Subject: IETF 92 in Dallas!

From: IETF Administrative Director <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 12:04:55 -0700

The IAOC is pleased to announce Dallas, TX, USA as the site for IETF 92 from March 22-27, 
2015.  The IETF was last in Dallas for IETF 65 in 2006.  IETF 92 will be at a different venue in 
the Dallas Arts District.

Those who may be interested in hosting or sponsoring this or any future meeting are invited to 
contact Drew Dvorshak at [email-masked].  See Host opportunities below.

Ray Pelletier
IETF Administrative Director

IETF Meeting Schedule:

2012
	IETF 85  Atlanta  4 - 9 November   Host: North American Cable Industry

2013
	IETF 86  Orlando  10 - 15 March (Back-to-back with IEEE 802) Comcast & NBC Universal
	IETF 87  Berlin  28 July - 2 Aug  Host and Sponsors Sought
	IETF 88  Vancouver  3 - 8 November  Host Sought

2014 - Hosts sought
	IETF 89	London
	IETF 90	Toronto
	IETF 91   Honolulu	

2015 - Hosts sought
	IETF 92	Dallas
	IETF 93	Europe
	IETF 94	Yokohama  WIDE

---

From: Mary Barnes <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 15:39:43 -0500

People also should be aware that Dallas has major transit and highway work
underway right now in particular North of the airport.  By 2015 (2014
actually), you will be able to take light rail (orange line) from the
airport to downtown:
http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/orangeline.asp

Mary.

---

From: Arturo Servin <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 22:37:04 -0500

So "Americas" was actually "North America".

	Well, it went the possibility to have one in central or south america, what at shame. At least until IETF 98 in March 2017 no IETF down the south of Rio Grande.

	May I ask the IAOC, what are the impediments to have one IETF in Latin America?

Regards,
as

---

From: Alejandro Acosta <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 00:19:09 -0430

Hi All,
  In my humble opinion I totally agree with Arturo. So far I do know
several cities in Latin America and I believe Sao Paulo (Brazil) or
Cancun (Mexico) might be a good options. Of course there are many more
good cities, those ware the first two that came to my mind.
  I hope IETF 100 can be done over there.

See you,

Alejandro,

On 8/15/12, Arturo Servin <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 	Well, it went the possibility to have one in central or south america, what
> at shame. At least until IETF 98 in March 2017 no IETF down the south of Rio
> Grande.
>

---

From: joel jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 22:14:58 -0700

>    I hope IETF 100 can be done over there.
Notably Sao Paulo gets a train line from GRU in time for the worldcup in 
theory, which would be a substantial accessibility improvement.

Some locations in the southern hemisphere where attendees hail from have 
even more painful routing than normal to GRU e.g. syd. The observation 
would be that it's a long-haul for all but a handful of attendees.

---

From: Mark Andrews <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 18:17:28 +1000

> would be that it's a long-haul for all but a handful of attendees.

And it would be ~$1000 (AUD) more than Vancouver was from Sydney.

		SYD -> SCL -> GRU  21:40
		GRU -> SLC -> SYD  24:30

-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: [email-masked]

---

From: "John Levine" <[email-masked]>
Date: 16 Aug 2012 18:31:07 -0000

>http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/orangeline.asp

Somehow it just won't be the same if we don't have to wade through
waist deep water.

R's,
John

---

From: "Fred Baker (fred)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 18:59:29 +0000

> 	May I ask the IAOC, what are the impediments to have one IETF in Latin America?

It was investigated and dropped, having gotten hotel pricing and found it unusually high. I'm told that there is further discussion targeting finding ways to reduce that. We have had similar investigations and decisions in other places. You'll note that the IAOC is routinely tarred and feathered over prices...

---

From: Tony Hansen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 15:48:53 -0400

ah, the memories ...

     Tony Hansen

---

From: "Carlos M. martinez" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 18:07:50 -0300

Fond memories of my first IETF... We were stuck at a highway exit for 4
hours unable to either cross the swollen river that had been a side road
minutes before or to go back.

:=)

~Carlos

---

From: Bob Hinden <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 14:12:00 -0700

Arturo,

[Reducing the cc: list to just the IETF and IAOC lists]

The IAOC seriously investigated a venue in South America for IETF92, but based on the data we collected it did not meet the criteria for IETF meetings.  We are continuing to talk with the group that suggested the venue and are also looking at other venues in that region for future meetings.  

