
>>=20
>>> On Wed, 20 Feb 2019, Mark Andrews wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Think disaster recovery and promoting a slave to master.  You have to
>>> transfer state between servers.  You can transfer it in band or out of
>>> band.  If you transfer it out of band you need to invent / specify
>>> yet-another-protocol to do it on top of specifying when records need to
>>> be removed.
>>=20
>> That is not very convincing to me. disaster recovery scenarios seem to
>> be solvable by proper admin and by the daemon properly writing state to
>> disk which can be saved off-site. It also seems a rather rare occurance.
>=20
> I agree.
>=20
> The crux of the use case seems to be that it is commonplace for names in t=
he DNS to exist for short periods of time and that for some applications a n=
ame that overstays its welcome can cause an operational problem.
>=20
> While I can understand the philosophical desire to complete the UPDATE spe=
cification so that it is possible to engineer around this scenario, I don't s=
ee the practical application. The existence of the requirement in the first p=
lace seems unproven (at least there are no obvious examples given); the scen=
ario in which the purported operational problem arises seems likely to be ra=
re; workarounds surely exist and, really, the damage in the event that the s=
tars align and a temporary name does persist seems very low.
>=20
> If the goal is to try this out and have no impact on existing implementati=
ons (e.g. there is some side code that is imagined that will poll a transfer=
red zone for TIMEOUT records and do local UPDATEs in order to remove RRSets t=
hat should not be there) then all that is really needed here is a code point=
 for the TIMEOUT RR. The existence of the draft is nice since documentation i=
s good, but I think "experimental" would be a better target than "standards t=
rack". It's surely possible that this mechanism will solve some as-yet unnot=
iced, large-scale problem and will one day be considered essential functiona=
lity, but I don't think we're there today. There be camels.
>=20
>=20
> Joe
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop


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From: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
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Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
>
> All that is missing is the automated cleanup.  DNS servers are quite
> capable of doing that once specified how.

Does it need to be per-record? Why not GC the whole RRset?

Tony.
-- 
f.anthony.n.finch  <dot@dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
Fair Isle: Southwesterly 5 or 6, occasionally 7 later in west. Moderate or
rough, occasionally very rough at first in west. Rain. Good, occasionally
moderate.


From nobody Wed Feb 20 11:32:53 2019
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From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Tony Finch wrote on 2019-02-20 11:30:
> Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
>>
>> All that is missing is the automated cleanup.  DNS servers are quite
>> capable of doing that once specified how.
> 
> Does it need to be per-record? Why not GC the whole RRset?

+1. this is what DEFUPD did.

(https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsind-defupd/)

-- 
P Vixie


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To: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
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> On 21 Feb 2019, at 6:30 am, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at> wrote:
>=20
> Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
>>=20
>> All that is missing is the automated cleanup.  DNS servers are quite
>> capable of doing that once specified how.
>=20
> Does it need to be per-record? Why not GC the whole RRset?

Because there are scenarios where you do want to GC as single
record from the RRset. AD has them with SRV.  Each server adds
its own SRV record to the RRset.  When a server goes away without
cleaning up you want the SRV to go but the RRset to remain.

A machine has permanent and time limited addresses.

I=E2=80=99m sure there will be other cases where you want selective =
deletion
from a RRset.

Mark

> Tony.
> --=20
> f.anthony.n.finch  <dot@dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
> Fair Isle: Southwesterly 5 or 6, occasionally 7 later in west. =
Moderate or
> rough, occasionally very rough at first in west. Rain. Good, =
occasionally
> moderate.

--=20
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742              INTERNET: marka@isc.org


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From: Dick Franks <rwfranks@acm.org>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 01:17:49 +0000
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On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 11:27, Petr =C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek <petr.spacek@nic.cz> wr=
ote:
8<

> Yet another code propodsl:
> * answer with stale data
>
>    The resolver was unable to resolve answer within its time limits and
>    decided to answer with stale data instead of answering with an error.
>    This is typically caused by problems on authoritative side, possibly
>    as result of an DoS attack. Retrying is likely to cause load and not
>    yield a fresh answer, RETRY=3D0.
>
> Here is a problem that this code point is applicable to NOERROR as well
> as NXDOMAIN answers so I'm not sure how to categorize it. This
> reinforces my unanswered question why the draft proposes to copy RCODE
> into EDE.
>

This seems to be a good argument in favour of a one-dimensional error table=
.

--Dick

--00000000000058770a05825d40b7
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_attr">On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 11:27, Petr =C5=A0pa=C4=8Dek &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:petr.spacek@nic.cz">petr.spacek@nic.cz</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">8&lt;<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex">
Yet another code propodsl:<br>
* answer with stale data<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The resolver was unable to resolve answer within its time limi=
ts and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0decided to answer with stale data instead of answering with an=
 error.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This is typically caused by problems on authoritative side, po=
ssibly<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0as result of an DoS attack. Retrying is likely to cause load a=
nd not<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0yield a fresh answer, RETRY=3D0.<br>
<br>
Here is a problem that this code point is applicable to NOERROR as well<br>
as NXDOMAIN answers so I&#39;m not sure how to categorize it. This<br>
reinforces my unanswered question why the draft proposes to copy RCODE<br>
into EDE.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This seems to be a good argum=
ent in favour of a one-dimensional error table.</div><div><br></div><div>--=
Dick<br></div></div></div>

--00000000000058770a05825d40b7--


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From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
To: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Hi all,

(dnsop copied because DNS64)

I'm working in a new version of this document.

Link to the document:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment/

It will be great if we can get some new inputs.

Thanks!

Regards,
Jordi
 
 



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Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
> > On 21 Feb 2019, at 6:30 am, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at> wrote:
> >
> > Does it need to be per-record? Why not GC the whole RRset?
>
> Because there are scenarios where you do want to GC as single
> record from the RRset. AD has them with SRV.  Each server adds
> its own SRV record to the RRset.

Oh I see, that makes sense. Things like this need explaining in the
document.

Why not simplify the RDATA format so there is just one item per record,
instead of containing a list of lists? Aren't the individual items going
to be added/removed independently of each other?

Tony.
-- 
f.anthony.n.finch  <dot@dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
Shannon, Rockall: Southerly or southeasterly 6 to gale 8, increasing severe
gale 9 at times, perhaps storm 10 later in northwest Rockall. Very rough or
high. Rain. Moderate or poor.


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In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902211215480.19193@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk>
From: Dick Franks <rwfranks@acm.org>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:11:04 +0000
Message-ID: <CAKW6Ri7u5uCwcXgDrovgpEnhZCpkGGDMrxLHxbFVNvnveUPwWA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
Cc: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
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On Thu, 21 Feb 2019 at 12:25, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at> wrote:

> Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
> > > On 21 Feb 2019, at 6:30 am, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at> wrote:
> > >
> > > Does it need to be per-record? Why not GC the whole RRset?
> >
> > Because there are scenarios where you do want to GC as single
> > record from the RRset. AD has them with SRV.  Each server adds
> > its own SRV record to the RRset.
>
> Oh I see, that makes sense. Things like this need explaining in the
> document.
>
> Why not simplify the RDATA format so there is just one item per record,
> instead of containing a list of lists? Aren't the individual items going
> to be added/removed independently of each other?
>

Good idea.

A more radical approach would be to have just one hash per item per record.
This has the attraction of allowing a truncated hash to be used, without
the need for length fields.

--Dick

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, 21 Feb 2019 at 12:25, Tony Finch =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dot@dotat.at">dot@dotat.at</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Mark Andrews &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:marka@isc.org" target=3D"_blank">marka@isc.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; On 21 Feb 2019, at 6:30 am, Tony Finch &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dot@=
dotat.at" target=3D"_blank">dot@dotat.at</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Does it need to be per-record? Why not GC the whole RRset?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Because there are scenarios where you do want to GC as single<br>
&gt; record from the RRset. AD has them with SRV.=C2=A0 Each server adds<br=
>
&gt; its own SRV record to the RRset.<br>
<br>
Oh I see, that makes sense. Things like this need explaining in the<br>
document.<br>
<br>
Why not simplify the RDATA format so there is just one item per record,<br>
instead of containing a list of lists? Aren&#39;t the individual items goin=
g<br>
to be added/removed independently of each other?<br></blockquote><div><br><=
/div><div>Good idea.</div><div><br></div><div>A more radical approach would=
 be to have just one hash per item per record.</div><div>This has the attra=
ction of allowing a truncated hash to be used, without the need for length =
fields.</div><div><br></div><div>--Dick</div><div><br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
</blockquote></div></div>

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To: Dick Franks <rwfranks@acm.org>
References: <155053239541.25848.12960190085730298684.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <969D8BA1-6ED3-47E8-AFFD-2BEE8EA3E66B@bangj.com> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902191219070.766@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <0DE33073-93B1-4CF5-B12D-B7266E21E8B2@timwattenberg.de> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902191715230.30381@bofh.nohats.ca> <1F461BFA-638A-4607-84BD-F8B8597A1114@isc.org> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902200028210.29865@bofh.nohats.ca> <646C86F6-C10D-43DF-ADE8-19222994E4D1@hopcount.ca> <E41DDEED-DF50-481F-9378-D721C3612643@isc.org> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902201928250.19193@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <9330E97B-76BF-4C6F-8F6F-01349A3E7427@isc.org> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902211215480.19193@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <CAKW6Ri7u5uCwcXgDrovgpEnhZCpkGGDMrxLHxbFVNvnveUPwWA@mail.gmail.com>
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On Feb 21, 2019, at 6:11 AM, Dick Franks <rwfranks@acm.org> wrote:
> A more radical approach would be to have just one hash per item per =
record.

One way to make this document less complex yet just as useful would be =
to simply have a record that contains what is to be deleted, rather than =
a hash of what is to be deleted.   It=E2=80=99s not at all clear to me =
that there=E2=80=99s value in using the hash=E2=80=94to me it just seems =
to create uncertainty.


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Feb 21, 2019, at 6:11 AM, Dick Franks &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rwfranks@acm.org" class=3D"">rwfranks@acm.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">A =
more radical approach would be to have just one hash per item per =
record.</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">One =
way to make this document less complex yet just as useful would be to =
simply have a record that contains what is to be deleted, rather than a =
hash of what is to be deleted. &nbsp; It=E2=80=99s not at all clear to =
me that there=E2=80=99s value in using the hash=E2=80=94to me it just =
seems to create uncertainty.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Two Resurrected WG I-Ds: Don't Switch Resolvers & Auth DNS Mistakes
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Followup to DNSOP on a conversation the Chairs had.

I remembered Jason's earlier drafts, and him presenting, but not the
approvals, but senility is always a concern.   Luckily I'm a seem to
be a hoarder or sorts.   Here is Jason's original presentation from IETF91
(Honolulu for those keeping score at home), but no
official adoption.

Tim

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 9:54 AM Livingood, Jason <
Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote:

> A few years ago I had somehow succeeded in getting WG adoption of 2
> documents that addressed some pet peeves I had as a recursive DNS operato=
r.
> Things got busy and my attention wandered elsewhere and I did not advance
> them. Since these issues continue to haunt RDNS operators, I have decided
> to update these documents. The first says that DNSSEC errors (and other
> auth RR issues) are the operational responsibility of and must be solved =
by
> auth DNS admins. The second says that people should not change to
> non-validating resolvers when a DNSSEC failure occurs. Both are likely
> obvious to us in the WG, but no so much to anyone else. ;-)
>
>
>
> Just a week or so ago, Windows Update started to fail seemingly due to a
> bad delegation to a CDN from Microsoft and the TTL on the bad RR was
> long-ish (details are scant). So reporters and even Microsoft support
> started suggesting that people change their DNS resolvers. Only later did
> people figure out the problem was on Microsoft=E2=80=99s auth DNS end (se=
e
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-update-problems-fixed-now-but-heres=
-what-went-wrong-says-microsoft/
> and 1st story at
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-updates-are-broken-again-but-thi=
s-time-its-not-microsofts-fault/).
> And we also see the issue of =E2=80=9CDNSSEC validation failed, so switch=
 to a
> non-validator=E2=80=9D on a regular basis.
>
>
>
> So I just submitted these again / updated them. I have asked the WG chair=
s
> to let me know how they=E2=80=99d like me to proceed with them, but haven=
=E2=80=99t yet
> heard back. In the meantime, I=E2=80=99m happy to continue to once again =
take input
> and comment from the WG.
>
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-livingood-dnsop-dont-switch-resolv=
ers/
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-livingood-dnsop-auth-dnssec-mistak=
es/
>
>
>
> Thanks!
> Jason
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Followup to DNSOP on a conversation the Chairs had.=C2=A0<=
div><br></div><div>I remembered Jason&#39;s earlier drafts, and him present=
ing, but not the approvals, but senility is always a concern. =C2=A0 Luckil=
y I&#39;m a seem to</div><div>be a hoarder or sorts. =C2=A0 Here is Jason&#=
39;s original presentation from IETF91 (Honolulu for those keeping score at=
 home), but no=C2=A0</div><div>official adoption.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div=
><div>Tim</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 9:54 AM Livingood, Jason &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Jason_Livingood@comcast.com">Jason_Livingood@comcast.com</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:=
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-3759961793158910873WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14pt">A few years ago I had=
 somehow succeeded in getting WG adoption of 2 documents that addressed som=
e pet peeves I had as a recursive DNS operator. Things got busy and my atte=
ntion wandered elsewhere and I did
 not advance them. Since these issues continue to haunt RDNS operators, I h=
ave decided to update these documents. The first says that DNSSEC errors (a=
nd other auth RR issues) are the operational responsibility of and must be =
solved by auth DNS admins. The second
 says that people should not change to non-validating resolvers when a DNSS=
EC failure occurs. Both are likely obvious to us in the WG, but no so much =
to anyone else. ;-)</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14pt">Just a week or so ago=
, Windows Update started to fail seemingly due to a bad delegation to a CDN=
 from Microsoft and the TTL on the bad RR was long-ish (details are scant).=
 So reporters and even Microsoft support
 started suggesting that people change their DNS resolvers. Only later did =
people figure out the problem was on Microsoft=E2=80=99s auth DNS end (see
</span><a href=3D"https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-update-problems-fix=
ed-now-but-heres-what-went-wrong-says-microsoft/" target=3D"_blank"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:14pt">https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-update-proble=
ms-fixed-now-but-heres-what-went-wrong-says-microsoft/</span></a><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:14pt">
 and 1<sup>st</sup> story at </span><a href=3D"https://www.zdnet.com/articl=
e/windows-10-updates-are-broken-again-but-this-time-its-not-microsofts-faul=
t/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:14pt">https://www.zdnet.com/=
article/windows-10-updates-are-broken-again-but-this-time-its-not-microsoft=
s-fault/</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:14pt">).
 And we also see the issue of =E2=80=9CDNSSEC validation failed, so switch =
to a non-validator=E2=80=9D on a regular basis.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14pt">So I just submitted t=
hese again / updated them. I have asked the WG chairs to let me know how th=
ey=E2=80=99d like me to proceed with them, but haven=E2=80=99t yet heard ba=
ck. In the meantime, I=E2=80=99m happy to continue to once
 again take input and comment from the WG.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li=
vingood-dnsop-dont-switch-resolvers/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font=
-size:14pt">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-livingood-dnsop-dont-swi=
tch-resolvers/</span></a></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li=
vingood-dnsop-auth-dnssec-mistakes/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-=
size:14pt">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-livingood-dnsop-auth-dnss=
ec-mistakes/</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:14pt">
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14pt">Thanks!<br>
Jason</span></p>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href=3D"mailto:DNSOP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">DNSOP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
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Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 06:05:01 +1100
Cc: Dick Franks <rwfranks@acm.org>, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
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References: <155053239541.25848.12960190085730298684.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <969D8BA1-6ED3-47E8-AFFD-2BEE8EA3E66B@bangj.com> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902191219070.766@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <0DE33073-93B1-4CF5-B12D-B7266E21E8B2@timwattenberg.de> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902191715230.30381@bofh.nohats.ca> <1F461BFA-638A-4607-84BD-F8B8597A1114@isc.org> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902200028210.29865@bofh.nohats.ca> <646C86F6-C10D-43DF-ADE8-19222994E4D1@hopcount.ca> <E41DDEED-DF50-481F-9378-D721C3612643@isc.org> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902201928250.19193@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <9330E97B-76BF-4C6F-8F6F-01349A3E7427@isc.org> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902211215480.19193@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <CAKW6Ri7u5uCwcXgDrovgpEnhZCpkGGDMrxLHxbFVNvnveUPwWA@mail.gmail.com> <382BAB3C-C127-46E1-B931-4717A33BD75A@fugue.com>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/jC4gvRywLLkT_9QCnGgnO4xMF1Y>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
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Hashes save space once the rdata is bigger than the hash.
--=20
Mark Andrews

