Subject: Terminal room at IETF74

From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 10:04:21 -0000

I believe this to be on-topic for this list based on the
summary of on-topic subjects. However I don't see any
similar subjects recently, so apologies if there is a
batter place, and a pointer to it would be appreciated.

I have had it confirmed by the secretariat that the terminal
room at IETF 74 will not contain any machines, presumably
just network connections.

When I first attended an IETF meeting (IETF56) the terminal
room contained several machines, sometimes barely enough.
But over the years the number has declined, along I suspect
with their usage. There have been machine-free terminal rooms
in the past. As like most people I've brought a laptop, I
haven't monitored the situation closely.

But now, if I come to IETF74, I won't have a laptop with me.
Corporate policy, based on recent US legal decisions, is that
I may not take a laptop (or PDA etc.) into the USA. This is
not subject to modification. Obviously even a machine in the
terminal room would be a very poor second, but it seems even
that is out.

There are obviously broader issues regarding US meetings. But
I will limit myself here to the narrower issue, and to simply
bringing it to attention.

-- 
Christopher Dearlove
Technology Leader, Communications Group
Networks, Security and Information Systems Department
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194  Fax: +44 1245 242124

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87,
Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687

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---

From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 05:59:27 -0800

Does this help?

http://www.bayarealaptops.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] on behalf of Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Sent: Mon 3/2/2009 5:04 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Terminal room at IETF74

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---

From: Richard Barnes <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 09:14:00 -0500

Chris,

At recent IETFs, I've found it helpful to have a couple of machines in 
the terminal room.  Having machines that are pre-configured saved me the 
time of setting up my machine to work with the printers when I just 
wanted to quickly print out a draft during a break.

So it might be useful to keep one our two around, but I agree that no 
more are really necessary.

Thanks for the update,
--Richard

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 13:16:19 -0500

--On Monday, March 02, 2009 10:04 +0000 "Dearlove, Christopher
(UK)" <[email-masked]> wrote:
 
>...
>...
 
>...

Bleech (more about the "US legal decisions" than about your
corporate policies).   A suggestion or two in addition to
Phillip's note about the San Francisco-based laptop rental firm:

* Machines in the "netbook" category have gotten very cheap
(cheaper than IETF registration fees, for example).  While I
would not expect your company to change policy, obtaining a few
of those machines and imaging them to contain nothing in local
storage of corporate interest would seem economic - you are
presumably not the only person who travels to the US.  

* Conversely, perhaps it would make sense for the secretariat to
either obtain some of those or make arrangements for a favorable
one-week laptop rental rate in return for an "enhanced
registration fee".  In other words, if you pay the increased
registration fee and make a deposit, you pick a machine up when
you register and drop it off before you leave and get the
deposit back.  I suggest a funny registration fee rather than a
formal rental from the secretariat because it might be easier
for some corporate accountants to swallow (or easier to get
under the radar).

This should go on ISOC's list of things to whine to the new US
administration about, along with visa request rejections because
"attending the IETF isn't a good enough reason".

    john

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 11:52:55 -0800

> terminal room would be a very poor second, but it seems even

I don't know about you but I wouldn't trust a public terminal no matter
how well maintained for the applications which I carry a laptop.

Depending on your bent, either a personal laptop (with no corporate data
on it) or a mobile phone with the appropriate email conduit but no
pre-existing configuration might be a more desirable (and secure) way to go.

---

From: "Steven M. Bellovin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 16:19:53 -0500

On Mon, 02 Mar 2009 13:16:19 -0500

> "attending the IETF isn't a good enough reason".
It's not just the US; other governments -- including the UK -- have
similar policies.  See, for example,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/150465.stm 
http://www.melonfarmers.co.uk/arlaptop.htm

Not that ISOC shouldn't complain -- but it should complain to many
governments, and perhaps assorted EU commissions.

		--Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb

---

From: Alexa Morris <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 13:41:54 -0800

Christopher,

Actually, the Terminal Room will have two laptops set up for attendee  
use; these are traditionally used primarily for printing (boarding  
passes, etc) but are available for other uses as well.

Regards,
Alexa

> bringing it to attention.

-----------
Alexa Morris / Executive Director / IETF
48377 Fremont Blvd., Suite 117, Fremont, CA  94538
Phone: +1.510.492.4089 / Fax: +1.510.492.4001
Email: [email-masked]

Managed by Association Management Solutions (AMS)
Forum Management, Meeting and Event Planning
www.amsl.com <http://www.amsl.com/>

---

From: Dave CROCKER <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 13:54:04 -0800

Richard Barnes wrote:
> Chris,
> 
> At recent IETFs, I've found it helpful to have a couple of machines in the 
> terminal room.  Having machines that are pre-configured saved me the time of 
> setting up my machine to work with the printers when I just wanted to quickly
> print out a draft during a break.

