From nobody Fri Nov 1 05:06:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB4E312084F for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 05:06:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=it.uc3m.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BEUjZHoB1Hk6 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 05:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52b.google.com (mail-ed1-x52b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED0A2120838 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 05:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id l25so7372554edt.6 for ; Fri, 01 Nov 2019 05:06:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=it.uc3m.es; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=otQ2qta23d5CE2J5ryVSg7VFYG92+EYt+USCS+/NA8I=; b=cpNHU0BP+HGEA0Y1LNfuZdjb0WwqWCptgrk23avvNTsw2aWq6mYmsU4HDdQXek0RNG cDww3zbGVIZIKxofE63weMp0EFwzq9CmXIt5jnxX/q8dCuIDzIqD8jnE5T10xk15xA2n hTBoeaRW5T504rRtuvKA/hm0e3TxDeV10tyn/0Rvxjw0ct97NwLk7FQzFioHt3tw1Mfn OHczmBeeIgSFQ9bOQOI8i0vlNsGfpXdyjZTbLv2o90+Bjvq2ym43XDKfTXq81wwRDBAP BYYFgj1hQiL5ty99VYrt0mG+0Si5tJ2d5ltecKpSG9oxnJKtA6WCJGfvEG/Xty+rZG1H bgzg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=otQ2qta23d5CE2J5ryVSg7VFYG92+EYt+USCS+/NA8I=; b=q6vmTChnRjQrry9J52Nt5L3DHBFus6e9BtWPi5Ehyv7BTS6I+kF/7OUvY/YTM4DHWQ Hy+v9FaZUTEblQDJwpaD0UK5xjc/82qrc9t6SSO5NkX33Z4UNrch6iz/6GhgFIpeYo6v UN8tf4AAlJ7Rkeru0xUk8AtEGUGyNc5GU4gni9s34DJEVsvUge07ofWj3wfcpgEVUc+v +JViFecTiNx2+DkRJz4VvfHEsE5s409tIcSgluSo84I4c/+GlqvpbtdPxvu16lW9O7R0 DNwn+j1pL0fzDFMnA9lQ137y81hhlRuSnWKCrFuB5uXSlJoyccvY/hNNy4SUVP3uq94s Q+zg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUS5MH3ORQ9McbHAFyDSwmhqyeES/NZPxet0/1m+GdcRm+WmttP uBzVHlLE/ZRHhMG5h947b4HlyY0nPEA+QitRxEBAlw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxkRLMpQuBtOOTQYHg6T5NpbGP5D5lUxldQuLofiB1b87hPfnNA6audNVw75cakpSVEf4Qs+t+XgAMxaqyn9fQ= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:c9d9:: with SMTP id hk25mr9461852ejb.74.1572609966195; Fri, 01 Nov 2019 05:06:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157103982375.24746.491736148532050112@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 13:05:49 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-dmm-distributed-mobility-anchoring-13 To: Yoshifumi Nishida Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org, draft-ietf-dmm-distributed-mobility-anchoring.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, dmm Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000067f7a2059647ca59" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 12:06:12 -0000 --00000000000067f7a2059647ca59 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Yoshi, We've just posted a new revision (-14) addressing all your comments. Thanks! Carlos On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 9:38 AM Yoshifumi Nishida wrote: > Hi Carlos, > Thanks for the response. I put my comments in lines. > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 4:20 AM CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO < > cjbc@it.uc3m.es> wrote: > >> Dear Yoshifumi, >> >> Thanks a lot for the review. Please check inline below for some comments >> from my side. >> >> On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 9:57 AM Yoshifumi Nishida via Datatracker < >> noreply@ietf.org> wrote: >> >>> Reviewer: Yoshifumi Nishida >>> Review result: Almost Ready >>> >>> This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review >>> team's >>> ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written >>> primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the >>> document's >>> authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to >>> the IETF >>> discussion list for information. >>> >>> When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this >>> review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC >>> tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review. >>> >>> Summary: This document is almost ready for publication as an >>> informational RFC, >>> but it will be better to clarify the following points. >>> >>> 1: The examples shown in the draft look behave conveniently. >>> For examples, in the figure 3 case, the flow is somehow terminated >>> before >>> the MN moves and is re-initiated after the movement has finished. >>> However, I >>> believe there should be the cases where applications don't aware of >>> network >>> changes and transmit data while migrating, which may cause packet >>> drops, >>> delays and timeouts, etc. I think this draft should clarify the >>> treatments >>> of these cases. Is it out of scope of the draft? Or, do some >>> components >>> generate ICMP messages to give some hints to the applications, or >>> provide >>> buffering features to mitigate the side effects? >>> >> >> [Carlos] I guess you mean Figure 4, right? In that figure, we try to >> explain what would happen if there is no actual mobility support, meaning >> that a communication flow does not need such mobility support. This might >> happen because the flow stops before the movement (as shown in the figure) >> or also because the application can deal with the mobility itself (no >> mobility at the IP layer). We don't explicitly mention that second case >> because it is not in the scope of the draft (IP mobility). We can better >> clarify the scope in the text. >> > > Sorry for confusion. Yes, the data flow is explained in Figure 4. > What I wanted to mention was how the flow can stop it without mobility > support. If there's no mobility support, the app should not be able to know > when network change will happen. So, I am thinking that in some cases, the > flow may not able to stop before the movement. > I am guessing this case would be a major case than the case described in > the draft. > Or, is there any available approach here? > >> >> >>> >>> 2: Page 8: >>> "A MN will need to choose which IP prefix/address to use for each flow >>> according to whether it needs IP mobility support or not." >>> >>> -> It seems to me that the draft implicitly suggests the use of >>> draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility here. >>> If so, I think it would be better to state more explicitly. Or, >>> do we >>> have other options? >>> >> >> [Carlos] We can definitely add an explicit reference to >> draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility, but I'd mention it as an example. I don't >> have another option in mind, but we can leave it open. >> > > Yes, referring as an example is fine. I just thought if this approach can > be used, then it might be better to explain it explicitly. > >> >> >>> 3: Page 10: >>> "the initial anchor remains the anchor and forwards traffic" >>> >>> -> could be "anchor remains and the anchor.."? >>> >> >> [Carlos] Maybe "mobility anchor remains playing that role and forwards >> traffic"? >> > > Works for me. Thanks! > -- > Yoshi > -- Special Issue "Beyond 5G Evolution": https://www.mdpi.com/journal/electronics/special_issues/beyond_5g --00000000000067f7a2059647ca59 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Yoshi,

We've just posted a new= revision (-14) addressing all your comments.

Than= ks!

Carlos

On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 9:38 AM Yo= shifumi Nishida <nsd.ietf@gmail.co= m> wrote:
Hi Carlos,=C2=A0
Thanks for the response. I put my comments in lines.

On Fri, Oct 18= , 2019 at 4:20 AM CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es> wrote:
Dear=C2=A0Yoshifumi,

Thanks a lot for the review. Plea= se check inline below for some comments from my side.

On Mon, Oct 14, = 2019 at 9:57 AM Yoshifumi Nishida via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Reviewer: Yoshifumi Nishid= a
Review result: Almost Ready

This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review team&#= 39;s
ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the document&= #39;s
authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the I= ETF
discussion list for information.

When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC
tsv-art@ietf.org = if you reply to or forward this review.

Summary: This document is almost ready for publication as an informational = RFC,
but it will be better to clarify the following points.

1: The examples shown in the draft look behave conveniently.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0For examples, in the figure 3 case, the flow is somehow termin= ated before
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the MN moves and is re-initiated after the movement has finish= ed. However, I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0believe there should be the cases where applications don't= aware of network
=C2=A0 =C2=A0changes and transmit data while migrating, which may cause pac= ket drops,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0delays and timeouts, etc. I think this draft should clarify th= e treatments
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of these cases. Is it out of scope of the draft? Or, do some c= omponents
=C2=A0 =C2=A0generate ICMP messages to give some hints to the applications,= or provide
=C2=A0 =C2=A0buffering features to mitigate the side effects?

[Carlos] I guess you mean Figure 4, right? In that f= igure, we try to explain what would happen if there is no actual mobility s= upport, meaning that a communication flow does not need such mobility suppo= rt. This might happen because the flow stops before the movement (as shown = in the figure) or also because the application can deal with the mobility i= tself (no mobility at the IP layer). We don't explicitly mention that s= econd case because it is not in the scope of the draft (IP mobility). We ca= n better clarify the scope in the text.
=
Sorry for confusion. Yes, t= he data flow is explained in Figure 4.=C2=A0
What I wanted to mention was how the flow can stop it w= ithout mobility support. If there's no mobility support, the app should= not be able to know when network change will happen. So, I am thinking tha= t in some cases, the flow may not able to stop before the movement.=C2=A0
I am guessing this case wo= uld be a major case than the case described in the draft.
= Or, is there any available approach here?<= /font>
=C2=A0

2: Page 8:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0"A MN will need to choose which IP prefix/address to use = for each flow
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 according to whether it needs IP mobility support or not.&quo= t;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-> It seems to me that the draft implicitly suggests= the use of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-dmm-ondemand-mobility here.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 If so, I think it would be better to state more= explicitly. Or, do we
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 have other options?

[Carlos] We can definitely add an explicit reference to draft-ietf= -dmm-ondemand-mobility, but I'd mention it as an example. I don't h= ave another option in mind, but we can leave it open.

Yes, referring as an example is fine. I just t= hought if this approach can be used, then it might be better to explain it = explicitly. =C2=A0
<= div dir=3D"ltr">


3: Page 10:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "the initial anchor remains the anchor and forwards traf= fic"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-> could be "anchor remains and the anchor..&qu= ot;?

[Carlos] Maybe "mobility anch= or remains playing that role and forwards traffic"?
<= /blockquote>

Works for me. Thanks!
--
Yoshi=C2=A0


--
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Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from steel.local ([IPv6:2601:647:4300:2290:58d7:f6f9:ea40:333a]) (authenticated bits=0) by v2.bluepopcorn.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id xA1H1KDu031178 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:01:25 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bluepopcorn.net; s=supersize; t=1572627686; bh=mf6YIoCXCDo+ArDbUjUr+0XIjk4dRpnWgrw5EMtuSzc=; h=To:From:Subject:Date; b=DMWqau9iNi9jvjya4SyVPhJRqezWGk9bAv8BU9QK3TVXz+hbheOYQitz6VcndaGGs fa8pqix2+Kr8ajBeQLuB067ZHNPBBvxmtP1zTBQB8o0PAxvSuE5U/s5S9Mi4K+Ntr9 7MWVUuB2KKT099xjNOd5t0TWux2W8bhg24/zMfRE= To: IETF From: Jim Fenton Subject: GitHub blockage in Spain Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=fenton@bluepopcorn.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFJNz0MBEADME6UoNSsTvSDJOdzL4yWfH4HTTOOZZPUcM/at38j4joeBb2PdatlwCBtk 9ZjupxFK+Qh5NZC19Oa6CHo0vlqw7V1hx1MUhmSPbzKRcNFhJu0KcQdniI8qmsqoG50IELXN BPI5OEZ3chYHpoXXi2+VCkjXJyeoqRNwNdv6QPGg6O1FMbB+AcIZj3x5U18LnJnXv1i+1vBq CxbMP43VmryPf8BLufcEciXpMEHydHbrEBZb/r7SBkUhdQXjxRNcWOLeYvOVUOOrr1c+jvqm DEbTWUJVRnUro/WpZQBffFnymR0jjkdAa8eOVl/nF2oMLbaBsOMvxCRSSEcGhuqwbEappNVT 1nuBTbkJT/GGcXxc+lEx9uNj86oYC4384VZJMTd1BRI4qPXImNZCIdmpKegK743B6xxN6Qh1 Tg167pn9429JENQE/AFIVX5B/gpsg7Aq+3rmz9H6GbfovPvFV3TBTgsHCHAMC8XU+S4fhcqN PN0lbUeyb7g6wxaE+dYqC7TExx7G3prw4v66y0qS7ow/Cfw8XXOEkaFQ4XwP7nvfILT+9CcU yS8I40vlDFU9Wnt56CbGz0ZVQgHnwyPXL+S9kCcIwRLFx1M79s6T6qwX1TXadfpbi1uIw7XG TiPDT8Pk6i2y22oSSROyYD4D+wOhVkkvO0S8iZ3+LhAYUx86nwARAQABtCNKaW0gRmVudG9u IDxmZW50b25AYmx1ZXBvcGNvcm4ubmV0PokCVQQTAQIAPwIbAwYLCQgHAwIGFQgCCQoLBBYC AwECHgECF4AWIQS1nUkJe2fEXbvBaacbJaiwFdCfvgUCXVD9ggUJDORhvgAKCRAbJaiwFdCf vgiSEACd3Nem63zL2C6daCFfRzOANkf30Q8AvaRVwhfdFxs+5vETCzbqctrtIAHeqncXjm9G uEJWxecAiHZXKoWUEFECMp3+Saznw0np+c722M4k9xI+mxqbcE0qgpYQgA8zbS/Lbds3f/bk /00jrQg4VMkumONlh+RZVwxAsnWp8efrJsNTn0QOPZavAkPEN59wfyWQ3O4pNY8i3zum8Wge 8NS4BBMyG0fmjWgUq0K2QrTD4AKBslM2IWCLECypP1AOfHKmmTACKFOnzJJ4KspUw3hdBnS1 fvudUC8u26Q3T6rHosRqxGmgW7sQWwAusgMSa/A6zxR6soEBSsMT5Tf+VHebuz1FWE4ogrvJ InvewfYSCYzOQamYYGArcBtAzU00pUzW2Or7SlwZPHHy2EfMd0zvT7mwSYLwwwcCsWc1O/CI xHGea7PBgO3TdR0Ex254yc+NTyxF3isBC/fodF9aNWF6x6SV3VKYJ3U2uqS9ga85dZz8Qeps MwlSEGRVhVVWGbSxy0GxV5Up0yX4vl0kI0c7Tt57JCOoRBpn/lTK/7IEtZK6/uiw98KCy+BM uF7HPsgXjd/AQjSsZIJgDyVY/y7niduqhW2izNEdhV77htVbKHRf2SfJQNudWOIcOhUTlddH kOSjet+MDso61JxrFV4j/8wFno7NwpPIhD//HvKAiLkCDQRSTc9DARAAwZaXYs3OzGlpqvSH 3HR9GjSzIeP0EmsBCjpfIdZbQBwQ3ZREiMGInNxV+xkdjLDg0ctrWzUCUe3plWe5NJkpjqm+ KMc7GKhyeWJ5MZRtVrh0VpFTqi8UwYPWumAYqE1y/U1me/zHpfG9EDwdSYqMkPF76Fy5W+vh ZP2ILKaY8qWSLyH8TPl5mFGBypfT8Q6UuzlRs2aTbsTtBX/qwH7gztMRJSjQtYo20AqCgBBH IA/0xV5qDH7CVYyKyPQ4tJLQ8/xyTysUS5fewrj8lZo/G9SaNtC3CEvrJYwyA0nvYB6+hJPM qMP/tyRXM/9XY3qO4Vxuc+m5fYbTZa5GYAZNNuB5dvqI1U0sFTWBEbpAeabqCQ40ZnFSj+t1 tBuwfj4ey/oJ78WRyg5+VTvPKRRubOmZcnzj5yfTS3VGxAZb4Nsj1S2f3KLP0Z+Cv4dt893I 2JWTChw7jA1omF0QTQaBq140n084PFndBHudrZ3cz+APC89iie2HQ4jGQldXZXnGySHnHlA+ WUyZ9wgOplW9F4Q/Lps1bnuh5VttPVpNfjX8hiV48al+b+ut4nfzXAripIRWF3TL72/6JqgE KNhRKyRn0S6BidieSyHWzqJR3Roi/YNTvyXyLh6i6jtByb3FbnhYf/9olobDpj0E+kTemLrw owre85gwupSphqlzVSUAEQEAAYkCPAQYAQIAJgIbDBYhBLWdSQl7Z8Rdu8FppxslqLAV0J++ BQJdUP9SBQkM5GOPAAoJEBslqLAV0J++vZoP/1shJ+5iImGzvGUTTDJcAX6Wha+22QP0G51Z QGZbeB0gE+gDmRwd2yw0cO3y1sPoTJliUSuZ3DFIjv8CLBgDlrkUnijBWbi5YznsAZkH0vKG ESGzinJC6y/Nzf2TZokKiOaYrTYcZx8x2wxjNO+zsihm/rvhV/YnHEYd9dlV/MjAL3xtHU/9 fNcTDtF3RchADyVCxlqrRUkFj61dHxU+U5JRftyIliLltsy2Nlr4uAsxNX+tpAH2D2HLmjwx bV2fpTnFCVImtuo6ZqNZ8SMk1Xq0fBBdo3acBw42kL/qGIKS9x3NWEy8vsmQXn0QqNBd1Q62 9ghm82mHMTRKnOXqkMgICpZ0HffPf3p7zMkEqWptgEHxE6ZHm9hJMGEf8RED9DCYh+N1uFaM 7ndQPPFKlj80sGmNF9+01mO53hrxeL/WAdGox/STpTb2BDpiyrLdT/2R0vJNEfMxBBYlw1gc g8mPEwHwZ940/qql7e41TkDGUZa2a1WegKLj8hK1pgDDBptcdIvlvuk284jOZ2/jDyaBDsMf 310OoJchJ3977odtSCArybQIwMjTx0rv6dqjsuqP89jqlrGV6izqf1n4p4FNrBSWOSRGaoWD JJVHL4YUhP44G5xDBCtp3TqatLa5F2Rgxj50EFIzOuu9Pg1tBCPP1G+0EiikVTdDkC63X4RG Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:01:14 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 17:01:29 -0000 I'm hearing that Spain is blocking GitHub: https://reclaimthenet.org/github-spain-blocked-catalan-protests/ If that were to continue, how would we handle that for IETF 108 (next July in Madrid)? -Jim From nobody Fri Nov 1 10:04:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 650881208BB for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:04:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id upPF6rS_WS4x for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puck.nether.net (puck.nether.net [204.42.254.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA9FA120019 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.5.219] (unknown [63.98.234.170]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by puck.nether.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0B71554034E; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 13:04:02 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: GitHub blockage in Spain From: Jared Mauch In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 13:04:00 -0400 Cc: IETF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2E1AD01E-3621-446B-BA53-D1BAAB3E9EDD@puck.nether.net> References: To: Jim Fenton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 17:04:05 -0000 > On Nov 1, 2019, at 1:01 PM, Jim Fenton wrote: >=20 > I'm hearing that Spain is blocking GitHub: >=20 > https://reclaimthenet.org/github-spain-blocked-catalan-protests/ >=20 > If that were to continue, how would we handle that for IETF 108 (next > July in Madrid)? Relevance? Often these blocks are either done in local DNS or at the local ISP = level. When IETF rolls in, the network is often not part of this. = You=E2=80=99ve seen this work well in countries where the local blocking = might have been an issue, the most prominent of them being IETF in = China. I get that some people don=E2=80=99t like GitHub and if you want to ask = IETF to run a gitlab instance or similar it would likely mitigate the = issue as well. - jared= From nobody Fri Nov 1 10:10:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F981120BEA for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:10:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HWwidH4Llj6H for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4977120BF7 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:10:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id t8so13784021qtc.6 for ; Fri, 01 Nov 2019 10:10:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ivNiep5XwZnpxVbxOTKFsjc/D2sFxmYjeWO69YVu3oo=; b=WfYutb+LtVyB5evKvIVvQ+tPr6J4omCkuXiZlten8emhsJT3YrkYbQiPxJBpZKRyJI OyAf9embuFncEwniW9D1NQlLq6wyfV9SJOFEhlnA7sDkevUDTvxSe2BuQbyhHxWf28zt Y1Ta+6t2FnQYmlpOgz5hg4WQBrGN6/vuj1ObuL+WNvwBG0CSpYCX9YOad8xxsRZcAiO2 yHfZnFV5nx4JeoMm1ARaIVAu1IvJpkG7CF5QTQkubBYnRtZfFfPylZ6KWGN5BOvToCtN nWXAvsS3jhyUY6oPjpW4mg6qNWF3bQdi7jgRMZZUw674pEAY+P5mJGBH/s+zSJOsOV5Y xypg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ivNiep5XwZnpxVbxOTKFsjc/D2sFxmYjeWO69YVu3oo=; b=XY4ac3LirolGbTpZcaYr7vzpSv5owjLL+SVxvxx42ptj2COdyOSQdfI8dSMMQMt26+ ru8YCsnlWa38q6LzcHEbGkyFTa45y9jRayUUELOmLUmGivfz1tJpCRliB66qr4nbKV4S cZlGv+NPdU8tKFPimbULO6dvttL5pnYNOW8VD+2Z4D7iM+LG4EiJeT3RQy3ivFtraGl8 BrlxithB+wDGVUSJfDwFkBY5pPwhwUI65F+y/ds19E8jA2HB4xYwQM9GWmk3PaXPk/s/ 7E789myKDxODqhJhfRE5XpracBykFRA7kMtfGQ+U7NeIcYnVgukqKw1f8A3+pawqBMO9 Eeng== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUWWd01n+NtPS/wbZuW+OJQiJ5IuQcyXJgOCCIdR9rufJh2bz+x wdWy6W7iGYo7bexrQTrhAlo/yOdYlp/cbev/NBudwerl X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzCPPqEKTlUcSr6x9BPLcg+V4VQf6hknpsqL9KDEtObgXVCSyDK1svmvAQG9cxYBUzvq8RXdvd5XRg2ngCcHfI= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:edc9:: with SMTP id i9mr10889257qvr.230.1572628202586; Fri, 01 Nov 2019 10:10:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2E1AD01E-3621-446B-BA53-D1BAAB3E9EDD@puck.nether.net> In-Reply-To: <2E1AD01E-3621-446B-BA53-D1BAAB3E9EDD@puck.nether.net> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 18:09:51 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GitHub blockage in Spain To: Jared Mauch Cc: Jim Fenton , IETF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000611c6d05964c09ae" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 17:10:07 -0000 --000000000000611c6d05964c09ae Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jared, I think Jim's last worry was about IETF network :) The way I read and understand it that having IETF in Madrid indirectly support such Spain gov actions. I suggest we move it to Barcelona. Thx, R. On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 6:04 PM Jared Mauch wrote: > > > > On Nov 1, 2019, at 1:01 PM, Jim Fenton wrote: > > > > I'm hearing that Spain is blocking GitHub: > > > > https://reclaimthenet.org/github-spain-blocked-catalan-protests/ > > > > If that were to continue, how would we handle that for IETF 108 (next > > July in Madrid)? > > Relevance? > > Often these blocks are either done in local DNS or at the local ISP > level. When IETF rolls in, the network is often not part of this. You= =E2=80=99ve > seen this work well in countries where the local blocking might have been > an issue, the most prominent of them being IETF in China. > > I get that some people don=E2=80=99t like GitHub and if you want to ask I= ETF to > run a gitlab instance or similar it would likely mitigate the issue as we= ll. > > - jared > --000000000000611c6d05964c09ae Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jared,

I think Jim's last worry was= about=C2=A0IETF network :) The way I read and understand it that having IE= TF in Madrid indirectly support such Spain gov actions.=C2=A0
I suggest we move it to Barcelona.=C2=A0

Thx,
R.

On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 6:04 PM Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote:
<= /div>


> On Nov 1, 2019, at 1:01 PM, Jim Fenton <fenton@bluepopcorn.net> wrote:
>
> I'm hearing that Spain is blocking GitHub:
>
> https://reclaimthenet.org/githu= b-spain-blocked-catalan-protests/
>
> If that were to continue, how would we handle that for IETF 108 (next<= br> > July in Madrid)?

Relevance?

Often these blocks are either done in local DNS or at the local ISP level.= =C2=A0 When IETF rolls in, the network is often not part of this.=C2=A0 You= =E2=80=99ve seen this work well in countries where the local blocking might= have been an issue, the most prominent of them being IETF in China.

I get that some people don=E2=80=99t like GitHub and if you want to ask IET= F to run a gitlab instance or similar it would likely mitigate the issue as= well.

- jared
--000000000000611c6d05964c09ae-- From nobody Fri Nov 1 10:20:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CDE81200F8 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:20:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=bluepopcorn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4k0em_dDacz2 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from v2.bluepopcorn.net (v2.bluepopcorn.net [IPv6:2607:f2f8:a994::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B235120019 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from steel.local ([IPv6:2601:647:4300:2290:58d7:f6f9:ea40:333a]) (authenticated bits=0) by v2.bluepopcorn.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id xA1HKfSq031416 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:20:42 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bluepopcorn.net; s=supersize; t=1572628842; bh=LvH4UV643ndmSxHC2/gNmDvaRo8DJvhecD+kcsqYiOg=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=cta4lHMislIgZhgeJVyrq8cJFLS5YQ+hX/kiTNTZRTCE2sNzidWXsq/w3FaxV6UPL DSdDKa9Nq773ZvkA+DuQvRWlR+az3XHW6dR9U9/rUfFkyp4ByD+Jglf/EtWx3I0uyF oNfYv1mXq4kfGR8DB2Ml+KH/YQ7MpiIv4qUkHlRM= Subject: Re: GitHub blockage in Spain To: Robert Raszuk , Jared Mauch Cc: IETF References: <2E1AD01E-3621-446B-BA53-D1BAAB3E9EDD@puck.nether.net> From: Jim Fenton Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=fenton@bluepopcorn.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFJNz0MBEADME6UoNSsTvSDJOdzL4yWfH4HTTOOZZPUcM/at38j4joeBb2PdatlwCBtk 9ZjupxFK+Qh5NZC19Oa6CHo0vlqw7V1hx1MUhmSPbzKRcNFhJu0KcQdniI8qmsqoG50IELXN BPI5OEZ3chYHpoXXi2+VCkjXJyeoqRNwNdv6QPGg6O1FMbB+AcIZj3x5U18LnJnXv1i+1vBq CxbMP43VmryPf8BLufcEciXpMEHydHbrEBZb/r7SBkUhdQXjxRNcWOLeYvOVUOOrr1c+jvqm DEbTWUJVRnUro/WpZQBffFnymR0jjkdAa8eOVl/nF2oMLbaBsOMvxCRSSEcGhuqwbEappNVT 1nuBTbkJT/GGcXxc+lEx9uNj86oYC4384VZJMTd1BRI4qPXImNZCIdmpKegK743B6xxN6Qh1 Tg167pn9429JENQE/AFIVX5B/gpsg7Aq+3rmz9H6GbfovPvFV3TBTgsHCHAMC8XU+S4fhcqN PN0lbUeyb7g6wxaE+dYqC7TExx7G3prw4v66y0qS7ow/Cfw8XXOEkaFQ4XwP7nvfILT+9CcU yS8I40vlDFU9Wnt56CbGz0ZVQgHnwyPXL+S9kCcIwRLFx1M79s6T6qwX1TXadfpbi1uIw7XG TiPDT8Pk6i2y22oSSROyYD4D+wOhVkkvO0S8iZ3+LhAYUx86nwARAQABtCNKaW0gRmVudG9u IDxmZW50b25AYmx1ZXBvcGNvcm4ubmV0PokCVQQTAQIAPwIbAwYLCQgHAwIGFQgCCQoLBBYC AwECHgECF4AWIQS1nUkJe2fEXbvBaacbJaiwFdCfvgUCXVD9ggUJDORhvgAKCRAbJaiwFdCf vgiSEACd3Nem63zL2C6daCFfRzOANkf30Q8AvaRVwhfdFxs+5vETCzbqctrtIAHeqncXjm9G uEJWxecAiHZXKoWUEFECMp3+Saznw0np+c722M4k9xI+mxqbcE0qgpYQgA8zbS/Lbds3f/bk /00jrQg4VMkumONlh+RZVwxAsnWp8efrJsNTn0QOPZavAkPEN59wfyWQ3O4pNY8i3zum8Wge 8NS4BBMyG0fmjWgUq0K2QrTD4AKBslM2IWCLECypP1AOfHKmmTACKFOnzJJ4KspUw3hdBnS1 fvudUC8u26Q3T6rHosRqxGmgW7sQWwAusgMSa/A6zxR6soEBSsMT5Tf+VHebuz1FWE4ogrvJ InvewfYSCYzOQamYYGArcBtAzU00pUzW2Or7SlwZPHHy2EfMd0zvT7mwSYLwwwcCsWc1O/CI xHGea7PBgO3TdR0Ex254yc+NTyxF3isBC/fodF9aNWF6x6SV3VKYJ3U2uqS9ga85dZz8Qeps MwlSEGRVhVVWGbSxy0GxV5Up0yX4vl0kI0c7Tt57JCOoRBpn/lTK/7IEtZK6/uiw98KCy+BM uF7HPsgXjd/AQjSsZIJgDyVY/y7niduqhW2izNEdhV77htVbKHRf2SfJQNudWOIcOhUTlddH kOSjet+MDso61JxrFV4j/8wFno7NwpPIhD//HvKAiLkCDQRSTc9DARAAwZaXYs3OzGlpqvSH 3HR9GjSzIeP0EmsBCjpfIdZbQBwQ3ZREiMGInNxV+xkdjLDg0ctrWzUCUe3plWe5NJkpjqm+ KMc7GKhyeWJ5MZRtVrh0VpFTqi8UwYPWumAYqE1y/U1me/zHpfG9EDwdSYqMkPF76Fy5W+vh ZP2ILKaY8qWSLyH8TPl5mFGBypfT8Q6UuzlRs2aTbsTtBX/qwH7gztMRJSjQtYo20AqCgBBH IA/0xV5qDH7CVYyKyPQ4tJLQ8/xyTysUS5fewrj8lZo/G9SaNtC3CEvrJYwyA0nvYB6+hJPM qMP/tyRXM/9XY3qO4Vxuc+m5fYbTZa5GYAZNNuB5dvqI1U0sFTWBEbpAeabqCQ40ZnFSj+t1 tBuwfj4ey/oJ78WRyg5+VTvPKRRubOmZcnzj5yfTS3VGxAZb4Nsj1S2f3KLP0Z+Cv4dt893I 2JWTChw7jA1omF0QTQaBq140n084PFndBHudrZ3cz+APC89iie2HQ4jGQldXZXnGySHnHlA+ WUyZ9wgOplW9F4Q/Lps1bnuh5VttPVpNfjX8hiV48al+b+ut4nfzXAripIRWF3TL72/6JqgE KNhRKyRn0S6BidieSyHWzqJR3Roi/YNTvyXyLh6i6jtByb3FbnhYf/9olobDpj0E+kTemLrw owre85gwupSphqlzVSUAEQEAAYkCPAQYAQIAJgIbDBYhBLWdSQl7Z8Rdu8FppxslqLAV0J++ BQJdUP9SBQkM5GOPAAoJEBslqLAV0J++vZoP/1shJ+5iImGzvGUTTDJcAX6Wha+22QP0G51Z QGZbeB0gE+gDmRwd2yw0cO3y1sPoTJliUSuZ3DFIjv8CLBgDlrkUnijBWbi5YznsAZkH0vKG ESGzinJC6y/Nzf2TZokKiOaYrTYcZx8x2wxjNO+zsihm/rvhV/YnHEYd9dlV/MjAL3xtHU/9 fNcTDtF3RchADyVCxlqrRUkFj61dHxU+U5JRftyIliLltsy2Nlr4uAsxNX+tpAH2D2HLmjwx bV2fpTnFCVImtuo6ZqNZ8SMk1Xq0fBBdo3acBw42kL/qGIKS9x3NWEy8vsmQXn0QqNBd1Q62 9ghm82mHMTRKnOXqkMgICpZ0HffPf3p7zMkEqWptgEHxE6ZHm9hJMGEf8RED9DCYh+N1uFaM 7ndQPPFKlj80sGmNF9+01mO53hrxeL/WAdGox/STpTb2BDpiyrLdT/2R0vJNEfMxBBYlw1gc g8mPEwHwZ940/qql7e41TkDGUZa2a1WegKLj8hK1pgDDBptcdIvlvuk284jOZ2/jDyaBDsMf 310OoJchJ3977odtSCArybQIwMjTx0rv6dqjsuqP89jqlrGV6izqf1n4p4FNrBSWOSRGaoWD JJVHL4YUhP44G5xDBCtp3TqatLa5F2Rgxj50EFIzOuu9Pg1tBCPP1G+0EiikVTdDkC63X4RG Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:20:36 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6CE8C9F7FEBF4F99AE6B90E8" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 17:20:45 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6CE8C9F7FEBF4F99AE6B90E8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While I think that blocking something like GitHub is a bad thing to do, I'm not suggesting we step into another's country's politics. My question is mostly about the practicalities of how attendees will be able to use GitHub if the block is still in place then. We are doing an increasing amount of IETF work in GitHub, and attendees need access to it to do other work as well. If we can negotiate an arrangement that will exempt the IETF network from the block, that would (IMO) be a minimally acceptable solution. Of course, attendees staying offsite would still need to use a VPN or something to access GitHub from their hotel, AirBNB, etc. and that's still a bad situation. On 11/1/19 10:09 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Jared, > > I think Jim's last worry was about=C2=A0IETF network :) The way I read = and > understand it that having IETF in Madrid indirectly support such Spain > gov actions.=C2=A0 > > I suggest we move it to Barcelona.=C2=A0 > > Thx, > R. > > On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 6:04 PM Jared Mauch > wrote: > > > > > On Nov 1, 2019, at 1:01 PM, Jim Fenton > wrote: > > > > I'm hearing that Spain is blocking GitHub: > > > > https://reclaimthenet.org/github-spain-blocked-catalan-protests/ > > > > If that were to continue, how would we handle that for IETF 108 > (next > > July in Madrid)? > > Relevance? > > Often these blocks are either done in local DNS or at the local > ISP level.=C2=A0 When IETF rolls in, the network is often not part = of > this.=C2=A0 You=E2=80=99ve seen this work well in countries where t= he local > blocking might have been an issue, the most prominent of them > being IETF in China. > > I get that some people don=E2=80=99t like GitHub and if you want to= ask > IETF to run a gitlab instance or similar it would likely mitigate > the issue as well. > > - jared > --------------6CE8C9F7FEBF4F99AE6B90E8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

While I think that blocking something like GitHub is a bad thing to do, I'm not suggesting we step into another's country's politics.

My question is mostly about the practicalities of how attendees will be able to use GitHub if the block is still in place then. We are doing an increasing amount of IETF work in GitHub, and attendees need access to it to do other work as well. If we can negotiate an arrangement that will exempt the IETF network from the block, that would (IMO) be a minimally acceptable solution. Of course, attendees staying offsite would still need to use a VPN or something to access GitHub from their hotel, AirBNB, etc. and that's still a bad situation.

On 11/1/19 10:09 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote:
Jared,

I think Jim's last worry was about IETF network :) The way I read and understand it that having IETF in Madrid indirectly support such Spain gov actions. 

I suggest we move it to Barcelona. 

Thx,
R.

On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 6:04 PM Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote:


> On Nov 1, 2019, at 1:01 PM, Jim Fenton <fenton@bluepopcorn.net> wrote:
>
> I'm hearing that Spain is blocking GitHub:
>
> https://reclaimthenet.org/github-spain-blocked-catalan-protests/
>
> If that were to continue, how would we handle that for IETF 108 (next
> July in Madrid)?

Relevance?

Often these blocks are either done in local DNS or at the local ISP level.  When IETF rolls in, the network is often not part of this.  You’ve seen this work well in countries where the local blocking might have been an issue, the most prominent of them being IETF in China.

I get that some people don’t like GitHub and if you want to ask IETF to run a gitlab instance or similar it would likely mitigate the issue as well.

- jared
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Lopez" To: Jim Fenton CC: Robert Raszuk , Jared Mauch , IETF Subject: Re: GitHub blockage in Spain Thread-Topic: GitHub blockage in Spain Thread-Index: AQHVkNYVVAY0wSk5PUSjlzcHvzHEUKd2iwkAgAABo4CAAAMAAIAAAx0A Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 17:31:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2E1AD01E-3621-446B-BA53-D1BAAB3E9EDD@puck.nether.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com; x-originating-ip: [95.127.243.21] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 543e22b3-5bba-4e76-ffa8-08d75ef15ec9 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DB3PR0602MB3705: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-forefront-prvs: 020877E0CB x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; 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h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PHrf+asyEZZ1UG3isdNOZ/a+lPjTEfU2i5tJMwb4M5o=; b=YPuj5bgMFwkXxanZeofqwyPmheJIv6s1lKRLrhMmhdw8gtdLpog2JHMcuwi7ULHiY4 aY51XZv4XAjc99vMEWNLdrB0e9eUsg12skL9LPRDu9Cd+caYo0we03tf6Ja1Hii0FqdU 955b+xhTvy6u1ElXnMZt8qKHyMPJ/Q2wPbawwCgW9J6YEdiuBI+CDRMQA6sF/eh6PBWk 18emDDnMpi925kOwS3tTqc0bn11q0GMfYdFncgUR4rUD6wDHr4vwdie/Zimk/uQCj7wr Ndy/w2TWtZ334z9VXJvGdEvBX2GOBnv53fA5/RZKWRKngmaMsvHjytpPXp3HEXgkgbJ5 vjzA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PHrf+asyEZZ1UG3isdNOZ/a+lPjTEfU2i5tJMwb4M5o=; b=YWRzuPiM+/x9tWQrVTV6AmNwCGYfUC7WEtj5YLyb68zBWs8sX52ftlJ/xjrdKWz11A QAZgXAme/xli3CnpMxKvtau/6o1ZIZ8blgPu4YANGd8zy8xA6irvsf+bdJUXJen2leco WgiYE+VgXuiHTvTrFszEXKkoB07io6tiQS5n3WheIDhsWUnQibm+SobCryQwhIm/mkwC PJrQJgM9I2lxTuckzrKT24hZh8Rl7UFwgeDS56r5YHBZy7pQi2SD7nb2FmoeuGu5jN2r XJdAsBf1TeM0xUW3KPXfQQZFA6PtUmjrCuh/7+lDMv4yITsm8UoE3CgkxEq9La33k29P Dmog== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXWT677m96rOwBVMP8saJ0GZMlfh6SkyQDxj6O2F62EV1blNDWV XYKYq4+9ZmtPSHLQtOxYOK6sXNNf0rpFhGI9ondo2LwdIrXwcw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw+oKKj3Ip8w2jIZpeyhiX1Hph3YT/jkSvezNdmdIePygMQkNENbOm6jkO+TLllJoUf4yzJpELkK/VjIm4WP4A= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f455:: with SMTP id r21mr6271893vsn.87.1572629786286; Fri, 01 Nov 2019 10:36:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2E1AD01E-3621-446B-BA53-D1BAAB3E9EDD@puck.nether.net> In-Reply-To: From: MARCELO GABRIEL BAGNULO BRAUN Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 18:36:15 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GitHub blockage in Spain To: Jim Fenton Cc: Robert Raszuk , Jared Mauch , IETF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 17:36:29 -0000 mmm, I am currently in spain and I have been able to access https://github.com/google/proto-quic without any problem. Is there any specific URL or repo that you think it is relevant for the IETF and blocked? I can check it for you if you want. El vie., 1 nov. 2019 a las 18:21, Jim Fenton () escribi=C3=B3: > > While I think that blocking something like GitHub is a bad thing to do, I= 'm not suggesting we step into another's country's politics. > > My question is mostly about the practicalities of how attendees will be a= ble to use GitHub if the block is still in place then. We are doing an incr= easing amount of IETF work in GitHub, and attendees need access to it to do= other work as well. If we can negotiate an arrangement that will exempt th= e IETF network from the block, that would (IMO) be a minimally acceptable s= olution. Of course, attendees staying offsite would still need to use a VPN= or something to access GitHub from their hotel, AirBNB, etc. and that's st= ill a bad situation. > > On 11/1/19 10:09 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > Jared, > > I think Jim's last worry was about IETF network :) The way I read and und= erstand it that having IETF in Madrid indirectly support such Spain gov act= ions. > > I suggest we move it to Barcelona. > > Thx, > R. > > On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 6:04 PM Jared Mauch wrote: >> >> >> >> > On Nov 1, 2019, at 1:01 PM, Jim Fenton wrote: >> > >> > I'm hearing that Spain is blocking GitHub: >> > >> > https://reclaimthenet.org/github-spain-blocked-catalan-protests/ >> > >> > If that were to continue, how would we handle that for IETF 108 (next >> > July in Madrid)? >> >> Relevance? >> >> Often these blocks are either done in local DNS or at the local ISP leve= l. When IETF rolls in, the network is often not part of this. You=E2=80= =99ve seen this work well in countries where the local blocking might have = been an issue, the most prominent of them being IETF in China. >> >> I get that some people don=E2=80=99t like GitHub and if you want to ask = IETF to run a gitlab instance or similar it would likely mitigate the issue= as well. >> >> - jared --=20 MARCELO GABRIEL BAGNULO BRAUN Universidad Carlos III de Madrid From nobody Fri Nov 1 10:37:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCF7F120992 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:37:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1-gzSTAhI0Ga for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34AF2120840 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.102] (p548DCA87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.202.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 474Tsl4SbBzyWf; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 18:37:31 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: GitHub blockage in Spain From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 18:37:31 +0100 Cc: Jim Fenton , IETF , Jared Mauch X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 594322649.441803-a1cc67006b0750870241fc531c5f0393 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <71788D2A-E586-41A1-82C1-89838C2FE9BB@tzi.org> References: <2E1AD01E-3621-446B-BA53-D1BAAB3E9EDD@puck.nether.net> To: "Diego R. Lopez" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 17:37:35 -0000 On Nov 1, 2019, at 18:31, Diego R. Lopez = wrote: >=20 > Just a quick comment: The request from the Spanish police was about = blocking a few repositories in Github being used for purposes related to = violent protests, not by any means to GitHub at large. I wrote before: > One problem with an independent court system is that it sometimes acts = out of a position that is not very well informed about reality. Maybe = our friends at ISOC can reach out, again? (They had to do that before.) Maybe not just the court system :-) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Nov 1 10:38:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A21B120D83 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:38:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=it.uc3m.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vAOGZKZq53gt for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2c.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D271E120D3D for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2c.google.com with SMTP id k1so6889465vsm.0 for ; Fri, 01 Nov 2019 10:38:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=it.uc3m.es; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Q6OnIJCZPKBh056PtHORNk1VNa1Vh7ELgH+7++zmLXk=; b=QppoOYvKbWIUkXVcXAIN/bPXvh6hI0FURJdw0tYrfMO/QbNsJSumXPaACUN7yR6BUC p2u/YlP+TpWK4NH5SrxA069QS+tsg0PcpYunEtDnrpIRM1F72qM3zPVShAHUFeLLd9n7 YJyQM3DlDKHTc3/0FL+UibTV7BfV5762F0YCr1h7iT4wZQPWL1M8/h4ITtBdW8wiJMSi c38aGmWfaa/qynvur0xvWBWxbd6ht831XPftLWmBqYDNNsufRzEL0N9DYRXdhza+Jn7z goAqhAuBNxYKQDSi51fD2s6C68RBbdYnSUdKwVGpSjQBuYcU+ETtSDXzbu7cH6+1Gi6E Z6Sg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Q6OnIJCZPKBh056PtHORNk1VNa1Vh7ELgH+7++zmLXk=; b=FWdAv8UALBDc+SrEXSbgt+f0O5rI05j/eAg7k4akCUOOcvMI/FuyqZ3K60lFvyME0u CcaLEjqLHpwy8KhRuHjH1+GwvlYZvksumS+QSgwnm6c+bEJYidBioFCxkSWX9BuNPFPx BpPqr6doxAhVc8MVp1zNm1ORa6hxxH8/Ph1KYxNp64xs/OW/O3xBVoBws92NXsARrt7P 878FWR0T7wi0Xl8KpdqEHyG0VQeizwf/Pe6mzeq+TPSi2j1ehVpx5jjlvxqAfifNQR37 hqs4mk0r+vuzYhRR8DipCKYSVfyB9eev8ro7pqoJG53eJdWraUvcwVGk/k7PJnuxIhn4 Ko5A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVJrD26pdC1/0Qp6PeDhvoVtjiW0jBh7E9NmGKEpB5Ha1AFA6w/ Jp5L10f22REqBS+99kESc/oFGiieKAKpxFVEEyh1zg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzTqdrGak6BXIfX+DHXM3eCZaDulcVH9bYJKMWCQ7J4jowVhGx6th6dOVWl+7t0zxnn5wMo/1p63O1O3Nvajjw= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f455:: with SMTP id r21mr6275337vsn.87.1572629888870; Fri, 01 Nov 2019 10:38:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2E1AD01E-3621-446B-BA53-D1BAAB3E9EDD@puck.nether.net> In-Reply-To: From: MARCELO GABRIEL BAGNULO BRAUN Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 18:37:57 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GitHub blockage in Spain To: Jim Fenton Cc: Robert Raszuk , Jared Mauch , IETF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 17:38:14 -0000 I meant https://github.com/quicwg (I can also access the google quic one, but this is most the relvant for the IETF) El vie., 1 nov. 2019 a las 18:36, MARCELO GABRIEL BAGNULO BRAUN () escribi=C3=B3: > > mmm, I am currently in spain and I have been able to access > https://github.com/google/proto-quic without any problem. Is there any > specific URL or repo that you think it is relevant for the IETF and > blocked? I can check it for you if you want. > > El vie., 1 nov. 2019 a las 18:21, Jim Fenton > () escribi=C3=B3: > > > > While I think that blocking something like GitHub is a bad thing to do,= I'm not suggesting we step into another's country's politics. > > > > My question is mostly about the practicalities of how attendees will be= able to use GitHub if the block is still in place then. We are doing an in= creasing amount of IETF work in GitHub, and attendees need access to it to = do other work as well. If we can negotiate an arrangement that will exempt = the IETF network from the block, that would (IMO) be a minimally acceptable= solution. Of course, attendees staying offsite would still need to use a V= PN or something to access GitHub from their hotel, AirBNB, etc. and that's = still a bad situation. > > > > On 11/1/19 10:09 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > > > Jared, > > > > I think Jim's last worry was about IETF network :) The way I read and u= nderstand it that having IETF in Madrid indirectly support such Spain gov a= ctions. > > > > I suggest we move it to Barcelona. > > > > Thx, > > R. > > > > On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 6:04 PM Jared Mauch wrot= e: > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Nov 1, 2019, at 1:01 PM, Jim Fenton wrot= e: > >> > > >> > I'm hearing that Spain is blocking GitHub: > >> > > >> > https://reclaimthenet.org/github-spain-blocked-catalan-protests/ > >> > > >> > If that were to continue, how would we handle that for IETF 108 (nex= t > >> > July in Madrid)? > >> > >> Relevance? > >> > >> Often these blocks are either done in local DNS or at the local ISP le= vel. When IETF rolls in, the network is often not part of this. You=E2=80= =99ve seen this work well in countries where the local blocking might have = been an issue, the most prominent of them being IETF in China. > >> > >> I get that some people don=E2=80=99t like GitHub and if you want to as= k IETF to run a gitlab instance or similar it would likely mitigate the iss= ue as well. > >> > >> - jared > > > > -- > MARCELO GABRIEL BAGNULO BRAUN > Universidad Carlos III de Madrid --=20 MARCELO GABRIEL BAGNULO BRAUN Universidad Carlos III de Madrid From nobody Fri Nov 1 11:02:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3326120EA1; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 11:02:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Secretariat To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: recentattendees@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, 106all@ietf.org Subject: IETF 106 Standard Registration and Internet Draft Deadline Approaching: Monday, November 4, 2019 X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.108.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: agenda@ietf.org Message-ID: <157263136295.32004.4925459918112981336.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 11:02:42 -0700 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 18:02:43 -0000 IETF 106 Singapore November 16-22, 2019 Hosted By: Nokia Standard Registration Deadline REMINDER: The standard deadline for registration is Monday, November 4th. Be sure to register and pay before the deadline passes! Register online at: https://ietf.org/how/meetings/register/ NOTE: If you have started the registration process but not completed payment, your registration record will be deleted at UTC 23:59 on Monday, November 4th. After November 4th at UTC 23:59 you will be required to re-enter your data and the registration fee will be $1,000 USD. Internet Draft Deadline: Internet Draft submission cut-off (for all drafts, including -00) is Monday, November 4th by UTC 23:59. Please feel free to upload drafts using the upload submissions tool found below: https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/ If you have any questions or need assistance, please do not hesitate to contact: ietf-registrar@ietf.org From nobody Fri Nov 1 11:06:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BFCE120F5D for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 11:06:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ITaKJKHIXELl for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 11:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8AF40120F7A for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 11:05:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1572631535; x=1573236335; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=RY7zJ3vd 1UKVqKy9om4hqCYv0xwDvO556kD6AeuRTKw=; b=CoAmYldCFF+Os+kfpt9oYaWX JX6tnSi6Gd4c9MqU7KYDwdD5ZPLgGTAd5QHXmC+v81V/h1w/XxgcqWYBdX34owm0 Z6FBiPEeNZeOtH3+QoFs06EJg48nWDphrKaA9efywDB4FlS74Ou5icD4VUGyKAJT ei1FG3/jPg8wElS4130= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 01 Nov 2019 19:05:35 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 01 Nov 2019 19:05:34 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.130] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50006449768.msg for ; Fri, 01 Nov 2019 19:05:33 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:701c:4a92:2975:5a34 X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.130] X-MDArrival-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 19:05:33 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1208477f66=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ietf@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.f.191014 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 19:05:31 +0100 Subject: Re: GitHub blockage in Spain From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: IETF Message-ID: Thread-Topic: GitHub blockage in Spain References: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 18:06:03 -0000 I think you should get well informed *before* spreading such false informat= ion. A Spanish court has ordered to block a specific app that is being hosted by= github. This app has been developed as part of a criminal activity by criminal grou= ps trying to break Spain and circumvent our laws. If you disagree with a court taking all the possible measures to block crim= inal activities, do you mean that you will also disagree with a court askin= g any hosting provider to block access too child pornography or any other c= riminal activity? By the way, I've been the one supporting the IETF secretariat in order to o= rganize the IETF in Spain, and among other reasons (cost and venue related)= , I strongly suggested not hosting the IETF in Barcelona in 2020, because I= know that this situation will take some time to clean up. Note that I was born in Barcelona, but I don't support any kind of criminal= activities, including breaking apart a country. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet =20 =20 =EF=BB=BFEl 1/11/19 18:02, "ietf en nombre de Jim Fenton" escribi=C3=B3: I'm hearing that Spain is blocking GitHub: =20 https://reclaimthenet.org/github-spain-blocked-catalan-protests/ =20 If that were to continue, how would we handle that for IETF 108 (next July in Madrid)? =20 -Jim =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Fri Nov 1 11:18:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B16B8120F20 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 11:18:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hRckZ5BVWS-g for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 11:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A57F0120ECB for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 11:18:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1572632279; x=1573237079; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=IdIiRHduXPpyCYjD9DJefKx63oobR/ekTtUHaG3u3pM=; b=MT5a/+k7fONXj rTsFf0S9HlJEucgKq3l4ym/tDmV6LdlURHjrMySnBTjJwwuv+rVyXxCRon4orERw TCIoaJxBS2X63MQH2zWpgkMpYyZxxe/Ju9kR/nFRIVOG7YxpuMFTOwZvcXuHXYnY 4XtGchsu1BhcBPPtkQXo2+KozbY7Ik= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 01 Nov 2019 19:17:59 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 01 Nov 2019 19:17:58 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.130] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50006449782.msg for ; Fri, 01 Nov 2019 19:17:57 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:701c:4a92:2975:5a34 X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.130] X-MDArrival-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 19:17:57 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1208477f66=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ietf@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.f.191014 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 19:17:53 +0100 Subject: Re: GitHub blockage in Spain From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Carsten Bormann , "Diego R. Lopez" CC: IETF , Jared Mauch Message-ID: <005BC04B-E91C-4BA4-866C-83C5D043E99E@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: GitHub blockage in Spain References: <2E1AD01E-3621-446B-BA53-D1BAAB3E9EDD@puck.nether.net> <71788D2A-E586-41A1-82C1-89838C2FE9BB@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <71788D2A-E586-41A1-82C1-89838C2FE9BB@tzi.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 18:18:03 -0000 Actually not! I hope the people from ISOC in Belgium doesn't create a trouble again. Last time something similar happened with court orders for blocking some we= b sites doing criminal activities, the ISOC report faked it 100%, and they = indicated that the courts orders to block the complete .cat. I'd access to the court order and clearly was saying something different. I= informed ISOC about that and asked them to correct the article. They NEVER agreed to correct such misinformation. Very SAD that ISOC acted in such way that promoted fake information and con= sequently promoted criminals. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet =20 =20 =EF=BB=BFEl 1/11/19 18:38, "ietf en nombre de Carsten Bormann" escribi=C3=B3: On Nov 1, 2019, at 18:31, Diego R. Lopez = wrote: >=20 > Just a quick comment: The request from the Spanish police was about b= locking a few repositories in Github being used for purposes related to vio= lent protests, not by any means to GitHub at large. =20 I wrote before: =20 > One problem with an independent court system is that it sometimes act= s out of a position that is not very well informed about reality. Maybe ou= r friends at ISOC can reach out, again? (They had to do that before.) =20 Maybe not just the court system :-) =20 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Fri Nov 1 12:03:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FCAA121173 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 12:03:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LS6OAbUT0pfM for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 12:02:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x436.google.com (mail-pf1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BFC9E12115F for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 12:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x436.google.com with SMTP id r4so7663871pfl.7 for ; Fri, 01 Nov 2019 12:02:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wl0cBLOOrPARnsumfaR5r0F7fh50uYhjNxqE1y5RVKg=; b=gaIuNot+n/tQ4icrlD64dhwL0I9pKeoybymEZakYaTlWhaEay/tYzpJYM3YS7Ebk7z wyNJc5H1FGHHmkmognoS987fiEYJmCMMLe3iLr6BmqJccfdSm+G1ZWuhx4KS+2OQ+qMW eFnXsofjW4xmGfmlumZLKGGy3gELi0bRXFwXbkDBzTjgDmvjA4XYTdpbS0/XCmpWZ2Sd 1rXsaQUX3uAa1PL20TX+JRJnq29k+FoyO18Lr0DAR+LSp9PMAouip0C8xObdJZBDT4Te xrzhk7cP/xLnuLtgdQJW4E5XBOCytQ5wXiO5uITXB++W/55P/ryo609Oa9nJi0+zJQQ+ uviw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=wl0cBLOOrPARnsumfaR5r0F7fh50uYhjNxqE1y5RVKg=; b=Kl8rXvYOD2+WXJZYMaLVbrXxUsB6mjqmHVaS2iiEEWhoPIDJizhJiXUi312VbYLlDu x7LjBhTmWgPW8a4dF32yBytRqabPINRX/7siA2Uf6XAqhPwpEZQc3xEsX49sZ49I8NVU G3RuAFRgwF9kFFf9PBmJ9NAzLAocFM/8ON1Myf32A5YbW7aCWdziAGMTOfewomppT0I7 +xlma07WIJxT5s3OdurfhnNEjcadB543oUk3ruY2qsBVC9FFKVK8r9lqp5idKqQrk0BD PLyQpHRzxZjbOCnBNdrPnrRZ67j7MXO3R3vkX1eSQNUIaZk60VK5/KKLPECFvoSAYX6b fKaQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUrg1kF4MFn3w4aHXGdJ0Bd6X9dfgJDSRZByq0nX2YhX0hRKtG6 AQzzAZwiZ9r7F9PtLdvR+1a9ly0f X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwObjqjuhZ93oeBIfKDpUB/YKVDi/cFc1sH2hrxQ16vT0/KMhsmhJfDF0ZBmPbf831UidmC6Q== X-Received: by 2002:a62:8748:: with SMTP id i69mr15401710pfe.224.1572634943932; Fri, 01 Nov 2019 12:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (46.137.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.137.46]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d23sm6769070pfr.129.2019.11.01.12.02.21 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 01 Nov 2019 12:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: GitHub blockage in Spain To: ietf@ietf.org References: <2E1AD01E-3621-446B-BA53-D1BAAB3E9EDD@puck.nether.net> <71788D2A-E586-41A1-82C1-89838C2FE9BB@tzi.org> <005BC04B-E91C-4BA4-866C-83C5D043E99E@consulintel.es> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <53b3a510-6a1d-83ce-ebb9-995d8ae562c3@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 08:02:21 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <005BC04B-E91C-4BA4-866C-83C5D043E99E@consulintel.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 19:03:04 -0000 Hi, IMHO we should not discuss here any aspect except the narrow technical one whether a successful IETF meeting in Madrid in July 2020 is possible. In fact it seems to be the responsibility of IASA, and the meeting planners in particular, to check this and let us know if there are any risks. I certainly don't want to enter into political debates here, on matters where most of us are ill-informed and not personally affected. Regards Brian Carpenter From nobody Fri Nov 1 12:15:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 120DF120DC4; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 12:14:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MMUxBCIxBSSw; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 12:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x835.google.com (mail-qt1-x835.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::835]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 389DA12023E; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 12:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x835.google.com with SMTP id y10so7507156qto.3; Fri, 01 Nov 2019 12:14:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=qgQdab++rCH7Wacex6NMW3kHWmD84qol4wM5RhQjtJU=; b=iigsgTbhhR94n9rGGhLz4xvGka3QLI3V+IpDEd8ajWoCCcvbyOmb16lvXXPRQaWZUQ 02PtWcLMBbLckeaNg2sjg+EmPekXK7dhTBZZYY5zS4n6iYX7ujs7LeXtParVbNt12ErG iW3JelrhwoHqImy5NA3MBQIxqapH/cXuLP/4CuC0ykrACnoey0OjhRjwylVZ7d5P0t2p mOpx2Mx3ae2kbs41RanQOxEt4PS+/PwebgE3oXWSVqiDBbSWxdQGOcYIMDl/LQZIASc5 QP2uNsGEw2QiNl0J0wfpr6TTIvyU70R4wrPS0P/+qdRaHWhTrSeezflYnSdWyQEuAn/z VcUA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=qgQdab++rCH7Wacex6NMW3kHWmD84qol4wM5RhQjtJU=; b=nOIrYyXDJBssR9P5gTUE5ehtaeQWQ3R8t9j20eA5QsTBLadcOtNy4lTOEBQuBH4CDD WhxRdfNXcKCMa1fZFVPvG6Qw7F5BBhFPKGauOeKuI+dj6SQslSfpyu/V4vk81Xn5KRIG 1i7qxeCg7/HI5vJaW1RkOL9dWAqyY6KQZxFiDxdSU+yQEDg0PFAD61O1CJt19rCaZa2E JClM2PXszmrKkxIgvxoHPLtvblqsavAS9yZiJEeOb9hwq6CjJiGeowMN+oihk4/dQI2V xqKX1UyXVykCHFoZlC+yBbZLiB7Myage3p/xlr6FxTT9KFWU1XZ5bJFWioqWgosLXMoQ U4xA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWke+DjeDW/qbQHY6zhbTtPWGEK89CSyZfqpOCOirntLkWGzl5W HwuaY/DKNoQ6qorOjGCRgIQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqybnQEluChEpaYKKuW9hNqLlBlhj0nA+80V9p9ko1YdcwWTkvZuR/onOb6/dmqnfaWL6oYu9g== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:75ce:: with SMTP id z14mr995864qtq.130.1572635679895; Fri, 01 Nov 2019 12:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.35.190] ([2001:4878:a000:3000:94b3:d132:2fd1:a75a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q7sm3840496qkb.46.2019.11.01.12.14.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 01 Nov 2019 12:14:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Aaron Falk" To: "IRTF Discuss" , "IETF WG Chairs" , "IETF Discussion" , "106 attendees" <106attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Let's have some fun: PechaKucha & friends Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 15:14:35 -0400 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13r5655) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_837889F8-EAE6-44B5-9AF8-DEA109B3CEFC_=" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 19:14:44 -0000 --=_MailMate_837889F8-EAE6-44B5-9AF8-DEA109B3CEFC_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed; markup=markdown Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A reminder and invitation to contemplate as you prepare for the = Singapore IETF... This is a call for participation in a social event around satirical = short talks. (There is usually beer involved.) In the past, talks = needed to fit the PechaKucha format but it is rather strict (20 slides, = each on screen for 20 seconds, minimal text). So, I=E2=80=99d like to re= peat = the experiment we tried in Montreal. Any talk format will be allowed = (including PK) with a maximum length of 7 minutes. As before, the = topics are encouraged to be a IETF-related and satirical or = controversial in some way, although not mean-spirited. Anyone can = participate in this unofficial social event. Date: Thursday evening (November 21) starting at 9:30pm in Sophia. If you haven=E2=80=99t been to one of these events, Here are two of my = personal favorites from prior IETFs by = [Pete](http://bapk-videos.mamadrum.net/old/IETF-099-Prague-videos/07-pete= -resnick-8.mp4) = and = [Brian](http://bapk-videos.mamadrum.net/old/IETF-099-Prague-videos/IETF-0= 96-Berlin-videos/2_trammel-8.mp4). = Video from the past BA PKs can be found = [here](http://bapk-videos.mamadrum.net). If you want to do a pechakucha, there are lots of online tutorials and = suggestions for how to make a good PechaKucha. Here are a few: = [[1](http://www.pechakucha.org/)], = [[2](http://blog.indezine.com/2012/05/10-tips-to-create-and-present-pecha= =2Ehtml)], = [[3](https://catherinecronin.wordpress.com/2012/06/13/pecha-kucha/)]. As my friend, Spencer, says: =E2=80=9CMake good decisions, People!=E2=80=9D= Format Details: * Presentation slots are open to all, assigned first come, first served. * To reserve a presentation slot, send a name and title to = aaron.falk@gmail.com and receive confirmation. * Presenters must agree to limit their talks to less than 7 minutes = (strictly enforced using the Lars Eggert Approach). * Slides are due Thursday 6pm in Powerpoint or PDF. --=_MailMate_837889F8-EAE6-44B5-9AF8-DEA109B3CEFC_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A reminder and invitation to contemplate as you prepare f= or the Singapore IETF...

This is a call for participation in a social event around= satirical short talks. (There is usually beer involved.) In the past, = talks needed to fit the PechaKucha format but it is rather strict (20 sli= des, each on screen for 20 seconds, minimal text). So, I=E2=80=99d like = to repeat the experiment we tried in Montreal. Any talk format will be a= llowed (including PK) with a maximum length of 7 minutes. As before, the= topics are encouraged to be a IETF-related and satirical or controversia= l in some way, although not mean-spirited. Anyone can participate in thi= s unofficial social event.

Date: Thursday evening (November 21) starting at 9:30pm i= n Sophia.

If you haven=E2=80=99t been to one of these events, Here = are two of my personal favorites from prior IETFs by Pete and Brian. Video from the past BA PKs can be fo= und h= ere.

If you want to do a pechakucha, there are lots of online = tutorials and suggestions for how to make a good PechaKucha. Here are a = few: [1], [2], [3].

As my friend, Spencer, says: =E2=80=9CMake good decisions= , People!=E2=80=9D

Format Details:

--=_MailMate_837889F8-EAE6-44B5-9AF8-DEA109B3CEFC_=-- From nobody Fri Nov 1 16:36:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29DD120090 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 16:36:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PfpVKbJezCRU for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 16:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 841D7120074 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 16:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1iQgTG-0007LN-7V; Fri, 01 Nov 2019 19:36:46 -0400 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 19:36:39 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Brian E Carpenter , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: GitHub blockage in Spain Message-ID: <260F2B44165234CE288A1A5D@PSB> In-Reply-To: <53b3a510-6a1d-83ce-ebb9-995d8ae562c3@gmail.com> References: <2E1AD01E-3621-446B-BA53-D1BAAB3E9EDD@puck.nether.net> <71788D2A-E586-41A1-82C1-89838C2FE9BB@tzi.org> <005BC04B-E91C-4BA4-866C-83C5D043E99E@consulintel.es> <53b3a510-6a1d-83ce-ebb9-995d8ae562c3@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 23:36:50 -0000 --On Saturday, November 2, 2019 08:02 +1300 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > IMHO we should not discuss here any aspect except the narrow > technical one whether a successful IETF meeting in Madrid in > July 2020 is possible. In fact it seems to be the > responsibility of IASA, and the meeting planners in > particular, to check this and let us know if there are any > risks. > > I certainly don't want to enter into political debates here, > on matters where most of us are ill-informed and not > personally affected. Brian, While I almost entirely agree, I note that we've had discussions on this list about IETF participants being harassed or arrested because of personal behavior or various "preferences" (aspects of their lives that may not be discretionary choices, and hence not preferences in the usual sense at all). If there were significant risk of IETF participants being harassed or arrested because of their views on the relationship between Catalonia and the rest of Spain (I note Jordi's description used the terms "criminal activities" and "trying to break Spain and circumvent our laws" ... and, before this turns into precisely the debate you want to avoid, also note that I said "rest of Spain"). I also agree with Diego, and presumably you, that this list is not a good place for discussions of "politics, fake news, and deliberate exaggerations" and not just because most of us are ill-informed. I wouldn't expect us to avoid holding a meeting in California because some of our participants might believe the state should be divided in two or to avoid a meeting in Montreal because there are people there and further to the north and east who believe Quebec should withdraw from Canada. And, of course, the US and Scotland were, historically, both involved in rather nasty wars over who has the right to secede from a country and under what terms (including whether such beliefs or actions taken to support them were appropriately classified as criminal acts). One might draw some analogies to the former Soviet Union as well. There are obviously differences among those examples and between them and the Spanish case. Your last paragraph clearly would apply to debates about those situations or the distinctions on this list. At the same time, it is not clear to me whether the meeting planners consider it part of their mandate to evaluate the relevant tensions and any possible resulting interference with the ability to hold a successful meeting and for any active IETF participant to attend without having significant concerns about what they would define as mistreatment (remember that we have set interesting precedents about meeting in the US that might or might not be relevant). It would be useful to get a statement from them --sooner rather than later-- about where they think their responsibilities begin and end. If they end before they would get to evaluations of local tensions (including whatever might be classified as criminal by relevant authorities) and whether they might pose a threat to however we (and affected participants) might define as a successful meeting, then I think that boundary, and who or what does have responsibility for those discussions, are probably an appropriate topic for this list. So is who is accountable to the community for whatever decisions are made and how they are accountable. Obviously not an easy line, or set of lines, to draw. But dismissing the need to do so by making inflammatory statements (such as a few in this thread.. but nothing in your note) is probably not a helpful way forward. best, john From nobody Fri Nov 1 17:29:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E19112007C for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 17:29:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pLtrpQSAQsKT for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 17:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B211120074 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 17:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id t9so7840771ils.4 for ; Fri, 01 Nov 2019 17:28:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wW56EdcS/aifwKYoCpt26BhGHHDjBW1Ozw1+4dYsIws=; b=jtkgolLOxIkZCOqBsEMPlNX9oivd8B16tCzU4/SjoXUc21LTpXIFXtMvuqPrYuNLf1 /FHMH/SG+1s1G1RZ/HjvbFCh/SdFC4Z5nwWjjm/cuneVuOYDZ8/DKi2xEyII/3TOTkPy /20N2lS5ivh8qVONWaVXgxMxSwCRtm0gkZ4pbOdkziBGKFifXp5AZ2944Al6deB7Ifo1 LoXPTeyfaGslFNgj91nnPGEdZ6KgyVXK9Z6SIeN1R1LDOoDo7HB+802hz9odX+q3sm9W rGNDh0loFJmR38ec+2u3Rgh+CRUWDYqD0FsSkQKEt6tnimze2FvlzCqrX2riyzpwZdAv VWeQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wW56EdcS/aifwKYoCpt26BhGHHDjBW1Ozw1+4dYsIws=; b=X/8c3EluxYIHn8KKtUHDtMRfFzRoC1t5KCQK0uv+/7lkfi/Is0UDSWIlMH6WB9gdFx 6lXFm6BusY2PxBYI/LqtJH2b0G4FEHf0F5MvO1Pn1p8RJ9yyidNoz25ws2gYNzOOfcNw zLBWtn6zTrVLfO/vkD7Ufi469jo0isRiVwQc8vOswrIQ+FAsk3AZy6HvGctfL3Qcnisv UtGeuxnCKutu8C11Y1MWRx0Qa/XYxRCi62uchp6kUepyCcQUdashofFUrz5iSdOWZiS5 uIby6PIXolglKyU27TBYXqidCCm8SzJnPJRtF//8Wfpy0fuLg07Wy2pJxDKr/CO9Ruvw tQrw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVgAP3HJB5orw0/7S990xugNZKKsS1y0pgWNsmdhx5sU5vlh4gq ynGtUrY8X49Bkt3IqMMh2ehM814IzHDAYeFSFcg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyHyt8YdFOpHxX7m6k9iwuamtll3ZoW6t6EvCohhajwXzeDNXCFNpuHgvOFDiX0aT0zCvZ7vpgfCfXQSZ0pLtU= X-Received: by 2002:a92:8394:: with SMTP id p20mr15940351ilk.73.1572654522742; Fri, 01 Nov 2019 17:28:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2E1AD01E-3621-446B-BA53-D1BAAB3E9EDD@puck.nether.net> <71788D2A-E586-41A1-82C1-89838C2FE9BB@tzi.org> <005BC04B-E91C-4BA4-866C-83C5D043E99E@consulintel.es> <53b3a510-6a1d-83ce-ebb9-995d8ae562c3@gmail.com> <260F2B44165234CE288A1A5D@PSB> In-Reply-To: <260F2B44165234CE288A1A5D@PSB> From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 17:28:31 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GitHub blockage in Spain To: John C Klensin Cc: Brian E Carpenter , IETF discussion list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002ebd730596522a01" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2019 00:29:57 -0000 --0000000000002ebd730596522a01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 4:37 PM John C Klensin wrote: > --On Saturday, November 2, 2019 08:02 +1300 Brian E Carpenter > wrote: > > > IMHO we should not discuss here any aspect except the narrow > > technical one... > > I wouldn't expect us to avoid holding a meeting in California... > This issue has been discussed before: https://www.ietf.org/blog/barriers-entry/ thanks, Rob --0000000000002ebd730596522a01 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
--On Saturday, November 2, 2019 08:02 +1300 Brian E Carpenter
<brian.= e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

> IMHO we should not discuss here any aspect except the narrow
> technical one...

I wouldn't expect us to avoid holding a meeting in California...

This issue has been discussed before:


t= hanks,
Rob
--0000000000002ebd730596522a01-- From nobody Fri Nov 1 23:00:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E8D2120090 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 22:59:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MkzUiNy61Bpl for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 22:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B502A120074 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2019 22:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1iQmS0-0007t0-T0; Sat, 02 Nov 2019 01:59:52 -0400 Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2019 01:59:47 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Rob Sayre cc: Brian E Carpenter , IETF discussion list Subject: Re: GitHub blockage in Spain Message-ID: <388D8D18FA246CCCC47EE9D9@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <2E1AD01E-3621-446B-BA53-D1BAAB3E9EDD@puck.nether.net> <71788D2A-E586-41A1-82C1-89838C2FE9BB@tzi.org> <005BC04B-E91C-4BA4-866C-83C5D043E99E@consulintel.es> <53b3a510-6a1d-83ce-ebb9-995d8ae562c3@gmail.com> <260F2B44165234CE288A1A5D@PSB> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2019 05:59:58 -0000 --On Friday, November 1, 2019 17:28 -0700 Rob Sayre wrote: >> I wouldn't expect us to avoid holding a meeting in >> California... >> > > This issue has been discussed before: > > https://www.ietf.org/blog/barriers-entry/ Of course it has and, IIR, that discussion was what led us to cut back on meetings in the US until and unless things got better. The questions in this case are (1) Whether there might be any issues in Madrid at the time of the meeting that would require the kind of examination suggested in that discussion. I don't have nearly enough knowledge to have an opinion on it. At the same time, while I think we need to be very careful about hyperbole, exaggerated conditions, or "fake news", I think it is important to ask the question. (2) It is not clear to me whether the (rather new) meeting site determination and meeting planning process and team consider it part of their responsibility to examine such questions, rather than, e.g., meeting room facilities and network connectivity. Whether they do or not, I think it is reasonable to ask that their view of their responsibilities be made clear to the IETF community. And, if they do not, I think it is reasonable to ask where and how such questions are to be addressed, keeping in mind the risks of out-of-control discussions with a surplus of ignorance and excitement and a shortage of facts. best, john From nobody Sat Nov 2 01:01:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEC55120812 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 2019 01:01:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A-Jb3YDCGzMS for ; Sat, 2 Nov 2019 01:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4543E12009E for ; Sat, 2 Nov 2019 01:01:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1572681671; x=1573286471; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=q0SDD4yznk3Ui3ytpJVxefocmPGzIoxj0ROXNJHF1GU=; b=TS9Uko0Zc1/d1 jatEyNCdOy2rxZTbEYV2KguCpJy0UsqITvs+NK0ghLXGF5JUnA/eP0SBGHVexEJ2 nn8u3FSpKgPqlVU+HKFnmkH5AKbIPcVaL7qIFaYd67xwA/x4GMTn4itPJPXMZ7Qw VmIq2AyEcahqwQargHqUfITKfCtCc0= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sat, 02 Nov 2019 09:01:11 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sat, 02 Nov 2019 09:01:11 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.144] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50006450340.msg for ; Sat, 02 Nov 2019 09:01:10 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:8f0:9c2d:a630:20b7 X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.144] X-MDArrival-Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2019 09:01:10 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1209aa9e27=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ietf@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.f.191014 Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2019 09:01:05 +0100 Subject: Re: GitHub blockage in Spain From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: John C Klensin , Rob Sayre CC: IETF discussion list Message-ID: <03EBAA0C-9F69-4BD2-A9B0-B53542D7ABCC@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: GitHub blockage in Spain References: <2E1AD01E-3621-446B-BA53-D1BAAB3E9EDD@puck.nether.net> <71788D2A-E586-41A1-82C1-89838C2FE9BB@tzi.org> <005BC04B-E91C-4BA4-866C-83C5D043E99E@consulintel.es> <53b3a510-6a1d-83ce-ebb9-995d8ae562c3@gmail.com> <260F2B44165234CE288A1A5D@PSB> <388D8D18FA246CCCC47EE9D9@PSB> In-Reply-To: <388D8D18FA246CCCC47EE9D9@PSB> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2019 08:01:46 -0000 Hi John, I can confirm that *nothing* is happening in Madrid, and we are 610 Km away= from Barcelona. The criminal activities are happening only in Catalonia. T= here is no chance that they extend their violent activities to Madrid: Ther= e has not been any signs about any planning on that. I said criminal activates, because they have been convicted for those activ= ities. The people supporting them in the protests, is not just protesting, = is damaging private and public properties, which is a criminal act. Some of= them were detained while preparing bombs and other terrorist activities, b= ut all those were being planned only against the law enforcement authoritie= s in Catalonia. You can complain against a court decision to convict anyone if you believe = is wrong. That's fair and I support it, but I don't support violence and da= mage to properties and against other people, as a way to sustaining that pr= otest. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet =20 =20 =EF=BB=BFEl 2/11/19 7:00, "ietf en nombre de John C Klensin" escribi=C3=B3: =20 =20 --On Friday, November 1, 2019 17:28 -0700 Rob Sayre wrote: =20 >> I wouldn't expect us to avoid holding a meeting in >> California... >>=20 >=20 > This issue has been discussed before: >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/blog/barriers-entry/ =20 Of course it has and, IIR, that discussion was what led us to cut back on meetings in the US until and unless things got better. The questions in this case are=20 =20 (1) Whether there might be any issues in Madrid at the time of the meeting that would require the kind of examination suggested in that discussion. I don't have nearly enough knowledge to have an opinion on it. At the same time, while I think we need to be very careful about hyperbole, exaggerated conditions, or "fake news", I think it is important to ask the question. =20 (2) It is not clear to me whether the (rather new) meeting site determination and meeting planning process and team consider it part of their responsibility to examine such questions, rather than, e.g., meeting room facilities and network connectivity. Whether they do or not, I think it is reasonable to ask that their view of their responsibilities be made clear to the IETF community. And, if they do not, I think it is reasonable to ask where and how such questions are to be addressed, keeping in mind the risks of out-of-control discussions with a surplus of ignorance and excitement and a shortage of facts. =20 best, john =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Sat Nov 2 04:45:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68D2D1201AA for ; Sat, 2 Nov 2019 04:45:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=it.uc3m.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xb0pZxzsUkg9 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 2019 04:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x531.google.com (mail-ed1-x531.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::531]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4AD2F1200CD for ; Sat, 2 Nov 2019 04:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x531.google.com with SMTP id c4so9488802edl.0 for ; Sat, 02 Nov 2019 04:45:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=it.uc3m.es; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=lcIwduxkTQslzIf+ZfXZvLzqz/C7rW4lYRSVZUgSnPQ=; b=cm1TsDb4k5BUjLaXRlEGUIH2ii76qmODEC0EN/yxA1ACQySaWvYDBpMdioFdoxqCsk cyltaAHChLovM9n7c+w36JPyhpybf6lRckOkbhBrlvpHCTQ+toLPEQYPcp7KciZG2vLa u2IpqAaH6sYy9JBZjSL1Tle/WMGDvWZv6UnFmBmcIjq7hgxKRMbb91OXBEb2FMemsR7D U2NDpX0uvMlaLqnD8wgFP6IwKECin3d1tH5DoCVtWQmcVbN3pU2EdKC1v2mfsDrquI4q Ph9Em/H7C0IgginGoNI179e/GHeBZYqfAdyD07nWpkJWsFwKfaidP2GnMDWcf4gNDyga nB+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=lcIwduxkTQslzIf+ZfXZvLzqz/C7rW4lYRSVZUgSnPQ=; b=m8/seExIxARpWhDLTDc+MUjBpk5ijeLNCFJNOwnIohcnQ78mMLktm0TS77HaqdVhEL PNEY2jCJvXYM+fvoD1HJ3ArQlbHufUzse/+R8VZaPVui6Idyu53NJWHGh9XtWhvljLfg AC0RlVDN4lLQotCXZ1Kg0zx1A/N3/6v3BLDG2D0RWp9p3XHrziiwDJdU5JDGrYHx6PjR QelWzNmalBlzHSBPc+SfQ19egE5epMEiQeB2Dp+AOndOwT3TJTKVZeHard/ogklZmy/N BmFKjihnMkKROplwV8R2iQ3tWAMUTzLIhr7q3sm6OkMUdF3wI68gZ03mpBMDeIPDaN+j Ai3g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXMSM2hvcAzsDsZyyNYLzuu5rDhgb7Ortu60OVZ8pUJE6FIVrE7 arN1n8lTLe6Bya4kJZN/F8FMczcL3fuwm3JCU9kvvA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw0J7Od/w+H+Ce2gZ5UR1VN+xIiQU03mm9mSccdmHatBRBfgV837O56SBCINxX/R+t0l42HXgK/iGyfgSJC0K8= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:2615:: with SMTP id h21mr9781282ejc.212.1572695106249; Sat, 02 Nov 2019 04:45:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157108446243.24779.12043209679040887677@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:44:50 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Genart last call review of draft-ietf-dmm-pmipv6-dlif-04 To: Ines Robles Cc: General Area Review Team , draft-ietf-dmm-pmipv6-dlif.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, dmm Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002611f305965b9d81" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:45:12 -0000 --0000000000002611f305965b9d81 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Ines, We've just posted a new revision addressing your comments. Thanks, Carlos On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 1:21 PM CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO wrote: > Hi Ines, > > Thanks for the review. We'll check with IANA folks about how to add more > details (whether they do it or we do). > > Thanks, > > Carlos > > On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 10:21 PM Ines Robles via Datatracker < > noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > >> Reviewer: Ines Robles >> Review result: Ready with Nits >> >> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area >> Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed >> by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just >> like any other last call comments. >> >> For more information, please see the FAQ at >> >> . >> >> Document: draft-ietf-dmm-pmipv6-dlif-04 >> Reviewer: Ines Robles >> Review Date: 2019-10-14 >> IETF LC End Date: 2019-10-14 >> IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat >> >> Summary: >> >> I believe the draft is technically good. This document is well written. >> >> The document proposes Distributed Mobility Management for Proxy Mobile >> IPv6 in >> which mobility sessions are anchored at the last IP hop router called MAAR >> (mobility anchor and access router). The document focuses on the required >> extensions to effectively support simultaneously anchoring several flows >> at >> different distributed gateways. >> >> I have a minor concern detailed in Nits section. >> >> Major issues:Not Issues found >> >> Minor issues: Not Issues found >> >> Nits/editorial comments: >> >> It would be nice to specify IANA Section with more details, such as >> indicating >> the registry which the option type belong, etc. [rfc8126] >> >> Thank you for this document, >> >> Ines. >> >> >> > > -- > Special Issue "Beyond 5G Evolution": > https://www.mdpi.com/journal/electronics/special_issues/beyond_5g > > -- Special Issue "Beyond 5G Evolution": https://www.mdpi.com/journal/electronics/special_issues/beyond_5g --0000000000002611f305965b9d81 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ines,

We've just posted a new re= vision addressing your comments.

Thanks,

Carlos

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 1:21 PM CARLOS JESUS = BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es&g= t; wrote:
Hi Ines,

Thanks for the review. We'll che= ck with IANA folks about how to add more details (whether they do it or we = do).

Thanks,

Carlos
=

= On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 10:21 PM Ines Robles via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:=
Reviewer: Ines = Robles
Review result: Ready with Nits

I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
by the IESG for the IETF Chair.=C2=A0 Please treat these comments just
like any other last call comments.

For more information, please see the FAQ at

<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq&g= t;.

Document: draft-ietf-dmm-pmipv6-dlif-04
Reviewer: Ines Robles
Review Date: 2019-10-14
IETF LC End Date: 2019-10-14
IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat

Summary:

I believe the draft is technically good. This document is well written.

The document proposes Distributed Mobility Management for Proxy Mobile IPv6= in
which mobility sessions are anchored at the last IP hop router called MAAR<= br> (mobility anchor and access router). The document focuses on the required extensions to effectively support simultaneously anchoring several flows at=
different distributed gateways.

I have a minor concern detailed in Nits section.

Major issues:Not Issues found

Minor issues: Not Issues found

Nits/editorial comments:

It would be nice to specify IANA Section with more details, such as indicat= ing
the registry which the option type belong, etc. [rfc8126]

Thank you for this document,

Ines.




--


--
--0000000000002611f305965b9d81-- From nobody Sat Nov 2 04:45:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 222C5120A90 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 2019 04:45:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=it.uc3m.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h_jzFyrCUQFm for ; Sat, 2 Nov 2019 04:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x535.google.com (mail-ed1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06C75121397 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 2019 04:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x535.google.com with SMTP id l25so9461075edt.6 for ; Sat, 02 Nov 2019 04:45:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=it.uc3m.es; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=x2BYLZxIxSAdt8ypoIQIORGGOqYh56gnCIuumwf7wWQ=; b=nAV7SZSZaSaY0VhNCfKKiX576UJLCpjr4GQ9tNwhj9/MQ67e/QlXz6rLSA7xlph/UT 3VazXn3X6drNshoFhh6l6XYkNj1ApGKcR8jkJu0kSJl9vGYobK16Sl96NYbNVSUNGNNN aADqe8ubLHwhhMMWmPiSOy7UyYUA93cGwDR6J4cSdV0TkfKYY3p5EmQ7btwPbdTpyPyB Ju1661iNirywP/e26zxX8mUig5TxRb7x0XH2K1HZlOyx9LOgnSTjxArEkwcVFsg9c779 qz4tAC2g2fiBxdrHLI5gi1PQJzKo6xMyEF1FlMiCWadhzrRmIXSmq55mF/lmsBx+LwB/ Lz5A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=x2BYLZxIxSAdt8ypoIQIORGGOqYh56gnCIuumwf7wWQ=; b=dM2+Q+Hdqv4ZpAh4MPLiT977mFGVndZyuhzl7UgHV5RzCwJD4oO1qSzwNbODsoBITq CJqJWXOIZ1bjJDtgMEE7Wsj8zU1YPE1U2UVSgvWHrX7EuK4cEQw4aO7qUlxAh1DIZ+8l ErQL7SoXp/nRZp0774OpVraa6q2YlAULm7KP1BFDGONb9/cdUG6m56arWoU4Dh5VdNpZ TcQwBQuqbxIrhbvVSWREbo82kKNdLHgg//FKxiL7I5rwUPETnLWvG7xqY8L6qxW4EZ+h 4/cXmfm/+24EGDyd35cMZ48tl+3eK9EEHm1Z6yPQFP857KH3VslZI/VsALEylw6aaSKG AvJg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVSGQKikRUWIys0HW9F1MmlLh7ToqXjc5Q3KSNvGHkNo2dTX83q Soa8xww7sNldZGetwTyHGBJkPtDg6SdzvBPzFA/MgQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyMg9u+FQN8yjW5bbJ3saZU6ASCWr7o2kNaxodf+eTNakKybBufK71tbhOc+FSoSoSgXhM7756TWX9eRG1A0XI= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:448e:: with SMTP id y14mr14770700ejo.136.1572695116290; Sat, 02 Nov 2019 04:45:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157108615425.24656.12786623966649135975@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:45:00 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-dmm-pmipv6-dlif-04 To: Joerg Ott Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org, draft-ietf-dmm-pmipv6-dlif.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, dmm Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bf3eb305965b9d43" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:45:27 -0000 --000000000000bf3eb305965b9d43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Joerg, We've just posted a new revision addressing your comments. Thanks, Carlos On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 1:24 PM CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO wrote: > Thanks a lot Joerg for your very comprehensive review. > > We will carefully look at your comments and provide responses (with > proposals of text changes) in the next few days. I prefer to take some time > to properly address all your points. > > Thanks! > > Carlos > > On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 10:49 PM Joerg Ott via Datatracker < > noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > >> Reviewer: Joerg Ott >> Review result: Ready with Issues >> >> Hi, >> >> this document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review >> team's >> ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written >> primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the >> document's >> authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the >> IETF >> discussion list for information. >> >> When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this >> review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC >> tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review. >> >> The draft defines extensions to Proxy Mobile IPv6 to support a more >> distributed >> variant of mobility management. In essence, as a mobile node moves from >> one >> point of attachment (Mobility Anchor and Access Router, MAAR) to the next, >> its routing prefix with the previous MAAR(s) remain(s) and ongoing >> transport >> layer connections remain active and routed indirectly via the previous >> MAAR, >> while new ones will use the present MAAR. The interactions of MAARs are >> managed via a Central Mobility Database (CMD). >> >> The draft is well written and good to follow, describing the protocols and >> extensions clearly. I just have two transport-specific concern and two >> general >> operational issues that require further clarification in the draft. >> >> The transport issues: >> >> T1. Section 3.2. When the CMD acts as a relay for Proxy Binding Updates >> (PBUs) >> and Proxy Binding Acts (PBAs), the CMD may act as a relay of a single PBU >> to >> multiple previous MAARs. If multiple previous MAARs exist, say k, (and >> there >> may be numerous in case of many fast handovers, e.g., with vehicular >> networks), >> the CMD creates k outgoing packets from a single incoming packet. This >> bears >> a certain amplification risk (which may also need to be addressed in the >> security >> considerations section) but it also may lead to packet bursts originated >> from the >> CMD, albeit to different targets. Other protocols start introducing >> pacing to avoid >> bursts on the outgoing link, even if the packets do take different paths >> in the end. >> This may be worthwhile considering. >> >> T2. Also in section 3.2, when relaying PBAs, the CMD serves as a >> transport or >> application endpoint and should have a way to deal with missing responses >> (after all, this is a connectionless protocol on top of an unreliable >> Internet). >> A timeout is only mentioned for aggregation, but even there there the >> timeout >> is not specified, nor is a reference to, e.g., RFC 5213 or so to infer a >> timeout >> used elsewhere. >> >> General issues: >> >> G1. Section 3.2 (again) specifies that responses are aggregated on p.10. >> How >> does response aggregation work? How is error handling done? >> >> Moreover, also on p.10, further below the draft states that if a timer >> expires, >> the requests already received are forwarded. The missing ones come later. >> This seems to contradict aggregation because the originator (the currently >> server MAAR) does not expect more than a single response if it sent out a >> single update. This may thus require updated processing in the MAAR. >> >> G2. Sect. 3.3 suggests that PBAs could be sent straight from the previous >> MAAR >> to the current MAAR. How does this work if security associations are >> supposed >> to be applied? It would seem that, when following the security >> considerations, >> such cases are not covered. At least, this would warrant further >> explanation as >> in this case we suddenly have three involved security associations, which >> would >> also need to be established. >> >> G3. Sect 3.5 discusses deregistration and suggests that this can only be >> done by >> timeout; I understand the rationale but can any risks arise on continued >> resource >> consumption (DoS attacks)? >> >> G4. Sect. 6.: As alluded to above, the security considerations may need >> expanding. >> >> Nits: >> p.12: "information are" -> "information is" >> p.12: "influence on" -> "influence" >> >> > > -- > Special Issue "Beyond 5G Evolution": > https://www.mdpi.com/journal/electronics/special_issues/beyond_5g > > -- Special Issue "Beyond 5G Evolution": https://www.mdpi.com/journal/electronics/special_issues/beyond_5g --000000000000bf3eb305965b9d43 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Joerg,

We've just posted a new r= evision addressing your comments.

Thanks,

Carlos

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 1:24 PM CARLOS JESUS = BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es&g= t; wrote:
Thanks a lot Joerg for your very comprehensive review.

<= /div>
We will carefully look at your comments and provide responses (wi= th proposals of text changes) in the next few days. I prefer to take some t= ime to properly address all your points.

Thanks!

Carlos

On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 10:49 PM Joerg = Ott via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
Reviewer: Joerg Ott
Review result: Ready with Issues

Hi,

this document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review team&#= 39;s
ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the document&= #39;s
authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the I= ETF
discussion list for information.

When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC
tsv-art@ietf.org = if you reply to or forward this review.

The draft defines extensions to Proxy Mobile IPv6 to support a more distrib= uted
variant of mobility management. In essence, as a mobile node moves from one=
point of attachment (Mobility Anchor and Access Router, MAAR) to the next,<= br> its routing prefix with the previous MAAR(s) remain(s) and ongoing transpor= t
layer connections remain active and routed indirectly via the previous MAAR= ,
while new ones will use the present MAAR. The interactions of MAARs are
managed via a Central Mobility Database (CMD).

The draft is well written and good to follow, describing the protocols and<= br> extensions clearly. I just have two transport-specific concern and two gene= ral
operational issues that require further clarification in the draft.

The transport issues:

T1. Section 3.2. When the CMD acts as a relay for Proxy Binding Updates (PB= Us)
and Proxy Binding Acts (PBAs), the CMD may act as a relay of a single PBU t= o
multiple previous MAARs. If multiple previous MAARs exist, say k, (and ther= e
may be numerous in case of many fast handovers, e.g., with vehicular networ= ks),
the CMD creates k outgoing packets from a single incoming packet. This bear= s
a certain amplification risk (which may also need to be addressed in the se= curity
considerations section) but it also may lead to packet bursts originated fr= om the
CMD, albeit to different targets. Other protocols start introducing pacing = to avoid
bursts on the outgoing link, even if the packets do take different paths in= the end.
This may be worthwhile considering.

T2. Also in section 3.2, when relaying PBAs, the CMD serves as a transport = or
application endpoint and should have a way to deal with missing responses (after all, this is a connectionless protocol on top of an unreliable Inter= net).
A timeout is only mentioned for aggregation, but even there there the timeo= ut
is not specified, nor is a reference to, e.g., RFC 5213 or so to infer a ti= meout
used elsewhere.

General issues:

G1. Section 3.2 (again) specifies that responses are aggregated on p.10. Ho= w
does response aggregation work? How is error handling done?

Moreover, also on p.10, further below the draft states that if a timer expi= res,
the requests already received are forwarded. The missing ones come later. This seems to contradict aggregation because the originator (the currently<= br> server MAAR) does not expect more than a single response if it sent out a single update. This may thus require updated processing in the MAAR.

G2. Sect. 3.3 suggests that PBAs could be sent straight from the previous M= AAR
to the current MAAR. How does this work if security associations are suppos= ed
to be applied? It would seem that, when following the security consideratio= ns,
such cases are not covered. At least, this would warrant further explanatio= n as
in this case we suddenly have three involved security associations, which w= ould
also need to be established.

G3. Sect 3.5 discusses deregistration and suggests that this can only be do= ne by
timeout; I understand the rationale but can any risks arise on continued re= source
consumption (DoS attacks)?

G4. Sect. 6.: As alluded to above, the security considerations may need exp= anding.

Nits:
p.12: "information are" -> "information is"
p.12: "influence on" -> "influence"



--


--
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([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:b597:9a03:cc61:2c6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a8sm13356267wme.11.2019.11.02.08.31.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 02 Nov 2019 08:31:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <7E511C30-CBDB-4518-A8C8-F9ABA667F098@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_05CE9A1F-0ABF-4755-A8C7-9EC6CC90C899"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: GitHub blockage in Spain Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 08:31:12 -0700 In-Reply-To: <53b3a510-6a1d-83ce-ebb9-995d8ae562c3@gmail.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , IETF To: Brian Carpenter References: <2E1AD01E-3621-446B-BA53-D1BAAB3E9EDD@puck.nether.net> <71788D2A-E586-41A1-82C1-89838C2FE9BB@tzi.org> <005BC04B-E91C-4BA4-866C-83C5D043E99E@consulintel.es> <53b3a510-6a1d-83ce-ebb9-995d8ae562c3@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2019 15:31:28 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_05CE9A1F-0ABF-4755-A8C7-9EC6CC90C899 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Brian, > On Nov 1, 2019, at 12:02 PM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > IMHO we should not discuss here any aspect except the narrow technical = one whether a successful IETF meeting in Madrid in July 2020 is = possible. In fact it seems to be the responsibility of IASA, and the = meeting planners in particular, to check this and let us know if there = are any risks. The requirements for an IETF network clearly state that it should be = unfiltered. Specifically from = https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/admin/meeting-network-requirements/ : The transit provided in support of the IETF MUST be capable of = providing access to the IPv4 and IPv6 default free zones without the imposition of = content filtering (e.g., URL, Site, application, port, or DPI based = filtering).=E2=80=9D Bob >=20 > I certainly don't want to enter into political debates here, on = matters where most of us are ill-informed and not personally affected. >=20 > Regards > Brian Carpenter >=20 --Apple-Mail=_05CE9A1F-0ABF-4755-A8C7-9EC6CC90C899 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl29oUAACgkQrut0EXfn u6hoiQgAvPm7FJHdqqskhspMKYPywIBQyEP+/jJ+dJ7PR17XhCQdliwOZ1+5R1Ha 4SAC3mz6mkkdmic/WyDXyo9mRBvs2dq0ZqT04FeCz1pBHxkYwBHOAurUzokaeAPp oVsJvBvSO2RDUbgsWjCKp24GhIZagcMdq+jnaKIXzi+CeGZOyk17hfYFq1LpySwb ETQ6qYoh6P/htMRZUilYf0JGemqrI4vu585X9bZoH3cWRAyy1G/uRjoLguXXe0K0 A6UvajrGFd/wnIh62sRO6ZNzSFftqU4NSju1Kd/M1zEQnqonw8+EfudzJ+1Of2DN p+wzwfPDpfAgDNDvsxC2MR/Aqcg5GQ== =SIL4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_05CE9A1F-0ABF-4755-A8C7-9EC6CC90C899-- From nobody Sat Nov 2 12:42:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90BDA120073 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:42:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zakfRBF9qgI1 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52d.google.com (mail-pg1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E40B2120043 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id e10so8568575pgd.11 for ; Sat, 02 Nov 2019 12:42:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oSDC8QAtN7RFLZIaU4ATTwg0hl7ANfZVHQ7SMWXwdlA=; b=BPGG2JdQ1OHif1wu/6H9h8lrMZBh6S6xX0Ba28opN5A6RHlBexfaiXL/PUiGZSP7Xw tJUQ0FTbUPHeQO5r2njSDn7J9wXMLoy91hjyjoVkmhaza86/ZTl62lxryFOHF3t/i6oE eb4zD6dY8Fwt0Rr08TWKbpxU5hMaBhspfKoExMbECMwt69ausDzfU41xPcjE7semXmK8 An7bYJVJY9Y/+xaUmJKzFQIrBNDk885WCgsps6x4BpVFv01yji5Q1yhD8tUEkMDYjMZ8 4TjmX/lCqnTJJEbzsusoVC1GK5CtZ2EfQOWrz2dtMIN+V4ehm2XcHlYDJ8nB77k8c4yC LZ9Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=oSDC8QAtN7RFLZIaU4ATTwg0hl7ANfZVHQ7SMWXwdlA=; b=Vmkkv6xoNZyL/JXEK576WqUuCaWD9PKMwPWU6VN3kb+KhZHJgw0LDkJcHI/uSabMg2 iq6DdSeLmjA+MGtIqwXc+FmP+3K9Ddfwik3VaLpt85F6dD+yOx3ld0uFxxEF/c35JcAJ fZ+xJVQ8RKuvZvgLTuNtA834dyV8IiebNJURD26STxcp/60nmAODzKTfva6NF82QMeo/ xbKMNdgE0MF/r/sg0ny/c8ZqDYyzwD4W9y28uXUmP0m1RlLDzl5YK67s11iZicDY9shH KJbtNij+Tc+10qUDCDbNhBPv3vwDRlrqOHJbKzooBplasskS/ATee02oW2Ep4javjfMk VVPw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVVaRr2OwCJ9Vvi86gN7B4kgveChSKttEF5iO/vcLKH9EP7N0gB /sfKjuZdn5qFIW82CbbRfer9wKIB X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxKb5WZNyvDHSDUeWHvr5fja4yG/uB1e3dDL6XsbCBFIKzOMWJsTKgvMTfhemN7ggEccYFKXg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:3807:: with SMTP id w7mr9397208pjb.33.1572723769027; Sat, 02 Nov 2019 12:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (46.137.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.137.46]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q13sm23128153pjq.0.2019.11.02.12.42.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 02 Nov 2019 12:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: GitHub blockage in Spain To: John C Klensin , Rob Sayre Cc: IETF discussion list References: <2E1AD01E-3621-446B-BA53-D1BAAB3E9EDD@puck.nether.net> <71788D2A-E586-41A1-82C1-89838C2FE9BB@tzi.org> <005BC04B-E91C-4BA4-866C-83C5D043E99E@consulintel.es> <53b3a510-6a1d-83ce-ebb9-995d8ae562c3@gmail.com> <260F2B44165234CE288A1A5D@PSB> <388D8D18FA246CCCC47EE9D9@PSB> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <1f37cfbc-de14-bae4-75eb-7d4ba8fecdcf@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 08:42:45 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <388D8D18FA246CCCC47EE9D9@PSB> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2019 19:42:52 -0000 John, On 02-Nov-19 18:59, John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On Friday, November 1, 2019 17:28 -0700 Rob Sayre > wrote: > >>> I wouldn't expect us to avoid holding a meeting in >>> California... >>> >> >> This issue has been discussed before: >> >> https://www.ietf.org/blog/barriers-entry/ > > Of course it has and, IIR, that discussion was what led us to > cut back on meetings in the US until and unless things got > better. The questions in this case are > > (1) Whether there might be any issues in Madrid at the time of > the meeting that would require the kind of examination suggested > in that discussion. I don't have nearly enough knowledge to > have an opinion on it. At the same time, while I think we need > to be very careful about hyperbole, exaggerated conditions, or > "fake news", I think it is important to ask the question. > > (2) It is not clear to me whether the (rather new) meeting site > determination and meeting planning process and team consider it > part of their responsibility to examine such questions, rather > than, e.g., meeting room facilities and network connectivity. The criteria in draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process include: "Economic, safety, and health risks associated with this Venue are acceptable." That draft is approved and in the RFC Editor queue waiting for missing references (the IASA2 drafts), so I assume and hope it's being applied by IASA already. > Whether they do or not, I think it is reasonable to ask that > their view of their responsibilities be made clear to the IETF > community. Isn't that exactly why we did the mtgvenue work? > And, if they do not, I think it is reasonable to ask > where and how such questions are to be addressed, keeping in > mind the risks of out-of-control discussions with a surplus of > ignorance and excitement and a shortage of facts. In general, it would be nice to be assured that the two approved mtgvenue drafts are already being applied. Regards, Brian From nobody Sat Nov 2 13:51:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9A22120024 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 2019 13:51:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k__1Lv5jaCeZ for ; Sat, 2 Nov 2019 13:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x530.google.com (mail-pg1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59D2412001E for ; Sat, 2 Nov 2019 13:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x530.google.com with SMTP id e4so8665161pgs.1 for ; Sat, 02 Nov 2019 13:51:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=to:from:subject:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1Cy5XY7Lbm3mByviIIhKaSZPSG/VZ6uGW7T2OCOHCRA=; b=ss9sUxvfj44Svhnkz4J5LsYhrRVOxEv5GwR6NZSM7x+m+LpHXF5HWArgqip2nOGJ6U YFGu2lSqsFAbvmeVc5P0Al2gLTL6ophPhI3EckIZEphW64otaOcIdm8ShfUEz9UD5Xj2 ah1bAWyBSjBSeQUS/KuVEeDlRmPN8OnPPTbRL3uM8tcikHpOa44gJUV6/Rp4TToBVAhe p4tuPo6gKRLV4AXVHvpAMNk26JN4//vpWmQ/MEwCIBx5ppN3/Pu8oru/FCytFu/A1phI a/PL2G0gmZQnQiXDfV0dqsDGWgj6EmA7MvYQ1WwYoKDxtsMmJ3INUP6F0Ocqmdm4J2xR qLhw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1Cy5XY7Lbm3mByviIIhKaSZPSG/VZ6uGW7T2OCOHCRA=; b=JXHP7edxTOMDtKLmETm5lDJ64Sc9UmzbvZaKWQ2qV/8s7GFF3U0LFxn7Yu/EMw8V83 k5aLAtQhuSD4cBLAXF7zFLYD6xeoFEXbr58W4CVmq48Vd8uQKI16KQPjI336KURXEley 5e6AIWYtx0wwNxLA4UhrwkjuFm9dmfZ+9IqTTey/xWEaLjoYJYtCx2llfUvHyw8KXd7y ZNn/0TCKvqRgPPxkC+JnX9AEBjlnmauiX4riCge2BKZzGOR3FT2TPRF9oMieTjvQPApc RyD/RGY3J02aU3u9ug1GwB+ADdMY64dLya7pIkxtzPMVCUC72fKKKZ1qBTGaJkMH6h6K UCwA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXgCx1RF43UQhwooAokR2tCZI3ZOxvapfP9RapArOWFiWhehBtE 6uKbhclSriV7OFCnwLLmYv8SNNmg X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwVkRiKzXbGs9bcLZ25II8hR4lHZ6PfWQaskYow05HvMnuWW30FKrGlkiNKs/MOlp+6VjPwvA== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9289:: with SMTP id j9mr22262858pfa.70.1572727888374; Sat, 02 Nov 2019 13:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (46.137.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.137.46]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l22sm9907866pgj.4.2019.11.02.13.51.26 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 02 Nov 2019 13:51:27 -0700 (PDT) To: IETF discussion list From: Brian E Carpenter Subject: NomCom status? Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 09:51:25 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2019 20:51:31 -0000 According to https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2019/: > Wednesday, October 16, 2019: Call for community feedback Did I miss this somehow? I don't see it in the ietf-announce archive. Regards Brian Carpenter From nobody Sun Nov 3 01:12:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 932101200FF for ; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 01:12:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qIG2O-BTd9kd for ; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 01:12:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.elandsys.com (mx.elandsys.com [162.213.2.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 786F21200F6 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 01:12:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.115.173.52]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPSA id xA39CRmY019674 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 3 Nov 2019 01:12:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1572772359; x=1572858759; i=@elandsys.com; bh=nksYd/jsrZeutaC58buIzDpd8UXmFvb6nAGGks5u4Yk=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=upG8Uxevy82fjjN9xceD0LqLjWpnt3rjulN+beiH0KnVJFr0gvqpJv0CWbJd7J6dK TbfZqdBpsERRfXdzhX1RdnLQAPMKNVNfkPWZMg9wFAFrOsYgJ+dFDHxsz8qWkNxSWq crpEyFvcDMkwHBWlkfFCGNsGPfI0ad2Rp46cV4lE= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20191103010159.11e5ebd8@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 01:11:37 -0700 To: Jim Fenton , ietf@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy Subject: Re: GitHub blockage in Spain In-Reply-To: References: <2E1AD01E-3621-446B-BA53-D1BAAB3E9EDD@puck.nether.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 09:12:52 -0000 Hi Jim, At 10:20 AM 01-11-2019, Jim Fenton wrote: >My question is mostly about the practicalities of how attendees will >be able to use GitHub if the block is still in place then. We are >doing an increasing amount of IETF work in GitHub, and attendees >need access to it to do other work as well. If we can negotiate an >arrangement that will exempt the IETF network from the block, that >would (IMO) be a minimally acceptable solution. Of course, attendees >staying offsite would still need to use a VPN or something to access >GitHub from their hotel, AirBNB, etc. and that's still a bad situation. I took a quick look at the IETF soon-to-be-published policy on the matter. It only provides guidance about meeting rotation. The document which might be of use would be the one about the selection criteria. From a technical perspective, the Internet service for the IETF would likely be unmodified and unfiltered. There was a takedown notice [1] which was published a few days ago. That notice is in line with the IAB considerations about how to perform filtering. Furthermore, a person from the country where the meeting will be hosted confirmed that access to a working group repository is working correctly. Does the IETF LLC have any grounds to negotiate an arrangement? Regards, S. Moonesamy 1. http://r.elandsys.com/r/69452 From nobody Sun Nov 3 02:43:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB0621200E5 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 02:43:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wgSn_6W0xKPE for ; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 02:43:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BAA0120019 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 02:43:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.102] (p548DC893.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.200.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 475XbT1M0Lzyv2; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 11:43:49 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: GitHub blockage in Spain From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20191103010159.11e5ebd8@elandnews.com> Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 11:43:52 +0100 Cc: IETF X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 594470631.012525-02f4edf1eb0d17ec2dafee8e212e1b60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <14C2116F-7CC9-4616-A440-06F5ADB17D88@tzi.org> References: <2E1AD01E-3621-446B-BA53-D1BAAB3E9EDD@puck.nether.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20191103010159.11e5ebd8@elandnews.com> To: S Moonesamy X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 10:43:54 -0000 Hi SM, I think the discussion here was less about the specific takedown notice = but about the collateral damage caused by ISPs by interpreting the = prohibitions too broadly, blocking entire sites that we need or maybe = even larger regions. It would be good to get some information from the ground about whether = that is likely to be an ongoing concern in Spain or whether the = police/the ISPs have learned from this occurrence. I don=E2=80=99t know = where to get that; maybe some people with the appropriate government and = community contacts can find out and report. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Nov 3 02:56:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1F5F120110 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 02:56:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KMHw0OJi-poT for ; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 02:56:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E41A51200E5 for ; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 02:56:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1572778599; x=1573383399; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=71xRaNX20JBexmDRck+G0zocboRBXH2ghvAeZb8WIhM=; b=fKAgYMfp9voGY wq176F3jWGhKj+tb286zklpLswuO2mPhZY8zU6oc31f0TuG4V4zQzNc1Dg+0fana DwzSKX7llya4m4Jwc/6ygyOUdNKid5Vfcqrn1N6p7Vx5o09kcFunR+f8LOUhSCOX rfbI+3n9WyhvO4DLQI00dlNOFKWPDQ= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sun, 03 Nov 2019 11:56:39 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sun, 03 Nov 2019 11:56:38 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.144] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50006451380.msg for ; Sun, 03 Nov 2019 11:56:37 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:d807:cf84:8ea6:b795 X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.144] X-MDArrival-Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 11:56:37 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=121079e0a6=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ietf@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.f.191014 Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 11:56:35 +0100 Subject: Re: GitHub blockage in Spain From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Carsten Bormann , S Moonesamy CC: IETF Message-ID: <544F9CBB-5388-4C92-971B-B71BAC784EFE@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: GitHub blockage in Spain References: <2E1AD01E-3621-446B-BA53-D1BAAB3E9EDD@puck.nether.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20191103010159.11e5ebd8@elandnews.com> <14C2116F-7CC9-4616-A440-06F5ADB17D88@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <14C2116F-7CC9-4616-A440-06F5ADB17D88@tzi.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 10:56:44 -0000 Hi Carsten, I think in general ISPs (and LEAs) in Spain, know how to do this "specific"= blocking, and in fact, they haven't blocked GitHub, or in the previous occ= asion they didn't blocked .cat, but only blocked specific and very concrete= web sites. >From the link provided by SM, this is very obvious: https://github.com/github/gov-takedowns/blob/master/Spain/2019/2019-10-23-G= uardiaCivil.md and even more looking at specific details from the court order: https://github.com/github/gov-takedowns/blob/master/Spain/2019/2019-10-26-G= uardiaCivil.md Furthermore, the IETF network is not using a "standard" connection, we use = our own routers, BGP, addressing space and ASN, and at least, from my side,= what I'm asking to the possible sponsors for the links (when negotiating i= ts sponsorship), is "unfiltered" service. In my opinion, that means that in case of a "different" court order, the re= sponsibility will fall in the IETF itself, not the transit provider (which = in fact, can pass us that responsibility if that's the case). I fully understand that criminals are publishing false information, as ISOC= did previously (despite having been informed by ISOC Spain), that looks li= ke the "Spanish Government" (not the Courts), are closing down the "access = to github" or ".cat", or whatever. But this is not the case. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet =20 =20 =EF=BB=BFEl 3/11/19 11:44, "ietf en nombre de Carsten Bormann" escribi=C3=B3: Hi SM, =20 I think the discussion here was less about the specific takedown notice= but about the collateral damage caused by ISPs by interpreting the prohibi= tions too broadly, blocking entire sites that we need or maybe even larger = regions. =20 It would be good to get some information from the ground about whether = that is likely to be an ongoing concern in Spain or whether the police/the = ISPs have learned from this occurrence. I don=E2=80=99t know where to get = that; maybe some people with the appropriate government and community conta= cts can find out and report. =20 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Sun Nov 3 05:19:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44DDA1200A4; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 05:18:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gWSlxHEOjuRE; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 05:18:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from cnnic.cn (smtp13.cnnic.cn [218.241.118.13]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 678BF120089; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 05:18:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by ajax-webmail-ocmail02.zx.nicx.cn (Coremail) ; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 21:18:49 +0800 (GMT+08:00) X-Originating-IP: [159.226.7.2] Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 21:18:49 +0800 (GMT+08:00) X-CM-HeaderCharset: UTF-8 From: "Jiankang Yao" To: "John C Klensin" Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , gen-art@ietf.org, draft-ietf-regext-bundling-registration.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, regext@ietf.org Subject: Re: Re: [regext] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-regext-bundling-registration-11 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Coremail Webmail Server Version XT3.0.8 dev build 20190610(cb3344cf) Copyright (c) 2002-2019 www.mailtech.cn cnnic In-Reply-To: <5D394E0244700A5D092F1181@PSB> References: <157074817849.20459.11318968277639852496@ietfa.amsl.com> <754e85cd.1470.16dce6a353a.Coremail.yaojk@cnnic.cn> <5D394E0244700A5D092F1181@PSB> X-SendMailWithSms: false Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <66fbcb79.1705.16e316b0da2.Coremail.yaojk@cnnic.cn> X-Coremail-Locale: zh_CN X-CM-TRANSID: AQAAf0BpGL25075dTyawBA--.6595W X-CM-SenderInfo: x1dryyw6fq0xffof0/1tbiAQADDSVCN6F8nAAAse X-Coremail-Antispam: 1Ur529EdanIXcx71UUUUU7IcSsGvfJ3iIAIbVAYjsxI4VWxJw CS07vEb4IE77IF4wCS07vE1I0E4x80FVAKz4kxMIAIbVAFxVCaYxvI4VCIwcAKzIAtYxBI daVFxhVjvjDU= Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 13:18:58 -0000 DQoNCg0KPiAtLS0tLeWOn+Wni+mCruS7ti0tLS0tDQo+IOWPkeS7tuS6ujogIkpvaG4gQyBLbGVu c2luIiA8am9obi1pZXRmQGpjay5jb20+DQo+IOWPkemAgeaXtumXtDogMjAxOS0xMC0xNiAwMDo1 OTo0NyAo5pif5pyf5LiJKQ0KPiDmlLbku7bkuro6ICJKb2VsIE0uIEhhbHBlcm4iIDxqbWhAam9l bGhhbHBlcm4uY29tPiwgIkppYW5rYW5nIFlhbyIgPHlhb2prQGNubmljLmNuPg0KPiDmioTpgIE6 IGdlbi1hcnRAaWV0Zi5vcmcsIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtcmVnZXh0LWJ1bmRsaW5nLXJlZ2lzdHJhdGlv bi5hbGxAaWV0Zi5vcmcsIGlldGZAaWV0Zi5vcmcsIHJlZ2V4dEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiDkuLvpopg6 IFJlOiBbcmVnZXh0XSBHZW5hcnQgdGVsZWNoYXQgcmV2aWV3IG9mIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtcmVnZXh0 LWJ1bmRsaW5nLXJlZ2lzdHJhdGlvbi0xMQ0KPiANCj4gSm9lbCwNCj4gDQo+IExldCBtZSB0cnkg b25lIHJlYXNvbiB3aHkgdGhpcyBzaG91bGQgbm90IGJlIFN0YW5kYXJkcyBUcmFjayBvciwNCj4g aWYgaXQgc2hvdWxkLCBpdCBpc24ndCByZWFkeS4gIEl0IHVzZXMsIGFuZCBpcyBkZXBlbmRlbnQg b24sDQo+IHRlcm1pbm9sb2d5IGZvciB3aGljaCB0aGVyZSBpcyBubyBjb25zZW5zdXMgZGVmaW5p dGlvbiBhbmQgdGhhdA0KPiBpcyB1c2VkIHRvIGRlc2NyaWJlIGRpZmZlcmVudCB0aGluZ3MgaW4g dGhlIHdpbGQuICBBcyBJIHRoaW5rIEkNCj4gc3VnZ2VzdGVkIG9uZSBvZiBteSBlYXJsaWVyIG5v dGVzIGFib3V0IHRoaXMsIGl0IHdvdWxkIGJlDQo+IHBvc3NpYmxlIHRvIHNheSAidGhlc2UgdGVy bXMgbWVhbiB3aGF0ZXZlciB0aGUgcmVnaXN0cnkgc2F5cw0KPiB0aGV5IG1lYW4iLCBleHBsaWNp dGx5IGFudGljaXBhdGluZyB0aGF0IGRpZmZlcmVudCByZWdpc3RyaWVzDQo+IG1pZ2h0IHVzZSB0 aGUgZXh0ZW5zaW9uIGZvciBzbGlnaHRseSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgcHVycG9zZXMuICANCj4NCg0KRGVh ciBKb2huLA0KVGhhbmtzIGEgbG90IGZvciB5b3VyIGtpbmQgcmV2aWV3Lg0KDQpBcyB5b3UgbWVu dGlvbmVkIGl0IGluIG90aGVyIGVtYWlsLCBjdXJyZW50bHksIHRoZXJlIGhhcyBubyB1bml2ZXJz YWxseSBhZ3JlZWQgZGVmaW5pdGlvbiBhYm91dCAidmFyaWFudCIuDQpZb3Ugc2FpZCAiaXQgd291 bGQgYmUgcG9zc2libGUgdG8gc2F5ICJ0aGVzZSB0ZXJtcyBtZWFuIHdoYXRldmVyIHRoZSByZWdp c3RyeSBzYXlzIHRoZXkgbWVhbiIuIEkgYWdyZWUgd2l0aCB5b3VyIHVuZGVyc3RhbmRpbmcuDQpJ biB0aGlzIGRvY3VtZW50LCB3ZSBmb2N1cyBvbiBwb2xpY3kgYmFzZWQgZG9tYWluIG5hbWUgYnVu ZGxpbmcuIERpZmZlcmVudCByZWdpc3RyeSBtYXkgaGF2ZSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgcG9saWN5IGZvciB0 aGVpciBidW5kbGluZyBuYW1lIHJlZ2lzdHJhdGlvbiBiYXNlZCBvbiBFUFAuICBUaGUgYnVuZGxp bmcgbmFtZSByZWdpc3RyYXRpb24gc3lzdGVtIGlzIG1haW5seSB1c2VkIGJ5IHRoZSByZWdpc3Ry eSBhbmQgaXRzIHJlZ2lzdHJhcnMuIFNvbWUgcmVnYXJkcyBzYW1lbmFtZS5UTEQxIGFuZCBzYW1l bmFtZS5UTEQyIGFzIGJ1bmRsaW5nIG5hbWVzOyBzb21lIHJlZ2FyZHMgbmFtZTEuVExEIGFuZCBu YW1lMi5UTEQgYXMgdGhlIGJ1bmRsaW5nIG5hbWVzLiBIZXJlLCBuYW1lMSBtYXkgYmUgc2ltcGxl IENoaW5lc2UgbmFtZSB2ZXJpc29uLCBuYW1lMiBtYXkgYmUgdHJhZGl0aW9uYWwgQ2hpbmVzZSBu YW1lIHZlcnNpb24uIFdoYXQgaXMgbmFtZTEgYW5kIHdoYXQgaXMgbmFtZTIgYXJlIGRlZmluZWQg YnkgcmVnaXN0cnkncyBvd24gcG9saWN5Lg0KDQpUaGUgd29yZCAidmFyaWFudCIgb25seSBhcHBl YXIgaW4gdGhlIGludHJvZHVjdGlvbiBvZiB0aGlzIGRvY3VtZW50LiBJZiB5b3UgdGhpbmsgdGhh dCB0aGUgdmFyaWFudCBoYXMgbm90IGdvb2QgZGVmaW5pdGlvbiwNCmNhbiB3ZSByZW1vdmUgdGhl ICJ2YXJpYW50IiB3b3JkIGFuZCB1c2Ugb3RoZXIgd29yZCAgc3VjaCBhcyAiYnVuZGxpbmcgbmFt ZSI/DQoNCk9yIGRvIHlvdSBoYXZlIGdvb2QgdGV4dC93b3JkcyB0byBraW5kbHkgaGVscCB0byBp bXByb3ZlIHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudD8NCg0KVGhhbmtzIGEgbG90Lg0KDQpKaWFua2FuZyBZYW8NCg0K DQo= From nobody Sun Nov 3 05:48:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8411200EC; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 05:48:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3cPaPN1xKdCa; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 05:48:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out2.informatik.tu-muenchen.de (mail-out2.in.tum.de [131.159.0.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07DF3120089; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 05:48:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.in.tum.de (Postfix, from userid 107) id 4C7C81C0403; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 14:48:39 +0100 (CET) Received: (Authenticated sender: ott) by mail.in.tum.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1F0841C03FD; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 14:48:35 +0100 (CET) (Extended-Queue-bit tech_dnhcj@fff.in.tum.de) Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-dmm-pmipv6-dlif-04 To: CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO , Joerg Ott Cc: draft-ietf-dmm-pmipv6-dlif.all@ietf.org, tsv-art@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, dmm References: <157108615425.24656.12786623966649135975@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Joerg Ott Message-ID: <33569fa4-6bfb-782c-d6a5-2f25b7a4fced@in.tum.de> Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 14:48:35 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 13:48:46 -0000 Hi Carlos, thanks much, will review shortly, but this will take about a week and a bit. Best, Jörg On 02.11.19 12:45, CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO wrote: > Hi Joerg, > > We've just posted a new revision addressing your comments. > > Thanks, > > Carlos > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 1:24 PM CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO > > wrote: > > Thanks a lot Joerg for your very comprehensive review. > > We will carefully look at your comments and provide responses (with > proposals of text changes) in the next few days. I prefer to take > some time to properly address all your points. > > Thanks! > > Carlos > > On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 10:49 PM Joerg Ott via Datatracker > > wrote: > > Reviewer: Joerg Ott > Review result: Ready with Issues > > Hi, > > this document has been reviewed as part of the transport area > review team's > ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were > written > primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to > the document's > authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and > also to the IETF > discussion list for information. > > When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should > consider this > review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please > always CC > tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or > forward this review. > > The draft defines extensions to Proxy Mobile IPv6 to support a > more distributed > variant of mobility management. In essence, as a mobile node > moves from one > point of attachment (Mobility Anchor and Access Router, MAAR) to > the next, > its routing prefix with the previous MAAR(s) remain(s) and > ongoing transport > layer connections remain active and routed indirectly via the > previous MAAR, > while new ones will use the present MAAR. The interactions of > MAARs are > managed via a Central Mobility Database (CMD). > > The draft is well written and good to follow, describing the > protocols and > extensions clearly. I just have two transport-specific concern > and two general > operational issues that require further clarification in the draft. > > The transport issues: > > T1. Section 3.2. When the CMD acts as a relay for Proxy Binding > Updates (PBUs) > and Proxy Binding Acts (PBAs), the CMD may act as a relay of a > single PBU to > multiple previous MAARs. If multiple previous MAARs exist, say > k, (and there > may be numerous in case of many fast handovers, e.g., with > vehicular networks), > the CMD creates k outgoing packets from a single incoming > packet. This bears > a certain amplification risk (which may also need to be > addressed in the security > considerations section) but it also may lead to packet bursts > originated from the > CMD, albeit to different targets. Other protocols start > introducing pacing to avoid > bursts on the outgoing link, even if the packets do take > different paths in the end. > This may be worthwhile considering. > > T2. Also in section 3.2, when relaying PBAs, the CMD serves as a > transport or > application endpoint and should have a way to deal with missing > responses > (after all, this is a connectionless protocol on top of an > unreliable Internet). > A timeout is only mentioned for aggregation, but even there > there the timeout > is not specified, nor is a reference to, e.g., RFC 5213 or so to > infer a timeout > used elsewhere. > > General issues: > > G1. Section 3.2 (again) specifies that responses are aggregated > on p.10. How > does response aggregation work? How is error handling done? > > Moreover, also on p.10, further below the draft states that if a > timer expires, > the requests already received are forwarded. The missing ones > come later. > This seems to contradict aggregation because the originator (the > currently > server MAAR) does not expect more than a single response if it > sent out a > single update. This may thus require updated processing in the MAAR. > > G2. Sect. 3.3 suggests that PBAs could be sent straight from the > previous MAAR > to the current MAAR. How does this work if security associations > are supposed > to be applied? It would seem that, when following the security > considerations, > such cases are not covered. At least, this would warrant further > explanation as > in this case we suddenly have three involved security > associations, which would > also need to be established. > > G3. Sect 3.5 discusses deregistration and suggests that this can > only be done by > timeout; I understand the rationale but can any risks arise on > continued resource > consumption (DoS attacks)? > > G4. Sect. 6.: As alluded to above, the security considerations > may need expanding. > > Nits: > p.12: "information are" -> "information is" > p.12: "influence on" -> "influence" > > > > -- > Special Issue "Beyond 5G Evolution": > https://www.mdpi.com/journal/electronics/special_issues/beyond_5g > > > > -- > Special Issue "Beyond 5G Evolution": > https://www.mdpi.com/journal/electronics/special_issues/beyond_5g > > > _______________________________________________ > Tsv-art mailing list > Tsv-art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art > From nobody Sun Nov 3 07:13:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A0E120180; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 07:13:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: NomCom Chair 2019 To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.108.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org Message-ID: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 07:13:18 -0800 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 15:13:22 -0000 Community Feedback Requested! Feedback for IAB, IESG Area Directors, IETF Trust and LLC Board. The 2019-20 Nominating Committee has collected a list of willing candidates for the positions open this cycle. You can see the list at https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2019/feedback/ You may provide feedback using the web form there; it is secure. All web feedback goes into the datatracker using asymmetric encryption, which is then decrypted by the NomCom members as they read it. Your feedback can not be seen by the secretariat, the tools people, or any of the management. Your feedback through the web form is not anonymous when shown to NomCom members as you need an IETF login to provide it. If you want to give truly anonymous feedback, please contact one of the NomCom members that you trust directly, and ask him/her to relay the feedback anonymously to the NomCom. You can also submit feedback via email to nomcom-chair-2019 at ietf.org and I will enter it in the datatracker. One email per candidate, please. Please indicate if I should share your identity with the full NomCom. We will announce office hours in Singapore IETF 106 shortly. The positions to be filled and the desired expertise are found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2019/ Thank you so much for your feedback - we really value it and appreciate your time taken to submit it. regards, Victor Victor Kuarsingh victor at jvknet dot com nomcom-chair-2019 at ietf dot org From nobody Sun Nov 3 18:50:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7470D12097C for ; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 18:49:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cloudflare.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Il9vbgm9PuDU for ; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 18:49:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32d.google.com (mail-wm1-x32d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BA2312095F for ; Sun, 3 Nov 2019 18:49:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32d.google.com with SMTP id c17so7611268wmk.2 for ; Sun, 03 Nov 2019 18:49:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cloudflare.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2IC6GMmbJ7k7u88sWMlQMEKdPS9L3CmYKPj8Fwm3JyU=; b=NIgmuS6rzbh8f6geYJ2YkUnDVCtXFpzp6XdL++0ulJ/Maz48fFmu3UZ1V+RPOE7MPX HyKcXmAwHuWYyJe58oeXIjg2jd5FTU2e3KTFb1Zkf7cxO0+lxeOknGOI8tpt1U8DQaKy INSN6z9f0tvmxRMBKHsMPFj1ZNv20zNqyE7rY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2IC6GMmbJ7k7u88sWMlQMEKdPS9L3CmYKPj8Fwm3JyU=; b=NF0wdKla508MhFzpxqyOcdT5UjZsCaYG7i4D56PJwq+fFaiOqNyaC9ZjI+KrXVJeym QVBb37bIEJMyxN4CHkONMpBurgdRi+rezNu4XJPe6QIu2FlhFJGnSjRbGwXj2OgNiium 94z37BC6Eg51B9kaShsWUNuxrwrcXZ1M+BNaixTiSwjMNV4pdybxj1VhjJ63QBEeHmbB cZ7Y63BOA7EMPXT88QGwmA2xNIeOoZn610XlDq8YSZ30tmj+U2u+HyW8kQ6MHSQ2m1Ps TPU1tGjVDT8gGC/GnLlhzUN9li2725L8QgmUURkrKkkh1VvxHB9NDRYUXYaa42lpIudc Nwzg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVvsk3pUZl51EsrhJtQ1Gaflf7YjBEQsrEl7c7PbbvJnI6C4nLt rnb8+nq7bbecuEuk/Nb7lbWevVtXgFCMeAa1VpjHww== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxfPNR2fEA1ymACxfVJMn+s1by5Rms2jMrkYM9/QqrZSCuxkvqAj56tHZ1nUWIA2zFVz1ZnNJhwXg+9ZpGNhGI= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:6a1a:: with SMTP id f26mr14004188wmc.19.1572835792591; Sun, 03 Nov 2019 18:49:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156330717256.15259.2193942101748847069@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Nick Sullivan Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 18:49:36 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-tls-exported-authenticator-09 To: Yaron Sheffer Cc: secdir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-tls-exported-authenticator.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, "" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b54e4905967c5ec3" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 02:50:03 -0000 --000000000000b54e4905967c5ec3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Following up, Yaron, do the responses by myself and Benjamin along with the does the following PR sufficiently address your comments/concerns? https://github.com/tlswg/tls-exported-authenticator/pull/52 On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 4:55 PM Nick Sullivan wrote: > Hi Yaron, > > Thank you for your thorough review. My answers will be inline, and I'll > incorporate some of Ben's replies if necessary. Here's a PR with proposed > changes in response to your comments: > https://github.com/tlswg/tls-exported-authenticator/pull/52 > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 12:59 PM Yaron Sheffer via Datatracker < > noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > >> Reviewer: Yaron Sheffer >> Review result: Has Issues >> >> The document is generally clear in both its motivation and the proposed >> solution. >> >> I think it's playing a bit too liberal with TLS 1.3, in sort-of but not >> quite >> deprecating renegotiation, and in changing the IANA registry in a way that >> actually changes the protocol. Details below. >> >> Other comments: >> >> * Abstract: please reword to make it clear that it's the proof (not the >> cert) >> that is portable. > > > Proposed text here: > This document describes a mechanism in Transport Layer Security (TLS) for > peers to > provide a proof of ownership of a certificate. This proof can be exported > by one peer, transmitted out-of-band to the other peer, and verified by > the receiving peer. > > * Introduction: TLS 1.3 post-handshake auth "has the >> disadvantage of requiring additional state to be stored as part of the TLS >> state machine." Why is that an issue is practice, assuming this feature is >> already supported by TLS libraries? Also, are we in effect deprecating >> this TLS >> 1.3 feature because of the security issue of the mismatched record >> boundaries? >> > > My understanding is that post-handshake authentication as defined in the > TLS 1.3 RFC is not implemented in many (any?) TLS 1.3 libraries and some > implementors would prefer to use exported authenticators. > > * "For simplicity, the mechanisms... require", maybe a normative REQUIRE? > > I'm fine with this. > > >> * Authenticator Request: please clarify that we use the TLS 1.3 format >> even when >> running on TLS 1.2. > > Updated, though it might be a bit unnecessary. > > * Also, I suggest to change "is not encrypted with a >> handshake key" which is too specific to "is sent unencrypted within the >> normal >> TLS-protected data". > > This specific text is meant to differentiate the wire format of this > message from that of the CertificateRequest message, which is encrypted > with the handshake key. The specificity is warranted. > > * Before diving into the detailed messages in Sec. 3, it >> would be nice to include a quick overview of the message sequence. > > There are two message types and three potential sequences. I've added a > short overview. > > >> * Sec. 3: >> "SHOULD use TLS", change to MUST. There's no way it can work otherwise >> anyway. >> > As Ben noted, this could be any secure channel with equivalent security to > TLS, such as QUIC. We shouldn't forbid other secure out-of-band mechanisms. > > >> * "This message reuses the structure to the CertificateRequest message" - >> repeats the preceding paragraph. > > Fixed > > >> * Sec. 4: again, SHOULD use TLS -> MUST. > > Again, I don't see the need for a MUST here. > > >> * Is >> there a requirement for all protocol messages to be sent over a single TLS >> connection? If so, please mention it. Certainly this is true for the >> Authenticator message that must be sent over a single connection and >> cannot be >> multiplexed by the high-level protocol. I think this protocol actually >> assumes >> "nice" transport properties (no message reorder, reliability) that also >> require >> a single, clean TLS connection. > > There is no such requirement. Message ordering is managed by the > application layer protocol that utilizes exported authenticators. > > >> * Why no authenticator request for servers? >> Don't we care about replay? OTOH if the client wants to detect replays, it >> would need to keep state on received authenticators, which would be very >> messy. >> > I'm not sure I understand. It's possible to use authenticator requests for > servers. > > * 4.1: when referencing Exporters, mention this is Sec. 7.5 of [TLS1.3]. > > Added "Sec. 7.5" > > * The >> discussion of Extended Master Secret only applies to TLS 1.2 - please >> clarify >> that, plus I suggest to reword this paragraph which I find hard to parse. > > re-worded > > * >> 4.2: "the extensions are chosen from the TLS handshake." - What does it >> mean >> exactly, and how does an application even know which extensions were used >> at >> the TLS layer? Reading further, we mention "ClientHello extensions." >> Maybe the >> authenticator should also include a ClientHello message to indicate >> supported >> extensions. Assuming we can peek into ClientHello contradicts the hopeful >> "even >> if it is possible to implement it at the application layer" in Sec. 6. > > > This could be clearer. Effectively, the Certificate message in the > Authenticator needs > to be constructed in a similar manner to how a Certificate message would > be created > in a TLS handshake. Namely, it can only contain extensions that were > present in either > the client hello or a preceding CertificateRequest. > > You're right that this makes an assumption that the party creating the > Authenticator > has access to the TLS handshake state. This implies that even if the > Authenticator > is created in the application space, an additional API needs to be exposed > to share > that information. > > * 4.2.1: >> the first sentence of the section is incomplete. > > > Fixed > > >> * Can I use TLS 1.3-specific >> extensions (oid_filters) if I'm running on a TLS 1.2 connection? Is there >> a >> situation where a certificate is acceptable for TLS 1.3 connections but >> not for >> TLS 1.2 connections? > > Yes TLS 1.3-specific extensions are allowed, the CertificateRequest > message is TLS 1.3-compatible. > > >> * "using a value derived from the connection secrets" - I >> think we should recommend a specific construction here to ensure people >> do it >> securely. > > This was a suggestion from the Additional Certificates use case ( > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bishop-httpbis-http2-additional-certs-05). > I'm not sure we should get into the details here. > > >> * 4.2.3: Are we computing HMAC(MAC-key, Hash(a || b || c || d))? If >> so, please say so. > > Yes, I'll put that in. > > * 4.2.4: "a constant-time comparison" - why is it actually >> required, what is the threat? An attacker can do very little because each >> authenticator being sent is different. > > As Ben noted, this was a safety note added during review. > > >> * 5: please say explicitly which >> messages are used in this case to construct the authenticator. > > > Re-written. > >> * 6.1: the >> "MUST" is strange in a section that's only supposed to be informative. >> Also, >> the library may provide this extension (and possibly others) without >> requiring >> it as input. > > How else do you propose wording the requirement that this API fail if the > connection doesn't support EAs? > > >> * 6.4: "The API MUST return a failure if the >> certificate_request_context of the authenticator was used in a previously >> validated authenticator." Are we requiring the library to keep previous >> contexts for replay protection? If so, please make it explicit. > > I think this can be a SHOULD based on the burden replay protection places > on the implementation. > > >> * 7.1: this is >> changing TLS 1.3 by allowing this extension in Cert Request! I think it's >> a >> really bad idea. Better to hack special support to existing libraries, >> allowing >> this specific extension for this special case, than to change the base >> protocol. Otherwise, this document should UPDATE 8446. > > > This is a good point and one that we struggled a bit with during design. > We needed to allow SNI in the CertificateRequest message because it can be > client-generated in this context. I'd be ok with creating a different > extension for this, but it's rather elegant to re-use it in this context. *I'd > like to hear some opinions from the working group* on this point > > >> * 8: I think the >> Security Considerations is the right place to talk about interaction >> between >> this protocol and TLS 1.3 (or 1.2) renegotiation. Even if we simply >> RECOMMEND >> not to do it. Or else explain the use cases where renegotiation is still >> useful >> if there are any. >> > > I'm not sure this document should be prescriptive about use cases. This > doc is providing a new capability that may be leveraged at the application > to replace the functionality of existing mechanisms, but I'm not convinced > the evaluation of the trade-offs of different mechanisms should be > contained in this document. > --000000000000b54e4905967c5ec3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Following up,

Yaron, do the responses b= y myself and Benjamin along with the=C2=A0does the following PR sufficientl= y address your comments/concerns?


On Wed, Sep 18= , 2019 at 4:55 PM Nick Sullivan <= nick@cloudflare.com> wrote:
Hi=C2=A0Yaron,

Thank= you for your thorough review. My answers will be inline, and I'll inco= rporate=C2=A0some of Ben's replies if necessary. Here's a PR with p= roposed changes in response to your comments:
<= br>
O= n Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 12:59 PM Yaron Sheffer via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wro= te:
Reviewer: Ya= ron Sheffer
Review result: Has Issues

The document is generally clear in both its motivation and the proposed
solution.

I think it's playing a bit too liberal with TLS 1.3, in sort-of but not= quite
deprecating renegotiation, and in changing the IANA registry in a way that<= br> actually changes the protocol. Details below.

Other comments:

* Abstract: please reword to make it clear that it's the proof (not the= cert)
that is portable.

Proposed text here:
=
This document describes a mechanism in Transport Layer Security (TLS) = for peers to
provide a proof of ownership of a certificate.=C2=A0 This p= roof can be exported
by one peer, transmitted out-of-band to the other p= eer, and verified by the receiving peer.

* Introduction: TLS 1.3 post-handsh= ake auth "has the
disadvantage of requiring additional state to be stored as part of the TLS<= br> state machine." Why is that an issue is practice, assuming this featur= e is
already supported by TLS libraries? Also, are we in effect deprecating this= TLS
1.3 feature because of the security issue of the mismatched record boundari= es?

My understanding is that post-hands= hake authentication=C2=A0as defined in the TLS 1.3 RFC is not implemented = in many (any?) TLS 1.3 libraries and some implementors=C2=A0would prefer to= use exported authenticators.

* "For simplicity, the mechanisms... require", maybe a normative = REQUIRE?
I'm fine with this.
=C2=A0
* Authenticator Request: ple= ase clarify that we use the TLS 1.3 format even when
running on TLS 1.2.
=C2=A0Updated, though it might be a bi= t unnecessary.

* Also, I suggest to change "is not encrypted with a
handshake key" which is too specific to "is sent unencrypted with= in the normal
TLS-protected data".
This specific text is meant to d= ifferentiate the wire format of this message from that of the CertificateRe= quest message, which is encrypted with the handshake key. The specificity i= s warranted.

* Before diving into the detailed messages in Sec. 3, it
would be nice to include a quick overview of the message sequence.
There are two message types and three potential sequences. I'v= e added a short overview.
=C2=A0
* Sec. 3:
"SHOULD use TLS", change to MUST. There's no way it can work = otherwise anyway.
As Ben noted, this could be any secu= re channel with equivalent security to TLS, such as QUIC. We shouldn't = forbid other secure out-of-band mechanisms.
=C2=A0
* "This message reuses the structure to the CertificateRequest message= " -
repeats the preceding paragraph.
Fixed
=C2=A0
* Sec. 4: again, SHOUL= D use TLS -> MUST.
Again, I don't see the need for = a MUST here.
=C2=A0
* Is
there a requirement for all protocol messages to be sent over a single TLS<= br> connection? If so, please mention it. Certainly this is true for the
Authenticator message that must be sent over a single connection and cannot= be
multiplexed by the high-level protocol. I think this protocol actually assu= mes
"nice" transport properties (no message reorder, reliability) tha= t also require
a single, clean TLS connection.
There is no such requireme= nt. Message ordering is managed by the application layer protocol that util= izes exported authenticators.
=C2=A0
* Why no authenticator request for servers?
Don't we care about replay? OTOH if the client wants to detect replays,= it
would need to keep state on received authenticators, which would be very me= ssy.
I'm not sure I understand. It's possib= le to use authenticator requests for servers.

* 4.1: when referencing Exporters,= mention this is Sec. 7.5 of [TLS1.3].
Added=C2=A0 "S= ec. 7.5"

* The
discussion of Extended Master Secret only applies to TLS 1.2 - please clari= fy
that, plus I suggest to reword this paragraph which I find hard to parse.
re-worded

*
4.2: "the extensions are chosen from the TLS handshake." - What d= oes it mean
exactly, and how does an application even know which extensions were used a= t
the TLS layer? Reading further, we mention "ClientHello extensions.&qu= ot; Maybe the
authenticator should also include a ClientHello message to indicate support= ed
extensions. Assuming we can peek into ClientHello contradicts the hopeful &= quot;even
if it is possible to implement it at the application layer" in Sec. 6.=

This could be clearer. Effectively, the Ce= rtificate message in the Authenticator needs
to be constructed in= a similar manner to how a Certificate message would be created
i= n a TLS handshake. Namely, it can only contain extensions that were present= in either
the client hello or a preceding=C2=A0CertificateReques= t.

You're right that this makes an assumption = that the party creating the Authenticator
has access to the TLS h= andshake state. This implies that even if the Authenticator
is cr= eated in the application space, an additional API needs to be exposed to sh= are
that information.

* 4.2.1:
the first sentence of the section is incomplete.

Fixed
=C2=A0
* Can I use TLS 1.3-specific
extensions (oid_filters) if I'm running on a TLS 1.2 connection? Is the= re a
situation where a certificate is acceptable for TLS 1.3 connections but not= for
TLS 1.2 connections?
Yes TLS 1.3-specific extensions are a= llowed, the CertificateRequest message is TLS 1.3-compatible.
=C2= =A0
* "using a = value derived from the connection secrets" - I
think we should recommend a specific construction here to ensure people do = it
securely.
This was a suggestion from the Additional Certif= icates use case (https://tools.ietf.org/html/= draft-bishop-httpbis-http2-additional-certs-05). I'm not sure we sh= ould get into the details here.
=C2=A0
* 4.2.3: Are we computing HMAC(MAC-key, Hash(a= || b || c || d))? If
so, please say so.
Yes, I'll put that in.
* 4.2.4: "a = constant-time comparison" - why is it actually
required, what is the threat? An attacker can do very little because each authenticator being sent is different.
As Ben noted, this = was a safety note added during review.
=C2=A0
* 5: please say explicitly which
messages are used in this case to construct the authenticator.
=

Re-written.=C2=A0
* 6.1: the
"MUST" is strange in a section that's only supposed to be inf= ormative. Also,
the library may provide this extension (and possibly others) without requir= ing
it as input.
How else do you propose wording the requireme= nt that this API fail if the connection doesn't support EAs?
= =C2=A0
* 6.4: "= The API MUST return a failure if the
certificate_request_context of the authenticator was used in a previously validated authenticator." Are we requiring the library to keep previou= s
contexts for replay protection? If so, please make it explicit.
I think this can be a SHOULD based on the burden replay protection pl= aces on the implementation.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
*=C2=A0 7.1: this is
changing TLS 1.3 by allowing this extension in Cert Request! I think it'= ;s a
really bad idea. Better to hack special support to existing libraries, allo= wing
this specific extension for this special case, than to change the base
protocol. Otherwise, this document should UPDATE 8446.
This is a good point and one that we struggled a bit with durin= g design. We needed to allow SNI in the CertificateRequest message because = it can be client-generated in this context. I'd be ok with creating a d= ifferent extension for this, but it's rather elegant to re-use it in th= is context. I'd like to hear some opinions from the working group on this point
=C2=A0
* 8: I think the
Security Considerations is the right place to talk about interaction betwee= n
this protocol and TLS 1.3 (or 1.2) renegotiation. Even if we simply RECOMME= ND
not to do it. Or else explain the use cases where renegotiation is still us= eful
if there are any.

I'm not sure this= document should be prescriptive about use cases. This doc is providing a n= ew capability that may be leveraged at the application to replace the funct= ionality of existing mechanisms, but I'm not convinced the evaluation o= f the trade-offs of different mechanisms should be contained in this docume= nt.
--000000000000b54e4905967c5ec3-- From nobody Mon Nov 4 01:24:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9616C120E2E for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:24:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D185EKPVQ4Ru; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:24:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32e.google.com (mail-wm1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DECD9120DBF; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:24:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id 6so13577984wmf.0; Mon, 04 Nov 2019 01:24:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=8czQhwrwhUGv6MV8TGkBd27cwEs92OX9pxRcSIJR4A4=; b=qlcd9ow1J12kS7UA4vXw7mHB22k1S1gUuZQ3GPYFc9UlAKcHTqn8o6e/CPJxW+986O e0975ZxDWOmurZYqAXNEz9aA4emlSFakRPnos4gf55uaWHg3mV3DSytUtnqlrpwBq/W2 hXbFpvxVt3jWoXcJK5/KEMMh70GG0Kk5dZEFGikIB+WJhKDdJKS19tWx3yeUECKtczhi LB4pcVR3yEDE44FCKRZFeGixAhi5PoT7lptHN6K2pBNJOQ6lhLUAF2Xc/WaUX36htDrI 9EWZLsb+KC+7MjqktJ6N7Xeg+ei2EEncEI5V30aZ9gGfMP1Qx+j2ILDNzPE5FTitv3D7 UJ7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=8czQhwrwhUGv6MV8TGkBd27cwEs92OX9pxRcSIJR4A4=; b=AKXbyO1uYVogRu+B5H8CIxmxmaNuELOawLO5iTUk+F5/CDWe6g2CNFdaw5VvMrYzZf 5JWf+R0gRZ2lDaShgi8gbaR+KHDJpWKgDtn6Be0sVPwxQ16+hGJUgbocgu631SY1f85+ m4sgEBofXuysZ5yfN6AEuJXBCenmFQ01PZ7epWOE8GNbhs16ZYjbnVdxDrYLHmVOod3w DR3ycbd3KQdmG31v4854PFw5VaCr4g8sHQHZBH3Lp17U2QsBpk7/W2oWRXkUQ6Us5MCK S33E2gVJuECYUMpJcH1Mrna/kqCKDuwfmq6/q66i3Yt6HsRdWfJaCWuZlRFENYozQ2l1 MBjA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXpEWmpHpXQriobpIKUll11T/Fh+3Y0axDjjt+jyPToS9fvL1Js 6crzDxjXRItehzElkIB7xLl0Rmke7l8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyjdvXhJWeiR2whYXm85kDSYcjQ+7P6C2NRPrgONQR8B5PnfABijS8DiiTdsY2tKxwQdvHr8Q== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:30b:: with SMTP id 11mr20312166wmd.171.1572859444972; Mon, 04 Nov 2019 01:24:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.46] ([62.3.64.16]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g5sm7927658wmf.37.2019.11.04.01.24.03 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 04 Nov 2019 01:24:03 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback From: Stewart Bryant In-Reply-To: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 09:23:33 +0000 Cc: nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: ietf X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 09:24:12 -0000 Am I alone in being both surprised and disappointed at the small number = of candidates that Nomcom has for a number of the IESG positions? 5/2/2/1/1/2 Best regards Stewart > On 3 Nov 2019, at 15:13, NomCom Chair 2019 = wrote: >=20 > Community Feedback Requested! >=20 > Feedback for IAB, IESG Area Directors, IETF Trust and LLC Board. >=20 > The 2019-20 Nominating Committee has collected a list of willing > candidates for the positions open this cycle. You can see the list at=20= > https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2019/feedback/ >=20 > You may provide feedback using the web form there; it is secure. =20 > All web feedback goes into the datatracker using asymmetric=20 > encryption, which is then decrypted by the NomCom members=20 > as they read it. Your feedback can not be seen by the secretariat, = the=20 > tools people, or any of the management. >=20 > Your feedback through the web form is not anonymous when shown to > NomCom members as you need an IETF login to provide it. >=20 > If you want to give truly anonymous feedback, please contact one=20 > of the NomCom members that you trust directly, and ask him/her to > relay the feedback anonymously to the NomCom. >=20 > You can also submit feedback via email to nomcom-chair-2019 at=20 > ietf.org and I will enter it in the datatracker. One email per=20 > candidate, please. Please indicate if I should share your identity > with the full NomCom. >=20 > We will announce office hours in Singapore IETF 106 shortly. >=20 > The positions to be filled and the desired expertise are found here: >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2019/ >=20 > Thank you so much for your feedback - we really value it and=20 > appreciate your time taken to submit it. >=20 >=20 > regards, > Victor =20 >=20 > Victor Kuarsingh > victor at jvknet dot com > nomcom-chair-2019 at ietf dot org >=20 > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce From nobody Mon Nov 4 02:20:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AC6D12096E; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 02:20:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.837 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.837 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MALFORMED_FREEMAIL=1.159, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WogOAV2_phdv; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 02:20:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x431.google.com (mail-wr1-x431.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::431]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76622120100; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 02:20:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x431.google.com with SMTP id l10so16353480wrb.2; Mon, 04 Nov 2019 02:20:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=user-agent:date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id:thread-topic :references:in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=ipg6iU+jMB5XAKE2RJKv2PW3WR1ODcyvdnHRVdOYAxU=; b=tZrrbM0AOvdQIwHO19lIPT9Yzc+iBtiw2fEk03FIj6dWnRK5rXAt6atAWn8lkMfMrD mpcIhgCduFJnWrOe9fJUULVVZA8Fl9Z7dEWuzH6Ao8lSVd/z0NG435NiSgMCtk9+3xCc 8yaNdEbrGicJyAmxPNO49cB1mKUPTZtibm4TGY5YHUvJwntpDtxX65I3/r+Q9QYF15oC VwdkMuhDkJLajY48ATYJprBCqvNEautTRpORsqwHNjpeRBPKZfJqx0RMTeLldYa4xx03 EkCFctcwRP7ZdEo1l73sF5ptIHuk6AcvZACApcwIitardFWmiGLd5huPOOnu7+yLfZs8 U+yQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:user-agent:date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id :thread-topic:references:in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=ipg6iU+jMB5XAKE2RJKv2PW3WR1ODcyvdnHRVdOYAxU=; b=HIGPzO/UNryFda5GjmwrnpCcgGaBnEhBzD3eHU1+Qr494JayGO22BZ/GLqgFKKf6DI mNPCdRKn8wNTtOBCv1QxicbmPXU/9X/e8++jDCeyo54lhsxfOeVCdBfJVuhjsscm8obx zo8rLAgwT3L6dK2RLVY/Rf2A16k/5AkyTTckWWRDUjpwwAJVQQeY+0sStXUADZGxEFLj 6hBEw+D83YAoveRRCQaD/kJ2FW6r9Z4ITAfcmAKYwQvYkPdjpC4Ej1TPqGeZMF/Fw2r8 uaLjsUWXuHUeQ2f++G+am8B2eUJe1/IumMxjwreJGAeTLURY/Eg+pmH1PyCSH5BLPI2p agyw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWqkDC0j47h2taI8+CRfr1/YA2bcZff0s+r8xTXivcfwIe5lAXj S1JteVXo96HrNck1kdsEUm92rNEb X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxXoizjVjo3t133xDZSZMCiHWi3hoQIwfCi/sE7fAIicKWF9YoPzrj41gXKMxyWDSmBM1cFIA== X-Received: by 2002:adf:fd4a:: with SMTP id h10mr20993447wrs.90.1572862847815; Mon, 04 Nov 2019 02:20:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.28.128.176] (pub-corp-42-8.intuit.com. [91.102.42.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h205sm17923358wmf.35.2019.11.04.02.20.45 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 04 Nov 2019 02:20:46 -0800 (PST) User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1e.0.191013 Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 12:20:45 +0200 Subject: Re: Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-tls-exported-authenticator-09 From: Yaron Sheffer To: Nick Sullivan CC: , , , "" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-tls-exported-authenticator-09 References: <156330717256.15259.2193942101748847069@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3655714846_1726106478" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 10:20:52 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3655714846_1726106478 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Nick, =20 Apologies for not responding on time. =20 I may be missing some follow-on discussions, but: =20 Ben suggested that we mention that QUIC is also an option, even if informat= ively, in addition to the =E2=80=9CSHOULD use TLS=E2=80=9D statement. I think we left my question re: back-fitting this protocol into the IANA TL= S registry open. Quoting:=20 =20 YS: 7.1: this is changing TLS 1.3 by allowing this extension in Cert Reques= t! I think it's a really bad idea. Better to hack special support to existin= g libraries, allowing this specific extension for this special case, than to= change the base protocol. Otherwise, this document should UPDATE 8446. =20 NS: This is a good point and one that we struggled a bit with during design= . We needed to allow SNI in the CertificateRequest message because it can be= client-generated in this context. I'd be ok with creating a different exten= sion for this, but it's rather elegant to re-use it in this context. *I'd li= ke to hear some opinions from the working group* on this point =20 BK: Or, since extension codepoints are cheap, just use a new codepoint. =20 Thanks, =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron =20 From: Nick Sullivan Date: Monday, November 4, 2019 at 04:49 To: Yaron Sheffer Cc: , = , , "" Subject: Re: Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-tls-exported-authenticat= or-09 =20 Following up, =20 Yaron, do the responses by myself and Benjamin along with the does the foll= owing PR sufficiently address your comments/concerns? =20 https://github.com/tlswg/tls-exported-authenticator/pull/52 =20 On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 4:55 PM Nick Sullivan wrote: Hi Yaron, =20 Thank you for your thorough review. My answers will be inline, and I'll inc= orporate some of Ben's replies if necessary. Here's a PR with proposed chang= es in response to your comments: https://github.com/tlswg/tls-exported-authenticator/pull/52 =20 On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 12:59 PM Yaron Sheffer via Datatracker wrote: Reviewer: Yaron Sheffer Review result: Has Issues The document is generally clear in both its motivation and the proposed solution. I think it's playing a bit too liberal with TLS 1.3, in sort-of but not qui= te deprecating renegotiation, and in changing the IANA registry in a way that actually changes the protocol. Details below. Other comments: * Abstract: please reword to make it clear that it's the proof (not the cer= t) that is portable. =20 Proposed text here: This document describes a mechanism in Transport Layer Security (TLS) for p= eers to provide a proof of ownership of a certificate. This proof can be exported by one peer, transmitted out-of-band to the other peer, and verified by the= receiving peer. =20 * Introduction: TLS 1.3 post-handshake auth "has the disadvantage of requiring additional state to be stored as part of the TLS state machine." Why is that an issue is practice, assuming this feature is already supported by TLS libraries? Also, are we in effect deprecating this= TLS 1.3 feature because of the security issue of the mismatched record boundari= es? =20 My understanding is that post-handshake authentication as defined in the TL= S 1.3 RFC is not implemented in many (any?) TLS 1.3 libraries and some imple= mentors would prefer to use exported authenticators. =20 * "For simplicity, the mechanisms... require", maybe a normative REQUIRE? I'm fine with this. =20 * Authenticator Request: please clarify that we use the TLS 1.3 format even= when running on TLS 1.2. Updated, though it might be a bit unnecessary. =20 * Also, I suggest to change "is not encrypted with a handshake key" which is too specific to "is sent unencrypted within the nor= mal TLS-protected data". This specific text is meant to differentiate the wire format of this messag= e from that of the CertificateRequest message, which is encrypted with the h= andshake key. The specificity is warranted. =20 * Before diving into the detailed messages in Sec. 3, it would be nice to include a quick overview of the message sequence. There are two message types and three potential sequences. I've added a sho= rt overview. =20 * Sec. 3: "SHOULD use TLS", change to MUST. There's no way it can work otherwise anyw= ay. As Ben noted, this could be any secure channel with equivalent security to = TLS, such as QUIC. We shouldn't forbid other secure out-of-band mechanisms. =20 * "This message reuses the structure to the CertificateRequest message" - repeats the preceding paragraph. Fixed =20 * Sec. 4: again, SHOULD use TLS -> MUST. Again, I don't see the need for a MUST here. =20 * Is there a requirement for all protocol messages to be sent over a single TLS connection? If so, please mention it. Certainly this is true for the Authenticator message that must be sent over a single connection and cannot= be multiplexed by the high-level protocol. I think this protocol actually assu= mes "nice" transport properties (no message reorder, reliability) that also req= uire a single, clean TLS connection. There is no such requirement. Message ordering is managed by the applicatio= n layer protocol that utilizes exported authenticators. =20 * Why no authenticator request for servers? Don't we care about replay? OTOH if the client wants to detect replays, it would need to keep state on received authenticators, which would be very me= ssy. I'm not sure I understand. It's possible to use authenticator requests for = servers. =20 * 4.1: when referencing Exporters, mention this is Sec. 7.5 of [TLS1.3]. Added "Sec. 7.5" =20 * The discussion of Extended Master Secret only applies to TLS 1.2 - please clari= fy that, plus I suggest to reword this paragraph which I find hard to parse. re-worded =20 * 4.2: "the extensions are chosen from the TLS handshake." - What does it mea= n exactly, and how does an application even know which extensions were used a= t the TLS layer? Reading further, we mention "ClientHello extensions." Maybe = the authenticator should also include a ClientHello message to indicate support= ed extensions. Assuming we can peek into ClientHello contradicts the hopeful "= even if it is possible to implement it at the application layer" in Sec. 6. =20 This could be clearer. Effectively, the Certificate message in the Authenti= cator needs to be constructed in a similar manner to how a Certificate message would be= created in a TLS handshake. Namely, it can only contain extensions that were presen= t in either the client hello or a preceding CertificateRequest. =20 You're right that this makes an assumption that the party creating the Auth= enticator has access to the TLS handshake state. This implies that even if the Authen= ticator is created in the application space, an additional API needs to be exposed = to share that information. =20 * 4.2.1: the first sentence of the section is incomplete. =20 Fixed =20 * Can I use TLS 1.3-specific extensions (oid_filters) if I'm running on a TLS 1.2 connection? Is there a situation where a certificate is acceptable for TLS 1.3 connections but not= for TLS 1.2 connections? Yes TLS 1.3-specific extensions are allowed, the CertificateRequest message= is TLS 1.3-compatible. =20 * "using a value derived from the connection secrets" - I think we should recommend a specific construction here to ensure people do = it securely. This was a suggestion from the Additional Certificates use case (https://to= ols.ietf.org/html/draft-bishop-httpbis-http2-additional-certs-05). I'm not s= ure we should get into the details here. =20 * 4.2.3: Are we computing HMAC(MAC-key, Hash(a || b || c || d))? If so, please say so. Yes, I'll put that in. =20 * 4.2.4: "a constant-time comparison" - why is it actually required, what is the threat? An attacker can do very little because each authenticator being sent is different. As Ben noted, this was a safety note added during review. =20 * 5: please say explicitly which messages are used in this case to construct the authenticator. =20 Re-written.=20 * 6.1: the "MUST" is strange in a section that's only supposed to be informative. Also= , the library may provide this extension (and possibly others) without requir= ing it as input. How else do you propose wording the requirement that this API fail if the c= onnection doesn't support EAs? =20 * 6.4: "The API MUST return a failure if the certificate_request_context of the authenticator was used in a previously validated authenticator." Are we requiring the library to keep previous contexts for replay protection? If so, please make it explicit. I think this can be a SHOULD based on the burden replay protection places o= n the implementation.=20 =20 * 7.1: this is changing TLS 1.3 by allowing this extension in Cert Request! I think it's a really bad idea. Better to hack special support to existing libraries, allo= wing this specific extension for this special case, than to change the base protocol. Otherwise, this document should UPDATE 8446. =20 This is a good point and one that we struggled a bit with during design. We= needed to allow SNI in the CertificateRequest message because it can be cli= ent-generated in this context. I'd be ok with creating a different extension= for this, but it's rather elegant to re-use it in this context. I'd like to= hear some opinions from the working group on this point =20 * 8: I think the Security Considerations is the right place to talk about interaction betwee= n this protocol and TLS 1.3 (or 1.2) renegotiation. Even if we simply RECOMME= ND not to do it. Or else explain the use cases where renegotiation is still us= eful if there are any. =20 I'm not sure this document should be prescriptive about use cases. This doc= is providing a new capability that may be leveraged at the application to r= eplace the functionality of existing mechanisms, but I'm not convinced the e= valuation of the trade-offs of different mechanisms should be contained in t= his document. --B_3655714846_1726106478 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Nick,

&nb= sp;

Apologies for not responding on time.

 

I may be = missing some follow-on discussions, but:

 

  • Ben suggested that we= mention that QUIC is also an option, even if informatively, in addition to = the =E2=80=9CSHOULD use TLS=E2=80=9D statement.
  • I think we left my questio= n re: back-fitting this protocol into the IANA TLS registry open. Quoting: <= o:p>

 

YS: 7.1: this is changing TLS 1.3 by allowing this extension in Cert Requ= est! I think it's a really bad idea. Better to hack special support to exist= ing libraries, allowing this specific extension for this special case, than = to change the base protocol. Otherwise, this document should UPDATE 8446.

 

NS: T= his is a good point and one that we struggled a bit with during design. We n= eeded to allow SNI in the CertificateRequest message because it can be clien= t-generated in this context. I'd be ok with creating a different extension f= or this, but it's rather elegant to re-use it in this context. *I'd like to = hear some opinions from the working group* on this point

 

BK: Or, since extensio= n codepoints are cheap, just use a new codepoint.

 

Thanks,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron

 

From: Nick Sullivan <nick@cloudflare.com>
Date: Monday, Nove= mber 4, 2019 at 04:49
To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com&= gt;
Cc: <secdir@ietf.org>, <draft-ietf-tls-exported-authe= nticator.all@ietf.org>, <ietf@ietf.org>, "<tls@ietf.org>= " <tls@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Secdir last call review o= f draft-ietf-tls-exported-authenticator-09

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

Followi= ng up,

 

Yaron, do the responses by myself and Benjamin along wit= h the does the following PR sufficiently address your comments/concerns= ?

