Subject: RE: IETF Meetings - High Registration Fees

From: "Peter Ford" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 10:07:43 -0800

The Usenix annual convention is about the same cost.  I suspect the
O'Reilly Open Source Convention is more.

Corporations already pay for the ietf meetings.  Check out the
registration list.  Corporations are also members and contributors to
ISOC.

Let's assume we took the meeting prices down for specific classes of
individuals by 50%.  Are we saying that the $250/meeting is going to
overcome the barrier of attending?  Let's get real.   I suspect flying
1/3 of the way around the world is a far bigger barrier for most people.
In many ways, the IETF should actually focus on making presence at a
meeting less important.  Things like inexpensive telephone bridge access
to every session with help from the meeting chairs to get words in
edgewise would help.

There is merit is actively sponsoring student participation.  Perhaps we
should be thinking of awards for best contributions, honoraria for
travel, expenses, etc.  

regards, peterf 

N.B. We are talking about IBM, HP, SUN (the new entrant to OSS ?)  and
others when you refer to the OSS guys, aren't we?

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Robinson [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 3:45 AM
To: Bonney Kooper
Cc: Marshall Rose; Joe Touch; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: IETF Meetings - High Registration Fees

On Mar 17, Bonney Kooper <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I think every one missed the point due to my not being
> a bit more precise, and using a very strong word.

I understood your point fine - what I had problems understanding were
the 
responses. For people to come back with arguments like 'Do you know how
much 
the coffee costs?' raised the question 'Do you think the coffee is
critical 
to have at those meetings?'. 

I do appreciate how much it costs to put on a meeting or conference,
especially when it comes to getting reasonable bandwidth into the
building
for a short period of time. However, I remember occasions when reading a
draft and thinking to myself 'this is a *really* bad idea to implement'
and
realising that the only way I was going to get heard was to get to the
next
meetings. Then I realised that (at the time) I was a student, and
couldn't
afford to even pay the door fee, never mind the flights.

These days I'm a bit more flush with the old moolah, and the primary
problem 
I have in attending is time not money. However, the costs are MASSIVELY 
prohibitive for individuals. In a time when OSes and user experience are

becoming increasingly controlled by the individual's involvement in open

source software, I find it strange that the IETF is effectively actively

discouraging individual participation, and concerns itself mostly with 
staying good chums with the larger corporate entities.

Membership of the IETF is set to the correct price - free - and nobody 
expects conferences to also be run for free. However, the tiering system

Bonney is talking about is likely to have two positive effects for the
IETF 
process:

1. More money will be raised - Cisco et al are going to send their
people 
regardless, and the point where they do not see it as being economically

viable to do so is going to be quite high

2. Individual participation will increase, and therefore the quality of
the 
protocols, rafts and RFCs will increase. Would the IETF rather be
pushing 
through some standard that one manufacturer really wants for their new 
router line-up, or input on a broad range of protocols from the people
who 
maintain the network protocol stacks in
Linux/FreeBSD/OpenBSD/NetBSD/etc. 
with the emphasis being on open, secure, reliable systems?

OK, I'm biased, I'm with the OSS guys, but surely somebody can see my
point. 
It's not about trying to push away the corporates, it's about trying to 
create a level playing field. I, for one, completely agree with adopting
a 
tiering system.

-- 
Paul Robinson

---

From: Thor Harald Johansen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:44:57 +0100 (CET)

> should be thinking of awards for best contributions, honoraria for

How can I participate in an IETF meeting? I'm a student, so money is
short. ;) Is it possible to "be there" electronically?
-- 
Thor Harald Johansen

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 11:10:15 -0500

> short. ;) Is it possible to "be there" electronically?

I've never been spotted at an IETF meeting.  In fact, I think I've only
ever been spotted in person by about 10 people who ever *have* attended
IETF meetings.  OK.. Maybe 20. ;)  And those who *have* met me also know
that I *will* travel several time zones if something is happening that my
presence is useful - I've just never made it to an IETF because there's
never been a draft that needed my in-person discussion...

Before you ask "how", ask "why".
-- 
				Valdis Kletnieks
				Computer Systems Senior Engineer
				Virginia Tech