Subject: Queen Sirikit National Convention Center

From: Glen Zorn <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2011 14:46:14 +0700

I note that there is an opening on the IETF meeting calendar for an
Asian meeting in 2013.  Here is a suggestion:

Meeting Facilities:
http://www.qsncc.com/venue-information/our-facilities.html

There are 7 pages of "Official Hotels", starting at about $60/night.

Official Hotels: http://www.qsncc.com/visitor/official-hotels.html

---

From: Glen Zorn <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2011 14:48:39 +0700

On 8/6/2011 3:00 AM, Fred Baker wrote:
> On Aug 5, 2011, at 12:46 AM, Glen Zorn wrote:
> 
>> <gwz.vcf>_______________________________________________
>> Ietf mailing list
>> [email-masked]
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion.
> 
> I find your CC line highly confusing. I changed it.

And I changed it back, to include the IETF.

> 
> I have a few standard questions. 

Most of which, I imagine, should be answered by the IAOC.

Where I'm coming from is that, from my perspective, there should be

someone for whom any meeting is "at home"; it can't help but be a jaunt
for many, but there should be a group of people that is actively posting
drafts,

commenting on lists, and perhaps even chairing a working group for whom
it's not a jaunt.

There is no place in the world that is "safe", but we don't need obvious
complications like periodic coups, human trafficking in front of the
hotel, and so on.

I don't know how to interpret the term "human trafficking" here.  Are
you suggesting that there are slave markets in front of the Sheraton
(you might be, depending upon where your "news" comes from)?  I suspect,
though, that you are using it as a code word for prostitution.  If so,
tell us: did you raise the same objection about Quebec City?
Maastricht?  Prague?  Seoul?  Vancouver?  Paris?  In fact, prostitution
is legal in 3 of the last 4 cities in which we met and 2 out of the next
3...

There are various dietary issues based on health concerns and religious
matters. And oh yes, one of the issues is cost.
> 
> Who from the IETF comes from there (Bangkok)?

Me, for one.  But for that matter, who from the IETF comes from Quebec
City?  Maastricht?  Prague?  That hotbed of Internet innovation, Orlando?

> 
> In the photos, I saw no breakout rooms. I imagine they are built as needed using folding dividers or etc. What can you tell me about those facilities?

Ask the folks at the Convention Center; they are quite nice, in my
experience, and helpful.

> 
> Cost is an issue, and costs often trade off. A long and expensive flight to an expensive hotel 

that is separate from the conference facility and therefore doesn't help
us negotiate conference facility prices,

and oh by the way is far from a limited set of food options, is
something of a worst case. Finding ways to mitigate those helps.

You have suggested $60 rooms, which helps. Do any help with the price of
the conference center? How does catering fit?

Again, these would seem to be questions that the meeting organizers
should ask of the venue managers; I am a member of neither of those groups.

> The "food" section mentions a food court nearby: tell me about local markets with fresh healthful food, which some will need specific access to,

"Fresh" and "healthful" are loaded words which mean different things to
different people; for some if a vegetable isn't wrapped in three layers
of plastic it can't be "healthful"...

markets or restaurants that cater to kosher and muslim dietary rules, etc?

My understanding is that "kosher" has nearly as many meanings as there
are rabbis ;-); there are many halal restaurants nearby.

> 
> How is getting an airplane ticket? I went to Cisco Travel's web site with a view to pricing a round trip ticket to Bangkok, 

Going to Cisco Travel was probably your first mistake ;-).

determining whether the current unrest

What "current unrest" would that be?

affects travel advisories, and so on, and found that the vast majority
of itineraries available to me two weeks from now are sold out.

Hmm.  Popular destination, huh?

The Hipmunk Agony Index (http://www.hipmunk.com/#!SBA_BKK,Aug20_Aug27)
suggests that one could do worse, but there are relatively few flights
that actually get me there.
> 
> BTW, you'll note that, hat tip to folks who complain about long strings of flights, 

this one for me is SBA->SFO->NRT->BKK, and NRT->BKK is not a jump of a
puddle.