 

https://github.com/tlswg/tls-exported-authenticator/pull/52

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal>On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 4:55 PM Nick Sullivan <nick@cloudflare.com> wrote:

Hi Yaron,

 <= /p>

Thank you for your thorough review. My answ= ers will be inline, and I'll incorporate some of Ben's replies if neces= sary. Here's a PR with proposed changes in response to your comments:

 

On Tue, Jul 16, = 2019 at 12:59 PM Yaron Sheffer via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

Reviewe= r: Yaron Sheffer
Review result: Has Issues

The document is general= ly clear in both its motivation and the proposed
solution.

I think= it's playing a bit too liberal with TLS 1.3, in sort-of but not quite
de= precating renegotiation, and in changing the IANA registry in a way that
= actually changes the protocol. Details below.

Other comments:

= * Abstract: please reword to make it clear that it's the proof (not the cert= )
that is portable.

 

Proposed text here:

This document describes a mechanism in = Transport Layer Security (TLS) for peers to
provide a proof of ownership = of a certificate.  This proof can be exported
by one peer, transmitt= ed out-of-band to the other peer, and verified by the receiving peer.

 

* Introduction: TLS= 1.3 post-handshake auth "has the
disadvantage of requiring addition= al state to be stored as part of the TLS
state machine." Why is that= an issue is practice, assuming this feature is
already supported by TLS = libraries? Also, are we in effect deprecating this TLS
1.3 feature becaus= e of the security issue of the mismatched record boundaries?

<= /blockquote>

 

My understanding is that post-handshake authentication as de= fined in the TLS 1.3 RFC is not implemented in many (any?) TLS 1.3 libraries= and some implementors would prefer to use exported authenticators.

 

* "For simp= licity, the mechanisms... require", maybe a normative REQUIRE?

I'm fine with this.

 

* Authenticator Request: p= lease clarify that we use the TLS 1.3 format even when
running on TLS 1.2= .

 Updated, though i= t might be a bit unnecessary.

 

* Also, I suggest to change "is not encrypted with ahandshake key" which is too specific to "is sent unencrypted wit= hin the normal
TLS-protected data".

=

This specific text is meant to differentiate the wire for= mat of this message from that of the CertificateRequest message, which is en= crypted with the handshake key. The specificity is warranted.

=

 

* Before diving into the de= tailed messages in Sec. 3, it
would be nice to include a quick overview o= f the message sequence.

T= here are two message types and three potential sequences. I've added a short= overview.

 

=

* = Sec. 3:
"SHOULD use TLS", change to MUST. There's no way it can= work otherwise anyway.

A= s Ben noted, this could be any secure channel with equivalent security to TL= S, such as QUIC. We shouldn't forbid other secure out-of-band mechanisms.

 

* "This me= ssage reuses the structure to the CertificateRequest message" -
repe= ats the preceding paragraph.

Fixed

 

<= /div>

* S= ec. 4: again, SHOULD use TLS -> MUST.

Again, I don't see the need for a MUST here.

<= /div>

 

* Is
there a requirement = for all protocol messages to be sent over a single TLS
connection? If so,= please mention it. Certainly this is true for the
Authenticator message = that must be sent over a single connection and cannot be
multiplexed by t= he high-level protocol. I think this protocol actually assumes
"nice= " transport properties (no message reorder, reliability) that also requ= ire
a single, clean TLS connection.

There is no such requirement. Message ordering is managed by t= he application layer protocol that utilizes exported authenticators.

 

* Why no authenticat= or request for servers?
Don't we care about replay? OTOH if the client wa= nts to detect replays, it
would need to keep state on received authentica= tors, which would be very messy.

I'm not sure I understand. It's possible to use authenticator reques= ts for servers.

 

* 4.1: when referencing Exporters, mention this is Sec. 7.5 of [TLS1.3].<= o:p>

Added  "Sec. 7.= 5"

 

* The=
discussion of Extended Master Secret only applies to TLS 1.2 - please cl= arify
that, plus I suggest to reword this paragraph which I find hard to = parse.

re-worded

 

*
4.2: "the e= xtensions are chosen from the TLS handshake." - What does it mean
ex= actly, and how does an application even know which extensions were used atthe TLS layer? Reading further, we mention "ClientHello extensions.&q= uot; Maybe the
authenticator should also include a ClientHello message to= indicate supported
extensions. Assuming we can peek into ClientHello con= tradicts the hopeful "even
if it is possible to implement it at the = application layer" in Sec. 6.

 

This could be c= learer. Effectively, the Certificate message in the Authenticator needs=

to be constructed in a similar manne= r to how a Certificate message would be created

in a TLS handshake. Namely, it can only contain extensions t= hat were present in either

the c= lient hello or a preceding CertificateRequest.

 

You'r= e right that this makes an assumption that the party creating the Authentica= tor

has access to the TLS handsh= ake state. This implies that even if the Authenticator

<= div>

is created in the application space, an additional AP= I needs to be exposed to share

t= hat information.

 

* 4.2.1:
the first sentence of the section is incomplete.<= /p>

 

Fixed

 =

* Can I use TLS 1.3-specific
extensions (oid_filters) if I'm runn= ing on a TLS 1.2 connection? Is there a
situation where a certificate is = acceptable for TLS 1.3 connections but not for
TLS 1.2 connections?<= /o:p>

Yes TLS 1.3-specific extension= s are allowed, the CertificateRequest message is TLS 1.3-compatible.

 

* "using a valu= e derived from the connection secrets" - I
think we should recommend= a specific construction here to ensure people do it
securely.=

This was a suggestion from the Addi= tional Certificates use case (https://tools.ietf.or= g/html/draft-bishop-httpbis-http2-additional-certs-05). I'm not sure we = should get into the details here.

 

 

* 4.2.4: "a constant-time comparison" - why is= it actually
required, what is the threat? An attacker can do very little= because each
authenticator being sent is different.

As Ben noted, this was a safety note added du= ring review.

 

= * 5: please say explicitly which
messages are used in this case to constr= uct the authenticator.

 

Re-written. 

* 6.1: the
"MUST" is strange in a section that's only suppos= ed to be informative. Also,
the library may provide this extension (and p= ossibly others) without requiring
it as input.

How else do you propose wording the requirement tha= t this API fail if the connection doesn't support EAs?

<= div>

 

* 6.4: "The API MUST return a= failure if the
certificate_request_context of the authenticator was used= in a previously
validated authenticator." Are we requiring the libr= ary to keep previous
contexts for replay protection? If so, please make i= t explicit.

I think this = can be a SHOULD based on the burden replay protection places on the implemen= tation. 

 <= /p>

*  7.1: this is
changing TLS 1.3 by allowing this extension in Cert= Request! I think it's a
really bad idea. Better to hack special support = to existing libraries, allowing
this specific extension for this special = case, than to change the base
protocol. Otherwise, this document should U= PDATE 8446.

 

This is a good point and one that we s= truggled a bit with during design. We needed to allow SNI in the Certificate= Request message because it can be client-generated in this context. I'd be o= k with creating a different extension for this, but it's rather elegant to r= e-use it in this context. I'd like to hear some opinions from the working= group on this point

 <= o:p>

* 8: I think the
Security Considerations is the right place t= o talk about interaction between
this protocol and TLS 1.3 (or 1.2) reneg= otiation. Even if we simply RECOMMEND
not to do it. Or else explain the u= se cases where renegotiation is still useful
if there are any.=

 

I'm not sure this document should be prescriptive about use = cases. This doc is providing a new capability that may be leveraged at the a= pplication to replace the functionality of existing mechanisms, but I'm not = convinced the evaluation of the trade-offs of different mechanisms should be= contained in this document.

--B_3655714846_1726106478-- From nobody Mon Nov 4 05:10:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FC02120144 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 05:10:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mvUcgWvYvuOu; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 05:10:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98F3A1200FE; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 05:10:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050095.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Mon, 4 Nov 2019 05:10:20 -0800 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.33]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2w17s8avkx-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 04 Nov 2019 05:10:20 -0800 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) by usma1ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 08:10:19 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 08:10:19 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.005; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 08:10:19 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Stewart Bryant , ietf CC: "nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org" Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Thread-Topic: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Thread-Index: AQHVkllZtlByHExQzkS7nb/noDw4vqd7Ei2A///riQA= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 13:10:18 +0000 Message-ID: <6A7E9A4C-F8FF-4187-9F90-5134727CBD8B@akamai.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1e.0.191013 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.80.148] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <2033971687E83245A918843E2616BF0D@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2019-11-04_08:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=917 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1908290000 definitions=main-1911040130 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.95,1.0.8 definitions=2019-11-04_08:2019-11-04,2019-11-04 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1011 mlxlogscore=903 impostorscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1908290000 definitions=main-1911040130 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 13:10:24 -0000 PiAgICBBbSBJIGFsb25lIGluIGJlaW5nIGJvdGggc3VycHJpc2VkIGFuZCBkaXNhcHBvaW50ZWQg YXQgdGhlIHNtYWxsIG51bWJlciBvZiBjYW5kaWRhdGVzIHRoYXQgTm9tY29tIGhhcyBmb3IgYSBu dW1iZXIgb2YgdGhlIElFU0cgcG9zaXRpb25zPw0KICANCktub3dpbmcgaG93IG9mdGVuIGFuIGlu Y3VtYmVudCBoYXMgKk5PVCogYmVlbiBjaG9zZW4gd291bGQgaGVscCBhbnN3ZXIgdGhhdCBxdWVz dGlvbiwgYnV0IGFuZWNkb3RhbGx5IHdoeSBnbyB0aHJvdWdoIGFsbCB0aGF0IHdvcmsgaWYgdGhl cmUgYXJlIG92ZXJ3aGVsbWluZyBvZGRzIHRoYXQgeW91J3JlIGp1c3QgZ29pbmcgdG8gbG9zZT8N CiANCg0K From nobody Mon Nov 4 05:11:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 600F61201CE for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 05:11:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eMlO4812W7KL for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 05:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.hardakers.net (mail.hardakers.net [168.150.192.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD65C1200FE for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 05:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (245-196.icannmeeting.org [199.91.196.245]) by mail.hardakers.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 00B4922234; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 05:11:13 -0800 (PST) From: Wes Hardaker To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: IETF discussion list Subject: Re: NomCom status? References: Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 05:11:11 -0800 In-Reply-To: (Brian E. Carpenter's message of "Sun, 3 Nov 2019 09:51:25 +1300") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 13:11:17 -0000 Brian E Carpenter writes: > According to https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2019/: > > > Wednesday, October 16, 2019: Call for community feedback > > Did I miss this somehow? I don't see it in the ietf-announce archive. It seems to be there now: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf-announce/ With a date of Nov 03, though, so "late". -- Wes Hardaker USC/ISI From nobody Mon Nov 4 05:24:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C09D51207FF for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 05:24:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=krose.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k9nxyNvjWZ_i for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 05:24:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw1-xc2e.google.com (mail-yw1-xc2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA424120274 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 05:24:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw1-xc2e.google.com with SMTP id q140so1704613ywg.0 for ; Mon, 04 Nov 2019 05:24:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=krose.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+sVw/gLiN3PC0EAiIkMpoCVQAzIjSkUchgw57+boVDs=; b=Dg1q46hICpDab4gGtgI1rZqCeWRLlXbdI7Yu6yni8oZKUPUIOLj4745R5pctb5nfgM RlI0cUMvF+gdQgvcobjz5c6uhAFQ9C/uvose/AkKPEx7YSbzmlg/7VNB4P19yPbeAvtL uKkup4BHCsEBtMysnjpD/f3/TAYNlWZZmo+V8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+sVw/gLiN3PC0EAiIkMpoCVQAzIjSkUchgw57+boVDs=; b=ijp8gJmi2Ezu6C3gFyQ7MD62ANJPbHNIYEW+2MgPNsFVtqJTodnLsYI4QXtyYDlsvA /VN1tQNxWsxtIJugpd8k+qc+2DPBTdy26tSUV9GbadIyk/PHe0Pp38wUv6Vu5/0Znuyn 0yKB6rFpz5s9mpnZ55zUgXU09cyLo1XDPJ9j91jsrcgb0+BMHM3BHZR2v1PC3ztoWgh2 fniA3stnY90fVxs+LIplllfSOcFXeQ6Q+AWM8dVwmt5ZFDzK9SWJOaHCMC08e5zubYLc yY/yLrgUWSdEPj9qyyWTgIV5l6oobFyIZAEcfe7w1iqnFheOsGDLt7WMM7gCNRPmHx/I k8yw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUqils9g1dbDrsDN+z5/bFHUGxvfagknezZIFIp2H9uV1AvJqLU PxX7R5HzWYQdJhwsJFwrwiWZexo6b9ULGDeqsWZyGw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyJH33q7BKKddh4/oZAIc027UNGKSURs02Yfnvx1S9pEjJEMspvrZb+cSbfu65VYiL+37XV/lwFMuEfq/2EZIA= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:df0f:: with SMTP id i15mr20020067ywe.208.1572873893726; Mon, 04 Nov 2019 05:24:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> From: Kyle Rose Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 08:24:42 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback To: Stewart Bryant Cc: ietf , nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b662750596853de3" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 13:24:57 -0000 --000000000000b662750596853de3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 4:24 AM Stewart Bryant wrote: > Am I alone in being both surprised and disappointed at the small number of > candidates that Nomcom has for a number of the IESG positions? > Disappointed? No, I'm sure many IETFers feel the same way. Surprised? Maybe. I'm personally not surprised: being AD is basically a full-time job, and unless one is independently wealthy a candidate needs support from his/her employer for a 2-year (and often 4-year) commitment. Conservatively, that's a $600,000 investment for a 2-year term, and you don't even get your logo in the credits for the trouble. It's hard to make the business case for that. --000000000000b662750596853de3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 4:24 AM Stewa= rt Bryant <stewart.bryant@gm= ail.com> wrote:
Am I alone in being both surprised = and disappointed at the small number of candidates that Nomcom has for a nu= mber of the IESG positions?

Disapp= ointed? No, I'm sure many IETFers feel the same way.

Surprised? Maybe. I'm personally not surprised: being AD is basi= cally a full-time job, and unless one is independently wealthy a candidate = needs support from his/her employer for a 2-year (and often 4-year) commitm= ent. Conservatively, that's a $600,000 investment for a 2-year term, an= d you don't even get your logo in the credits for the trouble. It's= hard to make the business case for that.

--000000000000b662750596853de3-- From nobody Mon Nov 4 05:43:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C38DF1200FA for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 05:43:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nohats.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9Cfzvd5hzG9B; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 05:43:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.nohats.ca (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:2a03:6000:1004:1::68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 076CA120099; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 05:43:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 476DXl1qq1zFf5; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 14:43:51 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nohats.ca; s=default; t=1572875031; bh=fV413K2Dhv4I8Fjr7RLD2cAEtHPtBOFMkbDA+XcpwN8=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=kkefICNabdvunHuqg3HG4xkPYCvACG05Z2q5rZNXEVzjdb240ADZbs53rPv2mgVoZ +ADBiCLC+R7P9/XJDITcssqJVqz4a7PHjYNkoO7MdyHzik6qj1wGPpmGKWSwIBX113 IMjN43UrLdSlhrK7ejAxAnofuvtOX+WszaAncA1Y= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mx.nohats.ca Received: from mx.nohats.ca ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mfFE9nUgymmY; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 14:43:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from bofh.nohats.ca (bofh.nohats.ca [76.10.157.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 14:43:49 +0100 (CET) Received: by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F24926007C4D; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 08:43:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF8123D131; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 08:43:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 08:43:47 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Wouters To: Kyle Rose cc: nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org, ietf Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 13:43:57 -0000 On Mon, 4 Nov 2019, Kyle Rose wrote: > Surprised? Maybe. I'm personally not surprised: being AD is basically a full-time job, and unless one is > independently wealthy a candidate needs support from his/her employer for a 2-year (and often 4-year) commitment. > Conservatively, that's a $600,000 investment for a 2-year term, and you don't even get your logo in the credits > for the trouble. It's hard to make the business case for that. This is indeed the core of the problem. And perhaps we need to think about how it can be addressed in other ways. Paul From nobody Mon Nov 4 07:21:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5285F120A21 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 07:21:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.996 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.996 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vmy9TLWtkHfC; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 07:21:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x236.google.com (mail-oi1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA189120A1A; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 07:21:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x236.google.com with SMTP id i185so14387244oif.9; Mon, 04 Nov 2019 07:21:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=in/5pcICEcqODRsYQ7hhZE3HO8wRuqEvBIMypYJkpGk=; b=YGWXRZcVZKrkFXYIPTuCdRK6CLSx40H3pmRDT+kHUyVh5w7pzdzTA0HB4VC39OmINe v3ATNH6etYduLFWke/zTOi/MgYlpx6MkH1monTjRLt8bsbvNFb+2tnS4PITlbjXhkC4B S/2kZHGktvuVI7vlGeITmBtX8rCsLkm8TeyqdgjuMoIghSRPKbmzS8L73JjSUvkFa3K4 K0/+NxHXlk9LeIc7B0XcB/GlmLI+yP3rpTmYyu+BSAeLelWC5EmfnmpxgPiIVJWqNvac fqZ7LkW0XzvASeTsEmy+XmLBEQH1vNRjTh/Z8O4SPPMkCzP34VOD8FSrJ5X+OThMUZw7 AzlA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=in/5pcICEcqODRsYQ7hhZE3HO8wRuqEvBIMypYJkpGk=; b=e4pLbx41Wj9MGaLxdMyhjqVcEn8M71Z4X3+12VrCZixCWbugwL/bxUIrevag/xuUk3 LGtCLzHd2+ZXO7UUxwR2VHFqX4hLlsH4L2xl7i+Ld57PS+bTZMKPcTa1NDy16bXJgxyQ mkLVOFwYw2iFUlo3XT/XCrqcGwXApAubKfLapG5CDeyQPWHeDrL3q62WGHqzf6LnVGT5 dR8IeSsLB/XB43OrJaHlkdbRBBQy/XygOF1HPeSk6+srxQ4LKG+jiwHquclu+Q8kho9h BcTSD0DEdVt6+jQnP50TGwio8GR6gks0qqvBHb6E2LYX3p0nWUPicIxjw99n3Clc19Z/ s2zA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUZx8kickFSD/fyC8t/v5Ei5VWkWCBiTrTnQqTUmNL+qNTA0zKq Sr/oDRmyth9afL9VuwTmsdwapTrJLE2wNbBTxpQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwJ4OlW/dKh6etkMcFTBdyWdMaJqjJp36BdBXIYwhbg3M+ndNmqbXJUfD/UM4MklRBLbe7VZk5UD8YbtGaYkS0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:ab1:: with SMTP id r17mr1591709oij.111.1572880884003; Mon, 04 Nov 2019 07:21:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:20:48 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback To: Paul Wouters Cc: Kyle Rose , nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org, ietf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005d7815059686deaf" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 15:21:27 -0000 --0000000000005d7815059686deaf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 8:44 AM Paul Wouters wrote: > On Mon, 4 Nov 2019, Kyle Rose wrote: > > > Surprised? Maybe. I'm personally not surprised: being AD is basically a > full-time job, and unless one is > > independently wealthy a candidate needs support from his/her employer > for a 2-year (and often 4-year) commitment. > > Conservatively, that's a $600,000 investment for a 2-year term, and you > don't even get your logo in the credits > > for the trouble. It's hard to make the business case for that. > > This is indeed the core of the problem. And perhaps we need to think > about how it can be addressed in other ways. > > For years we've had a good list for Security, so I am very disappointed to see no one up except the incumbent. I do see value in going through the process even if you are not selected so that the NomCom has a choice and if anything were to happen to either incumbent (new position that didn't support them, lottery, etc.), there would be a place to start. It's up to the incumbents to invite others to put their names int he hat and that works quite well. I did nominate a few people when I saw there was no one there, but the incumbents for all positions really should be reaching out individually and discussing the pro/cons, offering to talk to management, etc. In terms of benefits, one is having the opportunity to see the work across the IETF. I found this quite helpful to be able to take a step back and think about the work happening across areas and what the impact of that would be collectively. It's a really interesting exercise and could be beneficial to your organization when you step back into your role with this expanded view and knowledge. I'm almost done writing a book from these observations. Benoit also published just after stepping down and it helped him get promoted to the next level in Cisco as he clearly demonstrated technical leadership across industry in one of his areas of expertise. Alia moved on to a new type of role for her as she gained management experience and it provided an opportunity to move in a new direction. There are benefits to the individual and to the organization, but you have to think about what that might be and how you will go about it. This is helpful when justifying the time that will be spent in the position. Best regards, Kathleen Paul > > -- Best regards, Kathleen --0000000000005d7815059686deaf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 8:44 AM Paul W= outers <paul@nohats.ca> wrote:<= br>
On Mon, 4 Nov 20= 19, Kyle Rose wrote:

> Surprised? Maybe. I'm personally not surprised: being AD is basica= lly a full-time job, and unless one is
> independently wealthy a candidate needs support from his/her employer = for a 2-year (and often 4-year) commitment.
> Conservatively, that's a $600,000 investment for a 2-year term, an= d you don't even get your logo in the credits
> for the trouble. It's hard to make the business case for that.

This is indeed the core of the problem. And perhaps we need to think
about how it can be addressed in other ways.


For years we've had a good list fo= r Security, so I am very disappointed to see no one up except the incumbent= .=C2=A0 I do see value in going through the process even if you are not sel= ected so that the NomCom has a choice and if anything were to=C2=A0happen t= o either incumbent=C2=A0(new position that didn't support them, lottery= , etc.), there would be a place to start.=C2=A0 It's up to the incumben= ts to invite others to put their names int he hat and that works quite well= .=C2=A0 I did nominate a few people when I saw there was no one there, but = the incumbents for all positions really should be reaching out individually= and discussing the pro/cons, offering to talk to management, etc.

In terms of benefits, one is having the opportunity to see= the work across the IETF.=C2=A0 I found this quite helpful to be able to t= ake a step back and think about the work happening across areas and what th= e impact of that would be collectively.=C2=A0 It's a really interesting= exercise and could be beneficial to your organization when you step back i= nto your role with this expanded view and knowledge.=C2=A0 I'm almost d= one writing a book from these observations.=C2=A0 Benoit also published jus= t after stepping down and it helped him get promoted to the next level in C= isco as he clearly demonstrated technical leadership across industry in one= of his areas of expertise.=C2=A0 Alia moved on to a new type of role for h= er as she gained management experience and it provided an opportunity to mo= ve in a new direction.=C2=A0 There are benefits to the individual and to th= e organization, but you have to think about what that might be and how you = will go about it.=C2=A0 This is helpful when justifying the time that will = be spent in the position.

Best regards,
= Kathleen



Paul



--

Best regards,
Kathleen
--0000000000005d7815059686deaf-- From nobody Mon Nov 4 07:27:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAE84120A14; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 07:27:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Secretariat To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: recentattendees@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, 106all@ietf.org Subject: IETF 106 Standard Registration Deadline and Internet Draft Submission Cut-off Today! 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After November 4th at UTC 23:59 you will be required to re-enter your data and the registration fee will be $1,000 USD. Internet Draft Deadline: Internet Draft submission cut-off (for all drafts, including -00) is today, Monday, November 4th by UTC 23:59. Please feel free to upload drafts using the upload submissions tool found below: https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/ If you have any questions or need assistance, please do not hesitate to contact: ietf-registrar@ietf.org From nobody Mon Nov 4 08:44:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 136F8120AF1; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 08:43:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=UkCVQ318; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=EUDdQtLu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZtCKbyCQauJS; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 08:43:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8E4B1201CE; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 08:43:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C2D721F48; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:43:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 04 Nov 2019 11:43:49 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject :message-id:date:to; s=fm1; bh=sVprQUPN/X9KJ9xRG49oA/brAJQ8ZfNgY 60gdWUjOBY=; b=UkCVQ318bsxdFHvy2vqdQFvdSkkLufSgVtRh+Y8axf3CsSx7Y VXK2/XmsMjbDTqZhVe2nog6meenHRGWvfXOAmSRzwovLMxQbDIdDHUd1A55bTMHj uMByLUKL46/ut4dKHYHbDxcWRnOb8FWxhwiWLDhpngvWL9GLQ8D0PaSDn8vwa8Gz CSTHMHlJpe2pIaWtpyTlKs7cd3GDcd1H4QZdsq5vsHVBFv9UOk22wRznsWUOcHPM ugtJenA01OC9K4WTj1+2+hS0CKwL9dCAya/3XwWzshtfKi0v2KHYHJ5aNUNJ4YeG 7NEsriDerzGuPU4KppeaRNPqsF9n98PdYrBtQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=sVprQU PN/X9KJ9xRG49oA/brAJQ8ZfNgY60gdWUjOBY=; b=EUDdQtLulNQW9v/zbgxbOL a3A2QhWgmMee6vC2hSYqVknEGrToYv0cJLHlApC2qP6heMUSDfUSV6nLhCLkYLpW MsKwrkXVLKjWv+fV4ZdzjFE53JPJAnN1NKlTFyQqK3IjcnaJc7ZCghqVCDQ1UL4i 2fmZrx6CYeMXkRU2KoqUpo0yHwNpNt6fCLILa0B0dTMA3ZvGT4WZ0p15RqTlVgYg 1Oc9VtFqzoVKVxlOAdEn6+uUhGSPbvT9A+SIwTaPU2U1qAwoMkBH7LZS7utJmT7G 8mIT1xy7IyB8lCJtvBYD+kmkoc6r5nICg+FUX9hWrpWJsMGKjiH9owQwjsReVkYQ == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedruddufedgleegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhephfgtgfgguffkfffvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomheptehlihhsshgr ucevohhophgvrhcuoegrlhhishhsrgestghoohhpvghrfidrihhnqeenucffohhmrghinh epihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecukfhppedujeefrdefkedruddujedrledtnecurfgrrhgrmhep mhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegrlhhishhsrgestghoohhpvghrfidrihhnnecuvehluhhsthgvrh fuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from rtp-alcoop-nitro3.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.90]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 5467C80066; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:43:48 -0500 (EST) From: Alissa Cooper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Document shepherd write-ups updated Message-Id: Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:43:47 -0500 To: IETF WG Chairs , IETF discussion list X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 16:44:02 -0000 Hi all, The document shepherd write-ups available at = https://ietf.org/chairs/document-writeups/ have been updated to include = mentions of YANG modules and YANG Doctor reviews in the question = prompts. The Q&A-style write-ups also have a new question #20 about YANG = module validation. If you have any questions about the write-ups, feel = free to email the IESG at iesg@ietf.org. 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Mon, 4 Nov 2019 12:22:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SL4f8sV4NvDa for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 12:22:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5FC71208F6 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 12:22:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iRis7-0005a9-V2; Mon, 04 Nov 2019 20:22:44 +0000 Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 12:22:43 -0800 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: IETF Rinse Repeat Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback In-Reply-To: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.2 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 20:22:48 -0000 > I wonder what people think would break if we moved to 5 AD's per area, > and they could divide the WG's and IESG concalls amongst themselves? and that might free up one of them to write more process docs about all this. perhaps it is not a problem of technical engineering load, but a problem of bureaucratic, process, and politics load. randy From nobody Mon Nov 4 13:08:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44ACD12007C for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 13:08:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Mon, 04 Nov 2019 13:08:49 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback From: Yoav Nir In-Reply-To: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 23:08:47 +0200 Cc: "Livingood, Jason" , Paul Wouters , Kyle Rose , "nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org" , ietf Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9D0E5D44-552D-4F07-A53E-AFC4B9B733E2@gmail.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> To: Rich Salz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3601.0.10) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 21:08:54 -0000 > On 4 Nov 2019, at 21:54, Salz, Rich wrote: >=20 > I wonder what people think would break if we moved to 5 AD's per area, = and they could divide the WG's and IESG concalls amongst themselves? >=20 Five? We barely manage to get two. Where will we find five? This WG chair gig that you and I do? We can sell it to our respective = employers as something we do in our spare time. An AD=E2=80=99s job? = Not so much. Yes, having five of them would mean that each supervises 1-2 working = groups. It might make scheduling sessions in a meeting a bit easier. But = the ADs will still have to attend all three meetings plus the retrieat, = and most of them are still going to be reading every draft. I can see = this cutting the AD job down to 25 hours a week, maybe even 20. But = that=E2=80=99s still a sizeable chunk of time, and it makes you not = available for crunch time for your employer.=20 It might get Kyle=E2=80=99s $600,000 down to $400,000. A decent chunk = of change, and now you want 30 such chunks rather than 14. =20 I don=E2=80=99t think adding more management is the solution. From nobody Mon Nov 4 13:12:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10EDB12007C for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 13:12:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.996 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.996 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8VCy5U8VW9x2; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 13:12:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x22c.google.com (mail-oi1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 321CC120052; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 13:12:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id n16so15511011oig.2; Mon, 04 Nov 2019 13:12:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5GPxn+0MWdR5M7/056w2kXRbcAaRkdB+/GJlnUspCnc=; b=Sf6p3z6dGa8NWKqjQalwUITZ4soLr07x6V27tnTnk9VqMBwswv6dEu4Z/g1i0skF/s P4p8LJKBJtTgX1X9Ev0zd+kuOjiG1ud9T3eqNwDAYmovlnXvu3T2jNjiUuPg9Ejd68Rf 6eZCrD/FqqJKuIza1Gv4IBtm4GeYLRkq6EiDT+RGWI0k1iO8X97bRZo6QBF0sYDT1uHj I7QS6yjpHxiZizPks8OFEOMEBKnEZmFQBvKOvY7wcL5S5T8ob8WLFTpW4Ra9j0EDI7go fS4jCeW6TFjO7rgPgWMPkEeAxDjxVNGrLdBzgM/EMnI9y0aD83cvvFp2GsIbtOGBPd+0 rR3w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5GPxn+0MWdR5M7/056w2kXRbcAaRkdB+/GJlnUspCnc=; b=fhneFkkLlFBm05lQxN9c1ZDu7StuVSHuCNW6enMfk+qkRdImYTI3Q6VqRENPTf3Wf8 hyjf/FbnkhIOTd3Z6zMjoTNrsPPVJdJiCDcrVFbcVm6kBK72WTf54Ex7cxKtspeM6wWY Ms4qN73QEUgeJozukj4pEY5bpQogEWdYK1SRNNa88w7fl985Q6Dl2DirUN/kqdmlzFl/ HvVvozC7xzW6+5wxF/QWJ9l5Ljauh73UjOa6irmA/JfkFDzbhSdbIfpTNcCMqsCpIuok HMaZgd6zCC2E7QlZ8C8a79TQN81TBPJbDaRxK/mrRdH6sehbZOPTJRAjF1MRDcerEecc 009w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXvMsDHpdYXGz+1aNKh8ITwjstTYJJIKdnxOIxBxUEPgcI+K0+5 W70/kuvxmPZopHLx+bP+HcV5t05nYvRug4yXukc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxARPxg8Xlh6wNxeqU2ToAvSISAmRAZB7TRkmbUwpoKlL3FSjLc69JxIWEZQAEhNqwlaqfpj2XUGArlNVvPV1M= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:498:: with SMTP id z24mr921138oid.114.1572901958438; Mon, 04 Nov 2019 13:12:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <9D0E5D44-552D-4F07-A53E-AFC4B9B733E2@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9D0E5D44-552D-4F07-A53E-AFC4B9B733E2@gmail.com> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 16:12:02 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback To: Yoav Nir Cc: Rich Salz , "nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org" , Paul Wouters , ietf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007fd48205968bc6d9" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 21:12:41 -0000 --0000000000007fd48205968bc6d9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 4:09 PM Yoav Nir wrote: > > > > On 4 Nov 2019, at 21:54, Salz, Rich wrote: > > > > I wonder what people think would break if we moved to 5 AD's per area, > and they could divide the WG's and IESG concalls amongst themselves? > > > > Five? We barely manage to get two. Where will we find five? > > This WG chair gig that you and I do? We can sell it to our respective > employers as something we do in our spare time. An AD=E2=80=99s job? No= t so much. > > Yes, having five of them would mean that each supervises 1-2 working > groups. It might make scheduling sessions in a meeting a bit easier. But > the ADs will still have to attend all three meetings plus the retrieat, a= nd > most of them are still going to be reading every draft. I can see this > cutting the AD job down to 25 hours a week, maybe even 20. But that=E2=80= =99s still > a sizeable chunk of time, and it makes you not available for crunch time > for your employer. > > It might get Kyle=E2=80=99s $600,000 down to $400,000. A decent chunk of= change, > and now you want 30 such chunks rather than 14. > > I don=E2=80=99t think adding more management is the solution. > Right and then you have to coordinate among them all, which is time consuming. I, and others are willing to help talk to management to justify the role and time spent. I think there's a pretty compelling argument. Best regards, Kathleen --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --0000000000007fd48205968bc6d9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 4:09 PM Yoav N= ir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com> w= rote:


> On 4 Nov 2019, at 21:54, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:
>
> I wonder what people think would break if we moved to 5 AD's per a= rea, and they could divide the WG's and IESG concalls amongst themselve= s?
>

Five?=C2=A0 We barely manage to get two.=C2=A0 Where will we find five?

This WG chair gig that you and I do?=C2=A0 We can sell it to our respective= employers as something we do in our spare time.=C2=A0 An AD=E2=80=99s job?= =C2=A0 Not so much.

Yes, having five of them would mean that each supervises 1-2 working groups= . It might make scheduling sessions in a meeting a bit easier. But the ADs = will still have to attend all three meetings plus the retrieat, and most of= them are still going to be reading every draft.=C2=A0 I can see this cutti= ng the AD job down to 25 hours a week, maybe even 20. But that=E2=80=99s st= ill a sizeable chunk of time, and it makes you not available for crunch tim= e for your employer.

It might get Kyle=E2=80=99s $600,000 down to $400,000.=C2=A0 A decent chunk= of change, and now you want 30 such chunks rather than 14.=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t think adding more management is the solution.

Right and then you have to coordinate among them all= , which is time consuming.

I, and others are willi= ng to help talk to management to justify the role and time spent.=C2=A0 I t= hink there's a pretty compelling argument.=C2=A0=C2=A0
=
Best regards,
Kathleen

--

Best = regards,
Kathleen
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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="PoMBWkZbwHdwfxsexhUhESD22yvhYw6yb" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 21:25:31 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --PoMBWkZbwHdwfxsexhUhESD22yvhYw6yb Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="hy6vLzIiKROMlfePIPDfQrckmJcAZHmfE"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "Salz, Rich" , "Livingood, Jason" , Paul Wouters , Kyle Rose Cc: "nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org" , ietf Message-ID: <7206015e-36e4-f10a-c75e-e42855aa0a4e@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> --hy6vLzIiKROMlfePIPDfQrckmJcAZHmfE Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------26051F66B45DD569C40ED017" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------26051F66B45DD569C40ED017 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 04/11/2019 19:54, Salz, Rich wrote: > I wonder what people think would break if we moved to 5 AD's per > area, and they could divide the WG's and IESG concalls amongst > themselves? >=20 I think that's essentially up to the IESG to deal with, it's not really that easy to do from "outside" because the current IESG will have to be the ones to do the work for any change. (And it'll be a lot of work is my bet.) FWIW, when I was on the IESG I tried arguing for there to be only ~7 ADs total following the logic that that'd force the IESG to delegate more. Despite trying, we never found a practical way to get there though. 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[130.216.38.14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s202sm18988649pfs.24.2019.11.04.13.29.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 04 Nov 2019 13:29:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback To: "Salz, Rich" , "Livingood, Jason" , Paul Wouters , Kyle Rose Cc: "nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org" , ietf References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 10:29:13 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 21:29:22 -0000 On 05-Nov-19 08:54, Salz, Rich wrote: > I wonder what people think would break if we moved to 5 AD's per area, and they could divide the WG's and IESG concalls amongst themselves? Wouldn't work. An IESG of that size would be impossible to run like the current IESG, which is already too big to be cohesive. It would become more like a parliament and even less like a steering group. If we want the IESG job to be more reasonably sized, we have to take work away from the ADs. As far as I can see, that means taking away their duty of acting as final reviewers. I don't want to name names because I don't think the ADs are to be blamed individually, but some of them spend *enormous* effort on detailed reviews. Either we have to trust the WGs more, or we have to trust the various review teams more, and allow the IESG to steer, which its name implies is its main job. And sign off on drafts that are good enough, rather than seeking perfection. This is hardly a new discussion, but we just let it drift each year, after the NomCom season is over. 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Mon, 04 Nov 2019 21:33:03 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id xA4LWNvo031350; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 16:33:02 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.33]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2w154wt9be-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 04 Nov 2019 16:33:02 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 16:33:01 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.005; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 16:33:01 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Brian E Carpenter , "Livingood, Jason" , Paul Wouters , Kyle Rose CC: "nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org" , ietf Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Thread-Topic: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Thread-Index: AQHVkllZtlByHExQzkS7nb/noDw4vqd7Ei2AgABDYACAAAVVgIAAZu0A//+s7wCAAG4vgP//rT6A Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 21:33:01 +0000 Message-ID: <0053C5D9-E4D7-4BE0-9B73-3B7FC25561FB@akamai.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1e.0.191013 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.37.132] Content-Type: text/plain; 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Mon, 4 Nov 2019 21:39:36 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HXotr6BPH1OI; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 21:39:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [172.17.88.112] (211-72-213-201.HINET-IP.hinet.net [211.72.213.201]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1485EBE2F; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 21:39:31 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1572903574; bh=5cfssOreDqm/LRiGm4MEMd8JKrDy/sG79FqZ99icbjk=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=C4VTdVpgUlPyP4fADZnvvERA9NU6GqnVWGoGngcylLIOhO1BURu4t7H1Qv6ejm+qy AgOoK/gGIVB6uAxzUumwG3RaXijt+CT0QdblZWlMFo4OWkDb95DrWHP4vPE2jCqRur aGOZ9QTDEY0qp+zWXrabWfQvHRDTnE2XUXlnHLq8= Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback To: "Salz, Rich" , Brian E Carpenter , "Livingood, Jason" , Paul Wouters , Kyle Rose Cc: "nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org" , ietf References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <0053C5D9-E4D7-4BE0-9B73-3B7FC25561FB@akamai.com> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0053C5D9-E4D7-4BE0-9B73-3B7FC25561FB@akamai.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="DpadTYDAzug1xiO5xKIIuq62qw3Zldr3m" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 21:39:45 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --DpadTYDAzug1xiO5xKIIuq62qw3Zldr3m Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="rdI799OGLKKk2lyvFqxqNS3uRl3EbaU7V"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "Salz, Rich" , Brian E Carpenter , "Livingood, Jason" , Paul Wouters , Kyle Rose Cc: "nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org" , ietf Message-ID: Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <0053C5D9-E4D7-4BE0-9B73-3B7FC25561FB@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <0053C5D9-E4D7-4BE0-9B73-3B7FC25561FB@akamai.com> --rdI799OGLKKk2lyvFqxqNS3uRl3EbaU7V Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E03694A30435CCFE68BCD643" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E03694A30435CCFE68BCD643 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 04/11/2019 21:33, Salz, Rich wrote: > So something more lasting, like an IAB program? YAKOBE? Heh:-) To be clear: No, restructuring the IESG is so very definitely not the IAB's job. 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[130.216.38.14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y4sm1050988pgy.27.2019.11.04.14.21.45 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 04 Nov 2019 14:21:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback To: Stephen Farrell , "Salz, Rich" , "Livingood, Jason" , Paul Wouters , Kyle Rose Cc: "nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org" , ietf References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <0053C5D9-E4D7-4BE0-9B73-3B7FC25561FB@akamai.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:21:42 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 22:21:55 -0000 On 05-Nov-19 10:39, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 04/11/2019 21:33, Salz, Rich wrote: >> So something more lasting, like an IAB program? YAKOBE? > > Heh:-) > > To be clear: No, restructuring the IESG is so very > definitely not the IAB's job. A draft in front of gendispatch might be the correct approach, if there are any specific proposals. Although, reading https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-6.1.2, it's not clear to me that any process changes are needed, since nowhere is it specified that IESG members should perform detailed technical reviews themselves. As far as I can see, they could stop doing that tomorrow without breaking any process rules, and choose to rely entirely on the various review teams. Brian From nobody Mon Nov 4 14:56:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F1631208A6 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 14:56:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=krose.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZpDlMyqrTCuM for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 14:56:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20A211208DF for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 14:56:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com with SMTP id b2so8581607ybr.8 for ; Mon, 04 Nov 2019 14:56:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=krose.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nQkl4u6L+s/u9980dPzKNIz8kSCOTPkbsReEEZ9Du6g=; b=mfgHW+GrMc3su+uegbWcRgkXfeq8Rd7whQtr2vgohiaF2SvpucUIatX2iGjxPKibRS BwO7d65mflRk52r4Jm/I75VOph4fyc7LQ9AXtYl7r0to+e+MptHWFf7zXzOAJtOtcyHk ixVTL57sjEI5v9yNdEUhZkzp88H4UVPJklxrI= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nQkl4u6L+s/u9980dPzKNIz8kSCOTPkbsReEEZ9Du6g=; b=ewbEv4gm+JSO9Z6qu8Cyd9fYHdGUtXvOBdYW8sHWcsuwGZYgWrm0gofyQmAJa6rVT5 zxrBg6whP3gAtha6Ymkl99kQsSLSdNdtxBj00gjNFqQBHXfK5epWLhO8Pl70k8YYNVnh U6QEmSF2fSfd6J6pnbt3ntC/BcZF15b9pWvlbBC6oPE/iuuIpZJxVmHk21ikOsmmR6HC MrErwM2jPMHEx3a612i9DhiuGOb01LJqGx6Dz4Sem3u0f7yp0YbkoZx6i0CeaLA9PIXP Iz2/KKl7WZEvHeTjXlbion4nmLBVgla/9UUuv90zWS8ErsTbO60xfg7+DSpfvTY5vf+1 KswQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVTMrnKie34rOevvo35u1oj8kktpki9ZpsyLxp2ellXWZTnsZd0 PYVE7l214rC3NNdcwLwKUE+jyTt531vcAo2QoB2HxQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyyhwbDX4mZzjOhZ+ZpOCSsQw5SBgnACjg9wbmRe+DK9I2Q/eZ1T2BeVZkJSYdOFULb1Oss8Vrj4758RkPhj8M= X-Received: by 2002:a25:d14f:: with SMTP id i76mr11429150ybg.247.1572908167882; Mon, 04 Nov 2019 14:56:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> From: Kyle Rose Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 17:55:56 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "Livingood, Jason" , Paul Wouters , "nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org" , ietf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009c80c305968d3845" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 22:56:19 -0000 --0000000000009c80c305968d3845 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 4:29 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > If we want the IESG job to be more reasonably sized, we have to take work > away from the ADs. As far as I can see, that means taking away their duty > of acting as final reviewers. I don't want to name names because I don't > think the ADs are to be blamed individually, but some of them spend > *enormous* effort on detailed reviews. Either we have to trust the WGs > more, or we have to trust the various review teams more, and allow the IESG > to steer, which its name implies is its main job. And sign off on drafts > that are good enough, rather than seeking perfection. > Agreed, and with Stephen's advocacy of delegation as a path forward. But to get there, the IETF (and the folks with dots, in particular) need to become more comfortable with the idea of decentralizing authority to a greater degree than they have been used to: that means empowering---and trusting, and training, and reviewing the output of---the directorates to a greater extent than happens today. The buck may still stop with the ADs, but they should be willing and able to choose to delegate to a greater degree, preserving their time and brain cycles for the truly critical stuff that they either seek out or that is escalated to them. We may also want to take a serious look at re-empowering the IAB's historical role in architectural oversight, with an appropriate set of checks and balances to prevent a recurrence of the kerfuffle that resulted in the current structure. Kyle --0000000000009c80c305968d3845 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 4:29 PM Brian E Ca= rpenter <brian.e.carpente= r@gmail.com> wrote:
If we want the IESG job to be more re= asonably sized, we have to take work away from the ADs. As far as I can see= , that means taking away their duty of acting as final reviewers. I don'= ;t want to name names because I don't think the ADs are to be blamed in= dividually, but some of them spend *enormous* effort on detailed reviews. E= ither we have to trust the WGs more, or we have to trust the various review= teams more, and allow the IESG to steer, which its name implies is its mai= n job. And sign off on drafts that are good enough, rather than seeking per= fection.

Agreed, and with Stephen's advocacy of= delegation as a path forward. But to get there, the IETF (and the folks wi= th dots, in particular) need to become more comfortable with the idea of de= centralizing authority to a greater degree than they have been used to: tha= t means empowering---and trusting, and training, and reviewing the output o= f---the directorates to a greater extent than happens today. The buck may s= till stop with the ADs, but they should be willing and able to choose to de= legate to a greater degree, preserving their time and brain cycles for the = truly critical stuff that they either seek out or that is escalated to them= .

We may also want to take a serious look at re-em= powering the IAB's historical role in architectural oversight, with an = appropriate set of checks and balances to prevent a recurrence of the kerfu= ffle that resulted in the current structure.

K= yle
--0000000000009c80c305968d3845-- From nobody Mon Nov 4 15:17:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0B2912091B for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 15:17:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MWD4tm7g7bos for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 15:17:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7CE11207FB for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 15:17:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84513653; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 18:17:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 04 Nov 2019 18:17:09 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Bgjjl6Z9f7ikPtoirDNQ3vcoZVNZ2g9lmz5FWJLTL 98=; b=oC8VXI4ylBiWophJlmq3U5IT32J0RbEjPt3mkbU3Hta7g7mDIb47kXYdA YySgT6ITx7/jS1feA70L23hnfWlDVtIGugO1UFptFhiToAuvAOK/yRBqlO4ele65 hiqsKqSO8C67hzbFQqWLCf/IBcFpqXEdc1bHwemEXLCPL4aV2+27CoMd3UpNDRRu kxLgACFbeeRrTxqX/+UE4Bcy7NModKSHCKiXznViJmcptVDdukKB1NppxrXl3nAA lrMQZyoAPcI1Ll7UFfeMJfdUvMBYn3kzVpwz8MoZR6Poc89nw3rKSJlCAaqlcDIR Qs9+cRQRIFBFnuvzzis3hRXDL0wIQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedruddugedgtdekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrud ehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghr vghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id F282C80059; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 18:17:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <3bbc73cc-6830-fa90-5d39-bdee12b0b6c1@network-heretics.com> Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 18:17:06 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 23:17:12 -0000 On 11/4/19 2:54 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: > I wonder what people think would break if we moved to 5 AD's per area, and they could divide the WG's and IESG concalls amongst themselves? I suspect it would mean that there'd be more ADs looking for nits to pick in order to delay documents. Note: I DO NOT think that ADs see their purpose in picking nits or delaying documents.   But I do think there's a tendency for people in any position to, perhaps subconsciously, try to "prove their worth", and I suspect that having a lot more ADs would create perverse incentives. ADs do tend to be overloaded.   Sometimes, IMO, it's because there is a lack of political will (and/or community support) to push back against new WGs that lack the energy or the clue to be doing what they propose to do.    Sometimes, IMO, it's because IETF has a longstanding Bad Habit of trying to mask tussles by spinning up lots of narrowly focused WGs with non-overlapping scope. But mostly, IMO, ADs are overloaded because we're trying to use volunteers to do what should be paid positions with limited terms. Keith From nobody Mon Nov 4 15:38:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4D7B120131 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 15:38:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VS4269g3Xd-3 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 15:38:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x22d.google.com (mail-oi1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECBD9120090 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 15:38:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id l20so3750258oie.10 for ; Mon, 04 Nov 2019 15:38:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PvILYyE2YDzSegFO04Njx80biNzRswS42RTfQj5cPl8=; b=heNWAsogPmLC185frYlv78k4EsPoGY8WGGcFu54R6duaTFv6cCFZBVPuFJ4NuNmDcL kvU/AY8TZfw4xmztxm32lV5sZeOUKRb4kwW3XoZRR52Mg10YLy8go44zQROr+PiAVbiX d+ANb6Tl2FBfjTe1ydlxJpQElXaXQE/CS7ZakSKCeNxwc61Ybgneu3hElSReF1tHIoPf XWvJkltJCBAaLT0+R+IUbR0oft2bJAcdhM3oqhkNd6USRl/8UWq77zn4GJlx4yX0KGEp X4c/jB4Aln8IXvPNAUNj6piDrBtYvTVcGGyPrnQWLfmkxpmF3zbVebMLGB9YF2Raexc2 t7qw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PvILYyE2YDzSegFO04Njx80biNzRswS42RTfQj5cPl8=; b=gSGbZBudcmV8swIpqDyqBodxqccnipj9anM9QdWB0jC1ptedR6nu+EIdFXZVxWoYW7 QNzn2rCma1r5r2k1oF3uRFg7bi6qriAYicKFFmkJ/F64r7Lx3edi+q7S8aXQtR5fx5Lm UF1+XF6z+/OdCvo5S464GBo0UM7VjWrlxI0XUsbozRHVGlsNnMxPJuahpmR2vtu0C0ve xAa67JYcJOQD54CcIwDHiukuBKfulsvJvexwu2kP8ehs8D5l/f0yqbYpcWZyD7i1nv5u yNGN56axx9b+nihy0Ql8aGM3lM9UPpC2dGC8TPjPZhMmCO2+wCW5F6nSWIsHtomkd/DG 8sRQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWUOp2o9x1QGAstubUB9bXu5xoH9k3p/3cV5ZO/iYks42aaymHe LGYwwS1+frsh0MJbjrVM0SbGMhcsPUU30rAoh8E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwwxCu5j+jbI/GK0i+7Y+v11qlx4tuXUgpTaDntrNAbhIHQ2nGm8/fJIK2fcbEJ2d9gzOGIf9v333syVnQkACA= X-Received: by 2002:aca:484e:: with SMTP id v75mr1416026oia.6.1572910690248; Mon, 04 Nov 2019 15:38:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <3bbc73cc-6830-fa90-5d39-bdee12b0b6c1@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: <3bbc73cc-6830-fa90-5d39-bdee12b0b6c1@network-heretics.com> From: Tim Wicinski Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 18:37:59 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback To: Keith Moore Cc: IETF Rinse Repeat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f4ab7905968dceac" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 23:38:13 -0000 --000000000000f4ab7905968dceac Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" A Working Group chair role also have very tangible results to employers. They see the work we help shepherd and it feels their corporate hearts with warmth. I also like chairing working groups - the interactions are much more personable and enjoyable. I like to think I am OK at it. But I also like working and I can move in and out. An AD job looks and feels like middle management. I feel I would do a horrible job at it. I've always been lucky to have great ADs but I feel my role is to make their jobs easier however possible. Tim On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 6:17 PM Keith Moore wrote: > On 11/4/19 2:54 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: > > > I wonder what people think would break if we moved to 5 AD's per area, > and they could divide the WG's and IESG concalls amongst themselves? > > I suspect it would mean that there'd be more ADs looking for nits to > pick in order to delay documents. > > Note: I DO NOT think that ADs see their purpose in picking nits or > delaying documents. But I do think there's a tendency for people in > any position to, perhaps subconsciously, try to "prove their worth", and > I suspect that having a lot more ADs would create perverse incentives. > > ADs do tend to be overloaded. Sometimes, IMO, it's because there is a > lack of political will (and/or community support) to push back against > new WGs that lack the energy or the clue to be doing what they propose > to do. Sometimes, IMO, it's because IETF has a longstanding Bad Habit > of trying to mask tussles by spinning up lots of narrowly focused WGs > with non-overlapping scope. > > But mostly, IMO, ADs are overloaded because we're trying to use > volunteers to do what should be paid positions with limited terms. > > Keith > > > --000000000000f4ab7905968dceac Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A Working Group chair role also have very tangible results= to employers.=C2=A0 They see the work we help shepherd and=C2=A0
i= t feels their corporate hearts with warmth.=C2=A0 I also like chairing work= ing groups - the interactions are much more personable
and enjoya= ble. I like to think I am OK at it.=C2=A0 But I also like working and I can= move in and out.=C2=A0

An AD job looks and feels = like middle management. I feel I would do a horrible job at it. =C2=A0=C2= =A0
I've always been lucky to have great ADs but I feel my ro= le is to make their jobs easier however possible.

= Tim


On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 6:17 PM Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>= ; wrote:
On 11/4/19 2:54 PM, Salz, Rich wrote:
> I wonder what people think would break if we moved to 5 AD's per a= rea, and they could divide the WG's and IESG concalls amongst themselve= s?

I suspect it would mean that there'd be more ADs looking for nits to pick in order to delay documents.

Note: I DO NOT think that ADs see their purpose in picking nits or
delaying documents.=C2=A0=C2=A0 But I do think there's a tendency for p= eople in
any position to, perhaps subconsciously, try to "prove their worth&quo= t;, and
I suspect that having a lot more ADs would create perverse incentives.

ADs do tend to be overloaded. =C2=A0 Sometimes, IMO, it's because there= is a
lack of political will (and/or community support) to push back against
new WGs that lack the energy or the clue to be doing what they propose
to do.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Sometimes, IMO, it's because IETF has a longst= anding Bad Habit
of trying to mask tussles by spinning up lots of narrowly focused WGs
with non-overlapping scope.

But mostly, IMO, ADs are overloaded because we're trying to use
volunteers to do what should be paid positions with limited terms.

Keith


--000000000000f4ab7905968dceac-- From nobody Mon Nov 4 21:32:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DAAA12084B for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 21:32:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4nzCM8nnpt1j for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 21:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33D7812082F for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 21:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id r144so21219375iod.8 for ; Mon, 04 Nov 2019 21:32:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CEr9p8KI0oq+6w9CGdp+sLJ/als5lrGJCOI1TVTFHfE=; b=NtY48Seqw3NFK12Jvs8KcWoFpZOxrdIPdIuRl7WaG2ZoVFRKyV1uXgbpr/2i7IwEqU rV/Wm0i7wmXWc8/s90zBUpSDpQp8ojWCusLm3qwLB8ul4PSdsDNinHa1KhTwTXj8VPFQ wu9chkfyGhLrwuXKzWVaPDq0UNgHy8T4d5S9JCYY/ic8J1ssIE5uGXf06nkn2Fl92FWT HF1ONnGAvifTIUGtjkaHasNR+U/hcZUO9lGNe6CAR+mjjJ4Lyy8hqrIe3nE83zAoyIMs 7nRdPGc2FETr4AjnmMEFDqGlMKC7PNC93v9S1cqdZRWgUOawjhWnl6vDxO/cM13KUj6h WAyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CEr9p8KI0oq+6w9CGdp+sLJ/als5lrGJCOI1TVTFHfE=; b=lRTWLdDqbOqftO4kmzqfVl0q63tF1VJv0ieOK7yC4oqA6eA28dLLooJBRv0XueiSDq nZ0lftX0LozPKhBSJCFn/Q0D4S5cYkQJxKPpUd43NUJrrsUbtaaTdEHI6zwf4PPDuZ7S E816i3LMSPzdMFDIABCqrINi0ijl8iz47FulEnYs3wqrPfHQ50sUm+0o6sW+n3X6JsPL EGmkCMcLNvFlF2cHBImtzdyYubKSWsKDLrqGXl9eusu8h6Ih2iAsEjVtmUua690XsHYT KTDgJru7DNleuQC/umSIUyRksjeZAl+rN6/lrTFgDz/7zplju2CNUrOzqSPyYJzdrhi0 a8MQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVyjn19Uuo8SR553EHhHNk0f3rLJ5BAr/JZi6vz5KeqAc4ou48n H40y/Eiq61e4/fge3W8fi5zRMeMFMUt+iu7+VTU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxteIgglXZogrQ4P9mrF2QUVpuu8oJ4bKX8Evj2dHhFubH+epUs75NOp5cxtWWapmloL85H05KQ3v/29FVR0OU= X-Received: by 2002:a02:9307:: with SMTP id d7mr1490573jah.103.1572931956246; Mon, 04 Nov 2019 21:32:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <3bbc73cc-6830-fa90-5d39-bdee12b0b6c1@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 21:32:23 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback To: Tim Wicinski Cc: Keith Moore , IETF Rinse Repeat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000820f8c059692c279" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 05:32:40 -0000 --000000000000820f8c059692c279 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 3:38 PM Tim Wicinski wrote: > > An AD job looks and feels like middle management. > Which of course raises the question: what do they actually do? The AD job description is strikingly concise. It seems to me that it's a lot of work, and requires knowing which people need to be in which conversations. That takes both technical and political savvy. It might be that the desirability and responsibility of an AD role will ebb and flow with the necessity for negotiation in a given area. thanks, Rob --000000000000820f8c059692c279 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 3:38 PM Tim Wicins= ki <tjw.ietf@gmail.com> wro= te:

An AD job looks and fee= ls like middle management.

Whic= h of course raises the question: what do they actually do? The AD job descr= iption is strikingly concise.

It seems to me that = it's a lot of work, and requires knowing which people need to be in whi= ch conversations. That takes both technical and political savvy.
=
It might be that the desirability and responsibility of an A= D role will ebb and flow with the necessity for negotiation in a given area= .

thanks,
Rob

<= br>

--000000000000820f8c059692c279-- From nobody Tue Nov 5 01:03:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4BC3120815; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 01:03:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FREEMAIL_DOC_PDF=0.01, T_HK_NAME_FM_MR_MRS=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kXbTCfzlfNoF; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 01:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com (mail-wm1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6304F120810; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 01:03:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id 6so16004386wmf.0; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 01:03:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8kxDwvq/2GHFAPvuDfTHz5p85/hWbVw3F3kXsY9u4Hc=; b=verP2jWpGMwpgXpE127q+psRhZPnf8+gCzRAYWBTW9r+6wmliWpev7wetWhjsEg3ne am3R7LGlDwzO9IY7HOZfY0BlGdUWZuT9bGh2gnumQbxzihhtYnlnpvZQi+L1WzWIqWsr y5nfADYGz0e8KcdXgCm3zd/9fEHB/hznw/nYvWoEyZxHNhqhmzgQXSKbWebJRlluIOGC FJUi52LVLAaDW+1sh54eCW24oU9/z+LKUwoDbbyIVkVh2K5d9ZZbdMFf3NlqJ2knoqnf n0tmId8ASqGwwnmhPrklX5BKsqXf7vnYLI4AxFEtyvqkTdOlQTzGsZn006z9NQjzUnVZ CV5w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8kxDwvq/2GHFAPvuDfTHz5p85/hWbVw3F3kXsY9u4Hc=; b=MTRTK/PCdpnKvUXJzNb8EOqO1JJrTELuYVE5Bq7em3gpYXgBvMVJ9jYPb25yB9LdD2 f4jOoCzdpSz3WtPtrLD/WWviFHaQhPxtSlSt5nSyf1L7c4q0bXB6LpiI2aMnYrhVQm0k oEj71pRmU3zbsO/9UTuX523xHjvt3H4Cetri5BW68gT0MTx6zl026IoQ/h1lZp1Yc7av p5MDyfna9/3U7TpYP7NVTWzSAnJDVRx8YzbJIqtitAATF2cXfv2+9IndErIUDKc+/A+q Et1qedXFW29Oj1Q4jaJC8BaI2r+PRb42grUSJ480rpTUnkAZAbIRKHALi/N4fqb6ey4s kuaA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW5Bbf6I7NOVLKFJTXuTWWYivyQqcGLNRLCyQZBMhooP9u+v+nW vWtKWYoKZstjgXnbkBxT5ubKe3Ij0kR3M05TCmA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyy4WliDN7TC6MzQ4KCUce8AKsOIvWdGZ/7pjdLK4+nCG0bUnYaiHDzgt4tFmqWDBWiiOJIRi1CzhXapYlfQpY= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:6a1a:: with SMTP id f26mr3207955wmc.19.1572944617943; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 01:03:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156156480691.19914.1926691912558233407@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 18:03:03 +0900 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [I2nsf] Yangdoctors last call review of draft-ietf-i2nsf-consumer-facing-interface-dm-05 To: Jan Lindblad Cc: "i2nsf@ietf.org" , YANG Doctors , draft-ietf-i2nsf-consumer-facing-interface-dm.all@ietf.org, IETF Discussion , skku-iotlab-members@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0000000000003568f2059695b50c" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 09:03:48 -0000 --0000000000003568f2059695b50c Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003568f0059695b50a" --0000000000003568f0059695b50a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Jan, I have revised the Consumer-Facing Interface Data Model draft according to your guideline as follows: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-i2nsf-consumer-facing-interface-dm-07 I attach a revision letter to explain how I revised this draft according to your comments. If you have further comments, please let me know. Thanks. Best Regards, Paul On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 5:21 PM Jan Lindblad wrote: > Paul, I2NSF team, > > Thanks for your volunteering to improve our Consumer-Facing Interface YANG > Module. > Could you propose a way to redesign ietf-i2nsf-cfi-policy.yang to befit > NACM? > > > Certainly. Find my proposed sketch for the module structure attached. > > I think it is important for the adoption of this module that it is > reasonably easy to implement it on top of existing NETCONF/RESTCONF/YANG > servers. They all implement the NACM management access control mechanism > today, so the ietf-i2nsf-cfi-policy module should build on that. It's > therefore important to leverage the existing NACM mechanisms and concepts > for groups, users, permissions. > > It would be technically possible to set up all the management access > control rules needed to implement the I2NSF ideas by only creating rules in > NACM. The NACM rules are massively more complex than the simple owner leaf > proposed in your YANG module, however. From a usability perspective I think > it makes good sense to keep the abstraction in ietf-i2nsf-cfi-policy and > let the module implementor make sure this high level authorization view is > translated into NACM specifics. > > In order to make this feasible, I changed the owner string leaf into a > leafref pointer to NACM groups, and removed the module's separate > identities for permissions. Let's adopt the NACM counterparts instead. The > structure of the rules was very flat, i.e. the domains, tenants, policies > and rules were mostly side by side, not reflecting their logical hierarchy > in the YANG. This would make the number of NACM rules to control access to > each individual item very high. By arranging them in a tree structure, I > believe the number of NACM rules can be kept to a minimum. NACM rules may > have a high impact on server performance, so it's important to not have > excessive amounts of them. > > I created a hierarchy with domains on top, each domain containing zero or > more tenants, each with zero or more policies that in turn consist of zero > or more rules. At each level it is possible to list owners in the form of > NACM groups. The module implementor would then have to translate these > owner references to actual NACM rules. > > Here is an example sketch configuration and the resulting NACM rules (in > CLI style syntax for readability): > > i2nsf-cfi domains domain example.com > owners [ example.com--eng-it ] > tenants tenant dev > policies policy team-black > owners [ example.com--dev ] > rules rule 2 > ! > rules rule allow-malware-sites > owners [ example.com--dev ] > > This is supposed to mean that members of the example.com--eng-it group > have full ownership of everything in the example.com domain. Within this > domain, there is a tenant called dev, with a policy called team-black. That > policy is owned by example.com--dev. This means this policy may be > updated by members in example.com--dev and example.com--eng-it. Within > the policy there are two rules ("2" and "allow-malware-sites"). The > "allow-malware-sites" rule has the example.com--dev group listed as > owner; this is superfluous. In this example, the rules are otherwise empty. > > In order for existing NC/RC/YANG servers to enforce the above, the > ietf-i2nsf-cfi-policy module implementation would need to translate the > intent above to NACM rules like the ones below. In this example, the > implementation created a rule to allow members of the dev and eng-it groups > within the example.com org to see the example.com domain and everything > within it. Next there is a rule to allow members of the example.com dev > group to update the policy named team-black within the dev tenant. Finally, > there is a rule to allow the eng-it group members to update anything within > the example.com domain. The default nacm policy per statement in the YANG > is to deny anyone else to see anything within the i2nsf domain. > > nacm rule-list example.com > group [ example.com--dev example.com--eng-it ] > rule read-all > path /i2nsf-cfi/domains/domain[name='example.com'] > access-operations read > action permit > ! > ! > nacm rule-list example.com--dev > group [ example.com--dev ] > rule 1 > path /i2nsf-cfi/domains/domain[name='example.com > ']/tenants/tenant[name='dev']/policies/policy[name='team-black'] > action permit > ! > ! > nacm rule-list example.com--eng-it > group [ example.com--eng-it ] > rule 1 > path /i2nsf-cfi/domains/domain[name='example.com'] > action permit > ! > ! > > NACM also contains a mapping from user names to groups. Is this in line > with your expectations? Do we need additional infrastructure to control > this mapping? > > nacm groups group example.com--dev > user-name [ jan vasilij ] > ! > nacm groups group example.com--eng-it > user-name [ chris victor ] > ! > nacm groups group example.com--finance > user-name [ clara sakura ] > ! > > What do you think about this approach to the management access control? > I'm not sure I got the relations between domains, tenants, policies and > rules as you want them. Are all these levels needed? Do you believe this is > this is a workable approach to your vision? > > Please let me know if you would like me to take any further steps with > this sketch. I should mention that I also have plenty of other comments on > your updated module, but I want to get the access control approach resolved > before looking at anything else. > > I am not aware of any particular party interested to implement our data > model. > > > Then it is all the more important that the solution can be implemented on > top of the existing servers out there without modifying them. > > Best Regards, > /jan > -- =========================== Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D. Associate Professor Department of Software Sungkyunkwan University Office: +82-31-299-4957 Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com, pauljeong@skku.edu Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php --0000000000003568f0059695b50a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jan,
I have revised the Consumer-Facing Interface D= ata Model draft according to your guideline as follows:
=C2=A0
I attac= h a revision letter to explain how I revised this draft according to your c= omments.

If you have further comments, please let = me know.

Thanks.

Best Reg= ards,
Paul

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 5:21 PM Jan Lindblad <= janl@tail-f.com>= ; wrote:
Pa= ul, I2NSF team,

Thanks for your volunteering to improve our Consumer-Facing Inte= rface YANG Module.
ietf-i2nsf-cfi-po= licy=C2=A0module should build on that. It's therefore important = to leverage the existing NACM mechanisms and concepts for groups, users, pe= rmissions.=C2=A0

It would be technically possible = to set up all the management access control rules needed to implement the I= 2NSF ideas by only creating rules in NACM. The NACM rules are massively mor= e complex than the simple owner leaf proposed in your YANG module, however.= From a usability perspective I think it makes good sense to keep the abstr= action in=C2=A0ietf-i2nsf-cfi= -policy=C2=A0and let the module implementor make sure this high leve= l authorization view is translated into NACM specifics.

In order to make this feasible, I changed the owner string leaf into = a leafref pointer to NACM groups, and removed the module's separate ide= ntities for permissions. Let's adopt the NACM counterparts instead. The= structure of the rules was very flat, i.e. the domains, tenants, policies = and rules were mostly side by side, not reflecting their logical hierarchy = in the YANG. This would make the number of NACM rules to control access to = each individual item very high. By arranging them in a tree structure, I be= lieve the number of NACM rules can be kept to a minimum. NACM rules may hav= e a high impact on server performance, so it's important to not have ex= cessive amounts of them.

I created a hierarchy wit= h domains on top, each domain containing zero or more tenants, each with ze= ro or more policies that in turn consist of zero or more rules. At each lev= el it is possible to list owners in the form of NACM groups. The module imp= lementor would then have to translate these owner references to actual NACM= rules.

Here is an example sketch configuration an= d the resulting NACM rules (in CLI style syntax for readability):

i2= nsf-cfi domains domain exa= mple.com
=C2=A0owners [ example.com--eng-it ]
=C2=A0tenants tenant dev
=C2=A0=C2=A0p= olicies policy team-black
=C2=A0 =C2=A0owners [ example.com--dev ]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0rules rule = 2
=C2=A0 =C2=A0!
=C2=A0 =C2=A0rules rule allow-malware-sites
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0owners [ e= xample.com--dev ]

This is supposed to m= ean that members of the ex= ample.com--eng-it group have full ownership of everything in the example.com domain. Within t= his domain, there is a tenant called dev, with a policy called team-black. = That policy is owned by ex= ample.com--dev. This means this policy may be updated by members in example.com--dev and example.com--eng-it. Withi= n the policy there are two rules ("2" and "allow-malware-sit= es"). The "allow-malware-sites" rule has the example.com--dev group listed as owne= r; this is superfluous. In this example, the rules are otherwise empty.

In order for existing NC/RC/YANG servers to enforce t= he above, the=C2=A0ietf-i2nsf= -cfi-policy=C2=A0module implementation would need to translate the i= ntent above to NACM rules like the ones below. In this example, the impleme= ntation created a rule to allow members of the dev and eng-it groups within= the example.com org t= o see the example.com = domain and everything within it. Next there is a rule to allow members of t= he example.com dev gro= up to update the policy named team-black within the dev tenant. Finally, th= ere is a rule to allow the eng-it group members to update anything within t= he example.com domain.= The default nacm policy per statement in the YANG is to deny anyone else t= o see anything within the i2nsf domain.

nacm rule-list example.com
=C2=A0group [ example.com--dev example.com--eng-it=C2=A0]
=C2= =A0rule read-all
=C2=A0=C2=A0path=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0/i2nsf-cfi/domains/domain[name=3D'example.com']
=C2=A0=C2=A0access-ope= rations read
=C2=A0=C2=A0action=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0permit
=C2=A0!
!
nacm rule-list example.com--dev
=C2=A0group [ example.com--dev ]
=C2=A0rule 1
= =C2=A0=C2=A0path=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0/i2nsf-cfi/domains/domain[name=3D'example.com']/tenants= /tenant[name=3D'dev']/policies/policy[name=3D'team-black']<= br>=C2=A0=C2=A0action permit
=C2=A0!
!
nacm rule-list example.com--eng-it
=C2=A0group [ example.com--eng-it ]
=C2=A0rule 1
=C2=A0=C2= =A0path=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0/i2nsf-cfi/domains/domain[name=3D'example.com']
=C2=A0=C2=A0a= ction permit
=C2=A0!
!

NACM also cont= ains a mapping from user names to groups. Is this in line with your expecta= tions? Do we need additional infrastructure to control this mapping?
<= div>
nacm groups group example= .com--dev
=C2=A0user-name [ jan vasilij ]
!
nacm groups group = example.com--eng-it=C2=A0user-name [ chris victor ]
!
nacm groups group example.com--finance
=C2=A0user-na= me [ clara sakura ]
!

What do= you think about this approach to the management access control? I'm no= t sure I got the relations between domains, tenants, policies and rules as = you want them. Are all these levels needed? Do you believe this is this is = a workable approach to your vision?

Please let me = know if you would like me to take any further steps with this sketch. I sho= uld mention that I also have plenty of other comments on your updated modul= e, but I want to get the access control approach resolved before looking at= anything else.

I am not aware of any particular party intereste= d to implement our data model.

Then it is all the more important that the solution can be implemente= d on top of the existing servers out there without modifying them.

Best Regards,
/jan
<= div>

<= br>
--
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeon= g, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Software
Sungkyunkwan U= niversity
Office: +82-31-299-4957
Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com,=C2=A0pa= uljeong@skku.edu
Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people= -jaehoon-jeong.php
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ZHN0cmVhbQ1lbmRvYmoNc3RhcnR4cmVmDQoxMTYNCiUlRU9GDQo= --0000000000003568f2059695b50c-- From nobody Tue Nov 5 01:24:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAF8D120137 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 01:24:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y1uiAx6WSPIk; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 01:24:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE8B5120860; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 01:24:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id xA59OMQ5028138 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 5 Nov 2019 04:24:25 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 01:24:22 -0800 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org" , ietf Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Message-ID: <20191105092422.GA61969@kduck.mit.edu> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <0053C5D9-E4D7-4BE0-9B73-3B7FC25561FB@akamai.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 09:24:30 -0000 On Tue, Nov 05, 2019 at 11:21:42AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 05-Nov-19 10:39, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > > > > On 04/11/2019 21:33, Salz, Rich wrote: > >> So something more lasting, like an IAB program? YAKOBE? > > > > Heh:-) > > > > To be clear: No, restructuring the IESG is so very > > definitely not the IAB's job. > > A draft in front of gendispatch might be the correct approach, > if there are any specific proposals. Although, reading > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-6.1.2, it's not > clear to me that any process changes are needed, since > nowhere is it specified that IESG members should perform > detailed technical reviews themselves. As far as I can see, > they could stop doing that tomorrow without breaking any > process rules, and choose to rely entirely on the various > review teams. The past few generic IESG job descriptions (as sent to Nomcom) have had some interesting text in this front (quoting from https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2019/expertise/#pos-iesg-members): % An AD should be able to personally review every Internet-Draft that they % sponsor. For other Internet-Drafts an AD needs to be satisfied that % adequate review has taken place, though many ADs personally review these % documents as well. That does, of course, leave the question open of what constitutes "adequate review", but it seems highly likely that the intent is to allow directorates to satisfy it. -Ben From nobody Tue Nov 5 07:52:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 019241200F5 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 07:52:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eI3BCyCjkYzc; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 07:52:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x335.google.com (mail-wm1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A91CE12010E; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 07:52:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x335.google.com with SMTP id q130so20682808wme.2; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 07:52:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=dUj6+bInjk5dqCVJI7XH8y7kZ+6OXx/QvOuqlSSzvFc=; b=o/KZfS4tITRWUGCjINPW22BMdtwYqA3UKG+8q0dOwhg5yGcAaJwznrnUex/DtdGbiF SMXJAMtloLs24UchLinK0NW7XrwTj6sO+eu8XzqE8WZm25vf28RGCrrY95FpEoRP86o0 Ms2Fw1K2aJ0nyARwflUMHru/SJzvxPUrqkZcFDWTdrNgj48BDu2zzjQgc9mtGjfwr480 eL767QOq8bV3NVqlyIzMdZhm3OlQnx4hA4wS3WP46+C8I8SINeF5i7r7s030JNCC+ipW fRgg+AMBXEjmc1LidfQjlJe2eqTEu7cEQZxJvmrhD/KrQDIRUGIpp+Pr/eCmNlnGyk6w WyAA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=dUj6+bInjk5dqCVJI7XH8y7kZ+6OXx/QvOuqlSSzvFc=; b=Sod8u5Bl1q6fOeHQDundZSAHyT7GvpDQNMhNwvdy+5Ule7YPf/oF4qwSS2jRPDOhn5 ktdMCwyjWKrUckANf9KDKQKkO2dRQOSbAlULv4kuaxn4wR0vAV1uFjMkD6zh2ItWVINY r88v2e7jaaaIVqhjUIoLpTGCpaxRsG40rNHY3P41ZZAcKlenOvlWB2uDfoKtYGGKRCFv 8mDwK115IwRrZR5YbrAy3MvpHkPPyZoLLSM7mlUQ97oM6469f7QfqBHVPFFFSI4lJhFm zJCjxvJpCHWrk3xWfAjIO7L+F2k3KRphlsS35SCxon+2DC+FZYETIWI45YwQ5Rdhudki j4Hg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVC2bdJ1elFKtJ87H9cmedbOEb8ACf4yGXtAXjHKMy14cG7GtxW jZ0KqTdLgGXKuyX4sdLy7Kk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzpGkaZ1wDnjHtPVuQ3+EBAQAFPCFagL+/4B4H8bZRI5MxoRHtQrv/6vWrz6Iv7HVjRohBdiw== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:cc0c:: with SMTP id f12mr4754629wmh.40.1572969153126; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 07:52:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:48c0:f3df:abc8:943c? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:48c0:f3df:abc8:943c]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j66sm15459813wma.19.2019.11.05.07.52.29 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Nov 2019 07:52:30 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <730534A0-2ADC-46B8-BB40-9EEDFCE08910@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CABDBE20-9FE7-4994-B1DE-289356D4FEDC"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 07:52:26 -0800 In-Reply-To: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , Jason Livingood , Paul Wouters , Kyle Rose , "nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org" , IETF To: "Salz, Rich" References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 15:52:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_CABDBE20-9FE7-4994-B1DE-289356D4FEDC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Rich, > On Nov 4, 2019, at 11:54 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: >=20 > I wonder what people think would break if we moved to 5 AD's per area, = and they could divide the WG's and IESG concalls amongst themselves? >=20 Why stop there, how about one AD per working group? I hope this helps makes it clear that more authority should go to the = w.g. chairs, adding more AD won=E2=80=99t scale. The NomCom needs to = be selecting people who are not the best technical experts in an area, = but who know enough to make sure that adequate review has been done in = the working groups, verify directorate reviews, and that last call = comments have been addressed. They don=E2=80=99t need to do detailed = technical reviews themselves. They especially don=E2=80=99t need to do = editorial reviews. This might also allow the ADs to spend more time on working group = charters to insure that the working group has the appropriate scope. Bob --Apple-Mail=_CABDBE20-9FE7-4994-B1DE-289356D4FEDC Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl3BmroACgkQrut0EXfn u6gBnAgAptjrECbbqHFJKVKA1XssJ+efMP/rRo7y/nKRrNretC6EUQMloCtXKqlC vlhpywKdmQHmOUFpSOj0Kw2PadRZYsofFtqFQOQ8ry4UzR6k1HeAPUyin3bQNLDJ tOgSc23IQFVbCcwgWbcPG6nDDh5hxtvU6U3ypUVTDip3Lno9ao9C3LPD/4ZOC7f5 r9Nj5bxvw9TMJqsaHyCBICa5wBV9EfgSfO8iha8LWb7n6ZOtHUx7IVtoiVTt95v3 1YnhBxbrGxXDqJ5F2Bsu+nFev7GP4947nr+kT76Sdt8uBbfvAuILxw0CrdVZjy+6 4u4C0v8JfLqsOqY+8hIu8M+1oE6ERg== =wl64 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_CABDBE20-9FE7-4994-B1DE-289356D4FEDC-- From nobody Tue Nov 5 08:21:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D98C312011B; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 08:21:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hcOYq1bjm1lS; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 08:21:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22893120124; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 08:21:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id j13so6856768ioe.0; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 08:21:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=T/79qMpSFMiVoIc7TSpbeJqMeYQVoNnrpUigN8V+C3U=; b=acOsPKm7Fnh83+kxnAPlG3FpNshVn6Kx9TfYwSIElt5PjwEYqjJZ0vAvAzjpW4dR4g JKAAk+Wgvxf5EoWpYVqWwFvyRV+85GUpOAIgDwLvpnBTzy9/45QtyVzO2N7BXBQOIrTO bFR0/LDTJ2U+LV5m2DYAGXqRC/ip2MuLxzbDZiYXo3/+6WHyK70HgSgidjcWA5blJ1+n E8JvDNFts4HOv2hFbOKuoKrFGa3iJqpVSg8WKXlPv44TQ5ezXhWAL/+aJn/5c8LhcUba DC2VaAhhesc6Ka2FLB0V+aNVfnAYLPvy/pa6j04MhhCudMWc4z8nEjPjs9f3ArGeKBzQ leaw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=T/79qMpSFMiVoIc7TSpbeJqMeYQVoNnrpUigN8V+C3U=; b=VXiXJq1ANVkmozYklOYBvztf1yjTX7rpm6RhpsjNMfmOzbbEX1NFCypaUfcPCrbLfl MtECrfknAK2ppGdSxdKio+Ty60sLWILxPG+fZTSqG7bkIOqCXFMKqngaH8s4CAAuYPvK POv0kv7ISR7m83VsO4u9VSPZSwEoNE2wS2g6oGu57M29qXx2RFdal6ONXgad5l/Idc8y xJhOuj2UtwcYTzkAgLYXAawG6EYq3ofDaLlMEx1zahpXP2dfR1Nem1GIGRNEPeoV8hQ6 L0PuJXlku2T8xDahnlQgP7M86b7tfsMV9ZtflfhZVhHyock91tDLiwMAQvwJplc993+h +1Rg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVkjb9muofDMzJAa7BSXGdvgwoooeWmFS+GpKAmX7Qo3Fy/h+oH xEU+tYauSkfbb4llMI1Qyu58RUwQCI0laswsQbU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy4CGc1nVCfOkrO0JoTyibchAY1qqF9IjxQmx3LIYILKmriZ78kJDlWBRiHIBanGhDRlvhIw5Qh5FmxyQvFp84= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:2c89:: with SMTP id s131mr28080357ios.276.1572970900265; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 08:21:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <0053C5D9-E4D7-4BE0-9B73-3B7FC25561FB@akamai.com> <20191105092422.GA61969@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20191105092422.GA61969@kduck.mit.edu> From: Donald Eastlake Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:21:29 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback To: Benjamin Kaduk Cc: ietf , nomcom-2019@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 16:21:43 -0000 On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 4:24 AM Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > ... > > The past few generic IESG job descriptions (as sent to Nomcom) have had > some interesting text in this front (quoting from > https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2019/expertise/#pos-iesg-members): > > % An AD should be able to personally review every Internet-Draft that they > % sponsor. For other Internet-Drafts an AD needs to be satisfied that > % adequate review has taken place, though many ADs personally review these > % documents as well. > > That does, of course, leave the question open of what constitutes "adequate > review", but it seems highly likely that the intent is to allow > directorates to satisfy it. I find the quality of directorate reviews to be highly variable. Sometimes they are quite deep and perceptive. Sometimes I have thought a draft needs a review by the X Directorate because of X issues in it and the resulting review has only a few comments on things found by the nits checker -- and I mean not just that it has no substantive comments on X issues, the review doesn't doesn't mention X at all, except possibly is boilerplate at the beginning of the review, not even to say that the reviewer didn't find any X issues in the draft :-( Thanks, Donald =============================== Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 2386 Panoramic Circle, Apopka, FL 32703 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com > -Ben From nobody Tue Nov 5 08:29:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A78531200D6 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 08:29:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qHGT5BzN7mIm; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 08:29:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x330.google.com (mail-ot1-x330.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::330]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C80101200C3; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 08:29:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x330.google.com with SMTP id v24so12858212otp.5; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 08:29:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=GQpIUH7tAhgwG+xSTvQjJB5PgZ32IWtKuJaw4wUK5kg=; b=JKa6BQ6aDD3SAdXkwtT7fnAF70YU36sYdMM/x74cJfuSoKYgxzGMO1oz0ZuLGxmpEk VN2YzCwRQgxvMIuJiCoPBnv9P4jvYCLAJKWWBgDTpaCWCI74bab39o0ZIX3B9SECVeD4 25wcfyC9a/OxhAzLg/fGTsBoGlrq/zt86wZqegFIeZgd0Tw1+2Q0EmvcwZoVLAdm3fJp D0+b7JRQKd9sv8cFGoCLha0IyfPRzQTiqQUjnYX4VKRtFExYFCEgQEMD8df/jLZ3yuA8 6VgJwgjK2nPN1I5aRMRuuMV9tYAen84xDL9a0y2btXb9iIvhpUBeSho5cLMyyQ/cMPz7 fSxw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GQpIUH7tAhgwG+xSTvQjJB5PgZ32IWtKuJaw4wUK5kg=; b=rVuLuYs1rKw3H8KdThUYIkMIeLun66Fz+MTNqQhXTrqrsHvCV4cGtgX2554aVY1qDG 7Hfl64NfkBVlkLm7PdGfcqVh/NYbHAGJdhh03FGPv9Kdv35WTSeFjaE/uLhi8Ug+Sehr +G/KsWyyg4+zQFlz9Bx19vtp8KSYVCMsk+3D7dC1vjABjF4sn7u9bxPsgekkpXxxtafZ N+fGawAAUJH1BLK2PtZOXNmY3OCwYwMLOoOEnfuFVvwFcZny0MS0tlgPeTTCo/lZbRQi leAyr8bxdTewfemzNI7vd7MVfYOpt/+fvYVh8/maTX7kxKkWNVvFSg3Z9uwAZzx13aCN dISA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX6pWfV8h+XSxjmOONeTUE2YomReNDRrItssaRFV5/hd3H5wgZx W1Yp8ORS5ZUZBUtzyBLrCsxHLk8LHBL62ndksEo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwE9RSWccWuJVTXp+o5ycJl3iaJqG7XExp/kaeukEEjqtc9wIhL79IqI0uNL5oIrA7oIZbeCuqG/qSBNHFCxAQ= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:53c4:: with SMTP id i4mr1977303oth.151.1572971392778; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 08:29:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <730534A0-2ADC-46B8-BB40-9EEDFCE08910@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <730534A0-2ADC-46B8-BB40-9EEDFCE08910@gmail.com> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:29:16 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback To: Bob Hinden Cc: "Salz, Rich" , IETF , "nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org" , Paul Wouters Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001bc66c05969bf177" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 16:29:57 -0000 --0000000000001bc66c05969bf177 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 10:52 AM Bob Hinden wrote: > Rich, > > > On Nov 4, 2019, at 11:54 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: > > > > I wonder what people think would break if we moved to 5 AD's per area, > and they could divide the WG's and IESG concalls amongst themselves? > > > > Why stop there, how about one AD per working group? > > I hope this helps makes it clear that more authority should go to the w.g= . > chairs, adding more AD won=E2=80=99t scale. The NomCom needs to be sele= cting > people who are not the best technical experts in an area, but who know > enough to make sure that adequate review has been done in the working > groups, verify directorate reviews, and that last call comments have been > addressed. They don=E2=80=99t need to do detailed technical reviews the= mselves. > They especially don=E2=80=99t need to do editorial reviews. > For editorial problems, I sent some documents back to the working group to figure out. Sometimes with prolific authors, people get very used to the writing style and are able to read it without problems. When it gets to the AD, the problems are sometimes more clear. Just pointing this out and sending it back was enough to resolve those issues, so yes, delegating. :-) AD reviews may be more in-depth, but cross area should just be focused on what the particular AD should be looking to see in documents from other areas IMO. While I did read most documents, you figure out where skimming is probably fine and learn where you may catch things of importance. It becomes less work if you do this after a few months in the job. A few calls of 800 pages to read really help you figure this out faster :-) Kathleen > This might also allow the ADs to spend more time on working group charter= s > to insure that the working group has the appropriate scope. > > Bob > > > > > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --0000000000001bc66c05969bf177 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 10:52 AM Bob H= inden <bob.hinden@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
Rich,=

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 11:54 AM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:
>
> I wonder what people think would break if we moved to 5 AD's per a= rea, and they could divide the WG's and IESG concalls amongst themselve= s?
>

Why stop there, how about one AD per working group?

I hope this helps makes it clear that more authority should go to the w.g. = chairs, adding more AD won=E2=80=99t scale.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The NomCom needs to= be selecting people who are not the best technical experts in an area, but= who know enough to make sure that adequate review has been done in the wor= king groups, verify directorate reviews, and that last call comments have b= een addressed.=C2=A0 =C2=A0They don=E2=80=99t need to do detailed technical= reviews themselves.=C2=A0 =C2=A0They especially don=E2=80=99t need to do e= ditorial reviews.

For editorial problem= s, I sent some documents back to the working group to figure out.=C2=A0 Som= etimes with prolific authors, people get very used to the writing style and= are able to read it without problems.=C2=A0 When it gets to the AD, the pr= oblems are sometimes more clear.=C2=A0 Just pointing this out and sending i= t back was enough to resolve those issues, so yes, delegating. :-)

AD reviews may be more in-depth, but cross area should jus= t be focused on what the particular AD should be looking to see in document= s from other areas IMO. While I did read most documents, you figure out whe= re skimming is probably fine and learn where you may catch things of import= ance.=C2=A0 It becomes less work if you do this after a few months in the j= ob.=C2=A0 A few calls of 800 pages to read really help you figure this out = faster :-)

Kathleen


This might also allow the ADs to spend more time on working group charters = to insure that the working group has the appropriate scope.

Bob






--

Best regards,
Kathleen
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Tue, 5 Nov 2019 16:35:12 +0000 From: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" To: IETF CC: "nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org" Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Thread-Topic: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Thread-Index: AQHVkllsQsmyoBEM6EmqzoxICvl3V6d6vluAgABDYACAAAVVgIAAZu0AgAAAwQCAAU6ZAIAAHLWA Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 16:35:12 +0000 Message-ID: <0AADFBC3-74E1-4994-A89F-5CEC608E3254@cisco.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <730534A0-2ADC-46B8-BB40-9EEDFCE08910@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <730534A0-2ADC-46B8-BB40-9EEDFCE08910@gmail.com> Accept-Language: fr-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1e.0.191013 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=evyncke@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2001:420:c0c0:1007::34c] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 4b246c32-b288-4fe9-2285-08d7620e2132 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM5PR11MB1770: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; 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Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:53:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <730534A0-2ADC-46B8-BB40-9EEDFCE08910@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <083a1fdc-e810-55eb-9b77-017213cba84d@network-heretics.com> Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:53:02 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <730534A0-2ADC-46B8-BB40-9EEDFCE08910@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 16:53:13 -0000 On 11/5/19 10:52 AM, Bob Hinden wrote: > I hope this helps makes it clear that more authority should go to the w.g. chairs, adding more AD won’t scale. The NomCom needs to be selecting people who are not the best technical experts in an area, but who know enough to make sure that adequate review has been done in the working groups, verify directorate reviews, and that last call comments have been addressed. One problem with that idea is that WGs too often work to the benefit of a narrow interest and to the detriment of other interests.   The IESG is the only formal mechanism we have to keep WGs from getting out of hand in that way.   So IMO the ADs need to have a high level of technical expertise, but broad technical expertise rather than narrow technical expertise. There's also a problem with relying on directorate reviews, which is that every reviewer approaches the situation from his or her own point of view, and sometimes reviewing a review is more work than reviewing the subject document.   Ideally an AD would have benefit of reviews from several reviewers across a spectrum of perspectives. Keith From nobody Tue Nov 5 10:49:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDBBA120142 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 10:49:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=7n/3OAd2; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=VMNcy4gz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5NYz8Hx-gD5w for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 10:49:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECFA2120116 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 10:49:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 64152 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2019 18:49:41 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fa96.5dc1c445.k1911; i=printer-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=mraTgRLX7Nn2k/O+dOvnmtmYkZpu495oUSx1oKOhYCM=; b=7n/3OAd2+sUnoyyX+4H3FHTNX8Isk9izez9eC3cjeCc5iFnZOlnPCa9WpIMH94+Fidir6VQyhK7aj1SjxzeM9jMDHSxVMhP5I2zbOG1P/NF3+r3huYdaqLnHSEeM7rVk+nvu+UZulfYthM4NVhPYZ/2JGuMYjsFvgrhittpeCAHcpSUVzpDpWB6YqrFaW53loXPjCXovVjLnG+Q9C5mXBqE+NL8+kAVXnwjiG22mzCjXBs5HuahfA0+wGIMgblvO DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fa96.5dc1c445.k1911; olt=printer-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=mraTgRLX7Nn2k/O+dOvnmtmYkZpu495oUSx1oKOhYCM=; b=VMNcy4gzyqOwQmODVj6aC4xX2g/vjrdqlHhwkTTmAHAB4s5v4UqE9ULWyfmVMt/CtW29t07Ps8ozeCLM3560szSg4vyDMtHmR5ZDNhfXOpVC8WY+Cdt6LgNMU6PTUBidClr1BcCLZBFuyt9LpABWu8hVrIUUCmdQ/pZv35ybP4U+e3xdgyHoz3K+zkGYNu/gPI+I+L9vqvCKZTPkgz9Uh3Vf12hIfvHH9U27/YRzURV5yM1i0uddQGgTKyJOrSGd Received: from ary.local ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, printer@iecc.com) via TCP6; 05 Nov 2019 18:49:41 -0000 Received: by ary.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id DF6AEE6A701; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 13:49:40 -0500 (EST) Date: 5 Nov 2019 13:49:40 -0500 Message-Id: <20191105184940.DF6AEE6A701@ary.local> From: "John Levine" To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback In-Reply-To: <7601008E-0E4A-42DD-9D5D-667A7603CE38@akamai.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 18:49:48 -0000 In article <7601008E-0E4A-42DD-9D5D-667A7603CE38@akamai.com> you write: >Far from it. If the job is too big (so that only full-sponsored people can be IESG members), then the choice is remove some of the work or add more people. I wouldn't think that adding people would help much since a lot of the work isn't divisible. ADs traditionally read all of the drafts, not just the ones in their area. I suppose we might say that if there are three or four ADs in an area, pick two or three at random for each drafts, but there's a lot of other places where all the ADs are involved. The number of communication paths grows as the square of the number of people. The way to have less work is to publish fewer RFCs, or perhaps shorter RFCs. We might, for example, revisit our policy of not doing versioned RFCs, and see if there's a way to do minor revisions without having to reopen the rest of a document. R's, John From nobody Tue Nov 5 11:00:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DA591209D0 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:00:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BuYXMOTA-jJU for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:00:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.127]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03C641209DF for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:00:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050096.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Tue, 5 Nov 2019 13:59:17 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.53]) by prod-mail-ppoint8.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2w154xae4q-4 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 05 Nov 2019 13:59:16 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 13:59:03 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.005; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 13:59:02 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: John Levine , "ietf@ietf.org" Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Thread-Topic: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Thread-Index: AQHVkllZtlByHExQzkS7nb/noDw4vqd7Ei2AgABDYACAAAVVgIAAZu0A//+s7wCAAaJrAP//uYiAgAB3/AD//67NAA== Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 18:59:01 +0000 Message-ID: <327DD4FA-D5C8-4CC2-A849-73D6CCCC69D3@akamai.com> References: <7601008E-0E4A-42DD-9D5D-667A7603CE38@akamai.com> <20191105184940.DF6AEE6A701@ary.local> In-Reply-To: <20191105184940.DF6AEE6A701@ary.local> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1f.0.191103 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.34.75] Content-Type: text/plain; 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Tue, 05 Nov 2019 11:15:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from appleton.fritz.box ([62.3.64.16]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h140sm440232wme.22.2019.11.05.11.15.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Nov 2019 11:15:37 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback From: Stewart Bryant In-Reply-To: <327DD4FA-D5C8-4CC2-A849-73D6CCCC69D3@akamai.com> Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 19:15:36 +0000 Cc: John Levine , "ietf@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <7601008E-0E4A-42DD-9D5D-667A7603CE38@akamai.com> <20191105184940.DF6AEE6A701@ary.local> <327DD4FA-D5C8-4CC2-A849-73D6CCCC69D3@akamai.com> To: "Salz, Rich" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3601.0.10) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 19:15:46 -0000 > On 5 Nov 2019, at 18:59, Salz, Rich wrote: >=20 >> I wouldn't think that adding people would help much since a lot of = the > work isn't divisible. ADs traditionally read all of the drafts, = not > just the ones in their area. >=20 > Does every AD read all the drafts? That depends. I tried to read every draft. I mostly succeeded. > I don't know. But changing the process to say one AD from each area = would reduce the load. That was tried. It did not entirely work. >=20 >> The number of communication paths grows as the square of > the number of people. >=20 > Second time this has been mentioned. There's a huge difference = between information-theory and practice. >=20 >> The way to have less work is to publish fewer RFCs, or perhaps = shorter > RFCs. >=20 > That is certainly *A* way, but not *THE* way. Then people would look to take their work elsewhere which has other = undesirable outcomes. - Stewart From nobody Tue Nov 5 11:18:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09CFA120A56 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:18:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id of2J3PAQjQrz for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:18:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x22d.google.com (mail-oi1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC94B120A42 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:18:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id n16so18617579oig.2 for ; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 11:18:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=284uUB4oLMPcoiMf9ajpT4ixSten1XAiq+QdQQLhcTs=; b=f3OQca4jMgpkaGqmPwNttmfyR4TxgN1kNficBXHja0L4oOnrLSutJKPj6xn76D+f0q sWXdc3rwGh56aVcRs/fcE2GzMpSvZlGNmuK2KildiG3Jh5OE5jC60wnJpByH3aGsUQoF NWP1ljXGs7m1yjQH7+YkPjAvvdsKI5RKPMq82A15/xB2CzDZllYZL5fyprinOTya8MhU w8e7DRNfOAYoUnyFUPOKDuNPFcOGhYrGTHwWi/2CQPxbQV0NCfx3VvtaiaBufMgOk0T5 /S1mXsrrxe3+6ldC2wuJ47/ywDoyQDIYcnR9SWCD2x1MSgGxC2rfPJHwK4RCJZuitNWc Nsfw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=284uUB4oLMPcoiMf9ajpT4ixSten1XAiq+QdQQLhcTs=; b=W/IqHx5jQwBhOxC6+slKZ4aOrOBpgDB1NjHRl6jQqh9UL4SB05Aev9jJ7CJDF6itNI 72FtTS/UBTaZf8zrrqg8vXkoXifuGPyEGJownqaic8lYYrRfQXoilelOpvjeLVEK1kvZ i0PNwkjQ1d1rgifTvwAhj13+AxX9NW+Eb4K0hHO/9hsTf4naQEaCXLzWrUGmxDnWh8HQ IvmP99BArt1T44fsJ3fRQ4YRsGtejVYqyK2rC0b7hBCVKxJWGhT8xm2f9PYIKo9hGKXM jnbj5s8JvYod1PUZe/xRFxRBcC0HG1drz5xYE4SEwyL1zb0inGuCWB12inkSy6w/LHr4 34HQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVceOzXk06r1jrqfjzE2sLWmMiEXgcu4c6Gwx+olDBwQG/Tc35z m88Gp3ni3QViV0jcb8u8UKb4d3bh9TeAx39XJ/WnIM6a X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzSGREOLqW0IBQtUZ1kFBGFmV6IgGHRz6jePEs8d7LiBxG3WeepVZtD43giFBqsuQsVr4HfbCrvXHMMGjwgJss= X-Received: by 2002:aca:d509:: with SMTP id m9mr495622oig.164.1572981497129; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 11:18:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7601008E-0E4A-42DD-9D5D-667A7603CE38@akamai.com> <20191105184940.DF6AEE6A701@ary.local> <327DD4FA-D5C8-4CC2-A849-73D6CCCC69D3@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <327DD4FA-D5C8-4CC2-A849-73D6CCCC69D3@akamai.com> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 14:17:39 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: John Levine , "ietf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005ff14305969e4ba5" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 19:18:28 -0000 --0000000000005ff14305969e4ba5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 2:00 PM Salz, Rich wrote: > > I wouldn't think that adding people would help much since a lot of the > work isn't divisible. ADs traditionally read all of the drafts, not > just the ones in their area. > > Does every AD read all the drafts? I don't know. But changing the > process to say one AD from each area would reduce the load. > Some divide it up. Pete & Barry had a split. If there was a big load, Stephen would start from one end of the list and I'd start from the other. We both mostly wanted to 'read' them all though. > > The number of communication paths grows as the square of > the number of people. > > Second time this has been mentioned. There's a huge difference between > information-theory and practice. > > > The way to have less work is to publish fewer RFCs, or perhaps shorter > RFCs. > > That is certainly *A* way, but not *THE* way. > > > -- Best regards, Kathleen --0000000000005ff14305969e4ba5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 2:00 PM Salz, = Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote= :
>=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 I wouldn't think that adding people would help much since a lot of = the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 work isn't divisible.=C2=A0 ADs traditionally read all of= the drafts, not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 just the ones in their area.

Does every AD read all the drafts?=C2=A0 I don't know.=C2=A0 But changi= ng the process to say one AD from each area would reduce the load.
Some divide it up.=C2=A0 Pete & Barry had a split.=C2=A0 I= f there was a big load, Stephen would start from one end of the list and I&= #39;d start from the other.=C2=A0 We both mostly wanted to 'read' t= hem all though.=C2=A0


> The number of communication paths grows as the square of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the number of people.

Second time this has been mentioned.=C2=A0 There's a huge difference be= tween information-theory and practice.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The way to have less work is to publish fewer RFCs, or pe= rhaps shorter
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFCs.

That is certainly *A* way, but not *THE* way.




--

Best regards,
Kathleen
--0000000000005ff14305969e4ba5-- From nobody Tue Nov 5 13:51:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E32612008F for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 13:51:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FuQRfrNe6-3x for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 13:51:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95150120018 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 13:51:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79B283897A for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 16:48:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A772E760 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 16:50:57 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: ietf Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback In-Reply-To: <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 21:51:15 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Brian E Carpenter wrote: > If we want the IESG job to be more reasonably sized, we have to take > work away from the ADs. As far as I can see, that means taking away > their duty of acting as final reviewers. I don't want to name names > because I don't think the ADs are to be blamed individually, but some > of them spend *enormous* effort on detailed reviews. +1 I think that there is a lack of trust by ADs of the various directorates. -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3B7sEACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUAUwf/Sm1BUjOP/m47plZFqL4wcJrv4GbaAYg4DNfgiW3akPCKbxB5e9P5ZLjj ajrzfpUbIvB7MfF1fzxRc44sKFd/hgVdCzYpK6v9PvlQ56G00Ua5VeqxAVtAVarl hIpI7htB9scpoc6muUzW1KqPLIL3+PufUQj6BXnlmgWRlPzhqD1C8jLOTspNIJo6 gnX8uqPqZXTRuo6BIiYQRKB5T7tBtcLytbOJBS/mMR7/McK2g4HNNuKO93ke75eE E5fd/mQvIOaWyfZ3wNeCxIUrsvBdOPBbih4manwyCM0eZoG6pO9pTZ3TtMx+hrV/ 0E8m5ti2IxJMPPuaanbIU+IBcgSYug== =9/rR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Nov 5 14:32:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837CB120C2C for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 14:32:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=krose.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BvR0hF4eLdPm for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 14:32:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 453BA12008F for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 14:32:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com with SMTP id b2so10093318ybr.8 for ; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 14:32:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=krose.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DgpQKhzupGZTm8VKVbIvNndu5n6e8rzYqX6LiXbDubI=; b=Y9MzPZZdW3VB2sQEf/g7db7LkNFlarUYmCDpKbZwhNuInVYe41cv4JbDyaU1nR76LD tdIRudeBKn+36wXA/nZNXqhIuWNeuRXLyaNNH8fB0E18fjJwCei6pOisYnxqh2ev8ZzL 2GmnwJe8NRmVnwmyPglmQna08WiZDD3JHwlCI= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DgpQKhzupGZTm8VKVbIvNndu5n6e8rzYqX6LiXbDubI=; b=EoaT6SfLytPBY2ZsE1OLJlWBmp2bSBYr/6UMfWd6GCjt7o6gHWichzJb6yupJkyNbF lW/jllVKEoc7HY8oYuMsx9WkJxmOLPQjvb7peEt7PstYE9CkJZOiIx/iGrsugGdxFMSY vS8UiVTTr44S2A71PUG7U8LmTere1JL4WrJKxvMu1iLmxPOSWjCh2E/sKzh4Qp2hHYjh vGZwDmiuzfQJVycGuHgJ7gsEQoZ8+2CI2eHXuZiSzm2siBSrq7ukcAo6SZ7lHx5LmAs2 QhUp7mDRkgGlgTM23OE70Bqx0dgBlgCbV5jqV/DW7BKSDqBZWLqPDqNHsTcc0XCqcsig IX4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWv+lk2/WWCmwTfRMlpU9SCd8thnuYc9vK4w1hTdwAdqW/zcq+V xfwRR1nADqLSrIGzWrykqbxuolCcrS9y4FIa6jVWtKsoWO0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwwlJ6BltHF0AUjQIGOv89QehOSRQCg9maZKQt70iT6d+Z0GirVJjMuU0ztD7Iv9vYURomJCzcI1KS/93bV/TQ= X-Received: by 2002:a25:bdd4:: with SMTP id g20mr28635017ybk.127.1572993132947; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 14:32:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> In-Reply-To: <26819.1572990657@localhost> From: Kyle Rose Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 17:32:01 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback To: Michael Richardson Cc: ietf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ec80a90596a100f2" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 22:32:25 -0000 --000000000000ec80a90596a100f2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 4:51 PM Michael Richardson wrote: > > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > If we want the IESG job to be more reasonably sized, we have to take > > work away from the ADs. As far as I can see, that means taking away > > their duty of acting as final reviewers. I don't want to name names > > because I don't think the ADs are to be blamed individually, but some > > of them spend *enormous* effort on detailed reviews. > > +1 > > I think that there is a lack of trust by ADs of the various directorates. > To be fair, output quality even within a particular directorate is highly variable. If we were to go down this path, the directorates would need to step up. That means: * Better, more comprehensive area-specific reviews * Completed on time * Employing consistent standards, objectives, and issue coverage * Possibly with explicit training and written resources guiding reviews * Escalation of specific issues to the AD or to the wider directorate * Most importantly, a feedback loop: reviews subjected to metrics and success criteria evaluated on an on-going basis Redundancy (multiple reviewers) and/or alignment with subject matter expertise (rather than round-robin assignment) would probably help immensely. Kyle --000000000000ec80a90596a100f2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 4:51 PM Michael Ri= chardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.= ca> wrote:

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > If we want the IESG job to be more reasonably sized, we = have to take
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > work away from the ADs. As far as I can see, that means = taking away
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > their duty of acting as final reviewers. I don't wan= t to name names
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > because I don't think the ADs are to be blamed indiv= idually, but some
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > of them spend *enormous* effort on detailed reviews.

+1

I think that there is a lack of trust by ADs of the various directorates.

To be fair, output quality even within a= particular directorate is highly variable. If we were to go down this path= , the directorates would need to step up. That means:

<= div>* Better, more comprehensive area-specific reviews
* Complete= d on time
* Employing consistent standards, objectives, and issue= coverage
* Possibly with explicit training and written resources= guiding reviews
* Escalation of specific issues to the AD or to = the wider directorate
* Most importantly, a feedback loop: re= views subjected to metrics and success criteria evaluated on an on-going ba= sis

Redundancy (multiple reviewers) and/or alignme= nt with subject matter expertise (rather than round-robin assignment) would= probably help immensely.

Kyle

<= /div>
--000000000000ec80a90596a100f2-- From nobody Tue Nov 5 14:55:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADE4D120C1D for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 14:55:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t3G5cGSCb7i7; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 14:55:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com (mail-pg1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CCEA120C19; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 14:55:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id l24so15641968pgh.10; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 14:55:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UIpcJ8EVOr9LschbGhFHCoUoukR4qeo3satRucr/AAk=; b=UdF0bwU1JRuU8vYMnNo1d6JPhmRCV91a91enNUzE8KUYotdz7DTNK0zagPYw/dd8FK /TdiICsmZ5InWokVwwvDyd6HZsqDggV1CYbshBxdzv11AcwzpG9UQvLKs6nbRUZn5c+b s2N36S9BQqPHRfmfymBBGAQUFYQu28CGe5J0msKSmDhgmJsGIf5svAVWSlLtk0ua2N0P 2eW/SwvurecHT3yWw4k9gtufq10nZCMxqCGWSGjhPR38KQCv61FetXt4ChOFWLUjPgXe hJJFKzG1yeq+jNRZBg6khtGklwzxU0EQ3/CMuLVhw/qYZefsXQJlfa8KEUsZGBees0yk 3HbQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=UIpcJ8EVOr9LschbGhFHCoUoukR4qeo3satRucr/AAk=; b=iwZhhE+ax7c4ZroSF1MPARK2NWQhrBOhqDWoOahniI/N2b8W8+C8ZdVaAkSdfaXb67 Y3UcXZt+iBtY4lO0xyqwrrHEUBQCLxUQgAIBdd/FoEs6F5QsU2cuz8gos5pB/qNrYrgf putuu4Jj8D//wcr2PwqaFVEZLwkuEqXEYgimyyWA4Ko9hJBxsFkkN9ls2MUCwPxMa77O PBOi4dbE3Oq3m72zcOdJzd2gRUzcoBw/Rqk0yk4adyEdEah0/xkereAkCEcODOrbjO79 7BBGLd7myCuvXbEahzO+8xdZdKob4CFRL/2jnhGfG++WMNsf9vz0KGXB59kcxTYZv63j vGUw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWtA5saTX5NDyt39KtqnYwxRykO5SocW0GRjf5FSenyXK8mVNcE QLbXO/BW1pt+JTSmUCESEb2LAhKl X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwnuAmuCBAYIcfIeGziEt4vr0qCjTeG+gcvHjR1vOuqMwNiXsW7RsYFdU4i1/5QW7T7ukyRuw== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8edd:: with SMTP id b29mr4610250pfr.23.1572994499665; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 14:54:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (8.166.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.166.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v16sm520667pje.1.2019.11.05.14.54.57 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Nov 2019 14:54:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback] To: ietf Cc: "nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org" References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <0053C5D9-E4D7-4BE0-9B73-3B7FC25561FB@akamai.com> <20191105092422.GA61969@kduck.mit.edu> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 11:54:56 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20191105092422.GA61969@kduck.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 22:55:09 -0000 On 05-Nov-19 22:24, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: ... > The past few generic IESG job descriptions (as sent to Nomcom) have had > some interesting text in this front (quoting from > https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2019/expertise/#pos-iesg-members): > > % An AD should be able to personally review every Internet-Draft that they > % sponsor. For other Internet-Drafts an AD needs to be satisfied that > % adequate review has taken place, though many ADs personally review these > % documents as well. I'm sure the last clause is true, but maybe it's an error to include it in the job description almost as if it is a duty. On 06-Nov-19 05:35, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > 1) AD are 'responsible' so they do need to check the intensive work of WG, shepherd, IETF last call and directorate Yes, but that does *not* necessarily require this: > 6) reviews are probably 50% of our time And Eric also said: > 2) sometimes the directorate reviews come too late for the IESG ballot for approval In that case, perhaps the response should be to defer the ballot automatically, and make it public that the reason is a late review. Also, do some areas only request telechat reviews? In my experience in Gen-ART, most issues and fixes occur during Last Call reviews, so that the telechat review is often a formality. On 06-Nov-19 08:17, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >> Does every AD read all the drafts? I don't know. But changing the process to say one AD from each area would reduce the load. > > Some divide it up. Pete & Barry had a split. If there was a big load, Stephen would start from one end of the list and I'd start from the other. We both mostly wanted to 'read' them all though. The word that stands out for me is "wanted". Similarly, it's because I *want* to track the technology that I've been a Gen-ART reviewer for many years. But if (as people say every year at about this time) we really need to reduce the AD workload to something more like part-time, some things have to change. It seems to me that the IESG itself can make such changes, since this is a matter of procedures rather than our formal rules. It's too late for this year, but maybe next year's NomCom could have an easier job. Brian From nobody Tue Nov 5 18:23:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DE13120828 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 18:23:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=N7snUbxz; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=CUkTnnZA Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5yVxqxs7TYW7; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 18:23:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47F9D120826; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 18:23:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7337A21B34; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 21:23:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 05 Nov 2019 21:23:06 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=H 9yAEEo/O7KO4377YPqXvPueGwiWIq4S2VkYREitjUE=; b=N7snUbxzzN065YEEN g3zZjhBKVrc/SGcqyiZ7k3fmFIFbElNIykZab8l52ZhaZUv/qrqYZ5tFl2r7mZL/ AiCiVnuQ6rNx1y2enMjOASOqckmgRfqYhA9fDvSsbs6XCCjgfvFfeEPvbEx03hvU W3Jpvn4sb3WthDsaJ05oHaKL8IIyey9qT4lhIai/sl8r5y2WjEwqM9NBSms9vGpi egAUVMyceSvta4z6BCSdIavh9gD4WUqGc0LsMzl8j2kbs4Q5ZBCZnwxRLbkU+lRk GTn1nWXLdAFqXmLiM+/N+QEYODJBqHXQ+tNw+FvkB41InActgI3dCEkWNJwt8qhB 5t6Aw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=H9yAEEo/O7KO4377YPqXvPueGwiWIq4S2VkYREitj UE=; b=CUkTnnZAc6M6mLjgAAA7ImCZg64eo3cdk2miTcBd6RgspA+VW/E91hLcZ 96sDKT7kzVmpVOtketJgITZ86/2qHoRg6V6Kxrkoetc6bk7EH1WXIo5/3KVsUdqy HBs0cj4R34T7qXkxGJINCFdHAYKf2teV51BQktw1+MPJWIyGi8viddi2ltmaK1bM sHrvGYZlFmDHbHcvwleEz+qH1U5rF4/oEaKAKkeSyNVy0kTpgLbYFZMJSKePteN8 KsuGsIvyjP8KsQm3MC6meaU5yZb/Axa3DNUsbZAbeb+kGgzCNANxtS1XsibXgRuH kmWrcWC1RDBaYDFjcdpltd5a2AcKw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudduiedggeeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinh epihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucfkphepudduledrudejrdduheekrddv hedunecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuve hluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from macbook-pro.mnot.net (unknown [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C32128005B; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 21:23:04 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) Subject: Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback] From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 13:22:59 +1100 Cc: ietf , "nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7E267F5B-0921-412F-B1A5-9A3E5096BD8F@mnot.net> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <0053C5D9-E4D7-4BE0-9B73-3B7FC25561FB@akamai.com> <20191105092422.GA61969@kduck.mit.edu> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3601.0.10) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 02:23:28 -0000 +1 to the Brian's thoughts below. I think this is one of the most important things we as a community need = to address; we have a culture of expecting "heroes" to step up and take = this job. That's going to bite us, sooner or later. Cheers, > On 6 Nov 2019, at 9:54 am, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 05-Nov-19 22:24, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > .... >> The past few generic IESG job descriptions (as sent to Nomcom) have = had >> some interesting text in this front (quoting from >> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2019/expertise/#pos-iesg-members): >>=20 >> % An AD should be able to personally review every Internet-Draft that = they >> % sponsor. For other Internet-Drafts an AD needs to be satisfied that >> % adequate review has taken place, though many ADs personally review = these >> % documents as well.=20 >=20 > I'm sure the last clause is true, but maybe it's an error to include = it in the job description almost as if it is a duty. >=20 > On 06-Nov-19 05:35, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: >=20 >> 1) AD are 'responsible' so they do need to check the intensive work = of WG, shepherd, IETF last call and directorate >=20 > Yes, but that does *not* necessarily require this: >=20 >> 6) reviews are probably 50% of our time >=20 > And Eric also said: >=20 >> 2) sometimes the directorate reviews come too late for the IESG = ballot for approval >=20 > In that case, perhaps the response should be to defer the ballot = automatically, and make it public that the reason is a late review. >=20 > Also, do some areas only request telechat reviews? In my experience in = Gen-ART, most issues and fixes occur during Last Call reviews, so that = the telechat review is often a formality. >=20 > On 06-Nov-19 08:17, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >=20 >>> Does every AD read all the drafts? I don't know. But changing the = process to say one AD from each area would reduce the load. >>=20 >> Some divide it up. Pete & Barry had a split. If there was a big = load, Stephen would start from one end of the list and I'd start from = the other. We both mostly wanted to 'read' them all though. >=20 > The word that stands out for me is "wanted". Similarly, it's because I = *want* to track the technology that I've been a Gen-ART reviewer for = many years. But if (as people say every year at about this time) we = really need to reduce the AD workload to something more like part-time, = some things have to change. >=20 > It seems to me that the IESG itself can make such changes, since this = is a matter of procedures rather than our formal rules. It's too late = for this year, but maybe next year's NomCom could have an easier job. >=20 > Brian >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Nov 5 18:46:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FC7312003E for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 18:46:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aF0kMDH1JgyQ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 18:46:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6ED8D12002E; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 18:46:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id 1so25302186iou.4; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 18:46:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=aX4mpIVKFYAr8HWwgQ8o36OP2+cCZ6hXQkJIu4hs68g=; b=Hb5zaHOcYTRjRQEsttXXBQYuEp4HzpjCBfFPs893CUSrWgUoFV/qYTOyRisJLP9SQJ /xYRr/7nupisGwYaGZglNJ6A4aa4USMkoviVsjzaDlP4cVjobHUftZ61YLbA7tEsHTSv 0zZhHTpBbP82W+xFtkaXR8oHvijz5CURFyyUG09vsDVZfAtxDeWbpTNiS+HvIBuEWva0 ofkI0BFuFcScAwv40tTTUOcaBxUXeA59tbcA0kH8gzH/En27SCGNJxvKuxwHZCz5H9wd HPzPDczW7pJHipOLSFQhMdMYtEUq657PWbkrhMHIeRp3iiqHRpVSYPkMzxHofOvFlHMW WVsw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=aX4mpIVKFYAr8HWwgQ8o36OP2+cCZ6hXQkJIu4hs68g=; b=BnkGpUyA33XMqxFkeZktE+DdJy+2drImQThcevcl0WFvcEMaBohY7jwN5+IyUXobKX wu+DuxoNzlfrCwHlPgjQlzkIZ/ZszLAKvGPBwJ7aaoWBdwY56qmG2TcHoGTLHfqLPl2y mf2Z4hPxH2Phic2So+YRgxNk/Lt9z3NpCKmIW8FM4kAt4XGPH4pL3zDwc4f3ZgJu+Bnm 0lLl86sAzbk358cGuTenz9Qmdmj2CldQFJgGg5uN6f/kTnIHdN33EOrRtFp07Ym9/FPq SWsbYwiqoN1v8DlcB0CBtUZuGm5GaDQGj+Iy2GcA12H2akZEbsDX1DXbx+EZO2CnEcBO xgvw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUzyOFfeTVbtAO2NO4n6rqOHtce+QN3BN/+iLECZ4Q6NZjGOVah FBSSHwromSNGoutI2iCogfTA8jMcVG/NB2Ovq0U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzbfkWHHF/OSu3Gwam0lHZ0arlMRbBzj9X2d3tGOaSuJoTJHiQcItW95+0zJf8Lptw8LjvpKtACi1xsrpdYMsE= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:1489:: with SMTP id 131mr11634530iou.257.1573008382537; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 18:46:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <0053C5D9-E4D7-4BE0-9B73-3B7FC25561FB@akamai.com> <20191105092422.GA61969@kduck.mit.edu> <7E267F5B-0921-412F-B1A5-9A3E5096BD8F@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <7E267F5B-0921-412F-B1A5-9A3E5096BD8F@mnot.net> From: Rob Sayre Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 18:46:08 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback] To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Brian E Carpenter , "nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org" , ietf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000deb58c0596a48dec" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 02:46:25 -0000 --000000000000deb58c0596a48dec Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 6:23 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > +1 to the Brian's thoughts below. > > I think this is one of the most important things we as a community need to > address; we have a culture of expecting "heroes" to step up and take this > job. That's going to bite us, sooner or later. > This message seems very correct to me. A first step might be to evaluate the degree to which the IETF is viewed as a spec printer. I've been on the IETF list for 15 years (mostly silently), and I think most documents are pretty bad. thanks, Rob --000000000000deb58c0596a48dec Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 6:23 PM Mark Notti= ngham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
=
+1 to the Brian's thoughts below.

I think this is one of the most important things we as a community need to = address; we have a culture of expecting "heroes" to step up and t= ake this job. That's going to bite us, sooner or later.

This message seems very correct to me.

<= /div>
A first step might be to evaluate the degree to which=C2=A0the IE= TF is viewed as a spec printer. I've been on the IETF list for 15 years= (mostly silently), and I think most documents are pretty bad.
thanks,
Rob

--000000000000deb58c0596a48dec-- From nobody Tue Nov 5 19:08:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45457120826 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 19:08:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=terrym-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vBb50s9M8Jt3 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 19:08:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x42c.google.com (mail-pf1-x42c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 619F612003E for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 19:08:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x42c.google.com with SMTP id s5so9474361pfh.9 for ; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 19:08:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=terrym-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to :date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=JGbfQcRgoJiob7t3GfWp6LCYnbQS9cDxMeC0id4iFwc=; b=fIlwZIIr+iKN2oCHeGCGAAi5Yaw/fcEybh6hFeYD3V3vL9wiG6oZ+ORa5j+U0dswrb RSaEzakebd+E4+nMKCw4+XFM3go0ewa2YzrHvyJ055kWvetTgW9yVQEpLPjBYkcTRffh /UnDQHHypifcq3ZTTkCG7A0c6DuxMwSgRgR1oMZfZPlS4QHK26PVS4YHamI+bKr2XppL J3nvZaBO03Jg2qfPVZr6oq3NZCYnJULVakQLCNsIRNrvYf7xOAogr3lEbWtk9yCH6Get psMoQknJ6muod8rBJo4fUFoiio9I6u/AoGOJ+X+YHmU8ubzJpabmI3KQKgGesBw/azRB JtWQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject :from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=JGbfQcRgoJiob7t3GfWp6LCYnbQS9cDxMeC0id4iFwc=; b=UHt6vtNejeQ+aMMdD2tBZgonejuP3bgbtx3S8EvSEZennUGhc36QMgLD0obdbg9yRL w5ebSqikTqW582qy1zxw/8KraD/0O2Z4Y49xgVBUUUpW1saIV8v6iTykpzs6d0/FaG07 HLv0mgbYQMJQY05CgO8bjnwLSgnYROIqT10j0i6N8Yf4C2nupaA39Eh/L1Q8XnAtRcqS 4PjToLs3NaGZc5Rkbdrp5sPjIpfE2Rco+6CVG3zVYwvxjfI+ILJTXSXL4ZwnaoCDPFn/ oFxi9tIgYTGWI7p9MfpIeYlEwbJ/EJb5n/fjrO8sCFIf9xm26/I0mgxk7JrlUkYDAdz4 wDUA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWzxq4u8eGWge2lXp2NODAlXpc/+3zzIpRCiz8voy2oMsro+vCz VcwtEVjimKPmpEVB/E2ZRNFYLkUrHCc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxZjR2tzBhkv3JDxI1/6odf8xGAm4PZJmoIzF2f7ijbB5wHK6j+GgXBZVv7yGjoZ1FS2EVNOA== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:963c:: with SMTP id r28mr418364pfg.91.1573009715473; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 19:08:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:8004:12c2:595c:84ca:f0ad:6ec6:b21? ([2001:8004:12c2:595c:84ca:f0ad:6ec6:b21]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a29sm29525223pfr.49.2019.11.05.19.08.34 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Nov 2019 19:08:34 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback] From: Terry Manderson In-Reply-To: <7E267F5B-0921-412F-B1A5-9A3E5096BD8F@mnot.net> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 13:08:32 +1000 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , "nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org" , ietf Message-Id: References: <7E267F5B-0921-412F-B1A5-9A3E5096BD8F@mnot.net> To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: iPad Mail (17B84) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 03:08:38 -0000 I=E2=80=99ve been watching this thread with an extreme level of interest. And this, for better or worse, is my opinion. The IETF needs to want to chan= ge. The days, as Mark describes, of having that technical hero is gone. It=E2= =80=99s time now to trust directorate reviews, and for WGs to make sure the W= G does it=E2=80=99s own review. The days of a WG throwing a document over th= e wall to get AD acceptance really needs to be in the past. The =E2=80=9Cmy A= D will handle it=E2=80=9D approach needs to be set aside. That document has t= o be proven before it gets to the rubber stamp process. How you get there will require a culture change more significant than living= through behaviours towards new participants, greater gender diversity invol= vement, cultural sensitives, and and understanding of the leadership/followe= r dynamic. The reason that it will be hard is that the extant culture (while= I accept and appreciate my predecessors) is that it is built on the shoulde= rs of legends. It=E2=80=99s now the time of the IETF to have a championship t= eam, rather than a team of champions. Each member of that team needs to be r= esponsible and accountable for their contribution. The world is changing aro= und us, much faster than we can adapt. The IETF agility is, sadly, deserving= of being turbo charged, and you can=E2=80=99t do that with a hand-full of b= rilliant people as the =E2=80=9Cfixers=E2=80=9D.=20 That is why the AD workload remains so high. Stop relying on the ADs to bles= s your =E2=80=9Cbaby=E2=80=9D (document). Make sure while in the WGs that WG= -doc truely is ready to be published. Seek your own cross area and Directora= te reviews. Be ruthless in what you write. Join Directorates en-masse. Learn= how to review other=E2=80=99s documents and look out for your area or WG. M= ake sure you have thought about all scenarios. Work, above all, with your fe= llow contributors towards the best (not perfect) outcome that is deployable.= Understand that while the IETF has a huge reputation, there are other standa= rds bodies that are doing this better, and faster, and resulting in bigger i= mprovements to technology.=20 This is not something one or two leaders can do for you. This you must all d= ecide is appropriate and empower your leaders. Leaders can only exist with s= upport. You decide. The change comes from within first. Cheers, Terry -- Mobile device, don't expect grammar. > On 6 Nov 2019, at 12:23 pm, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF+1 to the Brian's thoughts below. >=20 > I think this is one of the most important things we as a community need to= address; we have a culture of expecting "heroes" to step up and take this j= ob. That's going to bite us, sooner or later. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 >=20 >> On 6 Nov 2019, at 9:54 am, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>=20 >> On 05-Nov-19 22:24, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >> .... >>> The past few generic IESG job descriptions (as sent to Nomcom) have had >>> some interesting text in this front (quoting from >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2019/expertise/#pos-iesg-members): >>>=20 >>> % An AD should be able to personally review every Internet-Draft that th= ey >>> % sponsor. For other Internet-Drafts an AD needs to be satisfied that >>> % adequate review has taken place, though many ADs personally review the= se >>> % documents as well.=20 >>=20 >> I'm sure the last clause is true, but maybe it's an error to include it i= n the job description almost as if it is a duty. >>=20 >> On 06-Nov-19 05:35, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: >>=20 >>> 1) AD are 'responsible' so they do need to check the intensive work of W= G, shepherd, IETF last call and directorate >>=20 >> Yes, but that does *not* necessarily require this: >>=20 >>> 6) reviews are probably 50% of our time >>=20 >> And Eric also said: >>=20 >>> 2) sometimes the directorate reviews come too late for the IESG ballot f= or approval >>=20 >> In that case, perhaps the response should be to defer the ballot automati= cally, and make it public that the reason is a late review. >>=20 >> Also, do some areas only request telechat reviews? In my experience in Ge= n-ART, most issues and fixes occur during Last Call reviews, so that the tel= echat review is often a formality. >>=20 >> On 06-Nov-19 08:17, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >>=20 >>>> Does every AD read all the drafts? I don't know. But changing the pro= cess to say one AD from each area would reduce the load. >>>=20 >>> Some divide it up. Pete & Barry had a split. If there was a big load, S= tephen would start from one end of the list and I'd start from the other. W= e both mostly wanted to 'read' them all though. >>=20 >> The word that stands out for me is "wanted". Similarly, it's because I *w= ant* to track the technology that I've been a Gen-ART reviewer for many year= s. But if (as people say every year at about this time) we really need to re= duce the AD workload to something more like part-time, some things have to c= hange. >>=20 >> It seems to me that the IESG itself can make such changes, since this is a= matter of procedures rather than our formal rules. It's too late for this y= ear, but maybe next year's NomCom could have an easier job. >>=20 >> Brian >>=20 >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 From nobody Tue Nov 5 19:14:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A44A7120826 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 19:14:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MFQR-FuBo7im; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 19:14:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3893A12003E; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 19:14:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050095.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Wed, 6 Nov 2019 01:22:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback] To: ietf@ietf.org References: <7E267F5B-0921-412F-B1A5-9A3E5096BD8F@mnot.net> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <3ede3c4a-2a4a-aae2-f12f-43a39b98ad36@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 01:22:51 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 06:22:56 -0000 On 11/5/19 10:08 PM, Terry Manderson wrote: > And this, for better or worse, is my opinion. The IETF needs to want to change. The days, as Mark describes, of having that technical hero is gone. It’s time now to trust directorate reviews, While I agree that we can't depend on having "heroes" in IESG, I also think that expecting directorates to do all of the detailed reviewing, without having to answer to anyone, will have the result of destroying what little quality control IETF has left. Keith From nobody Wed Nov 6 00:07:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71D47120C02 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 00:07:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jFrAYvAmtoXl for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 00:07:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x234.google.com (mail-lj1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4550120BFF for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 00:07:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id p18so1634288ljc.6 for ; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 00:07:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=R4T323lePMe/1csZYqm0UiunBnT4SUaO2r+5mBqeN4U=; b=nY6UOI2r+IRGUradr3neYalXyJJu0gHc0hQtLM8SjzSCqhIj64eXxAb125Z4yVB7Gv Hoz5i+kpfJt7+Zl06BBflq8xV6A9LG2wmlPHPCZH/39CX7Lmc3sJaXUJOeLG5i40X5FX L1aJykWCY8FOozgnA04yiJd97sqwvRB/3KXHPMJs/56j4vODfmRtHkh84E2TFaEZAfDz rW9GCoYbz87nnAKRZL7hxEi2QoZoJRm3pvlXIOvw8EfoB+qJKslqb9FbZmfSygop3I7m mfsIJ9tZX5JvcMkqW8ejtm7OQV0H1zEJMLa/onMpBGX4bX/YbtZ7ttRvzpquiaSnsXws FrHw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=R4T323lePMe/1csZYqm0UiunBnT4SUaO2r+5mBqeN4U=; b=Hb+Lf9fwemqoywq2VTtabp13EJity38BQIOAvVU4rGpV0Pe2qjYn5EDgW4Rj10AvRw 8YBiL/ap8E4QEYF03ovTO0JY5RfpttgMScZ5Tp7pC3duibxn9doe5CujfDTjX0+bT9EA PNVixIHqnf4fjJGIBIgbUlR46FUhNCHI1UZzwwoHrJMPX4xaPwu8Bx/PwECV69Ob5b11 s4OniafVNFM4paZj70stn4h8HYv/keYvyNf6/JoQv03H4MXeGiSdpbRaInCKqIxNxHU4 Q21tbqSYUMbqeEidg90SGd8Kmq1S1DwAAhAC/3VxqGfDbGtc8q21oCwN9PYV/6HtlEui o4Vg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVTZhapQJAUKJ5bm+bY71470bzPpf0Dre9KcgEj6PB2C7z21uKi RELVdcBHlIx7M5/+109XwntqGBZxADsx5A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzka2TEGFFJR3AVuXqs37NL5RHnTUx9BhIA7+fjPZZ5T+nHIZSsz2478NOmL7HRB2+SkASeMA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:387:: with SMTP id e7mr907056ljp.0.1573027640294; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 00:07:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:6b0:7:1:c96a:69e6:3f92:d046? ([2001:6b0:7:1:c96a:69e6:3f92:d046]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p16sm2582459ljj.12.2019.11.06.00.07.19 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 00:07:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback] To: ietf@ietf.org References: <7E267F5B-0921-412F-B1A5-9A3E5096BD8F@mnot.net> <35EB2608-880A-4BFF-B714-3AEBD6139FA1@akamai.com> From: Leif Johansson Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=leifj@mnt.se; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQGiBD7DfnwRBADpIpOw6bXfx2Yo3vac/j5WzVcWNZKuiYc4uuFnBYxH8zTA5cdwytuOYNte cX1yrPgmObfPVU0EFktdBMFgLE5TNRUMeJZTmAl3QYDm8N32SeSUEb6GPFsUTGgxsCW3GVAo q6DBopKqhR9HT0+crQakbc7XkS4FjeBWiXjuNf/IqwCgyoa2Qfq8UdjbcH+DRGzPnRTeqzEE ALIEsCzDp4HQqXqqNLCoExbgmCrEHvnqFmilCHJVnyuY8LXmcpq2uwJaiIdsTqLeQ8WrMxWg mZc6F9QSdLP6MVZT3v+5OqOZMUDsu4nGom3HH+tG238vMSEF+klGdrI0wdscrY+28Oshjhqj 4FZxCwdNU9RTU8xQ9IoObiEo1yOHBADK9a5GhkLT+d2cb48orETGtG7i//HOnstouw/TmEUX reZPtT6wpIdN9Jf3W80GA6A34VEGA/I+/5e+9nFvINpLvEF2ghJBH+sWwQ8EXpo0M/yir9oG eJI7gpOHRj5Mq9uqFG0wcamInuWgbMP1cefjXusHbHyDFKr7ydWSsZHqXrQdTGVpZiBKb2hh bnNzb24gPGxlaWZqQG1udC5zZT6IYAQTEQIAIAUCSnC8wwIbIwYLCQgHAwIEFQIIAwQWAgMB Ah4BAheAAAoJEPCcfBbWzGZ3x8MAnimIMTFOH4LLfp8bQnSPWm6BQyA6AKCk4S46++PpqtTM 0wIZ+kuYaBtky7kCDQQ+w36FEAgAr1zK1qIIXmoeEqFulgFi17FRpSibNwwge9bkG2+IO7MO m4Ih+f4CRkqaP5U5diiWb4nyQc/Yqzf3TTSE+CH0ghvDCwfZHrzUsVl9t57S2RFKaQhDUUw3 lz0TgKN66z1IRnQEARuz9PFd96pIhLaJBOn0e55Cu5qqJVwGpst3+I3jqT/cxjymRxPz2O6R 9k/ZOOiOGROZYAjNHKcdoeBr7OaIHcPRCi1R8MBKE4HOK1SwaVvs26Fd2enixIOBmyFTkrue 3VgaAd3zrJauD0qa/u5y2kGEyFFJwNsKnoX0aCmNNIG+aKvnSCWfba8bmYOAsbxS2lo4MKmu DM0rrVyLhwADBQf/VzM77aviZ3Ir7qXj0uV/62wyrg8/5flXl8XjuATewD+hTaux1lg5LgPU 9cokMHYHrTsnp79nhEB9qOpsQLX+npae7a27x3zyqLP0V7neyKy1ycuBI9KU9B3ivgSMRlKR 91GcmUpRnKiSnxPYNtq018mY72YYHCpfAh0OOUA88bxbYIuF5cv9dYyOBhNEkI8xB1VOWev1 CPkPb0DwDABHdOBq9e0hT3OUOaat2JPwCEHU2NTGsYFuZRysq8xnxFgHd00+h2OJZ50UYVpB jDxaCj5gvHHFFnmfCLD5VqjEJGi4k2znZHg67i2pw0f5BSq8fsfdUML35LzL/aaZPMzlg4hG BBgRAgAGBQI+w36FAAoJEPCcfBbWzGZ3djcAnAxF3084vKlsRNGcyj/rn5lA4Q+nAKCnjZYX snFG51wbu8OI88aj3LJE5w== Message-ID: <58204b28-a3a2-3b3f-2767-7729318a1eb2@mnt.se> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:07:18 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <35EB2608-880A-4BFF-B714-3AEBD6139FA1@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 08:07:24 -0000 On 2019-11-06 04:13, Salz, Rich wrote: >> Understand that while the IETF has a huge reputation, there are other standards bodies that are doing this better, and faster, and resulting in bigger improvements to technology. > > Serious question: please name them, so we can learn from them. > > openid foundation comes to mind for agility its hard to beat the cray^H^H^H^H blockchain identity people (I'm in no way biased against them) over at the distributed identity foundation Cheers Leif From nobody Wed Nov 6 02:34:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4202E120835 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 02:34:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=isode.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id npjIkH0oU1Wh for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 02:34:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from statler.isode.com (Statler.isode.com [62.232.206.189]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 033AF12080A for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 02:34:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1573036484; d=isode.com; s=june2016; i=@isode.com; bh=PPmauXnI7ZRjd0AhTUN5SBR+OjD3G9hWRSTAUh6Wapk=; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:Cc:MIME-Version: In-Reply-To:References:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description; b=gmcq3SXkIg9OOuB4dssj+c0/RQhXibQeWcOwhcctjHS9WOHsYHvaQNzBDdbKe8ak/6fL2N sGj0d0IQZr0tSPZUkXLVtEVpdliZ8rnuA5O+ai7V49GmFqK9DnuMWkHrDHMGmitE9+O2zR vp7Uy5BNPokE5Yi+iDuRrz+QTDHsKn0=; Received: from [192.168.0.8] (cpc121086-nmal24-2-0-cust54.19-2.cable.virginm.net [77.97.145.55]) by statler.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPSA id ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 10:34:43 +0000 Subject: Quality of Directorate reviews To: Michael Richardson , ietf References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> From: Alexey Melnikov Autocrypt: addr=alexey.melnikov@isode.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFWQBiQBCADFmiucA1/FCqO+LUOm/Xf2+NpPuSbPcLAWd0x1K1V4F1WTPScSolQ/u0y8 faozrF3uQXZxInvmLJOALfOqm4lfg8CN2BqAxMrlCqka1Ku8UJ9A6kOGaZWlBKUmiIjVng9D 91k8MRare9dE5b0Yj33mUO/ifhC+np0H7CXpB6E2IzvAUkgWCPlXEVO6ffV1Xr+J/UeArqoF Fj1RoMN+Kc701e3GzKHpuryng66Jx9+k7daOSgWNF1zOU1JCJKIZ1uHIlzro1y0KtvWTwwM1 331q72HWESG0NatDnu1QotxxFHLDQFsHZ59A5yvIdyeZvjuEr9paorNVIk7Esg4THaljABEB AAHNK0FsZXhleSBNZWxuaWtvdiA8YWxleGV5Lm1lbG5pa292QGlzb2RlLmNvbT7CwHkEEwEI ACMFAlWQBiQCGw8HCwkIBwMCAQYVCAIJCgsEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBdp82zsCM7iDACB/4q EiLSBhpjDJ+pm1f6IXQvtTW3YGrca0kidZ0yX/qn30bkRtFsjXJVOspKENzBhZCI5bX/Si0I qKkR0DqnuJqchVzKXl25HfMvA2w2KRr8VFLFWMnCB4/jnaMWWQ4EV1MqbyFXl3m0LwZ1U4rd EQLvzPTNd8tqyy093rN53jTl0FmBAEHYzbUHsYB6wx8gqJBFkIGEgPHftZboJ/8ywo983YBQ /8Brb8awV3PeonmHc7W9QMKoN37U9VLbXOvAZVDvJ4QI1P/P3Uad1tkkeyuCcluuPe2M7CjK HF8zQHYGSCz70NY+MhbfhgT5WMjPuW5ls+Q1yES257+lmRkx3eyT Message-ID: <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 10:34:42 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.1.1 In-Reply-To: <26819.1572990657@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 10:34:46 -0000 Hi Michael, On 05/11/2019 21:50, Michael Richardson wrote: >=20 > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > If we want the IESG job to be more reasonably sized, we have to take > > work away from the ADs. As far as I can see, that means taking away > > their duty of acting as final reviewers. I don't want to name names > > because I don't think the ADs are to be blamed individually, but som= e > > of them spend *enormous* effort on detailed reviews. >=20 > +1 >=20 > I think that there is a lack of trust by ADs of the various directorates. Other ADs have commented on this, but I think I need to repeat what they said and expand on it. Results are vary varied. Some are quite good (e.g. Gen-Art) and others really depend on reviewer. ADs responsible for Directorates are faces with the choice of firing half of their Directorates (which has some rather unfortunate consequences) and/or raise the bar on who should be allowed to join. We already struggle to recruit people at all levels of our organization. Best Regards, Alexey From nobody Wed Nov 6 03:03:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 471E012085F for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 03:03:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BoeWVSSxHFPM for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 03:03:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x835.google.com (mail-qt1-x835.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::835]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9CBB1200C7 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 03:03:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x835.google.com with SMTP id h2so19987051qto.1 for ; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 03:03:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=0HwpLDO2CTXL3FA993J3pr0xUC9cnfmb6XNuHSKfvgU=; b=QPBGmqdoXFzzLDR8FVAAHaYJye/lLTH97pdwaMJ7XMPQTRJzN8/CU1hRUiDFV8ROxQ ikfX0uJo+CjGOOvxQM7nGFA22gPlSDEK5oAbBRyuSvs4ZKUig8OpRA1A/unoUSIJ1H+9 fIUcSc5rE0WAcHSIsaCooug9vldJcd+zDJoFoPXgfEeZyhy+aZtzmVEwzGLEgx8syoPN 9xCgazxGcOcVIedfOHzNCj69PyShUrg4MkE1hLQfQlNKo+GeI5STaD0brcXH6/EnmlPw SL6FB7vqUxpDedQcZ6153FXanOWhz1r1woWpsIQVIYUZuWImQMRkS4B09b8EEsvxS06N QVvg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=0HwpLDO2CTXL3FA993J3pr0xUC9cnfmb6XNuHSKfvgU=; b=Wn+nTZsq0SwkNjFDDP90kROJ9cMDx5yeqEVb5xP1/ry6+XHQ1ubi2ptZp55Al7Zyf7 RK2BYh4vbX5vfwAMg2Dw2YkSi39MjvKzICgS3Nc4Oax7b+zaBlKsRJ+Wu9fgK6Qsj0Vc 30k2Vlw+EYq+MacNimWuX5zg91yn+GZaEj7EUFWAxcUCx98r/Kqh5Gv65hJjEsuhq35V E368KWbbGLi1gFf1YrRwSOcZyvFrNQbeEVvOes/EhytmKdDIGquHeU0xrBS+G5cVlHfQ nIeB4g89D6iQuCD6m8Zau+/DK9/3UVPAwsVNJv2OaWkQYgY3EwoCLwptTmHCFsOscjeC hzpQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUQN2ySwq3AtzXQfBKX9TYCS8ZXc9VmwAFR77nBDLzQo2Sfks1U CNfERqAqEjZphkQHRTI3NlY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxuoqAneeUjdyQhqOGvTM0RQTCac8TD/QyPCLOq9xI6B74MnDYIO/e6zokRWefgxsnbogG+ww== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:27a2:: with SMTP id w31mr1749420qtw.227.1573038183926; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 03:03:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:18f:801:5225:c23:1fd5:e1a2:3b67? ([2601:18f:801:5225:c23:1fd5:e1a2:3b67]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p54sm16658664qta.39.2019.11.06.03.03.02 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 03:03:03 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews From: Ralph Droms In-Reply-To: <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 06:03:01 -0500 Cc: Michael Richardson , ietf Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> To: Alexey Melnikov X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 11:03:06 -0000 > On Nov 6, 2019, at 5:34 AM, Alexey Melnikov = wrote: >=20 > Hi Michael, >=20 > On 05/11/2019 21:50, Michael Richardson wrote: >>=20 >> Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> If we want the IESG job to be more reasonably sized, we have to take >>> work away from the ADs. As far as I can see, that means taking away >>> their duty of acting as final reviewers. I don't want to name names >>> because I don't think the ADs are to be blamed individually, but = some >>> of them spend *enormous* effort on detailed reviews. >>=20 >> +1 >>=20 >> I think that there is a lack of trust by ADs of the various = directorates. >=20 > Other ADs have commented on this, but I think I need to repeat what = they > said and expand on it. >=20 > Results are vary varied. Some are quite good (e.g. Gen-Art) and others > really depend on reviewer. ADs responsible for Directorates are faces > with the choice of firing half of their Directorates (which has some > rather unfortunate consequences) and/or raise the bar on who should be > allowed to join. We already struggle to recruit people at all levels = of > our organization. >=20 > Best Regards, > Alexey We shouldn't be depending on last-minute quality checks to maintain the = quality of our output. Working groups should be producing documents = that are ready to publish, and develop trust that their documents are = high quality. - Ralph >=20 From nobody Wed Nov 6 03:42:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 649AA12086B for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 03:42:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=b9Oh0epW; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=bJYUxSXJ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yprPqDGuNc5s for ; 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Wed, 6 Nov 2019 11:42:19 +0000 From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" To: Ralph Droms , Alexey Melnikov CC: Michael Richardson , ietf Subject: RE: Quality of Directorate reviews Thread-Topic: Quality of Directorate reviews Thread-Index: AQHVlI3pvKbdAx2zQ0m3a6BfpwOeGqd9+maAgAAHgeA= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 11:42:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=rwilton@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [173.38.220.45] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 330947a7-c330-4131-9e72-08d762ae61a0 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB3952: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 330947a7-c330-4131-9e72-08d762ae61a0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Nov 2019 11:42:19.4804 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: I+kFrJLEBvZBvyXj1AU5Ens3pzBbjPNaRTRFw5e5Q6b1b/vO0PiH0lHV3zuphVCcUR7f87kbmLsqbYx8V/JClA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB3952 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.13, xch-rcd-003.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-8.cisco.com Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 11:42:27 -0000 Perhaps RFCs could list (within the document) who reviewed/approved them, a= nd in which role/capacity the review had been performed. This could serve two purposes: - some minimal reward for those individuals taking the time to review the = document, - encouragement for the reviewers to ensure that an adequate review has be= en performed based on the role/capacity in which they are acting.=20 Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: ietf On Behalf Of Ralph Droms > Sent: 06 November 2019 11:03 > To: Alexey Melnikov > Cc: Michael Richardson ; ietf > Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews >=20 >=20 >=20 > > On Nov 6, 2019, at 5:34 AM, Alexey Melnikov > wrote: > > > > Hi Michael, > > > > On 05/11/2019 21:50, Michael Richardson wrote: > >> > >> Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>> If we want the IESG job to be more reasonably sized, we have to take > >>> work away from the ADs. As far as I can see, that means taking away > >>> their duty of acting as final reviewers. I don't want to name names > >>> because I don't think the ADs are to be blamed individually, but > >>> some of them spend *enormous* effort on detailed reviews. > >> > >> +1 > >> > >> I think that there is a lack of trust by ADs of the various > directorates. > > > > Other ADs have commented on this, but I think I need to repeat what > > they said and expand on it. > > > > Results are vary varied. Some are quite good (e.g. Gen-Art) and others > > really depend on reviewer. ADs responsible for Directorates are faces > > with the choice of firing half of their Directorates (which has some > > rather unfortunate consequences) and/or raise the bar on who should be > > allowed to join. We already struggle to recruit people at all levels > > of our organization. > > > > Best Regards, > > Alexey >=20 > We shouldn't be depending on last-minute quality checks to maintain the > quality of our output. Working groups should be producing documents that > are ready to publish, and develop trust that their documents are high > quality. >=20 > - Ralph >=20 > > From nobody Wed Nov 6 03:48:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DB47120870 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 03:48:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=isode.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0V0T1B3wn6RY for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 03:48:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from waldorf.isode.com (waldorf.isode.com [62.232.206.188]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F8C9120869 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 03:48:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1573040882; d=isode.com; s=june2016; i=@isode.com; bh=qEbxt2JK4y36epnuoqZLEuTq9hL7IQA3T7G1udSXR7c=; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:Cc:MIME-Version: In-Reply-To:References:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description; b=wgiZ7DicG1TWgTUor/YOk7sywBjePvCIJiUOMnwKWeFQIfR9RQWXOnXpa9C2I1iewDaXPI BwgSYtXubmfazIq88xZy2hO1qrWCWDHpKRoz+WBW+xlIRf1tKdu6+luZ9AZKyVHDbUEUi5 olMRvM4c80exCV4V9Vth2AJ9yIn/XP4=; Received: from [172.20.1.215] (dhcp-215.isode.net [172.20.1.215]) by waldorf.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPSA id ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 11:48:02 +0000 Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , Ralph Droms Cc: Michael Richardson , ietf References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> From: Alexey Melnikov Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 11:46:44 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 11:48:05 -0000 On 06/11/2019 11:42, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: > Perhaps RFCs could list (within the document) who reviewed/approved them, and in which role/capacity the review had been performed. > > This could serve two purposes: > - some minimal reward for those individuals taking the time to review the document, > - encouragement for the reviewers to ensure that an adequate review has been performed based on the role/capacity in which they are acting. I think acknowledging people is generally a good idea. I would be in favour of always acknowledging directorate reviews, shepherds and possibly ADs in documents. > Rob > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ietf On Behalf Of Ralph Droms >> Sent: 06 November 2019 11:03 >> To: Alexey Melnikov >> Cc: Michael Richardson ; ietf >> Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews >> >> >> >>> On Nov 6, 2019, at 5:34 AM, Alexey Melnikov >> wrote: >>> Hi Michael, >>> >>> On 05/11/2019 21:50, Michael Richardson wrote: >>>> Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>> If we want the IESG job to be more reasonably sized, we have to take >>>>> work away from the ADs. As far as I can see, that means taking away >>>>> their duty of acting as final reviewers. I don't want to name names >>>>> because I don't think the ADs are to be blamed individually, but >>>>> some of them spend *enormous* effort on detailed reviews. >>>> +1 >>>> >>>> I think that there is a lack of trust by ADs of the various >> directorates. >>> Other ADs have commented on this, but I think I need to repeat what >>> they said and expand on it. >>> >>> Results are vary varied. Some are quite good (e.g. Gen-Art) and others >>> really depend on reviewer. ADs responsible for Directorates are faces >>> with the choice of firing half of their Directorates (which has some >>> rather unfortunate consequences) and/or raise the bar on who should be >>> allowed to join. We already struggle to recruit people at all levels >>> of our organization. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Alexey >> We shouldn't be depending on last-minute quality checks to maintain the >> quality of our output. Working groups should be producing documents that >> are ready to publish, and develop trust that their documents are high >> quality. >> >> - Ralph >> From nobody Wed Nov 6 05:01:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F258120874 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 05:01:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s0iMWi9UyTgR for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 05:01:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32c.google.com (mail-wm1-x32c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20C88120878 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 05:01:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id t26so3220517wmi.4 for ; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 05:01:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=N7RgpC1zJzV2OQSwAJ2b1BQvbn3aT7M/JL12eqjJ+7s=; b=ZMwv3AGqHs+SbkF76zZu3656WD0Y5K1brTgq8PXNnPW+sMsCcRNkv94lb+UhbLKgig H2k2/wm7g2nLuuExXRoMIUKgB12A0iRnfb2sEVYesCahSVEYDSc/NwEYQINwmrHXzMK0 dx2h0RoqVmwqnIQPT6rPjzlbiQcZk5n/fMiWhmlwEvWxb66HX7G0pCGYnM7/92hqyYmF 7yDwqU36AU2sxKVB4sWeIfUQfdmuep/Mu9fotjGGUa6mTv1+Xc7VK7TqE+bBVuM+POZj KlOJt43LWRMB9PfNvXupfHMmXHZNvfCJLj3xvkCjfBCrVq/8FUCbt8E6BvJWhMPW0IMQ jVYg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=N7RgpC1zJzV2OQSwAJ2b1BQvbn3aT7M/JL12eqjJ+7s=; b=iOL7gtst3E4MQXhox12swAVxhhd7WDFK7UJuye/NZS46YrrE3qy3dBTDXC8mLYmpaC oe7aU64mxx+2wZSGfr6U+0pxwmGPEFY/OhI1qCoYAMkiOqWosQnhV82fHN/KJd4wbwH5 3qfYlmLrKBuojuH5R8MfEuD3YqGderJYNxUeL3yJ5vhiN4rZeuPOcLZjPtADiiGLwx/0 t1Gs3+2yQW4cqHMCQbmrlHL0aPSV81kL4SSZOpSVJP/m5Vs1mAB/TQKEzMKdYItFXEnp 1ihojigHvp6wgFg3Bt3/wL1v1iNgi/KTKE+Fx4I36tcCn+3ROrFrAnec973JGCM299lh V9nw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUF0JLqCQA5DPu76YCPBLjK44GAuLCu24jBU2hV2jsBh3blxrD5 +slu1zHaZbPKysUNN3CL3mA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwp/P92odMhFWc3QSkSDFp9JR/TiWQxT6pzMXMie9s1JYX6Rtz4jPjpMOSQq/cWtjNv1OO9Sw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:2046:: with SMTP id p6mr2494033wmg.165.1573045299504; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 05:01:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from appleton.fritz.box ([62.3.64.16]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j11sm19895934wrq.26.2019.11.06.05.01.38 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 05:01:38 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews From: Stewart Bryant In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 13:01:37 +0000 Cc: Ralph Droms , Alexey Melnikov , Michael Richardson , ietf Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3601.0.10) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 13:01:43 -0000 That is a good idea. I would also like to see a statement from the responsible AD that they = have reviewed the document in detail and believe that it is fully ready = to go to for review by people other than the WG and their own = directorate. In some cases I really wonder it a draft has been read end = to end by anyone before it is passed on for review by the wider = community.=20 - Stewart =20 > On 6 Nov 2019, at 11:42, Rob Wilton (rwilton) = wrote: >=20 > Perhaps RFCs could list (within the document) who reviewed/approved = them, and in which role/capacity the review had been performed. >=20 > This could serve two purposes: > - some minimal reward for those individuals taking the time to review = the document, > - encouragement for the reviewers to ensure that an adequate review = has been performed based on the role/capacity in which they are acting.=20= >=20 > Rob >=20 >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ietf On Behalf Of Ralph Droms >> Sent: 06 November 2019 11:03 >> To: Alexey Melnikov >> Cc: Michael Richardson ; ietf >> Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Nov 6, 2019, at 5:34 AM, Alexey Melnikov = >> wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Michael, >>>=20 >>> On 05/11/2019 21:50, Michael Richardson wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>> If we want the IESG job to be more reasonably sized, we have to = take >>>>> work away from the ADs. As far as I can see, that means taking = away >>>>> their duty of acting as final reviewers. I don't want to name = names >>>>> because I don't think the ADs are to be blamed individually, but >>>>> some of them spend *enormous* effort on detailed reviews. >>>>=20 >>>> +1 >>>>=20 >>>> I think that there is a lack of trust by ADs of the various >> directorates. >>>=20 >>> Other ADs have commented on this, but I think I need to repeat what >>> they said and expand on it. >>>=20 >>> Results are vary varied. Some are quite good (e.g. Gen-Art) and = others >>> really depend on reviewer. ADs responsible for Directorates are = faces >>> with the choice of firing half of their Directorates (which has some >>> rather unfortunate consequences) and/or raise the bar on who should = be >>> allowed to join. We already struggle to recruit people at all levels >>> of our organization. >>>=20 >>> Best Regards, >>> Alexey >>=20 >> We shouldn't be depending on last-minute quality checks to maintain = the >> quality of our output. Working groups should be producing documents = that >> are ready to publish, and develop trust that their documents are high >> quality. >>=20 >> - Ralph >>=20 >>>=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Nov 6 05:28:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EABF112087E for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 05:28:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YXuYSS2BlTLs for ; 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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 13:28:33 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id xA6DMCIv022199; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 05:28:32 -0800 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.31]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2w17s8f1yw-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 05:28:31 -0800 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 08:28:31 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.005; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 08:28:30 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Leif Johansson , "ietf@ietf.org" Subject: Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback] Thread-Topic: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback] Thread-Index: AQHVlCwgx2FNRIWjFUeNXgzfbQQDx6d9vbCAgAAMugD//62xgIAApcgAgAAF7AA= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 13:28:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7E267F5B-0921-412F-B1A5-9A3E5096BD8F@mnot.net> <35EB2608-880A-4BFF-B714-3AEBD6139FA1@akamai.com> <58204b28-a3a2-3b3f-2767-7729318a1eb2@mnt.se> In-Reply-To: <58204b28-a3a2-3b3f-2767-7729318a1eb2@mnt.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1f.0.191103 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.34.165] Content-Type: text/plain; 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Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:38:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:38:07 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Wouters To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" cc: ietf Subject: RE: Quality of Directorate reviews In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 14:38:17 -0000 On Wed, 6 Nov 2019, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: > Perhaps RFCs could list (within the document) who reviewed/approved them, and in which role/capacity the review had been performed. > > This could serve two purposes: > - some minimal reward for those individuals taking the time to review the document, > - encouragement for the reviewers to ensure that an adequate review has been performed based on the role/capacity in which they are acting. I think I like this idea, but also, speaking for myself I would refuse to review a few more documents of things that are too far out of my area of expertise (which might be a good or bad thing, depending on whether anyone else steps up) Paul From nobody Wed Nov 6 06:46:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE3701208AE for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 06:46:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VPybl5YY9Cgu for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 06:46:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8DAE1200F9 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 06:45:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.102] (p548DC893.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.200.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 477TqV1cJ3zybw; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 15:45:58 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 15:45:57 +0100 Cc: Alexey Melnikov , Michael Richardson , ietf X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 594744356.0458471-eed26cbe173eae3267e52e8d1e3e0c10 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9C797CFF-6120-4783-8D2F-098D3F0E0A7F@tzi.org> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> To: Ralph Droms X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 14:46:02 -0000 On Nov 6, 2019, at 12:03, Ralph Droms wrote: >=20 > We shouldn't be depending on last-minute quality checks to maintain = the quality of our output. Working groups should be producing documents = that are ready to publish, and develop trust that their documents are = high quality. Yes. But please do keep in mind that after having worked a couple of years on = a document, the WG might no longer see things that a fresh look will = uncover. I think getting that fresh look is one of the great features = of the multi-step review process we have. Also, there is the simple = fact of serendipity! (Which is not very structured, and someone = schooled in quality processes will hate, but creating quality is not = really a controlled process anyway=E2=80=A6) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Nov 6 06:50:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 398FE120120 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 06:50:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qip5kqXTSnMz for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 06:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x731.google.com (mail-qk1-x731.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::731]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEE33120128 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 06:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x731.google.com with SMTP id e187so12076652qkf.4 for ; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 06:50:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=HBve7aTflC3HJuWRHwN+i2L++27aKBhLwisDpTwiq+4=; b=RSZvsML0sz3EwaHK2fU9SuM4bkhWAh889iG6R7Ed94V0M1bafYyXsw8Q+DUkyIOXgY mVShtuXzyo3E+PzIh3zPTZjMW+3gqhSPZrtdcm52iW+6WqZ5yTMsLscrpjF88PDDaMh1 V/tUmxaslkzUYGA4LWSZXC5vhMe3vlSH8CR977/TYzK8GyumrfixcQe107klceqRarCk ztvOpTMQXDFmTjk38aRj8WTFsxdoVn6X2P9fhRwqL61oT39Dd7CIdazIxjpyAUxSp1mH /kVtT3q/AftoN8qMq7piwzAjvQAcsLUAi6Jceb3FRgQhucNPsxgCmOnPFuFBVUrT58w0 Dn9g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=HBve7aTflC3HJuWRHwN+i2L++27aKBhLwisDpTwiq+4=; b=Q0RHn5rIb9Vl+yT3eeqaI4BZbVNzbDETurGSvg8zfx3fvXwBEXZ0bHu5xvtuNfW4bH ZjGn+wMyk7xLmjgCmrkAKeDp/HLU9yxgbOTHhVXr+cieScW6AbZxA/sFZ5gcwrYSq4LH S3jOfzwfSQl4UBQUXi8f8D3cc0T7DHcfO2u4yquTW6VKOKfWntIU16chsESCLK0qXY9J BP7f2zuXuFyEQlYb1Fnv1jy/7fc/q9SYs8skHxpH9j0/OP7y/EKC55a59ciNDu3xpA/O eDWdS9h2ZEv/t/o3tbuCiDvXDKktgBeRJ44ztn0Y4hKETn7AyC6nUSwvQ7BvC9NyECfH 4fFA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWq3p0h2a8pyA3FgBg+x3Kw6uVF366DofhybYOyJ4LQgdgisxom NbPb6OY8Ae8w2D6kglcU12o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyIDWFRfOW9/re4ck1UgTtLIn4T91ItC2/qzRaZjpw3dS8ND7cBPqz3AyBONjssgYuFI4jK9Q== X-Received: by 2002:ae9:f003:: with SMTP id l3mr2345055qkg.331.1573051825760; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 06:50:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2620::1004:4:e43e:7bd5:fae9:4128? ([2620:0:1004:4:e43e:7bd5:fae9:4128]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n55sm13150257qta.24.2019.11.06.06.50.24 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 06:50:25 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews From: Ralph Droms In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:50:24 -0500 Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , Alexey Melnikov , Michael Richardson , ietf Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <13F07515-F218-44D4-A334-AC68AA72A423@gmail.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> To: Stewart Bryant X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 14:50:31 -0000 > On Nov 6, 2019, at 8:01 AM, Stewart Bryant = wrote: >=20 > That is a good idea. >=20 > I would also like to see a statement from the responsible AD that they = have reviewed the document in detail and believe that it is fully ready = to go to for review by people other than the WG and their own = directorate. In some cases I really wonder it a draft has been read end = to end by anyone before it is passed on for review by the wider = community.=20 I would support this idea if you s/responsible AD/WG chairs/. The first = point of responsibility here is to get *uniformly* high-quality docs out = of working groups. It's been a while since I was an AD, but I recall a = wide variability in the quality of docs coming out of WGs. Many docs = were ready for review and required little or no feedback from my AD = review. But there were enough docs that required more extensive = revision that a significant amount of my time was spent on managing = those documents. Perhaps part of the problem is insufficient negative consequences when a = WG forwards docs to the IESG that aren't ready? =20 - Ralph >=20 > - Stewart >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 6 Nov 2019, at 11:42, Rob Wilton (rwilton) = wrote: >>=20 >> Perhaps RFCs could list (within the document) who reviewed/approved = them, and in which role/capacity the review had been performed. >>=20 >> This could serve two purposes: >> - some minimal reward for those individuals taking the time to review = the document, >> - encouragement for the reviewers to ensure that an adequate review = has been performed based on the role/capacity in which they are acting.=20= >>=20 >> Rob >>=20 >>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: ietf On Behalf Of Ralph Droms >>> Sent: 06 November 2019 11:03 >>> To: Alexey Melnikov >>> Cc: Michael Richardson ; ietf >>> Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Nov 6, 2019, at 5:34 AM, Alexey Melnikov = >>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Michael, >>>>=20 >>>> On 05/11/2019 21:50, Michael Richardson wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>>> If we want the IESG job to be more reasonably sized, we have to = take >>>>>> work away from the ADs. As far as I can see, that means taking = away >>>>>> their duty of acting as final reviewers. I don't want to name = names >>>>>> because I don't think the ADs are to be blamed individually, but >>>>>> some of them spend *enormous* effort on detailed reviews. >>>>>=20 >>>>> +1 >>>>>=20 >>>>> I think that there is a lack of trust by ADs of the various >>> directorates. >>>>=20 >>>> Other ADs have commented on this, but I think I need to repeat what >>>> they said and expand on it. >>>>=20 >>>> Results are vary varied. Some are quite good (e.g. Gen-Art) and = others >>>> really depend on reviewer. ADs responsible for Directorates are = faces >>>> with the choice of firing half of their Directorates (which has = some >>>> rather unfortunate consequences) and/or raise the bar on who should = be >>>> allowed to join. We already struggle to recruit people at all = levels >>>> of our organization. >>>>=20 >>>> Best Regards, >>>> Alexey >>>=20 >>> We shouldn't be depending on last-minute quality checks to maintain = the >>> quality of our output. Working groups should be producing documents = that >>> are ready to publish, and develop trust that their documents are = high >>> quality. >>>=20 >>> - Ralph >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Nov 6 06:52:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F055120128 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 06:52:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nHYQqAeUPlbq for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 06:52:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBB32120120 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 06:52:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 369C55AB; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:52:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 09:52:37 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=5MoK05+4TZSiy4BtTGWV3BP49sLKOxEZ6isMCB2Tj AA=; b=BPCFmBOjr8LVx1PSkLKel9HbUE1oBFsXyJjwz0IzGCxDqMDXeijQSiAXP 2K0U9Sb1jqTlFr9PFp3bqaqAENCB45P8u2+SltOj7MH6QkmcfBSs3N7he2VDxcFc cFkOaBxooN0OiUzQwdbd2r0RiVUI+qLAzYCNrpYIrbVRY9xecGmJzQggdZzu05wE MIF6k/XF/kjh7mF9GG1VazDegk6MDP2ZkXB3se9sfPxF1tlYxbUg6uUxZUjPc9G2 Lb0ln6YIERN3Z8JmEOD752VfOvlQm1ZxX3dcG6mxxYuNe0Li/XbaB1Pl1QmiaZ8Y VrGkE0+Wuy+BbRCnnkURakPas8GYA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedruddujedgjeduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrud ehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghr vghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 4A51980061; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:52:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <7d7b2541-c5b2-dbfc-e503-36fffc6fabeb@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:52:34 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 14:52:40 -0000 On 11/6/19 6:03 AM, Ralph Droms wrote: > We shouldn't be depending on last-minute quality checks to maintain the quality of our output. Working groups should be producing documents that are ready to publish, and develop trust that their documents are high quality. As long as working groups are as siloed as they are, this is unlikely any WG that affects interests that are outside of its narrow scope.   And it's very dangerous to assume that WGs are competent to produce high quality work in isolation at least with our current processes.   Though I'd certainly be in favor of some kind of explicit extra-WG review earlier in a WG's or document's lifespan. Keith From nobody Wed Nov 6 06:55:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB4B9120128; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 06:55:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lOCIjj_Bv2Nh; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 06:55:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x729.google.com (mail-qk1-x729.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::729]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECEB2120D1E; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 06:55:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x729.google.com with SMTP id i19so15705435qki.2; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 06:55:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=kpegMYgNu5Ex/vSLB87Ujq7YB77PnB19QkSIA218T28=; b=ts3NK6de/cphrBfs3QVz4LAFpA7zF4zFNrxRkXlkzjZ0JPOelrNgmG2RrFUW1Jv8Yj X272H5On0n/ceD5i6UvQFonKfkrnTNwxbSSd+QXRUpjgU17U14MBTQbhdhYvrB4QHnBj ENLGtad3S6MDx0Sl3NoFMDp+gCH2VpQY4rqJEh0B4LOOooBUPSFZTIfnPEzpDCGqUFMQ 7dVIVsw5uCKiFjUBlY1VmPPNUCnfI/kJQAbZz8JhIHc03j95ZILdPGE/8s9O6QiLmyEb Wm0XRGCbw0tOQ4yQPia3gxtNww9UXW84R7D/+mbtHOh1AERTMc7bXcxNLdUHwWL+uW34 xDxA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=kpegMYgNu5Ex/vSLB87Ujq7YB77PnB19QkSIA218T28=; b=jsQUzdboZgS6nfLXcCk8UU4Svdfars2In2g2AdjQJs8jei4s0CLQiD0iTv2iECrgk6 LQCJ8d6R21daIZsNTJgkXhRbULRudMIoLgdww5frxbYDO9rp51dfS7inPKgrn5pXHm+n iVJkr7AJWqIuqUEVVssGdPwpxokO3h+NekE4uA1rWAI8SCTX1HnkyOU0FxzR3zenS3t4 rK3IkQz19wE7M+wF0FttrEzN93KUVHG0LJHqHsvgo368sL7Jmfs+6myYaVsXoxS3ZMXI SVGoJvS9MiZC+Jgmyq8kLSWR/xaNW+UL28gAEQ5MJNZS9UCrADIiXAY7awUDdN4ljKOv 0ZJA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUQw08cvatALM9xiafsMCnl4pK2v4NMMnNinqmV8cIf4K7ISwLO 0V7tMe3/kW8W7f6+qEociUk5MQuF X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzCj1hbW0603cIRKk2QGOsvoMo3K0F02GJfIP1m3t2G0NxNmrt6PxCmGkSZyXnGToQ80sWe3g== X-Received: by 2002:a37:4787:: with SMTP id u129mr2243245qka.294.1573052112746; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 06:55:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.19.35.214] ([2001:4878:a048:3000:c933:9ba6:e27c:dad7]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f21sm12025634qte.36.2019.11.06.06.55.11 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 06:55:11 -0800 (PST) From: "Aaron Falk" To: "IRTF Discuss" , "IETF WG Chairs" , "IETF Discussion" , 106attendees@ietf.org Subject: CFP: Request for Conversation (HotRFC) lightning talks @ IETF-106 Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 09:55:10 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13r5655) Message-ID: <105DCBEA-EC32-44A5-A48C-985697FB9049@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_3F7B1DD1-93F2-416A-B07D-A4BAA3B9249F_=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 14:55:25 -0000 --=_MailMate_3F7B1DD1-93F2-416A-B07D-A4BAA3B9249F_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed; markup=markdown Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit *Do you have an idea, problem space, or proposal that IETFers should hear about? Do you want to propose IETF work but aren’t sure if your idea is ready or who will be interested?* Agenda requests are now being accepted for the Request for Conversation (HotRFC) lightning talk session. Presenters will get 4 minutes and a few slides to make their case for collaboration. Interested folks can continue the discussion afterwards and over the week. Goals include encouraging brainstorming conversations, helping new work ideas to find co-collaborators, raising awareness of relevant work going on elsewhere, and promote BarBoFs. The session will be Sunday, Nov 17, 6-8pm (starting 1 hour after the welcome reception begins). Request a slot by sending a short abstract to hotrfc@ietf.org. See https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/106/hotrfc/ for more details. Scheduled talks are listed in the [HotRFC agenda page](https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/agenda-106-hotrfc/). --=_MailMate_3F7B1DD1-93F2-416A-B07D-A4BAA3B9249F_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Do you have an idea, problem space, or proposal that = IETFers should hear about?
Do you want to propose IETF work but aren=E2=80=99t sure if your idea is = ready or who will be interested?

