Subject: Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??

From: Bob Braden <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 20:13:01 -0700 (PDT)

*> From [email-masked] Wed Jul  5 08:58:47 2000
  *> To: "Parkinson, Jonathan" <[email-masked]>
  *> cc: "[email-masked]'" <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
  *> Subject: Re: Is WAP mobile Internet??
  *> In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jul 2000 15:15:13 BST." <[email-masked]>
  *> Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 16:19:23 +0100
  *> From: Jon Crowcroft <[email-masked]>
  *> X-Loop: [email-masked]
  *> Content-Length: 3148
  *> X-Lines: 95
  *> 
  *> 
  *> In message <[email-masked]>, 
  *> "Parkinson, Jonathan" typed:
  *> 
  *>  >>I disagree, WAP, Wireless Application Protocol, Its a way of transmitting
  *>  >>data I.E. to and from the Web. How does this not fall under the Internet
  *>  >>Umbrella ?
  *> 

Jon Postel would have said: If it speaks IP (UDP/TCP are not
necessary), then it's Internet, else not.

However, during the 1980s the IAB tried to float the concept of an
extended Internet defined by email connectivity.

Bob Braden

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From: George Michaelson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 13:44:39 +1000

I thought part of the argument was about capitalization of the I. if its
lowercase, then its using IP, if its uppercase then you can expect to use
global Internet addresses and achieve a substantive amount of end-to-end
connectivity. Of course, that was before NAT.

Is this different to John Quartermains Matrix definition? Gosh, how
prescient to choose that word...
  
-George

--
George Michaelson         |  DSTC Pty Ltd
Email: [email-masked]    |  University of Qld 4072
Phone: +61 7 3365 4310    |  Australia
  Fax: +61 7 3365 4311    |  http://www.dstc.edu.au

---

From: "Brijesh Kumar" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:25:28 -0400

Bob Braden writes:

> -----Original Message-----
>

I will add a bit to this discussion.

1. A WAP phone without an IP address is not an Internet device. And,
no one claims so.

2. A WAP device can have both IP and non-IP addresses. So a WAP device
could be an Internet device at one time and non-Internet device a bit
later (at least in theory).

3. An IP address is not very useful on most mobile (cellular) devices.
A lot of useful services and applications can be provided without IP
on the wireless devices. That includes sending and receiving mails
to/from the Internet, and limited web browsing via proxy gateways.

4. Wireless web access using IP is already here, but very few bother
to use it. Networks with the ability to handle IP traffic such as CDPD
have traditionally very low (as per my info, under 15% or so) capacity
utilization and just about every network is under utilized, and in big
loss situation, so much for IP access in wireless devices. At the same
time GSM SMS which needs no IP addressing has a tremendous demands. So
go figure out utility and economics of IP addresses in wireless
devices for now.

Cheers,

--brijesh
Ennovate Networks Inc.

---

From: Lloyd Wood <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:28:34 +0100 (BST)

> 1. A WAP phone without an IP address is not an Internet device. And,

apart from the people selling the things. e.g. http://www.bt.com/

'Getoutthere and check out what's happening on the youth scene
 Find out more about our Internet Mobile Phone special offer'.

> time GSM SMS which needs no IP addressing has a tremendous demands.

pretty ironic considering that SMS is a last-minute control-channel
hack, really.

L.

<[email-masked]>PGP<http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/>

---

From: "Stephen Sprunk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 14:57:03 -0500

Thus spake "Brijesh Kumar" <[email-masked]>
> 1. A WAP phone without an IP address is not an Internet device. And,

The telcos who offer WAP service (at least in my town) market it as
"Wireless Internet Access".  They do not advertise it as "wireless
application-proxy-based access to certain web pages", which is what
they're really selling.

> 2. A WAP device can have both IP and non-IP addresses. So a WAP
> device could be an Internet device at one time and non-Internet device
> a bit later (at least in theory).

If it speaks IP, it's Internet.  None of the WAP phones I've used or
seen so far speak IP.

> 3. An IP address is not very useful on most mobile (cellular) devices.

With the current billing model of per-minute connection charges and slow
speeds, it's not useful.  The economics just aren't there for the
consumer.

If the business model were different, it could definitely be useful --
if my laptop had fast, always-on wireless IP access at a reasonable
price, I'd never go to the office.

> to/from the Internet, and limited web browsing via proxy gateways.

Agreed.  Those services are useful, and they can be done without IP --
it's just not Internet.

Let's not forget one of the most significant reasons the Internet was
created was to eliminate the need for network-based application
gateways.  In this context, WAP devices are anti-Internet.

> time GSM SMS which needs no IP addressing has a tremendous
> demands. So go figure out utility and economics of IP addresses in
> wireless devices for now.

See above.

S

     |          |         Stephen Sprunk, K5SSS, CCIE #3723
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