Subject: My resignation

From: LB <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 23:46:34 +0200

Dear IETF Members,
Sorry, I do not speak but I read Engslih. I use Google translation.

*google translation:*
JFC Morfin asked me to interface our working groups, france @ large, with
the IETF. I was badly received by some. Then I had the chance to talk with
serious people, respectful of my ignorance, mindful of my user inputs. I
participated in the WG-IDNABIS and I could share here, with dedicated
people, wishing to work for the common good. They were also subject to the
problem of financing by sponsors described by the IAB in RFC 3869.

Today, two brilliant and dedicated contributors to the WG-IDNABIS have been
banned, in a quarter of an hour. By decision and execution of members of
Google.

I understand that the IETF've become a subsidiary of ISOC and the consortium
of its biggest members. I understand that Google pays its expenses. I
understand the enormous interests involved to control the global namespace
(rather than just domain names, but the words of semantic processing).
However, one root for the IPs, one root for the DNS, one root for languages,
and now a root for the spelling of words, this is too much control in one
place.

I'm too old for that. I quit after copying the mail of one of the deportees
that you did not receive. It is important because it is very firm, but it
also calls for reconciliation in a practical manner. I hope that the other
expelled, will do the same.

*French text:*
JFC Morfin m'avait demandé d'interfacer nos groupes de travail, france@large,
avec l'IETF. J'ai d'abord été méchament accueilli par certains. Puis j'ai eu
la chance de discuter avec des gens sérieux, respectueux de mes ignorances,
soucieux de mes apports d'utilisateur. J'ai participé au WG-IDNABIS et j'ai
pu échanger là, avec des gens dévoués, désirant travailler pour le bien
commun. Ils étaient aussi soumis au problème du financement par les sponsors
décrit par l'IAB dans la RFC 3869.

Aujourd'hui, deux membres brilants et dédiés contributeurs du WG-IDNABIS ont
été bannis, en un quart d'heure. Par décision et exécution de Membres de
Google.

Je comprends que l'IETF ai du devenir une filliale de l'ISOC et le
consortium de ses plus gros membres. Je comprends que Google paie ses
dépenses. Je comprends les énormes intérêts en jeu pour contrôler le nommage
mondial (non plus seulement les noms de domaine, mais les mots des
processeurs sémantiques). Cependant, une racine pour les IPs, une racine
pour le DNS, une racine pour les langues, et maintenant une racine pour
l'orthographe des termes, cela fait trop de contrôle dans un seul endroit.

Je suis trop vieux pour cela. Je démissionne après avoir copié le mail d'un
des expulsés que vous n'avez pu recevoir. Il est important car il est trés
ferme, mais il appelle aussi à la réconciliation de façon pratique. J'espère
que l'autre expulsé, fera de même.

JFC je reste dans le groupe de travail et au comptoir. Enlève moi partout
ailleurs. Explique mon départ. Je suis écoeuré pour l'instant. Je sais que
tu comprendras. De tout coeur avec ce que Patrick Yeu veut dire. Il faut
vivre avec ces gens là pour comprendre combien ils sont pénibles, mais aussi
parfois magnifiques.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Xavier Legoff <[email-masked]>
Date: 2009/4/18
Subject: Re: [listegenerale] Removal of posting privileges
To: Vint Cerf <[email-masked]>
Cc : [email-masked], [email-masked], lisa Dusseault <
[email-masked]>, [email-masked], lisa Dusseault <
[email-masked]>

2009/4/18 Vint Cerf <[email-masked]>
>
> Harald,
> please remove the posting privileges of the email addresses:
>
> [email-masked]    "remy renardin"
> [email-masked]     "xavier legoff"
>
> These posters show no ability to participate constructively in the
consensus building process.
> Vint Cerf
> Chair, IDNABIS
> _______________________________________________
> Idna-update mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update
>

Dear Mr. Cerf,

I am afraid that this is an ukase.

Yet, there is no king or tsar in the IETF.

You are welcome to enable your company to benefit from the IETF along the
new ISOC vision, in order to exclude your competition and users, but at
least do this while respecting the IETF rules.

We have sufficiently proven time and time again that we participate
constructively. We have provided enough information to seriously support our
position: now it is up to the governments, experts, managers, and users to
judge.