Agenda requests are now being accepted for the Request fo= r Conversation (HotRFC) lightning talk session. Presenters will get 4 min= utes and a few slides to make their case for collaboration. Interested fo= lks can continue the discussion afterwards and over the week. Goals inclu= de encouraging brainstorming conversations, helping new work ideas to fin= d co-collaborators, raising awareness of relevant work going on elsewhere= , and promote BarBoFs.

The session will be Sunday, Nov 17, 6-8pm (starting 1 hou= r after the welcome reception begins).

Request a slot by sending a short abstract to hotrfc@ietf= =2Eorg. See https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/106/hotrfc/ f= or more details. Scheduled talks are listed in the HotRFC= agenda page.

--=_MailMate_3F7B1DD1-93F2-416A-B07D-A4BAA3B9249F_=-- From nobody Wed Nov 6 07:19:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486F7120869 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 07:19:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IguGXiezgUnk for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 07:19:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82c.google.com (mail-qt1-x82c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 439CF120B1D for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 07:19:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82c.google.com with SMTP id y10so27295888qto.3 for ; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 07:19:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=sPgrZiPrzhYz4UKSw5g42yrbi13v/Dst2ZSCd3ebus4=; b=lkLFl+fq10uVV+maRTzM/GhpwsInvZioPw8V/MsQ26tax2a3qTbfI/cPXuDizYe7vz 8Sc5h9b1gv0BN/DOBQiHK4VBRB2sQQQVK+gcv315TPdDE50n32MCk0caY2qaiZYu0t8K plBEsAA6N8ytF6T00o3zQrJpgrzXKkw+aq92MHjW8F/IcOaYkFCkHLLZTqkTSdsz0EFZ z3k1b1rIo07XA3Ureiqaf+fTbd/g5Trdc8SeO4YMQdBVfLXyHgF+c2xBV9BWRnI8YpWS yVZfjHDptVXI2lhgXCsmw5Xk/owthD0LUse5JlZID5fk2jY2C4+hULdCCMUgKgpnAmZY AhXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=sPgrZiPrzhYz4UKSw5g42yrbi13v/Dst2ZSCd3ebus4=; b=ooaGhkhIXCCpiy33yemlXLdaDu5ac425cS98Nv4v9Pr+49yvEl2apQQC6O42qQDsva r+wHZ7DqZ3dkLnzRlgOnc0/phHlEQT/u9a/sFm9L8vtCoTO/qMCTntSQ/I+MS/Rx5HZM W2lHUeGJ6hwYn3q/hXmTFhmspJpDse7eafPDIK3AOR1xMMwBX/cEBUYyDgyGDMd/Ytia 3BaGjdJ6SrWecUplZa1sEdNMkREk3naSCQmmGVqoyC2ctcqM2LsZ1DKZVuH23qaa97mZ tQRJ+cQLPHzcamVXmotCt5yUWxdW0XkhqjNRVBvQqhvUdebtJXICkZuYL05Wgs2em54W 2WkQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWcYrHYjQ5Fwi2m3rloaGWfIa9r42YcCZAqzzqjGLFoM3Dr7WWH EQHJAlnQJbJOQF562bozg8RWVHMp X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqziGUhuxT4xiCD6HB24FGms+5nd0gM9a7mBkA6Stz2pBwvcpu62rpf171eU3vQwRLnJeGND8g== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5452:: with SMTP id d18mr2847801qtq.385.1573053589379; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 07:19:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2620::1004:4:e43e:7bd5:fae9:4128? ([2620:0:1004:4:e43e:7bd5:fae9:4128]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i75sm12847501qke.22.2019.11.06.07.19.48 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 07:19:48 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews From: Ralph Droms In-Reply-To: <7d7b2541-c5b2-dbfc-e503-36fffc6fabeb@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 10:19:48 -0500 Cc: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2FBA1517-52B8-478B-95E4-ABDAF8C4A16C@gmail.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <7d7b2541-c5b2-dbfc-e503-36fffc6fabeb@network-heretics.com> To: Keith Moore X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 15:19:52 -0000 > On Nov 6, 2019, at 9:52 AM, Keith Moore = wrote: >=20 > On 11/6/19 6:03 AM, Ralph Droms wrote: >=20 >> We shouldn't be depending on last-minute quality checks to maintain = the quality of our output. Working groups should be producing documents = that are ready to publish, and develop trust that their documents are = high quality. >=20 > As long as working groups are as siloed as they are, this is unlikely = any WG that affects interests that are outside of its narrow scope. = And it's very dangerous to assume that WGs are competent to produce high = quality work in isolation at least with our current processes. Though = I'd certainly be in favor of some kind of explicit extra-WG review = earlier in a WG's or document's lifespan. We don't want to assume WGs are competent to produce high quality work, = but we should certainly expect that they are. WGs that regularly don't = produce high quality work, perhaps, should not be supported in the IETF? =20 >=20 > Keith >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Nov 6 07:23:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFACC1208B6 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 07:23:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FW6vSdZVwjPP; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 07:23:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9B871208AE; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 07:23:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A65B3818F; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 10:20:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFAFD14; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 10:23:49 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Terry Manderson cc: Mark Nottingham , "nomcom-chair-2019\@ietf.org" , ietf Subject: Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback] In-Reply-To: References: <7E267F5B-0921-412F-B1A5-9A3E5096BD8F@mnot.net> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 15:23:53 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Terry Manderson wrote: > That document > has to be proven before it gets to the rubber stamp process. really? For a Proposed Standard? At this point, our PS quality way exceeds Internet Standard in quality. An ID-WG-08 massively exceeds RFC quality of 20 years ago. My opinion is that the problem is that WGs get shutdown way too soon, and they are not expected to deal with the consequences of (their) poor documen= ts. > How you get there will require a culture change more significant than > living through behaviours towards new participants, greater gender > diversity involvement, cultural sensitives, and and understanding of > the leadership/follower dynamic. The reason that it will be hard is > that the extant culture (while I accept and appreciate my predecessor= s) > is that it is built on the shoulders of legends. It=E2=80=99s now the= time of > the IETF to have a championship team, rather than a team of > champions. Each member of that team needs to be responsible and > accountable for their contribution. The world is changing around us, > much faster than we can adapt. The IETF agility is, sadly, deserving = of > being turbo charged, and you can=E2=80=99t do that with a hand-full of > brilliant people as the =E2=80=9Cfixers=E2=80=9D. I agree with you here. > Understand that while the IETF has a huge reputation, there are other > standards bodies that are doing this better, and faster, and resulting > in bigger improvements to technology. I'm actually not sure that I agree. Can you give me an example? =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3C5YUACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWVrwf/bxzpF0r+iUTUf8vFvOnLCDR82MQUJSdGZwGjcATrD1Sr15PNaWWbjhW0 HYKLGqoIrv0LDUhsgYvqLOSU7ZTYErxe/0qiCDfpa0PMJJfwxX7TdQXb7yn+7ztT TANazRRuPLegge77w/MvY80OZnalj17evJAIREN2C9vmzZuEYxC9LE0YymxEA2kv 8Q5GGJla6sh1qTpnPmbX7Gk8/bFj9X+esh1wLyR9uY1q/r+XYzAL8QpQsI3J3hc8 61oe2aiCcvuBmHm/DQzNsUCyKdYGwHvFg8OOzzJjqmI7x9AjMAQjuirgIoFWKyUo mn9kOxw03kz+ILL4M4cagBKHJ2KOhg== =+PnA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Nov 6 07:27:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F801208B0 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 07:27:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c-foUlx0SQpO for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 07:27:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B73B4120128 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 07:27:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1D903818F; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 10:24:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8A0414; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 10:27:49 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Alexey Melnikov cc: ietf Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews In-Reply-To: <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 15:27:52 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Alexey Melnikov wrote: > On 05/11/2019 21:50, Michael Richardson wrote: >> >> Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> > If we want the IESG job to be more reasonably sized, we have to take >> > work away from the ADs. As far as I can see, that means taking away >> > their duty of acting as final reviewers. I don't want to name names >> > because I don't think the ADs are to be blamed individually, but some >> > of them spend *enormous* effort on detailed reviews. >> >> +1 >> >> I think that there is a lack of trust by ADs of the various directorates. > Other ADs have commented on this, but I think I need to repeat what they > said and expand on it. > Results are vary varied. Some are quite good (e.g. Gen-Art) and others > really depend on reviewer. ADs responsible for Directorates are faces > with the choice of firing half of their Directorates (which has some > rather unfortunate consequences) and/or raise the bar on who should be > allowed to join. We already struggle to recruit people at all levels of > our organization. Firing people is not fun, but just doing the job of the directorate hurts the organization a lot more. Maybe this is where we need some confidential performance reviews. Or maybe the make-up of the Directorate could be confidential, so that there is no shame in being fired. (Or maybe make the reviews blind, so that nobody knows who is being fired. But there are lots of other issues here) -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3C5nUACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWN3wf+MPjp0y7yAgqcHv+ansq/Q++Wgb3PJyc6HcaM80xE4oH+kgcimVrlMBc9 66w6qHlRPjUBQ9EUnSVOSx6KjTdTyEPRhoZcZHt7Zkc9/DyDfpCgabrxNEHCc0O3 JEKRB2J2FzZD3MdWIYUMCGv8xYl9HOHpAxBZ3R4Bs1vFtibK6mffbCI2ajA8/rIp 6kziE0ejSM7AKCfk7d5Xj7CYU0NthAbGy+UOc4noQKYYeypQaI+Nm/JXcUa8NVem 7fsQbosifQLWmztjCmONLIP4+euJJCU2yLCapvqAEhkj5R0B9zopQX7Qc9CEWWTz LJ7c1dw4t6dtTRxpD8SMY/pIxpV7zw== =S+9u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Nov 6 07:28:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54D511208E1 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 07:28:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HasLPKWlLpoE for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 07:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D239120128 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 07:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4CE3818F; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 10:25:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1C3C14; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 10:28:48 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "Rob Wilton \(rwilton\)" cc: Ralph Droms , Alexey Melnikov , ietf Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews In-Reply-To: References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 15:28:52 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: > Perhaps RFCs could list (within the document) who reviewed/approved > them, and in which role/capacity the review had been performed. +10. > This could serve two purposes: > - some minimal reward for those individuals taking the time to review the document, > - encouragement for the reviewers to ensure that an adequate review has been performed based on the role/capacity in which they are acting. I've also suggested that the XML for the acknowledgement section be structured so that we could extract this information better. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3C5rAACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWOcQf6A+lwl60dycU8Z5JPhHWm2VOUM+1pcMI3+JysDJBpLtO1+KY8rbC9c4J1 T7mSMbsDY29ETm9AcwrXP6Srw8wkXoD+H8BuA6D7UhiPV+zGGSsWx90e6WDLYSRZ PmsdgQciSfgEKafeUuAyT4MD3tj2O63XKDVYj3hTWADQz+nHhh06MQfmMfisC+/i HvaKgUiXB+0RAigoUsgcn14SyOrBWk/M6SWYYBWDGH0LhZJpOag9065CWkUc5Jsy U8IwOKGkYjEPotAPT06rdnJtF3gNGyW0YDfpRVyQqSTxij21LavbVRzT8fOJgU+X vvg9+p/FldJ7ZqPCjv1NyTU2XHVt0w== =Z4V6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Nov 6 07:32:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 138BC1208E1 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 07:32:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Wed, 6 Nov 2019 10:32:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews To: Ralph Droms Cc: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <7d7b2541-c5b2-dbfc-e503-36fffc6fabeb@network-heretics.com> <2FBA1517-52B8-478B-95E4-ABDAF8C4A16C@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 10:32:10 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2FBA1517-52B8-478B-95E4-ABDAF8C4A16C@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------5B044B86C1C33DDDB11E9CD5" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 15:32:16 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5B044B86C1C33DDDB11E9CD5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/6/19 10:19 AM, Ralph Droms wrote: >> As long as working groups are as siloed as they are, this is unlikely any WG that affects interests that are outside of its narrow scope. And it's very dangerous to assume that WGs are competent to produce high quality work in isolation at least with our current processes. Though I'd certainly be in favor of some kind of explicit extra-WG review earlier in a WG's or document's lifespan. > We don't want to assume WGs are competent to produce high quality work, but we should certainly expect that they are. I'm not even sure what that means.   And that seems like a tricky wire to balance on. Let me state the problem in a different way:  Most WGs labor for years to produce a few documents, sometimes reaching "rough consensus" mostly by exhaustion, and the level of effort invested is such that it takes tremendous will to completely reject their output even if it's horrible.   Fortunately such output is usually not horrible, but it's not unusual for the result to fail to consider negative effects, and/or for the documents to be poorly written.    At that point the group is too burned out to consider significant changes. But "expecting" that the work is high quality, to justify weakening the reviews that such drafts are subjected to, seems counterproductive.   And I agree that we should not depend on "heroes" either inside or outside the IESG, to provide documents with thorough reviews at a point that it's too late to fix most problems anyway.   So to me that means we need to do thorough, IETF-wide reviews earlier. > WGs that regularly don't produce high quality work, perhaps, should not be supported in the IETF? IMO most WGs should have a short (2-3 years) lifetime.   So by the time it's clear that they do or don't produce high-quality work, it's time for them to be winding down anyway. Keith --------------5B044B86C1C33DDDB11E9CD5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 11/6/19 10:19 AM, Ralph Droms wrote:

As long as working groups are as siloed as they are, this is unlikely any WG that affects interests that are outside of its narrow scope.   And it's very dangerous to assume that WGs are competent to produce high quality work in isolation at least with our current processes.   Though I'd certainly be in favor of some kind of explicit extra-WG review earlier in a WG's or document's lifespan.

We don't want to assume WGs are competent to produce high quality work, but we should certainly expect that they are.

I'm not even sure what that means.   And that seems like a tricky wire to balance on.

Let me state the problem in a different way:  Most WGs labor for years to produce a few documents, sometimes reaching "rough consensus" mostly by exhaustion, and the level of effort invested is such that it takes tremendous will to completely reject their output even if it's horrible.   Fortunately such output is usually not horrible, but it's not unusual for the result to fail to consider negative effects, and/or for the documents to be poorly written.    At that point the group is too burned out to consider significant changes.

But "expecting" that the work is high quality, to justify weakening the reviews that such drafts are subjected to, seems counterproductive.   And I agree that we should not depend on "heroes" either inside or outside the IESG, to provide documents with thorough reviews at a point that it's too late to fix most problems anyway.   So to me that means we need to do thorough, IETF-wide reviews earlier. 

WGs that regularly don't produce high quality work, perhaps, should not be supported in the IETF?

IMO most WGs should have a short (2-3 years) lifetime.   So by the time it's clear that they do or don't produce high-quality work, it's time for them to be winding down anyway.

Keith


--------------5B044B86C1C33DDDB11E9CD5-- From nobody Wed Nov 6 07:33:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58A911208DF for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 07:33:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W0qmgyy8-uwM for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 07:33:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB7B3120128 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 07:33:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 217673818F; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 10:30:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AEE714; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 10:33:50 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Paul Wouters cc: "Rob Wilton \(rwilton\)" , ietf Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews In-Reply-To: References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 15:33:53 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul Wouters wrote: >> Perhaps RFCs could list (within the document) who reviewed/approved >> them, and in which role/capacity the review had been performed. >> This could serve two purposes: >> - some minimal reward for those individuals taking the time to revie= w the document, >> - encouragement for the reviewers to ensure that an adequate review = has been performed based on the role/capacity in which they are acting. > I think I like this idea, but also, speaking for myself I would refuse > to review a few more documents of things that are too far out of my > area of expertise (which might be a good or bad thing, depending on > whether anyone else steps up) I think that this is certainly wise, but I also think that having reviews From=20people who are completely cold is often good. It depends; I've been asked to review some extension to a TE-RSVP (for instance, probably got that TLA wrong) document that basically just added two new attributes, and I can= 't even comprehend the thing being extended, as it's an extension of something else I don't know. I agree with you: there is little I can add other than saying, "paragraph four seems awkward". But that in itself has value, but it's not a useful review to the AD. But there are other things you and I could come to cold, like (to use my example above), that might be: "An Architecture for doing Traffic Engineering with RSVP" where we might actually be able to say, "Yes, I understood the problem, and I agree that t= he solution seems to be in scale with the problem, and the security posture seems appropriate" =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3C594ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUrNAgAriJV4DbYQ2YOGWns16/CK3juHG2iDwSUDauPejvmyo4E2b6WZ30O61cd DAgy7JRVLhCCbX/l6E/ezFgRoite0JsSDiDckeNZolwDf4oBZO8sLsaeOG0sTv/Q uzw47+qtM7Ix40GiQd2osOBj2iDC7B/tcGyRM6Av9RgJrRTSrq6iCNWnQGHj9Pm5 3LvA84/5LFkNnp/jQZK0FDV2gtR5jftaN8AIa0rG0hoWt8ptqJkpvU7mOd9+PalN 47uMv0WECJ0qnawh4+ITSGIJinixHMPgS2CEemM47SqdjBkZKC8T5RfVB8YgbotP /mbWCKQ0GMfkd6QZh2xfYvXDUqbl6Q== =G49K -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Nov 6 07:39:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E003F120C6F for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 07:39:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5MAk1MasWLI0 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 07:39:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1284A1209DD for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 07:39:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6F1C3897B for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 10:36:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF1914 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 10:39:15 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: ietf Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews In-Reply-To: <9C797CFF-6120-4783-8D2F-098D3F0E0A7F@tzi.org> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <9C797CFF-6120-4783-8D2F-098D3F0E0A7F@tzi.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 15:39:25 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carsten Bormann wrote: > But please do keep in mind that after having worked a couple of years > on a document, the WG might no longer see things that a fresh look wi= ll > uncover. I think getting that fresh look is one of the great features > of the multi-step review process we have. Also, there is the simple > fact of serendipity! (Which is not very structured, and someone > schooled in quality processes will hate, but creating quality is not > really a controlled process anyway=E2=80=A6) 1) We need these things to happen significantly before WGLC, and the WG has to not regard these things as hostile; this means that the review has to= help. The reviewer has to then become involved in the changes that result. (This argues for the "stable document" statement, but I'd way prefer that we published stable-document as PS, using some lighter weight process, even if it winds up in a new series) 2) The AD for that directorate has to be involved such that the relevant AD does not just repeat the entire conversation. 3) We need the time from beginning the document process to the end of this = to occur a bit faster as authors of a document simply get exhausted. That probably argues for shorter documents. It also argues for more hands to be involved, which might mean to me, lifting the 5 author limit. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3C6SIACgkQgItw+93Q 3WW7aggAoyYscCJWplcTfg8sJ/1X4zA6usM0MtQSr9gfBjwQnYNJOz/OrDL/mlop 6AIOuplq6CHG75ECJwoI8YBmUEJOOIuaycc7l7gtnkOUKk+WymAbRBCU62Yiv2EM dx/hhsQHPxa03g9I7xXsFfNsp5VkkDvHmlNIMokZgCTBcD0iG9RZ0yUvZt5PvSP/ oPc7pHGevo3Cdv8Ur0SB8RvsEa/Ul97aK7GCXCOal5wT0Lfdt7yRCh5lUaPXB9Q4 RM2w/g6DcdltKeuxgBPbdDCS5kTbpVgOjAigFU5Jsbohc1jM7kl3oGBH16AZFI7K SRMF609dOJhRMk57SIWmmAAFjXxqpw== =QE54 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Nov 6 08:00:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9600912085C for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 08:00:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 08:00:11 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) Subject: Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback] From: Stewart Bryant In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 16:00:10 +0000 Cc: ietf , "nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <0053C5D9-E4D7-4BE0-9B73-3B7FC25561FB@akamai.com> <20191105092422.GA61969@kduck.mit.edu> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3601.0.10) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 16:00:24 -0000 > On 5 Nov 2019, at 22:54, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 05-Nov-19 22:24, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > .... >> The past few generic IESG job descriptions (as sent to Nomcom) have = had >> some interesting text in this front (quoting from >> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2019/expertise/#pos-iesg-members): >>=20 >> % An AD should be able to personally review every Internet-Draft that = they >> % sponsor. For other Internet-Drafts an AD needs to be satisfied that >> % adequate review has taken place, though many ADs personally review = these >> % documents as well.=20 >=20 > I'm sure the last clause is true, but maybe it's an error to include = it in the job description almost as if it is a duty. >=20 > On 06-Nov-19 05:35, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: >=20 >> 1) AD are 'responsible' so they do need to check the intensive work = of WG, shepherd, IETF last call and directorate >=20 > Yes, but that does *not* necessarily require this: >=20 >> 6) reviews are probably 50% of our time >=20 > And Eric also said: >=20 >> 2) sometimes the directorate reviews come too late for the IESG = ballot for approval >=20 > In that case, perhaps the response should be to defer the ballot = automatically, and make it public that the reason is a late review. >=20 > Also, do some areas only request telechat reviews? In my experience in = Gen-ART, most issues and fixes occur during Last Call reviews, so that = the telechat review is often a formality. >=20 > On 06-Nov-19 08:17, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >=20 >>> Does every AD read all the drafts? I don't know. But changing the = process to say one AD from each area would reduce the load. >>=20 >> Some divide it up. Pete & Barry had a split. If there was a big = load, Stephen would start from one end of the list and I'd start from = the other. We both mostly wanted to 'read' them all though. >=20 > The word that stands out for me is "wanted". Similarly, it's because I = *want* to track the technology that I've been a Gen-ART reviewer for = many years. But if (as people say every year at about this time) we = really need to reduce the AD workload to something more like part-time, = some things have to change. >=20 > It seems to me that the IESG itself can make such changes, since this = is a matter of procedures rather than our formal rules. It's too late = for this year, but maybe next year's NomCom could have an easier job. >=20 > Brian >=20 Maybe we need a larger more formal review team that aims to have a few = people read every draft before it gets onto IETF LC? As I have said before I am not entirely convinced the ADs are reading = their own drafts before they go to the telecast. I have a simple = barometer for this, how can a draft ever get to IETF LC or directorate = review with serious nits errors? That is machine checkable so there = should be none of those.=20 - Stewart From nobody Wed Nov 6 08:02:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 739AF120112 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 08:02:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T4KztlqURG-7 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 08:02:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32c.google.com (mail-wm1-x32c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09900120072 for ; 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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 08:02:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from appleton.fritz.box ([62.3.64.16]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w10sm2946919wmd.26.2019.11.06.08.02.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 08:02:33 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews From: Stewart Bryant In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 16:02:33 +0000 Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , ietf Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> To: Paul Wouters X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3601.0.10) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 16:02:38 -0000 > On 6 Nov 2019, at 14:38, Paul Wouters wrote: >=20 > On Wed, 6 Nov 2019, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: >=20 >> Perhaps RFCs could list (within the document) who reviewed/approved = them, and in which role/capacity the review had been performed. >>=20 >> This could serve two purposes: >> - some minimal reward for those individuals taking the time to review = the document, >> - encouragement for the reviewers to ensure that an adequate review = has been performed based on the role/capacity in which they are acting. >=20 > I think I like this idea, but also, speaking for myself I would refuse > to review a few more documents of things that are too far out of my > area of expertise (which might be a good or bad thing, depending on > whether anyone else steps up) >=20 > Paul >=20 I learn a lot from the out of area drafts that I get asked to review. - Stewart= From nobody Wed Nov 6 08:54:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD19C120903 for ; 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Wed, 6 Nov 2019 11:54:20 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews In-Reply-To: References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <7d7b2541-c5b2-dbfc-e503-36fffc6fabeb@network-heretics.com> <2FBA1517-52B8-478B-95E4-ABDAF8C4A16C@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 16:54:25 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Keith Moore wrote: >> WGs that regularly don't produce high quality work, perhaps, should >> not be supported in the IETF? > IMO most WGs should have a short (2-3 years) lifetime.=C2=A0=C2=A0 So= by the time it's > clear that they do or don't produce high-quality work, it's time for = them to > be winding down anyway. I would like to amend this. WGs should have a short (1-2) year iteration t= ime. That is, time from milestone being added to the charter to IESG Publication= as PS. I really think that WGs need to remain in existence longer in order to deal with errata, to look at interop results, write operational documents, and promote to IS. That doesn't mean they have to meet in person very often, in fact, I would discourage that. There does have to be a venue for new people to join and get to meet the existing people. We need that kind of social interaction to form cohesion, and to renew our energy and enthusiasm. (Insert image of old-timer drinking blood of newbies...) =2D--- Notice how milestones today say, "Submit Document to IESG for Publication", and that's all for the WG. But, it's just the beginning. There could be four to eight months of IESG level review that follows, whic= h the WG has no control over. Let me put this another way, as this started with dearth of candidates to N= OMCOM. The list of AD candidates is effectively limited to the current list of WG = chairs. (I've said this before, multiple times) WG chairs that aren't actively engaged with their WG and the authors to get at good result that passes external review and AD review easily aren't going to have time/energy/ability to be good ADs... yet... Our mistake, however, is that having picked good WGs chairs to become ADs, = we basically Peter-principle them, removing them from what they are good at, a= nd ask them now to: *manage* and *mentor* new WGs chairs to be their successor= s. Since most of the ADs were awesome WG chairs, it's hardly surprising that they revert to what they were good at, and basically just take on the WG chair responsability for document quality. Afterall: that's the skill that they demonstrated so well that it got them = "promoted". =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3C+rwACgkQgItw+93Q 3WX8agf+NhvJAAeU3lrDwDyf/76WcZx0BtFCz2aEPfn/O8CbclX5XDQIPjiPsQ4i 41dso/6J+Lh9LXx0FgbSu6SxnDmRhAWNFDHHwVtwGbajp+lqBatRMz6QuOB6Ru2B jFCGQDNpXR/2O2y7XL5fWT9On1xpjwjSse6KfgGSVzextcDUQ0YJOitggqFWqppl MJSBLW2IbPlLzXTyd8DzBjaOvL2a2SFBtYoy5hv8iVjOISrVFAip7O34bpB40cem 8XRSjHTOBmi/kdd7p7gG9abwLZ3mjzFFmnFZZHc1LAtFyE9JM5Qni1icPmx3xYTM qs8JxVs+CtIfRztP00ibBEuNiWtoAA== =R8mI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Nov 6 09:04:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CA37120089 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:04:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LQ540RAoMW0H for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:04:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x335.google.com (mail-wm1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A5EE120072 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:04:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x335.google.com with SMTP id t26so4282703wmi.4 for ; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 09:04:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=Os5U+FX9lF54e0cqOPZWBALb4Cg1O9PXLdzPrMnGQWQ=; b=RLU9JPGZmLHBZBR20aNSI1IjJKrFzk1u5VY1Xu6EssuwDTbDFWDM2rQ1pGeq0PUVSb ujj1txIabfBqStJJXQAdFJRIhCupo8MTeJEQdd4iWE4b+T56eu+BNqC2f9PdE9Laa09Y 2RGczn7Al1tdiZWQZi4lBvjy5dzFkDbg96XBS06nSCp6HDVvTH+sg//OkOi1POUW8lCJ Z6N7FAmynLqeNXPIhoCHz2Zi5i05MRdFEbXT/THZrzULSgPN4ial7G4KAsZj7+uk3z/5 Fhd2va0RZn80lQxRB564WBUP+DIDuF25gNvPi+8e/zGxGzmezzJwZ+y+Z3OrcIFe5MEc ulrw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=Os5U+FX9lF54e0cqOPZWBALb4Cg1O9PXLdzPrMnGQWQ=; b=uB6jbJgRmxCv4QZwwJbvx5fdnB14m4RhogurnFk/UMnAk3XvmEyHKBOJJtyZUzbITr g+qp0GLjVYU/xB6e1Jp91QyAFWwjGy8duUam6iSm8z8h2VxCjyK/XlbVmm+AJD1XETBC sihha96gU587TPmRTmYIiL34QAEIY0/CLdZ8matJ8iOrcRLhJMUzVMKSp9nXXCCMhv1J V5kBcnOPRKd320dGHFQvtrNHtGf181Km/KK5B98Pa6qy8v74IbHrKCfyVJ8zJYeoOMyu tfH3CGCuUfEU227lMfaBY0FnU7GuvPpMBGGpjAA2MZORlyPIvv0pQpnIFhhhCoQLurA/ 9A4A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUnVKB141sJH2+lcCwLKqf9GjD6g0GKEJJ7z2nZqLChZgjibR/h 8u1bw5NmT5m4IuNW6qZKkJc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzBO2Nq/5SffvpS+jZXxoWKB9je8uH/rP/+T1HlOcRkhdcf/uRIKkNPNbtuKJIG9usOfC8ODA== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c4c7:: with SMTP id g7mr3324944wmk.144.1573059891731; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 09:04:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:dcc8:ba76:7e6f:8cb9? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:dcc8:ba76:7e6f:8cb9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v16sm26317076wrc.84.2019.11.06.09.04.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 09:04:50 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E06787C9-2C57-486A-9BD0-7BDCF7FD1C4C"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:04:45 -0800 In-Reply-To: <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , Alexey Melnikov , Michael Richardson , IETF To: Ralph Droms References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 17:04:57 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E06787C9-2C57-486A-9BD0-7BDCF7FD1C4C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Ralph, > On Nov 6, 2019, at 3:03 AM, Ralph Droms wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > We shouldn't be depending on last-minute quality checks to maintain = the quality of our output. Working groups should be producing documents = that are ready to publish, and develop trust that their documents are = high quality. >=20 I agree. This pushes most of the responsibility to the w.g. chairs, = where IMHO it belongs. This does scale with the number of working = groups. Bob --Apple-Mail=_E06787C9-2C57-486A-9BD0-7BDCF7FD1C4C Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl3C/S0ACgkQrut0EXfn u6jmIAf9G6ATmdxyBu3IXB23yCiNn9+RuL31wtFlpr4ScFtBmxiBT4zrqNpdX0zK G61G/A/jyvuA6yBOhGQniZGuZYnSEuT5D67Uft44kbijRRyWJsEplhG1UTZIP+7K KKvc9QB0h2CDoHuPSeMY08TqAOdgxWuvjrjU6jKHQdZAkI+ID6dcwF5xAv4Pozpk fGxWtS0tTbHVzraL4Vy+AZ7+qkIJXF77YddF/AbdzLL699yh83rSxEN8mY4SWBLG SbuAHo56qpx+o7N5taj9qmACjsyyA+GPEfSmv41mZN16tUVxSX2k3jsXVCe80loF JFT2MNVWWBG2mTKdn+WqRx8cZLF72A== =DrZx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_E06787C9-2C57-486A-9BD0-7BDCF7FD1C4C-- From nobody Wed Nov 6 09:10:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4BB31208AE for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:10:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9dVsWpO6agsz for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:10:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42e.google.com (mail-wr1-x42e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C85CE12088F for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:10:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id i10so6122786wrs.7 for ; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 09:10:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=74rMz8yMPGhb+6CrvGCR1e2HLv4zeYhiFXDGWDpMDj0=; b=vVl+J7Mqjrwks2YP9BKkad1XvaezEVflQcNWuxXggePjEAi4LKDhL6cSpMAuEQELQz N21iwNQEnBK8wzYZ/D9rA3t9w/JK+6vCNs22hyTrvJAoWxmNEVtajOOmYbyqkBa1v1A4 iWoajSP0okLjwPV/VUpi2liB9zRaYCfWORFXpl8oeVSOTqhgygBHA5I5tauofYhPh1OX vzoxS06ZFmrWUXLU+qhuUOEbRt4hVPfuZt7csi8Ysx49D8VtMnn4nAttaxutp9V5++TP r7P01nce93xeZx0fhL3mtKp7zOtxmibSHN8heLnYI6lgJiLjEmd4D98P+y27uuswNb6J DIdA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=74rMz8yMPGhb+6CrvGCR1e2HLv4zeYhiFXDGWDpMDj0=; b=Z+xASRlmO04Z+Rv4zIRD1CfiDtEY5snSa8aA7oslqPur5ZcCNp5H+5ppD+y4G/j+CW pyJWFFiDiTy1qdpjCUpCMroi6BNfNdw/aFgyJtRQed/l7ZVj1M0mpg7k4vVWhVOWMudm g84x0FN6w5CTBj6S2oV03DsgEyVQwsoCamOr4cOMVNTIX3bpqwn/K5isHmUu9VcN0czZ DFN1IUbfXQpgxIA86BM99wox5ivr5530AHLev+tPHYfHZTMZCPf9kb+sPPbgZQ+mUlvL MDyC7CIdiH+4euqY9Jvhb+9EWHX161H5LsCh231Oj83v0sDKVyon02pRpVdOAt6QuOXG j1Eg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWa5+sP+tqTByr5SgbR2R9r2yQraHDbD2QZefpWIjKBtJM6/EcJ 5IAJNlOFDiD8hZfjK3do8IU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyh/6Sp2JW1WGPpp6fQ9ryA16CZuYqvyUi93YM274Dqckymek7WAjnR1zqUzSpt9dnlly766g== X-Received: by 2002:adf:e5cf:: with SMTP id a15mr3901472wrn.143.1573060251361; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 09:10:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:dcc8:ba76:7e6f:8cb9? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:dcc8:ba76:7e6f:8cb9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i71sm32550228wri.68.2019.11.06.09.10.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 09:10:50 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <15BCDF05-FB13-45D2-A5DF-70618EBA1A5A@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_702A455C-83CD-46C8-8DE6-3E99DD722F97"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:10:47 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20191.1573054128@localhost> Cc: Bob Hinden , "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , Alexey Melnikov , IETF To: Michael Richardson References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <20191.1573054128@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 17:10:55 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_702A455C-83CD-46C8-8DE6-3E99DD722F97 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, > On Nov 6, 2019, at 7:28 AM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: >> Perhaps RFCs could list (within the document) who reviewed/approved >> them, and in which role/capacity the review had been performed. >=20 > +10. >=20 >> This could serve two purposes: >> - some minimal reward for those individuals taking the time to review = the document, >> - encouragement for the reviewers to ensure that an adequate review = has been performed based on the role/capacity in which they are acting. >=20 > I've also suggested that the XML for the acknowledgement section be > structured so that we could extract this information better. All of this (reviewers, Shepard, AD reviews, ballots, etc.) is captured = in the datatracker currently. I am not sure why it would also need to = be in the document. Bob --Apple-Mail=_702A455C-83CD-46C8-8DE6-3E99DD722F97 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl3C/pcACgkQrut0EXfn u6hInAf/SM3/qjm+lYvfuZxpBFjzD9n4ozJWyOxtVfNp/vXX66OudT0tgzp5DxGs zWxDEBGrWJ69U3LAnPPefR1OKMLmbR0yIes8dF0wkkZUm+gmOTaHEhxdY0NxFWS5 r0dITKqQ+8le9mqbQIBIl8Q7cb8ZmeNvHirUJ2oGZ3LueTNSzr6SiKKAH9zP5zTn HSvtJI0hgnTWN5eajMgJqWvwwt0bmrbvs3NIxP6Iu1COiKpVzDZ52+qwc7toFP3s qaZFXdIg9D1cbYE2PxTrrfVgnpLN0h0hkiROuuLfE23eSO+LGYraXuw+E0qnSQwe YQjZldzXuaDSXt1NwBlFcO7tSofMnQ== =july -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_702A455C-83CD-46C8-8DE6-3E99DD722F97-- From nobody Wed Nov 6 09:26:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B01D12018D for ; 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([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:dcc8:ba76:7e6f:8cb9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e27sm8029898wra.21.2019.11.06.09.47.05 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 09:47:06 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_394D9CC5-CE68-4011-8D37-8FFAD28A7F8C"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:47:01 -0800 In-Reply-To: <7A9BF54C-7B7F-41C4-8C74-B23166405776@akamai.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , Michael Richardson , Alexey Melnikov , IETF To: "Salz, Rich" References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <20191.1573054128@localhost> <15BCDF05-FB13-45D2-A5DF-70618EBA1A5A@gmail.com> <7A9BF54C-7B7F-41C4-8C74-B23166405776@akamai.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 17:47:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_394D9CC5-CE68-4011-8D37-8FFAD28A7F8C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Rich, > On Nov 6, 2019, at 9:26 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: >=20 >> All of this (reviewers, Shepard, AD reviews, ballots, etc.) is = captured in the datatracker currently. I am not sure why it would also = need to be in the document. >=20 > As incentive to do the best possible job. >=20 Might be better to give out gold stars in the plenary to people who do a = lot of good reviews. Bib --Apple-Mail=_394D9CC5-CE68-4011-8D37-8FFAD28A7F8C Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl3DBxUACgkQrut0EXfn u6i86Af/fU5Z46z+w627Jgf0761ciBfByguGP8Jrx9S3XLMTK6GuiqUgdP9793lc q1fIR3Geugp3s8uWO0JMMbqqmSSmFUX/UdIfYhE1/GwH+3bAHnsY6o6fXQyXsf8c dyWeJ9k31t+YuFluNAmpxp6WJPcorwWOX3Yg+OkXoSfQ6rwAbwVLc/sHQcDHTAFH 9iHhjHd7uh/weYbZnKku95B+EuTM5yZY/DNhDC5Io9erD42LGH+xJ95xcVHPYeYR zI0RfxqKVkdYgG4rTG70DSyPVbHPz133X4bM7WsWRcIgFqU/H5TDDF2HIehpivXt yN8ohNxkLtULdn2ityffR7J4lEx4Sw== =bn1g -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_394D9CC5-CE68-4011-8D37-8FFAD28A7F8C-- From nobody Wed Nov 6 09:49:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28D8B120144 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:49:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nYybYUgOwDX9 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:49:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from puck.nether.net (puck.nether.net [204.42.254.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0959412012A for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:49:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.129] (173-167-0-106-michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.167.0.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by puck.nether.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D6C765400F5; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:49:03 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews From: Jared Mauch In-Reply-To: <7d7b2541-c5b2-dbfc-e503-36fffc6fabeb@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:49:03 -0500 Cc: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8A7F75B1-9CB8-4E78-9180-427C76523EB1@puck.nether.net> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <7d7b2541-c5b2-dbfc-e503-36fffc6fabeb@network-heretics.com> To: Keith Moore X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3601.0.10) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 17:49:09 -0000 > On Nov 6, 2019, at 9:52 AM, Keith Moore = wrote: >=20 > On 11/6/19 6:03 AM, Ralph Droms wrote: >=20 >> We shouldn't be depending on last-minute quality checks to maintain = the quality of our output. Working groups should be producing documents = that are ready to publish, and develop trust that their documents are = high quality. >=20 > As long as working groups are as siloed as they are, this is unlikely = any WG that affects interests that are outside of its narrow scope. = And it's very dangerous to assume that WGs are competent to produce high = quality work in isolation at least with our current processes. Though = I'd certainly be in favor of some kind of explicit extra-WG review = earlier in a WG's or document's lifespan. >=20 I have to agree here. There=E2=80=99s things that happen where some = better cross-area would be useful, but we also face the fact that with a = growing community it=E2=80=99s not possible to have all the implications = in mind. A subtle change in one area with one protocol or how that = transport happens may have ops impact for the protocol. A great example is that the large providers are often well represented = but people who are still building services themselves just end up = dealing with the changes vs having the bandwidth to participate with = people whose full time job it is to e-mail the lists. The subject line of this is also possibly quite problematic as it may be = about one or more ADs today or just an abstract problem. We should be = cautious to not have this turn into painting the aircraft carriers bike = shed while it turns lest we go overboard. :-) - Jared From nobody Wed Nov 6 09:53:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C00AE120867 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:53:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id euAzli_gPHD5 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:53:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 057E0120854 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:53:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050095.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:53:40 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.32]) by prod-mail-ppoint3.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2w420w0sbs-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 12:53:39 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:53:38 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.005; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:53:38 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Bob Hinden CC: Michael Richardson , Alexey Melnikov , IETF Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Thread-Topic: Quality of Directorate reviews Thread-Index: AQHVlI3dxpu/y4FrL0St/PImnWQvP6d+TjiAgAAK+4CAAD9HAIAAHH+A//+wcoCAAFmtgP//rgeA Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 17:53:37 +0000 Message-ID: <8278E6B0-7855-4340-9CD3-0D7F38FDEDB6@akamai.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <20191.1573054128@localhost> <15BCDF05-FB13-45D2-A5DF-70618EBA1A5A@gmail.com> <7A9BF54C-7B7F-41C4-8C74-B23166405776@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1f.0.191103 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.34.165] Content-Type: text/plain; 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Wed, 06 Nov 2019 11:28:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from appleton.fritz.box ([62.3.64.16]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g14sm26396943wro.33.2019.11.06.11.28.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 11:28:08 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews From: Stewart Bryant In-Reply-To: <7A9BF54C-7B7F-41C4-8C74-B23166405776@akamai.com> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 19:28:07 +0000 Cc: Bob Hinden , Michael Richardson , Alexey Melnikov , IETF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <115A579C-D309-401A-8460-FD24DDDDE910@gmail.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <20191.1573054128@localhost> <15BCDF05-FB13-45D2-A5DF-70618EBA1A5A@gmail.com> <7A9BF54C-7B7F-41C4-8C74-B23166405776@akamai.com> To: "Salz, Rich" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3601.0.10) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 19:28:14 -0000 > On 6 Nov 2019, at 17:26, Salz, Rich wrote: >=20 >> All of this (reviewers, Shepard, AD reviews, ballots, etc.) is = captured in the datatracker currently. I am not sure why it would also = need to be in the document. >=20 > As incentive to do the best possible job. >=20 .. and as a thank to the reviewer and their sponsor. - Stewart From nobody Wed Nov 6 12:36:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0916C1200F4 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:35:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5ZKiJOHVP1u9 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:35:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com (mail-lj1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93ED61200A4 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:35:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id g3so21551809ljl.11 for ; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 12:35:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=JGCbcoELvYanNlRSG6rL53xL1cgZMbqhLm4M3uxh9OQ=; b=ZebCRLG+C4OFi4SX+zcUFt5VCLbX2kCNi+kVq1wM/8cN3hKFImyhe863prFmCr1qel jyl9kcsSpHozQzI1ryZJZAwWv1WsWjAMZ/rzoNNXsUK4xJ/SpgroHaRd1dXCBa5QxbUi uj09Rqp94nVLoxf5Efe3THAEMvG31F0iq0i6/OJ5Ko/ApZ7K4vkY1eSmelhRX0AhydPS /XFWxKzX1hanP9fKCZu+c/Tk2jQw01KcU1lucqT7LlJ7t4Mt8IBIi6SeAIwLDfGcccpf cwJHwTjMJHQtAq6cLfpv2pC8hZ2yLYTsQrIts5ZWqToqHyRxEZWKXwRcexs3PB/aEZI5 9msw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=JGCbcoELvYanNlRSG6rL53xL1cgZMbqhLm4M3uxh9OQ=; b=W3MNvYNsevrg06kPbgIvQ6IZqY3fG/BaQZevQo9x5MgUqqLSvCuOZ4FYN8s0yf8RpQ C7kjI4RTHN6+Zj6PuNr5HQ1EMVzQEgOzfgMJS12Pz/UJCtasf6MI/CukXEuS8Ltyi6ED nL6O6WPwz+rfH3Wo9mcHpRn8g42S7SkMSuLLZKa9lFL2Wh1BY3VyW//pvnl0+xNfGbed C6szW3d/RmVceCYp50LOoDtCBYyRyAPymWQ7uHBsdASdJYO71HBTXbY3h+Tql6kORxEL mNTPXnpojJbN7meAmG3RpvK8mjbeWJAJZemJSTin06n17OSajIDCNhobmxrqUS/mQvS+ voiQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU3vkbl3rbyEgD+1dFUckkBUd3wyaHEGzfo5HBJLMWDwmYMT5ez 23rNb3ijnoP2KjVuXOH+HPHPqaEv/mbybQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxFWQtgA27xb3vtTIHbbgURN22sEUbuUhQyU8uum6rfXMfVcscpkbKWlSvMpp7AmmANAEZ5HQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:303:: with SMTP id a3mr3181832ljp.55.1573072554339; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 12:35:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2a00:801:427:ae20:808e:437c:815e:c70? ([2a00:801:427:ae20:808e:437c:815e:c70]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u14sm10122106lfk.47.2019.11.06.12.35.53 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 12:35:53 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Leif Johansson Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback] Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 21:35:50 +0100 Message-Id: <08BB6995-6AD0-4918-A1A4-C9C7819F0B24@mnt.se> References: Cc: "ietf@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: To: "Salz, Rich" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A878) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 20:35:59 -0000 Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone > 6 nov. 2019 kl. 14:28 skrev Salz, Rich : >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >> openid foundation comes to mind >=20 > I wonder how many members they have? https://openid.net/foundation/benefi= ts-members/ Again, a serious question. >=20 >=20 >=20 Whats a member and how many does the IETF have and how is that metric relate= d to (say) the impact of an SDO?=20= From nobody Wed Nov 6 12:41:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AF2D1200FE for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:41:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3iVUUcqqkFeX for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:41:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.127]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C20D31200F4 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:41:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050096.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. 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([2a00:801:427:ae20:808e:437c:815e:c70]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i22sm7189ljg.94.2019.11.06.13.35.35 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 13:35:35 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Leif Johansson Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback] Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 22:35:33 +0100 Message-Id: <8334DCDB-BFDE-41F9-87A7-C20408FF47DF@mnt.se> References: <6D2AB0B4-136D-4569-BF3C-393F11357AA8@akamai.com> Cc: "ietf@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <6D2AB0B4-136D-4569-BF3C-393F11357AA8@akamai.com> To: "Salz, Rich" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A878) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 21:35:42 -0000 Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone > 6 nov. 2019 kl. 21:42 skrev Salz, Rich : >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >>> openid foundation comes to mind >>=20 >> I wonder how many members they have? https://openid.net/foundation/benef= its-members/ Again, a serious question. >> Whats a member and how many does the IETF have and how is that metric r= elated to (say) the impact of an SDO?=20 >=20 > Do you always answer a question with a question? :) Did it work :-) Yes! >=20 > Comparing sizes might show some interesting things. For example, if an SD= O is dominated by three big companies and everyone else is there just to get= early access and do rubber-stamping, that doesn't fit the IETF model very w= ell. >=20 I think uptake and impact are more important metrics. 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([2a00:801:427:ae20:808e:437c:815e:c70]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v21sm15591ljh.53.2019.11.06.13.35.59 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 13:35:59 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Leif Johansson Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback] Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 22:35:58 +0100 Message-Id: <3BFAECDC-1FED-4438-A86F-E1D9E76D07C7@mnt.se> References: <0B2B0429-9D84-4EEB-A09C-48A62E7E7C0A@akamai.com> Cc: "ietf@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <0B2B0429-9D84-4EEB-A09C-48A62E7E7C0A@akamai.com> To: "Salz, Rich" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A878) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 21:36:07 -0000 Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone > 6 nov. 2019 kl. 22:10 skrev Salz, Rich : >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >> Do you always answer a question with a question? :) >=20 > Off-line someone said this was unfair and could be taken as a personal att= ack. 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[111.69.166.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c16sm36658pfo.34.2019.11.06.14.54.59 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 14:55:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] To: Bob Hinden , Ralph Droms Cc: Alexey Melnikov , IETF , Michael Richardson References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 11:54:59 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 22:55:05 -0000 Here's a thought experiment. Update the standards process such that the approval of Proposed Standard RFCs, after an IETF last call including some specified cross-area review requirements, is done by the WG consensus process with the consent of the AD . Why would that work? Because it now incents the WG chairs by making them, in effect, where the buck stops. So the WG chairs and AD (typically a committee of three) will feel the obligation to get everything right. And it scales. Regards Brian Carpenter On 07-Nov-19 06:04, Bob Hinden wrote: > Ralph, > >> On Nov 6, 2019, at 3:03 AM, Ralph Droms wrote: >> >> >> >> We shouldn't be depending on last-minute quality checks to maintain the quality of our output. Working groups should be producing documents that are ready to publish, and develop trust that their documents are high quality. >> > > I agree. This pushes most of the responsibility to the w.g. chairs, where IMHO it belongs. This does scale with the number of working groups. > > Bob > > From nobody Wed Nov 6 15:01:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B79F1201CE for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 15:01:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eRS6fHOXNM4U for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 15:01:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F6E7120052 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 15:01:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 824EB3FE; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 18:01:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 18:01:10 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=ZqQfaMn54Czm2/1dWY0KYJmm+r2VU1JoYAmqOGgLa ak=; b=a6vF+nsZoPF6/CpwiRbmIys+z8aSZ2NPMqjToBIaOZ8/pj84tNJ0tPRgI BMKIVc0i/lRkF9LJyBxmMVDOYIk5QKu/t86jvCtZlSxwoH0sIOZzwDTb7esDMZ5/ l06RfSZ3KBQYCtjJwTRNc1J+O29GjKLhyhPbRN3oYG/o18PCH/4YkZmh73uxXybn J/GunyBDn3CbuLjFF9bU4l9j9PEnD5FYklcBnGnpZy9eLi6vD7CcLLrCJTAHTjbP A2UpMZ43jCGB6fOxHzVhwaDlyPCFwmhNPRkjyyQrmgzV+aDonw1UbA2fl48vpeiZ GOWcXoKFHHjYbmhsQk0dxK02dmypA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedruddukedgtdehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrud ehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghr vghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id B4C063060064; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 18:01:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 18:01:09 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 23:01:13 -0000 On 11/6/19 5:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Here's a thought experiment. > > Update the standards process such that the approval of Proposed Standard > RFCs, after an IETF last call including some specified cross-area review > requirements, is done by the WG consensus process with the consent of the AD . I don't think a typical WG chair is in a good position to review things from a broad perspective.   The ADs are in a MUCH better position to do that, precisely because they are exposed to everything that IETF does.   Also, the WG chairs are properly concerned with the specific perspective of their WGs; they know where the hard battles were fought.   Their WG needs them to be in a position to defend the WG's work.   To expect them to do both that and the broad review would put them in a conflicted position, and it's probably the broad review that would get shortchanged. Keith From nobody Wed Nov 6 16:01:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74FEA12008F for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 16:01:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M-gsablwwy3X for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 16:01:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CC27120025 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 16:01:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2EF3212BF; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 19:01:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 19:01:54 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=YV30HBmhBXeV5YTCuUMexDTiIi7G6P5oUo1VYFOcv mM=; b=c9wY3yCWbSOb/z0kqRysg5dfcbneosVG3+LptxrIx8Chc2lGpqKIQ8vJ8 xLMsyAQDI0aj00xvHaacGGdFRZhpxS3FGitOVnS1P/U0C4GP4PKz4OOUe+RO7jAJ /FTw5BmsLssIdAcrK4DB6dGlVOtfZUd6sPau3Fe1a28vtIiu2HTzrAi7Sc1uXW1v +UPIqvrn0sfrRPg47wfSEjzMNehKM9qBzSDopV6jJ9vJiSJhckQK1w2/gq9VEjYB prYpHFF3mZTNvI79MPzI958eGMUmZlFHgMcs/rPXo1g6BKtHdKdz2sgbBRu69qxK ZuJU5VnaIkhXFk6xyvaAzbD7704KQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedruddukedgudeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrud ehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghr vghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D256C306005F; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 19:01:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <7d7b2541-c5b2-dbfc-e503-36fffc6fabeb@network-heretics.com> <2FBA1517-52B8-478B-95E4-ABDAF8C4A16C@gmail.com> <7527.1573059260@localhost> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <7ccf7cf2-3ce1-c838-b838-fce2bc8e7cc0@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 19:01:52 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7527.1573059260@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 00:01:58 -0000 On 11/6/19 11:54 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > Keith Moore wrote: > >> WGs that regularly don't produce high quality work, perhaps, should > >> not be supported in the IETF? > > > IMO most WGs should have a short (2-3 years) lifetime.   So by the time it's > > clear that they do or don't produce high-quality work, it's time for them to > > be winding down anyway. > > I would like to amend this. WGs should have a short (1-2) year iteration time. > That is, time from milestone being added to the charter to IESG Publication as PS. > I really think that WGs need to remain in existence longer in order to deal > with errata, to look at interop results, write operational documents, and > promote to IS. I can see pros and cons with this.   IMO one of the problems with long-lived WGs is that they can keep creating more work for themselves whether or not it is needed.   Sure, they need to update their charters to do so but I've rarely seen those efforts be rebuffed. I also understand that the more WGs there are, the more load there is on the ADs, even if many of those WGs are dormant. So I think it might make more sense to have a specific long-term WG or two per area to focus on maintenance, than to keep the narrowly-focused WGs around indefinitely.   Such a "maintenance" WG might also be tasked with periodically reviewing each of the current standards-track documents in that area, looking at the state of deployment and suitability for purpose, and making recommendations for updating, status change, new documents (e.g. usage profiles or applicability statements), or deprecation as appropriate. > The list of AD candidates is effectively limited to the current list of WG chairs. > (I've said this before, multiple times) I don't think this is actually true.   It's closer to the set of people who have chaired a WG at some time in the present or past. And I think it would be fair to consider directorate members in some cases. > Since most of the ADs were awesome WG chairs, it's hardly surprising that > they revert to what they were good at, and basically just take on the WG > chair responsability for document quality. While that might happen in some cases, I don't think that's a good explanation for ADs taking on detailed review.   ADs know that they're in a unique position to uphold the quality of IETF standards.   They see the widely varying quality that WGs produce, and they know how important it is to get some of that stuff right.   (Some of it is relatively inconsequential.)   And in practice, an AD actually has fairly limited power to make sure that a WG reliably produces good output.   The AD can in theory fire poor chairs, but this has the potential to be so disruptive as to make things worse, and there may be a dearth of good chairs to replace them.   It's all well and good (and politically wise) to get directorate members to do detailed reviews, but an AD doesn't always have that luxury, and sometimes an AD has to dig fairly deeply into a document in order to make sense of the (sometimes conflicting) reviews and Last Call comments anyway. The buck really does stop with the IESG and IMO they're the ones in the best positions to be making the final decisions - partly because they are likely to have broad views, and partly because about the only thing that gives them any "steering" capability is the fact that they're the ones doing the final signoff. > Afterall: that's the skill that they demonstrated so well that it got them "promoted". I believe that AD and WG chair require somewhat different skill sets.   If I were on nomcom I'd be looking for ADs who have demonstrated cat herding expertise and are conversant in multiple technical subject areas.   A WG chair can be a specialist; an AD needs to be a generalist. Keith From nobody Wed Nov 6 16:03:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BACB12008F for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 16:03:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JZTfib-fEi6X for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 16:03:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 504E9120025 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 16:03:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A89D921321; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 19:03:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 19:03:33 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=b5C4R+0SqLfw+cWyoax+UNykuiQKkfb7aHuJtDA+N ro=; b=bX4RhuQtIYaBivRPp9Yt9r240D5nonwQAr0IlLiEXO59l0vrniNKHXTkx zgu+SQ51Gd98l7EverpaGZzvzq6n1nQSQWsCs3pjpoh/KAorGi+jZts8j0rWfkqF V/yj2Tw8kK2sUs8uTgnq5XqcD1cGeGYB5tgJBbeUSYpVyGYiDEgFdwtcuTQK6nxF NCxtUvwDHwXHhfb6ewoeuLHM5aJQhel9ziHQAc+LpCuoMPv80fE7kvKO7HWhWZHe 1MgPHKAc4NRkt+WljMIqiiD8RkZA3FqncHwahtJb3zOiEv4rUcZikYTh/bPYEOiC M/EA6SWCwKEEGCq03oGoUIZTGdLCQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedruddukedgudejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtje ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrud ehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghr vghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 343F63060062; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 19:03:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <20191.1573054128@localhost> <15BCDF05-FB13-45D2-A5DF-70618EBA1A5A@gmail.com> <7A9BF54C-7B7F-41C4-8C74-B23166405776@akamai.com> <8278E6B0-7855-4340-9CD3-0D7F38FDEDB6@akamai.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <2f2b04ca-51ee-771e-f584-f754bf6bd844@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 19:03:32 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8278E6B0-7855-4340-9CD3-0D7F38FDEDB6@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 00:03:36 -0000 On 11/6/19 12:53 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: > The intent is that if you know your name is going to "forever" be associated with an RFC, you will probably be incented to do good work on it. No matter how much care you take, if you're around long enough to see your work used for decades, there will probably be some embarrassing "gold stars" in your past. Keith From nobody Wed Nov 6 16:43:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54705120105 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 16:43:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 027CfUNl6aGo for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 16:43:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x436.google.com (mail-pf1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A259120045 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 16:43:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x436.google.com with SMTP id r4so707247pfl.7 for ; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 16:43:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WrjRN41v0nqibhPrTL7/eAtygOPFHFoZoBJPsrkpqC4=; b=YFP7EmTeGIECSmXYSqwjA+AIylSTCbmBAb0FD9rUN57L4CC4ljArXN32LrL1bjff2t +bywbwU2ix0odrQBby8cDobO4BMFZHJr873KIRaB2B9u2t3C5BtmfMEaz4ZbhYykHs2l Jl64qaOmCBa+YvE9LYa/uDX7eviXgd/bG/lSNNWBjYc1YcA7JBdWmd+4PwWwjwLd2N1/ qBO8XycoOcB7Tz/mbbiEE3maA2n/+nqAUeNKaxtEoJ9II1LQETZzi5as9AXNSBnkL2tq lqB4+OMBGDdO3eopKfAImoC05thgFVTa9Cf5YUBAksKVUzjJ3Gnvi4i5FdSjSQGtJ4EZ mudg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=WrjRN41v0nqibhPrTL7/eAtygOPFHFoZoBJPsrkpqC4=; b=qbTaj973zZ60IE8Qgk7Hpa0mLe1Tl63tS40C1WcguK6x5TrY57eBsQXdSkw4co0KUP VEJ7MTn6Tt81pXIkQ9XkTuOp8yQhFRvPCq2cuGdhdsvF6T5wKWehWXOpkJ79TSXYJ0bD QqdYv+HsUetee9P97rSTureqVuQzgFLYUTGqHoKoj5MsgaCaozSQUwuT20+WhykJTFZU Ag/A6PvTv2YYAOhcdMYpdJo+O7TmxVfHba/gLYemWwoDulFQmu3wXANKGkVFbR7RXdK/ SF1Y6GGXAoFM1InuCjNqYqtCMcf3Gui7fYuWfF3ns/D0xU9C4f2xIKCSmppqML2L6ZwQ kPvw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXVnc9NsPa7KPQDUwDygQ8xK0Xe68aH7nfgt1zLYlsYdFtnHii9 RVrKGyLaPuhToLsLM4v/Y1Ew2jYU X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwa+r0euG4rnmQL9rGg4vFozoNbCrA+o7RExPG6EYIWy1qGk+SQVt3Dcdk+vgP9p8eeIPWb0g== X-Received: by 2002:a62:4e96:: with SMTP id c144mr258704pfb.45.1573087399712; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 16:43:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (8.166.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.166.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v14sm176368pfe.94.2019.11.06.16.43.17 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 16:43:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] To: Keith Moore , ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:43:17 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 00:43:22 -0000 On 07-Nov-19 12:01, Keith Moore wrote: > On 11/6/19 5:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >=20 >> Here's a thought experiment. >> >> Update the standards process such that the approval of Proposed Standa= rd >> RFCs, after an IETF last call including some specified cross-area revi= ew >> requirements, is done by the WG consensus process with the consent of = the AD . >=20 > I don't think a typical WG chair is in a good position to review things= =20 > from a broad perspective.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The ADs are in a MUCH better posi= tion to do=20 > that, precisely because they are exposed to everything that IETF does. But it doesn't scale, or so the ADs are telling us. And my thought experiment wouldn't take ADs out of the loop; it would take them out of the detailed review work. =C2=A0=C2=A0=20 > Also, the WG chairs are properly concerned with the specific perspectiv= e=20 > of their WGs; they know where the hard battles were fought.=C2=A0=C2=A0= Their WG=20 > needs them to be in a position to defend the WG's work.=C2=A0=C2=A0 To = expect them=20 > to do both that and the broad review would put them in a conflicted=20 > position, and it's probably the broad review that would get shortchange= d. That's why the idea would be to make the WG chairs the *visible* approver= s, which IMHO would significantly change their incentives. I certainly agree= with the idea of naming the WG Chairs, the AD and the reviewers in the published RFC: "Here are the people you should complain to: ..." just as much as "Here are the people who share the glory: ...". Brian From nobody Wed Nov 6 17:20:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4850B1208F4 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 17:20:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id alLw_rbOgzM4 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 17:20:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27DF31208E6 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 17:20:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF828210B8; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 20:20:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 20:20:18 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=0v6Q8kW04MqKnXmadmge7rRb/7oe10TU3OBqwho8P U4=; b=lGTWUgplaD2p83oCEg0GkxNRXGDjUJ8UUst6VJB+WsfHI6EKh6iOceYaB HbpsDmOA41NyJwLZ+awAf3fzKj1ucI+/rU0joCeaHIlHzhqaa57ko6n9PY0G19Sw S/0++fLrSatbRcrzB9dBKnkMw3U+5+D5vvMwFYwmgXexVUp8+tGxD8sIEkYwF9AX RrLTcHMkQfbVEOK0l/vigjsewFkDmk5AcJYZ7BE/CNDhvhi6PCphiSfuH9IqdAt8 Tny8gC+EVibzawTPy/C7FDWgE7T0CmKMlarCUMXjDzfKCfIc+8PL8ltgVDBCJxxv 1DUL80Lf5Abg4cWgfUK8raQNJ4+BQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedruddukedgfedvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrud ehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghr vghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 67C9E306005F; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 20:20:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 20:20:15 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 01:20:25 -0000 On 11/6/19 7:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 07-Nov-19 12:01, Keith Moore wrote: >> On 11/6/19 5:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >>> Here's a thought experiment. >>> >>> Update the standards process such that the approval of Proposed Standard >>> RFCs, after an IETF last call including some specified cross-area review >>> requirements, is done by the WG consensus process with the consent of the AD . >> I don't think a typical WG chair is in a good position to review things >> from a broad perspective.   The ADs are in a MUCH better position to do >> that, precisely because they are exposed to everything that IETF does. > But it doesn't scale, or so the ADs are telling us. I believe them :) Or to put it differently:  I don't think it scales so long as there is essentially no pushback on chartering any WG for which there appears to be community interest. Note that there's not a contradiction there.  The ADs really are in the best position to review things from a broad perspective. AND with the current number of working groups and number of drafts that they're producing, there's too much work for the ADs to do. But to me it looks like what doesn't scale is the community expectation that IETF should take on every WG for which there seems to be public interest, and those WGs should be able to produce as many drafts as they wish, with no page limit on those drafts. (I'm not saying that there can't be some middle ground, some optimization of what's currently being done.   But I do believe that the organization needs to take a good hard look at its expectations for output and for "fairness" in what IETF takes on, and think about what the Internet needs from IETF rather than about what individuals and companies want IETF to do for them.) It's long been clear to me that there's an inherent limit to the extent to which the IETF structure can scale, for several reasons other than just AD workload.   And to me that forces some hard questions about both the volume and scope of IETF's work.     IMO IETF should focus on producing fewer but higher quality and more relevant RFCs, rather than priding itself on the sheer number of RFCs produced. > And my thought > experiment wouldn't take ADs out of the loop; it would take them out > of the detailed review work. It would also take away the tremendously valuable perspective that they acquire as the result of doing (some of) that work.   We would soon be left without anyone who could really do a good job at broad review. Or maybe the thing to do is to make directorates more formal and more recognized, and expand their roles a bit.   Maybe we should explicitly look at (some?) directorates as the places to cultivate broad expertise (others might still have narrower focus).   Then have the directorates tasked with not just reviewing documents and making recommendations about them, but also other things - e.g. analyses of problem spaces and tussles - that would inform AD decisions and also feed-forward to WGs.   The buck would still stop with IESG but they'd have more explicit support. >> Also, the WG chairs are properly concerned with the specific perspective >> of their WGs; they know where the hard battles were fought.   Their WG >> needs them to be in a position to defend the WG's work.   To expect them >> to do both that and the broad review would put them in a conflicted >> position, and it's probably the broad review that would get shortchanged. > That's why the idea would be to make the WG chairs the *visible* approvers, > which IMHO would significantly change their incentives. Yes, but then they wouldn't be in a good position to support the WGs.   A chair can't be both in the trenches in a WG AND be a reasonably objective reviewer from a broad perspective.   Either they're separate people, or we just give up on our notion of rough consensus because nobody would be in a good position to evaluate it. Keith From nobody Wed Nov 6 17:49:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5749312006E for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 17:49:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uBsz-Py5fMbD for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 17:49:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from azure.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (azure.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB681120045 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 17:49:00 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0AB26A12FF; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 01:48:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a99.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-85-194.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.85.194]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 602E66A12FA; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 01:48:59 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a99.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Thu, 07 Nov 2019 01:48:59 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Dime-Print: 539847ca4ddd26cc_1573091339666_2846700390 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1573091339666:539043884 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1573091339666 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a99.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a99.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A08DF80D9B; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 17:48:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=kJziLff3YwWeRI xR5uoG6JE8DSo=; b=ELBmFJghB6JNVc3RXy+vHA/TizEH/723hwfbGScLhaxit0 RixeyfpjH/PzBT3yXVf5D5wj8cuIpuQwD7SirzeZ5uZNVU4m0XpySNFh7ad5WiEn oQQTAMdSdo6vrxhmAcsGMOfwTYLRffNANg+mUAddqqVSWfJmF91i5NN4dSGpE= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a99.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5D64E80D8C; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 17:48:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 19:48:49 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a99 From: Nico Williams To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Bob Hinden , Ralph Droms , Alexey Melnikov , IETF , Michael Richardson Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] Message-ID: <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> References: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 01:49:03 -0000 On Thu, Nov 07, 2019 at 11:54:59AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Here's a thought experiment. > > Update the standards process such that the approval of Proposed Standard > RFCs, after an IETF last call including some specified cross-area review > requirements, is done by the WG consensus process with the consent of the AD . > > Why would that work? Because it now incents the WG chairs by making them, > in effect, where the buck stops. So the WG chairs and AD (typically > a committee of three) will feel the obligation to get everything > right. And it scales. So, no more IESG review? What would we need the IESG for anymore? It would be gone, I guess? Sure, it will scale better. But quality will suffer. > [...]. So the WG chairs and AD (typically a committee of three) [...] Typically one of the ADs is uninvolved with a WG for which the other is responsible, so that would be a committee of two, not three. Nico -- From nobody Wed Nov 6 18:25:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E23131200F3 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 18:25:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ozdpB66Ch9_u for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 18:25:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x635.google.com (mail-pl1-x635.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::635]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1185812008F for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 18:25:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x635.google.com with SMTP id y24so356156plr.12 for ; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 18:25:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EpBrku2KMVwdcffinPKyrpa+8GMmfAUyhiN6HwL4mwM=; b=NN1dP6JiXLCYAidx8LahQ9cRnM330uHM8peOcqEO3/vngRtn6NkYt+iRh4nOPRfhvA /GTvcx6yow5bFvJ4pGRuQu3J5kCOIIW64eZ/StlpjX+UO5ff624Lq3Dleka01s3oqeiL ezUSg9Lab0M9N3voS1BsVt0UmESb4Jriq+IeZmOCt0bDoUlWyA8Hh0xdGmfbzsUOYob6 gX2cv3ivcuiGi+EZLlZZwz4XgANmMW2y8jfE2vvAfdQv1McpVbce/H1kUpFCUQ3sNHex N8o3ar+4LpB9kW4WoFwUFRydAYui+53oq6hFWpB5ovA8UKFsoRw23YNJelaqCpekIqhG SSkA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=EpBrku2KMVwdcffinPKyrpa+8GMmfAUyhiN6HwL4mwM=; b=PZpu9kHPyNYUVvszF8RASkzK5xs/5IJ6BJaZfepiYzb3Gm8/V9lXVAMVquLlOpXuFq OdSakRPTnnZ/gdiFJULRcGH2iAK8voihLvXQ2dJ8ZvKrUBOk4/4uxZJuZVwHn61HAk3c r1ZqsVkOVUC6oRE8xKxFCBPQvJ1jmM33LP09GeSNGuh0RNYc5WtLCnJE8V2BhX4I2OxP UZwYrbf8H2SLXk4yS9L2qFtO5QKfaPaOS2Npb7hQyqomgaUxPgK8p7ggL4WMp8uyF7Fw ijCZVycVKMd6DG/mTsjB3TwGYzoP+noBae6f/WyiwPwcbgJsh0xO+uPxJPPJ1BeVwBu0 6dTA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW7CkEFyyXUDHtY7hVI4p9aymS37mOUSXD3f/5gMGQjcNqRTDUi 3KlJqbFab+TtJCOQpa/+0N8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxnNVjH8i/vokyOxQ14idqIpHMuUSnkGIohnORcjnC9Fojz8Sd76QOfKI7oQmduDW7ca0tAyg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:6b4c:: with SMTP id g12mr1077301plt.78.1573093544136; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 18:25:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (8.166.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.166.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m65sm5463416pje.3.2019.11.06.18.25.41 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 18:25:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] To: Nico Williams Cc: Bob Hinden , Ralph Droms , Alexey Melnikov , IETF , Michael Richardson References: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:25:40 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 02:25:47 -0000 On 07-Nov-19 14:48, Nico Williams wrote: > On Thu, Nov 07, 2019 at 11:54:59AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Here's a thought experiment. >> >> Update the standards process such that the approval of Proposed Standard >> RFCs, after an IETF last call including some specified cross-area review >> requirements, is done by the WG consensus process with the consent of the AD . >> >> Why would that work? Because it now incents the WG chairs by making them, >> in effect, where the buck stops. So the WG chairs and AD (typically >> a committee of three) will feel the obligation to get everything >> right. And it scales. > > So, no more IESG review? What would we need the IESG for anymore? It > would be gone, I guess? Not at all. Firstly, I said *Proposed* Standard. The experiment would leave the IESG in charge for Internet Standard. (Also for documents submitted outside the WG process, which is rare of course.) And the criterion is still IETF rough consensus following an IETF last call. Just trying to eliminate a manifest bottleneck. Secondly, they'd still be the authority for chartering, appointing WG chairs, appointing directorates, and other aspects of overseeing the process. Most of the duties described in RFC 2026 in fact. > Sure, it will scale better. But quality will suffer. And maybe some documents will spend fewer than, say, 2 years in MISSREF. Speed vs quality is indeed a trade-off. In the era of rapid prototyping our timescale really looks pretty stupid. >> [...]. So the WG chairs and AD (typically a committee of three) [...] > > Typically one of the ADs is uninvolved with a WG for which the other is > responsible, so that would be a committee of two, not three. Two WG chairs is almost the norm these days. But yes, the essence of the experiment is to reduce the number of people in the decision process - and intentionally lower the bar for Proposed Standard closer to how it's defined in RFC2026: A Proposed Standard specification is generally stable, has resolved known design choices, is believed to be well-understood, has received significant community review, and appears to enjoy enough community interest to be considered valuable. However, further experience might result in a change or even retraction of the specification before it advances. When I look at some the DISCUSSes I've seen in recent months, I really don't think that definition is being applied. I would also add to my thought experiment a mandatory Implementation Status section. That's stronger than RFC2026. Brian From nobody Wed Nov 6 18:50:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B502112008F for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 18:50:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aFRdoVECHeq9 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 18:50:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68578120041 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 18:50:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1582A21236; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 21:50:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 21:50:27 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=E2Doxb MbWY+Ee9iaWHRVcAVwSTub4hgcOuKVzAnDYcQ=; b=uESNU5/TayJui5NLsu99yr 80kDC3kMsEDupg2HMekRCJ+ehR+XM+UlZbiRA9MSr1Ll9/XPZQ/TCeNLgqzWwJKW D8O0aSqcq57hobM8AXISiB7PicfDBMbKJlctchO5oP3aWibjtmKHohhEl9B1kUr6 1kEYBvzAJIv2tjm6unHF8QW4X/oC6cOnyVOLlqA7zJM5SChngCwvCJkP7zcYT27h G9TQoC/pF3gVustxTXgWV8X0dKehdq87Vfe5hCm3lZ7q4sqcddbg8iQZ/yaF6unz r+jGqtFFz6uTShJG/gw/al8XbFYG03QMs+cZ182bAeGDTrNkOF/2zbcdlltCxwHg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedruddukedghedtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgesrgdtre ertdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecukfhppedutdekrddvvddurddukedtrdduhe enucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgv thhitghsrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C4DDD306005E; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 21:50:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] To: ietf@ietf.org References: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <3caeb4cf-b92b-99fd-77df-7b1aef3e2979@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 21:50:23 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------CBB39B8190DD94405A18B7E5" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 02:50:31 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------CBB39B8190DD94405A18B7E5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/6/19 9:25 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Two WG chairs is almost the norm these days. But yes, the essence of > the experiment is to reduce the number of people in the decision > process - and intentionally lower the bar for Proposed Standard closer > to how it's defined in RFC2026: But 2026 criteria assumed a three-stage standards track.   Now we're down to two stages in theory, and still usually just one stage in practice.   As far as I can tell, getting rid of Draft Standard hasn't done anything to make Proposed Standard less of a terminal state and more of a stepping-stone. > A Proposed Standard specification is generally stable, has resolved > known design choices, is believed to be well-understood, has received > significant community review, and appears to enjoy enough community > interest to be considered valuable. However, further experience > might result in a change or even retraction of the specification > before it advances. RFC2026 also says: Implementors should treat Proposed Standards as immature specifications. It is desirable to implement them in order to gain experience and to validate, test, and clarify the specification. However, since the content of Proposed Standards may be changed if problems are found or better solutions are identified,/*deploying implementations of such standards into a disruption-sensitive environment is not recommended.*/ (emphasis mine) This is where the biggest disconnect between 2026 and reality is.   If the reality is that industry is going to deploy implementations at Proposed Standard or sooner (and as far as I can tell, that's been reality for as long as there's been an Internet "industry"), it makes sense for IETF to recognize that and react accordingly. If we want there to be a prototype "just for testing" status, it should probably be called something other than Proposed - the name has come to mean something else in IETF context.   And we should deliberately change one or more protocol elements to make the standard incompatible with already-deployed implementations.   The trick would be to keep that information from leaking out beforehand.    Maybe give the RSE /N/ options for things to change that are selected at random, similarly to the way nomcoms are selected. Also, the WG completion, IESG approval and RFC publication dates of a new standard should be determined well in advance so that vendors can tailor their product development schedules to those dates.   This would mean holding WGs, IESG, and the RSE to a schedule (gasp!) once there was confidence that the document would be standardized (another argument for broad review well prior to Last Call.)  I'm not saying that there could absolutely be no slippage, but reality should be close enough that developers can plan by it. But my guess is that the only way to get buy-in for Prototype specifications would be to convincingly promise faster development. Keith --------------CBB39B8190DD94405A18B7E5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 11/6/19 9:25 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

Two WG chairs is almost the norm these days. But yes, the essence of
the experiment is to reduce the number of people in the decision
process - and intentionally lower the bar for Proposed Standard closer
to how it's defined in RFC2026:

But 2026 criteria assumed a three-stage standards track.   Now we're down to two stages in theory, and still usually just one stage in practice.   As far as I can tell, getting rid of Draft Standard hasn't done anything to make Proposed Standard less of a terminal state and more of a stepping-stone.   

   A Proposed Standard specification is generally stable, has resolved
   known design choices, is believed to be well-understood, has received
   significant community review, and appears to enjoy enough community
   interest to be considered valuable.  However, further experience
   might result in a change or even retraction of the specification
   before it advances.
RFC2026 also says:
   Implementors should treat Proposed Standards as immature
   specifications.  It is desirable to implement them in order to gain
   experience and to validate, test, and clarify the specification.
   However, since the content of Proposed Standards may be changed if
   problems are found or better solutions are identified, deploying
   implementations of such standards into a disruption-sensitive
   environment is not recommended.

(emphasis mine)

This is where the biggest disconnect between 2026 and reality is.   If the reality is that industry is going to deploy implementations at Proposed Standard or sooner (and as far as I can tell, that's been reality for as long as there's been an Internet "industry"), it makes sense for IETF to recognize that and react accordingly.

If we want there to be a prototype "just for testing" status, it should probably be called something other than Proposed - the name has come to mean something else in IETF context.   And we should deliberately change one or more protocol elements to make the standard incompatible with already-deployed implementations.   The trick would be to keep that information from leaking out beforehand.    Maybe give the RSE N options for things to change that are selected at random, similarly to the way nomcoms are selected.

Also, the WG completion, IESG approval and RFC publication dates of a new standard should be determined well in advance so that vendors can tailor their product development schedules to those dates.   This would mean holding WGs, IESG, and the RSE to a schedule (gasp!) once there was confidence that the document would be standardized (another argument for broad review well prior to Last Call.)  I'm not saying that there could absolutely be no slippage, but reality should be close enough that developers can plan by it.

But my guess is that the only way to get buy-in for Prototype specifications would be to convincingly promise faster development.

Keith


--------------CBB39B8190DD94405A18B7E5-- From nobody Wed Nov 6 21:02:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D02E0120041 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 21:02:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SxtFLfQWRvla for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 21:02:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from brown.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (brown.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EB52120033 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 21:02:34 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EDAD1413BE; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 05:02:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a82.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-8-64.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.8.64]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 03FC9141752; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 05:02:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a82.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Thu, 07 Nov 2019 05:02:33 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Illegal-Macabre: 0400a9f809a027d4_1573102953305_3366770158 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1573102953304:3025119303 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1573102953304 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a82.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a82.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7282A0E06; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 21:02:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=VXvuD7HhXNesrW eFdr3ToauqFZ8=; b=Vuq94Hk15Nmxak2pM/Gw2+UFRg2+qnHQl6//Bx0smm0aWG dMyTKkKBAyDpyejim9A9ympy0gahIWXiEESPrTqUOrThmeD1Lqjb+iWOc1QXCSNk rVkL/z61u4N1kS0jn1ehDt30xAdiSPE+X5y4uKKVbQRuIqQkarhq3sMLWSGtc= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a82.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 75F72A1125; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 21:02:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 23:02:22 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a82 From: Nico Williams To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Bob Hinden , Ralph Droms , Alexey Melnikov , IETF , Michael Richardson Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] Message-ID: <20191107050221.GD12148@localhost> References: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 05:02:36 -0000 On Thu, Nov 07, 2019 at 03:25:40PM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 07-Nov-19 14:48, Nico Williams wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 07, 2019 at 11:54:59AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> Here's a thought experiment. > >> > >> Update the standards process such that the approval of Proposed Standard > >> RFCs, after an IETF last call including some specified cross-area review > >> requirements, is done by the WG consensus process with the consent of the AD . > >> > >> Why would that work? Because it now incents the WG chairs by making them, > >> in effect, where the buck stops. So the WG chairs and AD (typically > >> a committee of three) will feel the obligation to get everything > >> right. And it scales. > > > > So, no more IESG review? What would we need the IESG for anymore? It > > would be gone, I guess? > > Not at all. Firstly, I said *Proposed* Standard. The experiment would leave > the IESG in charge for Internet Standard. (Also for documents submitted > outside the WG process, which is rare of course.) And the criterion is > still IETF rough consensus following an IETF last call. Just trying > to eliminate a manifest bottleneck. When most of our documents are PS -when PS is the new Standard!- this really does mean doing away with IESG review. Nothing obligates anyone to do the work to move PS to DS and then S. > Secondly, they'd still be the authority for chartering, appointing > WG chairs, appointing directorates, and other aspects of overseeing > the process. Most of the duties described in RFC 2026 in fact. Sure, but picking good chairs now becomes essential, but finding chairs as good as ADs will be difficult. > > Sure, it will scale better. But quality will suffer. > > And maybe some documents will spend fewer than, say, 2 years in MISSREF. > Speed vs quality is indeed a trade-off. In the era of rapid prototyping > our timescale really looks pretty stupid. Perhaps so. But then we'd better find a way to incentivize moving PS docs to DS and S, or give up the fiction. > >> [...]. So the WG chairs and AD (typically a committee of three) [...] > > > > Typically one of the ADs is uninvolved with a WG for which the other is > > responsible, so that would be a committee of two, not three. > > Two WG chairs is almost the norm these days. But yes, the essence of > the experiment is to reduce the number of people in the decision > process - and intentionally lower the bar for Proposed Standard closer > to how it's defined in RFC2026: > A Proposed Standard specification is generally stable, has resolved > known design choices, is believed to be well-understood, has received > significant community review, and appears to enjoy enough community > interest to be considered valuable. However, further experience > might result in a change or even retraction of the specification > before it advances. > When I look at some the DISCUSSes I've seen in recent months, I really > don't think that definition is being applied. That's a fair observation. But, too, we could ask the IESG to take a lighter approach to publication as PS. > I would also add to my thought experiment a mandatory Implementation > Status section. That's stronger than RFC2026. Implementation Status for PS? But that will drag us into the I-D stability thread all over again -- it's a catch-22: how can we develop a protocol, implement it, and test it but not deploy it (despite a very strong market desire for it) without some sort of I-D stability mechanism? Nico -- From nobody Wed Nov 6 21:34:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D55EC1200FA for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 21:34:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MaNujPGm6EXO for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 21:34:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0DDC1200F3 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 21:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id v8so783127ljh.5 for ; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 21:34:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=WyaWJiACrsef/eEjzzw1SycCDMJmHAyDVSVg/VlA+no=; b=ynbOwOYkQV71sqYPlUzqbmm9GgcbNIU7aRfSlAg+C6vrsRgsmWJi4elFKFvUHRmwCr G6tLE1v+xZQ6z8nhNMlSHgxUPdilkvkLS6M8sZE0Miru2QXgqvTaGOV1HFi8vY8jYmog 0nZsiFcYhTdeUzaZYN8OnIu3QrxNw1tSrElgRPFidcV9LIYyzmJma/IxiYuCqQwyub/4 ugaTh3zaU/aEKgLPrX/v1BQyNgMIsnIKa8YsebFWFB9cqKQsdztcrVTK5jDjRXM4LoSy 3Ig//P1zRpdEk9gIijsqBUMPGTOjlyuzHThUiflunNlk158fFKnGiLOjGHV47YPCUbE1 Qa4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=WyaWJiACrsef/eEjzzw1SycCDMJmHAyDVSVg/VlA+no=; b=r8W4c9Iw+9yMK2p3naZnjvbjtpoV8RhyZ5I0UUQGHGBO2Cctlt2g49a4FS6G/2k+NG mJjhi2mX+7fo7Vnty5FrxWneXFO8UFUXMh+NfM+a6gwM+bhRN/XgczWsVPCxfl2+We1/ +bg0lUnxuCtbL4LK84YJRodAzr5I7oGQXvMxZxH7YDFRvCzcAM8UK4p8Y+i8ajAt8mx1 VIPu1r1HqQPMkuuenyqyJd7ioyYK262SAd8t0pmLt/kH2ygHooKeICQXMIjJCNLLMJr8 26bMUQnvNYYera+qzGRinqGfObMRPDB40mcT9gyLzdILO2HtpfIMKW+HVo5QfH91EAOe qCSA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXbtdEIp1mcujvj62jBhO4vXde8gOnucCqmaX5h83RLUURomVh4 ysf2p0w+z3b7GqDj8E331LAbJg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzo7swZbT3epn/PkKOWpYFlkX/6kF1iHvr/X5Z+CV4B63gZrkVpYCzz2NAMv9fQl95qSKTxcA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:28a:: with SMTP id b10mr790783ljo.193.1573104870769; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 21:34:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2a00:801:427:ae20:808e:437c:815e:c70? ([2a00:801:427:ae20:808e:437c:815e:c70]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l82sm562452lfd.81.2019.11.06.21.34.29 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 21:34:30 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Leif Johansson Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 06:34:28 +0100 Message-Id: <563174A8-3961-476C-889D-A712EFD5DAEA@mnt.se> References: <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Michael Richardson , Alexey Melnikov , Bob Hinden , IETF In-Reply-To: <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> To: Nico Williams X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A878) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 05:34:35 -0000 Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone > 7 nov. 2019 kl. 02:49 skrev Nico Williams : >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Thu, Nov 07, 2019 at 11:54:59AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote= : >> Here's a thought experiment. >>=20 >> Update the standards process such that the approval of Proposed Standard >> RFCs, after an IETF last call including some specified cross-area review >> requirements, is done by the WG consensus process with the consent of the= AD . >>=20 >> Why would that work? Because it now incents the WG chairs by making them,= >> in effect, where the buck stops. So the WG chairs and AD (typically >> a committee of three) will feel the obligation to get everything >> right. And it scales. >=20 > So, no more IESG review? What would we need the IESG for anymore? It > would be gone, I guess? >=20 > Sure, it will scale better. But quality will suffer. >=20 Why do you think that would be the case? >> [...]. So the WG chairs and AD (typically a committee of three) [...] >=20 > Typically one of the ADs is uninvolved with a WG for which the other is > responsible, so that would be a committee of two, not three. >=20 > Nico > --=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 7 01:47:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B1E1200F7 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 01:47:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.768 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.768 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, SPOOFED_FREEMAIL=1.999] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sWFUaCi7MFHm for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 01:47:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63F221200DB for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 01:47:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id xA79l8R9015690 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 10:47:08 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 78DE62050C0 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 10:47:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C8012016C6 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 10:47:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id xA79l8aR010004 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 10:47:08 +0100 To: IETF Discussion From: Alexandre Petrescu Subject: test ignore - html anchor for future non-html emails Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 10:47:08 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------C11117D38F43EB0CA7DEFDC0" Content-Language: fr Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 09:47:12 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C11117D38F43EB0CA7DEFDC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is a test message using html editing.  Please ignore it. I send it because I need a neutral anchor in the archive to reply to when I send non-html emails. I use a default identity with html editing (because the office work), and my MUA cant start a new thread with a non-html message.  It needs some email to reply to and only then change the Identity using a non-html message. I want to pick a particular email to reply to (this anchor), and not someone else's, so there's little risk of confusion induced by the Message-ID. Alex --------------C11117D38F43EB0CA7DEFDC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

This is a test message using html editing.  Please ignore it.

I send it because I need a neutral anchor in the archive to reply to when I send non-html emails. 

I use a default identity with html editing (because the office work), and my MUA cant start a new thread with a non-html message.  It needs some email to reply to and only then change the Identity using a non-html message.

I want to pick a particular email to reply to (this anchor), and not someone else's, so there's little risk of confusion induced by the Message-ID.

Alex

--------------C11117D38F43EB0CA7DEFDC0-- From nobody Thu Nov 7 04:04:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBEC5120143 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 04:04:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2Z5DlL1130t7 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 04:04:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 891F1120096 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 04:04:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id xA7C4IHC005139 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:04:18 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 2C2E2205471 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:04:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22BE120541F for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:04:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id xA7C4InQ020802 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:04:18 +0100 Subject: make IPR declaration on IETF site but targeted at another SDO? From: Alexandre Petrescu To: IETF Discussion References: Message-ID: <7cfd2569-06d3-8562-6f73-b21d131db6d9@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:04:18 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 12:04:22 -0000 Hi, IETFers, I would like to ask whether it is allowed to make an IPR declaration on the IETF site, but dedicated for use mainly on another SDO? I am in a delicate situation: I am a co-author on a patent application that I value. The technology is using IP protocols. The SDO where I suggest the use of this technology (ETSI ITS) needs an IPR declaration; but they require the creation of an account on the web prior to accepting the declaration. I have problems making that account because of reasons difficult to explain (organizational internal). So, I would like to make that declaration here at IETF, and give ETSI the URL of the public declaration that is at IETF. Do you think that is possible? Or is it forbidden to use IETF IPR site for other SDOs? Alex From nobody Thu Nov 7 04:27:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46ED2120227 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 04:27:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VkctY9xK1c8J for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 04:27:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from emh03.mail.saunalahti.fi (emh03.mail.saunalahti.fi [62.142.5.109]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2FDE120178 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 04:27:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from eggert.org (unknown [62.248.255.8]) by emh03.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 208C540067; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 14:27:32 +0200 (EET) Received: from slate.eggert.org (Slate.eggert.org [172.19.235.111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7BE538C0D89; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 14:27:27 +0200 (EET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) Subject: Re: make IPR declaration on IETF site but targeted at another SDO? From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: <7cfd2569-06d3-8562-6f73-b21d131db6d9@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 14:27:27 +0200 Cc: IETF Discussion Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <26C8E34F-4AAC-4CA2-B54D-AD3C57CA03C0@eggert.org> References: <7cfd2569-06d3-8562-6f73-b21d131db6d9@gmail.com> To: Alexandre Petrescu X-MailScanner-ID: 7BE538C0D89.A49E5 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 12:27:36 -0000 Hi, You can only declare IPR *on an IETF contribution*. So once you have = contributed your thing in some form, you can (should) declare IPR on it. = Contributions include email, etc. See the Note Well. Lars On 2019-11-7, at 14:04, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >=20 > Hi, IETFers, >=20 > I would like to ask whether it is allowed to make an IPR declaration = on > the IETF site, but dedicated for use mainly on another SDO? >=20 > I am in a delicate situation: I am a co-author on a patent application > that I value. The technology is using IP protocols. The SDO where I > suggest the use of this technology (ETSI ITS) needs an IPR = declaration; > but they require the creation of an account on the web prior to > accepting the declaration. I have problems making that account = because > of reasons difficult to explain (organizational internal). >=20 > So, I would like to make that declaration here at IETF, and give ETSI > the URL of the public declaration that is at IETF. >=20 > Do you think that is possible? Or is it forbidden to use IETF IPR = site > for other SDOs? >=20 > Alex >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 7 06:39:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF32B120824 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 06:39:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xtUihGmRKjYK for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 06:39:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x830.google.com (mail-qt1-x830.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::830]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99FDD120232 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 06:39:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x830.google.com with SMTP id l24so2582947qtp.10 for ; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 06:39:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/EN7mHaHyy8F1NPAiZZG5JjMmtHYr74HANrCb/B3meQ=; b=BX6JZNbt00GhNAdcoV/OO1/UOppe6Z0YqqUl0Gji3LJyOTK1T89utyhoa0MAatb0Xl bb3y0ha38DMieztS4YQtuu670Ne9azuIx16haNZ3ghxnJukWwABKWUf0+WO1puTfx7dy 5/ApUb2pjBZz2NBpPL+rwJMLetW421e9whdme3ftT6w6xl7XPKUXSwN80+K2WkoKdcUT b86T6GfcO95CvhOzx1ghLznZuhgpaK5+CgAVuQm5ItrWOuwpAKIngduO8vY5NdyMTWCL cKTPA2BoHFQT+lCRDd3BQ56sxcTpw51t+oiPEjWNi99kGW6Z4artcBTel1a8jhcc+YcE oGdw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/EN7mHaHyy8F1NPAiZZG5JjMmtHYr74HANrCb/B3meQ=; b=CGoq3YAjt9OrIlh4TXr5bjvGMVkSoRZPOxHYdVP1mue9PuFYi0AqKU+CXaDlRsfMZK HpYDuYtXja9S0nANCSCVDLoTx9YCIaING1X2INV6CyUmhgGcCjkyWBDJmorKQkUhdpww e/AjRUd8rplfk4rID1Asp/kNmhLR/zEVg65h1DWw7+pCAEO3acG/igxp/LNl0a90JF9B CrMid2njNyHLSdgJsGls821Ptr712ohDFYfpUCpaEbH6atOS0tDJmvJqA4Qi8hrVdPSm OHgAbbxy3ROfuG4CdPdPHLji1B0WrDOJfUMxbkiowbeyzeOE4mzl0yVGHJnIpf6aidYb UKSg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUg790wts6xC6kI+KLjoXdxZZVtXviN9UyUplak3ma4i5+P/fH4 fCmL/FzsdmRmotmxuGgxJPZs7hK6jAWE0hn/nDw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzvj6fHVhsGOJJ0xWnxm6rHVNApmmfMfdN6ryMmX8AYmiYIPF6C8sZR5LShH4ZlwH3O5ACB9K5d9ZJcrw3m0js= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:f88:: with SMTP id b8mr4199555qtk.382.1573137551542; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 06:39:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7cfd2569-06d3-8562-6f73-b21d131db6d9@gmail.com> <26C8E34F-4AAC-4CA2-B54D-AD3C57CA03C0@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: <26C8E34F-4AAC-4CA2-B54D-AD3C57CA03C0@eggert.org> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 09:39:00 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: make IPR declaration on IETF site but targeted at another SDO? To: Lars Eggert Cc: Alexandre Petrescu , IETF Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f14f8d0596c2a034" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 14:39:15 -0000 --000000000000f14f8d0596c2a034 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Alexandre, If it were me, I would write a short Internet Draft that describes the technology (it's obviously relevant to the IETF since it uses IP). If your ETSI contribution is publicly available, I would include a URL reference in that draft, but it's not necessary, you can also include a reference to the contribution without a URL. Once I've uploaded that draft, I would then create an IPR declaration for it. Cheers, Andy On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 7:28 AM Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > You can only declare IPR *on an IETF contribution*. So once you have > contributed your thing in some form, you can (should) declare IPR on it. > Contributions include email, etc. See the Note Well. > > Lars > > On 2019-11-7, at 14:04, Alexandre Petrescu > wrote: > > > > Hi, IETFers, > > > > I would like to ask whether it is allowed to make an IPR declaration on > > the IETF site, but dedicated for use mainly on another SDO? > > > > I am in a delicate situation: I am a co-author on a patent application > > that I value. The technology is using IP protocols. The SDO where I > > suggest the use of this technology (ETSI ITS) needs an IPR declaration; > > but they require the creation of an account on the web prior to > > accepting the declaration. I have problems making that account because > > of reasons difficult to explain (organizational internal). > > > > So, I would like to make that declaration here at IETF, and give ETSI > > the URL of the public declaration that is at IETF. > > > > Do you think that is possible? Or is it forbidden to use IETF IPR site > > for other SDOs? > > > > Alex > > > > --000000000000f14f8d0596c2a034 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Alexandre,

If it were me, I would write= a short=C2=A0Internet Draft that describes the technology=C2=A0(it's o= bviously relevant to the IETF since it uses IP). If your ETSI contribution = is publicly=C2=A0available, I would include a URL reference in that draft, = but it's not necessary, you can also include a reference to the contrib= ution without a URL. Once I've uploaded that draft, I would then create= an IPR declaration for it.

Cheers,
Andy=


On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 7:28 AM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
Hi,

You can only declare IPR *on an IETF contribution*. So once you have contri= buted your thing in some form, you can (should) declare IPR on it. Contribu= tions include email, etc. See the Note Well.

Lars

On 2019-11-7, at 14:04, Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> = wrote:
>
> Hi, IETFers,
>
> I would like to ask whether it is allowed to make an IPR declaration o= n
> the IETF site, but dedicated for use mainly on another SDO?
>
> I am in a delicate situation: I am a co-author on a patent application=
> that I value.=C2=A0 The technology is using IP protocols.=C2=A0 The SD= O where I
> suggest the use of this technology (ETSI ITS) needs an IPR declaration= ;
> but they require the creation of an account on the web prior to
> accepting the declaration.=C2=A0 I have problems making that account b= ecause
> of reasons difficult to explain (organizational internal).
>
> So, I would like to make that declaration here at IETF, and give ETSI<= br> > the URL of the public declaration that is at IETF.
>
> Do you think that is possible?=C2=A0 Or is it forbidden to use IETF IP= R site
> for other SDOs?
>
> Alex
>

--000000000000f14f8d0596c2a034-- From nobody Thu Nov 7 06:46:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060A1120829 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 06:46:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gWeQvLpiT-FH for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 06:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DB31120824 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 06:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.102] (p548DC893.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.200.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4785p13ssjzySY; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:46:49 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: make IPR declaration on IETF site but targeted at another SDO? From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:46:48 +0100 Cc: Lars Eggert , IETF Discussion X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 594830805.563683-e5fef7d46f2706d00e4a4299936b2680 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <7cfd2569-06d3-8562-6f73-b21d131db6d9@gmail.com> <26C8E34F-4AAC-4CA2-B54D-AD3C57CA03C0@eggert.org> To: "Andrew G. Malis" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 14:46:53 -0000 > On Nov 7, 2019, at 15:39, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >=20 > short Internet Draft This is one of the drawbacks of the moratorium: there are six weeks in = the year where you (effectively) can=E2=80=99t do that. [There should = be a category of Internet-Drafts that are not targeted to a specific = meeting, for which the moratorium does not apply.] Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Nov 7 06:58:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBE6312083B for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 06:58:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SI2sXgz5TSfP for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 06:57:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67C5112082D for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 06:57:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com with SMTP id x14so1014005ybq.12 for ; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 06:57:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=UJ5FxFYU8AJwSA5q7lgx1GRtbNmM1V7142B7SDKBRCA=; b=kxyBRE9AFc8yNSclJBiRnx5ZzVUkWGP0fj4KjXQH7Dl9yxW0Nelz9OTKRU/ckcN1Ys 619IYCehuXmt9YDratpvzarmrQGLUY+hZb4CQD9QJndsinng0K57SxzVrJmsh1wtCF7f GAI7U8WOb6iQT0Q6pQ/pKiqE8BukvSwEZUda4+ROdy/2gtQZEmqlhUesRdGRtrWtNt2p BpK+Q46KomRz9bbN75ls8lcUepg38evaeWVLMSbVDjeAElVAwzRsj/Z9LCDCcA9hKi67 3kxi+k4kj0qgl3DcnMPQANKLGDWjc0OJ7gAfSXu8IOFaRs8JiqZYFnZQEx6e0pHg+2i6 cvZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UJ5FxFYU8AJwSA5q7lgx1GRtbNmM1V7142B7SDKBRCA=; b=kYSPt/awm5EsTwXpW76YjJii/GkuVeu5uExXYMiXOLpk3EZZBfyC2rQr6tZQJE5C9q KmfbHqBxJXNdx/WBFwQr1I6BEXXwuBGha6/wZ73Z6CyMCZMNq8uSw9xu5SRKtGi4WfLK /hHMHWZ5jY2KMW2IENy8maS6qC2Q0h7yfSls84f4aIFK3xpg3M/Kq0AiuiVaKJb0H6a3 JihPsUXp2dJmFEHLAgX76y2UCzUEgmgzJxwcy+wh9z7Yms/cS0pIVayTo22nh9IaxBsD QFUxxiwC7zORcKnhUO8oEZk2Us5s5GFTp4B/E7dL083fWFHpV+N6YoHEVIuzLbYG0cp7 0j+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWK5a+0kIWQNB7Wsx2ByfmYRcNGWW+ULOJ3m2LjYNBcg0LaKYig eWzisOPFn82UywIyAhhXjStc0TMxZiQLRzJU2qw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqweWzPaeGc0PP3vIF+eG2TnbsAx8EHiA9nQ85UScX2vCAMyoX7W/HCqYuRB9mpqeUO3IynIOybvvdP37dIxBZk= X-Received: by 2002:a25:8e12:: with SMTP id p18mr3636387ybl.243.1573138678597; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 06:57:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7cfd2569-06d3-8562-6f73-b21d131db6d9@gmail.com> <26C8E34F-4AAC-4CA2-B54D-AD3C57CA03C0@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org From: Behcet Sarikaya Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 08:57:47 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: make IPR declaration on IETF site but targeted at another SDO? To: Carsten Bormann Cc: "Andrew G. Malis" , IETF Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001ecbbe0596c2e458" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 14:58:01 -0000 --0000000000001ecbbe0596c2e458 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 8:47 AM Carsten Bormann wrote: > > > > On Nov 7, 2019, at 15:39, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > > > short Internet Draft > > This is one of the drawbacks of the moratorium: there are six weeks in th= e > year where you (effectively) can=E2=80=99t do that. [There should be a c= ategory of > Internet-Drafts that are not targeted to a specific meeting, for which th= e > moratorium does not apply.] > > +1 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > --0000000000001ecbbe0596c2e458 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 8:47 AM Carste= n Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:


> On Nov 7, 2019, at 15:39, Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> short Internet Draft

This is one of the drawbacks of the moratorium: there are six weeks in the = year where you (effectively) can=E2=80=99t do that.=C2=A0 [There should be = a category of Internet-Drafts that are not targeted to a specific meeting, = for which the moratorium does not apply.]



+1

=
=C2=A0
Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

--0000000000001ecbbe0596c2e458-- From nobody Thu Nov 7 07:12:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EADA1208A5 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 07:12:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PLlHOHEkcyGk for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 07:12:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.127]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79A921208A1 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 07:12:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0122331.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id xA7F25BO012554; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:10:03 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=FTbPz9ljPu1aCJ4XhnNtQ2wo+x+SWyzx1dCnpE7RMAI=; b=fyCTy3tXrQfINlXp6VepIbT3UgkgRE20MBJsdVq4ZwIUzzlwwDNEoyXiRPL9Yu5ZXfQB /19RuLY3D7Xy0ChHPFSWAm0aTvaYK7mQi1SVzshTaSGQywbi8lfb7QGApS4znTz+qNjP y+SPnn7hrUWrCRBlWzhHVquZe8Msu4ERlKbZIPTGSwfMZ2Mj4k/QUBF1DM53OAipDxtq eoDW9eUfunJfjdVV2hYYL/RC1/6hlJfUetkRduZ29mEnuJSsT0Wy1IdBRy5/V6u+lN/0 iayKHhqutvZnmSlBPnXACedpF5Af6DeOLE+v69aWwgKbe1cUGL7FFNmKcpz0L/jaw3m9 Eg== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint5 (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [184.51.33.60] (may be forged)) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2w41v3vh5s-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 07 Nov 2019 15:10:03 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id xA7F2lhu014389; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 07:10:02 -0800 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.33]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2w420vskk0-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 07 Nov 2019 07:10:02 -0800 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb4.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 10:10:01 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.005; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 10:10:01 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: "Andrew G. Malis" , Lars Eggert CC: IETF Discussion Subject: Re: make IPR declaration on IETF site but targeted at another SDO? Thread-Topic: make IPR declaration on IETF site but targeted at another SDO? 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Thu, 7 Nov 2019 07:18:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.596 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.596 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9gX_DBwh1ahp for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 07:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta7.iomartmail.com (mta7.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.157]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E168A120873 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 07:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs3.iomartmail.com (vs3.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.124]) by mta7.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id xA7FIUqh017505; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:18:36 GMT Received: from vs3.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7735E22084; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:18:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.248]) by vs3.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86258221BB; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:17:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([84.93.96.25]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id xA7FHrSw006447 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:17:54 GMT Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Salz, Rich'" Cc: "'IETF Discussion'" References: <7cfd2569-06d3-8562-6f73-b21d131db6d9@gmail.com> <26C8E34F-4AAC-4CA2-B54D-AD3C57CA03C0@eggert.org> <89F85067-9655-4784-89C2-46D56FE07177@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <89F85067-9655-4784-89C2-46D56FE07177@akamai.com> Subject: RE: make IPR declaration on IETF site but targeted at another SDO? Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:17:52 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <08e601d5957e$8700eb60$9502c220$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_08E7_01D5957E.8700EB60" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQF4cAFYITYdRnyAtIWyQgBd4CS0RQEYV4kqAcFcbcMBhE0DxAJgNK7nqAQq07A= Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 84.93.96.25 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.0.1013-25028.000 X-TM-AS-Result: No--12.123-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--12.123-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.1013-25028.000 X-TMASE-Result: 10--12.123400-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: WMT2WRIkHPPxIbpQ8BhdbPSG/+sPtZVkGbJMFqqIm9wvIIDffuAMV2h/ lsrwJYHDiu/uRpOVBisHlWNpQZcO4ANbVHKTl6TGLIrMljt3advd+v0cJIidHzuwTDpX8ii02hB USVFnHv48++chdv/5WJ7D8rkznA1jlaxA/ohaMll6UYddkosva3Gg2i8sqTTadDwP5ItpCOy56i TVyHHCq8neOErnG+u9r/EwLya77le0CeKFBeer6IEU1kn9F/MZjs/yyyVHGh7Jqq1xSxY7Fuml/ E2CK49bhWQmZZ+uR46behOGCjiLqHYcWUyJqir5RR+qE4iJsIeGUvn89UwyEnu4ox6u4PaGqRZL qCxonKSNKIBh68PaAUFFIgyqPdWn98hoZRVgb5UZS5uxXPxN6cogYxpm9PTbl1O3XymEAd7kakA MW1g/fuLzNWBegCW21WdIO+NJS/kEs/H1wMysplOrNp5VU581+gtHj7OwNO2FR9Hau8GO7n0BNr sHCSBvavaM4pk/w/IAtNP2qWq7M63/rlaIkF6EXzsAERafSIPsW1qpytSHEYVJi7t//lWF+lR+K mj8crb+o1Gd+eolTvWgJ21rFsx3 X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-12:0,22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 15:18:45 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_08E7_01D5957E.8700EB60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Rich, here. =20 Participation in each SDO is subject to the IPR rules of that SDO. = Individuals or their sponsoring organisations need to follow those = rules. =20 Disclosing IPR in one SDO has zero impact on the disclosure of IPR in = another SDO. =20 Consult an attorney or read the rules? =20 Adrian =20 From: ietf On Behalf Of Salz, Rich Sent: 07 November 2019 15:10 To: Andrew G. Malis ; Lars Eggert Cc: IETF Discussion Subject: Re: make IPR declaration on IETF site but targeted at another = SDO? =20 I am much less sympathetic. If the company has a patent, the company = needs to figure out how to disclose that.=20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_08E7_01D5957E.8700EB60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I agree with Rich, = here.

 

Participation in each SDO is = subject to the IPR rules of that SDO. Individuals or their sponsoring = organisations need to follow those rules.

 

Disclosing = IPR in one SDO has zero impact on the disclosure of IPR in another = SDO.

 

Consult an = attorney or read the rules?

 

Adrian

 

From: ietf = <ietf-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Salz, = Rich
Sent: 07 November 2019 15:10
To: Andrew G. = Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>; Lars Eggert = <lars@eggert.org>
Cc: IETF Discussion = <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: make IPR declaration on = IETF site but targeted at another = SDO?

 

I am much less sympathetic. If the company has a patent, = the company needs to figure out how to disclose that. =

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_08E7_01D5957E.8700EB60-- From nobody Thu Nov 7 08:15:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF5CF120904 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 08:15:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9wm1JnqVtY4X for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 08:15:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32b.google.com (mail-wm1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6FAF1208FC for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 08:15:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id b11so3102006wmb.5 for ; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 08:15:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=u3F6RKzwQPQvft3/F4q/Wv0lqAQU67zaIEP1VnDVYqI=; b=Su/Vjme58SmYPn3UJa56cejskqUozYHzUDzpUdOo6T/5GkW1Q3ZZdq6g/u39wAmWX0 NEFHA/rbaJHnfP3SEqpvHMnvkSp+278+7/JXzUTDqNE+zCxEz5wynxSDcA8uBYOIizYk lSU9ehr/50CQamzSbPDkEx8+5kw7HXeTkGjk8pfCcJ29agf4FfRxWmFrNnXBqA5b5ZBB 5XaYHbTx2A7wwUYSfPibrYWMk10BFpEPGgMFGr6aZusZKRDMGAFk02U8xmLcW7pc5Jd1 n9cxdKDogw/5ls+ZEkKr3WXEBJgWlAy9oTOrQ5VjXHguH4nD1ulP4CkzxZ+2tkf5ZGow YvcQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=u3F6RKzwQPQvft3/F4q/Wv0lqAQU67zaIEP1VnDVYqI=; b=LufBfoyL2pW+qkLofbODvRUzAghHvAemuJlfz8+P7VbFHZTPOD60jOeBE3VdJ67Cdt UpVhditso8UgM6qNIWQG6pjkcRSW3dZF1AcB2SiCwUGkr1eCpoEDRFAMdgDT99pdOKmP 3OmoLNeo9ltowCpkP8ich3f+1jsfURhwZ2kj1UgYy71pulWD34G+24LBzGJ0wpQ/dGYJ FvmQuLvJTzFB9lBPoJaMTiWhd2cc3hQDgcz3gMezPZ7okNUbUx86ohvLrgwF5DeQFj1a 7xxoOTM1gGkbv+yWq35qkK64HHctYZiCWUH4WGPvh7mQ+AfX5MPKGWx+ngq9qWkvseIn 8kUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWdyf/dInWDUru6wBvNU0PivglfyPYHiYriqmXXFoBDNWVhy/wA 9/+TOqaZj4B9ayWW6QnP9Nc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyo8lyYAf18iOdcSTg7oA5Tm9jOxi93edb5Ab/Hjq5cMeZ598d0T5WqO3fBupX7Pk/s5iGQJg== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:cbc2:: with SMTP id n2mr3463101wmi.173.1573143348115; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 08:15:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.199] (c-24-5-53-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.5.53.184]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b1sm2823849wrw.77.2019.11.07.08.15.45 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Nov 2019 08:15:46 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <8A4DA7E0-1908-42AD-8359-AD42C0C4A3CA@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_754A69B5-9A29-48C9-B718-2DC33866D81B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: make IPR declaration on IETF site but targeted at another SDO? Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 08:15:42 -0800 In-Reply-To: <08e601d5957e$8700eb60$9502c220$@olddog.co.uk> Cc: Bob Hinden , "Salz, Rich" , IETF To: Adrian Farrel References: <7cfd2569-06d3-8562-6f73-b21d131db6d9@gmail.com> <26C8E34F-4AAC-4CA2-B54D-AD3C57CA03C0@eggert.org> <89F85067-9655-4784-89C2-46D56FE07177@akamai.com> <08e601d5957e$8700eb60$9502c220$@olddog.co.uk> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 16:15:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_754A69B5-9A29-48C9-B718-2DC33866D81B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, > On Nov 7, 2019, at 7:17 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: >=20 > I agree with Rich, here. >=20 > Participation in each SDO is subject to the IPR rules of that SDO. = Individuals or their sponsoring organisations need to follow those = rules. >=20 > Disclosing IPR in one SDO has zero impact on the disclosure of IPR in = another SDO. >=20 > Consult an attorney or read the rules? Yes, my take as well. The IETF IPR rules are for documents in the IETF = process. If one has an issue in another SDO, use that SDO=E2=80=99s = IPR process. Bob >=20 > Adrian >=20 > From: ietf On Behalf Of Salz, Rich > Sent: 07 November 2019 15:10 > To: Andrew G. Malis ; Lars Eggert > Cc: IETF Discussion > Subject: Re: make IPR declaration on IETF site but targeted at another = SDO? >=20 > I am much less sympathetic. If the company has a patent, the company = needs to figure out how to disclose that. --Apple-Mail=_754A69B5-9A29-48C9-B718-2DC33866D81B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl3EQy4ACgkQrut0EXfn u6jaLQf9HpdgZ165EJRKM8tW83TzwnfNrXLtpz9xxSd2fN7P4K9gP3UNglTfJm96 wGJuZI49OWmlS4vyuBVhFx3j+W8h4Raqp9Z5727Y7VBKdjOpuxKCv258nXwwTwyN C6vqWjmkBffS+zQ2mHVUzrsa23QyTNgkZZ2j/l4yQ5MXgL4MOxOQDJfh4Cr1WkIe rjqX8FR+IGFBIULy6gl5pCeVhL/CI33Exc79mcUXxQdd5VDqi8m+74Gtjh2NQUgV 3lpLJ1fByVm3K4wUTPgTbyONY4sLMSvQmT0tvr49JMPwbLw6Tc0QLRF81QJXBNix 3gQ8e8eXC0lgQhe4pFBs9v17L5ksSw== =JWDL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_754A69B5-9A29-48C9-B718-2DC33866D81B-- From nobody Thu Nov 7 08:29:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7EE3120858 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 08:29:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kFN9ng1vLt-b for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 08:29:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x433.google.com (mail-wr1-x433.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::433]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B675C1200B3 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 08:29:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x433.google.com with SMTP id a11so3747065wra.6 for ; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 08:29:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=ZZTrvmt1tJQE6KP33xC1vN2cF3A1x4bRSwnQX5QFLwU=; b=nDmaJjzNzB0H0wF9DSZrBe4qkUBtdEj5Xrrjn2wN9JQDs7zRCHSPHcMyYaGOz+1JyK PS8WnAYsyz1flPw9yoU85Ir9k82ZLik1qL3eYo2JEjqpRFyK8DnSkymPTrRHK54yPxlq aS+ADxK7NSE1t+xyM6UBpKOKs877bLRbsE8zroOQ/fmk1AudzaB4mnf9W/9aME3r0RUz nP9aCSfBIv6EgHOyqJNKizhBiTkpRKruangoujpj9QGvb+UBbCnb/qQhgUjb6JUGaVbj uubAZVchZ2XHm7GjQ0FqWyLPjLIVjvqTWEPPh8Nt3stkHHXDXXS/EqhFtMCpGvi+1P+r 4O6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=ZZTrvmt1tJQE6KP33xC1vN2cF3A1x4bRSwnQX5QFLwU=; b=G9CdfzRg8/uFnEq1FrLWmbDIVoQOVGc7xt5kGq8ZsqJQZliXO+RJIGPYCoidaSEcIo VBVHQix1r683msTQSscnso1PqFQggCBnoYDFs445PuC2WJR0sguiRdEs4MmGNrlOXf/s cRnHahfYydwqo1gL8jdvOTRwwKcxx+qJqm7QlH2qeKY1xIrOrN1UB72nfHu+uXZHf/6L fPw170EVmxEMqu7M0SbQZW4X/8+chzg6ifqgcqodz0r3zg3QTbIbzIEqN/67zrdRocDg RipQcjwYiNaPvwaoQiJOmxQtN4WoYuQE7esr6saJEfbdQc7SRIj1wtCDiB1UmE1nhomc S/jg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUaekVWY0yNfckwHR/EuWTESFD4tBcX1fh0nMDS7z3ENQ2+WLFD k4ZgaR3RiUJTEa3UvINQ6yk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyHCRxFzbiYOFHKZLn71AEQnQEHG1uZtjWfiTTiY+PCh8nUiuZRHX3goZ4CAeUIGZhnYZ33Cg== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:5404:: with SMTP id g4mr3852225wrv.359.1573144166201; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 08:29:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:dcc8:ba76:7e6f:8cb9? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:dcc8:ba76:7e6f:8cb9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z17sm2580997wrh.57.2019.11.07.08.29.23 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Nov 2019 08:29:25 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <18D4ABF5-2FAE-446D-B23C-182E61BA1ACB@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A8A14D76-764C-47F2-B5E2-282FEBCB23C5"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 08:29:19 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20191107050221.GD12148@localhost> Cc: Bob Hinden , Brian Carpenter , Ralph Droms , Alexey Melnikov , IETF , Michael Richardson To: Nico Williams References: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> <20191107050221.GD12148@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 16:29:30 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A8A14D76-764C-47F2-B5E2-282FEBCB23C5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Nico, > On Nov 6, 2019, at 9:02 PM, Nico Williams = wrote: > =E2=80=A6.. >> Secondly, they'd still be the authority for chartering, appointing >> WG chairs, appointing directorates, and other aspects of overseeing >> the process. Most of the duties described in RFC 2026 in fact. >=20 > Sure, but picking good chairs now becomes essential, but finding = chairs > as good as ADs will be difficult. I agree that picking good chairs is essential (it is now too), but a = w.g. chair=E2=80=99s job is not full time. They only have to manage and = review the documents in their working group. The biggest issue with = finding qualified people to be ADs is that it is essentially a full time = job. Finding qualified people to be w.g. chairs is easier and there is = a bigger pool of qualified people because it isn=E2=80=99t a full time = job. Bob --Apple-Mail=_A8A14D76-764C-47F2-B5E2-282FEBCB23C5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl3ERl8ACgkQrut0EXfn u6iPcAf9F1cQ7NGSqkT2VeWvl1yfbbzoTr3bbA4HTEfJYWLhqSclOwnMljRbDszR DMvwibAfAuOwCfkgz+VXujrYUizyot62G6vkRgrYsuU2edm1nP5DnTaNvU7T/ivN xrL3VHQiG/At9ieZmCWPeKaUG4uH/4Jmpa3nbT/046DS7yn6KE39dydq44QvPws9 pOzQXGhGbU1tt92P19KEi00m3/cQczxzLWeLdSamNYkbitf1iM+afbs+d6+pptwx RkTrLN218mSOg3DvqDaJQ2tqRO5DM5AdoDIDK3IKM+NodaU7665Jb0EWvkOJBKMJ VDQFaQN4Xz/3IQlZI2Ir8p0lLbs3tA== =p13o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_A8A14D76-764C-47F2-B5E2-282FEBCB23C5-- From nobody Thu Nov 7 08:35:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44EEC1200FF for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 08:35:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HNH3OTnvUrVR for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 08:35:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from sobco.sobco.com (unknown [136.248.127.164]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F0FE1200B3 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 08:35:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sobco.sobco.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE96322FC11F; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 11:35:03 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sobco.com Received: from sobco.sobco.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (sobco.sobco.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pfx0jujdHOFS; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 11:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.10.10.1] (g2.sobco.com [136.248.127.171]) by sobco.sobco.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DBE1122FC109; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 11:35:00 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: make IPR declaration on IETF site but targeted at another SDO? From: Scott Bradner In-Reply-To: <7cfd2569-06d3-8562-6f73-b21d131db6d9@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 11:34:36 -0500 Cc: IETF Discussion Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2A3C05E4-F844-49F6-BB97-032F424B8A65@sobco.com> References: <7cfd2569-06d3-8562-6f73-b21d131db6d9@gmail.com> To: Alexandre Petrescu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 16:35:06 -0000 Alexandre, you have already received a bunch of comments but in short 1/ an IETF IPR declaration needs to refer to an IETF contribution (e.g., = an ID or RFC) 2/ the IETF does not forbid any use of IPR disclosures made to the IETF = - so giving=20 ETSI a URL pointing to the IETF disclosure is fine by the IETF 3/ but ETSI will likely want to know how the disc sure relates to work = being done in ETSI so such a pointer may not be all that useful to them Scott > On Nov 7, 2019, at 7:04 AM, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >=20 > Hi, IETFers, >=20 > I would like to ask whether it is allowed to make an IPR declaration = on > the IETF site, but dedicated for use mainly on another SDO? >=20 > I am in a delicate situation: I am a co-author on a patent application > that I value. The technology is using IP protocols. The SDO where I > suggest the use of this technology (ETSI ITS) needs an IPR = declaration; > but they require the creation of an account on the web prior to > accepting the declaration. I have problems making that account = because > of reasons difficult to explain (organizational internal). >=20 > So, I would like to make that declaration here at IETF, and give ETSI > the URL of the public declaration that is at IETF. >=20 > Do you think that is possible? Or is it forbidden to use IETF IPR = site > for other SDOs? >=20 > Alex >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 7 08:43:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 480A6120113 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 08:43:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0fCpQ8oGXNwQ for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 08:43:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42d.google.com (mail-wr1-x42d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A17C61200B3 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 08:43:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id p4so3785888wrm.8 for ; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 08:43:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=PdxtmAeJQkTckvaVQQPfDPW9wB2k43nvUpCGoUmb+hc=; b=B4ECW7yiL0hTV5scrKKmw0tiBn93C6OHV+ZVNmfu9y1O5INdXtGMM9XY9lDGIrAFwX p3amfve9HhKwfZteYr+Dxv9PlSg35SUAL/PghUn/P/SYWFbdC8oxZSKX/dJizIAHCcuR yhfTVuYMCuA3U6xxaTlJtsRE0whgFSNt6L75D71fGosrAw2BA72lysVi7/GRVWg/3epQ dLk+8PshZkj03y0wyIvNHB3T5CL1SfNbFS6a+8UPwAdONWx21Ov4b+kJ9EAvCPi0PRep NU+ymQPIl5TucI2p593fKFWulMoG8leBNhDDM6LEhhvrUqQOLy0HYR1nyLHJ+11Iz8Cj EBng== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=PdxtmAeJQkTckvaVQQPfDPW9wB2k43nvUpCGoUmb+hc=; b=QuFiyyvuDdgog3iDuPd8VKHeEodMN86WZbWaWUM0oZYCVN6/nZKGwI8CUyJR0BoWPF D8d1bhbfSYiLFppDJskasOCQjXU8FqiOvBhe9izuLJjnLgmKteIgCy4jTV25QbRT17hO gYHpAOy71GgkXz/DV6lAecImVM+0yw9PJ4O8g1hOgvmgD97DHy0tkjvlAtFlMrVW7hL4 oIdJX6cOEHdS8HYxJiGNYFhgB5rdDk7LqzCQUgnDK4c79nCQg/3IswGyrXKDx1xUo9at WYsDk802ev6s9Gu09JsX2oOjtAKzpT2SXZSXCa1JdX6c7sdtXrsPP9wjjev4xa00UYRj MPVA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXVkzH9dSrJvQB6TNg9dHoPz9tYr59silt2hkuPBIojWRtYdGok u0D7zteX7gDJoUDtEh8RY58= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzXrD7DjQWh193KAATXBWUJXHfY4lk/aBkKJx+lhdnjVFB4mjogyVv7ygq2hOgTCK7cjBPBuQ== X-Received: by 2002:adf:f192:: with SMTP id h18mr4043623wro.148.1573144984099; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 08:43:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:dcc8:ba76:7e6f:8cb9? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:dcc8:ba76:7e6f:8cb9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w18sm2667908wrl.2.2019.11.07.08.43.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Nov 2019 08:43:03 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <4CE2BB80-BA94-48A1-BC08-187E2D63F5C3@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6B8D03CC-DD81-4C87-A033-E1F9C555F3FF"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 08:42:59 -0800 In-Reply-To: <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , IETF To: Keith Moore References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 16:43:07 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6B8D03CC-DD81-4C87-A033-E1F9C555F3FF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Keith, > On Nov 6, 2019, at 3:01 PM, Keith Moore = wrote: >=20 > On 11/6/19 5:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >=20 >> Here's a thought experiment. >>=20 >> Update the standards process such that the approval of Proposed = Standard >> RFCs, after an IETF last call including some specified cross-area = review >> requirements, is done by the WG consensus process with the consent of = the AD . >=20 > I don't think a typical WG chair is in a good position to review = things from a broad perspective. The ADs are in a MUCH better position = to do that, precisely because they are exposed to everything that IETF = does. Also, the WG chairs are properly concerned with the specific = perspective of their WGs; they know where the hard battles were fought. = Their WG needs them to be in a position to defend the WG's work. To = expect them to do both that and the broad review would put them in a = conflicted position, and it's probably the broad review that would get = shortchanged. I suspect that for a lot of documents, broad cross area review beyond = what Brian proposes is not necessary. Not for all, but many things = that working groups produce are very incremental. We could have two = tracks, one as Brian proposes, and another where the AD thinks more = review is needed. I suspect this would significantly reduce the load on the IESG and would = not reduce quality. Bob --Apple-Mail=_6B8D03CC-DD81-4C87-A033-E1F9C555F3FF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl3ESZMACgkQrut0EXfn u6iGdQf+K3QWiEKGjVu5MpdGvKIDIJpB/fGMJGWGiE7Fo2XhVzsjz5nYzmBI0dAD 5TyXwg7Enl+0y662Rk+EGdHLSUsKmbHCMUACrlRv38RPIj465LMTTDI0z+14/63U rKOsLn1fWa/k1b0sm9/5sVYjf57ix6zAHlp5Bbtr6id6MECQmfDi3dHMlb+E+N+h V6De6vMILB8PGiTLis74Eit+MFs/YXU5eEsOdJQXYbUer0XMHqfzO86UTorkwITy yIukna41fiOdByO6kF66+Crx+h6Mh59FX7JUeenyYZEqO2duWxaGY5sub0KJv/Th 1C+S4TNe3DSFAdk/fsnRPlZ2/uLenA== =iDaE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_6B8D03CC-DD81-4C87-A033-E1F9C555F3FF-- From nobody Thu Nov 7 08:57:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC415120858 for ; 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Thu, 7 Nov 2019 11:56:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> <4CE2BB80-BA94-48A1-BC08-187E2D63F5C3@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <3a62066d-effb-bfc0-da23-92144255f2a9@network-heretics.com> Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 11:56:57 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4CE2BB80-BA94-48A1-BC08-187E2D63F5C3@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 16:57:07 -0000 On 11/7/19 11:42 AM, Bob Hinden wrote: > I suspect that for a lot of documents, broad cross area review beyond what Brian proposes is not necessary. Not for all, but many things that working groups produce are very incremental. We could have two tracks, one as Brian proposes, and another where the AD thinks more review is needed. Sure, I agree that broad cross area review isn't necessary for every document. Though I don't think the important factor is whether the work is "incremental", but rather, whether it affects interests beyond the narrow scope of the WG itself. But even with the current process, I also don't think that an AD needs to read every document if it doesn't touch on his or her area. So I don't think we need to change the process just to allow documents that don't need broad review to not be subjected to it. I just assume that that fewer ADs will concern themselves with such documents, and for the documents that have less potential to wreak havoc, ADs will be more willing to trust reviews from directorate members and others in the community. Voting "no objection" is pretty easy, after all, and ADs are busy enough that there's plenty of incentive to avoid unnecessary work. > I suspect this would significantly reduce the load on the IESG and would not reduce quality. I don't think it would reduce the load by much, since I assume the workload is already reduced for these documents. And it should never be up to "the AD" (as in singular) to decide how broad review should be. That judgment needs to be made by several people from different areas, even if the AD, or ADs for the area of the document in question, don't see the potential adverse impact. Keith From nobody Thu Nov 7 09:08:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C1C6120953 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 09:08:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.248 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.248 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RATWARE_MS_HASH=2.148, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JXe8TFPdzt1K for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 09:08:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com 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AM0PR07MB5716.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.178.115.216) by AM0PR07MB5299.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.178.19.76) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2430.16; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:08:25 +0000 Received: from AM0PR07MB5716.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::8d07:c426:c2d7:51f2]) by AM0PR07MB5716.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::8d07:c426:c2d7:51f2%3]) with mapi id 15.20.2430.014; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:08:25 +0000 From: tom petch To: Bob Hinden , Nico Williams CC: IETF Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] Thread-Topic: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] Thread-Index: AQHVlY33J9NSD7+fB0K0nl3D5uidOA== Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:08:25 +0000 Message-ID: <00f901d5958d$8e95b180$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> References: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> 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7 09:25:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949E912094A for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 09:25:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cgu8uOVHXa6J for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 09:25:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A90C12093A for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 09:25:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 691DA3897B; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:22:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5284C913; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:25:20 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Bob Hinden cc: "Rob Wilton \(rwilton\)" , Alexey Melnikov , IETF Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews In-Reply-To: <15BCDF05-FB13-45D2-A5DF-70618EBA1A5A@gmail.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <20191.1573054128@localhost> <15BCDF05-FB13-45D2-A5DF-70618EBA1A5A@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 17:25:24 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Bob Hinden wrote: >>> Perhaps RFCs could list (within the document) who reviewed/approved >>> them, and in which role/capacity the review had been performed. >> >> +10. >> >>> This could serve two purposes: >>> - some minimal reward for those individuals taking the time to review the document, >>> - encouragement for the reviewers to ensure that an adequate review has been performed based on the role/capacity in which they are acting. >> >> I've also suggested that the XML for the acknowledgement section be >> structured so that we could extract this information better. > All of this (reviewers, Shepard, AD reviews, ballots, etc.) is captured > in the datatracker currently. I am not sure why it would also need to > be in the document. Because the datatracker is an ephermeral (by historic scales of time) database, while the RFCs are etched in stone. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3EU4AACgkQgItw+93Q 3WW/bgf8CUCBv5R6z5fzO0SA6+8HATS8lpTxwO5ccY46UX7gh7YlzYZTgB0hSgZ5 /QbMZG2B35NYvMUFKt5X8b3KCLibFL+SUceL+uQGmQ4Zkk7bDeVe57vP7TAzp9uP PHijmqUsz+IicksH2QR9dXOV0Zv6BA8bBcMSQhJvHv2tunmLORygkaQl4n0snAoo 7r4udFZwaAOhPX6GUz8AZqWfzZijS8aZxHvyVKX0clIfBaH3bmOSC+tLYTPLOoKc NDEEQavGxG/P/3P+hxyTAO6vjnTlw1xKc1UnpWsi2lZhTZCqNGjt43qkmsrADoBC KkHdpgZ4WgasiJgo8nL8lOhQuL4Dqw== =Zylg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Nov 7 09:26:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80FD9120962 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 09:26:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1LrpDeWENuKo for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 09:26:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AC6C12096E for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 09:26:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9E7F3897C for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:23:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6E9D913 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:26:22 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: IETF Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews In-Reply-To: <115A579C-D309-401A-8460-FD24DDDDE910@gmail.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <20191.1573054128@localhost> <15BCDF05-FB13-45D2-A5DF-70618EBA1A5A@gmail.com> <7A9BF54C-7B7F-41C4-8C74-B23166405776@akamai.com> <115A579C-D309-401A-8460-FD24DDDDE910@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 17:26:27 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Stewart Bryant wrote: >>> All of this (reviewers, Shepard, AD reviews, ballots, etc.) is captured in the datatracker currently. I am not sure why it would also need to be in the document. >> >> As incentive to do the best possible job. >> > .. and as a thank to the reviewer and their sponsor. Also, the RFC will capture the sponsor *at the time*, while the datatracker will tell you their sponsor is *today* -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3EU74ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVuyQf9GNywYPwUHaV0jvRLGm8BPT5baGc3Wo3cCdnZUrKFmlpwBbpL3PWqjIv0 IwbRXUOr70pbvUE7kPgjgfrOs73Gy6Jp8aw/iP4vJqLXM/25vZMZXjFu4rqSvV8C Ko+XCJtxJPg3g0XOJ6hSp/UO3adk6lhTXFuAHqW1nItFBRKUSGsC2HZa7Tc8D/uz jP1QZlxuo1irOpnRmmLflBh7qL7uXnumM6WIfXanTX6GXVks5d+2tPpf8mv13GnQ ZTPfi/gJHXh48OvuvGGvY29gBj3RsRuMObYPgn99rR7Duslf2mbiiH9jb08sHq9o /bl7PUok6f1iiIszbEZ+r5ZzI88uvQ== =tI/k -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Nov 7 11:28:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 381F6120C14 for ; 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Thu, 07 Nov 2019 11:28:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.46] ([62.3.64.16]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x9sm3051823wru.32.2019.11.07.11.28.52 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Nov 2019 11:28:52 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews From: Stewart Bryant In-Reply-To: <9182.1573147520@localhost> Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 19:28:21 +0000 Cc: Bob Hinden , Alexey Melnikov , IETF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <20191.1573054128@localhost> <15BCDF05-FB13-45D2-A5DF-70618EBA1A5A@gmail.com> <9182.1573147520@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3601.0.10) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 19:28:57 -0000 > On 7 Nov 2019, at 17:25, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Bob Hinden wrote: >>>> Perhaps RFCs could list (within the document) who reviewed/approved >>>> them, and in which role/capacity the review had been performed. >>>=20 >>> +10. >>>=20 >>>> This could serve two purposes: >>>> - some minimal reward for those individuals taking the time to = review the document, >>>> - encouragement for the reviewers to ensure that an adequate review = has been performed based on the role/capacity in which they are acting. >>>=20 >>> I've also suggested that the XML for the acknowledgement section be >>> structured so that we could extract this information better. >=20 >> All of this (reviewers, Shepard, AD reviews, ballots, etc.) is = captured >> in the datatracker currently. I am not sure why it would also need = to >> be in the document. >=20 > Because the datatracker is an ephermeral (by historic scales of time) > database, while the RFCs are etched in stone. >=20 >=20 .. and fundamentally it is always nice to be thanked for, in some cases, = hours of reading, and that in turn encourages reviewers to do more = reviews, and demonstrates to their manager that they doing something the = IETF appreciates. - Stewart= From nobody Thu Nov 7 11:33:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BC4D120987 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 11:33:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ri6iq2Uhoply for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 11:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from camel.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (camel.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E3921209FF for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 11:33:26 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7196EE0C8D; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 19:33:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a7.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-45-192.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.45.192]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C7BC7E0B9F; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 19:33:23 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a7.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Thu, 07 Nov 2019 19:33:24 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Company-Turn: 237b74c4765131d0_1573155204263_3343075011 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1573155204263:1618985096 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1573155204263 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a7.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a7.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 301DCA2C08; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 11:33:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=Z/cHCqsz5WJLsc AyOcAzNWIHqPo=; b=DkxGCY/iGqHJJeiN2jX9nybzFd7nRxIzMmbr9/5oSUY5V/ 8dGM4VMFLJjKV8By4Z3IQ/lwYVDfg9YOo8GQBsTLUb09W5srhjOPutihdcJBThAo CCwMrJTpnNlKk1PYws02/78dMXYPzKPmHkV6tFPS6ZaN7FY4gPX8SBvr0NA/A= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a7.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9FBE9A2C21; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 11:33:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:33:15 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a7 From: Nico Williams To: Leif Johansson Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Michael Richardson , Alexey Melnikov , Bob Hinden , IETF Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] Message-ID: <20191107193314.GE12148@localhost> References: <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> <563174A8-3961-476C-889D-A712EFD5DAEA@mnt.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <563174A8-3961-476C-889D-A712EFD5DAEA@mnt.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 19:33:28 -0000 On Thu, Nov 07, 2019 at 06:34:28AM +0100, Leif Johansson wrote: > > 7 nov. 2019 kl. 02:49 skrev Nico Williams : > >> Why would that work? Because it now incents the WG chairs by making them, > >> in effect, where the buck stops. So the WG chairs and AD (typically > >> a committee of three) will feel the obligation to get everything > >> right. And it scales. > > > > So, no more IESG review? What would we need the IESG for anymore? It > > would be gone, I guess? > > > > Sure, it will scale better. But quality will suffer. > > Why do you think that would be the case? Well, it doesn't necessarily follow that fewer eyeballs / less review == poorer quality, but it is a fair assumption. I don't know what the right thing to do here is, and we might have to experiment somewhat. Can we run an experiment where for some WG(s) we don't require IESG review of their PS documents? Nico -- From nobody Thu Nov 7 11:44:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAC1612099C for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 11:44:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vtDzkwV6884J for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 11:44:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from bumble.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (bumble.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A760E1200F5 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 11:44:16 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC1460106D; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 19:44:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a34.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-14-250.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.14.250]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1978A601108; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 19:44:15 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a34.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Thu, 07 Nov 2019 19:44:15 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Macabre-Language: 4750bf327ae47870_1573155855437_1326638109 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1573155855437:2059151928 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1573155855436 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a34.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a34.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B645CA9DFE; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 11:44:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=1sHHYZZJtQs+5tRWn+MVqXR7N1c=; b=SvbVoHKooKo 8YJxQdejY776mH7DrV/XuVoTK4bmrDHRXR+fe6OWvx6u7NkhcKfmck5gN/QP+Qfu MS6QXChGXsHeLX6znPr/XDKFg/dudrlTX709tQ1MHosowKsuDy9eCENoljlovTx2 aIFXMfGhxYwqAvh3vCrRFnd/dd110K+o= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a34.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5DDA2A9DF6; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 11:44:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:44:08 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a34 From: Nico Williams To: Keith Moore Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] Message-ID: <20191107194408.GF12148@localhost> References: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> <3caeb4cf-b92b-99fd-77df-7b1aef3e2979@network-heretics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3caeb4cf-b92b-99fd-77df-7b1aef3e2979@network-heretics.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 19:44:19 -0000 On Wed, Nov 06, 2019 at 09:50:23PM -0500, Keith Moore wrote: > On 11/6/19 9:25 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > Two WG chairs is almost the norm these days. But yes, the essence of > > the experiment is to reduce the number of people in the decision > > process - and intentionally lower the bar for Proposed Standard close= r > > to how it's defined in RFC2026: >=20 > But 2026 criteria assumed a three-stage standards track.=A0=A0 Now we'r= e down to > two stages in theory, and still usually just one stage in practice.=A0=A0= As far > as I can tell, getting rid of Draft Standard hasn't done anything to ma= ke > Proposed Standard less of a terminal state and more of a stepping-stone= . >=20 > [...] >=20 > This is where the biggest disconnect between 2026 and reality is.=A0=A0= If the > reality is that industry is going to deploy implementations at Proposed > Standard or sooner (and as far as I can tell, that's been reality for a= s > long as there's been an Internet "industry"), it makes sense for IETF t= o > recognize that and react accordingly. +1 > If we want there to be a prototype "just for testing" status, it should > probably be called something other than Proposed - the name has come to= mean > something else in IETF context.=A0=A0 And we should deliberately change= one or We have it: it's Experimental. But it's essentially seen as a negative, thus underused. > more protocol elements to make the standard incompatible with > already-deployed implementations.=A0=A0 The trick would be to keep that > information from leaking out beforehand. =A0=A0 Maybe give the RSE /N/ = options > for things to change that are selected at random, similarly to the way > nomcoms are selected. Are you proposing that there be a required backwards-incompatible change so as to force... what exactly? That the old thing does not get deployed? I assume it will mostly discourage use of the new track. The risk with deploying prototypes is that a backwards-incompatible change will be needed, so perhaps early reviews should focus only on identifying features at risk of such changes and requiring that the experimental protocol cover upgrades or reduce the risk. > Also, the WG completion, IESG approval and RFC publication dates of a n= ew > standard should be determined well in advance so that vendors can tailo= r > their product development schedules to those dates.=A0=A0 This would me= an > holding WGs, IESG, and the RSE to a schedule (gasp!) once there was > confidence that the document would be standardized (another argument fo= r > broad review well prior to Last Call.)=A0 I'm not saying that there cou= ld > absolutely be no slippage, but reality should be close enough that > developers can plan by it. Maybe, yeah, for high-profile protocols (e.g., TLS). > But my guess is that the only way to get buy-in for Prototype specifica= tions > would be to convincingly promise faster development. Yes. That includes faster RFC-Editor turnarounds. If we remove the other bottlenecs, then RFC-Editor queue time will become the next bottleneck to address. Nico --=20 From nobody Thu Nov 7 12:07:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBBCF120255 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:07:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x_56tQNE5j8Z for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:07:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7F06120044 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:07:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 093C63897B for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:04:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FE90913 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:07:43 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: IETF Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] In-Reply-To: <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 20:07:47 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Update the standards process such that the approval of Proposed Standard > RFCs, after an IETF last call including some specified cross-area review > requirements, is done by the WG consensus process with the consent of the AD . > Why would that work? Because it now incents the WG chairs by making them, > in effect, where the buck stops. So the WG chairs and AD (typically > a committee of three) will feel the obligation to get everything > right. And it scales. I was not a fan of the proposal to designate an Internet-Draft as a stable document, because I felt that it was basically creating a new level of document status. (Another hurdle) Your proposal is almost the same, but I like it because I feel that instead of adding a hurdle, it is removing one. Would you consider if these new documents are *RFC*s or, would you consider if we could make a new document series for these documents? I would suggest that it become the *Proposed Standard* series. That is, we'd change our first step to not be an *RFC*. I believe that this would solve the problems that the stable-document proponents were trying to create, while not adding a new step to the process. I would want such RFCPS or WGPS, etc. to go through the RPC. This fixes all the english, references, etc. issues, and of course causes IANA assignments. Upon being finished processing, the exact XML would be returned to the WG to collect errata, interop experience and clarification, setting things up for the "bis" document that would then be ready for Internet Standard (RFC). This also synchronizes our notion of what an RFC is with what the industry thinks is an RFC. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3EeY4ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXyPQf8CJNjdOdWPiNlVfnjoOMQjgk2FGjZJ9eNScpfueNId7/Cz/7TWux4qk5+ ZtXXoVWn4zbFciakGdRRNMA2rsP34cRP9/6rPabuHc4ezc7RKyRvRRcakJfIcV9I a7oCrjvexDdb4habIm0OqtMpyjhheN0ywfFmgBm8f2dk4L/+Q7P1e6/Ktrq+G7z0 +MEi8FKAoPYOzm1QyIg71SglVjdiJCEXJIoDKTqUtZh8hGrZ5HMqgHILpi2cCRF/ 5lGpyKc9pT4RRKAfO/CvvNPuzWKN95DO4EY0gw9jTpW6HkeY7pu0csNqxtzOiMbd 3lHKq+XcK9ZV+6FVDl3rXrowg8bsCQ== =9XwH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Nov 7 12:14:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AF40120AD9 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:14:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4Wtp_cHkDogF for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0050120A26 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 253833897B; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:11:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C996913; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:14:16 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: ietf@ietf.org, Jari Arkko Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] In-Reply-To: References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 20:14:19 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Keith Moore wrote: > Or to put it differently:=C2=A0 I don't think it scales so long as th= ere is > essentially no pushback on chartering any WG for which there appears = to be > community interest. > Note that there's not a contradiction there.=C2=A0 The ADs really are= in the best > position to review things from a broad perspective. AND with the curr= ent > number of working groups and number of drafts that they're producing,= there's > too much work for the ADs to do. My impression from the regular plenary reports on attendance my impression = is that the number of people involved in the IETF is declining, yet the number of RFCs being processed is going up. And the number of conflicts seems to be going up because so many more people are involved in quite a range of WGs. How does this compare to ten years ago? I'm not even sure I know what number I want to ask for here. Jari, can you tell if we have more unique authors from your stats system? Are we individually producing more documents? Are we collaborating across communities more often, which is why we have more conflicts? It seems like it must be that more of the people involved are writing documents. Did we have more people who were exclusively "tourists" before? =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3EexcACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWNMwf/fTV/VWoF4er14SM1v1P1A654i2OPhp+RAZEtNkQPo1nAW7Xo1v1KQ5RR rkdFr3n1QuwtHHKqmtpALfmgYMgdUbELzxQheZZDWsqPamDTR1kXXcnMA8t/kX4a ASLz8fDGFYB8Um0O6rPsSOXnIgifTCffFysolAmbKV1etnYL8b32HFhb8/gGnXvj H4VVTF1iSFMvPcbnAulRkyZQgpYWcRwoy+6xwqODPdSmrbq+gCYl0qaAKTSjvIMW ZN0UXLfVL0AwlCM5bBMxL7cGC6KSDMONHQI66BzeF3dWWSE0hHi1pIdeQMiAoWdv 5Lg7m4F7usg8Vq1TBw9jfDqgaBYYhg== =s47m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Nov 7 12:16:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57C3C120D3F for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:16:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pq2kGvxogsrs for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:16:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A75D9120D3A for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:16:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788243897B for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:13:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9046B913 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:16:50 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: IETF Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] In-Reply-To: <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> References: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 20:16:54 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Nico Williams wrote: > On Thu, Nov 07, 2019 at 11:54:59AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Here's a thought experiment. >> >> Update the standards process such that the approval of Proposed Standard >> RFCs, after an IETF last call including some specified cross-area review >> requirements, is done by the WG consensus process with the consent of the AD . >> >> Why would that work? Because it now incents the WG chairs by making them, >> in effect, where the buck stops. So the WG chairs and AD (typically >> a committee of three) will feel the obligation to get everything >> right. And it scales. > So, no more IESG review? What would we need the IESG for anymore? It > would be gone, I guess? IESG review for Internet Standard, not PS. > Sure, it will scale better. But quality will suffer. More documents promoted to IS. More time to recruit, manage and train WG chairs. I.e. MANAGING >> [...]. So the WG chairs and AD (typically a committee of three) [...] > Typically one of the ADs is uninvolved with a WG for which the other is > responsible, so that would be a committee of two, not three. Two chairs + 1 AD. It would ideally also involve a few directorate reviewers. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3Ee7IACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVUKQf/Zj1V3mu2SHlRin5tO72gQKiCunU2x3Y36ZZuIhkM7EF4EudHGY0ni6We dsqA3GOM7gUS3aJe1/J9/4uNG75ijpA4nAUwBiO5yoP+0Cg71uRWDlpftjVsejJa MLu8sB5SXQanFjqcAVxHyksV+LGG9fEoaQjYhGqvE8it1Ws8ntB56IyLUV3UV/10 H8yrmMRZxOZXHDdZ8QXOgq8sr4spx6N5SMdSaGs1DXlJj6bIpa/cCs5Z9dZRpCjs +5ZP+krSfRv45pR/dQ7Ejks1lxCQkTa3nm00uSyWdd3BMtFx5ukgm/u2vdfD4i8u eN3V5/0ClloTvoOlfxrtSJnn9rL3xw== =YH1d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Nov 7 12:17:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9413A120D4B for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:16:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kOEyI90j4lFB for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:16:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from cadetblue.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (cadetblue.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3BED120D3A for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:16:53 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C1503C0807; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:16:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a93.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-169-194.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.169.194]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 85FC93C0A77; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:16:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a93.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Thu, 07 Nov 2019 20:16:53 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Juvenile-Descriptive: 5dee05a2541a1e3c_1573157812960_1704253501 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1573157812960:3006616563 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1573157812960 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a93.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a93.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43B81802B3; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:16:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=TFVCX/tYcGZWdN NIAngBawmBvBs=; b=AFNP8pMRRXPl4gfP7Q4aSyC7bLVUnUqd2C22S/0TBkNRvW CSfHF/xIw5LZt+BhLFYJy2vtrh6IIIntbi36fTmjek6f1v4Tk2N8sSQfvHAFmVny pDW0JRqtb05rLw0m3cmQNgebd8aq6UxZ76pmiqCoMlzwDoskDPY+XmGKWH/64= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a93.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EFACC802AF; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:16:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 14:16:42 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a93 From: Nico Williams To: Michael Richardson Cc: IETF Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] Message-ID: <20191107201642.GG12148@localhost> References: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <10457.1573157263@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <10457.1573157263@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 20:16:56 -0000 On Thu, Nov 07, 2019 at 03:07:43PM -0500, Michael Richardson wrote: > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > Update the standards process such that the approval of Proposed Standard > > RFCs, after an IETF last call including some specified cross-area review > > requirements, is done by the WG consensus process with the consent of the AD . > > > Why would that work? Because it now incents the WG chairs by making them, > > in effect, where the buck stops. So the WG chairs and AD (typically > > a committee of three) will feel the obligation to get everything > > right. And it scales. > > I was not a fan of the proposal to designate an Internet-Draft as a stable > document, because I felt that it was basically creating a new level of > document status. (Another hurdle) > > Your proposal is almost the same, but I like it because I feel that instead > of adding a hurdle, it is removing one. > > Would you consider if these new documents are *RFC*s or, would you consider > if we could make a new document series for these documents? I would suggest > that it become the *Proposed Standard* series. That is, we'd change our > first step to not be an *RFC*. Now this is appealing. Perception counts for a lot. "RFCxxxx" == "Standard" in many minds. So giving PS docs a PSRFCxxxx w/o a corresponding RFCxxxx would help a lot. > I believe that this would solve the problems that the stable-document > proponents were trying to create, while not adding a new step to the process. > > I would want such RFCPS or WGPS, etc. to go through the RPC. > This fixes all the english, references, etc. issues, and of course causes > IANA assignments. > > Upon being finished processing, the exact XML would be returned to the WG to > collect errata, interop experience and clarification, setting things up for > the "bis" document that would then be ready for Internet Standard (RFC). > > This also synchronizes our notion of what an RFC is with what the industry > thinks is an RFC. +1. Nico -- From nobody Thu Nov 7 12:19:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08A09120D84 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:19:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZIdx5ihMex0c for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:19:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BF00120D86 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:19:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B493897B for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:16:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 510F3913 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:19:36 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] In-Reply-To: <3caeb4cf-b92b-99fd-77df-7b1aef3e2979@network-heretics.com> References: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> <3caeb4cf-b92b-99fd-77df-7b1aef3e2979@network-heretics.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 20:19:39 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Keith Moore wrote: > This is where the biggest disconnect between 2026 and reality is.=C2= =A0=C2=A0 If the > reality is that industry is going to deploy implementations at Propos= ed > Standard or sooner (and as far as I can tell, that's been reality for= as long > as there's been an Internet "industry"), it makes sense for IETF to r= ecognize > that and react accordingly. You are saying this as if it's a bug. It's not! It's by design. We deploy at PS in order to find out if there is interoperability. > If we want there to be a prototype "just for testing" status, it shou= ld > probably be called something other than Proposed - the name has come = to mean > something else in IETF context.=C2=A0=C2=A0 And we should deliberatel= y change one or > more protocol elements to make the standard incompatible with We do "just for testing" regularly at the internet-draft stage. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3EfFgACgkQgItw+93Q 3WX9agf/dUtF+A9CnM2AYWv3tIzaboAfAQ/NrcHVi/PEgL9AfaxsLHRcaEMcEYi4 DGgTtCzXa2kgnTJv7MCNgI9PKdGZDNpmlabXBdL43yBzk+EyMg/qWYKCttIg8n23 H22zZ9HW9MC04dxcdYFGmG7RbO/Qz25HmX0BS6qY3MBtpuZdWh5QkQwO+AjZwMfh 7S8eHwa73wkGZbZuhBjqmGtBhZXcSabUirCdOaUtpANhlv6cf3x4QRsmibkx/Afh b858pHAD8/A4pw5dqhvyd3EhwxZRxOHrFj8lBVMCcBawzXzNBQp2MYutMBhuaXLb GayNcbiDKCOO0MUiom8UmhsY2r/tyQ== =fpNH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Nov 7 12:19:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA182120DA6 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:19:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E7V2lVahCzly for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:19:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B84F9120D53 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:19:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050095.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:19:38 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.30]) by prod-mail-ppoint4.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2w420yh42t-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 07 Nov 2019 15:19:38 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:19:37 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.005; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:19:37 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Michael Richardson , "ietf@ietf.org" , Jari Arkko Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] Thread-Topic: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] Thread-Index: AQHVlPVEd2LJi99Uak6egGi1YwKpBKd/Fg6AgAAciYCAAApUgIABPNcA//+trAA= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:19:36 +0000 Message-ID: <959ECDD1-5DFF-4393-94B8-6425983866D3@akamai.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> <11796.1573157656@localhost> In-Reply-To: <11796.1573157656@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1f.0.191103 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.33.208] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2019-11-07_06:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=576 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1910280000 definitions=main-1911070190 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.95,18.0.572 definitions=2019-11-07_06:2019-11-07,2019-11-07 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 lowpriorityscore=0 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=558 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1910280000 definitions=main-1911070190 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 20:19:47 -0000 PiAgICBNeSBpbXByZXNzaW9uIGZyb20gdGhlIHJlZ3VsYXIgcGxlbmFyeSByZXBvcnRzIG9uIGF0 dGVuZGFuY2UgbXkgaW1wcmVzc2lvbiBpcw0KICAgIHRoYXQgdGhlIG51bWJlciBvZiBwZW9wbGUg aW52b2x2ZWQgaW4gdGhlIElFVEYgaXMgZGVjbGluaW5nLCB5ZXQgdGhlIG51bWJlcg0KICAgIG9m IFJGQ3MgYmVpbmcgcHJvY2Vzc2VkIGlzIGdvaW5nIHVwLg0KICANCkF0dGVuZGFuY2UgaXMgcGVy aGFwcyBkZWNsaW5pbmcsIGJ1dCBJIGRvbid0IHJlY2FsbCBhbnkgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvZiBXRyBl bWFpbCB0cmFmZmljLCBmb3IgZXhhbXBsZS4NCg0KIA0KDQo= From nobody Thu Nov 7 12:23:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36D34120A1E; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:23:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Administration LLC Board of Directors Chair To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Comment Invited on IETF LLC Policies X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.110.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org Message-ID: <157315822518.2141.2316700725802537374.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 12:23:45 -0800 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 20:23:45 -0000 Today we finished development of IETF LLC policies. The policies have all been released on our website and Conflict of Interest forms have been filed. Please see my detailed blog post on this subject at https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-policies-published/. Thank you! Jason Livingood Chair, IETF LLC Board LLC-Board-Chair@ietf.org ++++++++++ How to Contact the IETF LLC ++++++++++ Executive Director: Exec-Director@ietf.org Sponsorship: sponsorship@ietf.org Board: LLC-Board@ietf.org ++++++++++ General IETF LLC Board Background ++++++++++ About the IETF LLC: https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/ Meeting minutes: https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/llc-board/minutes/ Future meetings: https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/llc-board/meeting-info/ Financial statements: https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/financial-statements/ From nobody Thu Nov 7 13:15:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BA881209B0 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:15:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a8t6EthKxy4M for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD2A11209C8 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:14:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB009209B5; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 16:14:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 07 Nov 2019 16:14:57 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=jexkWyoHwvz8/b8z4kP2GWyy+Tuw1zeCoEU31HcBV RY=; b=n1S/xrA53E/Q1Yk80NgmSP4IrgaFoUUPUAipzvBdyPNeja2ncaDTxagRU +0LsgnW6bSz/RyI5PfE89Jrl2/8XWtGcdl5yWSGdsMKPPZsyZAMxHO8j9te/MRfp fuYLFHZQw3FarPSMf04CtP1BTtaTXoULYYytmv4PkjoJ0cN1l5RffWgoRMuoxvW+ u5pF6s+HsLoarhiwt0ujjSyLxLce8uKi3yQk+tQU1crnKTIRAfnAqHQHyWpjgMu8 As+PDL6RZjtjGorq3fuitZi82E3gcBmYVE2O/+rGUyddvDgfUHzks3b32InnrhXq duLZtklGkDhABTu85DEohRCiEBR5Q== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudduledgudegjecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtkeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghi thhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtoh hmqeenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrudehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhr ohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhush htvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C9302306005B; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 16:14:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] To: Nico Williams Cc: ietf@ietf.org References: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> <3caeb4cf-b92b-99fd-77df-7b1aef3e2979@network-heretics.com> <20191107194408.GF12148@localhost> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <695f84a4-683d-ab48-3925-840c6c5134d3@network-heretics.com> Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 16:14:54 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20191107194408.GF12148@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 21:15:12 -0000 On 11/7/19 2:44 PM, Nico Williams wrote: >> If we want there to be a prototype "just for testing" status, it should >> probably be called something other than Proposed - the name has come to mean >> something else in IETF context.   And we should deliberately change one or > We have it: it's Experimental. But it's essentially seen as a negative, > thus underused. Experimental doesn't imply that there's an intention to standardize a protocol, though this does happen in rare cases. Though now that I think about it, the right way to denote prototype status is probably to designate specific Internet-Drafts rather than to publish them as RFCs.   RFC publication isn't designed for temporary documents. >> more protocol elements to make the standard incompatible with >> already-deployed implementations.   The trick would be to keep that >> information from leaking out beforehand.    Maybe give the RSE /N/ options >> for things to change that are selected at random, similarly to the way >> nomcoms are selected. > Are you proposing that there be a required backwards-incompatible change > so as to force... what exactly? That the old thing does not get > deployed? I assume it will mostly discourage use of the new track. The purpose is to remove some of the incentives to deploy protocol implementations before they're approved, while still allowing implementations and meaningful interoperability tests. When things are prematurely deployed it puts pressure on the WG and/or IESG to accept specifications that have significant flaws. It can also harm IETF's reputation when implementations don't meet the specification or don't interoperate. > The risk with deploying prototypes is that a backwards-incompatible > change will be needed, so perhaps early reviews should focus only on > identifying features at risk of such changes and requiring that the > experimental protocol cover upgrades or reduce the risk. IMO one of the primary reasons for early reviews is to learn as early as possible whether an intended direction or protocol design choice would create or exacerbate tussles that could be addressed, and/or have adverse effects on other interests that might compel a different direction or choice.    It goes beyond "identifying features" because it's not always individual features that cause the conflicts. >> But my guess is that the only way to get buy-in for Prototype specifications >> would be to convincingly promise faster development. > Yes. That includes faster RFC-Editor turnarounds. If we remove the > other bottlenecs, then RFC-Editor queue time will become the next > bottleneck to address. I was thinking earlier today that the biggest waster of time and energy might be when IETF invests years of volunteer effort on specifications that turn out to be not very useful.   Even worse might be when IETF increases complexity (of implementations, operations, etc.) that doesn't result in a tremendous benefit to the Internet user community. (It's easy to pay more attention to things that are easily measured, than those that are not, even though the easily measured quantities might not be the most relevant ones.) Keith From nobody Thu Nov 7 13:17:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D066112099B for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:17:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DJnfok1-ceTn for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:17:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2A2C120104 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:17:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33F2020C55; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 16:17:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 07 Nov 2019 16:17:14 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=nHoeyId5UBfxxZuR17zWf1y5UjBKfGnzXzGSYKQHT Ck=; b=i22eztsgPscuZUjh6CJ34geyP82NuBGUzxmpVIpnFsxKk0UdT77LTyC6q r7hN4/wfQDc1HOs/ryXT2dfYm/5Kzi+zrp+qww+LTedog5MPF004tGNJvNS4Rt6B WJB5Qj7Tj30K5g5oBAZD/asRtHq+ID1cBUB+xrTRNKBHwQlp10zP62r9+OeMjzos xllBN4iKJ+AbCtGofoazbho3/TyXFkgNKP/JIbmoGMLmjT1uM2G2JZGsLbROy6J8 6GzG2FfbFxg/IslnhehySqpgetmyXbspk7ZQJjqvgau8n0vOJ0AWCJkK9mdy3gMQ Fa4WOpOTOoErbZTKyBbNY/pshtr7A== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudduledgudegjecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesth ejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvght fihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecukfhppedutdekrddvvddurddukedtrd duheenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgv rhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 234BD306005C; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 16:17:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] To: ietf@ietf.org References: <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> <563174A8-3961-476C-889D-A712EFD5DAEA@mnt.se> <20191107193314.GE12148@localhost> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <10988aa0-afe6-4e5f-ad9d-6952cc4730a8@network-heretics.com> Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 16:17:12 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20191107193314.GE12148@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 21:17:16 -0000 On 11/7/19 2:33 PM, Nico Williams wrote: > Can we run an experiment where for some WG(s) we > don't require IESG review of their PS documents? Why in the world would we want to do that? Keith From nobody Thu Nov 7 13:36:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE9AB12082A for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:36:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XfmJL0SAPoiq for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:36:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4E49120168 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:36:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 021D520D0B; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 16:36:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 07 Nov 2019 16:36:27 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=fwKKfGjVHBILXv/hsfr7Zw2CnEYR+WXfE55izAXmQ u8=; b=x/lQjtxmdpZmeAOEi6JPvJgnvxExGzYBOWxKTUX4tVl6k9HhsTVjCD08Z dgbuazvjya1vqCkW9LYQsP+oKOk/lETx1fNOYP99oRPoJ9V0Ozv3JfHnLWIn7syL O1rHecHLbDrufq6zFgNMC6pwcB9TwkLThrMasWMOjULkn6akrs/RTKfXZXUZ2maV 6PHZAdG3JwvoYb+6Hz+yS7dTFuxEE0HOj3OvhIDfT0KvwuYM6cKY9voTqxEfJLMS /MbqXZptnyAEqv4/890pcfs1nMoeB5rGH7iFgezwKRGnHeAvFhIkZLEYD5XK5LY3 PtxN89BePXlSTGtRdKu1ilCuys5yw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudduledgudehudcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvght fihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecukfhppedutdekrddvvddurddukedtrd duheenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgv rhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 76BE3306005B; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 16:36:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] To: ietf@ietf.org References: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> <3caeb4cf-b92b-99fd-77df-7b1aef3e2979@network-heretics.com> <12884.1573157976@localhost> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <8b46db76-574a-bd2c-18af-0546dee0fd3e@network-heretics.com> Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 16:36:25 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <12884.1573157976@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 21:36:30 -0000 On 11/7/19 3:19 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > Keith Moore wrote: > > This is where the biggest disconnect between 2026 and reality is.   If the > > reality is that industry is going to deploy implementations at Proposed > > Standard or sooner (and as far as I can tell, that's been reality for as long > > as there's been an Internet "industry"), it makes sense for IETF to recognize > > that and react accordingly. > > You are saying this as if it's a bug. > It's not! It's by design. > We deploy at PS in order to find out if there is interoperability. My first impression is that this is indeed a bug, a tremendous disservice to Internet users.   But I remind myself that automatic software update is becoming increasingly common.   So at least for products that are certain to be run on Internet-connected hosts (as opposed to, say, on air-gapped networks), and for which secure update can be provided, there might be cases for which premature deployment makes sense - especially if there's a strategy designed into the protocol for dealing with version skew in the endpoints' implementations.   (Assuming public internet connectivity isn't at all the general case, but it's an important corner case.) Also, PS criteria were specifically not designed for deployment; the idea was that you need interop testing before deploying.   But if interop testing were incorporated earlier in the process (which does seem to be more common these days) then the sequencing assumed by 2026 might be suboptimal. I could imagine that rather than the initial RFC being at PS, it could be (for some cases, probably not all) at something akin to what Draft Standard used to be - interop testing already done by the time the initial RFC is published, with any changes made as a result of the testing incorporated into that RFC. > > If we want there to be a prototype "just for testing" status, it should > > probably be called something other than Proposed - the name has come to mean > > something else in IETF context.   And we should deliberately change one or > > more protocol elements to make the standard incompatible with > > We do "just for testing" regularly at the internet-draft stage. yeah, and it doesn't make sense to go through the whole RFC publication process just to agree on a specification to test to. Keith From nobody Thu Nov 7 13:41:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C330D120843 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:41:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r8q00nlNftV4 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:41:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D5581201DC for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:41:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1137A21111; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 16:41:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 07 Nov 2019 16:41:22 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=q1Q2elc/J4SAYoggAlh7wl3lnnkuXy3uNmEWuKaj0 60=; b=Gt6LSGxQhp6H1i+OsDFOsHwFQq3EBQ8C1SB79ChSjRo7l1ww0h1oWfDqv OgoN0rhwJS8hr+P2JoJLjQpovsdFclE9LK5TzQbQGIQIKVD4SZCBHfXHvQipchir z8gqCwKoE9F7QbmKud3uOAOfEMyPin9dJD3KQ/n7R9cKexmWkddC/b1o3dBY1RA5 RW2y1BwuSSoOADzvg38shRw0bzgcskRBowY3fTgNUChIv6luex0cSnrM9F+4ykCt JTvgfVeptS0tv1DPIRkBUcLPs/l2wEkH7lfKmXE2/NgP+BcqygS+2eFJmIwJQh6Q JzwmV2pExNn3LEEOjf/Xj7lZ+lmvA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudduledgudehvdcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvght fihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecukfhppedutdekrddvvddurddukedtrd duheenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgv rhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 609C7306005E; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 16:41:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <10457.1573157263@localhost> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 16:41:20 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <10457.1573157263@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 21:41:24 -0000 On 11/7/19 3:07 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > Would you consider if these new documents are *RFC*s or, would you consider > if we could make a new document series for these documents? I would suggest > that it become the*Proposed Standard* series. That is, we'd change our > first step to not be an*RFC*. At first glance I find this idea appealing.   I'd like to see it explored.   At lot depends on other factors - e.g. when, relative to interop testing, do we look for potential harm to other interests? (though maybe we don't need a new document series - maybe we just need a way of designating certain Internet-Drafts as being suitable for interop testing and/or limited deployment) Keith From nobody Thu Nov 7 15:48:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0929F120108; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:48:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sp0LjZNWbCka; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:48:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 546F4120018; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:48:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id c25so3776786qtq.1; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 15:48:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=jrC2dOuhsk8FozouoKxUO/D7r1Zz9pIb6cTYuskpUhw=; b=PvoNZopeyY9rO7ZzStedQn4cFAcS4xe5n9MjQIvF8pyj8DENk4pU93gniMZcqGlwe+ QHT8c0p/igPwzeP8yWgnLZzAopz6h7eOCfSyZCZSG7piSrqn4XELkXtYLYBGO++dCsmn GvXN3ccahAVJXdL12Kgs0DfD6rqwERZOJGdhqGjI1KlfOzmLdA+GGjFYJ2n+NfqG72hL mIBMq05KH2NXxKeD93zyY+5JLF4iugMAZnarh40S0+p29N/49JjoqoyKB8zG+f4Htujb pQT90jjZnwAME8mQeC1SpP22BAl+iof9GZf/ZjcWNDCUVXSR8jAnsTRshKaBxoHop/ot S5IQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=jrC2dOuhsk8FozouoKxUO/D7r1Zz9pIb6cTYuskpUhw=; b=FP9ITgWo3V3VlJFdQGJEZ19GhzCaKeOUq8jGyQD1/9LKjpuW31kerhxj/7TtRzu865 RtCIArFYVN0bGZGSIC8aDui9D/IgOMr9Xh73fFO8AuXPqB0SOs13jsfwirQFlZzFQXWO wsUZu1aAFdOR0wX07JpNPBmFTlshB4D+VWH8GDkCHY5oDiYRkEwvU+fAaWz6DRToZOea 0J3i1nSn57SLSZHoiuCbK+4MyqYC2hosKhLjEAZIMGbXNMlpgWttsRfeQypW+0cHJs5/ W1Ojmei51NaflLNKOp10fDawN6An7/J0wF4f2yr8v3FthWMllOEp4e1E/cBHdzmoZOZE RYXw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUhJBG20MhXBz12gJzQfNY4iKJ3Yol62EhbSHZ2OpJr0/04OJMf FzwkdWsM994VhNW1X1di2p9vcf9N X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqylYw74lYcJg+PMtREqbe1oLrdE2mLbU8T+OhQVO6dcZ/E0nPfhEAVhljNgthfGuwkPyCMYcg== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:745a:: with SMTP id h26mr6716036qtr.192.1573170512035; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 15:48:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.19.36.136] ([2001:4878:a048:3000:dc16:1905:9261:569e]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o13sm2065521qto.96.2019.11.07.15.48.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Nov 2019 15:48:31 -0800 (PST) From: "Aaron Falk" To: "IRTF Discuss" , "IETF WG Chairs" , "IETF Discussion" , "106 attendees" <106attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Let's have some fun: PechaKucha & friends Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 18:48:27 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13r5655) Message-ID: <7C708936-A661-4B93-95F5-F26FDC930A6F@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_21F7F017-1AFA-4180-9C96-ADFB3820000E_=" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 23:48:36 -0000 --=_MailMate_21F7F017-1AFA-4180-9C96-ADFB3820000E_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed; markup=markdown Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A reminder and invitation to contemplate as you prepare for the = Singapore IETF... This is a call for participation in a social event around satirical = short talks. (There is usually beer involved.) In the past, talks = needed to fit the PechaKucha format but it is rather strict (20 slides, = each on screen for 20 seconds, minimal text). So, I=E2=80=99d like to re= peat = the experiment we tried in Montreal. Any talk format will be allowed = (including PK) with a maximum length of 7 minutes. As before, the = topics are encouraged to be a IETF-related and satirical or = controversial in some way, although not mean-spirited. Anyone can = participate in this unofficial social event. Date: Thursday evening (November 21) starting at 9:30pm in Sophia. If you haven=E2=80=99t been to one of these events, Here are two of my = personal favorites from prior IETFs by = [Pete](http://bapk-videos.mamadrum.net/old/IETF-099-Prague-videos/07-pete= -resnick-8.mp4) = and = [Brian](http://bapk-videos.mamadrum.net/old/IETF-099-Prague-videos/IETF-0= 96-Berlin-videos/2_trammel-8.mp4). = Video from the past BA PKs can be found = [here](http://bapk-videos.mamadrum.net). If you want to do a pechakucha, there are lots of online tutorials and = suggestions for how to make a good PechaKucha. Here are a few: = [[1](http://www.pechakucha.org/)], = [[2](http://blog.indezine.com/2012/05/10-tips-to-create-and-present-pecha= =2Ehtml)], = [[3](https://catherinecronin.wordpress.com/2012/06/13/pecha-kucha/)]. As my friend Spencer says: =E2=80=9CMake good decisions, People!=E2=80=9D= Format Details: * Presentation slots are open to all, assigned first come, first served. * To reserve a presentation slot, send a name and title to = aaron.falk@gmail.com and receive confirmation. * Presenters must agree to limit their talks to less than 7 minutes = (strictly enforced using the Lars Eggert Approach). * Slides are due Thursday 6pm in Powerpoint or PDF. --=_MailMate_21F7F017-1AFA-4180-9C96-ADFB3820000E_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A reminder and invitation to contemplate as you prepare f= or the Singapore IETF...