> On 22 Feb 2019, at 02:12, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
>=20
>> On Feb 21, 2019, at 6:11 AM, Dick Franks <rwfranks@acm.org> wrote:
>> A more radical approach would be to have just one hash per item per recor=
d.
>=20
> One way to make this document less complex yet just as useful would be to s=
imply have a record that contains what is to be deleted, rather than a hash o=
f what is to be deleted.   It=E2=80=99s not at all clear to me that there=E2=
=80=99s value in using the hash=E2=80=94to me it just seems to create uncert=
ainty.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Hashes save space once the rdata is bigger t=
han the hash.<div><div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature" dir=3D"ltr">--&nbsp;<d=
iv>Mark Andrews</div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On 22 Feb 2019, at 02:12, Te=
d Lemon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com">mellon@fugue.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><meta http-equiv=
=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">On Feb 21, 2019, at=
 6:11 AM, Dick Franks &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwfranks@acm.org" class=3D"">rwf=
ranks@acm.org</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div c=
lass=3D""><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; f=
ont-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: n=
ormal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tra=
nsform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-wi=
dth: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">A more radical approach would b=
e to have just one hash per item per record.</div></div></blockquote></div><=
br class=3D""><div class=3D"">One way to make this document less complex yet=
 just as useful would be to simply have a record that contains what is to be=
 deleted, rather than a hash of what is to be deleted. &nbsp; It=E2=80=99s n=
ot at all clear to me that there=E2=80=99s value in using the hash=E2=80=94t=
o me it just seems to create uncertainty.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D"=
"></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span>=
_______________________________________________</span><br><span>DNSOP mailin=
g list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:DNSOP@ietf.org">DNSOP@ietf.org</a><=
/span><br><span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop">http=
s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</a></span><br></div></blockquote></d=
iv></div></body></html>=

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On Feb 21, 2019, at 11:05 AM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
> Hashes save space once the rdata is bigger than the hash.

Agreed, but why do we need to save space?  It would be possible to have =
the data structure that stores the delete RR point to the RR that=E2=80=99=
s to be deleted, so if on-disk or in-memory efficiency is really =
important, this would address that.   In practice, though, this option =
isn=E2=80=99t likely to be in use on servers, like large ISP caches, =
where space is at a premium.   So this seems like a false economy.


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From: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= <jinmei@wide.ad.jp>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 11:21:50 -0800
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--000000000000938a7805826c6330
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

At Wed, 20 Feb 2019 07:51:51 -0500,
Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca> wrote:

> The crux of the use case seems to be that it is commonplace for names in
the DNS to exist for short periods of time and that for some applications a
name that overstays its welcome can cause an operational problem.
>
> While I can understand the philosophical desire to complete the UPDATE
specification so that it is possible to engineer around this scenario, I
don't see the practical application.

I happen to know there's a practical application related to this
proposal.  As Mark says not all DHCP servers behave politely; there
are servers that just add RRs via DDNS and forget them.  We could say
that it's a problem of poorly implemented DDNS clients, not something
that should be solved in the DNS protocol.  I wouldn't necessarily be
opposed to that view.  In fact, given the higher bar with the "camel"
test, I'm not yet really convinced about the need for a protocol-based
solution to this problem either.  But at least this is related to a
practical problem, not just a philosophical one.

--
JINMEI, Tatuya

--000000000000938a7805826c6330
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">At Wed, 20 Feb 2019 07:51:51 -0500,<br>Jo=
e Abley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jabley@hopcount.ca">jabley@hopcount.ca</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br><br>&gt; The crux of the use case seems to be that it is common=
place for names in the DNS to exist for short periods of time and that for =
some applications a name that overstays its welcome can cause an operationa=
l problem.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; While I can understand the philosophical desire=
 to complete the UPDATE specification so that it is possible to engineer ar=
ound this scenario, I don&#39;t see the practical application.<br><br>I hap=
pen to know there&#39;s a practical application related to this<br>proposal=
.=C2=A0 As Mark says not all DHCP servers behave politely; there<br>are ser=
vers that just add RRs via DDNS and forget them.=C2=A0 We could say<br>that=
 it&#39;s a problem of poorly implemented DDNS clients, not something<br>th=
at should be solved in the DNS protocol.=C2=A0 I wouldn&#39;t necessarily b=
e<br>opposed to that view.=C2=A0 In fact, given the higher bar with the &qu=
ot;camel&quot;<br>test, I&#39;m not yet really convinced about the need for=
 a protocol-based<br>solution to this problem either.=C2=A0 But at least th=
is is related to a<br>practical problem, not just a philosophical one.<br><=
br>--<br>JINMEI, Tatuya<br></div></div>

--000000000000938a7805826c6330--


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To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
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Ted. It has to work post zone transfer.

Mark

--=20
Mark Andrews

> On 22 Feb 2019, at 06:11, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
>=20
>> On Feb 21, 2019, at 11:05 AM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
>> Hashes save space once the rdata is bigger than the hash.
>=20
> Agreed, but why do we need to save space?  It would be possible to have th=
e data structure that stores the delete RR point to the RR that=E2=80=99s to=
 be deleted, so if on-disk or in-memory efficiency is really important, this=
 would address that.   In practice, though, this option isn=E2=80=99t likely=
 to be in use on servers, like large ISP caches, where space is at a premium=
.   So this seems like a false economy.
>=20


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Machines die. Machines are unplugged.  Server are unreachable at critical ti=
mes. Externally driven cleanup can never be reliable.=20

--=20
Mark Andrews

> On 22 Feb 2019, at 06:21, =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 <jinmei@wid=
e.ad.jp> wrote:
>=20
> At Wed, 20 Feb 2019 07:51:51 -0500,
> Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca> wrote:
>=20
> > The crux of the use case seems to be that it is commonplace for names in=
 the DNS to exist for short periods of time and that for some applications a=
 name that overstays its welcome can cause an operational problem.
> >=20
> > While I can understand the philosophical desire to complete the UPDATE s=
pecification so that it is possible to engineer around this scenario, I don'=
t see the practical application.
>=20
> I happen to know there's a practical application related to this
> proposal..  As Mark says not all DHCP servers behave politely; there
> are servers that just add RRs via DDNS and forget them.  We could say
> that it's a problem of poorly implemented DDNS clients, not something
> that should be solved in the DNS protocol.  I wouldn't necessarily be
> opposed to that view.  In fact, given the higher bar with the "camel"
> test, I'm not yet really convinced about the need for a protocol-based
> solution to this problem either.  But at least this is related to a
> practical problem, not just a philosophical one.
>=20
> --
> JINMEI, Tatuya
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop

--Apple-Mail-B948910D-045B-4365-8358-F9F74A6B0E1A
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Machines die. Machines are unplugged. &nbsp=
;Server are unreachable at critical times. Externally driven cleanup can nev=
er be reliable.&nbsp;<br><br><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature" dir=3D"ltr">--&n=
bsp;<div>Mark Andrews</div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On 22 Feb 2019, at 06:=
21, =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jinmei@wide.a=
d.jp">jinmei@wide.ad.jp</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">At Wed, 20 Feb 2019 07:=
51:51 -0500,<br>Joe Abley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jabley@hopcount.ca">jabley@h=
opcount.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>&gt; The crux of the use case seems to be t=
hat it is commonplace for names in the DNS to exist for short periods of tim=
e and that for some applications a name that overstays its welcome can cause=
 an operational problem.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; While I can understand the philoso=
phical desire to complete the UPDATE specification so that it is possible to=
 engineer around this scenario, I don't see the practical application.<br><b=
r>I happen to know there's a practical application related to this<br>propos=
al..&nbsp; As Mark says not all DHCP servers behave politely; there<br>are s=
ervers that just add RRs via DDNS and forget them.&nbsp; We could say<br>tha=
t it's a problem of poorly implemented DDNS clients, not something<br>that s=
hould be solved in the DNS protocol.&nbsp; I wouldn't necessarily be<br>oppo=
sed to that view.&nbsp; In fact, given the higher bar with the "camel"<br>te=
st, I'm not yet really convinced about the need for a protocol-based<br>solu=
tion to this problem either.&nbsp; But at least this is related to a<br>prac=
tical problem, not just a philosophical one.<br><br>--<br>JINMEI, Tatuya<br>=
</div></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span>________=
_______________________________________</span><br><span>DNSOP mailing list</=
span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:DNSOP@ietf.org">DNSOP@ietf.org</a></span><b=
r><span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop">https://www.=
ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></ht=
ml>=

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From nobody Thu Feb 21 12:05:44 2019
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To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Cc: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>, Dick Franks <rwfranks@acm.org>
References: <155053239541.25848.12960190085730298684.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <969D8BA1-6ED3-47E8-AFFD-2BEE8EA3E66B@bangj.com> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902191219070.766@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <0DE33073-93B1-4CF5-B12D-B7266E21E8B2@timwattenberg.de> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902191715230.30381@bofh.nohats.ca> <1F461BFA-638A-4607-84BD-F8B8597A1114@isc.org> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902200028210.29865@bofh.nohats.ca> <646C86F6-C10D-43DF-ADE8-19222994E4D1@hopcount.ca> <E41DDEED-DF50-481F-9378-D721C3612643@isc.org> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902201928250.19193@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <9330E97B-76BF-4C6F-8F6F-01349A3E7427@isc.org> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902211215480.19193@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <CAKW6Ri7u5uCwcXgDrovgpEnhZCpkGGDMrxLHxbFVNvnveUPwWA@mail.gmail.com> <382BAB3C-C127-46E1-B931-4717A33BD75A@fugue.com> <4BF142EA-B2FB-4B00-9940-8A70FFEE5F6C@isc.org> <34BC472C-EF14-4872-BAC6-945AC18A7767@fugue.com>
From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Ted Lemon wrote on 2019-02-21 11:11:
> On Feb 21, 2019, at 11:05 AM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
>> Hashes save space once the rdata is bigger than the hash.
> 
> Agreed, but why do we need to save space?  It would be possible to
> have the data structure that stores the delete RR point to the RR
> thatâ€™s to be deleted, so if on-disk or in-memory efficiency is really
> important, this would address that.   In practice, though, this
> option isnâ€™t likely to be in use on servers, like large ISP caches,
> where space is at a premium.   So this seems like a false economy.

+1. again, this is how DEFUPD worked in 1996, and for this reason.

