Subject: Improving reading of drafts and other documents

From: Robert Moskowitz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 15:13:19 -0400

This is perhaps a different topic, but something that I would like to share.

How often are you, like me, going up and down in a draft or rfc to look 
at and find things.  Lots of scrolling around perhaps like me.

After my accident, with my right arm in a sling and my right hand close 
to useless, I needed an alternative to a mouse with a little scroll wheel.

I asked on the Fedora user list, as I am a long time Fedora user 
(switched my notebook from CentOS to Fedora6 and since then CentOS is 
servers only and Fedora my dayly adventure).  A number of cohorts on the 
list recommended an optical trackball with a scrolling wheel.  Not only 
did this make it possible for me to work left-handed, but I continue to 
use it left-handed and keep my right hand on the keyboard.

A scrolling wheel (~7cm OD) makes moving up and down in a doc in any app 
very quick and very low stress.

It does not travel well, but here at my desk, it makes a considerable 
improvement to my frequent reading of docs and messages.

I am not going to 'sell' any particular brand or model.  There are a 
number to choose from....

Take care, all.

Bob

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From: Carsten Bormann <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 21:27:39 +0200

On Aug 13, 2019, at 21:13, Robert Moskowitz <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> alternative to a mouse with a little scroll wheel.

These days, trackpads are the best input for scrolling (two-finger mode).
Not all trackpads are created equal, though.
(I would expect that the Apple Magic Trackpad 2 [1] is still the best add-on to an existing system that money can buy, but I haven’t followed the market, as trackpads are built-in to most laptops at this point.)

It also often helps to read drafts in an editor (I use emacs), so I can use good keyboard shortcuts for scrolling, split-screen view, search, marking, backtracking etc.  Haven’t got around to implementing section folding…

Grüße, Carsten

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Trackpad_2

---

From: Mary B <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 14:59:48 -0500

Trackpads are awful IMHO.  My hand is cramped after a short time doing that
- maybe it's the longer index finger.  And, actually based on the
characteristics described in this article a bunch of IETFers must have a
ring finger that's longer than index finger:
http://discovermagazine.com/2013/may/04-finger-length-ratio-can-predict-aggressive-behavior-and-risk-of-disease
.
And, my fingers in general are longer than average.   Personally, if I
really want to review a draft thoroughly, I have to harm trees and have red
pen in hand.

I travel with my large mouse with a trackball and scrolling wheel.   I
tried the mini-mice and those are almost as bad for me.

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 2:28 PM Carsten Bormann <[email-masked]> wrote:

> (I would expect that the Apple Magic Trackpad 2 [1] is still the best
> add-on to an existing system that money can buy, but I haven’t followed the
> market, as trackpads are built-in to most laptops at this point.)
>
> It also often helps to read drafts in an editor (I use emacs), so I can
> use good keyboard shortcuts for scrolling, split-screen view, search,
> marking, backtracking etc.  Haven’t got around to implementing section
> folding…
>
> Grüße, Carsten
>

---

From: Carsten Bormann <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 22:20:48 +0200

> Trackpads are awful IMHO.  My hand is cramped after a short time doing that

If it’s an Apple trackpad, maybe you are holding it wrong.  SCNR.

More generally speaking, habits in correctly (or incorrectly) using input devices are more important than the devices themselves.  I try to teach beginning CS students to be very mindful about their work environment and how they use it.  That is, of course, hard to do when you are in the flow, but even the longest flow ends and that is a good time then for reflection on many levels whether you worked to the best of your abilities (and that includes reflecting on how your body feels and whether you used your devices right).

Yes, we are all different, but, speaking from the anecdotes I witness every week, most people who dislike trackpads have only tried the usual abysmal ones (Lenovo? OMG) or haven’t invested the time to actually become good in using them (given up too early or simply not considered that one needs to invest into one’s craft).

Grüße, Carsten

---

From: Mary B <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 15:50:58 -0500

I have a Mac and have had one for 11 years. Yes, I am told they are
superior trackpads. But, again, I have very long fingers and I have tried
to use the trackpad while sitting at IETF meetings over that entire period
and like I said, it just does not work for me.  My hand gets very cramped.
But, I also have carpal tunnel and require a really good ergonomic setup at
home to avoid ongoing pain.  I also have very long arms for my height, so
it is a very cramped position for me overall. So, no, it's not at all the
fact that I've given up too early and no it's not that I haven't invested
time.  I actually have exceptional fine motor skills.  Folks here continue
to amaze me with this notion that they know everything and that because
someone doesn't agree with them, it means that person is wrong.  You can
find anecdotal evidence of trackpads causing problems for a lot of folks.
 It is also simply a matter of personal taste.

