wrote: > On Tue, Mar 01, 2022 at 12:17:24AM +0100, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > > A full review should not be necessary. > > > > I wish that were true... > > IMO a full review is necessary, My opinion is different. If I followed your approach, a lot of documents would have been delayed and probably abandoned. I've been involved as author/editor for a number of multi-hundred-page documents. The results were not perfect but the documents were improvements over the documents they replaced and that is enough for me. not least to ensure that the document > remains self-consistent and that any changes applied during editing are > uniformly applied to all relevant parts of the document, not just in the > subset of places that the editor noticed. > The changes made/proposed at editing are made by someone that is not an author, is not part of the working group and should be rejected if they raise potential difficulties such as you are worried about. I cannot see how a large set of co-ordinated changes such as you are worried about can be made by someone who is not an author. - if a split infinitive is corrected, then the correction can be approved without a further search for similar instances. Each case is a separate judgement call. - similarly with corrections of commas. - if a large set of co-ordinated changes is proposed, whose nature would require a full rerevew, they should be rejected, as politely as possible. If that is not possible for some reason, the working group should have the opportunity to weigh in, but that option should be very rarely used. > This is analogous to a situation that arises when doing code review. > If you change an API's semantics, "If it hurts when you do that, don't do that". You should not be changing an APIs' semantics as part of a code review. Those Semantics should be agreed to before coding starts. you had better go around and check > all the callers of that API to see if they need adjustments, not just the > callers of the API that your test suite happens to exercise. Sound like a nightmare to me, since such adstments might require further adjustments. With > specifications we do not have the rigid rules of function names to identify > the places to check, and the safe thing to do is read the whole document > with any changes that were made fresh in mind. > The safe thing is to limit changes after consensus to those that do not require such extensive review by the authors who may, as someone pointed out, have lost the necessary context. > -Ben > --000000000000dedcb605d94f43be Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022, 6:24 PM Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.= edu> wrote:

On Tue, Mar 01, = 2022 at 12:17:24AM +0100, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> > A full review should not be necessary.
>
> I wish that were true...

IMO a full review is necessary,

My opinion is different.=C2=A0 If I followed yo= ur approach, a lot of documents would have been delayed and probably abando= ned.=C2=A0 I've been involved as author/editor for a number of multi-hu= ndred-page documents.=C2=A0 The results were not perfect but the documents = were improvements over the documents they replaced and that is enough for m= e.

not least to ensure that the document<= br> remains self-consistent and that any changes applied during editing are
uniformly applied to all relevant parts of the document, not just in the subset of places that the editor noticed.

The changes made/proposed at editi= ng are made by someone that is not an author, is not part of the working gr= oup and should be rejected if they raise potential difficulties such as you= are worried about.=C2=A0=C2=A0

I cannot see how a large set of co-ordinated changes such as you = are worried about can be made by someone who is not an author.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -=C2=A0 if a split inf= initive is corrected, then the correction can be approved without a further= search for similar instances.=C2=A0 Each case is a separate judgement call= .

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- similarly with corrections of comma= s.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- if a large set of co-ordinated cha= nges is proposed, whose nature would require a full rerevew, they should be= rejected, as politely as possible.=C2=A0 If that is not possible for some = reason, the working group should have the opportunity to weigh in, but that= option should be very rarely used.

This is analogous to a situation that arises when doing code review.
If you change an API's semantics,

"If it hurts when you do that, don&#= 39;t do that".

You = should not be changing an APIs' semantics as part of a code review.=C2= =A0 Those

Semantics should be agreed to before codin= g starts.

you had better go around and ch= eck
all the callers of that API to see if they need adjustments, not just the callers of the API that your test suite happens to exercise.=C2=A0

Sound like a = nightmare to me, since such adstments might require further adjustments.

With
specifications we do not have the rigid rules of function names to identify=
the places to check, and the safe thing to do is read the whole document with any changes that were made fresh in mind.

The safe thing is to limit ch= anges after consensus to those that do not require such extensive review by= the authors who may, as someone pointed out, have lost the necessary conte= xt.

-Ben

--000000000000dedcb605d94f43be-- From nobody Thu Mar 3 06:06:22 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84CEF3A0ABB; Thu, 3 Mar 2022 06:06:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8rogWflveZrR; Thu, 3 Mar 2022 06:06:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CCBA3A09D0; Thu, 3 Mar 2022 06:06:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4K8Xp62BdYzDCjf; Thu, 3 Mar 2022 15:06:06 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 $3608.120.23.2.7$) Subject: Re: [rfc-i] Time to say "NO!!" to AUTH4200 (Re: AUTH48 checking the different formats (Re: Public archival of AUTH48 communications)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 15:06:05 +0100 Cc: Benjamin Kaduk , Michael Richardson , admin-discuss@ietf.org, IETF , RFC Interest , Working Group Chairs X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 668009165.654315-8b227c8ffa464080ee0b63c3b4566f4b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5745B01F-A817-4047-888D-BE1251A4D4AA@tzi.org> References: <28081.1646063116@localhost> <30A5489A-BD18-49CF-AB34-2E9B6E759B8C@tzi.org> <20220228232436.GF12881@kduck.mit.edu> To: David Noveck X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2022 14:06:13 -0000 >> > > A full review should not be necessary.=20 >> >=20 >> > I wish that were true... >>=20 >> IMO a full review is necessary, >>=20 > My opinion is different. If I followed your approach, a lot of = documents would have been delayed and probably abandoned. =20 The crucial observation is that different authors have different = priorities here. That is very much OK. The responsible AD is part of the process to check that it doesn=E2=80=99t= derail too much. > I've been involved as author/editor for a number of multi-hundred-page = documents. The results were not perfect but the documents were = improvements over the documents they replaced and that is enough for me. The perfect is the enemy of the good=E2=80=A6 > should Did I talk about process confabulation yet today? I think we are still responsible for the outcomes, even if not everybody = else keeps every SHOULD (or MUST). But that doesn=E2=80=99t mean the result MUST be perfect. 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([2406:e003:1005:b501:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d25-20020a637359000000b0037843afb785sm2793828pgn.25.2022.03.03.12.01.54 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 03 Mar 2022 12:01:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [rfc-i] Time to say "NO!!" to AUTH4200 (Re: AUTH48 checking the different formats (Re: Public archival of AUTH48 communications)) To: David Noveck , Benjamin Kaduk Cc: Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, IETF , RFC Interest References: <28081.1646063116@localhost> <30A5489A-BD18-49CF-AB34-2E9B6E759B8C@tzi.org> <20220228232436.GF12881@kduck.mit.edu> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <4dc84eee-0402-e72c-3fad-d7fdf4516033@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 09:01:52 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2022 20:02:11 -0000 David, On 04-Mar-22 01:08, David Noveck wrote: ... > The safe thing is to limit changes after consensus to those that do not require such extensive review by the authors who may, as someone pointed out, have lost the necessary context. This is a bit of a strawman, but it is entirely possible that an editor could resolve an ambiguous sentence in a way that effectively changes the meaning of the whole document; for example, changing a terminology definition that is used throughout the text. We can't avoid this by issuing meaningless instructions to the editor like "don't change anything that matters". How we resolve it today is by the editor writing to the authors at AUTH48 time in terms like: 4) Only someone who understands the whole scenario can determine whether the second version is a clarification or a change of intent. Whatever the tooling for AUTH48, this sort of edit must be reviewed by a subject matter expert. Brian From nobody Thu Mar 3 18:38:08 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52B603A0C9D; Thu, 3 Mar 2022 18:37:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dseGmZoRqhbH; Thu, 3 Mar 2022 18:37:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C74493A0B5F; Thu, 3 Mar 2022 18:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1nPxpA-000Eyc-FK; Thu, 03 Mar 2022 21:37:44 -0500 Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2022 21:37:38 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Brian E Carpenter , David Noveck , Benjamin Kaduk cc: Working Group Chairs , admin-discuss@ietf.org, RFC Interest , IETF Subject: Re: [rfc-i] Time to say "NO!!" to AUTH4200 (Re: AUTH48 checking the different formats (Re: Public archival of AUTH48 communications)) Message-ID: <787B2692B486DA6743B288BC@PSB> In-Reply-To: <4dc84eee-0402-e72c-3fad-d7fdf4516033@gmail.com> References: <28081.1646063116@localhost> <30A5489A-BD18-49CF-AB34-2E9B6E759B8C@tzi.org> <20220228232436.GF12881@kduck.mit.edu> <4dc84eee-0402-e72c-3fad-d7fdf4516033@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 02:37:51 -0000 --On Friday, March 4, 2022 09:01 +1300 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > David, > On 04-Mar-22 01:08, David Noveck wrote: > ... >> The safe thing is to limit changes after consensus to those >> that do not require such extensive review by the authors who >> may, as someone pointed out, have lost the necessary context. > > This is a bit of a strawman, but it is entirely possible that > an editor could resolve an ambiguous sentence in a way that > effectively changes the meaning of the whole document; for > example, changing a terminology definition that is used > throughout the text. Your supposed strawman is eventually what brought us to pre-publication review of documents that, through a few stages of review, brought us to AUTH48. And problems about authors either tuning out or taking advantage of questionable changes to substitute their preferences for approving-body consensus. In other words "been there, tried that, and it did not work out well". Probably worth mentioning that those checks were first put in place at a time when the editing team had considerably more expertise and depth about the subject matter of RFCs than today's RPC and any we are likely to see in the future. Even they could got get decisions about what did or did not change meaning right 100% of the time. > We can't avoid this by issuing meaningless instructions to the > editor like "don't change anything that matters". How we > resolve it today is by the editor writing to the authors at > AUTH48 time in terms like: >... If the editor even notices that a change might be substantive. The current RPC team gets that right almost all of the time, but final review by subject matter experts is still important (if nothing else, to keep this a team effort and avoid pressure on the RPC for absolute accuracy and universal knowledge. john From nobody Fri Mar 4 15:02:15 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB1953A12DE; Fri, 4 Mar 2022 15:02:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: IETF Secretariat To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: ietf@ietf.org, 113all@ietf.org, recentattendees@ietf.org Subject: IETF 113 Standard Registration Deadline and Internet-Draft Submission Cut-off Approaching X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: support@ietf.org Message-ID: <164643492174.28345.4735682597092153390@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 15:02:01 -0800 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 23:02:02 -0000 IETF 113 Vienna, Austria March 19-25, 2022 Hosted by Huawei 1. 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When: Saturday, March 19, 2022 through Sunday, March 20, 2022 Signup for the Hackathon Onsite: https://registration.ietf.org/113/new/hackathon_onsite/ Signup for the Hackathon Remote: https://registration.ietf.org/113/new/hackathon_remote/ More information can be found here: https://www.ietf.org/how/runningcode/hackathons/113-hackathon/ Keep up to date by subscribing to: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon The Hackathon is free to attend and open to all. Extend the invitation to colleagues outside the IETF! Descriptions and information regarding the technologies for the hackathon are located on the IETF 113 Meeting Wiki: https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/113hackathon Don’t see anything that interests you? Feel free to add your preferred technology to the list, sign up as its Champion and show up to work on it. Note: you must login to the wiki to add content. If you do add a new technology, we strongly suggest that you send an email to hackathon@ietf.org to let others know. You may generate interest in your technology, and find other people who want to contribute to it. 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I cannot find that latter date anywhere, on any webpage or in any e-mail. I would find it helpful to have that information alongside the cut-off date and suspect that I am not alone. It may well be algorithmically determined but a simple date I would find friendlier. At present, the announcement reads like the end of civilisation as we know it! Tom Petch On 04/03/2022 23:02, IETF Secretariat wrote: > IETF 113 > Vienna, Austria > March 19-25, 2022 > Hosted by Huawei > > 1. Standard Registration Deadline > 2. Reservation Cut-off Deadline > 3. Internet-Draft Submission Deadline > 4. Fee Waivers for Remote Participation > 5. Participation preparation > 6. IETF 113 Meeting T-Shirts > 7. IETF Hackathon > > 1. Registration Standard Deadline: > > The standard deadline for registration is Monday, March 7th. > Be sure to register before the deadline passes! > Register online at: https://registration.ietf.org/113/ > > Standard Full Week Rates: > > Onsite Standard Registration: USD 875 + VAT, if paid in full prior to 23:59 UTC 2022-03-07 > Remote Standard Registration: USD 280, if paid in full prior to 23:59 UTC 2022-03-07 > > NOTE: Payment is required at the time of registration. The Standard Registration > fee is until this Monday, March 7th at UTC 23:59. After March 7th > at UTC 23:59 the registration fees will increase. Registration types, and fee tiers, > are available at https://registration.ietf.org/113/ > > If you require any further information or assistance with registration > then please feel free to contact us at support@ietf.org. > > 2. Reservation Cut-off Deadline > > The IETF 113 meeting venue is the Hilton Vienna Park Hotel. The IETF > Reservation cut-off date for the Hilton Vienna Park Hotel is on March > 9, 2022. Reservations can still be made after March 9th by emailing > support@ietf.org and will be subject to overall hotel availability. > More information on the venue hotel: > https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/hotel/ > > 3. Internet-Draft Submission Deadline > > Internet-Draft submission cut-off (for all drafts, including -00) is > Monday, March 7th by UTC 23:59. Please feel free to upload drafts > using the upload submissions tool found below: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/ > > > 4. Fee Waivers for Remote Participants: > > We understand that not everyone can afford the IETF 113 remote registration > fee for a variety of reasons, including issues with income, > employment status and employer support, and we do not want any of > these to be a barrier to participation. If you cannot afford the remote > registration fee then please take this fee waiver option to > ensure that you can participate: > https://www.ietf.org/forms/113-registration-fee-waiver/. > > 5. Participation preparation > > As with past fully-online IETF meetings, all IETF 113 > participants—onsite and remote—will need to use Meetecho to sign into > and participate in sessions. Online and in-person testing will be > available in advance of the meeting, including online at: > > + 7 March 2022, 1500 UTC > + 9 March 2022, 2200 UTC > > More information, resources, and testing sessions are available at: > > https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/preparation/ > > 6. IETF 113 Meeting T-Shirts: > > Thanks to the generosity of the IETF 113 meeting host, Huawei, > registered participants, both onsite and remote, have the option to > receive a free t-shirt with free delivery or collection onsite. Limited > quantities are available on a first-come, first-served basis. Remote > registrants can request a meeting t-shirt through the attendee dashboard. > > > 7. IETF Hackathon: > > The IETF is holding a Hackathon to encourage > developers to discuss, collaborate and develop utilities, ideas, > sample code and solutions that show practical implementations of > IETF standards. > > When: Saturday, March 19, 2022 through Sunday, March 20, 2022 > Signup for the Hackathon Onsite: https://registration.ietf.org/113/new/hackathon_onsite/ > Signup for the Hackathon Remote: https://registration.ietf.org/113/new/hackathon_remote/ > More information can be found here: https://www.ietf.org/how/runningcode/hackathons/113-hackathon/ > Keep up to date by subscribing to: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon > > The Hackathon is free to attend and open to all. Extend > the invitation to colleagues outside the IETF! > > Descriptions and information regarding the technologies > for the hackathon are located on the IETF 113 Meeting Wiki: > https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/113hackathon > > Don’t see anything that interests you? Feel free to add > your preferred technology to the list, sign up as its > Champion and show up to work on it. Note: you must login to > the wiki to add content. If you do add a new technology, we > strongly suggest that you send an email to hackathon@ietf.org > to let others know. You may generate interest in your > technology, and find other people who want to contribute to > it. > > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce > From nobody Sat Mar 5 04:11:26 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 633EB3A16D6; Sat, 5 Mar 2022 04:11:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ytzxtjadx1MZ; Sat, 5 Mar 2022 04:11:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AB073A16D1; Sat, 5 Mar 2022 04:11:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p5089ad4f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.173.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4K9k8f5175zDCfS; Sat, 5 Mar 2022 13:11:14 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 $3693.60.0.1.1$) Subject: Re: IETF 113 Standard Registration Deadline and Internet-Draft Submission Cut-off Approaching From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <6223474D.1060904@btconnect.com> Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 13:11:13 +0100 Cc: recentattendees@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <38E89FBD-C914-4D1E-A211-5F41C7E91C07@tzi.org> References: <164643492174.28345.4735682597092153390@ietfa.amsl.com> <6223474D.1060904@btconnect.com> To: tom petch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2022 12:11:25 -0000 On 5. Mar 2022, at 12:19, tom petch wrote: >=20 > I wanted to make reference to the I-D submission cut-off recently and = point out when it was possible to submit I-D again. I cannot find that = latter date anywhere, on any webpage or in any e-mail.=20 Interesting. That used to be on https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/ =E2=80=94 but = not in the new (much improved) layout of that page. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sat Mar 5 05:03:26 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 532E03A1703; Sat, 5 Mar 2022 05:03:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_FAIL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a1JVzHBIjq_R; Sat, 5 Mar 2022 05:03:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [92.243.22.217]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2187C3A1709; Sat, 5 Mar 2022 05:03:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPV6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd] (unknown [IPv6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63DDCAE007; Sat, 5 Mar 2022 14:03:13 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <1e02a806-2929-2c54-d19b-429fdfe12878@petit-huguenin.org> Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 05:03:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.6.1 Subject: Re: IETF 113 Standard Registration Deadline and Internet-Draft Submission Cut-off Approaching Content-Language: en-US To: Carsten Bormann , tom petch Cc: recentattendees@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org References: <164643492174.28345.4735682597092153390@ietfa.amsl.com> <6223474D.1060904@btconnect.com> <38E89FBD-C914-4D1E-A211-5F41C7E91C07@tzi.org> From: Marc Petit-Huguenin In-Reply-To: <38E89FBD-C914-4D1E-A211-5F41C7E91C07@tzi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------mqn61IvIPQzpZTwAyhewH0nZ" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2022 13:03:24 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------mqn61IvIPQzpZTwAyhewH0nZ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------QDuKzPW2CVLlqv0q00Me5h0k"; protected-headers="v1" From: Marc Petit-Huguenin To: Carsten Bormann , tom petch Cc: recentattendees@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org Message-ID: <1e02a806-2929-2c54-d19b-429fdfe12878@petit-huguenin.org> Subject: Re: IETF 113 Standard Registration Deadline and Internet-Draft Submission Cut-off Approaching References: <164643492174.28345.4735682597092153390@ietfa.amsl.com> <6223474D.1060904@btconnect.com> <38E89FBD-C914-4D1E-A211-5F41C7E91C07@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <38E89FBD-C914-4D1E-A211-5F41C7E91C07@tzi.org> --------------QDuKzPW2CVLlqv0q00Me5h0k Content-Type: text/plain; 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charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2022 11:00:47 -0000 Count | Bytes | Who ------------+----------------+------- 37 ( 100%) | 333005 ( 100%) | Total 7 (18.9%) | 29975 ( 9.0%) | Carsten Bormann 5 (13.5%) | 35391 (10.6%) | Brian E Carpenter 4 (10.8%) | 39733 (11.9%) | touch@strayalpha.com 3 ( 8.1%) | 33051 ( 9.9%) | David Noveck 3 ( 8.1%) | 14910 ( 4.5%) | John C Klensin 2 ( 5.4%) | 12594 ( 3.8%) | Joel M. Halpern 2 ( 5.4%) | 12265 ( 3.7%) | Michael Richardson 1 ( 2.7%) | 49990 (15.0%) | Eric Vyncke (evyncke) 1 ( 2.7%) | 17397 ( 5.2%) | HANSEN, TONY L 1 ( 2.7%) | 17168 ( 5.2%) | Lucas Pardue 1 ( 2.7%) | 15912 ( 4.8%) | tom petch 1 ( 2.7%) | 14442 ( 4.3%) | Andrew Sullivan 1 ( 2.7%) | 9297 ( 2.8%) | Salz, Rich 1 ( 2.7%) | 8812 ( 2.6%) | Larry Masinter 1 ( 2.7%) | 6303 ( 1.9%) | IETF Secretariat 1 ( 2.7%) | 6274 ( 1.9%) | Marc Petit-Huguenin 1 ( 2.7%) | 5671 ( 1.7%) | Adrian Farrel 1 ( 2.7%) | 3820 ( 1.1%) | Benjamin Kaduk From nobody Mon Mar 7 01:40:46 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 012733A0EF2; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 01:40:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, 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cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 7 Mar 2022 10:40:12 +0100 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1646646013; bh=vUMUpM3yHVcOyRcSlFuhmVlHlW7SocUZQ+mZ+IaxwxY=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=nQLEb3Z8nxqmhUgcJ9Co77WLdHRw12jfAvn1RzyY6gbwuH0cIfmkdQEwbSvahb6RZ 8KAvngp5t5TDLG4gK7vHaqjKgkQaD2hOe5v5bxmoQ3zQqS3fqV2QnCHAPk2QQCESdP OwSE23A51cs8ogY1X+jEuHFsrtBsn2/AEYPpSfeY= Message-ID: <3f01ea8c-38df-a965-82ca-94a1c699acc0@lear.ch> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 10:40:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.6.1 Content-Language: en-US To: iesg@ietf.org Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Eliot Lear Subject: On transparency of the road not taken (Re: Public archival of AUTH48 communications) In-Reply-To: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------jBmLvI7t0mSLMU6RCb1dARat" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 09:40:45 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------jBmLvI7t0mSLMU6RCb1dARat Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------lQ5xfxTX28Ca5aSeE3qUrjiK"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: iesg@ietf.org Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org Message-ID: <3f01ea8c-38df-a965-82ca-94a1c699acc0@lear.ch> Subject: On transparency of the road not taken (Re: Public archival of AUTH48 communications) References: 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Hi Francesca,

We have discussed transparency in AUTH48, the point at which a draft is about to be published.=C2=A0 I wonder if we could also consider the point at which it is decided not to publish a draft.=C2=A0 Documenting that decision process is important (a) whe= n the organization has spent a lot of time on it or (b) when there is some reasonable expectation that the matter might arise again.=C2= =A0 This can help us preserve institutional memory without requiring people to sift through hundreds or thousands of email messages.
=

Two examples that come to mind are the work around NEWTRK that never got pushed through (this goes back to 2006) and comes up from time to time, and the work of sunset4, about which someone just queried me.

If a draft has been adopted by a working group but hasn't proceeded to publication, then I would argue that the IETF should take the time to establish a tombstone of some form that explains what happened, recording people's views, preferably succinctly.=C2=A0= I imagine this doesn't happen too often (I've cited two examples that go back 16 years), and I can think of two other cases that go back even further.

If a draft was not adopted and people would still like to explain the situation, then that is something that might be a valuable independent submission, assuming other approaches haven't been developed.

I am not suggesting a treatise in either case, nor a rant about how things went "wrong", but a simple summary of the discussions to explain what we learned that led to the decision to not publish.

Thoughts?

Eliot

On 24.02.22 23:24, The IESG wrote:
=

The IETF prides itself on it=
s open process and transparent=20
communication, with one of our core principles being our commitment to=20
making all materials related to our standards process and other=20
activities publicly available.=20

For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream, most of=20
its history can be traced by exploring the mail archive - from the first =

submission, to Last Call comments, to IESG evaluation. However, once the =

document enters the RFC Editor queue, the communication between authors=20
and RFC Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific set of=20
people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG chairs (when=20
applicable).=20

In order to increase transparency during the final stages of document=20
editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC Series Project Manager, =

RPC, and Tools team are considering allowing anyone to search and read=20
AUTH48 conversations about specific documents (or clusters of=20
documents). It is not a goal to actively involve more people in the=20
conversation between authors and RFC editors.

Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 conversations,=20
for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. The RFC editors, when=20
initiating the conversation with the authors will CC this mailing list.=20
All further responses usually maintain the CC addresses, and as a=20
consequence will be archived in the mailing list archive.=20

All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on the same=20
mailing list. Searches and filtering will be available based on the=20
mails=E2=80=99 content and metadata, including draft name, RFC-to-be numb=
er,=20
cluster number, sender, and date.

Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from archival,=20
by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although we don=E2=80=99t envis=
ion=20
that this will be necessary often, there may be cases where sensitive=20
information needs to be shared.

The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include text about =

public archival, to make sure authors are aware. With this announcement, =

the IESG wants to inform the community and read feedback before we set=20
anything up. Please send any comment to iesg@ietf.org or reply to this=20
thread by 24 March 2022.