This is a call for participation in a social event around= satirical short talks. (There is usually beer involved.) In the past, = talks needed to fit the PechaKucha format but it is rather strict (20 sli= des, each on screen for 20 seconds, minimal text). So, I=E2=80=99d like = to repeat the experiment we tried in Montreal. Any talk format will be a= llowed (including PK) with a maximum length of 7 minutes. As before, the= topics are encouraged to be a IETF-related and satirical or controversia= l in some way, although not mean-spirited. Anyone can participate in thi= s unofficial social event.

Date: Thursday evening (November 21) starting at 9:30pm i= n Sophia.

If you haven=E2=80=99t been to one of these events, Here = are two of my personal favorites from prior IETFs by Pete and Brian. Video from the past BA PKs can be fo= und h= ere.

If you want to do a pechakucha, there are lots of online = tutorials and suggestions for how to make a good PechaKucha. Here are a = few: [1], [2], [3].

As my friend Spencer says: =E2=80=9CMake good decisions, = People!=E2=80=9D

Format Details:

--=_MailMate_21F7F017-1AFA-4180-9C96-ADFB3820000E_=-- From nobody Thu Nov 7 17:04:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63384120220 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:04:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ss9Z_hOx0gmU for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:04:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9A9D120147 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:04:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DAA03897B; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:01:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC4BE913; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:03:58 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Keith Moore cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] In-Reply-To: References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <10457.1573157263@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 01:04:04 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Keith Moore wrote: >> Would you consider if these new documents are *RFC*s or, would you c= onsider >> if we could make a new document series for these documents? I would = suggest >> that it become the*Proposed Standard* series. That is, we'd change= our >> first step to not be an*RFC*. > At first glance I find this idea appealing.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I'd like to s= ee it explored.=C2=A0=C2=A0 > At lot depends on other factors - e.g. when, relative to interop test= ing, do > we look for potential harm to other interests? When do we do that now? At IESG review, which is what causes such significant delays. That's just too late in the game for an *RFC*, which we can never really ta= ke back. The property that you like about internet-drafts is that they are in principal ephermeral, or more to the point, version NN replaces NN-1, and we can revise them. That's the property you are looking for, I think. > (though maybe we don't need a new document series - maybe we just nee= d a way > of designating certain Internet-Drafts as being suitable for interop = testing > and/or limited deployment) That was proposed a few months ago. See: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/zy2l7gWR8yGRIIt5mYY5WSorqGY I prefer that we create a new series. Maybe it shouldn't be hosted on *RFC= -EDITOR.ORG*, but I'd want the identical infrastructure used. (I would name it after the WG involved. WG-FOOBAR-1234, but I think this is a detail, and I'm not stronly attached) =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3Evv4ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXkSwgAmGeLfkSyeUp7jkDaUR1WZmdEPXT9Cxz2gZWLbCz+F8fC+CadFq0IA+fl UD79rvUMyjy6H9Dp7HwqsuxHwmXcKB8qUdtyvxWTmMKI8irmTGw3cN7YfuEkC4mx /LHwW3ZHx87NOoZGB8u/1rGUp5kobPNoNMi6KBosA+QtXVh6AhPzbn/TPaRx/w1w IiaD1ryTSjynp4oY92VRetLGj1PPd8Y9W354xpawd2RkkRnYh21XaGXMhOyt2VqI cscXWG0kV42zR3l+Wa1z2UpKtLKKHcfTPMZ6q0f/8sFnwgBj8aeH4qz12O4v9vbN E1VdXYWxQXtniWdREHPiQJ0Fib140A== =DMGh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Nov 7 17:05:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2953D12004A for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:05:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2sjDP9YXflwk for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:05:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D56B120147 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:05:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB5F33897B; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:02:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 294C1913; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:05:09 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "ietf\@ietf.org" , Jari Arkko Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] In-Reply-To: <959ECDD1-5DFF-4393-94B8-6425983866D3@akamai.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> <11796.1573157656@localhost> <959ECDD1-5DFF-4393-94B8-6425983866D3@akamai.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 01:05:12 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Salz, Rich wrote: >> My impression from the regular plenary reports on attendance my impression is > that the number of people involved in the IETF is declining, yet the number > of RFCs being processed is going up. > Attendance is perhaps declining, but I don't recall any discussion of > WG email traffic, for example. So the number we need to know is what is the trend for RFCs being processed by a set of authors who are exclusively remote. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3Ev0QACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXJgwgAug69a46nLBXn/TnvUl2dD8vD4I9E/PBAjQTAeBBH+QzOgQ/YOBp5w13M 6K9Nl2OOgSTLQKrhkOHLJpmOC0BcdpRnWXDHq2rujK++PnfNT4WBzc//9lpGq94V z56HK8DYgULl5h8ufDC8ZB45XJUGUcuullVgk7XVj6rvEu/SQPZcQugYiA45rSHq CLeSH/afdFaZ2QLfFPwyC3D0pNH1FgZNjYFgx9OMBuPh7wrIkK4KdR3gS1m2OVVY QrznxFbaSULwoMKjKej3qrTMi9tuTkIHHQvw3cM3oK+OgqVYk36LIZDKve73PKf3 y3fNOQqh1f/ptIIKnWDIosCqk6M7Mg== =VmJ+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Nov 7 17:07:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F213A12004A for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:07:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MmnHmJWmYa-p for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:07:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C35A120147 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:07:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2221F3897B; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:04:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82A3E913; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:07:10 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Keith Moore cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] In-Reply-To: <8b46db76-574a-bd2c-18af-0546dee0fd3e@network-heretics.com> References: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> <3caeb4cf-b92b-99fd-77df-7b1aef3e2979@network-heretics.com> <12884.1573157976@localhost> <8b46db76-574a-bd2c-18af-0546dee0fd3e@network-heretics.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 01:07:13 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Keith Moore wrote: > On 11/7/19 3:19 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: >> Keith Moore wrote: >> > This is where the biggest disconnect between 2026 and reality is.= =C2=A0=C2=A0 If the >> > reality is that industry is going to deploy implementations at Pro= posed >> > Standard or sooner (and as far as I can tell, that's been reality = for as long >> > as there's been an Internet "industry"), it makes sense for IETF t= o recognize >> > that and react accordingly. >> >> You are saying this as if it's a bug. >> It's not! It's by design. >> We deploy at PS in order to find out if there is interoperability. > My first impression is that this is indeed a bug, a tremendous disser= vice to > Internet users.=C2=A0=C2=A0 But I remind myself that automatic softwa= re update is > becoming increasingly common.=C2=A0=C2=A0 So at least for products th= at are certain to > be run on Internet-connected hosts (as opposed to, say, on air-gapped > networks), and for which secure update can be provided, there might be > cases An alternative view is that air-gapped systems should only run Internet Standards. > I could imagine that rather than the initial RFC being at PS, it coul= d be > (for some cases, probably not all) at something akin to what Draft St= andard > used to be - interop testing already done by the time the initial RFC= is > published, with any changes made as a result of the testing incorpora= ted into > that RFC. I think that we kept the wrong two steps! >> > If we want there to be a prototype "just for testing" status, it s= hould >> > probably be called something other than Proposed - the name has co= me to mean >> > something else in IETF context.=C2=A0=C2=A0 And we should delibera= tely change one or >> > more protocol elements to make the standard incompatible with >> >> We do "just for testing" regularly at the internet-draft stage. > yeah, and it doesn't make sense to go through the whole RFC publicati= on > process just to agree on a specification to test to. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3Ev70ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WV4mwgAoqglPxZZJ6Bl6kdMXYgLh3Bc978pkH4xddoBSnYdlTRU4zwtByQ/RnSW QMq6V7dxBBVnIQRwZDF3PMq8TBN1KOx2BevysIo/cYHVPQG8zDvDno7mYZfrmlw9 i0K5A9pFjVu1+0GUZrSlMqSZdj4QupxwiIcq91PRPdhSGtMbFuB9TbF5aPgmQpoa vnZkV6PJblaDBIHIMYFL2ji/6Vli60TIRz0EBVavxVB0+3BlZlaTwSSxpVdtFGhe gLFj+83z9bHJCkyoqO06CcyD6BZ332yzHb0f3/IFka8QDpOpX86fRgcrWx393CLP ZbhHocsHbfLyXNPEWZijnevEIIJ7nQ== =0weD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Nov 7 17:31:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED8D1200CC for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:31:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w_v5qMjWttOz for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:31:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x636.google.com (mail-pl1-x636.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::636]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0178312004A for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:31:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x636.google.com with SMTP id d29so2881678plj.8 for ; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 17:31:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VwxmtpkGnx3pRXjBvHEveU8gzvBGfTJENAeDuFQeaL0=; b=sN4cqPomWsWI0r4irFh/lXHD7l7nOehUlnnXV2BtdEqPi1cWVrGZtUb9S+MYUcZRUN kvdMOuw3PBTMm9DrbRztPy2yFtt21VKe/JXQbbh5pV9625w2Oijo8GIjVkOTLyjapdlZ WJi+BbQSzljppVgncfUHWtorHZEJ9GKqr/OyjHFV4anJ5E/juKZ94Sw/oKBOF+RMbDP7 PUm55DvOztnJuRqFu/lW7iwL4O+wcEnZ6QwuY8375yiZ1gZeKdHRM+gmvewekIuSuF1r 2TcTFKFvl9lpZC39Rdj6UuTzce78aAP3XEyyq6ElDEvRIvTclheRFXr5S1Q84/758WiH M2tQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=VwxmtpkGnx3pRXjBvHEveU8gzvBGfTJENAeDuFQeaL0=; b=TCaLCgy9ue8FfdOxgm7+BIFX/Ci5CADtCzsWrBBBDC3spL6uIZhWwpSmEQ6L1tV6c8 HHryzBeec24LqI6FBoKO4To+rvtYnSf2+Is8/LAFWa0Sb+HJWDY8smSqF8wh/mru5lme wyrN6/INyTia0Qoi3EdsC4wkpaMncTfpUgcUB0b0o/8giWnmcCGuSVEtm2JlzDLGUB9p 9j6Xm8PsGyn0ZiNLFbzpOmT9yj3hE7Qis0vTPto/z3nS1rNRRP1iuYoKuswC6TTAgVt/ OUc3CvzfTM5fQB5UY5lHqMzIYRQppXdVm3vdx1Rwzk2nmQN9la2kGgHnwpFJUO+VA9km Zcog== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV6OeaTuuIwuj8fzG2tcR21090QckKZf+XuQjN+Yhb9UW3SRQkd oZPASRDmaTf5kVKqAxZXOCQI0NKc X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyymBZL6YDAljfL0jOR3Byuk5AHD5PLIZVDaqmuxilxN32GQpQrsuywkRJP7nZUoI7pTyOfbw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:17ad:: with SMTP id q42mr9829188pja.100.1573176674049; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 17:31:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (8.166.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.166.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y10sm4341013pfe.148.2019.11.07.17.31.11 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Nov 2019 17:31:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] To: Nico Williams , Keith Moore Cc: ietf@ietf.org References: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> <3caeb4cf-b92b-99fd-77df-7b1aef3e2979@network-heretics.com> <20191107194408.GF12148@localhost> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <9eab2c4e-455e-c3cb-cdf7-9c3467ada06c@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 14:31:08 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20191107194408.GF12148@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 01:31:16 -0000 One more comment and then an alternative thought experiment: On 08-Nov-19 08:44, Nico Williams wrote: ... >> But my guess is that the only way to get buy-in for Prototype specifications >> would be to convincingly promise faster development. > > Yes. That includes faster RFC-Editor turnarounds. If we remove the > other bottlenecs, then RFC-Editor queue time will become the next > bottleneck to address. In my experience (i.e. I have not run stats) the long delays are mainly caused by missing normative references, i.e. are a result of IETF rules and IETF slowness, not a problem caused in any way by the RFC service. The quickest way to improve the RFC queue statistics would be to abolish the rule that I-Ds cannot be used as normative references. Anyway: my new experiment would be one that the IESG could decide to start tomorrow. It's simply that the IESG would only ever issue one form of DISCUSS ballot, which would look like this: Pat Areadirector has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-somewg-somedraft-99: Discuss ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- There are still open issues from the following reviews: In other words, the IESG simply busy-waits until all review issues have been resolved, rather than finding and fixing the issues personally. (If an AD wishes to post a review for a given draft, that would be a personal choice, not part of the IESG workload.) This is a procedural change, and would not prevent a substantive DISCUSS in unusual circumstances. Brian From nobody Thu Nov 7 17:39:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F4F41200CC for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:39:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5RREkKeiEbjD for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:39:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32A7412004A for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:39:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F6073897B; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:36:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 880C5913; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:39:48 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Brian E Carpenter cc: Nico Williams , Keith Moore , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] In-Reply-To: <9eab2c4e-455e-c3cb-cdf7-9c3467ada06c@gmail.com> References: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> <3caeb4cf-b92b-99fd-77df-7b1aef3e2979@network-heretics.com> <20191107194408.GF12148@localhost> <9eab2c4e-455e-c3cb-cdf7-9c3467ada06c@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 01:39:52 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Brian E Carpenter wrote: > One more comment and then an alternative thought experiment: > On 08-Nov-19 08:44, Nico Williams wrote: > .... > Anyway: my new experiment would be one that the IESG could decide to > start tomorrow. It's simply that the IESG would only ever issue one form > of DISCUSS ballot, which would look like this: > Pat Areadirector has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-somewg-somedraft-99: Discuss > .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > There are still open issues from the following reviews: > okay, interesting idea. > In other words, the IESG simply busy-waits until all review issues > have been resolved, rather than finding and fixing the issues > personally. Let's be clear: that means that reviewers are expected to engage with authors to get the issues resolved. This might surprise some reviewers. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3Ex2QACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXKKwgApFT9KJnIc0ehL8ysTInP+CwLPDSfNpUJ1nF+fFRd+GR3hG418tIY9k+y AhvjTMgwELbmuWMpRlAp1DapQh/nNs4NPNXOPT+7Cz0dAU4MPihzObmlo6EXHmCO O/LODOduwOgVEETvVIQNHpL5QEg0VMmCv8wEkz2G+wevd2H4rGUd3mlHHYO4N6Iw yJyavAj10f2Lw756I+fcsG5PtZ+AhQ36TDQW0iiMb4msx1fRTMPFWUET5Wf9Yi/V 6EhYSX8Hpsr3TdT+572DAzAdEmR83SnUEbvoGLwuHEv7cDwq11AVFRl57m0aTgds T6Q5auuNDGKcDunxBGjy4dVp1HnJIg== =fuJv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Nov 7 17:42:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1955A1200CC for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:42:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6II6C12HrOjL for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:42:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x435.google.com (mail-wr1-x435.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::435]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490F112004A for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:42:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x435.google.com with SMTP id b3so5179802wrs.13 for ; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 17:42:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=urFwLoPS+rBJYItq3zlTeEXUiyKHvHTTao09p0Gec5A=; b=tdPr+nvipmkFZh4ZdGQfbieuIBh+z1ZheGkbSZVeXX289cdsBGdX6rn/jTyXL8fP5U DARzY0WuQ7nS4CMTEeAXHQgBibem4fHhB3azcDxQsRgzsTNz7sjFSBaQaoRntR/0SHZP IDUoC5zlBtesRyOQ8GqVkzD7vErb7NKLb9ifdTVxmUQrJpb/FZ2IXru6CCH2MNwQmEcf 2GMZhfM19qeq1WKD3nYX+jLDohulXmLFLfUf2aHnYLmgZICUM7ZvVGMZ0abhs/Uv8wcB Qcn+rpHpv0EK6OfevHfPZuDzC2QqMyK478qdV2M9edzRpKvAzig7LN2LYv8xUYyMnpLC 2/ug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=urFwLoPS+rBJYItq3zlTeEXUiyKHvHTTao09p0Gec5A=; b=pw0Y76bGP14qse8z0M2qrR+iw29QMwGjdKZ1saXzLbqbbgM3GzRxkOiw4kX0RXn8zC VjJhLwAabvSCtPgw5n7bjpfqvT0GFNrfjmMZljIZf2RxYrlnALvwNp7RkIoN4VMha8z3 2FHW+dXCGoA1Nqy0U/fiuNAtIKWA6m0JKEfZsQd0QMAc4wbN/X3y9IpI0P36Phc2/wZg jCRAxlbiDYSQpDEK3ELXNYe5lJ9XYAeZ9c6wcs/gHUc5jvPTGtxlY2tljtjMcHPCU3e8 G+NLnTDOf6dx9JVR5ZNsYWPKVtUVt4SEVAJV9mgLY544XZdQhBskI8lvn2oBXVIfFW1D /2gw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWugejsxIzmoz1ypyrSEpLGm7p1VkhxO8/9Cvg+9OoaV83b68EV Vp6uc2hVsFswH3ojvJbknk0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxQWVwp7RwKNlXzjv+7OaKY0fVmCcfq0+HH3+f/ZqRbYZrxQh9I+7uK+xrDU96tBS3LwpYo4Q== X-Received: by 2002:adf:fb0b:: with SMTP id c11mr6039592wrr.50.1573177345665; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 17:42:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:dcc8:ba76:7e6f:8cb9? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:dcc8:ba76:7e6f:8cb9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 76sm5097258wma.0.2019.11.07.17.42.23 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Nov 2019 17:42:24 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <12A2A91C-3773-4C63-89EA-5D187B858E14@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4621A53B-5F8B-4881-93EA-FF2F524BDAE4"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:42:19 -0800 In-Reply-To: <27509.1573177188@localhost> Cc: Bob Hinden , Brian Carpenter , Keith Moore , IETF To: Michael Richardson References: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> <3caeb4cf-b92b-99fd-77df-7b1aef3e2979@network-heretics.com> <20191107194408.GF12148@localhost> <9eab2c4e-455e-c3cb-cdf7-9c3467ada06c@gmail.com> <27509.1573177188@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 01:42:30 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4621A53B-5F8B-4881-93EA-FF2F524BDAE4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Michael, > On Nov 7, 2019, at 5:39 PM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> One more comment and then an alternative thought experiment: >> On 08-Nov-19 08:44, Nico Williams wrote: >> .... >> Anyway: my new experiment would be one that the IESG could decide to >> start tomorrow. It's simply that the IESG would only ever issue one = form >> of DISCUSS ballot, which would look like this: >=20 >> Pat Areadirector has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-somewg-somedraft-99: Discuss >> .... >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> DISCUSS: >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >> There are still open issues from the following reviews: >> >=20 > okay, interesting idea. >=20 >> In other words, the IESG simply busy-waits until all review issues >> have been resolved, rather than finding and fixing the issues >> personally. >=20 > Let's be clear: that means that reviewers are expected to engage with = authors > to get the issues resolved. This might surprise some reviewers. Or better, the Document Shepard takes an active role to get the issues = resolved. Bob --Apple-Mail=_4621A53B-5F8B-4881-93EA-FF2F524BDAE4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl3Ex/sACgkQrut0EXfn u6itSAf/bYm5PIgDB2lcf+geQIM0wUeJaLVKDxwiku1QrsBIIwaoM43ogYtxR7Y3 MrONo5pygS8A8FEpzzy54+dDEAaH0BD7WXck/XhpKdkY5Bh3Iu5u32Ustq1KMXE0 9mjt+yPhQKbYtOxRqv6sV1mEEMMnKRWRNUZCh9noiDJS3/Xsq5XpqoMdiIpM7MoQ A/45+JAaU9M+R/dU48h+w19yGXyBP3NxQ6CC6iEpng6WnzcoB4iUcomFXzE6bKxe e4lCZWAhVLilomWMF8W9f17PwX0F5MJsuDyfYz3XdCkiSaM55JdW9xozw/h0xksA vfxjp5M2rQydYFD5XoMjONorVlpNNA== =P+q7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_4621A53B-5F8B-4881-93EA-FF2F524BDAE4-- From nobody Thu Nov 7 17:43:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15E7A1200F6 for ; 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Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:43:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <10457.1573157263@localhost> <18928.1573175038@localhost> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:43:14 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <18928.1573175038@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 01:43:19 -0000 On 11/7/19 8:03 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > Keith Moore wrote: > >> Would you consider if these new documents are *RFC*s or, would you consider > >> if we could make a new document series for these documents? I would suggest > >> that it become the*Proposed Standard* series. That is, we'd change our > >> first step to not be an*RFC*. > > > At first glance I find this idea appealing.   I'd like to see it explored. > > At lot depends on other factors - e.g. when, relative to interop testing, do > > we look for potential harm to other interests? > > When do we do that now? At IESG review, which is what causes such > significant delays. I'm frankly not sure that cross-area review causes significant delays or even that IESG review causes significant delays.   I could argue instead that what causes those delays is working groups producing documents that are not suitable for the intended status.   When WGs produce broken documents that are hard to fix, this can be very time consuming for IESG.   In practice, IESG is expected to find some path to approving such documents. Sometimes there's just no good fix, and even poor fixes can be quite time consuming to come up with. In my experience, well-written, thorough specifications are generally relatively easy to review; the documents that are overly long or poorly written (so it's hard to tell what is really intended, or whether the protocol will work reliably) or that seem to be potentially harmful are much harder and more time consuming to review.   So people shouldn't automatically assume that "delays in IESG" are IESG's fault. But I will certainly agree that by the time a document gets to Last Call and after, it's usually too late to fix fundamental design flaws - and I would count failure to research and consider interests that might be harmed as a design flaw.    And yet, I don't think narrowly-focused WGs can be entrusted to consider a broad spectrum of interests - that really has to be an IETF-wide review. > That's just too late in the game for an *RFC*, which we can never really take > back. The property that you like about internet-drafts is that they are > in principal ephermeral, or more to the point, version NN replaces NN-1, > and we can revise them. That's the property you are looking for, I think. Close but maybe not quite.   Fundamentally, a specification that's being interoperability tested _should_ be an ephemeral version.   The whole purpose in doing the testing is the realization that it will likely need to be changed based on implementation and testing.   And the whole approval and RFC process takes too long to wait for it to be done before testing - it would basically cause a pipeline stall if people did it that way.   Testing at PS might have made sense long ago when there were fewer interests at stake, fewer procedures to follow, and the publication process was lightweight - but even then I don't think the testing that was anticipated between PS and DS happened very often.   Also, external conditions have changed a lot since 2026 was written.  Testing over the public Internet, or setting up a private testing VPN, are more practical than they used to be. Group collaboration tools can be used effectively to coordinate tests today whereas face-to-face meetings were once considered a practical necessity.    Computers are faster, have more memory, languages are better, and cloud resources can be used to simulate load.     And the general expectation is that product iteration cycles are much tighter than was once the case.   It makes sense to adapt IETF processes to suit these new realities. Implementation concurrent with specification development, and testing _before_ IESG review make a LOT of sense, IMO.   I think it would shake out bugs that are difficult for IESG to see, and favorable testing results would give IESG more reason to have confidence that the protocol actually works. To me it looks like that with a judicious reordering of constraints, we should be able to make time-to-completion more predictable AND produce higher quality documents. > > (though maybe we don't need a new document series - maybe we just need a way > > of designating certain Internet-Drafts as being suitable for interop testing > > and/or limited deployment) > > That was proposed a few months ago. See: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/zy2l7gWR8yGRIIt5mYY5WSorqGY The devil is in the details.   I read that proposal as subtly different but in an important way.   Marking a draft as "stable" is to me a very different thing than marking it as "here's a version we're going to subject to interoperability tests".   It's perfectly reasonable in my mind to test portions of a protocol that there's general agreement on, even while knowing that some new features will need to be added before the protocol is ready for Last Call. > I prefer that we create a new series. Maybe it shouldn't be hosted on *RFC-EDITOR.ORG*, > but I'd want the identical infrastructure used. I'm not sure we actually disagree on this aspect, but just in case we do:  I don't see why a process as heavyweight as RFC publication is needed for this.   It seems to me that except for the minor change of being able to mark internet-drafts with a few specific attributes, and the ability of the tools to search for such drafts by those attributes (maybe a few automatically generated pages), the existing I-D publication process is about right.   But I'd be interested in hearing specific reasons why this isn't the case. Keith From nobody Thu Nov 7 17:54:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27FB1120043 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:54:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ulmCKcw2pnV9 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:54:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCE63120018 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 17:54:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EBBF543; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:54:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 07 Nov 2019 20:54:24 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=U5BAaNJUB1Lt9qU+aHENYwf9DLcZ15WqXwtF8YkB2 A4=; b=Q4mgeNt9DgPCubzSosLp9k+NQrsPwf71/bD+48/rZ61sanrAVRYXD23UP aTEIF2RfzCkNexzrEdcEoOnz3pw2GFm8PZ66g9WjdwTLf0blqiptVIFkpmvWd3Kk UJpGJV5dOFO7719bXRzDvRATTO/c6Z+4lUtjI1IRIpjHEw7BC94npKGdtkEpEYyn Q03JR0u5J9NF82onqvoQeYWNJqvnE9UgkJCKHU7xw2HkamYfxrsSI2O5EpUW3CrV ufl3c0z/UL2VyIhqpAfxGLFTx382IktveBC2gbdsNTY0x90vF47JDlsX8j+UGusg bZMpNe+OytsjhCWhFzYnXHG9FQ3dQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedruddvtddgfeelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrud ehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghr vghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 508B0306005B; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:54:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] To: ietf@ietf.org References: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> <3caeb4cf-b92b-99fd-77df-7b1aef3e2979@network-heretics.com> <20191107194408.GF12148@localhost> <9eab2c4e-455e-c3cb-cdf7-9c3467ada06c@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <4e105279-9e8b-0fbe-4e96-0a0616e5fc3c@network-heretics.com> Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:54:20 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9eab2c4e-455e-c3cb-cdf7-9c3467ada06c@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 01:54:27 -0000 On 11/7/19 8:31 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Anyway: my new experiment would be one that the IESG could decide to > start tomorrow. It's simply that the IESG would only ever issue one form > of DISCUSS ballot, which would look like this: > > Pat Areadirector has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-somewg-somedraft-99: Discuss > .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There are still open issues from the following reviews: > > > In other words, the IESG simply busy-waits until all review issues > have been resolved, rather than finding and fixing the issues > personally. > > (If an AD wishes to post a review for a given draft, that would be > a personal choice, not part of the IESG workload.) > > This is a procedural change, and would not prevent a substantive > DISCUSS in unusual circumstances. To me the problems seem like: (a) getting sufficient reviews done, and (b) establishing review criteria well in advance, not only for the reviewers but also as feed-forward to the WG and document editors.  (not that reviewers couldn't identify issues outside of those criteria, but having a somewhat-shared view of those criteria would make it easier to compare different reviews for example) I keep looking for ways to identify these criteria earlier in the process.   Not that there would never be last-minute showstoppers - we're always learning new things.   But if we could reduce the number of late surprises that would make everything easier IMO. Keith From nobody Thu Nov 7 19:52:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D4DC12006E for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 19:52:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jc09Wc63-4R0 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 19:52:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from brown.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (brown.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6992D12013A for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 19:52:28 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 970293C0279; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 03:52:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a18.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-14-250.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.14.250]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1C1613C0700; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 03:52:27 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a18.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Fri, 08 Nov 2019 03:52:27 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Desert-Whistle: 23841db54d7c192a_1573185147364_2107066429 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1573185147364:1977083794 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1573185147364 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a18.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a18.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B73BD8E0F3; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 19:52:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=NT14ZqyWHuUDvf tK9FyMFCwab0I=; b=qVle4sm/nEQtRu+P/hnogR5mI+gGJs5nnTl/dnm0U3vcTr 96D3ni2/r2HQV4ZSwPpRh/pPrSR0Ho+V/i4FdDpbnwPAppGAp9Dv1l3X2iESD/5p XfmGbq8LfX2x8PJNlZ8skI3/Mgs2YyaJq+lLHcoVkou0kzs9x18cvYw7Wz0S0= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a18.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D9F618D7AF; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 19:52:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 21:52:19 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a18 From: Nico Williams To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Keith Moore , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] Message-ID: <20191108035218.GH12148@localhost> References: <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> <3caeb4cf-b92b-99fd-77df-7b1aef3e2979@network-heretics.com> <20191107194408.GF12148@localhost> <9eab2c4e-455e-c3cb-cdf7-9c3467ada06c@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9eab2c4e-455e-c3cb-cdf7-9c3467ada06c@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 03:52:30 -0000 On Fri, Nov 08, 2019 at 02:31:08PM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Anyway: my new experiment would be one that the IESG could decide to > start tomorrow. It's simply that the IESG would only ever issue one form > of DISCUSS ballot, which would look like this: > > Pat Areadirector has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-somewg-somedraft-99: Discuss > ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There are still open issues from the following reviews: > > > In other words, the IESG simply busy-waits until all review issues > have been resolved, rather than finding and fixing the issues > personally. > > (If an AD wishes to post a review for a given draft, that would be > a personal choice, not part of the IESG workload.) Reviewers would be responsible for making sure that ADs find their reviews. WGs/ADs/shepherds should help make sure reviewers know this. I'm OK with this! Keith's point about insufficient review can still be addressed by having shepherds notice and report this (and ADs notice this independently), thus triggering additional AD/directorate review. > This is a procedural change, and would not prevent a substantive > DISCUSS in unusual circumstances. +1 Nico -- From nobody Thu Nov 7 19:54:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41C0F12013A for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 19:54:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iFQOBaUnV_gf for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 19:54:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from cheetah.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (cheetah.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 572A112006E for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 19:54:18 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B63CC7404CF; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 03:54:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a18.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-8-64.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.8.64]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 34E6E740A5E; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 03:54:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a18.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Fri, 08 Nov 2019 03:54:17 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Trouble-Juvenile: 622ceaf979f7d8cf_1573185257457_4274028628 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1573185257457:1211573768 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1573185257457 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a18.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a18.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EEB98E039; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 19:54:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=iy1G/xgthuwDxd fM94vc90ef+dk=; b=doDuJZuZ656E+PVdtRrYtrreOIGhucenprRtEqH9kBHwqA 2wdQ7xwVPBWOOhoyJLvNdTuRzSzZyTU6YU6BUJliR+yEYfz77FpU7qmAhoU+Ig2u s34A8/FaYxYmPKFSInHCF0rTygbL6eOohYM+0IsvXRmulRTtgFdeCMZ48CFcQ= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a18.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7B14F8DEA3; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 19:54:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 21:54:09 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a18 From: Nico Williams To: Bob Hinden Cc: Michael Richardson , IETF , Keith Moore Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] Message-ID: <20191108035408.GI12148@localhost> References: <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> <3caeb4cf-b92b-99fd-77df-7b1aef3e2979@network-heretics.com> <20191107194408.GF12148@localhost> <9eab2c4e-455e-c3cb-cdf7-9c3467ada06c@gmail.com> <27509.1573177188@localhost> <12A2A91C-3773-4C63-89EA-5D187B858E14@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <12A2A91C-3773-4C63-89EA-5D187B858E14@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 03:54:20 -0000 On Thu, Nov 07, 2019 at 05:42:19PM -0800, Bob Hinden wrote: > >> In other words, the IESG simply busy-waits until all review issues > >> have been resolved, rather than finding and fixing the issues > >> personally. > > > > Let's be clear: that means that reviewers are expected to engage with authors > > to get the issues resolved. This might surprise some reviewers. > > Or better, the Document Shepard takes an active role to get the issues resolved. The shepherd already has to write a summary, including a summary of review obtained among other things, so we already have the right process for making sure reviews don't get dropped. But sure, WG chairs, ADs, and shepherds can also make sure to educate reviewers. Nico -- From nobody Thu Nov 7 20:01:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A041201DB for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:01:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SiMVDh7e2pN4 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:01:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from buffalo.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (buffalo.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CE5512006E for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:01:19 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A845774085B; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 04:01:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a18.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-85-194.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.85.194]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 0A6EE740CB1; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 04:01:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a18.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Fri, 08 Nov 2019 04:01:17 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Befitting-Arch: 46771785093bd022_1573185677439_2581979310 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1573185677438:3559817881 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1573185677438 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a18.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a18.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EFAD8E28B; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:01:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=oGqLLuRVf5i0t9Y4Z5ROL72apdY=; b=XNdpURxRvDJ WcU9ikuphZupSl+2e3osSTlX0zJ6hbe1eFIWFxMdJl8CPRIa5oBrYRCmNEYfniF/ MFFFfJepRceNtabgEDj4qbpSPstIQ/O85T+Y5/WPh9EZj6nXV3nPrSK09rexP+MK JYxLecKolnxo4XDq3uPMI9IekyAO8H/0= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a18.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E733C8E039; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:01:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 22:01:08 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a18 From: Nico Williams To: Keith Moore Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] Message-ID: <20191108040107.GJ12148@localhost> References: <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> <3caeb4cf-b92b-99fd-77df-7b1aef3e2979@network-heretics.com> <12884.1573157976@localhost> <8b46db76-574a-bd2c-18af-0546dee0fd3e@network-heretics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8b46db76-574a-bd2c-18af-0546dee0fd3e@network-heretics.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 04:01:22 -0000 On Thu, Nov 07, 2019 at 04:36:25PM -0500, Keith Moore wrote: > On 11/7/19 3:19 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Keith Moore wrote: > > > This is where the biggest disconnect between 2026 and reality > > > is.=A0=A0 If the reality is that industry is going to deploy > > > implementations at Proposed Standard or sooner (and as far as > > > I can tell, that's been reality for as long as there's been > > > an Internet "industry"), it makes sense for IETF to recognize > > > that and react accordingly. > >=20 > > You are saying this as if it's a bug. > > It's not! It's by design. > > We deploy at PS in order to find out if there is interoperability. >=20 > My first impression is that this is indeed a bug, a tremendous > disservice to Internet users.=A0=A0 But I remind myself that automatic > software update is becoming increasingly common.=A0=A0 [...] >=20 > Also, PS criteria were specifically not designed for deployment; the > idea was that you need interop testing before deploying.=A0=A0 But if > interop testing were incorporated earlier in the process (which does > seem to be more common these days) then the sequencing assumed by 2026 > might be suboptimal. Progressing from PS->DS->Standard requires reporting on interop. Publishing a DS does not. IETF doesn't do anything to facilitate interop testing either. Ah, memories of Sun's old Connectathon events. Maybe IETF could sponsor a similar event. It's essentially a lot like a weeklong hackathon, but where the goal is to have implementors interop test rather implement. Nico --=20 From nobody Thu Nov 7 21:53:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07ED012004A for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 21:53:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5hU-C6YK5oaf for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 21:53:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-001b2d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-001b2d01.pphosted.com [148.163.156.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58EFA120041 for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 21:53:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0098394.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-001b2d01.pphosted.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id xA85qVsg094959 for ; 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Thu, 7 Nov 2019 22:21:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.2.12] (helo=xmail02.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1iSxeG-0001fm-3L for ietf@ietf.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 22:21:32 -0800 Received: (qmail 15236 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2019 06:21:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.106]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.113]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail02.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 8 Nov 2019 06:21:31 -0000 To: Nico Williams , Keith Moore Cc: ietf@ietf.org References: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> <3caeb4cf-b92b-99fd-77df-7b1aef3e2979@network-heretics.com> <20191107194408.GF12148@localhost> From: Christian Huitema Autocrypt: addr=huitema@huitema.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFIRX8gBCAC26usy/Ya38IqaLBSu33vKD6hP5Yw390XsWLaAZTeQR64OJEkoOdXpvcOS HWfMIlD5s5+oHfLe8jjmErFAXYJ8yytPj1fD2OdSKAe1TccUBiOXT8wdVxSr5d0alExVv/LO I/vA2aU1TwOkVHKSapD7j8/HZBrqIWRrXUSj2f5n9tY2nJzG9KRzSG0giaJWBfUFiGb4lvsy IaCaIU0YpfkDDk6PtK5YYzuCeF0B+O7N9LhDu/foUUc4MNq4K3EKDPb2FL1Hrv0XHpkXeMRZ olpH8SUFUJbmi+zYRuUgcXgMZRmZFL1tu6z9h6gY4/KPyF9aYot6zG28Qk/BFQRtj7V1ABEB AAG0J0NocmlzdGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hIDxodWl0ZW1hQGh1aXRlbWEubmV0PokBOQQTAQIAIwUC UhFfyAIbLwcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEJNDCbJVyA1yhbYH/1ud6x6m VqGIp0JcZUfSQO8w+TjugqxCyGNn+w/6Qb5O/xENxNQ4HaMQ5uSRK9n8WKKDDRSzwZ4syKKf wbkfj05vgFxrjCynVbm1zs2X2aGXh+PxPL/WHUaxzEP7KjYbLtCUZDRzOOrm+0LMktngT/k3 6+EZoLEM52hwwpIAzJoscyEz7QfqMOZtFm6xQnlvDQeIrHx0KUvwo/vgDLK3SuruG1CSHcR0 D24kEEUa044AIUKBS3b0b8AR7f6mP2NcnLpdsibtpabi9BzqAidcY/EjTaoea46HXALk/eJd 6OLkLE6UQe1PPzQC4jB7rErX2BxnSkHDw50xMgLRcl5/b1a5AQ0EUhFfyAEIAKp7Cp8lqKTV CC9QiAf6QTIjW+lie5J44Ad++0k8gRgANZVWubQuCQ71gxDWLtxYfFkEXjG4TXV/MUtnOliG 5rc2E+ih6Dg61Y5PQakm9OwPIsOx+2R+iSW325ngln2UQrVPgloO83QiUoi7mBJPbcHlxkhZ bd3+EjFxSLIQogt29sTcg2oSh4oljUpz5niTt69IOfZx21kf29NfDE+Iw56gfrxI2ywZbu5o G+d0ZSp0lsovygpk4jK04fDTq0vxjEU5HjPcsXC4CSZdq5E2DrF4nOh1UHkHzeaXdYR2Bn1Y wTePfaHBFlvQzI+Li/Q6AD/uxbTM0vIcsUxrv3MNHCUAEQEAAYkCPgQYAQIACQUCUhFfyAIb LgEpCRCTQwmyVcgNcsBdIAQZAQIABgUCUhFfyAAKCRC22tOSFDh1UOlBB/94RsCJepNvmi/c YiNmMnm0mKb6vjv43OsHkqrrCqJSfo95KHyl5Up4JEp8tiJMyYT2mp4IsirZHxz/5lqkw9Az tcGAF3GlFsj++xTyD07DXlNeddwTKlqPRi/b8sppjtWur6Pm+wnAHp0mQ7GidhxHccFCl65w uT7S/ocb1MjrTgnAMiz+x87d48n1UJ7yIdI41Wpg2XFZiA9xPBiDuuoPwFj14/nK0elV5Dvq 4/HVgfurb4+fd74PV/CC/dmd7hg0ZRlgnB5rFUcFO7ywb7/TvICIIaLWcI42OJDSZjZ/MAzz BeXm263lHh+kFxkh2LxEHnQGHCHGpTYyi4Z3dv03HtkH/1SI8joQMQq00Bv+RdEbJXfEExrT u4gtdZAihwvy97OPA2nCdTAHm/phkzryMeOaOztI4PS8u2Ce5lUB6P/HcGtK/038KdX5MYST Fn8KUDt4o29bkv0CUXwDzS3oTzPNtGdryBkRMc9b+yn9+AdwFEH4auhiTQXPMnl0+G3nhKr7 jvzVFJCRif3OAhEm4vmBNDE3uuaXFQnbK56GJrnqVN+KX5Z3M7X3fA8UcVCGOEHXRP/aubiw Ngawj0V9x+43kUapFp+nF69R53UI65YtJ95ec4PTO/Edvap8h1UbdEOc4+TiYwY1TBuIKltY 1cnrjgAWUh/Ucvr++/KbD9tD6C8= Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] Message-ID: <4222b3ba-6623-c103-7007-b60810d1f95a@huitema.net> Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 22:21:30 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20191107194408.GF12148@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.197.101 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.197.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.197.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0T9zDZOvA8ND4p2eQxdfzLSpSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhV+vYkTNyo5qug 7qlCh+2Ze0TNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDAzc5Jb/eaE0k3pqeq35lKbgN zB/4Jkrw1eDLcif59fv02AB73PEm+1K1JTyYQHdBU7Tmz6iKnkQL9gqsxD347235Nhqq+/HvroPq 8GSPg+5aB4itzNZ07CdqP+KMfGjQPLhBThvdgyPN49yzDQzRHY6jSvfpO+1kZkomjtjB6X5Q5Q9f RUeIpTIC2ySfqvnqLwoxlgatmaBb0rBiK9xbkDrUqzcKIief90MVLZY9LbIZh9+IQ1oS9LBn3VIP 95Jz7ujRlJ9wSMlhvaudJXZ9EIBG/qaR+8r9SKFMmPJLf850OvZYsmoVQuOIhwKLK6IKBNB4LZ0v UHHKTzJX7b1JhLSQQ4vSj0QEim26t/Moy0UPX5E73H1QfrH/5kkrV/Cr0bm2vWdo8usP65i82q1C dZgGrpL44wdx9eXqjQjbvUopOMQJvQ/Ck3iiU+4DQAj3fuQgzT3K9JUHTNiGwfwAm/WxnoDhSIwu dyqaU1JgcKMOW4CkjtZBB9EE1lU6QPXuuRc5BJfWkEoPDLfg3j7mHAeYUOp7A73HI6oJg7w/VocK FIxNlsy2WJpil5s07kEDyBw3j/aBxjxoZyMqfIL/jJq7xqDoiTjjGpNS1XGXbXIPC9uGc2FUS9x6 7iWLXKlgAztqzrCt4TZ/wLtujY/tpTho1PdwcEx/e/d4Me/ObNSBCBfU0yN0Iog90cluGtVoPAlb DjazCbhs7qBpykynMha5/rijjcguRYfyvX/qs6DS+a8btAxURkcD5kkAgmG083g9ueTJOU6a76yp yxjdeg8YhWenlMfuvb1mNY5/IPiuedK/Z3MvnAyDmuOaA5CGZRWsGw8ac2InzcAP/gmxwNpms+rB 6wJM+NNhN3aT35NSU/fjw6KbqLw80r1gDO3m6U0LjBzYuQztdAThgtWSU3qCINKqlAdh+ePAcEwD s/8= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 06:25:20 -0000 On 11/7/2019 11:44 AM, Nico Williams wrote: > Yes. That includes faster RFC-Editor turnarounds. If we remove the > other bottlenecs, then RFC-Editor queue time will become the next > bottleneck to address. That's not what the numbers say. I took a hard look at the delays in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-huitema-rfc-eval-project-01, and the RFC Editor queue time is by no means the largest part of the delay from 1st draft to RFC publication. The RFC Edition delay proper is about 2 months on average, plus about 1 month on average for the Auth48 period. The edition delay does not vary much, but the Auth48 delay varies a lot, and the main reason for this variability is the responsiveness of the authors. In the path from 1st draft to RFC, the bulk of the delays happen in the working group. In my sample set, the average delay from start to finish is 3 years and 3 months, of which on average 2 years and 8 months are spent getting consensus in the working group. -- Christian Huitema From nobody Thu Nov 7 23:11:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 892E112009E for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 23:11:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mLFa_t9dRvgm for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 23:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 190FC12000F for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 23:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25C9A6601C4; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 09:11:33 +0200 (EET) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AJ-lpobWt5Jw; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 09:11:29 +0200 (EET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 085B0660130; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 09:11:28 +0200 (EET) From: Jari Arkko Message-Id: <26D1F92D-67A9-4F96-9FFF-76D525C4BE6E@piuha.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_19694D5A-ED86-4712-8A07-AF79F22B3F57" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Subject: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews]] Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 09:11:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: <11796.1573157656@localhost> Cc: ietf@ietf.org To: Michael Richardson References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> <11796.1573157656@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 07:11:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_19694D5A-ED86-4712-8A07-AF79F22B3F57 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > My impression from the regular plenary reports on attendance my = impression is > that the number of people involved in the IETF is declining, yet the = number > of RFCs being processed is going up. I think the reports tell you that persons in meetings is going down. = I=E2=80=99m not sure we have data to say number of people involved is = declining. Could be offset by people who are remote in the meetings or = people who only use mailing lists but still participate effectively. The number of RFCs is not going up, it went up (peaking at 2006 and = 2011) and has been in somewhat of a decline since then. See = https://arkko.com/tools/rfcstats/pubdistr.html = and = https://www.rfc-editor.org/report-summary/ = (Note that on my stats the = last year numbers are always a bit off, because the years aren=E2=80=99t = complete. So don=E2=80=99t look at 2019 too much.) > And the number of conflicts seems to be going up because so many more = people > are involved in quite a range of WGs. How does this compare to ten = years > ago? I'm not even sure I know what number I want to ask for here. >=20 > Jari, can you tell if we have more unique authors from your stats = system? > Are we individually producing more documents? Are we collaborating = across > communities more often, which is why we have more conflicts? >=20 > It seems like it must be that more of the people involved are writing > documents. Did we have more people who were exclusively "tourists" = before? I don=E2=80=99t have an easy way to answer all your questions. I did = pull the following stats from my server though. These are the unique = authors (or explicitly named contributors) in RFCs published per year. = So, the number of distinct people who published at least one RFC. (Note: = again, don=E2=80=99t look at 2019, and I don=E2=80=99t have a good way = of assessing how accurate the author identification is over all RFCs. = Reader beware.) 2001 396 2002 408 2003 454 2004 448 2005 561 2006 713 2007 582 2008 509 2009 490 2010 630 2011 703 2012 599 2013 537 2014 562 2015 698 2016 711 2017 630 2018 541 2019 370 The highest levels of unique authors occurred in 2006, 2011, and 2016. = The two of the first years co-incide with high RFC production levels, = but 2016 did not. Eyeballing this, I=E2=80=99d say the number of unique = authors seems to vary but I don=E2=80=99t see a recent drop-off. Pretty = healthy numbers I=E2=80=99d say, even, if 600-700 people manage to = publish RFCs and the meetings draw 900-1100 people. I have anecdotal impression that conflicts are up because there=E2=80=99s = a set of people who are key contributors across multiple areas and WGs. = I could dig up some further stats on that, but not right now. Jari --Apple-Mail=_19694D5A-ED86-4712-8A07-AF79F22B3F57 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

My impression from the = regular plenary reports on attendance my impression is
that = the number of people involved in the IETF is declining, yet the = number
of RFCs being processed is going up.

I= think the reports tell you that persons in meetings is going down. = I=E2=80=99m not sure we have data to say number of people involved is = declining. Could be offset by people who are remote in the meetings or = people who only use mailing lists but still participate = effectively.

The= number of RFCs is not going up, it went up (peaking at 2006 and 2011) = and has been in somewhat of a decline since then. See https://arkko.com/tools/rfcstats/pubdistr.html and&nbs= p;https://www.rfc-editor.org/report-summary/ (Note = that on my stats the last year numbers are always a bit off, because the = years aren=E2=80=99t complete. So don=E2=80=99t look at 2019 too = much.)

And the number of conflicts = seems to be going up because so many more people
are = involved in quite a range of WGs.   How does this compare to = ten years
ago?  I'm not even sure I know what number = I want to ask for here.

Jari, can you tell = if we have more unique authors from your stats system?
Are = we individually producing more documents?  Are we collaborating = across
communities more often, which is why we have more = conflicts?

It seems like it must be that = more of the people involved are writing
documents. =  Did we have more people who were exclusively "tourists" before?

I don=E2=80=99t have an easy way to answer all your = questions. I did pull the following stats from my server though. These = are the unique authors (or explicitly named contributors) in RFCs = published per year. So, the number of distinct people who published at = least one RFC. (Note: again, don=E2=80=99t look at 2019, and I don=E2=80=99= t have a good way of assessing how accurate the author identification is = over all RFCs. Reader beware.)

2001 = 396
2002 408
2003 454
2004 = 448
2005 561
2006 713
2007 = 582
2008 509
2009 490
2010 = 630
2011 703
2012 599
2013 = 537
2014 562
2015 698
2016 = 711
2017 630
2018 = 541
2019 370

The highest levels of unique = authors occurred in 2006, 2011, and 2016. The two of the first years = co-incide with high RFC production levels, but 2016 did not. Eyeballing = this, I=E2=80=99d say the number of unique authors seems to vary but I = don=E2=80=99t see a recent drop-off. Pretty healthy numbers I=E2=80=99d = say, even, if 600-700 people manage to publish RFCs and the meetings = draw 900-1100 people.

I have anecdotal impression that conflicts are up because = there=E2=80=99s a set of people who are key contributors across multiple = areas and WGs. I could dig up some further stats on that, but not right = now.

Jari


= --Apple-Mail=_19694D5A-ED86-4712-8A07-AF79F22B3F57-- From nobody Thu Nov 7 23:31:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5B9912009C for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 23:31:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HmEhNWAMpPuA for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 23:31:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71C8412003E for ; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 23:31:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 079A021910; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 02:31:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 08 Nov 2019 02:31:42 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=oSdzK3DAngYk/587hvFbK4aiqT4jz9MluzbFH54T5 o4=; b=BMCI0YUv8R/iod3Q82MgpyuKjrlQ96j6ETWO31KFCSWsMJMTZuHdG00y7 TFKEpclOkp1yI3KL8nvUtD6ZA358iAFrZXe3hjYvMn4pKTIu5K5UagTetDxxOzhJ 69tJJeKu3uTZjoimsoIgHTwuY0jPsLz7FXsgTBvUg/8piO4lmjA3OyYs0iHyhbtl Kk6k4c+PFbCb2LrWX0aICwx0FRz7diLr6lE5eDScaRqpXbdhKDnrbzfEFNxkz/9H TZ8LyyO1CZBvg2b/XTU8eqTTn/M3dkgQzp5URcNK73yAXE8ODXuOobH4tj9dj7yI 7DfI6e/3vIcNYA1y39UTjHraRE7TQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedruddvtddgudduudcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvght fihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecukfhppedutdekrddvvddurddukedtrd duheenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgv rhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 6E465306005B; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 02:31:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews]] To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> <11796.1573157656@localhost> <26D1F92D-67A9-4F96-9FFF-76D525C4BE6E@piuha.net> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <5ae8bb9f-3aa6-b930-70e7-d38d7bc46c07@network-heretics.com> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 02:31:38 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <26D1F92D-67A9-4F96-9FFF-76D525C4BE6E@piuha.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 07:31:45 -0000 On 11/8/19 2:11 AM, Jari Arkko wrote: > Pretty healthy numbers I’d say, even, if 600-700 people manage to > publish RFCs and the meetings draw 900-1100 people. To me it sounds unhealthy.   If meeting attendance is an indicator of the number of active participants, it sounds like about half of the participants are publishing an RFC every year. With that many authors I have to wonder how many people have time to participate in discussion of others' documents.   Of course a person can author one document while discussing others, but it's easy for an author's attention to others' drafts to diminish while revising his own draft. Keith From nobody Fri Nov 8 01:28:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38A9212084F for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 01:28:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jzy0pRIapE5Z for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 01:28:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E86F120833 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 01:28:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1521; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1573205327; x=1574414927; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=Slxs/SZYEtS71MQPYLVAxJmSr/UurBpSoGFPnttWG2E=; b=DGBeSl9RCxVRSC89iIbS7MG0qV10rOEpnbK5E5Pt2Hl6XwtY/pQgjJVO TNS7fsKHXzY7EcXR1VCRCRoyi2+hhK28NUGuJ4wqa/uLq/u/DfX3CM1os /NWjVPT35LSAUSse6ioFpsT7VGyua08XCcQ2rou8sv7hWK5WRcZT73vxV I=; X-Files: signature.asc : 488 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0APAAAHNMVd/xbLJq1lGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBAQEBEQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBgW0BAQEBAQELAYNgIBIqhCmJA4gniVa?= =?us-ascii?q?RUQIHAQEBCQMBAS8BAYRAAoQyNwYOAgMLAQEEAQEBAgEFBG2FQ4VSAQUdBlY?= =?us-ascii?q?QCxgqAgIhNgYTFIMOAYJGAy6xWHWBMoVOgkENghsQgTYBgVKKWYF/gREnH4J?= =?us-ascii?q?MPoIbhToygiwElk6WfkGCLoI2gRWNZ4QSG4IsEIdhhA6LSpkOjBGDGQIEBgU?= =?us-ascii?q?CFYFoI4FYMxoIGxVlAYJBPhIRFJ59QAMwAZEnAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.68,280,1569283200"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="18904344" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 08 Nov 2019 09:28:45 +0000 Received: from [10.61.204.59] ([10.61.204.59]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id xA89SiKF017121 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 8 Nov 2019 09:28:45 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_45D59405-7C3E-47E6-B663-CE380DC6D7F1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback] Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 10:28:43 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: ietf To: Brian E Carpenter References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <0053C5D9-E4D7-4BE0-9B73-3B7FC25561FB@akamai.com> <20191105092422.GA61969@kduck.mit.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.204.59, [10.61.204.59] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 09:28:49 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_45D59405-7C3E-47E6-B663-CE380DC6D7F1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 5 Nov 2019, at 23:54, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 >=20 >> 2) sometimes the directorate reviews come too late for the IESG = ballot for approval >=20 > In that case, perhaps the response should be to defer the ballot = automatically, and make it public that the reason is a late review. Please not automatic. It takes forever to get documents through the = system as is. It=E2=80=99s understandable that sometimes a deferral is = appropriate. But the AD needs to make that call, not a computer. Eliot --Apple-Mail=_45D59405-7C3E-47E6-B663-CE380DC6D7F1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAl3FNUsACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejP+Cwf/f+xMuHv5hqDFiC7GQsaeeGcSmbnnNIPzd33xHep93ddSHc4BYmUazOGP 0CPF5HkdYDRZ0Ioql+qBWpvBFVw4O2lK4W41g66M3CR7i1x9mV9caWKCwHBALakK 6eAia4IddwAy5/XWx8Qj/1Zo/48BlOvZZV6f5pMchMpr+pJPLAFjPUHBRwpHHi1i pyzNQGCM/r0h+wvZ2GwdILPXhLEozccxytwkmWC7+KsvGtEixDoKke0OxLAyRSIw l9XpMKirBshCygPxps/d+4I68aYB2cGU0+wPehb1P7Z9sSt+Bf8Oy9VZMBVLlaSl 6TopNRkEDCxzdKk0LxgxyYzmn0AcjQ== =qbEa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_45D59405-7C3E-47E6-B663-CE380DC6D7F1-- From nobody Fri Nov 8 01:50:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4E04120870 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 01:50:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UdwtIpEE7xwS for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 01:50:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from clarinet.employees.org (clarinet.employees.org [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E33CC12085B for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 01:50:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from astfgl.hanazo.no (unknown [IPv6:2a02:2121:283:c860:5cf:f858:ab78:eeb1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by clarinet.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9CFEE4E11B44 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 09:50:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astfgl.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD94721F38C8 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 10:49:54 +0100 (CET) From: Ole Troan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) Subject: Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback] Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 10:49:54 +0100 References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <0053C5D9-E4D7-4BE0-9B73-3B7FC25561FB@akamai.com> <20191105092422.GA61969@kduck.mit.edu> To: ietf In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3601.0.10) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 09:50:04 -0000 I have for a long time been uncomfortable with the level of document = changes that happens after the document leaves the working group. =46rom my perspective I would have preferred a document process, where = the working group "owned" the document until publication. For cross-area issues: The responsible AD together with the chairs should identify cross-area = conflicts and need for collboration earlier in the process. And as = chairs/responsible ADs escalate cross area issues, those should be = discussed in the IESG while document is in the working group. If a document isn't good enough, the IESG should send it back to the = working group. Not try to "fix" it themselves (often in a small group = between chairs, authors and ADs). Basically I want the IESG for leadership. I want the IESG for quality = control. I do not want the IESG to have to read every document, nitpick = or even (gasp) override working group consensus. Executive summary: More leadership less document editing. Cheers, Ole From nobody Fri Nov 8 05:56:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAE3B1200F9 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 05:56:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ln_TnJCsGfe0 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 05:56:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C73D212003F for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 05:56:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1iT4kP-000Cz6-BH; Fri, 08 Nov 2019 08:56:21 -0500 Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 08:56:15 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Keith Moore , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews]] Message-ID: <335EAA17262BD4585E4E8964@PSB> In-Reply-To: <5ae8bb9f-3aa6-b930-70e7-d38d7bc46c07@network-heretics.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> <11796.1573157656@localhost> <26D1F92D-67A9-4F96-9FFF-76D525C4BE6E@piuha.net> <5ae8bb9f-3aa6-b930-70e7-d38d7bc46c07@network-heretics.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 13:56:26 -0000 --On Friday, November 8, 2019 02:31 -0500 Keith Moore wrote: > On 11/8/19 2:11 AM, Jari Arkko wrote: >=20 >> Pretty healthy numbers I'd say, even, if 600-700 people >> manage to publish RFCs and the meetings draw 900-1100 = people. >=20 > To me it sounds unhealthy.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If meeting attendance = is an > indicator of the number of active participants, it sounds like > about half of the participants are publishing an RFC every > year. With that many authors I have to wonder how many people > have time to participate in discussion of others' > documents.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Of course a person can author one = document > while discussing others, but it's easy for an author's > attention to others' drafts to diminish while revising his own > draft. Keith, As Jari cautioned, those numbers have to be interpreted with care. For example, the number of documents with many authors has has risen over the years since Jon Postel aggressively pushed back against the practice. We also have issued documents that are revisions of older ones. In general, original author names have been retained even when newer authors have been added on and the actual involvement of the original ones has been minimal. There may also be issues with listed contributors because, at the discretion of a WG or whomever is holding the pen, that category may include someone who contributed a concept or a few critical paragraph, but who was not otherwise significantly involved in the production of the document. Even Jari's comment that you quote is problematic because, while 600-700 people may have their names on RFCs that are published, sometimes it is accurate to say that they published them and sometimes some of them are just names. Even the definition of "author" may differ from one document to the next. We also aren't careful about distinguishing between authors and editors. For example, with a document that is really developed by a WG, the "author" may be mostly a compiler of WG comments and text rather than a contributor of and advocate for original ideas. Either may involve a great deal of time and effort, but the kind and level of involvement is different. I even know of at least a couple of often-cited RFCs in which there are several listed authors but none of them, independent of their intellectual or other contributions, actually provided any significant fraction of the published text. Similarly, comparing author counts to f2f meeting registrations does not quite work and is probably getting worse over time as meeting costs rise and active remote participation increases. We should have at least approximate numbers by now for total registered participants, but probably not reaching back to the point that Jari is comfortable with the authorship numbers.=20 I can imagine ways to estimate numbers and control, in the statistical sense, for some (but not all) of those issues without, e.g., interviewing authors or doing a careful document-by-document evaluation. They all would require a lot of work. Maybe others disagree, but I'd rather see the people who would probably need to do that work spending their time on substantive technical contributions instead. But, without doing that work (at least), inferences about how many people are writing documents and therefore not evaluating those of others seems fairly close to pure speculation. best, john From nobody Fri Nov 8 06:21:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90B6412089B for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 06:21:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kbv-a6FZdbgv for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 06:21:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.127]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E5ED1208DD for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 06:21:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050102.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. 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charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2019-11-08_04:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=957 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1910280000 definitions=main-1911080143 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.95,18.0.572 definitions=2019-11-08_04:2019-11-08,2019-11-08 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=939 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 priorityscore=1501 impostorscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1910280000 definitions=main-1911080143 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 14:21:40 -0000 DQo+ICAgIEkgaGF2ZSBmb3IgYSBsb25nIHRpbWUgYmVlbiB1bmNvbWZvcnRhYmxlIHdpdGggdGhl IGxldmVsIG9mIGRvY3VtZW50IGNoYW5nZXMgdGhhdCBoYXBwZW5zIGFmdGVyIHRoZSBkb2N1bWVu dCBsZWF2ZXMgdGhlIHdvcmtpbmcgZ3JvdXAuDQoNCk1lIHRvby4gIEluIEFDTUUsIEkgdHJ5IHRv IHBhc3MgYW55IHN1YnN0YW50aXZlIGNoYW5nZXMgdG8gdGhlIFdHIHRvIHNlZSBpZiBhbnlvbmUg aGFzIGEgcHJvYmxlbS4gIEVkaXRvcmlhbCBjbGFyaWZpY2F0aW9ucywgSSBkb24ndCBib3RoZXIg d2l0aC4NCg0KSSBhZ3JlZSB0aGF0IFdHTEMgc2hvdWxkIG5vdCBtZWFuICJsZXQgYW5vdGhlciBz bWFsbGVyIGdyb3VwIGdldCBhIHdoYWNrIGF0IGl0Ig0KDQo= From nobody Fri Nov 8 07:36:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5256120288 for ; 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Fri, 8 Nov 2019 10:36:04 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews]] In-reply-to: <335EAA17262BD4585E4E8964@PSB> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> <11796.1573157656@localhost> <26D1F92D-67A9-4F96-9FFF-76D525C4BE6E@piuha.net> <5ae8bb9f-3aa6-b930-70e7-d38d7bc46c07@network-heretics.com> <335EAA17262BD4585E4E8964@PSB> Comments: In-reply-to John C Klensin message dated "Fri, 08 Nov 2019 08:56:15 -0500." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 10:36:04 -0500 Message-ID: <10164.1573227364@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 15:36:09 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John C Klensin wrote: >>> Pretty healthy numbers I'd say, even, if 600-700 people manage to >>> publish RFCs and the meetings draw 900-1100 people. >>=20 >> To me it sounds unhealthy.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If meeting attendance is an i= ndicator of >> the number of active participants, it sounds like about half of the >> participants are publishing an RFC every year. With that many authors >> I have to wonder how many people have time to participate in >> discussion of others' documents.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Of course a person can = author one >> document while discussing others, but it's easy for an author's >> attention to others' drafts to diminish while revising his own draft. > Keith, > Even Jari's comment that you quote is problematic because, while > 600-700 people may have their names on RFCs that are published, > sometimes it is accurate to say that they published them and sometimes > some of them are just names. Even the definition of "author" may > differ from one document to the next. We also aren't careful about > distinguishing between authors and editors. For example, with a > document that is really developed by a WG, the "author" may be mostly= a > compiler of WG comments and text rather than a contributor of and > advocate for original ideas. Either may involve a great deal of time > and effort, but the kind and level of involvement is different. I ev= en So an alternate stat may be the number of unique people who upload to the Datatracker. So that would require, for each RFC published, getting the li= st of people who uploaded. That would be a lower bound on number active authors. The numbers Jari has would be the upper bound. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl3Fi2QACgkQlUzhVv38 QpCHyQf9H334zXm7aIUWq8xpfTGaw5X2yLx5NENiLVOTQZKGKCZpOSgPg1TwjTJw FWTm8XkrbCszWcyAVY0paIeI8DlWPbMPHOX7PEVx47shODiHrh2j0covkCTNfwux qRiC0M68KVOG8eMxyFg0CiCcZFrgfI+xsfSDE1aMB+2aSojVQsSFXndhELabGNM0 pypL49oEWmjXQUOoQRD9Q4wXSa6KYYz4yO7dwiWwrETjU2EgmoeZ0d7iA9ImELgP WerU7R+rkr2k5cDVd38fGXOkVGwg5EzlqSf1Ccd3dcX0buzjyByLu63qIoiIPZmN fLn/iK0lZj0WGkmlr4t7qFIz21YyqQ== =zOMR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Nov 8 08:02:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B84B120AE0 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 08:02:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zM2xoVX74T2u for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 08:02:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x836.google.com (mail-qt1-x836.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::836]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06E21120AE9 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 08:02:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x836.google.com with SMTP id c25so6394982qtq.1 for ; Fri, 08 Nov 2019 08:02:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1tWzM/pl95T9808MKq8uWoM0WwAlFFE4eQrGgA1vyMY=; b=iggQyAn+tPBefQAd0GfL1ICco/++nuTRMuXwwaw7WfR1+8mYSxMxMHjOipHfhLzqeo nSTxy35chJ49CPNveTpdikZxz0tHdyU4fPVyaAhZOGz1c8xfbGXegYRRRHKsJnsebyJZ sokCJ/9NwrVdcxl0z0vmG4vHV+/qNEoSiJZgM+MouHB5YjsA+f53nES7rQ7HkMzJlfrZ u2041RHdOxk1ocbQ3ES034L3lI91Nb/l8ez5UuKOQu3aJqrCptfA+UmteYXLCKR4q4kK nRiI0q6IxyZA9KhyE8Bq/gMmK3ecygGHHifMTuE5/eKfKnNGGHjbnBFV6Ftvkkrrx5L6 TRkw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1tWzM/pl95T9808MKq8uWoM0WwAlFFE4eQrGgA1vyMY=; b=ldBaK/0GPqT3E5zgs3mgPxkUqB09lldYUgGOAGfiRpFK1PA4Qx0idlT2jgOS7yEIji c7910ziGgrAJ6/JKZvU6ImbGn2rCARePwPuW2x87zjxz8Qe7zLPpxk9Xp0Egp4L69/Eq OwtoZ5Vt5kDFoR1yVr+m7cmtRz3ZeQHtCRLNSHr9tSC2MldY2HkF820si7KnutZquqtK k9GCkqG+VGyUYGpzJuVW9iE6Xkcx+3JKk7d88OSLpD0DoRpKOKjOGK32wH9qBfKTLauT /62LiYZ+i0t9zs//7gCwA5mIM0QX5mAF+s4toqOImgFHGIqfh6nYTL4KTye/AZaShGgw VIRw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWGNnL2U3fLGTPSWIt3RG8WOBYQZr75q2EMC5bVGhfC7lEATtIy rfR/bIFl9srQ8Pk2QIfcFlzi2NG1xw2SycmjohmC3umgw5o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzc4vGpcQ2GJTUHGpgaVIxPb3c1xVAeILkbvE+1/2MLeKdw2QDGgaulphT1W2kQmGM65IYixNM60GRJPxbw9Hk= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:2dc9:: with SMTP id q9mr11521502qta.219.1573228941892; Fri, 08 Nov 2019 08:02:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> <11796.1573157656@localhost> <26D1F92D-67A9-4F96-9FFF-76D525C4BE6E@piuha.net> <5ae8bb9f-3aa6-b930-70e7-d38d7bc46c07@network-heretics.com> <335EAA17262BD4585E4E8964@PSB> <10164.1573227364@dooku.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <10164.1573227364@dooku.sandelman.ca> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 11:02:09 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews]] To: Michael Richardson Cc: IETF Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003b61e60596d7e8a3" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 16:02:28 -0000 --0000000000003b61e60596d7e8a3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Michael, > So an alternate stat may be the number of unique people who upload to the > Datatracker. So that would require, for each RFC published, getting the > list > of people who uploaded. That would be a lower bound on number active > authors. > The numbers Jari has would be the upper bound. > That would include Internet Draft authors as well as RFC authors, but I think that's a better metric of how many active authors we have in a given year. Except now we have authoring happening on GitHub as well, which is more difficult to track. For example, how many active authors do we have in the QUIC WG? Tough to say without looking at their GitHub document update history. Cheers, Andy --0000000000003b61e60596d7e8a3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Michael,
=
=C2=A0
So an alternate stat may be the number of unique people who upload to the Datatracker.=C2=A0 So that would require, for each RFC published, getting t= he list
of people who uploaded.=C2=A0 That would be a lower bound on number active<= br> authors.
The numbers Jari has would be the upper bound.

That would include Internet Draft authors as well as RFC authors, b= ut I think that's a better metric of how many active authors we have in= a given year.

Except now we have authoring happen= ing on GitHub as well, which is more difficult to track. For example, how m= any active authors do we have in the QUIC WG? Tough to say without looking = at their GitHub document update history.

Cheers,
Andy
=C2=A0
--0000000000003b61e60596d7e8a3-- From nobody Fri Nov 8 08:26:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 033371208EF for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 08:25:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OoeBeR4xNany for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 08:25:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11E5612089E for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 08:25:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47162210B8; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 11:25:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 08 Nov 2019 11:25:54 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=xa51HLn+jGfXeM4D5D5vwBscJLKUoBBYKb/rXwBel Qw=; b=kP2XdEar+7lu0l6JZtfI3gVkAQ9Fej49xRf57WGU5lj1vOgAT8BfRjMXa KmPm5+BDN99s2rZMiCtGGkemE/IjDXC5zfu9Em1NeVaQWes+GPVcsd+96sCMqsBO Wl1Sl3VsBvvq85xf5C6+T3CQdVihIn+m4j3Vrh14goMcR7Bq5kiB1Lm11LZ5lOCc Ld7qpRHQXYvoahMDCDl5dYZ2o4+O398isXHh8IFhxcLQdRk6tyv3FBqWSbMjcSc9 TJqdRq6qP4EjECTd/VPDpFHmA/+bBOKEHbgLBFJPpAZB9saRAPJPG7nvxqh9OnAV aIjA2t1+qMCi3rDB7/XPaxn/V9B6w== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedruddvuddgkeelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrud ehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghr vghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1FC12306005E; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 11:25:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback] To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <0053C5D9-E4D7-4BE0-9B73-3B7FC25561FB@akamai.com> <20191105092422.GA61969@kduck.mit.edu> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <7740e21f-83b1-ef83-965a-c599a0746ae3@network-heretics.com> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 11:25:52 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 16:26:02 -0000 On 11/8/19 4:49 AM, Ole Troan wrote: > I have for a long time been uncomfortable with the level of document changes that happens after the document leaves the working group. > > From my perspective I would have preferred a document process, where the working group "owned" the document until publication. > > For cross-area issues: > The responsible AD together with the chairs should identify cross-area conflicts and need for collboration earlier in the process. And as chairs/responsible ADs escalate cross area issues, those should be discussed in the IESG while document is in the working group. That's too few people, IMO.   Also there's a tendency to call them "cross-area issues" but I think that can be misleading. What I have seen time and time again was that a WG or document author would make decisions that would, for example, harm the ability of the Internet to support a certain kind of application.   But even a typical Applications AD wouldn't necessarily realize that, because "applications" is tremendously broad.   (These days the ART area is even broader.) I see no substitute for a community-wide review.   A message is sent to an appropriate list (maybe lastcall, maybe not) that summarize the WG's charter and list each of the documents being worked on and describes how they fit into that charter.   The message states that the chairs and IESG are interested in knowing whether these solutions harm other interests, and more generally solicit community feedback on the approach (keeping in mind that Z1 and Z2 are probably not finished yet), and there's a special email address for the feedback that must be used.     Either make those solicitations for review explicitly part of a WG's schedule, or automatically trigger them at one year intervals after a group has started.   The WG chairs would have the responsibility of writing those descriptions, any responses would be recorded and made publicly available, the WG chair would summarize the responses for the IESG, and the WG is expected to respond to substantive feedback. > If a document isn't good enough, the IESG should send it back to the working group. Not try to "fix" it themselves (often in a small group between chairs, authors and ADs). Agree with the latter part.   IESG is in a poor position to "fix" a document, especially so late in the process, though the same is true of a WG that has labored years to produce something before even being aware of potential harm that they're doing.   That's why the reviews need to be done well before a group thinks the document is complete. > Basically I want the IESG for leadership. I want the IESG for quality control. I do not want the IESG to have to read every document, nitpick or even (gasp) override working group consensus. Mostly agree, though I don't see how the IESG can provide meaningful quality control without each AD at least skimming the documents that are relevant to that AD's area.     But I have always thought that the IESG and other reviewers should point out the problems and the WG should figure out how to fix them.   But they need that feedback as early as possible so they can take that input into account when making their compromises.    "Last Call" and IESG review should be stopgap measures, not the only means by which a WG gets feedback from other parties.  Most of the time final IESG review should be more of a process review than a technical review.    But part of that process review should consider how the document addressed external feedback. Keith From nobody Fri Nov 8 08:40:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1648712083C for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 08:40:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hx8ISaZ24syX for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 08:40:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42f.google.com (mail-wr1-x42f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F278012083B for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 08:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id t1so7794495wrv.4 for ; Fri, 08 Nov 2019 08:40:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=cRmY0pQpSdLiOTHUkSJIzTxiK7osd9hSRrckInDZMbo=; b=GN3jVefX/D4QEfJJ9kUp0h763DUXo1HuKhS5X5tyJ+sSNjvvC4fAr1XKAoXJ9dLCXQ arYvFU/dGAj0EbwoPi1vGBlX2c4PUw/P5+HcJP9K5fqXkvNbIEkemqqovP3XP8N3ocbQ zWOHjULn3e5M1oL2p8VwbTG5b6aSL2GTeu9nJtA/BEr7uuy/johU+9AS9vN+xxFoO+C5 7VuhvW3RuHT8gg53jOjpc9T1/m5/Cu2K0oXrGahxpGD5SGvg4VMR/Lnx54fcWo74akQX pfAf8Z37EryjBuxfkdWZ7Do9+cAY7fJ1mBNQbJROlGAxPVVzsWc+ASCrHS50C9Ws0iGP G6zQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=cRmY0pQpSdLiOTHUkSJIzTxiK7osd9hSRrckInDZMbo=; b=M3FfK9VJ0n3Ixv9MLbrp4Dm6pIXZZu1aKJrFBDKpWiOyPN9M6dgaWMeY9xH9JRssNZ wQVHUmjvVgkDad05pBbkRfJjOpm/kSpe9tqrGsJscWkOkQTGo1W5wHgBTQY5uaRUjgyw W0Tg6unQAA2LAd72LrLAC/k7+GHvXkCNCowsn5GBoFDDZw6FD05Vk5H+FypglvHkWBNr eIg8gHX4FxtLEQkLz7xmdXBn/9ifZu6hNTGiJsgtNhm0XJsQ5sJlOxezNXBaXjBOyTZm Umx64RoX1IMdovmvZS7i4zNPhaZSkVEduYV6hdjCp9n50wH4kbVrwf30jS1hUP3sFOP1 SL+g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWokkcBaL67rfzIHn+zjg8Glj9xwWTof/+Y774Zmy39jkrlSBX/ uPnhSnLEBLByE2q5B+bbJzw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzCqZXdGRlmQIR2qwN2KWCDTCaiF/V/4CMnqLNkf46jDMJrDn9G9HZ6kDV7gOc56qSb4AN2jA== X-Received: by 2002:adf:e602:: with SMTP id p2mr9728937wrm.348.1573231223434; Fri, 08 Nov 2019 08:40:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:5474:2844:85aa:476? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:5474:2844:85aa:476]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b14sm8704824wmj.18.2019.11.08.08.40.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 08 Nov 2019 08:40:22 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <5BB75458-1B2C-46F3-A402-B9C845B054F5@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_41063D75-71C9-4658-8290-0D60279F9E3D"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 08:40:19 -0800 In-Reply-To: <4222b3ba-6623-c103-7007-b60810d1f95a@huitema.net> Cc: Bob Hinden , Nico Williams , IETF To: Christian Huitema References: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <20191107014849.GC12148@localhost> <57465486-71b1-a87a-fa8c-bad7157f9025@gmail.com> <3caeb4cf-b92b-99fd-77df-7b1aef3e2979@network-heretics.com> <20191107194408.GF12148@localhost> <4222b3ba-6623-c103-7007-b60810d1f95a@huitema.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 16:40:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_41063D75-71C9-4658-8290-0D60279F9E3D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Christian, > On Nov 7, 2019, at 10:21 PM, Christian Huitema = wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 11/7/2019 11:44 AM, Nico Williams wrote: >> Yes. That includes faster RFC-Editor turnarounds. If we remove the >> other bottlenecs, then RFC-Editor queue time will become the next >> bottleneck to address. >=20 > That's not what the numbers say. I took a hard look at the delays in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-huitema-rfc-eval-project-01, and the > RFC Editor queue time is by no means the largest part of the delay = from > 1st draft to RFC publication. The RFC Edition delay proper is about 2 > months on average, plus about 1 month on average for the Auth48 = period. > The edition delay does not vary much, but the Auth48 delay varies a = lot, > and the main reason for this variability is the responsiveness of the > authors. >=20 > In the path from 1st draft to RFC, the bulk of the delays happen in = the > working group. In my sample set, the average delay from start to = finish > is 3 years and 3 months, of which on average 2 years and 8 months are > spent getting consensus in the working group. That=E2=80=99s matches my experience as well. Also, one of the significant causes for long delays in the RFC Editor = queue is mis refs. That is, when it has normative references to drafts = that are not yet approved. This can add considerable delay and can=E2=80= =99t be speeded up by the RFC Editor. Bob --Apple-Mail=_41063D75-71C9-4658-8290-0D60279F9E3D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl3FmnMACgkQrut0EXfn u6jCCQf/Xzc5MWFjcGOmalUsUupuHkaz5Bn7fezrIZUVS0PXe/9mVSNxZludrFgg +Lv9RSLQPL3b4LJDzjRDA9HHYimr3YPdQfKLZEfefXAvivd8DWu007P77JpTYkJG 8wEmYHKCDKAhC/3pJ/P1A2S7muD1vXUqrS/Ohf2VmxEJrX7SIrvOuD4iB/FHZKP4 NqPy909g+/7HpmDZ0ByHY9ZJrzNnOiawzZhfB16GqKiWoveIxqsHcbk2ou6BtifW +N34nIZ+7stInzZpkr+2LDv71zeTZAVJQRFrmg5E1oPEQ1ZLzrRoGRnCbK/nUVoR sTuL/zuEaD4KvgRhHBokTEFOoQb7yw== =U4gi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_41063D75-71C9-4658-8290-0D60279F9E3D-- From nobody Fri Nov 8 08:49:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9A0312086D for ; 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Fri, 8 Nov 2019 11:49:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews]] To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> <11796.1573157656@localhost> <26D1F92D-67A9-4F96-9FFF-76D525C4BE6E@piuha.net> <5ae8bb9f-3aa6-b930-70e7-d38d7bc46c07@network-heretics.com> <335EAA17262BD4585E4E8964@PSB> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <09c0dd6c-a64a-b4bf-5d74-8f3f9399f037@network-heretics.com> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 11:49:23 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <335EAA17262BD4585E4E8964@PSB> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 16:49:27 -0000 On 11/8/19 8:56 AM, John C Klensin wrote: > As Jari cautioned, those numbers have to be interpreted with care. For what it's worth, I interpreted those numbers as the number of documents rather than the number of authors, because they seemed to be roughly consistent with the yearly numbers of RFCs produced elsewhere. Keith From nobody Fri Nov 8 09:06:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF408120861 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 09:06:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mwI9dztIQfwG for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 09:06:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B597120873 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 09:06:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:40::aef]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 488381F452; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 17:06:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 0BB9EEB7; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 12:06:04 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "Andrew G. Malis" cc: IETF Discussion Subject: Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews]] In-reply-to: References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> <11796.1573157656@localhost> <26D1F92D-67A9-4F96-9FFF-76D525C4BE6E@piuha.net> <5ae8bb9f-3aa6-b930-70e7-d38d7bc46c07@network-heretics.com> <335EAA17262BD4585E4E8964@PSB> <10164.1573227364@dooku.sande lman.ca> Comments: In-reply-to "Andrew G. Malis" message dated "Fri, 08 Nov 2019 11:02:09 -0500." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 12:06:04 -0500 Message-ID: <11067.1573232764@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 17:06:10 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew G. Malis wrote: >> So an alternate stat may be the number of unique people who upload to >> the Datatracker. So that would require, for each RFC published, >> getting the list of people who uploaded. That would be a lower bound >> on number active authors. The numbers Jari has would be the upper >> bound. > That would include Internet Draft authors as well as RFC authors, but= I > think that's a better metric of how many active authors we have in a > given year. Well, the complexity is that one has to get the list of RFCs, then the list of uploads for each RFC. > Except now we have authoring happening on GitHub as well, which is mo= re > difficult to track. For example, how many active authors do we have in > the QUIC WG? Tough to say without looking at their GitHub document > update history. Thus a reason why I'd like to have the list of contributors/acknowledgements in a structured format in the document :-) =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl3FoHsACgkQlUzhVv38 QpAW+gf/SBs4kxGDEZbAFFqKrdDE4iuQ6evYRR/UcvDnA6M19CvyC2JIIpDKc8HH rrAptV61UNCUr6+pLxPsKKeW+ak22NKt84vtkEnSlyYVj4uybLO6JIyjJhlBtbdB gYT/1KB3uyn+eoyn4Fgwx8u8l2Cjfn8/dhbUqY6rbvBpSU/uWR2rQY+jqH0LQOLX RQ1LZMb8gYbXsiGD0JpNXOFX7V6/qyykhGU5SsI43vISsJq1uFkPS373v9lWJcJS QPhKgQ5W7CYbpGZnylqh+T13eLbxWqd7NPmlV0IbUKVrUS8UfM/sRVVDEtJsWLGt iqNrPnPKGVJ+SjdLqXipgIO0cwq5cw== =sQ8m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From john@widor3.jlc.net Tue Nov 5 07:58:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6837112001A for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 07:58:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.103 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.103 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Zhz_hw3u6MH; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 07:58:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from widor3.jlc.net (unknown [68.233.165.229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47AB3120089; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 07:58:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by widor3.jlc.net (Postfix, from userid 104) id B3E6B62042; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 10:57:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 10:57:59 -0500 From: John Leslie To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: "Livingood, Jason" , Paul Wouters , Kyle Rose , "nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org" , ietf Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Message-ID: <20191105155759.GC53355@widor3.jlc.net> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 11:21:57 -0800 X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 16:16:04 -0000 On Mon, Nov 04, 2019 at 07:54:52PM +0000, Salz, Rich wrote: > > I wonder what people think would break if we moved to 5 AD's per area, > and they could divide the WG's and IESG concalls amongst themselves? The whole process would break. :^( (I don't know whether that's good or bad...) Beyond question, the workload has become oppressive. Different IETF-Chairs have different approaches. Adapting to these changes, IMHO, has been challenging for IESG members. But the long-term trend has been to make it entirely too difficult to say no to any new-group proposal. A pair of WG-chairs is appointed, and the AD's don't have time to follow the actual process. Some WGCs listen very carefully to AD advice; others don't. Some ADs give very good advice early; others don't. But there's an endemic problem: enough of the hoi-polloi see each WG as the only possible way to "solve" their problem; and they develop tunnel vision. Thus anyone other than the AD who points out a problem is facing a cliff-like wall of resistance. This leads to problems entombed in published RFCs. It is rare for these problems to be solved -- ever. Beating your head against these entombed problems _seriously_ reduces the enthusiasm of ordinary IETF-ers to devote full-time to our process. :^( :^( :^( (Having basically retired from my full-time job, I have perhaps enough time available to work on this, but nowhere near enough money to cover $50,000 per year of out-of pocket expenses.) (Also, I hate air travel!) But perhaps, somebody else will explore alternatives to selecting only employer-sponsored folks for the IESG... -- John Leslie From nobody Fri Nov 8 11:23:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A694120C81 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 11:23:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IYE2n1gNjUS5 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 11:23:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x536.google.com (mail-pg1-x536.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::536]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 394E4120C80 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 11:22:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x536.google.com with SMTP id w11so4541039pga.12 for ; Fri, 08 Nov 2019 11:22:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Oe6gOICogetGvyxNe1hXrXF+nfWKCi/BTrvk+I8ReqU=; b=RE73BA2yShGIIlFXoynGR4LvH7N356eF/9es9XMHvGLp2+xxCMO5DuTSaDumuJIEe4 R+s50h+IGvIeh8S8EqVKuGREFKOAcsFe2gL4c085NVV9GIgVFJHuYMHmc1uvB/ky5ick bq73dqh2utWEjs47OZQc0SQ0z2VuKYPJY1vwVHnNhcW1CxtOoMRtO0N/gBvIVG/l4nrP /lz7yZ2LCa0sSW68WKbc5kYNKIpD/y1k6c4ks+pBp89mx7MprXsMRgVVWPlbbPHEdsAw 4h+TzK4HRUMdjGse3MFJlcqhPIIEKMCvXocV4tu78oUcKC5/dRHLk9KJQbwciqFBlNxm 38Zw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Oe6gOICogetGvyxNe1hXrXF+nfWKCi/BTrvk+I8ReqU=; b=Bb2C4jfUX3oVxLkZWOFhCoBnWMajGMJxfIauTgonCxXqHEzDt/J5hCompvDScQ3KJe 3rcpJ2P9IkR7pKutPDsXaD0n7m4IOaPPRzs0Qo1qPWgmZwUqdPA3XOQZScmIVmOHTR5j 4VrblFNwZrvNHu05NqLDiZu0ZIlIH4bnsDR60SyK1qdtBW8tK0tT3N2ZLLRYXQ8eLlMI X1HrMHVb6lo1POHlTUPg3YS5vE25DiGcZIN2bUDjhBY+dKyV8l/mvlavIRafXBGnvqyO oSMd2WsdrNWyj3+i1wqMGRrHPGSQoTkugx5pVfybndF8p55Ni4zcyndf/HLWj5PstCMW Dmfg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU9k/eBe1cgoSxBRaG1HXH0EymbTywuwbYW11xMU7ElLTnYI/Zh qiLRkKgRz87dS/WO6uQUzoMPdGaA X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw1xZqwIQBrfoDHsG7xZ+68sAGFKk3j1+Ep6BHxVzoCAgWTGZ9NkdJHLNjR+ilpR+5FVtUQ6A== X-Received: by 2002:a62:830a:: with SMTP id h10mr14401282pfe.6.1573240969399; Fri, 08 Nov 2019 11:22:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (8.166.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.166.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c12sm7305184pfp.178.2019.11.08.11.22.47 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 08 Nov 2019 11:22:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback] To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <0053C5D9-E4D7-4BE0-9B73-3B7FC25561FB@akamai.com> <20191105092422.GA61969@kduck.mit.edu> <7740e21f-83b1-ef83-965a-c599a0746ae3@network-heretics.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <70ce65fb-6856-4c6e-7730-1bccaa842c05@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 08:22:46 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7740e21f-83b1-ef83-965a-c599a0746ae3@network-heretics.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 19:23:20 -0000 On 09-Nov-19 05:25, Keith Moore wrote: ... > I see no substitute for a community-wide review. On 08-Nov-19 22:49, Ole Troan wrote: > I have for a long time been uncomfortable with the level of document changes that happens after the document leaves the working group. ... > Basically I want the IESG for leadership. I want the IESG for quality control. I do not want the IESG to have to read every document, nitpick or even (gasp) override working group consensus. > > Executive summary: More leadership less document editing. Violent agreement with all of the above. And again - this is all procedural, no change to IETF rules is needed. I begin to realise that the IESG's workload is in its own hands, and we (all of us who've served in the IESG over the last 20 years) have to share the blame for current practice. Brian From nobody Fri Nov 8 11:34:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66EC3120C89 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 11:34:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l2kvvk8qyLpr for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 11:34:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2F19120C86 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 11:34:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1746F210B8; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 14:34:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 08 Nov 2019 14:34:11 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=NPYpDiAa/4g6/oaLfny89i/foaKDQRpFk0pM+Qf1M ao=; b=UrfCWyzES/B00GikKnm3TgUhTxtsr1K+GzWGF/MiXl2RFhKQDYL6XT92I 6+qkkuZKgzc7+gdLTuG2xdDriQg21Pz8YXCEoFjNgUDlI1fQaly69YQRimp2tzb4 VYQdiBin4tXwV7ixDyx7lJ7IDeOOoa9SIrvdSLivV8kW4xMJ6EOJyawEyV/6as3u WkIO4d2waAS0xtgqcUHbvr2Uimvj/tNWu7K5EFVw6GvzduuJsf8raHqCBqWbPBcx IsGNpLuHCeut3UqQcLHwW0qgFknBjcgyQLR+wJ9Vcx9mTOPhDv3WLzo/8B5J7AWu O03qijKdhdGLNGO2K49OCSYBn3YBA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedruddvuddguddvkecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesth ejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvght fihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecukfhppedutdekrddvvddurddukedtrd duheenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgv rhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 480E280059; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 14:34:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback] To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <0053C5D9-E4D7-4BE0-9B73-3B7FC25561FB@akamai.com> <20191105092422.GA61969@kduck.mit.edu> <7740e21f-83b1-ef83-965a-c599a0746ae3@network-heretics.com> <70ce65fb-6856-4c6e-7730-1bccaa842c05@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <183c2ca1-aa5e-6aa8-5f7f-bf99967518ee@network-heretics.com> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 14:34:09 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <70ce65fb-6856-4c6e-7730-1bccaa842c05@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 19:34:13 -0000 On 11/8/19 2:22 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > And again - this is all procedural, no change to IETF rules is needed. I begin to realise that the IESG's workload is in its own hands, and we (all of us who've served in the IESG over the last 20 years) have to share the blame for current practice. Something I realized long ago is that IETF community expectations are at least as influential as the rules, probably moreso. As long as the community expects that any working group that has support will be approved, that working groups can stay alive as long as they keep producing documents, and that any document that a working group produces should be approved, the workload problems will continue no matter how IESG manages its own process. And every time someone points out that IESG is overloaded, most of the proposed "solutions" seem to have the intent, or at least effect, of further reducing document quality. Maybe it's just me, but I keep thinking that the best way for IETF to serve the Internet is to produce fewer documents of higher quality and greater relevance. Keith From nobody Fri Nov 8 13:06:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 848B81200EF; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 17:12:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_SUMOF=5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z61JBh0yAYdy; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 17:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69BAC120106; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 17:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id xA10BsbU026582 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:11:56 -0400 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 17:11:53 -0700 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Barry Leiba Cc: victor.demjanenko@vocal.com, "Roni Even (A)" , The IESG , Catherine Meadows , IETF SecDir , draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis@ietf.org, Ali Begen , avtcore-chairs@ietf.org, avt@ietf.org, "Dave Satterlee (Vocal)" , IETF discussion list , draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis.all@ietf.org Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Message-ID: <20191101001153.GQ88302@kduck.mit.edu> References: <157007038502.8860.1558861534319247512.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <001601d57af9$405efcf0$c11cf6d0$@vocal.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD23D79BC0@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <034a01d58a73$f4d3a1c0$de7ae540$@vocal.com> <037e01d58a92$72287510$56795f30$@vocal.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 13:06:23 -0800 X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 00:12:16 -0000 I don't think so, unfortunately. I do see the clarification about CODB's potential for deviation from Table 1, that only the 600 bps MELPe is allowed to deviate, and that CODA gets us to "it's one of 2400 or 600 bps" and the RTP timestamp disambiguates that 600 bps is in use. But, it seems that this means that the recipient in general should not rely on CODB to differentiate 600 from 2400 bps, and instead is more robustly implemented by *always* using the RTP timestamp to detect 600 bps, since that will always work and CODB will sometimes not work under conditions not fully specified here. So, if we are unwilling or unable to clarify what those conditions are (e.g., whether at a minimum mutual agreement is required), then I think we need to describe this procedure of consulting the RTP timestamp as the default behavior and avoid giving the impression that CODB should be used to do so. Additionally, I don't see anything to address my concern about TSVCIS parameter decoding. To be clear, the procedure I see this document describing is that: - TSVCIS gives parameters (and their lengths in bits) to the codec described in this document - this document specifies how to densely encode those parameters into a byetstream - RTP transmits that encoded bytestream to the peer - the codec specified by this is responsible for turning that encoded bystream back into a list of TSVCIS parameters (and their length in bits) I don't see how that last step is attainable with only the information provided by this document. I *assume* that one of the TSVCIS specifications has a canonical (ordered) listing of parameters, and that the list of parmeters given to this codec in the first step will always be an initial prefix of that list, but that's just me guessing at how to make sense of the stated procedure given insufficient information. I don't think it's appropriate to make the reader of an RFC guess at what to do; we need to either say how to do it or give a pointer to an external reference that does. -Ben On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 02:26:09PM -0400, Barry Leiba wrote: > Ben, does the -04 version address everything? >=20 > Barry >=20 > On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 1:42 PM wrote: > > > > I forgot to address security comments in one email. The changes are: > > > > Section 8, second paragraph - Suggested edit by reviewer > > > > (was) > > This RTP payload format and the TSVCIS decoder do not exhibit any > > significant non-uniformity in the receiver-side computational > > complexity for packet processing and thus are unlikely to pose a > > denial-of-service threat due to the receipt of pathological data. > > Additionally, the RTP payload format does not contain any active > > content. > > > > (now) > > This RTP payload format and the TSVCIS decoder, to the best of our > > knowledge, do not exhibit any significant non-uniformity in the > > receiver-side computational complexity for packet processing and thus > > are unlikely to pose a denial-of-service threat due to the receipt of > > pathological data. Additionally, the RTP payload format does not > > contain any active content. > > > > > > Section 8, third paragraph - Suggested edit by reviewer > > > > (was) > > Please see the security considerations discussed in [RFC6562] > > regarding VAD and its effect on bitrates. > > > > (now) > > Please see the security considerations discussed in [RFC6562] > > regarding Voice Activity Detect (VAD) and its effect on bitrates. > > > > Victor > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: victor.demjanenko@vocal.com > > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2019 10:05 AM > > To: 'Roni Even (A)' ; 'Benjamin Kaduk' ; 'The IESG' > > Cc: draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis@ietf.org; 'Ali Begen' ; avtcore-chairs@ietf.org; avt@ietf.org; 'Dave Satterlee (Vocal)' <= Dave.Satterlee@vocal.com> > > Subject: RE: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: = (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > First we want to thank everyone for their review and comments for this = draft RFC. We believe we reviewed all the comments and suggestions and inc= orporated them adequately in the next draft (04). We'd like to send out th= is list of exact changes in case anyone has additional comments or thinks t= he clarifications are inadequate. We would be most happy to address concer= ns before publishing draft 04 tomorrow. > > > > With so many emails from a half dozen or more reviewers, we apologize t= hat we cannot address each sender individually. We hope this detail is suf= ficient for everyone. > > > > Again, many thanks to all. > > > > Victor & Dave > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------------- > > > > Section 1.1 - Suggested reference to RFC 8088 added. > > > > (was) > > Best current practices for writing an RTP payload format > > specification were followed [RFC2736]. > > > > (now) > > Best current practices for writing an RTP payload format > > specification were followed [RFC2736] [RFC8088]. > > > > > > Section 2, paragraphs 3 and 4 - Suggested edits by reviewers > > > > (was) > > In addition to the augmented speech data, the TSVCIS specification > > identifies which speech coder and framing bits are to be encrypted, > > and how they are protected by forward error correction (FEC) > > techniques (using block codes). At the RTP transport layer, only the > > speech coder related bits need to be considered and are conveyed in > > unencrypted form. In most IP-based network deployments, standard > > link encryption methods (SRTP, VPNs, FIPS 140 link encryptors or Type > > 1 Ethernet encryptors) would be used to secure the RTP speech > > contents. Further, it is desirable to support the highest voice > > quality between endpoints which is only possible without the overhead > > of FEC. > > > > TSVCIS augmented speech data is derived from the signal processing > > and data already performed by the MELPe speech coder. For the > > purposes of this specification, only the general parameter nature of > > TSVCIS will be characterized. Depending on the bandwidth available > > (and FEC requirements), a varying number of TSVCIS specific speech > > coder parameters need to be transported. These are first byte-packed > > and then conveyed from encoder to decoder. > > > > (now) > > In addition to the augmented speech data, the TSVCIS specification > > identifies which speech coder and framing bits are to be encrypted, > > and how they are protected by forward error correction (FEC) > > techniques (using block codes). At the RTP transport layer, only the > > speech-coder-related bits need to be considered and are conveyed in > > unencrypted form. In most IP-based network deployments, standard > > link encryption methods (SRTP, VPNs, FIPS 140 link encryptors or Type > > 1 Ethernet encryptors) would be used to secure the RTP speech > > contents. > > > > TSVCIS augmented speech data is derived from the signal processing > > and data already performed by the MELPe speech coder. For the > > purposes of this specification, only the general parameter nature of > > TSVCIS will be characterized. Depending on the bandwidth available > > (and FEC requirements), a varying number of TSVCIS-specific speech > > coder parameters need to be transported. These are first byte-packed > > and then conveyed from encoder to decoder. > > > > > > Section 3, last sentence paragraph 3 - Suggested edit by reviewer > > > > (was) > > When more than one codec data frame is > > present in a single RTP packet, the timestamp is, as always, that of > > the oldest data frame represented in the RTP packet. > > > > (now) > > When more than one codec data frame is > > present in a single RTP packet, the timestamp specified is that of > > the oldest data frame represented in the RTP packet. > > > > > > Section 3.1, last paragraph - Clarified permission for MELP 600 end-to-= end framing bit > > > > (was) > > It should be noted that CODB for both the 2400 and 600 bps modes MAY > > deviate from the values in Table 1 when bit 55 is used as an end-to- > > end framing bit. Frame decoding would remain distinct as CODA being > > zero on its own would indicate a 7-byte frame for either rate and the > > use of 600 bps speech coding could be deduced from the RTP timestamp > > (and anticipated by the SDP negotiations). > > > > (now) > > It should be noted that CODB for MELPe 600 bps mode MAY deviate from > > the value in Table 1 when bit 55 is used as an end-to-end framing > > bit. Frame decoding would remain distinct as CODA being zero on its > > own would indicate a 7-byte frame for either 2400 or 600 bps rate and > > the use of 600 bps speech coding could be deduced from the RTP > > timestamp (and anticipated by the SDP negotiations). > > > > > > Section 3.2, first paragraph - Clarifications requested by reviewers > > > > (was) > > The TSVCIS augmented speech data as packed parameters MUST be placed > > immediately after a corresponding MELPe 2400 bps payload in the same > > RTP packet. The packed parameters are counted in octets (TC). In > > the preferred placement, shown in Figure 6, a single trailing octet > > SHALL be appended to include a two-bit rate code, CODA and CODB, > > (both bits set to one) and a six-bit modified count (MTC). The > > special modified count value of all ones (representing a MTC value of > > 63) SHALL NOT be used for this format as it is used as the indicator > > for the alternate packing format shown next. In a standard > > implementation, the TSVCIS speech coder uses a minimum of 15 octets > > for parameters in octet packed form. The modified count (MTC) MUST > > be reduced by 15 from the full octet count (TC). Computed MTC =3D T= C- > > 15. This accommodates a maximum of 77 parameter octets (maximum > > value of MTC is 62, 77 is the sum of 62+15). > > > > (now) > > The TSVCIS augmented speech data as packed parameters MUST be placed > > immediately after a corresponding MELPe 2400 bps payload in the same > > RTP packet. The packed parameters are counted in octets (TC). The > > preferred placement SHOULD be used for TSVCIS payloads with TC less > > than or equal to 77 octets, is shown in Figure 6. In the preferred > > placement, a single trailing octet SHALL be appended to include a > > two-bit rate code, CODA and CODB, (both bits set to one) and a six- > > bit modified count (MTC). The special modified count value of all > > ones (representing a MTC value of 63) SHALL NOT be used for this > > format as it is used as the indicator for the alternate packing > > format shown next. In a standard implementation, the TSVCIS speech > > coder uses a minimum of 15 octets for parameters in octet packed > > form. The modified count (MTC) MUST be reduced by 15 from the full > > octet count (TC). Computed MTC =3D TC-15. This accommodates a maxi= mum > > of 77 parameter octets (maximum value of MTC is 62, 77 is the sum of > > 62+15). > > > > > > Section 3.3, first paragraph - Suggested edit by reviewer > > > > (was) > > A TSVCIS RTP packet consists of zero or more TSVCIS coder frames > > (each consisting of MELPe and TSVCIS coder data) followed by zero or > > one MELPe comfort noise frame. The presence of a comfort noise frame > > can be determined by its rate code bits in its last octet. > > > > (now) > > A TSVCIS RTP packet payload consists of zero or more consecutive > > TSVCIS coder frames (each consisting of MELPe 2400 and TSVCIS coder > > data), with the oldest frame first, followed by zero or one MELPe > > comfort noise frame. The presence of a comfort noise frame can be > > determined by its rate code bits in its last octet. > > > > > > Section 3.3, fourth paragraph - Clarification requested by reviewers > > > > (was) > > TSVCIS coder frames in a single RTP packet MAY be of different coder > > bitrates. With the exception for the variable length TSVCIS > > parameter frames, the coder rate bits in the trailing byte identify > > the contents and length as per Table 1. > > > > (now) > > TSVCIS coder frames in a single RTP packet MAY have varying TSVCIS > > parameter octet counts. Its packed parameter octet count (length) is > > indicated in the trailing byte(s). All MELPe frames in a single RTP > > packet MUST be of the same coder bitrate. For all MELPe coder > > frames, the coder rate bits in the trailing byte identify the > > contents and length as per Table 1. > > > > > > Section 4.1 - Editor note removed > > > > > > Section 4.1 - Change controller is now > > > > (now) > > Change controller: IETF, contact > > > > > > Section 5, first paragraph - Suggested edits by reviewers > > > > (was) > > A primary application of TSVCIS is for radio communications of voice > > conversations, and discontinuous transmissions are normal. When > > TSVCIS is used in an IP network, TSVCIS RTP packet transmissions may > > cease and resume frequently. RTP synchronization source (SSRC) > > sequence number gaps indicate lost packets to be filled by PLC, while > > abrupt loss of RTP packets indicates intended discontinuous > > transmissions. > > > > (now) > > A primary application of TSVCIS is for radio communications of voice > > conversations, and discontinuous transmissions are normal. When > > TSVCIS is used in an IP network, TSVCIS RTP packet transmissions may > > cease and resume frequently. RTP synchronization source (SSRC) > > sequence number gaps indicate lost packets to be filled by Packet > > Loss Concealment (PLC), while abrupt loss of RTP packets indicates > > intended discontinuous transmissions. Resumption of voice > > transmission SHOULD be indicated by the RTP marker bit (M) set to 1. > > > > > > Section 10 - Added reference > > > > (added) > > [RFC8088] Westerlund, M., "How to Write an RTP Payload Format", > > RFC 8088, DOI 10.17487/RFC8088, May 2017, > > . > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------- > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Roni Even (A) > > Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2019 2:09 AM > > To: victor.demjanenko@vocal.com; 'Benjamin Kaduk' ; 'The= IESG' > > Cc: draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis@ietf.org; 'Ali Begen' ; avtcore-chairs@ietf.org; avt@ietf.org; 'Dave Satterlee (Vocal)' <= Dave.Satterlee@vocal.com> > > Subject: RE: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: = (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > Hi, > > About the reference to TSVCIS. > > The RTP payload is about how to encapsulate the payload in an RTP packe= t. The objective is to define how an RTP stack can insert the tsvcis frames= and extract the tsvcis frames from the RTP packet. Typically it is not re= quired to understand the payload structure in order to be able to perform t= he encapsulation. > > This is why the reference to the payload is Informational and we did no= t require to have it publically available. If there is a need to understan= d the payload itself for the encapsulating than we need more information in= the RTP payload specification and a publically available normative referen= ce. I think this is not the case here > > > > Roni Even > > > > AVTCore co-chair (ex Payload) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: victor.demjanenko@vocal.com [mailto:victor.demjanenko@vocal.com] > > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2019 12:18 AM > > To: 'Benjamin Kaduk'; 'The IESG' > > Cc: draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis@ietf.org; 'Ali Begen'; avtcore-chairs@iet= f.org; avt@ietf.org; 'Victor Demjanenko, Ph.D.'; 'Dave Satterlee (Vocal)' > > Subject: RE: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: = (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > Everyone, > > > > Thanks for the comments. I think I mis-understood the ambiguity with r= espect to to changing rates within a RTP packet. That was not plan. An RT= P packet must have MELP speech frames of the same rate. What is possible i= s that the amount of augmented TSVCIS speech data may vary from one speech = frame to the next. This allows for a dynamic VDR as suggested by the NRL p= aper. So an RTP packet may have varying TSVCIS data but must always have M= ELPe 2400 data. > > > > Again backwards parsing is necessary but the timestamp uniformly increm= ents 22.5msec per combined MELP/TSVCIS speech frame. > > > > The NRL is a good public reference on the VDR aspects. The actual TSVC= IS spec we had was FOUO so we could not replicate its detail. (I believe a= later spec is public or at least partially public. I am trying to get thi= s.) The opaque data is pretty obvious with the TSVCIS spec in hand. > > > > We will address the issues/concerns raised next week. Other business h= ad priority. > > > > Thank you and enjoy the weekend. > > > > Regards, > > > > Victor & Dave > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker > > Sent: Wednesday, October 2, 2019 10:40 PM > > To: The IESG > > Cc: draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis@ietf.org; Ali Begen ; avtcore-chairs@ietf.org; ali.begen@networked.media; avt@ietf.org > > Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: (wit= h DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > > draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: Discuss > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all e= mail addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this intr= oductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.ht= ml > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis/ > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > DISCUSS: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > I support Magnus' point about the time-ordering of adjacent frames in a= packet. > > > > Additionally, I am not sure that there's quite enough here to be intero= perably implementable. Specifically, we seem to be lacking a description o= f how an encoder or decoder knows which TSVCIS parameters, and in what orde= r, to byte-pack or unpack, respectively. One might surmise that there is a= canonical listing in [TSVCIS], but this document does not say that, and fu= rthermore [TSVCIS] is only listed as an informative reference. (I couldn't= get my hands on my copy, at least on short notice.) If we limited ourselv= es to treating the TSVCIS parameters as an entirely opaque blob (codec, con= vey these N octets to the peer with the appropriate one- or two-byte traile= r for payload type identification and framing), that would be interoperably= implementable, since the black-box bits are up to some other codec to inte= rpret. > > > > In a similar vein, we mention but do not completely specify the potenti= al for using CODB as an end-to-end framing bit, in Section 3.1 (see Comment= ), which is not interoperably implementable without further details. > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > COMMENT: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Where is [TSVCIS] available? > > > > Is [NRLVDR] the same as > > https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a588068.pdf ? A URL in the r= eferences would be helpful. > > > > Is additional TSVCIS data only present after 2400bps MELPe and the firs= t thing to get dropped under bandwidth pressure? The abstract and introduc= tion imply this by calling out MELPe 2400 bps speech parameters explicitly,= but Section 3 says that TSVCIS augments standard 600, 1200, and 2400 bps M= ELP frames. > > > > It's helpful that Section 3.3 gives some general guidance for decoding = this payload type ("[t]he way to determine the number of TSVCIS/MELPe frame= s is to identify each frame type and length"), but I think some generic con= siderations would be very helpful to the reader much earlier, along the lin= es of "MELPe and TSVCIS data payloads are decoded from the end, using the C= ODA and CODB (and, if necessary, CODC and others) bits to determine the typ= e of payload. For MELPe payloads the type also indicates the payload lengt= h, whereas for TSVCIS data an additional length field is present, in one of= two possible formats. A TSVCIS coder frame consists of a MELPe data paylo= ad followed by zero or one TSVCIS data payload; after the TSVCIS payload's = presence/length is determined, then the preceding MELPe payload can be dete= rmined and decoded. Per Section 3.3, multiple TSVCIS frames can be present= in a single RTP packet." This (or something like it) would also serve to = clarify the role of the COD* bits, which is otherwise only implicitly intro= duced. > > > > Section 1.1 > > > > RFC 2736 is BCP 36 (but it's updated by RFC 8088 which is for some reas= on an Informational document and not part of BCP 36?!). > > > > Section 2 > > > > In addition to the augmented speech data, the TSVCIS specification > > identifies which speech coder and framing bits are to be encrypted, > > and how they are protected by forward error correction (FEC) > > techniques (using block codes). At the RTP transport layer, only the > > speech coder related bits need to be considered and are conveyed in > > unencrypted form. In most IP-based network deployments, standard > > > > Am I reading this correctly that this text is just summarizing what's i= n the TSVCIS spec in terms of what needs to be in unencrypted form, so the = "only the speech coder related bits[...]" is not new information from this = document? I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion, regardless -- won't th= e (MELPe) speech coder bits be enough to convey the semantic content of the= audio stream, something that one might desire to keep confidential? > > > > link encryption methods (SRTP, VPNs, FIPS 140 link encryptors or Type > > 1 Ethernet encryptors) would be used to secure the RTP speech > > contents. Further, it is desirable to support the highest voice > > quality between endpoints which is only possible without the overhead > > of FEC. > > > > I think I'm missing a step in how this conclusion was reached. > > > > TSVCIS will be characterized. Depending on the bandwidth available > > (and FEC requirements), a varying number of TSVCIS specific speech > > coder parameters need to be transported. These are first byte-packed > > and then conveyed from encoder to decoder. > > > > Per the Discuss point, how do I know which parameters need to be transp= orted, and in what order? > > > > Byte packing of TSVCIS speech data into packed parameters is > > processed as per the following example: > > > > Three-bit field: bits A, B, and C (A is MSB, C is LSB) > > Five-bit field: bits D, E, F, G, and H (D is MSB, H is LSB) > > > > MSB LSB > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 > > +------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+ > > | H | G | F | E | D | C | B | A | > > +------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+ > > > > This packing method places the three-bit field "first" in the lowest > > bits followed by the next five-bit field. Parameters may be split > > between octets with the most significant bits in the earlier octet. > > Any unfilled bits in the last octet MUST be filled with zero. > > > > I agree with Adam that this is very unclear. A is the MSB of the three= -bit field but the LSB of the octet overall? > > We probably need an example of splitting a parameter across octets as w= ell, to get the bit ordering right. > > > > Section 3.1 > > > > It should be noted that CODB for both the 2400 and 600 bps modes MAY > > deviate from the values in Table 1 when bit 55 is used as an end-to- > > end framing bit. Frame decoding would remain distinct as CODA being > > > > Where is the use of CODB as an end-to-end framing bit defined? If we'r= e going to provide neither a complete description of how to do it nor a ref= erence to a better description, we probably shouldn't mention it at all. > > > > Section 3.2 > > > > RTP packet. The packed parameters are counted in octets (TC). In > > the preferred placement, shown in Figure 6, a single trailing octet > > SHALL be appended to include a two-bit rate code, CODA and CODB, > > > > I'd consider saying something about this being the preferred format > > ("placement") due to its shorter length than the alternative, and say t= hat it "SHOULD be used for TSVCIS payloads with TC less than or equal to 77= octetes". > > > > Section 3.3 > > > > When a longer packetization interval is used, is that indicated by sign= aling or RTP timestamps or otherwise? > > > > TSVCIS coder frames in a single RTP packet MAY be of different coder > > bitrates. With the exception for the variable length TSVCIS > > parameter frames, the coder rate bits in the trailing byte identify > > the contents and length as per Table 1. > > > > Maybe also note that the penultimate octet gives the length there? > > > > Information describing the number of frames contained in an RTP > > packet is not transmitted as part of the RTP payload. The way to > > determine the number of TSVCIS/MELPe frames is to identify each frame > > type and length thereby counting the total number of octets within > > the RTP packet. > > > > terminology nit: if a frame is the combination of MELPe and TSVCIS payl= oad data units then there are two layres of decoding to get a length for th= e frame, since we have to get the TSVCIS length and then the MELPe length. > > > > Section 4.2 > > > > Parameter "ptime" cannot be used for the purpose of specifying the > > > > nit: missing article ("The parameter") > > > > will be impossible to distinguish which mode is about to be used > > (e.g., when ptime=3D68, it would be impossible to distinguish if the > > packet is carrying one frame of 67.5 ms or three frames of 22.5 ms). > > > > So how is the operating mode determined, then? > > (I think this is the same question I asked above) > > > > Section 4.4 > > > > For example, if offerer bitrates are "2400,600" and answer bitrates > > are "600,2400", the initial bitrate is 600. If other bitrates are > > provided by the answerer, any common bitrate between the offer and > > answer MAY be used at any time in the future. Activation of these > > other common bitrates is beyond the scope of this document. > > > > It seems important to specify whether this requires a new O/A exchange = or can be done "spontaneously" by just encoding different frame types. > > (It seems like the latter is possible, on first glance, and this is imp= lied by Section 3.3's discussion of mixing them in a single packet.) > > > > Section 5 > > > > Please expand PLC at first use (not second). > > > > Section 6 > > > > I don't understand the PLC usage. Is the idea that a receiver, on seei= ng an SSRC gap, constructs fictitious PLC frames to "fill the gap" > > and passes the resulting stream to the decoder? > > > > Section 8 > > > > and important considerations in [RFC7201]. Applications SHOULD use > > one or more appropriate strong security mechanisms. The rest of this > > section discusses the security-impacting properties of the payload > > format itself. > > > > I thought we described TSVCIS itself (much earlier in the document) as = requiring encryption for some data; wouldn't that translate to a "MUST" > > here and not a "SHOULD"? > > > > > > From nobody Fri Nov 8 13:25:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 493E1120025; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 13:25:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: NomCom Chair 2019 To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Reminder - Community Feedback Requested! X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.110.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org Message-ID: <157324830823.23460.1858331062784000330.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 13:25:08 -0800 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 21:25:08 -0000 Reminder - Community Feedback Requested! Feedback for IAB, IESG Area Directors, IETF Trust and LLC Board. The 2019-20 Nominating Committee has collected a list of willing candidates for the positions open this cycle. You can see the list at https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2019/feedback/ You may provide feedback using the web form there; it is secure. All web feedback goes into the datatracker using asymmetric encryption, which is then decrypted by the NomCom members as they read it. Your feedback can not be seen by the secretariat, the tools people, or any of the management. Your feedback through the web form is not anonymous when shown to NomCom members as you need an IETF login to provide it. If you want to give truly anonymous feedback, please contact one of the NomCom members that you trust directly, and ask him/her to relay the feedback anonymously to the NomCom. You can also submit feedback via email to nomcom-chair-2019 at ietf.org and I will enter it in the datatracker. One email per candidate, please. Please indicate if I should share your identity with the full NomCom. Office Hours for Singapore are posted on the NomCom 2019 site. For reference the office hours are: November 18 - 21 (local Singapore timezone - SGT) Monday 18th - 09:00 - 10:00 Tuesday 19th - 09:00 - 10:00 Wednesday 20th - 09:00 - 10:00 Thursday 21st - 09:00 - 10:00 Private appointment can be made based upon request The positions to be filled and the desired expertise are also found on our NomCom 19 web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2019/ Thank you so much for your feedback - we really value it and appreciate your time taken to submit it. regards, Victor Victor Kuarsingh victor at jvknet dot com nomcom-chair-2019 at ietf dot org From nobody Fri Nov 8 13:30:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B47DE1200E0 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 13:30:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.435 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L6SmD2QVj3ou for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 13:30:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75D33120025 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 13:30:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [142.169.78.6]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 960E51F452 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 21:30:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 473351237; Fri, 8 Nov 2019 16:30:23 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback] In-reply-to: <183c2ca1-aa5e-6aa8-5f7f-bf99967518ee@network-heretics.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <0053C5D9-E4D7-4BE0-9B73-3B7FC25561FB@akamai.com> <20191105092422.GA61969@kduck.mit.edu> <7740e21f-83b1-ef83-965a-c599a0746ae3@network-heretics.com> <70ce65fb-6856-4c6e-7730-1bccaa842c05@gmail.com> <183c2ca1-aa5e-6aa8-5f7f-bf99967518ee@network-heretics.com> Comments: In-reply-to Keith Moore message dated "Fri, 08 Nov 2019 14:34:09 -0500." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 16:30:23 -0500 Message-ID: <23353.1573248623@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 21:30:28 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Keith Moore wrote: >> And again - this is all procedural, no change to IETF rules is >> needed. I begin to realise that the IESG's workload is in its own >> hands, and we (all of us who've served in the IESG over the last 20 >> years) have to share the blame for current practice. > Something I realized long ago is that IETF community expectations are > at least as influential as the rules, probably moreso. > As long as the community expects that any working group that has > support will be approved, that working groups can stay alive as long = as > they keep producing documents, and that any document that a working I'd really like them to stay alive while not producing (new) documents. So I feel that groups sometimes are eager to recharter because that is the only way to stay alive. I'd like to change that. > And every time someone points out that IESG is overloaded, most of the > proposed "solutions" seem to have the intent, or at least effect, of > further reducing document quality. But, the bar is already very very high. > Maybe it's just me, but I keep thinking that the best way for IETF to > serve the Internet is to produce fewer documents of higher quality and > greater relevance. Fewer RFCs, I agree. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl3F3m4ACgkQlUzhVv38 QpCoZAgAng5Cei1n/LMqrWMQlLFDr3frmk869hEA5r2z9cvNLqZurgGX+tP1fJ5b tnH9/ernOJhZkIbAOPfk8MA5NS7d056a6VX/lGQ4rFoT2U9Q62Okcgu6nHluOtqD QATyxgM7RVY39X6b937rLrSJ8MW9RrbNMxXYuhOJ0mZKQJpBjWW6WMatb/nmWnnX fABpKBW6kUN/BssDEpE5hVgvNpMuI9TrIBKK/tc2cTipFutq9XMSStYS9wlxY1Lv TvFdFAleDOePzjnXMUxAG7TnMmHj8F+KKdf68WN5m6SH8HRo4JypuejYBRoqRyve PLcFX0StksEJlK21sllO9im9YWboCQ== =YkuW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Nov 8 13:40:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFDC3120805 for ; 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Fri, 8 Nov 2019 16:40:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback] To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <0053C5D9-E4D7-4BE0-9B73-3B7FC25561FB@akamai.com> <20191105092422.GA61969@kduck.mit.edu> <7740e21f-83b1-ef83-965a-c599a0746ae3@network-heretics.com> <70ce65fb-6856-4c6e-7730-1bccaa842c05@gmail.com> <183c2ca1-aa5e-6aa8-5f7f-bf99967518ee@network-heretics.com> <23353.1573248623@dooku.sandelman.ca> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <7dc1e194-c2a3-5638-6d5c-d2209dff091f@network-heretics.com> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 16:40:02 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <23353.1573248623@dooku.sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 21:40:10 -0000 On 11/8/19 4:30 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > As long as the community expects that any working group that has > > support will be approved, that working groups can stay alive as long as > > they keep producing documents, and that any document that a working > > I'd really like them to stay alive while not producing (new) documents. > So I feel that groups sometimes are eager to recharter because that is the > only way to stay alive. I'd like to change that.I As far as I can tell, what makes people want to continue to participate in a working group is (usually) that they're working on new documents. I don't think it should be a hard-and-fast rule, but I think that any group that tries to stay around long after its initial goals have been completed, should be regarded with extra scrutiny. But I wouldn't object to having WG charters include interoperability testing as explicit milestones. The goal of IETF should not be to produce as many documents as possible, it should be to produce the documents that the Internet needs most and that the IETF can best provide. Perpetual WGs usually do not serve that goal, IMO.   Again, there are sometimes exceptions. > > And every time someone points out that IESG is overloaded, most of the > > proposed "solutions" seem to have the intent, or at least effect, of > > further reducing document quality. > > But, the bar is already very very high. Maybe the bar is not high in the best ways.    IMO the "bar" should be about document quality and relevance, more than about the willingness to work past the point of exhaustion. Keith From nobody Sat Nov 9 02:49:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3C4B120851 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2019 02:49:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=redhoundsoftware.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kce_2D_dafm4 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2019 02:49:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb1-xb32.google.com (mail-yb1-xb32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7D41120086 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2019 02:49:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-xb32.google.com with SMTP id h23so1062239ybg.2 for ; Sat, 09 Nov 2019 02:49:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=redhoundsoftware.com; s=google; h=user-agent:date:subject:from:to:message-id:thread-topic :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3WxnjSmESfcDJjqh83SPcpJxnZsK+jNmy/woDJkAwPM=; b=ib+ga3ekUVdL5vylz1wAsrale0TbxI4AmRj7YQEr70AuAKOydUCXl7yB2nCzW6KNSf 0eLXWDCOrfOT/FsHesL93vBijHG8f87Np63z02u3UYW10V3uAv4JI5ZH3kMOQstfY0sz S67w+He3T6QXvvjYy/Y4bxu++9nRgm0w2vnGI= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:user-agent:date:subject:from:to:message-id :thread-topic:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3WxnjSmESfcDJjqh83SPcpJxnZsK+jNmy/woDJkAwPM=; b=TBdNUyrWDKxykAcqwkWNGkmnwik0wRbgiNjQpZyf/hKkZKuS+Hr0ilkPJSlts8F61T 6rhKE+jXe7GZQ0e3L9Gp46NM6GlAiPXESDTFhc3etNZc9ifqE+ODl8r2REvyqcX8KJ5S z7EYJjQflBf3JZclHaBkfoP9Rx6LNOjcNclN7V9a5SWDRBJzTBZv9a704fZGcW/21U97 Asphc2l3p+UKDjlhN2Dh+iHePOje67VN4KAHJMwqWSwkJO5NBi79jQKQ5FhVIuWH3Ttc NcmahoAmXwKt4gLpATe3uly4oQerloFUAot4ZZkdbr7+ZUjlxDJW/Y5Fue7LdUiWBxBn SCLg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWEDh3yL0RmtXVeXvRR806OR1uFelOqxzDQb2EAXlB9jZ5KaXA1 HhoP1OPQUUSxcgCrnVB71LP+CA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw938lo4Hddy8XsZR1xlL8hj11T3IcDcXxae9gx37yLdwgZL/2SkwB1+sdKI5ogWLoY6QRXgw== X-Received: by 2002:a25:4057:: with SMTP id n84mr12290218yba.435.1573296574825; Sat, 09 Nov 2019 02:49:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.130.0.123] (rrcs-98-101-204-34.midsouth.biz.rr.com. [98.101.204.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p126sm2502296ywc.16.2019.11.09.02.49.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Nov 2019 02:49:33 -0800 (PST) User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.f.191014 Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2019 05:49:33 -0500 Subject: Secdir review of draft-ietf-pim-drlb-13 From: Carl Wallace To: , , Message-ID: <2572EB02-5F21-451B-95EA-B7D8D2207AC8@redhoundsoftware.com> Thread-Topic: Secdir review of draft-ietf-pim-drlb-13 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2019 10:49:39 -0000 I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last call comments. This document defines an extension to the PIM-SM protocol to allow some responsibilities of is Designated Router to be distributed amongst a set of routers instead of the router elected as DR. The document is well written and has clear examples. The security considerations references those of the DR as applicable to the new mechanism. This seems fine. One minor comment, the last sentence in the operational considerations section seemed odd to me. It wasn't clear to me why migration between different hash algorithms is not considered in this document (or why this is much different from changes in DR priority, which is also required to be considered as a GDR candidate). The document is ready to my eye. From nobody Sat Nov 9 05:55:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61D3312007C for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2019 05:55:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U_Wmvm3ujk5c for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2019 05:55:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E7C6120041 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2019 05:55:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1iTRCb-000GCG-V3; Sat, 09 Nov 2019 08:54:57 -0500 Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2019 08:54:52 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Michael Richardson , "Andrew G. Malis" cc: IETF Discussion Subject: Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews]] Message-ID: <3FCA12131A93886ACEE4CA3D@PSB> In-Reply-To: <11067.1573232764@dooku.sandelman.ca> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> <11796.1573157656@localhost> <26D1F92D-67A9-4F96-9FFF-76D525C4BE6E@piuha.net> <5ae8bb9f-3aa6-b930-70e7-d38d7bc46c07@network-heretics.com> <335EAA17262BD4585E4E8964@PSB> <10164.1573227364@dooku.sande lman.ca> <11067.1573232764@dooku.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2019 13:55:03 -0000 --On Friday, November 8, 2019 12:06 -0500 Michael Richardson wrote: > > Andrew G. Malis wrote: > >> So an alternate stat may be the number of unique people > who upload to >> the Datatracker. So that would require, > for each RFC published, >> getting the list of people who > uploaded. That would be a lower bound >> on number active > authors. The numbers Jari has would be the upper >> bound. > > > That would include Internet Draft authors as well as RFC > authors, but I > think that's a better metric of how many > active authors we have in a > given year. > > Well, the complexity is that one has to get the list of RFCs, > then the list of uploads for each RFC. > > > Except now we have authoring happening on GitHub as > well, which is more > difficult to track. For example, how > many active authors do we have in > the QUIC WG? Tough to > say without looking at their GitHub document > update > history. > > Thus a reason why I'd like to have the list of > contributors/acknowledgements in a structured format in the > document :-) Structured or not, our acknowledgments have tended to include people who made major contributions, people who proposed an alternate approach that stimulated thinking but whose ideas and/or text did not make it into the document, and people who read the document as reviewers and picked a few editorial nits without making any substantive contribution or giving evidence that the understood its technical content. I've occasionally included people in acknowledgments (with appropriately circuitous language) whose sole contribution was irritating me enough that I didn't abandon the document or the underlying work. If you are going to structure such acknowledgement, you will need a lot of categories, willingness by authors/editors to go to the extra trouble to properly identify them. As an extreme example, consider: Ima Fool or Hes An Obstacle (PersonWhoBlockedDocumentUntilTheyGotTheirOwnWay) FWIW, this thread is leading down the path and into the rathole that was a significant cause of most other voluntary SDOs concluding that finished documents should show only the standards body as author, often accompanied by a list of WG members and, in some bodies, identification of WG chairs and an editor. Perhaps not coincidently, it is also where Jon Postel started, i.e., with the notion that the "author" or "editor" should be the contact person and what we've sometimes called the pen-holder, with everyone else acknowledged, perhaps in general terms. best, john From nobody Sat Nov 9 06:12:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78822120096 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2019 06:12:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bRLIzED7mWB0; Sat, 9 Nov 2019 06:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 151F11200F7; Sat, 9 Nov 2019 06:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1iTRTm-000GEe-RO; Sat, 09 Nov 2019 09:12:42 -0500 Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2019 09:12:37 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: John Leslie cc: nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org, ietf Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20191105155759.GC53355@widor3.jlc.net> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <20191105155759.GC53355@widor3.jlc.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2019 14:12:46 -0000 (top post) Let me add one additional comment to John's description of the problem, which which I largely agree. He suggested that it had become "entirely too difficult to say no to any new-group proposal". I suggest that it has gotten even more difficult to say no to anything emerging from a working group, no matter how ill-conceived. Statistics about how long documents were sitting in IESG evaluation, waiting for AD, or waiting for new draft states might be very illuminating about this. best, john --On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 10:57 -0500 John Leslie wrote: > On Mon, Nov 04, 2019 at 07:54:52PM +0000, Salz, Rich wrote: >> >> I wonder what people think would break if we moved to 5 AD's >> per area, and they could divide the WG's and IESG concalls >> amongst themselves? > > The whole process would break. :^( > > (I don't know whether that's good or bad...) > > Beyond question, the workload has become oppressive. > > Different IETF-Chairs have different approaches. Adapting > to these changes, IMHO, has been challenging for IESG members. > > But the long-term trend has been to make it entirely too > difficult to say no to any new-group proposal. A pair of > WG-chairs is appointed, and the AD's don't have time to follow > the actual process. > > Some WGCs listen very carefully to AD advice; others don't. > Some ADs give very good advice early; others don't. > > But there's an endemic problem: enough of the hoi-polloi > see each WG as the only possible way to "solve" their problem; > and they develop tunnel vision. Thus anyone other than the AD > who points out a problem is facing a cliff-like wall of > resistance. > > This leads to problems entombed in published RFCs. > > It is rare for these problems to be solved -- ever. > > Beating your head against these entombed problems > _seriously_ reduces the enthusiasm of ordinary IETF-ers to > devote full-time to our process. > > :^( :^( :^( > > (Having basically retired from my full-time job, I have > perhaps enough time available to work on this, but nowhere > near enough money to cover $50,000 per year of out-of pocket > expenses.) (Also, I hate air travel!) > > But perhaps, somebody else will explore alternatives to > selecting only employer-sponsored folks for the IESG... > > -- > John Leslie > From nobody Sat Nov 9 06:28:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9D171200F7 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2019 06:28:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 62xg0JorxCvo; Sat, 9 Nov 2019 06:28:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x12a.google.com (mail-il1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC9C51200C5; Sat, 9 Nov 2019 06:28:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id m5so7803119ilq.0; Sat, 09 Nov 2019 06:28:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ofP2KrL1afEJq5wwE2OMCHiSRqkMfRMKRux8SWLtzWM=; b=EQLt79o6l1Rd67y5m4ujJVcRB7F+skwbm8hx20JTf5uoTEZZMaV8l2faXVCDwTcq10 219BSCJXFfwB87sTQV3gym1/DDH7RBbhEZdANB2XbuZgFpE43FDOqskhOVE3Mh+EsHCd 2lsgsF8ePeP7CMhSvO+52x4KdHeIEYIp2QifTrxAp/p0W6aREjGIBBebRJm6881u838v i6U6tjv53dx3qV4uo+dbalnxvtncuftWWXpUIEtSuWS3oTkQDDHLAhEVf0Cdlap5Wy+r ATeQhvfeoFinXDDQs4J2gF6q8QOhWBaBVQCTYWF1bgiX1VaH5UuR+lU/WIbb/32vrAnI WlBA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ofP2KrL1afEJq5wwE2OMCHiSRqkMfRMKRux8SWLtzWM=; b=UNh2zCbPQOjzduUqAG4IR2sB4mMn6+weRWxc2UipnHVEcV6oxTJxkhvpldDI/7feH6 5ybh9xSfqR6n1NkPre47C9DxdgmISBC33V0m/eNocYOMD6x2s2ilB/QNo0kIeVOjjzUX Qlxg8/tuL3nmlhsgni4Yqhndv4wO4WwZHAwY6auUfQ1v+wIvl9675Z+5LyrTIhNfnYbQ QWPrIm1c5L34G1bq/cCu8LH5wg32CspylSqXE+cM9zMM7RLRn2cRFUcbXJ5DnKF+o5Sk pIiq7p7rPH/3rCL5u6IEymzXYsAqxiJFBkurGeNvoCEve171pYbOGOB9k8EOrrcQdA0+ 2j0g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWqb+x2rPJFd2+/r/qPlcnUpj43NKTPyOBbMCG4pai8LttQ23bh sTQ4dUg7n+v86FVNiTvd843dLcYKVV3xOvlwR4o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxLiFeNDGKV8R7N+T5txQTmpaeDNIICnJSLNpIcTU/I+FvsGdXYJ/WGkX3gVZ8xZdYiFUpQdcx84HfwOWttNYE= X-Received: by 2002:a92:1612:: with SMTP id r18mr18741123ill.60.1573309684029; Sat, 09 Nov 2019 06:28:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <20191105155759.GC53355@widor3.jlc.net> In-Reply-To: From: Mary B Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 08:27:52 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback To: John C Klensin Cc: John Leslie , NomCom Chair 2019 , ietf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d69dbd0596eab492" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2019 14:28:07 -0000 --000000000000d69dbd0596eab492 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" In DISPATCH WG, the whole point is to do a better job considering new work before chartering or even progressing as AD sponsored. We have told several folks that there was no interest in their work at IETF. Of course, they then go the ISE route, which honestly I don't necessarily have an issue with, but that work does come back to someone in the IETF with expertise in that area to do a review and as I'm recalling ADs have to consider whether there's any conflict. So, yes, it's really hard, if not impossible to tell people we're not going to spend any cycles on their pet project. And, unfortunately, it also depends upon who is bringing in the work. We are not the meritocracy that many think we are for several reasons. Regards, Mary. On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 8:13 AM John C Klensin wrote: > (top post) > > Let me add one additional comment to John's description of the > problem, which which I largely agree. He suggested that it had > become "entirely too difficult to say no to any new-group > proposal". I suggest that it has gotten even more difficult to > say no to anything emerging from a working group, no matter how > ill-conceived. Statistics about how long documents were sitting > in IESG evaluation, waiting for AD, or waiting for new draft > states might be very illuminating about this. > > best, > john > > > --On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 10:57 -0500 John Leslie > wrote: > > > On Mon, Nov 04, 2019 at 07:54:52PM +0000, Salz, Rich wrote: > >> > >> I wonder what people think would break if we moved to 5 AD's > >> per area, and they could divide the WG's and IESG concalls > >> amongst themselves? > > > > The whole process would break. :^( > > > > (I don't know whether that's good or bad...) > > > > Beyond question, the workload has become oppressive. > > > > Different IETF-Chairs have different approaches. Adapting > > to these changes, IMHO, has been challenging for IESG members. > > > > But the long-term trend has been to make it entirely too > > difficult to say no to any new-group proposal. A pair of > > WG-chairs is appointed, and the AD's don't have time to follow > > the actual process. > > > > Some WGCs listen very carefully to AD advice; others don't. > > Some ADs give very good advice early; others don't. > > > > But there's an endemic problem: enough of the hoi-polloi > > see each WG as the only possible way to "solve" their problem; > > and they develop tunnel vision. Thus anyone other than the AD > > who points out a problem is facing a cliff-like wall of > > resistance. > > > > This leads to problems entombed in published RFCs. > > > > It is rare for these problems to be solved -- ever. > > > > Beating your head against these entombed problems > > _seriously_ reduces the enthusiasm of ordinary IETF-ers to > > devote full-time to our process. > > > > :^( :^( :^( > > > > (Having basically retired from my full-time job, I have > > perhaps enough time available to work on this, but nowhere > > near enough money to cover $50,000 per year of out-of pocket > > expenses.) (Also, I hate air travel!) > > > > But perhaps, somebody else will explore alternatives to > > selecting only employer-sponsored folks for the IESG... > > > > -- > > John Leslie > > > > > > > --000000000000d69dbd0596eab492 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In DISPATCH WG, the whole point is to do a better job cons= idering new work before chartering or even progressing as AD sponsored.=C2= =A0 We have told several folks that there was no interest in their work at = IETF.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Of course, they then go the ISE route, which honestly I d= on't necessarily have an issue with, but that work does come back to so= meone in the IETF with expertise in that area to do a review and as I'm= recalling ADs have to consider whether there's any conflict.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0So, yes, it's really hard, if not impossible to tell people we'r= e not going to spend any cycles on their pet project.=C2=A0 And, unfortunat= ely, it also depends upon who is bringing in the work.=C2=A0 We are not the= meritocracy that many think we are for several reasons.

Regards,
Mary.=C2=A0=C2=A0

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 8:13 AM J= ohn C Klensin <john@jck.com> wrot= e:
(top post)
Let me add one additional comment to John's description of the
problem, which which I largely agree. He suggested that it had
become "entirely too difficult to say no to any new-group
proposal".=C2=A0 =C2=A0I suggest that it has gotten even more difficul= t to
say no to anything emerging from a working group, no matter how
ill-conceived.=C2=A0 Statistics about how long documents were sitting
in IESG evaluation, waiting for AD, or waiting for new draft
states might be very illuminating about this.

best,
=C2=A0 john


--On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 10:57 -0500 John Leslie
<john@widor3.jl= c.net> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 04, 2019 at 07:54:52PM +0000, Salz, Rich wrote:
>>
>> I wonder what people think would break if we moved to 5 AD's >> per area, and they could divide the WG's and IESG concalls
>> amongst themselves?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The whole process would break. :^(
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (I don't know whether that's good or bad...)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Beyond question, the workload has become oppressive.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Different IETF-Chairs have different approaches. Adapting=
> to these changes, IMHO, has been challenging for IESG members.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 But the long-term trend has been to make it entirely too<= br> > difficult to say no to any new-group proposal. A pair of
> WG-chairs is appointed, and the AD's don't have time to follow=
> the actual process.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Some WGCs listen very carefully to AD advice; others don&= #39;t.
> Some ADs give very good advice early; others don't.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 But there's an endemic problem: enough of the hoi-pol= loi
> see each WG as the only possible way to "solve" their proble= m;
> and they develop tunnel vision. Thus anyone other than the AD
> who points out a problem is facing a cliff-like wall of
> resistance.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This leads to problems entombed in published RFCs.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It is rare for these problems to be solved -- ever.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Beating your head against these entombed problems
> _seriously_ reduces the enthusiasm of ordinary IETF-ers to
> devote full-time to our process.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 :^( :^( :^(
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (Having basically retired from my full-time job, I have > perhaps enough time available to work on this, but nowhere
> near enough money to cover $50,000 per year of out-of pocket
> expenses.) (Also, I hate air travel!)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 But perhaps, somebody else will explore alternatives to > selecting only employer-sponsored folks for the IESG...
>
> --
> John Leslie <john= @jlc.net>
>




--000000000000d69dbd0596eab492-- From nobody Sat Nov 9 06:36:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 041B512010D for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2019 06:36:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.865 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.865 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NGp9TKFkfprc for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2019 06:36:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6DBC1200C5 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2019 06:36:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from client-0178.vpn.uni-bremen.de (client-0178.vpn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.107.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 479KT175Nbzyv9; Sat, 9 Nov 2019 15:36:21 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews]] From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <26D1F92D-67A9-4F96-9FFF-76D525C4BE6E@piuha.net> Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 15:36:21 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 595002979.1446511-1279e1201da606fdb997055e9bbbde1f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> <11796.1573157656@localhost> <26D1F92D-67A9-4F96-9FFF-76D525C4BE6E@piuha.net> To: IETF Discussion X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2019 14:36:26 -0000 On Nov 8, 2019, at 08:11, Jari Arkko wrote: >=20 > 2015 698 > 2016 711 > 2017 630 > 2018 541 > 2019 370 >> 370*(365.0/Time.now.yday) =3D> 431.4696485623003 More importantly, the RPC is constipated by the v3 switch, so those = numbers aren=E2=80=99t very indicative. Maybe looking at >> 370*(365.0/Time.parse("2019-09-16").yday) =3D> 521.4285714285714 gives a clearer indication that we are about where we were in 2018. But = really, there should be some metric run over the RFC editor queue as = well. OK, so much for playing scientist here. Now for the process wonk in me = (which I=E2=80=99m definitely only playing). It seems to me all the proposals to add work for everyone to get better = metadata for making these measurements are non-starters. A little more = information can be extracted out of the existing information in the = datatracker, which would make a nice project for a student maybe, but = the main contributors all have way more important things to do. So what do we learn? =20 Citing this snippet again: > My impression from the regular plenary reports on attendance my = impression is > that the number of people involved in the IETF is declining, yet the = number > of RFCs being processed is going up. There are lots of impressions here, which as we see often aren=E2=80=99t = supported (or even are contradicted) by the indicators we have. E.g., my =E2=80=9Cimpression=E2=80=9D also is that conflicts are going = up, but maybe that is just a facet of the IoT work I=E2=80=99m engaged = in going mainstream and impacting/being impacted by more WGs. The original idea in some of the contributions to this thread, which in = my words I=E2=80=99d summarize as lobotomizing the quality engineering = we do so we can get more candidates for ADs, is a non-starter as well. = Most of the arguments in this thread for this are bolstered by = statements about what specific participants of the process *should* be = doing (also known as process confabulation in software engineering), not = by observations about reality. That we don=E2=80=99t have a good alternative to the current process = doesn=E2=80=99t mean we can=E2=80=99t tune some knobs, and I=E2=80=99d = prefer if we=E2=80=99d focus on what these knobs are. Strengthening the = directorate review system (with the objective to reduce variance in = review quality and timing) is very well worth some effort. Feeding more = early cross-area review into the WG process that precedes the IESG = review also would help; we have been trying to do this but probably need = to be more consistent in these efforts. All in all I think that making someone responsible for proposing tuning = actions and observing and evaluating the results, preferably over a = longer time than a single AD tenure, might help. Not in the sense of = =E2=80=9Cwenn ich nicht mehr weiter wei=C3=9F, bilde ich =E2=80=98nen = Arbeitskreis=E2=80=9D (not sure that this aphorism about the tendency of = German bureaucracy to shift responsibility to useless committees is = translatable), but in the sense of creating actual responsibility. = Sweeping actions would still need to go through our consensus process, = which makes them very expensive, but continued attention on smaller = tweaks might already help a lot. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sat Nov 9 18:05:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67AAE1200D5 for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:05:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZSdAKPeOyfLI for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3F7C12001E for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:05:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (unknown [115.171.60.244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DDCC33897C for ; Sat, 9 Nov 2019 21:02:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews]] To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> <11796.1573157656@localhost> <26D1F92D-67A9-4F96-9FFF-76D525C4BE6E@piuha.net> From: Michael Richardson Message-ID: <4e64b473-82d6-9a40-475c-06ecb1c33685@sandelman.ca> Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 10:05:08 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0DE08D4FC03C639BDC586A23" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 02:05:19 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0DE08D4FC03C639BDC586A23 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2019-11-09 9:36 a.m., Carsten Bormann wrote: > Strengthening the directorate review system (with the objective to > reduce variance in review quality and timing) is very well worth some effort. I think that we are in agreement here. My recent experience is that I could not get (timely) feedback from the reviewers as to whether or not they were happy with the changes. I think that this is a chronic situation, so the ADs have learnt that a negative review doesn't mean much if there has been a revision to the document since. So they go ahead anyway, and then the AD winds up redoing the review, and being uncertain if the WG actually thought about the review comments and proceeded anyway. This is a serious commitment by the reviewers; that's why I want better acknowledgment for them. (And I'm not worried about the way that John and John about having too many categories) --------------0DE08D4FC03C639BDC586A23 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="pEpkey.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pEpkey.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQGNBF3EaO8BDADNdcAioLgGWFMLcmR6SuX1ioVH0v1fcprk0Wl1Qc7LCdwqj+QS dv84oNe1h6lTf+CsmzO+TZtL+2iUzR3WHyXViEJcSHldx2YIfgxGZkzqgqozDj2I oHCU6ezhQz2TwJO7l6H7fIPBbemIu8qVezwP1azLVq3D+cXZkkOvsFhTiw1bF/WF 8lIIAYEbQ4YyYyjk5DS30x59kxFNSv6om8rqSAKs2epneEWpzybB0J82dBnB4VDD sMmTJWPkszvQoCjCbrvgDAuoRtL5su2VIQWw61O6N5p1mwJ7VQoPDWYyeFH4NrVl L71FwRLueVPle76Oi3ybE2IMUvHZ/e42jVBizlQj1N/2x7mGk35Zrvz0WHjZLcFJ YJkDOnLsMU1smhdRtxNfYf576DTlzQKVcLmNCfOKAWnz4DdQgRI4pNs24NoxLXl5 v5mhDHRX5Me+CuckkFNGSlCXZ5kMXzPPFAV6CwMlm65P1tVJq9td8Uh05I5okPcE Nk5iY+FniqMXamsAEQEAAbQlTWljaGFlbCBSaWNoYXJkc29uIDxtY3JAc2FuZGVs bWFuLmNhPokB1AQTAQgAPhYhBKMP9ag1YAG1i9s8WHACrsLM2IBDBQJdxGjwAhsD BQkB4TOABQsJCAcCBhUKCQgLAgQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEHACrsLM2IBDeJ4MAMvU mQjFqXgsg4KhIWQbQBcgNPxrtp9jW/i2m//0zVA2iGxbeTOZD6cmcNDRj153TbSG TEH03oJIeYbdwlOCe5blA6h4FTEBwt/qX+mjRYKXuA3uvFdEJQJPFcaWFF68rgQM xgLPPUAnTYQ00SqaBEg+Vh4gSh8yOHuU8VTgenm4JpBdJQx7/7syvIaQilhN2fF2 5CcA7hArmebkaG691x+cFD60s8ITI9PSf82SVUnpmspJTGptxFxH/GM/kW40iB4t UjZrUSQfTfWIXA/5j005XbVbo1DIYirWWNK0WPVsh51ullztu37BDVj/SmgbGhvT UXwsBi4b+T2cJHLt+8QT/KM8OA+UA8AlkNPleKtOzxsg5z22m0fzollEZcw9VIoj PKIhTUYU79InmibEUoGfb05MFJM9aXX5BMoJNpKcB92PKI/gMsrxMwH1exs0cY/E K/xYdpFo3rTPw5KSsDkr7ZbqGPgz+QP2H+TLwgLKMFTBlVKpj+oqBnqeEVVrC7kB jQRdxGjvAQwA0T5oxtsQkr3I3FxBi5TkNSh0HZ7ND5xJJkyM6wLAsljLk5Khdcxj Tlo6htNjRUuUy1Ld0bARmezZf5GqKRh6fR7WX9EdYjGm0RbcK3tQ3L61h4p3EOpl KgMSoGpGamLSDzRs3SAJu4GFiHfzQ20R0PxBN/CbzWh6ROPcxQ8wwt8G4ZOwU4zX fSmZqZwNp/6xosLCl3TKvFWX6421Vb/LWAOOAz/xSyS0GCUs/grBUfzu95+TTskR k7kkeYSQ//1Oq9srPlIU9lx3Y4jDgPkXIwd9eXOqe7/5y4bQkILGGMIux878DhAE D865hPMBuHlkDNzIuo6HhjRkShLBM16yQhK+NJ0WI77+m1FD7r5QL6iU57zI/B5U 03JKZhW0Pm3Bm+RWZPWGVawkPUnvxoMFbw+x1+MnKZgXwRmRmbFsCHhDVmrDKLWX Rm9QvTB+k0ZnTdme9ZwSNCn0CXME2rNtOR39Yh6dsWH2nMPvg/G5iUmZyO9Oa01W xhWcXnKA+v+VABEBAAGJAbwEGAEIACYWIQSjD/WoNWABtYvbPFhwAq7CzNiAQwUC XcRo7wIbDAUJAeEzgAAKCRBwAq7CzNiAQwaOC/4olaVHP/npCn2CrtAOstbyyteP FmS9NAwdT8A6mA4s+WshPo1DhKEnKnYzW/S0jLf0iqlzT8LUqu2G8f6elGzghRR8 WJVn0zH7LVCKMWo/tHE2rWyiQ1zuX9o7ChTodQ8cXx0lM1xdY8v4Amc5fFxyyhJp rKZAtiDJ897vv1jP09fWLEBhaDsHqLhgckQpIoee0Id4FXGt7wxDsPwa64SUUCTY dt98EiLoUY6eAWQnyelgbFU+D/bxkeytmmvWOVr7UXVMQlEKG7E31G1XQMk6sFAT F1dwiH/laLQPLuMYr7owUC+ef/YAWSHMTYeIfwdt/Yd8ngJ8SFA6Uc+Bjr0i1jdn xS5H3EF4V1FNY2rh4zNPVNj2UrZaShK/XH4hnTJUYL5fo2ygt2ZM98ot8lIsHGAJ QHDl2/EffLsAL85pXDPl8E+nvOUOE1kwmfOgv/oV8z0469qu/hNiEpGp8xKBqGEL NWHd8fH5S9JxVix9Ed34vi9Cyf24iLjiWZBemXw=3D =3DgM0D -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------0DE08D4FC03C639BDC586A23-- From nobody Tue Nov 12 10:22:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02DE4120A3E for ; 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d="scan'208";a="19109595" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 12 Nov 2019 18:21:52 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp7295.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp7295.cisco.com [10.61.92.126]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id xACILp2C012626 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 12 Nov 2019 18:21:52 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) Subject: Re: LLC Board Meeting Details - 18 November 2019 From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <157358242100.25951.5931081193762366168.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 19:21:51 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5745DDE8-9245-4FC4-A51F-02FC9BE9CD7F@cisco.com> References: <157358242100.25951.5931081193762366168.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3601.0.10) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.92.126, ams3-vpn-dhcp7295.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 18:22:18 -0000 Hi! Would this be a good time to discuss = draft-lear-we-gotta-stop-meeting-like-this? > On 12 Nov 2019, at 19:13, IETF Administration LLC Board of Directors = Chair wrote: >=20 > - Please see below for details on observing this meeting in person - >=20 >=20 > IETF LLC Board of Directors meetings are conducted via = web/teleconference. Members of the community are welcome to attend = certain portions of these meetings as observers. Regular meetings are = divided into three sections: >=20 > 1. Open (to Observers) > 2. Board + Support Staff Only > 3. Executive Session (Board-Only) >=20 > The next meeting will be held on Monday, November 18, 2019 at 13:30 = SGT (05:30 UTC). WebEx and Dial-in information is at the bottom of this = message and also at = . The meeting = will be held in Singapore during IETF 106. In-person observers are = welcome at the Singapore Fairmont in room Minto.=20 >=20 > The agenda for the meeting can be found at = . >=20 > A calendar of upcoming public meetings can be downloaded or subscribed = to at:=20 > = https://calendar.google.com/calendar/ical/ietf.org_vmffrv4hq14aqpedenuv5v4= 2hs%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------=20 > JOIN WEBEX MEETING > = https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dmb4cd878ebbbc2fd25a11cad47b249f4a= =20 > Meeting number (access code): 314 642 358 >=20 >=20 > JOIN BY PHONE > 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) > Meeting number (access code): 314 642 358 >=20 >=20 >=20 > IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows > audio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during > the session to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically > consent to such recordings. If you do not consent to the recording, > discuss your concerns with the meeting host prior to the start of the > recording or do not join the session. Please note that any such > recordings may be subject to discovery in the event of litigation. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce From nobody Tue Nov 12 11:43:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12391120834; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 11:43:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YMkK2mV0XcEj; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 11:43:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x732.google.com (mail-qk1-x732.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 197B412082B; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 11:43:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x732.google.com with SMTP id i19so15606522qki.2; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 11:43:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=Ncp0Xjkx7N2i8vAhxYymwDa63zUnU2W5EY0snoicLSU=; b=lwAMZRO4PIrVCgRqKngyoyI4xcPeP2ZW8BQL8iU4slHOpv8U9g1k1JB5RLhN9RMsz4 I70yQKNblJz8INxNJKyvxOZlz+Xr+eR7ERs/pAjalrzKVADfJvEC7O9rCdom/RqL3s/8 QvZsf4+cVTomN9R3bIBm2hbQYLsTLp+bzQz39NPmXUPmqjLhDmV7G8hvbVpquoPdIKUu 1qpFxIrL4MAI1kAd7ApEzXMPecPJl99lWYeLeKo28GzGtCidt+Icedj/t8uK3lnLkPaf Pb01zn+Ngb4DMZ9e5GDsq2YLl4UmT1rT6cb/JO2mEoTggxSapW8qoWskYBm1g+h1Llhk lt6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=Ncp0Xjkx7N2i8vAhxYymwDa63zUnU2W5EY0snoicLSU=; b=HUzWnu17LpOQEILcI9q1qbCMcYPgdea8OQv0kWMWzdS7fnDh81RIhZhzlX+FxqwXfR VH+TklQplQYSzezTdugWqCtylEuZBxoMIRtrwhlurFMlKVhajkPjceDSh6I6ktdvlu+M 8wNy0eoH14NW4zMfTwK4JtT3pFiKeQpFvGH20x2S6iThey6zBO4tMqai34GVotbf4vx8 13pCZa3C1PDQlZvzbn16Y8+slKbY+UBhalq7VjiwrotvAp6BCqqQHzesovL4QN2kq740 JCs/jO0hdcgo9M+j7EVtnYKrCf4cOb5l22FLoGlQk+BygXb1h4ZycgYfwn5sc0PdL/WQ +vhA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWkrHDsiAVAf1LOe8IjMJsEjkd7VP6hdmrhF3aFd6yYXzz/6IZT q2xz77ZjKcjCRvMra1SBv7gQx965 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzzQlyCuyNZ81849qEU/92DnrCQjqpFRPDOGF9Yi7+IncRJmCoC9Yz9gmhcDvjf2/rr2D3tAg== X-Received: by 2002:ae9:de05:: with SMTP id s5mr16892441qkf.175.1573587810915; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 11:43:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.19.117.97] ([2601:184:4881:2420:74c8:8bd8:82db:85c1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k26sm3962008qtm.10.2019.11.12.11.43.29 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 12 Nov 2019 11:43:29 -0800 (PST) From: "Aaron Falk" To: "IRTF Discuss" , "IETF WG Chairs" , "IETF Discussion" , "106 attendees" <106attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Let's have some fun: PechaKucha & friends Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 14:43:28 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13r5655) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_4FBF3AE0-851F-48E2-AC84-9B1B0095D360_=" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 19:43:35 -0000 --=_MailMate_4FBF3AE0-851F-48E2-AC84-9B1B0095D360_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed; markup=markdown Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Still looking for a few more presenters for next Thursday night... This is a call for participation in a social event around satirical = short talks. (There is usually beer involved.) In the past, talks = needed to fit the PechaKucha format but it is rather strict (20 slides, = each on screen for 20 seconds, minimal text). So, I=E2=80=99d like to re= peat = the experiment we tried in Montreal. Any talk format will be allowed = (including PK) with a maximum length of 7 minutes. As before, the = topics are encouraged to be a IETF-related and satirical or = controversial in some way, although not mean-spirited. Anyone can = participate in this unofficial social event. Date: Thursday evening (November 21) starting at 9:30pm in Sophia. If you haven=E2=80=99t been to one of these events, Here are two of my = personal favorites from prior IETFs by = [Pete](http://bapk-videos.mamadrum.net/old/IETF-099-Prague-videos/07-pete= -resnick-8.mp4) = and = [Brian](http://bapk-videos.mamadrum.net/old/IETF-099-Prague-videos/IETF-0= 96-Berlin-videos/2_trammel-8.mp4). = Video from the past BA PKs can be found = [here](http://bapk-videos.mamadrum.net). If you want to do a pechakucha, there are lots of online tutorials and = suggestions for how to make a good PechaKucha. Here are a few: = [[1](http://www.pechakucha.org/)], = [[2](http://blog.indezine.com/2012/05/10-tips-to-create-and-present-pecha= =2Ehtml)], = [[3](https://catherinecronin.wordpress.com/2012/06/13/pecha-kucha/)]. As my friend Spencer says: =E2=80=9CMake good decisions, People!=E2=80=9D= Format Details: * Presentation slots are open to all, assigned first come, first served. * To reserve a presentation slot, send a name and title to = aaron.falk@gmail.com and receive confirmation. * Presenters must agree to limit their talks to less than 7 minutes = (strictly enforced using the Lars Eggert Approach). * Slides are due Thursday 6pm in Powerpoint or PDF. --=_MailMate_4FBF3AE0-851F-48E2-AC84-9B1B0095D360_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Still looking for a few more presenters for next Thursday= night...

