Subject: [edu-team] linking pointers to various generic documents from the edu site?

From: Radia Perlman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 13:38:42 -0500

Stephen Farrell commented that at the IESG breakfast people were
complaining that document authors often don't understand the use of MUST,
SHOULD, MUST NOT.  Just because it's clearly defined in some RFC
(2119) doesn't mean that people know about it, or remember it.  Stephen
suggested that edu might be helpful for keeping this sort of information in
people's consciousnesses; ideally, all IETFers, but probably sufficient if
it's just WG chairs.

A pointer to RFC 2119, along with pointers to other helpful RFCs, is
included in the WG leadership tutorial:

http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/group/edu/wiki/IETF85
on slide 10

However, to find it, people would have to find the slides for the tutorial
(or better yet, of course, attend), and skim through it.  That's easy
enough if you remember that it's there.

But perhaps it might be nice to have that information directly on the edu
page?  Maybe we can think of other information that would be good to have
there?

I checked through the slides for the WG Leadership tutorial, and it is very
well organized and clear.  However, I'm not surprised if people might not
know to look there.  And maybe document authors might neither think of
themselves as "newcomers" or "WG chairs", so might not think either
tutorial is relevant to them (though the WG chair ought to at least skim
through the documents and notice incorrect usage and give feedback to the
authors).

So, would having useful information like that summarized in one place on
the edu site perhaps make things easier?

And an orthogonal thought....lots of people said they wanted the slides to
my tutorial but couldn't find them.  Indeed if you know to type "
edu.ietf.org" they're easy to find, but could we make the slides for the
tutorials be directly linked from the titles of the tutorials on the HTML
version of the agenda, perhaps?

Just a thought...

Radia

---

From: Margaret Wasserman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 13:43:06 -0500

We might ask Scott Bradner (who wrote RFC 2119) to do a presentation on keywords in a WG chairs lunch.  I think that might be useful, especially if Scott also talked about when it is and is not reasonable to use RFC 2119 language at all.

Margaret

On Nov 6, 2012, at 1:38 PM, Radia Perlman wrote:

> Stephen Farrell commented that at the IESG breakfast people were complaining that document authors often don't understand the use of MUST, SHOULD, MUST NOT.  Just because it's clearly defined in some RFC (2119) doesn't mean that people know about it, or remember it.  Stephen suggested that edu might be helpful for keeping this sort of information in people's consciousnesses; ideally, all IETFers, but probably sufficient if it's just WG chairs.
>  
>  
> A pointer to RFC 2119, along with pointers to other helpful RFCs, is included in the WG leadership tutorial:
>  
> However, to find it, people would have to find the slides for the tutorial (or better yet, of course, attend), and skim through it.  That's easy enough if you remember that it's there.
>  
> But perhaps it might be nice to have that information directly on the edu page?  Maybe we can think of other information that would be good to have there?
>  
> I checked through the slides for the WG Leadership tutorial, and it is very well organized and clear.  However, I'm not surprised if people might not know to look there.  And maybe document authors might neither think of themselves as "newcomers" or "WG chairs", so might not think either tutorial is relevant to them (though the WG chair ought to at least skim through the documents and notice incorrect usage and give feedback to the authors).
>  
> So, would having useful information like that summarized in one place on the edu site perhaps make things easier?
>  
> And an orthogonal thought....lots of people said they wanted the slides to my tutorial but couldn't find them.  Indeed if you know to type "edu.ietf.org" they're easy to find, but could we make the slides for the tutorials be directly linked from the titles of the tutorials on the HTML version of the agenda, perhaps?
>  
> Just a thought...
>  
> Radia
>  
>  
> _______________________________________________
> edu-team mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-team

---

From: Margaret Wasserman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 13:55:13 -0500

Oh, I didn't realize that Stephen (or you) were volunteering to do the presentation.  That would be fine, too!

Margaret

On Nov 6, 2012, at 1:53 PM, Pete Resnick wrote:

> Stephen and I were suggesting that some IESG people (in particular, he and I) would be interested in doing the presentation. :-)
> 
> pr
> 
> On 11/6/12 1:43 PM, Margaret Wasserman wrote:
> 
> -- 
> Pete Resnick <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
> Qualcomm Technologies, Inc. - +1 (858)651-4478

---

From: Radia Perlman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 14:04:06 -0500

In the spirit of my belief that information sticks better if presented
humorously...how about a presentation that gives examples of misuse of the
terminology? If you read 2119, it's tempting to think...yeah...yeah...it's
obvious, and not bother thinking about it.