Francesca Palombini for the IESG

_______________________________________________
IETF-Announce mailing list
IETF-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announc=
e

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dGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vcmVjZW50YXR0ZW5kZWVzDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Mar 7 08:29:12 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A03833A0D1D; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:29:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: IETF Secretariat To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: ietf@ietf.org, 113all@ietf.org, recentattendees@ietf.org Subject: IETF 113 Standard Registration Deadline and Internet-Draft Submission Cut-off Today! X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.46.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: support@ietf.org Message-ID: <164667055054.9081.8781443780389857799@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:29:10 -0800 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 16:29:11 -0000 IETF 113 Vienna, Austria March 19-25, 2022 Hosted by Huawei 1. Standard Registration Deadline 2. Reservation Cut-off Deadline 3. Internet-Draft Submission Deadline 4. Fee Waivers for Remote Participation 5. Participation preparation 6. IETF 113 Meeting T-Shirts 7. IETF Hackathon 1. Registration Standard Deadline: The standard deadline for registration is today, Monday, March 7th. Be sure to register before the deadline passes! Register online at: https://registration.ietf.org/113/ Standard Full Week Rates: Onsite Standard Registration: USD 875 + VAT, if paid in full prior to 23:59 UTC 2022-03-07 Remote Standard Registration: USD 280, if paid in full prior to 23:59 UTC 2022-03-07 NOTE: Payment is required at the time of registration. The Standard Registration fee is until this Monday, March 7th at UTC 23:59. After March 7th at UTC 23:59 the registration fees will increase. Registration types, and fee tiers, are available at https://registration.ietf.org/113/ If you require any further information or assistance with registration then please feel free to contact us at support@ietf.org. 2. Reservation Cut-off Deadline The IETF 113 meeting venue is the Hilton Vienna Park Hotel. The IETF Reservation cut-off date for the Hilton Vienna Park Hotel is on March 9, 2022. Reservations can still be made after March 9th by emailing support@ietf.org and will be subject to overall hotel availability. More information on the venue hotel: https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/hotel/ 3. Internet-Draft Submission Deadline Internet-Draft submission cut-off (for all drafts, including -00) is today, Monday, March 7th by UTC 23:59. Please feel free to upload drafts using the upload submissions tool found below: https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/ 4. Fee Waivers for Remote Participants: We understand that not everyone can afford the IETF 113 remote registration fee for a variety of reasons, including issues with income, employment status and employer support, and we do not want any of these to be a barrier to participation. If you cannot afford the remote registration fee then please take this fee waiver option to ensure that you can participate: https://www.ietf.org/forms/113-registration-fee-waiver/. 5. Participation preparation As with past fully-online IETF meetings, all IETF 113 participants—onsite and remote—will need to use Meetecho to sign into and participate in sessions. Online and in-person testing will be available in advance of the meeting, including online at: + 7 March 2022, 1500 UTC + 9 March 2022, 2200 UTC More information, resources, and testing sessions are available at: https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/preparation/ 6. IETF 113 Meeting T-Shirts: Thanks to the generosity of the IETF 113 meeting host, Huawei, registered participants, both onsite and remote, have the option to receive a free t-shirt with free delivery or collection onsite. Limited quantities are available on a first-come, first-served basis. Remote registrants can request a meeting t-shirt through the attendee dashboard. 7. IETF Hackathon: The IETF is holding a Hackathon to encourage developers to discuss, collaborate and develop utilities, ideas, sample code and solutions that show practical implementations of IETF standards. When: Saturday, March 19, 2022 through Sunday, March 20, 2022 Signup for the Hackathon Onsite: https://registration.ietf.org/113/new/hackathon_onsite/ Signup for the Hackathon Remote: https://registration.ietf.org/113/new/hackathon_remote/ More information can be found here: https://www.ietf.org/how/runningcode/hackathons/113-hackathon/ Keep up to date by subscribing to: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon The Hackathon is free to attend and open to all. Extend the invitation to colleagues outside the IETF! Descriptions and information regarding the technologies for the hackathon are located on the IETF 113 Meeting Wiki: https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/113hackathon Don’t see anything that interests you? Feel free to add your preferred technology to the list, sign up as its Champion and show up to work on it. Note: you must login to the wiki to add content. If you do add a new technology, we strongly suggest that you send an email to hackathon@ietf.org to let others know. You may generate interest in your technology, and find other people who want to contribute to it. From nobody Mon Mar 7 08:43:16 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33EBE3A10D4; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:43:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HhCtCrmX6Y_2; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:43:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102e.google.com (mail-pj1-x102e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E393F3A0D1D; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:42:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102e.google.com with SMTP id c16-20020a17090aa61000b001befad2bfaaso14241002pjq.1; Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:42:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=H3Mfzn58WE/fpFs7XosUYEESE1LcbFbcZnl3rQZdG10=; b=AnJBMUg4V8qh0A0qWx8dhx9IzVxuYkve/kRegyb1kPvcHql2FZO2EUaf2utdHxIPK7 7V1YM/2VQNOQ2jxjQa3DgAHtF5WxcppXH69RQTvLvtjgDebydUWFs97jbhizU/fltS6U vQzHsOv2bpQIc5EWziIOzY8ngFXF3kSEwGptK6ZcvDNian77RyrpVRmwu1q2E1Xa0cIX l5bCzvxOBHArRsKr1hjMhwb08BrTUQuWghmKTL3QhPjlkBLkm/gao0SYBQA+y2sZ4hTm mSflX0+inPpuHalcWTlkwmcDyZkN5erAgp1PgCarF+Gb9HQD/OfxVKdXNDkYqPKQMHpn ULiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=H3Mfzn58WE/fpFs7XosUYEESE1LcbFbcZnl3rQZdG10=; b=0IEbA3T2xdFwUdZl6ucgtx+ciczyETBqRV3yeDljlHTUQMGc+BItyZrD+LokfCViWo 7A9aIaSYfYVyAJ8e5djDxk+ucY+vzVWNRWBCcN0TetrqcWYf+DD4fiXUY6ED8M0S9hXY Vlb4ZNwgkwv8GI0JPztN8awcacOJB/y5atqYw+NvmSCqL6kkYcS/FdhqwGkk1qj8TbiQ IoLDe8QEwhx+l3Jya5FmAL/nEmhxredImUyb+h7VZsJ/RKvrhTocfJNNH22EM3/6csm0 0J930EohE91FPYW48cSRWBFsshIK41r8mMf1gtiCZC5g4Kin8iOrgx9W+NWBisiWX9zb lKUA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531JxIOEFxt4m1aM2CSjBCeZsWqJB1/Aw4a60LIB7qP4TtKd62v2 5Oh+bCNuCXpp75ZflOjRxCI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxrRT4/7u1gxX7eceuQUztcbxaS7EGjKsO+68QehBs6cFD3C50DzpDuMjVYgO9hz79UzPmA3g== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:e84b:b0:151:ca71:7d3d with SMTP id t11-20020a170902e84b00b00151ca717d3dmr12875104plg.26.1646671360973; Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:42:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (ip68-6-76-133.sb.sd.cox.net. [68.6.76.133]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d7-20020a056a00244700b004e1300a2f7csm16524104pfj.212.2022.03.07.08.42.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:42:40 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 $3696.80.82.1.1$) Subject: Re: IETF 113 Standard Registration Deadline and Internet-Draft Submission Cut-off Approaching From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <6223474D.1060904@btconnect.com> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:42:39 -0800 Cc: recentattendees@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <395BB5FD-665B-420C-BC62-B10A028F1789@gmail.com> References: <164643492174.28345.4735682597092153390@ietfa.amsl.com> <6223474D.1060904@btconnect.com> To: tom petch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.80.82.1.1) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 16:43:15 -0000 > On Mar 5, 2022, at 3:19 AM, tom petch wrote: >=20 > I wanted to make reference to the I-D submission cut-off recently and = point out when it was possible to submit I-D again. I cannot find that = latter date anywhere, on any webpage or in any e-mail. I would find it = helpful to have that information alongside the cut-off date and suspect = that I am not alone. It may well be algorithmically determined but a = simple date I would find friendlier. At present, the announcement reads = like the end of civilisation as we know it! The secretariat will no doubt deal with the "important dates" = (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/important-dates/) themselves, but = permit me to directly answer your question. Historically, the point of = having a draft cut-off was to have the drafts posted prior to the = meeting with enough time for people to actually decide what was relevant = to them and read them. The period during which the repository is closed = is from the Internet Draft submission cut-off (for IETF 113, March 7) = until the start of the meeting (which would be Monday March 21 = historically and probably Saturday March 19 given current planning = statements)= From nobody Mon Mar 7 10:42:36 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A68313A1329; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 10:42:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8IAbU1wVTdXH; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 10:41:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2AAF33A1B1F; Mon, 7 Mar 2022 10:40:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1nRIH6-000PHb-W2; Mon, 07 Mar 2022 13:40:04 -0500 Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 13:39:58 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Eliot Lear , iesg@ietf.org cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: On transparency of the road not taken (Re: Public archival of AUTH48 communications) Message-ID: <3AD8BAD0FE9B2F9C0700B0D6@PSB> In-Reply-To: <3f01ea8c-38df-a965-82ca-94a1c699acc0@lear.ch> References: <164574145917.13799.12710132950530774405@ietfa.amsl.com> <3f01ea8c-38df-a965-82ca-94a1c699acc0@lear.ch> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 18:42:09 -0000 Eliot, The devil is, as usual, in the details, but I agree with the general idea. Three additions to your comments: (1) Some of those "path not taken" or rejected documents have ended up as Independent Submissions and published. Especially when an IETF WG picked a different solution to the same or a similar problem, the approval process for those Independent Submissions has been more or less insistent that revised versions of those road-not-taken documents contain a careful critical analysis of the two approaches and the differences between them. (2) Using the NEWTRK documents as an example, I think it would be accurate to say that many of those who had participated in the work found the IESG's explanation of what was done and why to be completely unsatisfactory. Were we to go down the path you suggest, there should be some theory about how to resolve such situations even if it were only that the IESG posts a draft summary/tombstone but its text were subject to appeal. However, one of the lessons from that episode was that there were no appeals from the IESG decision at least in part because the animosity level was high enough that no one wanted to raise temperatures further. (3) Would you expect such a tombstone mechanism / process to apply to Independent Submissions as well? I can see strong arguments both ways. best, john --On Monday, March 7, 2022 10:40 +0100 Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi Francesca, >=20 > We have discussed transparency in AUTH48, the point at which a > draft is about to be published.=C2=A0 I wonder if we could = also > consider the point at which it is decided *not* to publish a > draft.=C2=A0 Documenting that decision process is important = (a) > when the organization has spent a lot of time on it or (b) > when there is some reasonable expectation that the matter > might arise again. This can help us preserve institutional > memory without requiring people to sift through hundreds or > thousands of email messages. >=20 > Two examples that come to mind are the work around NEWTRK that > never got pushed through (this goes back to 2006) and comes up > from time to time, and the work of sunset4, about which > someone just queried me. >=20 > If a draft has been adopted by a working group but hasn't > proceeded to publication, then I would argue that the IETF > should take the time to establish a tombstone of some form > that explains what happened, recording people's views, > preferably succinctly.=C2=A0 I imagine this doesn't happen too > often (I've cited two examples that go back 16 years), and I > can think of two other cases that go back even further. >=20 > If a draft was not adopted and people would still like to > explain the situation, then that is something that might be a > valuable independent submission, assuming other approaches > haven't been developed. >=20 > I am not suggesting a treatise in either case, nor a rant > about how things went "wrong", but a simple summary of the > discussions to explain what we learned that led to the > decision to not publish. >=20 > Thoughts? >=20 > Eliot >=20 > On 24.02.22 23:24, The IESG wrote: >> The IETF prides itself on its open process and transparent >> communication, with one of our core principles being our >> commitment to making all materials related to our standards >> process and other activities publicly available. >>=20 >> For a document undergoing publication within the IETF Stream, >> most of its history can be traced by exploring the mail >> archive - from the first submission, to Last Call comments, >> to IESG evaluation. However, once the document enters the RFC >> Editor queue, the communication between authors and RFC >> Production Center (RPC) is only visible to a specific set of >> people: RFC editors, authors, the responsible ADs and WG >> chairs (when applicable). >>=20 >> In order to increase transparency during the final stages of >> document editing, the IESG, IAB, ISE, IRSG, Temporary RFC >> Series Project Manager, RPC, and Tools team are considering >> allowing anyone to search and read AUTH48 conversations about >> specific documents (or clusters of documents). It is not a >> goal to actively involve more people in the conversation >> between authors and RFC editors. >>=20 >> Our proposal: to set up a public mailing list of AUTH48 >> conversations, for archival purposes only, i.e., read-only. >> The RFC editors, when initiating the conversation with the >> authors will CC this mailing list. All further responses >> usually maintain the CC addresses, and as a consequence will >> be archived in the mailing list archive. >>=20 >> All AUTH48 discussions of all documents will be archived on >> the same mailing list. Searches and filtering will be >> available based on the mails' content and metadata, >> including draft name, RFC-to-be number, cluster number, >> sender, and date. >>=20 >> Opt out: the authors and RFC editors are able to opt out from >> archival, by removing the mailing list from the CC. Although >> we don't envision that this will be necessary often, there >> may be cases where sensitive information needs to be shared. >>=20 >> The initial AUTH48 mail from the RFC Editor will also include >> text about public archival, to make sure authors are aware. >> With this announcement, the IESG wants to inform the >> community and read feedback before we set anything up. Please >> send any comment toiesg@ietf.org or reply to this thread by >> 24 March 2022. >>=20 >> Francesca Palombini for the IESG >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> IETF-Announce mailing list >> IETF-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >>=20 From nobody Tue Mar 8 10:42:23 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEFA83A0CF3; Tue, 8 Mar 2022 10:42:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.106 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.106 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wHKO7ZpvtP4q; Tue, 8 Mar 2022 10:41:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vs1-xe34.google.com (mail-vs1-xe34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 647263A0CBD; Tue, 8 Mar 2022 10:41:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vs1-xe34.google.com with SMTP id y4so21587345vsd.11; Tue, 08 Mar 2022 10:41:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=5HTzXq7F3S/AKdZtB0FBbr9hak1LLfEZ2kiS99IzGak=; b=UPh/yn/gd21v1UP7B2J2P7darnYsun7Mfgvrcfy89e6GTHkhCUxkdZLuUAInbuHtFS lmqGUZOH26vzbAzRVZVuMn6svDwqQhUFwfGf86BI07Sg+TNlyEmUNGiCwyzDXHwhxnVj so/cUM7Tl4Thz4Ype1X+PZADbXaW6eol0ToA5qYQtstRyd2XSKHmpudsxhvIeSutSRmn pYQQqwOb8uubE1Z6HpHBRMqCWiLSw3gJN3KG1mo9yzDq3DmxfAaHY2c/INogLv60wyN8 kR+YsTihN3z+mj71k3m8cScQwBuRufLMMCFvL423Q2hMVdCvfoSEqgDH7ghyRuMsuINA yj0w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=5HTzXq7F3S/AKdZtB0FBbr9hak1LLfEZ2kiS99IzGak=; b=oI5ftdib0pEq0F5TdCFdiWTukEDdb6PE0wu1XMP8nw1FUCGlOhfGKoPGet7aUjJXwi mkpupGJGCwa4YTBTNjrhHu1MxPiyGfuqtB++RR6e8ukFE0sXnPo1f9Cy4rJ+GAwqJPZ1 M3+/ik1bJuAdF+SiznKR4Sqo3Cv41z7/Nwg8ElhlHnsJ3iuGhy2K1ftLP+vvUb60WI/U X+A3z1uNol4fMY0boEeIxQ1TKWB74KS/xF1c4ukrc11DClyiH2wHMr0ikTDCuTyEGw7i ZywGRjiFRwEKDikCXq/jSDC/A4Mp3NszHi3y5vurxXupYRPM2eVvt8qB6TGQstgxZthj 4jEA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Ek3KVsVI0unVTLT8S9Isch3qrKkvrct5HCuT5MibonLKoF4jA C2yitUVpU6Z0JJUQdKCd339Zjxdz9G9bPjKlJ31Dt3N9V4Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx8g6gR1p8SM0hCtLv2dbkLQvaL0dUzttqGx3DYrj0Xgd32Nw06Pj9nBVzGORHWNKQuhK2T783KMJpyvROF5EQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:a35:b0:320:d323:3caa with SMTP id 21-20020a0561020a3500b00320d3233caamr4281003vsb.42.1646764915821; Tue, 08 Mar 2022 10:41:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Aaron Falk Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 13:41:45 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: HotRFC at IETF-113 -- Call for participation To: IETF Discussion , 113 attendees <113attendees@ietf.org>, wgchairs@ietf.org, IRTF Discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d610ce05d9b95568" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2022 18:42:02 -0000 --000000000000d610ce05d9b95568 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *Do you have an idea, problem space, or proposal that IETFers should hear about?* *Do you want to propose IETF or IRTF work but aren=E2=80=99t sure if your i= dea is ready or who will be interested?* Agenda requests are now being accepted for the Request for Conversation (HotRFC) lightning talk session. Presenters will have 4 minutes to make their case for collaboration. Interested folks can continue the discussion after the session. Goals include encouraging brainstorming conversations, helping new work proposals find collaborators, raising awareness of relevant work going on elsewhere, and promoting BarBoFs. Past HotRFC topics covered a broad range of topics: *Collaboration:* proposals for new standards work or new research topics that haven't been discussed elsewhere, potentially relevant research that may be ready for the IETF *Notification:* new topics on the agenda in a working group or research group, cross-area IETF work *Enlightenment:* updates on relevant technologies, industry advances that could affect IETF participants. With strict time limits, concise talks will give viewers a sense of whether they=E2=80=99d like to know more and, importantly, coordinates on how to do= so. With the hybrid meeting we=E2=80=99re going to keep things rather simple an= d permit only live presentations, either on-site or remote via MeetEcho. Slides must be submitted in advance. Video of the session will be recorded for later viewing. - To request a slot, submit a short abstract to hotrfc@ietf.org no later than Friday, March 18th, 2400 UTC that includes the following - Talk title - Presenter, Affiliation - Short topic abstract (topics should be IETF-related in some way) - Coordinates to learn more, contact those involved, &/or relevant formal or side meetings - All talks will be presented live, whether in-person or MeetEcho - Slides (ppt or pdf) must be submitted to hotrfc@ietf.org no later than Saturday, March 19th, 2400 UTC. - TALKS MUST BE NO MORE THAN 4 MINUTES IN LENGTH. *At four minutes exactly, we cut the microphone and transition to the next speaker.* - The session will be on *Sunday, March 20th at TIME_TBD*, (expected to be during or after the IETF Welcome Reception) Talk abstracts will be posted on the meeting agenda and will be updated as requests come in. Thanks to Spencer Dawkins who will be chairing the session on-site. I hope you=E2=80=99ll tune in. --aaron & Spencer --000000000000d610ce05d9b95568 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Do you have an idea, problem space, or p= roposal that IETFers should hear about?
Do you want to propose IETF or IRTF work but aren=E2=80=99t sure if you= r idea is ready or who will be interested?

Agenda requests are now being accepted for the Request for = Conversation (HotRFC) lightning talk session. Presenters will have 4 minute= s to make their case for collaboration. Interested folks can continue the d= iscussion after the session. Goals include encouraging brainstorming conver= sations, helping new work proposals find collaborators, raising awareness o= f relevant work going on elsewhere, and promoting BarBoFs. Past HotRFC top= ics covered a broad range of topics:

Collaboration: proposals for new standard= s work or new research topics that haven't been discussed elsewhere, po= tentially relevant research that may be ready for the IETF
Notification: new topics on the agenda in a working group = or research group, cross-area IETF work
Enlightenment: updates on relevant technologies, industry = advances that could affect IETF participants.

With strict time limits, concise talks will give viewers a = sense of whether they=E2=80=99d like to know more and, importantly, coordin= ates on how to do so.

With the hybrid meeting we=E2=80=99re going to keep things = rather simple and permit only live presentations, either on-site or remote = via MeetEcho.=C2=A0 Slides must be submitted in advance. Video of the sessi= on will be recorded for later viewing.

To request a slot, submit= a short abstract to hotrfc@ietf.org no later than Friday, March 18th= , 2400 UTC that includes the following
- Talk title
- Presenter, Affiliation
- Short topic abstract (topics should be IETF-related in some way)
- Coordinates to learn more, contact those involved, &/or relevant fo= rmal or side meetings
All talks will be presented live, whether in-person or MeetEcho
- Slides (ppt or pdf) must be submitted to hotrfc@ietf.org no later= than Saturday, March 19th, 2400 UTC.
- TALKS MUST BE NO MORE THAN 4 MINUTES IN LENGTH.=C2=A0=C2=A0At four minutes exactly, we cut the= microphone and transition to the next speaker.
The session will be on=C2=A0Sunday, March 20th at TIME_TBD, (expected to be during or afte= r the IETF Welcome Reception)=C2=A0

Talk abstracts will be posted on the meeting agenda and wil= l be updated as requests come in.

Thanks to Spencer Dawkins who will be chairing the session = on-site.=C2=A0 I hope you=E2=80=99ll tune in.