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 3:20 PM Carsten Bormann <[email-masked]> wrote:

> More generally speaking, habits in correctly (or incorrectly) using input
> devices are more important than the devices themselves.  I try to teach
> beginning CS students to be very mindful about their work environment and
> how they use it.  That is, of course, hard to do when you are in the flow,
> but even the longest flow ends and that is a good time then for reflection
> on many levels whether you worked to the best of your abilities (and that
> includes reflecting on how your body feels and whether you used your
> devices right).
>
> Yes, we are all different, but, speaking from the anecdotes I witness
> every week, most people who dislike trackpads have only tried the usual
> abysmal ones (Lenovo? OMG) or haven’t invested the time to actually become
> good in using them (given up too early or simply not considered that one
> needs to invest into one’s craft).
>
> Grüße, Carsten
>
>

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 04:24:24 +0000 (UTC)

> These days, trackpads are the best input for scrolling (two-finger mode).

in your (rather wrong) opinion.

scrollwheels FTW. Less movement, more precision.

Lloyd Wood [email-masked] http://about.me/lloydwood

---

From: Behcet Sarikaya <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 10:02:42 -0500

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 3:00 PM Mary B <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Trackpads are awful IMHO.  My hand is cramped after a short time doing
> that - maybe it's the longer index finger.  And, actually based on the
> http://discovermagazine.com/2013/may/04-finger-length-ratio-can-predict-aggressive-behavior-and-risk-of-disease .
> And, my fingers in general are longer than average.
>

> Personally, if I really want to review a draft thoroughly, I have to harm
> trees and have red pen in hand.
>
> +1 unfortunately.

---

From: Behcet Sarikaya <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 10:04:45 -0500

> number to choose from....
Bob, you are one of a kind. No body else could be like you.

Keep it up man.

Behcet

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From: "Pete Resnick" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 15:03:06 -0500

Just to make sure you're comparing Apples to Apples:

On 13 Aug 2019, at 15:50, Mary B wrote:

> time.  I actually have exceptional fine motor skills.

Carsten is referring to the external Apple Magic Trackpad, not the one 
built into the laptops.

I have pretty bad RSI in my right wrist and have used the Apple external 
trackpad with a little gel wrist rest for years. The pad is at a proper 
angle (unlike the laptop ones) and is quite easy to use. (And the 
button-less click mechanism is the most ingenious piece of engineering 
I've ever seen.) I have quite the happy wrist.

None of this is to say it will work for everyone; your wrist and/or 
fingers may vary. But I do think it's worth a go for many people who 
haven't tried it. It has been much easier on my wrist than trackballs 
and mice that I've used in the past.

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick http://www.episteme.net/
All connections to the world are tenuous at best

---

From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 18:02:20 -0400

> marking, backtracking etc.  Haven’t got around to implementing section

I have two extra macros that create an "attention" stack.
  http://www.sandelman.ca/mcr/el/mcr-attention.el

In particular, it works across buffers/files.
This lets me mark (meta-shift-N) where I am as I go off to track down a
reference, and then pop back to where I was.  I should add something that
looks for "rfcXXXX" and takes me to that.

Alas, I don't use them as often as I ought to.

While the ctags system also has such a stack, I found I wanted two dimensions
of access.

Annoying while editing .xml or .mkd is that I often don't know the section
number I'm in (while reviewers tell me edits by section number).  So I have
to search by title.  And then, when entering targets for internal xref target=
I don't recall which anchors I've used, or if I used an anchor.

--
Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 11:44:29 +0200

Le 13/08/2019 à 21:13, Robert Moskowitz a écrit :
> How often are you, like me, going up and down in a draft or rfc to
> look at and find things.  Lots of scrolling around perhaps like me.
> 
> After my accident, with my right arm in a sling and my right hand
> close to useless, I needed an alternative to a mouse with a little
> scroll wheel.
> 
>  servers only and Fedora my dayly adventure).  A number of cohorts on
> the list recommended an optical trackball with a scrolling wheel.
> Not only did this make it possible for me to work left-handed, but I
> continue to use it left-handed and keep my right hand on the
> keyboard.
> 
> A scrolling wheel (~7cm OD) makes moving up and down in a doc in any
> app very quick and very low stress.
> 

I would consider here two things.

One is indeed the use of the trackball.  It is a good thing even though
it adds a little bit of strain on the thumb muscles on hand.  Additional
support for hand may be necessary to avoid that the thumb shakes.  Also,
logitech put a vertical mouse on the market recently, whose scroll wheel
is easier to action, in a more natural manner, although probably still
not appropriate when right hand is hardly usable.  Still in this
direction, one could consider the use of smart pens.  A smart pen can
scroll easily with left hand, although the selection of words needs some
exactitude, which is typically missing from left hand.

The other thing I would consider seriously is to reduce the quantity of
things to search.  Just search in brain memory and, if not found, maybe
it is not worth considering.  It is not because the web has a huge book
that one needs to access it all.  And there will always be important
information somewhere that any search will not find.  In this sense,
then start to just write like on a typewriter.  Just type with the
fingers of the left hand.  If something needs to be searched before
writing, then write 'modulo the information that could exist elsewhere
and that I dont know'.

Alex