Subject: Mentoring

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:23:16 -0400

Hi,

Two suggestions that seemed easier to send in email than to
stand in the mic line that I'd encourage people to think about...

(1) I've found the Newcomer's Meet-and-Greet very useful in
finding newcomers I want to keep and eye on and try to help move
along and my personal instincts are to go for diversity in those
decisions.  But those sessions are open only to WG Chairs and
IAB and IESG members --people who tend to be among the more
overextended in terms of schedules-- in addition to the
newcomers.  So those sessions are more useful for giving
newcomers an opportunity to meet relevant WG Chairs (for
example) than for setting up any sort of mentoring relationship.
It may be worth thinking a bit about some other ways of
establishing relevant contacts, perhaps (as is done with ISOC
IETF Fellows) even getting those relationships in place before
the newcomer shows up.

(2) This applies to leadership development as well as to the
diversity and mentoring issues in particular, but the focus on
WG Chairs and I* members tends to exclude and underutilize what
should be an important resource.  There are a bunch of people
around who have retired from formal leadership positions (and
who are trying to stay retired).  At least in principle, we have
more flexible time than, e.g., an IESG member.  We should be
available for mentoring -- it is probably the most important
thing we can do.  But the system isn't well-organized now to
utilize us in that way and probably we should be thinking
together about how to improve that.

   john

---

From: Mary Barnes <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:23:58 -0500

> IETF Fellows) even getting those relationships in place before
[MB]  What I find interesting is that there was 200+ newcomers, but I
certainly didn't find that many at the meet and greet.  I have to
wonder whether this doesn't have to do with the overlap between Sunday
tutorials and this event.  I think that needs to be fixed.  Another
comment about the meet and greet is that I see far more WG chairs
chatting with one another as opposed to newcomers.  While I find that
there is rarely new comers to RAI area, just welcoming these folks is
really important independent of technical area of interest.  I also
try to find the WG chairs that are in that area.  I regularly talk to
at least 10 newcomers - and do chide some of you all that are not
chatting with newcomers ;) I can't imagine as a newcomer approaching a
group of WG chairs to introduce myself.  The chairs should be actively
seeking out newcomers at these event.

One question I have is whether there isn't a list for newcomers to ask
questions that some of us can be on to help them before they get to
the meeting?  It is incredibly rare for a newcomer to ask questions on
the IETF discussion.   Also, it might help to setup a mentoring group
and related mailing list and perhaps a wiki where folks that are
willing to be mentors put their names and areas of focus and
expertise.  This could be helpful to both newcomers and folks that are
interested in learning about new areas.   [/MB]
> together about how to improve that.
[MB] Yeah.  Again, if we had a mentor group and mailing list that
could be helpful.  [/MB]

---

From: Scott Brim <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:49:12 -0400

On 03/14/13 08:23, Mary Barnes allegedly wrote:
> the meeting?  

<like>

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:53:15 -0400

(removing the separate copy to the IESG -- ADs who are
interested can presumably follow this thread)

--On Thursday, 14 March, 2013 07:23 -0500 Mary Barnes
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>...
>> finding newcomers I want to keep and eye on and try to help
>> move along and my personal instincts are to go for diversity
>> in those decisions.  But those sessions are open only to WG
>> Chairs and IAB and IESG members --people who tend to be among
>> the more overextended in terms of schedules-- in addition to
>...

> [MB]  What I find interesting is that there was 200+
> newcomers, but I certainly didn't find that many at the meet
> and greet.  I have to wonder whether this doesn't have to do
> with the overlap between Sunday tutorials and this event.  I
> think that needs to be fixed.

Agreed, but see below.

>  Another comment about the meet
> and greet is that I see far more WG chairs chatting with one
> another as opposed to newcomers.

I think that is at least partially due to its being the first
time the WG Chairs and their ADs get to see each other during
the week, so it becomes an opportunity to grab each other "for a
minute" and synchronize.  Rethinking the timing/scheduling would
help there too.   While it would disrupt enough other things to
need careful thought, it might be that we should just throw the
newcomers into the main reception and then do a short
meet/greet/intro after that.  Probably others have better ideas.

>  While I find that there is
> rarely new comers to RAI area, just welcoming these folks is
> really important independent of technical area of interest.  I
> also try to find the WG chairs that are in that area.  I
> regularly talk to at least 10 newcomers - and do chide some of
> you all that are not chatting with newcomers ;) I can't
> imagine as a newcomer approaching a group of WG chairs to
> introduce myself.  The chairs should be actively seeking out
> newcomers at these event.

Concur.
 
> One question I have is whether there isn't a list for
> newcomers to ask questions that some of us can be on to help
> them before they get to the meeting?  It is incredibly rare
> for a newcomer to ask questions on the IETF discussion.