This is a call for participation in a social event around= satirical short talks. (There is usually beer involved.) In the past, = talks needed to fit the PechaKucha format but it is rather strict (20 sli= des, each on screen for 20 seconds, minimal text). So, I=E2=80=99d like = to repeat the experiment we tried in Montreal. Any talk format will be a= llowed (including PK) with a maximum length of 7 minutes. As before, the= topics are encouraged to be a IETF-related and satirical or controversia= l in some way, although not mean-spirited. Anyone can participate in thi= s unofficial social event.

Date: Thursday evening (November 21) starting at 9:30pm i= n Sophia.

If you haven=E2=80=99t been to one of these events, Here = are two of my personal favorites from prior IETFs by Pete and Brian. Video from the past BA PKs can be fo= und h= ere.

If you want to do a pechakucha, there are lots of online = tutorials and suggestions for how to make a good PechaKucha. Here are a = few: [1], [2], [3].

As my friend Spencer says: =E2=80=9CMake good decisions, = People!=E2=80=9D

Format Details:

--=_MailMate_4FBF3AE0-851F-48E2-AC84-9B1B0095D360_=-- From nobody Tue Nov 12 18:19:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF3B412003F for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 18:19:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vUxbCHuYUC8a for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 18:19:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 654AC120019 for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 18:19:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id 1so769398iou.4 for ; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 18:19:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+kPlaxSOA4GO7BPXpONB+Roi8BOrT9sUOx5dagb40YY=; b=im7en8rfCZEj+k5d3wqw9qTY75Uywi0oSa33eBEGiove7fsOF+XruUCuKmGXjUZyaD o7qQu2W8Orjq4LDOqUb2aWJzCdRkYKiaAP0tcP5LY2SRhNrTeGeSQkgIkGHHsf3b2A9t BzOzych96TsWbWiDK4CQ/R4AXySs1jP2jyb2D0cIq7o9Aslf3/UeMRj9Elrg+rw0kvxW qTxzm3zKKjTXAqvj2QhVladWL6fF2l55isKrTscB5HliG726Pm2KzvcRHJBNSYYefWAX IwuuUrCBtOR79tf0P9/Xce50e2F/oU25QKniAqqI0kR2Is850h7joPeSNCAYNH0iDWDo ZPzw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+kPlaxSOA4GO7BPXpONB+Roi8BOrT9sUOx5dagb40YY=; b=HhLMzyqKtfx1KovpNFSEeOk0RTuqcArH89pW55WTGfAFB9BWO2EBB13EhOV6H4tRJ4 vQC7V2EYdS/8WhX5O/ycfe2f/Roj3tYs2pG+2jj3PD4jhBCXsr5xVPTzibN9hU8jkZzx d4diYp/Yu3OGC3Kd1N8sUiKW2JnwXdGZYgk11YJ0Ya/cz4lJlqpg6m2DSo+qPqVd68NN 3sos3QKc422LMM6GIfbnHqVQZ6EvFxXK33oCCs7uddmLMIkzN75xjGWQ1kMkrKx/UWKK XYPAf/+YDF5E+mKfPgcbgYSMnP5d3DE5LGa34bQfOAU77e4JI+wZll8WK1A3katypX0z KCkw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV7BosuzBE1DqIUdbAFnBC98PEOeYjTkZUVP1SroPcpKyt8uYzr yGxZo7mKHiPK2v5gnNXydvsb5VdznQPL7SgsC53NhS31 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyMa1V8hHIl6GMiLpQZWnqjy7k6LvP+f8uS6Dy8Q73HJrY0QtGUcbx47Vfd21OoT8PQ6gKupg4KkVykUGn9kEg= X-Received: by 2002:a02:ac0a:: with SMTP id a10mr767814jao.53.1573611574418; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 18:19:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157358242100.25951.5931081193762366168.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5745DDE8-9245-4FC4-A51F-02FC9BE9CD7F@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <5745DDE8-9245-4FC4-A51F-02FC9BE9CD7F@cisco.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 18:19:23 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: LLC Board Meeting Details - 18 November 2019 To: Eliot Lear Cc: IETF discussion list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e8624b059730fe7b" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 02:19:37 -0000 --000000000000e8624b059730fe7b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 10:22 AM Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi! > > Would this be a good time to discuss > draft-lear-we-gotta-stop-meeting-like-this? > This is a great question. I believe the discussion will take place on WEBEX. That's DTLS 1.0, right? thanks, Rob --000000000000e8624b059730fe7b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 10:22 AM Elio= t Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:<= br>
Hi!

Would this be a good time to discuss draft-lear-we-gotta-stop-meeting-like-= this?

This is a great question. I belie= ve the discussion will take place on WEBEX. That's DTLS 1.0, right?

thanks,
Rob=C2=A0
--000000000000e8624b059730fe7b-- From nobody Wed Nov 13 07:08:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F06F120926 for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 07:08:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.646 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.646 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kAnEqV15Et3M for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 07:08:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-f52.google.com (mail-ot1-f52.google.com [209.85.210.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E701F120946 for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 07:08:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-f52.google.com with SMTP id b16so1867478otk.9 for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 07:08:01 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hahta1+9zvRDsBQ1jwq1VTFLHld50/Z5aYU/o86loHA=; b=rYTPUgH/Z2fx8vbKrioJEnQJc17luOxcYeov92/HMVwjyF88JJUhZQ6tzljl6tSCBp HiU66UEBEsJkMe1hzphCXAU4q2a7GHVNEkXEf7k14M/F/DTHHKMATPVvo5GfT9RSqG9v 680zx7M4yYlxvTht4ISWMRc40HDlju3sjydtGJ44Dgl11iLNszCau/lbDK6I5dNfJ21x 9ckh6Sh4ccHiHTSy4CtmxTcKttvLah8XXEfYvJJHucC/7Anmv0a77pwqf+k8jMWQX9cd B4plVUyrRdLVST3jITowTAoVZP7BXszivxZbA2kwm83L1uwcEJdOA2EC8jF14eq3FnCz wdcQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVuv3o6iVntGR/I4Mor4/3PjmeDOCBbXMah+otD6zv2ttSN3JE8 zn9a9fQONrVmBJtPDJdmMxkHTILWTOKZvn566TE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxMd5R1VoW5XIotc4UHwdiS3jhoexwxLEQFjhFI6DgiEWIEziuMc7fGEJQLJe/6OEgvmH3pGD/XGwBrVTPk3cA= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6f15:: with SMTP id n21mr3758792otq.231.1573657681134; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 07:08:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <20191.1573054128@localhost> <15BCDF05-FB13-45D2-A5DF-70618EBA1A5A@gmail.com> <9182.1573147520@localhost> In-Reply-To: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:07:47 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews To: Stewart Bryant Cc: Michael Richardson , Alexey Melnikov , Bob Hinden , IETF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000015092b05973bbb20" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 15:08:09 -0000 --00000000000015092b05973bbb20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Maybe we have the wrong model for security reviews and this is in part the result of the RFC series being kitchen sink. Some reviews are so trivial as to be irrelevant. Other cases you get a document where the security considerations is a link to another document that is nothing but security considerations. Maybe what we need is a structure that assigns multiple reviewers for some projects and rubber stamps others. Also note that I am a designer and my skill set is quite different to those of a hacker. I can show people a way to do a job so that there is a very small chance of getting it wrong. But thats not the same as spotting their mistake if they decide to do it their way. Another concern I have is formal methods and before folk start squawking about how they are necessary, my doctoral thesis is on formal methods. My college Tutor was Tony Hoare, I know what they are capable of. What worries me is that systems we can prove to be secure seem to be turning out to be fragile in the real world. If folk want an extreme example, look at BTC, the cryptography of the Blockchain is unbreakable. Yet I spent this morning talking to a friend dealing with the aftermath of a relative who has literally lost everything to a corrupt exchange scheme. --00000000000015092b05973bbb20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
May= be we have the wrong model for security reviews and this is in part the res= ult of the RFC series being kitchen sink.

Some reviews are so trivial as to be irrelevant. Other cas= es you get a document where the security considerations is a link to anothe= r document that is nothing but security considerations.

Maybe what we need is a structure that assig= ns multiple reviewers for some projects and rubber stamps others.

Also note that I am a designer and= my skill set is quite different to those of a hacker. I can show people a = way to do a job so that there is a very small chance of getting it wrong. B= ut thats not the same as spotting their mistake if they decide to do it the= ir way.

Another concern I= have is formal methods and before folk start squawking about how they are = necessary, my doctoral thesis is on formal methods. My college Tutor was To= ny Hoare, I know what they are capable of. What worries me is that systems = we can prove to be secure seem to be turning out to be fragile in the real = world.

If folk want an ex= treme example, look at BTC, the cryptography of the Blockchain is unbreakab= le. Yet I spent this morning talking to a friend dealing with the aftermath= of a relative who has literally lost everything to a corrupt exchange sche= me.
--00000000000015092b05973bbb20-- From nobody Wed Nov 13 07:25:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5493412080C for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 07:25:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ty65t4g0RSxB for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 07:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9E4D12002E for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 07:25:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5962F22243; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:25:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:25:18 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=6swV1d r34GPzf1KuEQiZesD/dTN7yWOo/mvNG597dpE=; b=sMa64h1a1DTRuWrxKSD0EP xVFjHKqqpR9yyVvCJSaziGOi8s4K48TRiaGSKZLVWpb7wuJZV7g2ze3SA5DydxTq iagmXgdNpI2i72SZM4cHBVH8n7uiKeZSx7hzM1sSk3wnSP6j5bZjkppgDhXXgyVn NBIACzRUbqJrtBD9EbPeGq1p4S9fEzuLtGTwwuk6xP3JOXAiQQhtTGVlKTNHEx6l fBOscpmZi8y6TPMWC9ClAOC+MieSjUEbK5BWaj0db9lGQsR9et7ljND6C9J6RxLh mQtMV2Wgig54QlG4ucECwn49dQt3gxNu3wZluCMtMhl9gopIfQCmS4QmDP8APg/Q == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudefuddgjeekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgesrgdtre ertdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecukfhppedutdekrddvvddurddukedtrdduhe enucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgv thhitghsrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C13643060062; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:25:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <20191.1573054128@localhost> <15BCDF05-FB13-45D2-A5DF-70618EBA1A5A@gmail.com> <9182.1573147520@localhost> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <02eb79d1-1830-5830-ed95-b743f601a8de@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:25:16 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------0276882F7DA301D23038B956" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 15:25:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0276882F7DA301D23038B956 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/13/19 10:07 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > Maybe what we need is a structure that assigns multiple reviewers for > some projects and rubber stamps others. Seems like ADs already have a fair amount of discretion to ask for multiple in-depth reviewers vs. getting minimal review.   If having a human make such decisions isn't your idea of an appropriate "structure", I'd be curious to know what is. Keith --------------0276882F7DA301D23038B956 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 11/13/19 10:07 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

Maybe what we need is a structure that assigns multiple reviewers for some projects and rubber stamps others.

Seems like ADs already have a fair amount of discretion to ask for multiple in-depth reviewers vs. getting minimal review.   If having a human make such decisions isn't your idea of an appropriate "structure", I'd be curious to know what is.

Keith


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NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KmT5YeBESi7k; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:28:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8F1E1209CB; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:28:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [130.209.157.53] (port=32745 helo=glaroam2-152-213.wireless.gla.ac.uk) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1iUxNI-0000rG-AT; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 18:28:16 +0000 From: Colin Perkins Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_98B8E0BE-FC3C-4CB9-B2E7-B86C395327B4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: ANRP award presentation at IETF 106 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 18:28:13 +0000 In-Reply-To: <94B554A8-DFF3-4E9C-B83B-621BDDBB3AC1@csperkins.org> Cc: IETF To: irtf-discuss@irtf.org References: <94B554A8-DFF3-4E9C-B83B-621BDDBB3AC1@csperkins.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 18:28:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_98B8E0BE-FC3C-4CB9-B2E7-B86C395327B4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 A reminder that Weiteng Chen from UC Riverside will give the ANRP award = talk during the IRTF Open Meeting in Singapore =E2=80=93 details below. Also, nominations for the 2020 Applied Networking Research Prize are now = open. If you know of work that you think should receive the award, = please nominate it via https://irtf.org/anrp/ Colin > On 30 Sep 2019, at 15:46, Colin Perkins wrote: >=20 > I=E2=80=99m pleased to announce that the Applied Networking Research = Prize (ANRP) awardee for the IETF 106 meeting in Singapore is Weiteng = Chen (UC Riverside) for "Off-path TCP exploit: how wireless routers can = jeopardize your secrets", Proceedings of the USENIX Security Symposium = 2018 (https://www.usenix.org/node/217606 = )=20 >=20 > Congratulations to Weiteng who will join us in Singapore to present = this paper during the IRTF Open Meeting. >=20 > More information about the ANRP can be found at https://irtf.org/anrp/ = . The ANRP is supported by the Internet Society = and IRTF, and sponsored by Comcast and NBC Universal. >=20 > Colin Perkins > IRTF Chair --Apple-Mail=_98B8E0BE-FC3C-4CB9-B2E7-B86C395327B4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 A = reminder that Weiteng Chen from UC Riverside will give the ANRP award = talk during the IRTF Open Meeting in Singapore =E2=80=93 details = below.

Also, nominations for the 2020 Applied Networking Research = Prize are now open. If you know of work that you think should receive = the award, please nominate it via https://irtf.org/anrp/

Colin


On 30 Sep 2019, at 15:46, Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org> = wrote:

I=E2=80=99m pleased to = announce that the Applied Networking Research = Prize (ANRP) awardee for the IETF 106 meeting in Singapore = is Weiteng Chen (UC Riverside) for "Off-path TCP exploit: how = wireless routers can jeopardize your secrets", Proceedings of the = USENIX Security Symposium 2018 (https://www.usenix.org/node/217606) 
Congratulations to Weiteng who will join us in Singapore to = present this paper during the IRTF Open Meeting.

More information about the ANRP can be found at https://irtf.org/anrp/. = The ANRP is supported by the Internet Society and IRTF, and = sponsored by Comcast and NBC Universal.

Colin Perkins
IRTF Chair

= --Apple-Mail=_98B8E0BE-FC3C-4CB9-B2E7-B86C395327B4-- From nobody Wed Nov 13 10:57:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DCFF1208C6; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:57:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jOur_pwu85Sx; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:57:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from rtp-alcoop-nitro3.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AC14C120843; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:57:17 -0800 (PST) From: IETF Chair Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: IESG pre-meeting report and note about the plenary Message-Id: <5ABAAF67-A28E-410A-B352-D9250AC31AE0@ietf.org> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 13:57:15 -0500 To: 106attendees@ietf.org, IETF discussion list X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 18:57:19 -0000 A report from myself and the IESG in advance of IETF 106 is available = here: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/materials/slides-106-ietf-sessb-i= etf-chair-and-iesg-report-ietf-106-00. Embedded links to other reports = will be updated as they become available. As the report notes, at the IETF 106 plenary the IESG will be = experimenting with using timers for the IESG open microphone session to = ensure enough time for all questions and comments and to make the = plenary more lively. Each participant in the microphone line will have = two minutes to speak and each collective response from the stage will be = capped at two minutes. Timers will be visible to the audience and to = those on stage. Alissa Cooper IETF Chair= From nobody Wed Nov 13 15:53:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89D0012010D for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 15:52:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mbqPwhGFz6nD for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 15:52:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78097120018 for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 15:52:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.41.2] (unknown [49.74.64.205]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5C2753818F for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 18:49:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: LLC Board Meeting Details - 18 November 2019 To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157358242100.25951.5931081193762366168.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5745DDE8-9245-4FC4-A51F-02FC9BE9CD7F@cisco.com> From: Michael Richardson Message-ID: <990b54c6-8268-3fa3-fbb2-a44d34ddaf11@sandelman.ca> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 07:52:51 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5745DDE8-9245-4FC4-A51F-02FC9BE9CD7F@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 23:52:59 -0000 On 2019-11-13 2:21 a.m., Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi! > > Would this be a good time to discuss draft-lear-we-gotta-stop-meeting-like-this? The public doesn't get to speak at the meetings, just observe. So, you'd need to get a board member to put it on the agenda. > >> On 12 Nov 2019, at 19:13, IETF Administration LLC Board of Directors Chair wrote: >> >> - Please see below for details on observing this meeting in person - >> >> >> IETF LLC Board of Directors meetings are conducted via web/teleconference. Members of the community are welcome to attend certain portions of these meetings as observers. Regular meetings are divided into three sections: >> >> 1. Open (to Observers) >> 2. Board + Support Staff Only >> 3. Executive Session (Board-Only) >> >> The next meeting will be held on Monday, November 18, 2019 at 13:30 SGT (05:30 UTC). WebEx and Dial-in information is at the bottom of this message and also at . The meeting will be held in Singapore during IETF 106. In-person observers are welcome at the Singapore Fairmont in room Minto. >> >> The agenda for the meeting can be found at . >> >> A calendar of upcoming public meetings can be downloaded or subscribed to at: >> https://calendar.google.com/calendar/ical/ietf.org_vmffrv4hq14aqpedenuv5v42hs%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> JOIN WEBEX MEETING >> https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=mb4cd878ebbbc2fd25a11cad47b249f4a >> Meeting number (access code): 314 642 358 >> >> >> JOIN BY PHONE >> 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) >> Meeting number (access code): 314 642 358 >> >> >> >> IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows >> audio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during >> the session to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically >> consent to such recordings. If you do not consent to the recording, >> discuss your concerns with the meeting host prior to the start of the >> recording or do not join the session. Please note that any such >> recordings may be subject to discovery in the event of litigation. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> IETF-Announce mailing list >> IETF-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce From nobody Thu Nov 14 03:26:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBF971200A4 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 03:26:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com header.b=5GSpoomf; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) 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Y2UNCg0KDQo= From nobody Thu Nov 14 03:39:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74549120105 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 03:39:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p0u9kGCrw2u8 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 03:39:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18E451200A4 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 03:39:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id xAEBdkDS042531 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:39:46 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id C46DC203797 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:39:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA7A5206276 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:39:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id xAEBdkpP028190 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:39:46 +0100 Subject: Re: make IPR declaration on IETF site but targeted at another SDO? To: ietf@ietf.org References: <7cfd2569-06d3-8562-6f73-b21d131db6d9@gmail.com> <26C8E34F-4AAC-4CA2-B54D-AD3C57CA03C0@eggert.org> <89F85067-9655-4784-89C2-46D56FE07177@akamai.com> <08e601d5957e$8700eb60$9502c220$@olddog.co.uk> <8A4DA7E0-1908-42AD-8359-AD42C0C4A3CA@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <3a1ff2f8-0ada-a616-192d-1dbb30ee10e7@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:39:46 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8A4DA7E0-1908-42AD-8359-AD42C0C4A3CA@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 11:39:51 -0000 I want to thank to the participants who posted replies. We read and analyzed each reply. The activity is pursuing. At this time, we are exploring within ETSI whether it is acceptable to make IPR declarations elsewhere (not on ETSI website) for ETSI-documented technology. We also asked whether ETSI would accept that that technology be put into an I-D too, and then refer to it in the ETSI document. We also asked ETSI whether other IPR submission ideas might be promissing (other than submitting IPR declarations on the ETSI website). We also contacted a person from the law department (service juridique) and another one from the IPR department. That's where we are with this. Alex PS: for information, the IP-based technology relates to vehicular networks, to vehicle-to-vehicle communication, to establishing IP paths, scalability, and to extensions of Router Advertisements. Le 07/11/2019 à 17:15, Bob Hinden a écrit : > Hi, > >> On Nov 7, 2019, at 7:17 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: >> >> I agree with Rich, here. >> >> Participation in each SDO is subject to the IPR rules of that SDO. Individuals or their sponsoring organisations need to follow those rules. >> >> Disclosing IPR in one SDO has zero impact on the disclosure of IPR in another SDO. >> >> Consult an attorney or read the rules? > > Yes, my take as well. The IETF IPR rules are for documents in the IETF process. If one has an issue in another SDO, use that SDO’s IPR process. > > Bob > > >> >> Adrian >> >> From: ietf On Behalf Of Salz, Rich >> Sent: 07 November 2019 15:10 >> To: Andrew G. Malis ; Lars Eggert >> Cc: IETF Discussion >> Subject: Re: make IPR declaration on IETF site but targeted at another SDO? >> >> I am much less sympathetic. If the company has a patent, the company needs to figure out how to disclose that. > From nobody Thu Nov 14 21:53:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090481200D7 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 21:53:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NlNE-o8O8DEa for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 21:53:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-001b2d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-001b2d01.pphosted.com [148.163.156.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05CB61200B7 for ; 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Fri, 15 Nov 2019 05:53:06 GMT Received: from b01ledav004.gho.pok.ibm.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33EFB112062 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 05:53:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from b01ledav004.gho.pok.ibm.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20343112064 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 05:53:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (unknown [9.27.200.19]) by b01ledav004.gho.pok.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 05:53:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id xAF5r4Xu007740 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 00:53:04 -0500 Received: (from narten@localhost) by rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id xAF5r4Du007668 for ietf@ietf.org; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 00:53:04 -0500 From: narten@us.ibm.com Message-Id: <201911150553.xAF5r4Du007668@rotala.raleigh.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 00:53:03 -0500 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Weekly posting summary for ietf@ietf.org User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.5 7/5/10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.95,18.0.572 definitions=2019-11-14_07:2019-11-14,2019-11-14 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=573 impostorscore=0 suspectscore=13 priorityscore=1501 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1910280000 definitions=main-1911150052 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 05:53:14 -0000 Total of 39 messages in the last 7 days. script run at: Fri 15 Nov 2019 12:53:02 AM EST Messages | Bytes | Who --------+------+--------+----------+------------------------ 15.38% | 6 | 13.43% | 69724 | moore@network-heretics.com 12.82% | 5 | 10.85% | 56312 | mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca 5.13% | 2 | 8.16% | 42393 | jason_livingood@comcast.com 2.56% | 1 | 7.23% | 37547 | kaduk@mit.edu 5.13% | 2 | 4.63% | 24014 | lear@cisco.com 5.13% | 2 | 4.47% | 23222 | john-ietf@jck.com 2.56% | 1 | 4.33% | 22506 | sullivan@isoc.org 2.56% | 1 | 3.68% | 19099 | jari.arkko@piuha.net 2.56% | 1 | 3.43% | 17797 | aaron.falk@gmail.com 2.56% | 1 | 3.35% | 17391 | mary.h.barnes@gmail.com 2.56% | 1 | 2.66% | 13798 | csp@csperkins.org 2.56% | 1 | 2.65% | 13776 | huitema@huitema.net 2.56% | 1 | 2.60% | 13489 | narten@us.ibm.com 2.56% | 1 | 2.44% | 12694 | phill@hallambaker.com 2.56% | 1 | 2.39% | 12407 | bob.hinden@gmail.com 2.56% | 1 | 2.33% | 12084 | agmalis@gmail.com 2.56% | 1 | 2.25% | 11701 | rsalz@akamai.com 2.56% | 1 | 2.25% | 11671 | cabo@tzi.org 2.56% | 1 | 2.12% | 11026 | brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com 2.56% | 1 | 2.03% | 10520 | alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com 2.56% | 1 | 1.99% | 10317 | sayrer@gmail.com 2.56% | 1 | 1.96% | 10151 | john@jck.com 2.56% | 1 | 1.95% | 10125 | carl@redhoundsoftware.com 2.56% | 1 | 1.80% | 9328 | otroan@employees.org 2.56% | 1 | 1.77% | 9204 | john@widor3.jlc.net 2.56% | 1 | 1.71% | 8869 | nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org 2.56% | 1 | 1.55% | 8050 | chair@ietf.org --------+------+--------+----------+------------------------ 100.00% | 39 |100.00% | 519215 | Total From nobody Thu Nov 14 23:56:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABB7D120115 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 23:56:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8XD69-dDehUY for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 23:56:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2457712011D for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 23:56:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.41.2] (unknown [49.77.183.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 29A6E3897C for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 02:53:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <20191.1573054128@localhost> <15BCDF05-FB13-45D2-A5DF-70618EBA1A5A@gmail.com> <9182.1573147520@localhost> <02eb79d1-1830-5830-ed95-b743f601a8de@network-heretics.com> From: Michael Richardson Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 15:56:12 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <02eb79d1-1830-5830-ed95-b743f601a8de@network-heretics.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 07:56:25 -0000 On 2019-11-13 11:25 p.m., Keith Moore wrote: > > On 11/13/19 10:07 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > >> Maybe what we need is a structure that assigns multiple reviewers for >> some projects and rubber stamps others. > > Seems like ADs already have a fair amount of discretion to ask for > multiple in-depth reviewers vs. getting minimal review.   If having a > human make such decisions isn't your idea of an appropriate > "structure", I'd be curious to know what is. > The issue is that is only so much senior security clue to go around. There is a non-trivial amount of effort for an-out-area reviewer to spin up enough understanding about what a WG is doing.  There are a lot of documents that simply allocate a new attribute from an existing registry and then use it for something.  Determining if this has a trivial or non-trivial security impact can be difficult.  If it turns out to be trivial, then we've wasted the reviewers time (opportunity cost).  If it turns out not to be trivial (and the reviewer missed that), then if we are lucky, we catch it at IESG time, and then it might be a year later. WGs are given security advisors, and most don't use them, and many of them are AWOL. From nobody Fri Nov 15 06:09:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6965212086B for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 06:08:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HmUcJU2pMKzn for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 06:08:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 728BE120013 for ; 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Fri, 15 Nov 2019 09:08:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews To: ietf@ietf.org References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <20191.1573054128@localhost> <15BCDF05-FB13-45D2-A5DF-70618EBA1A5A@gmail.com> <9182.1573147520@localhost> <02eb79d1-1830-5830-ed95-b743f601a8de@network-heretics.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <84ee7053-1dbb-bfcc-c576-c2cf115a743e@network-heretics.com> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 09:08:50 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 14:08:59 -0000 On 11/15/19 2:56 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > On 2019-11-13 11:25 p.m., Keith Moore wrote: >> On 11/13/19 10:07 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >> >>> Maybe what we need is a structure that assigns multiple reviewers for >>> some projects and rubber stamps others. >> Seems like ADs already have a fair amount of discretion to ask for >> multiple in-depth reviewers vs. getting minimal review.   If having a >> human make such decisions isn't your idea of an appropriate >> "structure", I'd be curious to know what is. >> > The issue is that is only so much senior security clue to go around. > There is a non-trivial amount of effort for an-out-area reviewer to spin > up enough understanding about what a WG is doing.  There are a lot of > documents that simply allocate a new attribute from an existing registry > and then use it for something.  Determining if this has a trivial or > non-trivial security impact can be difficult.  If it turns out to be > trivial, then we've wasted the reviewers time (opportunity cost).  If it > turns out not to be trivial (and the reviewer missed that), then if we > are lucky, we catch it at IESG time, and then it might be a year later. I don't disagree with any of the above.  And yet, I don't see how it's responding to either of the above replies. Keith From nobody Fri Nov 15 10:54:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C722120220 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 10:54:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ikC5X8AQdxuJ for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 10:54:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A437120090 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 10:54:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1573844082; bh=8BtSROILJ9O8k6e08tYdH7+xjEhVaAxo11b8RtqWHvg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=hUeKznYuyXdgIfI6/nnSlNHRr/QO/KQnS83foK/iEnzU8PcyhKsziLhrLxZCNWeXQ f+IoQbiVSZM0fZSX/QQH7BFk5NKdQg45pbXWcVoNeI4Z+jnq8SIT2mPzbhz78xYMSt 3OiLkOX3L8EU9nYtqw2K1yUHPLZIOu/zToFBq5YA= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.124] ([84.171.153.231]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N3KTy-1hmu2a19z0-010IOZ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 19:54:42 +0100 Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] To: Michael Richardson , "ietf@ietf.org" , Jari Arkko References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> <11796.1573157656@localhost> <959ECDD1-5DFF-4393-94B8-6425983866D3@akamai.com> <19231.1573175109@localhost> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 19:54:37 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19231.1573175109@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:1PNsRweMPYRvrjMbcql3WaTDEMjYax7Sgav9KwBRtjdFjLYMW71 2gF0S86oTD8wmIBOaBNv4uU8pUAOBHjMiEsopuxf1mfHr32QPat2ZIOR9gFA2l+x6i4dJCh O0dplhJ4qNNa/YE7TrLYeV02erYauLesKtVCR+wA+3DUJDT9AWqimoi6+s9uQnMIEyrZx9g zzJu83yame/n1NkkuAlMA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:pio2blmmNbs=:gCSWCdmxbSYD+oi+3OQdgq Ou95/ohfos08Apxs6suHbWrIJbw9O02UUeiYYWWij15teJlmYIMQp3Lqz8FOoU3HvUr1JpNYc ab9nF/GYZbnPYpHSTlizSKknmO8NR1nE3tV8cLkvOFY8/giXWK/SQhWZD3zuhJ/EE1xe3Y7oO lWOm6hcEp/jVY/xaUvdTTsA8wTnPGUbuLVzjp/YqIvLv+RZGDtIktXBZ/jNrzSg4xNiKjiP3t KSFMWSzWlBCApq63yW/sQIikKDW5GssUkZEHNoWN95SK9Su78QZ9ON11sz35P1UzYuAxXd3Sz KKqx2cCw1tkyr9OHHfT00falELjFptepZd3lKMfZHt60u+H3FIBWuDBKY/HFdP/KhDgv1L665 BpB+qJKe4vLBdZfAzQXUxADhpI1DaDkLyXD7BwM4ITyIWf88oc6mWmZVw79cTf2ps/MpWibD7 63EScOcCwumfLxf29XlBPdyBXhRbhhGloBcx42KcBV3edUcLmvszs1SvsEpfuObwbY/RkS/YP 9RjIZ91cF9b8vaPmuuSuTjtkZXcQJ1OnabZkfadGkeW0OHRNGQGbI5fwOjpqiMXQA/STzVHqy RDED3FbNCDTk5cQW+K2WE5CIfr0Hl89KRY++TddAf4SImNH0tOND/aai3Sz+HcFgHW2RnwNfq 7UggQgVOjtanK7MpnRUIA1OKZ0e/BItUn9heEX49ILiegbv0LTwlyRyWTbpkaElemZMOElQER vMaXaupRqm/GvtgsqmejmwBH9MVUKqcAYovuqy9VpyJmWWEpUqQLvBPfO5YFdeeNBZVsri3hA mqAcgq2Zt9hL6/VS8mxW+uNtq0Iyj5zW+R3bfa/7xzr8VTXuWn5P+rRZt+qYf/mRQoreJtIH3 7X9jg6z6NB2BuBvoKJvXtmkSztany4xOO/z7rOk2fLv04LOwBiCnKnnyLEOKM9ebhzziDqlUe XnLj9ujE2yf0h6L9T6huSAwgeB3f2G8V0wyTZ/xyeQYpWqmw8zuXEabo8AfqLhLN7GF5xxiyz yalI8K06lYFpRmieD2ojQilwF9yNt+J0KxriUZ3A7CLUUvzaZZWm7bhNpLOkmPBz/cCMocXb3 pY8lsA9LaeOR7+steXXAksQ4UiHwhFFACHXOpJUVfVLW39snzErp/Hvda59FiBcG8/uKreYUY W4YjotM1/Suh7G+0tuc3hF2/p/icGj5Ms95NiLqT6bfnI2hI6JGqDQM40ehIuUJ7NWU8tHS5m /hLQTqzfdFJYOIzng5VI/j2Cswjak64rsmhC0gpRaidAt1q//fH19Fce2JMY= Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 18:54:58 -0000 On 08.11.2019 02:05, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Salz, Rich wrote: > >> My impression from the regular plenary reports on attendance my = impression is > > that the number of people involved in the IETF is declining, yet = the number > > of RFCs being processed is going up. > > > Attendance is perhaps declining, but I don't recall any discussio= n of > > WG email traffic, for example. > > So the number we need to know is what is the trend for RFCs being proces= sed > by a set of authors who are exclusively remote. > ... Why exclusively? Best regards, Julian From nobody Fri Nov 15 17:24:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA64120862; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 17:24:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7nrJeXWC0p3T; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 17:23:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from hardie-macbookpro.roam.corp.google.com (dhcp-9799.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.151.153]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 98A8012085E; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 17:23:56 -0800 (PST) To: iab@iab.org, ietf@ietf.org, "execd@iab.org" From: Ted Hardie Subject: IAB report to the community Message-ID: <7f516417-415b-367c-f8c5-a508942c034b@iab.org> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 09:23:54 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A504B957BCD4020291FE9698" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 01:24:00 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A504B957BCD4020291FE9698 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Colleagues, Here is the IAB report for the period between IETF 105 and IETF 106.  If you have topics or issues you want to discuss by email, feel free to send your comments to architecture-discuss@iab.org (our public discussion list) or iab@iab.org (to reach just the IAB).  Questions at the open mic at the IETF 106 plenary are, of course, also welcome. The IAB has a few chartered roles. It confirms the appointments to the IESG, performs standards process oversight, and handles appeals. It also performs architectural oversight (including appointing the IRTF Chair), appoints the RFC series editor and oversight committee, manages the IETF's relationship with IANA, and handles liaisons and appointments both to ISOC and to other organizations. Here's what the IAB has been doing since our last report; more detail on many of the topics is available at https://www.iab.org. There were no appeals during this period. The IAB made one public statement during this period, calling out the unintended consequences of policy and regulatory proposals . As part of its appointments role, the IAB has filled a number of positions since our last report.   Notable among them was Adrian Farrel being re-appointed as Independent Submissions Editor for a new two-year term, beginning in February of 2020.  The IAB thanks Adrian for his continuing service. The IAB also appointed Peter Koch to the ICANN NomCom . In addition, the IAB has opened nominations for the Internet Society Board of Trustees selection .  Sean Turner, the incumbent, has now served two terms in succession and is thus not eligible for another term.  The IAB thanks him for service, and we encourage candidates to apply or to contact the IAB for more details. IAB DOCUMENTS You can always find the documents the IAB has adopted and is working on athttps://datatracker.ietf.org/stream/iab. One cluster of IAB documents are those that originally arose out of the IASA 2 effort.  Of those, the following drafts are currently are currently in the queue for publication: draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc4844-bis-05 : The RFC Series and RFC Editor draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc6220bis-04 : Defining the Role and Function of IETF Protocol Parameter Registry Operators draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc6548bis-02 : Independent Submission Editor draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc6635bis-04 : RFC Editor Model (Version 2) In addition, draft-iab-fiftyyears-01 : Fifty Years of RFCs, the RSE’s review of the RFC Series first 50 years, is in queue. A number of other drafts are in preparation or community review, and comments on these are welcome at architecture-discuss@iab.org or in comments to the IAB: draft-iab-escape-report-00 : Report from the IAB Workshop on Exploring Synergy between Content Aggregation and the Publisher Ecosystem (ESCAPE) draft-iab-for-the-users-00 : The Internet is for End Users draft-iab-protocol-maintenance-04 : The Harmful Consequences of the Robustness Principle draft-iab-rfc7500-bis-00 : Principles for Operation of Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) Registries draft-iab-use-it-or-lose-it-00 : Long-term Viability of Protocol Extension Mechanisms PROGRAMS The IAB organizes its long term work, for the most part, into programs.  There are basically two classes: management programs and architectural programs.  The former are how we handle the oversight of various things, and the latter are where we do architectural work.  The former are expected to last as long as the IAB continues to have that oversight function; the latter last until the IAB has come to a conclusion on the relevant group of topics or has decided that the topic needs to be reframed.  Programs are listed at https://www.iab.org/activities/programs/. As a general rule, each architectural program has a public mailing list, as well as a member-specific list.  For subscription instructions, see https://www.iab.org/iab-mailing-lists/. Among the management programs, RSOC is no doubt top of mind for many folks because of the RSE transition.  Among its activities were a consultation with the community on that transition and the preparation of an SOW for an interim RFC Series Project Manager.  The IAB transmitted that to the IETF LLC on October 2nd and the IETF LLC subsequently issued an RFP. WORKSHOPS There were no workshops during this period, but the workshop reports are in preparation for the Exploring Synergy between Content Aggregation and the Publisher Ecosystem (ESCAPE) workshop and the  Design Expectations vs. Deployment Reality in Protocol Development (DEDR) workshop. Respectfully submitted, Ted Hardie for the IAB --------------A504B957BCD4020291FE9698 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Dear Colleagues,


Here is the IAB report for the period between IETF 105 and IETF 106.  If you have topics or issues you want to discuss by email, feel free to send your comments to architecture-discuss@iab.org (our public discussion list) or iab@iab.org (to reach just the IAB).  Questions at the open mic at the IETF 106 plenary are, of course, also welcome.


The IAB has a few chartered roles. It confirms the appointments to the IESG, performs standards process oversight, and handles appeals. It also performs architectural oversight (including appointing the IRTF Chair), appoints the RFC series editor and oversight committee, manages the IETF's relationship with IANA, and handles liaisons and appointments both to ISOC and to other organizations. 


Here's what the IAB has been doing since our last report; more detail on many of the topics is available at https://www.iab.org.  


There were no appeals during this period.


The IAB made one public statement during this period, calling out the unintended consequences of policy and regulatory proposals.


As part of its appointments role, the IAB has filled a number of positions since our last report.   Notable among them was Adrian Farrel being re-appointed as Independent Submissions Editor for a new two-year term, beginning in February of 2020.  The IAB thanks Adrian for his continuing service.  


The IAB also appointed Peter Koch to the ICANN NomCom.


In addition, the IAB has opened nominations for the Internet Society Board of Trustees selection.  Sean Turner, the incumbent, has now served two terms in succession and is thus not eligible for another term.  The IAB thanks him for service, and we encourage candidates to apply or to contact the IAB for more details.

IAB DOCUMENTS

You can always find the documents the IAB has adopted and is working on at https://datatracker.ietf.org/stream/iab.


One cluster of IAB documents are those that originally arose out of the IASA 2 effort.  Of those, the following drafts are currently are currently in the queue for publication:  


draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc4844-bis-05: The RFC Series and RFC Editor


draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc6220bis-04: Defining the Role and Function of IETF Protocol Parameter Registry Operators


draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc6548bis-02: Independent Submission Editor 


draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc6635bis-04: RFC Editor Model (Version 2)

In addition, draft-iab-fiftyyears-01: Fifty Years of RFCs, the RSE’s review of the RFC Series first 50 years, is in queue. 

A number of other drafts are in preparation or community review, and comments on these are welcome at architecture-discuss@iab.org or in comments to the IAB:

draft-iab-escape-report-00: Report from the IAB Workshop on Exploring Synergy between Content Aggregation and the Publisher Ecosystem (ESCAPE)

draft-iab-for-the-users-00: The Internet is for End Users

draft-iab-protocol-maintenance-04: The Harmful Consequences of the Robustness Principle

draft-iab-rfc7500-bis-00: Principles for Operation of Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) Registries

draft-iab-use-it-or-lose-it-00: Long-term Viability of Protocol Extension Mechanisms

PROGRAMS

The IAB organizes its long term work, for the most part, into programs.  There are basically two classes: management programs and architectural programs.  The former are how we handle the oversight of various things, and the latter are where we do architectural work.  The former are expected to last as long as the IAB continues to have that oversight function; the latter last until the IAB has come to a conclusion on the relevant group of topics or has decided that the topic needs to be reframed.  Programs are listed at https://www.iab.org/activities/programs/. As a general rule, each architectural program has a public mailing list, as well as a member-specific list.  For subscription instructions, see https://www.iab.org/iab-mailing-lists/.


Among the management programs, RSOC is no doubt top of mind for many folks because of the RSE transition.  Among its activities were a consultation with the community on that transition and the preparation of an SOW for an interim RFC Series Project Manager.  The IAB transmitted that to the IETF LLC on October 2nd and the IETF LLC subsequently issued an RFP.

WORKSHOPS

There were no workshops during this period, but the workshop reports are in preparation for the Exploring Synergy between Content Aggregation and the Publisher Ecosystem (ESCAPE) workshop and the  Design Expectations vs. Deployment Reality in Protocol Development (DEDR) workshop.



Respectfully submitted,


Ted Hardie

for the IAB

--------------A504B957BCD4020291FE9698-- From nobody Fri Nov 15 22:40:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 428341200D5 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 22:40:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4sYKLRTzSMiD for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 22:40:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27754120033 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 22:40:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:2472:ebff:feda:c977]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05C491F451; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 06:40:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 2F919BF7; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 14:40:17 +0800 (CST) From: Michael Richardson To: Julian Reschke cc: "ietf\@ietf.org" , Jari Arkko Subject: Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate reviews] In-reply-to: References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <91686B28-9583-4A8E-AF8A-E66977B1FE13@gmail.com> <012b9437-4440-915c-f1f9-b85e1b0be768@gmail.com> <8b387d57-f056-7de3-9851-a431b17b67b4@network-heretics.com> <11796.1573157656@localhost> <959ECDD1-5DFF-4393-94B8-6425983866D3@akamai.com> <19231.1573175109@localhost> Comments: In-reply-to Julian Reschke message dated "Fri, 15 Nov 2019 19:54:37 +0100." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 14:40:17 +0800 Message-ID: <31386.1573886417@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 06:40:24 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Julian Reschke wrote: >> Salz, Rich wrote: >> My impression from the regular >> plenary reports on attendance my impression is > that the number of >> people involved in the IETF is declining, yet the number > of RFCs >> being processed is going up. >> >> > Attendance is perhaps declining, but I don't recall any discussion >> of > WG email traffic, for example. >> >> So the number we need to know is what is the trend for RFCs being >> processed by a set of authors who are exclusively remote. ... > Why exclusively? There is a belief that documents which have authors that can travel to meetings progress more easily than those that don't. A document that has at least one author "shopping" the document around the physical meeting could have five remote authors contributing. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl3PmdAACgkQlUzhVv38 QpAZXwf/UIjm/ruEsaq9kZsMrnEtBiqDODHgRVFBmLASo/dLsHWcnMF/P0mkaSBx A01sD+25fHMC6tdweyik/hdoxx6FBkzR78m/YmjHimXxwEYY2bRGpuEiZ07R71oS L8mPQDhUkG2uo4+ob/rJ12drwDKV6hT3Lv65E2j/lrhycZtjT+fWqdL2g5HTcJxu x/ihMutMkrSRpnLj2wu3KLcW4lWCN+gpaLHucMlENR956BaPOOND5UbGy3pcn/cy 9909TUEC0olnQkJSgMdXvLjAaOO14NZCyaWWW7kJg6LbxiXBNua9rkGBCUgj304B c9Ki7NjfWMPMcm/OBTQsOaqPt47iVQ== =dgvK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Nov 15 22:42:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C59131200D5 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 22:42:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.435 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CLXmhkIzcwDf for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 22:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7ED8B1200CE for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 22:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:2472:ebff:feda:c977]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DAB9D1F451; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 06:42:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id DAC81BF7; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 14:42:20 +0800 (CST) From: Michael Richardson To: Keith Moore cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews In-reply-to: <84ee7053-1dbb-bfcc-c576-c2cf115a743e@network-heretics.com> References: <157279399807.13506.13363770981495597049.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0EF64763-BA25-468A-B387-91445A61D318@gmail.com> <38E47448-63B4-4A5D-8A9D-3AB890EBDDDD@akamai.com> <09886edb-4302-b309-9eaa-f016c4487128@gmail.com> <26819.1572990657@localhost> <2668fa45-7667-51a6-7cb6-4b704c7fba5a@isode.com> <2C97D18E-3DA0-4A2D-8179-6D86EB835783@gmail.com> <20191.1573054128@localhost> <15BCDF05-FB13-45D2-A5DF-70618EBA1A5A@gmail.com> <9182.1573147520@localhost> <02eb79d1-1830-5830-ed95-b743f601a8de@network-heretics.com> <84ee7053-1dbb-bfcc-c576-c2cf115a743e@network-he retics.com> Comments: In-reply-to Keith Moore message dated "Fri, 15 Nov 2019 09:08:50 -0500." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 14:42:20 +0800 Message-ID: <31471.1573886540@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 06:42:28 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Keith Moore wrote: >> On 2019-11-13 11:25 p.m., Keith Moore wrote: >>> On 11/13/19 10:07 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >>> >>>> Maybe what we need is a structure that assigns multiple reviewers >>>> for some projects and rubber stamps others. >>> Seems like ADs already have a fair amount of discretion to ask for >>> multiple in-depth reviewers vs. getting minimal review.=C2=A0=C2=A0= If having a >>> human make such decisions isn't your idea of an appropriate >>> "structure", I'd be curious to know what is. >>> >> The issue is that is only so much senior security clue to go around. >> There is a non-trivial amount of effort for an-out-area reviewer to >> spin up enough understanding about what a WG is doing.=C2=A0 There a= re a >> lot of documents that simply allocate a new attribute from an existi= ng >> registry and then use it for something.=C2=A0 Determining if this ha= s a >> trivial or non-trivial security impact can be difficult.=C2=A0 If it= turns >> out to be trivial, then we've wasted the reviewers time (opportunity >> cost).=C2=A0 If it turns out not to be trivial (and the reviewer mis= sed >> that), then if we are lucky, we catch it at IESG time, and then it >> might be a year later. > I don't disagree with any of the above.=C2=A0 And yet, I don't see ho= w it's > responding to either of the above replies. The current system assigns the review prior to the AD determining if they need an in-depth review or not. So if we assign a senior (security) review= er to a document that didn't need in-depth senior experience, then that person is unavailable (within the quantum of review assignment period) for the AD = to assign them to do something more in-depth. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEyBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl3PmkwACgkQlUzhVv38 QpDsFgf2Kmqzc9Kpkym/i+AM//oS6d4TYRDp2OXBxdXNzVqCawAF+OgDhkWBY4WF lbCkVT8fn0yP/+FajbuHQ8UAOqHDna3O2nfzUS2j30bALxrxmjMuxTw8FWyyRrQp h+yv4xmIC/WsVUwaaSbrwrNtdZUq5nCbjeXamEupbbOTBTJNMXWKj7aCpMJ/541h d60OgAxwUOEV1rA2Q20Hfwz8U5JyLleX69PXDn0KXoG9tVbtdLBfMNQEDksFxwDr VgAlc8QN9GDBfVWuUnMssVnDyAxTwWPLYzEo2qlt2rgxLf3Yy8accj8cbB5I6RsG WNyYYHGqmjjnSkAUaOD5eIyRqIjw =fXYr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Nov 15 23:08:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6034C1200E3 for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 23:08:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WoRoevpRiiXL for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 23:08:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6B1912008D for ; Fri, 15 Nov 2019 23:08:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id xAG782Kj016369 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 16 Nov 2019 02:08:05 -0500 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 23:08:02 -0800 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Michael Richardson Cc: Keith Moore , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Message-ID: <20191116070802.GN32847@kduck.mit.edu> References: <20191.1573054128@localhost> <15BCDF05-FB13-45D2-A5DF-70618EBA1A5A@gmail.com> <9182.1573147520@localhost> <02eb79d1-1830-5830-ed95-b743f601a8de@network-heretics.com> <84ee7053-1dbb-bfcc-c576-c2cf115a743e@network-heretics.com> <31471.1573886540@dooku.sandelman.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <31471.1573886540@dooku.sandelman.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 07:08:10 -0000 On Sat, Nov 16, 2019 at 02:42:20PM +0800, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Keith Moore wrote: > >> On 2019-11-13 11:25 p.m., Keith Moore wrote: > >>> On 11/13/19 10:07 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > >>> > >>>> Maybe what we need is a structure that assigns multiple reviewers > >>>> for some projects and rubber stamps others. > >>> Seems like ADs already have a fair amount of discretion to ask for > >>> multiple in-depth reviewers vs. getting minimal review. If having a > >>> human make such decisions isn't your idea of an appropriate > >>> "structure", I'd be curious to know what is. > >>> > >> The issue is that is only so much senior security clue to go around. > >> There is a non-trivial amount of effort for an-out-area reviewer to > >> spin up enough understanding about what a WG is doing. There are a > >> lot of documents that simply allocate a new attribute from an existing > >> registry and then use it for something. Determining if this has a > >> trivial or non-trivial security impact can be difficult. If it turns > >> out to be trivial, then we've wasted the reviewers time (opportunity > >> cost). If it turns out not to be trivial (and the reviewer missed > >> that), then if we are lucky, we catch it at IESG time, and then it > >> might be a year later. > > > I don't disagree with any of the above. And yet, I don't see how it's > > responding to either of the above replies. > > The current system assigns the review prior to the AD determining if they > need an in-depth review or not. So if we assign a senior (security) reviewer > to a document that didn't need in-depth senior experience, then that person > is unavailable (within the quantum of review assignment period) for the AD to > assign them to do something more in-depth. My understanding is that most directorates have a secretary that does the assignments (secdir does, at least). By the time an AD is looking at the review next to the document it might only be a few days before the telechat where the document is up for approval, which is not really enough time to get another review in without deferring the document. Maybe we should go get that extra review and try to remove the stigma against deferring documents; I don't have a sense for how the community would feel about that. And yes, the AD should look at the directorate review when it arrives, but looking only at the review and not the document being reviewed is not always enough to tell whether additional review would be valuable. -Ben From nobody Sat Nov 16 06:36:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95ED1120164 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 06:36:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9TUZUmteGEC0 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 06:36:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2EFF12012D for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 06:36:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B2221F9F; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 09:25:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 16 Nov 2019 09:25:58 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Vzs29KMQDktPDonM4YACJkps1sTq5dXcPoNmSHsiD yg=; b=evCqmdZHnWidw1q5K77+vKoa6HzO3/Odl4drMB1r+mcaaFUtA+g/hY/cc 6ZI8c6X2yfrYdiM3iNwR8mjILmyJYQ3crBIp5S72Y+QvIXlSiHfnc7dQqRer7ZGX YpsYnOnAQhNHU6+7AA0oq5rCLK4Ni8ISuYmG1H9WQcX6XAUlWOYLeWe5eKjxRYem Bu9HbKuxw11UIiikDDN65sSYHFaaoQEDo+Yqpz/tlxOqdYhWIeNtXyRTUcMavLzq kmzDyzrtMrCQQr165RMzxLgdZNRdx2P4wwPpQMAnTm3e79RQFCPHRLrXGqt118wU nFXTTnudX1w0fYcy0UYpQkbrMXwlw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudefledggeduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihht hhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh eqnecukfhppedutdekrddvvddurddukedtrdduheenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhho mhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsth gvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id E8A14306005C; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 09:25:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews To: Benjamin Kaduk , Michael Richardson Cc: ietf@ietf.org References: <20191.1573054128@localhost> <15BCDF05-FB13-45D2-A5DF-70618EBA1A5A@gmail.com> <9182.1573147520@localhost> <02eb79d1-1830-5830-ed95-b743f601a8de@network-heretics.com> <84ee7053-1dbb-bfcc-c576-c2cf115a743e@network-heretics.com> <31471.1573886540@dooku.sandelman.ca> <20191116070802.GN32847@kduck.mit.edu> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 09:25:55 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20191116070802.GN32847@kduck.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 14:36:34 -0000 On 11/16/19 2:08 AM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > My understanding is that most directorates have a secretary that does the > assignments (secdir does, at least). By the time an AD is looking at the > review next to the document it might only be a few days before the telechat > where the document is up for approval, which is not really enough time to > get another review in without deferring the document. Maybe we should go > get that extra review and try to remove the stigma against deferring > documents; I don't have a sense for how the community would feel about > that. IMO there's always going to be some conflict between an AD doing his/her job and "what the community wants", because nobody thinks his/her own document is lowering the quality of IETF standards. So the pressure to approve documents despite serious flaws, and/or to approve documents without delay (even though some documents really do require more time to review and more eyeballs to look at them), will always be there.   There should not be a "stigma" associated with deferring documents if there's any reason at all to subject them to more scrutiny. Neither IESG nor the RSE is the source of most delays, after all; most delays are in the working groups.   And yeah, people compile stats on the IESG and the RSE to see how well they "perform" but those stats don't measure the most relevant things, like the quality of IETF's output, or the extent to which IETF standards are utilized, or the extent to which they're followed (this is a different thing), or (especially) the degree to which IETF standards meet the Internet's needs.   There's an unfortunate tendency these days to pay more attention to quantities that are easily measured, than to those that actually matter. > And yes, the AD should look at the directorate review when it arrives, but > looking only at the review and not the document being reviewed is not > always enough to tell whether additional review would be valuable. Entirely agree.   I don't think IESG should presume that directorate reviews will always be sufficient, and to do so IMO is tantamount to IESG abandoning its duty. Keith From nobody Sat Nov 16 16:29:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61AE412006E; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 16:29:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: NomCom Chair 2019 To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Reminder - NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.110.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org Message-ID: <157395057832.25816.17936262194420533432.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 16:29:38 -0800 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 00:29:38 -0000 Reminder - Community feedback for nominees is by Thursday November 21, 2019. Feedback for IAB, IESG Area Directors, IETF Trust and LLC Board. The 2019-20 Nominating Committee has collected a list of willing candidates for the positions open this cycle. You can see the list at https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2019/feedback/ You may provide feedback using the web form there; it is secure. All web feedback goes into the datatracker using asymmetric encryption, which is then decrypted by the NomCom members as they read it. Your feedback can not be seen by the secretariat, the tools people, or any of the management. Your feedback through the web form is not anonymous when shown to NomCom members as you need an IETF login to provide it. If you want to give truly anonymous feedback, please contact one of the NomCom members that you trust directly, and ask him/her to relay the feedback anonymously to the NomCom. You can also submit feedback via email to nomcom-chair-2019 at ietf.org and I will enter it in the datatracker. One email per candidate, please. Please indicate if I should share your identity with the full NomCom. Office Hours for Singapore are posted on the NomCom 2019 site. For reference the office hours are: November 18 - 21 (local Singapore timezone - SGT) Monday 18th - 09:00 - 10:00 Tuesday 19th - 09:00 - 10:00 Wednesday 20th - 09:00 - 10:00 Thursday 21st - 09:00 - 10:00 Private appointment can be made based upon request The positions to be filled and the desired expertise are also found on our NomCom 19 web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2019/ Thank you so much for your feedback - we really value it and appreciate your time taken to submit it. regards, Victor Victor Kuarsingh victor at jvknet dot com nomcom-chair-2019 at ietf dot org From nobody Sat Nov 16 17:44:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BCEB12004F; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 17:44:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: NomCom Chair 2019 To: <106attendees@ietf.org> Cc: ietf@ietf.org, ietf-announce@ietf.org Subject: Nomcom - IETF 106 In-Person Feedback and Office Hours X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.110.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org Message-ID: <157395508827.25904.16186356306763391540.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 17:44:48 -0800 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 01:44:48 -0000 Dear IETF 106 Attendees, The Nomcom team will be available to speak and take input directly from the community at the IETF106 venue for those who would to come by the Nomcom room (located in "Fullerton" and "Bonham" rooms). Team members will have the Nomcom sticker on their name tags for easy identification should you want speak to one of us in the halls as well. The Nomcom team members names can be found here - https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2019/ We have office hours setup from 9:00 AM - 10:00 AM Monday through Thursday for drop ins, or you can contact a Nomcom member and arrange another time slot if you want/need. We thank you for your time and feedback. regards, Victor Kuarsingh victor at jvknet dot com nomcom-chair-2019 at ietf dot org From nobody Sat Nov 16 18:17:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC4D120818; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 18:17:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mBO_Fb3BfA2A; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 18:17:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x42c.google.com (mail-pf1-x42c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00EE6120251; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 18:17:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x42c.google.com with SMTP id n13so8569353pff.1; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 18:17:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=JjJcLzmMfhFzdSe19pYwoW6PeCqa9bqiOymmF1wzRvw=; b=BTPv/0KNz6HximgbEaiHIBwUlZ50MECZHVE/K5j+HkgFTx/P639nrOIM/Xn9xLbWlh GAOC243z4NbiK/2fYX78K0tUX70+qNt1hCAPoFQRWHTHJeBsgpJ4X10PwZrJo2o1QhbB SiucNnNMjao8Uyb1Mx+dX/dx3cLgR5tpUpgwl8wDC8BD0ksCJASs/7OVPCMJKZKr6u3B xYA5Jl/jNBKH+Ag6iKQbdAoytYi8pAPzVaxvzql0VEM8PqzIlw4DBPspr8MDItWT778c 5SaDnDvt255k4BDyXYgQ0UKnp8SUcZB/vkaMMVDX3KZcvrldBtLNuz8nX5ur0EUJV5oZ 7Ccw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=JjJcLzmMfhFzdSe19pYwoW6PeCqa9bqiOymmF1wzRvw=; b=X9/ryfrAFbfxOzlNZOmcUyP8L89jWZv/vfslRy06U7nQ0syyqVtmjWRwKjNEkIUkaa OhhJlDGgKwV8a5MJag+s2qmMngmyozjPERVaMlARjsjJlZxGGaQjEQgqbFDVgzly6yXg OZcpfXSosr54DgIUpunsI/sy3euZ6O1xcqOL6b/7/xE0r4CSci5gmtzpKF1C8LGYa9SO YU+s9wjLtm4ZQHYbW3H5slFckYk1KkYezxSvdStVbNvRBCSXOHVycu3xPdo5mfSQoeu/ uGAd/8wugd+XUMz0ldp14J/H8lu5UyDW1YoWgtvtH+9WBTeLoB4QQ0mwZhdMVNNVe1/k foBQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUdlr+AdcPuFkcaRPxcSBthRevZsbUOIf5x/Bz4K9/rZ8VKtqte 3+5hjra5PUWjG8x/0pVHb4U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxfrcu87MXdXsWOxJrMkicvN+OR2RQAQnKwp0j7jJWJjgPz4et9RHUT/o9l0h7BEFVl7Kelig== X-Received: by 2002:a63:1001:: with SMTP id f1mr25022424pgl.373.1573957028279; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 18:17:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [31.133.130.252] ([2001:67c:370:128:b958:9514:f0ec:edae]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y3sm14905193pgl.78.2019.11.16.18.17.06 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 16 Nov 2019 18:17:07 -0800 (PST) From: "Aaron Falk" To: "IRTF Discuss" , "IETF WG Chairs" , "IETF Discussion" , "106 attendees" <106attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: Let's have some fun: PechaKucha & friends Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 10:17:05 +0800 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13r5655) Message-ID: <93C85F33-54A6-4AC6-B251-C3234140E2E9@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_204760CB-29C7-4402-9CD1-6ABD86AC51D0_=" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 02:17:11 -0000 --=_MailMate_204760CB-29C7-4402-9CD1-6ABD86AC51D0_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed; markup=markdown Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Four talks proposed to date. Would love to see a few more presenters. On 13 Nov 2019, at 3:43, Aaron Falk wrote: > Still looking for a few more presenters for next Thursday night... > > This is a call for participation in a social event around satirical = > short talks. (There is usually beer involved.) In the past, talks = > needed to fit the PechaKucha format but it is rather strict (20 = > slides, each on screen for 20 seconds, minimal text). So, I=E2=80=99d = like = > to repeat the experiment we tried in Montreal. Any talk format will = > be allowed (including PK) with a maximum length of 7 minutes. As = > before, the topics are encouraged to be a IETF-related and satirical = > or controversial in some way, although not mean-spirited. Anyone can = > participate in this unofficial social event. > > Date: Thursday evening (November 21) starting at 9:30pm in Sophia. > > If you haven=E2=80=99t been to one of these events, Here are two of my = > personal favorites from prior IETFs by = > [Pete](http://bapk-videos.mamadrum.net/old/IETF-099-Prague-videos/07-pe= te-resnick-8.mp4) = > and = > [Brian](http://bapk-videos.mamadrum.net/old/IETF-099-Prague-videos/IETF= -096-Berlin-videos/2_trammel-8.mp4). = > Video from the past BA PKs can be found = > [here](http://bapk-videos.mamadrum.net). > > If you want to do a pechakucha, there are lots of online tutorials and = > suggestions for how to make a good PechaKucha. Here are a few: = > [[1](http://www.pechakucha.org/)], = > [[2](http://blog.indezine.com/2012/05/10-tips-to-create-and-present-pec= ha.html)], = > [[3](https://catherinecronin.wordpress.com/2012/06/13/pecha-kucha/)]. > > As my friend Spencer says: =E2=80=9CMake good decisions, People!=E2=80=9D= > > Format Details: > > * Presentation slots are open to all, assigned first come, first = > served. > * To reserve a presentation slot, send a name and title to = > aaron.falk@gmail.com and receive confirmation. > * Presenters must agree to limit their talks to less than 7 minutes = > (strictly enforced using the Lars Eggert Approach). > * Slides are due Thursday 6pm in Powerpoint or PDF. --=_MailMate_204760CB-29C7-4402-9CD1-6ABD86AC51D0_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Four talks proposed to date. Would love to see a few mor= e presenters.

On 13 Nov 2019, at 3:43, Aaron Falk wrote:

Still looking for a few more presenters for next Thursday= night...

This is a call for participation in a social event around= satirical short talks. (There is usually beer involved.) In the past, = talks needed to fit the PechaKucha format but it is rather strict (20 sli= des, each on screen for 20 seconds, minimal text). So, I=E2=80=99d like = to repeat the experiment we tried in Montreal. Any talk format will be a= llowed (including PK) with a maximum length of 7 minutes. As before, the= topics are encouraged to be a IETF-related and satirical or controversia= l in some way, although not mean-spirited. Anyone can participate in thi= s unofficial social event.

Date: Thursday evening (November 21) starting at 9:30pm i= n Sophia.

If you haven=E2=80=99t been to one of these events, Here = are two of my personal favorites from prior IETFs by Pete and Brian. Video from the past BA PKs can be found here.<= /p>

If you want to do a pechakucha, there are lots of online = tutorials and suggestions for how to make a good PechaKucha. Here are a = few: [1],= [2], [3]= =2E

As my friend Spencer says: =E2=80=9CMake good decisions, = People!=E2=80=9D

Format Details:

  • Presentation slots are open to all, assigned first come, first served= =2E
  • To reserve a presentation slot, send a name and title to aaron.falk@gmail.com= and receive confirmation.
  • Presenters must agree to limit their talks to less than 7 minutes (st= rictly enforced using the Lars Eggert Approach).
  • Slides are due Thursday 6pm in Powerpoint or PDF.
--=_MailMate_204760CB-29C7-4402-9CD1-6ABD86AC51D0_=-- From nobody Sat Nov 16 18:58:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82AF01200F1 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 18:58:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iAwc0DTrV8ze for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 18:58:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29416120058 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 18:58:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:2472:ebff:feda:c977]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9E1A1F451 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 02:58:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 2C696109F; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 10:58:43 +0800 (CST) From: Michael Richardson To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews In-reply-to: <20191116070802.GN32847@kduck.mit.edu> References: <20191.1573054128@localhost> <15BCDF05-FB13-45D2-A5DF-70618EBA1A5A@gmail.com> <9182.1573147520@localhost> <02eb79d1-1830-5830-ed95-b743f601a8de@network-heretics.com> <84ee7053-1dbb-bfcc-c576-c2cf115a743e@network-heretics.com> <31471.1573886540@dooku.sandelman.ca> <20191116070802.GN32847@kduck.mit.edu> Comments: In-reply-to Benjamin Kaduk message dated "Fri, 15 Nov 2019 23:08:02 -0800." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 10:58:43 +0800 Message-ID: <10449.1573959523@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 02:58:48 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >> Keith Moore wrote: >> On 2019-11-13 11:= 25 >> p.m., Keith Moore wrote: >>> On 11/13/19 10:07 AM, Phillip >> Hallam-Baker wrote: >> >>>> Maybe what we need is a structure that assigns multiple reviewe= rs >> >>>> for some projects and rubber stamps others. >>> Seems like ADs >> already have a fair amount of discretion to ask for >>> multiple >> in-depth reviewers vs. getting minimal review.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If having= a >>> human >> make such decisions isn't your idea of an appropriate >>> "structure= ", >> I'd be curious to know what is. >> >> The issue is that is only so much senior security clue to go >> around. >> There is a non-trivial amount of effort for an-out-area >> reviewer to >> spin up enough understanding about what a WG is doing= .=C2=A0 >> There are a >> lot of documents that simply allocate a new attribute >> from an existing >> registry and then use it for something.=C2=A0 >> Determining if this has a >> trivial or non-trivial security impact >> can be difficult.=C2=A0 If it turns >> out to be trivial, then we've= wasted >> the reviewers time (opportunity >> cost).=C2=A0 If it turns out not = to be >> trivial (and the reviewer missed >> that), then if we are lucky, we >> catch it at IESG time, and then it >> might be a year later. >> >> > I don't disagree with any of the above.=C2=A0 And yet, I don't see= how >> it's > responding to either of the above replies. >> >> The current system assigns the review prior to the AD determining if >> they need an in-depth review or not. So if we assign a senior >> (security) reviewer to a document that didn't need in-depth senior >> experience, then that person is unavailable (within the quantum of >> review assignment period) for the AD to assign them to do something >> more in-depth. > My understanding is that most directorates have a secretary that does > the assignments (secdir does, at least). yes, that's my understanding. I'd like to see more coordination between ADs (particularly Sec-ADs) and directorates so that the security review process can occur earlier, and so that any loop with the SecADs can happen earlier. In the case of draft-ietf-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra, I'd have liked to g= et more attention from Christian,Jari and Russ (reviewers) and the various ADs earlier. The significant reviews were done a year ago, and we are just finishing now. That's a big investment of time among the 6 or 7 people involved. > By the time an AD is looking > at the review next to the document it might only be a few days before > the telechat where the document is up for approval, which is not real= ly > enough time to get another review in without deferring the document. It seems that we doing these early secdir reviews, but someone this is not feeding up to the ADs well enough, who then do their own review. That's ju= st not leveraging the secdir well. > Maybe we should go get that extra review and try to remove the stigma > against deferring documents; I don't have a sense for how the communi= ty > would feel about that. I'm okay with this, but maybe the sponsoring AD and WG chairs need to be mo= re active in chasing down reviewers. Again, I'd like more offocial acknowledgement of the work reviewers do. > And yes, the AD should look at the directorate review when it arrives, > but looking only at the review and not the document being reviewed is > not always enough to tell whether additional review would be valuable. Agreed. What if the Shepherd write up was had more ways to flag things? =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl3Qt2IACgkQlUzhVv38 QpCV5Qf9GYKEAA98aoYvgt08VenzmlQj1pHpkq85wMaaHEj7I5V/+pAirJhUZtxA dxNjexU5sgVYVHPe6XgqFwVvjukOebRsRg6xQ1sgOXu6rWfh44TZCtIICqOuI8J3 Ky0PdWBdKMTomePJBbbUoI55pIoFw14Yzu+zEzXeiJIJPL5/r4hIahzw3WJWkmeu Vizki69sA08IPkHykLBYDobrEmZHYUBcSBHXTyhocnTBPKVTl+MBvd2D0srBl5DZ fB+ePJJgwUEYc35cyNo8ZjZyAKUN006aGxp2kajfCrK4x3qss3aygrabMKa6tZ4I oPmPKp3gItMDTpANNjptWGF8LG8VxA== =Vyk6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sat Nov 16 22:04:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3176B120088 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 22:04:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id acJZFohfE_QJ for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 22:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x431.google.com (mail-wr1-x431.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::431]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F220A12007C for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 22:04:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x431.google.com with SMTP id n1so15638668wra.10 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 22:04:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=Kf9A936Wt2BIP3ZTSpFxaAdDjGilpUpGIzN3YXXARXE=; b=lVkqrzWmJBVbyHKdacXpeAzFgKeQSpyNmmuuK9sbSynjWOiaQs88jAXGh5AgQMWXQq 37r5D4jL92fRQnOrDW/O1svF+zg5Ykx2F7diwFXNqUX4GBHEh7g2hRWvb98I/irMvjaH uePYVFy8aEu7SmhFsokNSp8+4cnllp7l4Nzzpk6hntRU6iwrYk68EKQUvgzmMloAvfCA GZxYkIsOg2mDAc8xP8aUdt1sZmljVSbmDYPqnoW/3s7UfwpXVmP0si3wk4FSXl59+tff XNx6vMBaOYKQGHeYDrpyj0bggNOQB+dYIxKl7WtB7Qj3112YVUx0lrWhvkjwKIkJKZp4 AzSQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=Kf9A936Wt2BIP3ZTSpFxaAdDjGilpUpGIzN3YXXARXE=; b=P3jo16XFe9lsm9/lEPt6xARkI1VbYrxY6Zp8a3RzaAuMr1wI2v709qboNP0I0gjXDK NcCcusO9ZetPVL5NE1CiksapCaTLutS5HbSWeG9kGkUpJZqW5OYXLh2nuLhH1hBi2gD/ qLK0vPCXWhu5NrcK2aCrJJb4bO0D1rBtxxHvj+g8FD13ZH8xF13kxI4Wnb/MHbwGz9o2 C4c3LlZEU8QRBjRQ4G0CTqlOdxZBmLYzkoI+fCHMje65EVGJNLYLzCTksAiQUoCTlu6t 33HwQE73Xi1wFEInTqau7p0YvoUV2kzJJfqhxr6LorfDz7OSzCczrdGcUCJK3yM0ZDFh OJQg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXZinTmsd8rCgJloJGGisAGMqsjtkBTUW/0zLxDpXGpEoQ2Ajmp 9y+a/azeXYXepz8hJ13npwlNffVKDd8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy8f7H43IHGuqZD/Ni0kDauk1sMvyFobavZ75eet8TnKFr7t5SUOfl5oc9D0tJ6g/Qs6Sy7xw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:1206:: with SMTP id e6mr23645684wrx.113.1573970667134; Sat, 16 Nov 2019 22:04:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:1232:144:a54b:f02e:72ab:890e? ([2001:67c:1232:144:a54b:f02e:72ab:890e]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a8sm15696975wme.11.2019.11.16.22.04.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 16 Nov 2019 22:04:26 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <3BF24C82-46FE-4ABA-8D16-77E201A0747E@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_504C2AFD-8C83-4F46-9D63-B8B65EB58F12"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: Cisco to Host IETF 109 in Bangkok! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 14:04:19 +0800 In-Reply-To: <157396446085.22281.18349111080077772149.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Cc: Bob Hinden To: IETF References: <157396446085.22281.18349111080077772149.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 06:04:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_504C2AFD-8C83-4F46-9D63-B8B65EB58F12 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 My thanks to Cisco for their continued support of the IETF! Bob > On Nov 17, 2019, at 12:21 PM, IETF Administration LLC Executive = Director wrote: >=20 > The IETF Administration LLC is pleased to announce that Cisco will = Host IETF 109 in Bangkok, Thailand. The meeting will be at the Marriott = Marquis Queen=E2=80=99s Park, November 14-20, 2020. >=20 > Through its IETF Multi-Year Hosting Support Agreement, Cisco has = hosted IETF 91 Honolulu in 2014, IETF 100 Singapore in 2017, co-hosted = IETF 103 Bangkok in 2018, and co-hosted IETF 104 Prague in 2019. Cisco = also hosted IETF 83 Paris in 2012 prior to the agreement. In addition, = Cisco has generously agreed to replace the IETF meeting network = equipment every three years. >=20 > We thank Cisco for their long term and valued support of IETF! >=20 > Sponsorship opportunities for IETF 109 and other upcoming IETF = meetings are still available as listed below. 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dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cloudflare.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QhuFvLQGvHTK for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 00:42:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua1-x92e.google.com (mail-ua1-x92e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::92e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28FD71200D8 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 00:42:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua1-x92e.google.com with SMTP id a13so4299614uaq.0 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 00:42:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cloudflare.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dUN5K/uWPEaYwQ0C2Gv22N7PUts4dL6dLISFDz4bp6I=; b=dPWOF9qDo4cEg8McBidZKVAAP2P1l2btfuItYgdgGmwK/zfZHzlTzIH/LqL8BvwCBB O5XxO1f/iX7yth2udycVCf9X+etmW0KwRf9CH0LGm5H0aBda5TDdfJBLneRidF5Ks/Tw OairEOc+y+JYoROQivn9/mN0lxgTPjSml31qA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dUN5K/uWPEaYwQ0C2Gv22N7PUts4dL6dLISFDz4bp6I=; b=JJcQxzmZuk4A/mNrBSgUuDH45tI0PCjqK4ZKtLWjpApGsYjGA8BskHaZNGXeOdUPT3 nki2SotVoFVQ5EYXRm3+yCLAg2dxtSn+mlhHLQ74svOyP8OWeKNaxQnfEkI3JMG5m0bH RBXtqz+wVXBQBH8J7B8tzi6Wp+jKqNZ3EjfjL0donCaYe0klMjlwmyWMivqfS6m4LJQp sRtuT3efVIth/deH3QXdj02oH+oHNz1wD4NcKgG4L6BAqVIB7I+XnmQRau+X402a9GUB +pav6ioqsYH+XQYSvSDB2U3ER3JOuvtuJ7QK2OHkCndzZnmM9dsixhSqdjzUr+twyWPm RqNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV+EaJ6pTbbj+KDNRkDKXZyCBTAl3W0DoOa60NyEhfqhg+B3jBO qM+NK7tK07Xqh5MUu1MFj3RFHoUzzPIgcT5c3k8tXi1rMZLyAokj X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwAtVGIzxxRFGHgqsJBKbwabVRWMe2v1BQxqRc2wtyU/4svgIdeM9r1iRvAKYTk+BOAmZyqRnNk64KaBXbhtZk= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:1431:: with SMTP id b46mr4933191uae.52.1573980141776; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 00:42:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156330717256.15259.2193942101748847069@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Nick Sullivan Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 16:42:05 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-tls-exported-authenticator-09 To: Yaron Sheffer Cc: secdir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-tls-exported-authenticator.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, "" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003c30ec059786cf1e" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 08:42:28 -0000 --0000000000003c30ec059786cf1e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Yaron, Thanks for reminding me about the codepoint issue. It's a sticky one. As far as I see it, there are three options: a) Change the document to UPDATE RFC 8446 This feels like a heavyweight option and may complicate things since it will mean that SNI is allowed but undefined for CertificateVerify in the TLS handshake. b) Ask for a new extension point for SNI sent in a client-generated authenticator request. This has the downside of not scaling to future client hello extensions that could be useful in exported authenticator requests -- it forces the definition of a new code point for each new extension. c) Explicitly state that the CertificateRequest-like construction in client-generated exported authenticator requests is a new type of message (analogous to a ClientHello) and clarify the rules about which extensions can be used when it is client-generated (specifically, say that any extension supported in CH is allowed) This is my preferred solution. I'm interested to hear what the working group thinks, and I'll happily present the options at IETF 106 if there's time. Best, Nick On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 6:20 PM Yaron Sheffer wrote: > Hi Nick, > > > > Apologies for not responding on time. > > > > I may be missing some follow-on discussions, but: > > > > - Ben suggested that we mention that QUIC is also an option, even if > informatively, in addition to the =E2=80=9CSHOULD use TLS=E2=80=9D sta= tement. > - I think we left my question re: back-fitting this protocol into the > IANA TLS registry open. Quoting: > > > > YS: 7.1: this is changing TLS 1.3 by allowing this extension in Cert > Request! I think it's a really bad idea. Better to hack special support t= o > existing libraries, allowing this specific extension for this special cas= e, > than to change the base protocol. Otherwise, this document should UPDATE > 8446. > > > > NS: This is a good point and one that we struggled a bit with during > design. We needed to allow SNI in the CertificateRequest message because = it > can be client-generated in this context. I'd be ok with creating a > different extension for this, but it's rather elegant to re-use it in thi= s > context. *I'd like to hear some opinions from the working group* on this > point > > > > BK: Or, since extension codepoints are cheap, just use a new codepoint. > > > > Thanks, > > Yaron > > > > *From: *Nick Sullivan > *Date: *Monday, November 4, 2019 at 04:49 > *To: *Yaron Sheffer > *Cc: *, < > draft-ietf-tls-exported-authenticator.all@ietf.org>, , "< > tls@ietf.org>" > *Subject: *Re: Secdir last call review of > draft-ietf-tls-exported-authenticator-09 > > > > Following up, > > > > Yaron, do the responses by myself and Benjamin along with the does the > following PR sufficiently address your comments/concerns? > > > > https://github.com/tlswg/tls-exported-authenticator/pull/52 > > > > On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 4:55 PM Nick Sullivan wrote= : > > Hi Yaron, > > > > Thank you for your thorough review. My answers will be inline, and I'll > incorporate some of Ben's replies if necessary. Here's a PR with proposed > changes in response to your comments: > > https://github.com/tlswg/tls-exported-authenticator/pull/52 > > > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 12:59 PM Yaron Sheffer via Datatracker < > noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > > Reviewer: Yaron Sheffer > Review result: Has Issues > > The document is generally clear in both its motivation and the proposed > solution. > > I think it's playing a bit too liberal with TLS 1.3, in sort-of but not > quite > deprecating renegotiation, and in changing the IANA registry in a way tha= t > actually changes the protocol. Details below. > > Other comments: > > * Abstract: please reword to make it clear that it's the proof (not the > cert) > that is portable. > > > > Proposed text here: > > This document describes a mechanism in Transport Layer Security (TLS) for > peers to > provide a proof of ownership of a certificate. This proof can be exporte= d > by one peer, transmitted out-of-band to the other peer, and verified by > the receiving peer. > > > > * Introduction: TLS 1.3 post-handshake auth "has the > disadvantage of requiring additional state to be stored as part of the TL= S > state machine." Why is that an issue is practice, assuming this feature i= s > already supported by TLS libraries? Also, are we in effect deprecating > this TLS > 1.3 feature because of the security issue of the mismatched record > boundaries? > > > > My understanding is that post-handshake authentication as defined in the > TLS 1.3 RFC is not implemented in many (any?) TLS 1.3 libraries and some > implementors would prefer to use exported authenticators. > > > > * "For simplicity, the mechanisms... require", maybe a normative REQUIRE? > > I'm fine with this. > > > > * Authenticator Request: please clarify that we use the TLS 1.3 format > even when > running on TLS 1.2. > > Updated, though it might be a bit unnecessary. > > > > * Also, I suggest to change "is not encrypted with a > handshake key" which is too specific to "is sent unencrypted within the > normal > TLS-protected data". > > This specific text is meant to differentiate the wire format of this > message from that of the CertificateRequest message, which is encrypted > with the handshake key. The specificity is warranted. > > > > * Before diving into the detailed messages in Sec. 3, it > would be nice to include a quick overview of the message sequence. > > There are two message types and three potential sequences. I've added a > short overview. > > > > * Sec. 3: > "SHOULD use TLS", change to MUST. There's no way it can work otherwise > anyway. > > As Ben noted, this could be any secure channel with equivalent security t= o > TLS, such as QUIC. We shouldn't forbid other secure out-of-band mechanism= s. > > > > * "This message reuses the structure to the CertificateRequest message" - > repeats the preceding paragraph. > > Fixed > > > > * Sec. 4: again, SHOULD use TLS -> MUST. > > Again, I don't see the need for a MUST here. > > > > * Is > there a requirement for all protocol messages to be sent over a single TL= S > connection? If so, please mention it. Certainly this is true for the > Authenticator message that must be sent over a single connection and > cannot be > multiplexed by the high-level protocol. I think this protocol actually > assumes > "nice" transport properties (no message reorder, reliability) that also > require > a single, clean TLS connection. > > There is no such requirement. Message ordering is managed by the > application layer protocol that utilizes exported authenticators. > > > > * Why no authenticator request for servers? > Don't we care about replay? OTOH if the client wants to detect replays, i= t > would need to keep state on received authenticators, which would be very > messy. > > I'm not sure I understand. It's possible to use authenticator requests fo= r > servers. > > > > * 4.1: when referencing Exporters, mention this is Sec. 7.5 of [TLS1.3]. > > Added "Sec. 7.5" > > > > * The > discussion of Extended Master Secret only applies to TLS 1.2 - please > clarify > that, plus I suggest to reword this paragraph which I find hard to parse. > > re-worded > > > > * > 4.2: "the extensions are chosen from the TLS handshake." - What does it > mean > exactly, and how does an application even know which extensions were used > at > the TLS layer? Reading further, we mention "ClientHello extensions." Mayb= e > the > authenticator should also include a ClientHello message to indicate > supported > extensions. Assuming we can peek into ClientHello contradicts the hopeful > "even > if it is possible to implement it at the application layer" in Sec. 6. > > > > This could be clearer. Effectively, the Certificate message in the > Authenticator needs > > to be constructed in a similar manner to how a Certificate message would > be created > > in a TLS handshake. Namely, it can only contain extensions that were > present in either > > the client hello or a preceding CertificateRequest. > > > > You're right that this makes an assumption that the party creating the > Authenticator > > has access to the TLS handshake state. This implies that even if the > Authenticator > > is created in the application space, an additional API needs to be expose= d > to share > > that information. > > > > * 4.2.1: > the first sentence of the section is incomplete. > > > > Fixed > > > > * Can I use TLS 1.3-specific > extensions (oid_filters) if I'm running on a TLS 1.2 connection? Is there= a > situation where a certificate is acceptable for TLS 1.3 connections but > not for > TLS 1.2 connections? > > Yes TLS 1.3-specific extensions are allowed, the CertificateRequest > message is TLS 1.3-compatible. > > > > * "using a value derived from the connection secrets" - I > think we should recommend a specific construction here to ensure people d= o > it > securely. > > This was a suggestion from the Additional Certificates use case ( > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bishop-httpbis-http2-additional-certs-0= 5). > I'm not sure we should get into the details here. > > > > * 4.2.3: Are we computing HMAC(MAC-key, Hash(a || b || c || d))? If > so, please say so. > > Yes, I'll put that in. > > > > * 4.2.4: "a constant-time comparison" - why is it actually > required, what is the threat? An attacker can do very little because each > authenticator being sent is different. > > As Ben noted, this was a safety note added during review. > > > > * 5: please say explicitly which > messages are used in this case to construct the authenticator. > > > > Re-written. > > * 6.1: the > "MUST" is strange in a section that's only supposed to be informative. > Also, > the library may provide this extension (and possibly others) without > requiring > it as input. > > How else do you propose wording the requirement that this API fail if the > connection doesn't support EAs? > > > > * 6.4: "The API MUST return a failure if the > certificate_request_context of the authenticator was used in a previously > validated authenticator." Are we requiring the library to keep previous > contexts for replay protection? If so, please make it explicit. > > I think this can be a SHOULD based on the burden replay protection places > on the implementation. > > > > * 7.1: this is > changing TLS 1.3 by allowing this extension in Cert Request! I think it's= a > really bad idea. Better to hack special support to existing libraries, > allowing > this specific extension for this special case, than to change the base > protocol. Otherwise, this document should UPDATE 8446. > > > > This is a good point and one that we struggled a bit with during design. > We needed to allow SNI in the CertificateRequest message because it can b= e > client-generated in this context. I'd be ok with creating a different > extension for this, but it's rather elegant to re-use it in this context.= *I'd > like to hear some opinions from the working group* on this point > > > > * 8: I think the > Security Considerations is the right place to talk about interaction > between > this protocol and TLS 1.3 (or 1.2) renegotiation. Even if we simply > RECOMMEND > not to do it. Or else explain the use cases where renegotiation is still > useful > if there are any. > > > > I'm not sure this document should be prescriptive about use cases. This > doc is providing a new capability that may be leveraged at the applicatio= n > to replace the functionality of existing mechanisms, but I'm not convince= d > the evaluation of the trade-offs of different mechanisms should be > contained in this document. > > --0000000000003c30ec059786cf1e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Yaron,

Thanks for remindi= ng me about the codepoint issue. It's a sticky one.

As far as I see it, there are three options:

a) Change the document to UPDATE RFC 8446
This feels like a heav= yweight option and may complicate things since it will mean that SNI is all= owed but undefined for CertificateVerify in the TLS handshake.
b) Ask for a new extension point for SNI sent in a client-gene= rated authenticator request.
This has the downside of not scaling= to future client hello extensions that could be useful in exported authent= icator requests -- it forces the definition of a new code point for each ne= w extension.

c) Explicitly state that the Certific= ateRequest-like construction in client-generated exported authenticator req= uests is a new type of message (analogous to a ClientHello) and clarify the= rules about which extensions can be used when it is client-generated (spec= ifically, say that any extension supported in CH is allowed)
= This is my preferred solution.

I'm interested = to hear what the working group=C2=A0thinks, and I'll happily present th= e options=C2=A0at IETF 106 if there's time.

Be= st,
Nick

On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 6:20 PM Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
<= /div>
=

Hi Nick,

=C2=A0

Apologies for not responding on time.

=C2=A0

= I may be missing some follow-on discussions, but:

=C2=A0

  • Ben suggested that we mention that QUIC is also an option,= even if informatively, in addition to the =E2=80=9CSHOULD use TLS=E2=80=9D= statement.
  • I think we left my question re: bac= k-fitting this protocol into the IANA TLS registry open. Quoting:

=C2=A0

YS: 7.1: this is changing TLS 1.3 by allowing this extension in C= ert Request! I think it's a really bad idea. Better to hack special sup= port to existing libraries, allowing this specific extension for this speci= al case, than to change the base protocol. Otherwise, this document should = UPDATE 8446.

=C2=A0

NS: This is a good point and one that we struggled= a bit with during design. We needed to allow SNI in the CertificateRequest= message because it can be client-generated in this context. I'd be ok = with creating a different extension for this, but it's rather elegant t= o re-use it in this context. *I'd like to hear some opinions from the w= orking group* on this point

= =C2=A0

BK: Or, since extension codepoints = are cheap, just use a new codepoint.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron

=C2=A0

Following up= ,

<= u>=C2=A0

On Wed, Sep 18, 201= 9 at 4:55 PM Nick Sullivan <nick@cloudflare.com> wrote:

Hi=C2=A0Yaron,=

=C2=A0

Thank you for your thorough review. My answers will be inlin= e, and I'll incorporate=C2=A0some of Ben's replies if necessary. He= re's a PR with proposed changes in response to your comments:=

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 12:59 PM Yaron Sheffer via Datatracker &l= t;noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

Reviewer: Yaron Sheffer
Review result: Has Issues

The docu= ment is generally clear in both its motivation and the proposed
solution= .

I think it's playing a bit too liberal with TLS 1.3, in sort-o= f but not quite
deprecating renegotiation, and in changing the IANA regi= stry in a way that
actually changes the protocol. Details below.

= Other comments:

* Abstract: please reword to make it clear that it&#= 39;s the proof (not the cert)
that is portable.

<= div>

=C2=A0

* Introduction: TLS 1.3 post-handshake auth &q= uot;has the
disadvantage of requiring additional state to be stored as p= art of the TLS
state machine." Why is that an issue is practice, as= suming this feature is
already supported by TLS libraries? Also, are we = in effect deprecating this TLS
1.3 feature because of the security issue= of the mismatched record boundaries?

<= blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;bo= rder-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.= 8pt;margin-right:0in">

* "For simplicity, the me= chanisms... require", maybe a normative REQUIRE?

I'm fine with this.<= /p>

=C2=A0

* Authenticator Request: please clari= fy that we use the TLS 1.3 format even when
running on TLS 1.2.

* Also, I suggest to change "is not encrypted with a
handshake= key" which is too specific to "is sent unencrypted within the no= rmal
TLS-protected data".

* Before diving into the detailed me= ssages in Sec. 3, it
would be nice to include a quick overview of the me= ssage sequence.

T= here are two message types and three potential sequences. I've added a = short overview.

=C2=A0

* Sec. = 3:
"SHOULD use TLS", change to MUST. There's no way it can= work otherwise anyway.

As Ben noted, this could be any secure channel with equivalent secur= ity to TLS, such as QUIC. We shouldn't forbid other secure out-of-band = mechanisms.

=C2=A0

* "Thi= s message reuses the structure to the CertificateRequest message" -repeats the preceding paragraph.

Fixed

= =C2=A0

* Sec. 4: again, SHOULD use TLS -> MUST.

=

Again, I don't see the need for a MUST here= .

=C2=A0

* Is
there a requi= rement for all protocol messages to be sent over a single TLS
connection= ? If so, please mention it. Certainly this is true for the
Authenticator= message that must be sent over a single connection and cannot be
multip= lexed by the high-level protocol. I think this protocol actually assumes"nice" transport properties (no message reorder, reliability) th= at also require
a single, clean TLS connection.

There is no such requirement. Message ord= ering is managed by the application layer protocol that utilizes exported a= uthenticators.

=C2=A0=

* Why no= authenticator request for servers?
Don't we care about replay? OTOH= if the client wants to detect replays, it
would need to keep state on r= eceived authenticators, which would be very messy.

I'm not sure I understand. It's p= ossible to use authenticator requests for servers.

<= div>

=C2=A0

* 4.1: when referencing Exporters, mention thi= s is Sec. 7.5 of [TLS1.3].

* The
discussion of Extended Master Secret only appl= ies to TLS 1.2 - please clarify
that, plus I suggest to reword this para= graph which I find hard to parse.

*
4.2: "the extensions are chosen from the TLS handshake."= - What does it mean
exactly, and how does an application even know whic= h extensions were used at
the TLS layer? Reading further, we mention &qu= ot;ClientHello extensions." Maybe the
authenticator should also inc= lude a ClientHello message to indicate supported
extensions. Assuming we= can peek into ClientHello contradicts the hopeful "even
if it is p= ossible to implement it at the application layer" in Sec. 6.=

* 4.2.1:
the first sentence of the= section is incomplete.

=C2=A0

Fixed

=C2=A0

* Can I use TLS 1.3-specifi= c
extensions (oid_filters) if I'm running on a TLS 1.2 connection? I= s there a
situation where a certificate is acceptable for TLS 1.3 connec= tions but not for
TLS 1.2 connections?

Yes TLS 1.3-specific extensions are allowed, the C= ertificateRequest message is TLS 1.3-compatible.

=C2=A0

* "using a value derived from the connection= secrets" - I
think we should recommend a specific construction her= e to ensure people do it
securely.

=C2=A0

* 4.2.3: Are we computing HMAC(MAC-key, Hash(a || b || c || d))? If
s= o, please say so.

Yes, I'll put that in.

=C2=A0

* 4.2.4: "a constant-time comparison" - why is it actuallyrequired, what is the threat? An attacker can do very little because each=
authenticator being sent is different.

As Ben noted, this was a safety note added during= review.

=C2=A0

* 5: please sa= y explicitly which
messages are used in this case to construct the authe= nticator.

= =C2=A0

Re-written.=C2=A0=

* 6.1: the"MUST" is strange in a section that's only supposed to be i= nformative. Also,
the library may provide this extension (and possibly o= thers) without requiring
it as input.

How else do you propose wording the requirement tha= t this API fail if the connection doesn't support EAs?

=C2=A0

* 6.4: "The API MUST return a fail= ure if the
certificate_request_context of the authenticator was used in = a previously
validated authenticator." Are we requiring the library= to keep previous
contexts for replay protection? If so, please make it = explicit.

I think= this can be a SHOULD based on the burden replay protection places on the i= mplementation.=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

*= =C2=A0 7.1: this is
changing TLS 1.3 by allowing this extension in Cert = Request! I think it's a
really bad idea. Better to hack special supp= ort to existing libraries, allowing
this specific extension for this spe= cial case, than to change the base
protocol. Otherwise, this document sh= ould UPDATE 8446.

=C2=A0

This is a good p= oint and one that we struggled a bit with during design. We needed to allow= SNI in the CertificateRequest message because it can be client-generated i= n this context. I'd be ok with creating a different extension for this,= but it's rather elegant to re-use it in this context. I'd like = to hear some opinions from the working group on this point

=C2=A0

* 8: I think the
Security Consid= erations is the right place to talk about interaction between
this proto= col and TLS 1.3 (or 1.2) renegotiation. Even if we simply RECOMMEND
not = to do it. Or else explain the use cases where renegotiation is still useful=
if there are any.

=C2=A0

I'm not = sure this document should be prescriptive about use cases. This doc is prov= iding a new capability that may be leveraged at the application to replace = the functionality of existing mechanisms, but I'm not convinced the eva= luation of the trade-offs of different mechanisms should be contained in th= is document.

--0000000000003c30ec059786cf1e-- From nobody Sun Nov 17 00:47:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FDB81200C4 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 00:47:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uVZSLXEEH_PE for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 00:47:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x431.google.com (mail-wr1-x431.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::431]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3640412007A for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 00:47:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x431.google.com with SMTP id n1so15857689wra.10 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 00:47:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=OFUALbzcRdnoU7exDQG4F2131AcJwgJdHLJox9n/ohg=; b=CU51Q0WElGOMFWhh5vfNNL0H9jKHDnNh3clhXnHf4APA/ims0kRgbkrAUIs5igQHFy 3S3w3/8VOZHAYxMPdRVb2vS4lJBXu/dcS89sBqFYBJi/LfahF2M2NR+WHlCKHp5RPtU4 cI+IviQSS+DCSx+ipkMtCt34ASULeyAwXYc9t05TwtZyCUPE+yWSbJ2uNW7NhieSqVOO W0QUEbynXLY6QFcDHCMfKaC4nAnuwnQ0wLIwrCZzL5/hSZMcPuT++4/sREJ8QLKkqPIn 0uxEvBOlUcK4jTb4ySDhGX6GhT5YacToMFwNp0UaaAZw3qqWIdG+3xRWEoF6l2HA2CAy 8bfg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=OFUALbzcRdnoU7exDQG4F2131AcJwgJdHLJox9n/ohg=; b=bFyN9rx/955/iIm+0kBc3AzRAv4CDP9AhMbdHUueNHIqLPrsI6nEsFYfie3EHXs9mM oXcChpEpayVfMoA35ngDNWqfWJSYLDdKLD9hlTbdWi4FCLnb4eeuL6szbjGWLBNYN5AA 1NPh3Jam+RmEBYCQ4+7EB49RNrBQad3FQHJFE4cosKPG/+ONUZeuK1uk5IbAtSzZN/3W 9e8DZQ8PGV0WxgrtwNHYJLwbXFBYKlUoFgvotiupOtmOFDHqnl7XX3CeNiRgzB6TVSzv qXQEpPfUtDgAvkAhAMcidBodE0aHMMZnt0ac6b0aLJ6sjqzRlmpbzJOMIbsuwrLFaSQw UFSw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX4St0iqmxPQlDP7MpFb8qxVTcBCqrQF7C49PKoh6b0SbPWNI+u psDYKthXgGZVLWJb11kycsO4l50YAgM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxUY79WxRY2f7yrGbRXOXjbFOEfEcu09NLGy/mw2kdIVqw/+DSa1KrfJVbyuyc7YM7GWXARmQ== X-Received: by 2002:adf:f048:: with SMTP id t8mr8507692wro.237.1573980463794; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 00:47:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:1232:144:7944:956e:bae8:501a? ([2001:67c:1232:144:7944:956e:bae8:501a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k125sm17531670wmf.2.2019.11.17.00.47.41 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 17 Nov 2019 00:47:43 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <7788BA87-8031-4C3C-A37D-824B90DF7E26@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D5171CA9-56BD-4730-A8BA-F8463328B2C1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: LLC Board Meeting Details - 18 November 2019 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 16:47:38 +0800 In-Reply-To: <5745DDE8-9245-4FC4-A51F-02FC9BE9CD7F@cisco.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , IETF To: Eliot Lear References: <157358242100.25951.5931081193762366168.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5745DDE8-9245-4FC4-A51F-02FC9BE9CD7F@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 08:47:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D5171CA9-56BD-4730-A8BA-F8463328B2C1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Eliot, > On Nov 13, 2019, at 2:21 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > Hi! >=20 > Would this be a good time to discuss = draft-lear-we-gotta-stop-meeting-like-this? IMHO, this is not something the LLC should be driving. Where/when/how = we meet is something the IETF leadership (IETF Chair + IESG) should be = discussing and then bring it to the community for feedback. Only after = that is done, should the LLC get involved to implement the new policy. = They have a role to explain the consequences of a change, but not the = decision to do it. Bob >=20 >> On 12 Nov 2019, at 19:13, IETF Administration LLC Board of Directors = Chair wrote: >>=20 >> - Please see below for details on observing this meeting in person - >>=20 >>=20 >> IETF LLC Board of Directors meetings are conducted via = web/teleconference. Members of the community are welcome to attend = certain portions of these meetings as observers. Regular meetings are = divided into three sections: >>=20 >> 1. Open (to Observers) >> 2. Board + Support Staff Only >> 3. Executive Session (Board-Only) >>=20 >> The next meeting will be held on Monday, November 18, 2019 at 13:30 = SGT (05:30 UTC). WebEx and Dial-in information is at the bottom of this = message and also at = . The meeting = will be held in Singapore during IETF 106. In-person observers are = welcome at the Singapore Fairmont in room Minto. >>=20 >> The agenda for the meeting can be found at = . >>=20 >> A calendar of upcoming public meetings can be downloaded or = subscribed to at: >> = https://calendar.google.com/calendar/ical/ietf.org_vmffrv4hq14aqpedenuv5v4= 2hs%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics >>=20 >>=20 >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> JOIN WEBEX MEETING >> = https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dmb4cd878ebbbc2fd25a11cad47b249f4a= >> Meeting number (access code): 314 642 358 >>=20 >>=20 >> JOIN BY PHONE >> 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) >> Meeting number (access code): 314 642 358 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows >> audio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed = during >> the session to be recorded. By joining this session, you = automatically >> consent to such recordings. If you do not consent to the recording, >> discuss your concerns with the meeting host prior to the start of the >> recording or do not join the session. Please note that any such >> recordings may be subject to discovery in the event of litigation. >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> IETF-Announce mailing list >> IETF-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >=20 --Apple-Mail=_D5171CA9-56BD-4730-A8BA-F8463328B2C1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl3RCSoACgkQrut0EXfn u6giIwf9HDz4mDLu1hXIzKIixiObGkl0wdQNuvm0lkuiMwR1xB7Iy1vzKAslh1kG omtBq8eRLU2ErMD2p1R6h/0Mftrwub/YXUF84s0a4gslu7gqR4BL8wTiVLSj7Ndt JFN/m7hS6I9IQ974O/kyqCM3jjSkJQHuqvwYEWKuEESLIynN9r1liQh7CL/KXv74 rAH7oXYJj0syQjffxv5sTka17JFwGQchmnCx9NSGuRpIZZbhpE6i8H6uyzNG4Ozx b5LhChOk1vUmYNmu68p0aMYiYqM+3ZpH4BbgB92zl29K8WXpHUeHVEZgxqo8uf/a Ij29FH/66+LSsEgHE06SOsQEf6aaBA== =nty7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_D5171CA9-56BD-4730-A8BA-F8463328B2C1-- From nobody Sun Nov 17 14:51:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9111A12008F; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 14:51:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xKPA-iUU4qHM; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 14:51:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out2.informatik.tu-muenchen.de (mail-out2.in.tum.de [131.159.0.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5EE4112008C; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 14:51:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.in.tum.de (Postfix, from userid 107) id 912CD1C0403; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 23:51:39 +0100 (CET) Received: (Authenticated sender: ott) by mail.in.tum.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A750F1C03F4; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 23:51:35 +0100 (CET) (Extended-Queue-bit tech_ovdez@fff.in.tum.de) Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-dmm-pmipv6-dlif-04 To: CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO , Joerg Ott Cc: draft-ietf-dmm-pmipv6-dlif.all@ietf.org, tsv-art@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, dmm References: <157108615425.24656.12786623966649135975@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Joerg Ott Message-ID: <18fe369b-5dab-f6df-a5eb-25fae589e2c0@in.tum.de> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 06:51:32 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 22:51:46 -0000 Hi Carlos, thanks for the update. I checked and, well, I was hoping for more than just a few statements in the text reflecting my comments below. Actually, I was wondering if some of the protocol mechanisms would need updating to make sure that everything works. Given that the target of the document is experimental, missing bits may not be such a big deal, it is for experimentation after all. Still, for example, pacing could be spec'ed more precisely. And I am not sure how much you guys thought about security associations altogether (I am not a security person and I don't play one on TV either). The secdir review provided other comments. Are all those taken care of now? Best, Jörg On 02.11.19 12:45, CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO wrote: > Hi Joerg, > > We've just posted a new revision addressing your comments. > > Thanks, > > Carlos > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 1:24 PM CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO > > wrote: > > Thanks a lot Joerg for your very comprehensive review. > > We will carefully look at your comments and provide responses (with > proposals of text changes) in the next few days. I prefer to take > some time to properly address all your points. > > Thanks! > > Carlos > > On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 10:49 PM Joerg Ott via Datatracker > > wrote: > > Reviewer: Joerg Ott > Review result: Ready with Issues > > Hi, > > this document has been reviewed as part of the transport area > review team's > ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were > written > primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to > the document's > authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and > also to the IETF > discussion list for information. > > When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should > consider this > review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please > always CC > tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or > forward this review. > > The draft defines extensions to Proxy Mobile IPv6 to support a > more distributed > variant of mobility management. In essence, as a mobile node > moves from one > point of attachment (Mobility Anchor and Access Router, MAAR) to > the next, > its routing prefix with the previous MAAR(s) remain(s) and > ongoing transport > layer connections remain active and routed indirectly via the > previous MAAR, > while new ones will use the present MAAR. The interactions of > MAARs are > managed via a Central Mobility Database (CMD). > > The draft is well written and good to follow, describing the > protocols and > extensions clearly. I just have two transport-specific concern > and two general > operational issues that require further clarification in the draft. > > The transport issues: > > T1. Section 3.2. When the CMD acts as a relay for Proxy Binding > Updates (PBUs) > and Proxy Binding Acts (PBAs), the CMD may act as a relay of a > single PBU to > multiple previous MAARs. If multiple previous MAARs exist, say > k, (and there > may be numerous in case of many fast handovers, e.g., with > vehicular networks), > the CMD creates k outgoing packets from a single incoming > packet. This bears > a certain amplification risk (which may also need to be > addressed in the security > considerations section) but it also may lead to packet bursts > originated from the > CMD, albeit to different targets. Other protocols start > introducing pacing to avoid > bursts on the outgoing link, even if the packets do take > different paths in the end. > This may be worthwhile considering. > > T2. Also in section 3.2, when relaying PBAs, the CMD serves as a > transport or > application endpoint and should have a way to deal with missing > responses > (after all, this is a connectionless protocol on top of an > unreliable Internet). > A timeout is only mentioned for aggregation, but even there > there the timeout > is not specified, nor is a reference to, e.g., RFC 5213 or so to > infer a timeout > used elsewhere. > > General issues: > > G1. Section 3.2 (again) specifies that responses are aggregated > on p.10. How > does response aggregation work? How is error handling done? > > Moreover, also on p.10, further below the draft states that if a > timer expires, > the requests already received are forwarded. The missing ones > come later. > This seems to contradict aggregation because the originator (the > currently > server MAAR) does not expect more than a single response if it > sent out a > single update. This may thus require updated processing in the MAAR. > > G2. Sect. 3.3 suggests that PBAs could be sent straight from the > previous MAAR > to the current MAAR. How does this work if security associations > are supposed > to be applied? It would seem that, when following the security > considerations, > such cases are not covered. At least, this would warrant further > explanation as > in this case we suddenly have three involved security > associations, which would > also need to be established. > > G3. Sect 3.5 discusses deregistration and suggests that this can > only be done by > timeout; I understand the rationale but can any risks arise on > continued resource > consumption (DoS attacks)? > > G4. Sect. 6.: As alluded to above, the security considerations > may need expanding. > > Nits: > p.12: "information are" -> "information is" > p.12: "influence on" -> "influence" > > > > -- > Special Issue "Beyond 5G Evolution": > https://www.mdpi.com/journal/electronics/special_issues/beyond_5g > > > > -- > Special Issue "Beyond 5G Evolution": > https://www.mdpi.com/journal/electronics/special_issues/beyond_5g > > > _______________________________________________ > Tsv-art mailing list > Tsv-art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art > From nobody Sun Nov 17 17:01:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B82BF12080E for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 17:01:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V7vGCKFQ9fsW for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 17:01:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x429.google.com (mail-pf1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F36F120804 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 17:01:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x429.google.com with SMTP id q26so9471698pfn.11 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 17:01:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9/WcsjYl/BibX3Zg21mxZgllflIprql+6EmOJgDaZzA=; b=Z6KbvWh7U8Kb2+2UfUUYeOGTTvAFy8RX0tNJ8puW226Qw1oNk9cLWYr4JhUyWhUL2B H9zmhwjRlNpQYPoYN13G1JhWfqAkJVTE8foRqBB15bBm7uGkOFdkc4goTa1V1UMr50o4 ccdhXIzeK9MRKwUqnVDiVKAXvVQImFDNvI9V2mA4dm3cXrOfsMTN4hDtXlPe6SqmVdk8 HakKlWGYS0EfeemyHLX0JXtq0LaaMVsxaCDP6h5EKF/i4u/WXeFoc78uhWnck3fWQon4 PFe+y4u00QTvDhOXWquOKfqQXSUsle7HuMhoUHQFfMnobK4HPrtPk8+ae6wZ16dh75Gv 7cqA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=9/WcsjYl/BibX3Zg21mxZgllflIprql+6EmOJgDaZzA=; b=G4E20TBjAMyEXS6ctRu4POZWG1iEno9Uxtjk1be8beKG6ZoFH/JE2wd6UkUdDq1kCV Tuc+eVcIHuj9XdQ4LnBl5qt7AP+z2y/SATs1NbdMj3KFtXnFJH9p7RnCZrxhXS/YzK5L J4CpQPtdxR4pZg75JMAf1R6fvFkI6T65qnUZzA5xBLOzZllujxWhD03oey/NjWy9dL7J CyMmWMuGwqRCOVEOgr035dRB37GBGGgaq8juOSyHwnbB7eDiB4seJTCqolmne3+A4myv W5dQe6FZmZIbBrsfsEzpK91BK9KoJ8Yfo9Sw70mf4zghQp0I4dWT0f+z4QD6HBmt3ce3 z1jw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXtF2ZSnvBSIuZUidK4ROdulnt72KKQOu6QPOliapKHyVnzkrlX 7QHrtYSRn++VoTUfd1x2Y/RXrEDA X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy5pPVQufaJHj3TNfWES6f0bpUm7SAx7T2m87nO1ZffH6XMx3dzYE/hgWaLMhBB3RXgzxygCA== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:963c:: with SMTP id r28mr30701705pfg.91.1574038890788; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 17:01:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [31.133.129.140] (dhcp-818c.meeting.ietf.org. [31.133.129.140]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y22sm18140224pfn.6.2019.11.17.17.01.28 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 17 Nov 2019 17:01:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: IAB report to the community To: Ted Hardie , iab@iab.org, ietf@ietf.org, "execd@iab.org" References: <7f516417-415b-367c-f8c5-a508942c034b@iab.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:01:28 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7f516417-415b-367c-f8c5-a508942c034b@iab.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 01:01:33 -0000 Thanks for the report, Ted. However I do want to raise one issue. You say:... > The IAB has a few chartered roles. It ... appoints the RFC series editor and oversight committee,... Actually the charter (RFC850, BCP39) does not say that. What it says is: "The IAB must approve the appointment of an organization to act as RFC Editor and the general policy followed by the RFC Editor." I think that at the moment it's important to distinguish what is formally chartered by BCP from what is current practice. Regards Brian Carpenter From nobody Sun Nov 17 18:12:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 472BD12011F for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:12:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 80yP06UEAPLf for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:12:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x434.google.com (mail-pf1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 798B8120048 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:12:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x434.google.com with SMTP id n13so9582138pff.1 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:12:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qiw3Owmql/7JtxiJWTLElHz3XshY54/xCLft5gjx5nE=; b=WW1DpUpAcoONLHkZm92HY3VxxsC/F5zY6m3g30JlUm2V9lp0r0y3BhgNBGCM0tVsIc 17Sl+XTnRaofaZf38HXdUPSMwejG1INh2ivbIaSpJ09WeeUJPePqxOoiZ1d5GOvL0AJ7 F2uW4f95IfGXmuPg1n/TL8effhyIFTUFNdVNBR4XJMn3+A/e89e/9vVXU0QT02tDc2nm UBmjDCObCZSatC5gerzYXalvH61LG+gTh/p89ZaFa0KeiSQjLApyxsY1UXQJlF8HV4gc wc2J4w4WE0xa2/GsL1FXaU8W6uGvvW/rLD3DPkNn+mBKI5sMrg8IprOYcAqm/prBWGWf zppA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qiw3Owmql/7JtxiJWTLElHz3XshY54/xCLft5gjx5nE=; b=CNHY3maBBEg806/15JEj6wzSP0O8N0Qcjcqrf0wQAoV0pCXvkaVdTU8PHeThDylF6B 8SByMqDalWZjjBqeqm682Ds2hyLbBklOZKuYYWKPlVAv/QBwBA8T/JpQz04ucMspwfXz ieHMlukv4yZd6hjSO4SlBfREayYJWI9e8a5TVAwIDLGj09nXhSmeRC85F85wGzqfHHVW +e7D2KkCWbTlzZtgBsoM/VISZ6M61CDvNs7Q8dJ281dIL11G749HwunLKC2orNTa3GjS YB63RcxIjM6VM1Cwva6Df2bKpDBbI9Ezul22HUGawiefLHxLrakZOR4FGJwKOoGlickP etkw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWsBGYcm3o97huAS/LZT2O1uEA/izyIuq5AaBpDEFrk3Jl0N0a7 x3Ia4lZfPU3E7mEbvQf9mP3vR+jV X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx2qP7yKRDla1iduOblFu2PS7krV0iZp7oJs8AVgbdgHdvp4BS1rOoG7rJ+CT5E+CAyNqhE+w== X-Received: by 2002:a65:4345:: with SMTP id k5mr16000375pgq.252.1574043148981; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:12:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [31.133.129.140] (dhcp-818c.meeting.ietf.org. [31.133.129.140]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g3sm17872080pfo.82.2019.11.17.18.12.27 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:12:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: RFC1984 still needed... To: IETF discussion list From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 15:12:27 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 02:12:32 -0000 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-interpol-encryption-exclusive/exclusive-interpol-plans-to-condemn-encryption-spread-citing-predators-sources-say-idUSKBN1XR0S7 Brian From nobody Sun Nov 17 18:39:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03E6C1208FB; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:39:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GrHGM0Nsxt-h; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:38:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from hardie-macbookpro.roam.corp.google.com (dhcp-824e.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.130.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 787FC1208CB; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:38:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: IAB report to the community To: Brian E Carpenter , iab@iab.org, ietf@ietf.org, "execd@iab.org" References: <7f516417-415b-367c-f8c5-a508942c034b@iab.org> From: Ted Hardie Message-ID: <53ea834a-1b72-08d7-0c13-24e9d55efcf8@iab.org> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:38:55 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D3AE26D6C9CA377DDAA8F412" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 02:39:02 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D3AE26D6C9CA377DDAA8F412 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Brian, Thanks for the review. On 11/18/19 9:01 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Thanks for the report, Ted. However I do want to raise one issue. You say:... >> The IAB has a few chartered roles. It ... appoints the RFC series editor and oversight committee,... > Actually the charter (RFC850, BCP39) does not say that. What it says is: > > "The IAB must approve the appointment of an organization to > act as RFC Editor and the general policy followed by the RFC Editor." I'm happy to take a PR for future iterations of the report.  RFC 2850 is the charter and has the text you cite.  At the moment, the mechanisms by which it is carried out is in RFC 6635, Section 2.1, which says: The RSE is appointed by the IAB, but formally hired by the IAOC. The IAB delegates the direct oversight over the RSE to the RSOC, which it appoints. The reference to the IAOC is changed in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc6635bis/, which is currently in the RFC Editor's queue. All of this may change as the result of the ongoing community discussions, but if you have a pithy way of summarizing all of that that we can use until it does change, as I said, I'd be happy to have it to hand. regards, Ted Hardie > I think that at the moment it's important to distinguish what is formally > chartered by BCP from what is current practice. > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > --------------D3AE26D6C9CA377DDAA8F412 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the review.

On 11/18/19 9:01 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
Thanks for the report, Ted. However I do want to raise one issue. You say:...

The IAB has a few chartered roles. It ... appoints the RFC series editor and oversight committee,... 

Actually the charter (RFC850, BCP39) does not say that. What it says is:

"The IAB must approve the appointment of an organization to
act as RFC Editor and the general policy followed by the RFC Editor."

I'm happy to take a PR for future iterations of the report.  RFC 2850 is the charter and has the text you cite.  At the moment, the mechanisms by which it is carried out is in RFC 6635, Section 2.1, which says:

   The RSE is appointed by the IAB, but formally hired by the IAOC.  The
   IAB delegates the direct oversight over the RSE to the RSOC, which it
   appoints.

The reference to the IAOC is changed in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc6635bis/, which is currently in the RFC Editor's queue. 

All of this may change as the result of the ongoing community discussions, but if you have a pithy way of summarizing all of that that we can use until it does change, as I said, I'd be happy to have it to hand.

regards,

Ted Hardie

I think that at the moment it's important to distinguish what is formally
chartered by BCP from what is current practice.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter
--------------D3AE26D6C9CA377DDAA8F412-- From nobody Sun Nov 17 18:56:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FA37120048 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:56:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=isoc.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yKI1tKJV0gKI for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:56:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM01-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr820053.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.82.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01BAE120013 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:56:09 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=fpk3JdJ5nfncmq6kMf8P04wgHl2W6f/Zf0f8MukoQqa9+E1M0DeRGX6ojNiREi333uxR4Bt+67UvpUsL/KueWASclby0W2v3JxkpSoEGHXZ0Qtj7A8CDf0MtQY6NEQPaw8tpvP5W5AwqXmtJ0wKNMjnpY94lHgRRIyK1beCsXepOOLEbfPUAIBgpgYva482E42M773TyWBUTYd9KJPtP7S6+RCB5wJxMwCG6vRpA0wxAZ9bz3ocFdO0JC56nHZ/S39epn3rfeSqVQcY9DOjDYJnp+oLSGVr0q9ChX5Z4SRbL9JAOzSi2q4Iz43kS5aj6+o5aL/AF39dY9prmH2Qv3A== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=uMH3mlI8h7vu+ZbGGxQKKV8l9MQDPfEek3hiWPWWq54=; b=bZ/ACsJzhkSRfPLmeSceoP+NpBZpfdcrvgjCuwoq3xR5xs9JQdGE4LCrhkKLn3CSU/a/J2CK5aWgdkcpcApUtzpGS2yQ3r96iJSghdtPTL3rlLL2wPlPinc9AoRGhID31dLluCwY094RVHc9K9TU8lI9Mjo1taoakGwGcjLxjUWa8U9he8BWG82QMhsdf2FEKJdzVyryCgbXWWGuyJaULJpkYQJHrLDsccUCIxmZg30A8JdEecFJKIoX3o84qaF5xgFLWTwb15lX7YFDNhWL4xImJAIHCPCTl8ENZnu1GOowkDY1hmPcnx/GJj3b+xPv7XED7ZJZyrLCcQenqzuiUA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=isoc.org; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=isoc.org; dkim=pass header.d=isoc.org; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isoc.org; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=uMH3mlI8h7vu+ZbGGxQKKV8l9MQDPfEek3hiWPWWq54=; b=h7euK4TOZrpUSS80mGdN2wcxzJHH/UzK/Xiyq/Jx/r3SjF5gaILjbgl0E82cMkuGRCcd9rlw58IfIjH9SjUPr1uG1RQ2flCQeWvNfttW5laawUUdQ/amdIkk1s1+7xOMNYCm2RLxGu836uHiFef7eRTPcYQC8qgYqyXU1BilN70= Received: from CH2PR06MB6743.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (20.180.9.24) by CH2PR06MB6503.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (20.180.9.206) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2451.23; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 02:56:05 +0000 Received: from CH2PR06MB6743.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b4e1:d7cf:a544:2bd5]) by CH2PR06MB6743.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b4e1:d7cf:a544:2bd5%7]) with mapi id 15.20.2451.029; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 02:56:05 +0000 From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall To: Brian E Carpenter , IETF discussion list Subject: Re: RFC1984 still needed... Thread-Topic: RFC1984 still needed... Thread-Index: AQHVnbWoIdit+FdAPkG50Jc9+3U6jaeQO6f6 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 02:56:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=hall@isoc.org; x-originating-ip: [167.99.120.44] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 9212f136-2dc6-4bcb-74fe-08d76bd2db0a x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CH2PR06MB6503: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:4502; x-forefront-prvs: 0225B0D5BC x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(376002)(136003)(396003)(366004)(39830400003)(346002)(189003)(199004)(446003)(186003)(71190400001)(110136005)(52536014)(7736002)(66066001)(3846002)(305945005)(8936002)(74316002)(66446008)(256004)(966005)(66946007)(25786009)(91956017)(76116006)(64756008)(66616009)(66476007)(478600001)(71200400001)(99286004)(33656002)(486006)(476003)(26005)(102836004)(2906002)(11346002)(5660300002)(229853002)(81166006)(8676002)(81156014)(53546011)(7696005)(55016002)(6506007)(6436002)(7116003)(76176011)(66556008)(14454004)(9686003)(6246003)(6306002)(316002)(6116002)(4744005)(86362001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:CH2PR06MB6503; H:CH2PR06MB6743.namprd06.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: isoc.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: hXcKC/gJar+ZUrS/pTG1qASWooeDNlt2SnA6SLmx99R1+d4t1fwN37SKW9WzCx/bffwmVN4Lzax2GWp5kdUUSMpz3Asv05xKS1H4y97MIICCH+NZ1cKysY8s1QU+KvmCpaSSKr9SXBbsZno4jv5WVtgu9iJv30snMWobHXTOupWyN6mdzahyGSDfDMlMdoWN3ysIDGp2I1aigMHWziB1Ks2TlGqSHSE/Ovwz2gjQ7rffXC5Q7YBRGPsNeGcqc4qY4YSL0dclY9kreiW2y9lb3rJJyhfAnPbBhDgh1dGD1eVX1Ta/QxRVO9fu47IcZRvDJIXCMWVsY/LxG+7Q8rWhXMNuBuZZej3zIoPX21JoE1x36KT5MBP7sSdCiTU8aU7K3t0qNU4VWA/Ti96CHbH9hdwSPMElbk2DF2N2UZsqLRISUZ9G+4KpA//fIVmFhGjH x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_002_CH2PR06MB6743192F2462B42349EC4AE3B14D0CH2PR06MB6743namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9212f136-2dc6-4bcb-74fe-08d76bd2db0a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Nov 2019 02:56:05.6806 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: sQ8Go1NXBJZavfLd8tJZDgpqDYKbguCMHKrn6Mw879ajX2zwl3o+MDAFnueVelAN X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CH2PR06MB6503 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 02:56:11 -0000 --_002_CH2PR06MB6743192F2462B42349EC4AE3B14D0CH2PR06MB6743namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable here is the final text of the statement, sorry for a very poor PDF. The rhe= toric here is totally beyond the pale in my opinion and erroneous in many p= laces. best, Joe ________________________________________ From: ietf on behalf of Brian E Carpenter Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 10:12 AM To: IETF discussion list Subject: RFC1984 still needed... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-interpol-encryption-exclusive/exclusive-= interpol-plans-to-condemn-encryption-spread-citing-predators-sources-say-id= USKBN1XR0S7 Brian --_002_CH2PR06MB6743192F2462B42349EC4AE3B14D0CH2PR06MB6743namp_ Content-Type: application/pdf; name="Interpol-draft-crypto-resolution-20191118.pdf" Content-Description: Interpol-draft-crypto-resolution-20191118.pdf Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Interpol-draft-crypto-resolution-20191118.pdf"; size=331265; creation-date="Mon, 18 Nov 2019 02:55:10 GMT"; modification-date="Mon, 18 Nov 2019 02:55:10 GMT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 JVBERi0xLjcKJbe+raoKMSAwIG9iago8PAovVHlwZSAvQ2F0YWxvZwovUGFnZXMgMiAwIFIKPj4K 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--_002_CH2PR06MB6743192F2462B42349EC4AE3B14D0CH2PR06MB6743namp_-- From nobody Sun Nov 17 19:27:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B02C1200DE for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 19:27:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.821 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.821 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qyifx0pvtHes for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 19:27:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3E151208A4 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 19:27:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E1F4467; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 22:27:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap36 ([10.202.2.86]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 17 Nov 2019 22:27:07 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=MFuBcX6Q1MgZBmtTcMgwXEAz5ZTRj sXgrB46f5osWUw=; b=UIinaFhHRSy2Lhuga7N5U0YPkvibGFEV3+BHv22FnO6jl q3R15qq917d3ibgHXmewgEvZBGjry3eyRgwb6oTZAqRzkzZN/FRA/AxcIZ5bTPXn 1NaOED8l/5WT8ldC/eotrP8Ovt8Yr59EmGgqcj4tjDAFf3H7uvQoFQeq8U7dNSx/ AJaCPXfbbwJ4X0jjjDiCFV3nZicLC5t+v/hZodk4lzLGo0/8g9hb133Ggof1VgAU 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Second side-meeting on financial technology *TODAY 13:30* Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 03:27:10 -0000 Hi, My apologies for the short notice. We will coordinate to have 2nd side-meeting on financial technology in Olivia room today, 13:30-15:30. As I mentioned in the HotRFC session, We are trying to establish a multi-stakeholder discussion community on financial technology. The abstract of the HotRFC talk attached below. (We had a side-meeting in IETF 105, so, this is 2nd occasion.) Also, my colleague Hirotaka Nakajima wants to introduce his I-D on security consideration on cryptoassets custodians, which he wants to get feedback from the community. ( https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-vcgtf-crypto-assets-security-considerations/ ) See you in the room. shigeya --- HotRFC abstract The Internet is a global and borderless communication platform. Decentralized Finance Technology, which will be work on top of the Internet, will have similar properties to the Internet. To create a healthy eco-system, we need to discuss the architecture of the technology, with multiple-stakeholders. We are currently seeking people who want to join the effort. I can provide up-to-date info on our activities if there are people who have an interest in this via any format during IETF 106, and on the mailing list, which we'll create (finally). From nobody Sun Nov 17 21:29:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D58D120077; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 21:29:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Administration LLC Board of Directors Chair To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Report for IETF 106 X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.110.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org Message-ID: <157405495126.24354.17265074741462703296.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 21:29:11 -0800 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 05:29:11 -0000 **Please check out the slides from the plenary at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/materials/slides-106-ietf-sessb-llc-board-briefing-00 for more detail and/or attend the plenary.** Key actions since IETF-105: - Hired a permanent IETF Executive Director, Jay Daley! - Finalized IETF LLC policies and filed all conflict of interest forms - Announced several contract awards - Finalized draft 2020 budget and released for community comment Welcome to IETF-106! Regards, Jason Livingood Chair, IETF LLC Board LLC-Board-Chair@ietf.org ++++++++++ How to Contact the IETF LLC ++++++++++ Executive Director: Exec-Director@ietf.org Sponsorship: sponsorship@ietf.org Board: LLC-Board@ietf.org ++++++++++ General IETF LLC Board Background ++++++++++ About the IETF LLC: https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/ Meeting minutes: https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/llc-board/minutes/ Future meetings: https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/llc-board/meeting-info/ Financial statements: https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/financial-statements/ From nobody Sun Nov 17 22:11:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA50112086C; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 22:10:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nohats.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GaTDOECJfeXc; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 22:10:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.nohats.ca (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:2a03:6000:1004:1::68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E2A5120086; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 22:10:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47Gdqb1nsvz3Fn; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 07:10:51 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nohats.ca; s=default; t=1574057451; bh=7ahwNKvHvYpIi1kJDby32Ohov01KDtun2PH2DhYJz6I=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=LgWMzh5ShUQoW2iHdDSuNpLZwyliNwfuExa16XEA5H5hMdjZCWN/JClqwu4epJqjU CVDxKJnuxmRfznGHNVpc/SBMtSp9XnBVCnR4pgrdsab1Kk6QFD0KRz4Soz/XMAFVp7 mLTmrMRmH4byr7vMCtcA9kX1Ps0ZXQyZN1q/Ofuw= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mx.nohats.ca Received: from mx.nohats.ca ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o2e2kghp7tVF; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 07:10:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from bofh.nohats.ca (bofh.nohats.ca [76.10.157.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 07:10:49 +0100 (CET) Received: by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9AFFB60011A1; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 01:10:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9622382DF4; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 01:10:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 01:10:48 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Wouters To: Roman Danyliw cc: "iesg@ietf.org" , ietf@ietf.org Subject: RE: Yang update from IESG ? In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01E70B0061@marchand> Message-ID: References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01E70B0061@marchand> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="172770717-923614470-1574057448=:9256" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 06:10:55 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --172770717-923614470-1574057448=:9256 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 18 Nov 2019, Roman Danyliw wrote: [ cc:ing ietf@ietf.org for wider discussion, see attachment for Design Patterns ] > Paul Wouters wrote: >> During a plenary at the last or second last IETF, I raised an issue about people >> stuffing incomplete and obsolete/deprecated partial IANA registiries in yang >> drafts/RFCs. The IESG confirmed this as a problem to me and one of the IESG >> members said they were aware and would get back on this. >> >> I have not heard anything. The issue is still a problem. Originally, this came up >> in i2nsf/ipsecme, and has now resurfaced for me in dnsop. > The IESG talked about this issue during the last IETF meeting. See attached. > > The outcome of this discussion was that there is no single "right answer" and individual ADs should intervene on specific instances as appropriate. Thanks for the answer. Unfortunately, it is not much of guidance and does not really address the issue I raised, namely that we are putting snapshots of IANA registries in RFC documents. One of your three Design Patterns still does this. Note also that Design Pattern #1 you quote is exactly the one I am trying to avoid from happening and Design Pattern #2 happened because I _did_ convince those people not to do Design Pattern #1. I would like to see the IESG discourage/forbid Design Pattern #1. The "yang native" advantage of this Design Pattern seems odd to me, because as far as I know there will be specific yang documents created elsewhere anyway that are supposed to be updated and used by automation tools? 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--172770717-923614470-1574057448=:9256-- From nobody Sun Nov 17 23:06:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD2A012086B; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 23:06:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nic.cz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M5ux7FlImcpH; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 23:06:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [IPv6:2001:1488:800:400::400]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9BEF21200B3; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 23:06:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from birdie (dhcp-9c3a.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.156.58]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FA24140996; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 08:05:55 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1574060758; bh=gKrG8JU648+WTRZZnb3yJn9fYx3okE8Xfuj6FD7EJgk=; h=From:To:Date; b=DNkj2ulHPZzgTymiMCbx1fDwqVf5N9fYIGFkBoX9DEtl7teqZadMIt+6RJxF6qGxB 26034iEK88uel6al6MtpN1VPy7IN7X5vj5KjLmHEp25Jx5popXCVTSURyYz6hmfdcg COyrJBegr3eXjBMc/fYhL5w7kxnhpmgKmkFBUqDg= Message-ID: Subject: Re: Yang update from IESG ? From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Paul Wouters , Roman Danyliw Cc: "iesg@ietf.org" , ietf@ietf.org Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 15:05:49 +0800 In-Reply-To: References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01E70B0061@marchand> Organization: CZ.NIC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" User-Agent: Evolution 3.34.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.100.3 at mail.nic.cz X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 07:06:03 -0000 On Mon, 2019-11-18 at 01:10 -0500, Paul Wouters wrote: > On Mon, 18 Nov 2019, Roman Danyliw wrote: > > [ cc:ing ietf@ietf.org for wider discussion, see attachment for Design > Patterns ] > > > Paul Wouters wrote: > > > During a plenary at the last or second last IETF, I raised an issue about > > > people > > > stuffing incomplete and obsolete/deprecated partial IANA registiries in > > > yang > > > drafts/RFCs. The IESG confirmed this as a problem to me and one of the > > > IESG > > > members said they were aware and would get back on this. > > > > > > I have not heard anything. The issue is still a problem. Originally, this > > > came up > > > in i2nsf/ipsecme, and has now resurfaced for me in dnsop. > > The IESG talked about this issue during the last IETF meeting. See > > attached. > > > > The outcome of this discussion was that there is no single "right answer" > > and individual ADs should intervene on specific instances as appropriate. > > Thanks for the answer. Unfortunately, it is not much of guidance and > does not really address the issue I raised, namely that we are putting > snapshots of IANA registries in RFC documents. One of your three Design > Patterns still does this. The snapshot should represent the consensus of a corresponding working group regarding the best way of modelling a given IANA registry in YANG. After the publication of that RFC, IANA is expected to update the YANG module along with the registry so as to keep both in sync. I do agree that careless YANG modellers that don't bother to read the RFC could take the YANG module snapshot published therein as the most recent revision because the RFC itself isn't updated. Perhaps the purpose and expeced use of the module can be stated more clearly in the RFC, but it still won't help those who don't read it. > > Note also that Design Pattern #1 you quote is exactly the one I am > trying to avoid from happening and Design Pattern #2 happened because > I _did_ convince those people not to do Design Pattern #1. I strongly disagree with the statement that design pattern #1 cannot be updated. First, as described in draft-lhotka-dnsop-iana-class-type-yang-02, the YANG module is expected to be updated (by IANA) every time the corresponding registry changes. So the enumeration can be updated with new mnemonic names. And second, implementors of the YANG module can in fact use the type 'dns-class' that is defined as follows:In effect, the 'dns-class' type combines desing patterns #1 and #2. BTW, t typedef dns-class { type union { type uint16; type dns-class-name; } description "This type allows for referring to a DNS class using either the assigned mnemonic name or numeric value."; } I apologize to those who don't speak YANG but the meaning should be clear: if somebody wants to use a DNS class that is not defined in the 'dns-class-name' enumeration, he or she can use the numeric value instead. This is analogical to using CLASS42 in other contexts as per RFC 3597. In effect, the 'dns-class' type above combines design patterns #1 and #2. Roman's presentation also doesn't mention another design pattern that was used in the aforemetioned RFC 7224 for the interface types registry, namely to model interface types as YANG identities. Lada > > I would like to see the IESG discourage/forbid Design Pattern #1. The > "yang native" advantage of this Design Pattern seems odd to me, because > as far as I know there will be specific yang documents created elsewhere > anyway that are supposed to be updated and used by automation tools? > > Paul -- Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Mon Nov 18 00:36:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A96C21208F6; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 00:36:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kXdgp0-5dvC8; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 00:36:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from veto.sei.cmu.edu (veto.sei.cmu.edu [147.72.252.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0D4F12087D; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 00:36:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from korb.sei.cmu.edu (korb.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.21.30]) by veto.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id xAI8ae8b019789; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 03:36:40 -0500 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 veto.sei.cmu.edu xAI8ae8b019789 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cert.org; s=yc2bmwvrj62m; t=1574066200; bh=90LoGa6wcOUmD7E5jSnB+USydrbgSvY8lL7+ccw4IKk=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=r3Jfp+VjxWT7V4Z0PaXfur0wocfuJFZe3rVfNpNFy/HTG1UB2xFOR27ldlV+Auw6T jTIKk8oGe0VHKIJybxhhk7ko3ke3Y2LlIGRCMukV8cSVWhjhZ0AJQL84NsbQc+uElE lfbcTPtjWofbvKF3JCv9BCV4knyGIsXGBhWucbrU= Received: from CASCADE.ad.sei.cmu.edu (cascade.ad.sei.cmu.edu [10.64.28.248]) by korb.sei.cmu.edu (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id xAI8abAG010158; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 03:36:37 -0500 Received: from MARCHAND.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.251]) by CASCADE.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.248]) with mapi id 14.03.0468.000; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 03:36:37 -0500 From: Roman Danyliw To: Ladislav Lhotka CC: "iesg@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "Paul Wouters" Subject: RE: Yang update from IESG ? Thread-Topic: Yang update from IESG ? Thread-Index: AQHVmlojqBtx/RzQuE6BQ/xmgZvnO6eQH0gQgACtrACAAA9fgP//w5vw Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 08:36:36 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01E70B0F66@marchand> References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01E70B0061@marchand> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 08:36:44 -0000 SGVsbG8gTGFkYSENCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBpZXNn IDxpZXNnLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+IE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBMYWRpc2xhdiBMaG90a2ENCj4g U2VudDogTW9uZGF5LCBOb3ZlbWJlciAxOCwgMjAxOSAyOjA2IEFNDQo+IFRvOiBQYXVsIFdvdXRl 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Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <97cdeee5-899a-4636-8d6d-c08fcf9139db@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 18:46:06 +0800 From: "Shigeya Suzuki" To: "Nathan Aw" Cc: "IETF general list" , din@irtf.org Subject: Re: [Din] Second side-meeting on financial technology *TODAY 13:30* Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=2794a96b44f94de1ac2eeab58854523f Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:46:32 -0000 --2794a96b44f94de1ac2eeab58854523f Content-Type: text/plain Hi, Nathan, all. Thank you very much for your interest. I've posted the presentation I used, here: http://kbcl.sfc.keio.ac.jp/events/ietf106_side_meeting/ietf106-financial-tech-side-meeting.pdf Hiro will upload and post the link to his presentation later. There was, unfortunately, a small difference since last side meeting. So, even we had ten attendees (thanks for attending even for short notice!) there was no feedbacks this time. I believe we can provide some updates on or activities, or someway to ask people to involved in the near future. I will let you know. thanks! shigeya On Mon, Nov 18, 2019, at 18:19, Nathan Aw wrote: > Dear all, > > Sorry for the late reply. I missed this out. I have worked in the financial industry with leading companies for more than 8 years, 3 years with decentralised technology and should be able to share some experience. > > Please let me know how did it go today and if there are any next steps, if any? > > Thank you. > > Nathan Aw > > On Mon, 18 Nov 2019, 11:27 Shigeya Suzuki, wrote: >> Hi, >> >> My apologies for the short notice. >> >> We will coordinate to have 2nd side-meeting on financial technology in Olivia room today, 13:30-15:30. >> >> As I mentioned in the HotRFC session, We are trying to establish a multi-stakeholder discussion community on financial technology. The abstract of the HotRFC talk attached below. (We had a side-meeting in IETF 105, so, this is 2nd occasion.) >> >> Also, my colleague Hirotaka Nakajima wants to introduce his I-D on security consideration on cryptoassets custodians, which he wants to get feedback from the community. ( https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-vcgtf-crypto-assets-security-considerations/ ) >> >> See you in the room. >> >> shigeya >> >> --- >> HotRFC abstract >> >> The Internet is a global and borderless communication platform. Decentralized Finance Technology, which will be work on top of the Internet, will have similar properties to the Internet. To create a healthy eco-system, we need to discuss the architecture of the technology, with multiple-stakeholders. We are currently seeking people who want to join the effort. I can provide up-to-date info on our activities if there are people who have an interest in this via any format during IETF 106, and on the mailing list, which we'll create (finally). >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Din mailing list >> Din@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/din --2794a96b44f94de1ac2eeab58854523f Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Nathan, all= .

Thank you very much for your interest.

I've posted the presentation I used, here:


Hiro will upload and post = the link to his presentation later.


There was, unfortunately, a small difference since last side mee= ting.
So, even we had ten attendees (thanks for attending = even for short notice!) there was no feedbacks this time.
=
I believe we can provide some updates on or activities, o= r someway to ask people to involved in the near future. I will let you know.

thanks!

shigeya

On Mon, Nov 1= 8, 2019, at 18:19, Nathan Aw wrote:
Dear all,
Sorry for the late reply. I missed this out. I = have worked in the financial industry with leading companies for more th= an 8 years, 3 years with decentralised technology and should be able to = share some experience.

Please let me know how did it go today and if there are any next s= teps, if any?

Thank you.

Nathan Aw

On Mon, 18 Nov 2019, 11:27 Shigeya Suzuki, &= lt;shigeya@wide.ad.jp> wrot= e:
Hi,

My apologies for the= short notice.

We will coordinate to have= 2nd side-meeting on financial technology in Olivia room today, 13:30-15= :30.

As I mentioned in the HotRFC session= , We are trying to establish a multi-stakeholder discussion community on= financial technology. The abstract of the HotRFC talk attached below. (= We had a side-meeting in IETF 105, so, this is 2nd occasion.)
<= div>
Also, my colleague Hirotaka Nakajima wants to intro= duce his I-D on security consideration on cryptoassets custodians, which= he wants to get feedback from the community. ( https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-vcg= tf-crypto-assets-security-considerations/ )

See you in the room.

shigeya

---
HotRFC abstract

The Internet is a global and borderless communicatio= n platform. Decentralized Finance Technology, which will be work on top = of the Internet, will have similar properties to the Internet. To create= a healthy eco-system, we need to discuss the architecture of the techno= logy, with multiple-stakeholders. We are currently seeking people who wa= nt to join the effort. I can provide up-to-date info on our activities i= f there are people who have an interest in this via any format during IE= TF 106, and on the mailing list, which we'll create (finally).
=

_______________________________________________
Din mailing list

--2794a96b44f94de1ac2eeab58854523f-- From nobody Mon Nov 18 02:53:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FADB1208F2 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 02:53:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2LQIgOVKiaPd for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 02:53:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C8C781200DB for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 02:53:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id xAIAr3cW021143 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 18 Nov 2019 05:53:05 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 02:53:03 -0800 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Michael Richardson Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Message-ID: <20191118105303.GN32847@mit.edu> References: <15BCDF05-FB13-45D2-A5DF-70618EBA1A5A@gmail.com> <9182.1573147520@localhost> <02eb79d1-1830-5830-ed95-b743f601a8de@network-heretics.com> <84ee7053-1dbb-bfcc-c576-c2cf115a743e@network-heretics.com> <31471.1573886540@dooku.sandelman.ca> <20191116070802.GN32847@kduck.mit.edu> <10449.1573959523@dooku.sandelman.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <10449.1573959523@dooku.sandelman.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:53:10 -0000 Hi Michael, On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 10:58:43AM +0800, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > My understanding is that most directorates have a secretary that does > > the assignments (secdir does, at least). > > yes, that's my understanding. > > I'd like to see more coordination between ADs (particularly Sec-ADs) and > directorates so that the security review process can occur earlier, and so > that any loop with the SecADs can happen earlier. > > In the case of draft-ietf-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra, I'd have liked to get > more attention from Christian,Jari and Russ (reviewers) and the various ADs > earlier. The significant reviews were done a year ago, and we are just > finishing now. > That's a big investment of time among the 6 or 7 people involved. I'm not sure that I understand what you're looking for here. In the case of https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-16-secdir-lc-huitema-2018-09-29/, my conclusion from looking at the review is that "this document is not ready for publication as-is and should go back to the WG before it comes before the IESG". That is, I would essentially ignore the document until the secdir reviewer is satisfied [or the authors' responses give some indication that the reviewer is incorrect], to make more efficient use of my time. But it sounds like you're suggesting that I should see that review and take it as a signal to get *more* involved with the document. Am I missing something? > > By the time an AD is looking > > at the review next to the document it might only be a few days before > > the telechat where the document is up for approval, which is not really > > enough time to get another review in without deferring the document. > > It seems that we doing these early secdir reviews, but someone this is not > feeding up to the ADs well enough, who then do their own review. That's just > not leveraging the secdir well. In a similar vein, I'm not sure what you would see as "leveraging the secdir well". I don't see myself as beholden to accept the secdir review as-is -- to me the secdir reviews are a tool that I can take advantage of as I perform my AD duties, but it's not the only tool at my disposal, and if I am concerned that a given document may have broad impact or contain subtle security issues, I am generally going to do an in-depth review myself, in addition to any other reviews that have been done. > > Maybe we should go get that extra review and try to remove the stigma > > against deferring documents; I don't have a sense for how the community > > would feel about that. > > I'm okay with this, but maybe the sponsoring AD and WG chairs need to be more > active in chasing down reviewers. Just to check: this is "seeking enough reviews from the relevant area(s)" as opposed to "ensuring that people who did reviews respond to the updates made because of their reviews"? > Again, I'd like more offocial acknowledgement of the work reviewers do. > > > And yes, the AD should look at the directorate review when it arrives, > > but looking only at the review and not the document being reviewed is > > not always enough to tell whether additional review would be valuable. > > Agreed. > What if the Shepherd write up was had more ways to flag things? >From a technical point of view, I think this may only be relevant when the shepherd is not a WG chair for the WG in question -- my understanding is that the WG chair can click a button in the datatracker to request a directorate review at any time, which might be more helpful than just a note in the writeup. -Ben From nobody Mon Nov 18 05:26:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20B16120915; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 05:26:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aED33zchAaIV; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 05:26:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 759FF120059; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 05:26:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [118.201.227.138]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D64B1F450; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 13:26:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 23B1A10EF; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 21:26:21 +0800 (+08) From: Michael Richardson To: Roman Danyliw , "iesg\@ietf.org" , ietf@ietf.org, Paul Wouters Subject: Re: Yang update from IESG ? In-reply-to: References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01E70B0061@marchand> Comments: In-reply-to Paul Wouters message dated "Mon, 18 Nov 2019 01:10:48 -0500." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 21:26:21 +0800 Message-ID: <10541.1574083581@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 13:26:28 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul Wouters wrote: >>> During a plenary at the last or second last IETF, I raised an issue >>> about people stuffing incomplete and obsolete/deprecated partial IA= NA >>> registiries in yang drafts/RFCs. The IESG confirmed this as a probl= em >>> to me and one of the IESG members said they were aware and would get >>> back on this. >>>=20 >>> I have not heard anything. The issue is still a problem. Originally, >>> this came up in i2nsf/ipsecme, and has now resurfaced for me in >>> dnsop. >> The IESG talked about this issue during the last IETF meeting. See >> attached. >>=20 >> The outcome of this discussion was that there is no single "right >> answer" and individual ADs should intervene on specific instances as >> appropriate. > Thanks for the answer. Unfortunately, it is not much of guidance and > does not really address the issue I raised, namely that we are putting > snapshots of IANA registries in RFC documents. One of your three Desi= gn > Patterns still does this. I also am unhappy with this situation. As far as I can tell it means that IANA will be maintaining YANG modules. I don't understand how this is going to work for real products. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl3Sm/wACgkQlUzhVv38 QpAwFgf+PRU6sEPfrsiGDxVY/gkvKQCEWZo/D/ddjnaSnMkBqlj6gG5dQTTEAD4g wWpdzOj/+gZn1pPYkwcr7iVlurIBHYq3TOqtCeb0UalyZ42OBqj401VxDYhiE+3r KaFpamiJ5Q6X8wbEFC1nFEeWxdknpsiAevBM7L4RTRzovIKJ4fQKnvd1GWGoQCVO GckjSqksRv7VdLoBc2gWsOIpJuPofpWlhkqhvd9ovq9IrxgF9hMmE1eJoLjVrR/J Drhj/NO7hjnoBC3UyNsdjusZPi6zlpAnWfC4IEgltjSu8pp6QXj93oYW84G2uABz PWGe3ofENzokt1mFbizwDyqlNaykyw== =1vl2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Nov 18 06:07:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77CE1120835; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 06:07:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nic.cz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id anbxDqXbnD10; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 06:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [217.31.204.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 515D81200F5; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 06:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from birdie (dhcp-9c3a.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.156.58]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BBB5E140DD0; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 15:07:33 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1574086056; bh=m05signQizPIUrXZJ1jP/P3mCvN8SH0NqR4Ot1uI33Y=; h=From:To:Date; b=ZeKZurTlu88eRFi4e6UNfclXzf9lfXg7b/eA7EeSNAdftfIP29ujGXovA3cqUbhSR LNm1jez35y1T0hbMdTWqpQLrkirevT/Od4zTAr3ls2z9I9CpdEpg2HvxvYhA+YtNdC H2kLRV3HtBCpviTwpdP1OKg/YAammI1m42nzbIgs= Message-ID: Subject: Re: Yang update from IESG ? From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Michael Richardson , Roman Danyliw , "iesg@ietf.org" , ietf@ietf.org, Paul Wouters Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 22:07:29 +0800 In-Reply-To: <10541.1574083581@dooku.sandelman.ca> References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01E70B0061@marchand> <10541.1574083581@dooku.sandelman.ca> Organization: CZ.NIC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" User-Agent: Evolution 3.34.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.100.3 at mail.nic.cz X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:07:40 -0000 On Mon, 2019-11-18 at 21:26 +0800, Michael Richardson wrote: > Paul Wouters wrote: > >>> During a plenary at the last or second last IETF, I raised an issue > >>> about people stuffing incomplete and obsolete/deprecated partial IANA > >>> registiries in yang drafts/RFCs. The IESG confirmed this as a problem > >>> to me and one of the IESG members said they were aware and would get > >>> back on this. > >>> > >>> I have not heard anything. The issue is still a problem. Originally, > >>> this came up in i2nsf/ipsecme, and has now resurfaced for me in > >>> dnsop. > > >> The IESG talked about this issue during the last IETF meeting. See > >> attached. > >> > >> The outcome of this discussion was that there is no single "right > >> answer" and individual ADs should intervene on specific instances as > >> appropriate. > > > Thanks for the answer. Unfortunately, it is not much of guidance and > > does not really address the issue I raised, namely that we are putting > > snapshots of IANA registries in RFC documents. One of your three Design > > Patterns still does this. > > I also am unhappy with this situation. > > As far as I can tell it means that IANA will be maintaining YANG modules. > I don't understand how this is going to work for real products. IANA has been doing it for more than five years for a couple of YANG modules (six by now), and I am not aware of any troubles so far. Lada > -- Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Mon Nov 18 06:49:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E1A120895; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 06:49:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OkBJ9KYeH9rj; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 06:49:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32c.google.com (mail-ot1-x32c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 441DA120842; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 06:49:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id l14so14696215oti.10; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 06:49:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vTAeeRUInVYrMTfz6WFmVogX+rB+NUUqlz2WgtPFSgI=; b=G1TszsCerpzIaWg0iRIAdFwg74+GvWOnzXMMuJxMpqNeOu2cqP4tGGiZxrGRPkTyXO Z7jr1982MdJmEf7IhmKI+sMp8jtw8Cl89bpGnYWNbqVsCHk3is65NXN0ra4m2sus29rq ELZ0bDtUTjwzFSLPqdkKnSQ+vcBf+ToaTb1xvXw38jutUPpJdPd+DILH/pSHR9GXiGxg ubEohHHCAhr44VDW8HbdTPAZn93/hvYwvTyt4g3YaiIxyp7axxawIDnEDx7Xp52Rp8sW 9bM3ZJPP/9VAVoSvntGl25f7m0emdeVXU3MituVx/FQS7Nm1Xjpf8v8GYppaUi3PhB+E CcNA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vTAeeRUInVYrMTfz6WFmVogX+rB+NUUqlz2WgtPFSgI=; b=kRG66KlPr25Bjtf68LqzKSwBsWr85rWzaCENMZo6QLq8PrfgiTvaepOtNApPdzk46E 7OdtcDRve+Wt4UiYSRF/bb0zhNFuB2mzBILwNA0SSf3ZCwys5JgSWtY8+gQZcT19X0cI e6OMY6AJzeDAtks+Rpf4qsqaZP3TzsT1cibI6ATqO4f+ZLIwtnlj+rKWjLBln9BHyuq/ m+b+wkKf+2ujEdPPlXuwQtH/KsDOHQQFH0+ZfOs5UZlvUxFEUlcmyL/X4egxLogwnD0z GSGds5e8ouITOKFlsdLoKn002KAg73rpv/eQfYFh+iQgK26DKNlZxzDvEdKHkNhkxwr5 TUnA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVYocJsZws130PwIxzZSemgm4R1lFIT5HCdhudR8DrOofmk3wHl FzUP+nkhdVN/PDnW8ZstaO6tfyMMO1TUQAbxwgU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzejHfNmzpFHy1ADLMSKs40/cw0KSNTZz/3ZqoiWkQ7tq5cA+nozQhpKagluHwmndvYxc+usCmlNSbYZ9vseCs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:14c:: with SMTP id j12mr8035436otp.41.1574088566569; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 06:49:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01E70B0061@marchand> <10541.1574083581@dooku.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: From: Tim Wicinski Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 22:49:15 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Yang update from IESG ? To: Ladislav Lhotka Cc: Michael Richardson , Roman Danyliw , "iesg@ietf.org" , IETF Rinse Repeat , Paul Wouters Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000db007b0597a00d89" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:49:29 -0000 --000000000000db007b0597a00d89 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" IANA has been doing it for more than five years for a couple of YANG modules (six by now), and I am not aware of any troubles so far. But that's work put onto the IANA pile, and some I* organization may want to understand the commitment. On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 10:08 PM Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > On Mon, 2019-11-18 at 21:26 +0800, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Paul Wouters wrote: > > >>> During a plenary at the last or second last IETF, I raised an > issue > > >>> about people stuffing incomplete and obsolete/deprecated partial > IANA > > >>> registiries in yang drafts/RFCs. The IESG confirmed this as a > problem > > >>> to me and one of the IESG members said they were aware and would > get > > >>> back on this. > > >>> > > >>> I have not heard anything. The issue is still a problem. > Originally, > > >>> this came up in i2nsf/ipsecme, and has now resurfaced for me in > > >>> dnsop. > > > > >> The IESG talked about this issue during the last IETF meeting. > See > > >> attached. > > >> > > >> The outcome of this discussion was that there is no single "right > > >> answer" and individual ADs should intervene on specific instances > as > > >> appropriate. > > > > > Thanks for the answer. Unfortunately, it is not much of guidance > and > > > does not really address the issue I raised, namely that we are > putting > > > snapshots of IANA registries in RFC documents. One of your three > Design > > > Patterns still does this. > > > > I also am unhappy with this situation. > > > > As far as I can tell it means that IANA will be maintaining YANG modules. > > I don't understand how this is going to work for real products. > > IANA has been doing it for more than five years for a couple of YANG > modules > (six by now), and I am not aware of any troubles so far. > > Lada > > > > -- > Ladislav Lhotka > Head, CZ.NIC Labs > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 > > --000000000000db007b0597a00d89 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

IANA has been doing it for more = than five years for a couple of YANG modules
(six by now), = and I am not aware of any troubles so far.

But that's work put onto the IANA pile, and some I* organization may w= ant to understand the=C2=A0
commitment.=C2=A0

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019= at 10:08 PM Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@ni= c.cz> wrote:
On Mon, 2019-11-18 at 21:26 += 0800, Michael Richardson wrote:
> Paul Wouters <p= aul@nohats.ca> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> During a plenary at the last or second= last IETF, I raised an issue
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> about people stuffing incomplete and o= bsolete/deprecated partial IANA
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> registiries in yang drafts/RFCs. The I= ESG confirmed this as a problem
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> to me and one of the IESG members said= they were aware and would get
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> back on this.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> I have not heard anything. The issue i= s still a problem. Originally,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> this came up in i2nsf/ipsecme, and has= now resurfaced for me in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> dnsop.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> The IESG talked about this issue during th= e last IETF meeting.=C2=A0 See
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> attached.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> The outcome of this discussion was that th= ere is no single "right
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> answer" and individual ADs should int= ervene on specific instances as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> appropriate.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Thanks for the answer. Unfortunately, it is no= t much of guidance and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> does not really address the issue I raised, na= mely that we are putting
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> snapshots of IANA registries in RFC documents.= One of your three Design
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Patterns still does this.
>
> I also am unhappy with this situation.
>
> As far as I can tell it means that IANA will be maintaining YANG modul= es.
> I don't understand how this is going to work for real products.
IANA has been doing it for more than five years for a couple of YANG module= s
(six by now), and I am not aware of any troubles so far.