-- 
P Vixie


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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Cc: Dick Franks <rwfranks@acm.org>, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
To: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
References: <155053239541.25848.12960190085730298684.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <969D8BA1-6ED3-47E8-AFFD-2BEE8EA3E66B@bangj.com> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902191219070.766@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <0DE33073-93B1-4CF5-B12D-B7266E21E8B2@timwattenberg.de> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902191715230.30381@bofh.nohats.ca> <1F461BFA-638A-4607-84BD-F8B8597A1114@isc.org> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902200028210.29865@bofh.nohats.ca> <646C86F6-C10D-43DF-ADE8-19222994E4D1@hopcount.ca> <E41DDEED-DF50-481F-9378-D721C3612643@isc.org> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902201928250.19193@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <9330E97B-76BF-4C6F-8F6F-01349A3E7427@isc.org> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902211215480.19193@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <CAKW6Ri7u5uCwcXgDrovgpEnhZCpkGGDMrxLHxbFVNvnveUPwWA@mail.gmail.com> <382BAB3C-C127-46E1-B931-4717A33BD75A@fugue.com> <4BF142EA-B2FB-4B00-9940-8A70FFEE5F6C@isc.org> <34BC472C-EF14-4872-BAC6-945AC18A7767@fugue.com> <5B21B95D-55D6-4916-8D1B-C921AB9712AA@isc.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
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On Feb 21, 2019, at 11:24 AM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
> Ted. It has to work post zone transfer.

That=E2=80=99s not a problem, since the representation would be more =
compact, but would not be lossy: the interchange through the zone =
transfer would be the same regardless of how the data is stored.


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Feb 21, 2019, at 11:24 AM, Mark Andrews &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:marka@isc.org" class=3D"">marka@isc.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Ted. It has =
to work post zone transfer.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">That=E2=80=99s not a problem, since the =
representation would be more compact, but would not be lossy: the =
interchange through the zone transfer would be the same regardless of =
how the data is stored.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
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> On 22 Feb 2019, at 8:02 am, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
>=20
> On Feb 21, 2019, at 11:24 AM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
>> Ted. It has to work post zone transfer.
>=20
> That=E2=80=99s not a problem, since the representation would be more =
compact, but would not be lossy: the interchange through the zone =
transfer would be the same regardless of how the data is stored.

Implementation details are beyond the scope of RFCs.

Also you mentioned caches which basically will never see these records =
unless they are queried for.

Yes, there is a minuscule probability of a hash collision.  The =
alternative is to define a type for rdlen + rdata in canonical DNSSEC =
form. The primary server can use/replace a hash when the rdata + length =
is longer than the hash, checking for collisions first.  If such a type =
is defined I would give it the value 1 and make the first actual hash 2.

Additionally in section 4.5 Cryptographic Hashes

"Any names contained in a resource record MUST be hashed in an =
uncompressed form."

needs to be replaced with

"The record MUST be in canonical DNSSEC form ([RFC4034] Section 6)."

The latter works with primary servers that don=E2=80=99t preserve case =
when transferring zones.
--=20
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742              INTERNET: marka@isc.org


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From: Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
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On 21 Feb 2019, at 14:34, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:

> Machines die. Machines are unplugged.  Server are unreachable at =
critical times. Externally driven cleanup can never be reliable.=20

I'm not disputing any of that. I guess my first question was first =
whether cleanup is necessary, and second (assuming it is) whether =
cleanup can't just be handled as an implementation detail as opposed to =
a protocol extension.

If the master server that receive UPDATEs matching particular names =
could be configured to remove them after a suitable interval, wouldn't =
that do the trick? Slave servers would get new copies of the zones =
concerned following the updates in the normal manner. Zone propagation =
is pretty swift with NOTIFY. The master could apply policy based on =
criteria like owner name pattern matching or source of the update. =
Garbage collection might not happen with the kind of split-second =
accuracy that I sense this mechanism's proponents are suggesting, but =
does it need to? Don't we believe that applications that expect more =
than loose coherence from the DNS are broken?

I hear and acknowledge there is a desire for this kind functionality =
(i.e. I believe you that it's necessary) but I'm still not clear on what =
need there is for interoperability (and hence standardisation). Every =
DNS implementation contains their own special features that are not =
standardised and that don't need to be. Couldn't this be another one?

I remain open to the idea that I am just missing the point because I =
don't spend enough time in enterprise or campus networks. I think I'm =
possibly not the only one in that boat, though, and I don't think it's =
unreasonable for the draft to explore its applicability and explain =
clearly why standardisation or in-zone signalling (hence RRs) is =
necessary as a prerequisite to standardisation. As I mentioned before, =
the bar for experimental is surely much lower, and the bar for simple =
codepoint assignment lower still.


Joe=


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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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To: Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
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On Feb 21, 2019, at 2:52 PM, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca> wrote:
> The master could apply policy based on criteria like owner name =
pattern matching or source of the update. Garbage collection might not =
happen with the kind of split-second accuracy that I sense this =
mechanism's proponents are suggesting, but does it need to? Don't we =
believe that applications that expect more than loose coherence from the =
DNS are broken?

The impression that you are working from here seems to be that what is =
being designed is a hacky kludge that would go well with heuristics like =
this.   But what is actually being worked on here is a system that is =
not a hacky kludge, and that does not have leaks, and does not rely on =
clever heuristics to approximate good behavior.   Please read the =
service registration protocol document I mentioned in a previous message =
(draft-ietf-dnssd-srp).

Granted, I am not convinced that the document we are discussing is the =
right solution to the problem, but it=E2=80=99s an actual solution to =
the problem, not a hacky kludge, and that=E2=80=99s definitely a good =
thing.


--Apple-Mail=_74B27F5D-4BC5-4AE9-A373-70F0C38114C1
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Feb 21, 2019, at 2:52 PM, Joe Abley &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jabley@hopcount.ca" class=3D"">jabley@hopcount.ca</a>&gt; =
wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">The master =
could apply policy based on criteria like owner name pattern matching or =
source of the update. Garbage collection might not happen with the kind =
of split-second accuracy that I sense this mechanism's proponents are =
suggesting, but does it need to? Don't we believe that applications that =
expect more than loose coherence from the DNS are =
broken?</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">The =
impression that you are working from here seems to be that what is being =
designed is a hacky kludge that would go well with heuristics like this. =
&nbsp; But what is actually being worked on here is a system that is not =
a hacky kludge, and that does not have leaks, and does not rely on =
clever heuristics to approximate good behavior. &nbsp; Please read the =
service registration protocol document I mentioned in a previous message =
(draft-ietf-dnssd-srp).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Granted, I am not convinced that the document we are =
discussing is the right solution to the problem, but it=E2=80=99s an =
actual solution to the problem, not a hacky kludge, and that=E2=80=99s =
definitely a good thing.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
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Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 10:22:32 +1100
Cc: =?utf-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= <jinmei@wide.ad.jp>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>,  Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
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References: <155053239541.25848.12960190085730298684.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <969D8BA1-6ED3-47E8-AFFD-2BEE8EA3E66B@bangj.com> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902191219070.766@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <0DE33073-93B1-4CF5-B12D-B7266E21E8B2@timwattenberg.de> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902191715230.30381@bofh.nohats.ca> <1F461BFA-638A-4607-84BD-F8B8597A1114@isc.org> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902200028210.29865@bofh.nohats.ca> <646C86F6-C10D-43DF-ADE8-19222994E4D1@hopcount.ca> <CAJE_bqd3cAqtv_FkvhuCC6jubzZLx9v5ud2WzrL9bQE+8tLB8w@mail.gmail.com> <FC8037A8-37E2-4457-A410-6CECBB709D49@isc.org> <7B435A7E-0418-4451-AC12-6ED21F8FCCD2@hopcount.ca>
To: Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
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> On 22 Feb 2019, at 9:52 am, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca> wrote:
>=20
> On 21 Feb 2019, at 14:34, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
>=20
>> Machines die. Machines are unplugged.  Server are unreachable at =
critical times. Externally driven cleanup can never be reliable.=20
>=20
> I'm not disputing any of that. I guess my first question was first =
whether cleanup is necessary, and second (assuming it is) whether =
cleanup can't just be handled as an implementation detail as opposed to =
a protocol extension.
>=20
> If the master server that receive UPDATEs matching particular names =
could be configured to remove them after a suitable interval, wouldn't =
that do the trick?

No.  How do you make =E2=80=9Cpermanent=E2=80=9D changes to the zone =
using UPDATE?

> Slave servers would get new copies of the zones concerned following =
the updates in the normal manner. Zone propagation is pretty swift with =
NOTIFY. The master could apply policy based on criteria like owner name =
pattern matching or source of the update. Garbage collection might not =
happen with the kind of split-second accuracy that I sense this =
mechanism's proponents are suggesting, but does it need to? Don't we =
believe that applications that expect more than loose coherence from the =
DNS are broken?

Nothing in this draft changes loose coherence.  Everything is done by =
the master.  The slave has the data so it has the state to become the =
master when the machine that was the master dies.

> I hear and acknowledge there is a desire for this kind functionality =
(i.e. I believe you that it's necessary) but I'm still not clear on what =
need there is for interoperability (and hence standardisation). Every =
DNS implementation contains their own special features that are not =
standardised and that don't need to be. Couldn't this be another one?

No.  There are plenty of our customers that want features to work cross =
platform.  They also want to be able to switch to a different code base =
when there is a security issue in another one.  They also want things to =
work as well as possible for disaster recovery.  Having the GC =
information is a vendor neutral form achieves these objectives.

There are plenty of customers where all the slaves are transferring data =
from two masters all the time.  Those masters are from different vendors =
with transfers flowing from which ever is currently configured as the =
ultimate master between them.  The may also be configured to transfer =
from all of the slaves as well.  If current master dies / is taken out =
of service the backup master will get the newest copy of the zone that =
has made it to any of the other servers within minutes.  It can then be =
reconfigured as the active master and continue straight away.  Throwing =
proprietary GC into this does not work.

> I remain open to the idea that I am just missing the point because I =
don't spend enough time in enterprise or campus networks. I think I'm =
possibly not the only one in that boat, though, and I don't think it's =
unreasonable for the draft to explore its applicability and explain =
clearly why standardisation or in-zone signalling (hence RRs) is =
necessary as a prerequisite to standardisation. As I mentioned before, =
the bar for experimental is surely much lower, and the bar for simple =
codepoint assignment lower still.

What are the terms of the experiment if you want experimental?  What are =
you wanting to discover?  That the protocol works?

> Joe

--=20
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742              INTERNET: marka@isc.org


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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Cc: Dick Franks <rwfranks@acm.org>, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
To: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
References: <155053239541.25848.12960190085730298684.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <969D8BA1-6ED3-47E8-AFFD-2BEE8EA3E66B@bangj.com> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902191219070.766@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <0DE33073-93B1-4CF5-B12D-B7266E21E8B2@timwattenberg.de> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902191715230.30381@bofh.nohats.ca> <1F461BFA-638A-4607-84BD-F8B8597A1114@isc.org> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902200028210.29865@bofh.nohats.ca> <646C86F6-C10D-43DF-ADE8-19222994E4D1@hopcount.ca> <E41DDEED-DF50-481F-9378-D721C3612643@isc.org> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902201928250.19193@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <9330E97B-76BF-4C6F-8F6F-01349A3E7427@isc.org> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902211215480.19193@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <CAKW6Ri7u5uCwcXgDrovgpEnhZCpkGGDMrxLHxbFVNvnveUPwWA@mail.gmail.com> <382BAB3C-C127-46E1-B931-4717A33BD75A@fugue.com> <4BF142EA-B2FB-4B00-9940-8A70FFEE5F6C@isc.org> <34BC472C-EF14-4872-BAC6-945AC18A7767@fugue.com> <5B21B95D-55D6-4916-8D1B-C921AB9712AA@isc.org> <75CA917D-1A6C-4717-934C-965570DC51C0@fugue.com> <597BB37C-3111-437D-A646-0F6D7A22B86A@isc.org>
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On Feb 21, 2019, at 2:24 PM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
> Implementation details are beyond the scope of RFCs.

Indeed they are.  My point is that if you want to be careful of memory =
usage or disk usage, you can be=E2=80=94there is no need to use a hash.  =
 In essence, requiring us to use a hash is specifying an implementation =
detail that needn=E2=80=99t be specified: you can in fact implement this =
using a hash, although I wouldn=E2=80=99t.   It would be nice if I were =
not required to implement it that way, since I think that=E2=80=99s not =
actually going to work reliably.

> Also you mentioned caches which basically will never see these records =
unless they are queried for.


I mentioned caches because they are by far the biggest consumers of =
resources=E2=80=94authoritative name servers have much smaller memory =
footprints.   I assume the reason you think using hashes is a good idea =
and not a premature optimization is because you=E2=80=99ve done a lot of =
work with caching name servers, and are seeing this discussion through =
that lens.   That=E2=80=99s the wrong lens to be seeing it through.   =
This is only relevant for authoritative name servers, and in that case, =
storing the whole RR-to-be-deleted is fine.