--aaron & Spencer

--000000000000d610ce05d9b95568-- From nobody Wed Mar 9 01:28:08 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC3393A0033 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 01:28:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qSmjW5yF8iDc for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 01:28:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [IPv6:2001:1900:3001:11::31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D3973A0029 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 01:28:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rfc-editor.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADB0C15FF6E for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 01:28:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at rfc-editor.org Received: from rfc-editor.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (rfcpa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1hRpehrXAXKS for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 01:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::b] (unknown [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::b]) by rfc-editor.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 40F1B1337E7 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 01:27:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 10:27:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.6.1 Content-Language: en-US To: ietf From: "Independent Submissions Editor (Eliot Lear)" Subject: Virtually Meet your Independent Submissions Editor: office hours Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2022 09:28:06 -0000 Greetings! During the week of the IETF meeting, your Independent Submissions Editor will be available for virtual chats. These times are posted on the meeting agenda. If the times do not suit you, and you would like to chat, other arrangements can be made. Looking forward to hearing from you, Eliot (ISE) From nobody Fri Mar 11 10:06:45 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A85EB3A0E5F for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:06:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=riseup.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sHKO69ra4Cq3 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:06:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42A043A0E5C for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:06:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from fews1.riseup.net (fews1-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.riseup.net", Issuer "R3" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4KFYlx3phqzDqfL; Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:06:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1647021997; bh=ak1hoghQcXHVlzljklaMDRH6Svm7fy2hkGTvJ/LHWM4=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:From; b=N1d01kpr0O5jiKbl9Z7a/xlw1DGWUFTFPcOQAtIpC58cxPArpdWKrZn3RrCrG6ibi GYKAFIhtbllK/eYL46GuIBjRkZ0HKRwOfmN5Ajg3rIez5hIKUZtL2HnbAh7sr2Q0DM za2XteDUJ/tTGz3WUPiipj9pngsYK6TJfeNyizUQ= X-Riseup-User-ID: E177E1FFB9FEC0A8E01D39F33A9033E7E968DDFA0A5315E220D392D1A9C8A95A Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fews1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KFYlv1YvDz5w5x; Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:06:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 15:06:32 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en-US From: willi uebelherr Subject: Re: Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet To: ISOC Internet Policy Cc: ISOC Andrew Sullivan , ISOC Internet Policy , ISOC Lia Kiessling , IGF governance , IETF discussion , IRTF discuss Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 18:06:43 -0000 Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022 https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-calls-to-undermine-the-internet/ Dear friends, Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the Internet is for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea. But the reality is different. The technical players acting today are not interested in a free global communication of people, but in a commercialization and capitalization of their needs for communication. This result did not come about by chance, but was already the essential guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the USA under Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection of local Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, became a privately and state organized system of interconnected star-systems, "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility to organize access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we see today that the system of a free global communication has turned into a field of censorship and private control mania, organized by countries calling themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized bullshit, because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any directions can lead to the same goal. The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human communication "without borders" are those who call themselves representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every diversity with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil Rhodes is put back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of communication that is now elevated to the absolute. The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that does not adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, as we saw with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of the life of an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power madness it has developed into, where only private profit interests and state delusions of control apply. The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the form of an internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free access to all people of our planet, independent of their social situation and geographical position. That and only that is a "net of nets". with kind regards, willi Asuncion, Paraguay in german ----------------------------------------------------------- Liebe freunde, Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf hingewiesen, "the Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee. Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden technischen Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der Menschen interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und Kapitalisierung ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation. Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war bereits zu Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA unter Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the Inter-connection of local Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, wurde zu einem privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen Sternsystemen, "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, nach beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu organisieren. Und wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich "der Westen" nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten Schwachsinn, weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit beliebige Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen. Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form des Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch gestellt. Die Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die nun zum absoluten Mass erhoben wird. Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das sich nicht an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, wie wir es bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der Lebensphase eines Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster kleingeistigem Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private Profitinteressen und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten. Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation in Form eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen Menschen unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig von ihrer sozialen Lage und geografischen Position. Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze". mit lieben gruessen, willi Asuncion, Paraguay From nobody Mon Mar 14 06:50:31 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F8A43A14F3; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 06:50:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BxN5yXohLajY; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 06:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com (mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DD6C3A14F7; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 06:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com with SMTP id w128so8361325vkd.3; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 06:50:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=PV5AVdTVVUrC4aWsxdK9sz9wR0uMwwYXz0Kp5BIjBS8=; b=JfYFSt+lAII7qWk+MYJiGSUVBBB64Wmrpd3N5GxRm1yIm4EgCPuAPHXQE4VFJkIsNh e9N3OR7yvfN3fTI4O2vLpVzIamaz1n6KBfd78ivljeIBupZ4coRyfO+9B6m1jYcdI50G jypWZy9SN/rmRdkffT//+xVQxTP2nz/Sj5b8swNCdQWAX9bCvpTgB9hBZCuL5XBbjHUC X9m7aNowXVHfQWwmKKVz8RKTOTnyTwUc3YjrdubqEy30qL5buLW1i4liGTSfkjv0izZU rCUNk8TfF2PU7w9ZTVZLDd8GVH7eMSDbkl8iNGjr4u9KE6Z7bHa0J/bCW86RPVqiBwVA FX5Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=PV5AVdTVVUrC4aWsxdK9sz9wR0uMwwYXz0Kp5BIjBS8=; b=htfbvOTNpxGjakn58WqL9/Aj14lJbxzCHfDhO/+eJYTwW2HypWaf/A2Grkxtq9jcqO s3NOrpGQZDFPB5F/xsBLK1M7wcBigJAMMmmnhascUAKaZZOJFP4vJZ8+wx8BJ9jtzgOw G3+rhp4TTo1of5U8AUPzG2tuva4lK4O8LSZQgQg9kFQfeg09ibHwaUZeir8aXTgcg0JB Q84arqWbn3y1O3sxzGlz8E65cJFYED+h7vBOyiSSiXnogqU6lOfPPlcMGTk2XS2ZmgSQ 3Z9B9lfKKUQ80MFHb0ohEbyeOUrm9+yLELfkec1aT5wZ+9DDey8ZeBQO5sPy5UASGWWL h0gA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533PTg8aJAoKm1vfJ5866wX547Pf79G4JjxWdC6ftvfUusGudlo4 8cv0y1ZnKaJipb3ev5dvfJJFph52yg3BslkywC7jSIg53jKMpQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy1MfPXBZNMLuTHswZKslPrFPKKN68hro3g/nF5eM6IrCHVda2xp5a/t0B5AThdokQrmku2mmYbTKhjrdTGwfM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:8c1:b0:332:64b4:d3e3 with SMTP id 1-20020a05612208c100b0033264b4d3e3mr9352957vkg.35.1647265822654; Mon, 14 Mar 2022 06:50:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Aaron Falk Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 09:50:11 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call for participation To: IETF Discussion , 113 attendees <113attendees@ietf.org>, wgchairs@ietf.org, IRTF Discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000035c5be05da2df6fb" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 13:50:30 -0000 --00000000000035c5be05da2df6fb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *Do you have an idea, problem space, or proposal that IETFers should hear about?* *Do you want to propose IETF or IRTF work but aren=E2=80=99t sure if your i= dea is ready or who will be interested?* Agenda requests are now being accepted for the Request for Conversation (HotRFC) lightning talk session. Presenters will have 4 minutes to make their case for collaboration. Interested folks can continue the discussion after the session. Goals include encouraging brainstorming conversations, helping new work proposals find collaborators, raising awareness of relevant work going on elsewhere, and promoting BarBoFs. Past HotRFC topics covered a broad range of topics: *Collaboration:* proposals for new standards work or new research topics that haven't been discussed elsewhere, potentially relevant research that may be ready for the IETF *Notification:* new topics on the agenda in a working group or research group, cross-area IETF work *Enlightenment:* updates on relevant technologies, industry advances that could affect IETF participants. With strict time limits, concise talks will give viewers a sense of whether they=E2=80=99d like to know more and, importantly, coordinates on how to do= so. With the hybrid meeting we=E2=80=99re going to keep things rather simple an= d permit only live presentations, either on-site or remote via MeetEcho. Slides must be submitted in advance. Video of the session will be recorded for later viewing. - To request a slot, submit a short abstract to hotrfc@ietf.org no later than Friday, March 18th, 2400 UTC that includes the following - Talk title - Presenter, Affiliation - Short topic abstract (topics should be IETF-related in some way) - Coordinates to learn more, contact those involved, &/or relevant formal or side meetings - All talks will be presented live, whether in-person or MeetEcho - Slides (ppt or pdf) must be submitted to hotrfc@ietf.org no later than Saturday, March 19th, 2400 UTC. - TALKS MUST BE NO MORE THAN 4 MINUTES IN LENGTH. *At four minutes exactly, we cut the microphone and transition to the next speaker.* - The session will be on *Sunday, March 20th at TIME_TBD*, (expected to be during or after the IETF Welcome Reception) Talk abstracts will be posted on the meeting agenda and will be updated as requests come in. Thanks to Spencer Dawkins who will be chairing the session on-site. I hope you=E2=80=99ll tune in. --aaron & Spencer --00000000000035c5be05da2df6fb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Do yo= u have an idea, problem space, or proposal that IETFers should hear about?<= /em>
Do you want to propose IETF or IRTF work but aren=E2=80=99t sur= e if your idea is ready or who will be interested?

Agenda requests are now being accepted for= the Request for Conversation (HotRFC) lightning talk session. Presenters w= ill have 4 minutes to make their case for collaboration. Interested folks c= an continue the discussion after the session. Goals include encouraging bra= instorming conversations, helping new work proposals find collaborators, ra= ising awareness of relevant work going on elsewhere, and promoting BarBoFs.= Past HotRFC topics covered a broad range of topics:

Collaboration:=C2=A0proposal= s for new standards work or new research topics that haven't been discu= ssed elsewhere, potentially relevant research that may be ready for the IET= F
Notification:=C2=A0new topics on the agenda in a work= ing group or research group, cross-area IETF work
Enlightenment:= =C2=A0updates on relevant technologies, industry advances that cou= ld affect IETF participants.

With strict time limits, concise talks will give viewers a sense of w= hether they=E2=80=99d like to know more and, importantly, coordinates on ho= w to do so.

With the hy= brid meeting we=E2=80=99re going to keep things rather simple and permit on= ly live presentations, either on-site or remote via MeetEcho.=C2=A0 Slides = must be submitted in advance. Video of the session will be recorded for lat= er viewing.

To request a slot, = submit a short abstract to=C2=A0hotrfc@ietf.org=C2=A0no lat= er than Friday, March 18th, 2400 UTC that includes the following
Tal= k title
Presenter, Affiliation
Short topic abstract (topics= should be IETF-related in some way)
Coordinates to learn more, con= tact those involved, &/or relevant formal or side meetings
All talks will be presented live, whether in-person or MeetEcho
Slides (ppt or pdf) must be submitted to=C2=A0hotrfc@ietf.org=C2=A0no later than Saturday, March 19th, 2400 UTC.
TALKS MUST BE= NO MORE THAN 4 MINUTES IN LENGTH.=C2=A0=C2=A0At four minutes exactly, we cut the microphone and t= ransition to the next speaker.
The session will be on= =C2=A0Sunday, March 20t= h at TIME_TBD, (expected to be during or after the IETF Welcome Recepti= on)=C2=A0

Talk ab= stracts will be posted on the meeting agenda and will be updated as request= s come in.

Thanks to Sp= encer Dawkins who will be chairing the session on-site.=C2=A0 I hope you=E2= =80=99ll tune in.

--aar= on & Spencer

--00000000000035c5be05da2df6fb-- From nobody Tue Mar 15 01:50:04 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93E1A3A1A7F for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 01:50:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J9AuTeRcOIfT for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 01:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52f.google.com (mail-ed1-x52f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33C363A1A7A for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 01:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id e22so521925edc.13 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 01:49:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=AhA67IpCMuavjy8i8od6jIcp8c2J0UO1RZSkmXifoEw=; b=GUPjXFjtIZW0hG8LwnTCyU0H66wxd/dXrn68X7OkUCMfPqbuauMYp/2koxOrUsd4HG UrdABGAiNN+dPbT5kzL3XwyFQwtuBgoUyzNqC7kMUjBXyx/W5yp9qfmrP5yMiu7f6Ktk B0zKzfO7mxo1R/P3k8UmaFQ3+XEfm6O3/S4ZLL1R8KLYe2SHkeR7IwLjoOvbxLez9RWb r54dAPNS1NNGY3tTbOVLlpYhVfxHhMRdHTsEL0eSA0lV8vyva9WI3n4cwZj8HkjzCHOn WINGLh82RnR6r4+nquSJE2k9DCqRhHmJRxHxSPgIBGpMA8I8009hgztNUQF05UxXvDae Djjw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=AhA67IpCMuavjy8i8od6jIcp8c2J0UO1RZSkmXifoEw=; b=vS1Rj7t1msTbUQWEpJO2lc4bmobq8fa8fM8Nn1OXaxpL8jKhQh1V6CoVtauDiHTuiK Sz3bUMuWTatHmO/rKp0oDAVeS0W+Rm6ETHv6Ux7jV3wCDm9w6powTTfKmJWVI7sJiv+0 C8/3Ug38yNy1jkiI4cyuOlBkVF9wUUOXRT/fmNBvqjOmiMgCYv2aai6Xm0O4eWwK8XRD WatzdmBT6T17XcccwfuhzgZJMwkobckIO1MriLBoPNbxfeHXDlNf8VnPMeRnGKuJlNlX Mv6SBaroVjjPtb5Gm+AF89CNwkEAO4OIsRpUPfJvSOkBOfvLgqPMek+bWLvHy+On92rV 2qCQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533TpPHoAk5rdYmy4zJKTYtXzUOGS33LtEOcQ5Mj3rcmtWg0Alyy G14E0NhaqK48SSBitOsOgot8v69FCYojbPoLIuM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzOeiOFM8iHw3F8/mLKTkPwaT0HmFyptvUK0pfxJSvOki8SKneeKx3bzi/eKMjHNEPk/u3cELTqUM3KEVsyVkQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:37a:b0:415:9501:e112 with SMTP id s26-20020a056402037a00b004159501e112mr24225157edw.402.1647334194001; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 01:49:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: David Lloyd-Jones Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 04:49:16 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet To: willi uebelherr Cc: ISOC Internet Policy , IRTF discuss , IETF discussion , ISOC Lia Kiessling , IGF governance Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000075bcde05da3de149" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 08:50:02 -0000 --00000000000075bcde05da3de149 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Willi, You have shown us that you are full of good sentiments. Quite a lot of them. Very good ones. I assume that you know something about the start and development of the Internet but no such knowledge has found its way into your long post. . First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or so, the 'Net was a solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1945. It was made possible by the invention of packet-switching in the mid-1960 to 70s. Johnny Foster, JFK's science advisor in 1961, was the first person I know of to have done solid financing of the effort. Bush was working on wide-scale computer networking, along with many other things, when I met him in his utterly false "retirement" in Lexington, Mass. in 1976. This was well before your Reagan Administration. The original present "internet" was ARPAnet (on which I was user #300 in 1971). This was financed before it really existed by ARPA when that "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed around at random in the Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added that "D," for defence, to pretend compliance with the Mansfield Amendment. I worked on this on Congressional staff in 1969-71 and at MIT in '72. The D was tacked on in December '71 or January '72, I forget, but had been in the works ever since Mansfied, as Senator, had tried to prevent military money from corrupting civilian research. Unfortunately, civilian researchers cried piteously that they wanted to be corrupted. By then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan.... When the scalability of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem limited, -- all those !!! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the development of the present TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When Cerf later went to work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR department tub-thumped that he was "the" founder of "the" Internet. Many people seem to have believed this inanity. More recently this has been toned down to "a" founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switching, the key invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom Cerf studied as a university student. Their much later contribution to TCP/IP has certainly been useful. On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi uebelherr via InternetPolicy < internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet > Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022 > > https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-calls-to-undermine-the-internet/ > > Dear friends, > > Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the Internet is > for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea. > > But the reality is different. The technical players acting today are not > interested in a free global communication of people, but in a > commercialization and capitalization of their needs for communication. > > This result did not come about by chance, but was already the essential > guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the USA under > Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection of local > Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, became a > privately and state organized system of interconnected star-systems, > "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". > > This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility to organize > access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we see today > that the system of a free global communication has turned into a field > of censorship and private control mania, organized by countries calling > themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized bullshit, > because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any directions > can lead to the same goal. > > The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human > communication "without borders" are those who call themselves > representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every diversity > with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil Rhodes is put > back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of communication that > is now elevated to the absolute. > > The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that does not > adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, as we saw > with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of the life of > an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power madness > it has developed into, where only private profit interests and state > delusions of control apply. > > The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the form of an > internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free access to > all people of our planet, independent of their social situation and > geographical position. > > That and only that is a "net of nets". > > with kind regards, willi > Asuncion, Paraguay > > > > in german ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Liebe freunde, > > Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf hingewiesen, "the > Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee. > > Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden technischen > Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der Menschen > interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und Kapitalisierung > ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation. > > Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war bereits zu > Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA unter > Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the Inter-connection of local > Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, wurde zu einem > privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen Sternsystemen, > "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". > > Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, nach > beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu organisieren. Und > wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen > Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn > entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich "der Westen" > nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten Schwachsinn, > weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit beliebige > Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen. > > Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien > menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als > Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede > Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form des > Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch gestellt. Die > Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die nun zum > absoluten Mass erhoben wird. > > Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das sich nicht > an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, wie wir es > bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der Lebensphase eines > Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster kleingeistigem > Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private Profitinteressen > und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten. > > Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation in Form > eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen Menschen > unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig von ihrer > sozialen Lage und geografischen Position. > > Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze". > > mit lieben gruessen, willi > Asuncion, Paraguay > > _______________________________________________ > To manage your Internet Society subscriptions > or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at > https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login > and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. > - > View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: > https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ > --00000000000075bcde05da3de149 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Willi,

You have=C2=A0shown us that you are full of = good sentiments. Quite a lot of them. Very good ones. I=C2=A0assume that yo= u know something about the=C2=A0start and development of the Internet but n= o such knowledge has found its way into your long post.
.
First propo= sed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or so, the=C2=A0'Net was a solid = policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1945. It was made possible by the = invention of packet-switching in the mid-1960 to 70s. Johnny Foster, JFK= 9;s science advisor in 1961, was the first person I know of to have done so= lid financing of the effort.=C2=A0 Bush was working on wide-scale computer = networking, along with many other things, when I met him in his utterly=C2= =A0false "retirement" in Lexington, Mass. in 1976.=C2=A0This was = well before your Reagan Administration.

The original present "internet" was ARPAnet=C2=A0 (on whi= ch I was user #300 in 1971). This was financed before it really existed by = ARPA when that "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed arou= nd at random in the Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added tha= t "D," for defence, to pretend compliance with the Mansfield Amen= dment. I worked on this on Congressional staff in 1969-71 and at MIT in = 9;72. The D was tacked on in December '71 or January '72, I forget,= but had been in the works ever since Mansfied, as Senator, had tried to pr= event military money from corrupting civilian research. Unfortunately, civi= lian researchers=C2=A0cried piteously that they wanted to be corrupted. By = then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan....=C2=A0

When the scalabilit= y of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem limited, -- all those !!= ! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the development of the p= resent TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When Cerf later went to = work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR department tub-thump= ed that he was "the"=C2=A0founder of "the" Internet. Ma= ny people seem to have believed this inanity. More recently this has been t= oned down to "a" founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switchin= g, the key invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom C= erf studied as a university student. Their=C2=A0much later contribution to = TCP/IP has certainly been useful.=C2=A0

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi = uebelherr via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote:

Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet
Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022
https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-c= alls-to-undermine-the-internet/

Dear friends,

Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the Internet is =
for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea.

But the reality is different. The technical players acting today are not interested in a free global communication of people, but in a
commercialization and capitalization of their needs for communication.

This result did not come about by chance, but was already the essential guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the USA under
Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection of local =
Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, became a privately and state organized system of interconnected star-systems,
"the inter-connection of private Star-Systems".

This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility to organize access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we see today
that the system of a free global communication has turned into a field
of censorship and private control mania, organized by countries calling themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized bul= lshit,
because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any directions
can lead to the same goal.

The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human
communication "without borders" are those who call themselves representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every dive= rsity
with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil Rhodes is pu= t
back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of communication that is now elevated to the absolute.

The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that does not
adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, as we saw with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of the life of an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power madness
it has developed into, where only private profit interests and state
delusions of control apply.

The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the form of an
internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free access to all people of our planet, independent of their social situation and
geographical position.

That and only that is a "net of nets".

with kind regards, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

in german -----------------------------------------------------------

Liebe freunde,

Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf hingewiesen, "the <= br> Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee.

Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden technischen Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der Menschen
interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und Kapitalisierung
ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation.

Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war bereits zu
Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA unter
Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the Inter-connection of loc= al
Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, wurde zu ein= em
privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen Sternsystemen, "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems".

Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, nach
beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu organisieren. Und
wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen
Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn
entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich "der Weste= n"
nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten Schwachsinn,
weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit beliebige
Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen.

Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien
menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als=
Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede =
Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form des
Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch gestellt. Die <= br> Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die nun zum
absoluten Mass erhoben wird.

Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das sich nicht an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, wie wir es
bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der Lebensphase eines
Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster kleingeistigem
Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private Profitinteressen und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten.

Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation in Form
eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen Menschen
unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig von ihrer
sozialen Lage und geografischen Position.

Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze".

mit lieben gruessen, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

_______________________________________________
To manage your Internet Society subscriptions
or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Log= in
and go to the Preferences tab within your profile.
-
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/=

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Nope, typo: 1966. On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 04:49, David Lloyd-Jones wrote: > Willi, > > You have shown us that you are full of good sentiments. Quite a lot of > them. Very good ones. I assume that you know something about the start and > development of the Internet but no such knowledge has found its way into > your long post. > . > First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or so, the 'Net was a > solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1945. It was made possible > by the invention of packet-switching in the mid-1960 to 70s. Johnny Foster, > JFK's science advisor in 1961, was the first person I know of to have done > solid financing of the effort. Bush was working on wide-scale computer > networking, along with many other things, when I met him in his > utterly false "retirement" in Lexington, Mass. in 1976. This was well > before your Reagan Administration. > > The original present "internet" was ARPAnet (on which I was user #300 in > 1971). This was financed before it really existed by ARPA when that > "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed around at random in the > Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added that "D," for defence, > to pretend compliance with the Mansfield Amendment. I worked on this on > Congressional staff in 1969-71 and at MIT in '72. The D was tacked on in > December '71 or January '72, I forget, but had been in the works ever since > Mansfied, as Senator, had tried to prevent military money from corrupting > civilian research. Unfortunately, civilian researchers cried piteously that > they wanted to be corrupted. By then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan.... > > When the scalability of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem > limited, -- all those !!! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the > development of the present TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When > Cerf later went to work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR > department tub-thumped that he was "the" founder of "the" Internet. Many > people seem to have believed this inanity. More recently this has been > toned down to "a" founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switching, the > key invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom Cerf > studied as a university student. Their much later contribution to TCP/IP > has certainly been useful. > > >> >> --00000000000029908205da3e44ea Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Correction: " =C2=A0in his utterly=C2=A0false "retirement" in Lexington, Mass. = in 1976."
Nope, typo: 1966.

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 04:49, Da= vid Lloyd-Jones <david.llo= ydjones@gmail.com> wrote:
Willi,

You have=C2=A0shown us that= you are full of good sentiments. Quite a lot of them. Very good ones. I=C2= =A0assume that you know something about the=C2=A0start and development of t= he Internet but no such knowledge has found its way into your long post..
First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or so, the=C2=A0'= ;Net was a solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1945. It was made= possible by the invention of packet-switching in the mid-1960 to 70s. John= ny Foster, JFK's science advisor in 1961, was the first person I know o= f to have done solid financing of the effort.=C2=A0 Bush was working on wid= e-scale computer networking, along with many other things, when I met him i= n his utterly=C2=A0false "retirement" in Lexington, Mass. in 1976= .=C2=A0This was well before your Reagan Administration.

The original present "internet" was ARPAnet=C2=A0 (on whi= ch I was user #300 in 1971). This was financed before it really existed by = ARPA when that "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed arou= nd at random in the Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added tha= t "D," for defence, to pretend compliance with the Mansfield Amen= dment. I worked on this on Congressional staff in 1969-71 and at MIT in = 9;72. The D was tacked on in December '71 or January '72, I forget,= but had been in the works ever since Mansfied, as Senator, had tried to pr= event military money from corrupting civilian research. Unfortunately, civi= lian researchers=C2=A0cried piteously that they wanted to be corrupted. By = then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan....=C2=A0

When the scalabilit= y of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem limited, -- all those !!= ! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the development of the p= resent TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When Cerf later went to = work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR department tub-thump= ed that he was "the"=C2=A0founder of "the" Internet. Ma= ny people seem to have believed this inanity. More recently this has been t= oned down to "a" founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switchin= g, the key invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom C= erf studied as a university student. Their=C2=A0much later contribution to = TCP/IP has certainly been useful.=C2=A0

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Arpanet was never called "Darpanet" 2. I don't think we ever "numbered" users since getting on the Arpanet was mostly by having an account on a time-sharing computer at a university (or research lab) that had an ARPA contract. 3. "bangs" were at email level, not Arpanet (or Internet) level of routing. The "bang" email addresses aided routing through application level gateways. 4. Bob Kahn, Dave Walden, Frank Heart and many others at BBN did the Arpanet IMP design. The Arpanet Host-Host NCP effort was led by Steve Crocker (Jon Postel and I and others helped) and stabilized enough to support email in 1971 and a public demonstration in October 1972. The Internet work started the next year in 1973. Since Internet was conceived as a network of networks, you needed more than one network to make an Internet. There were three to begin with: Arpanet, Packet Radio Net and Packet Satellite Net, all funded by ARPA. On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 4:50 AM David Lloyd-Jones via InternetPolicy < internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Willi, > > You have shown us that you are full of good sentiments. Quite a lot of > them. Very good ones. I assume that you know something about the start and > development of the Internet but no such knowledge has found its way into > your long post. > . > First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or so, the 'Net was a > solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1945. It was made possible > by the invention of packet-switching in the mid-1960 to 70s. Johnny Foster, > JFK's science advisor in 1961, was the first person I know of to have done > solid financing of the effort. Bush was working on wide-scale computer > networking, along with many other things, when I met him in his > utterly false "retirement" in Lexington, Mass. in 1976. This was well > before your Reagan Administration. > > The original present "internet" was ARPAnet (on which I was user #300 in > 1971). This was financed before it really existed by ARPA when that > "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed around at random in the > Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added that "D," for defence, > to pretend compliance with the Mansfield Amendment. I worked on this on > Congressional staff in 1969-71 and at MIT in '72. The D was tacked on in > December '71 or January '72, I forget, but had been in the works ever since > Mansfied, as Senator, had tried to prevent military money from corrupting > civilian research. Unfortunately, civilian researchers cried piteously that > they wanted to be corrupted. By then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan.... > > When the scalability of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem > limited, -- all those !!! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the > development of the present TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When > Cerf later went to work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR > department tub-thumped that he was "the" founder of "the" Internet. Many > people seem to have believed this inanity. More recently this has been > toned down to "a" founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switching, the > key invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom Cerf > studied as a university student. Their much later contribution to TCP/IP > has certainly been useful. > > On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi uebelherr via InternetPolicy < > internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> >> Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet >> Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022 >> >> https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-calls-to-undermine-the-internet/ >> >> Dear friends, >> >> Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the Internet is >> for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea. >> >> But the reality is different. The technical players acting today are not >> interested in a free global communication of people, but in a >> commercialization and capitalization of their needs for communication. >> >> This result did not come about by chance, but was already the essential >> guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the USA under >> Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection of local >> Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, became a >> privately and state organized system of interconnected star-systems, >> "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". >> >> This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility to organize >> access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we see today >> that the system of a free global communication has turned into a field >> of censorship and private control mania, organized by countries calling >> themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized bullshit, >> because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any directions >> can lead to the same goal. >> >> The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human >> communication "without borders" are those who call themselves >> representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every diversity >> with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil Rhodes is put >> back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of communication that >> is now elevated to the absolute. >> >> The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that does not >> adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, as we saw >> with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of the life of >> an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power madness >> it has developed into, where only private profit interests and state >> delusions of control apply. >> >> The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the form of an >> internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free access to >> all people of our planet, independent of their social situation and >> geographical position. >> >> That and only that is a "net of nets". >> >> with kind regards, willi >> Asuncion, Paraguay >> >> >> >> in german ----------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Liebe freunde, >> >> Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf hingewiesen, "the >> Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee. >> >> Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden technischen >> Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der Menschen >> interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und Kapitalisierung >> ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation. >> >> Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war bereits zu >> Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA unter >> Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the Inter-connection of local >> Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, wurde zu einem >> privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen Sternsystemen, >> "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". >> >> Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, nach >> beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu organisieren. Und >> wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen >> Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn >> entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich "der Westen" >> nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten Schwachsinn, >> weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit beliebige >> Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen. >> >> Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien >> menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als >> Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede >> Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form des >> Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch gestellt. Die >> Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die nun zum >> absoluten Mass erhoben wird. >> >> Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das sich nicht >> an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, wie wir es >> bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der Lebensphase eines >> Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster kleingeistigem >> Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private Profitinteressen >> und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten. >> >> Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation in Form >> eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen Menschen >> unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig von ihrer >> sozialen Lage und geografischen Position. >> >> Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze". >> >> mit lieben gruessen, willi >> Asuncion, Paraguay >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To manage your Internet Society subscriptions >> or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at >> https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login >> and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. >> - >> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: >> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ >> > _______________________________________________ > To manage your Internet Society subscriptions > or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at > https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login > and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. > - > View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: > https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ > --00000000000077847905da4086fc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
1. Arpanet was never called "Darpanet"
2. I don't t= hink we ever "numbered" users since getting on the Arpanet was mo= stly by having an account on a time-sharing computer at a university (or re= search lab) that had an ARPA contract.=C2=A0
3. "bangs" were at em= ail level, not Arpanet (or Internet) level of routing. The "bang"= email addresses aided routing through application level gateways.=C2=A0
4. = Bob Kahn, Dave Walden, Frank Heart and many others at BBN did the Arpanet I= MP design. The Arpanet Host-Host NCP effort was led by Steve Crocker (Jon P= ostel and I and others helped) and stabilized enough to support email=C2=A0= in 1971 and a public demonstration in October 1972. The Internet work start= ed the next year in 1973. Since Internet was conceived as a network of netw= orks, you needed more than one network to make an Internet. There were thre= e to begin with: Arpanet, Packet Radio Net and Packet Satellite Net, all fu= nded by ARPA.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 4:50 AM David Lloyd-Jones via In= ternetPolicy <internet= policy@elists.isoc.org> wrote:
Willi,

You have=C2=A0shown us= that you are full of good sentiments. Quite a lot of them. Very good ones.= I=C2=A0assume that you know something about the=C2=A0start and development= of the Internet but no such knowledge has found its way into your long pos= t.
.
First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or so, the=C2= =A0'Net was a solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1945. It w= as made possible by the invention of packet-switching in the mid-1960 to 70= s. Johnny Foster, JFK's science advisor in 1961, was the first person I= know of to have done solid financing of the effort.=C2=A0 Bush was working= on wide-scale computer networking, along with many other things, when I me= t him in his utterly=C2=A0false "retirement" in Lexington, Mass. = in 1976.=C2=A0This was well before your Reagan Administration.