So, in other words (ignoring the SBA->??? hop which, unless SBA has
grown immensely since my last visit, will exist for just about any
destination outside the Southwestern US), it's one stop for you to
Bangkok.  Admittedly the mileage isn't inconsiderable, but in what
universe does that qualify as a "long string of flights"?  Bangkok is
one stop from every major airport in the US; there are quite a few
non-stop flights from Europe and, of course, Asia.  BTW, THAI Airways
flies non-stop LAX->BKK...

For me, more or less par for the course, but I guarantee that the folks
who plan meetings will be castigated for picking an out of the way place
if we go there.

RE:"out of the way", see above.

A worry: how many companies will choose to send less people as a way to
manage costs?

A quick spot-check of current prices suggests that tickets to Bangkok
are about $300 more than to Paris at the moment.  Is that going to break
the bank?

> 
> The site spoke of "WiFi Internet Areas". We would of course change that. How well is the building set up to support that? 

What capacity is available to the backbone from there? Same question re
the $60 hotels of which you speak?

The $60 hotel of which I spoke is the Amari Boulevard (hardly a dump); I
have no idea what their WiFi is like, but again that seems like a
question the organizers should ask the hotel.

Note that when the IETF shows up in common business hotels that have
pretty reasonable Internet access, we completely overload that service,

and as a result we have taken to replacing it while we are there. How
will that fit?
> 
> My daughter took her honeymoon in Phuket. 

Sorry to hear that; although the scenery around Phuket is amazing, it's
the last place I would go for a honeymoon (OK, so Las Vegas would be the
_last_ place, but nevertheless).  Koh Samui or Krabi would have been far
preferable...

Several stories related to that are strong advertisements for Thailand.
Some Really Are Not. Great subject in the presence of adult beverages.
> 
> But just looking at the web site, it seems like a nice facility, and the pictures are great. 
> 

Apricot was held at the convention center a few years ago and it worked
out quite nicely, I think.  In any case, the statement was made during
the administrative plenary that the IAOC was having trouble finding
venues in Asia w/o $300/night hotel price tags; this is a suggestion for
investigation.  I suspect that similar results could be had in Kuala
Lumpur, Jakarta, Manila or Phnom Penh (though those _are_ out-of-the-way
;-).  I don't intend to do your job for you, but if you (IAOC) could
come up with a set of specific, detailed questions I would probably be
willing to drop by QSNCC and investigate.

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 09:48:09 -0400

Dear Glen;

Thanks for all of this information. Do you know if there is an "off-season"
for
Bangkok ?

Regards
Marshall

On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 3:48 AM, Glen Zorn <[email-masked]> wrote:

> > In the photos, I saw no breakout rooms. I imagine they are built as
> needed using folding dividers or etc. What can you tell me about those
> facilities?
>
> > The "food" section mentions a food court nearby: tell me about local
> markets with fresh healthful food, which some will need specific access to,
>
> > How is getting an airplane ticket? I went to Cisco Travel's web site with
> a view to pricing a round trip ticket to Bangkok,
>
> > The site spoke of "WiFi Internet Areas". We would of course change that.
> How well is the building set up to support that?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf mailing list
> [email-masked]

---

From: Glen Zorn <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2011 23:17:00 +0700

On 8/6/2011 8:48 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote:
> Dear Glen;
> 
> Thanks for all of this information. Do you know if there is an
> "off-season" for 
> Bangkok ?

Yes, it's pretty much now (July, August & September).  However, November
is widely considered the nicest month of the year: it's at the tail end
of the rainy season, so the air is drying out but it's not too hot.
December is very nice, too, but it's the beginning of the high tourist
season so hotel prices go up.