--Apple-Mail=_3F792578-A9A9-4BBA-93A1-A7BDCE8706E1
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Feb 21, 2019, at 2:24 PM, Mark Andrews &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:marka@isc.org" class=3D"">marka@isc.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Implementation =
details are beyond the scope of RFCs.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Indeed they are. &nbsp;My point is that if =
you want to be careful of memory usage or disk usage, you can be=E2=80=94t=
here is no need to use a hash. &nbsp; In essence, requiring us to use a =
hash is specifying an implementation detail that needn=E2=80=99t be =
specified: you can in fact implement this using a hash, although I =
wouldn=E2=80=99t. &nbsp; It would be nice if I were not required to =
implement it that way, since I think that=E2=80=99s not actually going =
to work reliably.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular;" class=3D"">Also you mentioned caches which basically =
will never see these records unless they are queried for.</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular;" class=3D""></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I mentioned caches because they are by =
far the biggest consumers of resources=E2=80=94authoritative name =
servers have much smaller memory footprints. &nbsp; I assume the reason =
you think using hashes is a good idea and not a premature optimization =
is because you=E2=80=99ve done a lot of work with caching name servers, =
and are seeing this discussion through that lens. &nbsp; That=E2=80=99s =
the wrong lens to be seeing it through. &nbsp; This is only relevant for =
authoritative name servers, and in that case, storing the whole =
RR-to-be-deleted is fine.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Cc: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>, Dick Franks <rwfranks@acm.org>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
References: <155053239541.25848.12960190085730298684.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <969D8BA1-6ED3-47E8-AFFD-2BEE8EA3E66B@bangj.com> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902191219070.766@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <0DE33073-93B1-4CF5-B12D-B7266E21E8B2@timwattenberg.de> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902191715230.30381@bofh.nohats.ca> <1F461BFA-638A-4607-84BD-F8B8597A1114@isc.org> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902200028210.29865@bofh.nohats.ca> <646C86F6-C10D-43DF-ADE8-19222994E4D1@hopcount.ca> <E41DDEED-DF50-481F-9378-D721C3612643@isc.org> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902201928250.19193@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <9330E97B-76BF-4C6F-8F6F-01349A3E7427@isc.org> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902211215480.19193@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <CAKW6Ri7u5uCwcXgDrovgpEnhZCpkGGDMrxLHxbFVNvnveUPwWA@mail.gmail.com> <382BAB3C-C127-46E1-B931-4717A33BD75A@fugue.com> <4BF142EA-B2FB-4B00-9940-8A70FFEE5F6C@isc.org> <34BC472C-EF14-4872-BAC6-945AC18A7767@fugue.com> <5B21B95D-55D6-4916-8D1B-C921AB9712AA@isc.org> <75CA917D-1A6C-4717-934C-965570DC51C0@fugue.com> <597BB37C-3111-437D-A646-0F6D7A22B86A@isc.org> <81039A96-9CAB-4EC5-8142-7FD5976A01FE@fugue.com>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] New Version Notification for draft-pusateri-dnsop-update-timeout-01.txt
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> On Feb 21, 2019, at 1:29 PM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
>=20
> On Feb 21, 2019, at 2:24 PM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org =
<mailto:marka@isc.org>> wrote:
>> Implementation details are beyond the scope of RFCs.
>=20
> Indeed they are.  My point is that if you want to be careful of memory =
usage or disk usage, you can be=E2=80=94there is no need to use a hash.  =
 In essence, requiring us to use a hash is specifying an implementation =
detail that needn=E2=80=99t be specified: you can in fact implement this =
using a hash, although I wouldn=E2=80=99t.   It would be nice if I were =
not required to implement it that way, since I think that=E2=80=99s not =
actually going to work reliably.
>=20
>> Also you mentioned caches which basically will never see these =
records unless they are queried for.
>=20
>=20
> I mentioned caches because they are by far the biggest consumers of =
resources=E2=80=94authoritative name servers have much smaller memory =
footprints.   I assume the reason you think using hashes is a good idea =
and not a premature optimization is because you=E2=80=99ve done a lot of =
work with caching name servers, and are seeing this discussion through =
that lens.   That=E2=80=99s the wrong lens to be seeing it through.   =
This is only relevant for authoritative name servers, and in that case, =
storing the whole RR-to-be-deleted is fine.
>=20

I=E2=80=99ve been mostly listening and learning from this discussion =
which has been great. Thanks for all the input. Let me summarize what =
I=E2=80=99m hearing and we will open issues to adjust the document.

1. We need a motivational section to explain the purpose better

2. The HASH was my idea to simplify the records by making them all the =
same. It appears that simplicity in this form was not noticed or not =
appreciated. :)

3. The HASH algorithm selection was intended to work long term. It was =
my hope that there would only ever be one algorithm and there would =
never exist the case when one implementation supported an algorithm that =
another implementation did not. The HASH algorithm index was only =
intended to be used if a vulnerability was found in the ONE selected =
algorithm and it needed replaced. In this case, the old algorithm would =
be deprecated and everyone would switch to a new single algorithm. I am =
strongly opposed to having more than one HASH algorithm defined. Not =
being a security expert and not being able to find any papers proving =
that I could take an existing algorithm like SHA-256 that was 32 bytes =
and shorten it to 16 bytes using the first 16 bytes or the last 16 bytes =
or 16 bytes in the middle, I opted to select an algorithm that was =
already 16 bytes and proven to have terrific non-collision properties. =
Since some of the RDATA can be very short (A records), there are cases =
when there=E2=80=99s not a lot of data from which to base the hash value =
on. This was another reason to start with a hash like SHAKE128. But from =
the sounds of it, people prefer SHA-256 and so I will research this more =
to see about its applicability in this case (if a hash is even needed =
anymore).

4. We are open to using RDATA instead of a hash. Or we can define RDATA =
as an algorithm index as Mark suggested and define a hash as another =
algorithm (now or later if it ever becomes a problem). By adding the =
record type to the TIMEOUT instance, we have eliminated most uses of the =
hash already and only in rare cases will it be needed so including large =
RDATA in the TIMEOUT record should be rare.

5. Storing the TIMEOUT information as resource records seemed like a =
convenient way to use an existing database to store timeout information =
across restarts and to synchronize with secondaries. It can certainly be =
stored in a proprietary database by each authoritative server vendor but =
allowing them to interoperate seemed like a feature and when they each =
already have a database that holds resource records, why create another =
database type? But if the consensus is that the TIMEOUT info shouldn=E2=80=
=99t be stored in the existing resource record database but instead =
authoritative servers should create a new database for this info, then =
that is fine. This document itself can TIMEOUT. :)

Thanks,
Tom






--Apple-Mail=_7C2F004E-EB31-4D51-AE30-49A0720611CC
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Feb 21, 2019, at 1:29 PM, Ted Lemon &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com" class=3D"">mellon@fugue.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On Feb 21, 2019, at =
2:24 PM, Mark Andrews &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marka@isc.org" =
class=3D"">marka@isc.org</a>&gt; wrote:<div class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Implementation details are beyond the scope of =
RFCs.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Indeed they are. &nbsp;My point is that if you want to be =
careful of memory usage or disk usage, you can be=E2=80=94there is no =
need to use a hash. &nbsp; In essence, requiring us to use a hash is =
specifying an implementation detail that needn=E2=80=99t be specified: =
you can in fact implement this using a hash, although I wouldn=E2=80=99t. =
&nbsp; It would be nice if I were not required to implement it that way, =
since I think that=E2=80=99s not actually going to work =
reliably.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular;" =
class=3D"">Also you mentioned caches which basically will never see =
these records unless they are queried for.</span><br style=3D"caret-color:=
 rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular;" =
class=3D""></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I mentioned caches because they are by far the biggest =
consumers of resources=E2=80=94authoritative name servers have much =
smaller memory footprints. &nbsp; I assume the reason you think using =
hashes is a good idea and not a premature optimization is because =
you=E2=80=99ve done a lot of work with caching name servers, and are =
seeing this discussion through that lens. &nbsp; That=E2=80=99s the =
wrong lens to be seeing it through. &nbsp; This is only relevant for =
authoritative name servers, and in that case, storing the whole =
RR-to-be-deleted is fine.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div>I=E2=80=
=99ve been mostly listening and learning from this discussion which has =
been great. Thanks for all the input. Let me summarize what I=E2=80=99m =
hearing and we will open issues to adjust the document.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>1. We need a motivational section to explain the =
purpose better</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>2. The HASH was my =
idea to simplify the records by making them all the same. It appears =
that simplicity in this form was not noticed or not appreciated. =
:)</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>3. The HASH algorithm selection =
was intended to work long term. It was my hope that there would only =
ever be one algorithm and there would never exist the case when one =
implementation supported an algorithm that another implementation did =
not. The HASH algorithm index was only intended to be used if a =
vulnerability was found in the ONE selected algorithm and it needed =
replaced. In this case, the old algorithm would be deprecated and =
everyone would switch to a new single algorithm. I am strongly opposed =
to having more than one HASH algorithm defined. Not being a security =
expert and not being able to find any papers proving that I could take =
an existing algorithm like SHA-256 that was 32 bytes and shorten it to =
16 bytes using the first 16 bytes or the last 16 bytes or 16 bytes in =
the middle, I opted to select an algorithm that was already 16 bytes and =
proven to have terrific non-collision properties. Since some of the =
RDATA can be very short (A records), there are cases when there=E2=80=99s =
not a lot of data from which to base the hash value on. This was another =
reason to start with a hash like SHAKE128. But from the sounds of it, =
people prefer SHA-256 and so I will research this more to see about its =
applicability in this case (if a hash is even needed =
anymore).</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>4. We are open to using =
RDATA instead of a hash. Or we can define RDATA as an algorithm index as =
Mark suggested and define a hash as another algorithm (now or later if =
it ever becomes a problem). By adding the record type to the TIMEOUT =
instance, we have eliminated most uses of the hash already and only in =
rare cases will it be needed so including large RDATA in the TIMEOUT =
record should be rare.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>5. Storing =
the TIMEOUT information as resource records seemed like a convenient way =
to use an existing database to store timeout information across restarts =
and to synchronize with secondaries. It can certainly be stored in a =
proprietary database by each authoritative server vendor but allowing =
them to interoperate seemed like a feature and when they each already =
have a database that holds resource records, why create another database =
type? But if the consensus is that the TIMEOUT info shouldn=E2=80=99t be =
stored in the existing resource record database but instead =
authoritative servers should create a new database for this info, then =
that is fine. This document itself can TIMEOUT. :)</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Tom</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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From nobody Fri Feb 22 00:53:14 2019
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From: Tom Pusateri <pusateri@bangj.com>
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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 22:53:03 -1000
In-Reply-To: <90229901-37B4-4E03-B9FF-7505860E56BF@bangj.com>
Cc: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, Dick Franks <rwfranks@acm.org>, Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
References: <155053239541.25848.12960190085730298684.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <969D8BA1-6ED3-47E8-AFFD-2BEE8EA3E66B@bangj.com> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902191219070.766@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <0DE33073-93B1-4CF5-B12D-B7266E21E8B2@timwattenberg.de> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902191715230.30381@bofh.nohats.ca> <1F461BFA-638A-4607-84BD-F8B8597A1114@isc.org> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902200028210.29865@bofh.nohats.ca> <646C86F6-C10D-43DF-ADE8-19222994E4D1@hopcount.ca> <E41DDEED-DF50-481F-9378-D721C3612643@isc.org> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902201928250.19193@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <9330E97B-76BF-4C6F-8F6F-01349A3E7427@isc.org> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1902211215480.19193@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk> <CAKW6Ri7u5uCwcXgDrovgpEnhZCpkGGDMrxLHxbFVNvnveUPwWA@mail.gmail.com> <382BAB3C-C127-46E1-B931-4717A33BD75A@fugue.com> <4BF142EA-B2FB-4B00-9940-8A70FFEE5F6C@isc.org> <34BC472C-EF14-4872-BAC6-945AC18A7767@fugue.com> <5B21B95D-55D6-4916-8D1B-C921AB9712AA@isc.org> <75CA917D-1A6C-4717-934C-965570DC51C0@fugue.com> <597BB37C-3111-437D-A646-0F6D7A22B86A@isc.org> <81039A96-9CAB-4EC5-8142-7FD5976A01FE@fugue.com> <90229901-37B4-4E03-B9FF-7505860E56BF@bangj.com>
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> On Feb 21, 2019, at 10:19 PM, Tom Pusateri <pusateri@bangj.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Feb 21, 2019, at 1:29 PM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com =
<mailto:mellon@fugue.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> On Feb 21, 2019, at 2:24 PM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org =
<mailto:marka@isc.org>> wrote:
>>> Implementation details are beyond the scope of RFCs.
>>=20
>> Indeed they are.  My point is that if you want to be careful of =
memory usage or disk usage, you can be=E2=80=94there is no need to use a =
hash.   In essence, requiring us to use a hash is specifying an =
implementation detail that needn=E2=80=99t be specified: you can in fact =
implement this using a hash, although I wouldn=E2=80=99t.   It would be =
nice if I were not required to implement it that way, since I think =
that=E2=80=99s not actually going to work reliably.
>>=20
>>> Also you mentioned caches which basically will never see these =
records unless they are queried for.
>>=20
>>=20
>> I mentioned caches because they are by far the biggest consumers of =
resources=E2=80=94authoritative name servers have much smaller memory =
footprints.   I assume the reason you think using hashes is a good idea =
and not a premature optimization is because you=E2=80=99ve done a lot of =
work with caching name servers, and are seeing this discussion through =
that lens.   That=E2=80=99s the wrong lens to be seeing it through.   =
This is only relevant for authoritative name servers, and in that case, =
storing the whole RR-to-be-deleted is fine.
>>=20
>=20
> I=E2=80=99ve been mostly listening and learning from this discussion =
which has been great. Thanks for all the input. Let me summarize what =
I=E2=80=99m hearing and we will open issues to adjust the document.
>=20
> 1. We need a motivational section to explain the purpose better
>=20
> 2. The HASH was my idea to simplify the records by making them all the =
same. It appears that simplicity in this form was not noticed or not =
appreciated. :)
>=20
> 3. The HASH algorithm selection was intended to work long term. It was =
my hope that there would only ever be one algorithm and there would =
never exist the case when one implementation supported an algorithm that =
another implementation did not. The HASH algorithm index was only =
intended to be used if a vulnerability was found in the ONE selected =
algorithm and it needed replaced. In this case, the old algorithm would =
be deprecated and everyone would switch to a new single algorithm. I am =
strongly opposed to having more than one HASH algorithm defined. Not =
being a security expert and not being able to find any papers proving =
that I could take an existing algorithm like SHA-256 that was 32 bytes =
and shorten it to 16 bytes using the first 16 bytes or the last 16 bytes =
or 16 bytes in the middle, I opted to select an algorithm that was =
already 16 bytes and proven to have terrific non-collision properties. =
Since some of the RDATA can be very short (A records), there are cases =
when there=E2=80=99s not a lot of data from which to base the hash value =
on. This was another reason to start with a hash like SHAKE128. But from =
the sounds of it, people prefer SHA-256 and so I will research this more =
to see about its applicability in this case (if a hash is even needed =
anymore).
>=20
> 4. We are open to using RDATA instead of a hash. Or we can define =
RDATA as an algorithm index as Mark suggested and define a hash as =
another algorithm (now or later if it ever becomes a problem). By adding =
the record type to the TIMEOUT instance, we have eliminated most uses of =
the hash already and only in rare cases will it be needed so including =
large RDATA in the TIMEOUT record should be rare.
>=20
> 5. Storing the TIMEOUT information as resource records seemed like a =
convenient way to use an existing database to store timeout information =
across restarts and to synchronize with secondaries. It can certainly be =
stored in a proprietary database by each authoritative server vendor but =
allowing them to interoperate seemed like a feature and when they each =
already have a database that holds resource records, why create another =
database type? But if the consensus is that the TIMEOUT info shouldn=E2=80=
=99t be stored in the existing resource record database but instead =
authoritative servers should create a new database for this info, then =
that is fine. This document itself can TIMEOUT. :)
>=20

Forgot these:

6. As far as the time format, we were simply following the =
recommendations of RFC 3339 for presentation. But if DNS has it=E2=80=99s =
own format preferences and the IESG is ok with this, so are we. =
Following RFC 3339 is a SHOULD, therefore, there must be exceptions =
allowed but I=E2=80=99m not aware of the rules here.