The original present "internet" was ARPAnet=C2=A0 (on whi= ch I was user #300 in 1971). This was financed before it really existed by = ARPA when that "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed arou= nd at random in the Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added tha= t "D," for defence, to pretend compliance with the Mansfield Amen= dment. I worked on this on Congressional staff in 1969-71 and at MIT in = 9;72. The D was tacked on in December '71 or January '72, I forget,= but had been in the works ever since Mansfied, as Senator, had tried to pr= event military money from corrupting civilian research. Unfortunately, civi= lian researchers=C2=A0cried piteously that they wanted to be corrupted. By = then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan....=C2=A0

When the scalabilit= y of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem limited, -- all those !!= ! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the development of the p= resent TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When Cerf later went to = work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR department tub-thump= ed that he was "the"=C2=A0founder of "the" Internet. Ma= ny people seem to have believed this inanity. More recently this has been t= oned down to "a" founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switchin= g, the key invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom C= erf studied as a university student. Their=C2=A0much later contribution to = TCP/IP has certainly been useful.=C2=A0

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi = uebelherr via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote:
=

Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet
Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022
https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-c= alls-to-undermine-the-internet/

Dear friends,

Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the Internet is =
for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea.

But the reality is different. The technical players acting today are not interested in a free global communication of people, but in a
commercialization and capitalization of their needs for communication.

This result did not come about by chance, but was already the essential guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the USA under
Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection of local =
Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, became a privately and state organized system of interconnected star-systems,
"the inter-connection of private Star-Systems".

This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility to organize access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we see today
that the system of a free global communication has turned into a field
of censorship and private control mania, organized by countries calling themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized bul= lshit,
because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any directions
can lead to the same goal.

The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human
communication "without borders" are those who call themselves representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every dive= rsity
with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil Rhodes is pu= t
back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of communication that is now elevated to the absolute.

The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that does not
adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, as we saw with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of the life of an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power madness
it has developed into, where only private profit interests and state
delusions of control apply.

The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the form of an
internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free access to all people of our planet, independent of their social situation and
geographical position.

That and only that is a "net of nets".

with kind regards, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

in german -----------------------------------------------------------

Liebe freunde,

Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf hingewiesen, "the <= br> Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee.

Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden technischen Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der Menschen
interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und Kapitalisierung
ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation.

Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war bereits zu
Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA unter
Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the Inter-connection of loc= al
Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, wurde zu ein= em
privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen Sternsystemen, "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems".

Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, nach
beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu organisieren. Und
wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen
Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn
entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich "der Weste= n"
nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten Schwachsinn,
weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit beliebige
Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen.

Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien
menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als=
Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede =
Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form des
Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch gestellt. Die <= br> Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die nun zum
absoluten Mass erhoben wird.

Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das sich nicht an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, wie wir es
bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der Lebensphase eines
Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster kleingeistigem
Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private Profitinteressen und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten.

Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation in Form
eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen Menschen
unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig von ihrer
sozialen Lage und geografischen Position.

Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze".

mit lieben gruessen, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

_______________________________________________
To manage your Internet Society subscriptions
or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Log= in
and go to the Preferences tab within your profile.
-
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/=

_______________________________________________
To manage your Internet Society subscriptions
or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Log= in
and go to the Preferences tab within your profile.
-
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/=

--00000000000077847905da4086fc-- From nobody Tue Mar 15 06:00:22 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 697943A1BC0 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:00:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=shinkuro-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TJpQTvg0TQI2 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x534.google.com (mail-ed1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0DB93A1BBB for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x534.google.com with SMTP id t1so23866569edc.3 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:00:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=shinkuro-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LmWiJ9Eygri0v1/rtYNGkUrb3khefn+c3jmpiLTiL9o=; b=UTkmVdB7aAWlBqDXMx5h6I74+R6xjENENYi43K3khYxVMwd7zcP788XqDCay1LApCa g+rVt+sA6jrHRLSYB2T5BVbFsHZXWlCl9uceY0pwY9aZJGqXK91mLb0O4DseqRync1B0 4+xssfDoCkzUhdBaJDoF00ss+E7SsVsiXPo5SIVlqwFC2wU/czoFUr1fR4ndOToK1Wu8 Bam51y2u9T5Yw9mSPd3PveIV6Mi9+dn5XHtwLwXNdHSOBFjNefoySlM5gXuZ+p5pqIeV NXOCEl95YnBdRjkik/1eMHT9W+VCsab/nnKHOkx+WeMQ+uZSRAaQf+qs8ouIQ6hWffhK 5x+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LmWiJ9Eygri0v1/rtYNGkUrb3khefn+c3jmpiLTiL9o=; b=vxVgFQX5Jd5n+tiL9m2Blw48Bw5oBQXR5sHcSZjndRdpoyiqS2KXY1mhWqLMJ8Xxne c/kReZaFIqLBP2lnSNNohxFTpIAAfi5seP0OVfHn5raBA5OhC3liDwN2lY5Z3svYKu7B RiG4cYE9Qnb8P16KJC1JDDTyjSZYP6LLWiN5dMf/bme8ZlUMkNE+MgZGWITbK3SFJ6XK +AGHpalx1Ch9JRRAHFjjMvDtEHL9odacgazZQi5CRGgsc2YKmrAvBr3M+5T/JCHDrl1d LTq6ilqp409FN4rfAr7C1QWvbJEulv72QKNZq9Cn/eqzzo8FqSzuO7U+3GtZnFWkPeWu cluA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532WSc77NagSOmqj4jHhU3iplAt3EN7OhdI4Gg1odp3wJVr5Frjc y1BcE0qviHOIQ/xPiKhzGq4Khuo3eiJtPy9MwIWskw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwr9NMZAE3M6w5xIHXg7Fyq5mPLsD7KKJXGeXEkz5FLNqV4ytA4yT80/7eMh4lG+CasYpNxK5QTQLdcxA0u7HA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:518c:b0:416:b9bb:46d with SMTP id q12-20020a056402518c00b00416b9bb046dmr22993229edd.297.1647349208500; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:00:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Steve Crocker Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 08:59:57 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet To: vinton cerf Cc: David Lloyd-Jones , IRTF discuss , IETF discussion , ISOC Lia Kiessling , IGF governance , ISOC Internet Policy , Steve Crocker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000064e9cf05da416098" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 13:00:17 -0000 --00000000000064e9cf05da416098 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Adding to Vint's comments: I was at (D)ARPA from mid 1971 to mid 1974. Bob Kahn arrived in late 1972. Vint came a few years after I left. The Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) was created in 1958 in response to the launch of Sputnik. It was placed within the Defense Department's Office of the Secretary of Defense (OSD). I believe OSD was about 2,000 people. ARPA was approximately 150 people. It was purposefully structured as an agile operation, authorized to define its own projects and get them moving quickly. Its authority and operation were overseen by both DoD management and the relevant Congressional committees and subcommittees. "Slush fund" is a pejorative term that mischaracterizes the organization. In 1972, following a decision to reduce the size of OSD, ARPA was moved out of OSD and became a Defense agency. This put it in the same status as the other Defense agencies, e.g., Defense Mapping Agency (DMA), Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), Defense Nuclear Agency (DNA), et al. In the process, "ARPA" acquired the "D" and became DARPA. There was no appreciable change in the mission, structure or operation of the agency. On paper, the director of DARPA now reported directly to the Secretary of Defense instead of the Defense Director for Research and Engineering (DDR&E). In practice, the reporting lines remained the same. I don't believe the transition had anything to do with the Mansfield amendment. (D)ARPA was unabashedly doing work on a wide range of military technologies both before and after the transition. Each internal funding memo included a section describing the relevance of the effort being funded to the overall DoD mission. I wrote my share of these, as did every program manager. See the next paragraphs for a key point related to this. Internally, (D)ARPA is divided into a handful of Offices. Each Office focuses on specific technologies. Offices are created, folded down, and renamed at various times. In the beginning, ARPA focused on the space program. In 1962, the Information Processing Techniques Office (IPTO) was formed to focus on advanced computer science technology. JCR Licklider was the first director. The Office funded research across a broad spectrum of computer science topics ranging from time-sharing systems, graphics, multiprocessor architectures, and artificial intelligence. Many of these ideas had already been articulated and pursued in a few labs around the country. IPTO was able to put considerably more money into these areas. The Offices were how the agency was structured from a personnel point of view. From a budget point of view, the agency was structured in terms of "programs." Each program had a budget and an objective. These were documented and reported to DoD management and Congress each year. Most of the Offices had programs that were intended to yield results within a few years. However, IPTO, the Materials Science Office, and the Behavioral Sciences Office funded research with a *much* longer time horizon. These were considered "basic research" offices, in contrast to the other "development" Offices. The aggregate funding for basic research was just a small fraction of the overall (D)ARPA budget, which meant that most of (D)ARPA's funding was producing visible results fairly regularly. The budgets and progress of the basic research Offices were still reviewed annually, but the expectations were adjusted. The terms "basic research" and "development" correspond to the budget designations "6.1" and "6.2." Line 6 in McNamara's famous reorganization of the Defense budget was Research, Development, Test and Engineering (RDT&E), with designations of 6.1 through 6.4. The funding levels were significantly different, i.e. 6.1 << 6.2 << 6.3 << 6.4. (D)ARPA's funding was limited to just 6.1 and 6.2 programs. In terms of its budget, IPTO evolved and became a hybrid Office with two programs, one with 6.1 funding and one with 6.2 funding. The artificial intelligence work was part of the 6.1 budget. The big system developments, e.g., Illiac IV and Multics, were part of the 6.2 budget. As noted, the idea of a network had been written about and was definitely part of the vision. There were a handful of small efforts to connect two or three computers. The Arpanet was conceived and initiated in 1965-66. After a couple of years of planning, the Request for Quotation for the IMPs was released in 1968. Bolt, Beranek and Newman (BBN) in Cambridge, MA was selected, and work began in 1969. The first IMP was delivered to UCLA at the beginning of September that year. When the Arpanet was up and running, IPTO began to look at packet radio and packet satellite networking. With strong support from the director of the agency, Steve Lukasik, a third budget line item was created, also within the overall 6.2 budget, that focused on communications. ============================ I believe the use of the exclamation point (!), informally called "bang," was part of the UUNET routing scheme, not the Arpanet routing or email addressing. Steve On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 7:59 AM vinton cerf via InternetPolicy < internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote: > 1. Arpanet was never called "Darpanet" > 2. I don't think we ever "numbered" users since getting on the Arpanet was > mostly by having an account on a time-sharing computer at a university (or > research lab) that had an ARPA contract. > 3. "bangs" were at email level, not Arpanet (or Internet) level of > routing. The "bang" email addresses aided routing through application level > gateways. > 4. Bob Kahn, Dave Walden, Frank Heart and many others at BBN did the > Arpanet IMP design. The Arpanet Host-Host NCP effort was led by Steve > Crocker (Jon Postel and I and others helped) and stabilized enough to > support email in 1971 and a public demonstration in October 1972. The > Internet work started the next year in 1973. Since Internet was conceived > as a network of networks, you needed more than one network to make an > Internet. There were three to begin with: Arpanet, Packet Radio Net and > Packet Satellite Net, all funded by ARPA. > > On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 4:50 AM David Lloyd-Jones via InternetPolicy < > internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> Willi, >> >> You have shown us that you are full of good sentiments. Quite a lot of >> them. Very good ones. I assume that you know something about the start and >> development of the Internet but no such knowledge has found its way into >> your long post. >> . >> First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or so, the 'Net was a >> solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1945. It was made possible >> by the invention of packet-switching in the mid-1960 to 70s. Johnny Foster, >> JFK's science advisor in 1961, was the first person I know of to have done >> solid financing of the effort. Bush was working on wide-scale computer >> networking, along with many other things, when I met him in his >> utterly false "retirement" in Lexington, Mass. in 1976. This was well >> before your Reagan Administration. >> >> The original present "internet" was ARPAnet (on which I was user #300 in >> 1971). This was financed before it really existed by ARPA when that >> "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed around at random in the >> Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added that "D," for defence, >> to pretend compliance with the Mansfield Amendment. I worked on this on >> Congressional staff in 1969-71 and at MIT in '72. The D was tacked on in >> December '71 or January '72, I forget, but had been in the works ever since >> Mansfied, as Senator, had tried to prevent military money from corrupting >> civilian research. Unfortunately, civilian researchers cried piteously that >> they wanted to be corrupted. By then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan.... >> >> When the scalability of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem >> limited, -- all those !!! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the >> development of the present TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When >> Cerf later went to work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR >> department tub-thumped that he was "the" founder of "the" Internet. Many >> people seem to have believed this inanity. More recently this has been >> toned down to "a" founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switching, the >> key invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom Cerf >> studied as a university student. Their much later contribution to TCP/IP >> has certainly been useful. >> >> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi uebelherr via InternetPolicy < >> internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet >>> Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022 >>> >>> https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-calls-to-undermine-the-internet/ >>> >>> Dear friends, >>> >>> Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the Internet is >>> for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea. >>> >>> But the reality is different. The technical players acting today are not >>> interested in a free global communication of people, but in a >>> commercialization and capitalization of their needs for communication. >>> >>> This result did not come about by chance, but was already the essential >>> guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the USA under >>> Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection of local >>> Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, became a >>> privately and state organized system of interconnected star-systems, >>> "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". >>> >>> This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility to organize >>> access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we see today >>> that the system of a free global communication has turned into a field >>> of censorship and private control mania, organized by countries calling >>> themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized bullshit, >>> because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any directions >>> can lead to the same goal. >>> >>> The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human >>> communication "without borders" are those who call themselves >>> representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every diversity >>> with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil Rhodes is put >>> back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of communication that >>> is now elevated to the absolute. >>> >>> The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that does not >>> adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, as we saw >>> with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of the life of >>> an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power madness >>> it has developed into, where only private profit interests and state >>> delusions of control apply. >>> >>> The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the form of an >>> internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free access to >>> all people of our planet, independent of their social situation and >>> geographical position. >>> >>> That and only that is a "net of nets". >>> >>> with kind regards, willi >>> Asuncion, Paraguay >>> >>> >>> >>> in german ----------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Liebe freunde, >>> >>> Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf hingewiesen, "the >>> Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee. >>> >>> Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden technischen >>> Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der Menschen >>> interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und Kapitalisierung >>> ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation. >>> >>> Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war bereits zu >>> Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA unter >>> Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the Inter-connection of local >>> Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, wurde zu einem >>> privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen Sternsystemen, >>> "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". >>> >>> Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, nach >>> beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu organisieren. Und >>> wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen >>> Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn >>> entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich "der Westen" >>> nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten Schwachsinn, >>> weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit beliebige >>> Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen. >>> >>> Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien >>> menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als >>> Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede >>> Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form des >>> Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch gestellt. Die >>> Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die nun zum >>> absoluten Mass erhoben wird. >>> >>> Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das sich nicht >>> an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, wie wir es >>> bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der Lebensphase eines >>> Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster kleingeistigem >>> Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private Profitinteressen >>> und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten. >>> >>> Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation in Form >>> eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen Menschen >>> unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig von ihrer >>> sozialen Lage und geografischen Position. >>> >>> Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze". >>> >>> mit lieben gruessen, willi >>> Asuncion, Paraguay >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To manage your Internet Society subscriptions >>> or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at >>> https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login >>> and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. >>> - >>> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: >>> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> To manage your Internet Society subscriptions >> or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at >> https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login >> and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. >> - >> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: >> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ >> > _______________________________________________ > To manage your Internet Society subscriptions > or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at > https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login > and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. > - > View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: > https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ > --00000000000064e9cf05da416098 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Adding to Vint'= ;s comments:

I= was at (D)ARPA from mid 1971 to mid 1974.=C2=A0 Bob Kahn arrived in late 1= 972.=C2=A0 Vint came a few years after I left.
=
The Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARP= A) was created in 1958 in response to the launch of Sputnik.=C2=A0 It was p= laced within the Defense Department's Office of the Secretary of Defens= e (OSD).=C2=A0 I believe OSD was about 2,000 people.=C2=A0 ARPA was approxi= mately 150 people.=C2=A0 It was purposefully structured as an agile operati= on, authorized to define its own projects and get them moving quickly.=C2= =A0 Its authority and operation were overseen by both DoD management and th= e relevant Congressional committees and subcommittees.=C2=A0 "Slush fu= nd" is a pejorative=C2=A0term that mischaracterizes the organization.<= /div>

In 1972, follo= wing a decision to reduce the size of OSD, ARPA was moved out of OSD and be= came a Defense agency.=C2=A0 This put it in the same status as the other De= fense agencies, e.g., Defense Mapping Agency (DMA), Defense Intelligence Ag= ency (DIA), Defense Nuclear Agency (DNA), et al.=C2=A0 In the process, &quo= t;ARPA" acquired the "D" and became DARPA.=C2=A0 There was n= o appreciable change in the mission, structure or operation of the agency.= =C2=A0 On paper, the director of DARPA now reported directly to the Secreta= ry of Defense instead of the Defense Director for Research and Engineering = (DDR&E).=C2=A0 In practice, the reporting lines remained the same.=C2= =A0 I don't believe the transition had anything to do with the Mansfiel= d amendment.=C2=A0 (D)ARPA was unabashedly doing work on a wide range of mi= litary technologies both before and after the transition.=C2=A0 Each intern= al funding=C2=A0 memo included a section describing the relevance of the ef= fort being funded to the overall DoD mission.=C2=A0 I wrote my share of the= se, as did every program manager.=C2=A0 See the next paragraphs for a key p= oint related to this.

Internally, (D)ARPA is divided into a handful of Offices.=C2=A0 Eac= h Office focuses on specific technologies.=C2=A0 Offices are created, folde= d down, and renamed at various times.=C2=A0 In the beginning, ARPA focused = on the space program.=C2=A0 In 1962, the Information Processing Techniques = Office (IPTO) was formed to focus on advanced computer science technology.= =C2=A0 JCR Licklider was the first director.=C2=A0 The Office funded resear= ch across a broad spectrum of computer science topics ranging from time-sha= ring systems, graphics, multiprocessor architectures, and artificial intell= igence.=C2=A0 Many of these ideas had already been articulated and pursued = in a few labs around the country.=C2=A0 IPTO was able to put considerably= =C2=A0more money into these areas.

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size= :small;color:#000000">The Offices were how the agency was structured from a= personnel point of view.=C2=A0 From a budget point of view, the agency was= structured in terms of "programs."=C2=A0 Each program had a budg= et and an objective.=C2=A0 These were documented and reported to DoD manage= ment and Congress each year.

Most of the Offices had programs that were intended to yield= results within a few years.=C2=A0 However, IPTO, the Materials Science Off= ice, and the Behavioral Sciences Office funded research with a *much* longe= r time horizon.=C2=A0 These were considered "basic research" offi= ces, in contrast to the other "development" Offices.=C2=A0 The ag= gregate funding for basic research was just a small fraction of the overall= (D)ARPA budget, which meant that most of (D)ARPA's funding was produci= ng visible results fairly regularly.=C2=A0 The budgets and progress of the = basic research Offices were still reviewed annually, but the expectations w= ere adjusted.

= The terms "basic research" and "development" correspond= to the budget designations "6.1" and "6.2."=C2=A0 Line= 6 in McNamara's famous reorganization of the Defense budget was Resear= ch, Development, Test and Engineering (RDT&E), with designations of 6.1= through 6.4.=C2=A0 The funding levels were significantly different, i.e. 6= .1 << 6.2 << 6.3 << 6.4.=C2=A0 (D)ARPA's funding was = limited to just 6.1 and 6.2 programs.

In terms of its budget, IPTO evolved and became a h= ybrid Office with two programs, one with 6.1 funding and one with 6.2 fundi= ng.=C2=A0 The artificial intelligence work was part of the 6.1 budget.=C2= =A0 The big system developments, e.g., Illiac=C2=A0IV and Multics, were par= t of the 6.2 budget.

As noted, the idea of a network had been written about and was defin= itely part of the vision.=C2=A0 There were a handful of small efforts to co= nnect two or three computers.=C2=A0 The Arpanet was conceived and initiated= in 1965-66.=C2=A0 After a couple of years of planning, the Request for Quo= tation for the IMPs was released in 1968.=C2=A0 Bolt, Beranek and Newman (B= BN) in Cambridge, MA was selected, and work began in 1969.=C2=A0 The first = IMP was delivered to UCLA at the beginning of September that year.

When the Arpanet was u= p and running, IPTO began to look at packet radio and packet satellite netw= orking.=C2=A0 With strong support from the director of the agency, Steve Lu= kasik, a third budget line item was created, also within the overall 6.2 bu= dget, that focused on communications.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size= :small;color:#000000">I believe the use of the exclamation point=C2=A0(!), = informally called "bang," was part of the UUNET routing scheme, n= ot the Arpanet routing or email addressing.
Steve

<= /div>
O= n Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 7:59 AM vinton cerf via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy= @elists.isoc.org> wrote:
1. Arpanet was never called "Darpanet"
2. I don't think we ever "numbere= d" users since getting on the Arpanet was mostly by having an account = on a time-sharing computer at a university (or research lab) that had an AR= PA contract.=C2=A0
3. = "bangs" were at email level, not Arpanet (or Internet) level of r= outing. The "bang" email addresses aided routing through applicat= ion level gateways.=C2=A0
4. Bob Kahn, Dave Walden, Frank Heart and many others at BBN did the Ar= panet IMP design. The Arpanet Host-Host NCP effort was led by Steve Crocker= (Jon Postel and I and others helped) and stabilized enough to support emai= l=C2=A0in 1971 and a public demonstration in October 1972. The Internet wor= k started the next year in 1973. Since Internet was conceived as a network = of networks, you needed more than one network to make an Internet. There we= re three to begin with: Arpanet, Packet Radio Net and Packet Satellite Net,= all funded by ARPA.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 4:50 AM David Lloyd-Jones= via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote:
Willi,
<= br>You have=C2=A0shown us that you are full of good sentiments. Quite a lot= of them. Very good ones. I=C2=A0assume that you know something about the= =C2=A0start and development of the Internet but no such knowledge has found= its way into your long post.
.
First proposed by Bacon in the fiftee= nth century or so, the=C2=A0'Net was a solid policy proposal made by Va= nnevar Bush in 1945. It was made possible by the invention of packet-switch= ing in the mid-1960 to 70s. Johnny Foster, JFK's science advisor in 196= 1, was the first person I know of to have done solid financing of the effor= t.=C2=A0 Bush was working on wide-scale computer networking, along with man= y other things, when I met him in his utterly=C2=A0false "retirement&q= uot; in Lexington, Mass. in 1976.=C2=A0This was well before your Reagan Adm= inistration.

