Subject: T-shirts, and some suggestions for future ietf meetings

From: Tony Hansen <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 01:00:09 -0400

I know, this isn't the most important issue in the world. But, I want to 
say that I miss the IETF meeting T-shirts. As confirmed by Harald at 
tonight's plenary, the T-shirts are normally paid for by the sponsor. 
And since we don't have a sponsor here, there was no T-shirt.

The first time in recent years that we almost didn't have a sponsor was 
in Adelaide (IETF 47, March 2000). We got down there, there were 
problems with the original sponsor and lots of scrambling occurred. 
Among the other things that occured was that there was no T-shirt handed 
out when we registered. (Later on in the week, the people who stayed to 
the end of the plenary were surprised with shirts, collared even. But 
that doesn't the affect the rest of the story.)

So, what happened? In true IETF fashion, a bar BOF met, designed a 
T-shirt, and made arrangements with a T-shirt shop a couple of blocks 
from the convention center. Those people who wanted a T-shirt walked 
over there, picked a T-shirt color, put in an order, paid their money, 
and got a shirt a couple of days later. (It's definitely one of my most 
favorite IETF shirts.) I don't know exactly how many people wound up 
ordering their shirt this way, but I know the owner worked numerous 
overtime hours to meet the demand.

A few salient points can be garnered from the above: many people are 
willing to pay extra to get their IETF T-shirt, and there are people who 
are willing to work on T-shirt designs.

In DC, IETF 61, we have a sponsor scheduled. So we'll likely have 
T-shirts. Thank you Alcatel!

Here's a suggestion for IETF 61: modify the registration web page to let 
people specify the size of the T-shirt they'd like to get. Usually, a 
sponsor has to estimate the number of people who want each T-shirt size. 
This leads to overbuys of some sizes and underbuys of other sizes. And 
it leads to some people being dissatisfied with the sizes that they were 
forced to receive.

Continuing this thought, here's a suggestion for the next IETF meeting 
that doesn't have a sponsor, whether it's IETF 62 or some future 
meeting: Take that part of the registration form that asks for T-shirt 
size and add one more choice: none. Then charge the people who pick a 
T-shirt an extra $15 to cover the cost of the shirt, and those that 
don't want it won't pay for it.

Then beforehand, set up a mailing list for those interested in designing 
the shirt, exchanging designs, and picking one out. I'm sure you'll get 
enough takers to do it.

	Tony Hansen
	[email-masked]

_______________________________________________
Ietf mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf

---

From: Hadmut Danisch <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 22:21:36 -0700

> And since we don't have a sponsor here, there was no T-shirt.

Why always T-Shirts? Everyone gives T-Shirts. I have tons of
T-Shirts from conventions and conferences.

Why not anything different at every meeting? Socks, ties, caps, 
jumpers, blousons, jackets, sunglasses, swimsuits, undies...

After attending IETF meetings for 2-3 years you've got a complete 
IETF outfit.

:-)

Hadmut

---

From: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 22:35:27 -0700

Hi,

I agree, but probably is less than $15.

What I don't agree is that we don't have sponsors. That's not true, let's say we don't want to accept sponsors ?

I offered myself for more than two years to host a meeting in Madrid and another one in Barcelona. I've arranged for the sponsors, following the instructions regarding hosting a meeting in the IETF site.

Finally the Secretariat staff visited the proposed venue in Madrid, a very nice hotel 10 minutes from downtown with public transport, and around the same time from the airport. Then confirmed that the venue is the best they have ever seen, not a surprise as this is probably the last big hotel build in Europe (less than 1.5 years ago), with very big meeting rooms and capacity for up to 10.000 people in meetings (enough for us).

The only complain was not being in downtown. Also something about the restaurants nearby, but there are a few at walking distance, and the hotel has enough meeting rooms and kitchens to add as many additional restaurants as tastes we may have !

Now, I'm somehow (very) disappointed, because San Diego is very nice, yes, but we aren't in downtown, we don't have food choices, and is VERY expensive compared to Madrid. So what's going on ?

In Madrid, we have public transport every 10 minutes in the hotel door (yes the door, not away from that), I also offered a free shuttle, and taxis are quite cheap. There is also a free shuttle to the airport (it takes 12-15 minutes).

So it was a kind of excuse ?

By the way, the hotel has free IPv6 connectivity in every room, since we installed it in May 2003 (first one in the world as I know).

I think the venue selection process is somehow obscure and not democratic. But may be is my view only :-(((( ... I already mention this previously in this list, but it seems we don't care. Just wondering if is my wrong perception ?

Regards,
Jordi

PS: And yes, we of course plan to provide a nice t-shirt !

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony Hansen" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 10:00 PM
Subject: T-shirts, and some suggestions for future ietf meetings

> [email-masked]

**********************************
Madrid 2003 Global IPv6 Summit
Presentations and videos on line at:
http://www.ipv6-es.com

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited.