7. As far as the timestamp as a 64-bit number, this is the current =
recommendation as well (and what is returned by gettimeofday()). So =
every authoritative server is having to modify the output and do more =
work to transform it into RFC 1982 serial number arithmetic now. But, =
again, we are flexible and as long as the IESG will approve it, we can =
do it the old way.

8. Mark said: "The record MUST be in canonical DNSSEC form ([RFC4034] =
Section 6)=E2=80=9D. I will update Section 4.5 to reflect this.

Tom



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charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Feb 21, 2019, at 10:19 PM, Tom Pusateri &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:pusateri@bangj.com" class=3D"">pusateri@bangj.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Feb 21, 2019, at 1:29 PM, =
Ted Lemon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com" =
class=3D"">mellon@fugue.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space;">On Feb 21, 2019, at 2:24 PM, Mark Andrews &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:marka@isc.org" class=3D"">marka@isc.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline =
!important;">Implementation details are beyond the scope of =
RFCs.</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Indeed they are. &nbsp;My point is that if you want to be =
careful of memory usage or disk usage, you can be=E2=80=94there is no =
need to use a hash. &nbsp; In essence, requiring us to use a hash is =
specifying an implementation detail that needn=E2=80=99t be specified: =
you can in fact implement this using a hash, although I wouldn=E2=80=99t. =
&nbsp; It would be nice if I were not required to implement it that way, =
since I think that=E2=80=99s not actually going to work =
reliably.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular;">Also =
you mentioned caches which basically will never see these records unless =
they are queried for.</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular;"></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I mentioned caches because they are by =
far the biggest consumers of resources=E2=80=94authoritative name =
servers have much smaller memory footprints. &nbsp; I assume the reason =
you think using hashes is a good idea and not a premature optimization =
is because you=E2=80=99ve done a lot of work with caching name servers, =
and are seeing this discussion through that lens. &nbsp; That=E2=80=99s =
the wrong lens to be seeing it through. &nbsp; This is only relevant for =
authoritative name servers, and in that case, storing the whole =
RR-to-be-deleted is fine.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=
=99ve been mostly listening and learning from this discussion which has =
been great. Thanks for all the input. Let me summarize what I=E2=80=99m =
hearing and we will open issues to adjust the document.</div><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">1. We need a motivational section to explain the =
purpose better</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">2. =
The HASH was my idea to simplify the records by making them all the =
same. It appears that simplicity in this form was not noticed or not =
appreciated. :)</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">3. =
The HASH algorithm selection was intended to work long term. It was my =
hope that there would only ever be one algorithm and there would never =
exist the case when one implementation supported an algorithm that =
another implementation did not. The HASH algorithm index was only =
intended to be used if a vulnerability was found in the ONE selected =
algorithm and it needed replaced. In this case, the old algorithm would =
be deprecated and everyone would switch to a new single algorithm. I am =
strongly opposed to having more than one HASH algorithm defined. Not =
being a security expert and not being able to find any papers proving =
that I could take an existing algorithm like SHA-256 that was 32 bytes =
and shorten it to 16 bytes using the first 16 bytes or the last 16 bytes =
or 16 bytes in the middle, I opted to select an algorithm that was =
already 16 bytes and proven to have terrific non-collision properties. =
Since some of the RDATA can be very short (A records), there are cases =
when there=E2=80=99s not a lot of data from which to base the hash value =
on. This was another reason to start with a hash like SHAKE128. But from =
the sounds of it, people prefer SHA-256 and so I will research this more =
to see about its applicability in this case (if a hash is even needed =
anymore).</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">4. We are open to using RDATA instead =
of a hash. Or we can define RDATA as an algorithm index as Mark =
suggested and define a hash as another algorithm (now or later if it =
ever becomes a problem). By adding the record type to the TIMEOUT =
instance, we have eliminated most uses of the hash already and only in =
rare cases will it be needed so including large RDATA in the TIMEOUT =
record should be rare.</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">5. =
Storing the TIMEOUT information as resource records seemed like a =
convenient way to use an existing database to store timeout information =
across restarts and to synchronize with secondaries. It can certainly be =
stored in a proprietary database by each authoritative server vendor but =
allowing them to interoperate seemed like a feature and when they each =
already have a database that holds resource records, why create another =
database type? But if the consensus is that the TIMEOUT info shouldn=E2=80=
=99t be stored in the existing resource record database but instead =
authoritative servers should create a new database for this info, then =
that is fine. This document itself can TIMEOUT. :)</div><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div>Forgot =
these:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>6. As far as the time format, =
we were simply following the recommendations of RFC 3339 for =
presentation. But if DNS has it=E2=80=99s own format preferences and the =
IESG is ok with this, so are we. Following RFC 3339 is a SHOULD, =
therefore, there must be exceptions allowed but I=E2=80=99m not aware of =
the rules here.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>7. As far as the =
timestamp as a 64-bit number, this is the current recommendation as well =
(and what is returned by gettimeofday()). So every authoritative server =
is having to modify the output and do more work to transform it into RFC =
1982 serial number arithmetic now. But, again, we are flexible and as =
long as the IESG will approve it, we can do it the old =
way.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>8. Mark said: "The record MUST =
be in canonical DNSSEC form ([RFC4034] Section 6)=E2=80=9D. I will =
update Section 4.5 to reflect this.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Tom</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_C076391E-F207-4E15-9EF9-114746272B53--


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From: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
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On Mon, 18 Feb 2019, Alexander Mayrhofer wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 7:47 PM Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> wrote:
>> I think this document should be Experimental and not Standards Track?
>
> I was torn when i did the first revision of this. I think it depends
> on the stability of Decentralized Identifiers themselves. Once that
> schema becomes widely used, i think any protocol that connects the DNS
> and DIDs should be Standards Track. But i leave that up to "higher
> forces" as soon as i find a suitable "home WG" for that.

My idea was that if this is an IRTF document, not a DNSOP document, that
it cannot be standards track? But I might be wrong about this.

> Agreed. I've considered replacing the "instruction diff" to OpenPGP
> with a full description in the document itself.

that would be better, but with an informative reference so indeed people
know this is the "common way" of doing this and not custom to this
document.


> Yep, introduces a zone cut. Then again, i'm not sure what (if we
> introduce that schema above) the semantics of a record right unter
> _did would be.. Or would that be disallowed?

I would avoid putting something there directly, yes.

> So, would you be interested to discuss this in Prague?

Sure. I will also be in Prague the week before at NetDev.

Paul


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From: Matt Larson <matt.larson@icann.org>
To: dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: ICANN DNS Symposium 2019 solicitation of presentation proposals 
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From nobody Fri Feb 22 08:30:58 2019
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From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] ICANN DNS Symposium 2019 solicitation of presentation proposals
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noting matt larson's note this morning as follows...

Matt Larson wrote on 2019-02-22 08:06:
> Dear colleagues,
> 
> Please permit me to call your attention to my earlier announcement 
> (included below) of the ICANN DNS Symposium on 10-11 May 2019 in 
> Bangkok, Thailand. In particular, I'd like to reiterate our request for 
> proposals for this year's theme, "Understanding the Security, Stability 
> and Resiliency of the Domain Name System". Please send a one-paragraph 
> description of your proposed topic to ids-proposals@icann.org 
> <mailto:ids-proposals@icann.org>Â by Friday, 8 March 2019. We will reply 
> by 15 March 2019 and publish a preliminary agenda shortly thereafter.
> 
> Thanks, and hope to see you in Bangkok.
> 
> Matt Larson
> VP of Research
> ICANN Office of the CTO

...i have submitted two talks, and i hope to see many of you there.

vixie

re:

> 
> 
>> On Jan 18, 2019, at 4:16 PM, Matt Larson <matt.larson@icann.org 
>> <mailto:matt.larson@icann.org>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear colleagues,
>>
>> ICANNâ€™s Office of the CTO is pleased to announce that the third ICANN 
>> DNS Symposium (IDS 2019) will be held 10-11 May 2019 in Bangkok, 
>> Thailand. IDS 2019 is co-locating with the fifth GDD Industry Summit 
>> (6-9 May 2019), the Registration Operations Workshop - ROW (9 May 
>> 2019) and the OARC 30 Workshop (12-13 May 2019).
>>
>> The theme for IDS 2019 is: "Understanding the Security, Stability and 
>> Resiliency of the Domain Name System".
>>
>> IDS 2019 will comprise two days of presentations and panels focusing 
>> on emerging technologies, protocols and other issues that may affect 
>> the security, stability, or resiliency (SSR) of the Domain Name 
>> System. We invite members of research, academic, and operational 
>> communities to present experiences, data, or ideas related to the DNS 
>> as viewed through an SSR lens. Specific topics of interest are 
>> measurement and detection of activities that may impact the SSR of the 
>> DNS, as well as prevention of DNS abuse.
>>
>> We are soliciting proposals for presentations. Please send a 
>> one-paragraph description of your proposed topic to 
>> ids-proposals@icann.org <mailto:ids-proposals@icann.org>Â by Friday, 8 
>> March 2019. We will reply by 15 March 2019 and publish a preliminary 
>> agenda shortly thereafter.
>>
>> For more information, including schedule and venue information, please 
>> visit https://www.icann.org/ids.
>>
>> Thank you and we hope to see you there.
>>
>> Matt Larson
>> VP of Research
>> ICANN Office of the CTO
>>
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
> 


-- 
P Vixie


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Subject: [DNSOP] IETF104 Agenda and call for Agenda Items
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All

The IETF104 Agenda is out
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/agenda.html
and DNSOP has two sessions

Tuesday 13:50-15:50

Friday 09:30-10:30

The longer meeting is reserved for either adopted work initially, with the
second meeting for looking at newer work that may not  have much comments.

This is also a call for Agenda requests. Please email the chairs (
dnsop-chairs@ietf.org) with your requests.
*Or* drop us a pull request https://github.com/DNSOP/dnsop-ietf104  look
for dnsop-ietf104-agenda-requests.txt

Please Note: * Draft Submission Deadline is Monday March 11, 2019*

We've updated our list of Documents the chairs are considering and their
current status:
https://github.com/DNSOP/wg-materials/blob/master/dnsop-document-status.txt

Any other questions please let us know.

thanks

Tim
Suzanne
Benno

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>All<br></div><div><=
div><br></div><div>The IETF104 Agenda is out <a href=3D"https://datatracker=
.ietf.org/meeting/104/agenda.html">https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104=
/agenda.html</a></div><div>and DNSOP has two sessions<br></div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Tuesday 13:50-15:50</div><div><br></div><div>Friday 09:30-10:30</di=
v><div><br></div><div>The longer meeting is reserved for either adopted wor=
k initially, with the second meeting for looking at newer work that may not=
 =C2=A0have much comments.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>This is also a ca=
ll for Agenda requests. Please email the chairs (<a href=3D"mailto:dnsop-ch=
airs@ietf.org">dnsop-chairs@ietf.org</a>) with your requests.</div><div>*Or=
* drop us a pull request <a href=3D"https://github.com/DNSOP/dnsop-ietf104"=
>https://github.com/DNSOP/dnsop-ietf104</a> =C2=A0look for dnsop-ietf104-ag=
enda-requests.txt</div><div><br></div><div>Please Note: <b>=C2=A0Draft Subm=
ission Deadline is Monday March 11, 2019</b></div><div><br></div><div>We&#3=
9;ve updated our list of Documents the chairs are considering and their cur=
rent status:=C2=A0</div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/DNSOP/wg-materia=
ls/blob/master/dnsop-document-status.txt">https://github.com/DNSOP/wg-mater=
ials/blob/master/dnsop-document-status.txt</a></div></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Any other questions please let us know.</div><div><br></div><div>thanks<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Tim</div><div>Suzanne</div><div>Benno</div><div><b=
r></div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

--00000000000045875a0582879b74--


From nobody Sat Feb 23 10:54:16 2019
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Subject: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-serve-stale-03.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Domain Name System Operations WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Serving Stale Data to Improve DNS Resiliency
        Authors         : David C Lawrence
                          Warren "Ace" Kumari
                          Puneet Sood
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dnsop-serve-stale-03.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2019-02-23

Abstract:
   This draft defines a method for recursive resolvers to use stale DNS
   data to avoid outages when authoritative nameservers cannot be
   reached to refresh expired data.  It updates the definition of TTL
   from [RFC1034], [RFC1035], and [RFC2181] to make it clear that data
   can be kept in the cache beyond the TTL expiry and used for responses
   when a refreshed answer is not readily available.  One of the
   motivations for serve-stale is to make the DNS more resilient to DoS
   attacks, and thereby make them less attractive as an attack vector.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-serve-stale/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-serve-stale-03
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-serve-stale-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dnsop-serve-stale-03


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Mon Feb 25 07:23:04 2019
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Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:22:54 -0300 (ART)
From: Alejandro D'Egidio <adegidio@telecentro.net.ar>
To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org list" <v6ops@ietf.org>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: inputs on NAT64/464XLAT Deployment Guidelines in Operator and Enterprise Networks draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [v6ops] inputs on NAT64/464XLAT Deployment Guidelines in Operator and Enterprise Networks draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment
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Hello Jordi,
I like 464XLAT and this is something I would like to implement in DOCSIS networks.
As Deployment Guidelines maybe you can include/consider the next case, if not please forget it or we can include it on another document.