We have open meeting slots in 2015-2017.

Bob
IAOC Chair

---

From: Arturo Servin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 18:15:20 -0300

Bob,

	Thanks! It is very nice to hear that you were seriously considering adding new venues for the IETF meetings.

	Hopefully you will find something suitable and somehow not very hard to go for everybody in the future.

Regards,
as

---

From: "John R Levine" <[email-masked]>
Date: 16 Aug 2012 17:23:25 -0400

> minutes before or to go back.

I got to DFW, called the place I was staying (a motel across the street 
from the venue) who told me that the water was several feet deep in front, 
so I snagged an overpriced room at the airport Marriott for the night.

>>> Somehow it just won't be the same if we don't have to wade through

Regards,
John Levine, [email-masked], Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
"I dropped the toothpaste", said Tom, crestfallenly.

---

From: Behcet Sarikaya <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 16:41:49 -0500

Folks, as a Dallas resident I have to let you know that the flooding
we had in 2006 happened after a long period of draught and the rain
was very welcome to the people at that time, may be not so much of it
of course :-).

It was a natural event that happens rarely in Dallas, in fact since
2006, it has not happened again. We do get stormy weather and a few
hour delays in DFW, so far, that's all.

Please do not equate Dallas to floods :-).

Regards,

Behcet

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 4:23 PM, John R Levine <[email-masked]> wrote:
> I got to DFW, called the place I was staying (a motel across the street from
> the venue) who told me that the water was several feet deep in front, so I
> snagged an overpriced room at the airport Marriott for the night.
>
>

---

From: Mary Barnes <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 16:49:40 -0500

It is impossible to predict Dallas weather and I'd be the last person to
say I had any idea what the weather would be in March 2015.  March has some
of the most dramatic weather changes and differences - very much the lion
and the lamb.  However, I've lived in Dallas for 29 years and that was only
the 3rd time I had encountered a flash flood of that ilk.  However, I also
think that the Anatole is in one of the worse locations for flooding (right
next to the Trinity River).

That all said, Dallas has not done anything to prevent this sort of
flooding (with 2006 being the most severe recent flooding).   There is a
bond proposal to do so:
http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Dallas-considers-bond-package-136675208.html
I guess it's a remote possibility something will be done before the meeting
in 2015.  This article references the 2006 flood.  As it does seem it might
just be time for a severe flood if we don't have one by then ;)

Mary.

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Tony Hansen <[email-masked]> wrote:

>>> http://www.dart.org/about/**expansion/orangeline.asp<http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/orangeline.asp>
>>>

---

From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:48:44 -0400

It is possible that Brazil will be looking to host various
international conferences ahead of the Olympics as 'practice runs'.
China did that and so have other countries.

Given the Government of Brazil's interest in things Internetish it
might be an opening.

-- 
Website: http://hallambaker.com/

---

From: Wes Hardaker <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 07:06:04 -0700

Behcet Sarikaya <[email-masked]> writes:

> 2006, it has not happened again.

That's because we haven't been back yet.
-- 
Wes Hardaker
SPARTA, Inc.

---

From: Robert Raszuk <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 21:05:56 +0200

Hi Bob,

Is there any way to broaden the scope of IAOC choice and provide the 
candidate locations which would meet IETF criteria by any IETF member ?

For example once I know the criteria I could check around in Poland to 
see if there is any place which would satisfy the future IETF venue.

I am sure friends from South America would be glad to conduct similar 
local research in their neighborhood. So would others from other 
continents.

Are the criteria for IETF meetings published or is this some sort of top 
secret (for example how much the venue may cost) ?

Could we all contribute via a wiki page ? Could we make the IETF choice 
of location an open process ?

Thx,
R.

> The IAOC seriously investigated a venue in South America for IETF92,
> but based on the data we collected it did not meet the criteria for
> IETF meetings.  We are continuing to talk with the group that
> suggested the venue and are also looking at other venues in that
> region for future meetings.
>
> Bob IAOC Chair

---

From: joel jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 12:15:13 -0700

On 8/17/12 12:05 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> Are the criteria for IETF meetings published or is this some sort of 
> top secret (for example how much the venue may cost) ?
>
> Could we all contribute via a wiki page ? Could we make the IETF 
> choice of location an open process ?
Hotel contracts by their nature need to be negotiated under mutual NDA  
unless you want all the vendors in the region to mysteriously arrive at 
the same lower bound.