I think that a list on which newcomers could introduce
themselves a bit as well as asking questions would be helpful.
I think doing some mentor-newcomer matching before the meeting
(as ISOC does) would be very useful and newcomer introductions
and people approaching them would facilitate that, maybe without
needing a "process".  

> Also, it might help to setup a mentoring group and related
> mailing list and perhaps a wiki where folks that are willing
> to be mentors put their names and areas of focus and
> expertise.  This could be helpful to both newcomers and folks
> that are interested in learning about new areas.   [/MB]

Qualified "yes".  I'm somewhat afraid of setting up more
processes that, even if only by the time involved, tends to
isolate either newcomers or would-be mentors from other IETF
efforts.  It might also encourage some IETF participants to say
"there is a nice list of people willing to help, and they are
all organized, so I don't have to take responsibility".   I
believe that these efforts will succeed only if almost all of us
take responsibility.  Even a list on which newcomers can ask
questions can be a problem unless we have good ideas about the
weaning process.   I'm not against a list and wiki, just feeling
that we should understand the possible risks and be prepared to
deal with them.

FWIW, I find that most of my more effective mentoring (measured
in terms of later productivity of people in the IETF) has
occurred when I spot someone who appears capable and energetic
but is off-course and step in with private notes and offers.
That may be just a matter of style and certainly discriminates
against those who, for whatever reason, don't speak up.  For the
latter, I find the meet-and-greet helpful, but it has its own
problems as you point out.

Two other suggestions along the same line:

(1) The "smiley faces" are probably a good idea, but, IMO, very
badly executed, starting with handing them to the most busy
people and having no obvious way for people who are less busy
and might be more accessible to get one.  We are also getting
close to terminal badge-clutter overload -- I can't keep track
any longer and would assume the typical newcomer would be in
"eyes glazed over" status.  Worse, to someone new to the
community, those decoration can start to look like admission
symbols for various cabals from which they are excluded.  If we
have to use badge decorations, I'd like to see a reference card
that would fit in the badge holder available at registration and
the community treating putting anything on a badge that isn't
shown on the reference card as a antisocial act. Happy to
discuss that offline with anyone responsible.

(2) Our "newcomers" model doesn't distinguish likely long-term
participants from tourists.  I think we should be welcoming to
the tourists but, in terms of, e.g., scarce mentoring resources,
spending time on them is a bad optimization.  In addition
"newcomer" is really not a one-shot thing.  I don't know how to
identify and create a ribbon distinction between "newcomer and
possible long-term participant" and "tourist" and it is probably
impractical, but a ribbon in a different color for second-time
attendees might be helpful.  

As was said last night, if someone wearing a "newcomer" badge
seems to be either lost or isolated, approaching them is usually
A Good Thing.  And that principle should apply for two or three
meetings, not just one.
  
best,
   john

---

From: Spencer Dawkins <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:59:32 -0500

> attendees might be helpful.

If we have (at this meeting) potentially 800 people trying to help 200 
people engage, that's still a tall order. Ack.

> A Good Thing.  And that principle should apply for two or three

I wonder if the target audience for SOMEthing might be "two-comers" - 
people at their SECOND meeting.

Spencer

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:13:15 -0400

>> questions that some of us can be on to help them before they get to

+1

And well advertised on one or more IETF web pages.

What else can be done to vector newbies (and mentors) to the list?

 > people at their SECOND meeting.

Perhaps better to merely have 'newcomers' refer to an initial phase of 
IETF involvement, rather than thinking of it as first-contact.

d/

-- 
  Dave Crocker
  Brandenburg InternetWorking
  bbiw.net

---

From: Lou Berger <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:33:57 -0400

I think such a list is a great idea. Perhaps it would be good to have 
this available as a 'safe place' for any (newbie, twobie or whatever) 
to ask questions, and just call it a 'mentors' list...

Lou

---

From: Ted Lemon <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:15:09 +0000

> And well advertised on one or more IETF web pages.

We can also give newbies information when they register, and have the registration folks call their attention to it.   It's a five-second thing when handing them their registration packet.

---

From: "Fred Baker (fred)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:51:35 +0000

>> questions that some of us can be on to help them before they get to

Yes, <like>

One thing that I suspect newcomers would also like a pointer to is http://www.ietf.org/wg/chair-photos.html, and clarity on the use of the data tracker to identify internet drafts in a working group. This might come down to a newcomer's page (as opposed to a pointer to the slides from the newcomer's tutorial) off the meeting page.