Today we still have many devices that don't support IPv6 or some applications on it don't support it, this is the case of SMART TVs and set top boxes.
There is a common scenario where big public CDNs support deliver content to private IPv4 destinations (usually CGN prefixes) directly without going through a CGN.
In that scenario, CPEs (with eRouter) that have IPv4 of CGN (ie 100.64.x.x) can connect receive traffic from CDNs directly without having any CGN in the middle.

So I see three points in this case:
1- Traffic avoids a point of failure (CGN), obviously it should be redundant but the point of failure exists.
2- Traffic is more "transparent" avoiding another translation for CDN.
3- This traffic doesn't impact in CGN sizing.

As I said, I like 464XLAT and I would like to have a IPv6-Only access network but this is a real case where ISPs can consider to continue provisioning IPv4 to customers.



Regards,
Alejandro

----- Mensaje original -----
De: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" <jordi.palet=40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org>
Para: "v6ops@ietf.org list" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "dnsop" <dnsop@ietf.org>
Enviados: Jueves, 21 de Febrero 2019 2:58:36
Asunto: [v6ops] inputs on NAT64/464XLAT Deployment Guidelines in Operator and Enterprise Networks draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment

Hi all,

(dnsop copied because DNS64)

I'm working in a new version of this document.

Link to the document:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment/

It will be great if we can get some new inputs.

Thanks!

Regards,
Jordi
 
 



**********************************************
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Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 11:24:12 -0500
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--0000000000009ebe0e0582ba5ffb
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Sat, Feb 23, 2019 at 1:54 PM <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:

>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Domain Name System Operations WG of the
> IETF.
>
>         Title           : Serving Stale Data to Improve DNS Resiliency
>         Authors         : David C Lawrence
>                           Warren "Ace" Kumari
>                           Puneet Sood
>         Filename        : draft-ietf-dnsop-serve-stale-03.txt
>         Pages           : 11
>         Date            : 2019-02-23
>
> Abstract:
>    This draft defines a method for recursive resolvers to use stale DNS
>    data to avoid outages when authoritative nameservers cannot be
>    reached to refresh expired data.  It updates the definition of TTL
>    from [RFC1034], [RFC1035], and [RFC2181] to make it clear that data
>    can be kept in the cache beyond the TTL expiry and used for responses
>    when a refreshed answer is not readily available.  One of the
>    motivations for serve-stale is to make the DNS more resilient to DoS
>    attacks, and thereby make them less attractive as an attack vector.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-serve-stale/
>
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-serve-stale-03
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-serve-stale-03
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dnsop-serve-stale-03
>
>
In section 5:
Will the "resolution recheck timer" cause ttl's less than the timer to be
effectively lengthened, by refusing to look them up again?

I think 'serve-stale' should focus on the situation where the auth server
is not available, and not change the handling of short ttl's.  Or am I
mis-reading that?

-- 
Bob Harold

--0000000000009ebe0e0582ba5ffb
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Feb 23, 2019 at 1:54 PM &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.<br>
This draft is a work item of the Domain Name System Operations WG of the IE=
TF.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 Serving Stale Data to Improve DNS Resiliency<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Davi=
d C Lawrence<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Warren &quot;Ace&quot; Kumari<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Puneet Sood<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet=
f-dnsop-serve-stale-03.txt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 11<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 :=
 2019-02-23<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This draft defines a method for recursive resolvers to use sta=
le DNS<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0data to avoid outages when authoritative nameservers cannot be=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0reached to refresh expired data.=C2=A0 It updates the definiti=
on of TTL<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0from [RFC1034], [RFC1035], and [RFC2181] to make it clear that=
 data<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0can be kept in the cache beyond the TTL expiry and used for re=
sponses<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0when a refreshed answer is not readily available.=C2=A0 One of=
 the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0motivations for serve-stale is to make the DNS more resilient =
to DoS<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0attacks, and thereby make them less attractive as an attack ve=
ctor.<br>
<br>
<br>
The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-serve-stale/" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft=
-ietf-dnsop-serve-stale/</a><br>
<br>
There are also htmlized versions available at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-serve-stale-03" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dn=
sop-serve-stale-03</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-serve-sta=
le-03" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/do=
c/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-serve-stale-03</a><br>
<br>
A diff from the previous version is available at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-dnsop-serve-stale=
-03" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=
=3Ddraft-ietf-dnsop-serve-stale-03</a><br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div>In section 5:<br><div>Will the &quot;resolu=
tion recheck timer&quot; cause ttl&#39;s less than the timer to be effectiv=
ely lengthened, by refusing to look them up again?</div><div><br></div><div=
>I think &#39;serve-stale&#39; should focus on the situation where the auth=
 server is not available, and not change the handling of short ttl&#39;s.=
=C2=A0 Or am I mis-reading that?<br></div><div><br></div><div>--=C2=A0</div=
><div>Bob Harold</div><div><br></div></div></div>

--0000000000009ebe0e0582ba5ffb--


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From: "Brotman, Alexander" <Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com>
To: "art@ietf.org" <art@ietf.org>, "dbound@ietf.org" <dbound@ietf.org>
CC: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/I31oAuiZ4yTZzPuyD0xO-CAzeK4>
Subject: [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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Hello,

Stephen and I have spent a bit of time working on a draft to be able to sho=
w a relationship between two domains.  We're aware this subject has been co=
vered a few times previously, especially in the DBOUND drafts, but we're ho=
peful that a more simple approach might be more acceptable.   The secondary=
 domain will create a DNS record that shows a link to a primary domain, and=
 the text should be able to be validated using the public key in a DNS reco=
rd the primary domain shares.  This is something akin to DKIM, a mechanism =
that the email world uses to ensure the contents of a message have not been=
 tampered with.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brotman-rdbd/

We'll request that replies relating to this be sent to the dbound@ietf.org =
due to the nature of the topic, but it was suggested that we might want to =
notify a few other lists for their awareness.  Thank you for your participa=
tion and comments.

--
Alex Brotman
Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy
Comcast


From nobody Mon Feb 25 14:23:51 2019
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Subject: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-no-response-issue-13.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Domain Name System Operations WG of the IETF.

        Title           : A Common Operational Problem in DNS Servers - Failure To Communicate.
        Authors         : M. Andrews
                          Ray Bellis
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dnsop-no-response-issue-13.txt
	Pages           : 26
	Date            : 2019-02-25

Abstract:
   The DNS is a query / response protocol.  Failing to respond to
   queries, or responding incorrectly, causes both immediate operational
   problems and long term problems with protocol development.

   This document identifies a number of common kinds of queries to which
   some servers either fail to respond or else respond incorrectly.
   This document also suggests procedures for TLD and other zone
   operators to apply to mitigate the problem.

   The document does not look at the DNS data itself, just the structure
   of the responses.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-no-response-issue/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-no-response-issue-13
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-no-response-issue-13

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dnsop-no-response-issue-13


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Mon Feb 25 23:43:52 2019
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Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 16:43:39 +0900
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/8hAFaTEWuYrhQnKVakECq1jbOqw>
Subject: [DNSOP] Extended Deadline for Submissions for 30th DNS-OARC Workshop
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Hi,

We have extended the submission deadline for the 30th DNS-OARC workshop
to March 8th:

The 30th DNS-OARC Workshop will take place at the Shangri-La Hotel,
Bangkok, Thailand, on May 12th and 13th 2019, hosted by ICANN.

(Note that several co-located meetings are taking place immediately
prior to the DNS-OARC Workshop, including the GDD Industry Summit, May
6th-9th, the Registrations Operations Workshop, May 9th, and the ICANN
DNS Symposium, May 10th-11th.)

The Workshop's Program Committee is now requesting proposals for
presentations.  All DNS-related subjects are welcome.

A timeslot will also be available for lightning talks (5-10 minutes
each) on day two of the workshop for which submissions will be accepted
until the start of the morning session on day two.

There will be a Members-only session during the workshop, which will
include  reports on DNS-OARC's activities. If you are an OARC member and
have a sensitive topic that you wish to present during that session
those can be accommodated.

Workshop Milestones:
    05 Dec 2018 - Submissions open via Indico
    08 Mar 2019 - Extended Deadline for submission (midnight ICT)
    11 Mar 2019 - Initial Contribution list published
    22 Mar 2019 - Full agenda published
    03 May 2019 - Deadline for slideset submission
    12 May 2019 - Workshop

Details for presentation submission are published here:

    <https://indico.dns-oarc.net/event/31/call-for-abstracts/>

The workshop presentations will be organized by common themes, depending
on the topics and the timing of each presentation. There are 30-minute
and 15-minute slots, let us know your preference in your submission.

To allow the Programme Committee to make objective assessments of
submissions, so as to ensure the quality of the workshop, submissions
SHOULD include slides.  Draft slides are acceptable on submission.

If you have questions or concerns you can contact the Programme Committee:

    https://www.dns-oarc.net/oarc/programme

via <submissions@dns-oarc.net>

Ralph Dolmans, for the DNS-OARC Programme Committee

OARC depends on sponsorship to fund its workshops and associated social
events.  Please contact <sponsor@dns-oarc.net> if your organization is
interested in becoming a sponsor.

(Please note that OARC is run on a non-profit basis, and is not in a
position to reimburse expenses or time for speakers at its meetings.)


From nobody Tue Feb 26 01:35:35 2019
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To: Mukund Sivaraman <muks@mukund.org>
cc: dnsop@ietf.org
In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 19 Nov 2018 19:15:34 +0530. <20181119134534.GA1450@jurassic>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 09:54:36 +0100
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/Rj8ArPjsbd_uRkvCB827_2jN1MA>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Review of draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc2845bis-02.txt
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 In your previous mail you wrote:

>  Two points that I request this WG to discuss are:
>  
>  1. Sparsely TSIG signed TCP continuation messages (section 6.4 in draft)

=> I'd like to do this but it is not possible to change requirements
for existing implementations so easily. I added a SHOULD for signing
all messages so on the long term they should disapear.,,

>  2. Truncated MACs

=> first they are optional so not required to be implemented/supported.
Second I'd like to get the opinion from a cryptographer because I heard
that truncated HMACs have some security benefits. Last of course they
make messages shorter so have a clear operational advantage.
 Now I do not know if they are heavily used. If they are not we can consider
to add a NOT RECOMMENDED for their implementation/support even it is not
really in the scope of the document.

Thanks

Francis.Dupont@fdupont.fr


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Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 09:24:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
To: "Brotman, Alexander" <Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com>
cc: "art@ietf.org" <art@ietf.org>, "dbound@ietf.org" <dbound@ietf.org>,  "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>,  Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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On Mon, 25 Feb 2019, Brotman, Alexander wrote:

> Stephen and I have spent a bit of time working on a draft to be able to show a relationship between two domains.  We're aware this subject has been covered a few times previously, especially in the DBOUND drafts, but we're hopeful that a more simple approach might be more acceptable.   The secondary domain will create a DNS record that shows a link to a primary domain, and the text should be able to be validated using the public key in a DNS record the primary domain shares.  This is something akin to DKIM, a mechanism that the email world uses to ensure the contents of a message have not been tampered with.
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brotman-rdbd/

I've read the draft, and I have my usual complaints.

If we put stuff into the DNS for security decisions, saying "its better
if you use this data when it is DNSSEC signed" is just too weak. We are
splashing TOFU everywhere and putting CT bandaids on it. It's long overdue
that we stop with that. Just require DNSSEC.

And if you require DNSSEC validation, then the solution becomes
much simpler and could be encoded in a single bit, see:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pwouters-powerbind

Paul


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From: "Brotman, Alexander" <Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com>
To: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
CC: "art@ietf.org" <art@ietf.org>, "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>, "Stephen Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, "dbound@ietf.org" <dbound@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dbound] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [dbound]  Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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I'm supportive of doing this in other ways, but also understand that DNSSEC=
 is not widely deployed.  I suppose that's ultimately a crutch, though it i=
s the current situation.  With that being said, we thought this would be on=
e reasonable approach to being able to show that relationship.  We could po=
tentially have a non-DNSSEC and DNSSEC method in the same draft, if that's =
something that might be agreeable?

--
Alex Brotman
Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy
Comcast

-----Original Message-----
From: dbound <dbound-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Paul Wouters
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 9:25 AM
To: Brotman, Alexander <Alexander_Brotman@cable.comcast.com>
Cc: art@ietf.org; dnsop@ietf.org; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.i=
e>; dbound@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dbound] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft

On Mon, 25 Feb 2019, Brotman, Alexander wrote:

> Stephen and I have spent a bit of time working on a draft to be able to s=
how a relationship between two domains.  We're aware this subject has been =
covered a few times previously, especially in the DBOUND drafts, but we're =
hopeful that a more simple approach might be more acceptable.   The seconda=
ry domain will create a DNS record that shows a link to a primary domain, a=
nd the text should be able to be validated using the public key in a DNS re=
cord the primary domain shares.  This is something akin to DKIM, a mechanis=
m that the email world uses to ensure the contents of a message have not be=
en tampered with.
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brotman-rdbd/

I've read the draft, and I have my usual complaints.

If we put stuff into the DNS for security decisions, saying "its better if =
you use this data when it is DNSSEC signed" is just too weak. We are splash=
ing TOFU everywhere and putting CT bandaids on it. It's long overdue that w=
e stop with that. Just require DNSSEC.

