Subject: Re: Source Format of RFCs

From: Robert Elz <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 05:30:59 +1100

It has been most "amusing" to suddenly find myself reading a week's worth
of IETF mail, and find it has been dominated by this topic, all over again.

These discussions never change (except in minor detail).   Most people will
accept that something better than ascii might be nice to have (a few will
proclaim that anything more than ascii is necessarily bad).

Then there's the discussion of what should (could) replace ascii.   The
interesting thing here is that the most preferred suggested replacement is
always this new "not quite ready yet, but everyone will be using it in
6 months" format, that at the time of the discussion very few people have
actually used enough to be able to see all the pitfalls.   By the time
that a format is truly widespread, almost no-one wants it, because all of its
warts are then visible.

Ascii is nice because we know its warts, we have long practice in dealing
with them, and we have learned how to cope.

Could we please attempt to avoid having this discussion again until we have
a format in genuine widespread use which has demonstrably less problems
than ascii has?

kre

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From: Tripp Lilley <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:36:36 -0500 (EST)

> of IETF mail, and find it has been dominated by this topic, all over again.

[snip]

> a format in genuine widespread use which has demonstrably less problems

I have admitted my "IETF youth" in private email on more than one
occasion. Usually, it's prompted by someone either gently or hotly flaming
me for failing to be aware of the fact that "we've had this discussion
before, and nothing's new this time".

Now, I understand quite well that I could "read the archives". However, as
I said, I'm "young", and I'd like to keep it that way :-) Have you
/looked/ at the archives? They're /huge/! Besides, there's way to much
kook-cruft to wade through.

But enough whining. I have a proposal. There are enough of you out there
who have been around, and have seen these topics go by time and time
again. Would you consider taking a little bit of time at the next meeting
(say, a half-hour BOF?) and get together to list all of the "overdone"
topics that you've seen go by, both on the IETF general list, and on the
various working group lists?

For that list, just give a few key phrases, or key voices, and pointers
to the various list archives mentioned, so that we can effectively search
the lists for this history. I may be alone in my willingness to do so, but
I'll certainly read and listen to what's been said before. Unless I have
something (I believe) substantive to add to what was once said, I'll keep
my trap shut.

Of course, I'm conveniently exempt from having to work on this project,
since I, by definition, don't have the necessary experience :-) But I will
certainly volunteer to take whatever output such a BOF generates and clean
it up for presentation. Heck, it would even make a good Informational RFC
:-)

And, think about it... wouldn't it be nice to say "read the FAQ!" every
time someone threatens to start up such a discussion again? :-)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tripp Lilley, Innovative Workflow Engineering, Inc. ([email-masked])
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
         "Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow" -- Linus's Law

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From: Tripp Lilley <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:36:36 -0500 (EST)

[snip]