BTW, I neglected to mention in my reply to Fred that the convention
center is a couple of blocks from one of the largest markets in the
city, specializing in seafood.  It's a night market, meaning that it
doesn't open until around midnight but if you're an early riser it
doesn't close until 8-9 AM.  There are several Western-style
supermarkets nearby, too.

...

---

From: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 20:54:01 -0400

> From: Glen Zorn

I am still trying to clear my mind of the vision of enslaved
IETFers...  Given the difficulty many of us have convincing our
employers to send us to the IETF, our market value must be small, if
not negative.

Dale

---

From: Pete Resnick <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 12:58:03 -0500

> http://www.qsncc.com/venue-information/our-facilities.html

I'm happy to have the IAOC look at this site. But one of the items that 
I've heard is consistently on the "wish list" for sites is "under one 
roof". Looking at the hotel list and at Google maps, there isn't a hotel 
closer than 1km walk from the convention center, and the larger ones are 
further than that. That's not a show-stopper, but I can say personally 
that I am lazy and do not relish the walk at 7:15am to make it to the 
IESG meeting. I was similarly not a fan of the Vienna IETF meeting site, 
which was likewise situated away from the hotels.

Again, not the end of the world (cheaper lodging prices are welcome), 
but neither is it ideal.

pr

-- 
Pete Resnick<http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
Qualcomm Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102

---

From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2011 20:25:41 -0400

>>>>> "Pete" == Pete Resnick <[email-masked]> writes:
    Pete> On 8/5/11 2:46 AM, Glen Zorn wrote:
    >> I note that there is an opening on the IETF meeting calendar for
    >> an Asian meeting in 2013.  Here is a suggestion:
    >> 
    >> Meeting Facilities:

    Pete> I'm happy to have the IAOC look at this site. But one of the
    Pete> items that I've heard is consistently on the "wish list" for
    Pete> sites is "under one roof". Looking at the hotel list and at
    Pete> Google maps, there isn't a hotel closer than 1km walk from the
    Pete> convention center, and the larger ones are further than
    Pete> that. That's not a show-stopper, but I can say personally that
    Pete> I am lazy and do not relish the walk at 7:15am to make it to
    Pete> the IESG meeting. I was similarly not a fan of the Vienna IETF
    Pete> meeting site, which was likewise situated away from the
    Pete> hotels.

Yes, and we repeated this in numerous other places too. 
Maastrich and Dublin (I'm told).
Montreal (both times)...

The problem with Vienna wasn't that the was a walk, but that there was
no canonical bar!!!!  This is *REALLY* the problem.  IETFs want a place
to sit and relax and 

In fact, the walk from the Hilton to the Quebec Conference Centre was
pretty close to 1km, and we didn't seem to have a canonical bar either.
Some suggested that had the reception room in Quebec had food/drink
service, it would have actually been very very very good.
(but, I would argue that Commensal was in fact that canonical lunch
location...) 

I travelled 15m on RTC (Quebec City) from Laval University.  
The residences were pretty rough, but I wasn't bothered because the
7minute frequency continued on until 1am.  In Vienna it also wasn't a
long trip, but there was obvious place to "run into" other IETFers.

-- 
]       He who is tired of Weird Al is tired of life!           |  firewalls  [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
] [email-masked] http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[
   Kyoto Plus: watch the video <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzx1ycLXQSE>
	               then sign the petition.

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 17:40:48 -0700

On Aug 7, 2011, at 5:25 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:

> pretty close to 1km

?

It was out the lobby behind the restaurant and down two escalators. Even if you walked across the courtyard at street level and then wandered back to the location we were using - the way I walked the first time I found it - it wasn't a km.

---

From: Ross Callon <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 23:45:53 -0400

I attended an APRICOT meeting at the Queen Sirikit National Convention Center many years ago. The bad news is that we needed to take cabs back and forth between our hotel and the meeting. The good news is that at least at that time cabs were readily available and *very* reasonably priced. The meeting location seemed quite good to me (from my recollection). The hotel that we stayed at was not horridly expensive, but was not cheap and the US dollar has probably lost about half of its value since then (it was a very nice hotel that catered to westerners). 

Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Pete Resnick
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2011 1:58 PM
To: Glen Zorn
Cc: [email-masked]; IETF Discussion
Subject: Re: Queen Sirikit National Convention Center

pr

---

From: Mark Nottingham <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 14:35:46 +1000

Looks fine to me. I have very little sympathy for those whinging about long flights.

While where at it:
  http://www.mcec.com.au/

Brand-new conference centre, canonical hotel is a Hilton, and boy can I show you some bars...

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham   http://www.mnot.net/

---

From: Glen Zorn <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 12:58:32 +0700

On 8/8/2011 12:58 AM, Pete Resnick wrote:
> IESG meeting. 

I would not recommend walking in any case (Thai people rarely walk any
further than absolutely necessary ;-).  However, the CC has it's own
subway stop, with convenient connections to the Sky Train.  Some hotels
are more convenient than others, of course; for example, the Westin and
Sheraton are located adjacent to & opposite, respectively, a subway
station one stop from the CC.  In any case, a taxi from any of the
hotels on the list would today cost < $3 (probably closer to $2) one way.

> I was similarly not a fan of the Vienna IETF meeting site,

---

From: Glen Zorn <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 13:26:33 +0700

On 8/8/2011 11:35 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> While where at it: http://www.mcec.com.au/
> 

Unfortunately, the cheapest room @ the Hilton Melbourne South Wharf
right now is > $290/night (AU$280).

...

---

From: Mark Nottingham <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 16:31:46 +1000

> right now is > $290/night (AU$280).

Doesn't seem that much more than Quebec City, IIRC. And, of course, there are *plenty* of hotels within a reasonable walk.

Anyway.

Cheers,

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 00:56:42 -0700 (PDT)

Nothing is "a reasonable walk" when the average temperature is 32 C.
At least not for the "average" IETF attendee.

(34 in April, 31 in December, lowest nightime temp 21 in December and
27 in April-May-June).

We did APRICOT at this venue in 2002. Not a bad place for a 
conference, but most certainly requires transportation to the hotels.

ole

On Mon, 8 Aug 2011, Mark Nottingham wrote:

> 
> And, of course, there are *plenty* of hotels within a reasonable 
> walk.
> 
> Anyway.
> 
> Cheers,
>

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 00:57:29 -0700 (PDT)

Oh, I see you were referring to Melbourne, sorry :-)

ole

Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
Cisco Systems
Tel: +1 408-527-8972   Mobile: +1 415-370-4628
E-mail: [email-masked]  URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj
Skype: organdemo

---

From: Yoav Nir <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 16:56:57 +0300

> (34 in April, 31 in December, lowest nightime temp 21 in December and

Pretty much like Tel Aviv in August.

Tucson or Phoenix have much higher temperatures, but what it lacks in raw degrees, Bangkok makes up for with suffocating humidity.

I don't think there's an amount of air conditioning that would make me complain in Bangkok.

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 10:43:07 -0400

--On Monday, August 08, 2011 16:56 +0300 Yoav Nir
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>> (34 in April, 31 in December, lowest nightime temp 21 in
>> December and 27 in April-May-June).
> 
> Tucson or Phoenix have much higher temperatures, but what it
> lacks in raw degrees, Bangkok makes up for with suffocating
> humidity.
> 

I've been in meetings in Bangkok and been cold in the meeting
rooms.  Of course, tastes differ... but I grew up in Tucson and
rather liked the summers especially as long as relative humidity
stayed in single digits. :-)

Of course, given some of the other suggestions made recently, we
probably should also be considering Tel Aviv as a meeting site
-- from what I understand, non-trivial numbers of IETF
participants (unlike some places discussed recently), plausible
hotel costs, decent airport and international connections, good
in-country Internet infrastructure.  Might be plausible for a
late fall or early spring meeting if there are adequate meeting
facilities... I take the above to be a hint that August should
be avoided.

    john

---

From: Eric Burger <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 08:23:27 -0400

I like Thailand, and Bangkok is a StarAlliance hub. I am assuming the political troubles are settled now, and probably will be for sure in 2 years.

