Subject: Critique vs Criticism - Plenary comments

From: Michael StJohns <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:11:18 -0400

Folks -

I want to make a further comment about tonight's discussion about the site 
and site logistics.  I'd like to ask all of you to listen to the discussion 
less as a bashing of the local host and the city and people of Vienna, and 
more as I think it was intended - a critique of the site and facilities as 
they relate to serving the needs of the IETF.  The person who started the 
discussion made at least three separate points related to the facilities - 
at no time did he impugn or otherwise denigrate Vienna, the people of 
Vienna, or the local host.

The points were (as near as I remember) - that the geographic separation of 
hotel and meeting facilities was a problem, that there were power issues in 
the rooms both related to the amount and to the location, and that there 
was no water in any of the rooms until the near the end.

We've had meetings with geographic separation before - mostly this causes 
problems in the formation of the usual IETF bar BOFs.  Going back to the 
beginning of the IETF, much of the small group discussion at the IETF has 
taken place after or between the session in and around the bar at the 
conference hotel.  Quite a lot of the ideas which have made it into the 
standards process have started because of the free flow of information and 
the liberal application of two or three beers.  The Bar BOF is a well 
established part of the IETF meeting culture and meetings without an 
obvious place to meet post session have generally been less productive.

The power issues are more properly the purview of the facility (e.g. the 
conference center) coordinator.  Letting the secretariat know about the 
problem is both appropriate and helpful for their evaluation of the 
facility for possible later use.

The lack of water, drinking fountains, cups, etc was frankly painful to 
me.  This was attributed to the policy of the conference facility... maybe 
I'm spoiled, but I found this policy strange and unusual and not applicable 
to any of the other facilities we've met at previously.

I do want to echo Randy Bush and others with thanks to the host for an 
excellent wireless system and network.  I didn't have to fall back once to 
the terminal room, so I can't comment on good/bad there.

Please, let's try and take comments at face value and not treat the people 
making them like they're trying to kick your puppy.

Thanks - Mike

ps - I've been to 55 of the IETF meetings...  I get to comment from time to 
time.

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From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 11:46:58 +0200

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>>>>> "Michael" == Michael StJohns <[email-masked]> writes:
    Michael> and the city and people of Vienna, and more as I think it was
    Michael> intended - a critique of the site and facilities as they relate
    Michael> to serving the needs of the IETF.  The person who started the
    Michael> discussion made at least three separate points related to the
    Michael> facilities - at no time did he impugn or otherwise denigrate
    Michael> Vienna, the people of Vienna, or the local host.

  I want to concur with this.
  I actually have no problem with having my room further from the conference
centre. When there is an official hotel, I find it annoying to not be in
the conference hotel - but with everyone having to travel, it is much
more equitable.

  I found the S-Bahn convenient, cheap and fast. It stopped running
on me Wednesday night (12:30pm exit), but that was okay. I intend to spend
Saturday visiting the end of each line for fun. (Okay, I'm a train nut)

    Michael> We've had meetings with geographic separation before - mostly
    Michael> this causes problems in the formation of the usual IETF bar
    Michael> BOFs.  Going back to the beginning of the IETF, much of the
    Michael> small group discussion at the IETF has taken place after or
    Michael> between the session in and around the bar at the conference
    Michael> hotel.  Quite a lot of the ideas which have made it into the

  So, I want to echo this and emphasis this point. 
  The lack of a bar with nice seats that would be open to reasonable hours
(i.e. midnight) really hurt. Things seemed to close very early downtown,
or at least open places were hard to find.

    Michael> I do want to echo Randy Bush and others with thanks to the host
    Michael> for an excellent wireless system and network.  I didn't have to

  Yes... it just worked. Thank you to Telekom Austria.

]                   At IETF57 in Wien, Austria                  |  firewalls  [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
] [email-masked] http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[
] printk("Just another Debian GNU/Linux using, kernel hacking, security guy");[

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From: Tim Chown <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 10:43:51 +0100

> the conference hotel - but with everyone having to travel, it is much

I think at any IETF there will be some who prefer to sit in a hotel all
week with everything to hand, and others who will prefer to make thir own
(cheaper) booking and explore the city a bit (yes, there was open WLAN in the
city too!).   The San Francisco venue allowed both very well for example.
 
> or at least open places were hard to find.

The Vienna venue "encouraged" us to explore the city :)   But with the U1
line this was quite easy, and a lot of fun.  You could get unlimited metro
travel for 24 Euros for the week, although noone in Vienna ever seemed to
check tickets!  

Regarding late night bars, the Swedenplatz (excuse spelling?) which was 5
stops south on the U1 had many good bars and places to eat open very late, 
well past the last metro, but were also very well served by taxis (which in 
Vienna were quite cheap, less than 10 Euros from anywhere back to my hotel).

I think what some people missed was the ability to buy food or coffee between 
the afternoon and evening session.  I don't quite understand why the bar that
served food and drink and lunchtime was shut in the evening break.   But
that encouraged exploration :)  With the U1 line you had time to get to a
restaurant and back in the break.   But for the "all in one" people who like
the SFO or Minneapolis style hotel it's less well suited.

>   Yes... it just worked. Thank you to Telekom Austria.

Yep :)

Tim