The only problem that we have observed thus far is that consensus was headed
our way. We have no doubt that the technical solution, which the Internet
will eventually use, will be rather near the one that clearly not only we
support. Maybe this is because we are the users and - how large can it
really be? - a single operator only lives off of the money of its respective
users.

I cannot prejudge the position of others, as I only joined JFC via Skype.

1) We request people to NOT DoS this WG. Please wait for the IDNA2008 to be
presented to the IETF/LC. The only need for interoperability with any ML-DNS
solution/application, of any kind or by anyone, is for the Charter to be
respected: i.e. no mapping at the protocol level.

2) Please do NOT claim that there is a COI. There is a simple WG management
problem that was created by someone who needs to reread the IETF rules, who
in turn thought himself to be exclusive, and now has to tackle an unexpected
technical clarification in order to address a problem (missing presentation
layer) that many eventually thought was a feature.

Google is important for the Internet and we all benefit from it. Moreover,
their last quarterly results show that they are confronted with their
centralized architecture problem earlier than was expected due to the
current crisis.

As their users, we now have to accompany them in their very long way to go
to the fully distributed people centric architecture that we consensually
agreed upon. We, then, were all of the countries of the world, civil
society, private sector, public powers, international organizations, and
every stakeholder, ... except for the IETF who might have thought that they
could tell all of us, forever, the way to spell better in our own native
languages.

3) Please do NOT harass ISOC for the way that they want to assume the IETF
governance and financing. We have been illegally banned. We were NOT bought
out. However, RFC 3935 certainly has to be enhanced. We are interested in
discussing an RFC 3935bis BOF.

We also have not been banned from ISOC France. Set out to oppose ISOC only
if they also expel us, because in so doing you will thereby defend the IETF
that we truly believe in and that we have joined through the IUCG: it is not
for sale, it is only to serve.

Multilingualization is something complex, in which we are now going to work
on, in peace. This is because we now know that this WG/IDNABIS is unable to
match multilingualization's very prerequisites: to live with others, to be
polite, to be respectful, to care and not to expel, to inform oneself, not
to repeat the same propositions that did not work, to have some
multilingualistic competence and at least some multilateral spirit. We also
want to thank all of its members who, kindly or more formally, supported us.
We hope that they will pursue and perhaps even complete the job that was
described by the Charter.

Therefore, someone needs to take this job over now. Who, other than the
people and lead users of the world, is better suited for this job? That task
will not be easy. However, there is no other way around all this, since ISOC
sold the soul of the IETF to its Platinum members, and its Gold members are
expelling their competition.

I am surprised to have come to sign such a texte after so short a time of
duty at the IETF. However, I started to like it - in spite of the egos,
blazés, aggressive ones. I want this adventure of thousands of people
building a new world with T-Shirts, to survive ISOC sponsors' money,
political creeps, commercial priorities, and continue to help us, the users
and the people.

Xavier Legoff

_______________________________________________
listegenerale mailing list
[email-masked]
http://franceatlarge.org/mailman/listinfo/listegenerale_franceatlarge.org

-- 
LB

---

From: Steve Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 18:14:31 -0400

LB,

I have been following much of this dialog and I am familiar with the  
general set of issues involved here.  I have also been around for a  
long time, and I do not work for Google nor do I depend on them for  
income.  I now serve on the Board of ICANN and I served on the Board  
of ISOC from 2003 to 2006.  I was heavily involved in creating the  
present financial support structure for the IETF, i.e. the creation of  
the IASA, its oversight board IAOC, and the funding arrangements now  
in place to support the IETF.

Your third paragraph, "I understand that the IETF've become a  
subsidiary of ISOC ... this is too much control in one place" is  
simply wrong.  The IETF is extremely sensitive about its independence  
and avoidance of capture by large interests.  All of the parties you  
named fully understand the need for independence and work carefully to  
preserve it.  Moreover, Vint Cerf, though he works for Google, is  
above reproach and contributes enormous amounts of his time to public  
service that are not controlled by or aligned with Google's interests.

The IETF is founded on the principle that participation is by  
individuals, not organizations.  No organization, no matter whether it  
is large or small, controls the IETF processes.

Restricting of posting privileges to a working group is done  
reluctantly, rarely, and only after very substantial effort has been  
expended to find useful ways to interact.  It is unfortunate such  
action was required in this case.  I know Vint and everyone wishes it  
had not been necessary.  However, after lengthy interaction and many  
attempts to keep the discussion focused on the topic, it was necessary.