The original present "internet" was ARPAnet=C2=A0 (on whi= ch I was user #300 in 1971). This was financed before it really existed by = ARPA when that "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed arou= nd at random in the Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added tha= t "D," for defence, to pretend compliance with the Mansfield Amen= dment. I worked on this on Congressional staff in 1969-71 and at MIT in = 9;72. The D was tacked on in December '71 or January '72, I forget,= but had been in the works ever since Mansfied, as Senator, had tried to pr= event military money from corrupting civilian research. Unfortunately, civi= lian researchers=C2=A0cried piteously that they wanted to be corrupted. By = then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan....=C2=A0

When the scalabilit= y of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem limited, -- all those !!= ! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the development of the p= resent TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When Cerf later went to = work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR department tub-thump= ed that he was "the"=C2=A0founder of "the" Internet. Ma= ny people seem to have believed this inanity. More recently this has been t= oned down to "a" founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switchin= g, the key invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom C= erf studied as a university student. Their=C2=A0much later contribution to = TCP/IP has certainly been useful.=C2=A0

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi = uebelherr via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote:
=

Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet
Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022
https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-c= alls-to-undermine-the-internet/

Dear friends,

Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the Internet is =
for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea.

But the reality is different. The technical players acting today are not interested in a free global communication of people, but in a
commercialization and capitalization of their needs for communication.

This result did not come about by chance, but was already the essential guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the USA under
Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection of local =
Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, became a privately and state organized system of interconnected star-systems,
"the inter-connection of private Star-Systems".

This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility to organize access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we see today
that the system of a free global communication has turned into a field
of censorship and private control mania, organized by countries calling themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized bul= lshit,
because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any directions
can lead to the same goal.

The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human
communication "without borders" are those who call themselves representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every dive= rsity
with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil Rhodes is pu= t
back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of communication that is now elevated to the absolute.

The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that does not
adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, as we saw with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of the life of an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power madness
it has developed into, where only private profit interests and state
delusions of control apply.

The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the form of an
internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free access to all people of our planet, independent of their social situation and
geographical position.

That and only that is a "net of nets".

with kind regards, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

in german -----------------------------------------------------------

Liebe freunde,

Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf hingewiesen, "the <= br> Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee.

Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden technischen Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der Menschen
interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und Kapitalisierung
ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation.

Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war bereits zu
Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA unter
Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the Inter-connection of loc= al
Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, wurde zu ein= em
privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen Sternsystemen, "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems".

Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, nach
beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu organisieren. Und
wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen
Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn
entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich "der Weste= n"
nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten Schwachsinn,
weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit beliebige
Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen.

Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien
menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als=
Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede =
Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form des
Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch gestellt. Die <= br> Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die nun zum
absoluten Mass erhoben wird.

Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das sich nicht an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, wie wir es
bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der Lebensphase eines
Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster kleingeistigem
Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private Profitinteressen und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten.

Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation in Form
eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen Menschen
unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig von ihrer
sozialen Lage und geografischen Position.

Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze".

mit lieben gruessen, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

_______________________________________________
To manage your Internet Society subscriptions
or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
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and go to the Preferences tab within your profile.
-
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/=

_______________________________________________
To manage your Internet Society subscriptions
or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
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-
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/=

_______________________________________________
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or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
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-
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/=

--00000000000064e9cf05da416098-- From nobody Tue Mar 15 06:28:45 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 520133A1BEB for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:28:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FV8QM1w8Bdjr for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ej1-x633.google.com (mail-ej1-x633.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::633]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC5A83A1338 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x633.google.com with SMTP id pv16so1928493ejb.0 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:28:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+2y0CnG6rADj8BR8FWILFIZ9XmFxkIjy90x1wuUKkXE=; b=mfRUZ2RhG/ANXI9bHL8XrDLSxvZsChUht3HuYVdlH6LLiKe+Cmi5sgUkNmnhJQZirV wA3PMEPncQT9z70ZG85MtClt8qASVa/g2/LZaGevMnZCq24DDZzuGh+s3j303CIcOo0G OwJOgRp9Qj0Y2ttONzcsdUwm91ODnnbVlqRucX7MC9wuHd3oCL+lyC54gDW/fbZBZ9Bt ZC74iUZByNTfFh1ewCb6hT5nJOHW0dV/9mjVvdWlj71pjb3gyHPotVU9wocTr2oFnjth tUzamvnsihFsuMMLk9GtkoTj2z27qCQ0YqWtyV9WR2WVqzkO0BQfam0hGAUTwoKjkRP1 8o1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+2y0CnG6rADj8BR8FWILFIZ9XmFxkIjy90x1wuUKkXE=; b=DOwd6Y0/DykckJRccTE3GC1kB0xWJtVAs97Aa7NVjhvwIk0t7m2XE/YtD6FlNjkjs2 kOmREWU2I7h1eJpElQQvYr7poImqGxXiGVN6oebFz9IoE2dzJRVdWmMDIiYKxcrjaVjF BRO0V6BF5XnOp8KC9rff7HUeQAF1pnxYTOFmcTIlsqev2OeHBH+U410TKJk2muCD2pvc oc1Ustc0DR20l3cSIGf1PoZu4nqS6nLQQFKRuVRzPNnbsy8FPAE5BUYzo9Y/ofoB/OyJ eiLr9D1/s52JVz89j24ZHT95pDsRMrucA6LAbMv1n89gvFKKalMQNld5GyC3n0BDvvsI Dq2g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533gCHIuiG3suSTSqRKTi5StXUi3wZ0MDUSD/C4jb6s5JYqygmY3 /drAMFgRtdsup+42BmlNhsmaUzu6r6bllXq+CmM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxSdM5o20Rm1iCxmvkE49n5pj6vs34xKOHccqyyuz2jhYyrnKtuVbtIx7EsxpBM/QcF3wJ5eafwt3hWcfpibaM= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:7d8a:b0:6db:3261:d8de with SMTP id oz10-20020a1709077d8a00b006db3261d8demr24167430ejc.239.1647350914746; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:28:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: David Lloyd-Jones Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 09:27:57 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet To: Steve Crocker Cc: vinton cerf , IRTF discuss , IETF discussion , ISOC Lia Kiessling , IGF governance , ISOC Internet Policy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000180f7805da41c6ee" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 13:28:43 -0000 --000000000000180f7805da41c6ee Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Steve, A fine piece, though you take the Official Truths a little too seriously. "Structured as an agile operation," may be said to be a sweet and nice way of saying "slush fund." "Overseen by both DoD management and the relevant Congressional committees and subcommittees" is a fine joke for the morning. In those days Federal budgets tended to be published about half way through the fiscal year, but I believe Junior Bush achieved the astonishing trick of publishing a budget after the entire year was over. Even today, with Congressional staffs quadruple what they were back then, DARPA is so small that I doubt it gets more than a couple of staffers' mornings of serious consideration in a year. The addition of the D was entirely cosmetic, purely for the purpose of paying lip-service to the Mansfield Amendment. The name had nothing to do with the evolution of the agency itself. In 1962 it was just loose money contributed by whichever Pentagon office could be made to cough it up toward the end of the year. By ten years later, when then-Senator Mansfied was concerned about the possible corrupting influence of military money, it had a relatively fixed name, offices, and staff. The solidification has continued, as you detail. FWIW, at the time when "the Net" had seven nodes two of them were in the UK, the Defence Establishment, in London, and the fine artificial intelligence group up in Edinborough. Both ARPAnet and DARPAnet were rare. On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 09:00, Steve Crocker wrote: > Adding to Vint's comments: > > I was at (D)ARPA from mid 1971 to mid 1974. Bob Kahn arrived in late > 1972. Vint came a few years after I left. > > The Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) was created in 1958 in > response to the launch of Sputnik. It was placed within the Defense > Department's Office of the Secretary of Defense (OSD). I believe OSD was > about 2,000 people. ARPA was approximately 150 people. It was > purposefully structured as an agile operation, authorized to define its own > projects and get them moving quickly. Its authority and operation were > overseen by both DoD management and the relevant Congressional committees > and subcommittees. "Slush fund" is a pejorative term that mischaracterizes > the organization. > > In 1972, following a decision to reduce the size of OSD, ARPA was moved > out of OSD and became a Defense agency. This put it in the same status as > the other Defense agencies, e.g., Defense Mapping Agency (DMA), Defense > Intelligence Agency (DIA), Defense Nuclear Agency (DNA), et al. In the > process, "ARPA" acquired the "D" and became DARPA. There was no > appreciable change in the mission, structure or operation of the agency. > On paper, the director of DARPA now reported directly to the Secretary of > Defense instead of the Defense Director for Research and Engineering > (DDR&E). In practice, the reporting lines remained the same. I don't > believe the transition had anything to do with the Mansfield amendment. > (D)ARPA was unabashedly doing work on a wide range of military technologies > both before and after the transition. Each internal funding memo included > a section describing the relevance of the effort being funded to the > overall DoD mission. I wrote my share of these, as did every program > manager. See the next paragraphs for a key point related to this. > > Internally, (D)ARPA is divided into a handful of Offices. Each Office > focuses on specific technologies. Offices are created, folded down, and > renamed at various times. In the beginning, ARPA focused on the space > program. In 1962, the Information Processing Techniques Office (IPTO) was > formed to focus on advanced computer science technology. JCR Licklider was > the first director. The Office funded research across a broad spectrum of > computer science topics ranging from time-sharing systems, graphics, > multiprocessor architectures, and artificial intelligence. Many of these > ideas had already been articulated and pursued in a few labs around the > country. IPTO was able to put considerably more money into these areas. > > The Offices were how the agency was structured from a personnel point of > view. From a budget point of view, the agency was structured in terms of > "programs." Each program had a budget and an objective. These were > documented and reported to DoD management and Congress each year. > > Most of the Offices had programs that were intended to yield results > within a few years. However, IPTO, the Materials Science Office, and the > Behavioral Sciences Office funded research with a *much* longer time > horizon. These were considered "basic research" offices, in contrast to > the other "development" Offices. The aggregate funding for basic research > was just a small fraction of the overall (D)ARPA budget, which meant that > most of (D)ARPA's funding was producing visible results fairly regularly. > The budgets and progress of the basic research Offices were still reviewed > annually, but the expectations were adjusted. > > The terms "basic research" and "development" correspond to the budget > designations "6.1" and "6.2." Line 6 in McNamara's famous reorganization > of the Defense budget was Research, Development, Test and Engineering > (RDT&E), with designations of 6.1 through 6.4. The funding levels were > significantly different, i.e. 6.1 << 6.2 << 6.3 << 6.4. (D)ARPA's funding > was limited to just 6.1 and 6.2 programs. > > In terms of its budget, IPTO evolved and became a hybrid Office with two > programs, one with 6.1 funding and one with 6.2 funding. The artificial > intelligence work was part of the 6.1 budget. The big system developments, > e.g., Illiac IV and Multics, were part of the 6.2 budget. > > As noted, the idea of a network had been written about and was definitely > part of the vision. There were a handful of small efforts to connect two > or three computers. The Arpanet was conceived and initiated in 1965-66. > After a couple of years of planning, the Request for Quotation for the IMPs > was released in 1968. Bolt, Beranek and Newman (BBN) in Cambridge, MA was > selected, and work began in 1969. The first IMP was delivered to UCLA at > the beginning of September that year. > > When the Arpanet was up and running, IPTO began to look at packet radio > and packet satellite networking. With strong support from the director of > the agency, Steve Lukasik, a third budget line item was created, also > within the overall 6.2 budget, that focused on communications. > > ============================ > > I believe the use of the exclamation point (!), informally called "bang," > was part of the UUNET routing scheme, not the Arpanet routing or email > addressing. > > Steve > > > On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 7:59 AM vinton cerf via InternetPolicy < > internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> 1. Arpanet was never called "Darpanet" >> 2. I don't think we ever "numbered" users since getting on the Arpanet >> was mostly by having an account on a time-sharing computer at a university >> (or research lab) that had an ARPA contract. >> 3. "bangs" were at email level, not Arpanet (or Internet) level of >> routing. The "bang" email addresses aided routing through application level >> gateways. >> 4. Bob Kahn, Dave Walden, Frank Heart and many others at BBN did the >> Arpanet IMP design. The Arpanet Host-Host NCP effort was led by Steve >> Crocker (Jon Postel and I and others helped) and stabilized enough to >> support email in 1971 and a public demonstration in October 1972. The >> Internet work started the next year in 1973. Since Internet was conceived >> as a network of networks, you needed more than one network to make an >> Internet. There were three to begin with: Arpanet, Packet Radio Net and >> Packet Satellite Net, all funded by ARPA. >> >> On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 4:50 AM David Lloyd-Jones via InternetPolicy < >> internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >>> Willi, >>> >>> You have shown us that you are full of good sentiments. Quite a lot of >>> them. Very good ones. I assume that you know something about the start and >>> development of the Internet but no such knowledge has found its way into >>> your long post. >>> . >>> First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or so, the 'Net was a >>> solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1945. It was made possible >>> by the invention of packet-switching in the mid-1960 to 70s. Johnny Foster, >>> JFK's science advisor in 1961, was the first person I know of to have done >>> solid financing of the effort. Bush was working on wide-scale computer >>> networking, along with many other things, when I met him in his >>> utterly false "retirement" in Lexington, Mass. in 1976. This was well >>> before your Reagan Administration. >>> >>> The original present "internet" was ARPAnet (on which I was user #300 >>> in 1971). This was financed before it really existed by ARPA when that >>> "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed around at random in the >>> Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added that "D," for defence, >>> to pretend compliance with the Mansfield Amendment. I worked on this on >>> Congressional staff in 1969-71 and at MIT in '72. The D was tacked on in >>> December '71 or January '72, I forget, but had been in the works ever since >>> Mansfied, as Senator, had tried to prevent military money from corrupting >>> civilian research. Unfortunately, civilian researchers cried piteously that >>> they wanted to be corrupted. By then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan.... >>> >>> When the scalability of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem >>> limited, -- all those !!! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the >>> development of the present TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When >>> Cerf later went to work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR >>> department tub-thumped that he was "the" founder of "the" Internet. Many >>> people seem to have believed this inanity. More recently this has been >>> toned down to "a" founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switching, the >>> key invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom Cerf >>> studied as a university student. Their much later contribution to TCP/IP >>> has certainly been useful. >>> >>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi uebelherr via InternetPolicy < >>> internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet >>>> Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022 >>>> >>>> https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-calls-to-undermine-the-internet/ >>>> >>>> Dear friends, >>>> >>>> Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the Internet is >>>> for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea. >>>> >>>> But the reality is different. The technical players acting today are >>>> not >>>> interested in a free global communication of people, but in a >>>> commercialization and capitalization of their needs for communication. >>>> >>>> This result did not come about by chance, but was already the essential >>>> guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the USA under >>>> Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection of local >>>> Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, became a >>>> privately and state organized system of interconnected star-systems, >>>> "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". >>>> >>>> This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility to >>>> organize >>>> access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we see today >>>> that the system of a free global communication has turned into a field >>>> of censorship and private control mania, organized by countries calling >>>> themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized bullshit, >>>> because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any directions >>>> can lead to the same goal. >>>> >>>> The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human >>>> communication "without borders" are those who call themselves >>>> representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every diversity >>>> with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil Rhodes is >>>> put >>>> back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of communication >>>> that >>>> is now elevated to the absolute. >>>> >>>> The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that does not >>>> adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, as we saw >>>> with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of the life >>>> of >>>> an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power madness >>>> it has developed into, where only private profit interests and state >>>> delusions of control apply. >>>> >>>> The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the form of an >>>> internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free access to >>>> all people of our planet, independent of their social situation and >>>> geographical position. >>>> >>>> That and only that is a "net of nets". >>>> >>>> with kind regards, willi >>>> Asuncion, Paraguay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> in german ----------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Liebe freunde, >>>> >>>> Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf hingewiesen, "the >>>> Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee. >>>> >>>> Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden >>>> technischen >>>> Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der Menschen >>>> interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und Kapitalisierung >>>> ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation. >>>> >>>> Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war bereits zu >>>> Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA unter >>>> Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the Inter-connection of >>>> local >>>> Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, wurde zu >>>> einem >>>> privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen >>>> Sternsystemen, >>>> "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". >>>> >>>> Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, nach >>>> beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu organisieren. Und >>>> wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen >>>> Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn >>>> entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich "der >>>> Westen" >>>> nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten Schwachsinn, >>>> weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit beliebige >>>> Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen. >>>> >>>> Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien >>>> menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als >>>> Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede >>>> Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form des >>>> Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch gestellt. Die >>>> Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die nun zum >>>> absoluten Mass erhoben wird. >>>> >>>> Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das sich nicht >>>> an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, wie wir es >>>> bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der Lebensphase eines >>>> Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster kleingeistigem >>>> Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private Profitinteressen >>>> und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten. >>>> >>>> Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation in Form >>>> eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen Menschen >>>> unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig von ihrer >>>> sozialen Lage und geografischen Position. >>>> >>>> Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze". >>>> >>>> mit lieben gruessen, willi >>>> Asuncion, Paraguay >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To manage your Internet Society subscriptions >>>> or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at >>>> https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login >>>> and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. >>>> - >>>> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: >>>> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To manage your Internet Society subscriptions >>> or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at >>> https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login >>> and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. >>> - >>> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: >>> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> To manage your Internet Society subscriptions >> or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at >> https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login >> and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. >> - >> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: >> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ >> > --000000000000180f7805da41c6ee Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Steve,

A fine piece, though you take the Official T= ruths a little too seriously.

"Structured as an agile operation," may = be said to be a sweet and=C2=A0nice way of saying "slush fund."= =C2=A0 "Overseen by both DoD management and the relevant Congressional commi= ttees and subcommittees" is a fine joke for the morning. In those days= Federal budgets tended to be published about half way through the fiscal y= ear, but I believe Junior Bush achieved the astonishing trick of publishing= a budget after the entire year was over. Even today, with Congressional st= affs quadruple=C2=A0what they were back then, DARPA is so small that I doub= t it gets more than a couple of staffers' mornings of serious considera= tion in a year.

The addition of the D was entirely cosmetic, purely = for the purpose of paying lip-service to the Mansfield Amendment. The name = had nothing to do with the evolution of the agency itself. In 1962 it was j= ust loose money contributed by whichever Pentagon office=C2=A0could be made= to cough it up toward the end of the year. By ten years later, when then-S= enator Mansfied was concerned about the possible corrupting influence of mi= litary money, it had a relatively fixed name, offices, and staff. The solid= ification has continued, as you detail.

FWIW, at the time when "= ;the Net" had seven nodes two of them were in the UK, the Defence Esta= blishment, in London, and the fine artificial intelligence group=C2=A0up in= Edinborough. Both ARPAnet and DARPAnet were rare.

=C2=A0

<= /div>

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 09:00, Steve Crocker <steve@shinkuro.com> wrote:
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size= :small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Adding to Vint's comments:

I was at (D)ARPA from mid 1= 971 to mid 1974.=C2=A0 Bob Kahn arrived in late 1972.=C2=A0 Vint came a few= years after I left.

The Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) was created in 19= 58 in response to the launch of Sputnik.=C2=A0 It was placed within the Def= ense Department's Office of the Secretary of Defense (OSD).=C2=A0 I bel= ieve OSD was about 2,000 people.=C2=A0 ARPA was approximately 150 people.= =C2=A0 It was purposefully structured as an agile operation, authorized to = define its own projects and get them moving quickly.=C2=A0 Its authority an= d operation were overseen by both DoD management and the relevant Congressi= onal committees and subcommittees.=C2=A0 "Slush fund" is a pejora= tive=C2=A0term that mischaracterizes the organization.

In 1972, following a decisio= n to reduce the size of OSD, ARPA was moved out of OSD and became a Defense= agency.=C2=A0 This put it in the same status as the other Defense agencies= , e.g., Defense Mapping Agency (DMA), Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), De= fense Nuclear Agency (DNA), et al.=C2=A0 In the process, "ARPA" a= cquired the "D" and became DARPA.=C2=A0 There was no appreciable = change in the mission, structure or operation of the agency.=C2=A0 On paper= , the director of DARPA now reported directly to the Secretary of Defense i= nstead of the Defense Director for Research and Engineering (DDR&E).=C2= =A0 In practice, the reporting lines remained the same.=C2=A0 I don't b= elieve the transition had anything to do with the Mansfield amendment.=C2= =A0 (D)ARPA was unabashedly doing work on a wide range of military technolo= gies both before and after the transition.=C2=A0 Each internal funding=C2= =A0 memo included a section describing the relevance of the effort being fu= nded to the overall DoD mission.=C2=A0 I wrote my share of these, as did ev= ery program manager.=C2=A0 See the next paragraphs for a key point related = to this.

Internally, (D)ARPA is divided into a handful of Offices.=C2=A0 Each Offic= e focuses on specific technologies.=C2=A0 Offices are created, folded down,= and renamed at various times.=C2=A0 In the beginning, ARPA focused on the = space program.=C2=A0 In 1962, the Information Processing Techniques Office = (IPTO) was formed to focus on advanced computer science technology.=C2=A0 J= CR Licklider was the first director.=C2=A0 The Office funded research acros= s a broad spectrum of computer science topics ranging from time-sharing sys= tems, graphics, multiprocessor architectures, and artificial intelligence.= =C2=A0 Many of these ideas had already been articulated and pursued in a fe= w labs around the country.=C2=A0 IPTO was able to put considerably=C2=A0mor= e money into these areas.

The Offices were how the agency was structured from a per= sonnel point of view.=C2=A0 From a budget point of view, the agency was str= uctured in terms of "programs."=C2=A0 Each program had a budget a= nd an objective.=C2=A0 These were documented and reported to DoD management= and Congress each year.

Most of the Offices had programs that were intended to yie= ld results within a few years.=C2=A0 However, IPTO, the Materials Science O= ffice, and the Behavioral Sciences Office funded research with a *much* lon= ger time horizon.=C2=A0 These were considered "basic research" of= fices, in contrast to the other "development" Offices.=C2=A0 The = aggregate funding for basic research was just a small fraction of the overa= ll (D)ARPA budget, which meant that most of (D)ARPA's funding was produ= cing visible results fairly regularly.=C2=A0 The budgets and progress of th= e basic research Offices were still reviewed annually, but the expectations= were adjusted.

The terms "basic research" and "development" co= rrespond to the budget designations "6.1" and "6.2."=C2= =A0 Line 6 in McNamara's famous reorganization of the Defense budget wa= s Research, Development, Test and Engineering (RDT&E), with designation= s of 6.1 through 6.4.=C2=A0 The funding levels were significantly different= , i.e. 6.1 << 6.2 << 6.3 << 6.4.=C2=A0 (D)ARPA's fund= ing was limited to just 6.1 and 6.2 programs.

In terms of its budget, IPTO evolved = and became a hybrid Office with two programs, one with 6.1 funding and one = with 6.2 funding.=C2=A0 The artificial intelligence work was part of the 6.= 1 budget.=C2=A0 The big system developments, e.g., Illiac=C2=A0IV and Multi= cs, were part of the 6.2 budget.

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size= :small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">As noted, the idea of a network had been written a= bout and was definitely part of the vision.=C2=A0 There were a handful of s= mall efforts to connect two or three computers.=C2=A0 The Arpanet was conce= ived and initiated in 1965-66.=C2=A0 After a couple of years of planning, t= he Request for Quotation for the IMPs was released in 1968.=C2=A0 Bolt, Ber= anek and Newman (BBN) in Cambridge, MA was selected, and work began in 1969= .=C2=A0 The first IMP was delivered to UCLA at the beginning of September t= hat year.

When the Arpanet was up and running, IPTO began to look at packet radio a= nd packet satellite networking.=C2=A0 With strong support from the director= of the agency, Steve Lukasik, a third budget line item was created, also w= ithin the overall 6.2 budget, that focused on communications.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

I believe the use o= f the exclamation point=C2=A0(!), informally called "bang," was p= art of the UUNET routing scheme, not the Arpanet routing or email addressin= g.