---

From: Jari Arkko <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 09:10:42 +0300

> By the way, the hotel has free IPv6 connectivity in every room, since we installed it in May 2003 (first one in the world as I know).
(snip)
> PS: And yes, we of course plan to provide a nice t-shirt !

OK, I'm convinced. Lets go there as soon as possible.

--Jari

---

From: Tim Chown <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 07:46:32 +0100

> the shirt, exchanging designs, and picking one out. I'm sure you'll get 

Excellent suggestions.

I'd happily pay $15US for a t-shirt, each time, sponsor or no sponsor.

Tim

---

From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:53:38 +0200

> jumpers, blousons, jackets, sunglasses, swimsuits, undies...

Actually I got some Cisco at one of the recent RIPE meetings. ("Behind 
every great network".) This is of course a smart move because most 
people have tons of tshirts so they wear a different one every day. But 
they only have one set of Cisco underpants so they wear those for the 
entire week!

---

From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 11:49:20 -0400

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JORDI" == JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[email-masked]> writes:
    JORDI> The only complain was not being in downtown. Also something
    JORDI> about the restaurants nearby, but there are a few at walking
    JORDI> distance, and the hotel has enough meeting rooms and kitchens
    JORDI> to add as many additional restaurants as tastes we may have !

  Frankly, as long as we can have BAR BOFs in the Hotel, the location of
the food doesn't matter.

  Vienna suffered from having meeting space and hotel seperated, and
unclear default "BAR".  Orlando had the same problem. I've never done
the San Diego hotel, but I know exactly where it is. Definitely not
downtown. 

    JORDI> Now, I'm somehow (very) disappointed, because San Diego is
    JORDI> very nice, yes, but we aren't in downtown, we don't have food
    JORDI> choices, and is VERY expensive compared to Madrid. So what's
    JORDI> going on ?

  I'd like to know this as well.
  Tickets to Madrid in Feb/March are relatively cheap, I think. 
  I don't want to go there in August.

  I'm hoping for Madrid in March 2005, Vancouver in August 2005 (yes, a
host has to be found. Could even be someone from Seattle..), and DC or
Minneapolis in November 2005. 
  (seriously. Both locations work for November very well)

    JORDI> So it was a kind of excuse ?

    JORDI> By the way, the hotel has free IPv6 connectivity in every
    JORDI> room, since we installed it in May 2003 (first one in the
    JORDI> world as I know).

  Cool. Does it have IPv4? It would be cool if it is *didn't* :-)

    JORDI> PS: And yes, we of course plan to provide a nice t-shirt !

  My wife isn't happy that I can go three weeks and wear only conference
T-shirts. Or that I have more cloths than her. I'm happy that they all
still fit. 

- --
]     "Elmo went to the wrong fundraiser" - The Simpson         |  firewalls  [
]   Michael Richardson,    Xelerance Corporation, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
] [email-masked]      http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/mcr/ |device driver[
] panic("Just another Debian GNU/Linux using, kernel hacking, security guy"); [

---

From: "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 11:44:41 -0500

At 01:00 AM 8/6/2004 -0400, Tony Hansen wrote:
>The first time in recent years that we almost didn't have a sponsor was in 
>Adelaide (IETF 47, March 2000).
>
>T-shirt, and made arrangements with a T-shirt shop a couple of blocks from 
>the convention center. Those people who wanted a T-shirt walked over 
>there, picked a T-shirt color, put in an order, paid their money, and got 
>a shirt a couple of days later. (It's definitely one of my most favorite 
>IETF shirts.)

As one of the designers of the T-Shirt (along with Randy Stewart and Peter 
Lei): thanks! I agree. It is the one that I see most often now at meetings. 
There is some pride with that effort, not only that is prevails with folks 
wearing it, but that we actually did it and gave folks choices of colors 
and such.

>I don't know exactly how many people wound up ordering their shirt this way,

well over 1000

>but I know the owner worked numerous overtime hours to meet the demand.

he was sweating - but making money all the way, so he didn't mind at all.

cheers,
James

                                *******************
                 Truth is not to be argued... it is to be presented

---

From: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:13:24 -0700

My response below, in-line.

Regards,
Jordi

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Richardson" <[email-masked]>
To: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: T-shirts, and some suggestions for future ietf meetings

>   Frankly, as long as we can have BAR BOFs in the Hotel, the location of

There is a BAR BOF (actually two), and we can build more if required (enough space and kitchens).

>   Tickets to Madrid in Feb/March are relatively cheap, I think. 

I think they are very cheap all the year ;-)

>   I don't want to go there in August.

Well having the meetings in the hotel, with air condition is not a problem, but is nice July/August because:
1) You want to go out for dinner and have a nice weather
2) You can take the advantage to travel with family or whatever and have vacations afterwards ;-)

>   (seriously. Both locations work for November very well)

If we have a decision RIGHT NOW, I can still try to arrange for March 2005, but timing is becoming VERY tight.