Steve Crocker

On Apr 18, 2009, at 5:46 PM, LB wrote:

> google translation:
> JFC Morfin asked me to interface our working groups, france @ large,  
> with the IETF. I was badly received by some. Then I had the chance  
> to talk with serious people, respectful of my ignorance, mindful of  
> my user inputs. I participated in the WG-IDNABIS and I could share  
> here, with dedicated people, wishing to work for the common good.  
> They were also subject to the problem of financing by sponsors  
> described by the IAB in RFC 3869.
>
> Today, two brilliant and dedicated contributors to the WG-IDNABIS  
> have been banned, in a quarter of an hour. By decision and execution  
> of members of Google.
>
> I understand that the IETF've become a subsidiary of ISOC and the  
> consortium of its biggest members. I understand that Google pays its  
> expenses. I understand the enormous interests involved to control  
> the global namespace (rather than just domain names, but the words  
> of semantic processing). However, one root for the IPs, one root for  
> the DNS, one root for languages, and now a root for the spelling of  
> words, this is too much control in one place.
>
> I'm too old for that. I quit after copying the mail of one of the  
> deportees that you did not receive. It is important because it is  
> very firm, but it also calls for reconciliation in a practical  
> manner. I hope that the other expelled, will do the same.	
>
> French text:
> JFC Morfin m'avait demandé d'interfacer nos groupes de travail,  
> france@large, avec l'IETF. J'ai d'abord été méchament accueilli par  
> certains. Puis j'ai eu la chance de discuter avec des gens sérieux,  
> respectueux de mes ignorances, soucieux de mes apports  
> d'utilisateur. J'ai participé au WG-IDNABIS et j'ai pu échanger là,  
> avec des gens dévoués, désirant travailler pour le bien commun. Ils  
> étaient aussi soumis au problème du financement par les sponsors  
> Aujourd'hui, deux membres brilants et dédiés contributeurs du WG- 
> IDNABIS ont été bannis, en un quart d'heure. Par décision et  
> exécution de Membres de Google.
>
> consortium de ses plus gros membres. Je comprends que Google paie  
> ses dépenses. Je comprends les énormes intérêts en jeu pour  
> contrôler le nommage mondial (non plus seulement les noms de  
> domaine, mais les mots des processeurs sémantiques). Cependant, une  
> racine pour les IPs, une racine pour le DNS, une racine pour les  
> langues, et maintenant une racine pour l'orthographe des termes,  
> cela fait trop de contrôle dans un seul endroit.
>
> Je suis trop vieux pour cela. Je démissionne après avoir copié le  
> mail d'un des expulsés que vous n'avez pu recevoir. Il est important  
> car il est trés ferme, mais il appelle aussi à la réconciliation de  
> façon pratique. J'espère que l'autre expulsé, fera de même.
>
> JFC je reste dans le groupe de travail et au comptoir. Enlève moi  
> partout ailleurs. Explique mon départ. Je suis écoeuré pour  
> l'instant. Je sais que tu comprendras. De tout coeur avec ce que  
> Patrick Yeu veut dire. Il faut vivre avec ces gens là pour  
> comprendre combien ils sont pénibles, mais aussi parfois magnifiques.
>
> Cc : [email-masked], [email-masked], lisa  
> Dusseault <[email-masked]>, [email-masked], lisa  
> Dusseault <[email-masked]>
>
>
> You are welcome to enable your company to benefit from the IETF  
> along the new ISOC vision, in order to exclude your competition and  
> users, but at least do this while respecting the IETF rules.
>
> constructively. We have provided enough information to seriously  
> support our position: now it is up to the governments, experts,  
> managers, and users to judge.
>
> The only problem that we have observed thus far is that consensus  
> was headed our way. We have no doubt that the technical solution,  
> which the Internet will eventually use, will be rather near the one  
> that clearly not only we support. Maybe this is because we are the  
> users and - how large can it really be? - a single operator only  
> lives off of the money of its respective users.
>
> 1) We request people to NOT DoS this WG. Please wait for the  
> IDNA2008 to be presented to the IETF/LC. The only need for  
> interoperability with any ML-DNS solution/application, of any kind  
> or by anyone, is for the Charter to be respected: i.e. no mapping at  
> the protocol level.
>
> 2) Please do NOT claim that there is a COI. There is a simple WG  
> management problem that was created by someone who needs to reread  
> the IETF rules, who in turn thought himself to be exclusive, and now  
> has to tackle an unexpected technical clarification in order to  
> address a problem (missing presentation layer) that many eventually  
> thought was a feature.
>
> Google is important for the Internet and we all benefit from it.  
> Moreover, their last quarterly results show that they are confronted  
> with their centralized architecture problem earlier than was  
> expected due to the current crisis.
>
> As their users, we now have to accompany them in their very long way  
> to go to the fully distributed people centric architecture that we  
> consensually agreed upon. We, then, were all of the countries of the  
> world, civil society, private sector, public powers, international  
> organizations, and every stakeholder, ... except for the IETF who  
> might have thought that they could tell all of us, forever, the way  
> to spell better in our own native languages.
>
> 3) Please do NOT harass ISOC for the way that they want to assume  
> the IETF governance and financing. We have been illegally banned. We  
> were NOT bought out. However, RFC 3935 certainly has to be enhanced.  
> We are interested in discussing an RFC 3935bis BOF.
>
> We also have not been banned from ISOC France. Set out to oppose  
> ISOC only if they also expel us, because in so doing you will  
> thereby defend the IETF that we truly believe in and that we have  
> joined through the IUCG: it is not for sale, it is only to serve.
>
> Multilingualization is something complex, in which we are now going  
> to work on, in peace. This is because we now know that this WG/ 
> IDNABIS is unable to match multilingualization's very prerequisites:  
> to live with others, to be polite, to be respectful, to care and not  
> to expel, to inform oneself, not to repeat the same propositions  
> that did not work, to have some multilingualistic competence and at  
> least some multilateral spirit. We also want to thank all of its  
> members who, kindly or more formally, supported us. We hope that  
> they will pursue and perhaps even complete the job that was  
> Therefore, someone needs to take this job over now. Who, other than  
> the people and lead users of the world, is better suited for this  
> job? That task will not be easy. However, there is no other way  
> around all this, since ISOC sold the soul of the IETF to its  
> Platinum members, and its Gold members are expelling their  
> competition.
>
> I am surprised to have come to sign such a texte after so short a  
> time of duty at the IETF. However, I started to like it - in spite  
> of the egos, blazés, aggressive ones. I want this adventure of  
> thousands of people building a new world with T-Shirts, to survive  
> ISOC sponsors' money, political creeps, commercial priorities, and  
> continue to help us, the users and the people.
>
> Xavier Legoff
>
>
> Ietf mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf

---

From: Eric Brunner-Williams <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 19:05:17 -0400

> Sorry, I do not speak but I read Engslih. I use Google translation.

tant pis. il ya des ingénieurs à beijing, des vrai contributeurs, qui 
ont fait plus d'efforts que tois.
> respectueux de mes ignorances, soucieux de mes apports d'utilisateur. 
> J'ai participé au WG-IDNABIS et j'ai pu échanger là, avec des gens 
> dévoués, désirant travailler pour le bien commun. Ils étaient aussi 
> soumis au problème du financement par les sponsors décrit par l'IAB 
> dans la RFC 3869.

il y a rein a voir entre 3869 et le problem ici. bien entendu, le fait 
que vgrs a fait le demarch avec race en mai 2001 a créé un problème, et 
notre travail, en 2003 et dans le présent, est limitée en conséquence, 
mais si to veux voir le problem dans le cadre de 3869, faut dir que le 
manque de pouvoir publique, le frique public aussi, dans le gestion du 
contract (.com, .net, .org), et plus au point que quel qu'il soit, point 
de veu de l'ietf.
>
> Aujourd'hui, deux membres brilants et dédiés contributeurs du 
> WG-IDNABIS ont été bannis, en un quart d'heure.

brilants??? non. désolé.
> Par décision et exécution de Membres de Google.

j'ai fait le demande le 15 avril et je'ne suis pas un "Membre de Google".

Eric

---

From: "Michel Py" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 21:04:18 -0700

[To the majority of readers who don't speak French, I apologize in
advance both for feeding the troll and posting in French, but I
could not resist. To the minority who do, I hope you will enjoy.]

> LB écrit:
> Dear IETF Members,
> Sorry, I do not speak but I read Engslih.

Oui, nous avons remarqué. C'est "English", pas "Engslih".

