Subject: Re: Another dumb idea...

From: Vernon Schryver <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:30:20 -0700 (MST)

> I was thinking about something along the lines of:
>
>   The acronym 'TCP' is short for: (pick one)
>     * Transfer Control Protocol
>     * Transmission Coordination Program
>     * Total Control Process
>     * Transmission Control Protocol
>     * Terminal Control Protocol
>     * Terminally Cool People
>
> ;-)

That example test exemplifies the problems of such testing.

Regardless of the value of the work, who besides a go-er would be willing
to act as such a bouncer/test-giver, or be willing to spend the time acting
as a bouncer instead of talking about the real technical stuff?

It's an odd fact of nature that active go-ers are more likely than useful
contributors to remember the words behind acronyms.  You tend to not pay
attention to the title page of an RFC you first saw 15 years ago, you
never use the full title of the protocol, and so you tend to forget what
the acronym means.  Consider also that firmly superficial interests are
a good summary of what distinguishes a noisy go-er from a useful
contributor.  What is more superficial than the words behind "T-C-P"?

The only solution to the IETF meeting size is to accept the fact that the
IETF meetings are inevitably (albeit slowly) recapituating the evolution
of the Spring/Fall Joint Computer Conferences, InterOp, and the others.
It can't be long before hotels hosting the IETF meetings realize that they
could make some money by arranging an accidentally coincident tradeshow
nearby, so that vendors could demonstrate stuff.  The hardware behind the
terminal room and wireless support is the camel's nose well inside the
tent.

Except for the kooks, the mailinglists still work and are effective.
Accept the full implications of the IETF dogma that the mailinglists are
supposed be the authoritative forums, and that the meetings are merely
for bursts of negotiations that are later validated on the mailinglists.
If you don't like crowds, then do as I do, and remain entirely virtual.

Vernon Schryver    [email-masked]

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From: Lloyd Wood <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:30:57 +0000 (GMT)

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Vernon Schryver wrote:
> Martin Hamilton wrote:

that's the main problem. If you want to organise an effective
professional conference, you need to hire security people to do that
sort of thing, rather than reinvent conference mechanics and
everything else from scratch on this list. 

> attention to the title page of an RFC you first saw 15 years ago,

back when RFCs had title pages, I presume...

> you
> the acronym means.

Confine the lists to new acronyms that have been recently defined. 
MPLS, diff-serv etc are full of these; with e.g. the NAT wg you could
ask for concise definitions of twice-NAT etc.

> Consider also that firmly superficial interests are

the uses that it is increasingly put to.

I've seen e.g. Wired News[*] journalists recently claim that text is
written in 'ASCCI' and confuse bps and baud among other errors; 
eliminating journalists from meets may be a beneficial side-effect of
this simple testing approach. 

L.

[*] Not Wired, now an entirely separate organisation.

<[email-masked]>PGP<http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/>

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From: Lloyd Wood <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:30:57 +0000 (GMT)

L.

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From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 10:07:51 -0500

From:  Vernon Schryver <[email-masked]>
Date:  Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:30:20 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id:  <[email-masked]>
To:  [email-masked]

>...

I don't accept this.  The IETF/host contract with the hotel and can
certainly do so in such a way as to keep out other tenants.  I have
not been involved in any IETF facilities negotiation but I have for
other events, and it is certainly possible in many cases to block all
the function rooms for you primary occupancy period.  (It is fequently
useful to make up fake event/tracks to schedule into rooms you do not
have an initial purpose for.  Last minute things will often crop up to
use them.)

The terminal room and wireless support situtation seems quite stable
and I think its pretty reasonable to give some publicity in return for
supplying equipment and support.  (In fact, in some cases, the
performance of the equipment and what the attendees learned therefrom
has not been entirely positive :-) )

However, I would actually advocate the addition of a limited retail
concession to sell extension cords, floppy disks, and perhaps one or
two other commodity items that people frequently need and have
forgotten to bring...

>...

Thanks,
Donald

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From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 10:07:51 -0500

Thanks,
Donald

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From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:53:01 -0600

>I don't accept this.  The IETF/host contract with the hotel and can

I don't either.  In fact, the fantasy scenario which postulates parallel
conferences at the same time and place is first without precedent and
second unlikely, never mind the fact that we could easily prevent them.

In any event, 

Having more attendees is not the probem.

Having facilities that don't accomodate the number of attendees is a problem.

Having chairs who are not trained to handle larger meetings is a problem.

Let's focus on the problems and not the artifacts.

d/

>supplying equipment and support.  (In fact, in some cases, the

yup.

>concession to sell extension cords, floppy disks, and perhaps one or

yup.

d/

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From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:53:01 -0600

In any event, 

d/

yup.

yup.

d/

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From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:47:12 +0000

Those who were at the Montreal IETF know that we did share the
facility with another related conference (INET) and I suppose
there was a trade show too, although I didn't have time to look
for it.

The instant resolution of the organisers was "we'll never do that
again" and I don't see any difficulty in sticking to that.

I forget what the problem is. The meetings in Orlando seemed
to go very well, except that we were lucky no fire marshalls
looked in. 

   Brian

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From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:47:12 +0000

Brian

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From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:32:25 -0600

>there was a trade show too, although I didn't have time to look

oops.  yes.  I forgot.  I was focussing on the idea of a truly independent
event trying to ride our coat-tails, rather than an entirely cooperative
venture.

(I do recall, however, that Don Heath queried the audience, towards the
end.  The strong consensus was that it had been an interesting experiment.
Even stronger was the consensus that it NOT be repeated -- that was
audience consensus, not just organizers.)

>to go very well, except that we were lucky no fire marshalls

The problem in Montreal, I believe, was simply the confusion of conflicting
agendas.

The problems in Orlando were rooms too small, too often, and hallways that
were entirely too narrow all the time, for an IETF style of roaming and
chatting.

d/

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From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:32:25 -0600

d/

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From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:32:25 -0600

d/

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From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:32:25 -0600

d/