Having a "kiosk" machine dedicated to quick-printing might make sense.  Nice to
be reminded that indeed, these are provided.

In general, the IETF venue operation needs to supply services that cannot
reasonably be obtained elsewhere.   But we should try to avoid asking IETF venue
operations to spend time and money to satisfy specialized needs.  One of the
benefits in having the IETF meeting in major cities is to make sure that there
are plenty of local resources to satisfy the highly varied needs of our diverse
little community.

When computers were expensive and large, having the IETF supply them was
necessary.  Today, laptops are commodity items, like cell phones and toothpaste.
For the very few arriving without one, they can do a rental.

For example, a quick google for laptop rental surfaces this first entry:

   Rentacomputer.com
   <http://www.rentacomputer.com/rentals/laptop.asp>

There are others, local to S.F.

It looks like the cost ranges between US$125 and US$200 for one week's rental.

Hmmm...  how to off-load this kind of issue from the IETF staff:

     WIKI!

It occurs to me that questions about obtaining various resources and services
usually come up for IETF events and that it would help to have a wiki, for
easily collecting community contributions to point to those, such as rentals,
specialty food stores, recommended restaurants, or whatever.  Hence, the IETF
ops job would be the meta-task of providing the wiki page for the rest of us to
add to.

d/

-- 

   Dave Crocker
   Brandenburg InternetWorking
   bbiw.net

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 14:39:39 -0800

> It looks like the cost ranges between US$125 and US$200 for one week's

At the san francisco bestbuy, $299 + 8.5% ca sales tax buys your choice
of blue pink white copper or black acer asus dell hp  or msi netbooks...

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=sanfrancisco+best++buy&sll=37.561997,-122.398682&sspn=0.740246,1.400757&ie=UTF8&ll=37.809784,-122.398682&spn=1.423465,2.801514&t=h&z=9&iwloc=A

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 02:31:21 -0600

> pre-existing configuration might be a more desirable (and secure)  

The worry is not that the border goons will expose confidential  
information on one's device, but that they'll CLAIM they did (even if  
they have to insert it themselves), and there's no way to disprove  
this when the device is writable.

Hence the need to carry no writable devices across the border, not  
even a USB memory stick or a camera. Or a modern cellphone, for that  
matter.

Of course, that doesn't keep them from claiming that you had a  
writable device in your possession, then planting one there. Given  
sufficient paranoia in one's threat model, there's just no way to  
justify waking up in the morning.

--
Dean Willis

---

From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 09:24:39 -0000

Alexa Morris

> passes, etc) but are available for other uses as well.

That's useful to know. I did enquire of the Secretariat
(reference rt.amsl.com #13335) as to whether there would
be any such machines, and got a negative answer before
raising it here.

---

From: Samuel Weiler <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 13:51:50 -0500 (EST)

On Mon, 2 Mar 2009, John C Klensin wrote:

> * Machines in the "netbook" category have gotten very cheap (cheaper 
> than IETF registration fees, for example).  While I would not expect 
> your company to change policy, obtaining a few of those machines and 
> imaging them to contain nothing in local storage of corporate 
> interest would seem economic - you are presumably not the only 
> person who travels to the US.

I second this idea.

Given the duties on some of these systems in the EU, you might 
consider buying from a US vendor, having the machine shipped to the 
IETF hotel, and installing your choice of OS when you arrive.  And 
then you entirely avoid taking the system through US customs in the 
interesting direction.

Also consider used laptops: I just picked up a used Dell Latitude for 
about the same price as a netbook (and half the price of IETF 
registration), and I'm delighted.

-- Sam

---

From: Mark Andrews <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 07:51:22 +1100

In message <[email-masked]>, Samuel Weil
> registration), and I'm delighted.

	There is no "interesting direction".  I'm pretty sure customs
	gets the same sort of search and ceasure rights on exit and
	it does on arrival.  They do here in Australia.

	Mark
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: [email-masked]

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 19:03:53 -0500

> 	it does on arrival.  They do here in Australia.

In principle, probably.   In practice, travelers leaving the US
don't even get to see customs officials.

   john

---

From: Mark Andrews <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 11:08:14 +1100

> don't even get to see customs officials.

	I beg to differ.  I've seen them myself.  Not often but
	on more than one occassion.

---

From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 09:43:56 -0000

From: John C Klensin [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Machines in the "netbook" category have gotten very cheap

Putting aside whether I could buy such a machine, and assuming
taking it out of the US would be OK policy-wise (that I'd have
to check, I suspect it's within the letter but not the spirit
of the policy) as soon as it's outside the US it's a company
machine I couldn't take back in. Puchasing a laptop per trip
is not very economic.