> J'ai d'abord été méchament accueilli par certains.

Tant que nous sommes sur le sujet des fôtes d'ortaugrafe, c'est "méchamMent" avec deux "m".

Michel.

---

From: Marie-France Berny <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 21:33:06 +0200

How elegant a comment!
A very good example of "ability to participate constructively in the
consensus building process".

My father is a dedicated old sick academic (Maths) who joined the IETF and
then ISOC to help in his capacity of informed elder. He believed,  like Mr.
Steve Crocker and may be still some of you, in the IETF values in spite of
JFC warnings that he could be hurt.

He wanted to show that the Internet is a system which belongs to everyone
(RFC 3271) and the IETF a true democratic endeavour where everyone can
contribute - even if one is not a "smart wasp". He thought that he could be
one of the people interested in its
evolution are from every culture under the sun and from all walks of life.
He explained me that the IETF puts its emphasis on technical competence,
rough consensus and individual participation, and is to be open to competent
input from any source. In human language and working interfacing, believe me
he is far more an expert than any of those I read lately.

- First, there were phone calls home from WG-LTRU people, frightening my
mother. So, he had to get red listed.
- Then, there was the ISOC France incredible dispute and ISOC World
attitude.
- the the insults - hapilly not from everyone (thank you Mr. Carpenter).
- Then the attitude of this WG which was permitted, I would say led, by its
most famous and respected Chair.
- I fear that Mr. Everson, Mr. Seng, Mr. Py, etc.  may excel in some aspects
of their trade but they appear not to do so in "polite linguistics".

2009/4/19 Michel Py <[email-masked]>

> [To the majority of readers who don't speak French,

This is why they can pretend to reform the French language spelling.
Probably, the majority of the WG-IDNABIS Charter readers do not read English
either.

> I apologize in

Among the minority who does on this list I suppose that ten of them are
friends of my father. There can be more of them if you so desire.

> Oui, nous avons remarqué. C'est "English", pas "Engslih".

My father is in a wheel chair and has fingers arthritis. This may explain
some "fat" fingers, don't you think?

> "méchamMent" avec deux "m".

Dear Mr. Michel PY (Proud of Yourself?), you certainly know what I think you
can do with the second "m..." of yours.

I suppose that I will now be fired from this enlightning "working" group, so
let me technically contribute once with some indications:

This WG will not succeed if IDNA2008:

- "is too complex to be used easily by everyone".
- is signed by people who fell they "are not responsible in its use and
mindful of the rights of others who share its wealth".
- its constraints "restrict access to it in every language"
- it becomes "the lie at the heart of the Internet revolution", while
permitting deceiving meanings through deceiving spellings.

It happens that my father has known JFC Morfin through my own research and
development. I must confess that I did not pay enough attention to the
influence of money and power on the Internet technology.

Further to this discovery of mine of how the IETF behaves, as a "strong
participation from the computing, networking, and telecommunications
industries, from companies large and small"
http://www.isoc.org/isoc/membership/orgwhyjoin/membership2.pdf, where The
ISOC "Platinum Sponsorship Program allows companies to specifically
designate areas or projects to be supported in the fields of Standards". I
touched with the way my father and his colleague were treated that the IETF
concepts may have little to do with the technology that's possible, and much
to do with the technology that some choose to create (RFC 3935).

I think I understand better what IAB says in RFC 3869, and that I disagree
with its call on Governements for help. The Internet is to be by the nice
people for the ordinary people. Nice people like the person you laughed at
Mr. PY.

Mme Marie-France Berny.
Chercheur.

---

From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:11:43 +0200

On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 09:33:06PM +0200,
 Marie-France Berny <[email-masked]> wrote 

> mother. So, he had to get red listed.
...
> Chercheur.

Hey, that's important news, it is apparently the first time that one
of JFC avatars pretend to be female. Since IETF is not without
reproach on that ground, any progress towards parity is a good thing
:-)

---

From: Bill Manning <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 03:20:29 -0700

Chers LB,
Désolé, je ne parle pas mais je lis en français. Je utiliser Google traduction. 

*google translation:*
ok, bye.

English version.
ok, bye.

--bill
Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and
certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise).

---

From: Marie-France Berny <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:33:34 +0200

2009/4/20 Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]>

> reproach on that ground, any progress towards parity is a good thing

As Mr. PY would say: "pretends".

Marie-France Berny