---

From: Robert Raszuk <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 21:20:34 +0200

> Hotel contracts by their nature need to be negotiated under mutual
 > NDA unless you want all the vendors in the region to mysteriously
 > arrive at the same lower bound.

All hotel rates are wide open and published on IETF web page. It's an 
interesting NDA which permits open disclosure ;-)

Besides hotel is least worry as we do know the IETF rates for the last 
few years and it is quite easy to check with any hotel if they are 
willing to meet those targets or not.

R.

---

From: joel jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 12:38:43 -0700

> interesting NDA which permits open disclosure ;-)
The room rate is...
> willing to meet those targets or not.

A week long meeting involving ~1200 people, dozens meeting rooms, plus 
ancillary meeting, receptions, takeover and operation of a network, av 
support, and catering is a rather different beast.

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 16:34:33 -0400

--On Friday, August 17, 2012 21:20 +0200 Robert Raszuk
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> Besides hotel is least worry as we do know the IETF rates for
> the last few years and it is quite easy to check with any
> hotel if they are willing to meet those targets or not.

Actually, we don't (although one can deduce a lot of it from the
IAOC budget and other materials).  What we know is the room
rates in the conference hotels.  We don't know the meeting room
charges (including charges for rooms used by the IESG, IAB,
IAOC, Nomcom, etc., etc.), the catering rates and rules
(including rules about outside food), any charges associated
with Internet service, various facility charges not included in
any of the above, any accommodation arrangements that presumably
lower costs to the IETF such as free or upgraded rooms, and so
on for what I assume is a fairly long list.  Depending on the
hotel and negotiations, some of those are "free" (i.e., bundled
into the room rates for those staying in the hotel), others are
not.

And those of us who have been disturbed by the patterns of room
rates in the primary hotel would probably be very unhappy if
some average or ceiling on those rates were treated as an
acceptable target.

   john

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 18:40:28 -0400

--On Friday, August 17, 2012 16:44 -0400 Dave Crocker
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>> Actually, we don't 
> except for:
>    http://iaoc.ietf.org/mfstatement_detail.html
> 
> might be enough detail for the concern being raised here.

I would hope so (and thanks for the link).  My more general
concern is/was associated with the comment about "targets" and
getting into a situation in which some members of the community
start doing their own negotiating and site visits and then get
upset if the IAOC says "no" to whatever they propose.  Certainly
there is not enough information in those reports to turn this
into a process in which the IAOC decisions become mechanical.

best,
   john

---

From: David Morris <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 16:58:04 -0700 (PDT)

On Fri, 17 Aug 2012, joel jaeggli wrote:

> > Besides hotel is least worry as we do know the IETF rates for the last few
> > years and it is quite easy to check with any hotel if they are willing to
> > meet those targets or not.
> 

Since folks contributing as Robert has suggested can't enter into
actual negotiations, that is probably one factor best left to a
formal inquiry. But it seems to me that the question for which
local advocates could gather information is the facility qualification
in terms of the requirments. I'd guess that IAOC creates a strawman
requirement for the meeting which will list criteria like sizes and
types of meeting facilities.

That strawman reveals a requirment, not any NDA covered negotiation.
For this discussion, it should include an analysis of travel time
and costs from some common major hubs in NA, Europe, SA, Asia as
I assume this data would be part of the IAOC decision process
and it should help if the local advocates do the travel
research.

---

From: Michal Krsek <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 09:54:18 +0200

Hi,

> willing to meet those targets or not.

Price for attendee rooms is only a small part of the contract.

                             MK

---

From: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:29:39 -0400

We are paid well to design protocols because designing protocols that
work well in practice is a tricky art that is best practiced by experts
in the field.

But negotiating all the arrangements for a complex technical conference
is a straightforward matter of comparing the published room rates of
various hotels and can be successfully accomplished by any literate
person who takes an interest in doing it.

Now I'm off to do my own dental work.  That left molar has been
bothering me...

Dale

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 16:44:36 -0400

except for:

d/

-- 
 Dave Crocker
 bbiw.net

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:12:20 -0700 (PDT)

Dale,

We actually like to have a little fun with it. At the World IAOC 
Headquarters (WIAOCH) we have a huge world map and a set of darts.