On Aug 5, 2011, at 3:46 AM, Glen Zorn wrote:

> <gwz.vcf>

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 07:48:56 -0700

> facilities... I take the above to be a hint that August should

Wanna have the visa-issue like in the US?

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 10:56:29 -0400

--On Monday, August 08, 2011 07:48 -0700 Joel Jaeggli
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>...
>> Of course, given some of the other suggestions made recently,
>> we probably should also be considering Tel Aviv as a meeting
>> site -- from what I understand, non-trivial numbers of IETF
>> participants (unlike some places discussed recently),
>> plausible hotel costs, decent airport and international
>> connections, good in-country Internet infrastructure.  Might
>> be plausible for a late fall or early spring meeting if there
>> are adequate meeting facilities... I take the above to be a
>> hint that August should be avoided.
> 

I'm aware of the problem.  I'm also aware that we keep holding
meetings in the US and that some participants didn't find Canada
a whole lot better this time around.   And I'm also aware that
Israeli passport holders have absolutely no chance of getting
visas for some of the locations that have been discussed
recently, no matter how much they participate in the IETF or how
long in advance they apply.  So I'd personally think that issue
should be in the "tradeoff" category, rather than the
"showstopper" one.

   john

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 09:09:13 -0700

> should be in the "tradeoff" category, rather than the

Having worked for a company with it's headquarters in Ramat Gan and it's manufacturing in Penang I prefer to not make my or someone else's travels more complex than strictly necessary.

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 13:35:33 -0400

--On Monday, August 08, 2011 09:09 -0700 Joel Jaeggli
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>> meetings in the US and that some participants didn't find
>> Canada a whole lot better this time around.   And I'm also
>> aware that Israeli passport holders have absolutely no chance
>> of getting visas for some of the locations that have been
>> discussed recently, no matter how much they participate in
>> the IETF or how long in advance they apply.  So I'd
>> personally think that issue should be in the "tradeoff"
>> category, rather than the "showstopper" one.
> 
> Having worked for a company with it's headquarters in Ramat
> Gan and it's manufacturing in Penang I prefer to not make my
> or someone else's travels more complex than strictly necessary.

Sounds like a worthwhile goal.  Did you have a collection of
places in mind that have the necessary infrastructure for an
IETF meeting, convenient travel connections (however you define
that), a plausible cost structure (ditto), and no visa issues
for anyone who might reasonably choose to participate in the
IETF?  Ideally, add "good sponsorship opportunities and likely
sponsors" to those qualifications.  Unless that yields a list of
at least moderate length, I repeat my comment about tradeoffs.

    john

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 11:07:55 -0700

On Aug 8, 2011, at 10:35 AM, John C Klensin wrote:

> that), a plausible cost structure (ditto).

My employeers have hosted two ietf meetings, QED.

> and no visa issues
> IETF?

We've heard from the community where minimizing our exposure to visa is should be in our list of priorities. I know of no previous location, where I involved in the meeting planning where there were no visa issue.

>  Ideally, add "good sponsorship opportunities and likely

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 14:28:34 -0400

--On Monday, August 08, 2011 11:07 -0700 Joel Jaeggli
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> We've heard from the community where minimizing our exposure
> to visa is should be in our list of priorities. I know of no
> previous location, where I involved in the meeting planning
> where there were no visa issue.

Joel,

That is exactly my point.  There is probably no where in the
world that is completely free of visa issues for everyone.  So
the IAOC tries to minimize visa aggravation or spread the
aggravation around, weighing the visa issues against others.   I
think they do a moderately good job of it; others might give
them either higher or lower scores.