Lada

>
--
Ladislav Lhotka
Head, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67

--000000000000db007b0597a00d89-- From nobody Mon Nov 18 08:55:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5859F120121 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 08:55:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iML2mZup8prl for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 08:55:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-f46.google.com (mail-pj1-f46.google.com [209.85.216.46]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CD7F120045 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 08:55:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-f46.google.com with SMTP id y21so1659727pjn.9 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 08:55:47 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=ChZE6syj17k6k8y9dPU6F/GQmLXqeqbw54T426dpNMU=; b=S9LjyVOu3yAFsul5Z59iJkMe3X07kwER82hrjUeU9H+o/93h9Z9frDgvZ+d9qy6DN0 4F2arrEjI7/iyBjdwLcnAU2fIiaOG5XcxGaeJLX9tn9tsVFXGBsDsHWkT6u5byI2/bmX SrKkssvE81VLB+L7lLcSZfl0cYnKTUbyOCcq6fQW6hQBBaxsnkOXuN1/+0kDHCMRknsw uReIQCgdMWHg71AP2pY+XbyZWG2+vMC6iB8JXcTUrxLhcK+kj5isNahGp8UtZpu9sp2x ua9yCZgSZ/AzsOo3ZxErtlGpobbSyUjvkTe2Z3mgnaISyL1my85wlKQVOE0S32wXe3sS xWqw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWAPQXYvoZd1PMGhNYgCbaaSLLiuIeuGi2mHTAYw+IkShcbJFfY mBxxgVPvT6TzHA7uTdsFcuyrbBzjtUM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzvhSCP6TtRSb877ADpCGt8Z3m9u7pScutbTzDwSEeCDI1qqDREV3qtMeRYi+dznLTqFQM8kg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:b612:: with SMTP id b18mr30580514pls.210.1574096146514; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 08:55:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.105] (c-73-231-235-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.231.235.186]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c12sm22244877pfp.178.2019.11.18.08.55.45 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 18 Nov 2019 08:55:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Yang update from IESG ? To: ietf@ietf.org References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01E70B0061@marchand> From: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <6d9fae63-e2f1-0806-ccf8-8d0118e4ff35@alumni.stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 08:55:44 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 191117-0, 11/17/2019), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 16:55:48 -0000 Hi - On 11/17/2019 11:05 PM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: ... > The snapshot should represent the consensus of a corresponding working group > regarding the best way of modelling a given IANA registry in YANG. After the > publication of that RFC, IANA is expected to update the YANG module along with > the registry so as to keep both in sync. ... Have you considered doing what the ltru WG did in the course of producing BCP 47? The I-D handed off to the RFC editor had a working copy of the registry content, with instructions to remove that portion of the content upon publication.  It required a little coordination with IANA, but avoided the problem of anyone ever mistaking the RFC for the registry.  The same might be a possible course of action with modules like these. Randy From nobody Mon Nov 18 14:50:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ADCB120B01; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:50:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X9ANw21o1tlm; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:50:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E970412009E; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:50:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0122330.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id xAIMhIcO026647; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 22:50:39 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=date : from : to : cc : subject : message-id : references : mime-version : content-type : in-reply-to; s=jan2016.eng; bh=+DKP9u1Do2DL4zIlUlpOPjG6xNmMx0iT9o+vtIRubxg=; b=GSScqzdCu2w6ue7BIqTPF+A7T3KJXBzMZfThu8MWVKlzKjXLPfHaTNFkQLtFpj+TrLQm VgfkKHxHCtUiIaWFeZDRgEoxCOpZVAFtKk+GgNBIZlr8cmx0NGzRpGgt3Pj68P0AgZqq DLaWplxpSoGXEDBXxtOALJdDvGTyjgq1L+Xmi/4taTEjiTXZv1hlIQEMX1/bpsYGIBEE xdOm+wvyt3bp7Lihc2brwwrF7TUmW6nPJjJzGHaeio4HZwtpSpM8uZHSRdgouas4PfCu q+DAvjieeZpqnK4mVT3Q2KW42u+pwdCr2cp2v+0y+PVMBEEtoR3Th0/mPzQssBotbD2z CQ== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint2 (prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com [184.51.33.19] (may be forged)) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2wag31j29e-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 18 Nov 2019 22:50:38 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id xAIMl0PT017939; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 17:50:38 -0500 Received: from prod-mail-relay10.akamai.com ([172.27.118.251]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2waday63u8-1; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 17:50:37 -0500 Received: from bos-lpczi.kendall.corp.akamai.com (bos-lpczi.kendall.corp.akamai.com [172.19.17.86]) by prod-mail-relay10.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B12261FCAA; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 22:50:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bkaduk by bos-lpczi.kendall.corp.akamai.com with local (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iWpqu-0005aA-Az; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:50:36 -0800 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:50:35 -0800 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Nick Sullivan Cc: Yaron Sheffer , "" , draft-ietf-tls-exported-authenticator.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org Subject: Re: [TLS] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-tls-exported-authenticator-09 Message-ID: <20191118225035.GS20609@akamai.com> References: <156330717256.15259.2193942101748847069@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2019-11-18_07:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=993 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-1911180195 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.95,18.0.572 definitions=2019-11-18_07:2019-11-15,2019-11-18 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 clxscore=1011 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1910280000 definitions=main-1911180194 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 22:50:47 -0000 On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 04:42:05PM +0800, Nick Sullivan wrote: > Hi Yaron, > > Thanks for reminding me about the codepoint issue. It's a sticky one. > > As far as I see it, there are three options: > > a) Change the document to UPDATE RFC 8446 > This feels like a heavyweight option and may complicate things since it > will mean that SNI is allowed but undefined for CertificateVerify in the > TLS handshake. > > b) Ask for a new extension point for SNI sent in a client-generated > authenticator request. > This has the downside of not scaling to future client hello extensions that > could be useful in exported authenticator requests -- it forces the > definition of a new code point for each new extension. > > c) Explicitly state that the CertificateRequest-like construction in > client-generated exported authenticator requests is a new type of message > (analogous to a ClientHello) and clarify the rules about which extensions > can be used when it is client-generated (specifically, say that any > extension supported in CH is allowed) > This is my preferred solution. Just to check: this would be adding a new possible value for the "TLS 1.3" column at https://www.iana.org/assignments/tls-extensiontype-values/tls-extensiontype-values.xhtml#tls-extensiontype-values-1 ? Thanks, Ben > I'm interested to hear what the working group thinks, and I'll happily > present the options at IETF 106 if there's time. > From nobody Mon Nov 18 15:13:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC5AD120B69 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 15:13:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EA4vurlEofCp for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 15:13:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [67.222.33.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC549120919 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 15:13:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmgw11.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.11]) by gproxy8.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E5101AB211 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 16:13:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id WqD2igf65lpxgWqD2iCRWF; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 16:13:28 -0700 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=EqD8UxUA c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=dLZJa+xiwSxG16/P+YVxDGlgEgI=:19 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10:nop_ipv6 a=MeAgGD-zjQ4A:10:nop_rcvd_month_year a=Vy_oeq2dmq0A:10:endurance_base64_authed_username_1 a=HLvPDLHGFjgA:10:nop_election2020_name_subject a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=N7iCXatbAAAA:8 a=xznE5cbMHULSWwh1f14A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10:nop_charset_2 a=-RoEEKskQ1sA:10:nop_election2020_name_body a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=L6ZISBKyaqXi0tA97AcA:9 a=aiyMSXjIhsM1i6Yh:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10:nop_html a=96hUrU2xWrTe0OLsCvyc:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From: References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID :Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To: Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe :List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ODNR8B9nDn9s694E0m14XwM06cmRQhO1aQd9NSVB0NI=; b=k+DMvk4U5uvzSKKv702/wYK67I zGmsZHNTl2xoKnMa/vYnFDWAusZiqOfk/t6VL1MNvNLz9U3MeDGynPkDcAxTLR6bBBqgKcapn+zS6 hSwO2OQ60WaWC9ynl3JH34OkC; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=41635 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1iWqD1-002GSK-NB; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 16:13:28 -0700 Subject: Re: Yang update from IESG ? To: Tim Wicinski , Ladislav Lhotka Cc: Michael Richardson , Paul Wouters , "iesg@ietf.org" , IETF Rinse Repeat , "ops-ads@ietf.org" References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01E70B0061@marchand> <10541.1574083581@dooku.sandelman.ca> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <6f5a54ca-98fb-e510-9fcf-2a98e2735e6d@labn.net> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 17:13:23 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------48A47D1866B58E8B048F6EBD" Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1iWqD1-002GSK-NB X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:41635 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 8 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 23:13:34 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------48A47D1866B58E8B048F6EBD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We do have a working group that is chartered to deal with general/common issues with YANG -- NetMod.  I suggest that this be hashed out there. -- Of course the ADs need to concur... Lou NetMod Co-chair On 11/18/2019 8:49 AM, Tim Wicinski wrote: > > IANA has been doing it for more than five years for a couple of > YANG modules > (six by now), and I am not aware of any troubles so far. > > But that's work put onto the IANA pile, and some I* organization may > want to understand the > commitment. > > On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 10:08 PM Ladislav Lhotka > wrote: > > On Mon, 2019-11-18 at 21:26 +0800, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Paul Wouters > wrote: > >     >>> During a plenary at the last or second last IETF, I > raised an issue > >     >>> about people stuffing incomplete and obsolete/deprecated > partial IANA > >     >>> registiries in yang drafts/RFCs. The IESG confirmed this > as a problem > >     >>> to me and one of the IESG members said they were aware > and would get > >     >>> back on this. > >     >>> > >     >>> I have not heard anything. The issue is still a problem. > Originally, > >     >>> this came up in i2nsf/ipsecme, and has now resurfaced > for me in > >     >>> dnsop. > > > >     >> The IESG talked about this issue during the last IETF > meeting.  See > >     >> attached. > >     >> > >     >> The outcome of this discussion was that there is no > single "right > >     >> answer" and individual ADs should intervene on specific > instances as > >     >> appropriate. > > > >     > Thanks for the answer. Unfortunately, it is not much of > guidance and > >     > does not really address the issue I raised, namely that we > are putting > >     > snapshots of IANA registries in RFC documents. One of your > three Design > >     > Patterns still does this. > > > > I also am unhappy with this situation. > > > > As far as I can tell it means that IANA will be maintaining YANG > modules. > > I don't understand how this is going to work for real products. > > IANA has been doing it for more than five years for a couple of > YANG modules > (six by now), and I am not aware of any troubles so far. > > Lada > > > > -- > Ladislav Lhotka > Head, CZ.NIC Labs > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 > --------------48A47D1866B58E8B048F6EBD Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

We do have a working group that is chartered to deal with general/common issues with YANG -- NetMod.  I suggest that this be hashed out there. -- Of course the ADs need to concur...

Lou

NetMod Co-chair

On 11/18/2019 8:49 AM, Tim Wicinski wrote:

IANA has been doing it for more than five years for a couple of YANG modules
(six by now), and I am not aware of any troubles so far.

But that's work put onto the IANA pile, and some I* organization may want to understand the 
commitment. 

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 10:08 PM Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz> wrote:
On Mon, 2019-11-18 at 21:26 +0800, Michael Richardson wrote:
> Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> wrote:
>     >>> During a plenary at the last or second last IETF, I raised an issue
>     >>> about people stuffing incomplete and obsolete/deprecated partial IANA
>     >>> registiries in yang drafts/RFCs. The IESG confirmed this as a problem
>     >>> to me and one of the IESG members said they were aware and would get
>     >>> back on this.
>     >>>
>     >>> I have not heard anything. The issue is still a problem. Originally,
>     >>> this came up in i2nsf/ipsecme, and has now resurfaced for me in
>     >>> dnsop.
>
>     >> The IESG talked about this issue during the last IETF meeting.  See
>     >> attached.
>     >>
>     >> The outcome of this discussion was that there is no single "right
>     >> answer" and individual ADs should intervene on specific instances as
>     >> appropriate.
>
>     > Thanks for the answer. Unfortunately, it is not much of guidance and
>     > does not really address the issue I raised, namely that we are putting
>     > snapshots of IANA registries in RFC documents. One of your three Design
>     > Patterns still does this.
>
> I also am unhappy with this situation.
>
> As far as I can tell it means that IANA will be maintaining YANG modules.
> I don't understand how this is going to work for real products.

IANA has been doing it for more than five years for a couple of YANG modules
(six by now), and I am not aware of any troubles so far.

Lada

>
--
Ladislav Lhotka
Head, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67

--------------48A47D1866B58E8B048F6EBD-- From nobody Mon Nov 18 18:56:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFEBD120BA0 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 18:56:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cloudflare.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id etD6REVJrv7w for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 18:56:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk1-xa30.google.com (mail-vk1-xa30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13FD112080F for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 18:56:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vk1-xa30.google.com with SMTP id k24so4688320vko.7 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 18:56:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cloudflare.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LQv/yJUOs3pUDQmlgpAmiyMpmDQXtVVk0ML3PkFLzxk=; b=iUG9q4TtqyjaOWftVHZ/z6Ta4SfmejIIbTZB1eImCTTVKAlAy6MAgNSJy3JQuL42QY WvIeP/Q4iKsQKb/UOXpGKB6jHmnWjv087HWnsdorSESfqpY1h4JzuRdjpBsV9Z1TlhX2 RzRyE7BewVWEmV1WCAxx/7AjiNzXSoPrI1kD0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LQv/yJUOs3pUDQmlgpAmiyMpmDQXtVVk0ML3PkFLzxk=; b=Ba5GHSSMDkmetpN5HD3inwqTZf1o1v+7QK3NxdqGvRuOnNmOBhqGfw4OTwIDGQ8RYe T1hHUiYmmLA/wAEXTnVLDqoM1wyaj0mhz4GzTUK++rS0Ck7F5QYRN+bMg1+7RbNupJ2q Uawe9hMAGSqEQ5ECWDZV8EvYUAh7McuJ+jbBZx2lmnWbZ0Nm4tPuJ65+rwmGZVR6g3zw d0xa3UIKKYHUx+iysXKgXA7dUoRexz1l7a5s4CB6QgKr3jKMxcI9mHl3wipY7KsOjIpc aP+sgi4rSYQRNwG+hJ1jeQPfsgF5unFkPMxlMKDBsh3wkeiUYTT4qh8ybR1P2Wk2MqgF 41Aw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX2Rm7wHXT5qYgvkdkB1MWFcb9haOPXViFAWFtRzXWGENQTemhz 66+yQq7tjbVZmZWkCPzrtybjUGx4lsIwi7jY1YxanA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwBfDE5Jgmax36ij8KjskPbKiy2ovsGhceV1zkaCDugRDlu1TvGNcQq0BfRzVzzTedFWNw6fHZJ7hHFnSsMjoI= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:2cd:: with SMTP id 196mr10263419vkc.23.1574132191837; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 18:56:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156330717256.15259.2193942101748847069@ietfa.amsl.com> <20191118225035.GS20609@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <20191118225035.GS20609@akamai.com> From: Nick Sullivan Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:56:14 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [TLS] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-tls-exported-authenticator-09 To: Benjamin Kaduk Cc: Yaron Sheffer , "" , draft-ietf-tls-exported-authenticator.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001ff5830597aa364c" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 02:56:45 -0000 --0000000000001ff5830597aa364c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 6:50 AM Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 04:42:05PM +0800, Nick Sullivan wrote: > > Hi Yaron, > > > > Thanks for reminding me about the codepoint issue. It's a sticky one. > > > > As far as I see it, there are three options: > > > > a) Change the document to UPDATE RFC 8446 > > This feels like a heavyweight option and may complicate things since it > > will mean that SNI is allowed but undefined for CertificateVerify in the > > TLS handshake. > > > > b) Ask for a new extension point for SNI sent in a client-generated > > authenticator request. > > This has the downside of not scaling to future client hello extensions > that > > could be useful in exported authenticator requests -- it forces the > > definition of a new code point for each new extension. > > > > c) Explicitly state that the CertificateRequest-like construction in > > client-generated exported authenticator requests is a new type of message > > (analogous to a ClientHello) and clarify the rules about which extensions > > can be used when it is client-generated (specifically, say that any > > extension supported in CH is allowed) > > This is my preferred solution. > > Just to check: this would be adding a new possible value for the "TLS 1.3" > column at > https://www.iana.org/assignments/tls-extensiontype-values/tls-extensiontype-values.xhtml#tls-extensiontype-values-1 > ? > Not necessarily. The text could be amended to say something like: "the allowed extensions for client-generated authenticator requests need to have CH listed, and for server-generated authenticator requests need to have CR listed" The only current extension that supports CR, but not CH is oid_filters, which is not relevant to client-initiated authenticator requests. > Thanks, > > Ben > > > I'm interested to hear what the working group thinks, and I'll happily > > present the options at IETF 106 if there's time. > > > --0000000000001ff5830597aa364c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 6:50 AM Benja= min Kaduk <bkaduk= @akamai.com> wrote:
On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 04:42:05PM +0800, Nick Sullivan wrote: > Hi Yaron,
>
> Thanks for reminding me about the codepoint issue. It's a sticky o= ne.
>
> As far as I see it, there are three options:
>
> a) Change the document to UPDATE RFC 8446
> This feels like a heavyweight option and may complicate things since i= t
> will mean that SNI is allowed but undefined for CertificateVerify in t= he
> TLS handshake.
>
> b) Ask for a new extension point for SNI sent in a client-generated > authenticator request.
> This has the downside of not scaling to future client hello extensions= that
> could be useful in exported authenticator requests -- it forces the > definition of a new code point for each new extension.
>
> c) Explicitly state that the CertificateRequest-like construction in > client-generated exported authenticator requests is a new type of mess= age
> (analogous to a ClientHello) and clarify the rules about which extensi= ons
> can be used when it is client-generated (specifically, say that any > extension supported in CH is allowed)
> This is my preferred solution.

Just to check: this would be adding a new possible value for the "TLS = 1.3"
column at https://www.iana.org/assignments/tls-extensiontype= -values/tls-extensiontype-values.xhtml#tls-extensiontype-values-1 ?
=
Not necessarily. The text could be amended to say somethi= ng like:
=C2=A0 "the allowed extensions for client-generated= authenticator requests need to have=C2=A0CH listed, and for server-generat= ed authenticator requests need to have CR listed"
=C2=A0
The only current extension that supports CR, but not CH is=C2=A0oid_= filters, which is not relevant to client-initiated authenticator requests.<= /div>


Thanks,

Ben

> I'm interested to hear what the working group thinks, and I'll= happily
> present the options at IETF 106 if there's time.
>
--0000000000001ff5830597aa364c-- From nobody Mon Nov 18 21:26:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51972120048; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 21:26:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.436 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OFMbO-wQgoQ5; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 21:26:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFC48120013; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 21:26:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:e86e:6eff:fe36:f4b7]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 233341F450; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 05:26:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 0E71D137A; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 13:26:32 +0800 (+08) From: Michael Richardson To: "iesg\@ietf.org" , IETF Rinse Repeat Subject: Re: Yang update from IESG ? In-reply-to: References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01E70B0061@marchand> <10541.1574083581@dooku.sandelman.ca> Comments: In-reply-to Tim Wicinski message dated "Mon, 18 Nov 2019 22:49:15 +0800." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 13:26:32 +0800 Message-ID: <7631.1574141192@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 05:26:39 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tim Wicinski wrote: >> IANA has been doing it for more than five years for a couple of YANG >> modules (six by now), and I am not aware of any troubles so far. > But that's work put onto the IANA pile, and some I* organization may > want to understand the commitment. And, I don't understand how the products get updated. Are they going to pull YANG modules from IANA? How often: hourly? daily? y= early? =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl3TfQcACgkQlUzhVv38 QpCI6AgApb+wqeEH5oR50iKxMhYa8ehgFz5G6fMzN4AfwXX8RiM9rDnrePO/LEVs i1++0MjWmBpgIwcdWUYoNnuCoJkqoEPsGLh5mYb7pzCzn+eLnzSfvhx3vNMUdtee 6qrBMYuCqhHl5fh1+0pZk+3w9Av+KkYgAXaXLyU3EoiILmh75i5CJAui71XLqDLZ nRmbuSOcxcK33IBWpnIR8fjcC8TAIDyJdkCFfyDb/481NseKlQPRCjLeM2/xzQGF X4xy2rJfZnIOXk2zzKowhs80O9V0Xn7FyllUxdPiAp9NFJwqas8JxnIt535boXt4 I9WQTk2TDYC9IZU4NgikQshVTiqlfw== =ns5d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Nov 18 22:42:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18CAA120BC9 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 22:42:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.406 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.406 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.244, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DxZivpUP_BPu for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 22:42:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-f42.google.com (mail-io1-f42.google.com [209.85.166.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C75DA1200A4 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 22:42:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-f42.google.com with SMTP id i13so21940285ioj.5 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 22:42:17 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=PcO+1DehBuqhTfwZthpdt//2PUskfWN563p36qqL8dM=; b=A3QzXlcz1KGY2xAJt87QF44P9BFh26umXUOAvEe0p2nf4QKFkf7q2LoPexRj+5B5ZE wyDtpE51ZvxjXoQkFumzZEdLE/lfmoqFmPoY/EgreERj8e6020Nobke0Zi05B0daoQ3H n1JRecLd5Szsxl/Kx+Z95W7yE4MxtNodUpMGkB/txGkN2BH62haeRzICzu8fHx7SqoJ8 QO+io9VrIc15Su0vUVMAOxCUMF9t8VtouAsZviGrHuG21VV7wNZYGNjaIZtCvzrzppIi ttXp6/4J/F7tdoCyuDor3FcdI3tZTXSXvo5NKVfvFVqBwiMUPYtjnkXXBpl+uDmAddVn B3NQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU+8zwGiUPluhwrXyEaQq2ajv2MR8oUU+SiIcVoHgpHmu96BrJj e6wF1QKllTsLJtBLzKG6tjXlg6gEpzy6Bfj3dUNXCssDh1Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyVp3PAqjIGdjrrhQdp0U/kiMS4ipg/ne/YCkq4/FKBZBn9l4FKxKIrPPXfGFq2XnIZRbqZZ60hFttmyQgi/Tk= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:c8cd:: with SMTP id y196mr6877284iof.266.1574145736232; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 22:42:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Barry Leiba Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 14:42:04 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members To: IETF discussion list Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 06:42:25 -0000 Perhaps some of you have seen that Ted Hardie posted an open letter on the Hong Kong high court=E2=80=99s injunction on Internet speech: https://medium.com/@ted.ietf/an-open-letter-on-the-hong-kong-high-court-inj= unction-on-internet-speech-7f0048df2f54 The letter is signed by Ted and is co-signed by three other IAB members, each signing as an individual: the letter is not from the IAB and doesn=E2=80=99t claim to be. Nevertheless, note that all signatories identify themselves as =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D, and three of the fou= r do not list their company affiliations. This has two effects: 1. By being signed by four IAB members who are identified primarily as IAB members, the letter *appears* to be from the IAB. I have passed this by three non-IETF friends, asking them who they think the letter is from, and all three said, =E2=80=9CThe Internet Architecture Board.=E2= =80=9D 2. By using =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D this way,= those signing the letter are effectively (whether by intent or not) using their IAB positions to gain credibility for their personal opinions. I think this is wildly inappropriate. I think those of us in IETF leadership should be scrupulously careful NOT to call out our IETF affiliations this way unless we are speaking for the organization. The fact that the letter refers to things that have been published with IAB consensus doesn=E2=80=99t change the fact that the *letter* does n= ot have IAB consensus, and we must be careful not to give the impression that it does. I=E2=80=99ve discussed this with Ted, who thinks that there=E2=80=99s nothi= ng wrong with how the letter was signed and posted. That disturbs me. I tried to let it go, but I=E2=80=99m sufficiently bothered by it that I felt the n= eed to take it to the community. This is that. Ted tells me that all IAB members were invited to co-sign the letter, and that none brought up a concern about the use of the =E2=80=9CMember, IAB=E2=80=9D affiliation. As you think about this and =E2=80=94 I hope =E2=80=94 discuss it, please k= eep this in mind: - I=E2=80=99m NOT talking about the content of the message and whether I do= or don=E2=80=99t agree with it. That=E2=80=99s not the point. I hope that as= we discuss this we do NOT go into the content, the politics, and so on. Let=E2=80=99s please keep this highly charged issue out of IETF discussions. - I=E2=80=99m NOT looking to beat Ted up here; what I want is for this not = to happen again, and I hope the ensuing discussion supports that. --=20 Barry From nobody Mon Nov 18 22:53:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D1A12085B for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 22:53:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=McWA5kXz; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=HOTkDKRP Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZP58MjbQLPST for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 22:52:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14AFF12082F for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 22:52:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA420220E2; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:52:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:52:57 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=8 mG8pfhmJHTcJ8LttKQp1OXMaNCsK8uXysimJ4f3B+Q=; b=McWA5kXzsOZ+KaQQn FTJVGl4D4wQp94O0FtcMTAZ861AZABlz3ubeg5Tj8PW+RBCPWIdSTeGkWpe2y5+Q 2IMWzjxBd7YbC+SS3n7m9MMBmJo6KNdM595WFuakyZS+49AKoh6JUm6/rYuKUCdS yXZpc+JjNg28FeqEMNNa/kH7yq3zcLTMT0odhQppfG9ypXUrR8wSikbYPwSaVJOW sDK2c/VN765yBskFvHYoQ730a2klCWZ85MWiEPGCSrL0XloeC7IkPlMgW9/v5LrE aG7uudsanpBwDdFWj3ct3aNGgnK7l3ImMg//Q5KqdNZ4A2Eg6WKgk4Y+9kOHU5LW k64Nw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=8mG8pfhmJHTcJ8LttKQp1OXMaNCsK8uXysimJ4f3B +Q=; b=HOTkDKRPH0PGkDW6OjPeF4SjiYW8kBZzmogb2FPwy1POOWXKDxp9X3gOf YZxD7JheKoBuqGj2JaruDVgVywTSrysEb/Bf8AxH/Tn7thuMUfogFTesBwvXN33i QAAiMHcm4GPkpNLe3+3dFl5kv9gEEbKOjPNagnxw1NMneI0h8RcWXYTSan34/GEq 0T1nY0U5pYxlUlPq2KjEu2aNzDMB+2kqBH91QR0d5T5iZe+zo7ShgkCReOlRmT7B 5XWoHRcCkBVlYZ2U23aAEdtY4M4NeV8cfIBp8yiK0xArI9wImMiLpEN0u1ggHX1i lwAIqezRwgwfwQLO/bDa/uh0CsiKg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudegjedguddttdcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeforghr khcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuffhomhgrih hnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthdpmhgvughiuhhmrdgtohhmnecukfhppeefuddrudeffedrudef jedrvdefgeenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth enucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from dhcp-89ea.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-89ea.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.137.234]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 88F6D306005B; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:52:55 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 14:52:50 +0800 Cc: IETF discussion list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <89270D87-7F6E-49ED-8500-5C97671F05F5@mnot.net> References: To: Barry Leiba X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3601.0.10) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 06:53:04 -0000 Hi Barry, I didn't co-sign the letter, but frankly I would have (with affiliation) = if I wasn't quite as busy when it was put forth by Ted. If you're suggesting that IAB and IESG members can't ever use their = affiliation unless it's on a document approved by the entire body, I'm = going to strongly disagree.=20 I think most people know the difference between a statement of a member = of Parliament and one by the entire body. This is not an employment = relationship, where putting a company next to your name does have some = impact. I think we as a community want our leadership to be more like the former = than the latter. This idea that the leadership bodies are homogenous and = speak with a single voice is IMHO damaging and leads to situations where = it's perceived to be us-vs-them -- by both the members of those bodies = and the greater community. Cheers, > On 19 Nov 2019, at 2:42 pm, Barry Leiba = wrote: >=20 > Perhaps some of you have seen that Ted Hardie posted an open letter on > the Hong Kong high court=E2=80=99s injunction on Internet speech: > = https://medium.com/@ted.ietf/an-open-letter-on-the-hong-kong-high-court-in= junction-on-internet-speech-7f0048df2f54 > The letter is signed by Ted and is co-signed by three other IAB > members, each signing as an individual: the letter is not from the IAB > and doesn=E2=80=99t claim to be. >=20 > Nevertheless, note that all signatories identify themselves as > =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D, and three of = the four do not > list their company affiliations. This has two effects: >=20 > 1. By being signed by four IAB members who are identified primarily as > IAB members, the letter *appears* to be from the IAB. I have passed > this by three non-IETF friends, asking them who they think the letter > is from, and all three said, =E2=80=9CThe Internet Architecture = Board.=E2=80=9D >=20 > 2. By using =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D this = way, those > signing the letter are effectively (whether by intent or not) using > their IAB positions to gain credibility for their personal opinions. >=20 > I think this is wildly inappropriate. I think those of us in IETF > leadership should be scrupulously careful NOT to call out our IETF > affiliations this way unless we are speaking for the organization. > The fact that the letter refers to things that have been published > with IAB consensus doesn=E2=80=99t change the fact that the *letter* = does not > have IAB consensus, and we must be careful not to give the impression > that it does. >=20 > I=E2=80=99ve discussed this with Ted, who thinks that there=E2=80=99s = nothing wrong > with how the letter was signed and posted. That disturbs me. I tried > to let it go, but I=E2=80=99m sufficiently bothered by it that I felt = the need > to take it to the community. This is that. Ted tells me that all IAB > members were invited to co-sign the letter, and that none brought up a > concern about the use of the =E2=80=9CMember, IAB=E2=80=9D = affiliation. >=20 > As you think about this and =E2=80=94 I hope =E2=80=94 discuss it, = please keep this in mind: >=20 > - I=E2=80=99m NOT talking about the content of the message and whether = I do or > don=E2=80=99t agree with it. That=E2=80=99s not the point. I hope = that as we discuss > this we do NOT go into the content, the politics, and so on. Let=E2=80=99= s > please keep this highly charged issue out of IETF discussions. >=20 > - I=E2=80=99m NOT looking to beat Ted up here; what I want is for this = not to > happen again, and I hope the ensuing discussion supports that. >=20 > --=20 > Barry >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Mon Nov 18 23:03:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B137D120803 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 23:02:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aEqYWhdJyWl7 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 23:02:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2c.google.com (mail-io1-xd2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE74B12085B for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 23:02:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id s3so21979555ioe.3 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 23:02:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3zUca5sKeIk31RO73Fb6Vfjz7vTBBAF/fKR6QwcU+H8=; b=AWeC2zxMP0wJflzMINnvOoUOU1OMqFa94e6Hm1OclKDA8J+A8tmfasUcuFgp6K+MwJ 8efcvRKW8SXpDdyMGtYd0cKL8OnnDT6unKAUEBwmotqV+lEbEXOotaFTHk6ZE7+sP0bj OpiMa4AGErR3d2+FkIqD1DAM3wV/flalH4Yuu3cOIXaF1GnWWUwRHCAY5/KtyfBpo2QI HJi2SzTCCuVK+B88RYUFMAgsibLnhluKthNh92i5UW/OZcgfGEKKgFSdwME+CYg0sz57 dwiwbVZuNR4lTDoSqPvmIYi4Dzkwuq6SW9evR5WVhgGCbvQyoLbGtOkmOO8+YDVVeM8J 8HNw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3zUca5sKeIk31RO73Fb6Vfjz7vTBBAF/fKR6QwcU+H8=; b=cyGJ3UoTzuGS8pFQtkuVhcWkYanbo1x9nLM9AcQAysijQazEK8mTL5B1FL7wLFvc0J +o5xfU3AOWxlTOzr0gVPcMjGTA2xpOVp/+Y4sL8tLYrb7/tELazDQMXoqi3nW4/8/76a PFbH1wTOBgC8Q/JBMKs5ZsWGDfP0EpL5klYAIlUeizXEzakqDQQnqUP/MrL6/7eOdg55 IHyVL9EvUwIGzBc4XGjeKAEdPKZX4HPU8QLOyAIVQA+HE24zsPbcDOSwRtIY5APlKKQ7 hEqjonzP3T6x5/6dwp6o5w/070GyGAJD3/L54YSRUnda6wWkl3zkcfCrd1WqzbRj5bIf uTTw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUeIjDLmiJoOnEnqyzfk2VbL32hh2GJ44bU+MabN7Xp3bEYA00I /UdNRJBXmuWXc+oraI4Vd4ryAhWCFFFbJRUjUsRxJJ9GJgc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx9mY1mWGHUIMF3yFOJT4it9cLBLNfDwTntpER+vxpayPeGGOGG5oXhGEOHZWFytpBqe3RJrF0XKgJlx5+dd/8= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:9e10:: with SMTP id h16mr1176687ioh.27.1574146958561; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 23:02:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Ted Hardie Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:02:12 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members To: Barry Leiba Cc: IETF discussion list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004a1dc50597ada634" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 07:02:51 -0000 --0000000000004a1dc50597ada634 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Barry, On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 2:42 PM Barry Leiba wrote= : > Perhaps some of you have seen that Ted Hardie posted an open letter on > the Hong Kong high court=E2=80=99s injunction on Internet speech: > > https://medium.com/@ted.ietf/an-open-letter-on-the-hong-kong-high-court-i= njunction-on-internet-speech-7f0048df2f54 > The letter is signed by Ted and is co-signed by three other IAB > members, each signing as an individual: the letter is not from the IAB > and doesn=E2=80=99t claim to be. > > Thanks for reading the letter. It's an important topic and one that ISOC HK and ISOC itself have weighed in on as well. Their statements, especially ISOC's at https://www.internetsociety.org/news/statements/2019/interim-injunction-ord= ered-by-hong-kong-high-court/ were part of why I took up a pen for this. After I wrote this, I shared it (including the proposed affiliation) with the IAB. I felt that it was the appropriate affiliation because of the two references to IAB statements in the document (my status as CUHK alumnus was cited to indicate my own personal care for the situation in Hong Kong). Nevertheless, note that all signatories identify themselves as > =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D, and three of the f= our do not > list their company affiliations. This has two effects: > > There was some time pressure here, and one of those who later asked to sign (Wes) unfortunately came in too late to be included. I did not have time to ask whether Jeff or Martin wanted company affiliation included; I included it with Stephen because he sent me the affiliation he preferred when he asked to co-sign. The failure to include other affiliations for them is down to that time pressure, nothing more. > 1. By being signed by four IAB members who are identified primarily as > IAB members, the letter *appears* to be from the IAB. I have passed > this by three non-IETF friends, asking them who they think the letter > is from, and all three said, =E2=80=9CThe Internet Architecture Board.=E2= =80=9D > > I hope you clarified it for them, and I hope this exchange clarifies it for any members of the IETF community who gathered the wrong impression. But the letter is not signed on behalf of the IAB, not on the IAB web site, and not attempting to present itself as the work of the whole IAB. It follows the same mechanisms we used in the past, including in previous Amicus briefs (such as that signed for the Wikimedia brief some time ago). 2. By using =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D this way,= those > signing the letter are effectively (whether by intent or not) using > their IAB positions to gain credibility for their personal opinions. > > I think this is wildly inappropriate. I think those of us in IETF > leadership should be scrupulously careful NOT to call out our IETF > affiliations this way unless we are speaking for the organization. > The fact that the letter refers to things that have been published > with IAB consensus doesn=E2=80=99t change the fact that the *letter* does= not > have IAB consensus, and we must be careful not to give the impression > that it does. > > I=E2=80=99ve discussed this with Ted, who thinks that there=E2=80=99s not= hing wrong > with how the letter was signed and posted. That disturbs me. I tried > to let it go, but I=E2=80=99m sufficiently bothered by it that I felt the= need > to take it to the community. This is that. Ted tells me that all IAB > members were invited to co-sign the letter, and that none brought up a > concern about the use of the =E2=80=9CMember, IAB=E2=80=9D affiliation. > > I am sorry that this surprised you, but given your own previous service o= n the IAB, I am equally surprised that you had not seen similar usage before. It has been done multiple times since I re-joined 6 years ago. I also anticipate that it may happen again in the future, with similar process (passing the document to the IAB for review first, with affiliation). regards, Ted Hardie > As you think about this and =E2=80=94 I hope =E2=80=94 discuss it, please= keep this in > mind: > > - I=E2=80=99m NOT talking about the content of the message and whether I = do or > don=E2=80=99t agree with it. That=E2=80=99s not the point. I hope that = as we discuss > this we do NOT go into the content, the politics, and so on. Let=E2=80= =99s > please keep this highly charged issue out of IETF discussions. > > - I=E2=80=99m NOT looking to beat Ted up here; what I want is for this no= t to > happen again, and I hope the ensuing discussion supports that. > > > -- > Barry > > --0000000000004a1dc50597ada634 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Barry,

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 2:42 PM Barry Le= iba <barryleiba@computer.org<= /a>> wrote:
P= erhaps some of you have seen that Ted Hardie posted an open letter on
the Hong Kong high court=E2=80=99s injunction on Internet speech:
https://medium.com/@ted.ietf/an-open-letter-on-the-hong-kong-= high-court-injunction-on-internet-speech-7f0048df2f54
The letter is signed by Ted and is co-signed by three other IAB
members, each signing as an individual: the letter is not from the IAB
and doesn=E2=80=99t claim to be.


Thanks for reading the letter. It'= s an important topic and one that ISOC HK and ISOC itself have weighed in o= n as well. Their statements, especially ISOC's at https://www.internetsociety.org/news/statements/2019/i= nterim-injunction-ordered-by-hong-kong-high-court/=C2=A0 were part of w= hy I took up a pen for this.=C2=A0

After I wr= ote this, I shared it (including the proposed affiliation) with the IAB.=C2= =A0 I felt that it was the appropriate affiliation because of the two refer= ences to IAB statements in the document (my status as CUHK alumnus was cite= d to indicate my own personal care for the situation in Hong Kong).

Nevertheless, note that all signatories identify themselves as
=E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D, and three of the fou= r do not
list their company affiliations.=C2=A0 This has two effects:


There was some time pressure here, and= one of those who later asked to sign (Wes) unfortunately came in too late = to be included.=C2=A0 I did not have time to ask whether Jeff or Martin wan= ted company affiliation included; I included it with Stephen because he sen= t me the affiliation he preferred when he asked to co-sign.=C2=A0 The failu= re to include other affiliations for them is down to that time pressure, no= thing more.

=C2=A0
1. By being signed by four IAB members who are identified primarily as
IAB members, the letter *appears* to be from the IAB.=C2=A0 I have passed this by three non-IETF friends, asking them who they think the letter
is from, and all three said, =E2=80=9CThe Internet Architecture Board.=E2= =80=9D


I hope you clarified it for them, and = I hope this exchange clarifies it for any members of the IETF community who= gathered the wrong impression.=C2=A0 But the letter is not signed on behal= f of the IAB, not on the IAB web site, and not attempting to present itself= as the work of the whole IAB.=C2=A0 It follows the same mechanisms we used= in the past, including in previous Amicus briefs (such as that signed for = the Wikimedia brief some time ago).

2. By using =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D this way,= those
signing the letter are effectively (whether by intent or not) using
their IAB positions to gain credibility for their personal opinions.

I think this is wildly inappropriate.=C2=A0 I think those of us in IETF
leadership should be scrupulously careful NOT to call out our IETF
affiliations this way unless we are speaking for the organization.
The fact that the letter refers to things that have been published
with IAB consensus doesn=E2=80=99t change the fact that the *letter* does n= ot
have IAB consensus, and we must be careful not to give the impression
that it does.

I=E2=80=99ve discussed this with Ted, who thinks that there=E2=80=99s nothi= ng wrong
with how the letter was signed and posted.=C2=A0 That disturbs me.=C2=A0 I = tried
to let it go, but I=E2=80=99m sufficiently bothered by it that I felt the n= eed
to take it to the community.=C2=A0 This is that.=C2=A0 Ted tells me that al= l IAB
members were invited to co-sign the letter, and that none brought up a
concern about the use of the =E2=80=9CMember, IAB=E2=80=9D affiliation.

I am sorry that this surprised you, but given your ow= n previous service on the IAB, I am equally surprised that you had not seen= similar usage before.=C2=A0 It has been done multiple times since I re-joi= ned 6 years ago.=C2=A0 I also anticipate that it may happen again in the fu= ture, with similar process (passing the document to the IAB for review firs= t, with affiliation).

regards,

<= /div>
Ted Hardie
As you think about this and =E2=80=94 I hope =E2=80=94 discuss it, please k= eep this in mind:

- I=E2=80=99m NOT talking about the content of the message and whether I do= or
don=E2=80=99t agree with it.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s not the point.=C2=A0 I ho= pe that as we discuss
this we do NOT go into the content, the politics, and so on.=C2=A0 Let=E2= =80=99s
please keep this highly charged issue out of IETF discussions.

- I=E2=80=99m NOT looking to beat Ted up here; what I want is for this not = to
happen again, and I hope the ensuing discussion supports that.



=C2=A0
--
Barry

--0000000000004a1dc50597ada634-- From nobody Mon Nov 18 23:04:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE95B12089D for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 23:04:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=terrym-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CcGD4jgPzv06 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 23:04:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com (mail-pg1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C67D120C67 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 23:03:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id e6so2919278pgi.11 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 23:03:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=terrym-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to :date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=hBS8ySW7DtXwuOYO+jka1Y42dIisUeLF9VElPwve18U=; b=Lz3YobWKC8v9dVyPiuO3LxDlPuMXEKZXmahHt0xIrj4nkKqJltSL0Cbbb+j3qAUV5D +BOj7Q2wWQo7gvHUGEG7eIGWcWQXNoWXDgfINPs4o6GCyYiwa49fgKiY747EvWt752BY otZjRkTuaL4wCPHvaCXQqc8+vyEWTRTtyJoW4izdD/BsCXUfkrC6m+SWHB94sXz7DfjL EqGRo4x4beI8VHqYnm+8970FaTjLqbvhPyd1fXKscIgJ876KJUcLgzm+2tO6XpIGMA7u X+peqRdlcVI+3a9osDsI5zxR4kYsUaFFlHv12yncJz9HG7/uBbonpe5j+SYohcp3uL2Q 3LYw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject :from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=hBS8ySW7DtXwuOYO+jka1Y42dIisUeLF9VElPwve18U=; b=an6ChbPC4Pds3LrsE7nUOhBkHQfaZqnMmQtSuyaVnq4Jrpjd8lG8q0gC/szJkRqq0z 0VTwoAXzowZEazWxM4uZPU8V/9w0/WkoL24DjxCX+ZqD/11dNOGIj54rgDWvfCYQXmss ApODCK+CrDtSEf8TEJLnUQ83yd9K9+x2732sr7J+i6KJqdRBxKdDkqsMhNczgwWTy6eV hnpKRl85cJOehWKN23ZupDCy6Qyf8YSyH7SV+NhrusaP0N2lP9HMk/C6ZDgZuPMXeUJl kpN1pNa7XNfkShnT1BrEZpQ6sT0oxIAiKP11Ds18DBXE5Bsahuv1979tHoN8cmQ2iSF6 VByA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWh98GqcnHAjVhCVbrd6rW5p48s0iufhDhmKDBeP+xzBaelRYZ1 55J+hu+7KzMW7IK79SRQEY5t1hJ4XiM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqztPky/iX3P7LLBsmdfH1A/yBFGcesiDeDPgBYhfajdJbx/l5UubnRWVYZ+LDu6Nx8VE/af1Q== X-Received: by 2002:a63:2057:: with SMTP id r23mr3784625pgm.357.1574147028008; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 23:03:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [31.133.150.49] (dhcp-9631.meeting.ietf.org. [31.133.150.49]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u7sm1885614pjx.19.2019.11.18.23.03.47 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 18 Nov 2019 23:03:47 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members From: Terry Manderson In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:03:46 +0800 Cc: IETF discussion list Message-Id: <2616945B-2066-4AF3-A412-4B70D1A185F0@terrym.net> References: To: Barry Leiba X-Mailer: iPad Mail (17B84) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 07:04:26 -0000 > On 19 Nov 2019, at 2:42 pm, Barry Leiba wrote: >=20 > I think this is wildly inappropriate. I think those of us in IETF > leadership should be scrupulously careful NOT to call out our IETF > affiliations this way unless we are speaking for the organization. > The fact that the letter refers to things that have been published > with IAB consensus doesn=E2=80=99t change the fact that the *letter* does n= ot > have IAB consensus, and we must be careful not to give the impression > that it does. >=20 Wildly? I don=E2=80=99t share that view. Generally inappropriate - yes. > happen again, and I hope the ensuing discussion supports that. >=20 The answer here, in my opinion, is fairly simple.=20 If the IAB make a statement, we know what that looks like. If a collective of individuals choose to make a statement then it is done wi= th ALL of their credentials (with permission), or none of their credentials.= If a company (as a part of their credentials list) decides to not allow som= eone to not include them, then I feel that person shouldn=E2=80=99t use any c= redentials aside from their own academic honorific. This is something that was drummed into me years ago by a brilliant legal re= p. Simply; =E2=80=9Cyou don=E2=80=99t speak for them, nor can you imply it, unl= ess you have their express permission - removing some, but keeping others as= sociates weight of support from an organisation=E2=80=9D I remember those wo= rds so clearly. Of course, YMMV. Cheers, Terry =20= From nobody Mon Nov 18 23:23:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 915F612083E for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 23:23:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YLFuRlt9zviB for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 23:23:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-sh.infomaniak.ch (smtp-sh.infomaniak.ch [128.65.195.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E578F120106 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 23:23:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-3-0000.mail.infomaniak.ch ([10.4.36.107]) by smtp-sh.infomaniak.ch (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id xAJ7N6B4001348 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 19 Nov 2019 08:23:07 +0100 Received: from [IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:b41b:96f6:b304:e657] (unknown [IPV6:2001:67c:370:128:b41b:96f6:b304:e657]) by smtp-3-0000.mail.infomaniak.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C801F10115CEA; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 08:23:05 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members From: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" In-Reply-To: <89270D87-7F6E-49ED-8500-5C97671F05F5@mnot.net> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:23:03 +0800 Cc: Barry Leiba , IETF discussion list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0F797FA5-2546-4696-A1E2-AF7BB7F2E8FD@trammell.ch> References: <89270D87-7F6E-49ED-8500-5C97671F05F5@mnot.net> To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Antivirus: Dr.Web (R) for Unix mail servers drweb plugin ver.6.0.2.8 X-Antivirus-Code: 0x100000 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 07:23:15 -0000 > On 19 Nov 2019, at 14:52, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > Hi Barry, >=20 > I didn't co-sign the letter, but frankly I would have (with = affiliation) if I wasn't quite as busy when it was put forth by Ted. For what it's worth, same. (Time zones are hard. That's a different = rant, though.) > If you're suggesting that IAB and IESG members can't ever use their = affiliation unless it's on a document approved by the entire body, I'm = going to strongly disagree.=20 It also goes against precedent; members of the IAB have signed letters, = amicus briefs, and so on with IAB affiliation when that affiliation is = the one that is relevant to the content of the letter.=20 Cheers, Brian > I think most people know the difference between a statement of a = member of Parliament and one by the entire body. This is not an = employment relationship, where putting a company next to your name does = have some impact. >=20 > I think we as a community want our leadership to be more like the = former than the latter. This idea that the leadership bodies are = homogenous and speak with a single voice is IMHO damaging and leads to = situations where it's perceived to be us-vs-them -- by both the members = of those bodies and the greater community. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 >=20 >> On 19 Nov 2019, at 2:42 pm, Barry Leiba = wrote: >>=20 >> Perhaps some of you have seen that Ted Hardie posted an open letter = on >> the Hong Kong high court=E2=80=99s injunction on Internet speech: >> = https://medium.com/@ted.ietf/an-open-letter-on-the-hong-kong-high-court-in= junction-on-internet-speech-7f0048df2f54 >> The letter is signed by Ted and is co-signed by three other IAB >> members, each signing as an individual: the letter is not from the = IAB >> and doesn=E2=80=99t claim to be. >>=20 >> Nevertheless, note that all signatories identify themselves as >> =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D, and three of = the four do not >> list their company affiliations. This has two effects: >>=20 >> 1. By being signed by four IAB members who are identified primarily = as >> IAB members, the letter *appears* to be from the IAB. I have passed >> this by three non-IETF friends, asking them who they think the letter >> is from, and all three said, =E2=80=9CThe Internet Architecture = Board.=E2=80=9D >>=20 >> 2. By using =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D = this way, those >> signing the letter are effectively (whether by intent or not) using >> their IAB positions to gain credibility for their personal opinions. >>=20 >> I think this is wildly inappropriate. I think those of us in IETF >> leadership should be scrupulously careful NOT to call out our IETF >> affiliations this way unless we are speaking for the organization. >> The fact that the letter refers to things that have been published >> with IAB consensus doesn=E2=80=99t change the fact that the *letter* = does not >> have IAB consensus, and we must be careful not to give the impression >> that it does. >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99ve discussed this with Ted, who thinks that there=E2=80=99s = nothing wrong >> with how the letter was signed and posted. That disturbs me. I = tried >> to let it go, but I=E2=80=99m sufficiently bothered by it that I felt = the need >> to take it to the community. This is that. Ted tells me that all = IAB >> members were invited to co-sign the letter, and that none brought up = a >> concern about the use of the =E2=80=9CMember, IAB=E2=80=9D = affiliation. >>=20 >> As you think about this and =E2=80=94 I hope =E2=80=94 discuss it, = please keep this in mind: >>=20 >> - I=E2=80=99m NOT talking about the content of the message and = whether I do or >> don=E2=80=99t agree with it. That=E2=80=99s not the point. I hope = that as we discuss >> this we do NOT go into the content, the politics, and so on. Let=E2=80= =99s >> please keep this highly charged issue out of IETF discussions. >>=20 >> - I=E2=80=99m NOT looking to beat Ted up here; what I want is for = this not to >> happen again, and I hope the ensuing discussion supports that. >>=20 >> --=20 >> Barry >>=20 >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 >=20 From nobody Mon Nov 18 23:31:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 156CF120878; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 23:31:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nic.cz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 33W0P3GkyHFK; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 23:31:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [217.31.204.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2919B120877; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 23:31:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from birdie (dhcp-9c3a.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.156.58]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 53917140C28; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 08:31:43 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1574148706; bh=3WEFQKndNLWI5p7Lq57wnXWA18dKwsWpKtaeEpLAN7E=; h=From:To:Date; b=TAP7P0NYpeUBmY40j8SYAl4QRBdrWKXJHWuVx/lvpmbt0mZplGahXe1fy7CrusHIH ChHdxw4IsOefKXlG78GAJXGaYgVGfIvWzYNEH0wjftixSCK5N2sUb8k9N7oKzVAzFd GExMEwDDjYNhbEF5bCFKAWS035m48uDPDkQvoEgE= Message-ID: <3da578887bfd0db091afc71fbe75c7abc66f157f.camel@nic.cz> Subject: Re: Yang update from IESG ? From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Michael Richardson , "iesg@ietf.org" , IETF Rinse Repeat Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:31:39 +0800 In-Reply-To: <7631.1574141192@dooku.sandelman.ca> References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01E70B0061@marchand> <10541.1574083581@dooku.sandelman.ca> <7631.1574141192@dooku.sandelman.ca> Organization: CZ.NIC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" User-Agent: Evolution 3.34.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.100.3 at mail.nic.cz X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 07:31:50 -0000 On Tue, 2019-11-19 at 13:26 +0800, Michael Richardson wrote: > Tim Wicinski wrote: > >> IANA has been doing it for more than five years for a couple of YANG > >> modules (six by now), and I am not aware of any troubles so far. > > > But that's work put onto the IANA pile, and some I* organization may > > want to understand the commitment. > > And, I don't understand how the products get updated. > Are they going to pull YANG modules from IANA? How often: hourly? daily? > yearly? Products get updated ad hoc, as soon as their implementors feel the need. This usually has to be accompanied with changes in the underlying system - actually implementing support for new registry entries etc. Lada > -- Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 From nobody Tue Nov 19 00:37:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F0AC120041 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 00:37:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.337 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.337 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cUHnjldVYKKw for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 00:37:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x432.google.com (mail-wr1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C0BF120B6F for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 00:37:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x432.google.com with SMTP id n1so22688031wra.10 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 00:37:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=+QEyJW61Kl60+w030ql/nj2dsv8ZKgU005fq1ESV+Ps=; b=qU0eCULCxCRcb3OR/a731HBf9I6R/eI1Squ8SrgfAPmLhR0hviS9npD5Z4sPOVyXM2 l/fxPRM5O70kwfaOjrkHNhOxss/dHRoLYOaz1wqi4roC7rxtAH/3cYcTCpBkQsnyAM/d 9dVSmKdNAy76Ionx3RxoWLCTMtpt8JruCxX8C4+sZBKijhBdGWELaSu9Q5RWUjICI0Vn A/kuwXCIPHJkCRHyFn6/XWVXZ4qXJHvCpcsgGD7+FSnaU6/kyzJiRTntQgidl7vJ3kU6 wELl3mTIR6aorXy19VGOobdJSJuNN6J7CgrLzeqfNYzCFZZ6h0bSjdF3y1DlBDUfjX/4 54/g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=+QEyJW61Kl60+w030ql/nj2dsv8ZKgU005fq1ESV+Ps=; b=L1x8gp0GhCZMxLl4iqAmTqwChWXZa9xuRKc29Z4Ps3gaQWLrgmcO9xh0wqsIGySZE3 PzpX2EDRP19PzxG5EROc3wFDyFGnUeZwcH4oW7xXVNmC6L3m7iCf+NjIo1+AznC80jyd jMagMXfG9ynU2KSjika/wyFdXMgkNFIoGpgG86uxZZ6MtSIUQyoigHAkX7A4Xmu4U/t8 II2fR7OC80orOlO4lJaqhtDhhhBrj7EKHCFA0yUBd6HdyZ+9E0QHnyfxzqs/X+flszfD LqelgIxrWgPs7Sn5z8422ryozL9TPn026ENKMgCKlCregKYz14AD0ikAHN4Q9iDC6K+D XGlw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXJKycCMpmoK2kujY0k5Fb9xt1rvu53LzI3Mjbrn8xTeGf79ZQX q4U/39e7AsO20zN/fDx19yP7I16S0S4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwa9wpZ5yUzCHPIxkLj9SPRXo9OzVlN5gGBCYAzWV7WcdIpLf9MqdFCh/TrkJMYraq8ljVvrg== X-Received: by 2002:adf:e942:: with SMTP id m2mr37944304wrn.26.1574152667784; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 00:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.190.233] ([101.100.166.67]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j66sm2135097wma.19.2019.11.19.00.37.45 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 19 Nov 2019 00:37:47 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6DEAF7F8-CC14-4C4C-B2AB-8EE869543B6E"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 16:37:39 +0800 In-Reply-To: <2616945B-2066-4AF3-A412-4B70D1A185F0@terrym.net> Cc: Bob Hinden , IETF To: Terry Manderson , Barry Leiba References: <2616945B-2066-4AF3-A412-4B70D1A185F0@terrym.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 08:37:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6DEAF7F8-CC14-4C4C-B2AB-8EE869543B6E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Terry, Barry, > On Nov 19, 2019, at 3:03 PM, Terry Manderson wrote: >=20 >> On 19 Nov 2019, at 2:42 pm, Barry Leiba = wrote: >>=20 >> I think this is wildly inappropriate. I think those of us in IETF >> leadership should be scrupulously careful NOT to call out our IETF >> affiliations this way unless we are speaking for the organization. >> The fact that the letter refers to things that have been published >> with IAB consensus doesn=E2=80=99t change the fact that the *letter* = does not >> have IAB consensus, and we must be careful not to give the impression >> that it does. >>=20 >=20 > Wildly? I don=E2=80=99t share that view. Generally inappropriate - = yes. I agree it was inappropriate. >=20 >> happen again, and I hope the ensuing discussion supports that. >>=20 >=20 > The answer here, in my opinion, is fairly simple. >=20 > If the IAB make a statement, we know what that looks like. >=20 > If a collective of individuals choose to make a statement then it is = done with ALL of their credentials (with permission), or none of their = credentials. If a company (as a part of their credentials list) decides = to not allow someone to not include them, then I feel that person = shouldn=E2=80=99t use any credentials aside from their own academic = honorific. I think that is correct for the reasons you state. Note, if I had been asked, I would have signed it. I would have not = included my day job affiliation, nor any other organization I am = involved with. I would be fine if Ted adds my name to the letter. Bob >=20 > This is something that was drummed into me years ago by a brilliant = legal rep. > Simply; =E2=80=9Cyou don=E2=80=99t speak for them, nor can you imply = it, unless you have their express permission - removing some, but = keeping others associates weight of support from an organisation=E2=80=9D = I remember those words so clearly. >=20 > Of course, YMMV. >=20 > Cheers, > Terry >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_6DEAF7F8-CC14-4C4C-B2AB-8EE869543B6E Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl3TqdMACgkQrut0EXfn u6hc1ggAtfqvc1+MByoOkhmQ8Dnm6DN7Y5t5S+M+3obnpMqwzPvmWMsEdiXjVtrM Pvfb30x5BxQ/T1rJG7Ro+p+pzesnsnZEOc9NMSCVl/8HELeYSSKLkcezW3nJzVSo NYJBuQ9YvlwfbBfidHjX1YqZ2AAeNvzlehHxE2IrpV/R9V3yDhJ7c4eTtb7/FtAl 7i0nYpD4llVWfREsgd4LPAfbDEr3l4wc5nzP4gyStv5VWrwiNa+vHt7ZVXzqE7wC C67w4BlwD30slScNhx5c/wwNX5GBdFPhQQ1VfNw3RRHBksjD9xdUa0Fj7uaAj7HS qKDYUOcUQh+v3E7pLkh7XeXhEbbeqQ== =5huU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_6DEAF7F8-CC14-4C4C-B2AB-8EE869543B6E-- From nobody Tue Nov 19 00:48:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AEA31208BD for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 00:48:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uEHziVyyrxZ0 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 00:48:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30FAB1208C9 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 00:48:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1574153304; x=1574758104; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=zOko0v92 V09SVdFOGY9qH+IozAO8ujq0UTbYBtcGKXU=; b=QxZQ31F6aXOREsFmhHyCaIQC 2zpJCWubRboF3u/6PrkDreACVGWnbKYubcxAwjWI+g3wD0ckKlvH3ORPAKNBIfmJ tRdXlW+CNWyROxYS6/7igH3Fw3JgAf7XmZKqbGvmz+ML2VEBhm9h6MbmhSZuSheu Wdlp5qm4++Gp6KFtRYM= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:48:24 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:48:23 +0100 Received: from [172.20.4.214] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50006472789.msg for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:48:22 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.10 X-MDHelo: [172.20.4.214] X-MDArrival-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:48:22 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1226fef138=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ietf@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1f.0.191110 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 16:48:12 +0800 Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: IETF discussion list Message-ID: <0F893F23-FDEF-45F0-9A5B-839A1E4DB0E8@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members References: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 08:48:34 -0000 While I believe that anyone has the right to state his position at any orga= nization, never mind is paid or not (unless a contractual clause disallows = that), I think that when it is not an official position of that organizatio= n, it should be done stating clearly "that is a personal opinion". Something in the line of a footnote clearly indicating that this letter is = not the "official position of the IAB" (for this specific case). Otherwise, tomorrow, a few of us can sign a similar letter showing below ou= r names "Member, IETF", and who is reading it, probably will not recognize = that we aren't "empowered" to sign as IETF, as we are just a bunch of parti= cipants, but not speaking from the IETF. And so, clearly agree with Barry here. =20 Regards, Jordi @jordipalet =20 =20 =EF=BB=BFEl 19/11/19 14:42, "ietf en nombre de Barry Leiba" escribi=C3=B3: Perhaps some of you have seen that Ted Hardie posted an open letter on the Hong Kong high court=E2=80=99s injunction on Internet speech: https://medium.com/@ted.ietf/an-open-letter-on-the-hong-kong-high-court= -injunction-on-internet-speech-7f0048df2f54 The letter is signed by Ted and is co-signed by three other IAB members, each signing as an individual: the letter is not from the IAB and doesn=E2=80=99t claim to be. =20 Nevertheless, note that all signatories identify themselves as =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D, and three of the= four do not list their company affiliations. This has two effects: =20 1. By being signed by four IAB members who are identified primarily as IAB members, the letter *appears* to be from the IAB. I have passed this by three non-IETF friends, asking them who they think the letter is from, and all three said, =E2=80=9CThe Internet Architecture Board.= =E2=80=9D =20 2. By using =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D this = way, those signing the letter are effectively (whether by intent or not) using their IAB positions to gain credibility for their personal opinions. =20 I think this is wildly inappropriate. I think those of us in IETF leadership should be scrupulously careful NOT to call out our IETF affiliations this way unless we are speaking for the organization. The fact that the letter refers to things that have been published with IAB consensus doesn=E2=80=99t change the fact that the *letter* do= es not have IAB consensus, and we must be careful not to give the impression that it does. =20 I=E2=80=99ve discussed this with Ted, who thinks that there=E2=80=99s n= othing wrong with how the letter was signed and posted. That disturbs me. I tried to let it go, but I=E2=80=99m sufficiently bothered by it that I felt t= he need to take it to the community. This is that. Ted tells me that all IAB members were invited to co-sign the letter, and that none brought up a concern about the use of the =E2=80=9CMember, IAB=E2=80=9D affiliation. =20 As you think about this and =E2=80=94 I hope =E2=80=94 discuss it, plea= se keep this in mind: =20 - I=E2=80=99m NOT talking about the content of the message and whether = I do or don=E2=80=99t agree with it. That=E2=80=99s not the point. I hope tha= t as we discuss this we do NOT go into the content, the politics, and so on. Let=E2=80= =99s please keep this highly charged issue out of IETF discussions. =20 - I=E2=80=99m NOT looking to beat Ted up here; what I want is for this = not to happen again, and I hope the ensuing discussion supports that. =20 --=20 Barry =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Tue Nov 19 00:50:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 868F31208D4; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 00:50:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.436 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oe7WvkHkwlMB; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 00:50:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06A291200B9; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 00:50:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:6e88:14ff:fe34:93bc]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84B691F450; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 08:50:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id D82BC1376; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 16:50:35 +0800 (+08) From: Michael Richardson To: Ladislav Lhotka cc: "iesg\@ietf.org" , IETF Rinse Repeat Subject: Re: Yang update from IESG ? In-reply-to: <3da578887bfd0db091afc71fbe75c7abc66f157f.camel@nic.cz> References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01E70B0061@marchand> <10541.1574083581@dooku.sandelman.ca> <7631.1574141192@dooku.sandelman.ca> <3da578887bfd0db091afc71fbe75c7abc66f157f.camel@nic.cz> Comments: In-reply-to Ladislav Lhotka message dated "Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:31:39 +0800." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 16:50:35 +0800 Message-ID: <7882.1574153435@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 08:50:43 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > On Tue, 2019-11-19 at 13:26 +0800, Michael Richardson wrote: >> Tim Wicinski wrote: >> IANA has been doing it f= or >> more than five years for a couple of YANG >> modules (six by now), a= nd >> I am not aware of any troubles so far. >>=20 >> > But that's work put onto the IANA pile, and some I* organization m= ay >> > want to understand the commitment. >>=20 >> And, I don't understand how the products get updated. Are they going >> to pull YANG modules from IANA? How often: hourly? daily? yearly? > Products get updated ad hoc, as soon as their implementors feel the > need. This usually has to be accompanied with changes in the underlyi= ng > system - actually implementing support for new registry entries etc. So if software (including management software) needs explicit support for n= ew IANA entries (in for instance, lists of ciphers), then why is it better for the (human) programmer to download a new YANG module than to just read the = IANA web pages (or .XML equivalent)? (It's not like the YANG description will have executable code for SHA4 or s= omething) =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl3TrNsACgkQlUzhVv38 QpCV5wgAq7fBiKFcyrHci5Mtz2XOV8pl2iEKniinpoFDvkfqnkrj3x7xHToGD+le Jl0uOaVzcBdPGCX4pM2Px2D7kuhIAFKQR+6XfLRjnPe8bzGti498arn21wajN+lt VPX3Rgx1y7Lg00X3+fo3w7IuEdBxB4e0EotxLm+B8wVKTXA1BS3TVI1gov3K9X5O MMYIq2bBtW0E95WFDS3Q29yvaHNi3iZXt1zhvnwdF9kpIuM6nCnH+gppz2A148i1 J4Njs3+szTzqZ5vL2SeJNRtOjJd5UE67l5QDv2q7HbaMJHQfR0lxepuc7/pPSZv8 TeXHqXNtyRhYrKB9cq9fxtOKEsW19Q== =h9ED -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Nov 19 00:59:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A248C1208EA for ; 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Tue, 19 Nov 2019 03:59:46 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <0F893F23-FDEF-45F0-9A5B-839A1E4DB0E8@consulintel.es> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 16:59:43 +0800 Cc: IETF discussion list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6964E3F0-06EC-4770-A0B2-E572E0240D59@mnot.net> References: <0F893F23-FDEF-45F0-9A5B-839A1E4DB0E8@consulintel.es> To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3601.0.10) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 08:59:55 -0000 I suspect part of the issue here is that the letter is signed *only* by = IAB members, not mixed with others - and so I agree that such a = clarification would have been helpful. Question: Would people have felt such a clarification were necessary if = it these names were mixed in with non-IAB (and non-IETF) names and = affiliations? And, would people have had an issue if it were signed only by one person = who used their affiliation (as a *member* of the IAB, not the whole)? To put it another way -- sometimes I give talks and mention that I'm a = member of the IAB, and sometimes I omit other affiliations that I hold = or have held (for example, it's rare that I need to trot out that I = served as president of my local primary school for several years). Are = people seriously suggesting that this is out of line? Cheers, > On 19 Nov 2019, at 4:48 pm, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ = wrote: >=20 > While I believe that anyone has the right to state his position at any = organization, never mind is paid or not (unless a contractual clause = disallows that), I think that when it is not an official position of = that organization, it should be done stating clearly "that is a personal = opinion". >=20 > Something in the line of a footnote clearly indicating that this = letter is not the "official position of the IAB" (for this specific = case). >=20 > Otherwise, tomorrow, a few of us can sign a similar letter showing = below our names "Member, IETF", and who is reading it, probably will not = recognize that we aren't "empowered" to sign as IETF, as we are just a = bunch of participants, but not speaking from the IETF. >=20 > And so, clearly agree with Barry here. >=20 >=20 > Regards, > Jordi > @jordipalet >=20 >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BFEl 19/11/19 14:42, "ietf en nombre de Barry Leiba" = escribi=C3=B3= : >=20 > Perhaps some of you have seen that Ted Hardie posted an open letter = on > the Hong Kong high court=E2=80=99s injunction on Internet speech: > = https://medium.com/@ted.ietf/an-open-letter-on-the-hong-kong-high-court-in= junction-on-internet-speech-7f0048df2f54 > The letter is signed by Ted and is co-signed by three other IAB > members, each signing as an individual: the letter is not from the = IAB > and doesn=E2=80=99t claim to be. >=20 > Nevertheless, note that all signatories identify themselves as > =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D, and three of = the four do not > list their company affiliations. This has two effects: >=20 > 1. By being signed by four IAB members who are identified primarily = as > IAB members, the letter *appears* to be from the IAB. I have = passed > this by three non-IETF friends, asking them who they think the = letter > is from, and all three said, =E2=80=9CThe Internet Architecture = Board.=E2=80=9D >=20 > 2. By using =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D = this way, those > signing the letter are effectively (whether by intent or not) using > their IAB positions to gain credibility for their personal = opinions. >=20 > I think this is wildly inappropriate. I think those of us in IETF > leadership should be scrupulously careful NOT to call out our IETF > affiliations this way unless we are speaking for the organization. > The fact that the letter refers to things that have been published > with IAB consensus doesn=E2=80=99t change the fact that the = *letter* does not > have IAB consensus, and we must be careful not to give the = impression > that it does. >=20 > I=E2=80=99ve discussed this with Ted, who thinks that there=E2=80=99s= nothing wrong > with how the letter was signed and posted. That disturbs me. I = tried > to let it go, but I=E2=80=99m sufficiently bothered by it that I = felt the need > to take it to the community. This is that. Ted tells me that all = IAB > members were invited to co-sign the letter, and that none brought = up a > concern about the use of the =E2=80=9CMember, IAB=E2=80=9D = affiliation. >=20 > As you think about this and =E2=80=94 I hope =E2=80=94 discuss it, = please keep this in mind: >=20 > - I=E2=80=99m NOT talking about the content of the message and = whether I do or > don=E2=80=99t agree with it. That=E2=80=99s not the point. I hope = that as we discuss > this we do NOT go into the content, the politics, and so on. = Let=E2=80=99s > please keep this highly charged issue out of IETF discussions. >=20 > - I=E2=80=99m NOT looking to beat Ted up here; what I want is for = this not to > happen again, and I hope the ensuing discussion supports that. >=20 > --=20 > Barry >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use = of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized = disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this = information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly = prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the = intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution = or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including = attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal = offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this = communication and delete it. >=20 >=20 >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Nov 19 01:08:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 244881208CA for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:08:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dCwrJrBoypVP for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:07:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x22f.google.com (mail-oi1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB1011200B6 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:07:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id j7so18223723oib.3 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:07:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YOmm3e3ggxXXnw6YjlU99Me09vm29sfydD0mv3zygEk=; b=Oc+2L+F0O4hZvybc0KIS+azXcY8DRZRnM43mMk32YVLha2ulPIiGZwAMmV5pwhBCbs ERmOxvtLup8Hu7+gddUGpsVFPwBoEreGikSq8zQ+8X7PArIYP58IsomVJDLNIWv0k0r2 6qaZFX8vTLn17xR1pDLJf/jlkykrgnbdrU95q4Bojja4gnBFfX7icBOdENWKPJ01p2Zq dpaB2DQzn90o4TqBCr8jaXzmuOjmYfm7HF0Lu+TiE/Lh6HqglWgE5MWES5HUA4yCtm9H qWadGEav+x+0P7dDzTngIWsCE9pqjdfy7dXJnuw6wPyHKUZhNGfBlAylGyzif8ugHSI6 XYiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YOmm3e3ggxXXnw6YjlU99Me09vm29sfydD0mv3zygEk=; b=IROB0Y8CHxpwyPSxIxWJIddht8RJmU/EHhQAOJiJMg7WM0W27NwpBoL7I/6Dho88h1 s+xk14mOi2Cjbs/bb/r8AAy1rb703QgaApEwR0MstpeO0HiySUM+T8W1nzo36BzWZ9Qt XEjkXpSPpzgZ7v0alm2zziIRKvmMbdsKTqm5T9mHItVl3UdoRaraYPAW5cSjifwTfAKe JpyQz51wLl7U9M4gUMbf/11xzqGbxdwwXxU9clR8PrhrmTEd30cLvbUn/2br/KP5aSBk +Q5M+u9n5RJsaF3KV10I4x2VS9IlZ0WaVdVtvaSktvwOqmPbwkFqDhl1vJpj6a2EWrCi ZM8Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUiv+mOhmn1lsQMx0eYaMl0qyAL0Vcz0NwrY/WoMvZUk9+UAyKt aZHnHqqrIpoWmi9tdsbSxokHoOiBKQuafem0aHBkMzhW X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqygKoBEJGyLjgS1/IxVv0WYkc61sfD5Z5cbrjVhPbk1LWTcCV6mLy/8BUcGvwvfF3gtYGVwV1v3n1ENsc1MRwk= X-Received: by 2002:aca:d509:: with SMTP id m9mr3016443oig.164.1574154474342; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:07:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0F893F23-FDEF-45F0-9A5B-839A1E4DB0E8@consulintel.es> <6964E3F0-06EC-4770-A0B2-E572E0240D59@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <6964E3F0-06EC-4770-A0B2-E572E0240D59@mnot.net> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 04:07:18 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members To: Mark Nottingham Cc: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , IETF discussion list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000043cdb50597af669b" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:08:00 -0000 --00000000000043cdb50597af669b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 4:00 AM Mark Nottingham wrote: > I suspect part of the issue here is that the letter is signed *only* by > IAB members, not mixed with others - and so I agree that such a > clarification would have been helpful. > > Question: Would people have felt such a clarification were necessary if i= t > these names were mixed in with non-IAB (and non-IETF) names and > affiliations? > > And, would people have had an issue if it were signed only by one person > who used their affiliation (as a *member* of the IAB, not the whole)? > > To put it another way -- sometimes I give talks and mention that I'm a > member of the IAB, and sometimes I omit other affiliations that I hold or > have held (for example, it's rare that I need to trot out that I served a= s > president of my local primary school for several years). Are people > seriously suggesting that this is out of line? > For talks, you can say that, but you are also supposed to say that you are speaking for yourself unless sanctioned to speak on behalf of the body. It's usually on the cover slide. Best regards, Kathleen > Cheers, > > > > On 19 Nov 2019, at 4:48 pm, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > > While I believe that anyone has the right to state his position at any > organization, never mind is paid or not (unless a contractual clause > disallows that), I think that when it is not an official position of that > organization, it should be done stating clearly "that is a personal > opinion". > > > > Something in the line of a footnote clearly indicating that this letter > is not the "official position of the IAB" (for this specific case). > > > > Otherwise, tomorrow, a few of us can sign a similar letter showing belo= w > our names "Member, IETF", and who is reading it, probably will not > recognize that we aren't "empowered" to sign as IETF, as we are just a > bunch of participants, but not speaking from the IETF. > > > > And so, clearly agree with Barry here. > > > > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > @jordipalet > > > > > > > > =EF=BB=BFEl 19/11/19 14:42, "ietf en nombre de Barry Leiba" < > ietf-bounces@ietf.org en nombre de barryleiba@computer.org> escribi=C3=B3= : > > > > Perhaps some of you have seen that Ted Hardie posted an open letter = on > > the Hong Kong high court=E2=80=99s injunction on Internet speech: > > > https://medium.com/@ted.ietf/an-open-letter-on-the-hong-kong-high-court-i= njunction-on-internet-speech-7f0048df2f54 > > The letter is signed by Ted and is co-signed by three other IAB > > members, each signing as an individual: the letter is not from the I= AB > > and doesn=E2=80=99t claim to be. > > > > Nevertheless, note that all signatories identify themselves as > > =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D, and three of = the four do not > > list their company affiliations. This has two effects: > > > > 1. By being signed by four IAB members who are identified primarily = as > > IAB members, the letter *appears* to be from the IAB. I have passed > > this by three non-IETF friends, asking them who they think the lette= r > > is from, and all three said, =E2=80=9CThe Internet Architecture Boar= d.=E2=80=9D > > > > 2. By using =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D th= is way, those > > signing the letter are effectively (whether by intent or not) using > > their IAB positions to gain credibility for their personal opinions. > > > > I think this is wildly inappropriate. I think those of us in IETF > > leadership should be scrupulously careful NOT to call out our IETF > > affiliations this way unless we are speaking for the organization. > > The fact that the letter refers to things that have been published > > with IAB consensus doesn=E2=80=99t change the fact that the *letter*= does not > > have IAB consensus, and we must be careful not to give the impressio= n > > that it does. > > > > I=E2=80=99ve discussed this with Ted, who thinks that there=E2=80=99= s nothing wrong > > with how the letter was signed and posted. That disturbs me. I tri= ed > > to let it go, but I=E2=80=99m sufficiently bothered by it that I fel= t the need > > to take it to the community. This is that. Ted tells me that all I= AB > > members were invited to co-sign the letter, and that none brought up= a > > concern about the use of the =E2=80=9CMember, IAB=E2=80=9D affiliati= on. > > > > As you think about this and =E2=80=94 I hope =E2=80=94 discuss it, p= lease keep this > in mind: > > > > - I=E2=80=99m NOT talking about the content of the message and wheth= er I do or > > don=E2=80=99t agree with it. That=E2=80=99s not the point. I hope = that as we discuss > > this we do NOT go into the content, the politics, and so on. Let=E2= =80=99s > > please keep this highly charged issue out of IETF discussions. > > > > - I=E2=80=99m NOT looking to beat Ted up here; what I want is for th= is not to > > happen again, and I hope the ensuing discussion supports that. > > > > -- > > Barry > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > IPv4 is over > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > http://www.theipv6company.com > > The IPv6 Company > > > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of > the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized > disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this > information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly > prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the > intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or > use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including > attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal > offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this > communication and delete it. > > > > > > > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --00000000000043cdb50597af669b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 4:00 AM Mark = Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote= :
I suspect part= of the issue here is that the letter is signed *only* by IAB members, not = mixed with others - and so I agree that such a clarification would have bee= n helpful.

Question: Would people have felt such a clarification were necessary if it = these names were mixed in with non-IAB (and non-IETF) names and affiliation= s?

And, would people have had an issue if it were signed only by one person wh= o used their affiliation (as a *member* of the IAB, not the whole)?

To put it another way -- sometimes I give talks and mention that I'm a = member of the IAB, and sometimes I omit other affiliations that I hold or h= ave held (for example, it's rare that I need to trot out that I served = as president of my local primary school for several years). Are people seri= ously suggesting that this is out of line?

<= div>For talks, you can say that, but you are also supposed to say that you = are speaking for yourself unless sanctioned to speak on behalf of the body.= =C2=A0 It's usually on the cover slide.

Best r= egards,
Kathleen


Cheers,


> On 19 Nov 2019, at 4:48 pm, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=3D40consuli= ntel.es@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> While I believe that anyone has the right to state his position at any= organization, never mind is paid or not (unless a contractual clause disal= lows that), I think that when it is not an official position of that organi= zation, it should be done stating clearly "that is a personal opinion&= quot;.
>
> Something in the line of a footnote clearly indicating that this lette= r is not the "official position of the IAB" (for this specific ca= se).
>
> Otherwise, tomorrow, a few of us can sign a similar letter showing bel= ow our names "Member, IETF", and who is reading it, probably will= not recognize that we aren't "empowered" to sign as IETF, as= we are just a bunch of participants, but not speaking from the IETF.
>
> And so, clearly agree with Barry here.
>
>
> Regards,
> Jordi
> @jordipalet
>
>
>
> =EF=BB=BFEl 19/11/19 14:42, "ietf en nombre de Barry Leiba" = <ietf-bounces= @ietf.org en nombre de barryleiba@computer.org> escribi=C3=B3:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Perhaps some of you have seen that Ted Hardie posted an o= pen letter on
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the Hong Kong high court=E2=80=99s injunction on Internet= speech:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://medium.com/@ted.ietf/an-open-lett= er-on-the-hong-kong-high-court-injunction-on-internet-speech-7f0048df2f54
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The letter is signed by Ted and is co-signed by three oth= er IAB
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 members, each signing as an individual: the letter is not= from the IAB
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and doesn=E2=80=99t claim to be.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Nevertheless, note that all signatories identify themselv= es as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D, an= d three of the four do not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 list their company affiliations.=C2=A0 This has two effec= ts:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1. By being signed by four IAB members who are identified= primarily as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IAB members, the letter *appears* to be from the IAB.=C2= =A0 I have passed
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this by three non-IETF friends, asking them who they thin= k the letter
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is from, and all three said, =E2=80=9CThe Internet Archit= ecture Board.=E2=80=9D
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2. By using =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board= =E2=80=9D this way, those
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 signing the letter are effectively (whether by intent or = not) using
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 their IAB positions to gain credibility for their persona= l opinions.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think this is wildly inappropriate.=C2=A0 I think those= of us in IETF
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 leadership should be scrupulously careful NOT to call out= our IETF
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 affiliations this way unless we are speaking for the orga= nization.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The fact that the letter refers to things that have been = published
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 with IAB consensus doesn=E2=80=99t change the fact that t= he *letter* does not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 have IAB consensus, and we must be careful not to give th= e impression
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that it does.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I=E2=80=99ve discussed this with Ted, who thinks that the= re=E2=80=99s nothing wrong
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 with how the letter was signed and posted.=C2=A0 That dis= turbs me.=C2=A0 I tried
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to let it go, but I=E2=80=99m sufficiently bothered by it= that I felt the need
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to take it to the community.=C2=A0 This is that.=C2=A0 Te= d tells me that all IAB
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 members were invited to co-sign the letter, and that none= brought up a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 concern about the use of the =E2=80=9CMember, IAB=E2=80= =9D affiliation.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 As you think about this and =E2=80=94 I hope =E2=80=94 di= scuss it, please keep this in mind:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - I=E2=80=99m NOT talking about the content of the messag= e and whether I do or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 don=E2=80=99t agree with it.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s not the= point.=C2=A0 I hope that as we discuss
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this we do NOT go into the content, the politics, and so = on.=C2=A0 Let=E2=80=99s
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 please keep this highly charged issue out of IETF discuss= ions.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - I=E2=80=99m NOT looking to beat Ted up here; what I wan= t is for this not to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 happen again, and I hope the ensuing discussion supports = that.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Barry
>
>
>
>
>
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.theipv6company.com
> The IPv6 Company
>
> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged o= r confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of = the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclos= ure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even= if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be= considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aw= are that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of th= is information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly pr= ohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the o= riginal sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
>
>
>

--
Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/



--

Best regards,
Kathleen
--00000000000043cdb50597af669b-- From nobody Tue Nov 19 01:10:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9450F1208CA for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:10:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a8_EHAOzWb9E for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:10:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF97B1200B7 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:10:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1574154605; x=1574759405; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=9hiGoOwA9/Qg3WinugSZQxo/pSZpl+qYJsmQEmCoHN8=; b=wPLHef990yYbf eGxwpVVeWj9fGiIOEaVsRWjwviir11jCc8G+RDi6ljwvKVyKO7/Ytu9P9zufjKlU RLHLocqCJi2IOiWIXfD+UwQAJ8V9szFEW/WWAr4KmlLxfrWfT+8iHBHVHL6Kc+6O N4vJOPgzYk5JKC7v83x3KsGq9qzSds= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:10:05 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:10:05 +0100 Received: from [172.20.4.214] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50006472833.msg for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:10:04 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.10 X-MDHelo: [172.20.4.214] X-MDArrival-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:10:04 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1226fef138=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ietf@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1f.0.191110 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 17:09:53 +0800 Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Mark Nottingham CC: IETF discussion list Message-ID: <683EF30F-7EB0-424F-AFC7-F342BFB59642@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members References: <0F893F23-FDEF-45F0-9A5B-839A1E4DB0E8@consulintel.es> <6964E3F0-06EC-4770-A0B2-E572E0240D59@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <6964E3F0-06EC-4770-A0B2-E572E0240D59@mnot.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:10:20 -0000 Hi Mark, I know is not always easy. I use some times my company name and even email = instead of a private one even if I'm speaking on my own personal capacity .= .. I feel that we all in general, should clear state in which capacity we a= re speaking. Is good, nice and convient to say "I work here and volunteer h= ere" as well, of course, but if clarified if it is an IAB (in this case) vi= ew of personal one. However, in all the cases that you mention, the solution that I mention, ma= kes it very clear. In case all the folks that sign are on their own, a foot= note "stating it" or alternatively a similar text, below each of the signat= ures (when there is mixture of cases). Regards, Jordi @jordipalet =20 =20 =EF=BB=BFEl 19/11/19 17:00, "ietf en nombre de Mark Nottingham" escribi=C3=B3: I suspect part of the issue here is that the letter is signed *only* by= IAB members, not mixed with others - and so I agree that such a clarificat= ion would have been helpful. =20 Question: Would people have felt such a clarification were necessary if= it these names were mixed in with non-IAB (and non-IETF) names and affilia= tions? =20 And, would people have had an issue if it were signed only by one perso= n who used their affiliation (as a *member* of the IAB, not the whole)? =20 To put it another way -- sometimes I give talks and mention that I'm a = member of the IAB, and sometimes I omit other affiliations that I hold or h= ave held (for example, it's rare that I need to trot out that I served as p= resident of my local primary school for several years). Are people seriousl= y suggesting that this is out of line? =20 Cheers, =20 =20 > On 19 Nov 2019, at 4:48 pm, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >=20 > While I believe that anyone has the right to state his position at an= y organization, never mind is paid or not (unless a contractual clause disa= llows that), I think that when it is not an official position of that organ= ization, it should be done stating clearly "that is a personal opinion". >=20 > Something in the line of a footnote clearly indicating that this lett= er is not the "official position of the IAB" (for this specific case). >=20 > Otherwise, tomorrow, a few of us can sign a similar letter showing be= low our names "Member, IETF", and who is reading it, probably will not reco= gnize that we aren't "empowered" to sign as IETF, as we are just a bunch of= participants, but not speaking from the IETF. >=20 > And so, clearly agree with Barry here. >=20 >=20 > Regards, > Jordi > @jordipalet >=20 >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BFEl 19/11/19 14:42, "ietf en nombre de Barry Leiba" escribi=C3=B3: >=20 > Perhaps some of you have seen that Ted Hardie posted an open lette= r on > the Hong Kong high court=E2=80=99s injunction on Internet speech: > https://medium.com/@ted.ietf/an-open-letter-on-the-hong-kong-high-= court-injunction-on-internet-speech-7f0048df2f54 > The letter is signed by Ted and is co-signed by three other IAB > members, each signing as an individual: the letter is not from the= IAB > and doesn=E2=80=99t claim to be. >=20 > Nevertheless, note that all signatories identify themselves as > =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D, and three o= f the four do not > list their company affiliations. This has two effects: >=20 > 1. By being signed by four IAB members who are identified primaril= y as > IAB members, the letter *appears* to be from the IAB. I have pass= ed > this by three non-IETF friends, asking them who they think the let= ter > is from, and all three said, =E2=80=9CThe Internet Architecture Bo= ard.=E2=80=9D >=20 > 2. By using =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D = this way, those > signing the letter are effectively (whether by intent or not) usin= g > their IAB positions to gain credibility for their personal opinion= s. >=20 > I think this is wildly inappropriate. I think those of us in IETF > leadership should be scrupulously careful NOT to call out our IETF > affiliations this way unless we are speaking for the organization. > The fact that the letter refers to things that have been published > with IAB consensus doesn=E2=80=99t change the fact that the *lette= r* does not > have IAB consensus, and we must be careful not to give the impress= ion > that it does. >=20 > I=E2=80=99ve discussed this with Ted, who thinks that there=E2=80= =99s nothing wrong > with how the letter was signed and posted. That disturbs me. I t= ried > to let it go, but I=E2=80=99m sufficiently bothered by it that I f= elt the need > to take it to the community. This is that. Ted tells me that all= IAB > members were invited to co-sign the letter, and that none brought = up a > concern about the use of the =E2=80=9CMember, IAB=E2=80=9D affilia= tion. >=20 > As you think about this and =E2=80=94 I hope =E2=80=94 discuss it,= please keep this in mind: >=20 > - I=E2=80=99m NOT talking about the content of the message and whe= ther I do or > don=E2=80=99t agree with it. That=E2=80=99s not the point. I hop= e that as we discuss > this we do NOT go into the content, the politics, and so on. Let= =E2=80=99s > please keep this highly charged issue out of IETF discussions. >=20 > - I=E2=80=99m NOT looking to beat Ted up here; what I want is for = this not to > happen again, and I hope the ensuing discussion supports that. >=20 > --=20 > Barry >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of= the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclo= sure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, eve= n if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will b= e considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be a= ware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of t= his information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly p= rohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the = original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. >=20 >=20 >=20 =20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. 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Tue, 19 Nov 2019 04:18:09 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , "Mark Nottingham" CC: IETF discussion list Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members Thread-Topic: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members Thread-Index: AQHVnqSKItqiEGhck0y+5OpP3sp26qeSgq4AgAADOICAAALXgIAAiGsA Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:18:08 +0000 Message-ID: <5F623051-9903-4641-A057-C989435250A0@akamai.com> References: <0F893F23-FDEF-45F0-9A5B-839A1E4DB0E8@consulintel.es> <6964E3F0-06EC-4770-A0B2-E572E0240D59@mnot.net> <683EF30F-7EB0-424F-AFC7-F342BFB59642@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: <683EF30F-7EB0-424F-AFC7-F342BFB59642@consulintel.es> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1f.0.191110 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.218.224] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <13BB7DAA007B4144AE0732BAC39E486F@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2019-11-19_02:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-1911190088 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.95,18.0.572 definitions=2019-11-19_02:2019-11-15,2019-11-19 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=979 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 clxscore=1011 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1910280000 definitions=main-1911190087 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:18:45 -0000 SSB0aG91Z2h0IGFkZGluZyAiQWZmaWxpYXRpb24gZ2l2ZW4gZm9yIGlkZW50aWZpY2F0aW9uIHB1 cnBvc2VzIG9ubHkiIHNvbWV3aGVyZSBuZWFyIHRoZSAic2lnbmF0dXJlIiB3YXMgdGhlIGNvbW1v biBwcmFjdGljZS4NCg0K From nobody Tue Nov 19 01:19:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6211F120C1C for ; 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Tue, 19 Nov 2019 04:18:45 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <683EF30F-7EB0-424F-AFC7-F342BFB59642@consulintel.es> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 17:18:41 +0800 Cc: IETF discussion list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0F893F23-FDEF-45F0-9A5B-839A1E4DB0E8@consulintel.es> <6964E3F0-06EC-4770-A0B2-E572E0240D59@mnot.net> <683EF30F-7EB0-424F-AFC7-F342BFB59642@consulintel.es> To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3601.0.10) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:18:59 -0000 Hi Jordi, Yes, I agree that clarity here is good. However, "Member of IAB" is = pretty specific, just as "Member of Parliament" is specific; it is = clearly distinguishing the part from the whole. There are mitigating factors here (as discussed) where it could have = been more clear, and I appreciate the need for honest attempts to be as = clear as possible. What I was trying to get at was that I suspect that a = large part of the problem is that a letter that is only signed by = members of a board can easily give the impression that it's from that = board -- something that others have noticed too. Avoiding that = impression is good, but that doesn't mean we should generalise this = instance into a rule about all mentions of affiliation. Cheers, > On 19 Nov 2019, at 5:09 pm, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ = wrote: >=20 > Hi Mark, >=20 > I know is not always easy. I use some times my company name and even = email instead of a private one even if I'm speaking on my own personal = capacity ... I feel that we all in general, should clear state in which = capacity we are speaking. Is good, nice and convient to say "I work here = and volunteer here" as well, of course, but if clarified if it is an IAB = (in this case) view of personal one. >=20 > However, in all the cases that you mention, the solution that I = mention, makes it very clear. In case all the folks that sign are on = their own, a footnote "stating it" or alternatively a similar text, = below each of the signatures (when there is mixture of cases). >=20 > Regards, > Jordi > @jordipalet >=20 >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BFEl 19/11/19 17:00, "ietf en nombre de Mark Nottingham" = escribi=C3=B3: >=20 > I suspect part of the issue here is that the letter is signed = *only* by IAB members, not mixed with others - and so I agree that such = a clarification would have been helpful. >=20 > Question: Would people have felt such a clarification were = necessary if it these names were mixed in with non-IAB (and non-IETF) = names and affiliations? >=20 > And, would people have had an issue if it were signed only by one = person who used their affiliation (as a *member* of the IAB, not the = whole)? >=20 > To put it another way -- sometimes I give talks and mention that = I'm a member of the IAB, and sometimes I omit other affiliations that I = hold or have held (for example, it's rare that I need to trot out that I = served as president of my local primary school for several years). Are = people seriously suggesting that this is out of line? >=20 > Cheers, >=20 >=20 >> On 19 Nov 2019, at 4:48 pm, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ = wrote: >>=20 >> While I believe that anyone has the right to state his position at = any organization, never mind is paid or not (unless a contractual clause = disallows that), I think that when it is not an official position of = that organization, it should be done stating clearly "that is a personal = opinion". >>=20 >> Something in the line of a footnote clearly indicating that this = letter is not the "official position of the IAB" (for this specific = case). >>=20 >> Otherwise, tomorrow, a few of us can sign a similar letter showing = below our names "Member, IETF", and who is reading it, probably will not = recognize that we aren't "empowered" to sign as IETF, as we are just a = bunch of participants, but not speaking from the IETF. >>=20 >> And so, clearly agree with Barry here. >>=20 >>=20 >> Regards, >> Jordi >> @jordipalet >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFEl 19/11/19 14:42, "ietf en nombre de Barry Leiba" = escribi=C3=B3= : >>=20 >> Perhaps some of you have seen that Ted Hardie posted an open letter = on >> the Hong Kong high court=E2=80=99s injunction on Internet speech: >> = https://medium.com/@ted.ietf/an-open-letter-on-the-hong-kong-high-court-in= junction-on-internet-speech-7f0048df2f54 >> The letter is signed by Ted and is co-signed by three other IAB >> members, each signing as an individual: the letter is not from the = IAB >> and doesn=E2=80=99t claim to be. >>=20 >> Nevertheless, note that all signatories identify themselves as >> =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D, and three of = the four do not >> list their company affiliations. This has two effects: >>=20 >> 1. By being signed by four IAB members who are identified primarily = as >> IAB members, the letter *appears* to be from the IAB. I have = passed >> this by three non-IETF friends, asking them who they think the = letter >> is from, and all three said, =E2=80=9CThe Internet Architecture = Board.=E2=80=9D >>=20 >> 2. By using =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D = this way, those >> signing the letter are effectively (whether by intent or not) using >> their IAB positions to gain credibility for their personal = opinions. >>=20 >> I think this is wildly inappropriate. I think those of us in IETF >> leadership should be scrupulously careful NOT to call out our IETF >> affiliations this way unless we are speaking for the organization. >> The fact that the letter refers to things that have been published >> with IAB consensus doesn=E2=80=99t change the fact that the = *letter* does not >> have IAB consensus, and we must be careful not to give the = impression >> that it does. >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99ve discussed this with Ted, who thinks that there=E2=80=99s= nothing wrong >> with how the letter was signed and posted. That disturbs me. I = tried >> to let it go, but I=E2=80=99m sufficiently bothered by it that I = felt the need >> to take it to the community. This is that. Ted tells me that all = IAB >> members were invited to co-sign the letter, and that none brought = up a >> concern about the use of the =E2=80=9CMember, IAB=E2=80=9D = affiliation. >>=20 >> As you think about this and =E2=80=94 I hope =E2=80=94 discuss it, = please keep this in mind: >>=20 >> - I=E2=80=99m NOT talking about the content of the message and = whether I do or >> don=E2=80=99t agree with it. That=E2=80=99s not the point. I hope = that as we discuss >> this we do NOT go into the content, the politics, and so on. = Let=E2=80=99s >> please keep this highly charged issue out of IETF discussions. >>=20 >> - I=E2=80=99m NOT looking to beat Ted up here; what I want is for = this not to >> happen again, and I hope the ensuing discussion supports that. >>=20 >> --=20 >> Barry >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> ********************************************** >> IPv4 is over >> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >> http://www.theipv6company.com >> The IPv6 Company >>=20 >> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use = of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized = disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this = information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly = prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the = intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution = or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including = attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal = offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this = communication and delete it. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use = of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized = disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this = information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly = prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the = intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution = or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including = attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal = offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this = communication and delete it. >=20 >=20 >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Nov 19 01:37:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F80C12086A for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:37:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OORMwS30Fh5r for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:37:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-f171.google.com (mail-pf1-f171.google.com [209.85.210.171]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79F361208F7 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:37:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-f171.google.com with SMTP id 193so11865154pfc.13 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:37:04 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=S7Uchizh0xl99Og7zM6xBEwjYDdDEKiQEjGZWoZy/aE=; b=GZ9aOzASm/gDWo3WgmIDfj5pr6DXZv4/wgcZQX3TV5KXacNWmado1OVcj2pg3hUxdT 9r+4Vc5iwprgLVqw1sD0jC1MlW+Nt2TJP6g+9WJznkU98lYkLU59fp74TCdaiZx1H6ft 9b52PrRkORI0dQKIUaSQfFmr+MqJV+xDiH3ZZuL9I5LhFyu3uXxXeQoAyNkKWGHFV5x3 5tlJVs8g8lrMroizSB/4IVbannW6YN84le3sobmlGDIEhgizNiUwFUBmdHoNOErHCPdT wStR5rYFIcggBSZ2ba27T4WymHWgCkMcbOU2ed3g4AAI67JRWP8HGqRzNhVddZ8cJW4C xqfg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXJE6Jnya0Cii/BZbvt8gSOpyXwK9z2i08zG1PccNb7b2fLnJtc LwGN4po5H/+AltKaupAWs8g66w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxR4FQWae8ZfVcjrw5lkdoj6jtqcmE+BMzWtDiO7AQdZIyGVGGzPc/gcoFQE63nJ3Uj7olU7g== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:97a8:: with SMTP id d8mr4666709pfq.234.1574156223487; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:37:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from vurt.meerval.net (dhcp-9994.meeting.ietf.org. [31.133.153.148]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b82sm24388544pfb.33.2019.11.19.01.37.00 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:37:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (vurt.meerval.net [local]) by vurt.meerval.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPA id a422c351; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:36:59 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:36:59 +0000 From: Job Snijders To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , Mark Nottingham , IETF discussion list Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members Message-ID: <20191119093659.GT53958@vurt.meerval.net> References: <0F893F23-FDEF-45F0-9A5B-839A1E4DB0E8@consulintel.es> <6964E3F0-06EC-4770-A0B2-E572E0240D59@mnot.net> <683EF30F-7EB0-424F-AFC7-F342BFB59642@consulintel.es> <5F623051-9903-4641-A057-C989435250A0@akamai.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5F623051-9903-4641-A057-C989435250A0@akamai.com> X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:37:06 -0000 I'm noting that it appears some folks in this thread seem to prioritize form over substance... Listing your affiliations is not an all or nothing proposition, you pick the ones you consider relevant. I think succinctness improves readability. Kind regards, Job From nobody Tue Nov 19 01:40:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 962A91200B9 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:40:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Euo1uoSosAly for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:40:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4DD1120887 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:40:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1574156416; x=1574761216; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References: In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=ePuqZLf2iCKmHXYLR/buvDODCAZLGMVDKOPT4P47WDw=; b=ftdMlUTSrhkRO RB9yjLeYp9p1sis64lWgmDo/8rG0DHW1C3kQK0/xbLqBGc8j6jgcTaqQE2K9BAg2 riHjdVpZ+9OXVQB/6Upy20xId782N62GDh5J7lq93VhOqJRtXPOuQGWagtT5Qjfv rpnTeUGbYJME34MBMCmvXRcPslMqfI= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:40:16 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:40:16 +0100 Received: from [172.20.4.214] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50006472897.msg for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:40:16 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.10 X-MDHelo: [172.20.4.214] X-MDArrival-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:40:16 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1226fef138=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ietf@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1f.0.191110 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 17:40:08 +0800 Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: "Salz, Rich" CC: IETF discussion list Message-ID: Thread-Topic: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members References: <0F893F23-FDEF-45F0-9A5B-839A1E4DB0E8@consulintel.es> <6964E3F0-06EC-4770-A0B2-E572E0240D59@mnot.net> <683EF30F-7EB0-424F-AFC7-F342BFB59642@consulintel.es> <5F623051-9903-4641-A057-C989435250A0@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <5F623051-9903-4641-A057-C989435250A0@akamai.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:40:24 -0000 Never saw that, but I'm fine with it! Regards, Jordi @jordipalet =20 =20 =EF=BB=BFEl 19/11/19 17:18, "Salz, Rich" escribi=C3=B3: I thought adding "Affiliation given for identification purposes only" s= omewhere near the "signature" was the common practice. =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Tue Nov 19 01:41:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 341A6120910 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:41:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LrvfCOHS5gYE for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:41:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BFDDD120BC0 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:41:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1574156507; x=1574761307; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=eCJWZbVZ FtVLQU2rayFDgQF5Ofks6ZxEL9V1fOZoZ20=; b=lgj7KLjPDixNOm3B4yxPL898 Pa04PjI4ovEmjltGyNaBL5G7Uvd/sKKnk+aQD/vDjcMzNe7xxfOcAbkynx3f9s3i BtGpRQtrwfTT0CFPVeMA2jdjV5mlxrTJdGuOGZpfDyZwK2snZuJmJsIZldpRanbo yXem9rdyBRmxtcBSfDo= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:41:47 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:41:46 +0100 Received: from [172.20.4.214] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50006472903.msg for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:41:46 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 10.8.10.10 X-MDHelo: [172.20.4.214] X-MDArrival-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:41:46 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1226fef138=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ietf@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1f.0.191110 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 17:41:40 +0800 Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: IETF discussion list Message-ID: <2C6B6C6E-6E47-49A3-8C22-F29D467B0EC6@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members References: <0F893F23-FDEF-45F0-9A5B-839A1E4DB0E8@consulintel.es> <6964E3F0-06EC-4770-A0B2-E572E0240D59@mnot.net> <683EF30F-7EB0-424F-AFC7-F342BFB59642@consulintel.es> <5F623051-9903-4641-A057-C989435250A0@akamai.com> <20191119093659.GT53958@vurt.meerval.net> In-Reply-To: <20191119093659.GT53958@vurt.meerval.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:41:55 -0000 Hi Job, I'm sure here we all know that, but you need to put yourself in the shoes o= f who is reading the document. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet =20 =20 =EF=BB=BFEl 19/11/19 17:37, "ietf en nombre de Job Snijders" escribi=C3=B3: I'm noting that it appears some folks in this thread seem to prioritize form over substance... Listing your affiliations is not an all or nothing proposition, you pick the ones you consider relevant. I think succinctness improves readability. =20 Kind regards, =20 Job =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. 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Thread-Topic: Yang update from IESG ? 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Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:51:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Ted Hardie Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 17:51:17 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Follow-up on Hong Kong Injunction To: IETF , Internet Architecture Board Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000000508c0597b003ef" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:51:50 -0000 --00000000000000508c0597b003ef Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" The ISOC HK chapter just shared the following update on the matter which the Open Letter addressed. The text of the update is available in both Chinese and English, but the key point is here: Judgement was issued this afternoon which the injunction will continue to > be effective. However, taking into account the legal perspectives of ISOC > HK, the judge narrowed the scope of the original injunction and amended > that only those with the intent to incite will be found guilty under the > new injunction order. The judgement also made clear that platform operators > are not required under the injunction order to exercise instantaneous > censorship of the online content of all posts on the platforms, or to > police or filter out information or messages. > I am personally encouraged by this, and I believe that the ISOC HK chapter deserves our thanks in working toward this end. A number of people reached out to me today to ask if they could add their name to the letter. I believe, given this news, that this is no longer necessary. However, I encourage everyone who is concerned with matters of this type to follow the work of ISOC and its chapters on the related issues. Similar issues have come up before and no doubt will again; all of our voices are needed. regards, Ted Hardie --00000000000000508c0597b003ef Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The ISOC HK chapter just shared the following update = on the matter which the Open Letter addressed.=C2=A0 The text of the update= is available in both Chinese and English, but the key poi= nt is here:

Judgement was issued this afternoon which the injunction will c= ontinue=20 to be effective. However, taking into account the legal perspectives of=20 ISOC HK, the judge narrowed the scope of the original injunction and=20 amended that only those with the intent to incite will be found guilty=20 under the new injunction order. The judgement also made clear that=20 platform operators are not required under the injunction order to=20 exercise instantaneous censorship of the online content of all posts on=20 the platforms, or to police or filter out information or messages.

I am personally encouraged by this, and = I believe that the ISOC HK chapter deserves our thanks in working toward th= is end.=C2=A0

A number of people reached out = to me today to ask if they could add their name to the letter.=C2=A0 I beli= eve, given this news, that this is no longer necessary. However, I encourag= e everyone who is concerned with matters of this type to follow the work of= ISOC and its chapters on the related issues.=C2=A0 Similar issues have com= e up before and no doubt will again; all of our voices are needed.

regards,

Ted Hardie
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Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 13:46:12 -0000 Dear colleagues, I am an employee (CEO) of the Internet Society and I am emphatically not speaking for it. As a matter of full disclosure, however, the Internet Society also issued a statement in respect of the situation in Hong Kong, in consultation with the ISOC chapter in Hong Kong. I was both a member and chair of the IAB for a period of time. During that time, the much-ballyhooed "IANA transition" happened. I had plenty of occasions to speak about various things going on during that time, and I quite often used my affiliation with the IAB under such circumstances. It is with that background in mind that I send this note. On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 02:42:04PM +0800, Barry Leiba wrote: > 1. By being signed by four IAB members who are identified primarily as > IAB members, the letter *appears* to be from the IAB. I have passed > this by three non-IETF friends, asking them who they think the letter > is from, and all three said, “The Internet Architecture Board.” I am entirely unwilling to speculate about worldwide interpretation trends of texts based on the sample, "Three friends of Barry Leiba under uncontrolled questioning." Please don't stand on that kind of sample as anything other than the worst kind of anecdata. > 2. By using “Member, Internet Architecture Board” this way, those > signing the letter are effectively (whether by intent or not) using > their IAB positions to gain credibility for their personal opinions. Or else they are presenting evidence that a community that the audiece might otherwise respect decided that these were people who had a thing or two to say about how the Internet works. That seems to me important because … > I think this is wildly inappropriate. … I think it is wildly appropriate. The _very point_ of the IAB is that it is not subject to consensus rules that the IETF is. I think it would indeed be inappropriate for people to use their affiliation with the IESG this way: the IESG _does_ speak for the IETF. But the IAB does not, and that not-speaking-for role is in fact part of the _point_ of having the IAB at all. If IAB members cannot tell people, "I have this view and, by the way, my community appointed me to this August Body precisely so that I would have views and say them," then I am mystified what we want the IAB for except simple constitutional duties. If the IAB exists to be the Governor General[1] of the IETF, then we should change its charter. But I don't think that's the IAB job today, and I think its members need to be able to be clear under what title they have an opinion. Best regards, A [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governor_General_of_Canada -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Tue Nov 19 07:40:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 283B41208F0 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 07:40:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U2DBVUk1Xya2 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 07:40:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [98.153.82.211]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FCC1120108 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 07:40:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01RDZH2NB19S006ZE3@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf@ietf.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 07:35:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=utf-8 Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01RDSPYBW0V400Z8EC@mauve.mrochek.com> (original mail from NED@mauve.mrochek.com) for ietf@ietf.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 07:35:15 -0800 (PST) From: ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com Cc: ietf@ietf.org Message-id: <01RDZH2LRAW800Z8EC@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 07:26:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members In-reply-to: "Your message dated Tue, 19 Nov 2019 08:46:02 -0500" <20191119134601.45y2uphwbyrn2lqb@mx4.yitter.info> References: <20191119134601.45y2uphwbyrn2lqb@mx4.yitter.info> To: Andrew Sullivan Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:40:23 -0000 I agree completely with Andrew's position. I only wish I'd been the one to write this. A few additional comments below. Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 02:42:04PM +0800, Barry Leiba wrote: > > 1. By being signed by four IAB members who are identified primarily as > > IAB members, the letter *appears* to be from the IAB. I have passed > > this by three non-IETF friends, asking them who they think the letter > > is from, and all three said, “The Internet Architecture Board.” > I am entirely unwilling to speculate about worldwide interpretation > trends of texts based on the sample, "Three friends of Barry Leiba > under uncontrolled questioning." Please don't stand on that kind of > sample as anything other than the worst kind of anecdata. FWIW, I asked a couple, and they both said "Ted Hardie", and looked at me like I was nuts for asking. > > 2. By using “Member, Internet Architecture Board” this way, those > > signing the letter are effectively (whether by intent or not) using > > their IAB positions to gain credibility for their personal opinions. > Or else they are presenting evidence that a community that the audiece > might otherwise respect decided that these were people who had a thing > or two to say about how the Internet works. That seems to me > important because … Exactly. To the extent anyone actually knows what the IAB is and what it means to be appointed to it, it's help to know that something was said by someone on it. > > I think this is wildly inappropriate. > … I think it is wildly appropriate. The _very point_ of the IAB is > that it is not subject to consensus rules that the IETF is. I think > it would indeed be inappropriate for people to use their affiliation > with the IESG this way: the IESG _does_ speak for the IETF. But the > IAB does not, and that not-speaking-for role is in fact part of the > _point_ of having the IAB at all. > If IAB members cannot tell people, "I have this view and, by the way, > my community appointed me to this August Body precisely so that I > would have views and say them," then I am mystified what we want the > IAB for except simple constitutional duties. If the IAB exists to be > the Governor General[1] of the IETF, then we should change its > charter. But I don't think that's the IAB job today, and I think its > members need to be able to be clear under what title they have an > opinion. What we as individuals might want the IAB to be is of no relevance here, the issue is what the IAB *is*. Ned > Best regards, > A > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governor_General_of_Canada > -- > Andrew Sullivan > ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Tue Nov 19 09:42:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BBE5120122 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:42:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PK3oI2BoFI7R for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:42:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8DC9120121 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:42:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B27142F; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:42:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:42:21 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=qH/q6FAxE1tAK+jeOrZhHlP436+hzwWGfzGuuZkAU XA=; b=WZZ5z6odJnFDucBbDMwN7pT7kCB+chtpYJ9qsOKNAN/n1N8Hj9lH1m+Xr HjAw+OAZFR3kzEsZ2WvT5Jhj6Nl1aFh7aJI7y5wFyeN8rK1f062eXzstDGvk6tSs +SIvXa7aCtFYreGcZxhP4at5S6kt5TMZ6Bl6vxKyrouDh81Ko5yomPtk6UTEERX4 hPvmtpLkzajgTmMRRov1u9Tktym514Fwqfsa8w4VDqPriqpY6K4IncKIRWELBWdX jkRelHtyAlELL8OWDB6lGvrFkTU/ScO/FVbxkFZj7PeWHZiYxB4et565DroevrPE pz2mKQl57Ty96JMRe4EaLV1ctAF1Q== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudegkedguddtgecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvght fihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecukfhppedutdekrddvvddurddukedtrd duheenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgv rhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 595288005C; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:42:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members To: ietf@ietf.org References: From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:42:19 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 17:42:28 -0000 I read the letter and don't see anything inappropriate about it whatsoever.     To me it is clear that the signers were doing so as individuals and not representing their opinions as those of the IAB. In addition, I think there's something seriously wrong with the idea that IAB members can't speak out politically, or can't state their IAB affiliation when doing so. Evil must be spoken out against, and restraint of free exchange of ideas is very nearly the most evil thing I know of. Barry, I think you should reconsider your position. Keith From nobody Tue Nov 19 10:08:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9728812097D for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:08:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=chromium.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MD2-hsPXFVV4 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:08:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x12c.google.com (mail-il1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4429E1209AD for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:08:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id q15so20558110ils.8 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:08:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=chromium.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Itd69/AFCymNdW2nAdR4YHeHO+mhKZHyaQCFqByVDSY=; b=bja+0uuKaBMrSt4JSTWmlzFjvWre1Vjge3oHt2WvZze3OLQaH1HU6R9BwX1S1sveky SBqhby0sTmjXwXNiPH0+HLAMwQ5Umtl4wQxQpnDO3trENDifVwift4I9imlT/STUf62R GnEw9UtyjR2zmYLzK8GX67CwlgzYpSyHWxaGE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Itd69/AFCymNdW2nAdR4YHeHO+mhKZHyaQCFqByVDSY=; b=Hrhruw1Trb5c9/AL+oP8yF4qsgNwREbiMpWisxF3myzWJgdvqfJwDM73xYLnE9C0WS BWXW2CdBTyH9bPibPBJeEzuVL3PIt6CkUYcfXc/nqhubI6IHBCQSecnfADa9zFnfRFDo xLjaqEk7SevZpNBwNPieZZzKdT3X9XoAZ75nI3yuomzIGN99UNjeJYBr5MLrYvtmmCyB CxQPC7UsffI6Ka2Ih9v2QJyRhvJPHVD0Rdr+seu27gIrGI2Q55YsnSXb/b+7jTcnAEq8 ncTZV5IfHlx3k3pe07JlTzTkUDn565voBYw0Vu6MUjJA8fQEbGOShMhZVexwTqimbqc/ o4LQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVm7Nt34pSKr/tjJ2rpROKp3ER/us3a3Ymr4QcZXjunIYNsbrbg TUrT7hVZNQkRBq/hpe3h1hvqrS1WRiuFJcy4A9F36w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzwB60POU+nPshjbDVzb6z+75UIMIrqKhyRxYkn2lbdFSqcmY7Ub0KM3q8YveXd0yEQKgHGQmzrF7miylRhC0c= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:c2c:: with SMTP id q12mr24412954ilg.205.1574186924975; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:08:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Sam Kerner Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 13:08:08 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members To: Barry Leiba Cc: IETF discussion list Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:08:47 -0000 On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 1:42 AM Barry Leiba wrote= : > > Perhaps some of you have seen that Ted Hardie posted an open letter on > the Hong Kong high court=E2=80=99s injunction on Internet speech: > https://medium.com/@ted.ietf/an-open-letter-on-the-hong-kong-high-court-i= njunction-on-internet-speech-7f0048df2f54 > The letter is signed by Ted and is co-signed by three other IAB > members, each signing as an individual: the letter is not from the IAB > and doesn=E2=80=99t claim to be. > > Nevertheless, note that all signatories identify themselves as > =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D, and three of the f= our do not > list their company affiliations. This has two effects: > > 1. By being signed by four IAB members who are identified primarily as > IAB members, the letter *appears* to be from the IAB. I have passed > this by three non-IETF friends, asking them who they think the letter > is from, and all three said, =E2=80=9CThe Internet Architecture Board.=E2= =80=9D > > 2. By using =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D this wa= y, those > signing the letter are effectively (whether by intent or not) using > their IAB positions to gain credibility for their personal opinions. > > I think this is wildly inappropriate. I think those of us in IETF > leadership should be scrupulously careful NOT to call out our IETF > affiliations this way unless we are speaking for the organization. Barry, I want to make sure I understand your position: If a member of the IAB signs such a letter, what (in your opinion) would be an appropriate way to note who they are? Would it be appropriate to say "John Doe, member IAB, speaking in an individual capacity"? Should they refrain from mentioning any connection to the IAB? Sam > The fact that the letter refers to things that have been published > with IAB consensus doesn=E2=80=99t change the fact that the *letter* does= not > have IAB consensus, and we must be careful not to give the impression > that it does. > > I=E2=80=99ve discussed this with Ted, who thinks that there=E2=80=99s not= hing wrong > with how the letter was signed and posted. That disturbs me. I tried > to let it go, but I=E2=80=99m sufficiently bothered by it that I felt the= need > to take it to the community. This is that. Ted tells me that all IAB > members were invited to co-sign the letter, and that none brought up a > concern about the use of the =E2=80=9CMember, IAB=E2=80=9D affiliation. > > As you think about this and =E2=80=94 I hope =E2=80=94 discuss it, please= keep this in mind: > > - I=E2=80=99m NOT talking about the content of the message and whether I = do or > don=E2=80=99t agree with it. That=E2=80=99s not the point. I hope that = as we discuss > this we do NOT go into the content, the politics, and so on. Let=E2=80= =99s > please keep this highly charged issue out of IETF discussions. > > - I=E2=80=99m NOT looking to beat Ted up here; what I want is for this no= t to > happen again, and I hope the ensuing discussion supports that. > > -- > Barry > From nobody Tue Nov 19 10:32:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E16BB120911 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:32:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jKyBhmxKCVdI for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:31:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from bumble.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (bumble.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D0C11200D7 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:31:57 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A908C158C; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:31:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a14.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-89-221.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.89.221]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 2642D8C1511; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:31:56 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a14.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:31:56 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Exultant-Irritate: 5338c2eb523cbeb2_1574188316418_545933476 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1574188316418:923310178 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1574188316418 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a14.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a14.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8694795734; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:31:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=/g3YfdVVPKAhJJ sAPlLv+F+SnPo=; b=hAayMppDYYGEku6BIDJcc20pWDjhQg5xEBrFbpdKtTR55a 9y2XfrT6XUVX6xkH4cfLm2I8k2Smtr2FEq4USfh4nwNNy9wtxsSjDO4Kmv9p2BOO PJ03/YPbyc3q+EJP5nI8IS/cJcz6YBIQMtqrYgiPETObhZiPcLTq5OI4LN9uw= Received: from localhost (sdzac10-108-1-nat.nje.twosigma.com [8.2.105.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a14.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DA52B956AC; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:31:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:31:45 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a14 From: Nico Williams To: Mark Nottingham Cc: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , IETF discussion list Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members Message-ID: <20191119183144.GA26241@localhost> References: <0F893F23-FDEF-45F0-9A5B-839A1E4DB0E8@consulintel.es> <6964E3F0-06EC-4770-A0B2-E572E0240D59@mnot.net> <683EF30F-7EB0-424F-AFC7-F342BFB59642@consulintel.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:32:01 -0000 On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 05:18:41PM +0800, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Yes, I agree that clarity here is good. However, "Member of IAB" is > pretty specific, just as "Member of Parliament" is specific; it is > clearly distinguishing the part from the whole. Excellent and clarifying analogy. MPs and such often speak publicly for themselves while using their membership of whatever august/lame body they are members of, yet no one mistakes their speech for that of the larger body. Since the IAB does not speak for the community, ISTM that the only ones with authority to object are the IAB itself, and maybe its chartering authority. That doesn't mean that IETF participants can't object to IAB members using their IAB membership as a credential, but it does deny those objections weight. Cheers, Nico -- From nobody Tue Nov 19 15:29:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 560BC120882 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:29:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aorsDI41G0ob for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:29:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5B8C120090 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:29:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1iXCwR-0007i1-DM; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:29:51 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:29:45 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Andrew Sullivan , ietf@ietf.org cc: Ted Hardie Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members Message-ID: <56C8EA09FD384C8127E0E4B8@PSB> In-Reply-To: <20191119134601.45y2uphwbyrn2lqb@mx4.yitter.info> References: <20191119134601.45y2uphwbyrn2lqb@mx4.yitter.info> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 23:29:56 -0000 (top post) Andrew, In part because we so often reach the same conclusion about such things even though our reasoning is often different, and because we have both been on, and chaired, the IAB, I'm feeling a need to respond to your note on a subject I normally would have stayed out of. In case it makes a difference, I am glad a note got sent, am largely in agreement with its content, and am very relieved that the order was clarified appropriately. I also have trouble getting to Barry's "wildly inappropriate", but I do think the signatures and affiliation listings, without qualification, represent, at best, poor judgment. I also think you are being a bit inconsistent in ways that reflect on that opinion. Specifically,... * The level of understanding in governments and communities outside ones related to Internet technology about what the IAB is and the role it plays differ widely, from "never heard of them" (perhaps modified by "sounds like an important body") to confusion with the role and influence of the Internet Activities Board in the pre-ICANN, pre-Kobe, and pre-commercialization periods. The perception of what the affiliations might mean may differ with different understandings of what the IAB is all about. I believe almost no one outside our immediate community knows that formal IAB statements are almost always endorsed with "for the IAB" or similar language (itself, IIR, a moderately recent innovation). Nor would they know whether the IAB has a dozen members, more than that, or perhaps only four, so it would be impossible for them to assess whether the letter was signed by all or a majority of the IAB (in either of which cases whether it was an official IAB statement might be hair-splitting) or a by a relatively small fraction of the IAB possibly speaking only for themselves. I also suggest that having all signatories identified as "Member, Internet Architecture Board" reinforces any accidental impression that the IAB is the originator of the note whether all IAB members signed or endorsed it or not. It would have been a happy coincidence had at least one signatory been listed with a different, non-IAB, affiliation (e.g., "Jane Doe, CEO BigInternetCorp") because that would have made any inferences that the letter was an IAB statement much less likely. * Since taking on the role of ISOC CEO, you have taken the lead in making certain the community (and onlookers) understand the difference between your personal opinions and an organizational position for which you are the spokesperson. I observe that your note to the IETF list starts with a disclaimer consistent with that distinction. In the case of this letter, while I don't believe that any of the signatories were deliberately trying to mislead (and I note Ted's comments about time pressure and assume that, had there been more time, this might have been handled a bit differently), I also believe that, even without your example, most of us know how to write phrases like "for identification", "not a formal IAB position", "in individual capacities only", and so on. From my perspective as a former IAB Member and Chair, I think that it would have represented better judgment (and, again, been consistent with the example you have set) to attach such clarifying wording in this case. =20 * I don't think Barry's message implied that the signatories were trying to give the impression that they were speaking for the IETF, the so-called Internet Technical Community, or any broader group (including, for example, the Internet Society or its membership or leadership). At least in part because of general ignorance and some confusion about the organizational relationships involved (see above), I doubt that many people would make inferences beyond "speaking for the IAB" unless they thought the IAB runs the Internet. I think that is exactly what Barry said, no matter how anecdotal his evidence. Regardless of what the "very point" of the IAB is, we certainly agree that is should not be required to have community consensus (rough or otherwise) before taking a position like the one this letter represents. On the other hand, I don't believe the IAB (at least post-Kobe) ever makes decisions or statements without at least a general sense of consensus _within the IAB_. That should be true whether that consensus is about a particular position or about a particular IAB member or two having views sufficiently aligned with the IAB consensus that the IAB delegates them with the responsibility and authority to take on representational roles and to speak for the IAB in those roles. So I don't see what your comments about speaking for the IETF have to do with this. I also don't believe we have reached the point in which individual members of the IAB (or even four of them) can speak for the IAB without internal IAB discussion and consensus. But, again, AFAICT, none of them have made the claim that they spoken for the IAB or represent IAB consensus. * Finally, as to "I have this view and, by the way, my community appointed me to this August Body precisely so that I would have views and say them", I am unable to find any language in either the IAB Charter or the most recent IAB role description to the Nomcom that says, precisely or otherwise, that people are appointed to the IAB because they have views and will say them, especially without limits on the topics of those views. In particular, I do not see the holding of views based on deep expertise on policy matters and their implications in the description of qualifications given to the Nomcom (although I would hope some IAB members would have those skills and some statements in the description are consistent with that hope). More important, I see nothing in those documents that encourages members of the IAB to express their individual views on subjects while identifying their views specifically as members of the IAB. Of course, it doesn't prohibit their doing so either -- to a very significant degree, we rely on individual responsibility and good judgment. So, while I don't see this as earthshaking and cannot get to "wildly inappropriate" in the absence of clear implications that people were speaking for the community (or at least for the IAB) or to intentionally mislead others into thinking they were, it seems to me that most (although certainly not all) IAB members over the years have understood the distinction between speaking for the IAB or in their IAB roles and expressing their personal views and have understood mechanisms for making that distinction clear. I see lack of care about that distinction as bad for the IAB and poor judgment wrt the extended IETF community and the IAB's many audiences. And, if, as Ted suggests, things just like this have happened many times before, I hope that one result of this discussion is that it will not be taken as endorsement for similar things happening in the future. best, john --On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 08:46 -0500 Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Dear colleagues, >=20 > I am an employee (CEO) of the Internet Society and I am > emphatically not speaking for it. As a matter of full > disclosure, however, the Internet Society also issued a > statement in respect of the situation in Hong Kong, in > consultation with the ISOC chapter in Hong Kong. >=20 > I was both a member and chair of the IAB for a period of time. > During that time, the much-ballyhooed "IANA transition" > happened. I had plenty of occasions to speak about various > things going on during that time, and I quite often used my > affiliation with the IAB under such circumstances. It is with > that background in mind that I send this note. >=20 > On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 02:42:04PM +0800, Barry Leiba wrote: >=20 >> 1. By being signed by four IAB members who are identified >> primarily as IAB members, the letter *appears* to be from the >> IAB. I have passed this by three non-IETF friends, asking >> them who they think the letter is from, and all three said, >> "The Internet Architecture Board." >=20 > I am entirely unwilling to speculate about worldwide > interpretation trends of texts based on the sample, "Three > friends of Barry Leiba under uncontrolled questioning." > Please don't stand on that kind of sample as anything other > than the worst kind of anecdata. >=20 >> 2. By using "Member, Internet Architecture Board" this >> way, those signing the letter are effectively (whether by >> intent or not) using their IAB positions to gain credibility >> for their personal opinions. >=20 > Or else they are presenting evidence that a community that the > audiece might otherwise respect decided that these were people > who had a thing or two to say about how the Internet works. > That seems to me important because =E2=80=A6 > =20 >> I think this is wildly inappropriate. >=20 > =E2=80=A6 I think it is wildly appropriate. The _very point_ = of the > IAB is that it is not subject to consensus rules that the IETF > is. I think it would indeed be inappropriate for people to > use their affiliation with the IESG this way: the IESG _does_ > speak for the IETF. But the IAB does not, and that > not-speaking-for role is in fact part of the _point_ of having > the IAB at all. >=20 > If IAB members cannot tell people, "I have this view and, by > the way, my community appointed me to this August Body > precisely so that I would have views and say them," then I am > mystified what we want the IAB for except simple > constitutional duties. If the IAB exists to be the Governor > General[1] of the IETF, then we should change its charter. > But I don't think that's the IAB job today, and I think its > members need to be able to be clear under what title they have > an opinion. >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > A >=20 > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governor_General_of_Canada From nobody Tue Nov 19 15:44:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75CF212089B for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:44:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UV2dXDosIt-k for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:44:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x430.google.com (mail-pf1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4F5C12009E for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:44:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x430.google.com with SMTP id s5so13204937pfh.9 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:44:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TBo0UwgBqeH+tGBa59V4pJ6Uy1l9M4EGCtBuW26PFuY=; b=XHYcutHZQ2hVxLtBNXj1fY6hqG7fh/3NhXD4iQj9Tz865LGpdW35F8UPgGOJfHUiyN /Q4aASQoKtVvwixopvcOupI4zd8FiMdZ5Vk8YqFheZPFpECXOeiCkVDHXsK/NfpRHX89 eDJNZliMExobI2v/KNLMRz/V3MPOyLaXN7BF74a6tV1KoIIPnqHjKS7YcyFKx87GGJxa /G7g/W4iLBPJQ3iwxi3FvKcXt4OqXMnJ+xe9dAPj+R59+dTAq9XQXQ6f9nJFwHfmLkhM O2GzHvPqUt77HLbOmdZghf3ygaoNj8NXZLogvSIUqhGYmHbqfGkREW6RItRNZn0Ob5BH EWeg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=TBo0UwgBqeH+tGBa59V4pJ6Uy1l9M4EGCtBuW26PFuY=; b=coswUtnfDXDN3hgDXHyE5U2UzAF2UHf7G2972wSNDXF4qY+7MERA2FlSp46fnM5bU/ vGuUThnqynYygTRVYkXukIkOVBRlrmUT84QNAONOvEYHDAjVjsItIeS2KcCoH6Ypjurb Gz18evpYXpgYRo3Pw9u9mKhx9JskV9cAAByYMNDo9tamDS8WzcweOtU8cQA0KU313u7T fr0aAaUnNPd+R1xCSQgyn7Q+43uwyTr2TsSE+MXWZ0DsbafEjR7wb7vX3IhH5qV7kOt2 HL++TVOfgT015X8BcnXjlKdnRBYDoLE2fAzcdMqZDZQrTK0FiHMwye54phdOx+VbxMh7 gPSg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVMezELkMPlUPr6El+5e2FoEC7OtINFryoiz7NKtfZMiwBQJkBs Jn5RyUgHURKbRUKYg4LMAl4gzFc7 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxse9mZbmLLnkcTK3uDlmSwwQ+rm6wV/+Y8+amd6pQB112TnspoDRHmli7JMlJUNa0Sl2Dvfg== X-Received: by 2002:a62:e914:: with SMTP id j20mr283667pfh.245.1574207055694; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:44:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [31.133.158.74] (dhcp-9e4a.meeting.ietf.org. [31.133.158.74]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v189sm27177970pfv.133.2019.11.19.15.44.14 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:44:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members To: Nico Williams Cc: IETF discussion list References: <0F893F23-FDEF-45F0-9A5B-839A1E4DB0E8@consulintel.es> <6964E3F0-06EC-4770-A0B2-E572E0240D59@mnot.net> <683EF30F-7EB0-424F-AFC7-F342BFB59642@consulintel.es> <20191119183144.GA26241@localhost> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <98efc3ee-640f-4d74-3726-cc2ecc37c881@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 12:44:13 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20191119183144.GA26241@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 23:44:20 -0000 Nico, On 20-Nov-19 07:31, Nico Williams wrote: > On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 05:18:41PM +0800, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> Yes, I agree that clarity here is good. However, "Member of IAB" is >> pretty specific, just as "Member of Parliament" is specific; it is >> clearly distinguishing the part from the whole. > > Excellent and clarifying analogy. MPs and such often speak publicly for > themselves while using their membership of whatever august/lame body > they are members of, yet no one mistakes their speech for that of the > larger body. > > Since the IAB does not speak for the community, ISTM that the only ones > with authority to object are the IAB itself, and maybe its chartering > authority. The chartering body is the IETF, since the IAB charter is a BCP. > That doesn't mean that IETF participants can't object to IAB members > using their IAB membership as a credential, but it does deny those > objections weight. The IETF as a whole could legitimately object, presumably by way of persuading the IESG to call a rough consensus to do so. So Barry's objection could have been signed "Barry, an IETF participant", but it wasn't. It did not request any action by the IAB or the IESG, or ask for support for Barry's viewpoint. Comment is free. It's certainly better to keep the underlying issues out of IETF debates, except when we tread with great care as we did for RFC1984, RFC2804 and RFC7258. Using those RFCs in civil society debates is more ISOC's job than the IETF's, IMHO. I do agree with the idea that when speaking in public on such sensitive matters, it is wise to be very precise about the role in which one is speaking, e.g. "IAB member, writing in my private capacity" or something like that. Brian Carpenter, an IETF participant, writing IMNSHO From nobody Tue Nov 19 16:17:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 699A6120133 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 16:17:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MYIveDNhO6y6 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 16:17:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B77A120861 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 16:17:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1iXDgp-0007qX-D8; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:17:47 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:17:41 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Nico Williams cc: IETF discussion list Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <98efc3ee-640f-4d74-3726-cc2ecc37c881@gmail.com> References: <0F893F23-FDEF-45F0-9A5B-839A1E4DB0E8@consulintel.es> <6964E3F0-06EC-4770-A0B2-E572E0240D59@mnot.net> <683EF30F-7EB0-424F-AFC7-F342BFB59642@consulintel.es> <20191119183144.GA26241@localhost> <98efc3ee-640f-4d74-3726-cc2ecc37c881@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 00:17:50 -0000 --On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 07:31, Nico Williams wrote: > On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 05:18:41PM +0800, Mark Nottingham > wrote: >> Yes, I agree that clarity here is good. However, "Member of >> IAB" is pretty specific, just as "Member of Parliament" is >> specific; it is clearly distinguishing the part from the >> whole. > > Excellent and clarifying analogy. MPs and such often speak > publicly for themselves while using their membership of > whatever august/lame body they are members of, yet no one > mistakes their speech for that of the larger body. Nico, I actually dispute the validity of the analogy. "Member of Parliament" works, and works the way you and others have suggested, because most likely readers know what a parliament (or other representative legislative body) is and more or less how they work. They may even have had reason to conclude that, democracy being what it is, that some members of some parliaments may actually be clods or utter fools. Consequently, they know that "Member of Parliament" is an identification tag and not a claim to authority on behalf of the parliament or the country. By contrast, "King of Lower Slobbovia" is most likely a claim to authority, perhaps so even if one knows that Lower Slobbovia is a constitutional monarchy in which the king is usually accepted to be seen and not heard and would be ignored or overthrown if he spoke up on any matter of national political substance. "Member of IAB" is not like "Member of Parliament" unless one actually knows what the IAB is, something about its relationship to the community and the Internet, and what our customs are with regard to role and authority identification (e.g., that almost all consensus documents issued by the IAB are signed by one member with "for the IAB" in them or are otherwise clear that they are IAB documents (for example as Ted noted, such documents always, or almost always, appear on the IAB's web page). Without that knowledge the reader cannot know whether four people signing a document and identifying themselves as "Member of IAB" is just four guys with a shared opinion or whether it is the formal statement of a deliberative body with a high level of qualifications and expertise in the relevant area. If that does not make the distinction clear enough, consider what assumptions you would make if you received an authoritative-looking document or letter signed by four people who identified themselves as Justices of the Supreme Court of some country. Personal opinions or legally-binding decision? If you (or any other random reader unfamiliar with that country's politics and traditions) aren't sure about the answer, it makes a very strong case for including language that avoids any possible doubt. As Brian and others have pointed out, adding the few words needed to be clear that someone is expressing a personal, rather than institutional or organizational, opinion is not hard. If someone would have already made the right guess, those words are also harmless. If they have guessed wrong, it might be important. And, if the IAB (or IAB members) have gotten out of the habit of being clear about that distinction, I suggest that it is time they get back into it. best, john From nobody Tue Nov 19 18:01:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F6E1200E5 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:01:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.171 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.171 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fPOV-ZeUX_MF for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:01:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D5BF12012C for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:01:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88436548016; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 03:01:35 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 7E188440055; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 03:01:35 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 03:01:35 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: ietf@ietf.org, irtf-discuss@irtf.org Subject: Misplaced blue-sheet for side-meeting wed 8:30 / orchard: New IP research Message-ID: <20191120020135.GZ2287@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 02:01:42 -0000 Hi We are missing one blue sheet for subject side meeting. Whoever took it from the room, i would appreciate if you could return it to me, or IETF registration desk and tell them to kepp it for me. Thank you very much Toerless From nobody Tue Nov 19 18:31:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3652B12008C for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:31:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vIUsELagb0M0 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:31:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E373120025 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:31:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 4AE5943327243C3AB282 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 02:31:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lhreml725-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.76) by LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 02:31:19 +0000 Received: from lhreml725-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.76) by lhreml725-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.76) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 02:31:19 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.212) by lhreml725-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.76) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 02:31:19 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM526-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.127]) by DGGEMM404-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.212]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 10:31:14 +0800 From: "Roni Even (A)" To: Mark Nottingham , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: IETF discussion list Subject: RE: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members Thread-Topic: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members Thread-Index: AQHVnrpVtq4nzo1oY0OJxyRDzWLFOaeTVzfA Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 02:31:14 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD23DC6FE2@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <0F893F23-FDEF-45F0-9A5B-839A1E4DB0E8@consulintel.es> <6964E3F0-06EC-4770-A0B2-E572E0240D59@mnot.net> <683EF30F-7EB0-424F-AFC7-F342BFB59642@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.52.40.217] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion 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tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IzQ4lmhTkuep for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:23:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from bgl-iport-3.cisco.com (bgl-iport-3.cisco.com [72.163.197.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5F1812002E for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:23:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=84; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1574220203; x=1575429803; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: 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(8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id xAK36lku025321 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 20 Nov 2019 03:06:48 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <20191119134601.45y2uphwbyrn2lqb@mx4.yitter.info> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 11:06:47 +0800 Cc: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <132D2460-3737-4AD1-B2CA-5C9212A44713@cisco.com> References: <20191119134601.45y2uphwbyrn2lqb@mx4.yitter.info> To: Andrew Sullivan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3601.0.10) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.68.212.211, [10.68.212.211] X-Outbound-Node: bgl-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 03:23:25 -0000 The house is burning down and we are arguing over titles of firefighters. Eliot From nobody Tue Nov 19 19:42:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC40012004E for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:42:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4nZvRj2udwwD for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:42:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7722112002E for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:42:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0537541A; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 22:42:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 19 Nov 2019 22:42:54 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=O/ytdDc7JOSo1L5oJgwmIDcMawsLT/y/JFYJlppf7 Jk=; b=ZY3BC8lXuHcClPfA0+71Pp5SHzbky2UhwWpWJsxD62pufepfqSDyGU1oa sJYU81+ED+WUp2VgDv7tG4oNIdeQIV+r9y552bhacVyLe5ITz9Rh4sqgFj+CHSoB q8wH3PCr4gU28AOPBCCznrX0bUgRdQAZ+/RsENcJjvwAXgYpbGrYpIm/V2Hczece GmhyUsn55TmiUXdKUinysF458TMoKkkqkaJVOUmGo1cPZtOuWbiONocUG4D6C7v4 xXVn4UsiKXK/JxGtNTm+3S7kRSMDrEUp7P0E36vcNInjaAiWn2glxBt1fW6MQplC 3RWuv/cWvbMkEFYmu08Hl5KlpsXlQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudegledgiedvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtje ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrud ehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghr vghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1C467306005C; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 22:42:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members To: ietf@ietf.org References: <20191119134601.45y2uphwbyrn2lqb@mx4.yitter.info> <132D2460-3737-4AD1-B2CA-5C9212A44713@cisco.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <9605cef2-a4f5-adac-32be-56b005a1726f@network-heretics.com> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 22:42:52 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <132D2460-3737-4AD1-B2CA-5C9212A44713@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 03:42:57 -0000 On 11/19/19 10:06 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > The house is burning down and we are arguing over titles of firefighters. Yes. 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FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: isoc.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: txu7gNeBtpmmsbiDsVppkxKnAkzrbIamaONGrdatWaSUzr3B3Zd2uobcJ9MKv0O3K29ug5OuYoUkBCGj/i1bM428w91qJAVqsEH+C4BqVi0Y8dqRezu4zzAanaRRUgngk0xb8bslIA6WNGQ1wvGB66jSiTfw5qWZ7eccLogNLRa+OAgHyyXLQy/oe/lKZIyrJEAIXf/7B77xQKc65y7xPILtuzDcSmftNmd3d/W21dC/WPOQqCthKCXbDhFEHRXnQ+PFpgDYbv4tXkUmQbA70mVxoHWvhgy03ZJlh4slt9tOfLzxKKiGQCeBdJbqzchHnh3KuGG0DLPV0y4+eE1Ob68ogHFd2vQsvkj9JCc7qrDQ7r7/We6svgJdHg3fGqfL/OIfGju3mGVyg5jjF+9AkGnyaUJ356A+2JpZDRONuqAODR+T+LG1iO2M6JpfelIW x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 43f03448-54a7-4a5d-1dff-08d76d6ed991 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Nov 2019 04:05:16.1140 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: GYuFNOAR8WdtgF+9Rk/XiXzzNLPoBJpoagNWtBqwtadk6zkdyk2thvpT/DTsstGhkthca1tWacKTM1y3z1F6Ow== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR06MB4629 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 04:05:23 -0000 Dear colleagues, I'm writing with my Internet Society President & CEO hat on. I've heard some questions in the halls and so on about the proposed transaction in respect of PIR, and I wanted to make something clear. ISOC's recently announced PIR transaction does not affect its long-standing commitment to the IETF. There is no negative change in our support of and alignment with the IETF. In fact, ISOC and IETF are totally aligned on the strategic importance of consensus-based open Internet standards and the principles by which IETF operates -- and will continue to stand by IETF to ensure their continued success. The only thing that changes here, for the Internet Society, is that we switch one source of income for another, roughly equivalent income stream. From the IETF's point of view this change should make no difference. Best regards, A --=20 Andrew Sullivan President & CEO, Internet Society sullivan@isoc.org +1 416 731 1261 From nobody Tue Nov 19 21:40:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F0E12008A; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 21:40:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=isoc.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 95MRm36KiY4V; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 21:40:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM05-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr720047.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.72.47]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F223E120033; 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Wed, 20 Nov 2019 00:38:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 00:37:55 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members To: Barry Leiba Cc: IETF discussion list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000095019c0597c31962" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 08:38:09 -0000 --00000000000095019c0597c31962 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 10:42 PM Barry Leiba wrote: > - I=E2=80=99m NOT talking about the content of the message and whether I = do or > don=E2=80=99t agree with it. That=E2=80=99s not the point. I hope that = as we discuss > this we do NOT go into the content, the politics, and so on. Let=E2=80= =99s > please keep this highly charged issue out of IETF discussions. > Well, sometimes, affiliations can be misleading if included. And, sometimes, omitting them can be misleading as well. thanks, Rob --00000000000095019c0597c31962 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
--00000000000095019c0597c31962-- From nobody Wed Nov 20 01:05:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 016451208D5 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:05:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1152-bit key) header.d=tana.it Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Z5VxvLSVqGv for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:05:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from wmail.tana.it (wmail.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89C4F120251 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:05:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=delta; t=1574240740; bh=yRJuINi1AeTdjIU+6R1W6QxIm+4ruKDWmRhIh3O7Rn8=; l=585; h=To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=CCUzxvWc0cDItGflVfLbruVnhW1aSdkcwEBDHN1a1VZOmy+suXDjjSmdeIaAUU8R4 t29QHP3jsxvQnpldU2ZruI0mpZdERlkI1KrmMgjPbtglnKT2oi0VpWAkxJyG5gfUZP aKadS+I9Kz+AXADFKSlYq/6aFsnIrZh+PmWoteXMiJihjFO4aygVXGZfSHynX Authentication-Results: tana.it; auth=pass (details omitted) Received: from [172.25.197.111] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.111]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 uXDGrn@SYT0/k) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPA id 00000000005DC089.000000005DD501E4.00001AE0; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 10:05:40 +0100 Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members To: ietf@ietf.org References: From: Alessandro Vesely Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <3b0d230f-d600-0a84-595c-790323b5f335@tana.it> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 10:05:40 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 09:05:50 -0000 On Tue 19/Nov/2019 07:42:04 +0100 Barry Leiba wrote: > - I’m NOT talking about the content of the message and whether I do or > don’t agree with it. That’s not the point. I hope that as we discuss > this we do NOT go into the content, the politics, and so on. Let’s > please keep this highly charged issue out of IETF discussions. I'd guess if it had been child porn, then people would have wanted Ted out of the IAB, whether he had mentioned "IAB" in the signature or not. How come we prioritize form over substance only when the substance is good? Best Ale From nobody Wed Nov 20 01:40:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB7212088B for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:40:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.404 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.404 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.244, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BHWS66cV7sQ4 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:40:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-f48.google.com (mail-ot1-f48.google.com [209.85.210.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2D4212026E for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:40:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-f48.google.com with SMTP id r24so20611403otk.12 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:40:46 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9oIwD+La7HEHRc742LQBK0uVJ0XTY+uu2uttSoXug58=; b=o4MfjHkCSUpEBHA45/1/USF+pJea5kRGpb7JwFWYDyGFFknBpvUwYpuAd8ohBW4Cpr q5Dk5MqW8cVHXX+UW23ESCzOfEGB1CujJ42iBDk1M/4GJ6oSt2tAdXB6RuWyBxuGD+Bh LfCfMMmyIbwPt3PxPoN7jiqvZOB2wc4An2OnDkfVStSPpRmF4z4qySb74T/k3lPUKR3x BZNNCwarYAeU/RgqUziYdAfZqrx7Y+Tlq5aw7iSQVzIAIK9IwuEUF1I1UrOULRL2mkWw ABDPJa45KS9rngg1HMQhAYA13uet7qqhNd/luvl70LZjx3pPBxC4IAo0gTAVSYAcMzhw rgBA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVk2RibcbUUb/itmkernSGNcgmBC/nzrUj8YC1w8E62NJ6eBtaJ KOewJSYVJeqQffl+m/QadxNKMyCN2u9TutFv2T6cCgSfy1c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy+U1IgKlyr9FVRBZcYn8SAPCmcWY0Nk7JgxHtFBbTSJYvMtAHtNYygBCPrReziXy0UwSiTd57vm2hrhORIOc4= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:3782:: with SMTP id x2mr1210885otb.21.1574242845878; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:40:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191119134601.45y2uphwbyrn2lqb@mx4.yitter.info> In-Reply-To: <20191119134601.45y2uphwbyrn2lqb@mx4.yitter.info> From: Barry Leiba Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 17:40:34 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members To: Andrew Sullivan Cc: IETF discussion list Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 09:40:47 -0000 Responding to Andrew's message, but to other things said/asked as well. > > I think this is wildly inappropriate. First, here, as several people have mentioned: I should not have said "wildly"; that's hyperbole. I still think the way the letter was signed was inappropriate, but I'm sorry for including "wildly". > =E2=80=A6 I think it is wildly appropriate. The _very point_ of the IAB = is > that it is not subject to consensus rules that the IETF is. But it *is* subject to consensus within itself, and there was not IAB consensus to publish the letter. My point is that those signing and posting it should have been more careful about making it *clear* to *non-IETF people* that they're giving personal opinion and are not speaking for the IAB. We should not assume that outsiders would understand that (and see more about the signatures below). > If IAB members cannot tell people, "I have this view and, by the way, > my community appointed me to this August Body precisely so that I > would have views and say them," then I am mystified what we want the > IAB for except simple constitutional duties. The NomCom did not appoint 12 IAB members for them to roam the (real or virtual) world making statements about the Internet as "Member, Internet Architecture Board". My point, again, is not that they need to *hide* their affiliation with the IAB, but that they should be very clear when they use that affiliation that they are not speaking for the IAB. People have asked whether this or that modification would have made me less sad, and the answer is very much "Yes," so let me give some examples: - It would have been much less of an issue for me if Ted had been the only one signing it, as I think it would have made it much less likely that people might think it came from the IAB. - It would have been *much* less of an issue for me, and perhaps none at all, if there had been some non-IAB signatures, as then it would have been pretty clear that this wasn't from the IAB. - It would have been somewhat less of an issue for me if company affiliations were included, as that would have diluted the "Member, IAB" part of the signatures. - Of course, it would have been no issue at all had there been a notation before the signatures to the effect of, "The IAB members signing below are speaking for themselves as individuals," or some such. And thanks, everyone, for the discussion of this. 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20191120040506.x5afhklsrlylq5mq@outlook.office365.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 10:55:05 -0000 Hi Andrew, I have a followup question: > The only thing that changes here, for the Internet Society, is that we > switch one source of income for another, roughly equivalent income > stream. From the IETF's point of view this change should make no > difference. Am I right in thinking income was/is not the only relevant aspect of ISOCs ownership of PIR ? How is governance going to be structured going forward for instance? I'm sorry if this is an FAQ that was already covered elsewhere. Cheers Leif From nobody Wed Nov 20 03:37:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F2E120289 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 03:37:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=isoc.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jJvUfoirh-75 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 03:37:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM03-DM3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr800044.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.80.44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A326120043 for ; 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It was not the only relevant aspect, no, though it was an important one. But I don't think that the governance of this is relevant to the IETF, and I don't believe the IETF list is an appropriate place to answer these questions. I'll answer your questions off-list, but I encourage people who wish to discuss such issues to do so on one of the ISOC lists where it is being discussed. Best regards, A --=20 Andrew Sullivan President & CEO, Internet Society sullivan@isoc.org +1 416 731 1261 From nobody Wed Nov 20 06:22:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CF781200E6 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 06:22:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lh_kqMYCgbgA for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 06:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CAE01208DA for ; 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Wed, 20 Nov 2019 15:21:58 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 15:21:58 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola Reply-To: Vittorio Bertola To: Barry Leiba Cc: IETF discussion list Message-ID: <917383194.14739.1574259718057@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20191119134601.45y2uphwbyrn2lqb@mx4.yitter.info> Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.2-Rev17 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 14:22:02 -0000 > Il 20 novembre 2019 10:40 Barry Leiba ha scritto: > > But it *is* subject to consensus within itself, and there was not IAB > consensus to publish the letter. My point is that those signing and > posting it should have been more careful about making it *clear* to > *non-IETF people* that they're giving personal opinion and are not > speaking for the IAB. We should not assume that outsiders would > understand that (and see more about the signatures below). I have been attending the IETF for just two years and I am still trying to understand the mechanisms in full, but this is why perhaps I can provide a reasonable "non-IETF" view (speaking personally and without offense to anyone). In full honesty, when I read the letter, my perception was: 1. this is a pretty strong move for an organization that claims a global mandate and a purely technical role, and as such should refrain from entering into political matters and national affairs; (yes, the authors are commenting as individuals on a specific Internet-related issue, but outside of this community this will still be perceived as "the IETF taking a position on a hot geopolitical matter", and I stress "the IETF", as the difference between IETF, IRTF, IESG and IAB is arcane for almost everyone outside of this list, even in other Internet governance organizations, so if the distinction between individual and organizational capacity is lost, this will be perceived as an "IETF position") 2. it looks like there has been an internal argument and about half of the IAB supports this statement while the rest opposes its release, otherwise this would have been published as an IAB statement. If these two points (as I guess) were not what the authors meant to communicate to the world, perhaps they could have chosen a different way to present the letter. For example, it is actually quite common, in this kind of letter, to solicit signatures by selected people from different backgrounds and affiliations before releasing it, exactly to avoid the impression that the letter represents the view of a specific organization or community. Also, either you just list all names without any affiliation, or you list names and affiliations that gave permission to be associated with the letter, or you add terms like "in personal capacity" or "not speaking for the organization" near any affiliation that is mentioned without being represented by the letter, or in the text whenever it refers to "we"; and the more so if the content is sensitive. I really do not see other alternatives. I hope that this can explain why I find Barry's concerns quite justified, when he refers to how this could be perceived outside of this community. By the way, I was also surprised by the comparison between the IAB and a Parliament, because my understanding was that IAB members were not selected for their personal views and were not there to advocate these views against different ones, but were meant to be a pool of competence and experience that would produce the best possible common opinion. Apologies for getting this wrong, but I am sure this could be another common misunderstanding. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Wed Nov 20 07:31:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 961FC1200F9 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 07:31:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BOVvMUHa63-1 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 07:31:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35BC11200B1 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 07:31:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from dhcp-9c88.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-9c88.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.156.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 47J69d5B6HzyNL; Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:31:33 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <56C8EA09FD384C8127E0E4B8@PSB> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 23:31:31 +0800 Cc: Andrew Sullivan , IETF Discussion , Ted Hardie X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 595956689.70727-774a96e7571ae831cd229ca37b605ca5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <777E6F0B-3E6B-4A26-8DA9-C0C24E0F984C@tzi.org> References: <20191119134601.45y2uphwbyrn2lqb@mx4.yitter.info> <56C8EA09FD384C8127E0E4B8@PSB> To: John C Klensin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 15:31:49 -0000 On Nov 20, 2019, at 07:29, John C Klensin wrote: >=20 > The level of understanding in governments and communities > outside ones related to Internet technology about what the IAB > is and the role it plays differ widely Well, most people know the IAB is the Interactive Advertising Bureau, = which is rightly upset when they can=E2=80=99t sell their advertising = just because some insurgence is in progress. 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Wed, 20 Nov 2019 17:53:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.19.216.177] ([2001:67c:370:128:6818:7df3:f4f5:b8ef]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m34sm504013pgb.26.2019.11.20.17.53.36 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 20 Nov 2019 17:53:37 -0800 (PST) From: "Aaron Falk" To: "IRTF Discuss" , "IETF WG Chairs" , "IETF Discussion" , "106 attendees" <106attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Tonight: Let's have some fun: PechaKucha & friends Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 09:53:33 +0800 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13r5655) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_241C345C-7272-4431-B166-7A2F7284815D_=" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 01:53:41 -0000 --=_MailMate_241C345C-7272-4431-B166-7A2F7284815D_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed; markup=markdown Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you are present in Singapore for IETF-106 **you are invited** to = attend tonight=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CPechaKucha & Friends=E2=80=9D at 9:30pm= in Sophia. Here = are the working titles for tonight=E2=80=99s talks: | Title (not in presentation order) | | --- | | *What if we were working on other nice things?* | | *The IETF's discrimination against the NBA* | | *"transitioning from academia to industry" or =E2=80=9Ccamels"* | | *A Fresh Look at QUIC* | | *Down the Rabbit Hole* | | *The Work* | | *How 10 lines of code generate half of DNS root traffic* | | *On the issue of being=E2=80=A6* | Hope to see you there! --aaron On 13 Nov 2019, at 3:43, Aaron Falk wrote: > Still looking for a few more presenters for next Thursday night... > > This is a call for participation in a social event around satirical = > short talks. (There is usually beer involved.) In the past, talks = > needed to fit the PechaKucha format but it is rather strict (20 = > slides, each on screen for 20 seconds, minimal text). So, I=E2=80=99d = like = > to repeat the experiment we tried in Montreal. Any talk format will = > be allowed (including PK) with a maximum length of 7 minutes. As = > before, the topics are encouraged to be a IETF-related and satirical = > or controversial in some way, although not mean-spirited. Anyone can = > participate in this unofficial social event. > > Date: Thursday evening (November 21) starting at 9:30pm in Sophia. > > If you haven=E2=80=99t been to one of these events, Here are two of my = > personal favorites from prior IETFs by = > [Pete](http://bapk-videos.mamadrum.net/old/IETF-099-Prague-videos/07-pe= te-resnick-8.mp4) = > and = > [Brian](http://bapk-videos.mamadrum.net/old/IETF-099-Prague-videos/IETF= -096-Berlin-videos/2_trammel-8.mp4). = > Video from the past BA PKs can be found = > [here](http://bapk-videos.mamadrum.net). > > If you want to do a pechakucha, there are lots of online tutorials and = > suggestions for how to make a good PechaKucha. Here are a few: = > [[1](http://www.pechakucha.org/)], = > [[2](http://blog.indezine.com/2012/05/10-tips-to-create-and-present-pec= ha.html)], = > [[3](https://catherinecronin.wordpress.com/2012/06/13/pecha-kucha/)]. > > As my friend Spencer says: =E2=80=9CMake good decisions, People!=E2=80=9D= > > Format Details: > > * Presentation slots are open to all, assigned first come, first = > served. > * To reserve a presentation slot, send a name and title to = > aaron.falk@gmail.com and receive confirmation. > * Presenters must agree to limit their talks to less than 7 minutes = > (strictly enforced using the Lars Eggert Approach). > * Slides are due Thursday 6pm in Powerpoint or PDF. --=_MailMate_241C345C-7272-4431-B166-7A2F7284815D_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If you are present in Singapore for IETF-106 you = are invited to attend tonight=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CPechaKucha &= ; Friends=E2=80=9D at 9:30pm in Sophia. Here are the working titles for t= onight=E2=80=99s talks:

Title (not in presentation order)
What if w= e were working on other nice things?
The IETF'= s discrimination against the NBA
"transiti= oning from academia to industry" or =E2=80=9Ccamels"
A Fresh L= ook at QUIC
Down the = Rabbit Hole
The Work<= /em>
How 10 li= nes of code generate half of DNS root traffic
On the is= sue of being=E2=80=A6

Hope to see you there!

--aaron

On 13 Nov 2019, at 3:43, Aaron Falk wrote:

Still looking for a few more presenters for next Thursday= night...

This is a call for participation in a social event around= satirical short talks. (There is usually beer involved.) In the past, = talks needed to fit the PechaKucha format but it is rather strict (20 sli= des, each on screen for 20 seconds, minimal text). So, I=E2=80=99d like = to repeat the experiment we tried in Montreal. Any talk format will be a= llowed (including PK) with a maximum length of 7 minutes. As before, the= topics are encouraged to be a IETF-related and satirical or controversia= l in some way, although not mean-spirited. Anyone can participate in thi= s unofficial social event.

Date: Thursday evening (November 21) starting at 9:30pm i= n Sophia.