After having some drinks to put us in the right mood, we start
tossing darts at the wall and rolling specially designed dice where 
each face has logos and names such as "Hilton," "Starwood," "Hyatt,"
"Marriott," "Fairmont," and "Low Rent." Our designated driver tries
to keep track of it all, and at the end of the meeting we dispatch
a randomly selected set of our friends to do "site visits." They are
expected to report back to us with useful information such as "the
in-room Internet sucked and was expensive," but in reality our 
selection relies more on the use of game theory and chance (hence
the dice). We tried once to pick a location with the longest train
ride, but the community didn't seem to like it...

We also sometimes write protocol specs, just to keep up with the rest
of you.

Ole

:-)

Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
Cisco Systems
Tel: +1 408-527-8972   Mobile: +1 415-370-4628
E-mail: [email-masked]  URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj
Skype: organdemo

---

From: Glen Zorn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 11:51:42 +0700

> person who takes an interest in doing it.

And that's undoubtedly why the IAOC is packed with professional meeting 
organizers!

> Now I'm off to do my own dental work.  That left molar has been

Why not go to the IAOC?

---

From: "Ole Jacobsen (ole)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 06:27:46 +0000

Glen,

Maybe you've missed the fact that the IAOC has a rather excellent contractor that does meeting planning for a living?

Maybe you prefer my darts version, oh well :-)

Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor & Publisher
http://cisco.com/ipj

Sent from my iPhone

On 21 Aug 2012, at 06:52, "Glen Zorn" <[email-masked]> wrote:

> And that's undoubtedly why the IAOC is packed with professional meeting organizers!
> 
>>

---

From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:37:34 +0900

> And that's undoubtedly why the IAOC is packed with professional

looks to me as if the iaoc knows what they do not know and have the
sense to contract it out to pros.  unlike the amateurs on list who have
never organized a medium-sized meeting such as the ietf in their lives
but can tell everyone else how to do it.

sorry, but enough is enough.

randy

---

From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 20:04:50 -0400

>>>>> "Randy" == Randy Bush <[email-masked]> writes:
    Randy> sorry, but enough is enough.

I still do not understand visiting a tourist destination (Orlando) 
during it's peak (March).   I also don't understand two meetings in a
row on the US east coast. 

-- 
Michael Richardson
-at the cottage-

---

From: Pelletier Ray <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 20:52:34 -0400

> row on the US east coast. 

The first, Atlanta, IETF 85, was slipped to 2012 to accommodate an opportunity to go to Asia (Beijing) in Nov 2010, and the second is Orlando, IETF 86, in March 2013 to close on an opportunity to do a back-to-back meeting with IEEE 802.  Orlando was booked first then the stars aligned for Beijing and we couldn't pass it up.  The Hilton Atlanta contract permitted a postponement of two years without penalty, so we took advantage of the provision.

Ray
IAD

---

From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 10:52:42 +0900

> row on the US east coast.

there are lots of things i do not understand.  i try to focus on those
i need to in order to do good work.  that's hard enough.

randy

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 10:12:05 -0700

> see if there is any place which would satisfy the future IETF venue.

   http://www.ietf.org/meeting/hosting-an-ietf.html

d/
-- 
 Dave Crocker
 Brandenburg InternetWorking
 bbiw.net

---

From: "John Levine" <[email-masked]>
Date: 22 Aug 2012 20:11:38 -0000

>   http://www.ietf.org/meeting/hosting-an-ietf.html

That's about how to be a meeting host, and it's mostly about terminal
rooms and social events.

Is there a list anywhere of minimum requirements without which it's
not even worth looking at a venue?  I'd expect that if a place doesn't
have (as some examples) a meeting room big enough for a plenary, a set
of sufficently large meeting rooms for sessions, a place for a
terminal room, a place to have coffee and snacks, and the ability to
provision Internet access in meeting rooms and guest rooms, forget it.

Regards,
John Levine, [email-masked], Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly

PS: Meter-deep water running in the streets is presumably optional.

---

From: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:18:12 -0400

> provision Internet access in meeting rooms and guest rooms, forget it.

Down a ways on the referenced page, there is a link to

http://www.ietf.org/meeting/hotel-logistics.html

which is a basic list of venue requirements.

Dale

---

From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 20:04:15 -0400