I think, if possible, we should strive to not have serious visa
aggravation for the same group of people two meetings in a row.
But, because "no visa aggravation, problems, or high fees for
anyone" is going to be rare or impossible, the visa issues with
any given location are just another tradeoff unless the rules
are so severe in practice that almost no one can get it.

I'm willing (indeed happy) to have IAOC sort out those tradeoffs
even though I would prefer that they be a tad more open with the
community about the decisions they are making and why.

   john

---

From: Glen Zorn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 13:00:51 +0700

> At least not for the "average" IETF attendee.

Just to add a little perspective for the Celsius-challenged ;-), 32C =
89.6F.  Warm, but not IMHO life-threatening, even for the sedentary ;-).

> conference, but most certainly requires transportation to the hotels.

Yes, that would be a good idea; taxis are plentiful, extremely cheap
_and_ they'll actually take you places (as opposed to Seoul, MSP and QC,
where I have been repeatedly refused carriage)...

...

---

From: Glen Zorn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 13:28:51 +0700

On 8/8/2011 8:56 PM, Yoav Nir wrote:

>> Nothing is "a reasonable walk" when the average temperature is 32
>> C. At least not for the "average" IETF attendee.
>> 
>> (34 in April, 31 in December, lowest nightime temp 21 in December
>> and 27 in April-May-June).
> 
> Tucson or Phoenix have much higher temperatures, but what it lacks in
> raw degrees, Bangkok makes up for with suffocating humidity.

I think that "suffocating" is a little over the top, but if you live in
a desert I suppose it might seem that way.  Nevertheless, the humidity
is nothing like that in NYC, Houston, Minneapolis (an IETF favorite) or
even Paris...

---

From: Glen Zorn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 13:32:27 +0700

On 8/8/2011 9:43 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
...

> probably should also be considering Tel Aviv as a meeting site

I like this idea.

---

From: Wes Hardaker <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 07:52:03 -0700

>>>>> On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 12:58:32 +0700, Glen Zorn <[email-masked]> said:

GZ> In any case, a taxi from any of the hotels on the list would today
GZ> cost < $3 (probably closer to $2) one way.

I'd argue that group shuttles, as has been done in the past, is probably
a better option than trying to have 1000 people even share taxi rides.
-- 
Wes Hardaker
SPARTA, Inc.

---

From: Edward Lewis <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 12:52:14 -0400

>conference, but most certainly requires transportation to the hotels.

I was there too, for 10-14 days.  It was an experience I never 
forgot.  At the time there was considerable road work at a key 
intersection not far from the venue.  I was staying at the Windsor 
Suites with a room that could see the main entrance of the venue.

Despite the "long way" being about 1 mile, it would take about 45 
mins to get from the hotel to venue via a van/taxi.  And taxi's were 
funnier.  Although we had hotel cards printed in both English and 
Thai, the driver always needed an "interpreter" (usually a venue 
staff member at the door) to read the card back to him.  One 
English-speaking cabbie explained that this wasn't a language problem 
but an eyesight problem.  Most cabbies couldn't see well enough to 
make out the card's contents.  (Including the driver we spoke too.)

At least with the traffic moving so slow you didn't need good eyes to drive.
-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis
NeuStar                    You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468

I'm overly entertained.

---

From: Philip Smith <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 04:57:34 +1000

Edward Lewis said the following on 10/08/11 02:52 :
> I was there too, for 10-14 days.  It was an experience I never forgot. 

While on the topic of QSNCC in Bangkok, I can contribute to the APRICOT
2002 experiences... Apart from hotels all being a long walk (there was
no subway in 2002, it was still being built), deploying wireless was a
challenge (or easy, depending on your point of view) as the centre had
been built specifically for a Governmental summit (perhaps ASEAN or
similar), so each hall was electromagnetically isolated. No leaky
wireless networks, but then a huge number of APs were needed. Which we
didn't realise in the site survey, not until turning up on the day to
deploy.