If you haven=E2=80=99t been to one of these events, Here = are two of my personal favorites from prior IETFs by Pete and Brian. Video from the past BA PKs can be found here.<= /p>

If you want to do a pechakucha, there are lots of online = tutorials and suggestions for how to make a good PechaKucha. Here are a = few: [1],= [2], [3]= =2E

As my friend Spencer says: =E2=80=9CMake good decisions, = People!=E2=80=9D

Format Details:

  • Presentation slots are open to all, assigned first come, first served= =2E
  • To reserve a presentation slot, send a name and title to aaron.falk@gmail.com= and receive confirmation.
  • Presenters must agree to limit their talks to less than 7 minutes (st= rictly enforced using the Lars Eggert Approach).
  • Slides are due Thursday 6pm in Powerpoint or PDF.
--=_MailMate_241C345C-7272-4431-B166-7A2F7284815D_=-- From nobody Thu Nov 21 16:06:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187F2120219 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:06:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qSBUZwyVnPtD for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com (mail-pg1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CE8F120091 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id b1so2443419pgq.10 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:06:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Xm0t8/9wVaOAhClBvVCxJq8W9ruDt9lspMBe7YgQaSg=; b=h42x+EY1F6uPH4hrOczSPIJT4A0eeDe5m58v2kbQSSfbT0VR0/HkgFERkXdWvhme0j 0XzyKOyPlPiG0rIKStRcbHY1V5cSkAnzHANfbEGkObjIy2wGXZD//QGhai+xT/sER0dE 55CJ9sjdGCpOBC+VyT8Wjg0d6ocT3uKa0Sil8M/BfaMPLMHT1gtgtnVuIKwh91rDB+Fq Cw1M543OhDHTYgsOtgimIglc38xmijya8h5QWoIy7LtQUFju6uOm89AQVg0P32roUsEa ytScUXGAXUe1mFM688TbprynZhSnbMoK25Vu4G9LSg/1Cs/LsPHzZGTyAafI0YBz4hpk Xtaw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Xm0t8/9wVaOAhClBvVCxJq8W9ruDt9lspMBe7YgQaSg=; b=FMaD+JW7vSTDcrJNgQkpOJy6yxDiFm8eT+tzEk/uHwUQJ2HFbdSdkR3PwROJDpVIcw CznF1wy2H86IaUXXXLpih17DIVHTlmMhbRWPzpDjqzHrR1ws2bcdn3dP4fm0KMZrwObT EAWwT+V9umu55tGEL62WMDwvQ9RDZOuazO+wNFpUMPtJrfLW4gOOmlzl49WDgn6VOrK3 KZJYOzsiUFQZxazsYXity120xwqI0O4PCJKT6ByGvaFTKZXQlH2h1AMGC/g0T127A7n6 M4JSEJQhot6jB9HvhdjDN2oJpqmJJbzHwu3GGMitmQf1CXW8PGh+VtrafGnkAAe95PXq pHQQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVhT7ML2U0Fh2RkSBJTSsgCVNg8xWq8Q0+FwgewZ6uX7ln4W8TW 6w9XoKa56GZnKfYxKTiFGs5rz3yr X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzzBbRe2KXfEbacWQVUCq2yT52rpFSgAPj5XYHI6xFQl5E3A0H5ocqUFhpe4o2GgKYhAVE1Lw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:1916:: with SMTP id z22mr6530741pgl.206.1574381201018; Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [31.133.151.10] (dhcp-970a.meeting.ietf.org. [31.133.151.10]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a16sm4129191pgb.7.2019.11.21.16.06.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:06:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: IAB report to the community To: Ted Hardie , iab@iab.org, ietf@ietf.org, "execd@iab.org" References: <7f516417-415b-367c-f8c5-a508942c034b@iab.org> <53ea834a-1b72-08d7-0c13-24e9d55efcf8@iab.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:06:37 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <53ea834a-1b72-08d7-0c13-24e9d55efcf8@iab.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 00:06:43 -0000 Hi Ted, On 18-Nov-19 15:38, Ted Hardie wrote: > Hi Brian, >=20 > Thanks for the review. >=20 > On 11/18/19 9:01 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Thanks for the report, Ted. However I do want to raise one issue. You = say:... >>> The IAB has a few chartered roles. It ... appoints the RFC series edi= tor and oversight committee,...=20 >> Actually the charter (RFC850, BCP39) does not say that. What it says i= s: >> >> "The IAB must approve the appointment of an organization to >> act as RFC Editor and the general policy followed by the RFC Editor." >=20 > I'm happy to take a PR for future iterations of the report.=C2=A0 RFC 2= 850 is the charter and has the text you cite.=C2=A0 At the moment, the me= chanisms by which it is carried out is in RFC 6635, Section 2.1, which sa= ys: >=20 > The RSE is appointed by the IAB, but formally hired by the IAOC. Th= e > IAB delegates the direct oversight over the RSE to the RSOC, which i= t > appoints. >=20 > The reference to the IAOC is changed in https://datatracker.ietf.org/do= c/draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc6635bis/, which is currently in the RFC Editor's qu= eue.=C2=A0 >=20 > All of this may change as the result of the ongoing community discussio= ns, but if you have a pithy way of summarizing all of that that we can us= e until it does change, as I said, I'd be happy to have it to hand. I've mulled it over, and I think that wordsmithing this before the RSEME = discussion has advanced somewhat would be rather pointless. I will file t= his away for now, but perhaps come back to it before IETF 107. Regards Brian >=20 > regards, >=20 > Ted Hardie >=20 >> I think that at the moment it's important to distinguish what is forma= lly >> chartered by BCP from what is current practice. >> >> Regards >> Brian Carpenter >> >> From nobody Thu Nov 21 17:19:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49F5412009E for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2019 17:19:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3unAosyWzqIl for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2019 17:19:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x431.google.com (mail-pf1-x431.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::431]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 605BA12008F for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2019 17:19:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x431.google.com with SMTP id c184so2666055pfb.0 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2019 17:19:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=iQSeop9g/LDMlIPArk95PdxTPgAen26kVs+NSCMTXHM=; b=EqO8RevJ3fSS4Xx8EvN74394uVx5iJMLaiOu6LIwx+0acL2OWFwLK1zpkDizg/wBBV zxeG9WJP2HqKz+jh9aK5L0AbhbGRltKTqM9Tr7xJ2QSMXuouX0EJ1ABHrhReRtj4/8KQ 2fgxXhQIcYWWV1Paz4s21a5cvNUFn5LJuesq2r2ZLc44LWZyanCZt6vplT0MV1fEc1n3 b5yPBtMDJPK2npnbNaZah7CfOX2PTaq7dsPAZortog4lq57ucuFbmhc4OyOUn2EdqbIH VtaTP6qNz0v15K8CLh8w835qCQNUoqDtv56NerQymy07p/wnxCgXTSfrWuSkiSgZ/xRH uUEw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=iQSeop9g/LDMlIPArk95PdxTPgAen26kVs+NSCMTXHM=; b=XJyxmyjydeDl8ASvXFVVn+ExIHONnCHnm2EbOS7VXKQgeucuM5nf7Sra5+eroxAWui ITYHq8pJ+XZsJm2wQ6whrOCHmH+OrGKONs54/5NZqyon+1aooOk6Bd7txMFJGlhw+xTD /blG8Y4+F7W5EeIS+v8aWNpzAiKJhL5e+wMrbN3MpFgUKijTGakE/jbr7kh3AwOqIpDo NW0ElMpAgITGhgxS21NI4DJrmz2tZI8c+47KejyRlgUpBh7AurK2hXi0I8Qjw1GywbDE Jgem7tQr39qAf3L3oHyNHScjSEHrV6mIRYlyZ21Q7pl0Ap8nb3SWHB0885pmUiA99jB1 Ommw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXh17auEmJ8Xj+t104aY/a2ce6Posgt+LUcn9gUAB7Gibwp0Rhx 6F6Xw9PJvXl4b9b/9tSAVWI9ajrnSyVu7g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwWlgvY1q8E/YmoIjwF7r0sdqn1LUKZrkQsGNxbOp2GolAegwz1h31mo+SpSrVjk0iRJEoJxQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:ec4b:: with SMTP id r11mr12630184pgj.147.1574385581921; Thu, 21 Nov 2019 17:19:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [31.133.148.93] (dhcp-945d.meeting.ietf.org. [31.133.148.93]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n15sm5160076pfq.146.2019.11.21.17.19.40 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 21 Nov 2019 17:19:40 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Leif Johansson Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: On IETF support (was Re: Important Announcement from the Internet Society and Public Interest Registry) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 09:19:39 +0800 Message-Id: <63A4208C-EF9A-4574-B3DC-801763A792A3@mnt.se> References: <20191120113723.hql4rf45e5j4vnge@outlook.office365.com> Cc: "ietf@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <20191120113723.hql4rf45e5j4vnge@outlook.office365.com> To: Andrew Sullivan X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A878) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 01:19:45 -0000 Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone > 20 nov. 2019 kl. 19:38 skrev Andrew Sullivan : >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019, Leif Johansson wrote: >>=20 >> Am I right in thinking income was/is not the only relevant aspect of >> ISOCs ownership of PIR ? >=20 > It was not the only relevant aspect, no, though it was an important one. >=20 > But I don't think that the governance of this is relevant to the IETF, > and I don't believe the IETF list is an appropriate place to answer > these questions. I'll answer your questions off-list, but I encourage > people who wish to discuss such issues to do so on one of the ISOC > lists where it is being discussed. As a noob in this particular world I gotta ask: what are those lists? Cheers Leif >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > A > --=20 > Andrew Sullivan > President & CEO, Internet Society > sullivan@isoc.org > +1 416 731 1261 >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 21 18:56:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7072B120120 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:27:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.101 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_SUMOF=5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PCiCa6wc6BNo for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:27:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from cuda.olm1.com (cuda.olm1.com [72.236.255.32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42B11120073 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:27:23 -0800 (PST) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1574194463-13786435eb364110001-h9jmKw Received: from host105.olm1.com (host105.olm1.com [72.236.255.15]) by cuda.olm1.com with ESMTP id g6K9FMHGCT8byaQV (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:14:23 -0500 (EST) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: victor.demjanenko@vocal.com X-Barracuda-Effective-Source-IP: host105.olm1.com[72.236.255.15] X-Barracuda-Apparent-Source-IP: 72.236.255.15 Received: from HERTELLT (rrcs-72-43-202-98.nys.biz.rr.com [72.43.202.98]) by host105.olm1.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AF5BAB5D9AC; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:14:22 -0500 (EST) From: To: "'Benjamin Kaduk'" , "'Barry Leiba'" Cc: "'Roni Even \(A\)'" , "'The IESG'" , "'Catherine Meadows'" , "'IETF SecDir'" , , "'Ali Begen'" , , , "'Dave Satterlee \(Vocal\)'" , "'IETF discussion list'" , , References: <157007038502.8860.1558861534319247512.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <001601d57af9$405efcf0$c11cf6d0$@vocal.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD23D79BC0@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <034a01d58a73$f4d3a1c0$de7ae540$@vocal.com> <037e01d58a92$72287510$56795f30$@vocal.com> <20191101001153.GQ88302@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20191101001153.GQ88302@kduck.mit.edu> Subject: RE: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:14:21 -0500 X-ASG-Orig-Subj: RE: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Message-ID: <06e101d59f15$ee937b30$cbba7190$@vocal.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AQKF5W0DvD42FGb/qFKkK3bBTKTeXwLglFUwAo/9rkMBQrixDgL+oF71AnDrF6QCpTAEF6W8HORw X-Barracuda-Connect: host105.olm1.com[72.236.255.15] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1574194463 X-Barracuda-Encrypted: ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 X-Barracuda-URL: https://72.236.255.32:443/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at olm1.com X-Barracuda-Scan-Msg-Size: 31078 X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.2, rules version 3.2.3.78114 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.00 NO_REAL_NAME From: does not include a real name Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 18:56:48 -0800 X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 20:27:26 -0000 Hi Ben, Sorry I overlooked sending you a response. I would like to address the two concerns you have by explaining what the speech coders are doing. WRT to 600 bps MELP, there is one TSVCIS mode that uses one bit beyond the 54-bit frame for MELP 600 as a frame sync which alternates between frames. With two or more MELP 600bps frames in one RTP packet, if any frame indicates 600 bps by CODA being 0 and CODB being 1, then we know the stream is 600bps. If there is a single frame in an RTP packet, you can still deduce this by looking at every other RTP packet (every other MELP 600bps frame) and by the timestamp advance. Most likely the two ends would negotiate 600 bps in SDP anyways so there really should not be a problem. I know it's not pretty but its workable. I hope this explanation helps you with the concerns for this issue. As for the TSVCIS parameter packing/unpacking, this is really simple. There is exactly on three bit parameter, exactly one five bit parameter and a variable number of eight bit parameters. In our view, the speech coder itself (or a wrapper for it) is responsible for preparing the block of octets. RTP then just transports it. On receive, the complementary wrapper reverses the packing operation. I hope this clarifies and explains the simplicity. Regards, Victor -----Original Message----- From: Benjamin Kaduk Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 8:12 PM To: Barry Leiba Cc: victor.demjanenko@vocal.com; Roni Even (A) ; The IESG ; Catherine Meadows ; IETF SecDir ; draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis@ietf.org; Ali Begen ; avtcore-chairs@ietf.org; avt@ietf.org; Dave Satterlee (Vocal) ; IETF discussion list ; draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis.all@ietf.org Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) I don't think so, unfortunately. I do see the clarification about CODB's potential for deviation from Table 1, that only the 600 bps MELPe is allowed to deviate, and that CODA gets us to "it's one of 2400 or 600 bps" and the RTP timestamp disambiguates that 600 bps is in use. But, it seems that this means that the recipient in general should not rely on CODB to differentiate 600 from 2400 bps, and instead is more robustly implemented by *always* using the RTP timestamp to detect 600 bps, since that will always work and CODB will sometimes not work under conditions not fully specified here. So, if we are unwilling or unable to clarify what those conditions are (e.g., whether at a minimum mutual agreement is required), then I think we need to describe this procedure of consulting the RTP timestamp as the default behavior and avoid giving the impression that CODB should be used to do so. Additionally, I don't see anything to address my concern about TSVCIS parameter decoding. To be clear, the procedure I see this document describing is that: - TSVCIS gives parameters (and their lengths in bits) to the codec described in this document - this document specifies how to densely encode those parameters into a byetstream - RTP transmits that encoded bytestream to the peer - the codec specified by this is responsible for turning that encoded bystream back into a list of TSVCIS parameters (and their length in bits) I don't see how that last step is attainable with only the information provided by this document. I *assume* that one of the TSVCIS specifications has a canonical (ordered) listing of parameters, and that the list of parmeters given to this codec in the first step will always be an initial prefix of that list, but that's just me guessing at how to make sense of the stated procedure given insufficient information. I don't think it's appropriate to make the reader of an RFC guess at what to do; we need to either say how to do it or give a pointer to an external reference that does. -Ben On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 02:26:09PM -0400, Barry Leiba wrote: > Ben, does the -04 version address everything? > > Barry > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 1:42 PM wrote: > > > > I forgot to address security comments in one email. The changes are: > > > > Section 8, second paragraph - Suggested edit by reviewer > > > > (was) > > This RTP payload format and the TSVCIS decoder do not exhibit any > > significant non-uniformity in the receiver-side computational > > complexity for packet processing and thus are unlikely to pose a > > denial-of-service threat due to the receipt of pathological data. > > Additionally, the RTP payload format does not contain any active > > content. > > > > (now) > > This RTP payload format and the TSVCIS decoder, to the best of our > > knowledge, do not exhibit any significant non-uniformity in the > > receiver-side computational complexity for packet processing and thus > > are unlikely to pose a denial-of-service threat due to the receipt of > > pathological data. Additionally, the RTP payload format does not > > contain any active content. > > > > > > Section 8, third paragraph - Suggested edit by reviewer > > > > (was) > > Please see the security considerations discussed in [RFC6562] > > regarding VAD and its effect on bitrates. > > > > (now) > > Please see the security considerations discussed in [RFC6562] > > regarding Voice Activity Detect (VAD) and its effect on bitrates. > > > > Victor > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: victor.demjanenko@vocal.com > > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2019 10:05 AM > > To: 'Roni Even (A)' ; 'Benjamin Kaduk' > > ; 'The IESG' > > Cc: draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis@ietf.org; 'Ali Begen' > > ; avtcore-chairs@ietf.org; avt@ietf.org; > > 'Dave Satterlee (Vocal)' > > Subject: RE: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on > > draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > First we want to thank everyone for their review and comments for this draft RFC. We believe we reviewed all the comments and suggestions and incorporated them adequately in the next draft (04). We'd like to send out this list of exact changes in case anyone has additional comments or thinks the clarifications are inadequate. We would be most happy to address concerns before publishing draft 04 tomorrow. > > > > With so many emails from a half dozen or more reviewers, we apologize that we cannot address each sender individually. We hope this detail is sufficient for everyone. > > > > Again, many thanks to all. > > > > Victor & Dave > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------- > > > > Section 1.1 - Suggested reference to RFC 8088 added. > > > > (was) > > Best current practices for writing an RTP payload format > > specification were followed [RFC2736]. > > > > (now) > > Best current practices for writing an RTP payload format > > specification were followed [RFC2736] [RFC8088]. > > > > > > Section 2, paragraphs 3 and 4 - Suggested edits by reviewers > > > > (was) > > In addition to the augmented speech data, the TSVCIS specification > > identifies which speech coder and framing bits are to be encrypted, > > and how they are protected by forward error correction (FEC) > > techniques (using block codes). At the RTP transport layer, only the > > speech coder related bits need to be considered and are conveyed in > > unencrypted form. In most IP-based network deployments, standard > > link encryption methods (SRTP, VPNs, FIPS 140 link encryptors or Type > > 1 Ethernet encryptors) would be used to secure the RTP speech > > contents. Further, it is desirable to support the highest voice > > quality between endpoints which is only possible without the overhead > > of FEC. > > > > TSVCIS augmented speech data is derived from the signal processing > > and data already performed by the MELPe speech coder. For the > > purposes of this specification, only the general parameter nature of > > TSVCIS will be characterized. Depending on the bandwidth available > > (and FEC requirements), a varying number of TSVCIS specific speech > > coder parameters need to be transported. These are first byte-packed > > and then conveyed from encoder to decoder. > > > > (now) > > In addition to the augmented speech data, the TSVCIS specification > > identifies which speech coder and framing bits are to be encrypted, > > and how they are protected by forward error correction (FEC) > > techniques (using block codes). At the RTP transport layer, only the > > speech-coder-related bits need to be considered and are conveyed in > > unencrypted form. In most IP-based network deployments, standard > > link encryption methods (SRTP, VPNs, FIPS 140 link encryptors or Type > > 1 Ethernet encryptors) would be used to secure the RTP speech > > contents. > > > > TSVCIS augmented speech data is derived from the signal processing > > and data already performed by the MELPe speech coder. For the > > purposes of this specification, only the general parameter nature of > > TSVCIS will be characterized. Depending on the bandwidth available > > (and FEC requirements), a varying number of TSVCIS-specific speech > > coder parameters need to be transported. These are first byte-packed > > and then conveyed from encoder to decoder. > > > > > > Section 3, last sentence paragraph 3 - Suggested edit by reviewer > > > > (was) > > When more than one codec data frame is > > present in a single RTP packet, the timestamp is, as always, that of > > the oldest data frame represented in the RTP packet. > > > > (now) > > When more than one codec data frame is > > present in a single RTP packet, the timestamp specified is that of > > the oldest data frame represented in the RTP packet. > > > > > > Section 3.1, last paragraph - Clarified permission for MELP 600 > > end-to-end framing bit > > > > (was) > > It should be noted that CODB for both the 2400 and 600 bps modes MAY > > deviate from the values in Table 1 when bit 55 is used as an end-to- > > end framing bit. Frame decoding would remain distinct as CODA being > > zero on its own would indicate a 7-byte frame for either rate and the > > use of 600 bps speech coding could be deduced from the RTP timestamp > > (and anticipated by the SDP negotiations). > > > > (now) > > It should be noted that CODB for MELPe 600 bps mode MAY deviate from > > the value in Table 1 when bit 55 is used as an end-to-end framing > > bit. Frame decoding would remain distinct as CODA being zero on its > > own would indicate a 7-byte frame for either 2400 or 600 bps rate and > > the use of 600 bps speech coding could be deduced from the RTP > > timestamp (and anticipated by the SDP negotiations). > > > > > > Section 3.2, first paragraph - Clarifications requested by reviewers > > > > (was) > > The TSVCIS augmented speech data as packed parameters MUST be placed > > immediately after a corresponding MELPe 2400 bps payload in the same > > RTP packet. The packed parameters are counted in octets (TC). In > > the preferred placement, shown in Figure 6, a single trailing octet > > SHALL be appended to include a two-bit rate code, CODA and CODB, > > (both bits set to one) and a six-bit modified count (MTC). The > > special modified count value of all ones (representing a MTC value of > > 63) SHALL NOT be used for this format as it is used as the indicator > > for the alternate packing format shown next. In a standard > > implementation, the TSVCIS speech coder uses a minimum of 15 octets > > for parameters in octet packed form. The modified count (MTC) MUST > > be reduced by 15 from the full octet count (TC). Computed MTC = TC- > > 15. This accommodates a maximum of 77 parameter octets (maximum > > value of MTC is 62, 77 is the sum of 62+15). > > > > (now) > > The TSVCIS augmented speech data as packed parameters MUST be placed > > immediately after a corresponding MELPe 2400 bps payload in the same > > RTP packet. The packed parameters are counted in octets (TC). The > > preferred placement SHOULD be used for TSVCIS payloads with TC less > > than or equal to 77 octets, is shown in Figure 6. In the preferred > > placement, a single trailing octet SHALL be appended to include a > > two-bit rate code, CODA and CODB, (both bits set to one) and a six- > > bit modified count (MTC). The special modified count value of all > > ones (representing a MTC value of 63) SHALL NOT be used for this > > format as it is used as the indicator for the alternate packing > > format shown next. In a standard implementation, the TSVCIS speech > > coder uses a minimum of 15 octets for parameters in octet packed > > form. The modified count (MTC) MUST be reduced by 15 from the full > > octet count (TC). Computed MTC = TC-15. This accommodates a maximum > > of 77 parameter octets (maximum value of MTC is 62, 77 is the sum of > > 62+15). > > > > > > Section 3.3, first paragraph - Suggested edit by reviewer > > > > (was) > > A TSVCIS RTP packet consists of zero or more TSVCIS coder frames > > (each consisting of MELPe and TSVCIS coder data) followed by zero or > > one MELPe comfort noise frame. The presence of a comfort noise frame > > can be determined by its rate code bits in its last octet. > > > > (now) > > A TSVCIS RTP packet payload consists of zero or more consecutive > > TSVCIS coder frames (each consisting of MELPe 2400 and TSVCIS coder > > data), with the oldest frame first, followed by zero or one MELPe > > comfort noise frame. The presence of a comfort noise frame can be > > determined by its rate code bits in its last octet. > > > > > > Section 3.3, fourth paragraph - Clarification requested by reviewers > > > > (was) > > TSVCIS coder frames in a single RTP packet MAY be of different coder > > bitrates. With the exception for the variable length TSVCIS > > parameter frames, the coder rate bits in the trailing byte identify > > the contents and length as per Table 1. > > > > (now) > > TSVCIS coder frames in a single RTP packet MAY have varying TSVCIS > > parameter octet counts. Its packed parameter octet count (length) is > > indicated in the trailing byte(s). All MELPe frames in a single RTP > > packet MUST be of the same coder bitrate. For all MELPe coder > > frames, the coder rate bits in the trailing byte identify the > > contents and length as per Table 1. > > > > > > Section 4.1 - Editor note removed > > > > > > Section 4.1 - Change controller is now > > > > (now) > > Change controller: IETF, contact > > > > > > Section 5, first paragraph - Suggested edits by reviewers > > > > (was) > > A primary application of TSVCIS is for radio communications of voice > > conversations, and discontinuous transmissions are normal. When > > TSVCIS is used in an IP network, TSVCIS RTP packet transmissions may > > cease and resume frequently. RTP synchronization source (SSRC) > > sequence number gaps indicate lost packets to be filled by PLC, while > > abrupt loss of RTP packets indicates intended discontinuous > > transmissions. > > > > (now) > > A primary application of TSVCIS is for radio communications of voice > > conversations, and discontinuous transmissions are normal. When > > TSVCIS is used in an IP network, TSVCIS RTP packet transmissions may > > cease and resume frequently. RTP synchronization source (SSRC) > > sequence number gaps indicate lost packets to be filled by Packet > > Loss Concealment (PLC), while abrupt loss of RTP packets indicates > > intended discontinuous transmissions. Resumption of voice > > transmission SHOULD be indicated by the RTP marker bit (M) set to 1. > > > > > > Section 10 - Added reference > > > > (added) > > [RFC8088] Westerlund, M., "How to Write an RTP Payload Format", > > RFC 8088, DOI 10.17487/RFC8088, May 2017, > > . > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------------------- > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Roni Even (A) > > Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2019 2:09 AM > > To: victor.demjanenko@vocal.com; 'Benjamin Kaduk' ; > > 'The IESG' > > Cc: draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis@ietf.org; 'Ali Begen' > > ; avtcore-chairs@ietf.org; avt@ietf.org; > > 'Dave Satterlee (Vocal)' > > Subject: RE: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on > > draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > Hi, > > About the reference to TSVCIS. > > The RTP payload is about how to encapsulate the payload in an RTP packet. The objective is to define how an RTP stack can insert the tsvcis frames and extract the tsvcis frames from the RTP packet. Typically it is not required to understand the payload structure in order to be able to perform the encapsulation. > > This is why the reference to the payload is Informational and we did > > not require to have it publically available. If there is a need to > > understand the payload itself for the encapsulating than we need > > more information in the RTP payload specification and a publically > > available normative reference. I think this is not the case here > > > > Roni Even > > > > AVTCore co-chair (ex Payload) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: victor.demjanenko@vocal.com > > [mailto:victor.demjanenko@vocal.com] > > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2019 12:18 AM > > To: 'Benjamin Kaduk'; 'The IESG' > > Cc: draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis@ietf.org; 'Ali Begen'; avtcore-chairs@ietf.org; avt@ietf.org; 'Victor Demjanenko, Ph.D.'; 'Dave Satterlee (Vocal)' > > Subject: RE: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on > > draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > Everyone, > > > > Thanks for the comments. I think I mis-understood the ambiguity with respect to to changing rates within a RTP packet. That was not plan. An RTP packet must have MELP speech frames of the same rate. What is possible is that the amount of augmented TSVCIS speech data may vary from one speech frame to the next. This allows for a dynamic VDR as suggested by the NRL paper. So an RTP packet may have varying TSVCIS data but must always have MELPe 2400 data. > > > > Again backwards parsing is necessary but the timestamp uniformly increments 22.5msec per combined MELP/TSVCIS speech frame. > > > > The NRL is a good public reference on the VDR aspects. The actual TSVCIS spec we had was FOUO so we could not replicate its detail. (I believe a later spec is public or at least partially public. I am trying to get this.) The opaque data is pretty obvious with the TSVCIS spec in hand. > > > > We will address the issues/concerns raised next week. Other business had priority. > > > > Thank you and enjoy the weekend. > > > > Regards, > > > > Victor & Dave > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker > > Sent: Wednesday, October 2, 2019 10:40 PM > > To: The IESG > > Cc: draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis@ietf.org; Ali Begen > > ; avtcore-chairs@ietf.org; > > ali.begen@networked.media; avt@ietf.org > > Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: > > (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > > draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: Discuss > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to > > all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to > > cut this introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > Please refer to > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis/ > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > DISCUSS: > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > > I support Magnus' point about the time-ordering of adjacent frames in a packet. > > > > Additionally, I am not sure that there's quite enough here to be interoperably implementable. Specifically, we seem to be lacking a description of how an encoder or decoder knows which TSVCIS parameters, and in what order, to byte-pack or unpack, respectively. One might surmise that there is a canonical listing in [TSVCIS], but this document does not say that, and furthermore [TSVCIS] is only listed as an informative reference. (I couldn't get my hands on my copy, at least on short notice.) If we limited ourselves to treating the TSVCIS parameters as an entirely opaque blob (codec, convey these N octets to the peer with the appropriate one- or two-byte trailer for payload type identification and framing), that would be interoperably implementable, since the black-box bits are up to some other codec to interpret. > > > > In a similar vein, we mention but do not completely specify the potential for using CODB as an end-to-end framing bit, in Section 3.1 (see Comment), which is not interoperably implementable without further details. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > COMMENT: > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > > Where is [TSVCIS] available? > > > > Is [NRLVDR] the same as > > https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a588068.pdf ? A URL in the references would be helpful. > > > > Is additional TSVCIS data only present after 2400bps MELPe and the first thing to get dropped under bandwidth pressure? The abstract and introduction imply this by calling out MELPe 2400 bps speech parameters explicitly, but Section 3 says that TSVCIS augments standard 600, 1200, and 2400 bps MELP frames. > > > > It's helpful that Section 3.3 gives some general guidance for decoding this payload type ("[t]he way to determine the number of TSVCIS/MELPe frames is to identify each frame type and length"), but I think some generic considerations would be very helpful to the reader much earlier, along the lines of "MELPe and TSVCIS data payloads are decoded from the end, using the CODA and CODB (and, if necessary, CODC and others) bits to determine the type of payload. For MELPe payloads the type also indicates the payload length, whereas for TSVCIS data an additional length field is present, in one of two possible formats. A TSVCIS coder frame consists of a MELPe data payload followed by zero or one TSVCIS data payload; after the TSVCIS payload's presence/length is determined, then the preceding MELPe payload can be determined and decoded. Per Section 3.3, multiple TSVCIS frames can be present in a single RTP packet." This (or something like it) would also serve to clarify the role of the COD* bits, which is otherwise only implicitly introduced. > > > > Section 1.1 > > > > RFC 2736 is BCP 36 (but it's updated by RFC 8088 which is for some reason an Informational document and not part of BCP 36?!). > > > > Section 2 > > > > In addition to the augmented speech data, the TSVCIS specification > > identifies which speech coder and framing bits are to be encrypted, > > and how they are protected by forward error correction (FEC) > > techniques (using block codes). At the RTP transport layer, only the > > speech coder related bits need to be considered and are conveyed in > > unencrypted form. In most IP-based network deployments, standard > > > > Am I reading this correctly that this text is just summarizing what's in the TSVCIS spec in terms of what needs to be in unencrypted form, so the "only the speech coder related bits[...]" is not new information from this document? I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion, regardless -- won't the (MELPe) speech coder bits be enough to convey the semantic content of the audio stream, something that one might desire to keep confidential? > > > > link encryption methods (SRTP, VPNs, FIPS 140 link encryptors or Type > > 1 Ethernet encryptors) would be used to secure the RTP speech > > contents. Further, it is desirable to support the highest voice > > quality between endpoints which is only possible without the overhead > > of FEC. > > > > I think I'm missing a step in how this conclusion was reached. > > > > TSVCIS will be characterized. Depending on the bandwidth available > > (and FEC requirements), a varying number of TSVCIS specific speech > > coder parameters need to be transported. These are first byte-packed > > and then conveyed from encoder to decoder. > > > > Per the Discuss point, how do I know which parameters need to be transported, and in what order? > > > > Byte packing of TSVCIS speech data into packed parameters is > > processed as per the following example: > > > > Three-bit field: bits A, B, and C (A is MSB, C is LSB) > > Five-bit field: bits D, E, F, G, and H (D is MSB, H is LSB) > > > > MSB LSB > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 > > +------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+ > > | H | G | F | E | D | C | B | A | > > +------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+ > > > > This packing method places the three-bit field "first" in the lowest > > bits followed by the next five-bit field. Parameters may be split > > between octets with the most significant bits in the earlier octet. > > Any unfilled bits in the last octet MUST be filled with zero. > > > > I agree with Adam that this is very unclear. A is the MSB of the three-bit field but the LSB of the octet overall? > > We probably need an example of splitting a parameter across octets as well, to get the bit ordering right. > > > > Section 3.1 > > > > It should be noted that CODB for both the 2400 and 600 bps modes MAY > > deviate from the values in Table 1 when bit 55 is used as an end-to- > > end framing bit. Frame decoding would remain distinct as CODA > > being > > > > Where is the use of CODB as an end-to-end framing bit defined? If we're going to provide neither a complete description of how to do it nor a reference to a better description, we probably shouldn't mention it at all. > > > > Section 3.2 > > > > RTP packet. The packed parameters are counted in octets (TC). In > > the preferred placement, shown in Figure 6, a single trailing octet > > SHALL be appended to include a two-bit rate code, CODA and CODB, > > > > I'd consider saying something about this being the preferred format > > ("placement") due to its shorter length than the alternative, and say that it "SHOULD be used for TSVCIS payloads with TC less than or equal to 77 octetes". > > > > Section 3.3 > > > > When a longer packetization interval is used, is that indicated by signaling or RTP timestamps or otherwise? > > > > TSVCIS coder frames in a single RTP packet MAY be of different coder > > bitrates. With the exception for the variable length TSVCIS > > parameter frames, the coder rate bits in the trailing byte identify > > the contents and length as per Table 1. > > > > Maybe also note that the penultimate octet gives the length there? > > > > Information describing the number of frames contained in an RTP > > packet is not transmitted as part of the RTP payload. The way to > > determine the number of TSVCIS/MELPe frames is to identify each frame > > type and length thereby counting the total number of octets within > > the RTP packet. > > > > terminology nit: if a frame is the combination of MELPe and TSVCIS payload data units then there are two layres of decoding to get a length for the frame, since we have to get the TSVCIS length and then the MELPe length. > > > > Section 4.2 > > > > Parameter "ptime" cannot be used for the purpose of specifying > > the > > > > nit: missing article ("The parameter") > > > > will be impossible to distinguish which mode is about to be used > > (e.g., when ptime=68, it would be impossible to distinguish if the > > packet is carrying one frame of 67.5 ms or three frames of 22.5 ms). > > > > So how is the operating mode determined, then? > > (I think this is the same question I asked above) > > > > Section 4.4 > > > > For example, if offerer bitrates are "2400,600" and answer bitrates > > are "600,2400", the initial bitrate is 600. If other bitrates are > > provided by the answerer, any common bitrate between the offer and > > answer MAY be used at any time in the future. Activation of these > > other common bitrates is beyond the scope of this document. > > > > It seems important to specify whether this requires a new O/A exchange or can be done "spontaneously" by just encoding different frame types. > > (It seems like the latter is possible, on first glance, and this is > > implied by Section 3.3's discussion of mixing them in a single > > packet.) > > > > Section 5 > > > > Please expand PLC at first use (not second). > > > > Section 6 > > > > I don't understand the PLC usage. Is the idea that a receiver, on seeing an SSRC gap, constructs fictitious PLC frames to "fill the gap" > > and passes the resulting stream to the decoder? > > > > Section 8 > > > > and important considerations in [RFC7201]. Applications SHOULD use > > one or more appropriate strong security mechanisms. The rest of this > > section discusses the security-impacting properties of the payload > > format itself. > > > > I thought we described TSVCIS itself (much earlier in the document) as requiring encryption for some data; wouldn't that translate to a "MUST" > > here and not a "SHOULD"? > > > > > > From nobody Thu Nov 21 21:13:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 478EA120A66 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2019 21:13:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=isoc.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZXXitoMsJBo6 for ; 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FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: isoc.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 23Lb62s++rhQh6kYOUgE619xtUYGohTd4Y9A4Yz9F54zjqmz8C9CzUzBB1wRsrwAXl8Qu5L3VkZjuGZt+PkhAJHJFcqWRuYr/JZ8ND+7RCSW/txkksANL0MxdoURakzj+kfH02dALpuMHZwiD2pmA9rB2q8+qttguOlQz+9KiphDzDl+ZwFnkB/YGTK5nGsuNnl+FaXP4HM+cxZ3sS9vTynzAOBFt3AHdZ1f/WScCOYniIZWy7TmLWZ4omIHljw+dXgmXZIZn5k5yF7lxwvHneY8LwWF6ShBOU+oYNw2hKtbvVidJHl2EyisWBxVbF+WolLilpIRaROndegT7FdStMVPDd/N/+6RH30CALX0v85fdZ5CIyVHpqz8gkHwOVtWO2wlzWDkpMQpHoJBwIP9Yh/kR+n9iXGHhhHHvfOTkW2pdYjMh95jYCqvAbWlNXAcbjwKky/X4jrgILQ8LoSQC8XFxPFwVHF3TaAFrAQcw8I= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <307C2F2C8093AA47ACB998544DF3046C@namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 84778da0-5a4b-4f37-d2d4-08d76f0abd50 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 Nov 2019 05:13:41.4550 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 0NaWMSit8sAK6IsU1UAjXwv2Z7cRoJZmOTRAvpYLbxtnFB3jT6tjlXKScCiyc60U5z7ecHNDlu9Z8Q0RzJ/XFA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR06MB3837 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 05:13:48 -0000 On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 09:19:39AM +0800, Leif Johansson wrote: >=20 > As a noob in this particular world I gotta ask: what are those lists? One is https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internetpolicy. Probably a better one is the chapter-delegates list, but you'd need to be part of an Internet Society chapter to see that traffic. Best regards, A --=20 Andrew Sullivan President & CEO, Internet Society sullivan@isoc.org +1 416 731 1261 From nobody Thu Nov 21 21:53:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91F921207FF for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2019 21:53:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cA6CmKaIDQUO for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2019 21:53:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-001b2d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-001b2d01.pphosted.com [148.163.156.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 428A412002E for ; 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Fri, 22 Nov 2019 05:53:07 GMT Received: from b01ledav005.gho.pok.ibm.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F66AE060 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 05:53:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from b01ledav005.gho.pok.ibm.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64A72AE05C for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 05:53:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (unknown [9.27.200.19]) by b01ledav005.gho.pok.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 05:53:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id xAM5r5SC026088 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 00:53:06 -0500 Received: (from narten@localhost) by rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id xAM5r55S026046 for ietf@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 00:53:05 -0500 From: narten@us.ibm.com Message-Id: <201911220553.xAM5r55S026046@rotala.raleigh.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 00:53:05 -0500 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Weekly posting summary for ietf@ietf.org User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.5 7/5/10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.95,18.0.572 definitions=2019-11-21_07:2019-11-21,2019-11-21 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=579 phishscore=0 suspectscore=13 clxscore=1015 bulkscore=0 impostorscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1910280000 definitions=main-1911220050 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 05:53:13 -0000 Total of 84 messages in the last 7 days. script run at: Fri 22 Nov 2019 12:53:04 AM EST Messages | Bytes | Who --------+------+--------+----------+------------------------ 2.38% | 2 | 26.85% | 475635 | hall@isoc.org 8.33% | 7 | 4.11% | 72835 | mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca 1.19% | 1 | 8.97% | 158840 | paul@nohats.ca 4.76% | 4 | 2.97% | 52671 | jordi.palet=40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org 4.76% | 4 | 2.44% | 43257 | brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com 4.76% | 4 | 2.43% | 43099 | moore@network-heretics.com 3.57% | 3 | 2.90% | 51337 | mnot@mnot.net 2.38% | 2 | 3.86% | 68367 | iab-chair@iab.org 2.38% | 2 | 3.65% | 64750 | nick=40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org 3.57% | 3 | 2.21% | 39133 | bob.hinden@gmail.com 3.57% | 3 | 1.72% | 30481 | lhotka@nic.cz 2.38% | 2 | 2.22% | 39283 | aaron.falk@gmail.com 2.38% | 2 | 2.18% | 38536 | daedulus@btconnect.com 2.38% | 2 | 2.03% | 35949 | ted.ietf@gmail.com 2.38% | 2 | 1.67% | 29641 | shigeya@wide.ad.jp 2.38% | 2 | 1.63% | 28902 | john-ietf@jck.com 2.38% | 2 | 1.53% | 27029 | odonoghue@isoc.org 2.38% | 2 | 1.50% | 26547 | sullivan@isoc.org 2.38% | 2 | 1.28% | 22701 | kaduk@mit.edu 2.38% | 2 | 1.27% | 22479 | rsalz@akamai.com 2.38% | 2 | 1.24% | 21955 | barryleiba@computer.org 1.19% | 1 | 2.37% | 41990 | victor.demjanenko@vocal.com 2.38% | 2 | 0.94% | 16575 | nomcom-chair-2019@ietf.org 1.19% | 1 | 1.51% | 26746 | kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com 1.19% | 1 | 1.11% | 19577 | roni.even@huawei.com 1.19% | 1 | 1.00% | 17715 | lberger@labn.net 1.19% | 1 | 0.89% | 15748 | ott@in.tum.de 1.19% | 1 | 0.83% | 14636 | tjw.ietf@gmail.com 1.19% | 1 | 0.80% | 14109 | vittorio.bertola=40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org 1.19% | 1 | 0.71% | 12578 | ietf@trammell.ch 1.19% | 1 | 0.70% | 12401 | skerner@chromium.org 1.19% | 1 | 0.70% | 12364 | bkaduk@akamai.com 1.19% | 1 | 0.67% | 11939 | narten@us.ibm.com 1.19% | 1 | 0.67% | 11883 | rdd@cert.org 1.19% | 1 | 0.66% | 11777 | leifj@sunet.se 1.19% | 1 | 0.66% | 11704 | ajs@anvilwalrusden.com 1.19% | 1 | 0.64% | 11367 | julian.reschke@gmx.de 1.19% | 1 | 0.62% | 10980 | terry@terrym.net 1.19% | 1 | 0.61% | 10885 | sayrer@gmail.com 1.19% | 1 | 0.61% | 10757 | ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com 1.19% | 1 | 0.59% | 10457 | leifj@mnt.se 1.19% | 1 | 0.59% | 10412 | nico@cryptonector.com 1.19% | 1 | 0.55% | 9676 | randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu 1.19% | 1 | 0.53% | 9334 | job@ntt.net 1.19% | 1 | 0.51% | 9059 | llc-board-chair@ietf.org 1.19% | 1 | 0.50% | 8917 | lear@cisco.com 1.19% | 1 | 0.49% | 8609 | vesely@tana.it 1.19% | 1 | 0.47% | 8321 | cabo@tzi.org 1.19% | 1 | 0.43% | 7621 | tte@cs.fau.de --------+------+--------+----------+------------------------ 100.00% | 84 |100.00% | 1771564 | Total From nobody Fri Nov 22 04:13:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BD9E12084D; 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Fri, 22 Nov 2019 04:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from jonathartonsmbp.lan ([182.55.197.52]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k4sm7240236pfa.25.2019.11.22.04.13.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 22 Nov 2019 04:13:26 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: [106attendees] Tonight: Let's have some fun: PechaKucha & friends From: Jonathan Morton In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 20:13:23 +0800 Cc: IRTF Discuss , IETF WG Chairs , IETF Discussion , 106 attendees <106attendees@ietf.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4AAE7ABD-1D77-4086-AA72-9162AADC5C1E@gmail.com> References: To: Aaron Falk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 12:13:29 -0000 > On 21 Nov, 2019, at 9:53 am, Aaron Falk wrote: >=20 > If you are present in Singapore for IETF-106 you are invited to attend = tonight=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CPechaKucha & Friends=E2=80=9D at 9:30pm in = Sophia. Here are the working titles for tonight=E2=80=99s talks: Is there a recording? - Jonathan Morton= From nobody Fri Nov 22 04:15:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEB5E12084D; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 04:15:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ivPaEV3VtaAs; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 04:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x62f.google.com (mail-pl1-x62f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DBFF12003E; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 04:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x62f.google.com with SMTP id s10so3063423plp.2; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 04:15:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=19kpRGCAiUgvlaXxE+mgj4rGV6bhx/Re8Sq2wVL0UH8=; b=O6z5DEPt4xNFwDDx1Rf4RXe4XA57qRlXLvT/bJN9w+g9QBhOzwTb9eSi6VUdUwTmKD pCWaT2pWjHsb+C138DQLJZSSSI4+xC6Dwscp30ZB9cdse7GWzv/xpz5LST440Ny0oSgP cvrSFCRQ3ym36AxOG4tg3awKTHLTCI70fB/GSeHYDc3AWqeJmRazciWvWxOxwLBrRLjP tgmBgNeWhNDtY2ad2r2PAtM6xAUvgBdPBYIax7fvHAJFLwNo00JsWqabQNMfjJtUNTSk nyud/GIAhzSv+nkO7KlVGx3frnmczPIBjXFGPRrDBi2iTrcyzPtIBj6kYsglPhnDuDaB v8Gg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=19kpRGCAiUgvlaXxE+mgj4rGV6bhx/Re8Sq2wVL0UH8=; b=Iq7pRwAiECvygPaadLFCha3shSAKIO5E8CayzpbNUthnbhyGWJQ3ipX8ZVY2Ue1uDp jcPIkDwUYI7MI4Xewltluw6pZUoaouodcsL0tU+lf9owuCZIf15Dv/4sjoQu6KjKybzy thGhQrRpL1FhDXg/RRs7ZMzzBEa7Dz8lastcSwY8AOBL8NREV3VhuV6GG3TXM01B8QgQ rIrwUwbb0EgR+U9YXbbKsvZhyxOMoKdYBjmG5ENXH4VkkCJNYwZqcSq8g2fiWNV4pP35 0KlUdNB3rmSVTiz2cb7ZXH317C+oW0+A5G8O82MnaELoe/tlQrgnjSvuTs2+haRxhKx+ 81hg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWl9pyde6LfBoIoJsvhNVGT+ifi5sYBTzbQ6RhDRk0O0xVM9KRx b6XT9EFglbszWeCwVqXYHXGA5+gyVjgi7LTBDr0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx1/hPE/41Yfcy5RmmKuXpTmbDQC3pQhWs0erccKJOX3cXJAl8jbSfGVzlm2GlsvpID4xpuzcQZ19GnAljMKrE= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:44d:: with SMTP id 71mr13640222ple.22.1574424927351; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 04:15:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4AAE7ABD-1D77-4086-AA72-9162AADC5C1E@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4AAE7ABD-1D77-4086-AA72-9162AADC5C1E@gmail.com> From: Aaron Falk Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 20:15:15 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [106attendees] Tonight: Let's have some fun: PechaKucha & friends To: Jonathan Morton Cc: 106 attendees <106attendees@ietf.org>, IETF Discussion , IETF WG Chairs , IRTF Discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000853b240597ee5ea1" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 12:15:30 -0000 --000000000000853b240597ee5ea1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 8:13 PM Jonathan Morton wrote: > > On 21 Nov, 2019, at 9:53 am, Aaron Falk wrote: > > > > If you are present in Singapore for IETF-106 you are invited to attend > tonight=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CPechaKucha & Friends=E2=80=9D at 9:30pm in Sop= hia. Here are the working > titles for tonight=E2=80=99s talks: > > Is there a recording? > > - Jonathan Morton Stay tuned. I=E2=80=99ll send out a link. --000000000000853b240597ee5ea1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 8:13 PM Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com> wrote:
<= /div>
> On 21 Nov, 2019, at 9:53 am, Aaron= Falk <aaron.f= alk@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If you are present in Singapore for IETF-106 you are invited to attend= tonight=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CPechaKucha & Friends=E2=80=9D at 9:30pm in = Sophia. Here are the working titles for tonight=E2=80=99s talks:

Is there a recording?

=C2=A0- Jonathan Morton

Stay tuned. I=E2=80=99ll send out a link. =C2=A0
--000000000000853b240597ee5ea1-- From nobody Fri Nov 22 05:24:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 088FC120047 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 05:24:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.244, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kVQU2zXUFWcQ for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 05:24:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-f45.google.com (mail-ot1-f45.google.com [209.85.210.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6CCB1200B1 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 05:24:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-f45.google.com with SMTP id w24so6147233otk.6 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 05:24:22 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=j6niBrxOHDYog6VsuLHa7kKxH1VAEx6/6XfjrjNv1gI=; b=jgu75OuU8KwYbVmustP9nFufXp7VVbrEcMNfud2luoyg73AUeUFWxjanIb8PEcEeQy AHkCgfyfLY91wSWKcxl/SG+2yj0LoFrTca6F33kQfXdmpM6Hgze7LIMbfWqaraGN8OaS Dlnac+tAC3etX5vmFO4rVD3SWvgLuxOvrnatzY7GalzT922DMfXd9iXnAUILkghn7vox DhDG4tU/m4ZJyinWsze/1QNlMOKcpqIuX2UD9bBxPxoQsCliYjAdLw2yRYSlC3Sh0R3a UBuTj6DENIw/wF0R2bSUWL2sB279XxbQ0kxFsmc2zGSjyjwCCvrBf3WTodJX6IfrFMaC HUsw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXIJSUMFrTreuhF2ilaWIQOfZFqVdpADBNYbrs44OqBGdFPBFp9 XvPVVdd+/nrQjNBBCTNl9zOv/ba3apiDse0IT2U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzHwBL6MGTI8jBb/gXBhUkA/fEZSlfr6PvCJ7/ntSkA5y/aLuZfAqvcyk6oLd/2ggoJ5m8Is5C0C5wPywBNXRw= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6b90:: with SMTP id b16mr10816480otq.37.1574429061771; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 05:24:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191113165026.njmz4o5vskzuzdsz@isoc.org> <20191120040506.x5afhklsrlylq5mq@outlook.office365.com> In-Reply-To: <20191120040506.x5afhklsrlylq5mq@outlook.office365.com> From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 21:24:09 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: On IETF support (was Re: Important Announcement from the Internet Society and Public Interest Registry) To: Andrew Sullivan Cc: "ietf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f380650597ef541c" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:24:24 -0000 --000000000000f380650597ef541c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I certainly hope the new income stream is not 'roughly equivalent'. The PIR revenue has been good to date but there is no guarantee that it will remain so in the future. Unless I am missing something, the business point of the change was to diversify. The other benefit to making the change in my view is to end the conflict of interest between specifying standards affecting the DNS and running a DNS registry. While this change may have consequences for PIR name holders, their interests are not the ones that the ISOC trustees are primarily concerned with protecting. On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 12:05 PM Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I'm writing with my Internet Society President & CEO hat on. I've > heard some questions in the halls and so on about the proposed > transaction in respect of PIR, and I wanted to make something clear. > > ISOC's recently announced PIR transaction does not affect its > long-standing commitment to the IETF. There is no negative change in > our support of and alignment with the IETF. In fact, ISOC and IETF > are totally aligned on the strategic importance of consensus-based > open Internet standards and the principles by which IETF operates -- > and will continue to stand by IETF to ensure their continued success. > > The only thing that changes here, for the Internet Society, is that we > switch one source of income for another, roughly equivalent income > stream. From the IETF's point of view this change should make no > difference. > > Best regards, > > A > > -- > Andrew Sullivan > President & CEO, Internet Society > sullivan@isoc.org > +1 416 731 1261 > > --000000000000f380650597ef541c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I c= ertainly hope the new income stream is not 'roughly equivalent'. Th= e PIR revenue has been good to date but there is no guarantee that it will = remain so in the future. Unless I am missing something, the business point = of the change was to diversify.

The other benefit to making the change in my view is to end the conf= lict of interest between specifying standards affecting the DNS and running= a DNS registry.

While th= is change may have consequences for PIR name holders, their interests are n= ot the ones that the ISOC trustees are primarily concerned with protecting.= =C2=A0

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 12:05 PM Andrew Sullivan <sullivan@isoc.org> wrote:
Dear colleagues,

I'm writing with my Internet Society President & CEO hat on.=C2=A0 = I've
heard some questions in the halls and so on about the proposed
transaction in respect of PIR, and I wanted to make something clear.

ISOC's recently announced PIR transaction does not affect its
long-standing commitment to the IETF.=C2=A0 There is no negative change in<= br> our support of and alignment with the IETF. In fact, ISOC and IETF
are totally aligned on the strategic importance of consensus-based
open Internet standards and the principles by which IETF operates --
and will continue to stand by IETF to ensure their continued success.

The only thing that changes here, for the Internet Society, is that we
switch one source of income for another, roughly equivalent income
stream.=C2=A0 From the IETF's point of view this change should make no<= br> difference.

Best regards,

A

--
Andrew Sullivan
President & CEO, Internet Society
sullivan@isoc.org
+1 416 731 1261

--000000000000f380650597ef541c-- From nobody Fri Nov 22 07:35:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62AA21200EC for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 07:35:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qIGTa71Gxy3j for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 07:35:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x633.google.com (mail-pl1-x633.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::633]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C8A2112004C for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 07:35:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x633.google.com with SMTP id d7so3256796pls.3 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 07:35:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=/Ywz88IG5sGqPGyOMO1s3gulN9cfudzHpGZJfWwuezs=; b=HJ1REjrEEd1ZsyeWOdKHuwgiZJ+Ns/dywBRKLapJkhhsUK/daRUplBnIKmA8Gzo1pa idJztX/FIfzbLEUl+3jJqJpbat85lqr4Omgan+ubuLTWkiYnISqiMD/HA44anRSH7ARV lBA7/fTWadKglYn5soUpKyBr8C0b13uCftaRrW6ylrAwYo+aZlL2W4fjeqwQs1QlztdA OLrguUvNSrlCNVs1BdEjSUeZm1XFnhkv4QqCW8phPJd6ald8qOEDdBywv8nhsJs5kJjj l5JW2LCCw01Yns5WEJq+SPBRvL5at20byXolbub4GTK8/Cq6tkpZnfBh3T9AFkiTDu4P bHWw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=/Ywz88IG5sGqPGyOMO1s3gulN9cfudzHpGZJfWwuezs=; b=BPrKVvvKgs95qTv/eExj9SSRsnSn1OGrUXn/ojHzf/pCbRQ8OOrted9IUlM8IGUlbS jw+PYR5ZZ28XTavZ5tSyCoHgGnyx/jC8F2dtnbM0VWPCzaL1iDpoyDvtXSoxfSGYFn5v lAZWqJptcBPwi6YUUm1jssv8+IIbKZ7XfgeaerSGYQ2R1yk6WXUZACwvsiC97FsBWm1V KMBpSai0PcmC0o9BN2f0gKLGi1ebwzWTilbRILVYc59EPUxnI55WJDmFvQFOYHyJIZZp HKB8X3is6bfshf+fSvcYobCm8VOlxNZVZa0981pkGjH4GFq4GgyaK+g3n/lrUoSEwUmx /PFg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUNM0BF4Vcfw2q5e6+1Gw3a4Bp5SGapvQzhfg76i4j+TTti7749 i9tyZtzLV4HtTDjm1N4ugdfOVz5n87Wo7w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzJYLy2IEUdSlqfZ7W6PqVlTS7NtPesMvMUVFi4R6T9K4ZgEHNE/vRZ0Zn+hg5HI1ckwvppEA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:be05:: with SMTP id a5mr240647pjs.73.1574436935691; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 07:35:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.88.15.208] ([103.137.210.171]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x3sm3511813pjq.10.2019.11.22.07.35.33 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 22 Nov 2019 07:35:34 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-843C53AC-B3D9-4906-B6B1-01AD83AC5113 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Leif Johansson Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: On IETF support (was Re: Important Announcement from the Internet Society and Public Interest Registry) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 23:35:31 +0800 Message-Id: References: Cc: Andrew Sullivan , "ietf@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: To: Phillip Hallam-Baker X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A878) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 15:35:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail-843C53AC-B3D9-4906-B6B1-01AD83AC5113 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone > 22 nov. 2019 kl. 21:25 skrev Phillip Hallam-Baker := >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > I certainly hope the new income stream is not 'roughly equivalent'. The PI= R revenue has been good to date but there is no guarantee that it will remai= n so in the future. Unless I am missing something, the business point of the= change was to diversify. I don=E2=80=99t think you are missing anything. >=20 > The other benefit to making the change in my view is to end the conflict o= f interest between specifying standards affecting the DNS and running a DNS r= egistry. >=20 > While this change may have consequences for PIR name holders, their intere= sts are not the ones that the ISOC trustees are primarily concerned with pro= tecting.=20 >=20 I=E2=80=99m not sure I see this last part tho... =20 Aren=E2=80=99t .org name holders as much Internet citizens as the rest of us= ? The stated goal of the ISOC is to be open, globally connected, secure and= trustworthy.=20 To be open means to be accessible for all. It doesn=E2=80=99t take a lot of i= magination to see a possible outcome where .org domain holders will be payin= g moar money. At some point economy becomes a discriminator.=20 This is why I was curious about how the ISOC mission and vision carries ove= r to the new owners (who I=E2=80=99m sure are super nice ppl!) I=E2=80=99ll shut up now :-) Leif >> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 12:05 PM Andrew Sullivan wrot= e: >> Dear colleagues, >>=20 >> I'm writing with my Internet Society President & CEO hat on. I've >> heard some questions in the halls and so on about the proposed >> transaction in respect of PIR, and I wanted to make something clear. >>=20 >> ISOC's recently announced PIR transaction does not affect its >> long-standing commitment to the IETF. There is no negative change in >> our support of and alignment with the IETF. In fact, ISOC and IETF >> are totally aligned on the strategic importance of consensus-based >> open Internet standards and the principles by which IETF operates -- >> and will continue to stand by IETF to ensure their continued success. >>=20 >> The only thing that changes here, for the Internet Society, is that we >> switch one source of income for another, roughly equivalent income >> stream. =46rom the IETF's point of view this change should make no >> difference. >>=20 >> Best regards, >>=20 >> A >>=20 >> --=20 >> Andrew Sullivan >> President & CEO, Internet Society >> sullivan@isoc.org >> +1 416 731 1261 >>=20 --Apple-Mail-843C53AC-B3D9-4906-B6B1-01AD83AC5113 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Skickat fr=C3=A5n m= in iPhone

22 nov. 2019 k= l. 21:25 skrev Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>:

=EF=BB=BF
I certainly= hope the new income stream is not 'roughly equivalent'. The PIR revenue has= been good to date but there is no guarantee that it will remain so in the f= uture. Unless I am missing something, the business point of the change was t= o diversify.

I don=E2=80=99= t think you are missing anything.


The o= ther benefit to making the change in my view is to end the conflict of inter= est between specifying standards affecting the DNS and running a DNS registr= y.

While this change may ha= ve consequences for PIR name holders, their interests are not the ones that t= he ISOC trustees are primarily concerned with protecting. 
<= br>





On Wed, Nov 20, 2= 019 at 12:05 PM Andrew Sullivan <sul= livan@isoc.org> wrote:
Dear colleagues,

I'm writing with my Internet Society President & CEO hat on.  I've<= br> heard some questions in the halls and so on about the proposed
transaction in respect of PIR, and I wanted to make something clear.

ISOC's recently announced PIR transaction does not affect its
long-standing commitment to the IETF.  There is no negative change in our support of and alignment with the IETF. In fact, ISOC and IETF
are totally aligned on the strategic importance of consensus-based
open Internet standards and the principles by which IETF operates --
and will continue to stand by IETF to ensure their continued success.

The only thing that changes here, for the Internet Society, is that we
switch one source of income for another, roughly equivalent income
stream.  =46rom the IETF's point of view this change should make no
= difference.

Best regards,

A

--
Andrew Sullivan
President & CEO, Internet Society
sullivan@isoc.org=
+1 416 731 1261

= --Apple-Mail-843C53AC-B3D9-4906-B6B1-01AD83AC5113-- From nobody Fri Nov 22 21:31:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE359120861 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 21:31:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ct9QzEUafoYr for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 21:31:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32c.google.com (mail-ot1-x32c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1AEF1200B2 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 21:31:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id m15so8124057otq.7 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 21:31:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wC/3jk6aI9A+op6dQ2BMAGcrrZ+f1mKpBtuVa7qaRmo=; b=UY9BENoYcXMTU+/HM2uAP7ww1HuKUcMnRhU1dyG19yQVnkuj/mfjXzBkj7nGzb/TPK cSP7BshIpl1JIVDlD/frs1YrzZPz+fBc8YDEW/+K4KwRxJM3Mw8nhXaoH/I2xEWUZz/R Mki4pT/bF7XTX1m/usc9t3ZtQBwbZJ55gDvLpWEQI8YV02LSyODsLZ/eJD50NZYSmnXT L5BN9ihT9Q3CiYENRgCeYuddbutwDQ5VXosMZ07l6qdOH0p/LYp4oILPKJsQhINgZLo0 bAoG2ksHrICOqVcv9pJpM0tuNr3rRHcFLSS5e0TdWitHQa5MGB+I3z3b/sNoid7SJCfA V18g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wC/3jk6aI9A+op6dQ2BMAGcrrZ+f1mKpBtuVa7qaRmo=; b=rIOKMITbb+6zfdlN00osx7sNtoPMX99/ALTQ2PtXdxuj7NCUbFQcpYaZbWaau9bROA q2BwKveZIV4VhLgFGT7f4aqYPRJ2vbNSYAuGzu67ldwB0czRvTdLTYRjldWI/Nex9/BD Q+v5hYU4rd5Cmyscm6iKQtOq4wvMBenXFA4VRlqpF4/YNiQUxSQ1+mcmaPy0kbHQah0U ThsP9YybIWz8dGIc2SDo580qkGieT0n1MGdt8i5CMBYt+Y4Y7fU9U6X5arA4ldRLs30W S0M8eXVJTkLa2kJ0z23pXpq4egdBAqZpEvDzgohEljVSTr+y0FQVdIE/Z0PKc8JAlUjY 1vMg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUY54SrDuF2a+j1FW3mAyprw4l/RS1bTBv9Sq4pHD06J9IwgjwN C4niG9/DYzhbRGJgCH/c2Zz1Gpc0HnerYiE+7NtqXC2nFLk5Nw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxMi8lrbzDjNp30PdR+QRpcy0eV3k0mMZmWHdWq+jL6fwXgd0mLsasEwNNq8P0Top0k211nwvNU+yHq/QxwVAE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:2335:: with SMTP id q21mr13056961otg.237.1574487078969; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 21:31:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Richard Barnes Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:31:04 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: On IETF support (was Re: Important Announcement from the Internet Society and Public Interest Registry) To: Leif Johansson Cc: Phillip Hallam-Baker , "ietf@ietf.org" , Andrew Sullivan Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000bb95c0597fcd7db" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 05:31:32 -0000 --0000000000000bb95c0597fcd7db Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 11:36 PM Leif Johansson wrote: > > > Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone > > 22 nov. 2019 kl. 21:25 skrev Phillip Hallam-Baker = : > > =EF=BB=BF > I certainly hope the new income stream is not 'roughly equivalent'. The > PIR revenue has been good to date but there is no guarantee that it will > remain so in the future. Unless I am missing something, the business poin= t > of the change was to diversify. > > > I don=E2=80=99t think you are missing anything. > > > The other benefit to making the change in my view is to end the conflict > of interest between specifying standards affecting the DNS and running a > DNS registry. > > While this change may have consequences for PIR name holders, their > interests are not the ones that the ISOC trustees are primarily concerned > with protecting. > > > I=E2=80=99m not sure I see this last part tho... > > Aren=E2=80=99t .org name holders as much Internet citizens as the rest of= us? The > stated goal of the ISOC is to be open, globally connected, secure and > trustworthy. > > To be open means to be accessible for all. It doesn=E2=80=99t take a lot = of > imagination to see a possible outcome where .org domain holders will be > paying moar money. At some point economy becomes a discriminator.. > > This is why I was curious about how the ISOC mission and vision carries > over to the new owners (who I=E2=80=99m sure are super nice ppl!) > Yes, .org name holders are part of the Internet community, but they're not the *only* part of the community. There are a bit over 10 million .org domains -- vs. billions of Internet users. The mission of the Internet Society is on that latter scale, and has a much broader and deeper impact on peoples' lives than simply leasing domain names. It's important to view this change in that context. In exchange for, I admit, some risk that .org prices might rise (though it's far from clear that this transaction changes that risk), we get a firmer foundation for the bigger, global mission of ISOC. --Richard > > I=E2=80=99ll shut up now :-) > Leif > > On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 12:05 PM Andrew Sullivan > wrote: > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> I'm writing with my Internet Society President & CEO hat on. I've >> heard some questions in the halls and so on about the proposed >> transaction in respect of PIR, and I wanted to make something clear. >> >> ISOC's recently announced PIR transaction does not affect its >> long-standing commitment to the IETF. There is no negative change in >> our support of and alignment with the IETF. In fact, ISOC and IETF >> are totally aligned on the strategic importance of consensus-based >> open Internet standards and the principles by which IETF operates -- >> and will continue to stand by IETF to ensure their continued success. >> >> The only thing that changes here, for the Internet Society, is that we >> switch one source of income for another, roughly equivalent income >> stream. From the IETF's point of view this change should make no >> difference. >> >> Best regards, >> >> A >> >> -- >> Andrew Sullivan >> President & CEO, Internet Society >> sullivan@isoc.org >> +1 416 731 1261 >> >> --0000000000000bb95c0597fcd7db Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 11:36 PM Leif= Johansson <leifj@mnt.se> wrote:<= br>


Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone

22 nov. 2019 kl. 21:25 skrev Phillip Halla= m-Baker <phil= l@hallambaker.com>:

=EF=BB=BF
I certainly hope the new income stream is not 'roughly equivalent= 9;. The PIR revenue has been good to date but there is no guarantee that it= will remain so in the future. Unless I am missing something, the business = point of the change was to diversify.
I don=E2=80=99t think you are missing anything.


The other benefit to ma= king the change in my view is to end the conflict of interest between speci= fying standards affecting the DNS and running a DNS registry.

While this = change may have consequences for PIR name holders, their interests are not = the ones that the ISOC trustees are primarily concerned with protecting.=C2= =A0


I=E2=80=99m not s= ure I see this last part tho...
=C2=A0
Aren=E2=80=99t .= org name holders as much Internet citizens as the rest of us?=C2=A0 The sta= ted goal of the ISOC is to be open, globally connected, secure and trustwor= thy.=C2=A0

To be open means to be accessible for a= ll. It doesn=E2=80=99t take a lot of imagination to see a possible outcome = where .org domain holders will be paying moar money. At some point economy = becomes a discriminator..=C2=A0

This =C2=A0is why = I was curious about how the ISOC mission and vision carries over to the new= owners (who I=E2=80=99m sure are super nice ppl!)
=

Yes, .org name holders are part of the Internet communi= ty, but they're not the *only* part of the community.=C2=A0 There are a= bit over 10 million .org domains -- vs. billions of Internet users.=C2=A0 = The mission of the Internet Society is on that latter scale, and has a much= broader and deeper impact on peoples' lives than simply leasing domain= names.

It's important to view this change= in that context.=C2=A0 In exchange for, I admit, some risk that .org price= s might rise (though it's far from clear that this transaction changes = that risk), we get a firmer foundation for the bigger, global mission of IS= OC.

--Richard
=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99ll shut up now :-)
Leif

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 12:05 PM Andrew Sullivan <sullivan@isoc.org>= ; wrote:
Dear co= lleagues,

I'm writing with my Internet Society President & CEO hat on.=C2=A0 = I've
heard some questions in the halls and so on about the proposed
transaction in respect of PIR, and I wanted to make something clear.

ISOC's recently announced PIR transaction does not affect its
long-standing commitment to the IETF.=C2=A0 There is no negative change in<= br> our support of and alignment with the IETF. In fact, ISOC and IETF
are totally aligned on the strategic importance of consensus-based
open Internet standards and the principles by which IETF operates --
and will continue to stand by IETF to ensure their continued success.

The only thing that changes here, for the Internet Society, is that we
switch one source of income for another, roughly equivalent income
stream.=C2=A0 From the IETF's point of view this change should make no<= br> difference.

Best regards,

A

--
Andrew Sullivan
President & CEO, Internet Society
sullivan@isoc.org
+1 416 731 1261

--0000000000000bb95c0597fcd7db-- From nobody Fri Nov 22 23:22:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 299C31208FD for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 23:22:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NIvIMKuZRsXg for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 23:22:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x12b.google.com (mail-il1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 722E11200FB for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 23:22:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id z12so80467iln.11 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 23:22:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=G6dEzTmzG8lxEn3Ov8s0KbPlgGuZw4ts0tpxCayqhSs=; b=sd6rc/SiigOpsqy3TFDavVXRLkP2AWlwTR6k+cLMVxQIlHDZxcBW2auZuAnqGuy9vW Qo33+MsuljfczVLm3a1NtfQcBIbv+Dg3S9st5MLJ8D8lECCURMHoMYiLkfAVVmqRrV59 qvC4P2cWqoEUbmKh4NK4hW/FIyOwJyQt8M+GAxP5hwmrZD0332feyzbM3TLmZUTTHnSf GMws0TEhcxSMLeg44w3ghi71A+St5pqpgbtSAEgZ1n8UroxpbEfaW42AS7TGw89bBuTA 7ZjXRSGcGrGvFQiNwRhkpBaFqqYwYlRhKEd02RfsifRu0reSpxH2jQOzAPHQqhtPkEHW 4FoA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=G6dEzTmzG8lxEn3Ov8s0KbPlgGuZw4ts0tpxCayqhSs=; b=f+TL7Vrs8tsLiAgz25em/HvTs091YA1geuDmvKxwqOBrWDZCn66j0Gx6Lfdb/CL7M+ sX1XzyatoliMTMLMI0mdSVP656/Z9hJew586JWCzwhzcw4kPnx5N6YMcCOO/I9EtbeSf Tf6r/etjdpWFiP2IF38nHFtnTc3ml1of5z+/r6+nFot91+iz9mMh8/CNVr8kdT2mdRpX jHGZ5WWCm7T8ONZ63iuoWRdE2NXRjAwWGVJBQt70LZXTgpcza8DdQQsYGKUO1zsuS4Bn Bxy+Cyxfb5mUgrBZKlVTX88YJldlgUSgGwCOetSNbpkikX6WCJeLjTA2LAr9tyvhjTaD eqJg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVAtLleZRd+MbBR+teDZcu1YzQOhFRJJV2f1GYka4wrP8N4m1co Kyc6gFMfBGJgieEebnBEU4AWQlqJlxJ2V88BMZ8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzYauz17UlFZL0W67Kv77RGCHz23pmbJuW4kk6O6HJD9NtJAj9X/xTJvX6vaLHOKBY0tgVaaN0WIGx6Epm0XfQ= X-Received: by 2002:a92:8388:: with SMTP id p8mr22219351ilk.49.1574493754337; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 23:22:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 23:22:21 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: On IETF support (was Re: Important Announcement from the Internet Society and Public Interest Registry) To: Richard Barnes Cc: Leif Johansson , Phillip Hallam-Baker , "ietf@ietf.org" , Andrew Sullivan Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000edb3170597fe646c" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 07:22:37 -0000 --000000000000edb3170597fe646c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 9:31 PM Richard Barnes wrote: > > Yes, .org name holders are part of the Internet community, but they're not > the *only* part of the community. There are a bit over 10 million .org > domains -- vs. billions of Internet users. The mission of the Internet > Society is on that latter scale, and has a much broader and deeper impact > on peoples' lives than simply leasing domain names. > > It's important to view this change in that context. In exchange for, I > admit, some risk that .org prices might rise (though it's far from clear > that this transaction changes that risk), we get a firmer foundation for > the bigger, global mission of ISOC. > Hi, As I understand it, the issue not only that it was sold, but also who the buyer was. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/11/20/org_registry_sale_shambles/ I'm not sure if that article is telling the whole story, but I also haven't seen any clear rebuttals. thanks, Rob --000000000000edb3170597fe646c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 9:31 PM Richard B= arnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:

Yes, .org name holders are part of the Inte= rnet community, but they're not the *only* part of the community.=C2=A0= There are a bit over 10 million .org domains -- vs. billions of Internet u= sers.=C2=A0 The mission of the Internet Society is on that latter scale, an= d has a much broader and deeper impact on peoples' lives than simply le= asing domain names.

It's important to view= this change in that context.=C2=A0 In exchange for, I admit, some risk tha= t .org prices might rise (though it's far from clear that this transact= ion changes that risk), we get a firmer foundation for the bigger, global m= ission of ISOC.

Hi,
=

As I understand it, the issue not only that it was sold= , but also who the buyer was.

I'm not sure if that article is telling the whole=C2=A0sto= ry, but I also haven't seen any clear rebuttals.

thanks,
Rob

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I have been cheerfully active on ISOC chapter and policy lists trying to answer questions people have. I don't think it would be ok for the Internet Society to use this list as a channel for those discussions, though if the moderators have a different opinion I'm happy to answer questions here too. Best regards, A --=20 Andrew Sullivan President & CEO, Internet Society sullivan@isoc.org +1 416 731 1261 From nobody Sat Nov 23 00:06:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A69641208FD for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2019 00:06:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rc86KKY7GOyI for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2019 00:06:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 337B712006F for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2019 00:06:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id s5so9579595iln.4 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2019 00:06:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=H0nBWmLlNpwRWWteKkPGIG/XQpbYR/iqK5EkVGaxLGU=; b=nQ4HwV39sBGWB66ltTScg+/82fyn5JT7D7IalQ5aUFhc50mzCVpEJgFz2/oNWfWJQo nBme/b/Ld3ToLFVaPQfpz/kb6Uv61OBYCO9XsDbjnsfKHVdHWm6/ieSngODA3nRWW98l sfy1aKZU7dZi3dShRiBVwvhoI5bsxPy2JVsNF9BoAqiS/nygJRtRJgyTJi3+c/rx6y2W dgLM6gO+CHuagRfUSPTKxfBe4t4USXeW61WkGjLezxIz8s9da5/ODYtPYx/FHLH2gE2g zkwyya36bXQ/JSA4DZXmXK+qBDCP83KiLzH5hZpdRdL+crPx/b90cxal/bq9W22aZY8d wIRw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=H0nBWmLlNpwRWWteKkPGIG/XQpbYR/iqK5EkVGaxLGU=; b=MeYepttoVuXA5FoAn+E39n5s2UXqZ0fr/ZE67e42Hh4px+XXKvL9av3QSwOLixI3k5 7tLWuW6zMdoIGs3ImeB9adBcbGtNoUBVndHV8YEFEjGP0MZxJLs7agFWWcS+AkEyxEM/ w5USJycmyxips4EctHUEy/fV+O8tR6LUvuAl1EOtNGCC9gM9BzsO3tlD5Kls/cT0Y9J3 R9O2riwMFXy8sZ71RmHwmQiIkiSPnF9IOTnrW1LecMk7gbRJOQa2s5XshyKRs7ztyqRG tnQFS9x7UdB0ToF3v7KAi/iUgHVmIL1vGjIdJ01vVfSmTJoRAg6sgzkRyHZxyZGvlS4T yfnA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXt5Pm8P6MfI02wTncmH2QMlGwvPjuA2KC2r4iabpW/e7ZhjxIq mjxk7iDOx6RNi5g0Fn2t2ddEIHV77lbFT8soJrI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxwfPhVxHVts2vG8+9wphuqWmPhNeCzOOuiaFKIMS8p7iB+x7tOeJH/e4diC8P9PsVqacig6g2k4Q5u90f0Jyk= X-Received: by 2002:a92:770d:: with SMTP id s13mr538589ilc.257.1574496365343; Sat, 23 Nov 2019 00:06:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191123073904.j6xnw5bqcnhz7vhg@outlook.office365.com> In-Reply-To: <20191123073904.j6xnw5bqcnhz7vhg@outlook.office365.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 00:05:52 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: On IETF support (was Re: Important Announcement from the Internet Society and Public Interest Registry) To: Andrew Sullivan Cc: "ietf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008e7b980597ff00ff" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 08:06:08 -0000 --0000000000008e7b980597ff00ff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 11:39 PM Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Hi, > > On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 11:22:21PM -0800, Rob Sayre wrote: > > I'm not sure if that article is telling the whole story, but I also > haven't > > seen any clear rebuttals. > > I have been cheerfully active on ISOC chapter and policy lists trying > to answer questions people have. I don't think it would be ok for the > Internet Society to use this list as a channel for those discussions, > though if the moderators have a different opinion I'm happy to answer > questions here too. > Hello Andrew, There have been a few follow-up questions to your post on this list prior to mine. I'm sorry if I've used the wrong venue. The linked article raised some fair concerns in my opinion. However, like most news media, it can be prone to sensationalism. So, I wanted to know more. If you could link what you consider the right "ISOC chapter and policy lists", that would be greatly appreciated. I'm only using quotes here because I don't know what those lists are. thanks, Rob --0000000000008e7b980597ff00ff Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 11:39 PM Andr= ew Sullivan <sullivan@isoc.org&= gt; wrote:
Hi,
On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 11:22:21PM -0800, Rob Sayre wrote:
> I'm not sure if that article is telling the whole story, but I als= o haven't
> seen any clear rebuttals.

I have been cheerfully active on ISOC chapter and policy lists trying
to answer questions people have.=C2=A0 I don't think it would be ok for= the
Internet Society to use this list as a channel for those discussions,
though if the moderators have a different opinion I'm happy to answer questions here too.

Hello Andrew,
=

There have been a few follow-up questions to your post = on this list prior to mine. I'm sorry if I've used the wrong venue.=

The linked article raised some fair concerns in m= y opinion. However, like most news media, it can be prone to sensationalism= . So, I wanted to know more. If you could link what you consider the right = "ISOC chapter and policy lists", that=C2=A0would be greatly appre= ciated. I'm only using quotes here because I don't know what those = lists are.

thanks,
Rob

=C2=A0
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On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 12:05:52AM -0800, Rob Sayre wrote: > There have been a few follow-up questions to your post on this list prior > to mine. I'm sorry if I've used the wrong venue. No apology needed, but I think when I posted before I was trying not to bring that topic onto this list -- it's not really the IETF's problem and I don't want to make one here. Again, if instructed by moderators I'll change that view. In the meantime I'll answer this question off-list. Best regards, A --=20 Andrew Sullivan President & CEO, Internet Society sullivan@isoc.org +1 416 731 1261 From nobody Sun Nov 24 05:43:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E04F9120137; Sun, 24 Nov 2019 05:43:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2VOhNReJwsY4; Sun, 24 Nov 2019 05:43:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from bgl-iport-3.cisco.com (bgl-iport-3.cisco.com [72.163.197.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0ACF51200C5; Sun, 24 Nov 2019 05:43:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1808; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1574603022; x=1575812622; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tnE/3fidoJMgBJz7EciYR7cz8gy0mPvzc11BTht30PM=; b=GTD+fone71H9QWw4CxKpKi3GHhaLYnWI8GhIKK+zL2ATJN9g55Fgodge nSMPddoy6KPpszgEJxzAp2q9VC76OEN/yj4H5KNIl2sS9tO+/jwi2c7vn uVz/YMEixnAPe3rq78YdAI8NnQlapvISDf81IaBFVELrf3v4SUvuZAtWD 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CPAAAeJdpd/xjFo0hlGgEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QMBAQEBEQEBAQICAQEBAYF+gwxVIBIqhCqJA4gTiVuRUgkBAQEMAQEjDAEBgUy?= =?us-ascii?q?CdAKCTjgTAhABAQQBAQECAQUEbYULByUMhVMBBSMVQRALGAICJgICITYGAQwGA?= =?us-ascii?q?gEBgx4BgkYDLg+rHRo1dYEyhU+CUQ1jgUIGgQ4ojDCBQD+BESeCbD6CG4U+gl4?= =?us-ascii?q?EjUiJGUWWS0GCNZE8hBIGG4I/jAEnizWOSIFCiQyGFIkuAhEVgWkigVgzGggbF?= =?us-ascii?q?YMnUBEUgWSNa4VMNAMwAY8QAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.69,237,1571702400"; d="scan'208";a="100168180" Received: from vla196-nat.cisco.com (HELO bgl-core-4.cisco.com) ([72.163.197.24]) by bgl-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 24 Nov 2019 13:43:39 +0000 Received: from [10.68.217.24] ([10.68.217.24]) (authenticated bits=0) by bgl-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id xAODhZ6C008136 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 24 Nov 2019 13:43:38 GMT Subject: Re: Yang update from IESG ? To: Michael Richardson , Ladislav Lhotka Cc: "iesg@ietf.org" , IETF Rinse Repeat , Dave Thaler References: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01E70B0061@marchand> <10541.1574083581@dooku.sandelman.ca> <7631.1574141192@dooku.sandelman.ca> <3da578887bfd0db091afc71fbe75c7abc66f157f.camel@nic.cz> <7882.1574153435@dooku.sandelman.ca> From: Benoit Claise Message-ID: Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 21:43:35 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7882.1574153435@dooku.sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Authenticated-User: bclaise X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.68.217.24, [10.68.217.24] X-Outbound-Node: bgl-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 13:43:45 -0000 Maybe this is already solved during the IETF week. If not, read my answer below .. > Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > On Tue, 2019-11-19 at 13:26 +0800, Michael Richardson wrote: > >> Tim Wicinski wrote: >> IANA has been doing it for > >> more than five years for a couple of YANG >> modules (six by now), and > >> I am not aware of any troubles so far. > >> > >> > But that's work put onto the IANA pile, and some I* organization may > >> > want to understand the commitment. > >> > >> And, I don't understand how the products get updated. Are they going > >> to pull YANG modules from IANA? How often: hourly? daily? yearly? > > > Products get updated ad hoc, as soon as their implementors feel the > > need. This usually has to be accompanied with changes in the underlying > > system - actually implementing support for new registry entries etc. > > So if software (including management software) needs explicit support for new > IANA entries (in for instance, lists of ciphers), then why is it better for > the (human) programmer to download a new YANG module than to just read the IANA web > pages (or .XML equivalent)? The point is that you download the IANA-maintained YANG modules on regular basis (ex: typical interface types) for the management software that speaks YANG. A cronjob does the job. Since the new YANG module is backward compatible, the software works automatically (for the new interface type) with the new YANG module. Exactly like the IfType defintions for MIB modules (see https://www.iana.org/assignments/smi-numbers/smi-numbers.xhtml). Regards, B. > > (It's not like the YANG description will have executable code for SHA4 or something) > From nobody Sun Nov 24 07:36:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73AAF120043 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2019 07:36:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K2VzA63ZHaDm for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2019 07:36:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com (mail-lf1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C592B1200C5 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2019 07:36:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id l28so9038532lfj.1 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2019 07:36:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:date:message-id:subject :in-reply-to:references:to:cc; bh=UpfEtTxzEgfP0PS4wgMA7Uv5ee3XMSusnJ13djRMkz4=; b=EzKGtzXnWrcEPl+LLWFSM83ZEnyoNcn56rN6+N+F8B1rtdYMyMOp7nFnny/VwoiW2W 3nWXMKIDMZDd/1uYICA7BxegipNXwhubSskkmfOScyEmnjiNSzrsZo6xIP0VWev18nuh ylV5i8wZJvvqMeIM1bXQs40zH7ZFcTRj4B8y+5q0XS/IelzHPJlBDuhWZPzJX0Z4f2l5 4Tj4VU2OhLdaP6cZfkc4v+R1vGMAW8GHUNGx1zUoh9uGdnRx1fJqDoFu5T7iUv0Xw3qd 7nD+FvlYHLe3knLuIlYtwW4S7oxAaCj79adbGOtX20YRVF9jUcVLwQGX0TQFtBYeM7IV symw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:in-reply-to:references:to:cc; bh=UpfEtTxzEgfP0PS4wgMA7Uv5ee3XMSusnJ13djRMkz4=; b=seYSPxIa7h74cKYmd6GLzE21Xz23gQ5ou5wTnkLrRLB/U4NHkZvA8g0A8MLlKZTCP0 vqcn+RXhnx2SUE7Y1Q3cIBsUYwV3PIhxbzIGfCchS6cRpkHiPJOoSsktD7Bz1eQdKXb1 tMXaNcKK0BhK7YBLaac6bK8t1Ib3RyKziGYKQB7FXhh+AgFNN5+LzYw7kTe/z1hn49x+ SQPaJHWh4JSlB7A2yw22NEOriCIXzDNU88yAgTx/4DSb5hgATWPP1Sv0R4lQt5WtiD64 yVL+Hhhqp5f8kRyEHXdMC8Up3RfJS+vdEkesp88dwCv7RwV55RjEZTUAFqTxSMOaezRf oWpw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWTaZ8g4mLB16CqFgV86e99StrYXHtFYgeNtDIpezQIkvvWRFFC /YNm6LAF2593tuowGlBYLDYBNA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzOBEwr0YYKmFvHg1wAF3q9GxN774clqcqAbTo6sTow8KooBen7xmp7PpfvHZwJUzx4Rjhi/g== X-Received: by 2002:a19:5509:: with SMTP id n9mr17292169lfe.27.1574609782600; Sun, 24 Nov 2019 07:36:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.192] (h-158-174-187-18.NA.cust.bahnhof.se. [158.174.187.18]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u4sm2387432ljj.87.2019.11.24.07.36.21 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 24 Nov 2019 07:36:21 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-59C3DB1B-8563-45C8-AE77-13B2F2E40470 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Leif Johansson Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 16:36:20 +0100 Message-Id: <0192E502-0056-4370-8839-D0628D340867@mnt.se> Subject: Re: On IETF support (was Re: Important Announcement from the Internet Society and Public Interest Registry) In-Reply-To: References: To: Richard Barnes Cc: Phillip Hallam-Baker , "ietf@ietf.org" , Andrew Sullivan X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A878) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 15:36:28 -0000 --Apple-Mail-59C3DB1B-8563-45C8-AE77-13B2F2E40470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone >> 23 nov. 2019 kl. 06:36 skrev Richard Barnes : > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >=20 >>> On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 11:36 PM Leif Johansson wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone >>=20 >>>> 22 nov. 2019 kl. 21:25 skrev Phillip Hallam-Baker : >>> =EF=BB=BF >>> I certainly hope the new income stream is not 'roughly equivalent'. The P= IR revenue has been good to date but there is no guarantee that it will rema= in so in the future. Unless I am missing something, the business point of th= e change was to diversify. >>=20 >> I don=E2=80=99t think you are missing anything. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> The other benefit to making the change in my view is to end the conflict= of interest between specifying standards affecting the DNS and running a DN= S registry. >>>=20 >>> While this change may have consequences for PIR name holders, their inte= rests are not the ones that the ISOC trustees are primarily concerned with p= rotecting.=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99m not sure I see this last part tho... >> =20 >> Aren=E2=80=99t .org name holders as much Internet citizens as the rest of= us? The stated goal of the ISOC is to be open, globally connected, secure a= nd trustworthy.=20 >>=20 >> To be open means to be accessible for all. It doesn=E2=80=99t take a lot o= f imagination to see a possible outcome where .org domain holders will be pa= ying moar money. At some point economy becomes a discriminator..=20 >>=20 >> This is why I was curious about how the ISOC mission and vision carries o= ver to the new owners (who I=E2=80=99m sure are super nice ppl!) >=20 > Yes, .org name holders are part of the Internet community, but they're not= the *only* part of the community. There are a bit over 10 million .org dom= ains -- vs. billions of Internet users. The mission of the Internet Society= is on that latter scale, and has a much broader and deeper impact on people= s' lives than simply leasing domain names. >=20 > It's important to view this change in that context. In exchange for, I ad= mit, some risk that .org prices might rise (though it's far from clear that t= his transaction changes that risk), we get a firmer foundation for the bigge= r, global mission of ISOC. >=20 > --Richard Ok so I couldn=E2=80=99t let it go just yet ;-) Yours is a perfectly rational argument if you think of the domain fee as a t= ax (which it sorta is).=20 In exchange for a moderate increase in taxation we will be able to pay for t= he common good. Excellent! A compelling argument was even made to me that a moderate increase might eve= n have the effect to push back on domain tasters! I=E2=80=99m Swedish and 20= 0% down with playing taxation games for the greater good (google Systembolag= et for a fun parallel). However - and I can=E2=80=99t believe I get to bring up 8th grade social stu= dies on the IETF list twice in a matter of months - No taxation without rep= resentation :-) This deal for all its economic benefits, is essentially outsourcing taxation= which is why I asked if representation came with the deal or not. Btw the lists where this is apparently supposed to be discussed are closed a= faict. Cheers Leif > =20 >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99ll shut up now :-) >> Leif >>=20 >>>>> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 12:05 PM Andrew Sullivan w= rote: >>>> Dear colleagues, >>>>=20 >>>> I'm writing with my Internet Society President & CEO hat on. I've >>>> heard some questions in the halls and so on about the proposed >>>> transaction in respect of PIR, and I wanted to make something clear. >>>>=20 >>>> ISOC's recently announced PIR transaction does not affect its >>>> long-standing commitment to the IETF. There is no negative change in >>>> our support of and alignment with the IETF. In fact, ISOC and IETF >>>> are totally aligned on the strategic importance of consensus-based >>>> open Internet standards and the principles by which IETF operates -- >>>> and will continue to stand by IETF to ensure their continued success. >>>>=20 >>>> The only thing that changes here, for the Internet Society, is that we >>>> switch one source of income for another, roughly equivalent income >>>> stream. =46rom the IETF's point of view this change should make no >>>> difference. >>>>=20 >>>> Best regards, >>>>=20 >>>> A >>>>=20 >>>> --=20 >>>> Andrew Sullivan >>>> President & CEO, Internet Society >>>> sullivan@isoc.org >>>> +1 416 731 1261 --Apple-Mail-59C3DB1B-8563-45C8-AE77-13B2F2E40470 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


S= kickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone

23 nov. 2019 kl. 06:36 skrev Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>:

<= /blockquote>
=EF=BB=BF


On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 11:36 PM Leif Johanss= on <leifj@mnt.se> wrote:
=


<= div dir=3D"ltr">Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone

22 nov. 2019 kl. 21:25 skrev Phillip Hallam-Baker <<= a href=3D"mailto:phill@hallambaker.com" target=3D"_blank">phill@hallambaker.= com>:

=EF=BB=BF
I certainly h= ope the new income stream is not 'roughly equivalent'. The PIR revenue has b= een good to date but there is no guarantee that it will remain so in the fut= ure. Unless I am missing something, the business point of the change was to d= iversify.

I don=E2=80=99t t= hink you are missing anything.


The other benefit to making the change in my view is to en= d the conflict of interest between specifying standards affecting the DNS an= d running a DNS registry.

While this change may have consequences for PIR n= ame holders, their interests are not the ones that the ISOC trustees are pri= marily concerned with protecting. 


I=E2=80=99m not sure I see this last part tho...
 
Aren=E2=80=99t .org name holders as much Internet citizens= as the rest of us?  The stated goal of the ISOC is to be open, globall= y connected, secure and trustworthy. 

To be op= en means to be accessible for all. It doesn=E2=80=99t take a lot of imaginat= ion to see a possible outcome where .org domain holders will be paying moar m= oney. At some point economy becomes a discriminator.. 

This  is why I was curious about how the ISOC mission and visi= on carries over to the new owners (who I=E2=80=99m sure are super nice ppl!)=

Yes, .org name holders are part= of the Internet community, but they're not the *only* part of the community= .  There are a bit over 10 million .org domains -- vs. billions of Inte= rnet users.  The mission of the Internet Society is on that latter scal= e, and has a much broader and deeper impact on peoples' lives than simply le= asing domain names.

It's important to view this= change in that context.  In exchange for, I admit, some risk that .org= prices might rise (though it's far from clear that this transaction changes= that risk), we get a firmer foundation for the bigger, global mission of IS= OC.

--Richard

Ok so I couldn=E2=80=99t let it go just yet ;-)

Yours is a perfectly rational argument if you think o= f the domain fee as a tax (which it sorta is). 

In exchange for a moderate increase in taxation we will be able to pay for= the common good. Excellent!

A compelling argument w= as even made to me that a moderate increase might even have the effect to pu= sh back on domain tasters! I=E2=80=99m Swedish and 200% down with playing ta= xation games for the greater good (google Systembolaget for a fun parallel).=

However - and I can=E2=80=99t believe I get to bri= ng up 8th grade social studies on the IETF list twice in a matter of months -= No taxation without  representation :-)

This d= eal for all its economic benefits, is essentially outsourcing taxation which= is why I asked if representation came with the deal or not.

<= /div>
Btw the lists where this is apparently supposed to be discussed ar= e closed afaict.

Cheers Leif



 

I=E2=80=99ll shut up= now :-)
Leif

=
On Wed, Nov= 20, 2019 at 12:05 PM Andrew Sullivan <sullivan@isoc.org> wrote:
Dear colleagues,

I'm writing with my Internet Society President & CEO hat on.  I've<= br> heard some questions in the halls and so on about the proposed
transaction in respect of PIR, and I wanted to make something clear.

ISOC's recently announced PIR transaction does not affect its
long-standing commitment to the IETF.  There is no negative change in our support of and alignment with the IETF. In fact, ISOC and IETF
are totally aligned on the strategic importance of consensus-based
open Internet standards and the principles by which IETF operates --
and will continue to stand by IETF to ensure their continued success.

The only thing that changes here, for the Internet Society, is that we
switch one source of income for another, roughly equivalent income
stream.  =46rom the IETF's point of view this change should make no
= difference.

Best regards,

A

--
Andrew Sullivan
President & CEO, Internet Society
sullivan@isoc.org=
+1 416 731 1261

= --Apple-Mail-59C3DB1B-8563-45C8-AE77-13B2F2E40470-- From nobody Mon Nov 25 09:29:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4189C12080A; Sun, 24 Nov 2019 22:46:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_SUMOF=5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vy8MPJH1BAfw; Sun, 24 Nov 2019 22:46:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C8CB1207FE; Sun, 24 Nov 2019 22:46:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id xAP6k6eu021548 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 25 Nov 2019 01:46:08 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 22:46:06 -0800 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: victor.demjanenko@vocal.com Cc: "'Barry Leiba'" , "'Roni Even (A)'" , "'The IESG'" , "'Catherine Meadows'" , "'IETF SecDir'" , draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis@ietf.org, "'Ali Begen'" , avtcore-chairs@ietf.org, avt@ietf.org, "'Dave Satterlee (Vocal)'" , "'IETF discussion list'" , draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis.all@ietf.org Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Message-ID: <20191125064606.GL32847@mit.edu> References: <157007038502.8860.1558861534319247512.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <001601d57af9$405efcf0$c11cf6d0$@vocal.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD23D79BC0@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <034a01d58a73$f4d3a1c0$de7ae540$@vocal.com> <037e01d58a92$72287510$56795f30$@vocal.com> <20191101001153.GQ88302@kduck.mit.edu> <06e101d59f15$ee937b30$cbba7190$@vocal.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <06e101d59f15$ee937b30$cbba7190$@vocal.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 09:29:49 -0800 X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 06:46:32 -0000 Hi Victor, On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 03:14:21PM -0500, victor.demjanenko@vocal.com wrote: > Hi Ben, > > Sorry I overlooked sending you a response. I would like to address the two > concerns you have by explaining what the speech coders are doing. Thanks for the extra clarifications. To supply one of my own: I'm not concerned that the protocol doesn't work as implemented, but just want to make sure that the document includes enough information to admit new implementations without guesswork. That is to say, "either tell me how to do it or tell me where to look that tells me how to do it". > WRT to 600 bps MELP, there is one TSVCIS mode that uses one bit beyond the > 54-bit frame for MELP 600 as a frame sync which alternates between frames. > With two or more MELP 600bps frames in one RTP packet, if any frame > indicates 600 bps by CODA being 0 and CODB being 1, then we know the stream > is 600bps. If there is a single frame in an RTP packet, you can still > deduce this by looking at every other RTP packet (every other MELP 600bps > frame) and by the timestamp advance. Most likely the two ends would > negotiate 600 bps in SDP anyways so there really should not be a problem. I > know it's not pretty but its workable. I hope this explanation helps you > with the concerns for this issue. In this case, the use as an "end-to-end framing bit" (i.e., the alternating behavior you describe above) is not explicitly stated; one might imagine a scheme where the framing usage is to have the bit cycle through 1, 1, 0, and 0, or some other scheme. I'd suggest to note in the document that if any instance of (CODA, CODB) == (0, 1) is observed, then the 600bps mode is in use. It might also be helpful to include the observation that two successive MELPe payloads with CODA == CODB == 0 indicates the 2400bps mode (and that seeing them in a single RTP packet is decisive, whereas additional information about packet non-loss would be needed in the one-MELPe-frame-per-RTP-packet case), but that would be a fair bit of additional text and might be diminishing returns. (Or, of course, the use of CODB as an alternating 1/0 bit as the framing usage could be documented instead.) > As for the TSVCIS parameter packing/unpacking, this is really simple. There > is exactly on three bit parameter, exactly one five bit parameter and a > variable number of eight bit parameters. In our view, the speech coder > itself (or a wrapper for it) is responsible for preparing the block of > octets. RTP then just transports it. On receive, the complementary wrapper > reverses the packing operation. I hope this clarifies and explains the > simplicity. That's exactly what I expected to happen; however, it's not what I believe the current text of the document is describing. Specifically, I think that the current text implies that the "preparing the block of octets" and "complementary wrapper reverses the packing operation" are supposed to be part of the RTP payload format that this document describes, but this document does not have enough information to actually perform those operations reversibly. If the packing is to be done in the speech coder, then this document doesn't need to talk about the packing at all (e.g., at the end of Section 2); if we need to keep the packing/wrapper in this document then we need to indicate that there's a defined priority order for the (8-octet) TSVCIS parameters in the TSVCIS references, to allow the packing/unpacking to be deterministic. Thanks, Ben > > -----Original Message----- > From: Benjamin Kaduk > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 8:12 PM > To: Barry Leiba > Cc: victor.demjanenko@vocal.com; Roni Even (A) ; The > IESG ; Catherine Meadows ; > IETF SecDir ; draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis@ietf.org; Ali Begen > ; avtcore-chairs@ietf.org; avt@ietf.org; Dave > Satterlee (Vocal) ; IETF discussion list > ; draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis.all@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: (with > DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > I don't think so, unfortunately. > > I do see the clarification about CODB's potential for deviation from Table > 1, that only the 600 bps MELPe is allowed to deviate, and that CODA gets us > to "it's one of 2400 or 600 bps" and the RTP timestamp disambiguates that > 600 bps is in use. But, it seems that this means that the recipient in > general should not rely on CODB to differentiate 600 from 2400 bps, and > instead is more robustly implemented by *always* using the RTP timestamp to > detect 600 bps, since that will always work and CODB will sometimes not work > under conditions not fully specified here. So, if we are unwilling or > unable to clarify what those conditions are (e.g., whether at a minimum > mutual agreement is required), then I think we need to describe this > procedure of consulting the RTP timestamp as the default behavior and avoid > giving the impression that CODB should be used to do so. > > Additionally, I don't see anything to address my concern about TSVCIS > parameter decoding. To be clear, the procedure I see this document > describing is that: > - TSVCIS gives parameters (and their lengths in bits) to the codec > described in this document > - this document specifies how to densely encode those parameters into a > byetstream > - RTP transmits that encoded bytestream to the peer > - the codec specified by this is responsible for turning that encoded > bystream back into a list of TSVCIS parameters (and their length in bits) > > I don't see how that last step is attainable with only the information > provided by this document. I *assume* that one of the TSVCIS specifications > has a canonical (ordered) listing of parameters, and that the list of > parmeters given to this codec in the first step will always be an initial > prefix of that list, but that's just me guessing at how to make sense of the > stated procedure given insufficient information. I don't think it's > appropriate to make the reader of an RFC guess at what to do; we need to > either say how to do it or give a pointer to an external reference that > does. > > -Ben > > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 02:26:09PM -0400, Barry Leiba wrote: > > Ben, does the -04 version address everything? > > > > Barry > > > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 1:42 PM wrote: > > > > > > I forgot to address security comments in one email. The changes are: > > > > > > Section 8, second paragraph - Suggested edit by reviewer > > > > > > (was) > > > This RTP payload format and the TSVCIS decoder do not exhibit any > > > significant non-uniformity in the receiver-side computational > > > complexity for packet processing and thus are unlikely to pose a > > > denial-of-service threat due to the receipt of pathological data. > > > Additionally, the RTP payload format does not contain any active > > > content. > > > > > > (now) > > > This RTP payload format and the TSVCIS decoder, to the best of our > > > knowledge, do not exhibit any significant non-uniformity in the > > > receiver-side computational complexity for packet processing and thus > > > are unlikely to pose a denial-of-service threat due to the receipt of > > > pathological data. Additionally, the RTP payload format does not > > > contain any active content. > > > > > > > > > Section 8, third paragraph - Suggested edit by reviewer > > > > > > (was) > > > Please see the security considerations discussed in [RFC6562] > > > regarding VAD and its effect on bitrates. > > > > > > (now) > > > Please see the security considerations discussed in [RFC6562] > > > regarding Voice Activity Detect (VAD) and its effect on bitrates. > > > > > > Victor > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: victor.demjanenko@vocal.com > > > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2019 10:05 AM > > > To: 'Roni Even (A)' ; 'Benjamin Kaduk' > > > ; 'The IESG' > > > Cc: draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis@ietf.org; 'Ali Begen' > > > ; avtcore-chairs@ietf.org; avt@ietf.org; > > > 'Dave Satterlee (Vocal)' > > > Subject: RE: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on > > > draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > First we want to thank everyone for their review and comments for this > draft RFC. We believe we reviewed all the comments and suggestions and > incorporated them adequately in the next draft (04). We'd like to send out > this list of exact changes in case anyone has additional comments or thinks > the clarifications are inadequate. We would be most happy to address > concerns before publishing draft 04 tomorrow. > > > > > > With so many emails from a half dozen or more reviewers, we apologize > that we cannot address each sender individually. We hope this detail is > sufficient for everyone. > > > > > > Again, many thanks to all. > > > > > > Victor & Dave > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -------------------------- > > > > > > Section 1.1 - Suggested reference to RFC 8088 added. > > > > > > (was) > > > Best current practices for writing an RTP payload format > > > specification were followed [RFC2736]. > > > > > > (now) > > > Best current practices for writing an RTP payload format > > > specification were followed [RFC2736] [RFC8088]. > > > > > > > > > Section 2, paragraphs 3 and 4 - Suggested edits by reviewers > > > > > > (was) > > > In addition to the augmented speech data, the TSVCIS specification > > > identifies which speech coder and framing bits are to be encrypted, > > > and how they are protected by forward error correction (FEC) > > > techniques (using block codes). At the RTP transport layer, only the > > > speech coder related bits need to be considered and are conveyed in > > > unencrypted form. In most IP-based network deployments, standard > > > link encryption methods (SRTP, VPNs, FIPS 140 link encryptors or Type > > > 1 Ethernet encryptors) would be used to secure the RTP speech > > > contents. Further, it is desirable to support the highest voice > > > quality between endpoints which is only possible without the overhead > > > of FEC. > > > > > > TSVCIS augmented speech data is derived from the signal processing > > > and data already performed by the MELPe speech coder. For the > > > purposes of this specification, only the general parameter nature of > > > TSVCIS will be characterized. Depending on the bandwidth available > > > (and FEC requirements), a varying number of TSVCIS specific speech > > > coder parameters need to be transported. These are first byte-packed > > > and then conveyed from encoder to decoder. > > > > > > (now) > > > In addition to the augmented speech data, the TSVCIS specification > > > identifies which speech coder and framing bits are to be encrypted, > > > and how they are protected by forward error correction (FEC) > > > techniques (using block codes). At the RTP transport layer, only the > > > speech-coder-related bits need to be considered and are conveyed in > > > unencrypted form. In most IP-based network deployments, standard > > > link encryption methods (SRTP, VPNs, FIPS 140 link encryptors or Type > > > 1 Ethernet encryptors) would be used to secure the RTP speech > > > contents. > > > > > > TSVCIS augmented speech data is derived from the signal processing > > > and data already performed by the MELPe speech coder. For the > > > purposes of this specification, only the general parameter nature of > > > TSVCIS will be characterized. Depending on the bandwidth available > > > (and FEC requirements), a varying number of TSVCIS-specific speech > > > coder parameters need to be transported. These are first byte-packed > > > and then conveyed from encoder to decoder. > > > > > > > > > Section 3, last sentence paragraph 3 - Suggested edit by reviewer > > > > > > (was) > > > When more than one codec data frame is > > > present in a single RTP packet, the timestamp is, as always, that of > > > the oldest data frame represented in the RTP packet. > > > > > > (now) > > > When more than one codec data frame is > > > present in a single RTP packet, the timestamp specified is that of > > > the oldest data frame represented in the RTP packet. > > > > > > > > > Section 3.1, last paragraph - Clarified permission for MELP 600 > > > end-to-end framing bit > > > > > > (was) > > > It should be noted that CODB for both the 2400 and 600 bps modes MAY > > > deviate from the values in Table 1 when bit 55 is used as an end-to- > > > end framing bit. Frame decoding would remain distinct as CODA being > > > zero on its own would indicate a 7-byte frame for either rate and the > > > use of 600 bps speech coding could be deduced from the RTP timestamp > > > (and anticipated by the SDP negotiations). > > > > > > (now) > > > It should be noted that CODB for MELPe 600 bps mode MAY deviate from > > > the value in Table 1 when bit 55 is used as an end-to-end framing > > > bit. Frame decoding would remain distinct as CODA being zero on its > > > own would indicate a 7-byte frame for either 2400 or 600 bps rate and > > > the use of 600 bps speech coding could be deduced from the RTP > > > timestamp (and anticipated by the SDP negotiations). > > > > > > > > > Section 3.2, first paragraph - Clarifications requested by reviewers > > > > > > (was) > > > The TSVCIS augmented speech data as packed parameters MUST be placed > > > immediately after a corresponding MELPe 2400 bps payload in the same > > > RTP packet. The packed parameters are counted in octets (TC). In > > > the preferred placement, shown in Figure 6, a single trailing octet > > > SHALL be appended to include a two-bit rate code, CODA and CODB, > > > (both bits set to one) and a six-bit modified count (MTC). The > > > special modified count value of all ones (representing a MTC value of > > > 63) SHALL NOT be used for this format as it is used as the indicator > > > for the alternate packing format shown next. In a standard > > > implementation, the TSVCIS speech coder uses a minimum of 15 octets > > > for parameters in octet packed form. The modified count (MTC) MUST > > > be reduced by 15 from the full octet count (TC). Computed MTC = TC- > > > 15. This accommodates a maximum of 77 parameter octets (maximum > > > value of MTC is 62, 77 is the sum of 62+15). > > > > > > (now) > > > The TSVCIS augmented speech data as packed parameters MUST be placed > > > immediately after a corresponding MELPe 2400 bps payload in the same > > > RTP packet. The packed parameters are counted in octets (TC). The > > > preferred placement SHOULD be used for TSVCIS payloads with TC less > > > than or equal to 77 octets, is shown in Figure 6. In the preferred > > > placement, a single trailing octet SHALL be appended to include a > > > two-bit rate code, CODA and CODB, (both bits set to one) and a six- > > > bit modified count (MTC). The special modified count value of all > > > ones (representing a MTC value of 63) SHALL NOT be used for this > > > format as it is used as the indicator for the alternate packing > > > format shown next. In a standard implementation, the TSVCIS speech > > > coder uses a minimum of 15 octets for parameters in octet packed > > > form. The modified count (MTC) MUST be reduced by 15 from the full > > > octet count (TC). Computed MTC = TC-15. This accommodates a maximum > > > of 77 parameter octets (maximum value of MTC is 62, 77 is the sum of > > > 62+15). > > > > > > > > > Section 3.3, first paragraph - Suggested edit by reviewer > > > > > > (was) > > > A TSVCIS RTP packet consists of zero or more TSVCIS coder frames > > > (each consisting of MELPe and TSVCIS coder data) followed by zero or > > > one MELPe comfort noise frame. The presence of a comfort noise frame > > > can be determined by its rate code bits in its last octet. > > > > > > (now) > > > A TSVCIS RTP packet payload consists of zero or more consecutive > > > TSVCIS coder frames (each consisting of MELPe 2400 and TSVCIS coder > > > data), with the oldest frame first, followed by zero or one MELPe > > > comfort noise frame. The presence of a comfort noise frame can be > > > determined by its rate code bits in its last octet. > > > > > > > > > Section 3.3, fourth paragraph - Clarification requested by reviewers > > > > > > (was) > > > TSVCIS coder frames in a single RTP packet MAY be of different coder > > > bitrates. With the exception for the variable length TSVCIS > > > parameter frames, the coder rate bits in the trailing byte identify > > > the contents and length as per Table 1. > > > > > > (now) > > > TSVCIS coder frames in a single RTP packet MAY have varying TSVCIS > > > parameter octet counts. Its packed parameter octet count (length) is > > > indicated in the trailing byte(s). All MELPe frames in a single RTP > > > packet MUST be of the same coder bitrate. For all MELPe coder > > > frames, the coder rate bits in the trailing byte identify the > > > contents and length as per Table 1. > > > > > > > > > Section 4.1 - Editor note removed > > > > > > > > > Section 4.1 - Change controller is now > > > > > > (now) > > > Change controller: IETF, contact > > > > > > > > > Section 5, first paragraph - Suggested edits by reviewers > > > > > > (was) > > > A primary application of TSVCIS is for radio communications of voice > > > conversations, and discontinuous transmissions are normal. When > > > TSVCIS is used in an IP network, TSVCIS RTP packet transmissions may > > > cease and resume frequently. RTP synchronization source (SSRC) > > > sequence number gaps indicate lost packets to be filled by PLC, while > > > abrupt loss of RTP packets indicates intended discontinuous > > > transmissions. > > > > > > (now) > > > A primary application of TSVCIS is for radio communications of voice > > > conversations, and discontinuous transmissions are normal. When > > > TSVCIS is used in an IP network, TSVCIS RTP packet transmissions may > > > cease and resume frequently. RTP synchronization source (SSRC) > > > sequence number gaps indicate lost packets to be filled by Packet > > > Loss Concealment (PLC), while abrupt loss of RTP packets indicates > > > intended discontinuous transmissions. Resumption of voice > > > transmission SHOULD be indicated by the RTP marker bit (M) set to 1. > > > > > > > > > Section 10 - Added reference > > > > > > (added) > > > [RFC8088] Westerlund, M., "How to Write an RTP Payload Format", > > > RFC 8088, DOI 10.17487/RFC8088, May 2017, > > > . > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ----------------------------- > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Roni Even (A) > > > Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2019 2:09 AM > > > To: victor.demjanenko@vocal.com; 'Benjamin Kaduk' ; > > > 'The IESG' > > > Cc: draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis@ietf.org; 'Ali Begen' > > > ; avtcore-chairs@ietf.org; avt@ietf.org; > > > 'Dave Satterlee (Vocal)' > > > Subject: RE: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on > > > draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > > > Hi, > > > About the reference to TSVCIS. > > > The RTP payload is about how to encapsulate the payload in an RTP > packet. The objective is to define how an RTP stack can insert the tsvcis > frames and extract the tsvcis frames from the RTP packet. Typically it is > not required to understand the payload structure in order to be able to > perform the encapsulation. > > > This is why the reference to the payload is Informational and we did > > > not require to have it publically available. If there is a need to > > > understand the payload itself for the encapsulating than we need > > > more information in the RTP payload specification and a publically > > > available normative reference. I think this is not the case here > > > > > > Roni Even > > > > > > AVTCore co-chair (ex Payload) > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: victor.demjanenko@vocal.com > > > [mailto:victor.demjanenko@vocal.com] > > > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2019 12:18 AM > > > To: 'Benjamin Kaduk'; 'The IESG' > > > Cc: draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis@ietf.org; 'Ali Begen'; > avtcore-chairs@ietf.org; avt@ietf.org; 'Victor Demjanenko, Ph.D.'; 'Dave > Satterlee (Vocal)' > > > Subject: RE: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on > > > draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > > > Everyone, > > > > > > Thanks for the comments. I think I mis-understood the ambiguity with > respect to to changing rates within a RTP packet. That was not plan. An > RTP packet must have MELP speech frames of the same rate. What is possible > is that the amount of augmented TSVCIS speech data may vary from one speech > frame to the next. This allows for a dynamic VDR as suggested by the NRL > paper. So an RTP packet may have varying TSVCIS data but must always have > MELPe 2400 data. > > > > > > Again backwards parsing is necessary but the timestamp uniformly > increments 22.5msec per combined MELP/TSVCIS speech frame. > > > > > > The NRL is a good public reference on the VDR aspects. The actual > TSVCIS spec we had was FOUO so we could not replicate its detail. (I > believe a later spec is public or at least partially public. I am trying to > get this.) The opaque data is pretty obvious with the TSVCIS spec in hand. > > > > > > We will address the issues/concerns raised next week. Other business > had priority. > > > > > > Thank you and enjoy the weekend. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Victor & Dave > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 2, 2019 10:40 PM > > > To: The IESG > > > Cc: draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis@ietf.org; Ali Begen > > > ; avtcore-chairs@ietf.org; > > > ali.begen@networked.media; avt@ietf.org > > > Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: > > > (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > > > draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-03: Discuss > > > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to > > > all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to > > > cut this introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > > > > Please refer to > > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis/ > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -- > > > DISCUSS: > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -- > > > > > > I support Magnus' point about the time-ordering of adjacent frames in a > packet. > > > > > > Additionally, I am not sure that there's quite enough here to be > interoperably implementable. Specifically, we seem to be lacking a > description of how an encoder or decoder knows which TSVCIS parameters, and > in what order, to byte-pack or unpack, respectively. One might surmise that > there is a canonical listing in [TSVCIS], but this document does not say > that, and furthermore [TSVCIS] is only listed as an informative reference. > (I couldn't get my hands on my copy, at least on short notice.) If we > limited ourselves to treating the TSVCIS parameters as an entirely opaque > blob (codec, convey these N octets to the peer with the appropriate one- or > two-byte trailer for payload type identification and framing), that would be > interoperably implementable, since the black-box bits are up to some other > codec to interpret. > > > > > > In a similar vein, we mention but do not completely specify the > potential for using CODB as an end-to-end framing bit, in Section 3.1 (see > Comment), which is not interoperably implementable without further details. > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -- > > > COMMENT: > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -- > > > > > > Where is [TSVCIS] available? > > > > > > Is [NRLVDR] the same as > > > https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a588068.pdf ? A URL in the > references would be helpful. > > > > > > Is additional TSVCIS data only present after 2400bps MELPe and the first > thing to get dropped under bandwidth pressure? The abstract and > introduction imply this by calling out MELPe 2400 bps speech parameters > explicitly, but Section 3 says that TSVCIS augments standard 600, 1200, and > 2400 bps MELP frames. > > > > > > It's helpful that Section 3.3 gives some general guidance for decoding > this payload type ("[t]he way to determine the number of TSVCIS/MELPe frames > is to identify each frame type and length"), but I think some generic > considerations would be very helpful to the reader much earlier, along the > lines of "MELPe and TSVCIS data payloads are decoded from the end, using the > CODA and CODB (and, if necessary, CODC and others) bits to determine the > type of payload. For MELPe payloads the type also indicates the payload > length, whereas for TSVCIS data an additional length field is present, in > one of two possible formats. A TSVCIS coder frame consists of a MELPe data > payload followed by zero or one TSVCIS data payload; after the TSVCIS > payload's presence/length is determined, then the preceding MELPe payload > can be determined and decoded. Per Section 3.3, multiple TSVCIS frames can > be present in a single RTP packet." This (or something like it) would also > serve to clarify the role of the COD* bits, which is otherwise only > implicitly introduced. > > > > > > Section 1.1 > > > > > > RFC 2736 is BCP 36 (but it's updated by RFC 8088 which is for some > reason an Informational document and not part of BCP 36?!). > > > > > > Section 2 > > > > > > In addition to the augmented speech data, the TSVCIS specification > > > identifies which speech coder and framing bits are to be encrypted, > > > and how they are protected by forward error correction (FEC) > > > techniques (using block codes). At the RTP transport layer, only the > > > speech coder related bits need to be considered and are conveyed in > > > unencrypted form. In most IP-based network deployments, standard > > > > > > Am I reading this correctly that this text is just summarizing what's in > the TSVCIS spec in terms of what needs to be in unencrypted form, so the > "only the speech coder related bits[...]" is not new information from this > document? I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion, regardless -- won't the > (MELPe) speech coder bits be enough to convey the semantic content of the > audio stream, something that one might desire to keep confidential? > > > > > > link encryption methods (SRTP, VPNs, FIPS 140 link encryptors or Type > > > 1 Ethernet encryptors) would be used to secure the RTP speech > > > contents. Further, it is desirable to support the highest voice > > > quality between endpoints which is only possible without the overhead > > > of FEC. > > > > > > I think I'm missing a step in how this conclusion was reached. > > > > > > TSVCIS will be characterized. Depending on the bandwidth available > > > (and FEC requirements), a varying number of TSVCIS specific speech > > > coder parameters need to be transported. These are first byte-packed > > > and then conveyed from encoder to decoder. > > > > > > Per the Discuss point, how do I know which parameters need to be > transported, and in what order? > > > > > > Byte packing of TSVCIS speech data into packed parameters is > > > processed as per the following example: > > > > > > Three-bit field: bits A, B, and C (A is MSB, C is LSB) > > > Five-bit field: bits D, E, F, G, and H (D is MSB, H is LSB) > > > > > > MSB LSB > > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 > > > +------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+ > > > | H | G | F | E | D | C | B | A | > > > +------+------+------+------+------+------+------+------+ > > > > > > This packing method places the three-bit field "first" in the lowest > > > bits followed by the next five-bit field. Parameters may be split > > > between octets with the most significant bits in the earlier octet. > > > Any unfilled bits in the last octet MUST be filled with zero. > > > > > > I agree with Adam that this is very unclear. A is the MSB of the > three-bit field but the LSB of the octet overall? > > > We probably need an example of splitting a parameter across octets as > well, to get the bit ordering right. > > > > > > Section 3.1 > > > > > > It should be noted that CODB for both the 2400 and 600 bps modes MAY > > > deviate from the values in Table 1 when bit 55 is used as an end-to- > > > end framing bit. Frame decoding would remain distinct as CODA > > > being > > > > > > Where is the use of CODB as an end-to-end framing bit defined? If we're > going to provide neither a complete description of how to do it nor a > reference to a better description, we probably shouldn't mention it at all. > > > > > > Section 3.2 > > > > > > RTP packet. The packed parameters are counted in octets (TC). In > > > the preferred placement, shown in Figure 6, a single trailing octet > > > SHALL be appended to include a two-bit rate code, CODA and CODB, > > > > > > I'd consider saying something about this being the preferred format > > > ("placement") due to its shorter length than the alternative, and say > that it "SHOULD be used for TSVCIS payloads with TC less than or equal to 77 > octetes". > > > > > > Section 3.3 > > > > > > When a longer packetization interval is used, is that indicated by > signaling or RTP timestamps or otherwise? > > > > > > TSVCIS coder frames in a single RTP packet MAY be of different coder > > > bitrates. With the exception for the variable length TSVCIS > > > parameter frames, the coder rate bits in the trailing byte identify > > > the contents and length as per Table 1. > > > > > > Maybe also note that the penultimate octet gives the length there? > > > > > > Information describing the number of frames contained in an RTP > > > packet is not transmitted as part of the RTP payload. The way to > > > determine the number of TSVCIS/MELPe frames is to identify each frame > > > type and length thereby counting the total number of octets within > > > the RTP packet. > > > > > > terminology nit: if a frame is the combination of MELPe and TSVCIS > payload data units then there are two layres of decoding to get a length for > the frame, since we have to get the TSVCIS length and then the MELPe length. > > > > > > Section 4.2 > > > > > > Parameter "ptime" cannot be used for the purpose of specifying > > > the > > > > > > nit: missing article ("The parameter") > > > > > > will be impossible to distinguish which mode is about to be used > > > (e.g., when ptime=68, it would be impossible to distinguish if the > > > packet is carrying one frame of 67.5 ms or three frames of 22.5 ms). > > > > > > So how is the operating mode determined, then? > > > (I think this is the same question I asked above) > > > > > > Section 4.4 > > > > > > For example, if offerer bitrates are "2400,600" and answer bitrates > > > are "600,2400", the initial bitrate is 600. If other bitrates are > > > provided by the answerer, any common bitrate between the offer and > > > answer MAY be used at any time in the future. Activation of these > > > other common bitrates is beyond the scope of this document. > > > > > > It seems important to specify whether this requires a new O/A exchange > or can be done "spontaneously" by just encoding different frame types. > > > (It seems like the latter is possible, on first glance, and this is > > > implied by Section 3.3's discussion of mixing them in a single > > > packet.) > > > > > > Section 5 > > > > > > Please expand PLC at first use (not second). > > > > > > Section 6 > > > > > > I don't understand the PLC usage. Is the idea that a receiver, on > seeing an SSRC gap, constructs fictitious PLC frames to "fill the gap" > > > and passes the resulting stream to the decoder? > > > > > > Section 8 > > > > > > and important considerations in [RFC7201]. Applications SHOULD use > > > one or more appropriate strong security mechanisms. The rest of this > > > section discusses the security-impacting properties of the payload > > > format itself. > > > > > > I thought we described TSVCIS itself (much earlier in the document) as > requiring encryption for some data; wouldn't that translate to a "MUST" > > > here and not a "SHOULD"? > > > > > > > > > > From nobody Mon Nov 25 10:48:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BD55120C2D for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 10:48:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=bluepopcorn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SbNE8mQ92jos for ; 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prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFJNz0MBEADME6UoNSsTvSDJOdzL4yWfH4HTTOOZZPUcM/at38j4joeBb2PdatlwCBtk 9ZjupxFK+Qh5NZC19Oa6CHo0vlqw7V1hx1MUhmSPbzKRcNFhJu0KcQdniI8qmsqoG50IELXN BPI5OEZ3chYHpoXXi2+VCkjXJyeoqRNwNdv6QPGg6O1FMbB+AcIZj3x5U18LnJnXv1i+1vBq CxbMP43VmryPf8BLufcEciXpMEHydHbrEBZb/r7SBkUhdQXjxRNcWOLeYvOVUOOrr1c+jvqm DEbTWUJVRnUro/WpZQBffFnymR0jjkdAa8eOVl/nF2oMLbaBsOMvxCRSSEcGhuqwbEappNVT 1nuBTbkJT/GGcXxc+lEx9uNj86oYC4384VZJMTd1BRI4qPXImNZCIdmpKegK743B6xxN6Qh1 Tg167pn9429JENQE/AFIVX5B/gpsg7Aq+3rmz9H6GbfovPvFV3TBTgsHCHAMC8XU+S4fhcqN PN0lbUeyb7g6wxaE+dYqC7TExx7G3prw4v66y0qS7ow/Cfw8XXOEkaFQ4XwP7nvfILT+9CcU yS8I40vlDFU9Wnt56CbGz0ZVQgHnwyPXL+S9kCcIwRLFx1M79s6T6qwX1TXadfpbi1uIw7XG TiPDT8Pk6i2y22oSSROyYD4D+wOhVkkvO0S8iZ3+LhAYUx86nwARAQABtCNKaW0gRmVudG9u IDxmZW50b25AYmx1ZXBvcGNvcm4ubmV0PokCVQQTAQIAPwIbAwYLCQgHAwIGFQgCCQoLBBYC AwECHgECF4AWIQS1nUkJe2fEXbvBaacbJaiwFdCfvgUCXVD9ggUJDORhvgAKCRAbJaiwFdCf vgiSEACd3Nem63zL2C6daCFfRzOANkf30Q8AvaRVwhfdFxs+5vETCzbqctrtIAHeqncXjm9G uEJWxecAiHZXKoWUEFECMp3+Saznw0np+c722M4k9xI+mxqbcE0qgpYQgA8zbS/Lbds3f/bk /00jrQg4VMkumONlh+RZVwxAsnWp8efrJsNTn0QOPZavAkPEN59wfyWQ3O4pNY8i3zum8Wge 8NS4BBMyG0fmjWgUq0K2QrTD4AKBslM2IWCLECypP1AOfHKmmTACKFOnzJJ4KspUw3hdBnS1 fvudUC8u26Q3T6rHosRqxGmgW7sQWwAusgMSa/A6zxR6soEBSsMT5Tf+VHebuz1FWE4ogrvJ InvewfYSCYzOQamYYGArcBtAzU00pUzW2Or7SlwZPHHy2EfMd0zvT7mwSYLwwwcCsWc1O/CI xHGea7PBgO3TdR0Ex254yc+NTyxF3isBC/fodF9aNWF6x6SV3VKYJ3U2uqS9ga85dZz8Qeps MwlSEGRVhVVWGbSxy0GxV5Up0yX4vl0kI0c7Tt57JCOoRBpn/lTK/7IEtZK6/uiw98KCy+BM uF7HPsgXjd/AQjSsZIJgDyVY/y7niduqhW2izNEdhV77htVbKHRf2SfJQNudWOIcOhUTlddH kOSjet+MDso61JxrFV4j/8wFno7NwpPIhD//HvKAiLkCDQRSTc9DARAAwZaXYs3OzGlpqvSH 3HR9GjSzIeP0EmsBCjpfIdZbQBwQ3ZREiMGInNxV+xkdjLDg0ctrWzUCUe3plWe5NJkpjqm+ KMc7GKhyeWJ5MZRtVrh0VpFTqi8UwYPWumAYqE1y/U1me/zHpfG9EDwdSYqMkPF76Fy5W+vh ZP2ILKaY8qWSLyH8TPl5mFGBypfT8Q6UuzlRs2aTbsTtBX/qwH7gztMRJSjQtYo20AqCgBBH IA/0xV5qDH7CVYyKyPQ4tJLQ8/xyTysUS5fewrj8lZo/G9SaNtC3CEvrJYwyA0nvYB6+hJPM qMP/tyRXM/9XY3qO4Vxuc+m5fYbTZa5GYAZNNuB5dvqI1U0sFTWBEbpAeabqCQ40ZnFSj+t1 tBuwfj4ey/oJ78WRyg5+VTvPKRRubOmZcnzj5yfTS3VGxAZb4Nsj1S2f3KLP0Z+Cv4dt893I 2JWTChw7jA1omF0QTQaBq140n084PFndBHudrZ3cz+APC89iie2HQ4jGQldXZXnGySHnHlA+ WUyZ9wgOplW9F4Q/Lps1bnuh5VttPVpNfjX8hiV48al+b+ut4nfzXAripIRWF3TL72/6JqgE KNhRKyRn0S6BidieSyHWzqJR3Roi/YNTvyXyLh6i6jtByb3FbnhYf/9olobDpj0E+kTemLrw owre85gwupSphqlzVSUAEQEAAYkCPAQYAQIAJgIbDBYhBLWdSQl7Z8Rdu8FppxslqLAV0J++ BQJdUP9SBQkM5GOPAAoJEBslqLAV0J++vZoP/1shJ+5iImGzvGUTTDJcAX6Wha+22QP0G51Z QGZbeB0gE+gDmRwd2yw0cO3y1sPoTJliUSuZ3DFIjv8CLBgDlrkUnijBWbi5YznsAZkH0vKG ESGzinJC6y/Nzf2TZokKiOaYrTYcZx8x2wxjNO+zsihm/rvhV/YnHEYd9dlV/MjAL3xtHU/9 fNcTDtF3RchADyVCxlqrRUkFj61dHxU+U5JRftyIliLltsy2Nlr4uAsxNX+tpAH2D2HLmjwx bV2fpTnFCVImtuo6ZqNZ8SMk1Xq0fBBdo3acBw42kL/qGIKS9x3NWEy8vsmQXn0QqNBd1Q62 9ghm82mHMTRKnOXqkMgICpZ0HffPf3p7zMkEqWptgEHxE6ZHm9hJMGEf8RED9DCYh+N1uFaM 7ndQPPFKlj80sGmNF9+01mO53hrxeL/WAdGox/STpTb2BDpiyrLdT/2R0vJNEfMxBBYlw1gc g8mPEwHwZ940/qql7e41TkDGUZa2a1WegKLj8hK1pgDDBptcdIvlvuk284jOZ2/jDyaBDsMf 310OoJchJ3977odtSCArybQIwMjTx0rv6dqjsuqP89jqlrGV6izqf1n4p4FNrBSWOSRGaoWD JJVHL4YUhP44G5xDBCtp3TqatLa5F2Rgxj50EFIzOuu9Pg1tBCPP1G+0EiikVTdDkC63X4RG Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 10:47:56 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20191122051334.zmz7ezloyvd5k7ie@outlook.office365.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 18:48:07 -0000 On 11/21/19 9:13 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 09:19:39AM +0800, Leif Johansson wrote: >> As a noob in this particular world I gotta ask: what are those lists? > One is https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internetpolicy. I have joined the list and have submitted a request to the ISOC support team to get access to the archives. But this mailing list and its archives are available only to Internet Society members and there are many stakeholders who probably aren't ISOC members. I think it would serve the wider internet community better to have this discussion happen in a more public venue. -Jim From nobody Mon Nov 25 11:31:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BFA7120DF3 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:31:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I9fGXJ7upe6j for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:31:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x536.google.com (mail-pg1-x536.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::536]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A280120E05 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:31:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x536.google.com with SMTP id b137so5362712pga.6 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:31:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rR/DVdcQ7DeSxeFbMlFJ7M5rxDrIbQap/WMAHA2U3hc=; b=a7pcc0HXPyt7cKEVaPfW1FNsoJ20e4IFey2U3SB1kRfOAOqOunk2iGPHP/yLGnL8xT AppRpPECGrJVbvy6IhsQoQ9zfbyNmXOGpFxqsl678bNaR2pRtZ7Mi8EMmb0Qzr1p8l/e WYHKC2NhnG1IpQfceoQrzokpKdSk4bTTc+9Czf02jhhnFqAMC1N98RR4IZCIA5ebg0ls mkk9ev8Xdcyd36rNhlD6xeuadNAia2KtkVdv1hSRK7rbz5YZ4j75F+CCFJrXI+CSKBUv +LoWTs9qFUY65j6HPzECHl3z1JLZtqCa6GRbFZDQFS81fmH2gtZKZuOOjascngfsoC+r K5Wg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=rR/DVdcQ7DeSxeFbMlFJ7M5rxDrIbQap/WMAHA2U3hc=; b=OkPWcrVN5cczbhKgT53EZ4uVTiy+SYbKDS2ryhccBRvVri8uiqeRp6vV2tcV2V/Xbw kY/D6uXFiiSXncXfIchVd+gejkiP5TnoowDRiziX71pVYqYuOvhIu06LHDVKcPnXYiGi BUPvEifFVPBIoCuFAUPUGuskx+p2pBI6tvq+zfldkX/laqWgGwPVgRIbJq958xbnCtbq j0MxX59X7m2FW08MUJ/ianaNdq+Gh1EdqytuiC3IKr3/c10VP5M46e4oaolWkAO4zM1g muGJ4v/4lQ2ABBeA+jUuHAa5Ra/TvWIiJfpJyHvR2+PtEj51cXw46+RGaHLVE6PzMZkd lhdw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVv1N9i061Ch9X0jQ3a7rh7kyfWJyGICPxA8Dq54IMndGxXNd8x NsVj+G6vJK39AE7qQOaGjzXdSLB3 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyca/nPbn6X2sjE8xTqOV7gT6WlNn1Z5HfkemzexS5wGqFoK4NVat/g22z6kLTvJtP76CL9UQ== X-Received: by 2002:a65:5589:: with SMTP id j9mr26771850pgs.303.1574710290673; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:31:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (8.166.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.166.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k66sm9278164pgk.16.2019.11.25.11.31.28 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:31:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: On IETF support (was Re: Important Announcement from the Internet Society and Public Interest Registry) To: ietf@ietf.org References: <20191120113723.hql4rf45e5j4vnge@outlook.office365.com> <63A4208C-EF9A-4574-B3DC-801763A792A3@mnt.se> <20191122051334.zmz7ezloyvd5k7ie@outlook.office365.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <2c363de2-3335-7c1a-5e83-c7fc119fae82@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 08:31:27 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 19:31:37 -0000 On 26-Nov-19 07:47, Jim Fenton wrote: > On 11/21/19 9:13 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: >> On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 09:19:39AM +0800, Leif Johansson wrote: >>> As a noob in this particular world I gotta ask: what are those lists? >> One is https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internetpolicy. > > I have joined the list and have submitted a request to the ISOC support > team to get access to the archives. But this mailing list and its > archives are available only to Internet Society members and there are > many stakeholders who probably aren't ISOC members. I think it would > serve the wider internet community better to have this discussion happen > in a more public venue. ISOC individual membership is available to anybody. As far as I know, it's still free of charge. How much more "public" do you want? https://portal.internetsociety.org/622619/form/join Brian From nobody Mon Nov 25 11:41:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDDBD120018 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:41:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7eLLzRCO1oZi for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:41:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DCEB120E09 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:40:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95ABA34F; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 14:40:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 25 Nov 2019 14:40:58 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=am7zIJ cMgBZPFn+/AUYbwq/Ij9V1fpyNglbtCbC7olc=; b=tMOz3B8r6FwDlrF8zV26Rw D5+E4OEUZg+VnJk7r+/F2qNKiPO4zo0MJf0D1ezJQ2oo45HVc69At00hhMJB1Mut w2ETHQLGXJrICcv8vJDxrG3igbx6ROZzBPHXtPTSbX/xoenu15mgH2BFjGjW1ML1 AsDWSuhatX7dKRAl5p2ZTA16LrmILTeoavQShmgGw83WbOygEvDiVzupq7YwcWNT oKvLqCP5RiYsx4I5UUD1PdkAMbInAkTgF06iVy6gGn6zS1dgx/5BjjGob3taRxLK R2yBv3IctU0I7cmmw8sqTfFLDpKZt4KCQHvSqT3AXNmS/l3zQ2+kFTj7o+S9CnNw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudeiuddguddvkecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtsegrtd erredtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucffohhmrghinhepihhnthgvrhhnvghtsh hotghivghthidrohhrghenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrudehnecurfgrrhgr mhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtg homhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 8ECB480061; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 14:40:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: On IETF support (was Re: Important Announcement from the Internet Society and Public Interest Registry) To: ietf@ietf.org References: <20191120113723.hql4rf45e5j4vnge@outlook.office365.com> <63A4208C-EF9A-4574-B3DC-801763A792A3@mnt.se> <20191122051334.zmz7ezloyvd5k7ie@outlook.office365.com> <2c363de2-3335-7c1a-5e83-c7fc119fae82@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <83dcf36b-dcdc-f591-fee5-70249a05ace6@network-heretics.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 14:40:56 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2c363de2-3335-7c1a-5e83-c7fc119fae82@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------7AE264C2B7D03C06155DBA24" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 19:41:04 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7AE264C2B7D03C06155DBA24 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 11/25/19 2:31 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> I have joined the list and have submitted a request to the ISOC support >> team to get access to the archives. But this mailing list and its >> archives are available only to Internet Society members and there are >> many stakeholders who probably aren't ISOC members. I think it would >> serve the wider internet community better to have this discussion happen >> in a more public venue. > ISOC individual membership is available to anybody. As far as I know, it's still > free of charge. How much more "public" do you want? > https://portal.internetsociety.org/622619/form/join Should you really have to join ISOC just to discuss a subject of significant importance to the Internet community? For that matter, how does the Internet community benefit by having the discussion siloed? Keith --------------7AE264C2B7D03C06155DBA24 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 11/25/19 2:31 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

I have joined the list and have submitted a request to the ISOC support
team to get access to the archives. But this mailing list and its
archives are available only to Internet Society members and there are
many stakeholders who probably aren't ISOC members. I think it would
serve the wider internet community better to have this discussion happen
in a more public venue.

ISOC individual membership is available to anybody. As far as I know, it's still
free of charge. How much more "public" do you want?
https://portal.internetsociety.org/622619/form/join

Should you really have to join ISOC just to discuss a subject of significant importance to the Internet community?

For that matter, how does the Internet community benefit by having the discussion siloed?

Keith


--------------7AE264C2B7D03C06155DBA24-- From nobody Tue Nov 26 10:34:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69863120AAA; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 10:34:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ih9Tugcfpavr; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 10:34:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x335.google.com (mail-wm1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84524120AA7; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 10:34:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x335.google.com with SMTP id l17so4357344wmh.0; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 10:34:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=reskpcPLQ9MOue5ZfshjJQgNQb9ZbBh6lmMmyEV8tOA=; b=a5F8xdhg+TC/gYe//+RXmSmwigg1CFLONAnZ9Jt9q+s5yY1sMgx4wzCoIWvfOd7fRR kH5QXCtdQpUC3PIkMbT9Pq+FDR9UQLgE6d1Q1si+kHiOXHL+nTwtvC167f6PePvlbaSI XsWFJ6cr0Ik/hPsrMFwmuV1dzDJAJaA2YgYwjNkyvzzgROCLORm/ECUybzwTZnRL8LSz TQhgm4KoVm+cMzAzxij9HFHavpqrTVWOgwwy88ElAjkKVNwoj63KL1Vh6yKz/W8ixJ3g h+ZcXXPka8CPVkxtsNu/pdLbwqDMFDrG6w+cgurAqqweLvTw3Rm8SQ2+8HeIweiJWTyI xJcw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=reskpcPLQ9MOue5ZfshjJQgNQb9ZbBh6lmMmyEV8tOA=; b=LItlq/6O9DD1+GqshoJCXMYc1VMGlBN7qlBxMwQ3dtWE8JEb0KmtBMF0Hml7506Px8 pMDb6EbJS8Ty4nPNm2gefhvi6TB6eaJHvVjHj0nOSNwSHz7VsTvOPEUEVooAq14QOb4H i1BA8ttP+TLTeSSlgKnlFMlshwA67hY5+VYkS31uV/I1SH6Jr0V2rCtW+gqVISsT7evT bhrkQ84jPGVIUwvQ4K/yA8q6QuuLMn4eQzw6U0shkfL2Bc7h2U/YfuVQswzKWHqg5Xq9 wp/7VHZ+U6bPStFvNCG9sG3nkUiSN3UHGobfJbOxgM1h2xFljEqeLd2KOHISoKtOcImE ze9A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXuNuf3Jo3n9QnWa0N78cZw3C8xheEeu2QenVIXMFz1UQD03Bi8 6sB7n6vXG60rBO7Lw6gWYYkUsA/xSQhPutnyj9I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwqkxGN8Fc+TZQtDPOAQz4QpbnpHUT7ZBMPujC9WklfJF5BXMHc+6yR4Uj9YCbimaI2eihxf3zRDhS/PWN/19A= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:ed0e:: with SMTP id l14mr436582wmh.74.1574793258806; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 10:34:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <93C85F33-54A6-4AC6-B251-C3234140E2E9@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <93C85F33-54A6-4AC6-B251-C3234140E2E9@gmail.com> From: ryan stephenson Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:34:07 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [106attendees] Let's have some fun: PechaKucha & friends To: Aaron Falk Cc: IRTF Discuss , IETF WG Chairs , IETF Discussion , 106 attendees <106attendees@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c9354505984420bf" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 18:34:22 -0000 --000000000000c9354505984420bf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Are the slides from Pecha Kucha available? Thanks! On Sat, Nov 16, 2019 at 9:17 PM Aaron Falk wrote: > Four talks proposed to date. Would love to see a few more presenters. > > On 13 Nov 2019, at 3:43, Aaron Falk wrote: > > Still looking for a few more presenters for next Thursday night... > > This is a call for participation in a social event around satirical short > talks. (There is usually beer involved.) In the past, talks needed to fit > the PechaKucha format but it is rather strict (20 slides, each on screen > for 20 seconds, minimal text). So, I=E2=80=99d like to repeat the experim= ent we > tried in Montreal. Any talk format will be allowed (including PK) with a > maximum length of 7 minutes. As before, the topics are encouraged to be a > IETF-related and satirical or controversial in some way, although not > mean-spirited. Anyone can participate in this unofficial social event. > > Date: Thursday evening (November 21) starting at 9:30pm in Sophia. > > If you haven=E2=80=99t been to one of these events, Here are two of my pe= rsonal > favorites from prior IETFs by Pete > > and Brian > . > Video from the past BA PKs can be found here > . > > If you want to do a pechakucha, there are lots of online tutorials and > suggestions for how to make a good PechaKucha. Here are a few: [1 > ], [2 > ], > [3 ]. > > As my friend Spencer says: =E2=80=9CMake good decisions, People!=E2=80=9D > > Format Details: > > - Presentation slots are open to all, assigned first come, first > served. > - To reserve a presentation slot, send a name and title to > aaron.falk@gmail.com and receive confirmation. > - Presenters must agree to limit their talks to less than 7 minutes > (strictly enforced using the Lars Eggert Approach). > - Slides are due Thursday 6pm in Powerpoint or PDF. > > -- > 106attendees mailing list > 106attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/106attendees > --000000000000c9354505984420bf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = --Apple-Mail-A34057C4-B63C-4518-80ED-60BC805CCABF-- From nobody Fri Nov 29 14:18:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE6F91200FF for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 14:18:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.105 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.105 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mkOFNcg9Nc6h for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 14:18:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa3.jck.com (unknown [65.175.133.137]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 075181200DE for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 14:18:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from hp5.int.jck.com ([198.252.137.153] helo=JcK-HP5.jck.com) by bsa3.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1iaoaX-0005Kj-Us; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 17:18:09 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 17:18:04 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Brian E Carpenter , ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Message-ID: <9BC98F1944F184A7DC2BA973@JcK-HP5.jck.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <502f830c-973d-cc9d-12b4-0bda40b05c46@gmx.de> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 22:18:13 -0000 --On Friday, 29 November, 2019 09:30 +1300 Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> AFAIR, the intent was to *paginate*, nothing more (yes, no >> headers, footers, no page numbers). > > What I care most about is to have a side-by-side diff format > as useful as rfcdiff produces. From a practical point of view, > that has been the greatest benefit of pagination and fixed > width font for many years now. The ability to print on a line > printer or a Diabolo hasn't been important for 25 years or so. I think others have commented on the assumption that pagination is good only if the document is headed for a line printer, but it may be worth pointing out that a recent errata submission may have identified a weakness in rfcdiff. An erratum submitted last April complained about an extended example in RFC 5321 being internally inconsistent about leading spaces that turn out to be important. (see https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5711 for details, but they aren't important). The problem is that the XML source appears to be correct -- leading spaces in both parts of the example -- but the XML output (under v2) isn't. This wasn't caught caught during AUTH48 or earlier, or apparently in the decade between 5321's publication and the erratum, at least in because the author was relying on rfcdiff and it is apparently insensitive to leading, as well as other types of spaces. I don't think that is a case for an emergency fix to rfcdiff, especially one that might have side-effects I haven't thought about, nor a fix to v2 of xml2rfc, but it should be another reminder than we two be very careful about what xml2rfc produces, especially in a world in which the XML is the canonical form but that there is no requirement that the IETF's favorite xml2rfc processor be used to process that source (and I don't know enough to know whether the IETF-approved Style Sheet covers this situation or not). best, john From nobody Fri Nov 29 14:35:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A44D11200B3 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 14:35:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aJVZgvlUNTzE for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 14:35:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CCE212008A for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 14:35:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.116] (p548DC893.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.200.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 47Pq821vmhzykB; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 23:34:58 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <9BC98F1944F184A7DC2BA973@JcK-HP5.jck.com> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 23:34:57 +0100 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , ietf@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 596759695.88833-89257e8a77de4a7db235b77ff054953b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8BB84241-F3E3-4A42-9FF8-E7F07D4DD877@tzi.org> References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <502f830c-973d-cc9d-12b4-0bda40b05c46@gmx.de> <9BC98F1944F184A7DC2BA973@JcK-HP5.jck.com> To: John C Klensin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 22:35:03 -0000 On Nov 29, 2019, at 23:18, John C Klensin wrote: >=20 > identified a weakness in rfcdiff The RFC 7386/7396 accident was also caused by this (root cause was = apparently the use of HT characters, which need to be expunged from the = universe, but rfcdiff helped in not detecting the problem before = publication). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Nov 29 21:22:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F2061200D7 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 21:22:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id scSCsGQHrpc8 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 21:22:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17EA112001E for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 21:22:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1575091328; bh=PHxg1XDyscykpR6aNRXSGYQFdC4yKVnOlcG+9fC6RRg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=eAhxaLXXlhVJIoyNVjGbDme0dPKw2n5Lm+zS1l6RAKXaLie00v0xaHj0rrRMioUqO /BuCPBeqjejYVvT3fv448feEIE9XRsAzRwQerdP5PrSdGRumlJ8XWVk9+9aH2Twg4+ oEqpLLtznV4GRrIsIqfeXIRMeR5rMkCW+e7/hJcc= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.124] ([217.251.131.2]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Md6Mt-1i1rdb3Mod-00aEeU; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 06:22:08 +0100 Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting To: Carsten Bormann , John C Klensin Cc: ietf@ietf.org References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <502f830c-973d-cc9d-12b4-0bda40b05c46@gmx.de> <9BC98F1944F184A7DC2BA973@JcK-HP5.jck.com> <8BB84241-F3E3-4A42-9FF8-E7F07D4DD877@tzi.org> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <8a5d8dd2-1346-9940-938a-62b87b512f36@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 06:22:04 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8BB84241-F3E3-4A42-9FF8-E7F07D4DD877@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:vbR+llPctVZAFP8bemwwMBPtKLRgEPRAJJiGErBTXWLMZLKPIZS ayNlQGqagg+PUQHI6Fyz2yCPCXpOflb5bYXKNQc+VKwsCr0NL0dJH6m5ivpvHXvzz4lLq7c ADZcb63bQX+GN3RsiqLaa0U/aOp7dtzTmXP6GXFoySLZCBWpdG+QcGtZ6ygqT5mp+FNmtft aMZORdnKqiDwENazkpQsQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:QiX9JJNxQRM=:AbmEtScfhnJFgNQRLwdFnZ xEnZfbIf9NBlVkuWSS3lGt94dqpo8U/hUkcdQ8DEaWxPS8oCcHk71Oc3DOLtLypP2KQRShU9e BS0QJqaQ+RFlQid8s5oOo+pl4w0bIT9Z8lIm1HG/IMqChc7O3GvpPbrRQ9tymnf6TxbCFkf0n JxVSf9ii/1TZoWymUas7hHTSu0l1q4OjtxANC090CYDwQpYHXGFbRedtpbMeVCbtBdwCEut3R RRTaDaTOu3bq8NN6H0DB1LpQBm89ATzX0DPzqrcvQeSh8yRt9gIhc30os+dc5/e4Elei/SUqt nxyKnoMOZ7CQaCgACKir1cHodg3krImBJ9Sl4+lVcXZiVE5NpiejBNZW3McZXYnOehHoyH2xk rq4tDbnyezvB0CrQI6viKJnHj0/L5Na+fUGj4XGhMq6eqAB8RKMGURMlRCN7BUswi0RitE9/8 1FxyY7nK0Q8jmk60As23a+mw3NmU5EsA/gGKM5tKsUdEWz2ZNb+CGZZLJs4CL40EZGW/23Er+ xgCL5t7iIrRB8MGLwqehnueKQK7k8hDYQM/E8P78O41thyHE3WizwwM7KQLgltb1Zyc+KxYIg A6CaPtqz3nVa/vzN+muBdL5vhOGtWKXKVb7Vokab66vKVUmv4QioD/ROKI/tGUlpqrKBw/Bs3 sHUVC7zDtsVbjJzkrWEaYWu1FvzfkLajvKqt7smzhZaOhQ5rJ05eeg4rrmKTUoOqXzGfLGG0e xNnyVBGP8G/MHjIdagkj8WNGGTzTyHLS3JzeGm40bKHNCPaqlSX40JKLeqaV8Xgk0qZm4KfKi BgKiraRK+EaNbzDuxuHHxoXbhDqkAzM1ogIBeN24KQNddFx3R8sVX92GTai02I7eTUjiaJrlU fbq0mex05fIDHgIs5lUkHLJciWvKEOlj33gFjtll5UqIJI0NP+ioYFotqXeO67MNEOrE71gj0 l7OmXhSfWfxyuaN1tZSiuhpBLCG2c0xgncblJj+Ugb27OVNCRov+ErsNKGjPel8e+QfwKGJD5 Sh9fPd+SYkqg+0VDNn8WYxnEtyNUeRI8yOIUIfIOsyJLFcszkM1FyqwtqJCZnEkkefkZEBFcV Xp4PU1+upn0M3H4b7KKUsqHL9e1aqXfmOhsvxWPpDJ1e+qWoGxfcbpKfK0NnJLSJTbMAunHLV Et6NtixprS+CwpEbO91yxxk13azoOt2vJjXgNwiUt9l/nv/obCrTUMAvLviRZfdXUdyGZw+PX Gg14mgePitaS80yf+HESsPu+CP8FynDt5AX2dbbU5F3uSEOZcQlPLIvdDk6s= Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 05:22:29 -0000 On 29.11.2019 23:34, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On Nov 29, 2019, at 23:18, John C Klensin wrote: >> >> identified a weakness in rfcdiff > > The RFC 7386/7396 accident was also caused by this (root cause was appar= ently the use of HT characters, which need to be expunged from the univers= e, but rfcdiff helped in not detecting the problem before publication). > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten rfc2629.xslt has been warning about HTAB since 2014-10-16 (likely triggered by that accident). xml2rfc has a ticket open about that: (dated 2019-04-14, still in status "new"). Best regards, Julian From nobody Fri Nov 29 21:38:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 563B81200A1 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 21:38:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LpDScm-xwpik for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 21:38:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7B5312001A for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 21:38:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1575092301; bh=t+ML2XogBQTHFE0PYiQumkhXTxuUbO6wJKvrriLIy9U=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=HTwv1tknSBHv2WVftQZCGDIwQj9Golsqdgu5cQgT286jPKmw73ASr/ahQXRIk1G4T 9O9e/Hhe2ISbeZmkHU9kQSFYh/IAIWQTmCiQNDhQfbZlXjz/Lb9Hs8He7h2FSsqvxx 8TdCCp+mJOXR0ew6J2E87RZuBboTlE4p9tgFb030= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.124] ([217.251.131.2]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N5VD8-1hheFz1zP0-016y0j; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 06:38:21 +0100 Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting To: John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter , ietf@ietf.org References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <502f830c-973d-cc9d-12b4-0bda40b05c46@gmx.de> <9BC98F1944F184A7DC2BA973@JcK-HP5.jck.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 06:38:18 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9BC98F1944F184A7DC2BA973@JcK-HP5.jck.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:XnwwWt9gAU56qi5L2pK7Fnmr/rFPecmgbWeR5ih7iXbAoqhBdMM KUhMPVXmgGXMGUOe3c9z/ARKrU1boeyH54cCEemmV1uZun5kiKfn0LXDMRn5EJqMTVgrxaO SMXUoN8md8ZbirBsm4BIx/yd+X7RrF7Aw108OU9o8qTjRzl+GxltzfGjNCLtxVErdHUT5F1 U8NhCAtFCBz6ep7yD00jw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:LX0G/deJdbg=:8Md54cEctC5wXJPL4iAmI4 7a0AgDaHYW67eQECMfSNU7jgoKF9ZyEMhTtlVOp6UYHsi/KqE0I7kjrJ2EYlHFX/ojMZzXv4G 52lY+sgw6jbTHGX0RDzhuZJ9uHvNfGzu5FjApZRzx610WSTQu6WpogsVB/tUqyIJPtUdGEJXw fGEiidI/aC9IqoKK1efCMhfiG412OA/mTCxWbdq/syhdjiXY08JIMgKlWMDn6akAnM4/PnOmP 5o2SNRGe9gQSRU9ghfF3B7JCo0/XlzQMzhYzGbbwhyC+nxTtEbh7U+8qLg8kpnyJ7ipBz5VeA FG2fYLffrlJf+MwDPCgvmwumq25RjVaw963We1vtiy905offKUE44bavuVZNSv8x7p0sQTNYD A5Af9XWUtOg8Ch3CniMBT/rFr/SbanaF0rLyYK9al6b4U2l2CTrsEPU8db3i7nFm8QpcWwFDt 4D6rh7WwtAYVIE7gtQkoWrr7YoA0g3S8WOQdcQtT9WbnbLTSeNL2mPZSsxft0OTKE2HTM7MT8 Q7bvOXwMp2njxhGd6GjuWstun+PnZaLWhr4vJ7Kj9zxZ1xUJLKGTOyQ3C/VkV0RTY4jVD2/90 QTqzixGhSN+3EcdVjSD5hgw924chaHXV9pOF0Jm4qSVf34wyOuvsiy5XiyGG4N9f5Ay03egPk CQOxQ6o1Jdw94f2IPpzBy3CTmBxaVVcYeab/ullXbgSrrvEcvoEATY9Ln6E/gm9vSUgGuI699 V8kZ80vpL8Wn7s8841Uyfub8E4bcJscJKKatQDQWEeiIZIqo/y+tBElXkWLwzzDaV29C3oWM4 peMy9tYloFCAfTCQa8jR8l6xB7pais2RLrPBDlydlNlB2xiBY8lqJkOxcXpTN4Ad2NuS748K1 zkAuw3ZSXdjwk26vEtt4xt365mHTHz9GSa7pVnGC/+8kVj1pgkTMrs5nCd7wB3sP3XnwZdf95 qm6ilYZ6tqrIx3DEg8gdxpFUjrfjLKIxxqwJEgMDGCrm05eMzyWEkpZyFoWwl/bZaosLGUJpU pzy0qe6c80a3D+/WyXelUPuTySBv5CKQh1LV2dZKjDVZ4xeVBoqc3vCz+YR2JJLMMsJ7k9Pgf ulHjKsoq18C5Hq/x9ydEJ735Xq1ngtjJ7PXc8EJuZakO+I2kO0PHJH3nQqwtGrjPBnlq2hrQC GOvv8kW+TowsQ88F7pQIZn9IKL4LuWRpXB+HZK3xagjvVr0QCIAssprMEVlwf7dISTu9AvZLc fyE/VTXbo0abGjOgt0XInx//LYcwCeUz/6TJ+EAFHCA1M/8YeOhaUtrtWkkc= Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 05:38:36 -0000 On 29.11.2019 23:18, John C Klensin wrote: > ... > I think others have commented on the assumption that pagination > is good only if the document is headed for a line printer, but > it may be worth pointing out that a recent errata submission may > have identified a weakness in rfcdiff. An erratum submitted > last April complained about an extended example in RFC 5321 > being internally inconsistent about leading spaces that turn out > to be important. (see https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5711 > for details, but they aren't important). The problem is that > the XML source appears to be correct -- leading spaces in both > parts of the example -- but the XML output (under v2) isn't. So what caused the problem in the XML output? (my copy of rfc5321.xml from AUTH48 seems to be truncated, so I can't tell). > This wasn't caught caught during AUTH48 or earlier, or > apparently in the decade between 5321's publication and the > erratum, at least in because the author was relying on rfcdiff > and it is apparently insensitive to leading, as well as other > types of spaces. I don't think that is a case for an emergency That's a good reminder. I had a similar issue in the past, which I detected when doing an *actual* diff instead of rfcdiff. It's easy to forget though. > fix to rfcdiff, especially one that might have side-effects I > haven't thought about, nor a fix to v2 of xml2rfc, but it should > be another reminder than we two be very careful about what > xml2rfc produces, especially in a world in which the XML is the > canonical form but that there is no requirement that the IETF's > favorite xml2rfc processor be used to process that source (and I > don't know enough to know whether the IETF-approved Style Sheet > covers this situation or not). Well, we'd have to know about the actual cause. If it was an HTAB (as suggested by Carsten), then the answer is: - rfc2629.xslt added a warning back in 2014 - RFC 7749 warns about HTAB in : "Note that processors differ in the handling of horizontal TAB characters (some expand them, some treat them as single spaces), and thus these ought to be avoided." - RFC 7791 makes it an error: : "Tab characters (U+0009) inside of this element are prohibited." - I'm not sure what xml2rfc does in the current version, but I reported a bug back in April () Finally, what do you mean by "IETF-approved Style Sheet"? Best regards, Julian From nobody Sat Nov 30 12:27:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 286C012008F for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 12:27:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sc3qRjxtANL8 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 12:27:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEE20120105 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 12:27:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:64581 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ib9KZ-0006gG-Pz; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 12:27:16 -0800 To: Keith Moore , ietf@ietf.org, John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <8c144ffb-ca56-4a80-a994-9b8002eac17b@network-heretics.com> From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 21:26:54 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8c144ffb-ca56-4a80-a994-9b8002eac17b@network-heretics.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2JExEhjV1v69qWthNuPUDdhWJfOevB3RN" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com, john-ietf@jck.com, ietf@ietf.org, moore@network-heretics.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 20:27:44 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --2JExEhjV1v69qWthNuPUDdhWJfOevB3RN Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="oUWKebuUQ7qNjo5eOPwVJr3Lg6oCFjAlS"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Keith Moore , ietf@ietf.org, John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <8c144ffb-ca56-4a80-a994-9b8002eac17b@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: <8c144ffb-ca56-4a80-a994-9b8002eac17b@network-heretics.com> --oUWKebuUQ7qNjo5eOPwVJr3Lg6oCFjAlS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Sorry for becoming aware of this thread a bit late. More below: On 2019-11-29 06:22, Keith Moore wrote: > On 11/28/19 11:33 AM, John C Klensin wrote: >=20 >> Hi. I realize it is very late, probably too late, to be >> complaining about this, but my clear recollection was that, when >> the v3 project was started, the community was promised that, >> while the authoritative/ canonical/ archival format would shift >> to the XML and fully-functional HTML and PDF format (not just >> HTML and PDF produced from plain text forms) would become >> available, the plain text format would be preserved sufficiently >> that tools [1] that were designed for, and used with, RFCs for >> the last 40-odd years would continue to work and work equally >> well [2]. >=20 > FWIW, I also recall this promise, at least being made verbally. >=20 > I hope it's not too late to fix this. The xml2rfc default setting for v3 text output for drafts is to paginate.= There's an option to turn off pagination for drafts. Text output for RFCs is currently always unpaginated. During development of the v3 text output it's been very clear, from the specifications and also when I asked the RFC-Editor if the matter of pagination had been reconsidered, that pagination of RFCs was not to be done. If being able to generate paginated text output for published v3 RFC XML files is desirable, I'm happy to add a switch to do that. Best regards, Henrik --oUWKebuUQ7qNjo5eOPwVJr3Lg6oCFjAlS-- --2JExEhjV1v69qWthNuPUDdhWJfOevB3RN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl3i0I4ACgkQTptXS4+7 FxqrNhAA0tkPBvtkx1sJs5VpkZWhxajilJTMx0u/BVvfc63o6e4QIrWavBiqvez1 BZY3rjyf/6GtDkMSk/CkJNlC4rRb1I4QMIqxl8RezXeMCdIpkHgyvbXT3dradEdt 0BfXdudnVbnjxFQB8EDz3Gd29u+VVDIH1jUWnHmEng0VpN7n+H5Y9BrWd1qSDD5r e8bfySAQT2kZ909OCZmPELh6LKcFAj2Ls7gd/0UirgXCVpIPrcCQdYLAir070WrS 1N8MJ3tBOIyK+0DlNuP0B9pEo3oB6CZqihG57S8j+2AEVYZOd+iIXTetECaFisto XisubNwLU6/0+VREMeHjCOeyHMrHNHZ3PIWUlw9qfCUflx4fUjmLXRMDwELtdFwk mjMAwkfJ5MvoGv2NFbaPqD/86H/QEbFOsroB8o+MT7EU7Xz9KKnEYDlxOv66gTEB T2nLW5JUUjCkUseIvq1GkrYsjyM2pG04KhMPv6pyHc8IcGTnZ23wUGK0toMY8Vt9 U1+qCSs9LXD44K8Fti0pMPOlK2bqt4M58tVrUVTP/90UdVnbhXGKDpUjwX27rUF1 HG5KVBajLpibdDvx+xPrk64Y49/3MTSM1Pu5tc04vEL3L4cHt9Vl9e89QFfKE5hf kijfJt5MbPf1C5v5awzkBAM++ka4sf3EcZfQ1px2y7qADtq3ISU= =R86a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2JExEhjV1v69qWthNuPUDdhWJfOevB3RN-- From nobody Sat Nov 30 14:22:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33136120817 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 14:22:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xPn78lIZ_rwx for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 14:22:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92234120058 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 14:22:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.116] (p548DC893.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.200.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 47QQq83Qmnz10qw; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 23:22:28 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 23:22:27 +0100 Cc: Keith Moore , ietf@ietf.org, John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 596845339.895529-3bea1bcea5bd57b9ca767d7f7b9670d0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <8c144ffb-ca56-4a80-a994-9b8002eac17b@network-heretics.com> To: Henrik Levkowetz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 22:22:33 -0000 On Nov 30, 2019, at 21:26, Henrik Levkowetz = wrote: >=20 > If being able to generate paginated text output for published v3 RFC = XML > files is desirable, I'm happy to add a switch to do that. Please do. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sat Nov 30 14:58:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 038E812082B for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 14:58:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zh9mZ5lZlA2f for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 14:58:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3612B12082A for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 14:58:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47CC8749; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 17:58:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 30 Nov 2019 17:58:48 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=0FwdNu gb+FCCvPQrUYGWFTMY6Sl6zBqVmeC8xfw9AfQ=; b=VPe09TPTb0pqVAI4hSVtF9 zv/Wx8nzeJc46BAYEDGsGPrgmvh7IOTb6vIakhMkeFREBQZsN28iLOrkbUJ2iuIL 4Z7mkaS8uo2VBTRURLgtKr5reuLLCBVt385AzBU1IpRG2lNprbb/4UF5FoBXarrI GkzBs8fBic9T6rfbEkr6e79mZV2nO6iR9LTs/4MGeyQXcm7iLhlaE/oz3pZMnjeT GOpcQTn+pezksj2xSKscTw7lMpo1hSDTPeaK8FhnG5Ky6BOJj/2zttl+aGB4VsEs tsiEc5UI/DLNbKCi+7bePuUInl79CYXlhO6VmGx4D3wwEtcEC5uuDq87REO4OGVw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudejvddgtdefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtsegrtderredtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhh ucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqe enucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrudehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhm pehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvg hrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 85E8030600BD; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 17:58:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting To: Carsten Bormann , Henrik Levkowetz Cc: ietf@ietf.org, John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <8c144ffb-ca56-4a80-a994-9b8002eac17b@network-heretics.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <40cb6637-48af-0d27-94d7-9388417c17ba@network-heretics.com> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 17:58:45 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------19AF68133DA2309A7C2C50A1" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 22:58:54 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------19AF68133DA2309A7C2C50A1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 11/30/19 5:22 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On Nov 30, 2019, at 21:26, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> If being able to generate paginated text output for published v3 RFC XML >> files is desirable, I'm happy to add a switch to do that. > Please do. Yes, please do.   Though IMO this should be the default. (paginated, not necessarily including page numbers). Keith --------------19AF68133DA2309A7C2C50A1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 11/30/19 5:22 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:

On Nov 30, 2019, at 21:26, Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com> wrote:

If being able to generate paginated text output for published v3 RFC XML
files is desirable, I'm happy to add a switch to do that.

Please do.

Yes, please do.   Though IMO this should be the default.   (paginated, not necessarily including page numbers).

