Subject: Re: Orlando time for human language draft discussion

From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 03:47:38 -0800

Hi all,

I created a Doodle poll to see if we can find a time in Orlando to 
meet face to face.

Doodle poll for time at Orlando to discuss open issues and moving 
forward with Human Language Negotiation: 
http://doodle.com/uwedikez6etwsf39

Link to current version (-02) of draft: 
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gellens-negotiating-human-language-02.txt

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
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Ignorance is nothing more than indifference to what is before us;
we have only to pay attention--and we are paying attention in a way,
but to pretty noise, the newer the better.
--Wyatt Mason, review of E.E. Cummings biography, Harper's May 2005.

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From: Peter Saint-Andre <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2013 09:35:40 -0700

I replied, sorry about the delay. It looks like Thursday lunch would
work well.

On 3/5/13 4:47 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I created a Doodle poll to see if we can find a time in Orlando to meet
> face to face.
> 
> forward with Human Language Negotiation: http://doodle.com/uwedikez6etwsf39
>

---

From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 09:43:47 -0800

Hi everyone,

It looks like Thursday lunch (11:30-1:00) works well for everyone who 
has responded so far.  Let's plan on that for now.

At 9:35 AM -0700 3/9/13, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

>  It looks like Thursday lunch would
>  work well.
>

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A child of five would understand this.  Send somebody to
fetch a child of five.        --Groucho Marx, "Duck Soup"

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From: Eric Burger <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 08:45:18 -0400

Confirmed? Venue?

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From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 06:36:54 -0800

Thursday lunch (11:30-1:00) it is.  I'll make a reservation at The 
Tropicale (the cafe in the Caribe Royal hotel attached to the 
convention center).

Everyone: please let me know if you can make it so I can make sure we 
have the right size table.

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Consultants are mystical people who ask a company for a number and then
give it back to them.

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From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 06:38:51 -0800

Hi Everyone,

Thursday lunch (11:30-1:00) it is.  I'll make a reservation at The 
Tropicale (the cafe in the Caribe Royal hotel attached to the 
convention center).  Please let me know if you can make it so I can 
make sure we have a large enough table.

Thank you.

>  Hi everyone,
>
>  It looks like Thursday lunch (11:30-1:00) works well for everyone 
> who has responded so far.  Let's plan on that for now.
>

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The whole dream of democracy is to raise the proletarian to the level
of stupidity attained by the bourgeois.            --Gustave Flaubert

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From: Harald Alvestrand <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 16:06:59 +0100

Sorry for barging in late on this thread, but quick questions:

- what's the right mailing list to post to on this one?
- have everyone read RFC 3282 (the standalone "accept-language" spec)?

Seems to me the desired semantic is more accept-language than 
content-language.

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From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 18:16:49 +0000

My understanding was that the idea was to label a particular media stream, rather than (for example) a SIP body.

Different media streams could have different labels.

Keith

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf
> Of Harald Alvestrand
> Sent: 10 March 2013 15:07
> To: Randall Gellens
> Cc: Ari Keranen; [email-masked]; Alexey Melnikov; Gunnar Hellstrom; DRAGE,
> Keith (Keith); Peter Saint-Andre; [email-masked];
> Flemming Andreasen; Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo) Tschofenig; Peter Saint-Andre;
> Brian Rosen; [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Update on Orlando time for human language draft
> discussion
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mmusic mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic

---

From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 12:08:14 -0800

At 6:16 PM +0000 3/10/13, Keith (Keith) DRAGE wrote:

>  My understanding was that the idea was to label a particular media 
> stream, rather than (for example) a SIP body.
>

Keith is right.  As an example, SIP might be used to setup a call 
with an audio stream using English and a video stream using American 
Sign Language.

SDP also allows other protocols besides SIP to be used to establish 
the session.

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I have opinions of my own -- strong opinions -- but I don't
always agree with them.         --George W. Bush, US President

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From: Harald Alvestrand <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 20:29:25 +0100

On 03/10/2013 09:08 PM, Randall Gellens wrote:
> Keith is right.  As an example, SIP might be used to setup a call with 
> an audio stream using English and a video stream using American Sign 
> Language.
>

OK, but that's not what I really was thinking about....

RFC 3282 (and its predecessors as part of the HTTP protocol) 
distinguished between two distinct fields:

- "Here's what I'm willing to accept" - where prioritization is important
- "Here's what I'm going to use" - where prioritization is not only 
unimportant, it's meaningless

It might be good if whatever comes out of this discussion supports 
making that distinction.

You may also want to think about how language tags interact with 
direction - if you're talking to an interpreter, where audio going one 
way is English and what comes back is in Spanish, are you able to mark 
the RTP session (if that's what you're marking, and not the media 
stream) as "sending English, receiving Spanish"?

But this level of detail doesn't really belong on the IETF list - which 
list should we use?

---

From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 14:00:06 -0800

At 8:29 PM +0100 3/10/13, Harald Alvestrand wrote:

>>>   My understanding was that the idea was to label a particular 
>>> media stream, rather than (for example) a SIP body.
>>>
>> with an audio stream using English and a video stream using 
>> American Sign Language.
>>
>>  SDP also allows other protocols besides SIP to be used to 
>> establish the session.
>

Do you think that the proposal in the draft now does not do so?  It 
proposes using an SDP media attribute in the offer/answer to 
negotiate language (i.e., offer includes prioritized languages and 
answer has the highest priority language supported by the other end).

> direction - if you're talking to an interpreter, where audio going 
> one way is English and what comes back is in Spanish, are you able 
> to mark the RTP session (if that's what you're marking, and not the 
> media stream) as "sending English, receiving Spanish"?

The proposal in the draft is that this be media level, not session 
level (in part because different media may use different languages, 
e.g., spoken and signed).

>
>  But this level of detail doesn't really belong on the IETF list - 
> which list should we use?

I suppose the mmusic list, since the proposal uses SDP.

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