And if you require DNSSEC validation, then the solution becomes much simple=
r and could be encoded in a single bit, see:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pwouters-powerbind

Paul

_______________________________________________
dbound mailing list
dbound@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dbound


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Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:48:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
To: "Brotman, Alexander" <Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com>
cc: "art@ietf.org" <art@ietf.org>, "dbound@ietf.org" <dbound@ietf.org>,  "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>,  Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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On Wed, 27 Feb 2019, Paul Wouters wrote:

>>  https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brotman-rdbd/
>
> I've read the draft, and I have my usual complaints.

I scanned this document a bit too fast, with an eye on parent-child
relationships and didn't fully realise this is about relating domains
at different parts in the DNS hierarchy alltogether.

So now I do understand the format and use better. I'm not sure if the
DNS is the best place for this information, but it is not the worst
place either. So in that sense this proposal seems fine.

I do still have a concern that this is using its own signature schemes
embedded in the records instead of relying on DNSSEC. But I guess
that's just the world we live in now.

Paul


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From: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
To: "Brotman, Alexander" <Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com>
cc: "art@ietf.org" <art@ietf.org>, "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>,  Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>,  "dbound@ietf.org" <dbound@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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On Wed, 27 Feb 2019, Paul Wouters wrote:

>>>   https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brotman-rdbd/

One more question (and then I promise to walk away from the keyboard for
a while)

How is this data being consumed by the enduser ? It sort of begins
to look like an EV thing. Also, wouldn't attackers just link their
fake domain to another fake domain to get a green looking OKAY?

Paul


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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
To: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>,
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Subject: Re: [dbound] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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Hi Paul,

On 27/02/2019 15:48, Paul Wouters wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Feb 2019, Paul Wouters wrote:
>=20
>>> =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brotman-rdbd/
>>
>> I've read the draft, and I have my usual complaints.

Thanks for taking a read!

> I scanned this document a bit too fast, with an eye on parent-child
> relationships and didn't fully realise this is about relating domains
> at different parts in the DNS hierarchy alltogether.

And even more thanks for reading it twice! It is short,
luckily:-)

Great that you think it's uncrazy.

>=20
> So now I do understand the format and use better. I'm not sure if the
> DNS is the best place for this information, but it is not the worst
> place either. So in that sense this proposal seems fine.

Yep. Actually in exchanges with John Levine on the dbound
list, (he was v. reasonably questioning the value of these
new signatures), I myself only copped on that this could
be of some use where the primary has DNSSEC but where the
secondary doesn't, which is maybe interesting.

Those mails are here [1] if someone's interested.

> I do still have a concern that this is using its own signature schemes
> embedded in the records instead of relying on DNSSEC. But I guess
> that's just the world we live in now.

Yep. After both domains have DNSSEC, then this could all be
simpler. Before they do, there may be value in the sigs though
see John's simplification suggestion at [1].

Cheers,
S.

[1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dbound/PON1ipCbK_ea67fbyvhUzSfj=
5og


>=20
> Paul
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> dbound mailing list
> dbound@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dbound
>=20

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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Message-ID: <d8ac67de-35ec-648c-df0e-662439463ec3@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:14:46 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/Lh7HKeg-WzviM3wjwLKy5ke3XNY>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [dbound]  Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
To: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>,
 "Brotman, Alexander" <Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com>
Cc: "art@ietf.org" <art@ietf.org>, "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>,
 "dbound@ietf.org" <dbound@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <d8ac67de-35ec-648c-df0e-662439463ec3@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [dbound] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
References: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902270920580.8896@bofh.nohats.ca>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902271037500.21061@bofh.nohats.ca>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902271053200.21061@bofh.nohats.ca>
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902271053200.21061@bofh.nohats.ca>

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Hiya,

On 27/02/2019 15:54, Paul Wouters wrote:
> How is this data being consumed by the enduser ?=20

Very good question. Sorry for what's likely a longer
answer than you want:-)

Alex and I chatted about that and I think ended up
figuring: a) there are many potential semantics that
could be associated with such a linkage, b) we don't
yet know what'd be useful, but c) no, we are defo
not trying for an EV-like thing and lastly d) we really
want to keep this as simple as possible - given there's
a lot of feature-creep potential here, and that'd likely
be fatal.

My own use-case for this relates more to surveys, where
I'd like to get a hint that two names are related so I
could take that into account. Alex's is more business
like (as you'd expect:-) he'd like to be able to feed
this kind of linkage information into mail processing,
e.g. perhaps to treat some mails as less-likely spam if
he sees a link, compared to if he doesn't (with all the
other mail processing foo that'd clearly be required to
not do that kind of thing stupidly of course). We guess
that there'd be other uses too but finding out if this
is seen as useful enough that people would publish RR's
is part of why we shot out the draft now.

We also considered whether or not to e.g. try to add
some kind of flag to indicate semantics but reckoned we
don't know enough to do that for now.

Cheers,
S.

> It sort of begins
> to look like an EV thing. Also, wouldn't attackers just link their
> fake domain to another fake domain to get a green looking OKAY?


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From nobody Wed Feb 27 08:26:39 2019
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Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:26:29 +0000
From: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
To: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
cc: "Brotman, Alexander" <Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com>,  "art@ietf.org" <art@ietf.org>, "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>,  Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>,  "dbound@ietf.org" <dbound@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> wrote:
>
> I do still have a concern that this is using its own signature schemes
> embedded in the records instead of relying on DNSSEC. But I guess
> that's just the world we live in now.

I wonder if it should instead be a SIG(SOA) where the signer is the
primary domain, but I'm not sure what the other bits of this SIG record
should say. Also, I wasn't around when DNSSEC worked like that, so there
are likely to be all sorts of good reasons why this is not a fun and
enticing prospect.

Tony.
-- 
f.anthony.n.finch  <dot@dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
no one shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance, or conformity


From nobody Wed Feb 27 08:37:39 2019
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From: "Hollenbeck, Scott" <shollenbeck@verisign.com>
To: "stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, "paul@nohats.ca" <paul@nohats.ca>, "Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com" <Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com>
CC: "art@ietf.org" <art@ietf.org>, "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>, "dbound@ietf.org" <dbound@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [DNSOP] [dbound]  Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
Thread-Index: AQHUzrefByxL0Iby3E2AX95fpgituaXz1qOA
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:37:32 +0000
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References: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902270920580.8896@bofh.nohats.ca> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902271037500.21061@bofh.nohats.ca> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902271053200.21061@bofh.nohats.ca> <d8ac67de-35ec-648c-df0e-662439463ec3@cs.tcd.ie>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [dbound]  Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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From nobody Wed Feb 27 08:52:26 2019
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From: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>
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Cc: "stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, "Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com" <Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com>, "art@ietf.org" <art@ietf.org>, "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>, "dbound@ietf.org" <dbound@ietf.org>
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References: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902270920580.8896@bofh.nohats.ca> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902271037500.21061@bofh.nohats.ca> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902271053200.21061@bofh.nohats.ca> <d8ac67de-35ec-648c-df0e-662439463ec3@cs.tcd.ie> <804a305f4d1b40daa6e9ca9b3e97f96d@verisign.com>
To: "Hollenbeck, Scott" <shollenbeck=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/_0W3codGW9vEDvd1YlhHzEVi4zs>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [dbound]  Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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If it is really only a variant, you should just DNAME it to the other domain=
 ?

Sent from mobile device

On Feb 27, 2019, at 11:37, Hollenbeck, Scott <shollenbeck=3D40verisign.com@d=
marc.ietf.org> wrote:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DNSOP <dnsop-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 11:15 AM
>> To: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>; Brotman, Alexander
>> <Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com>
>> Cc: art@ietf.org; dnsop@ietf.org; dbound@ietf.org
>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [DNSOP] [dbound] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD)
>> Draft
>>=20
>>=20
>> Hiya,
>>=20
>>> On 27/02/2019 15:54, Paul Wouters wrote:
>>> How is this data being consumed by the enduser ?
>>=20
>> Very good question. Sorry for what's likely a longer answer than you want=
:-)
>>=20
>> Alex and I chatted about that and I think ended up
>> figuring: a) there are many potential semantics that could be associated w=
ith
>> such a linkage, b) we don't yet know what'd be useful, but c) no, we are d=
efo
>> not trying for an EV-like thing and lastly d) we really want to keep this=
 as
>> simple as possible - given there's a lot of feature-creep potential here,=
 and
>> that'd likely be fatal.
>>=20
>> My own use-case for this relates more to surveys, where I'd like to get a=
 hint
>> that two names are related so I could take that into account. Alex's is m=
ore
>> business like (as you'd expect:-) he'd like to be able to feed this kind o=
f
>> linkage information into mail processing, e.g. perhaps to treat some mail=
s as
>> less-likely spam if he sees a link, compared to if he doesn't (with all t=
he other
>> mail processing foo that'd clearly be required to not do that kind of thi=
ng
>> stupidly of course). We guess that there'd be other uses too but finding o=
ut if
>> this is seen as useful enough that people would publish RR's is part of w=
hy
>> we shot out the draft now.
>>=20
>> We also considered whether or not to e.g. try to add some kind of flag to=

>> indicate semantics but reckoned we don't know enough to do that for now.
>=20
> This might also be useful for IDN variants where some downstream consumer w=
ould like to know that two different IDNs are actually "the same". The relat=
ionship between variants isn't a parent-child relationship (they're more com=
monly siblings), but perhaps the concept could be extended to identify sibli=
ng relationships, too.
>=20
> Scott
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop


From nobody Wed Feb 27 09:23:34 2019
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From: David Conrad <drc@virtualized.org>
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Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 18:23:22 +0100
Cc: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>, "art@ietf.org" <art@ietf.org>, "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>, "dbound@ietf.org" <dbound@ietf.org>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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References: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> <alpine.LRH.2.21.1902270920580.8896@bofh.nohats.ca> <f14544d37a774907a7cc76ab5bdb8b72@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com>
To: "Brotman, Alexander" <Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/BKotBJpWvLwSyf9FBVX1z3dh2BQ>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [dbound]  Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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Alexander,

On Feb 27, 2019, at 4:32 PM, Brotman, Alexander =
<Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com> wrote:
> I'm supportive of doing this in other ways, but also understand that =
DNSSEC is not widely deployed.

There is a difference between not being deployed and not being turned =
on.  My impression is that most DNS servers these days support DNSSEC, =
however it has largely not been enabled.  If you are going to be putting =
stuff into the DNS for security decisions, you need to protect that =
stuff and that means turning on DNSSEC.

Regards,
-drc



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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Alexander,<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""></div><div>On =
Feb 27, 2019, at 4:32 PM, Brotman, Alexander &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com" =
class=3D"">Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">I'm =
supportive of doing this in other ways, but also understand that DNSSEC =
is not widely deployed. &nbsp;</span></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>There is a difference between not being deployed =
and not being turned on. &nbsp;My impression is that most DNS servers =
these days support DNSSEC, however it has largely not been enabled. =
&nbsp;If you are going to be putting stuff into the DNS for security =
decisions, you need to protect that stuff and that means turning on =
DNSSEC.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Regards,</div><div>-drc</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D""><style =
class=3D"">ul[class*=3D'mb-extra__public-links'], =
ul[class*=3D'mb-note__public-links'], ul[class*=3D'mb-task__public-links']=
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From nobody Wed Feb 27 09:26:13 2019
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Date: 27 Feb 2019 12:26:03 -0500
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From: "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com>
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To: "Stephen Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [dbound]  Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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> new signatures), I myself only copped on that this could
> be of some use where the primary has DNSSEC but where the
> secondary doesn't, which is maybe interesting.

In that case, the primary can just publish pointers to the secondaries, 
and we're done.

The DKIM-like signatures have an odd model where the primary has enough 
control over its DNS to publish the validation key, and enough to give the 
secondaries signed records for their names they can publish that point 
back to that key, but not enough just to publish the secondaries' names 
directly.  I don't get it.

Regards,
John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly


From nobody Wed Feb 27 10:38:56 2019
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On Feb 27, 2019, at 10:57 AM, Stephen Farrell =
<stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
> Yep. After both domains have DNSSEC, then this could all be
> simpler. Before they do, there may be value in the sigs though
> see John's simplification suggestion at [1].

If they don=E2=80=99t have DNSSEC, what=E2=80=99s the point of saying =
the domains are related anyway?   What are the security properties of =
such an assertion when the content of the zones can=E2=80=99t be =
validated?



--Apple-Mail=_9E73AE07-C186-4A6D-83C3-51E8CDC2460C
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Feb 27, 2019, at 10:57 AM, Stephen Farrell &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie" =
class=3D"">stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Yep. After both domains have DNSSEC, then this could all =
be</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">simpler. =
Before they do, there may be value in the sigs though</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">see John's =
simplification suggestion at [1].</span></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div>If they don=E2=80=99t have DNSSEC, what=E2=80=99s =
the point of saying the domains are related anyway? &nbsp; What are the =
security properties of such an assertion when the content of the zones =
can=E2=80=99t be validated?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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Am 25.02.19 um 21:38 schrieb Brotman, Alexander:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brotman-rdbd/

Hello @all,

I read the draft. Interesting idea ...

page 3: s/namess/names/

page 3: "sample TXT record for the parent domain..."
why should the record contain a "s=2018a". Isn't the selector name already defined by the label itself?

6.2. a.com->b.com->c.com->a.com
isn't it better using the example domain? "a.example -> b.example -> c.example -> a.example"

is there a reason that loops only *SHOULD* end after 3 lookups?
SPF for example has a *hard* limit of 10 lookups (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7208#section-4.6.4)

Page 6 / example:
"The published record would be: ..."
I'm missing the label *where* this record would be published.

Just an idea: is this something we could work on during the IETF 104 hackathon?

Andeas


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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [art]  [dbound] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Cc: "art@ietf.org" <art@ietf.org>,
 "Brotman, Alexander" <Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com>,
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Subject: Re: [art] [DNSOP] [dbound] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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Answering two for the price of one...