>   Cool. Does it have IPv4? It would be cool if it is *didn't* :-)

Sorry, I can't satisfy 100% your demand here, but I can tell you that the IPv4 connectivity is NATed (and broken because a very nasty Nomadix box).

But of course we can provide public IPv4 addresses for the meeting (unless we decide to make it only IPv6, which I will be happy to do !).

> T-shirts. Or that I have more cloths than her. I'm happy that they all

The solution is to bring your wife and have vacations after the meeting ;-)

By the way, we have a very nice suggestion for the social, if you like art/painting. What about a dinner and private visit to the Prado museum ?

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Finger me for keys
> 
> iQCVAwUBQROofIqHRg3pndX9AQEPRwP+OGe4+kn+vBjUoGst6p1VAfM07WjJRyaR
> cTy0DLSjgggOqoAbSKtXV+HUZ0qiqHC55T0YDKQwYtruwGUB62lhD8nfZKc7tgbk
> q7v4ov/DrTJPuKwAoTU8SwYbB998+CBlBdFBA/ftMXhxu+PR8p7LnN7Ng1ZjOEEQ
> kCXDNlgVN7s=
> =df9A
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>

---

From: Ben Crosby <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:42:13 -0400

Tony,

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try to address some of these with
respect to the Alcatel hosted meeting in Washington DC.

Tony> Here's a suggestion for IETF 61: modify the registration web
Tony> page to let people specify the size of the T-shirt they'd like
Tony> to get. Usually, a sponsor has to estimate the number of people
Tony> who want each T-shirt size. This leads to overbuys of some sizes
Tony> and underbuys of other sizes. And it leads to some people being
Tony> dissatisfied with the sizes that they were forced to receive.

I don't (as host) have any control over the IETF registration process.
I'd happily accept input from the Secretariat, but here are some small
issues:

We need to place our order for approx 2000 t-shirts about three months
before the event. This is to allow for the shirts to be purchased,
printed, and shipped. Unfortunately the registration site doesn't go
live nearly early enough for that information to be collected. One of
my grumbles as an attendee is that the venue information is never
announced early enough either :)

I have solicited input into the size distribution, and not had much
luck with answers, so we're guessing a little. I welcome (short of
1500 seperate emails requesting a specific size) some sensible input
in terms of percentage of each size. Which sizes normally run out ?
Which are forced on you when you arrive late etc ?

Thanks, Ben.

---

From: "Glen Zorn" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 09:37:52 -0700

,,,

>   Frankly, as long as we can have BAR BOFs in the Hotel, the location
> of the food doesn't matter. 
> 
> unclear default "BAR".  Orlando had the same problem. 

Hmm.  As I recall, the meeting space was in the hotel in Orlando.
Perhaps you are thinking of Montreal (though it's hard to believe that
one could confuse the two ;-)?

> I've never done

A $5 cab ride to the Gaslamp district.  Why would you want to go to
downtown S.D.?

...

~gwz

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither..." 
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759

"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless
they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets." 
-- Voltaire

---

From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:57:38 -0400

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "Glen" == Glen Zorn <[email-masked]> writes:

    Glen> Hmm.  As I recall, the meeting space was in the hotel in Orlando.
    Glen> Perhaps you are thinking of Montreal (though it's hard to believe that
    Glen> one could confuse the two ;-)?

  Montreal had that problem as well, and much more accute than Orlando.

  I recall Orlando had no convenient bar. 

    Glen> A $5 cab ride to the Gaslamp district.  Why would you want to go to
    Glen> downtown S.D.?

  That isn't the point. The point is that the hotel bar provides the
*defacto* point to have ad-hoc meetings. I.e. ones where two people just
bump into each other and start chatting.

- --

---

From: Daniel Senie <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:26:31 -0400

>one could confuse the two ;-)?

The hotel in orlando was garden-style with many low-rise buildings. The 
meeting rooms were near the bar, though not right next door.

---

From: shogunx <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:44:38 -0400 (EDT)

We have very nice facilities in Daytona.

> >they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."

sleekfreak pirate broadcast
http://sleekfreak.ath.cx:81/

---

From: "Tony Hain" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:26:38 -0700

>   I recall Orlando had no convenient bar.

Maybe you spent too much time there to recall ... ;)

As the hosts of Orlando, Glen & I can assure you the hotel bar was within
stumbling distance (Ethernet cable limits) of both the meeting and guest
rooms because one of the goals was to have fledgling pre-standard 802.11
access in the bar. The biggest problem with the bar in Orlando was the
manager's refusal to believe that the IETF would drink as much high quality
beer as he could buy. Maybe your recollection of convenience is due to their
running out of good beer by Tuesday.

Tony