And especially if this could be expanded into other topics in the same
vein, it might make a really nice plenary talk, or something.

Radia

On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Margaret Wasserman <[email-masked]>wrote:

>  Stephen and I were suggesting that some IESG people (in particular, he
> and I) would be interested in doing the presentation. :-)
>
> pr
>
> We might ask Scott Bradner (who wrote RFC 2119) to do a presentation on
> keywords in a WG chairs lunch.  I think that might be useful, especially if
> Scott also talked about when it is and is not reasonable to use RFC 2119
> language at all.
>
>  Margaret
>
> I checked through the slides for the WG Leadership tutorial, and it is
> very well organized and clear.  However, I'm not surprised if people might
> not know to look there.  And maybe document authors might neither think of
> Pete Resnick <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/> <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>

---

From: Mirjam Kuehne <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 10:46:52 +0100

Hi,

Are you suggesting to present this topic at the next IETF meting?

Margaret, you had offered earlier to present the "WG chairs portion of 
the datatracker" at the next WG chairs lunch. Shall we push this to IETF 
87 then?

Radia, I think it is a good idea to publish some other useful 
information the edu team pages. We could create another section on 
http://www.ietf.org/edu where we could collect such information. Do you 
want to work on this together with the secretariat?

Regarding your slides, I asked the secretariat to include them in the 
list of tutorials on the edu team pages (but I don't think that has been 
done yet) and they are also on the wiki. I can ask the secretariat to 
also link them directly from the Tutorials page on the meeting page from 
now on: http://www.ietf.org/meeting/85/tutorials.html

if you think that's where people are looking for them.

Cheers,
Mirjam

On 6/11/12 8:04 PM, Radia Perlman wrote:
> humorously...how about a presentation that gives examples of misuse of
> the terminology? If you read 2119, it's tempting to
> think...yeah...yeah...it's obvious, and not bother thinking about it.
> On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Margaret Wasserman
> <[email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
>
>
>     Oh, I didn't realize that Stephen (or you) were volunteering to do
>     the presentation.  That would be fine, too!
>
>     Margaret
>
>>     Stephen and I were suggesting that some IESG people (in
>>     particular, he and I) would be interested in doing the
>>     presentation. :-)
>>
>>     pr
>>
>>>     We might ask Scott Bradner (who wrote RFC 2119) to do a
>>>     presentation on keywords in a WG chairs lunch.  I think that
>>>     might be useful, especially if Scott also talked about when it is
>>>     and is not reasonable to use RFC 2119 language at all.
>>>
>>>     Margaret
>>>
>>>>     complaining that document authors often don't understand the use
>>>>     of MUST, SHOULD, MUST NOT.  Just because it's clearly defined in
>>>>     some RFC (2119) doesn't mean that people know about it, or
>>>>     remember it. Stephen suggested that edu might be helpful for
>>>>     keeping this sort of information in people's consciousnesses;
>>>>     ideally, all IETFers, but probably sufficient if it's just WG
>>>>     chairs.
>>>>     A pointer to RFC 2119, along with pointers to other helpful
>>>>     RFCs, is included in the WG leadership tutorial:
>>>>     However, to find it, people would have to find the slides for
>>>>     the tutorial (or better yet, of course, attend), and skim
>>>>     through it. That's easy enough if you remember that it's there.
>>>>     But perhaps it might be nice to have that information directly
>>>>     on the edu page?  Maybe we can think of other information that
>>>>     would be good to have there?
>>>>     I checked through the slides for the WG Leadership tutorial, and
>>>>     it is very well organized and clear.  However, I'm not surprised
>>>>     if people might not know to look there.  And maybe document
>>>>     authors might neither think of themselves as "newcomers" or "WG
>>>>     chairs", so might not think either tutorial is relevant to them
>>>>     (though the WG chair ought to at least skim through the
>>>>     documents and notice incorrect usage and give feedback to the
>>>>     authors).
>>>>     So, would having useful information like that summarized in one
>>>>     place on the edu site perhaps make things easier?
>>>>     And an orthogonal thought....lots of people said they wanted the
>>>>     slides to my tutorial but couldn't find them.  Indeed if you
>>>>     know to type "edu.ietf.org <http://edu.ietf.org/>" they're easy
>>>>     to find, but could we make the slides for the tutorials be
>>>>     directly linked from the titles of the tutorials on the HTML
>>>>     [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>
>>     Pete Resnick<http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>  <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
>>     Qualcomm Technologies, Inc. -+1 (858)651-4478  <tel:%2B1%20%28858%29651-4478>
>
>
>
>