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 12:59:23 -0600

On Mar 2, 2009, at 12:51 PM, Samuel Weiler wrote:

> Also consider used laptops: I just picked up a used Dell Latitude  
> for about the same price as a netbook (and half the price of IETF  

Given that sometimes the border goons use some aggressive data  
recovery approaches, used laptops are somewhat interesting. Are you  
SURE that some erased sector doesn't contain a vestigial image of  
something embarassing? If it does, can you prove it wasn't you that  
left it there?

Note that some of the "secure" facilities I've worked in dispose of  
used drives by software erasing, beating them with a sledgehammer,  
degaussing, baking in a ceramics kiln,  degaussing again, and then  
beating with a sledgehammer again. Worried about what might be  
recoverable from those drives?

--
Dean Willis

---

From: Elwyn Davies <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 20:41:21 +0000

> recoverable from those drives?
I suspect (but cannot be certain) that solid state disks are probably a 
better bet if you want to erase your drive just with software.  I like 
my Eee PC 1000 with 40G of SSD.  Light and quiet.

For most people, I believe the risk of having your laptop snatched and 
aggressively interrogated is not significantly different from what it 
has been for a while.  Although the border goons don't have to give you 
a reason they do have limited resources and unless they have reason to 
suspect that they might get a positive result from spending large 
amounts of time dismantling your drive they are unlikely to hit on you 
at random, always provided you don't irritate them unnecessarily at the 
time.  OTOH if your employer or your good self  has already come to the 
notice of some US law enforcement entity already, then the chances of 
having your laptop snatched may go up close to a certainty, which I 
suspect is why Chris Dearlove has this problem.  For the rest of us, it 
remains a small risk along with the possibility of being mis-identified 
or triggering some stupid profiling filter.  A general level of paranoia 
is probably justified, but I shan't be going over the top .  Famous last 
words?  Of course,  Your (personal) MMV.

Regards,
Elwyn Davies

---

From: Scott Kitterman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 16:58:14 -0500

>words?  Of course,  Your (personal) MMV.

Based on the address used in the message that kicked off this thread, the 
individual that started this thread works for a company that has a 
significantly greater reason for concern than an average traveller.

Scott K

---

From: "Steven M. Bellovin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 17:05:15 -0500

On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 16:58:14 -0500
Scott Kitterman <[email-masked]> wrote:

> 
> Based on the address used in the message that kicked off this thread,
> the individual that started this thread works for a company that has
> a significantly greater reason for concern than an average traveller.
> 
Indeed.  In the past, various countries -- note carefully; I used the
plural -- have been mentioned in the press as using various government
agencies to advance national economic interests.

---

From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 20:55:16 -0800

Indeed I recently read an indignant complaint from one country concerning commercial espionage conducted by a second. Said conduct having been exposed by the employment by similar espionage tactics by the first against the second.

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:32:53 -0500

> machine I couldn't take back in. Puchasing a laptop per trip

Although many consider the UK to be verging on a socialist state  
(don't worry, the US is gaining on you), I wasn't aware that simply  
arriving in the country with personal property automatically assigned  
such personal property to one's employer. That's pretty scary!

Is this a big enough problem to justify setting up a Netbook Rental  
Desk near IETF checkin?

--
Dean

---

From: Kurt Zeilenga <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 15:00:43 -0700

> Is this a big enough problem to justify setting up a Netbook Rental  

Maybe the IETF should offer to lease to Netbook Rental firms the space  
to operate such a desk.  That way, the IETF'ers get a service...  and  
the IETF might make some profit on the deal (without incurring  
significant risk).

-- Kurt

---

From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 09:44:42 -0000

>such personal property to one's employer. That's pretty scary!

I was assuming I wanted my employer to pay. If they do, they own the
machine. Right now buying a new computer isn't my plan, cheap though
they may be in the US.

---

From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 05:09:22 -0700

OK lets do a closer security analysis.

What is the asset at risk here? - The data on the hard drive
What is the risk? - Disclosure

So lets take a deperimeterized approach, what is the smallest security perimeter that secures the assets? - Round the hard drive.

So one solution that many of us use for Black Hat/DEFCON is to have a second laptop frame for those conferences and buy a new hard drive for each visit that is removed and shredded before return.

You could also use Linux and one of the encrypting file systems.

---

From: Dave Cridland <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:38:00 +0000

> machine. Right now buying a new computer isn't my plan, cheap though

As an aside, owning your own computer, as the tool of your trade, is  
very much more inline with Marxist philosophy than having one  
supplied to you, and as such, Dean Willis is obviously a pinko  
subversive for suggesting such a thing.

Dave.
-- 
Dave Cridland - mailto:[email-masked] - xmpp:[email-masked]
  - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/
  - http://dave.cridland.net/
Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade

---

From: Cullen Jennings <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:42:28 -0600

Some companies are dealing with this by having people travel with a  
"blank" laptop with nothing but VMWare on them, then download the  
image of their real machine once they arrive and running it on the VM.  
I realize your company policy does not allow this but it's interesting  
all the same.