---

From: Seiichi Kawamura <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:55:29 +0900

I cannot belive that I'm seeing this thread on an IETF list.
I run a NOG, and we've been through this many times and we're alread
over it. Don't call them 'newbies'. Don't think that having the
chairs or whatevers talk to new comers on sunday mornings will make them
happy and increase their involvement.

It's all about PEER involvement.

The attitude that the COMMUNITY has. Do you talk to your friends about IETF?
Are you proud of it? Will you encourage your friends to come? Does it make
sense to you? Is the community working towards a common goal?
Most importantly, are we listening? or are we justing pretending to.

Quoting Metallica "and nothing else matters"

Regards,
Seiichi

---

From: Ted Lemon <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:23:21 +0000

On Mar 14, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Seiichi Kawamura <[email-masked]> wrote:
> Don't call them 'newbies'.

The term is not meant to be offensive—I'm sorry that it came off that way.   All of us are newbies from time to time as we wander through the various working groups in the IETF.   I became a newbie again this IETF.   It's a nice state to be in if you have the support of the community.

It's certainly true that the attitude of the community is what ultimately makes the difference, but how do we change that?   I also really like your point about talking about the IETF with friends.   But I think that there is a role for chairs and other long-time IETFers to play here.

---

From: S Moonesamy <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 04:11:16 -0700

Hi Seiichi,
>over it. Don't call them 'newbies'. Don't think that having the

Yes.

>It's all about PEER involvement.

Agreed.

>Most importantly, are we listening? or are we justing pretending to.

Maybe I am listening but I do not really understand the person who is 
talking to me.

>Quoting Metallica "and nothing else matters"

Yes. :-)

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

---

From: Tony Hansen <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 09:25:13 -0400

> One thing that I suspect newcomers would also like a pointer to is http://www.ietf.org/wg/chair-photos.html, and clarity on the use of the data tracker to identify internet drafts in a working grou…

The photos are only good if they're present: fewer than 2/3 of the 
chairs have their pictures there.

     Tony

---

From: Arturo Servin <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 09:35:04 -0400

Along the thread there have been great ideas on how to do mentoring to
newcomers; I just want to point out something.

	Mentoring is not only about WG chairs, IAB and IESG, it seems to me
that we want to pass the problem to them. My opinion is that anyone that
has come to the IETF three or more times, has written a draft (even
though it never became an RFC), has sent comments or review and I+D, has
gone to the mic or any combination of it could become a good mentor.

	So, please take mentoring as an activity for each one of us interested
in help new people get involved in the IETF and not just pass the
problem to our leaders.

Cheers,
as

P.D. Not replying to any comment in particular.

---

From: Peter Saint-Andre <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 09:38:25 -0400

On 3/15/13 9:35 AM, Arturo Servin wrote:
> 
> Along the thread there have been great ideas on how to do mentoring
> to newcomers; I just want to point out something.
> 
> Mentoring is not only about WG chairs, IAB and IESG, it seems to
> me that we want to pass the problem to them. My opinion is that
> anyone that has come to the IETF three or more times, has written a
> draft (even though it never became an RFC), has sent comments or
> review and I+D, has gone to the mic or any combination of it could
> become a good mentor.
> 
> So, please take mentoring as an activity for each one of us
> interested in help new people get involved in the IETF and not just
> pass the problem to our leaders.

A big +1 to that!

Peter

- -- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/

---

From: Yoav Nir <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 13:54:01 +0000

I agree that this is not just for the formal leaders. But mentoring is also not for everyone. I would guess that WG chairs, IAB and IESG members are more likely to know who would be good mentors for a particular group or area. Eugene Terrell would not be a good mentor, despite having authored 16 drafts. Even ignoring such extreme examples, not everyone is good at teaching others. While the socially-inept stereotype does not fit engineers in general, and fits this community even less, there are some of us who are like that, and would not make good mentors.

But I think a combination of self-selection and WG chair and IESG prodding can lead to a large enough group of mentors.

I intend to send to the mailing lists of my groups a message asking "who on this list is going to attend an IETF meeting or <groupname> meeting for the first time in Berlin. Please email me or <other chair> directly." Then if we get any replies, we can set up a get-together with those people before the actual session. If it's more than 1 or 2, we can get some other people we consider leaders to come as well. We can use such a get-together to talk to them about what they're interested in, and to ask them if they'd like to be considered the next time we're looking for an editor.

On Mar 15, 2013, at 9:35 AM, Arturo Servin <[email-masked]>
 wrote:

> Email secured by Check Point

---

From: Arturo Servin <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 10:19:44 -0400

Yes, not everyone can be a good mentor. You need the willing to do it,
some experience in the IETF, and perhaps some communication abilities,
besides that, I see no problem for anyone to be one.

/as