Steve=

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 7:59 AM v= inton cerf via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote:
<= div style=3D"font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">1. Arpanet was never called = "Darpanet"
2= . I don't think we ever "numbered" users since getting on the= Arpanet was mostly by having an account on a time-sharing computer at a un= iversity (or research lab) that had an ARPA contract.=C2=A0
3. "bangs" were at email le= vel, not Arpanet (or Internet) level of routing. The "bang" email= addresses aided routing through application level gateways.=C2=A0
4. Bob Kahn, Dave Walden, Fran= k Heart and many others at BBN did the Arpanet IMP design. The Arpanet Host= -Host NCP effort was led by Steve Crocker (Jon Postel and I and others help= ed) and stabilized enough to support email=C2=A0in 1971 and a public demons= tration in October 1972. The Internet work started the next year in 1973. S= ince Internet was conceived as a network of networks, you needed more than = one network to make an Internet. There were three to begin with: Arpanet, P= acket Radio Net and Packet Satellite Net, all funded by ARPA.
On Tue, = Mar 15, 2022 at 4:50 AM David Lloyd-Jones via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy@el= ists.isoc.org> wrote:
Willi,

You have=C2=A0shown us that you= are full of good sentiments. Quite a lot of them. Very good ones. I=C2=A0a= ssume that you know something about the=C2=A0start and development of the I= nternet but no such knowledge has found its way into your long post.
.First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or so, the=C2=A0'Net= was a solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1945. It was made pos= sible by the invention of packet-switching in the mid-1960 to 70s. Johnny F= oster, JFK's science advisor in 1961, was the first person I know of to= have done solid financing of the effort.=C2=A0 Bush was working on wide-sc= ale computer networking, along with many other things, when I met him in hi= s utterly=C2=A0false "retirement" in Lexington, Mass. in 1976.=C2= =A0This was well before your Reagan Administration.

The original present "internet" was ARPAnet=C2=A0 (on whi= ch I was user #300 in 1971). This was financed before it really existed by = ARPA when that "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed arou= nd at random in the Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added tha= t "D," for defence, to pretend compliance with the Mansfield Amen= dment. I worked on this on Congressional staff in 1969-71 and at MIT in = 9;72. The D was tacked on in December '71 or January '72, I forget,= but had been in the works ever since Mansfied, as Senator, had tried to pr= event military money from corrupting civilian research. Unfortunately, civi= lian researchers=C2=A0cried piteously that they wanted to be corrupted. By = then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan....=C2=A0

When the scalabilit= y of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem limited, -- all those !!= ! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the development of the p= resent TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When Cerf later went to = work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR department tub-thump= ed that he was "the"=C2=A0founder of "the" Internet. Ma= ny people seem to have believed this inanity. More recently this has been t= oned down to "a" founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switchin= g, the key invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom C= erf studied as a university student. Their=C2=A0much later contribution to = TCP/IP has certainly been useful.=C2=A0

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi = uebelherr via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote:
=

Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet
Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022
https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-c= alls-to-undermine-the-internet/

Dear friends,

Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the Internet is =
for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea.

But the reality is different. The technical players acting today are not interested in a free global communication of people, but in a
commercialization and capitalization of their needs for communication.

This result did not come about by chance, but was already the essential guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the USA under
Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection of local =
Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, became a privately and state organized system of interconnected star-systems,
"the inter-connection of private Star-Systems".

This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility to organize access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we see today
that the system of a free global communication has turned into a field
of censorship and private control mania, organized by countries calling themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized bul= lshit,
because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any directions
can lead to the same goal.

The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human
communication "without borders" are those who call themselves representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every dive= rsity
with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil Rhodes is pu= t
back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of communication that is now elevated to the absolute.

The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that does not
adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, as we saw with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of the life of an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power madness
it has developed into, where only private profit interests and state
delusions of control apply.

The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the form of an
internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free access to all people of our planet, independent of their social situation and
geographical position.

That and only that is a "net of nets".

with kind regards, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

in german -----------------------------------------------------------

Liebe freunde,

Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf hingewiesen, "the <= br> Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee.

Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden technischen Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der Menschen
interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und Kapitalisierung
ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation.

Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war bereits zu
Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA unter
Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the Inter-connection of loc= al
Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, wurde zu ein= em
privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen Sternsystemen, "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems".

Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, nach
beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu organisieren. Und
wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen
Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn
entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich "der Weste= n"
nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten Schwachsinn,
weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit beliebige
Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen.

Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien
menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als=
Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede =
Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form des
Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch gestellt. Die <= br> Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die nun zum
absoluten Mass erhoben wird.

Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das sich nicht an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, wie wir es
bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der Lebensphase eines
Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster kleingeistigem
Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private Profitinteressen und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten.

Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation in Form
eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen Menschen
unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig von ihrer
sozialen Lage und geografischen Position.

Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze".

mit lieben gruessen, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

_______________________________________________
To manage your Internet Society subscriptions
or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Log= in
and go to the Preferences tab within your profile.
-
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/=

_______________________________________________
To manage your Internet Society subscriptions
or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Log= in
and go to the Preferences tab within your profile.
-
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/=

_______________________________________________
To manage your Internet Society subscriptions
or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Log= in
and go to the Preferences tab within your profile.
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--000000000000180f7805da41c6ee-- From nobody Tue Mar 15 06:42:53 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D365E3A13FF for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:42:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=shinkuro-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VM9Z0w-pYkz2 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ej1-x62c.google.com (mail-ej1-x62c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1354F3A1BF4 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id pv16so2027295ejb.0 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:42:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=shinkuro-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hT5m+p1m/s0nic4NCo5rbJiKT/u04uMGw1z9zG2T1rk=; b=aC3IOKUDXCl6ikyDxz7e4CRmKMjA2yi44epm0ejVcWN44tnRWqo/um9nS/FCXSd/wG +5e+mX+3fh5LSznAyVypIJ3QT/NAdR4jbNr49fKq0mSJx+T/SXfTyPfHwIoQmgZrcQ2j HEJp8uE+plKIDtAgr1XK/zg3xfDMeJnkchsn9++EYNrwMzSD6y1OZFdSFNzv9iCWZMTB sQFr6K1SqLWlMLce9+qUTK3x+qqqbksR3AVmwTfdM2YjFEyetAQV5pcFwZZgfKfJfbP5 yuhf5jWavI1NopoRP1YJmsbjhHMmjuupW3hxDo81o7DFDWFk9XPeu/8RfOpVh0DGgxao R5rQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hT5m+p1m/s0nic4NCo5rbJiKT/u04uMGw1z9zG2T1rk=; b=52VGQF0QfYefyuRh6YtBX9TZ7nUxsRU8Axz573xA2rFDGPYXG+u89ZaiTw+3FAnlqd G9FhDjNH7cQ1nwCYDewLma8pCa3A6RxWaOfDh6XopiGC84faDh3zajliIgX3kniiGzmS GdGfGSApZiPOcZUnVLFHZSL7krDt8kni7LPJDcmuLpLwlHcPxqqd8tVKgwv0Ax/ez2j2 AuFVuvvEF5LppySQsocySULOwLIhW6aw/RbMQsFWRxVZb4uYfe7wYXTidT2mKx8b5ln2 nrp/w74wcOzbcRA1vxL4t++zERxNn0E2phAI6B9X1k503uCdciLK5OoxwJ4nnm7F1kQ4 KiDw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532MOyzkNDo+/FQnvLcIT+DyfTQL+yPFqWhZ4jK/S8twCVCKoZAs qDYagQafBHjHLjKCyYokmYhk4wFcNgXUw3jQJzdt7Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzHCVXF0ILnwaMY+5pn/Buz2/KFyB9cmLBpH/zgvQR6b4YfoST7fiBOrt7ZeTcoajKaORsDtRloEPNi/QD72Ac= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:d89:b0:6df:67c1:c182 with SMTP id go9-20020a1709070d8900b006df67c1c182mr1333716ejc.10.1647351737153; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:42:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Steve Crocker Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 09:42:05 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet To: David Lloyd-Jones Cc: vinton cerf , IRTF discuss , IETF discussion , ISOC Lia Kiessling , IGF governance , ISOC Internet Policy , Steve Crocker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001d1b3d05da41f7d7" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 13:42:50 -0000 --0000000000001d1b3d05da41f7d7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" David, Thanks for the immediate response. I don't believe the Mansfield amendment was specific to DARPA. DARPA was and always has been a very small part of the overall Department of Defense budget. Re "the Net," I'm not sure which network you're referring to. The first several nodes of the Arpanet were all in the U.S. Many, many lists and maps have been published documenting the growth of the Arpanet. Given your reference to bangs, perhaps the net you're referring to was the UUNET, which used uucp to copy messages from one Unix machine to the next. I'm less familiar with the details of its growth. Steve On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 9:28 AM David Lloyd-Jones < david.lloydjones@gmail.com> wrote: > Steve, > > A fine piece, though you take the Official Truths a little too seriously. > > "Structured as an agile operation," may be said to be a sweet and nice > way of saying "slush fund." "Overseen by both DoD management and the > relevant Congressional committees and subcommittees" is a fine joke for the > morning. In those days Federal budgets tended to be published about half > way through the fiscal year, but I believe Junior Bush achieved the > astonishing trick of publishing a budget after the entire year was over. > Even today, with Congressional staffs quadruple what they were back then, > DARPA is so small that I doubt it gets more than a couple of staffers' > mornings of serious consideration in a year. > > The addition of the D was entirely cosmetic, purely for the purpose of > paying lip-service to the Mansfield Amendment. The name had nothing to do > with the evolution of the agency itself. In 1962 it was just loose money > contributed by whichever Pentagon office could be made to cough it up > toward the end of the year. By ten years later, when then-Senator Mansfied > was concerned about the possible corrupting influence of military money, it > had a relatively fixed name, offices, and staff. The solidification has > continued, as you detail. > > FWIW, at the time when "the Net" had seven nodes two of them were in the > UK, the Defence Establishment, in London, and the fine artificial > intelligence group up in Edinborough. Both ARPAnet and DARPAnet were rare. > > > > > > On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 09:00, Steve Crocker wrote: > >> Adding to Vint's comments: >> >> I was at (D)ARPA from mid 1971 to mid 1974. Bob Kahn arrived in late >> 1972. Vint came a few years after I left. >> >> The Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) was created in 1958 in >> response to the launch of Sputnik. It was placed within the Defense >> Department's Office of the Secretary of Defense (OSD). I believe OSD was >> about 2,000 people. ARPA was approximately 150 people. It was >> purposefully structured as an agile operation, authorized to define its own >> projects and get them moving quickly. Its authority and operation were >> overseen by both DoD management and the relevant Congressional committees >> and subcommittees. "Slush fund" is a pejorative term that mischaracterizes >> the organization. >> >> In 1972, following a decision to reduce the size of OSD, ARPA was moved >> out of OSD and became a Defense agency. This put it in the same status as >> the other Defense agencies, e.g., Defense Mapping Agency (DMA), Defense >> Intelligence Agency (DIA), Defense Nuclear Agency (DNA), et al. In the >> process, "ARPA" acquired the "D" and became DARPA. There was no >> appreciable change in the mission, structure or operation of the agency. >> On paper, the director of DARPA now reported directly to the Secretary of >> Defense instead of the Defense Director for Research and Engineering >> (DDR&E). In practice, the reporting lines remained the same. I don't >> believe the transition had anything to do with the Mansfield amendment. >> (D)ARPA was unabashedly doing work on a wide range of military technologies >> both before and after the transition. Each internal funding memo included >> a section describing the relevance of the effort being funded to the >> overall DoD mission. I wrote my share of these, as did every program >> manager. See the next paragraphs for a key point related to this. >> >> Internally, (D)ARPA is divided into a handful of Offices. Each Office >> focuses on specific technologies. Offices are created, folded down, and >> renamed at various times. In the beginning, ARPA focused on the space >> program. In 1962, the Information Processing Techniques Office (IPTO) was >> formed to focus on advanced computer science technology. JCR Licklider was >> the first director. The Office funded research across a broad spectrum of >> computer science topics ranging from time-sharing systems, graphics, >> multiprocessor architectures, and artificial intelligence. Many of these >> ideas had already been articulated and pursued in a few labs around the >> country. IPTO was able to put considerably more money into these areas. >> >> The Offices were how the agency was structured from a personnel point of >> view. From a budget point of view, the agency was structured in terms of >> "programs." Each program had a budget and an objective. These were >> documented and reported to DoD management and Congress each year. >> >> Most of the Offices had programs that were intended to yield results >> within a few years. However, IPTO, the Materials Science Office, and the >> Behavioral Sciences Office funded research with a *much* longer time >> horizon. These were considered "basic research" offices, in contrast to >> the other "development" Offices. The aggregate funding for basic research >> was just a small fraction of the overall (D)ARPA budget, which meant that >> most of (D)ARPA's funding was producing visible results fairly regularly. >> The budgets and progress of the basic research Offices were still reviewed >> annually, but the expectations were adjusted. >> >> The terms "basic research" and "development" correspond to the budget >> designations "6.1" and "6.2." Line 6 in McNamara's famous reorganization >> of the Defense budget was Research, Development, Test and Engineering >> (RDT&E), with designations of 6.1 through 6.4. The funding levels were >> significantly different, i.e. 6.1 << 6.2 << 6.3 << 6.4. (D)ARPA's funding >> was limited to just 6.1 and 6.2 programs. >> >> In terms of its budget, IPTO evolved and became a hybrid Office with two >> programs, one with 6.1 funding and one with 6.2 funding. The artificial >> intelligence work was part of the 6.1 budget. The big system developments, >> e.g., Illiac IV and Multics, were part of the 6.2 budget. >> >> As noted, the idea of a network had been written about and was definitely >> part of the vision. There were a handful of small efforts to connect two >> or three computers. The Arpanet was conceived and initiated in 1965-66. >> After a couple of years of planning, the Request for Quotation for the IMPs >> was released in 1968. Bolt, Beranek and Newman (BBN) in Cambridge, MA was >> selected, and work began in 1969. The first IMP was delivered to UCLA at >> the beginning of September that year. >> >> When the Arpanet was up and running, IPTO began to look at packet radio >> and packet satellite networking. With strong support from the director of >> the agency, Steve Lukasik, a third budget line item was created, also >> within the overall 6.2 budget, that focused on communications. >> >> ============================ >> >> I believe the use of the exclamation point (!), informally called "bang," >> was part of the UUNET routing scheme, not the Arpanet routing or email >> addressing. >> >> Steve >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 7:59 AM vinton cerf via InternetPolicy < >> internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >>> 1. Arpanet was never called "Darpanet" >>> 2. I don't think we ever "numbered" users since getting on the Arpanet >>> was mostly by having an account on a time-sharing computer at a university >>> (or research lab) that had an ARPA contract. >>> 3. "bangs" were at email level, not Arpanet (or Internet) level of >>> routing. The "bang" email addresses aided routing through application level >>> gateways. >>> 4. Bob Kahn, Dave Walden, Frank Heart and many others at BBN did the >>> Arpanet IMP design. The Arpanet Host-Host NCP effort was led by Steve >>> Crocker (Jon Postel and I and others helped) and stabilized enough to >>> support email in 1971 and a public demonstration in October 1972. The >>> Internet work started the next year in 1973. Since Internet was conceived >>> as a network of networks, you needed more than one network to make an >>> Internet. There were three to begin with: Arpanet, Packet Radio Net and >>> Packet Satellite Net, all funded by ARPA. >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 4:50 AM David Lloyd-Jones via InternetPolicy < >>> internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Willi, >>>> >>>> You have shown us that you are full of good sentiments. Quite a lot of >>>> them. Very good ones. I assume that you know something about the start and >>>> development of the Internet but no such knowledge has found its way into >>>> your long post. >>>> . >>>> First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or so, the 'Net was a >>>> solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1945. It was made possible >>>> by the invention of packet-switching in the mid-1960 to 70s. Johnny Foster, >>>> JFK's science advisor in 1961, was the first person I know of to have done >>>> solid financing of the effort. Bush was working on wide-scale computer >>>> networking, along with many other things, when I met him in his >>>> utterly false "retirement" in Lexington, Mass. in 1976. This was well >>>> before your Reagan Administration. >>>> >>>> The original present "internet" was ARPAnet (on which I was user #300 >>>> in 1971). This was financed before it really existed by ARPA when that >>>> "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed around at random in the >>>> Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added that "D," for defence, >>>> to pretend compliance with the Mansfield Amendment. I worked on this on >>>> Congressional staff in 1969-71 and at MIT in '72. The D was tacked on in >>>> December '71 or January '72, I forget, but had been in the works ever since >>>> Mansfied, as Senator, had tried to prevent military money from corrupting >>>> civilian research. Unfortunately, civilian researchers cried piteously that >>>> they wanted to be corrupted. By then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan.... >>>> >>>> When the scalability of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem >>>> limited, -- all those !!! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the >>>> development of the present TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When >>>> Cerf later went to work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR >>>> department tub-thumped that he was "the" founder of "the" Internet. Many >>>> people seem to have believed this inanity. More recently this has been >>>> toned down to "a" founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switching, the >>>> key invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom Cerf >>>> studied as a university student. Their much later contribution to TCP/IP >>>> has certainly been useful. >>>> >>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi uebelherr via InternetPolicy < >>>> internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet >>>>> Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022 >>>>> >>>>> https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-calls-to-undermine-the-internet/ >>>>> >>>>> Dear friends, >>>>> >>>>> Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the Internet is >>>>> for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea. >>>>> >>>>> But the reality is different. The technical players acting today are >>>>> not >>>>> interested in a free global communication of people, but in a >>>>> commercialization and capitalization of their needs for communication. >>>>> >>>>> This result did not come about by chance, but was already the >>>>> essential >>>>> guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the USA under >>>>> Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection of local >>>>> Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, became a >>>>> privately and state organized system of interconnected star-systems, >>>>> "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". >>>>> >>>>> This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility to >>>>> organize >>>>> access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we see today >>>>> that the system of a free global communication has turned into a field >>>>> of censorship and private control mania, organized by countries >>>>> calling >>>>> themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized >>>>> bullshit, >>>>> because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any directions >>>>> can lead to the same goal. >>>>> >>>>> The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human >>>>> communication "without borders" are those who call themselves >>>>> representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every diversity >>>>> with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil Rhodes is >>>>> put >>>>> back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of communication >>>>> that >>>>> is now elevated to the absolute. >>>>> >>>>> The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that does not >>>>> adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, as we >>>>> saw >>>>> with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of the life >>>>> of >>>>> an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power madness >>>>> it has developed into, where only private profit interests and state >>>>> delusions of control apply. >>>>> >>>>> The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the form of an >>>>> internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free access >>>>> to >>>>> all people of our planet, independent of their social situation and >>>>> geographical position. >>>>> >>>>> That and only that is a "net of nets". >>>>> >>>>> with kind regards, willi >>>>> Asuncion, Paraguay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> in german ----------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> Liebe freunde, >>>>> >>>>> Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf hingewiesen, "the >>>>> Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee. >>>>> >>>>> Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden >>>>> technischen >>>>> Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der Menschen >>>>> interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und Kapitalisierung >>>>> ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation. >>>>> >>>>> Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war bereits zu >>>>> Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA unter >>>>> Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the Inter-connection of >>>>> local >>>>> Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, wurde zu >>>>> einem >>>>> privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen >>>>> Sternsystemen, >>>>> "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". >>>>> >>>>> Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, nach >>>>> beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu organisieren. Und >>>>> wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen >>>>> Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn >>>>> entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich "der >>>>> Westen" >>>>> nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten Schwachsinn, >>>>> weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit beliebige >>>>> Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen. >>>>> >>>>> Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien >>>>> menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als >>>>> Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede >>>>> Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form des >>>>> Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch gestellt. Die >>>>> Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die nun zum >>>>> absoluten Mass erhoben wird. >>>>> >>>>> Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das sich >>>>> nicht >>>>> an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, wie wir es >>>>> bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der Lebensphase eines >>>>> Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster kleingeistigem >>>>> Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private >>>>> Profitinteressen >>>>> und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten. >>>>> >>>>> Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation in Form >>>>> eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen Menschen >>>>> unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig von ihrer >>>>> sozialen Lage und geografischen Position. >>>>> >>>>> Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze". >>>>> >>>>> mit lieben gruessen, willi >>>>> Asuncion, Paraguay >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> To manage your Internet Society subscriptions >>>>> or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at >>>>> https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login >>>>> and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. >>>>> - >>>>> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: >>>>> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To manage your Internet Society subscriptions >>>> or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at >>>> https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login >>>> and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. >>>> - >>>> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: >>>> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To manage your Internet Society subscriptions >>> or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at >>> https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login >>> and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. >>> - >>> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: >>> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ >>> >> --0000000000001d1b3d05da41f7d7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
David,
=
Thanks for the immediate response.

I don't believe= =C2=A0the Mansfield amendment was specific to DARPA.=C2=A0 DARPA was and al= ways has been a very small part of the overall Department of Defense budget= .

Re "th= e Net," I'm not sure which network you're referring to.=C2=A0 = The first several=C2=A0nodes of the Arpanet were all in the U.S.=C2=A0 Many= , many lists and maps have been published documenting=C2=A0the growth of th= e=C2=A0Arpanet.=C2=A0 Given your reference to bangs, perhaps the net you= 9;re referring to was the UUNET, which=C2=A0used uucp to copy messages from= one Unix machine to the next.=C2=A0 I'm less familiar=C2=A0with the de= tails of its growth.

Steve

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at = 9:28 AM David Lloyd-Jones <david.lloydjones@gmail.com> wrote:
Steve,

A fine piece, tho= ugh you take the Official Truths a little too seriously.

"Structured as an = agile operation," may be said to be a sweet and=C2=A0nice way of sayin= g "slush fund."=C2=A0 "Overseen by both DoD management and the rel= evant Congressional committees and subcommittees" is a fine joke for t= he morning. In those days Federal budgets tended to be published about half= way through the fiscal year, but I believe Junior Bush achieved the astoni= shing trick of publishing a budget after the entire year was over. Even tod= ay, with Congressional staffs quadruple=C2=A0what they were back then, DARP= A is so small that I doubt it gets more than a couple of staffers' morn= ings of serious consideration in a year.

The addition of the D was e= ntirely cosmetic, purely for the purpose of paying lip-service to the Mansf= ield Amendment. The name had nothing to do with the evolution of the agency= itself. In 1962 it was just loose money contributed by whichever Pentagon = office=C2=A0could be made to cough it up toward the end of the year. By ten= years later, when then-Senator Mansfied was concerned about the possible c= orrupting influence of military money, it had a relatively fixed name, offi= ces, and staff. The solidification has continued, as you detail.

FWI= W, at the time when "the Net" had seven nodes two of them were in= the UK, the Defence Establishment, in London, and the fine artificial inte= lligence group=C2=A0up in Edinborough. Both ARPAnet and DARPAnet were rare.=

<= div>
=C2=A0=

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 09:00, Steve Crock= er <steve@shinku= ro.com> wrote:
Adding t= o Vint's comments:

I was at (D)ARPA from mid 1971 to mid 1974.=C2=A0 Bob Kahn = arrived in late 1972.=C2=A0 Vint came a few years after I left.

The Advanced Resear= ch Projects Agency (ARPA) was created in 1958 in response to the launch of = Sputnik.=C2=A0 It was placed within the Defense Department's Office of = the Secretary of Defense (OSD).=C2=A0 I believe OSD was about 2,000 people.= =C2=A0 ARPA was approximately 150 people.=C2=A0 It was purposefully structu= red as an agile operation, authorized to define its own projects and get th= em moving quickly.=C2=A0 Its authority and operation were overseen by both = DoD management and the relevant Congressional committees and subcommittees.= =C2=A0 "Slush fund" is a pejorative=C2=A0term that mischaracteriz= es the organization.

In 1972, following a decision to reduce the size of OSD, ARPA = was moved out of OSD and became a Defense agency.=C2=A0 This put it in the = same status as the other Defense agencies, e.g., Defense Mapping Agency (DM= A), Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), Defense Nuclear Agency (DNA), et al.= =C2=A0 In the process, "ARPA" acquired the "D" and beca= me DARPA.=C2=A0 There was no appreciable change in the mission, structure o= r operation of the agency.=C2=A0 On paper, the director of DARPA now report= ed directly to the Secretary of Defense instead of the Defense Director for= Research and Engineering (DDR&E).=C2=A0 In practice, the reporting lin= es remained the same.=C2=A0 I don't believe the transition had anything= to do with the Mansfield amendment.=C2=A0 (D)ARPA was unabashedly doing wo= rk on a wide range of military technologies both before and after the trans= ition.=C2=A0 Each internal funding=C2=A0 memo included a section describing= the relevance of the effort being funded to the overall DoD mission.=C2=A0= I wrote my share of these, as did every program manager.=C2=A0 See the nex= t paragraphs for a key point related to this.

Internally, (D)ARPA is divided into a= handful of Offices.=C2=A0 Each Office focuses on specific technologies.=C2= =A0 Offices are created, folded down, and renamed at various times.=C2=A0 I= n the beginning, ARPA focused on the space program.=C2=A0 In 1962, the Info= rmation Processing Techniques Office (IPTO) was formed to focus on advanced= computer science technology.=C2=A0 JCR Licklider was the first director.= =C2=A0 The Office funded research across a broad spectrum of computer scien= ce topics ranging from time-sharing systems, graphics, multiprocessor archi= tectures, and artificial intelligence.=C2=A0 Many of these ideas had alread= y been articulated and pursued in a few labs around the country.=C2=A0 IPTO= was able to put considerably=C2=A0more money into these areas.