When APRICOT comes back to Bangkok in the future (it is a wonderful
conference/convention city), the subway will make the location much more
favourable, although I think the APIA Board will want to consider other
venues too in light of the previous experience with QSNCC.

philip
(APIA Board Chair)
--

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 17:12:15 -0500

> 89.6F.  Warm, but not IMHO life-threatening, even for the sedentary ;-).

Y'all come on down to Dallas. It was 39C while I was walking the dog last night, down from the daily peak of about 44C. We're looking forward to October, when the highs should drop to 32C. And the lows to around zero .... pack a sweater.

And yep, I'm probably a flabby, nigh-on-fiftyish average IETF attendee. We're tougher than you think, Ole! 

On the other hand, 22 hours of air travel is pretty much close to fatal. Whatever happened to bunk beds on planes? 

Couldn't we just rent a university building in Hawaii? That's sort of a midway point between everything. Classroom chairs can't be any worse than Hilton chairs, and it would be really handy to have built-in white boards for markup. Besides, I've always wanted to have a plenary in a football stadium. With cheerleaders.

--
Dean

---

From: Glen Zorn <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 13:01:57 +0700

> a better option than trying to have 1000 people even share taxi rides.

There are 7 pages of "official hotels".  Some might have shuttles many
won't.  In addition traffic is such that a shuttle might take a very
long time, since bus drivers tend in my experience to follow set routes
rather than routing around congestion (of which there is a lot ;-).  In
any case, I would say that public transportation would likely be the
best alternative unless the hotel in question is very close and you
don't mind the adventure of walking. Currently the price of a 15 trip
pass on BTS (the SkyTrain) is Bht 350 (about $11.66); a 3 day pass on
MRT (the subway -- QSNCC is on the subway) is ~$7.33, so about $30 would
basically take care of travel expenses for the week...

---

From: Glen Zorn <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 14:16:52 +0700

On 8/10/2011 5:12 AM, Dean Willis wrote:
...

> Y'all come on down to Dallas. It was 39C while I was walking the dog
> last night, down from the daily peak of about 44C. We're looking
> forward to October, when the highs should drop to 32C. And the lows
> to around zero .... pack a sweater.
> 
> And yep, I'm probably a flabby, nigh-on-fiftyish average IETF
> attendee. We're tougher than you think, Ole!
> 
> On the other hand, 22 hours of air travel is pretty much close to
> fatal.

My total travel time home from QC was ~32 hours.  I lived...

> 
> Whatever happened to bunk beds on planes?

Or seats designed for adults rather than children, for that matter?

> 
> Couldn't we just rent a university building in Hawaii? That's sort of
> a midway point between everything. Classroom chairs can't be any
> worse than Hilton chairs, and it would be really handy to have
> built-in white boards for markup. Besides, I've always wanted to have
> a plenary in a football stadium. With cheerleaders.
> 
> -- Dean
>

---

From: Mikael Abrahamsson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 09:42:16 +0200 (CEST)

> venues too in light of the previous experience with QSNCC.

I would just like to chime in that QSNCC is in an ideal spot in Bangkok, 
connecting both major public transportation that work very well (MRT and 
BTS). There are plenty of USD30-40 / night hotels nearby (< 10 minute 
walking distance) if one doesn't need the more highend ones which would be 
a few stops away on the BTS.

Low season is april-october, it's warm (35-40C during the days, 25-30C 
during the nights) and extremely humid both day and night.

Regarding political problems, there is no way to tell beforehand, but 
having experienced last years problems on-site (I was there march-april) 
they looked a lot worse on TV compared to actually being there. There was 
little problem avoiding it, and QSNCC isn't in the areas targeted last 
year.

So it's more down to if the site works practically to establish 
infrastructure needed and if there is someone locally willing to sponsor 
the event, especially with helping out with practicalities.