Keith


--------------19AF68133DA2309A7C2C50A1-- From nobody Sat Nov 30 15:46:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89FE120129 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 15:46:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g33Gg-DCn4qe for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 15:46:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493A4120047 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 15:46:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47QSgl1YCLz6G8CS; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 15:46:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1575157571; bh=3cEt1fqb/nIYnjixTWlPSQd1+FEa3T847cdiY3QwfxM=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=g1KBCEPSVoby8YpGK51RQUxKQVCLg+FyspOIoHEgVDNQ71X/RfbsKaKaX3YTc9jqN ccNFItkDO9ytK6l/g+5/E7TtOGnAkhCHXmGnATbsEkvaP4R9CjC2O3urH7UDc7KLTu Ir/ICLOMpg7B5xzlNgFdpk+Qn/xRGDiovPIBkth8= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 47QSgk16kkz6G8CL; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 15:46:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting To: Keith Moore , Carsten Bormann Cc: ietf@ietf.org References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <8c144ffb-ca56-4a80-a994-9b8002eac17b@network-heretics.com> <40cb6637-48af-0d27-94d7-9388417c17ba@network-heretics.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <449e262a-6c7e-4278-812b-c40476af7af0@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 18:46:08 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <40cb6637-48af-0d27-94d7-9388417c17ba@network-heretics.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 23:46:13 -0000 It seems that it ought to take a consensus call (here, rfc-interest, somewhere else?) to change the default output prouced by the IETF tools. The question of pagination of output was more contentious than I would have expected in previous rounds. Yours, Joel On 11/30/2019 5:58 PM, Keith Moore wrote: > On 11/30/19 5:22 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > >> On Nov 30, 2019, at 21:26, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >>> If being able to generate paginated text output for published v3 RFC XML >>> files is desirable, I'm happy to add a switch to do that. >> Please do. > > Yes, please do.   Though IMO this should be the default. (paginated, not > necessarily including page numbers). > > Keith > > From nobody Sat Nov 30 15:55:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17DB212081E for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 15:55:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iV0uitNj0puP for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 15:55:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD2DB120047 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 15:55:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 105B078A; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 18:55:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 30 Nov 2019 18:55:43 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=ktANaOL5iFrjWkV6c17q7KKzl7PPpY0HW9bmuqoId DM=; b=uP2Pe5umWEv7uxxtkfMLqmRAvwMHAR9tc3AKJJMjLnvKBWaIPWdoyxebU ifxJGXFKH8xp8M8DTtwnx+vu/kUfey4aHZ00RBy5zc7GBJn0kPUPYNN53Qpiup9L /e5An4tAgPfYT13kEpx2s2Ik0XZcNfwwa7WnBmQS7/0+kCJtmJuyCGygUtqRdqup 6JeyOQ41LRKtNp3COiCiP4Mp2UR/DBNVkpccUv9edf5GnCNU8oRcaqrvsvFI7R2v DIuVnsdHZnJz+oHVxJ+znlJ8SJVrRl7giNEgFHetiKi1FM+5BWf3S3HCMl3E5TI2 wVGDkVYki6dvXo3XM1cgbhf3ofvrQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudejvddgudegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihht hhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh eqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehrfhgtqdgvughithhorhdrohhrghenucfkphepuddtkedrvddv uddrudektddrudehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfi horhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C7DF730600CB; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 18:55:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Carsten Bormann Cc: ietf@ietf.org References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <8c144ffb-ca56-4a80-a994-9b8002eac17b@network-heretics.com> <40cb6637-48af-0d27-94d7-9388417c17ba@network-heretics.com> <449e262a-6c7e-4278-812b-c40476af7af0@joelhalpern.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 18:55:41 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <449e262a-6c7e-4278-812b-c40476af7af0@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 23:55:45 -0000 On 11/30/19 6:46 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > It seems that it ought to take a consensus call (here, rfc-interest, > somewhere else?) to change the default output prouced by the IETF > tools.  The question of pagination of output was more contentious than > I would have expected in previous rounds. It appears that having the canonical format of RFCs be a format other than one that people actually use, has "interesting" consequences.   For example, anyone can generate RFCs in their own preferred format, using whatever typeface, pagination, TOC format, references format, etc. they wish, and it's difficult to tell (either by looking or comparison with the copy from the RFC Editor's site) whether such an RFC is genuine. I think it would also be "interesting" if the preferred source for RFCs became a site other than rfc-editor.org.    (Which, for all I know, might already be the case.) Keith From nobody Sat Nov 30 16:16:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE790120129 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 16:16:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gfNBGARG9pB7 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 16:16:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C79FE120047 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 16:16:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:49345 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ibCuJ-0006RH-63; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 16:16:12 -0800 To: Keith Moore , Carsten Bormann References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <8c144ffb-ca56-4a80-a994-9b8002eac17b@network-heretics.com> <40cb6637-48af-0d27-94d7-9388417c17ba@network-heretics.com> Cc: ietf@ietf.org, John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <90db787a-b6f4-6c94-6fd9-b4b62c27583e@levkowetz.com> Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 01:16:02 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <40cb6637-48af-0d27-94d7-9388417c17ba@network-heretics.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="lE8AQ2BSbk02pwQTqDbeNTETOF7FcBrPx" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com, john-ietf@jck.com, ietf@ietf.org, cabo@tzi.org, moore@network-heretics.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 00:16:17 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --lE8AQ2BSbk02pwQTqDbeNTETOF7FcBrPx Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="57q6A01VUkiSXusH1NQOHCRxWmBsw4AJn"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Keith Moore , Carsten Bormann Cc: ietf@ietf.org, John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <90db787a-b6f4-6c94-6fd9-b4b62c27583e@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <8c144ffb-ca56-4a80-a994-9b8002eac17b@network-heretics.com> <40cb6637-48af-0d27-94d7-9388417c17ba@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: <40cb6637-48af-0d27-94d7-9388417c17ba@network-heretics.com> --57q6A01VUkiSXusH1NQOHCRxWmBsw4AJn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Keith, Carsten, On 2019-11-30 23:58, Keith Moore wrote: > On 11/30/19 5:22 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 >> On Nov 30, 2019, at 21:26, Henrik Levkowetz wro= te: >>> If being able to generate paginated text output for published v3 RFC = XML >>> files is desirable, I'm happy to add a switch to do that. >> Please do. >=20 > Yes, please do. Noted. > Though IMO this should be the default. (paginated, not=20 > necessarily including page numbers). Making this the default for RFCs is a decision for the RFC Editor, I beli= eve. Henrik --57q6A01VUkiSXusH1NQOHCRxWmBsw4AJn-- --lE8AQ2BSbk02pwQTqDbeNTETOF7FcBrPx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl3jBkIACgkQTptXS4+7 FxpE2A//d3Hh8+SQ7w/wFHwrdgzHryVqwUU3Yn/YS4vRYb6U1WM6s7TtRUfERDyD VtRdLP8TCEglwnjANSdh79s8/vLJmDurJnN+OfRAu2mF+la88oj2TJrhBbpyLXt5 xVZ02jYRY3SELy7woSI803KiuddXsHxbCxO5fv4veNt80dQIJ4hob2ceghRObfkn B8fdJF7DrR6NFktxA7QYwA5vc26QXR/4zGyt2DBYbaw0ZD4LnOXylVflPlcoc8oB jz0tWXssNpYoCi/w3kHqhZCX/9QaLDAOhxlar0+nY7irpY/maHd+CTWnofxE06X9 73a1+wdwqy0Z2qcyI6sdkW/hLdmhD4/c95aA5N55q5M5ZHmTCJs8STAAuf3GxGiR Faoh+fqloOkTLa5diyr5zVEx8+p7kaBn1/5J7Kn3RoYk4fUoPeGIpOKgOU5lrfd5 ieOH4waR+KcXz7007K6tKqBWYbZTUw+GXTI/EcM3NHc85Bp/Q3VeOuolul92JFLO NoHNycLGMALpFKRwQBmjvkLIkX8m1QaGWvLtzcm3fMauWG+e6y3HJUJQqgolstrm WRxSasb6KGuG+s6pVVKN1zFOaLCTRhD5KhpjRgTyPxDXIGH35FjgRyfnb47CcsI7 vdoMGguaGKdLREhVi3aU2efq6KSlguXzYf2M8x3dGdi1ihG7ML4= =tJEX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --lE8AQ2BSbk02pwQTqDbeNTETOF7FcBrPx-- From nobody Sat Nov 30 17:24:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44C9120834 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 17:24:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=Y8oXtGTT; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=H4nhI3Nb Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ni7riHOs4jrH for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 17:24:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C3A712082F for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 17:24:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 41851 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2019 01:24:49 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=a377.5de31661.k1911; i=printer-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=rplKa2Z+V7cLt9I7SW23blJX54AFTPPOR2RIB6tU2VA=; b=Y8oXtGTTcoN/4lLJFjPcRpsx4YwPbvrclTk6Qpvp8kdJijno7+mVRRCHJmD9RdXmOOtUAfRvsTJRMee+ZoayxvL+n6IXOGJwUueY7HAfw34WZ0BQTuOC3ClqQgVWgmW13whpnsL1SPr590enRSOaMdE2U196Wyx+tSb9Yp9TUGa2gPKtBgJ2xUsgS/LhP62fCP9LKt8fajZaOXnHXkpILA+EDXdHSIUcRzPd16W0ZDlrWRy6BfFsu7p4FHxvlHep DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=a377.5de31661.k1911; olt=printer-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=rplKa2Z+V7cLt9I7SW23blJX54AFTPPOR2RIB6tU2VA=; b=H4nhI3Nbbck3QH21hAsjvpOe/B8ANG0WCCW/NmzmhFPq1Pm8peRBVykNmjXKjkf262ZvkM9iVCWHhHLh78SqR/QL5WuP4oxk3WyY3gtUmEYFT4/rKFrywNg6zN5IKGasc3DU6Azp99o/7dZ0t8EgbUeykGe0kHvkNIpOEcwhfKD07VHGROhOx5faSw4n8xzPgjnP5MYhPdC36+848p82V7HnL+WlEP9IeyGO6UB+JNVFCOOoXIiub0nWs570SA+e Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, printer@iecc.com) via TCP6; 01 Dec 2019 01:24:49 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1FA60FF1ABE; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 20:24:48 -0500 (EST) Date: 30 Nov 2019 20:24:48 -0500 Message-Id: <20191201012449.1FA60FF1ABE@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: ietf@ietf.org Cc: moore@network-heretics.com Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 01:24:53 -0000 In article you write: >It appears that having the canonical format of RFCs be a format other >than one that people actually use, has "interesting" consequences.   For >example, anyone can generate RFCs in their own preferred format, using >whatever typeface, pagination, TOC format, references format, etc. they >wish, That's a feature. If you don't like the format, you can pick another. If you don't like any of the existing formats, you can write or adapt tools to create any format you want. If, say, you want line printer pages for A4 paper, you can have them. >and it's difficult to tell (either by looking or comparison with >the copy from the RFC Editor's site) whether such an RFC is genuine. Aw, c'mon. If that's a problem, take the canonical XML and run it through your favorite formatter yourself to get a fresh authentic copy. >I think it would also be "interesting" if the preferred source for RFCs >became a site other than rfc-editor.org.    (Which, for all I know, >might already be the case.) If you google an RFC number you'll generally find links to tools.ietf.org and datatracker.ietf.org ahead of rfc-editor.org, which has been the case for a long time. R's, John From nobody Sat Nov 30 17:49:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91318120835 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 17:49:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qy-FYW-okXW0 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 17:49:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBC5412082D for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 17:49:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id F102B6E2; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 20:49:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 30 Nov 2019 20:49:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=x/r3zLfWf4nu5RhAIC6AFELev1JL9X+h/6lAoccSB MM=; b=Suk+B4rOlhZf76TZffhU0+T4NuzB18T9ffuKivV4DPkd2pu+pMxT/+BVF i6AbMXWksciyFAmldRPmKMEzl/aXNVCqziH2Xck1EPZ93fReR508zW/8rSbgt/Ib IdAneq38g1o/CQSNEUKppObK9hOHHsKmVEYCKAwYUhp6BWxl7G6OeZjiLq9h2kRP KQPytAyqOmo/hdvydzAvX7CmvRDxIdAmn/mwZ6fMEVCuolIj/OqO7QNmslooVzgz pAQQMlTcjjniseffdgAAklKshVwpAA4FGGR0ezhzy11KW8KkgUrytV8dGIveaNS/ Ys4/keCUy6pu/x0AK2UUQvRvlXMfA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudejvddgfeelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihht hhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh eqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehrfhgtqdgvughithhorhdrohhrghenucfkphepuddtkedrvddv uddrudektddrudehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfi horhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 844AB30600AD; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 20:49:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting To: John Levine , ietf@ietf.org References: <20191201012449.1FA60FF1ABE@ary.qy> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <2ea342a3-5969-f097-e178-b50e9181261f@network-heretics.com> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 20:49:05 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20191201012449.1FA60FF1ABE@ary.qy> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 01:49:11 -0000 On 11/30/19 8:24 PM, John Levine wrote: > In article you write: >> It appears that having the canonical format of RFCs be a format other >> than one that people actually use, has "interesting" consequences.   For >> example, anyone can generate RFCs in their own preferred format, using >> whatever typeface, pagination, TOC format, references format, etc. they >> wish, > That's a feature. If you don't like the format, you can pick another. > If you don't like any of the existing formats, you can write or adapt > tools to create any format you want. If, say, you want line printer > pages for A4 paper, you can have them. In some ways I agree that it is a feature.   But it may also bring some undesirable consequences with it. >> and it's difficult to tell (either by looking or comparison with >> the copy from the RFC Editor's site) whether such an RFC is genuine. > Aw, c'mon. If that's a problem, take the canonical XML and run it through > your favorite formatter yourself to get a fresh authentic copy. On several occasions I've been asked to verify the authenticity of old documents (including some Usenet posts, some RFCs, and some academic papers) for patent litigation purposes.   Sometimes what I've been asked to do is verify a document that has already been used as an exhibit in a prior filing, so it's important that the version of the document that was used in the exhibit be verified.   If the exhibit was of a plain text RFC, it's pretty easy to do - download the same plain text RFC from rfc-editor.org, verify its date (say using FTP to the file server, and perhaps via other means, like an archived email announcement that was sent concurrent with RFC publication), and optically compare the two documents. But on several occasions when I've been asked to do this, the exhibit was printed-out HTML and the document that could be readily authenticated (the one that the HTML was derived from) was in a different format.   It can be tricky to explain the differences in a way that is convincing to a jury. I may be more sensitive to this issue than some because I've had to do this several times in 2019.    But having the old canonical format for RFCs also be the one that was most widely read, was indeed a feature. Keith From nobody Sat Nov 30 18:33:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C4A1120047 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 18:33:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id efrTuuMUEtIs for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 18:33:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07FFE120024 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 18:33:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ibF2k-000LlW-KV; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 21:33:02 -0500 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 21:32:57 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Keith Moore , Carsten Bormann cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Message-ID: <161FDFC81FC520658407B2C6@PSB> In-Reply-To: <449e262a-6c7e-4278-812b-c40476af7af0@joelhalpern.com> References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <8c144ffb-ca56-4a80-a994-9b8002eac17b@network-heretics.com> <40cb6637-48af-0d27-94d7-9388417c17ba@network-heretics.com> <449e262a-6c7e-4278-812b-c40476af7af0@joelhalpern.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 02:33:12 -0000 Joel, FWIW, I think that measuring consensus on rfc-interest and assuming that represented consensus of RFC users, and others dependent on them, or even that of the IETF, may be what got us into this mess. =20 john\ --On Saturday, November 30, 2019 18:46 -0500 "Joel M. Halpern" wrote: > It seems that it ought to take a consensus call (here, > rfc-interest, somewhere else?) to change the default output > prouced by the IETF tools. The question of pagination of > output was more contentious than I would have expected in > previous rounds. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/30/2019 5:58 PM, Keith Moore wrote: >> On 11/30/19 5:22 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>=20 >>> On Nov 30, 2019, at 21:26, Henrik >>> Levkowetz wrote: >>>> If being able to generate paginated text output for >>>> published v3 RFC XML files is desirable, I'm happy to add a >>>> switch to do that. >>> Please do. >>=20 >> Yes, please do.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Though IMO this should be the = default. >> (paginated, not necessarily including page numbers). >>=20 >> Keith >>=20 >>=20 >=20 From nobody Sat Nov 30 19:12:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4E112081E for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 19:12:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3KBatxA3TEE1 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 19:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BC97120838 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 19:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47QYFd1s9jz6G8CW; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 19:12:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1575169941; bh=RqMa9hn8egIzoemLCJP7/25MK3pYDzv1D1QYcJ+it38=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=CD3W/F6XrDZkvEu+PZ+eIImZ65Xx6J8lYc3H3u7EZbcpwzXPVlRzWeEAdwCyyF451 vo5eOyZV5fzavPD/VuB8eYhXP0OLP+TxcUb+tKQXfge6NFBUV45aQ4EFzcUFJACSi8 p/4/XY4lKwBToNlMWMr1vRWb2DdZx9K1y7XP7oT4= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 47QYFb4fJWz6G7tt; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 19:12:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting To: John C Klensin Cc: ietf@ietf.org References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <8c144ffb-ca56-4a80-a994-9b8002eac17b@network-heretics.com> <40cb6637-48af-0d27-94d7-9388417c17ba@network-heretics.com> <449e262a-6c7e-4278-812b-c40476af7af0@joelhalpern.com> <161FDFC81FC520658407B2C6@PSB> From: Joel Halpern Direct Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 22:12:17 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <161FDFC81FC520658407B2C6@PSB> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 03:12:23 -0000 That (the suggestions that RFC-interest is the wrong place to judge such things) may be, which is why I listed alternatives. But just saying that two people liked the idea, and no one screamed, in one day, is clearly NOT enough to change the default. Yours, Joel On 11/30/2019 9:32 PM, John C Klensin wrote: > Joel, > > FWIW, I think that measuring consensus on rfc-interest and > assuming that represented consensus of RFC users, and others > dependent on them, or even that of the IETF, may be what got us > into this mess. > > john\ > > --On Saturday, November 30, 2019 18:46 -0500 "Joel M. Halpern" > wrote: > >> It seems that it ought to take a consensus call (here, >> rfc-interest, somewhere else?) to change the default output >> prouced by the IETF tools. The question of pagination of >> output was more contentious than I would have expected in >> previous rounds. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 11/30/2019 5:58 PM, Keith Moore wrote: >>> On 11/30/19 5:22 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2019, at 21:26, Henrik >>>> Levkowetz wrote: >>>>> If being able to generate paginated text output for >>>>> published v3 RFC XML files is desirable, I'm happy to add a >>>>> switch to do that. >>>> Please do. >>> >>> Yes, please do.   Though IMO this should be the default. >>> (paginated, not necessarily including page numbers). >>> >>> Keith >>> >>> >> > > From nobody Sat Nov 30 19:59:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51E8C12081E for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 19:59:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id to5jwF5EmTx2 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 19:59:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-f174.google.com (mail-oi1-f174.google.com [209.85.167.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2770120041 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 19:59:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-f174.google.com with SMTP id 6so4211423oix.7 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 19:59:32 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fdgoqspd1dD9Gk3WVCaxsCXPphKG0feOz/5lEOxniTg=; b=ZlD4sXM4eNWYDOdp/jtxBhHynTzFxlNVjyYQWC1aSFOWq1QebHeNl8xMb4U1j/737S iz5nnoUWrDxAq8R+lklv1zz10nr8SFkv8YjMTAtxTg4NOFY9Rf3a0f3Geniemlebmkk0 gF6Tl28kgyI3ZVeIiMilcUBWw/IkdSSmAoNVthz7oIthB1eZYYzMS04N0nnisbovvkm+ 6jK708OEWI0cgtVAh6WboKJJ/mJiZp9/rbPTTpWf4WKOjtm+77taqz/E518fHy3Tlx9d HrnPgfEesDb3CUAf3rAJu6t5jxBawxd85zQYkMBhg661O23/vBe53PNtW0QkXLBnQjwf vNzw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUt4LPJS++sxiBJi/IMTsnF4PZEb90Q6vfvVAGirn0ygD2sXsxO mViw/rDdOAJkSn2BiOPipbOhmN8BAC/mynzflP0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwB+pDjEV8McODup1+HKzTzL85gitaxXcy0uCjt/rCEe2fRInXu9sREtSr27CWvYwUCt8p1trqS37ffosuqBBI= X-Received: by 2002:aca:6186:: with SMTP id v128mr7335616oib.17.1575172772058; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 19:59:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <8c144ffb-ca56-4a80-a994-9b8002eac17b@network-heretics.com> <40cb6637-48af-0d27-94d7-9388417c17ba@network-heretics.com> <449e262a-6c7e-4278-812b-c40476af7af0@joelhalpern.com> <161FDFC81FC520658407B2C6@PSB> In-Reply-To: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 22:59:20 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting To: Joel Halpern Direct Cc: John C Klensin , IETF Discussion Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000089dcba05989c7d2f" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 03:59:34 -0000 --00000000000089dcba05989c7d2f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 10:12 PM Joel Halpern Direct < jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com> wrote: > That (the suggestions that RFC-interest is the wrong place to judge such > things) may be, which is why I listed alternatives. But just saying > that two people liked the idea, and no one screamed, in one day, is > clearly NOT enough to change the default. Quite. The botched pagination of the old plaintext format was one of the main reasons I hated it. The parochial US-centric design ensures that it only works reliably on US paper which is only used in North America. So for years, I would have to make multiple attempts at tweaking page lengths on printers to get RFCs to print out right. And after a while, I gave up, and wrote myself a PERL script to convert them to HTML and those are the docs I worked from all the time I was at the Web consortium and then at VRSN until xml2rfc appeared with a HTML output. I have never used the plaintext format. I have always regarded it as garbage. This is a technology business. If we are going to get nostalgic about stuff, perhaps we should start with all the newspaper people, shopworkers, etc. etc. we put out of work. It seems rather incongruous and not a little self-indulgent to find the vanguard of the digerati waxing nostalgic over emulating 1960s line printer formats while they are merrily shredding the fabric of the old economic order for everyone else. What does concern me with the current state of affairs is that we have HTML output of RFCs but not yet of IDs it would seem. --00000000000089dcba05989c7d2f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 10:12 PM Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>= ; wrote:
That (the suggestions that RFC-interest is the wr= ong place to judge such
things) may be, which is why I listed alternatives.=C2=A0 But just saying <= br> that two people liked the idea, and no one screamed, in one day, is
clearly NOT enough to change the default.

Quite. The botched paginat= ion of the old plaintext format was one of the main reasons I hated it. The= parochial=C2=A0US-centric design ensures that it only works reliably on US= paper which is only used in North America.

So for years, I would have to make multiple attempts a= t tweaking page lengths on printers=C2=A0to get RFCs to print out right. An= d after a while, I gave up, and wrote myself a PERL script to convert them = to HTML and those are the docs I worked from all the time I was at the Web = consortium and then at VRSN until xml2rfc appeared with a HTML output.=C2= =A0

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">I have never used the= plaintext format. I have always regarded it as garbage. This is a technolo= gy business. If we are going to get nostalgic about stuff, perhaps we shoul= d start with all the newspaper people, shopworkers, etc. etc. we put out of= work. It seems rather incongruous and not a little self-indulgent to find = the vanguard of the digerati waxing nostalgic over emulating 1960s line pri= nter formats while they are merrily shredding the fabric of the old economi= c order for everyone else.


What doe= s concern me with the current state of affairs is that we have HTML output = of RFCs but not yet of IDs it would seem.=C2=A0
--00000000000089dcba05989c7d2f--
Are the slides from Pecha Kucha available?=C2=A0 Thanks!
On= Sat, Nov 16, 2019 at 9:17 PM Aaron Falk <aaron.falk@gmail.com> wrote:

Four talks proposed to date. Would love to see a few more = presenters.

On 13 Nov 2019, at 3:43, Aaron Falk wrote:

Still looking for a few more presenters for next Thursday n= ight...

This is a call for participation in a social event around s= atirical short talks. (There is usually beer involved.) In the past, talk= s needed to fit the PechaKucha format but it is rather strict (20 slides, e= ach on screen for 20 seconds, minimal text). So, I=E2=80=99d like to repea= t the experiment we tried in Montreal. Any talk format will be allowed (in= cluding PK) with a maximum length of 7 minutes. As before, the topics are = encouraged to be a IETF-related and satirical or controversial in some way,= although not mean-spirited. Anyone can participate in this unofficial soc= ial event.

Date: Thursday evening (November 21) starting at 9:30pm in = Sophia.

If you haven=E2=80=99t been to one of these events, Here ar= e two of my personal favorites from prior IETFs by Pete and Brian= . Video from the past BA PKs can be found here= .

If you want to do a pechakucha, there are lots of online tu= torials and suggestions for how to make a good PechaKucha. Here are a few:= [1], [2], [3].

As my friend Spencer says: =E2=80=9CMake good decisions, Pe= ople!=E2=80=9D

Format Details:
--
106attendees mailing list
106attendees@iet= f.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/106attendees=
--000000000000c9354505984420bf-- From nobody Tue Nov 26 13:08:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B46A6120ADB; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:08:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c_3r965NaxFu; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:08:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from puck.nether.net (puck.nether.net [IPv6:2001:418:3f4::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C263120AD9; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:08:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.129] (c-68-40-189-22.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [68.40.189.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by puck.nether.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 996E45400AF; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 16:08:01 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) Subject: Re: [106attendees] Let's have some fun: PechaKucha & friends From: Jared Mauch In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 16:08:00 -0500 Cc: Aaron Falk , IRTF Discuss , IETF WG Chairs , IETF Discussion , 106 attendees <106attendees@ietf.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <93C85F33-54A6-4AC6-B251-C3234140E2E9@gmail.com> To: ryan stephenson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3601.0.10) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 21:08:05 -0000 Usually only the videos have been posted in the past. - jared > On Nov 26, 2019, at 1:34 PM, ryan stephenson = wrote: >=20 > Are the slides from Pecha Kucha available? Thanks! >=20 > On Sat, Nov 16, 2019 at 9:17 PM Aaron Falk = wrote: > Four talks proposed to date. Would love to see a few more presenters. >=20 > On 13 Nov 2019, at 3:43, Aaron Falk wrote: >=20 > Still looking for a few more presenters for next Thursday night... >=20 > This is a call for participation in a social event around satirical = short talks. (There is usually beer involved.) In the past, talks needed = to fit the PechaKucha format but it is rather strict (20 slides, each on = screen for 20 seconds, minimal text). So, I=E2=80=99d like to repeat the = experiment we tried in Montreal. Any talk format will be allowed = (including PK) with a maximum length of 7 minutes. As before, the topics = are encouraged to be a IETF-related and satirical or controversial in = some way, although not mean-spirited. Anyone can participate in this = unofficial social event. >=20 > Date: Thursday evening (November 21) starting at 9:30pm in Sophia. >=20 > If you haven=E2=80=99t been to one of these events, Here are two of my = personal favorites from prior IETFs by Pete and Brian. Video from the = past BA PKs can be found here.. >=20 > If you want to do a pechakucha, there are lots of online tutorials and = suggestions for how to make a good PechaKucha. Here are a few: [1], [2], = [3]. >=20 > As my friend Spencer says: =E2=80=9CMake good decisions, People!=E2=80=9D= >=20 > Format Details: >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Presentation slots are open to all, assigned first = come, first served. > =E2=80=A2 To reserve a presentation slot, send a name and title = to aaron.falk@gmail.com and receive confirmation. > =E2=80=A2 Presenters must agree to limit their talks to less = than 7 minutes (strictly enforced using the Lars Eggert Approach). > =E2=80=A2 Slides are due Thursday 6pm in Powerpoint or PDF. > --=20 > 106attendees mailing list > 106attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/106attendees > --=20 > 106attendees mailing list > 106attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/106attendees From nobody Tue Nov 26 13:43:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AC82120AEA for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:43:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=R7z41Jds; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=LHlT1uPG Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6NPvo5BW7my1 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:43:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EC88120ADC for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:43:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 11504 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2019 21:43:01 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=2cee.5ddd9c65.k1911; i=printer-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=jCK640A13JO9YWritPp2MjSBuZBpMxPex7VLVYOX1Z0=; b=R7z41JdsfsgACMy4li4b0/UmyuhuGwRoIptEGt5ET6cqnw3V3VVA+VOiEwaI6f3WeN2zxKynMlLEG0WujrMFF+C5VTJhQBqXy+VrpS3ciGkwPRlr01llGUSxk2qx/RcMzKsHwzRTDA/sr2BNEWeXgvnUCHGU1hCach19uQ99l5K4ws2kqeufGAkgOZ9NJPPN8VBwxzFV7tiKbjPvX2k3s2CNzKeVc1MRlKJawNf7gbT2kWfYwrhkwklgyZhOe+sB DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=2cee.5ddd9c65.k1911; olt=printer-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=jCK640A13JO9YWritPp2MjSBuZBpMxPex7VLVYOX1Z0=; b=LHlT1uPGJyK+fFX8hXNhdLxPlp061sofTu0Vn84mJJ0rXo7zM3uZWta4pLklR0zGIVS0TeRZOPXrGQZ7oRy9dTinyoMWeK4NdRnzbSIcB4Oygq+aQn6ZxtbWhgWox9VZiJ6gegeoaJWj71wGryw3IxV8OYOdGDuBP5lJI/qArsAAvt6V33qHUwjRZaXET7CqYUDl9u7etsj2VzNJPONtOLysedAssax+mAWxX2VSlitVap/m70oUm9JzeSo8Ep6b Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, printer@iecc.com) via TCP6; 26 Nov 2019 21:43:01 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id CDE2AFCE010; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 16:43:00 -0500 (EST) Date: 26 Nov 2019 16:43:00 -0500 Message-Id: <20191126214300.CDE2AFCE010@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: ietf@ietf.org Cc: moore@network-heretics.com Subject: Re: On IETF support (was Re: Important Announcement from the Internet Society and Public Interest Registry) In-Reply-To: <83dcf36b-dcdc-f591-fee5-70249a05ace6@network-heretics.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 21:43:04 -0000 In article <83dcf36b-dcdc-f591-fee5-70249a05ace6@network-heretics.com> you write: >Should you really have to join ISOC just to discuss a subject of >significant importance to the Internet community? If by the Internet community you mean Internet users, about 0.1% of them are .org registrants and other 99.9% are not. The arguments on the internet-policy list have entirely been about the sale's purported effects on .org registrants. When Andrew said that the PIR deal will have no effect on ISOC's support of the IETF, he meant it. I was there when we approved the sale, I know the numbers, I know he's right. If any topic of interest to 0.1% of Internet users is fair game here, we're going to have an awfully chatty list. R's, John PS: From nobody Tue Nov 26 14:24:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 058AD120AFA for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:24:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IpmReqeMWYiw for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:24:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1A6A12091B for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:24:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 009D373F; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 17:24:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 26 Nov 2019 17:24:02 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=xZ9XILiasseO8kO9wkjmuSBFkKt/VMCFyO+7X7Zf3 DA=; b=sFIqeCa9KVgyMMAt9hBRxeio3fR75y1y6qg3mxiJ6dXIoIS1EeK483hfM aG44fwCd5k2t78xUMeAJhTnyqhDkti9op2qZrfSnc/xrPVutbZCJ0jKLMh0CKuaq vR+Bc0+M24PFlxlb+SZr1BmD+5AlqU/pZiBD/zmFDe0RYocB4LwpEWTcOxhJhZVr zYhnENEVubx/6Ip+m6T+rccbeLTQ4jzaqXXfuQ7zbWlUZPh/7PA9EhjIMuHZdsBl cQpU2k+WfvRSKvXDQ6qfkKbR7lmopEed7uBWFPBl0XFpaz70WyRhQh2xqFYMS/Dl DgYLKkurj2RATTzFagBIcmySGh7pw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudeifedgudeifecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtkeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghi thhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtoh hmqeenucffohhmrghinhepohhnrdhorhhgpdhofhdrohhrghdprghrvgdrohhrghenucfk phepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrudehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmoh horhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhi iigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 2A6B3306005E; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 17:24:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: On IETF support (was Re: Important Announcement from the Internet Society and Public Interest Registry) To: John Levine , ietf@ietf.org References: <20191126214300.CDE2AFCE010@ary.qy> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <3dd96c89-d65a-27f0-4ca0-eab63dbdb346@network-heretics.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 17:23:59 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20191126214300.CDE2AFCE010@ary.qy> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 22:24:06 -0000 On 11/26/19 4:43 PM, John Levine wrote: > In article <83dcf36b-dcdc-f591-fee5-70249a05ace6@network-heretics.com> you write: >> Should you really have to join ISOC just to discuss a subject of >> significant importance to the Internet community? > If by the Internet community you mean Internet users, about 0.1% of > them are .org registrants and other 99.9% are not. The arguments on > the internet-policy list have entirely been about the sale's purported > effects on .org registrants. When Andrew said that the PIR deal will > have no effect on ISOC's support of the IETF, he meant it. I was > there when we approved the sale, I know the numbers, I know he's > right. It's not just holders of .org domains who are affected.   The existence of a not-for-profit registry holding a well known TLD put pressure on other TLD registries to limit prices and (to some small degree) moderate their predatory behaviors. I accept that ISOC's support of IETF probably won't change much if at all, but it's not as if monetary support of IETF is the only issue we need to know and care about. As in-person participation at IETF meetings is waning for a variety of reasons, the extended worldwide IETF community needs a common way to discuss matters of broad importance.   Maybe there should be a separate list ("ietf-talk"?) for such discussions, but I believe that suppression of discussion of Internet-related matters within IETF (which does seem to be an increasing trend) ultimately does harm to IETF's relevance.   And as far as I can tell, IETF is and has been the list on which such matters have traditionally been discussed.   The actions of ICANN and internet registries do influence technical choices that IETF makes, and technical choices that have been made by IETF were made based on assumptions of how ICANN and the registries would function. Keith p.s. And just for completeness, percentage of usage is almost never a valid proxy for importance. From nobody Tue Nov 26 14:44:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F59B120AFA for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:44:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id atgYzsvdZvNx for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:44:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C879E120058 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:44:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47MzVc5GlCz2dM40; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:44:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1574808280; bh=mEDO8dkBDvskUZ0Yb+0MDY4HAmOYV1wx6kQporcXt0Q=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=KyW1/ZuaeoFc2cNwl2Vd7DSd7O/Z05xc+c5+yBd7L7Ve3CKHLW3gicUpVJ+O4yE4T lDTQl9mJcV3VuzA+GC4n4izKev6KLGyvT9fuH+2kEqeUUTh1+sx4fGBSY/D9MN5k37 Z3J3iro4bMcVcjXnVTHrh4rRk35Dm9LSj19pkIRs= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 47MzVc1nQDz2dM5K; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:44:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: On IETF support (was Re: Important Announcement from the Internet Society and Public Interest Registry) To: Keith Moore , ietf@ietf.org References: <20191126214300.CDE2AFCE010@ary.qy> <3dd96c89-d65a-27f0-4ca0-eab63dbdb346@network-heretics.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <3caba16f-3320-2763-4be0-4f5167b496cb@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 17:44:37 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3dd96c89-d65a-27f0-4ca0-eab63dbdb346@network-heretics.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 22:44:42 -0000 That sure sounds like an ICANN topic, not an IETF topic. Yours, Joel On 11/26/2019 5:23 PM, Keith Moore wrote: > On 11/26/19 4:43 PM, John Levine wrote: > >> In article <83dcf36b-dcdc-f591-fee5-70249a05ace6@network-heretics.com> >> you write: >>> Should you really have to join ISOC just to discuss a subject of >>> significant importance to the Internet community? >> If by the Internet community you mean Internet users, about 0.1% of >> them are .org registrants and other 99.9% are not.  The arguments on >> the internet-policy list have entirely been about the sale's purported >> effects on .org registrants.  When Andrew said that the PIR deal will >> have no effect on ISOC's support of the IETF, he meant it.  I was >> there when we approved the sale, I know the numbers, I know he's >> right. > > It's not just holders of .org domains who are affected.   The existence > of a not-for-profit registry holding a well known TLD put pressure on > other TLD registries to limit prices and (to some small degree) moderate > their predatory behaviors. > > I accept that ISOC's support of IETF probably won't change much if at > all, but it's not as if monetary support of IETF is the only issue we > need to know and care about. > > As in-person participation at IETF meetings is waning for a variety of > reasons, the extended worldwide IETF community needs a common way to > discuss matters of broad importance.   Maybe there should be a separate > list ("ietf-talk"?) for such discussions, but I believe that suppression > of discussion of Internet-related matters within IETF (which does seem > to be an increasing trend) ultimately does harm to IETF's relevance. And > as far as I can tell, IETF is and has been the list on which such > matters have traditionally been discussed.   The actions of ICANN and > internet registries do influence technical choices that IETF makes, and > technical choices that have been made by IETF were made based on > assumptions of how ICANN and the registries would function. > > Keith > > p.s. And just for completeness, percentage of usage is almost never a > valid proxy for importance. > > > From nobody Wed Nov 27 02:59:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30BF0120858 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2019 02:59:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5rSHqNWiXtOk for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2019 02:59:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 318F51200FE for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2019 02:59:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id p12so16989925iog.10 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2019 02:59:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wEFXZBThEdcUJvvbLELkZsXNaDNMyDb81wyfvvSQk6M=; b=Z5/InuBM8fcOcYwz3pBhD3NwGexiCG/xXXvBcZDXSMfh/Ks5BPXoqWFdpOYCHg5j+U bMzIZtOZYEknr6S0YXCqQjUesoBEJlG9IvKBUTp29hrV5WPWNLcHaY2hEzNm21HoK2OF 9BgJ5iXiUKKtL1TgKcJ5B7gvAMUDI5pTac71VrMQeXbOiCXOlPAYZXuV2g3q+5B8nyFl j0AMbfts6dPuV0WLeZlvGp+YsMxnHorHP19O36namEqbpXTdl4CmXNfGm60yjDzIIgyR oWCVF9ZaTKeZdpriguOmfIdegbZF8l3VimbqQmvjqbNC9jgF64+RbURNvx8XhyL3jr/a 6YTA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wEFXZBThEdcUJvvbLELkZsXNaDNMyDb81wyfvvSQk6M=; b=fPSN5OoyUB6REnZVz00u3OOx/+VhGLvTbpFEAg+hmr1B7+W0OFxy4MtIfba3U76yQI 5a5zVSmcipF+HB+7U2isbeXLKwHmQkYzAOL+/N82TXW2LUxMNqcP8FZkayUkDUHyL90V IVnSK2jsg4E7SLOSoqH7iVMG48JkqiO8MicwVU+2K9iEzTZSfgRzNyQXcBy89SGIiMHC kJz0XGMQfd+cHurLVx7QVuFHUg4CmdYsZTMV+Sh7JXlxM0UeLHIjXUO+JCN9wWoQzQM6 p1lJf5zAkhNy7yG1Rp0bPk7Tl0yVGd77fM6jumvUFOCQHtWhcMijkhSAxGrvj1/9HMyx 83Ow== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVnXPEOHbsGT77ECMkQ4Kl35ChP2b+urJzaI9K+TIGEPadeB6gp JBliSbrYnHhb4dWk8AHXhy9twJCDepidxNcFx38= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwn+2jIr3RnKZZqkFYpTXBbwPVAgRZrg4F++/USI0Mw8Im2AMpADnHNP1MYbhCS1beXDjZa8Y2MH7YPJSagaPg= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:9b11:: with SMTP id y17mr19522823ion.73.1574852350390; Wed, 27 Nov 2019 02:59:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191126214300.CDE2AFCE010@ary.qy> <3dd96c89-d65a-27f0-4ca0-eab63dbdb346@network-heretics.com> <3caba16f-3320-2763-4be0-4f5167b496cb@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <3caba16f-3320-2763-4be0-4f5167b496cb@joelhalpern.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 02:58:58 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: On IETF support (was Re: Important Announcement from the Internet Society and Public Interest Registry) To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Keith Moore , IETF discussion list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000eb371c059851e229" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 10:59:13 -0000 --000000000000eb371c059851e229 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 2:45 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > That sure sounds like an ICANN topic, not an IETF topic. Here's one interesting take: "The Sketchy, Sketchy Case Of ICANN Execs And Self-Dealing Regarding The .Org Domain" https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191125/23132643458/sketchy-sketchy-case-icann-execs-self-dealing-regarding-org-domain.shtml thanks, Rob --000000000000eb371c059851e229 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 2:45 PM Joel M. H= alpern <jmh@joe= lhalpern.com> wrote:
That sure sounds li= ke an ICANN topic, not an IETF topic.

Here&= #39;s one interesting take:

"The Sketchy, Ske= tchy Case Of ICANN Execs And Self-Dealing Regarding The .Org Domain"

<= /div>
thanks,
Rob

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Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-nvo3-geneve@ietf.org, NVO3 , nvo3-chairs@ietf.org, IETF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006ec0de0598688462" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 13:59:14 -0000 --0000000000006ec0de0598688462 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello, I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by updating the draft. Document: draft-ietf-nvo3-geneve-14 Reviewer: Tal Mizrahi Review Date: 28-Nov-2019 Intended Status: Standards Track Summary: ======== I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be resolved before publication. Comments: ========= The draft is clear and well-written. Specific comments are provided below. Section 2.2: "The presence of a Geneve variable length header SHOULD NOT prevent the tunnel endpoints and transit devices from using such offload capabilities." - this is purely an implementation consideration, and uppercase requirement language is not appropriate. Section 3.4: "Transit devices MUST maintain consistent forwarding behavior irrespective of the value of 'Opt Len', including ECMP link selection. These devices SHOULD be able to forward packets containing options without resorting to a slow path." The first sentence makes sense, but the second sentence is implementation-specific. Given the first sentence, I would recommend to remove the second sentence. Section 3.5: OLD: for standardized and experimental options NEW: for allocated and for experimental options Explanation: the word "standardized" is misleading, because the document is requesting an "IETF Review" allocation policy. Section 3.5.1: I could not find a specification of what a receiving endpoint should do if the total length of the Geneve header + options exceeds its processing depth. Drop? Notify the peer tunnel endpoint? Section 4.2: "Geneve MUST be used with congestion controlled traffic or within a network that is traffic managed to avoid congestion (TMCE)" - the MUST does not seem appropriate. It is up to the operator whether congestion control is required or not. Section 4.6: This section should be rephrased. This section currently defines how hardware offloading in NICs should be implemented, including MUST requirements. A network protocol should not define requirements for specific implementation approaches. Instead, the section should describe what is expected from ANY intermediate node in the network (switch, router, or hardware component along the path) to do or not do (for example not to change the order of Geneve options). Section 5: - I suggest to remove this section, or to significantly revise it. As opposed to its title, it does not discuss interoperability, but migration from other tunnel protocols to Geneve. - The following sentences are inaccurate: "Geneve does not introduce any interoperability issues as it appears to most devices as UDP packets.", and "Geneve is a superset of the functionality of the most common protocols used for network virtualization (VXLAN,NVGRE)" - It appears that removing this section would not remove significant information. Section 7: OLD: are to be reserved for standardized options for allocation by IETF Review NEW: are to be assigned by the IETF Review policy Explanation: This sentence is confusing, since "Standards Action" and "IETF Review" are two different IANA policies. Section 1: Currently section 1.1 starts a whole page after section 1 starts. I suggest to separate the Requirement Language and the Terminology from the Introduction (two different sections). References: IEEE.802.1Q_2014 is not the latest version of 802.1Q. Cheers, Tal Mizrahi. --0000000000006ec0de0598688462 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,

I have been selecte= d as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directora= te seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as they pass throu= gh IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The pu= rpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more i= nformation about the Routing Directorate, please see http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/= rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for t= he use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them a= long with any other IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to= resolve them through discussion or by updating the draft.

Document:= draft-ietf-nvo3-geneve-14
Reviewer: Tal Mizrahi
Review Date: 28-Nov-= 2019
Intended Status: Standards Track


Summary:
=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
I have some minor concerns about this document that I th= ink should be resolved before publication.


Comments:
=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The draft is clear and well-written.=C2=A0
Specific comments are provided below.
<= br>Section 2.2:
"The presence of a Geneve variable length header SH= OULD NOT prevent the tunnel endpoints and transit devices from using such o= ffload capabilities." - this is purely an implementation consideration= , and uppercase requirement language is not appropriate.

Section 3.4= :
=C2=A0 "Transit devices MUST maintain consistent forwarding behav= ior
=C2=A0 =C2=A0irrespective of the value of 'Opt Len', includi= ng ECMP link
=C2=A0 =C2=A0selection.=C2=A0 These devices SHOULD be able = to forward packets
=C2=A0 =C2=A0containing options without resorting to = a slow path."
The first sentence makes sense, but the second senten= ce is implementation-specific. Given the first sentence, I would recommend = to remove the second sentence.

Section 3.5:
OLD:
for standard= ized and experimental options
NEW:
for allocated and for experimental= options
Explanation:
the word "standardized" is misleading= , because the document is requesting an "IETF Review" allocation = policy.

Section 3.5.1:
I could not find a specification of what a= receiving endpoint should do if the total length of the Geneve header + op= tions exceeds its processing depth. Drop? Notify the peer tunnel endpoint?<= br>
Section 4.2:
"Geneve MUST be used with congestion controlled= traffic or within a network that is traffic managed to avoid congestion (T= MCE)" - the MUST does not seem appropriate. It is up to the operator w= hether congestion control is required or not.

Section 4.6:
This s= ection should be rephrased. This section currently defines how hardware off= loading in NICs should be implemented, including MUST requirements. A netwo= rk protocol should not define requirements for specific implementation appr= oaches. Instead, the section should describe what is expected from ANY inte= rmediate node in the network (switch, router, or hardware component along t= he path) to do or not do (for example not to change the order of Geneve opt= ions).

Section 5:
- I suggest to remove this section, or to signi= ficantly revise it. As opposed to its title, it does not discuss interopera= bility, but migration from other tunnel protocols to Geneve.
- The foll= owing sentences are inaccurate: "Geneve does not introduce any interop= erability issues as it appears to most devices as UDP packets.", and &= quot;Geneve is a superset of the functionality of the most common protocols= used for network virtualization (VXLAN,NVGRE)"
- It appears that r= emoving this section would not remove significant information. =C2=A0
Section 7:
OLD:
are to be reserved for standardized options for all= ocation by IETF Review
NEW:
are to be assigned by the IETF Review po= licy
Explanation:
This sentence is confusing, since "Standards = Action" and "IETF Review" are two different IANA policies.
Section 1:
Currently section 1.1 starts a whole page after section= 1 starts. I suggest to separate the Requirement Language and the Terminolo= gy from the Introduction (two different sections).

References:
IE= EE.802.1Q_2014 is not the latest version of 802.1Q.

Cheer= s,
Tal Mizrahi.
--0000000000006ec0de0598688462-- From nobody Thu Nov 28 08:33:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 028AA12089D; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 08:33:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4ClKjM3LKWu5; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 08:33:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05D79120859; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 08:33:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1iaMj5-000DLQ-9b; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:33:07 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:33:01 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Steffen Nurpmeso , ietf@ietf.org cc: art@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Message-ID: <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> In-Reply-To: <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 16:33:12 -0000 (copying the IETF list -- this is not an ART matter alone) TL;DL warning: while not terribly long, this is a rant. --On Thursday, November 28, 2019 01:50 +0100 Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: >... > Yah, hm, hm. It surely has merits, both HTML as well as PDF. > I have a local RFC pool since, pooh, maybe 2003 or so. The > german computer magazine c't once put all (?) of them on one > of their CDs by then, and i am only throwing onto that stock > ever since. I personally am almost perfectly served with plain > grep(1) on plain text. Actually i do not even really care > about missing form feeds, i was only surprised. Hi. I realize it is very late, probably too late, to be complaining about this, but my clear recollection was that, when the v3 project was started, the community was promised that, while the authoritative/ canonical/ archival format would shift to the XML and fully-functional HTML and PDF format (not just HTML and PDF produced from plain text forms) would become available, the plain text format would be preserved sufficiently that tools [1] that were designed for, and used with, RFCs for the last 40-odd years would continue to work and work equally well [2]. If page breaks, running headers and footers, and TOCs and indices with page references have disappeared, some of those tools will cease working (even if grep still does) and that violates that particular commitment. If there were an xml2rfc v3 option that was guaranteed to be supported and that would generate the older format, even if that format were never stored on IETF servers, I think that would be sufficient to let us (and our tools) keep working, but that does not seem to be the case at present (nor does it address any TOC or index issues).[3] This is especially important because at least some of us who prefer the text form when working with RFCs (even if some of us might prefer something else for reading them), after losing the argument about whether XML (or any other generic or formatting markup arrangement) was appropriate as the canonical/archival form essentially tuned out of the discussions of xml2rfc v3 details and decided to devote our available IETF time to technical standards and other work that we felt had impact on the Internet rather than just on the IETF and how it operated. The tuning out was reinforced as it became clear that xml2rfc v3 was evolving into a odd hybrid between generic and formatting markup, one that was as or more likely to share the disadvantage of each rather than the advantages and that, in terms we use when talking about networking, raises all of the issues of layer violations. So we didn't read the reports and documents carefully; we just assumed that, as long as the plain text format was stable (pagination and all), we would continue to be able to work without having to spend time converting habits and tools. Perhaps what all of this means is that I (and a few others) are just old and stuck in our ways and that the IETF would be better off if we just retired or otherwise moved on. The "old" part is certainly true for some of us but I'm not convinced about the "better off" part. However, by requiring us to develop new tools or learn new tricks, this change may have the effect of raising the bar for effective participation in the IETF enough to push us out. That is especially likely when we need to review and revise older documents. Personally, I think that pushing anyone out who is willing to do work and might have useful contributions to make is a bad idea. So, even if it is too late to reconsider these decisions, I hope we can at least be aware of possible negative side effects. best, john [1] The concern is about user-developed tools, used by one person or a cluster of people who have shared them, not ones developed or maintained under IETF auspices. [2] Reading RFC 7994 only after these changes were identified, I find that Sections 4.1ff remove headers and footers and the page numbers from the TOC. But the introductory paragraph of Section 4 does say "One plain-text output will be created during the publication process with basic pagination that includes a form feed instruction every 58 lines at most, including blank lines." So perhaps that omission is a bug. [3] The last argument for removing pagination in Section 2.1.3 of RFC 6949 is almost completely bogus. The problems with unbroken sections that span several pages, including difficulties with references to material in those sections, was noticed not long after RFC 1543 was published with its specific comments about cross-references to sections and not pages, IIR much earlier. There was discussion even before then about insisting on numbered paragraphs, an idea that was abandoned in large measure because of difficulties with document preparation and tooling. For some years, the RFC Editor pushed back aggressively or (or simply modified) such very long sections, especially when there were cross-references to them (by either section number or page number). Later, for reasons unrelated to this rant, the pushback became much less frequent. The problem is over-long sections; the solution is to manage RFC Style decisions (during final editing if not earlier) so that they don't happen, not to pretend that eliminating page numbers will eliminate those sections by precluding the possibility of using page number for more granular references. From nobody Thu Nov 28 08:59:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8124912085C; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 08:59:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tWyAzUGcwSDF; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 08:59:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D2CB120836; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 08:59:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from client-0012.vpn.uni-bremen.de (client-0012.vpn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.107.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 47P3lf3pszzypK; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 17:59:42 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 17:59:43 +0100 Cc: Steffen Nurpmeso , IETF Discussion , art@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 596653178.683643-cd7f13e4ed6a585f51b9fc34567a7b81 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <136271A4-28AD-4615-AD7E-EB63B95C05C3@tzi.org> References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> To: John C Klensin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 16:59:46 -0000 On Nov 28, 2019, at 17:33, John C Klensin wrote: >=20 > So, even if it is too late to reconsider these decisions, I hope > we can at least be aware of possible negative side effects. It is never too late to fix this bug. I think the last few months have uncovered a lot of usages for the plain = text form of RFCs, as well as the fact that =E2=80=9Cnobody will ever = look at the plain text now that we have HTML=E2=80=9D is maybe true for = 80 %, but not for 100 %. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Nov 28 09:25:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0EBC1208AB for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:25:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=UIgsDbWt; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=MqMETlX4 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qf1W-BVcENJs for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:25:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69143120836 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:25:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14419 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2019 17:25:44 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=3850.5de00318.k1911; i=printer-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=aXOSfxjsFWa15TXNfLJNBvHHzG4S6LM1rKDtouv56gg=; b=UIgsDbWtBnvEsmJhexK/SqOKZDuj37Z+jKp2UEvbJLxC2afufy80fgdSRN+6xuB9pVan4FtbteVeO56E9BHoXNvQ1IBeD5U4J38wq/LCDqloRBxVKNY6+UM6GksXyaEZ9tyQPA1BoR3KYmJjoIikuxuazkN7H/9UJC4lXMmRNpuwJn2sbe1ScV7gKXyA/LiQspsiPryDsMfpjAlg72ZszPSKNywp1W4u73sc5nyunQtooNcnutogS2kBZNBu05V9 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=3850.5de00318.k1911; olt=printer-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=aXOSfxjsFWa15TXNfLJNBvHHzG4S6LM1rKDtouv56gg=; b=MqMETlX46RrD5axBlPaaLuS9HMq8buBR2HbJvPTBqzJZWixWTQc4+bJHhxnhipQYBHe4zcCSSbXq2qHloeVlPx3DSkO3C4r+U2esEz6rvLbWt5RzqTrJCUveXgLiKG53qArP4CPyNW1kofFHQMB71EHKAWbnSEiolZZm7K0e2pgVPWlfWjWAMfOlfwk+uVuhjIbtMl/kBw/bzwPqIiMTiRTmw47si/tAa+Y47guAZ+JXg8J/FvL9Tl1YgYlpCWFh Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, printer@iecc.com) via TCP6; 28 Nov 2019 17:25:44 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 38203FDF800; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 12:25:43 -0500 (EST) Date: 28 Nov 2019 12:25:43 -0500 Message-Id: <20191128172544.38203FDF800@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: ietf@ietf.org Cc: cabo@tzi.org Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting In-Reply-To: <136271A4-28AD-4615-AD7E-EB63B95C05C3@tzi.org> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 17:25:48 -0000 In article <136271A4-28AD-4615-AD7E-EB63B95C05C3@tzi.org> you write: >On Nov 28, 2019, at 17:33, John C Klensin wrote: >> >> So, even if it is too late to reconsider these decisions, I hope >> we can at least be aware of possible negative side effects. > >It is never too late to fix this bug. One of the biggest advantages of making the XML the canonical format is that the other formats are *not* canonical so they can be recreated in whatever form we want. If people want a line printer page image version with form feeds, I don't think that would be particularly hard to arrange in addition to the other formats. R's, John From nobody Thu Nov 28 09:55:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 085DC120219; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:55:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=garr.it Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8WA-R5FC_35L; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:55:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from cyrus.dir.garr.it (cyrus.dir.garr.it [193.206.158.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68B4A1200B3; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:55:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from cyrus.dir.garr.it ([10.2.2.41]) by cyrus-mailhub1.dir.garr.it (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-8) with ESMTPS id xASHtB5v003278 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 28 Nov 2019 18:55:11 +0100 Received: internal info suppressed Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 18:55:06 +0100 (CET) From: Claudio Allocchio X-X-Sender: claudio@synx02.dir.garr.it To: John C Klensin cc: Steffen Nurpmeso , ietf@ietf.org, art@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting In-Reply-To: <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> Message-ID: References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (OSX 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=garr.it; s=cyrus; t=1574963710; bh=M/7PTEYvY3rM4BuUHb29j3XNRD12Cl9e7T+bTmJSWG0=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=fDBtyoa6QAcm3ZdvCNgLnKiXKmtGdxulELIAhksULZf3wvT6jw8bTsqP7Cc12GAZg 42ay15jcyXpjG3A4/zloKJzyciKUgij3UB7Q8pKpwoe2uVGRFJNNNqpbyoVEYDyppf 7INLlN2c8B31Py7taqUghW8vzF3JgxeuUJruiiXc= Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 17:55:17 -0000 and just let me add to John, that "aestetic" is not always a synonym od "funcionality". More machine processable formats are ok if there is an advantage out of their use, but if not... then, why? It's late... but do not foget this PS: no I'm not a nostalgic of TXT formatting, expecially of the itme when there were no toold than "vi" or equivalent an formatting according to rules was a real pain (and very few wanted to be I-D editors also because of this)... On Thu, 28 Nov 2019, John C Klensin wrote: > (copying the IETF list -- this is not an ART matter alone) > > TL;DL warning: while not terribly long, this is a rant. > > --On Thursday, November 28, 2019 01:50 +0100 Steffen Nurpmeso > wrote: > >> ... >> Yah, hm, hm. It surely has merits, both HTML as well as PDF. >> I have a local RFC pool since, pooh, maybe 2003 or so. The >> german computer magazine c't once put all (?) of them on one >> of their CDs by then, and i am only throwing onto that stock >> ever since. I personally am almost perfectly served with plain >> grep(1) on plain text. Actually i do not even really care >> about missing form feeds, i was only surprised. > > Hi. I realize it is very late, probably too late, to be > complaining about this, but my clear recollection was that, when > the v3 project was started, the community was promised that, > while the authoritative/ canonical/ archival format would shift > to the XML and fully-functional HTML and PDF format (not just > HTML and PDF produced from plain text forms) would become > available, the plain text format would be preserved sufficiently > that tools [1] that were designed for, and used with, RFCs for > the last 40-odd years would continue to work and work equally > well [2]. If page breaks, running headers and footers, and TOCs > and indices with page references have disappeared, some of those > tools will cease working (even if grep still does) and that > violates that particular commitment. If there were an xml2rfc > v3 option that was guaranteed to be supported and that would > generate the older format, even if that format were never stored > on IETF servers, I think that would be sufficient to let us (and > our tools) keep working, but that does not seem to be the case > at present (nor does it address any TOC or index issues).[3] > > This is especially important because at least some of us who > prefer the text form when working with RFCs (even if some of us > might prefer something else for reading them), after losing the > argument about whether XML (or any other generic or formatting > markup arrangement) was appropriate as the canonical/archival > form essentially tuned out of the discussions of xml2rfc v3 > details and decided to devote our available IETF time to > technical standards and other work that we felt had impact on > the Internet rather than just on the IETF and how it operated. > The tuning out was reinforced as it became clear that xml2rfc v3 > was evolving into a odd hybrid between generic and formatting > markup, one that was as or more likely to share the disadvantage > of each rather than the advantages and that, in terms we use > when talking about networking, raises all of the issues of layer > violations. So we didn't read the reports and documents > carefully; we just assumed that, as long as the plain text > format was stable (pagination and all), we would continue to be > able to work without having to spend time converting habits and > tools. > > Perhaps what all of this means is that I (and a few others) are > just old and stuck in our ways and that the IETF would be better > off if we just retired or otherwise moved on. The "old" part > is certainly true for some of us but I'm not convinced about the > "better off" part. However, by requiring us to develop new > tools or learn new tricks, this change may have the effect of > raising the bar for effective participation in the IETF enough > to push us out. That is especially likely when we need to > review and revise older documents. Personally, I think that > pushing anyone out who is willing to do work and might have > useful contributions to make is a bad idea. > > So, even if it is too late to reconsider these decisions, I hope > we can at least be aware of possible negative side effects. > > best, > john > > > [1] The concern is about user-developed tools, used by one > person or a cluster of people who have shared them, not ones > developed or maintained under IETF auspices. > > [2] Reading RFC 7994 only after these changes were identified, I > find that Sections 4.1ff remove headers and footers and the page > numbers from the TOC. But the introductory paragraph of Section > 4 does say > > "One plain-text output will be created during the > publication process with basic pagination that includes > a form feed instruction every 58 lines at most, > including blank lines." > > So perhaps that omission is a bug. > > > [3] The last argument for removing pagination in Section 2.1.3 > of RFC 6949 is almost completely bogus. The problems with > unbroken sections that span several pages, including > difficulties with references to material in those sections, was > noticed not long after RFC 1543 was published with its specific > comments about cross-references to sections and not pages, IIR > much earlier. There was discussion even before then about > insisting on numbered paragraphs, an idea that was abandoned in > large measure because of difficulties with document preparation > and tooling. For some years, the RFC Editor pushed back > aggressively or (or simply modified) such very long sections, > especially when there were cross-references to them (by either > section number or page number). Later, for reasons unrelated to > this rant, the pushback became much less frequent. The problem > is over-long sections; the solution is to manage RFC Style > decisions (during final editing if not earlier) so that they > don't happen, not to pretend that eliminating page numbers will > eliminate those sections by precluding the possibility of using > page number for more granular references. > > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claudio Allocchio G A R R Claudio.Allocchio@garr.it Senior Technical Officer tel: +39 040 3758523 Italian Academic and G=Claudio; S=Allocchio; fax: +39 040 3758565 Research Network P=garr; A=garr; C=it; PGP Key: https://www.cert.garr.it/servizi/informazioni-su-pgp-keys From nobody Thu Nov 28 10:25:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C1E1208BB; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 10:25:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gj6Ojxqh0Gh0; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 10:25:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B68831208B8; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 10:25:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.10.10.159] (76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id xASINdhZ034601 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:23:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70] claimed to be [10.10.10.159] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "John C Klensin" Cc: ietf@ietf.org, art@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 10:25:05 -0800 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13r5655) Message-ID: <8FEF3892-AB75-4D61-AB5B-CF837C0D1773@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 18:25:09 -0000 On 28 Nov 2019, at 8:33, John C Klensin wrote: > (copying the IETF list -- this is not an ART matter alone) > Hi. I realize it is very late, probably too late, to be > complaining about this, but my clear recollection was that, when > the v3 project was started, the community was promised that, > while the authoritative/ canonical/ archival format would shift > to the XML and fully-functional HTML and PDF format (not just > HTML and PDF produced from plain text forms) would become > available, the plain text format would be preserved sufficiently > that tools [1] that were designed for, and used with, RFCs for > the last 40-odd years would continue to work and work equally > well [2]. I strongly believe you are wrong: no such promise was made. If you can find any actual message that made such a promise, I'm happy to stand corrected. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Thu Nov 28 11:05:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB7D81200F6; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:05:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hj2PrvfZnYQJ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:05:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B829B1200A4; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:05:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1574967938; bh=+Rvn83BKMJsE37AzUTX0B2UsEynO4HBcq6H9r8ywCXM=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=lQ3dlXZe7GPypbtW+lSuMoqRUVkBxEc+x2u3Z9f7z0OL42D3QSPXy+vjLv8FOs8sI i7OsI2R8TYJcTgv7+EaSf8V8w9DyOUoZjgD6aD7krs30NNRfoMRp1xFbTwsFSAZ6S/ yvjOz8qvMjSRPY10skK8c4GSrVOXv257ZMEoENDQ= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.124] ([217.251.130.159]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MqJqN-1hxmiH1fwB-00nMKa; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 20:05:38 +0100 Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting To: John C Klensin , Steffen Nurpmeso , ietf@ietf.org Cc: art@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <502f830c-973d-cc9d-12b4-0bda40b05c46@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 20:05:37 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:b4i9ZpVAYjD+Ap2eHuGNK8WqgkemCElIMPBRQxJ8t9W1Muv8eMV KVjzxu8Jsoyuw7Dm7n9WDw71PxB0EfZAy/ds8I0o/mNPM7iHqdOF7uBdV+RXM5EAbOWCaxW uEfGFKq/p6PIe0KNNIXCxIg0mrz2t4ggf05RK7gMtbKGZYaM903lRENrr3wuyZ16yr63oG8 3x+bry+dZZCqEbnw6hsWw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:wtByHHxDjJI=:KXMChsbdxSuk70ehSEtiWd 0g19cmlSlowbbJCAc1mpvPCDAD5zOm+tczDddHNb4CFlRPLsAMW/j2eb3A0Ro/Ht+/9NLp7B0 dmzzAxl5is66Gx+ev2lj636dp4II0Z5m+tqvQEuxWoRrYWx76F91yQxdaxS/zflKX4xkbfEdc AXCNS44vBQG6ioSt7GXE94JVVbxaJEDuQHFjIp01VbCXfJc3FqEpKIOyPtrME11AYBWULC9// E2eUPusDkR8F8iGRR2whbrCjOuNykf8cgZI6CeR7Sj0VT254C5IhhRIdgwjzhtOeisM6O2qn+ n85l32W0AEQOmfMPXV7xd5dfvb7uQJuUW25FuApgEbh5YS7pQejKaEfexevllQDKQ3haZk7YL 3cj/tMny5pnHgPaojFpMhOPxqRfHYkRGJJ3m8apZy8xXzZyxdWckH5Xo35S91CNC56g5WlWjw JTNNvDFGZVQg+yNDpXac31dAq+GE2FwOhva5RDh2U8zzFdLu4w/1ZECy+bsKofyk6lfnzYE7g 93OtooK4DyRPGrzS0s3UZ4/xXZyM6iS42I5NqJbk8h9xoz1GgmNN8UWfnPw4N4jFLbQ8y+uZ+ PsZ6qPdPwt8AMVlV9EQoP0s0VU7FNEqtGk3ZzeLwgFzmfWve7ym4BIexmb3WCSRR/p/Dr3evp 25jx0cxPYDaepSinO+gm2FUI3Rz/hqPEreanmHqvi+Bds6x3uyCsC7Z4CFg2/Bgb1Ln6aVmwb hDIBwE1QFqu/MJFjb1k3kpbfc0m8rMV4UVORcK1WWg9blbK9M+W2H/lLwvyzyZwYfhhUlMPxn pDaJyEsSUNdKuIGJWM0keOPFBD6wwX5LOLKlfab2EBtnssbSMFYN+nfSPym8cD8l7QCUgKlan L6ZX+sRUuQVGuroJfFvI9hjSD7SK/K5uxj1e+EqWXqW51dEvoc4A9zjLoXe9MLZCPhdDXdp1X 8HsUMyAIANtBVfsrP0/SNDKq/P3eFKNMOoUrR8Ysz8R5ELnDYXWCLXnj/+djaB21R7ZwP3Pof V5fBsPtkfS9Wr5Xn7yzK8tymv5EdW5KEQE8bO1LboCl/kxEKtPRp0KhyCwGTADXKQQHgfGIbi kfWeQSQBR1YPav5sabXtAq9E8pkFt8i0ngArTa2/Zq6c00ICq0uzWSW2Sv0lZ8cuABKR11hSS Yt3OHh6xh04Aydvu0qIufZI5o++bx7mWf/2vG9CEnoShQdiBmC6tSxQ8+w08IuZj2nw3E4gT3 /j5RLtcJB28Sip27/L5CuLMDwjbltVqQia3Yzyh0k8B6+3Dcob4ivCC2Y1gQ= Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 19:05:56 -0000 On 28.11.2019 17:33, John C Klensin wrote: > ... > [1] The concern is about user-developed tools, used by one > person or a cluster of people who have shared them, not ones > developed or maintained under IETF auspices. Do you have a concrete case of a tool that fails with the new format? > [2] Reading RFC 7994 only after these changes were identified, I > find that Sections 4.1ff remove headers and footers and the page > numbers from the TOC. But the introductory paragraph of Section > 4 does say > > "One plain-text output will be created during the > publication process with basic pagination that includes > a form feed instruction every 58 lines at most, > including blank lines." > > So perhaps that omission is a bug. AFAIR, the intent was to *paginate*, nothing more (yes, no headers, footers, no page numbers). > ... Best regards, Julian From nobody Thu Nov 28 11:58:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD6551208C9 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:58:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ay1U8-TpqAZC for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:58:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82b.google.com (mail-qt1-x82b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A64171208C8 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:58:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82b.google.com with SMTP id n4so30189458qte.2 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:58:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gxMOS47/rqXvyUrG6Js2HPsTMMmP4w02Xhyf6Jq7Bsg=; b=DvqnUxodr97n+Q/2Ran11rQQtdafEMsrzW6cG4OGkH9hdigdmplWjaaC3LuAzJXbA7 +yrthl3eKzzL8zDyk3R7OCh5avOOLTXBnL3FuZ3ahpNl4xbUXHy7cyQn/87hgQlK6YUK 2sF6hJPr4YnwtKAmEZ7VKe1EPeyPhAdMYbNeNEkfg82F5TnqnylKcgN31Cz5zL/upOri gEOp+goioK9SvGgALoyQRhOBdkcEnkmNN8WMpVF2rXaCwGCAMtk1uZ4Xaf3SKay+487Y RgpX1g5ETOmwseDARVW631nS7PZpDPkg6ruAvcpffCArdOgy5i0bPmDzqsBcWKX9jeK1 T+jg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gxMOS47/rqXvyUrG6Js2HPsTMMmP4w02Xhyf6Jq7Bsg=; b=NPMMLJB8qgLTFQ4bnl2XHZLbXIYderGIgjd3c6y1a3vZ4MQVrBCD8Oj7BaE6KmqGW9 iEnTw3jJjeIjBcrfzgTWhIgWUxNRDkHdR4pFDFpg+lnYBXoLVfZFGH0co1pFQ9czPQ9s rDawroA0BCJu83L9DvRM8AmnhCqehE89oFHDYv2Z1tl/LpnjCU6LObRa3mZxmWbuz/tG GEHprlrodsoi6vNSdI5xcD7bQVrYoDYWxTUmjrb/5FWtvbalsNjQwMMroIWS/kZ5pIEo ejiv6M24qMiPwGV/cs0tBJKSDnqCZcVbtsketIJPqXh0lx1e7EcjMtzD9SmZylo+g68+ WqPw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXvllHJYP8eeVMrDuOGWEFtb+xzOh4SWGVPKB5I8++MpuE601Mp 0059qq6ZDso3qIdz20sTDApY2m0K80mar33IDFYEGjjv1HQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzgXDAJnBLjjSIjLuf4vkzzXRmI+M6OXAhwGdNCVI0w8UyVVNV/wHDZ3dBvc5fAC+w4J177svWtZo7FpCr+fGY= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:1afc:: with SMTP id h57mr36584526qtk.250.1574971087901; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:58:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <8FEF3892-AB75-4D61-AB5B-CF837C0D1773@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <8FEF3892-AB75-4D61-AB5B-CF837C0D1773@vpnc.org> From: Jeffrey Yasskin Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:57:56 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting To: Paul Hoffman Cc: John C Klensin , IETF Discussion , RFC Editor Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003a4afb05986d8826" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 19:58:12 -0000 --0000000000003a4afb05986d8826 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 10:25 AM Paul Hoffman wrote: > On 28 Nov 2019, at 8:33, John C Klensin wrote: > > > (copying the IETF list -- this is not an ART matter alone) > > Hi. I realize it is very late, probably too late, to be > > complaining about this, but my clear recollection was that, when > > the v3 project was started, the community was promised that, > > while the authoritative/ canonical/ archival format would shift > > to the XML and fully-functional HTML and PDF format (not just > > HTML and PDF produced from plain text forms) would become > > available, the plain text format would be preserved sufficiently > > that tools [1] that were designed for, and used with, RFCs for > > the last 40-odd years would continue to work and work equally > > well [2]. > > I strongly believe you are wrong: no such promise was made. If you can > find any actual message that made such a promise, I'm happy to stand > corrected. > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rse/format-faq/#10 points to https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6949.html#section-3.3, which explicitly retires pagination as a goal. Jeffrey --0000000000003a4afb05986d8826 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 10:25 AM Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffma= n@vpnc.org> wrote:
On 28 No= v 2019, at 8:33, John C Klensin wrote:

> (copying the IETF list -- this is not an ART matter alone)
> Hi.=C2=A0 I realize it is very late, probably too late, to be
> complaining about this, but my clear recollection was that, when
> the v3 project was started, the community was promised that,
> while the authoritative/ canonical/ archival format would shift
> to the XML and fully-functional HTML and PDF format (not just
> HTML and PDF produced from plain text forms) would become
> available, the plain text format would be preserved sufficiently
> that tools [1] that were designed for, and used with, RFCs for
> the last 40-odd years would continue to work and work equally
> well [2].

I strongly believe you are wrong: no such promise was made. If you can
find any actual message that made such a promise, I'm happy to stand corrected.


Jeffrey
--0000000000003a4afb05986d8826-- From nobody Thu Nov 28 12:30:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40A1C1208D0 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 12:30:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JqVbYOwVK0XT for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 12:30:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x644.google.com (mail-pl1-x644.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::644]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1CC8120288 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 12:30:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x644.google.com with SMTP id bb5so11989982plb.4 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 12:30:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=98kfKr/zTxP9zZp9wUvoUdGYOc9oU7YHubbOLRrQeyE=; b=qWWHZPOnbyumd+H+lT9GAgF2P1jDU2GU/OPtJQCUwI51PUh7WaSrWxqzFXFhUzFVvy 3ppyCOVD5VFDaVm8XWZm8LaTn8lVu6YQWVBOmy20lFOmLozxYZhc5JuIByrJysbrl5gv XAWP1mdXqlfgUkfIU3Lx/WoOMXCC52UrJK1RrIJzyATvlcL1N0xdW6JdHfXEZx3xeX00 A2o2/29W4QmcqwDQDsoDS8eofWeOJ0mEwQaYNjl/Vu4D0GWBd2FjEcH9PKbg0scPQKrz goL4rjRfJjXvb1upSlO4fDNUzUh4Adr8XvYt5AmRviCSIIuTjLHYFnGmHJABY+Yy1FX1 smrg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=98kfKr/zTxP9zZp9wUvoUdGYOc9oU7YHubbOLRrQeyE=; b=TdtRW1TQnrIKtrfCxCsAVpaEQ3rkeyzMI7R+vH3oshhURxmyjCQ69f9HDbLofQdV+2 FRV1d/y0bKAplmiO5qsTtmaqKOc5UmykJUjK+iNEwEXZ+GOcANjeHbJkKkzTqB0K3S2N xDwWIIjhq8fKuFUFf8GQtJ4CHlyieV8l3tOpPw+K72rSzWsG72ZA3yq6QWCx6wAnvuZi 8SQaiL+TXk7bL8eeF72R1X+rTaTo7pmofbze9iemSOCeSWIXMGRYthIiYrhUdasd95wZ sjylOFzgWTjIWPOU7R9fGUFCGenMRcny5vYBUmSDOC1svJQ7bWf6rZYuU08cH5sMijr5 Uojg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXVWBcejjdbigiaubNjOAOsHxkR1uAJxi898+AVJLIJC/ogKdU/ eNw8N0mT2ELDnXjhAcpSPsoIad3CO54= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwAKM/eceoMJ9NRGLN0ptT5pI28l8Hnq7x2+kJkY+9Ddw088iLJnnP6vZ+gdoUm7fxoXJQM5A== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:b90a:: with SMTP id bf10mr11360068plb.45.1574973020771; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 12:30:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (228.147.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.147.228]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l7sm7614535pfl.11.2019.11.28.12.30.19 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 28 Nov 2019 12:30:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting To: ietf@ietf.org References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <502f830c-973d-cc9d-12b4-0bda40b05c46@gmx.de> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 09:30:17 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <502f830c-973d-cc9d-12b4-0bda40b05c46@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 20:30:23 -0000 On 29-Nov-19 08:05, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 28.11.2019 17:33, John C Klensin wrote: >> ... >> [1] The concern is about user-developed tools, used by one >> person or a cluster of people who have shared them, not ones >> developed or maintained under IETF auspices. > > Do you have a concrete case of a tool that fails with the new format? > >> [2] Reading RFC 7994 only after these changes were identified, I >> find that Sections 4.1ff remove headers and footers and the page >> numbers from the TOC. But the introductory paragraph of Section >> 4 does say >> >> "One plain-text output will be created during the >> publication process with basic pagination that includes >> a form feed instruction every 58 lines at most, >> including blank lines." >> >> So perhaps that omission is a bug. > > AFAIR, the intent was to *paginate*, nothing more (yes, no headers, > footers, no page numbers). What I care most about is to have a side-by-side diff format as useful as rfcdiff produces. From a practical point of view, that has been the greatest benefit of pagination and fixed width font for many years now. The ability to print on a line printer or a Diabolo hasn't been important for 25 years or so. Brian From nobody Thu Nov 28 12:34:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC1EC1208B0 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 12:34:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.441 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.441 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MkvJh-N0gUJq for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 12:34:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from implementers.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:45:216:3eff:fe7f:7abd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19465120288 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 12:34:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2601:648:8400:8e7d:c9d2:c0b4:28:e68a] (unknown [IPv6:2601:648:8400:8e7d:c9d2:c0b4:28:e68a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10A3EAE61E; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 21:34:16 +0100 (CET) From: Marc Petit-Huguenin Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting To: Jeffrey Yasskin , Paul Hoffman Cc: John C Klensin , IETF Discussion , RFC Editor References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <8FEF3892-AB75-4D61-AB5B-CF837C0D1773@vpnc.org> Autocrypt: addr=petithug@acm.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBE6Mh9wBEADrUEDZChteJbQtsHwZITZExr7TAqT7pniNwhBX3nFgd+FrV3lsLKJ1rym2 52MAYpubXEJZGzMp6uCCAnROWbtmQbOm8z/jHnjxHhPqfuYCYPpAQqu8K/Sc194Rp37krMwB jz32yr7+gvWLzRgQGKIh9d2mzy8QLMETVWWQWGb6fEfpOxXo0wumN1rc/275kZwOu44JIPGg zbgwZdnEqYOUUa18K9MXeRDoWbwDISP30CvKuZDwD14lbBE3o7tBQrU9uoMhE7eFlTjbsCox qoubI2tZSuOTF8mRXjPmNrRGtf9mYkQnOB7y6qy/QxmOVMq4IRtHzOYIm/EZ6NTodcpZQHOM 2v6B6YK9uKrYrapSpJzn4f9oU7alT31Y3o2hOlxAWDQ16+Dd1MOPYsKQXOwY1/ihm4PTjiJ8 ud8yPzy7c+BSVs5wkBU6QuLNIgZHrrxdn+KxM+F/oAVtfzO7XzVoeOcXyWi3/CHL5pgoBruY enIF/RrRuplpy09pvZjmFPNfqKBYJGnqpQuqsQwO7LsFqDqfY2EuHg+KsGN1XuN+jxXc48/1 gCnKw7ALSPWEb7g25wD6KfiZTAcyRTG8LePNFQKhw61LbIWmkw9EaVLyXvwPTc1iCSc0dDT/ pcT/z+8xrWOyWGZNZAjR584NlDpKollbItcxYtFcYZkvTCmOVwARAQABtCZNYXJjIFBldGl0 LUh1Z3VlbmluIDxwZXRpdGh1Z0BhY20ub3JnPokCOAQTAQgAIgIbIwYLCQgHAwIGFQgCCQoL BBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlfy11wACgkQKcRFldZqfsRWqBAAu/61DGo+j38UefTKnEse0mftPBXa S4lre7vknn33MI0L5QXmiM8zRs9FOKSuXPx0EV+JhI4pWZGW/2MJPuyifXHvnIChcdGInN8J GBdTLZSOgdDFZL9msO+QUsvMA8ZUsqlKOEcVL1NyoLupblCWNq4fYhBCx1zDwX9LZSuGn8lZ Mk8a4QFGoR6dWKaOxeCwnoquW5IK1CfRIhYjHfQMjA5gY0H46F0iCqBaFF/S7krQwIJd0XN4 YbSL4KOrWuxtgQ+iH/iaxxBXgJ1blBNRzXaWJBF4PHv23nSnEzWO17j+uVMaHJu7ycYEf8T9 pVc0xcok1BM2rCrNE5FUFAzsUtAtBZEEK6sSIeOhRG93uD/Hv1hrWzEwf+Z7B1tVQLCQQ4kL 7wyS7SXI/JTuW2xTEGCmwMeWYGERdkgsatmx4zi5nVHDjt3/mlPMj4L+u05SkI2iV4W6xxU1 jHlBIJDs7AVM0dsxzTyIPf2Sz843WyHuBgkoCskxGfOwlkZzDX9rwcWRKal1wjy1w/25LsBY U50INandw3UbrS2I73VX8ARI8uOWZrW7uzRLf8EmuPhtSQ35ThmdoNSgGMP9EXwNgzi/i+5G hbX5KbrSLG9SITFJEcJA4tnwu3nqmBh7D7vbd5ln5X7rmqPdyjidt0zcSjvuaBA+nkmakA4A O+choWy5Ag0EToyH3AEQAL+LguHhcSDCL/IevdcvH/5/fzO2fmuuTxdGwrZZSm7l6/HD2Ira h6Wpa1LvVeRbnsRq8k6O8/i3wVapEoQPmNY3vjWfXaJb8R4vHcqgcxw9N9jhZa+mvGJk9+cI ilDyPzHRBBID4d/3oFKQCQ4Y2SIkO66znPhfBOS2f2AU7AtXHhVEyj6WsLK6boEMcj7j+w5a es2nZam0jhgoz+4DQem4uk8outrRlboGnZN7A2kCNuy39UeOp7BpvQ95IKcJCIeSoiJt2A4B NPQroqhW0zGn9Y9FJ9UiZ9YIeNPYbscUxxvrD+OU9Jv67hW0v3KfvoIKDwVKpO3MW6o+1teS Gt1KCSz+CvGJCvIxfCk7S5K5SBne7ZNKz7rkGXYIzlyr7ZoEgRHmqGmcK/sHTS4e6g2pQQrR USkspyqLZl5Uzmg7yI5oGBL0aHTzYdDkkOKMRXYnl7ivBeNtGcniGqlONLJxpbwec8j7hLRq pXFuepbtPqX/GefuK8rdo+ppEqpRJ50cJTegchTfWfSjn5/mG1B4Oz9OnOcBEeTLO729n0K9 BeTx1pmisD6P/fyrqZZTozDwVEi7Wo9AOaqWOhuTe8L0FlFIk6fc/yM0wzvDWP7sNrevEYHK V9rd+Yc/Jjt293J4uayrt6DNMmSkAw3nlBq3uK5d54J0FAsAUcsE/W2/ABEBAAGJAh8EGAEI AAkCGwwFAlfy11wACgkQKcRFldZqfsSQyA/+Kx3eWtKyb/y35TjgtjT/Hrtw+aIpr1uK97LA ln1j5m7+lQ/jh0/rvSZjs+YQMYLqVGI8oaaF/u+qrokkU6pfrhVZ49D1BmmSTMBSYgnBDYqZ yZ+uzQnnDYt/mpo2OLbl9BhuifR5QXLp43cE1FIhyDT46wfse5tNZ+ll4m4HtXuTw4W3b4cP Hto10260Mki7hXbkDMZ+icBFDMkrrZyYHSnBhelzIM7XnY7A/XZdulfFcDXEcZhAFEv3ylJs xTnGwzDyP1VAdBFL3hpP1CqfP1Kti4hKcxXZYbIgTSsBjcYbPchw3ktUTU29I/nWKH5gmD+q wFizyhtt8Qhl6U67OdZ/XbRGBXs/7tlYJIGiGZyG7IQtDOX0PsVd+6WRcDdFqkpBwYkxU8gd iCeW+YTQ5d8mXXPT2dhFAeK2hCFa2+IdaXvH8ovjZpTMeKstHrWJUDaSqQ4GFT676DbDyqtm P6Ul9cjGVtXIs64FWqR9wrbwBH1GuIHhDmG9sN5AkyB9mxXaEG3uG4E6qQeedtIKC6p+ebAs aTGgztFWMJDC8LUznu7B0oyWxNVoE/RGt5mesOeAtqYr6Jtdh7unyk8BYP1y4e+SSMwvtwh+ 69tJwNhGYbOJrdX34tXNAKb6r/rFRjVJm+sPPs5ok7LddvV35o+Fho0LRNDsioDV3HytlhA= Message-ID: <08ffacbb-ce0b-9080-07e6-29415b2454ce@acm.org> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 12:34:14 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ssXzaADkDFsL4jZvKhR7pz7LfjU6ZGeau" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 20:34:22 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --ssXzaADkDFsL4jZvKhR7pz7LfjU6ZGeau Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="qb2z3TyCXF0mWQkf7SH2u2DMTQZZ8th9r"; protected-headers="v1" From: Marc Petit-Huguenin To: Jeffrey Yasskin , Paul Hoffman Cc: John C Klensin , IETF Discussion , RFC Editor Message-ID: <08ffacbb-ce0b-9080-07e6-29415b2454ce@acm.org> Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <8FEF3892-AB75-4D61-AB5B-CF837C0D1773@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: --qb2z3TyCXF0mWQkf7SH2u2DMTQZZ8th9r Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Step 1, apply the following patch to xml2rfc: --- cli/xml2rfc/run.py | 2 +- 1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 1 deletion(-) diff --git a/cli/xml2rfc/run.py b/cli/xml2rfc/run.py index fc933f4..e75832f 100755 --- a/cli/xml2rfc/run.py +++ b/cli/xml2rfc/run.py @@ -407,7 +407,7 @@ def main(): # Remember if we're building an RFC options.rfc =3D xmlrfc.tree.getroot().get('number') if options.rfc: - options.pagination =3D False + options.pagination =3D True # Check if we've received a version=3D"3" document, and adjust accor= dingly if xmlrfc.tree.getroot().get('version') =3D=3D '3': --=20 2.24.0 Step 2: For all the RFCs published using xmlrfc 3, download the xml file.= Step 3: Regenerate the txt files from the xml files using the patched xml= 2rfc. On 11/28/19 11:57 AM, Jeffrey Yasskin wrote: > On Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 10:25 AM Paul Hoffman wro= te: >=20 >> On 28 Nov 2019, at 8:33, John C Klensin wrote: >> >>> (copying the IETF list -- this is not an ART matter alone) >>> Hi. I realize it is very late, probably too late, to be >>> complaining about this, but my clear recollection was that, when >>> the v3 project was started, the community was promised that, >>> while the authoritative/ canonical/ archival format would shift >>> to the XML and fully-functional HTML and PDF format (not just >>> HTML and PDF produced from plain text forms) would become >>> available, the plain text format would be preserved sufficiently >>> that tools [1] that were designed for, and used with, RFCs for >>> the last 40-odd years would continue to work and work equally >>> well [2]. >> >> I strongly believe you are wrong: no such promise was made. If you can= >> find any actual message that made such a promise, I'm happy to stand >> corrected. >> >=20 > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rse/format-faq/#10 points to > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6949.html#section-3.3, which explicit= ly > retires pagination as a goal. >=20 > Jeffrey >=20 --=20 Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug --qb2z3TyCXF0mWQkf7SH2u2DMTQZZ8th9r-- --ssXzaADkDFsL4jZvKhR7pz7LfjU6ZGeau Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEBSI+IuCHU8MsI1GjKcRFldZqfsQFAl3gL0YACgkQKcRFldZq fsTs7A//ZoPS+tuLs/rnhZ+0Ve1pb7bClJAr879r//AbyteznksbEO1LAd1DiO7U w7xF11KtzGJ4UrmMdsnmcceZ6c9C0VAkVx106O8ecCUL0LulTC4YzA0CpcgHdIen a+wI73dkZCqNJjwomric2O5UV/gLfPV61PfAEzisC3YV5DH2rLNuPABMiLmt7qVb ehXi18VaEUXEJkDtpF5yGQ9flrLSBaQXrBA31nIwnSmS/I5Kxhy6H30J1dpSncQ4 STbRTPpMsgrR43fbcLCEDJAbTcwgbfJTEF483SXFgAX3hazregjzPe/wiEDpgVes a/wc3ollfj/v8FdwZhRUG5psu1WrBx7VDXg8qiGYoJMMqVnNcjURr2uxGeWTisRE wiGfJRHVR5Driq66+c+fVQR4YeVkBEUpkJ5MQG2FqwXJt0X7WS4u4Y31paq/IJLR 8laK+kH9J4vlAGGwGiP13frM4orclmDuviiEkkqyx/ngh79m9eHHRixkNDnf60Uj /pNt3AgIeSf2Cah1EG79f6zNFZjItJae1mnpFT9i3ytYJUKNTGbMAxaLm2KcUQz6 7uVWkLVIhdHsM2BX0DpB8N1SmIKJhX971PBIpjb5CTI5zpCo7bc53o2C7ld689BD f9QLsRVFx43RejlBvqx0Uwm8gzEf928rZ1+/usE5ZwpB5gBgxYA= =iDWM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ssXzaADkDFsL4jZvKhR7pz7LfjU6ZGeau-- From nobody Thu Nov 28 12:58:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D411A1208D1 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 12:58:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZEzauAuG4BFk for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 12:58:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0AEC1208D0 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 12:58:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.10.10.159] (76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id xASKv22X044789 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 28 Nov 2019 13:57:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70] claimed to be [10.10.10.159] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "Jeffrey Yasskin" Cc: "John C Klensin" , "IETF Discussion" , "RFC Editor" Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 12:58:29 -0800 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13r5655) Message-ID: <553E235A-50B4-452C-B6D6-79E85C5D75F7@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <8FEF3892-AB75-4D61-AB5B-CF837C0D1773@vpnc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 20:58:36 -0000 On 28 Nov 2019, at 11:57, Jeffrey Yasskin wrote: > On Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 10:25 AM Paul Hoffman > wrote: > >> On 28 Nov 2019, at 8:33, John C Klensin wrote: >> >>> (copying the IETF list -- this is not an ART matter alone) >>> Hi. I realize it is very late, probably too late, to be >>> complaining about this, but my clear recollection was that, when >>> the v3 project was started, the community was promised that, >>> while the authoritative/ canonical/ archival format would shift >>> to the XML and fully-functional HTML and PDF format (not just >>> HTML and PDF produced from plain text forms) would become >>> available, the plain text format would be preserved sufficiently >>> that tools [1] that were designed for, and used with, RFCs for >>> the last 40-odd years would continue to work and work equally >>> well [2]. >> >> I strongly believe you are wrong: no such promise was made. If you >> can >> find any actual message that made such a promise, I'm happy to stand >> corrected. >> > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rse/format-faq/#10 points to > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6949.html#section-3.3, which > explicitly > retires pagination as a goal. Yes, of course. That's a significant amount less that what John was (possibly mis-remembering) in the "promise" he spoke about. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Thu Nov 28 18:23:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC89E12010C; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 18:23:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.105 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.105 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BeD5IpxmnOFd; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 18:23:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa3.jck.com (unknown [65.175.133.137]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 017341200FA; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 18:23:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from hp5.int.jck.com ([198.252.137.153] helo=JcK-HP5.jck.com) by bsa3.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1iaVvp-0003Dz-G3; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 21:22:53 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 21:22:48 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Julian Reschke , Steffen Nurpmeso , ietf@ietf.org cc: art@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Message-ID: <5A8862BB0F82FECBBF737CC6@JcK-HP5.jck.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 02:23:03 -0000 --On Thursday, 28 November, 2019 20:05 +0100 Julian Reschke wrote: > On 28.11.2019 17:33, John C Klensin wrote: >> ... >> [1] The concern is about user-developed tools, used by one >> person or a cluster of people who have shared them, not ones >> developed or maintained under IETF auspices. > > Do you have a concrete case of a tool that fails with the new > format? Julian, I think that is precisely the wrong question to be asking. My note indicated that the concern was about private tools, not ones that the IETF community has necessarily ever been told about. I'll answer the question anyway, which is that I have such tools, mostly written for an emacs clone as either macros or in its proprietary extension language. Some of them predate even the first instance of XML2RFC. A subset of those include some that have not been used recently but that were used to write drafts for RFCs either direct-to-text or using private macros for nroff or similar format markup systems that were then converted to text using those systems before submission. Others have been in active use more recently. One got into trouble with RFC RFC 8689 because, for some reason, it tried to do a search on "[Page" or some regex equivalent. I don't know how important that search is or how hard it would be to replace (I haven't looked at the internals of most of those in 20-odd years) but the point is that this is a more disruptive change than some of would have predicted. My response to Paul's comment is similar, again with the observation that it may be much too late to do anything other than maybe learn a lesson: it really does not make any difference whether I can find a specific promise or not. I believe the community of people who work with RFCs (not just the subset who have been designing and implementing v3 or the overlapping subset who design and implement too for the community) were led to believe this was going to be a non-disruptive change. We were told that we could keep working in v2 (with whatever v2-prep tools we had) and submitting that way and the Production Center would sort things out, and, while v3 would bring many advantage to the Production Center, those who wanted to use it, and people who preferred reading RFCs in more "modern" formats, no one needed to make changes in how they were doing things. In addition to the positive things that have been said about v3, to the best of my knowledge at least, the community was never told "this is going to result in some incompatible changes that you will need to deal with, are those changes acceptable for the benefits they will bring". In itself, the absence of that question strongly implies only changes that are non-disruptive except to those who choose to use new features and to the Production Center. Well, causing old tools, even non-public tools, to not work as they did before and without changes to those tools is a disruptive change. >> [2] Reading RFC 7994 only after these changes were >> identified, I find that Sections 4.1ff remove headers and >> footers and the page numbers from the TOC. But the >> introductory paragraph of Section 4 does say >> >> "One plain-text output will be created during the >> publication process with basic pagination that includes >> a form feed instruction every 58 lines at most, >> including blank lines." >> >> So perhaps that omission is a bug. > > AFAIR, the intent was to *paginate*, nothing more (yes, no > headers, > footers, no page numbers). That is certainly what 7994 says. To me, the important question is whether publication in that (and other) documents is sufficient to warn the community about changes that may be incompatible with tools or working procedures used by contributors. If the answer is "yes", then every one of us is responsible for being thoroughly familiar with every RFC or announcement that might affect IETF procedures, publications, and other ways in which we do things so there is an opportunity to raise timely objections. I don't think we want to go there but should instead assume that people in the community should be warned by explicit questions and requests for consensus before incompatible changes are made. YMMD, of course, best, john From nobody Thu Nov 28 21:02:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B20FD1208ED; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 21:02:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cdpfShTMvvr2; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 21:02:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF9DC12004A; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 21:02:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1575003713; bh=sRAccdfLdBIwRcr5RycLuPtdh7hK80bHpuoRLwjDMWA=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Uukr1HTbsTJarERhtv4wwkIJpiF0SepC5Ce7vlIVU2s1LtSzpGgP/Qsd+yeb4lxev fXgIuSkZtAG7HxkNDPJ3xYF4i1lBT29jeQ5Li+1Rb7BO3FMG6b5rEw6tXJ8VaUHJjN 8lD5RJq3teUFkP9Rhi04h48+N1M9f3CIvMWO3zUI= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.124] ([217.251.131.11]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MZCb5-1iEsoD3UfZ-00V8l7; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 06:01:52 +0100 Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting To: John C Klensin , Steffen Nurpmeso , ietf@ietf.org Cc: art@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org References: <5A8862BB0F82FECBBF737CC6@JcK-HP5.jck.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <725e1fd3-5af6-02f1-3a81-763797b8222c@gmx.de> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 06:01:49 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5A8862BB0F82FECBBF737CC6@JcK-HP5.jck.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:0x7jlGAjAmJ/h74zPGJ69INU0FmwDtpTbSDd6dY6JRYFrqarexj ar/pisCFIYfoN1nr8+GR4sOkT+C6jPPkcCil1VcQMdo5aCDGfX/DypJo3p79jRX1E6JJMPP Fye+B6075E7LiCKyktxMDjlbo9+ID4E6LeiUfGkNZmoykbkUH4kzg40M40WBa9D7wJoMYuR 1Ud3tSXsfXH3VCwvNBFpw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:03yhrDPOHrc=:zsL7RAvvfD9P2ijqWiktdw IkD9ElogQQ/aLz/xXI/+/RuJiuHnK13PvAM1w3qt9JKGL/uyGeBHfuLuFn/w9n0VnER43orxy TQ1eaivOfzwmISFjQ2BeeiXvyASi04d6fNR5hYEmJ4Pykg2ey3pIMzGmXdjxenWlRf8m6MY1g q3Lo6i/efj4XxqGzNA41eXvSg81uLiXWQVVTmK/iu9MSCrvvRoKMwNmoF5uDxL90IAKHD75yL M7NBBQwcZjTOMp1XIUTb09lcNAL6aXCp6gmW6nbPP1y0olHIEuIVFoDgm9M2voiQB5y4mavJh d4lJF54cjbBrsVI9zwWbcIPhSfAmcLhvOOjGOOzMRoiOa96Cm+NV02gtFAUR4jNEMLBc7UNRv Ng364oIVJrOpvPs9je4b3OJrT6np92FqiRtgMvcPhx2puTY4ESMtn/wl0XPDxoJ5saPEqZ2wo rYnQGdGCVFJCRN8DVfGzhiFsyv8JrgIwd1aEANOoMPjapx9CFl6Wn40Dk5shMXUP20ftLbpzy KjkMSV8fcIQLqOibOzu/XaKOjdnYid87Nkuce16lG+JpPchcUq1+1Q6JzojFQuXhE8fgBZdFD WHEGEBSV619RYQ2trUvVKmHlXsATixIF4oQEzcsPaZ7q/eMbe80ANOR1banp/AG093lF2p9NC wCnuccpeVjS1xQ7CfFTU0wwz9tC/vl5CkJicXSomIGGQn9OruoyLT4AyEXMLsFAy1ldop0/Ts 4Z8OVi030GqtEWihvEt4G2sWv4FQBCCHyqXGTeBUNJAKWEWN7K/GCGRSDlu7G/WgZ32ipRgfI jMIayt+nWAjP6+r++F6ZxQP8k3yreHnErCNwmoeztkH8W/4WPatlax18VorZbo+3zg/yY98Ic hTnv/SGRjT1Xv6MIe5EbiCB4pjtHL+FPSeT3a0SwhMsAWENAfpEcny6iuAo56hN0QGkrr00Zq UcRfKOEOAs3pqRTM5Sppbphev/rcfKLqA1/9Y5OdW/IE74Rt9NtS10+jBpkhULjSzaAPb3KGs 3xG4XIhGoqQxR9JLqCoqp880ZfBn3XehpY0h6F2vJ5lNGIchwWXcjNOxOnBWU3VXvBaz8AXeS R5wh0D3vBA0VGrKb09DevxiydOrfOR4oP1baGJMAWtAFE6LMvuoMxWA93vmdRh/ZN2nsY1ECC KJMStPlR898SCRZgW7MGo7kqYoPyrXcBOQ/i5xiiD0VqGxdZtsfu5W7ETQm4rx2C3j33OAH1s Em3XqQYvEPBatia8Htvrn5T8/pbdqXZsk2HU2TNjLpxSx1HEr0TYta6Vgucg= Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 05:02:09 -0000 On 29.11.2019 03:22, John C Klensin wrote: > ... > Julian, I think that is precisely the wrong question to be > asking. My note indicated that the concern was about private > tools, not ones that the IETF community has necessarily ever > been told about. I'll answer the question anyway, which is that > I have such tools, mostly written for an emacs clone as either > macros or in its proprietary extension language. Some of them > predate even the first instance of XML2RFC. A subset of those > include some that have not been used recently but that were used > to write drafts for RFCs either direct-to-text or using private > macros for nroff or similar format markup systems that were then > converted to text using those systems before submission. Others > have been in active use more recently. One got into trouble > with RFC RFC 8689 because, for some reason, it tried to do a > search on "[Page" or some regex equivalent. I don't know how > important that search is or how hard it would be to replace (I > haven't looked at the internals of most of those in 20-odd > years) but the point is that this is a more disruptive change > than some of would have predicted. > > My response to Paul's comment is similar, again with the > observation that it may be much too late to do anything other > than maybe learn a lesson: it really does not make any > difference whether I can find a specific promise or not. I > believe the community of people who work with RFCs (not just the > subset who have been designing and implementing v3 or the > overlapping subset who design and implement too for the > community) were led to believe this was going to be a > non-disruptive change. We were told that we could keep working > in v2 (with whatever v2-prep tools we had) and submitting that > way and the Production Center would sort things out, and, while > v3 would bring many advantage to the Production Center, those > who wanted to use it, and people who preferred reading RFCs in > more "modern" formats, no one needed to make changes in how they > were doing things. In addition to the positive things that have > been said about v3, to the best of my knowledge at least, the > community was never told "this is going to result in some > incompatible changes that you will need to deal with, are those > changes acceptable for the benefits they will bring". In > itself, the absence of that question strongly implies only > changes that are non-disruptive except to those who choose to > use new features and to the Production Center. > > Well, causing old tools, even non-public tools, to not work as > they did before and without changes to those tools is a > disruptive change. > ... John, with all due respect, there's a reason I asked, so for me this question definitively is not the "wrong" question. When we had these discussions many years ago, the assumption was that tools that operate on plain text RFCs would strip pagination first (or ignore it altogether) before doing what they need to do next. I would like to understand whether this assumption was wrong, and how *exactly* tools now break. >>> [2] Reading RFC 7994 only after these changes were >>> identified, I find that Sections 4.1ff remove headers and >>> footers and the page numbers from the TOC. But the >>> introductory paragraph of Section 4 does say >>> >>> "One plain-text output will be created during the >>> publication process with basic pagination that includes >>> a form feed instruction every 58 lines at most, >>> including blank lines." >>> >>> So perhaps that omission is a bug. >> >> AFAIR, the intent was to *paginate*, nothing more (yes, no >> headers, >> footers, no page numbers). > > That is certainly what 7994 says. To me, the important > question is whether publication in that (and other) documents is > sufficient to warn the community about changes that may be > incompatible with tools or working procedures used by > contributors. If the answer is "yes", then every one of us is > responsible for being thoroughly familiar with every RFC or > announcement that might affect IETF procedures, publications, > and other ways in which we do things so there is an opportunity > to raise timely objections. I don't think we want to go there > but should instead assume that people in the community should be > warned by explicit questions and requests for consensus before > incompatible changes are made. YMMD, of course, > ... Heather has sent out mails, published FAQs, explained things at the plenary, and had a poster at the RFC desk for a long time. I would say this was hard to miss. Best regards, Julian PS: I have many other issues with the V3 switch, mainly that we are now publishing "canonical" versions in a undocumented and un-reviewed format. In comparison to that, the changes in the produced text format currently seem to be a minor issue. From nobody Thu Nov 28 21:23:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 490B812004A for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 21:23:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mvE4-OwiKR4u for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 21:22:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0157120013 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 21:22:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A5C6780; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 00:22:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 29 Nov 2019 00:22:58 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=zKslIJXmSSoXHA4e/kaUZDFC9bTeIRuBcCK/PgWq3 1U=; b=J4GCNKjO0wRaTVuSLMlmUF0tALPXN5kH/+sh7bc6O0OelBlQUOK4n8zHB OpVQaA9YmpSmS32ZNr1QqweDUAItfLhy3J5uYmGO5wsKGxQntHE4cV0n+YRn0BzK eSCCuM4VchlVbbZ6II/bM1UKeZY3XvDKo1Lqi143lp1sMwufmLmsTINTVz4uYV6l V+KDHzAYAz7SM+BMyRdpQCQ12AQyup5fS8cDcbCf/HvpznCj33Mqp8krpUltHjkf t13SUgTpfuZ6TxHv4snQa+xX6wkL1NOLAvH8ZbWTA+yk+QVkTQ19TgZtTLzPlriG 7SVoA+AF9YsAnovGu+M6yTcRifkjA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudeikedgkeefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtje ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrud ehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghr vghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C15573060074; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 00:22:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting To: ietf@ietf.org References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <8c144ffb-ca56-4a80-a994-9b8002eac17b@network-heretics.com> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 00:22:55 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 05:23:00 -0000 On 11/28/19 11:33 AM, John C Klensin wrote: > Hi. I realize it is very late, probably too late, to be > complaining about this, but my clear recollection was that, when > the v3 project was started, the community was promised that, > while the authoritative/ canonical/ archival format would shift > to the XML and fully-functional HTML and PDF format (not just > HTML and PDF produced from plain text forms) would become > available, the plain text format would be preserved sufficiently > that tools [1] that were designed for, and used with, RFCs for > the last 40-odd years would continue to work and work equally > well [2]. FWIW, I also recall this promise, at least being made verbally. I hope it's not too late to fix this. Keith From nobody Thu Nov 28 21:53:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 469F912010D for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 21:53:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SMvYw180tGRa for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 21:53:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-001b2d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-001b2d01.pphosted.com [148.163.156.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B73212004A for ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 21:53:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0187473.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-001b2d01.pphosted.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id xAT5nvb6189262 for ; 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Fri, 29 Nov 2019 05:53:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from b03ledav004.gho.boulder.ibm.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3CAB7805C for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 05:53:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (unknown [9.27.200.19]) by b03ledav004.gho.boulder.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 05:53:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id xAT5r5kO017414 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 00:53:06 -0500 Received: (from narten@localhost) by rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id xAT5r5u6017344 for ietf@ietf.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 00:53:05 -0500 From: narten@us.ibm.com Message-Id: <201911290553.xAT5r5u6017344@rotala.raleigh.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 00:53:05 -0500 To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Weekly posting summary for ietf@ietf.org User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.5 7/5/10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.95,18.0.572 definitions=2019-11-29_01:2019-11-29,2019-11-29 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=13 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1015 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=724 phishscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1910280000 definitions=main-1911290050 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 05:53:14 -0000 Total of 37 messages in the last 7 days. script run at: Fri 29 Nov 2019 12:53:03 AM EST Messages | Bytes | Who --------+------+--------+----------+------------------------ 8.11% | 3 | 7.77% | 40114 | sullivan@isoc.org 8.11% | 3 | 7.14% | 36864 | sayrer@gmail.com 5.41% | 2 | 7.27% | 37496 | leifj@mnt.se 2.70% | 1 | 8.56% | 44144 | kaduk@mit.edu 5.41% | 2 | 4.95% | 25538 | julian.reschke@gmx.de 5.41% | 2 | 4.82% | 24894 | moore@network-heretics.com 5.41% | 2 | 4.74% | 24433 | john-ietf@jck.com 5.41% | 2 | 4.30% | 22207 | brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com 5.41% | 2 | 3.73% | 19268 | johnl@taugh.com 5.41% | 2 | 3.61% | 18651 | paul.hoffman@vpnc.org 2.70% | 1 | 3.87% | 19981 | rystephenson@gmail.com 2.70% | 1 | 3.74% | 19282 | shuaiizhao@tencent.com 2.70% | 1 | 3.72% | 19192 | tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com 2.70% | 1 | 3.46% | 17833 | rlb@ipv.sx 2.70% | 1 | 3.08% | 15867 | petithug@acm.org 2.70% | 1 | 3.04% | 15704 | claudio.allocchio@garr.it 2.70% | 1 | 2.73% | 14106 | jyasskin=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org 2.70% | 1 | 2.55% | 13176 | narten@us.ibm.com 2.70% | 1 | 2.50% | 12892 | phill@hallambaker.com 2.70% | 1 | 2.44% | 12609 | fenton@bluepopcorn.net 2.70% | 1 | 2.26% | 11674 | bclaise@cisco.com 2.70% | 1 | 2.10% | 10810 | aaron.falk@gmail.com 2.70% | 1 | 2.07% | 10688 | jmh@joelhalpern.com 2.70% | 1 | 2.03% | 10499 | jared@puck.nether.net 2.70% | 1 | 1.89% | 9756 | chromatix99@gmail.com 2.70% | 1 | 1.61% | 8308 | cabo@tzi.org --------+------+--------+----------+------------------------ 100.00% | 37 |100.00% | 515986 | Total From nobody Fri Nov 29 06:31:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 110FB1207FD; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 06:31:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.105 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.105 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cJ9hswxWWX-R; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 06:31:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa3.jck.com (unknown [65.175.133.137]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A941D12016E; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 06:31:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from hp5.int.jck.com ([198.252.137.153] helo=JcK-HP5.jck.com) by bsa3.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1iahIX-0004oO-8M; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 09:31:05 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 09:31:00 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Julian Reschke , Steffen Nurpmeso , ietf@ietf.org cc: art@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <725e1fd3-5af6-02f1-3a81-763797b8222c@gmx.de> References: <5A8862BB0F82FECBBF737CC6@JcK-HP5.jck.com> <725e1fd3-5af6-02f1-3a81-763797b8222c@gmx.de> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 14:31:12 -0000 --On Friday, 29 November, 2019 06:01 +0100 Julian Reschke wrote: >... >> Well, causing old tools, even non-public tools, to not work as >> they did before and without changes to those tools is a >> disruptive change. >> ... > > John, with all due respect, there's a reason I asked, so for > me this > question definitively is not the "wrong" question. > When we had these discussions many years ago, the assumption > was that > tools that operate on plain text RFCs would strip pagination > first (or > ignore it altogether) before doing what they need to do next. > I would > like to understand whether this assumption was wrong, and how > *exactly* > tools now break. Ok, that is fair. As can't speak for others but, as I think I said in my earlier note, some of my tools do searches on "[Page". I don't remember why but suspect it may have had to do with skipping over boilerplate or the like when those formats were changing. I don't know if my tools have other sensitivities (see below) and won't know until I try to use them and see what (if anything) breaks or do a careful code search. I'm also not claiming that it would be hard to change those tools --I just don't know without looking -- just that making me (and others) spend time adapting is possibly not in the best interests of the IETF if the total amount of time someone can spend on IETF work is limited and that adaptation time takes away from doing technical work. >... >> That is certainly what 7994 says. To me, the important >> question is whether publication in that (and other) documents >> is sufficient to warn the community about changes that may be >> incompatible with tools or working procedures used by >> contributors. If the answer is "yes", then every one of us is >> responsible for being thoroughly familiar with every RFC or >> announcement that might affect IETF procedures, publications, >> and other ways in which we do things so there is an >> opportunity to raise timely objections. I don't think we >> want to go there but should instead assume that people in the >> community should be warned by explicit questions and requests >> for consensus before incompatible changes are made. YMMD, of >> course, >> ... > > Heather has sent out mails, published FAQs, explained things > at the > plenary, and had a poster at the RFC desk for a long time. I > would say > this was hard to miss. Most of those messages have said that v3 is coming, there are big changes, throughput of the Production Center is likely to slow down. And, fwiw, I've seen the "RFC desk" twice in about three years and, for personal (but IAB/IETF-induced) reasons, have been somewhat tuned out). AFAICT, none of those messages have clearly said "if you are dependent on pagination and/or per-page headers or footer, get over it", at least without having that information buried (however unintentionally) in a lot of material that was basically noise. > PS: I have many other issues with the V3 switch, mainly that > we are now publishing "canonical" versions in a undocumented > and un-reviewed format. In comparison to that, the changes in > the produced text format currently seem to be a minor issue. What seemed to be a high likelihood of something like this happening was one of several reasons why some of us were concerned about, and opposed to, making the XML format the canonical/archival one. In this case, that concern was that, once actual deployment started, the community would discover a need to make adjustments to what was basically an untested specification. The need to debug something that had previously been tested only among the developers and other very interested parties and to make adjustments as the code was developed and evolved should come as a surprise to no one with any experience in programming or product deployment. Having the documentation be somewhat out of synch with that is no surprise either. Whether it is a minor detail or not depends on how the community reacts to the change. As I understand the announcements that have been made, people have the option of submitting text and having the Production Center sort of the details. So, suppose that, either because of the interactions with existing tools or because v3 is a someone-undocumented or under-documented moving target, some of us drop back to preparing documents using nroff (or one of its descendants), MS Word, or text directly and then submit the text files? You may know things that I don't, but I'd assume that would either require much more staff in the Production Center or would slow document throughput to a trickle for a long time. I would consider that a much more major issue that either the tools issue or the undocumented and un-reviewed format ones that feed into it. As usual, YMMD. john From nobody Fri Nov 29 08:13:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB0A212099A for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 08:13:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4Au1wW0PX8Hx for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 08:13:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDBAA12098D for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 08:13:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62E44229D6; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 11:13:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 29 Nov 2019 11:13:30 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=llmlp0rZJiNwBxgbSd4KuhjFWvFKnaYkz/C2/JpLX YU=; b=CwUu2FVbrulkbmaG3kLaW0ENVcNr6letQ0ypHW3+YoKG1YPQATCHJRFlo aUsQjcE0YIZM+oAz6eEBTg2k8E/sAa7RToSJPTAIH91x4pN3DT+96MB1o/i5cpGm vW4uL8kWxYy8hPd/EWoX+yP5BpRL8zHCLFC4OequyDbtUwu/Q9+9fqQAQjY26wiz 8sxrOE0RuVUdRRvsJiYPhJZKDTUbm614WCs0D/KU9wroGkahBs25V5vCQoKwLwRj T2vUkZTSDfOM3TjJC8vNyC9GW6Nvj8QR6w+Yo+RZKtTvDvnxjuiov6zepsqfEU5P TOO5zC0nMEbeFkFf7nbcHN+mGLZtw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudeiledgkeefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrud ehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghr vghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id E75F2306010D; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 11:13:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting To: ietf@ietf.org References: <5A8862BB0F82FECBBF737CC6@JcK-HP5.jck.com> <725e1fd3-5af6-02f1-3a81-763797b8222c@gmx.de> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 11:13:28 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <725e1fd3-5af6-02f1-3a81-763797b8222c@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 16:13:35 -0000 On 11/29/19 12:01 AM, Julian Reschke wrote: > When we had these discussions many years ago, the assumption was that > tools that operate on plain text RFCs would strip pagination first (or > ignore it altogether) before doing what they need to do next. I would > like to understand whether this assumption was wrong, and how *exactly* > tools now break. Yes, the assumption was wrong. And it's not possible to enumerate exactly how all of the tools everyone is using now break.   But more importantly, that's the wrong question to ask. Many of us realize that when we revise deployed protocols, it's better to NOT to make assumptions about which obscure features of deployed protocols people depend on.   Instead we try to maintain strict compatibility when possible, because we realize that we can't reliably know about all of the assumptions that are embedded in existing implementations.    Sometimes it's necessary to break strict compatibility, but arguments of the form "nobody depends on feature X" are always dubious and should be interpreted as red flags. For better or worse, the legacy text RFC format is a widely deployed protocol.   And while most people these days are probably not using this feature, there are actually quite a few modern printers out there that understand plain text, including form feeds, and also several software programs that paginate text files based on form feeds. (Expecting everyone out there to use Windows is not only incorrect, it's also insulting.) Keith From nobody Fri Nov 29 08:35:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB82E120A1E; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 08:35:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HQ7mEIAuG_Iy; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 08:35:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x443.google.com (mail-wr1-x443.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::443]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93D01120A25; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 08:35:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x443.google.com with SMTP id z3so35900846wru.3; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 08:35:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=AId8iazP5fJe2cxeDN4Ow+x9YK6uUhmDB4lgk1JUYRc=; b=oySlBXejVnyjAnxA+Ldtb++TCv2ZzZ9+AnT2fLtJyGf4r774cPLhzUzs+GO5QvYJrY HWtcCeRuD3EDYuE3O67Ile4xLUjzspSW0NvH5AGzOk5dtIUS+a1iYgrCQ5AWkzYqtopA qL9X0PS3qKediJMizypWTeDF88/O59IOwAkvAF6ih/C8LHszxo3cLexkWOB69gCyvXsT NdcBe0hjxUk4oRWf1YFZ7br3XJmES2ZNl/O+7hgd0tblAaj+P80vtKh/cwJaXWq0r6i6 xlAQZR9LyWyCVWsZCsWFd4IeFDbFQbBWftlu212CgnqKDkExFxL+uJZrIgKC0yleINng +J6Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=AId8iazP5fJe2cxeDN4Ow+x9YK6uUhmDB4lgk1JUYRc=; b=C7uWKGTFtn7b/uN3WpZw093GpMjgt61em3M1axww7vQ45LaReO9Bv2CNVU7AZM2891 PWrKlyV+4jTVygw1H7EYX65A5U+vDdHG7i3dF1gZHa5Zdi4f76h7B80itRuUL4y9BVrs CvPtQu/tiBLjYHsImuyHYyP2Xm261Vu8XMQmf4ss0SzNtvaJToIjDDbYl6r64erswFuK T+7kyEOSY5xR9R89JkI2oUNUzLY/fDhKXNcUtj/vZvf/PBgjEHOFCxo1cTqDSBwm9CYI eicFI+ZJk+At/Gm+U9FzWb3anpa1DfM2vU0hc6gf1sPlH/znYFbzcFtwl6/ofNtrD104 w7NA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVmml7bYMPt3LqAzkNM3/rkg+CFXd41oTJsUcbTFORN4dw3RVAh vedRVaV93Ub1yKUVdr33WdU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwr+Fhuv2o+nTDhjJzgfAdjeZ2JEip6Mh2xtLDfQqFrd7gY+IyEW1TnQ01ZMhTesnE6VfgP1A== X-Received: by 2002:adf:f803:: with SMTP id s3mr33472936wrp.7.1575045328918; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 08:35:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:289f:98c9:af3:443d? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:289f:98c9:af3:443d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d67sm13766547wmd.13.2019.11.29.08.35.26 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 29 Nov 2019 08:35:28 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <95AE48FA-BBBA-40DC-939E-D81B41B73E22@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_205A6B93-4FF4-4CCB-A1BA-F23325EDAF28"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 08:35:22 -0800 In-Reply-To: <136271A4-28AD-4615-AD7E-EB63B95C05C3@tzi.org> Cc: Bob Hinden , John C Klensin , art@ietf.org, RFC Editor , Steffen Nurpmeso , IETF To: Carsten Bormann References: <20191127233129.9829F%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20191128005000.yMa3P%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <08EE9B7B7C15D8F8B5DE6AF5@PSB> <136271A4-28AD-4615-AD7E-EB63B95C05C3@tzi.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 16:35:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_205A6B93-4FF4-4CCB-A1BA-F23325EDAF28 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Carsten, > On Nov 28, 2019, at 8:59 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On Nov 28, 2019, at 17:33, John C Klensin wrote: >>=20 >> So, even if it is too late to reconsider these decisions, I hope >> we can at least be aware of possible negative side effects. >=20 > It is never too late to fix this bug. >=20 > I think the last few months have uncovered a lot of usages for the = plain text form of RFCs, as well as the fact that =E2=80=9Cnobody will = ever look at the plain text now that we have HTML=E2=80=9D is maybe true = for 80 %, but not for 100 %. I think that is about right, I use both html and txt. Html for reading = on the screen, txt for doing comments and markups, excerpts in email, = etc. I have one active document that I converted to V3. I note that the txt = output of XML2RFC produces headers, footers, and page breaks. The other thing I have noticed, since I now have the latest draft = produced by V3 and the previous drafts produced by V2, is that several = things changed that make this transition more difficult than needed. The first I have found was when doing the conversion from V2 to V3, the = default was to expand references, instead of the one line version. = This can be worked around when using the --add-xinclude when doing the conversion. The other was default symbols in lists. These can be worked around by = using the --legacy-list-symbols when running XML2RFC. My point is that in both cases I think the defaults should have been to = make it closer to V2. The current defaults make it harder to deal with = converting an existing in progress draft from V2 to V3. I suspect these = are issues that many will run into when starting to use V3. Thanks, Bob --Apple-Mail=_205A6B93-4FF4-4CCB-A1BA-F23325EDAF28 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl3hSMoACgkQrut0EXfn u6jllQf/QNUt+TV4Icr9DnovWEuw5waPIR5GRlJ+e5y7Q9J2D6YXvA4tO+R0zn4Q UDWch1by9p/68PAQ9ows0Tc+wOB+A0gJz4CT2PFtBqy/dlpk5Tk0Pc8kB81xsA++ H/BH72ZYZqILfe/bj6DbdtNkF6Na3OXXPYZdv9xhqM5ciulo1OqCp9L+DPwK5PUt weGdSIuEBrWv6NTJmh9pz12X1VQF94PuqeiUd/vZAY/V4hqWvZr/G2X+GVl7NDIR GvXjlnVZyxvboybw18cVFQGYPGuloyGydKsBXShv2Fx4xbZVBawhKJ7rled6IVk0 du8iHXhNX9lv0HkHmN+JOnLYJr+oew== =+5TT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_205A6B93-4FF4-4CCB-A1BA-F23325EDAF28-- From nobody Fri Nov 29 09:20:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D213E12088D for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 09:20:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pX5A9IfVy8Gi for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 09:20:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E21A312011D for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 09:20:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1575048027; bh=q68E66djhJdMXU16ErtPEciA0z7Mh864+v/WpWczsxQ=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Lw4CPs+/FoCdRoO9X78IeS948hNtRVofyunRyW8nUDXqb/0/Cf00UHzFq5G98JZsJ 3e/EfjtAk5gHOZSHuO7mGPmanOQ0+s5weUNyH394AlAEJibJ0OvLjkqcG4Qz4u9QgI tbBDHvqHQn0kj6DwYuHTSlgTcsebOMcFrtMhXrO4= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.124] ([217.251.131.11]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MdvmY-1i3KjJ3tiQ-00b2R0; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 18:07:36 +0100 Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting To: Keith Moore , ietf@ietf.org References: <5A8862BB0F82FECBBF737CC6@JcK-HP5.jck.com> <725e1fd3-5af6-02f1-3a81-763797b8222c@gmx.de> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <01eefbde-e519-15a2-69e9-30df008d09f2@gmx.de> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 18:07:32 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:xud+HKl0kLitmnXGRbjTvanm274pR+p3eAb46cUtnMADB//ErD+ /NYTS8NcPqYjui4PbwdFF9RL/lJkBnfEFFIvuQdNF6a5WWdzXK2eEQTBYxWWb97UZA5eakI Wt0I3MzFdH8KdYggbMOe8JxfJX24gZIAhLKN5RzF4NrproRruWf3Mb8B2i69JJ/813TDNLz XOs/NTZk51KwRW4Tvvh2Q== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:QwNYlclic2M=:GTB8mhbLfSvzKEegqFk38w ZNeRlDOgMG8dKv/LWu1bGYiS8nCKBsVgNjoo6PuYdHyKzE/2/eVcSYtx2Ox2UiCnD5G+C20i/ P4YPXKv0Y7aIgPvXzSP58Qg6pPGQjNchpYEnnn7MBi7sRUE49u4B6JAw87rrBp05g/3ajSk+0 IUW74N2itWpu61XqD+0RjfNLxN7KEMZWWX9IuCiWeRZgpKUillcSfRR4fl+gqiNXtNwj2LJ3x LIylspNFr1ucpU+b35prJLHBZLwmksxD0moVFbadCZAGUg+Eh4gK0+Sa6GfaDBlUGpsC2zGdT FkhMVNnBUOV25F6RjFrCXw2W7tWZC+I0uCTBSikAvcKCOLUhXlpc8kY1ojpoAm2lL1OoUaeFg cMFTpuSb/yU7KI9Ga9gWWYqja21CWQNDcMkSowUdxQzHeNOKBgWXscbJz6Io4bju61PqU/l1K mriKFpYtBYVtTp77mcXYwg/GJWQaobMgpqZHXd/9Ot+4Zy5AXLw6GoIMX58nwYw6rrowMl7rH jTVpDzl1bM4e+Z4TWJyCdn9xNxKEVWeKPXgEQg0lxDs63UX6PQs9utuW5awSWTGBewEBS3Pw3 P/fbl0j6uK9xxxqimmYoM89cpIEWvZk5YbCTeg0LpoMo6AH75m7sU2BZ6tm3pKhk+Mm5LGlmr 9Vt2PrDtyIR5Ghs3bcGDNmu9OcE2Si4zabwnErxAekZJvEhAm66S/8YK9loqqMPuyu+XY2LZY K/UDx7k+wnsXT1rO51TXg0wUM3o+Kxrdza/kO1MjsvT2dvvIJ9fQtzFhFDchWsgmZgrH/8BIh vhIwaUUpldyLrrFYiIG8kikRmyZ2okJGLJBQsdCTpGomPei4fJkllzGDLnp6kLSBBQ1hcitEy sgctrTTuAjLB8aftehz6xLVpGC73DQMH78FcVt5qtAaDwO1W2Yy3PutsBE3zz7r/+q7RIkiVZ AcJQ5WsfKEWuGG+Nj7hzeOKYe6M+07ou8djD5PgSpo6Buvu5ble0VxzXrX1guHeCMrehlXjsv 9vdwYBxUeWfquC4gszpU8oo3p6oIwmNKIMPh7YVEPK6IZCUcYnRtoaXDV7uVSWWCVIBgdbryo EUliv59aNpVSFIqAkodrI0RVKUilEGWgWTi9ZgVksq4cJDfU+tyl0ZRsdmeZqmnu5Y0f6jbWh oE8Xg9VkKz4NshvDY2ZinHJQ7Tz1/EFtyEiaxremX6Fh2eTNhqq73afgt6c9f4/F2ze5XMRf8 +1Pc3qrzhx92HEzesMfLRj5q6H3d9o4IAhjHcYCeJ1y1uCo3WKlbnJWLpNJQ= Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 17:20:32 -0000 On 29.11.2019 17:13, Keith Moore wrote: > On 11/29/19 12:01 AM, Julian Reschke wrote: > >> When we had these discussions many years ago, the assumption was that >> tools that operate on plain text RFCs would strip pagination first (or >> ignore it altogether) before doing what they need to do next. I would >> like to understand whether this assumption was wrong, and how *exactly* >> tools now break. > > Yes, the assumption was wrong. FWIW, I think this is something the RSE should answer. From my recollection: 1) We did not require the new implementation to do proper pagination, because we didn't want people to refer to page numbers in RFCs anymore. Keeping them would be encouraging that practice, and would be in conflict with the goal for RFCs to be paginable (is that an English word?) according to their preference. (Device, paper size, font size etc) 2) We also expected that pagination in the plain text output would require complexity in the formatter, and we wanted to avoid that. That point is moot now, as the developer decided to implement it anyway. So if you actually want a plain text RFC with "proper" pagination, take the "canonical" XML and run it through xml2rfc with the proper options. > And it's not possible to enumerate exactly how all of the tools everyone > is using now break. =C2=A0 But more importantly, that's the wrong questi= on to > ask. > > Many of us realize that when we revise deployed protocols, it's better > to NOT to make assumptions about which obscure features of deployed > protocols people depend on.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Instead we try to maintain stric= t > compatibility when possible, because we realize that we can't reliably > know about all of the assumptions that are embedded in existing > implementations.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Sometimes it's necessary to break str= ict > compatibility, but arguments of the form "nobody depends on feature X" > are always dubious and should be interpreted as red flags. > > For better or worse, the legacy text RFC format is a widely deployed > protocol.=C2=A0=C2=A0 And while most people these days are probably not = using this > feature, there are actually quite a few modern printers out there that > understand plain text, including form feeds, and also several software > programs that paginate text files based on form feeds. For me, printing plain text RFCs never ever made sense, because on DIN A4, they leave ~25% of the page unused. So please don't assume everybody uses letter-sized paper. I also don't quite get why you are mentioning printers at all. Are you saying you can't print the HTML variant? > (Expecting everyone out there to use Windows is not only incorrect, it's > also insulting.) Not sure what this has to do with the operating system. In any case, this really sounds like the comeback of a discussion we had ~7 years ago (with probably thousands of emails), leading to the publication of RFC 6949. Best regards, Julian From nobody Fri Nov 29 09:29:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0EF71208A1 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 09:29:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a31UzD5_mojR for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 09:29:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D036012011D for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 09:29:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.116] (p548DC893.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.200.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 47PhM70jSTzyNR; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 18:29:07 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <01eefbde-e519-15a2-69e9-30df008d09f2@gmx.de> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 18:29:06 +0100 Cc: Keith Moore , ietf@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 596741344.8178951-05a56fecc9aae382282c53a264ed7e7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <5A8862BB0F82FECBBF737CC6@JcK-HP5.jck.com> <725e1fd3-5af6-02f1-3a81-763797b8222c@gmx.de> <01eefbde-e519-15a2-69e9-30df008d09f2@gmx.de> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 17:29:11 -0000 On Nov 29, 2019, at 18:07, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > In any case, this really sounds like the comeback of a discussion we = had > ~7 years ago (with probably thousands of emails), leading to the > publication of RFC 6949. Yes! We are now starting to gain actual experience with the brave new world = instead of just random guessing how that will feel (with a heavy dose of = process confabulation at the time). In software, obtaining end-user = experience generally leads to iterations. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Nov 29 09:46:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35F54120058 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 09:46:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fKq7aJ7eAak0 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 09:46:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38C1812003F for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 09:46:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C30722A06; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 12:46:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 29 Nov 2019 12:46:12 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=bB1qYM/5hRzT59bFdYo7zURaE6KOgXs7kkpZsAMo2 8M=; b=rmkoca93mUWLfpw3D9bsi4M8TpU3nNKWdFZiiaQyHjF5/QB33XPpG2ihr RZctE3BBAbHMSsiDPqlfkHRroA3tDSJldQ8aPDJ2kZZXtXXTkdebW8vmQw8MUC0h kAcUpcQLgpNF413OQsLaVIcpSSPUkRjabWzbX1BJQ+S7VyiUVutlWF7P+ec+EcmM AH6CCUFCueLdx6ymrJhafFEiFT4kdo7TlvMRVqj/APYRM+OBh/uLKW0DmYoQL88o Dh/JSVu5x8POjpwVKAqd18+pGd1bnUAJxB77BfrXsejRBnbfOwHlH8oMzMkbIaVp 84go/c4XUVZTZHdfvcBJhm7//rOEQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudeiledguddtudcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtkeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghi thhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtoh hmqeenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrudehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhr ohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhush htvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 233373060115; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 12:46:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting To: Julian Reschke , ietf@ietf.org References: <5A8862BB0F82FECBBF737CC6@JcK-HP5.jck.com> <725e1fd3-5af6-02f1-3a81-763797b8222c@gmx.de> <01eefbde-e519-15a2-69e9-30df008d09f2@gmx.de> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <3d11b3fb-67b0-b69f-68cf-717f048ae278@network-heretics.com> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 12:46:08 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <01eefbde-e519-15a2-69e9-30df008d09f2@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 17:46:16 -0000 On 11/29/19 12:07 PM, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 29.11.2019 17:13, Keith Moore wrote: >> On 11/29/19 12:01 AM, Julian Reschke wrote: >> >>> When we had these discussions many years ago, the assumption was that >>> tools that operate on plain text RFCs would strip pagination first (or >>> ignore it altogether) before doing what they need to do next. I would >>> like to understand whether this assumption was wrong, and how *exactly* >>> tools now break. >> >> Yes, the assumption was wrong. > > FWIW, I think this is something the RSE should answer. > > From my recollection: > > 1) We did not require the new implementation to do proper pagination, > because we didn't want people to refer to page numbers in RFCs anymore. I can sort of see that, because if different people are referring to different versions of the RFC, the page numbers don't work.   I definitely prefer using section numbers for reference.   At the same time, unpaginated RFCs cause problems other than those caused by omitting page numbers. > 2) We also expected that pagination in the plain text output would > require complexity in the formatter, and we wanted to avoid that. That > point is moot now, as the developer decided to implement it anyway. > > So if you actually want a plain text RFC with "proper" pagination, take > the "canonical" XML and run it through xml2rfc with the proper options. Sure, but now I have to go through extra steps, and I have to treat new RFCs differently than old ones. >> And it's not possible to enumerate exactly how all of the tools everyone >> is using now break.   But more importantly, that's the wrong question to >> ask. >> >> Many of us realize that when we revise deployed protocols, it's better >> to NOT to make assumptions about which obscure features of deployed >> protocols people depend on.   Instead we try to maintain strict >> compatibility when possible, because we realize that we can't reliably >> know about all of the assumptions that are embedded in existing >> implementations.    Sometimes it's necessary to break strict >> compatibility, but arguments of the form "nobody depends on feature X" >> are always dubious and should be interpreted as red flags. >> >> For better or worse, the legacy text RFC format is a widely deployed >> protocol.   And while most people these days are probably not using this >> feature, there are actually quite a few modern printers out there that >> understand plain text, including form feeds, and also several software >> programs that paginate text files based on form feeds. > > For me, printing plain text RFCs never ever made sense, because on DIN > A4, they leave ~25% of the page unused. So please don't assume everybody > uses letter-sized paper. Oh, I don't.   But even if, say, you print RFCs 2-up sideways on A4 paper, the pagination is still useful.  (Besides, one person's wasted space on the page is another person's ample space for notes.) Printing RFCs makes a lot of sense to me, in some circumstances.   It's much easier to make notes on paper than on an HTML or PDF document.   I can read paper more easily in coffee shops or on airplanes than I can on a laptop.   If I'm writing code based on an RFC, I can print out the RFC and refer to it without the RFC taking up screen space.   On the other hand, a great many more documents can be carried on a laptop than in paper form.   So, I routinely use different RFC formats depending on the circumstances. > I also don't quite get why you are mentioning printers at all. Are you > saying you can't print the HTML variant? I never use the HTML variants produced by the RSE.  The type is too small, the sans serif typeface is less legible than Courier. On a normal width browser window the small type used makes the lines too long to read.   And yes, I can narrow the browser window to make the lines shorter, but the result "looks" wrong and then I'm constantly resizing the browser if I need to view other pages.   The "HTMLized" RFCs produced by the IETF tools are a bit better for my purposes.   It's not that I have a great love for fixed-pitch type or paginated text on a scrolling display, but the RSE HTML versions aren't really making the best use of either HTML or the browser environment. I also don't want to use a web browser to read RFCs in most circumstances, because web browsers are themselves pretty dysfunctional for document review and not great even for occasional reference when writing specifications or code.   They waste too much screen space, they make it cumbersome to arrange one's screen space effectively.   Also with a typical desktop, when you click on an editor or word processor to write code or make notes, it often buries the very browser window you're referring to, unless maybe you have so much screen space available that you can completely avoid any overlap of windows.  Of course, it's not the fault of the RSE that modern desktops and web browsers are so dysfunctional, and web browsers aren't all they're cracked up to be. >> (Expecting everyone out there to use Windows is not only incorrect, it's >> also insulting.) > > Not sure what this has to do with the operating system. All of the other modern desktop OSes I've used have had little or no problem dealing with ordinary text files, even if the default end-of-line convention was different.  Windows is the only one I've seen that was gratuitously, and aggressively, incompatible. Keith From nobody Fri Nov 29 09:54:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFA2212085C for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 09:54:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CXGQNQhZYdWG for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 09:54:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x233.google.com (mail-oi1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B37091201AA for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 09:54:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x233.google.com with SMTP id 128so18657886oih.4 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 09:54:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=58TixHUksr4+djQJ03a3wiiCnI3TF0j6I08GAKPUHkI=; b=BvZC+ITi286tCsN1PXMkMWN2y7IbIyHtnRE7pBoTlO8CN/pNBkBculRaZuGrFnQZyH 5hmrfYag1Ta3KpqmGPkuUDAXcIHb2i35FV46tabwgkbD7jK4660UqTqepK64dY/Vi718 fN790YlTorLQzb3yWp1aZZe89fbd6G4KwEyun+ArGmbIPZYN+Uz0ud9wwTlb+naYXAUt /8tYpc06j6Qd4RTHRaH/Fn8fVudW73+GfVRfPO+KsodLBBx2QHrjDPkXT9raE9/wwbP6 LF4j1MO986H7Q7fwk4dDJXiNF4bGHrzedCdB24B598AZxnfJkj0ihAS5q8IxIylrZXrK +tmA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=58TixHUksr4+djQJ03a3wiiCnI3TF0j6I08GAKPUHkI=; b=GJ6mHLaelM4IMYfUTux1CA2QxSZ4q/tsxzt0gkhrI12ilOYsjz97M7Xw2xOnQ1A2bI VytKL4CMwtWOH2roEvwo0I5QjP+W6noNK1PU3u83vS4AiVplI5O/FC84TERgGF8KboNq rRo8xdxtCEVKGIj8575VGKP8VHb0/vZ52vKftL0pFKvGoR42wjhqZmd9ZEwMaQqVe1f7 8DQKVIOrAN6VHFJK4BprwZjRwIXCByXqzS1BhOmLRG3KJt7twqdVjE5P1zJiNub7xM/4 TeuKsukpHVkTWJLjQmfkA0fc5vYmqcketbTjxW/pGO5YxLgqo0Uo9FQexd2e0EKwtiIY HmHA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUoAl8jhfP5SI1LxCfGD6ftSZKdqqAcKI10rA+32k+uwwzeJqHh Q+h0mIqNPwXMa/KgskfyBF3DeXz31fL7Hl2Sz8I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqykBi2Ix8InFfPNsgGUFH+nsTnYHmAhO8Bsfa/iYvjDwy6RnX4hHnpB1rDwMTqtY9kovwqwsGQj9E7qECKCSyc= X-Received: by 2002:a54:4011:: with SMTP id x17mr1091125oie.52.1575050086860; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 09:54:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Abdussalam Baryun Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 19:54:14 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: "An open letter" signed by some IAB members To: Barry Leiba , ietf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ee4d3405987fecfc" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 17:54:51 -0000 --000000000000ee4d3405987fecfc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Barry and Ietf, IMO any letter should be clear/careful about objectives and misunderstandings, more below; > On 19 Nov 2019, at 2:42 pm, Barry Leiba ; wrote: > > Perhaps some of you have seen that Ted Hardie posted an open letter on > the Hong Kong high court=E2=80=99s injunction on Internet speech: > https://medium.com/@ted.ietf/an-open-letter-on-the-hong-kong-high-court-inj= unction-on-internet-speech-7f0048df2f54 > The letter is signed by Ted and is co-signed by three other IAB > members, each signing as an individual: the letter is not from the IAB > and doesn=E2=80=99t claim to be. It needs to clarify that it is not signed by IAB or by any special committee, > > Nevertheless, note that all signatories identify themselves as > =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D, and three of the f= our do not > list their company affiliations. This has two effects: > > 1. By being signed by four IAB members who are identified primarily as > IAB members, the letter *appears* to be from the IAB. I have passed > this by three non-IETF friends, asking them who they think the letter > is from, and all three said, =E2=80=9CThe Internet Architecture Board.=E2= =80=9D I agree > > 2. By using =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D this wa= y, those > signing the letter are effectively (whether by intent or not) using > their IAB positions to gain credibility for their personal opinions. The letter can be gaining more value by the way it is used not the way it was written. Therefore, who writes it needs to make sure it is used in its right value and not more. > > I think this is wildly inappropriate. I think those of us in IETF > leadership should be scrupulously careful NOT to call out our IETF > affiliations this way unless we are speaking for the organization. I think you have a point, but I think the most important is that they should always state in any letter when it is IAB and when it is not IAB. They need to show the IAB voice and value or no value. > The fact that the letter refers to things that have been published > with IAB consensus doesn=E2=80=99t change the fact that the *letter* does= not > have IAB consensus, and we must be careful not to give the impression > that it does. Agree > > I=E2=80=99ve discussed this with Ted, who thinks that there=E2=80=99s not= hing wrong > with how the letter was signed and posted. I makes misunderstanding and may be misused. It is better that if any member writes any thing just writes small statement saying this is not IAB, therefore, the letter was wrong in not mentioning that it was not from IAB. > That disturbs me. I tried > to let it go, but I=E2=80=99m sufficiently bothered by it that I felt the= need > to take it to the community. This is that. Ted tells me that all IAB > members were invited to co-sign the letter, and that none brought up a > concern about the use of the =E2=80=9CMember, IAB=E2=80=9D affiliation. Thanks for this message. IMHO, if leaders sign statements they should always think first what they are not saying before what they are saying, because they are leaders and they may be used wrongly. > > As you think about this and =E2=80=94 I hope =E2=80=94 discuss it, please= keep this in mind: > > - I=E2=80=99m NOT talking about the content of the message and whether I = do or > don=E2=80=99t agree with it. That=E2=80=99s not the point. I hope that = as we discuss > this we do NOT go into the content, the politics, and so on. Let=E2=80= =99s > please keep this highly charged issue out of IETF discussions. > > - I=E2=80=99m NOT looking to beat Ted up here; what I want is for this no= t to > happen again, and I hope the ensuing discussion supports that. Yes I hope it can be avoided by a new simple procedure. Many like discussions because we want to make things simple, better and with best used. Best Regards, AB --000000000000ee4d3405987fecfc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Barry and Ietf,

IMO any letter should be clear/careful about objectives and misunde= rstandings, more below;
> On 19 Nov 2019, at 2:42 pm, Barr= y Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>; wrote:
>
>= ; Perhaps some of you have seen that Ted Hardie posted an open letter on> the Hong Kong high court=E2=80=99s injunction on Internet speech:
= > <= font color=3D"#0066cc">https://medium.com/@ted.ietf/an-open-letter-on-the-h= ong-kong-high-court-injunction-on-internet-speech-7f0048df2f54> The letter is signed by Ted and is co-signed by three other IAB
&= gt; members, each signing as an individual: the letter is not from the IAB<= br>> and doesn=E2=80=99t claim to be.

It needs = to clarify that it is not signed by IAB or by any special committee,
<= div>
>
> Nevertheless, note that all signatories identify them= selves as
> =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Architecture Board=E2=80=9D, an= d three of the four do not
> list their company affiliations.=C2=A0 T= his has two effects:
>
> 1. By being signed by four IAB member= s who are identified primarily as
> IAB members, the letter *appears*= to be from the IAB.=C2=A0 I have passed
> this by three non-IETF fri= ends, asking them who they think the letter
> is from, and all three = said, =E2=80=9CThe Internet Architecture Board.=E2=80=9D

I agree
>
> 2. By using =E2=80=9CMember, Internet Archi= tecture Board=E2=80=9D this way, those
> signing the letter are effec= tively (whether by intent or not) using
> their IAB positions to gain= credibility for their personal opinions.

The lett= er=C2=A0can be gaining more value by the way it is=C2=A0used not the way it= was written. Therefore, who writes it needs to make sure it is used in its= right value and not more.

>
> I think this is wild= ly inappropriate.=C2=A0 I think those of us in IETF
> leadership shou= ld be scrupulously careful NOT to call out our IETF
> affiliations th= is way unless we are speaking for the organization.

I think you have a point, but I think the most important is that they sho= uld always state in any letter when it is IAB and when it is not IAB.
=
They need to show the IAB voice and value or no value.

&= gt; The fact that the letter refers to things that have been published
&= gt; with IAB consensus doesn=E2=80=99t change the fact that the *letter* do= es not
> have IAB consensus, and we must be careful not to give the i= mpression
> that it does.

Agree
>
= > I=E2=80=99ve discussed this with Ted, who thinks that there=E2=80=99s = nothing wrong
> with how the letter was signed and posted.=C2=A0

I makes misunderstanding and may be misused. It is bet= ter that if any member writes any thing just writes small statement saying = this is not IAB, therefore, the letter was wrong in not mentioning that it = was not from IAB.

>=C2=A0That disturbs me.=C2= =A0 I tried
> to let it go, but I=E2=80=99m sufficiently bothered by = it that I felt the need
> to take it to the community.=C2=A0 This is = that.=C2=A0 Ted tells me that all IAB
> members were invited to co-si= gn the letter, and that none brought up a
> concern about the use of = the =E2=80=9CMember, IAB=E2=80=9D affiliation.

Tha= nks for this message. IMHO, if=C2=A0leaders sign statements they should alw= ays think first=C2=A0what they are not saying before what they are saying, = because they are leaders and they may be used wrongly.=C2=A0=C2=A0
> =
> As you think about this and =E2=80=94 I hope =E2=80=94 discuss it,= please keep this in mind:
>
> - I=E2=80=99m NOT talking about= the content of the message and whether I do or
> don=E2=80=99t agree= with it.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s not the point.=C2=A0 I hope that as we discu= ss
> this we do NOT go into the content, the politics, and so on.=C2= =A0 Let=E2=80=99s
> please keep this highly charged issue out of IETF= discussions.
>
> - I=E2=80=99m NOT looking to beat Ted up her= e; what I want is for this not to
> happen again, and I hope the ensu= ing discussion supports that.

Yes I hope it can be= avoided by a new=C2=A0simple procedure. Many=C2=A0like discussions because= we want to make things simple, better and=C2=A0with best used.
<= br>
Best Regards,

AB
--000000000000ee4d3405987fecfc-- From nobody Fri Nov 29 10:30:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39769120828 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 10:30:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CEN_udItxbo7 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 10:30:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x234.google.com (mail-oi1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3020B1208AB for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 10:30:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x234.google.com with SMTP id o12so26760559oic.9 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 10:30:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=msz+YCPs9l6eBYIFDW/S4oaPKJd78KPIFdTG4KAX7PM=; b=q0xo7ep45a1TKbm9jkSHSFt4ccOZXvS4YtvyoJpj/WVRaKxbYulLAyzgEpr0V4ogAY WZfR8Cl0LzpgU3vNTshNhSCIy4cfQNAQcEYcSlDaahREUqJma/29u25v//U0mtFikBYb eNGAdm+1V9TZiq/Z6Bn1ylkFBpZ/FUTYNDnI3Ti+p3NyZ33Om5i6lQSu9t2BlYN3EP4d MIrNrxTikQa7p8I4UUBcTiAL7X8JFrnMQcfyfRWTkl5aYEbFw0XrK09W6ou6K0SJQqL0 GnXnFansArv2meqB+MecSHiyXCjW3TGbtC2ArdEeUF/tdcKxqmD0YXG/UamGNRcdi7/q NYrA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=msz+YCPs9l6eBYIFDW/S4oaPKJd78KPIFdTG4KAX7PM=; b=XKTo2jANjpKrCzqx11r0h8lMB795RriUn4FGCd8c6ScXDRLgZORR9mAqLAdPiHroqV ERy0snVceJdEilPMr7n/Ylv75GlXxkQyD4F6vmBMPm+bLOxdPAXx7cOvD3ytnhIiM6F/ sBzzsaDMP8Fa9eev4zIZ392oUFJTeWg2KrWoDD7cOXPYZFkPmcirlJrt+74AY3gyWLq/ JPteW8441tD2CCLaEiLx2wfou8R5tC/1+tV9Bsg58dIalLnCuFUiQZ2EoxwV0OmIycOs ao8Cwub8GO3HQq1uSe4mGqa7nT49VkqiKVcvpncG62cPa7Usb4NpE60ranA79u8DU1gV fHxQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUMT8TnHb6XKD5LQWReEnaawLBMELtDyf5FYJ5qCMRIuN2GCN8l 3nh32UNrrITrT2htOEjWFY6tX7RkAilbZPttTRI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwL8yREplHhp7OIlDwsRKYfw4hKcceSnLSfCMDDNc78ztesSCvMZTUc1/ulyrZkKVNm89+WPTiz8E23jvcmH5g= X-Received: by 2002:a54:4011:: with SMTP id x17mr1207983oie.52.1575052237397; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 10:30:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Abdussalam Baryun Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 20:30:04 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews To: alexey.melnikov@isode.com, ietf , rwilton@cisco.com Cc: Michael Richardson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001ce1c60598806d51" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 18:30:40 -0000 --0000000000001ce1c60598806d51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Alex and Ralph, The quality will never increase if authors are not answering positively to discussions in their WG, however, I always blame first WG-authors and second WG chair and then thirdly the AD, for low quality of discussions/drafts/works. > From: ietf ; On Behalf Of Ralph Droms > Sent: 06 November 2019 11:03 > To: Alexey Melnikov ; > Cc: Michael Richardson ;; ietf ; > Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews > > > > > On Nov 6, 2019, at 5:34 AM, Alexey Melnikov ; > wrote: > > > > Hi Michael, > > > > On 05/11/2019 21:50, Michael Richardson wrote: > >> > >> Brian E Carpenter ; wrote: > >>> If we want the IESG job to be more reasonably sized, we have to take > >>> work away from the ADs. I agree >>>>As far as I can see, that means taking away > >>> their duty of acting as final reviewers. I don't want to name names > >>> because I don't think the ADs are to be blamed individually, but > >>> some of them spend *enormous* effort on detailed reviews. The WG Chair/manager is blamed, they need to encourage discussions/works and deep investigation before submitting drafts to AD. The WG Chair should push WG and authors for best reviews and cooperation. > >> > >> +1 > >> > >> I think that there is a lack of trust by ADs of the various > directorates. > > > > Other ADs have commented on this, but I think I need to repeat what > > they said and expand on it. > > > > Results are vary varied. Some are quite good (e.g. Gen-Art) and others > > really depend on reviewer. ADs responsible for Directorates are faces > > with the choice of firing half of their Directorates (which has some > > rather unfortunate consequences) and/or raise the bar on who should be > > allowed to join. We already struggle to recruit people at all levels > > of our organization. It is easy to know when the draft is ready, YOU just check if there was many discussions on the WG list, if non then send it back to WG to work. > > > > Best Regards, > > Alexey > > We shouldn't be depending on last-minute quality checks to maintain the > quality of our output. Agree >Working groups should be producing documents that > are ready to publish, and develop trust that their documents are high > quality. Agree, the authors need to answer all questions on the list as if all participants are ADs. WG authors reply differently with AD than with WG participant, this needs to change. AB --0000000000001ce1c60598806d51 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Alex and Ralph,

The quali= ty will never increase if authors are not answering positively to discussio= ns in their WG, however, I always blame first WG-authors and second WG chai= r and then thirdly the AD, for low quality of discussions/drafts/works.

> From: i= etf <ietf-bounces@ietf.org>; On Behalf Of Ralph Droms
>= Sent: 06 November 2019 11:03
> To: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melni= kov@isode.com>;
> Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sand= elman.ca>;; ietf <= ietf@ietf.org>;
> Subject: Re: = Quality of Directorate reviews
>
>
>
> > On N= ov 6, 2019, at 5:34 AM, Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com><= /font>;
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Michael,
> &g= t;
> > On 05/11/2019 21:50, Michael Richardson wrote:
> >= >
> >> Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&= gt;; wrote:
> >>> If we want the IESG job to be m= ore reasonably sized, we have to take
> >>> work away from t= he ADs.

I agree

>>>>As far as I= can see, that means taking away
> >>> their duty of acting = as final reviewers. I don't want to name names
> >>> bec= ause I don't think the ADs are to be blamed individually, but
> &= gt;>> some of them spend *enormous* effort on detailed reviews.


The WG Chair/manager is blamed, they need to = encourage discussions/works and deep investigation before submitting drafts= =C2=A0to AD. The WG Chair should push WG and authors for best reviews and c= ooperation.


> >>
> >> += 1
> >>
> >> I think that there is a lack of trust b= y ADs of the various
> directorates.
> >
> > Other = ADs have commented on this, but I think I need to repeat what
> > = they said and expand on it.
> >
> > Results are vary vari= ed. Some are quite good (e.g. Gen-Art) and others
> > really depen= d on reviewer. ADs responsible for Directorates are faces
> > with= the choice of firing half of their Directorates (which has some
> &g= t; rather unfortunate consequences) and/or raise the bar on who should be> > allowed to join. We already struggle to recruit people at all l= evels
> > of our organization.


It is easy t= o know when the draft is ready, YOU just check if there was many discussion= s on the WG list, if non then send it back to WG to work.

>= ; >
> > Best Regards,
> > Alexey
>
> We s= houldn't be depending on last-minute quality checks to maintain the
= > quality of our output.=C2=A0

Agree

>Working groups should be producing documents that
&g= t; are ready to publish, and develop trust that their documents are high> quality.

Agree, the authors need to answer a= ll questions on the list as if all participants are ADs. WG authors reply d= ifferently with AD than with WG participant, this needs to change.

AB
--0000000000001ce1c60598806d51-- From nobody Fri Nov 29 11:03:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41FC9120026 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 11:03:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RZsIyKK0znN2 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 11:03:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A56212003F for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 11:03:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1575054185; bh=vVCEBFG+pG7QjvvkoToaXTBYJ7CodoolLRpxGD+x3zg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=FtpLRvF1NfDPnZjKuX1m6MBNCHk3eYohd8BlK6YZVgGjpo0yydo3ZVZuGpllzSt/1 pSFRFOG3Urwtc+HHpb4OjmQ707ZkvNQuhxtLlt8y5snouP35x15iDyWxBXigHyYw1Y duWdB37JLQbjqiYjE9Qhtd91TDHyJfGC5qN9oRR0= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.124] ([217.251.131.11]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MpDNf-1i0r9q2e0l-00qfky; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 20:03:05 +0100 Subject: Re: [art] New RFCs text formatting To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Keith Moore , ietf@ietf.org References: <5A8862BB0F82FECBBF737CC6@JcK-HP5.jck.com> <725e1fd3-5af6-02f1-3a81-763797b8222c@gmx.de> <01eefbde-e519-15a2-69e9-30df008d09f2@gmx.de> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <0df83d93-d1eb-6bd8-875e-4bc8934f494d@gmx.de> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 20:03:02 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Ju5eifzsCeQvcqB7o9dJA+GwFIUVPg2g+A2LUpUerKvrqh3P45x tWpLxbiBjqOIoJHXuDoDUjuLhYGvilq37UmgocJhZsG48B2zDZbxaUqwEDXMxlecfcC8qpM XdmGzmzwAxvfH4PHfAJT2bQsy36Aq/CpGYVtVkX97H4yqmzZwGb65/CAma9pulrMUj22ryw d2NY9Xv3GaKuUlT3mPGUg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:5SuKh5kTOA0=:R99poQac4n5/2ivGayFD43 IvQI106l6tuGAJ9TPo5VjY79KXe3WxnAcx0KuiazVZ5v5dsER9aDL3ak1vaX2Dt5aRuhzWuME PqKXFst2MuRHvi//1tWYiw8sYnwuelEC+FgUo5mPTLpSq2/HHxdRNxZfq508qNW3UmF9FavJq 6f4qGsqCri+Vf00qNGQoe6wxfRpBbHEOyy8LRLTZXXACS5nWOupPhBt0NX4X3zwXsFfDJTSs6 JHXglVs2+cMdjH3tyKqbdyUQFJPR1eKRG+GY1drRoZS7VaM9CQhEzSt73hmLp77KyixH6oGm6 Eapkr5e8OtiWU5E7BbHMYk+f3n3+bJdxEPfmlya9NENagU6KjzMypM4fcki+TienWU/YEHEhZ VQ7l2XPH+C+JrzyeUm6ttghc7nFK0L1o3uP7CBYW0HZLBzlbPNsB05bs8mUZC4hFzCZCE58oQ D2oU1xot3v3crPsSk8Jqa3RgKM60dGwgLNZv9WtfUArv7JLCUyf9wz2RBEKr4/uvHmj9MrTJf 2gD+Xl2a9meNBvQUJFaWW2KL3Pcm69627VlJLo8ug6VSKYGGICw97cF1u0aBWcz5DsskNgIOm XUbIzVbUIHEdb+LxVH75bh9pEHK06JZkAPMBCtJkRF3+2dWb/VHp96u1qV1hIni9ivmZnbXwD Z5L4arDfIqDhvQd6DpftQUkgwGgrjwWY/o2PJSQ1ZeU3QLpuUsplY1W1Vfki3acNlMsxwftuv DVuwWoIyFDeHKx5LXeSSttwre4lEWhsLkAPAtmxM4zEIqjJQZkpWx6iMzPy52os3cufo2DqJR jaEs+C8p/NMRqkCjIBzKURKP4tWjjzvIwv7FoRb48YS2A6TMg++tpqz7cm4ea5wNN9zN/3cXW vMxr1aHAy5okSbKt964qSiiw7+fDFx9NuP85g5Va7wxIFSl48sUrFZKqP0ZlJ+LOR4bnzNaJD noghjian0q0CVBTv+bcpK1agTDVxKYqqXAFpKkc+WuDs48KjMMxuZW45juKFl5Sq68HB7udaF qYvA26L1C5FidOLc0C/C4pvEZ3CbXXObRYSCAWCHa8Vjo+Mn5AdfqAxQziJLuXeUKJXFe+huN pd228Bfeg5yZAHGrAI7BfDM3pmOljhp+ZVV1imvVaeyMTRpACWlNDYzvvrKJJaZeO+qTooilc IlOooYETRXvIPGus56tzyyxkIvOxKisnWr1MX9DnfZykvTQ5JmOQWwWO4xZIJ5IRuPitSuU9J c5rAwQEZ1q2pPYhgqTI7Ih7vZ1+hc6jfP7MbVsrNN+cro2JHOScUz9kMexmQ= Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 19:03:23 -0000 On 29.11.2019 18:29, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On Nov 29, 2019, at 18:07, Julian Reschke wrote: >> >> In any case, this really sounds like the comeback of a discussion we ha= d >> ~7 years ago (with probably thousands of emails), leading to the >> publication of RFC 6949. > > Yes! > > We are now starting to gain actual experience with the brave new world i= nstead of just random guessing how that will feel (with a heavy dose of pr= ocess confabulation at the time). In software, obtaining end-user experie= nce generally leads to iterations. > ... Yes, the transition takes too much time. It should have been done several years ago, but it's still not finished (despite claims that it is). I really wish that energy would go into finishing the actual format conversion, and not bike-shedding the text format :-). Keep in mind that it's a compromise. At the one extreme there were people asking for no change at all (thus, no non-ASCII). At the other end of the spectrum, people proposed no page-breaking and no line-breaking (seriously). What's currently generated is really very close to what we had before. 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Fri, 29 Nov 2019 16:54:18 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-A34057C4-B63C-4518-80ED-60BC805CCABF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Mark Nottingham Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 08:54:14 +1100 Message-Id: References: Cc: alexey.melnikov@isode.com, ietf , rwilton@cisco.com, Michael Richardson In-Reply-To: To: Abdussalam Baryun X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17B111) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 21:54:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail-A34057C4-B63C-4518-80ED-60BC805CCABF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a lot of evidence that a culture of blame leads to bad engineering o= utcomes.=20 John Allspaw wrote something about this a while back: https://codeascraft.com/2012/05/22/blameless-postmortems/ I think it=E2=80=99d be better for this community to be focused less on bla= me and more on becoming what John refers to as a just culture.=20 Cheers, Sent from my iPhone > On 30 Nov 2019, at 5:30 am, Abdussalam Baryun = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Hi Alex and Ralph, >=20 > The quality will never increase if authors are not answering positively to= discussions in their WG, however, I always blame first WG-authors and secon= d WG chair and then thirdly the AD, for low quality of discussions/drafts/wo= rks. >=20 > > From: ietf ; On Behalf Of Ralph Droms > > Sent: 06 November 2019 11:03 > > To: Alexey Melnikov ; > > Cc: Michael Richardson ;; ietf ; > > Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > > On Nov 6, 2019, at 5:34 AM, Alexey Melnikov ; > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Michael, > > > > > > On 05/11/2019 21:50, Michael Richardson wrote: > > >> > > >> Brian E Carpenter ; wrote: > > >>> If we want the IESG job to be more reasonably sized, we have to take= > > >>> work away from the ADs. >=20 > I agree >=20 > >>>>As far as I can see, that means taking away > > >>> their duty of acting as final reviewers. I don't want to name names > > >>> because I don't think the ADs are to be blamed individually, but > > >>> some of them spend *enormous* effort on detailed reviews. >=20 >=20 > The WG Chair/manager is blamed, they need to encourage discussions/works a= nd deep investigation before submitting drafts to AD. The WG Chair should pu= sh WG and authors for best reviews and cooperation. >=20 >=20 > > >> > > >> +1 > > >> > > >> I think that there is a lack of trust by ADs of the various > > directorates. > > > > > > Other ADs have commented on this, but I think I need to repeat what > > > they said and expand on it. > > > > > > Results are vary varied. Some are quite good (e.g. Gen-Art) and others= > > > really depend on reviewer. ADs responsible for Directorates are faces > > > with the choice of firing half of their Directorates (which has some > > > rather unfortunate consequences) and/or raise the bar on who should be= > > > allowed to join. We already struggle to recruit people at all levels > > > of our organization. >=20 >=20 > It is easy to know when the draft is ready, YOU just check if there was ma= ny discussions on the WG list, if non then send it back to WG to work. >=20 > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > Alexey > >=20 > > We shouldn't be depending on last-minute quality checks to maintain the > > quality of our output.=20 >=20 > Agree >=20 > >Working groups should be producing documents that > > are ready to publish, and develop trust that their documents are high > > quality. >=20 > Agree, the authors need to answer all questions on the list as if all part= icipants are ADs. WG authors reply differently with AD than with WG particip= ant, this needs to change. >=20 > AB --Apple-Mail-A34057C4-B63C-4518-80ED-60BC805CCABF Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a lot of evidence that a culture o= f blame leads to bad engineering outcomes. 

John All= spaw wrote something about this a while back:

I thi= nk it=E2=80=99d be better for this community to be  focused less on bla= me and more on becoming what John refers to as a just culture. 

Cheers,

Sent from my iPhone
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
On 30 Nov 2019, at 5:30 am, Ab= dussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Hi Alex and Ralph,

The quality will never inc= rease if authors are not answering positively to discussions in their WG, ho= wever, I always blame first WG-authors and second WG chair and then thirdly t= he AD, for low quality of discussions/drafts/works.

> From: ietf <ietf-bounces@ietf.= org>; On Behalf Of Ralph Droms
> Sent: 06 November 2019 1= 1:03
> To: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>;
> Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>;; iet= f <ietf@i= etf.org>;
> Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews<= br>>
>
>
> > On Nov 6, 2019, at 5:34 AM, Alexey M= elnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>;
> wrote:
> &= gt;
> > Hi Michael,
> >
> > On 05/11/2019 21:50, M= ichael Richardson wrote:
> >>
> >> Brian E Carpenter= <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; wrote:
> >>&g= t; If we want the IESG job to be more reasonably sized, we have to take
&= gt; >>> work away from the ADs.

=
I agree

>>= >>As far as I can see, that means taking away
> >= >> their duty of acting as final reviewers. I don't want to name names=
> >>> because I don't think the ADs are to be blamed individ= ually, but
> >>> some of them spend *enormous* effort on deta= iled reviews.


The WG Chair/manager is bla= med, they need to encourage discussions/works and deep investigation before s= ubmitting drafts to AD. The WG Chair should push WG and authors for bes= t reviews and cooperation.


> >>
&= gt; >> +1
> >>
> >> I think that there is a la= ck of trust by ADs of the various
> directorates.
> >
>= > Other ADs have commented on this, but I think I need to repeat what> > they said and expand on it.
> >
> > Results are= vary varied. Some are quite good (e.g. Gen-Art) and others
> > rea= lly depend on reviewer. ADs responsible for Directorates are faces
> &= gt; with the choice of firing half of their Directorates (which has some
= > > rather unfortunate consequences) and/or raise the bar on who shoul= d be
> > allowed to join. We already struggle to recruit people at a= ll levels
> > of our organization.


It is eas= y to know when the draft is ready, YOU just check if there was many discussi= ons on the WG list, if non then send it back to WG to work.

&g= t; >
> > Best Regards,
> > Alexey
>
> We s= houldn't be depending on last-minute quality checks to maintain the
> q= uality of our output. 

Agree

>Working groups should be producing documents that
> are r= eady to publish, and develop trust that their documents are high
> qua= lity.

Agree, the authors need to answer all questio= ns on the list as if all participants are ADs. WG authors reply differently w= ith AD than with WG participant, this needs to change.

<= div>AB