The Offices were ho= w the agency was structured from a personnel point of view.=C2=A0 From a bu= dget point of view, the agency was structured in terms of "programs.&q= uot;=C2=A0 Each program had a budget and an objective.=C2=A0 These were doc= umented and reported to DoD management and Congress each year.

Most of the Offices = had programs that were intended to yield results within a few years.=C2=A0 = However, IPTO, the Materials Science Office, and the Behavioral Sciences Of= fice funded research with a *much* longer time horizon.=C2=A0 These were co= nsidered "basic research" offices, in contrast to the other "= ;development" Offices.=C2=A0 The aggregate funding for basic research = was just a small fraction of the overall (D)ARPA budget, which meant that m= ost of (D)ARPA's funding was producing visible results fairly regularly= .=C2=A0 The budgets and progress of the basic research Offices were still r= eviewed annually, but the expectations were adjusted.

The terms "basic researc= h" and "development" correspond to the budget designations &= quot;6.1" and "6.2."=C2=A0 Line 6 in McNamara's famous r= eorganization of the Defense budget was Research, Development, Test and Eng= ineering (RDT&E), with designations of 6.1 through 6.4.=C2=A0 The fundi= ng levels were significantly different, i.e. 6.1 << 6.2 << 6.3 = << 6.4.=C2=A0 (D)ARPA's funding was limited to just 6.1 and 6.2 p= rograms.

In terms of its budget, IPTO evolved and became a hybrid Office with two p= rograms, one with 6.1 funding and one with 6.2 funding.=C2=A0 The artificia= l intelligence work was part of the 6.1 budget.=C2=A0 The big system develo= pments, e.g., Illiac=C2=A0IV and Multics, were part of the 6.2 budget.

As noted, th= e idea of a network had been written about and was definitely part of the v= ision.=C2=A0 There were a handful of small efforts to connect two or three = computers.=C2=A0 The Arpanet was conceived and initiated in 1965-66.=C2=A0 = After a couple of years of planning, the Request for Quotation for the IMPs= was released in 1968.=C2=A0 Bolt, Beranek and Newman (BBN) in Cambridge, M= A was selected, and work began in 1969.=C2=A0 The first IMP was delivered t= o UCLA at the beginning of September that year.

When the Arpanet was up and running= , IPTO began to look at packet radio and packet satellite networking.=C2=A0= With strong support from the director of the agency, Steve Lukasik, a thir= d budget line item was created, also within the overall 6.2 budget, that fo= cused on communications.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

I believe the use of the exclamation point=C2=A0(!), in= formally called "bang," was part of the UUNET routing scheme, not= the Arpanet routing or email addressing.
Steve

=

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 7:59 AM vinton cerf via InternetPolicy <internetp= olicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote:
1. Arpanet was never called "Darpanet"
2. I don't think we ever "nu= mbered" users since getting on the Arpanet was mostly by having an acc= ount on a time-sharing computer at a university (or research lab) that had = an ARPA contract.=C2=A0
3. "bangs" were at email level, not Arpanet (or Internet) level= of routing. The "bang" email addresses aided routing through app= lication level gateways.=C2=A0
4. Bob Kahn, Dave Walden, Frank Heart and many others at BBN did t= he Arpanet IMP design. The Arpanet Host-Host NCP effort was led by Steve Cr= ocker (Jon Postel and I and others helped) and stabilized enough to support= email=C2=A0in 1971 and a public demonstration in October 1972. The Interne= t work started the next year in 1973. Since Internet was conceived as a net= work of networks, you needed more than one network to make an Internet. The= re were three to begin with: Arpanet, Packet Radio Net and Packet Satellite= Net, all funded by ARPA.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 4:50 AM David Lloyd-= Jones via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote:
Willi,=

You have=C2=A0shown us that you are full of good sentiments. Quite = a lot of them. Very good ones. I=C2=A0assume that you know something about = the=C2=A0start and development of the Internet but no such knowledge has fo= und its way into your long post.
.
First proposed by Bacon in the fif= teenth century or so, the=C2=A0'Net was a solid policy proposal made by= Vannevar Bush in 1945. It was made possible by the invention of packet-swi= tching in the mid-1960 to 70s. Johnny Foster, JFK's science advisor in = 1961, was the first person I know of to have done solid financing of the ef= fort.=C2=A0 Bush was working on wide-scale computer networking, along with = many other things, when I met him in his utterly=C2=A0false "retiremen= t" in Lexington, Mass. in 1976.=C2=A0This was well before your Reagan = Administration.

The original present "internet" was ARPAnet=C2=A0 (on whi= ch I was user #300 in 1971). This was financed before it really existed by = ARPA when that "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed arou= nd at random in the Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added tha= t "D," for defence, to pretend compliance with the Mansfield Amen= dment. I worked on this on Congressional staff in 1969-71 and at MIT in = 9;72. The D was tacked on in December '71 or January '72, I forget,= but had been in the works ever since Mansfied, as Senator, had tried to pr= event military money from corrupting civilian research. Unfortunately, civi= lian researchers=C2=A0cried piteously that they wanted to be corrupted. By = then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan....=C2=A0

When the scalabilit= y of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem limited, -- all those !!= ! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the development of the p= resent TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When Cerf later went to = work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR department tub-thump= ed that he was "the"=C2=A0founder of "the" Internet. Ma= ny people seem to have believed this inanity. More recently this has been t= oned down to "a" founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switchin= g, the key invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom C= erf studied as a university student. Their=C2=A0much later contribution to = TCP/IP has certainly been useful.=C2=A0

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi = uebelherr via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote:
=

Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet
Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022
https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-c= alls-to-undermine-the-internet/

Dear friends,

Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the Internet is =
for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea.

But the reality is different. The technical players acting today are not interested in a free global communication of people, but in a
commercialization and capitalization of their needs for communication.

This result did not come about by chance, but was already the essential guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the USA under
Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection of local =
Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, became a privately and state organized system of interconnected star-systems,
"the inter-connection of private Star-Systems".

This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility to organize access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we see today
that the system of a free global communication has turned into a field
of censorship and private control mania, organized by countries calling themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized bul= lshit,
because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any directions
can lead to the same goal.

The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human
communication "without borders" are those who call themselves representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every dive= rsity
with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil Rhodes is pu= t
back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of communication that is now elevated to the absolute.

The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that does not
adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, as we saw with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of the life of an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power madness
it has developed into, where only private profit interests and state
delusions of control apply.

The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the form of an
internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free access to all people of our planet, independent of their social situation and
geographical position.

That and only that is a "net of nets".

with kind regards, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

in german -----------------------------------------------------------

Liebe freunde,

Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf hingewiesen, "the <= br> Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee.

Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden technischen Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der Menschen
interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und Kapitalisierung
ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation.

Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war bereits zu
Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA unter
Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the Inter-connection of loc= al
Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, wurde zu ein= em
privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen Sternsystemen, "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems".

Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, nach
beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu organisieren. Und
wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen
Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn
entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich "der Weste= n"
nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten Schwachsinn,
weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit beliebige
Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen.

Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien
menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als=
Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede =
Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form des
Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch gestellt. Die <= br> Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die nun zum
absoluten Mass erhoben wird.

Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das sich nicht an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, wie wir es
bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der Lebensphase eines
Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster kleingeistigem
Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private Profitinteressen und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten.

Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation in Form
eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen Menschen
unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig von ihrer
sozialen Lage und geografischen Position.

Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze".

mit lieben gruessen, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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--0000000000001d1b3d05da41f7d7-- From nobody Tue Mar 15 06:53:25 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 546023A1C17 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:53:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i4n1DMsKEBIP for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ej1-x62e.google.com (mail-ej1-x62e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D5723A14D8 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id gb39so41005054ejc.1 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:53:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=MVXCh1STQAdIk3FZsUEqIs6vyNglYwX1QCwsdVGdThA=; b=PoV95NmC6CU1Yr24n9Opq3370qiXKSpsPJJOhxIB+nSrDJRtguhx5rUnSAZ99TF2da m+237LCcGhA1b/i/sN87K/c5KiyPtt1gqWquzBkoCGklTdoYcvUPBzcgRfQgjrNpvnvR RBcDxKalowWR6ZBny+QlzDu5tf4+LOZ8f5ZaBPykgv5UYb2wW4YqD4K33cYWk7rmAj+A N//3GCK44RMlcC9LRkhr9WT1vrRkiNIuP+cgoWMvoQPriVrQ394nBG8LWmqvbkwKG1TM Bhx+FHKzWx5ivLGIsze3ShfdUUDfrety0ADrbndXCUhlSYEYaouSdb+CdUmQ11TXjtHw +zhg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=MVXCh1STQAdIk3FZsUEqIs6vyNglYwX1QCwsdVGdThA=; b=AoxAjFPyzsO5+p6TF1Ztjetuv5fExnPAcbU8UPhjiHDlYbiWcJUrxWiSJX07RDT1J3 oqgBtDFmyCOZ1QMh9wrnYW/16mkoEgZwWo+B5pzKF31p+4wJdZ4G2y/ecWTBaB5risWP yYC31P52813n7iRLYptxif99nFUqPGHBfiNoh5G85Zvt6b4SxUCerdEtyezvkjHA42aD /ZVDep9wKGaCh7eH3RdCsoQ6kU6RUn8vdRu16rz4OtImmciMyoGC8gEMvm37xZpf3srb zaYuGZw6dc/FIi/ZM0MPkv685vHU4FUA5G/Dpyn5MI7n5Ejo2if8K33zRpUdqjX1RM5/ 4AFQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532PT3MZi7r14pXSmSYrw5Asvw5N9ts9sddiBeBF9XrXsuhDyj73 P0xIK4fAX0An4odq1OcHqTnk8q+Y+BGe2RlY8Ok= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyA4H3ETomHZQtvhnSIuv+NAST8owoyQkNF3C83kOqhRYg6fVLrEkfvUO5f0aYRH8tFlL20HGGUmablSK4Uwag= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:7d8a:b0:6db:3261:d8de with SMTP id oz10-20020a1709077d8a00b006db3261d8demr24262131ejc.239.1647352381553; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:53:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: David Lloyd-Jones Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 09:52:24 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet To: Steve Crocker Cc: vinton cerf , IRTF discuss , IETF discussion , ISOC Lia Kiessling , IGF governance , ISOC Internet Policy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000085c58805da421db7" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 13:53:24 -0000 --00000000000085c58805da421db7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Steve, You're quite right: the Mansfield Amendment was about *all* military money being separated from all civilian research and ARPA as a whole, not just the computer part, was a small part of that. Nevertheless it scared the bejeezus out of the universities and they ran around in circles and panicked a lot. The simple addition of the D during the winter of '71~72 seemed to solve things -- but Mansfield no longer being in the Senate may have been what mattered. Best, -dlj. On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 09:42, Steve Crocker wrote: > David, > > Thanks for the immediate response. > > I don't believe the Mansfield amendment was specific to DARPA. DARPA was > and always has been a very small part of the overall Department of Defense > budget. > > Re "the Net," I'm not sure which network you're referring to. The first > several nodes of the Arpanet were all in the U.S. Many, many lists and > maps have been published documenting the growth of the Arpanet. Given your > reference to bangs, perhaps the net you're referring to was the UUNET, > which used uucp to copy messages from one Unix machine to the next. I'm > less familiar with the details of its growth. > > Steve > > > On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 9:28 AM David Lloyd-Jones < > david.lloydjones@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Steve, >> >> A fine piece, though you take the Official Truths a little too seriously. >> >> "Structured as an agile operation," may be said to be a sweet and nice >> way of saying "slush fund." "Overseen by both DoD management and the >> relevant Congressional committees and subcommittees" is a fine joke for the >> morning. In those days Federal budgets tended to be published about half >> way through the fiscal year, but I believe Junior Bush achieved the >> astonishing trick of publishing a budget after the entire year was over. >> Even today, with Congressional staffs quadruple what they were back then, >> DARPA is so small that I doubt it gets more than a couple of staffers' >> mornings of serious consideration in a year. >> >> The addition of the D was entirely cosmetic, purely for the purpose of >> paying lip-service to the Mansfield Amendment. The name had nothing to do >> with the evolution of the agency itself. In 1962 it was just loose money >> contributed by whichever Pentagon office could be made to cough it up >> toward the end of the year. By ten years later, when then-Senator Mansfied >> was concerned about the possible corrupting influence of military money, it >> had a relatively fixed name, offices, and staff. The solidification has >> continued, as you detail. >> >> FWIW, at the time when "the Net" had seven nodes two of them were in the >> UK, the Defence Establishment, in London, and the fine artificial >> intelligence group up in Edinborough. Both ARPAnet and DARPAnet were rare. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 09:00, Steve Crocker wrote: >> >>> Adding to Vint's comments: >>> >>> I was at (D)ARPA from mid 1971 to mid 1974. Bob Kahn arrived in late >>> 1972. Vint came a few years after I left. >>> >>> The Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) was created in 1958 in >>> response to the launch of Sputnik. It was placed within the Defense >>> Department's Office of the Secretary of Defense (OSD). I believe OSD was >>> about 2,000 people. ARPA was approximately 150 people. It was >>> purposefully structured as an agile operation, authorized to define its own >>> projects and get them moving quickly. Its authority and operation were >>> overseen by both DoD management and the relevant Congressional committees >>> and subcommittees. "Slush fund" is a pejorative term that mischaracterizes >>> the organization. >>> >>> In 1972, following a decision to reduce the size of OSD, ARPA was moved >>> out of OSD and became a Defense agency. This put it in the same status as >>> the other Defense agencies, e.g., Defense Mapping Agency (DMA), Defense >>> Intelligence Agency (DIA), Defense Nuclear Agency (DNA), et al. In the >>> process, "ARPA" acquired the "D" and became DARPA. There was no >>> appreciable change in the mission, structure or operation of the agency. >>> On paper, the director of DARPA now reported directly to the Secretary of >>> Defense instead of the Defense Director for Research and Engineering >>> (DDR&E). In practice, the reporting lines remained the same. I don't >>> believe the transition had anything to do with the Mansfield amendment. >>> (D)ARPA was unabashedly doing work on a wide range of military technologies >>> both before and after the transition. Each internal funding memo included >>> a section describing the relevance of the effort being funded to the >>> overall DoD mission. I wrote my share of these, as did every program >>> manager. See the next paragraphs for a key point related to this. >>> >>> Internally, (D)ARPA is divided into a handful of Offices. Each Office >>> focuses on specific technologies. Offices are created, folded down, and >>> renamed at various times. In the beginning, ARPA focused on the space >>> program. In 1962, the Information Processing Techniques Office (IPTO) was >>> formed to focus on advanced computer science technology. JCR Licklider was >>> the first director. The Office funded research across a broad spectrum of >>> computer science topics ranging from time-sharing systems, graphics, >>> multiprocessor architectures, and artificial intelligence. Many of these >>> ideas had already been articulated and pursued in a few labs around the >>> country. IPTO was able to put considerably more money into these areas. >>> >>> The Offices were how the agency was structured from a personnel point of >>> view. From a budget point of view, the agency was structured in terms of >>> "programs." Each program had a budget and an objective. These were >>> documented and reported to DoD management and Congress each year. >>> >>> Most of the Offices had programs that were intended to yield results >>> within a few years. However, IPTO, the Materials Science Office, and the >>> Behavioral Sciences Office funded research with a *much* longer time >>> horizon. These were considered "basic research" offices, in contrast to >>> the other "development" Offices. The aggregate funding for basic research >>> was just a small fraction of the overall (D)ARPA budget, which meant that >>> most of (D)ARPA's funding was producing visible results fairly regularly. >>> The budgets and progress of the basic research Offices were still reviewed >>> annually, but the expectations were adjusted. >>> >>> The terms "basic research" and "development" correspond to the budget >>> designations "6.1" and "6.2." Line 6 in McNamara's famous reorganization >>> of the Defense budget was Research, Development, Test and Engineering >>> (RDT&E), with designations of 6.1 through 6.4. The funding levels were >>> significantly different, i.e. 6.1 << 6.2 << 6.3 << 6.4. (D)ARPA's funding >>> was limited to just 6.1 and 6.2 programs. >>> >>> In terms of its budget, IPTO evolved and became a hybrid Office with two >>> programs, one with 6.1 funding and one with 6.2 funding. The artificial >>> intelligence work was part of the 6.1 budget. The big system developments, >>> e.g., Illiac IV and Multics, were part of the 6.2 budget. >>> >>> As noted, the idea of a network had been written about and was >>> definitely part of the vision. There were a handful of small efforts to >>> connect two or three computers. The Arpanet was conceived and initiated in >>> 1965-66. After a couple of years of planning, the Request for Quotation >>> for the IMPs was released in 1968. Bolt, Beranek and Newman (BBN) in >>> Cambridge, MA was selected, and work began in 1969. The first IMP was >>> delivered to UCLA at the beginning of September that year. >>> >>> When the Arpanet was up and running, IPTO began to look at packet radio >>> and packet satellite networking. With strong support from the director of >>> the agency, Steve Lukasik, a third budget line item was created, also >>> within the overall 6.2 budget, that focused on communications. >>> >>> ============================ >>> >>> I believe the use of the exclamation point (!), informally called >>> "bang," was part of the UUNET routing scheme, not the Arpanet routing or >>> email addressing. >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 7:59 AM vinton cerf via InternetPolicy < >>> internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>> >>>> 1. Arpanet was never called "Darpanet" >>>> 2. I don't think we ever "numbered" users since getting on the Arpanet >>>> was mostly by having an account on a time-sharing computer at a university >>>> (or research lab) that had an ARPA contract. >>>> 3. "bangs" were at email level, not Arpanet (or Internet) level of >>>> routing. The "bang" email addresses aided routing through application level >>>> gateways. >>>> 4. Bob Kahn, Dave Walden, Frank Heart and many others at BBN did the >>>> Arpanet IMP design. The Arpanet Host-Host NCP effort was led by Steve >>>> Crocker (Jon Postel and I and others helped) and stabilized enough to >>>> support email in 1971 and a public demonstration in October 1972. The >>>> Internet work started the next year in 1973. Since Internet was conceived >>>> as a network of networks, you needed more than one network to make an >>>> Internet. There were three to begin with: Arpanet, Packet Radio Net and >>>> Packet Satellite Net, all funded by ARPA. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 4:50 AM David Lloyd-Jones via InternetPolicy < >>>> internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Willi, >>>>> >>>>> You have shown us that you are full of good sentiments. Quite a lot of >>>>> them. Very good ones. I assume that you know something about the start and >>>>> development of the Internet but no such knowledge has found its way into >>>>> your long post. >>>>> . >>>>> First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or so, the 'Net was a >>>>> solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1945. It was made possible >>>>> by the invention of packet-switching in the mid-1960 to 70s. Johnny Foster, >>>>> JFK's science advisor in 1961, was the first person I know of to have done >>>>> solid financing of the effort. Bush was working on wide-scale computer >>>>> networking, along with many other things, when I met him in his >>>>> utterly false "retirement" in Lexington, Mass. in 1976. This was well >>>>> before your Reagan Administration. >>>>> >>>>> The original present "internet" was ARPAnet (on which I was user #300 >>>>> in 1971). This was financed before it really existed by ARPA when that >>>>> "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed around at random in the >>>>> Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added that "D," for defence, >>>>> to pretend compliance with the Mansfield Amendment. I worked on this on >>>>> Congressional staff in 1969-71 and at MIT in '72. The D was tacked on in >>>>> December '71 or January '72, I forget, but had been in the works ever since >>>>> Mansfied, as Senator, had tried to prevent military money from corrupting >>>>> civilian research. Unfortunately, civilian researchers cried piteously that >>>>> they wanted to be corrupted. By then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan.... >>>>> >>>>> When the scalability of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem >>>>> limited, -- all those !!! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the >>>>> development of the present TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When >>>>> Cerf later went to work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR >>>>> department tub-thumped that he was "the" founder of "the" Internet. Many >>>>> people seem to have believed this inanity. More recently this has been >>>>> toned down to "a" founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switching, the >>>>> key invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom Cerf >>>>> studied as a university student. Their much later contribution to TCP/IP >>>>> has certainly been useful. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi uebelherr via InternetPolicy < >>>>> internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet >>>>>> Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022 >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-calls-to-undermine-the-internet/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear friends, >>>>>> >>>>>> Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the Internet is >>>>>> for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea. >>>>>> >>>>>> But the reality is different. The technical players acting today are >>>>>> not >>>>>> interested in a free global communication of people, but in a >>>>>> commercialization and capitalization of their needs for communication. >>>>>> >>>>>> This result did not come about by chance, but was already the >>>>>> essential >>>>>> guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the USA under >>>>>> Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection of local >>>>>> Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, became a >>>>>> privately and state organized system of interconnected star-systems, >>>>>> "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". >>>>>> >>>>>> This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility to >>>>>> organize >>>>>> access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we see >>>>>> today >>>>>> that the system of a free global communication has turned into a >>>>>> field >>>>>> of censorship and private control mania, organized by countries >>>>>> calling >>>>>> themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized >>>>>> bullshit, >>>>>> because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any directions >>>>>> can lead to the same goal. >>>>>> >>>>>> The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human >>>>>> communication "without borders" are those who call themselves >>>>>> representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every >>>>>> diversity >>>>>> with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil Rhodes is >>>>>> put >>>>>> back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of communication >>>>>> that >>>>>> is now elevated to the absolute. >>>>>> >>>>>> The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that does >>>>>> not >>>>>> adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, as we >>>>>> saw >>>>>> with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of the life >>>>>> of >>>>>> an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power >>>>>> madness >>>>>> it has developed into, where only private profit interests and state >>>>>> delusions of control apply. >>>>>> >>>>>> The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the form of an >>>>>> internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free access >>>>>> to >>>>>> all people of our planet, independent of their social situation and >>>>>> geographical position. >>>>>> >>>>>> That and only that is a "net of nets". >>>>>> >>>>>> with kind regards, willi >>>>>> Asuncion, Paraguay >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> in german ----------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> Liebe freunde, >>>>>> >>>>>> Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf hingewiesen, "the >>>>>> Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee. >>>>>> >>>>>> Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden >>>>>> technischen >>>>>> Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der >>>>>> Menschen >>>>>> interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und Kapitalisierung >>>>>> ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war bereits >>>>>> zu >>>>>> Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA unter >>>>>> Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the Inter-connection of >>>>>> local >>>>>> Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, wurde zu >>>>>> einem >>>>>> privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen >>>>>> Sternsystemen, >>>>>> "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". >>>>>> >>>>>> Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, nach >>>>>> beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu organisieren. Und >>>>>> wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen >>>>>> Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn >>>>>> entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich "der >>>>>> Westen" >>>>>> nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten Schwachsinn, >>>>>> weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit beliebige >>>>>> Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen. >>>>>> >>>>>> Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien >>>>>> menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als >>>>>> Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede >>>>>> Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form des >>>>>> Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch gestellt. Die >>>>>> Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die nun zum >>>>>> absoluten Mass erhoben wird. >>>>>> >>>>>> Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das sich >>>>>> nicht >>>>>> an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, wie wir >>>>>> es >>>>>> bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der Lebensphase >>>>>> eines >>>>>> Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster >>>>>> kleingeistigem >>>>>> Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private >>>>>> Profitinteressen >>>>>> und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten. >>>>>> >>>>>> Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation in Form >>>>>> eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen Menschen >>>>>> unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig von ihrer >>>>>> sozialen Lage und geografischen Position. >>>>>> >>>>>> Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze". >>>>>> >>>>>> mit lieben gruessen, willi >>>>>> Asuncion, Paraguay >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> To manage your Internet Society subscriptions >>>>>> or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at >>>>>> https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login >>>>>> and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. >>>>>> - >>>>>> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: >>>>>> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> To manage your Internet Society subscriptions >>>>> or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at >>>>> https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login >>>>> and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. >>>>> - >>>>> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: >>>>> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To manage your Internet Society subscriptions >>>> or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at >>>> https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login >>>> and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. >>>> - >>>> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: >>>> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ >>>> >>> --00000000000085c58805da421db7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Steve,

You're quite right: the Mansfield Amendm= ent was about all=C2=A0military money bei= ng separated from all civilian research and ARPA as a whole, not just the c= omputer part, was a small part of that. Nevertheless it scared the bejeezus= out of the universities and they ran around in circles and panicked=C2=A0a= lot. The simple addition of the D during the winter of '71~72 seemed t= o solve things -- but Mansfield no longer being in the Senate may have been= what mattered.

Best,
-dlj.

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at = 09:42, Steve Crocker <steve@shinku= ro.com> wrote:
David,

Thanks for the immediate re= sponse.

= I don't believe=C2=A0the Mansfield amendment was specific to DARPA.=C2= =A0 DARPA was and always has been a very small part of the overall Departme= nt of Defense budget.