Flights are plentyful to Bangkok from all over the world, though most 
flights to/from the US seems to go via Japan.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: [email-masked]

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 01:06:48 -0700 (PDT)

Just on the topic of political unrest: Once the situation rises to the 
level of "international news", all bets are off. Regardless of the 
actual danger, companies (and even countries) will issue travel bans
or advisories which makes it impossible to have a normal meeting.

Last year's August/September APNIC meeting was supposed to be in 
Bangkok. Nice venue, sponsorship in place, all set to go. But in June
APNIC pulled the plug and moved the meeting to Australia (City of Gold 
Coast). It was felt that even moving the meeting to somewhere else
in Thailand would be problematic because the travel advisories and
bans said in effect "don't fly through BKK" (which was unaffected by
the riots in a small section of downtown). It's true that the riots
DID cause the venue hotel to close, but at least in theory the meeting
could have been held in Phuket or some place like that. APNIC is of 
course a much smaller meeting in terms of attandee figures, so finding
an alterntive venue isn't that complicated, but I would NOT want to be
in the business of moving an IETF meeting 2 months before the event.

Ole

Ole J. Jacobsen

On Wed, 10 Aug 2011, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:

> connecting both major public transportation that work very well (MRT and BTS).
> There are plenty of USD30-40 / night hotels nearby (< 10 minute walking
> distance) if one doesn't need the more highend ones which would be a few stops
> away on the BTS.
> 
> Low season is april-october, it's warm (35-40C during the days, 25-30C during
> the nights) and extremely humid both day and night.
> 
> Regarding political problems, there is no way to tell beforehand, but having
> experienced last years problems on-site (I was there march-april) they looked
> a lot worse on TV compared to actually being there. There was little problem
> avoiding it, and QSNCC isn't in the areas targeted last year.
> 
> So it's more down to if the site works practically to establish infrastructure
> needed and if there is someone locally willing to sponsor the event,
> especially with helping out with practicalities.
> 
> Flights are plentyful to Bangkok from all over the world, though most flights
> to/from the US seems to go via Japan.
> 
> --

---

From: Glen Zorn <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 16:34:52 +0700

On 8/10/2011 3:06 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote:

...

> I would NOT want to be in the business of moving an IETF meeting 2
> months before the event.

Certainly not, but all hell can break loose with little or no warning
virtually anywhere (see
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/08/london_riots.html).

...

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 05:19:52 -0700 (PDT)

On Tue, 9 Aug 2011, Dean Willis wrote:

> We're tougher than you think, Ole!
> 
> 
> --
> Dean
> 

Judging by the whining, I sometimes wonder.... :-)

Ole's iPad

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 00:17:39 -0700 (PDT)

Glen,

I am NOT arguing against holding a meeting in Thailand if we find a 
suitable venue, sponsors, available dates and all that. I was merely 
pointing out that companies and governments tend to over-react and 
issue blanket warnings and bans for places with the kind of unrest we 
are talking about. The APNIC meeting is a classic illustration of the 
problem: a relatively small (but violent) protest in one part of 
Bangkok basically ends up turning all of Thailand into a no-go zone 
for a very long time.

Since I have not hear a single word of news from Thailand for a long
time (apart from that story about the jailed American author), I 
assume things are "just fine" there nowadays. Human trafficking 
nothwithstanding :-)

Ole

Ole J. Jacobsen

---

From: Mikael Abrahamsson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 09:44:41 +0200 (CEST)

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011, Ole Jacobsen wrote:

> time (apart from that story about the jailed American author), I assume 
> things are "just fine" there nowadays. Human trafficking 
> nothwithstanding :-)

They just performed an election 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_general_election,_2011> and there was a 
clear winner and the result doesn't seem to be contested, so right now 
there are no obvious issues to cause major political problems.

Basically, the "red shirt" protesters from last year got their party 
elected, so if there are going to be protests, it'll be some other group.

Of course, 2013 is a long way out so there is no way to tell for sure, but 
as someone else wrote, London right now shows that there is nothing that 
is sure anywhere.