On 27/02/2019 17:26, John R. Levine wrote:>> new signatures), I myself
only copped on that this could
>> be of some use where the primary has DNSSEC but where the
>> secondary doesn't, which is maybe interesting.
>
> In that case, the primary can just publish pointers to the secondaries,=

> and we're done.
>
> The DKIM-like signatures have an odd model where the primary has enough=

> control over its DNS to publish the validation key, and enough to give
> the secondaries signed records for their names they can publish that
> point back to that key, but not enough just to publish the secondaries'=

> names directly.  I don't get it.

That could work, but'd mean the primary having to store
all the records and an extra lookup if even if you had the
public key cached. I believe the former could be an issue
if there are many secondaries, at least according to one
chat I had with someone involved with many domains (which
I'm not). I think the design in our -00 is a bit better
than that, but not hugely better and it's ok we can disagree
about it - if this goes somewhere there'll be plenty of
time to thrash it out as we go.

On 27/02/2019 18:38, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Feb 27, 2019, at 10:57 AM, Stephen Farrell=20
> <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>> Yep. After both domains have DNSSEC, then this could all be=20
>> simpler. Before they do, there may be value in the sigs though see=20
>> John's simplification suggestion at [1].
>=20
> If they don=E2=80=99t have DNSSEC, what=E2=80=99s the point of saying t=
he domains
> are related anyway?   What are the security properties of such an=20
> assertion when the content of the zones can=E2=80=99t be validated?

The point of making the assertion would be in the eye of the
beholder. The level of confidence one might have in such an
assertion (without DNSSEC) should of course be lower. But we
do work without DNSSEC for almost everything today so I'm
not convinced "no DNSSEC" =3D> can't be done here. (And again,
the use-cases we've discussed are not high-security ones.)

FWIW, I am a fan of DNSSEC, deploy it for domains I control,
and do consider that despite it's gnarliness it provides
real benefits. But I don't believe we can seriously require
it as a pre-requisite for almost anything today, and nor do
I believe that our proposal, if it goes ahead would by itself
cause people to deploy DNSSEC. So ISTM that making DNSSEC a
MUST-use isn't the right approach in this case.

Cheers,
S.


>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________ art mailing list=20
> art@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art
>=20

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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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From nobody Wed Feb 27 18:03:45 2019
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From: "John Levine" <johnl@taugh.com>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [art]  [dbound] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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In article <249a56b6-7bf6-d1e3-2639-0f2d8043aa3e@cs.tcd.ie> you write:
>> point back to that key, but not enough just to publish the secondaries'
>> names directly.  I don't get it.
>
>That could work, but'd mean the primary having to store
>all the records and an extra lookup if even if you had the
>public key cached. I believe the former could be an issue
>if there are many secondaries, at least according to one
>chat I had with someone involved with many domains (which
>I'm not).

Well, OK, if that's an issue you spread the names out like we did with
VBR.  If the primary is foo.com and the secondary is bar.org:

bar.org._same.foo.com. SAME .	; yes, we're a primary for whatever name that was

_same.bar.org. SAME foo.com. ; yes, we're secondary for foo.com.

This makes it somewhat more difficult to scrape all the secondaries
for a primary which may be a feature.

R's,
John


From nobody Wed Feb 27 18:17:38 2019
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To: dbound@ietf.org, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, art@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org
References: <20190228020332.D2112200F6CEC9@ary.local>
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Message-ID: <7af62833-8ec7-df92-9241-1f8ce92b0d9a@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 02:17:04 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/H4_rPDMR09oWQSv3jI3rg0rzpIs>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [dbound] [art]  Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
To: dbound@ietf.org, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, art@ietf.org,
 dnsop@ietf.org
Message-ID: <7af62833-8ec7-df92-9241-1f8ce92b0d9a@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [dbound] [art] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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In-Reply-To: <20190228020332.D2112200F6CEC9@ary.local>

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Hiya,

On 28/02/2019 02:03, John Levine wrote:
> Well, OK, if that's an issue you spread the names out like we did with
> VBR.  If the primary is foo.com and the secondary is bar.org:
>=20
> bar.org._same.foo.com. SAME .	; yes, we're a primary for whatever name =
that was
>=20
> _same.bar.org. SAME foo.com. ; yes, we're secondary for foo.com.
>=20
> This makes it somewhat more difficult to scrape all the secondaries
> for a primary which may be a feature.

Yep, that could work. I still prefer the design in our
-00 though (sorry:-) as in your scheme here foo.com's zone
will have to change with every change in a linkage whereas
in the -00 design, changes are only needed in each of the
bar.org zones that actually do change. (I think the counter
to that might relate to difficulty in synchronising changes
to keys/selectors in our -00 design which can have unexpected
effects as we saw in the case of DKIM and a particular mail
corpus leak in 2016;-).

To be clear: for my purposes I'd be ok with various of the
designs we've been discussing - even if I think some are
better than others, they're nearly equally ok. I think the
main thing is to try keep it simple (as you've been doing)
and to try find out if people might publish such values
(absent which, there's no much point in publishing an RFC).

Cheers,
S.

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From nobody Wed Feb 27 18:26:09 2019
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Date: 27 Feb 2019 21:26:01 -0500
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.21.1902272123390.3497@ary.local>
From: "John R Levine" <johnl@taugh.com>
Reply-To: dbound@ietf.org
To: "Stephen Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Cc: dbound@ietf.org, art@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/8sP0NL_VtgYAh8HgZtSr1S60hHM>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [dbound] [art]  Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft
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On Thu, 28 Feb 2019, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>> bar.org._same.foo.com. SAME .	; yes, we're a primary for whatever name that was
>> _same.bar.org. SAME foo.com. ; yes, we're secondary for foo.com.

> Yep, that could work. I still prefer the design in our
> -00 though (sorry:-) as in your scheme here foo.com's zone
> will have to change with every change in a linkage whereas
> in the -00 design, changes are only needed in each of the
> bar.org zones that actually do change. (I think the counter
> to that might relate to difficulty in synchronising changes
> to keys/selectors in our -00 design which can have unexpected
> effects as we saw in the case of DKIM and a particular mail
> corpus leak in 2016;-).

Sure, but pick your poison.  With your scheme you need a mutant DKIM 
signer at the primary and a way to send the result to the secondary.  With 
mine, you just add a record.  I realize that one or the other may be 
easier depending on where an organization's processes are broken but it's 
not obvious to me that the more complex design has an easier process.

Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly


From nobody Thu Feb 28 07:13:15 2019
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From: "Peter van Dijk" <peter.van.dijk@powerdns.com>
To: dnsop@ietf.org
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 16:13:15 +0100
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Last Call: <draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update-05.txt> (Algorithm Implementation Requirements and Usage Guidance for DNSSEC) to Proposed Standard
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On 13 Feb 2019, at 20:29, The IESG wrote:

> The IESG has received a request from the Domain Name System Operations 
> WG
> (dnsop) to consider the following document: - 'Algorithm 
> Implementation
> Requirements and Usage Guidance for DNSSEC'
>   <draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update-05.txt> as Proposed Standard
>
> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits 
> final
> comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
> ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2019-02-27. Exceptionally, comments may 
> be
> sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the 
> beginning of
> the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

As this pertains to a section that will apparently be removed for 
publication, only posting it here on dnsop@ for historical reasons:

PowerDNS has removed all GOST support as of version 4.2, which is due to 
be released any day now, so please change that cell in section 6.1 to N.

Kind regards,
-- 
Peter van Dijk
PowerDNS.COM BV - https://www.powerdns.com/


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From: "Peter J. Philipp" <pjp@centroid.eu>
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Subject: [DNSOP] RFC 2845bis draft
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Hi,

I'm in contact with the original RFC 2845 authors for clarifications on 
what is meant in section 4.4 for the meaning of "Prior MAC (running)".Â  
In the bis draft this is in section 6.4 and seems unchanged.Â  I'm having 
a hard time understanding this as an implementor, this is an area that 
needs clarification I believe.

Would you like to see any results that I glean from the authors so that 
this can be put on the bis draft?

Best Regards,

-peter


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From: "Peter J. Philipp" <pjp@centroid.eu>
To: dnsop@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RFC 2845bis draft
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Hi again,

Well I ended up fixing it myself yesterday through a lot of trial and 
error and finally understanding the

RFC.Â  I recommend the following change to make it easier for future 
implementors in the 2845bis draft:

Section 6.4 says:

The first envelope is processed as a standard answer, and subsequent 
messages have the following digest components:

I would rewrite that as:

The first envelope is processed as a standard answer (see section 6.2), 
and subsequent messages have the following digest components:

With the referal to section 6.2, a hasty eye can catch what a "standard 
answer" is and assumptions are left out.

BTW I'm working with this draft document:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc2845bis/?include_text=1

Best Regards,

-peter


On 2/27/19 9:21 AM, Peter J. Philipp wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm in contact with the original RFC 2845 authors for clarifications 
> on what is meant in section 4.4 for the meaning of "Prior MAC 
> (running)".Â  In the bis draft this is in section 6.4 and seems 
> unchanged.Â  I'm having a hard time understanding this as an 
> implementor, this is an area that needs clarification I believe.
>
> Would you like to see any results that I glean from the authors so 
> that this can be put on the bis draft?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> -peter
>


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From: =?UTF-8?B?w5NsYWZ1ciBHdcOwbXVuZHNzb24=?= <olafur@cloudflare.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 10:32:03 -0800
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--0000000000006039eb0582f882ce
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I think this is a good clarification
Olafur


On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 8:53 AM Peter J. Philipp <pjp@centroid.eu> wrote:

> Hi again,
>
> Well I ended up fixing it myself yesterday through a lot of trial and
> error and finally understanding the
>
> RFC.  I recommend the following change to make it easier for future
> implementors in the 2845bis draft:
>
> Section 6.4 says:
>
> The first envelope is processed as a standard answer, and subsequent
> messages have the following digest components:
>
> I would rewrite that as:
>
> The first envelope is processed as a standard answer (see section 6.2),
> and subsequent messages have the following digest components:
>
> With the referal to section 6.2, a hasty eye can catch what a "standard
> answer" is and assumptions are left out.
>
> BTW I'm working with this draft document:
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc2845bis/?include_tex=
t=3D1
>
> Best Regards,
>
> -peter
>
>
> On 2/27/19 9:21 AM, Peter J. Philipp wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm in contact with the original RFC 2845 authors for clarifications
> > on what is meant in section 4.4 for the meaning of "Prior MAC
> > (running)".  In the bis draft this is in section 6.4 and seems
> > unchanged.  I'm having a hard time understanding this as an
> > implementor, this is an area that needs clarification I believe.
> >
> > Would you like to see any results that I glean from the authors so
> > that this can be put on the bis draft?
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > -peter
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>


--=20
=C3=93lafur Gudmundsson | Engineering Director
www.cloudflare.com blog.cloudflare.com

--0000000000006039eb0582f882ce
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>I think this is a good clarification=C2=A0<div>Olafur<=
/div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" c=
lass=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 8:53 AM Peter J. Philipp &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:pjp@centroid.eu">pjp@centroid.eu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi again,<br>
<br>
Well I ended up fixing it myself yesterday through a lot of trial and <br>
error and finally understanding the<br>
<br>
RFC.=C2=A0 I recommend the following change to make it easier for future <b=
r>
implementors in the 2845bis draft:<br>
<br>
Section 6.4 says:<br>
<br>
The first envelope is processed as a standard answer, and subsequent <br>
messages have the following digest components:<br>
<br>
I would rewrite that as:<br>
<br>
The first envelope is processed as a standard answer (see section 6.2), <br=
>
and subsequent messages have the following digest components:<br>
<br>
With the referal to section 6.2, a hasty eye can catch what a &quot;standar=
d <br>
answer&quot; is and assumptions are left out.<br>
<br>
BTW I&#39;m working with this draft document:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc2845bis/?in=
clude_text=3D1" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc2845bis/?include_text=3D1</a><br>
<br>
Best Regards,<br>
<br>
-peter<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2/27/19 9:21 AM, Peter J. Philipp wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;m in contact with the original RFC 2845 authors for clarificatio=
ns <br>
&gt; on what is meant in section 4.4 for the meaning of &quot;Prior MAC <br=
>
&gt; (running)&quot;.=C2=A0 In the bis draft this is in section 6.4 and see=
ms <br>
&gt; unchanged.=C2=A0 I&#39;m having a hard time understanding this as an <=
br>
&gt; implementor, this is an area that needs clarification I believe.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Would you like to see any results that I glean from the authors so <br=
>
&gt; that this can be put on the bis draft?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Best Regards,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -peter<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DNSOP mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DNSOP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">DNSOP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">=C3=93lafur Gudmundsson |=C2=A0=
<span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Engineering Director=C2=A0</span><div><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><a href=3D"http://www.cloudflare.com" target=
=3D"_blank">www.cloudflare.com</a> <a href=3D"http://blog.cloudflare.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">blog.cloudflare.com</a></span></div></div></div>

--0000000000006039eb0582f882ce--


From nobody Thu Feb 28 14:03:07 2019
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From: Brian Weis <bew.stds@gmail.com>
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Subject: [DNSOP] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dnsop-algorithm-update-06
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Reviewer: Brian Weis
Review result: Ready

I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing
effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These comments
were written primarily for the benefit of the security area directors. Document
editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last call
comments.

This document specifies updated DNSSEC algorithm recommendations. It includes
updates on DNSKEY, DS and CDS algorithms. The recommendations are similar to
the methodology defined for IPSec algorithm recommendations, which have been
useful to implementors and users.

The actual algorithm recommendations (MUST, RECOMMENDED, NOT RECOMMENDED, MAY,
MUST NOT) are in line with current general algorithm guidance, and match the
goals set forth in the document. I make no further comment on them as the
details of the recommendations have likely to have been finely honed through
debate within the working group.

I believe the document is ready to publish.