Re "the Net," I'm not sure which network you&= #39;re referring to.=C2=A0 The first several=C2=A0nodes of the Arpanet were= all in the U.S.=C2=A0 Many, many lists and maps have been published docume= nting=C2=A0the growth of the=C2=A0Arpanet.=C2=A0 Given your reference to ba= ngs, perhaps the net you're referring to was the UUNET, which=C2=A0used= uucp to copy messages from one Unix machine to the next.=C2=A0 I'm les= s familiar=C2=A0with the details of its growth.

Steve

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 9:28 AM David Lloyd-Jones <david.lloydjones@g= mail.com> wrote:
Steve,

A fine piece, though you take the Of= ficial Truths a little too seriously.

"Structured as an agile operation,&qu= ot; may be said to be a sweet and=C2=A0nice way of saying "slush fund.= "=C2=A0 "Overseen by both DoD management and the relevant Congressional= committees and subcommittees" is a fine joke for the morning. In thos= e days Federal budgets tended to be published about half way through the fi= scal year, but I believe Junior Bush achieved the astonishing trick of publ= ishing a budget after the entire year was over. Even today, with Congressio= nal staffs quadruple=C2=A0what they were back then, DARPA is so small that = I doubt it gets more than a couple of staffers' mornings of serious con= sideration in a year.

The addition of the D was entirely cosmetic, p= urely for the purpose of paying lip-service to the Mansfield Amendment. The= name had nothing to do with the evolution of the agency itself. In 1962 it= was just loose money contributed by whichever Pentagon office=C2=A0could b= e made to cough it up toward the end of the year. By ten years later, when = then-Senator Mansfied was concerned about the possible corrupting influence= of military money, it had a relatively fixed name, offices, and staff. The= solidification has continued, as you detail.

FWIW, at the time when= "the Net" had seven nodes two of them were in the UK, the Defenc= e Establishment, in London, and the fine artificial intelligence group=C2= =A0up in Edinborough. Both ARPAnet and DARPAnet were rare.

=C2=A0

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 09:00, Steve Crocker <steve@shinkuro.com>= wrote:
Adding to Vint's co= mments:

= I was at (D)ARPA from mid 1971 to mid 1974.=C2=A0 Bob Kahn arrived in late = 1972.=C2=A0 Vint came a few years after I left.

The Advanced Research Projects Agen= cy (ARPA) was created in 1958 in response to the launch of Sputnik.=C2=A0 I= t was placed within the Defense Department's Office of the Secretary of= Defense (OSD).=C2=A0 I believe OSD was about 2,000 people.=C2=A0 ARPA was = approximately 150 people.=C2=A0 It was purposefully structured as an agile = operation, authorized to define its own projects and get them moving quickl= y.=C2=A0 Its authority and operation were overseen by both DoD management a= nd the relevant Congressional committees and subcommittees.=C2=A0 "Slu= sh fund" is a pejorative=C2=A0term that mischaracterizes the organizat= ion.

In = 1972, following a decision to reduce the size of OSD, ARPA was moved out of= OSD and became a Defense agency.=C2=A0 This put it in the same status as t= he other Defense agencies, e.g., Defense Mapping Agency (DMA), Defense Inte= lligence Agency (DIA), Defense Nuclear Agency (DNA), et al.=C2=A0 In the pr= ocess, "ARPA" acquired the "D" and became DARPA.=C2=A0 = There was no appreciable change in the mission, structure or operation of t= he agency.=C2=A0 On paper, the director of DARPA now reported directly to t= he Secretary of Defense instead of the Defense Director for Research and En= gineering (DDR&E).=C2=A0 In practice, the reporting lines remained the = same.=C2=A0 I don't believe the transition had anything to do with the = Mansfield amendment.=C2=A0 (D)ARPA was unabashedly doing work on a wide ran= ge of military technologies both before and after the transition.=C2=A0 Eac= h internal funding=C2=A0 memo included a section describing the relevance o= f the effort being funded to the overall DoD mission.=C2=A0 I wrote my shar= e of these, as did every program manager.=C2=A0 See the next paragraphs for= a key point related to this.

Internally, (D)ARPA is divided into a handful of Offi= ces.=C2=A0 Each Office focuses on specific technologies.=C2=A0 Offices are = created, folded down, and renamed at various times.=C2=A0 In the beginning,= ARPA focused on the space program.=C2=A0 In 1962, the Information Processi= ng Techniques Office (IPTO) was formed to focus on advanced computer scienc= e technology.=C2=A0 JCR Licklider was the first director.=C2=A0 The Office = funded research across a broad spectrum of computer science topics ranging = from time-sharing systems, graphics, multiprocessor architectures, and arti= ficial intelligence.=C2=A0 Many of these ideas had already been articulated= and pursued in a few labs around the country.=C2=A0 IPTO was able to put c= onsiderably=C2=A0more money into these areas.

The Offices were how the agency was s= tructured from a personnel point of view.=C2=A0 From a budget point of view= , the agency was structured in terms of "programs."=C2=A0 Each pr= ogram had a budget and an objective.=C2=A0 These were documented and report= ed to DoD management and Congress each year.

Most of the Offices had programs that = were intended to yield results within a few years.=C2=A0 However, IPTO, the= Materials Science Office, and the Behavioral Sciences Office funded resear= ch with a *much* longer time horizon.=C2=A0 These were considered "bas= ic research" offices, in contrast to the other "development"= Offices.=C2=A0 The aggregate funding for basic research was just a small f= raction of the overall (D)ARPA budget, which meant that most of (D)ARPA'= ;s funding was producing visible results fairly regularly.=C2=A0 The budget= s and progress of the basic research Offices were still reviewed annually, = but the expectations were adjusted.

The terms "basic research" and "= development" correspond to the budget designations "6.1" and= "6.2."=C2=A0 Line 6 in McNamara's famous reorganization of t= he Defense budget was Research, Development, Test and Engineering (RDT&= E), with designations of 6.1 through 6.4.=C2=A0 The funding levels were sig= nificantly different, i.e. 6.1 << 6.2 << 6.3 << 6.4.=C2= =A0 (D)ARPA's funding was limited to just 6.1 and 6.2 programs.

In terms of its= budget, IPTO evolved and became a hybrid Office with two programs, one wit= h 6.1 funding and one with 6.2 funding.=C2=A0 The artificial intelligence w= ork was part of the 6.1 budget.=C2=A0 The big system developments, e.g., Il= liac=C2=A0IV and Multics, were part of the 6.2 budget.

As noted, the idea of a netw= ork had been written about and was definitely part of the vision.=C2=A0 The= re were a handful of small efforts to connect two or three computers.=C2=A0= The Arpanet was conceived and initiated in 1965-66.=C2=A0 After a couple o= f years of planning, the Request for Quotation for the IMPs was released in= 1968.=C2=A0 Bolt, Beranek and Newman (BBN) in Cambridge, MA was selected, = and work began in 1969.=C2=A0 The first IMP was delivered to UCLA at the be= ginning of September that year.

When the Arpanet was up and running, IPTO began to = look at packet radio and packet satellite networking.=C2=A0 With strong sup= port from the director of the agency, Steve Lukasik, a third budget line it= em was created, also within the overall 6.2 budget, that focused on communi= cations.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D

I believe the use of the exclamation point=C2=A0(!), informally called= "bang," was part of the UUNET routing scheme, not the Arpanet ro= uting or email addressing.

Steve

On Tue, M= ar 15, 2022 at 7:59 AM vinton cerf via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy@elists.is= oc.org> wrote:
1. A= rpanet was never called "Darpanet"
2. I don't think we ever "numbered" us= ers since getting on the Arpanet was mostly by having an account on a time-= sharing computer at a university (or research lab) that had an ARPA contrac= t.=C2=A0
3. "bang= s" were at email level, not Arpanet (or Internet) level of routing. Th= e "bang" email addresses aided routing through application level = gateways.=C2=A0
4. Bob= Kahn, Dave Walden, Frank Heart and many others at BBN did the Arpanet IMP = design. The Arpanet Host-Host NCP effort was led by Steve Crocker (Jon Post= el and I and others helped) and stabilized enough to support email=C2=A0in = 1971 and a public demonstration in October 1972. The Internet work started = the next year in 1973. Since Internet was conceived as a network of network= s, you needed more than one network to make an Internet. There were three t= o begin with: Arpanet, Packet Radio Net and Packet Satellite Net, all funde= d by ARPA.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 4:50 AM David Lloyd-Jones via Inter= netPolicy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote:
Willi,

You hav= e=C2=A0shown us that you are full of good sentiments. Quite a lot of them. = Very good ones. I=C2=A0assume that you know something about the=C2=A0start = and development of the Internet but no such knowledge has found its way int= o your long post.
.
First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century = or so, the=C2=A0'Net was a solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush = in 1945. It was made possible by the invention of packet-switching in the m= id-1960 to 70s. Johnny Foster, JFK's science advisor in 1961, was the f= irst person I know of to have done solid financing of the effort.=C2=A0 Bus= h was working on wide-scale computer networking, along with many other thin= gs, when I met him in his utterly=C2=A0false "retirement" in Lexi= ngton, Mass. in 1976.=C2=A0This was well before your Reagan Administration.

The original present "internet" was ARPAnet=C2=A0 (on whi= ch I was user #300 in 1971). This was financed before it really existed by = ARPA when that "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed arou= nd at random in the Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added tha= t "D," for defence, to pretend compliance with the Mansfield Amen= dment. I worked on this on Congressional staff in 1969-71 and at MIT in = 9;72. The D was tacked on in December '71 or January '72, I forget,= but had been in the works ever since Mansfied, as Senator, had tried to pr= event military money from corrupting civilian research. Unfortunately, civi= lian researchers=C2=A0cried piteously that they wanted to be corrupted. By = then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan....=C2=A0

When the scalabilit= y of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem limited, -- all those !!= ! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the development of the p= resent TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When Cerf later went to = work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR department tub-thump= ed that he was "the"=C2=A0founder of "the" Internet. Ma= ny people seem to have believed this inanity. More recently this has been t= oned down to "a" founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switchin= g, the key invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom C= erf studied as a university student. Their=C2=A0much later contribution to = TCP/IP has certainly been useful.=C2=A0

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi = uebelherr via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote:
=

Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet
Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022
https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-c= alls-to-undermine-the-internet/

Dear friends,

Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the Internet is =
for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea.

But the reality is different. The technical players acting today are not interested in a free global communication of people, but in a
commercialization and capitalization of their needs for communication.

This result did not come about by chance, but was already the essential guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the USA under
Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection of local =
Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, became a privately and state organized system of interconnected star-systems,
"the inter-connection of private Star-Systems".

This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility to organize access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we see today
that the system of a free global communication has turned into a field
of censorship and private control mania, organized by countries calling themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized bul= lshit,
because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any directions
can lead to the same goal.

The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human
communication "without borders" are those who call themselves representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every dive= rsity
with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil Rhodes is pu= t
back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of communication that is now elevated to the absolute.

The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that does not
adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, as we saw with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of the life of an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power madness
it has developed into, where only private profit interests and state
delusions of control apply.

The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the form of an
internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free access to all people of our planet, independent of their social situation and
geographical position.

That and only that is a "net of nets".

with kind regards, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

in german -----------------------------------------------------------

Liebe freunde,

Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf hingewiesen, "the <= br> Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee.

Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden technischen Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der Menschen
interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und Kapitalisierung
ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation.

Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war bereits zu
Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA unter
Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the Inter-connection of loc= al
Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, wurde zu ein= em
privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen Sternsystemen, "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems".

Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, nach
beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu organisieren. Und
wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen
Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn
entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich "der Weste= n"
nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten Schwachsinn,
weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit beliebige
Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen.

Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien
menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als=
Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede =
Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form des
Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch gestellt. Die <= br> Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die nun zum
absoluten Mass erhoben wird.

Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das sich nicht an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, wie wir es
bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der Lebensphase eines
Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster kleingeistigem
Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private Profitinteressen und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten.

Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation in Form
eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen Menschen
unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig von ihrer
sozialen Lage und geografischen Position.

Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze".

mit lieben gruessen, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

_______________________________________________
To manage your Internet Society subscriptions
or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Log= in
and go to the Preferences tab within your profile.
-
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/=

_______________________________________________
To manage your Internet Society subscriptions
or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Log= in
and go to the Preferences tab within your profile.
-
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/=

_______________________________________________
To manage your Internet Society subscriptions
or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Log= in
and go to the Preferences tab within your profile.
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View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/=

--00000000000085c58805da421db7-- From nobody Tue Mar 15 09:51:42 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C203A101D for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 09:51:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JN8FeG1tIwiG for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 09:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1034.google.com (mail-pj1-x1034.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1034]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A80CA3A1064 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 09:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1034.google.com with SMTP id o6-20020a17090a9f8600b001c6562049d9so449395pjp.3 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 09:50:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=q7dMbFFXxT5nk0PD8+0kUl62Ae2RzhW/c/HUXmbHLV0=; b=f3vl4evCvCLau5uScP1HDEMcM0MV4eMqctMSJMD3yw7ii0AwEg1tyhRBBt64BEM9+Z aWBTsL5dHr2n+5TaX1qf7fbJD3Mz//Ku5ryPvfzGyyCYA41E9RvIeYbzgGfaFiWXId5r BTpz+aqyPWTwVbCkQEVs91h7PeWtDWsrQapb1lcmlmVsD9oMuKlkMafbCoTphtLlGf6+ 4X7DMt04NZ4NYWh2LtkIanNWUxkvSaesVB84OjLIV8AIwGEHlisJMzoUYuE7r+8CFAqH pS2GTgFkRaq0gKVL5zMEUsfi2JuOWs7hY/Sd26pIGgxuT4hwJ1X/uFKatIL8jn01Zzip 1ccA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=q7dMbFFXxT5nk0PD8+0kUl62Ae2RzhW/c/HUXmbHLV0=; b=28YQyDDlrRXe4ZcNj7o1w/u/7a3JKSpQoe5rAFELAYz5twWAkcgS0qgae5jJIh3PeQ CkuBoW/eLCm9QrniDMtLR+NNJFOTud7Zm5ARK/glXhg84bMnC2fPulLCnu5HEMIXY1Oa vQBCzT1F1ins5oHzpWlqE87GqIPTbwgdXPzhMcvJ8lHaHcfWbQnH6n33bNkmyaoCFfP/ QOASyk8o5UD3Bc43yQCz6Ut7R8smib1g/VToSCU9A6H21AhCxrMGE3VGAw/xb1+9Iadm jaQYmVlSwydMWsO6EK22GOqFo1bUKGcSbRqpaI1jHmELQsT61seTXyNXn9KZ6/cq4Ftk AMow== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533H6I2iVlxf/rnKN49MeVajYkXMRSRfOUX+MbZjfcV0ZxNJMavC DiUL/ExPC+74Dv+NE0CPFc4B4NqG/MFxg0YL73k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzruwcWZOoDei0ZZMLAWLRGDqMk2N7iqIBRCwR2+/dL/bzcWl9AjM7XUOd5Ekh7m+ZUDJPKe1ffbboAnmjnQhc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:aa83:b0:1b9:7c62:61e5 with SMTP id l3-20020a17090aaa8300b001b97c6261e5mr5690006pjq.118.1647363057398; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 09:50:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: vinton cerf Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 12:50:46 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet To: Steve Crocker Cc: David Lloyd-Jones , IRTF discuss , IETF discussion , ISOC Lia Kiessling , IGF governance , ISOC Internet Policy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000da387105da44992c" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 16:51:05 -0000 --000000000000da387105da44992c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" "UUCP routing" versus "UUNET routing"? UUNET did indeed offer UUCP as its primary service but UUCP was implemented widely on all (?) UNIX-based systems and likely on non-UNIX systems for interoperability. v On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 9:00 AM Steve Crocker wrote: > Adding to Vint's comments: > > I was at (D)ARPA from mid 1971 to mid 1974. Bob Kahn arrived in late > 1972. Vint came a few years after I left. > > The Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) was created in 1958 in > response to the launch of Sputnik. It was placed within the Defense > Department's Office of the Secretary of Defense (OSD). I believe OSD was > about 2,000 people. ARPA was approximately 150 people. It was > purposefully structured as an agile operation, authorized to define its own > projects and get them moving quickly. Its authority and operation were > overseen by both DoD management and the relevant Congressional committees > and subcommittees. "Slush fund" is a pejorative term that mischaracterizes > the organization. > > In 1972, following a decision to reduce the size of OSD, ARPA was moved > out of OSD and became a Defense agency. This put it in the same status as > the other Defense agencies, e.g., Defense Mapping Agency (DMA), Defense > Intelligence Agency (DIA), Defense Nuclear Agency (DNA), et al. In the > process, "ARPA" acquired the "D" and became DARPA. There was no > appreciable change in the mission, structure or operation of the agency. > On paper, the director of DARPA now reported directly to the Secretary of > Defense instead of the Defense Director for Research and Engineering > (DDR&E). In practice, the reporting lines remained the same. I don't > believe the transition had anything to do with the Mansfield amendment. > (D)ARPA was unabashedly doing work on a wide range of military technologies > both before and after the transition. Each internal funding memo included > a section describing the relevance of the effort being funded to the > overall DoD mission. I wrote my share of these, as did every program > manager. See the next paragraphs for a key point related to this. > > Internally, (D)ARPA is divided into a handful of Offices. Each Office > focuses on specific technologies. Offices are created, folded down, and > renamed at various times. In the beginning, ARPA focused on the space > program. In 1962, the Information Processing Techniques Office (IPTO) was > formed to focus on advanced computer science technology. JCR Licklider was > the first director. The Office funded research across a broad spectrum of > computer science topics ranging from time-sharing systems, graphics, > multiprocessor architectures, and artificial intelligence. Many of these > ideas had already been articulated and pursued in a few labs around the > country. IPTO was able to put considerably more money into these areas. > > The Offices were how the agency was structured from a personnel point of > view. From a budget point of view, the agency was structured in terms of > "programs." Each program had a budget and an objective. These were > documented and reported to DoD management and Congress each year. > > Most of the Offices had programs that were intended to yield results > within a few years. However, IPTO, the Materials Science Office, and the > Behavioral Sciences Office funded research with a *much* longer time > horizon. These were considered "basic research" offices, in contrast to > the other "development" Offices. The aggregate funding for basic research > was just a small fraction of the overall (D)ARPA budget, which meant that > most of (D)ARPA's funding was producing visible results fairly regularly. > The budgets and progress of the basic research Offices were still reviewed > annually, but the expectations were adjusted. > > The terms "basic research" and "development" correspond to the budget > designations "6.1" and "6.2." Line 6 in McNamara's famous reorganization > of the Defense budget was Research, Development, Test and Engineering > (RDT&E), with designations of 6.1 through 6.4. The funding levels were > significantly different, i.e. 6.1 << 6.2 << 6.3 << 6.4. (D)ARPA's funding > was limited to just 6.1 and 6.2 programs. > > In terms of its budget, IPTO evolved and became a hybrid Office with two > programs, one with 6.1 funding and one with 6.2 funding. The artificial > intelligence work was part of the 6.1 budget. The big system developments, > e.g., Illiac IV and Multics, were part of the 6.2 budget. > > As noted, the idea of a network had been written about and was definitely > part of the vision. There were a handful of small efforts to connect two > or three computers. The Arpanet was conceived and initiated in 1965-66. > After a couple of years of planning, the Request for Quotation for the IMPs > was released in 1968. Bolt, Beranek and Newman (BBN) in Cambridge, MA was > selected, and work began in 1969. The first IMP was delivered to UCLA at > the beginning of September that year. > > When the Arpanet was up and running, IPTO began to look at packet radio > and packet satellite networking. With strong support from the director of > the agency, Steve Lukasik, a third budget line item was created, also > within the overall 6.2 budget, that focused on communications. > > ============================ > > I believe the use of the exclamation point (!), informally called "bang," > was part of the UUNET routing scheme, not the Arpanet routing or email > addressing. > > Steve > > > On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 7:59 AM vinton cerf via InternetPolicy < > internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> 1. Arpanet was never called "Darpanet" >> 2. I don't think we ever "numbered" users since getting on the Arpanet >> was mostly by having an account on a time-sharing computer at a university >> (or research lab) that had an ARPA contract. >> 3. "bangs" were at email level, not Arpanet (or Internet) level of >> routing. The "bang" email addresses aided routing through application level >> gateways. >> 4. Bob Kahn, Dave Walden, Frank Heart and many others at BBN did the >> Arpanet IMP design. The Arpanet Host-Host NCP effort was led by Steve >> Crocker (Jon Postel and I and others helped) and stabilized enough to >> support email in 1971 and a public demonstration in October 1972. The >> Internet work started the next year in 1973. Since Internet was conceived >> as a network of networks, you needed more than one network to make an >> Internet. There were three to begin with: Arpanet, Packet Radio Net and >> Packet Satellite Net, all funded by ARPA. >> >> On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 4:50 AM David Lloyd-Jones via InternetPolicy < >> internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >>> Willi, >>> >>> You have shown us that you are full of good sentiments. Quite a lot of >>> them. Very good ones. I assume that you know something about the start and >>> development of the Internet but no such knowledge has found its way into >>> your long post. >>> . >>> First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or so, the 'Net was a >>> solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1945. It was made possible >>> by the invention of packet-switching in the mid-1960 to 70s. Johnny Foster, >>> JFK's science advisor in 1961, was the first person I know of to have done >>> solid financing of the effort. Bush was working on wide-scale computer >>> networking, along with many other things, when I met him in his >>> utterly false "retirement" in Lexington, Mass. in 1976. This was well >>> before your Reagan Administration. >>> >>> The original present "internet" was ARPAnet (on which I was user #300 >>> in 1971). This was financed before it really existed by ARPA when that >>> "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed around at random in the >>> Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added that "D," for defence, >>> to pretend compliance with the Mansfield Amendment. I worked on this on >>> Congressional staff in 1969-71 and at MIT in '72. The D was tacked on in >>> December '71 or January '72, I forget, but had been in the works ever since >>> Mansfied, as Senator, had tried to prevent military money from corrupting >>> civilian research. Unfortunately, civilian researchers cried piteously that >>> they wanted to be corrupted. By then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan.... >>> >>> When the scalability of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem >>> limited, -- all those !!! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the >>> development of the present TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When >>> Cerf later went to work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR >>> department tub-thumped that he was "the" founder of "the" Internet. Many >>> people seem to have believed this inanity. More recently this has been >>> toned down to "a" founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switching, the >>> key invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom Cerf >>> studied as a university student. Their much later contribution to TCP/IP >>> has certainly been useful. >>> >>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi uebelherr via InternetPolicy < >>> internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet >>>> Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022 >>>> >>>> https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-calls-to-undermine-the-internet/ >>>> >>>> Dear friends, >>>> >>>> Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the Internet is >>>> for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea. >>>> >>>> But the reality is different. The technical players acting today are >>>> not >>>> interested in a free global communication of people, but in a >>>> commercialization and capitalization of their needs for communication. >>>> >>>> This result did not come about by chance, but was already the essential >>>> guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the USA under >>>> Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection of local >>>> Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, became a >>>> privately and state organized system of interconnected star-systems, >>>> "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". >>>> >>>> This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility to >>>> organize >>>> access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we see today >>>> that the system of a free global communication has turned into a field >>>> of censorship and private control mania, organized by countries calling >>>> themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized bullshit, >>>> because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any directions >>>> can lead to the same goal. >>>> >>>> The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human >>>> communication "without borders" are those who call themselves >>>> representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every diversity >>>> with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil Rhodes is >>>> put >>>> back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of communication >>>> that >>>> is now elevated to the absolute. >>>> >>>> The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that does not >>>> adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, as we saw >>>> with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of the life >>>> of >>>> an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power madness >>>> it has developed into, where only private profit interests and state >>>> delusions of control apply. >>>> >>>> The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the form of an >>>> internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free access to >>>> all people of our planet, independent of their social situation and >>>> geographical position. >>>> >>>> That and only that is a "net of nets". >>>> >>>> with kind regards, willi >>>> Asuncion, Paraguay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> in german ----------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Liebe freunde, >>>> >>>> Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf hingewiesen, "the >>>> Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee. >>>> >>>> Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden >>>> technischen >>>> Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der Menschen >>>> interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und Kapitalisierung >>>> ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation. >>>> >>>> Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war bereits zu >>>> Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA unter >>>> Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the Inter-connection of >>>> local >>>> Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, wurde zu >>>> einem >>>> privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen >>>> Sternsystemen, >>>> "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". >>>> >>>> Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, nach >>>> beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu organisieren. Und >>>> wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen >>>> Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn >>>> entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich "der >>>> Westen" >>>> nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten Schwachsinn, >>>> weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit beliebige >>>> Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen. >>>> >>>> Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien >>>> menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als >>>> Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede >>>> Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form des >>>> Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch gestellt. Die >>>> Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die nun zum >>>> absoluten Mass erhoben wird. >>>> >>>> Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das sich nicht >>>> an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, wie wir es >>>> bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der Lebensphase eines >>>> Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster kleingeistigem >>>> Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private Profitinteressen >>>> und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten. >>>> >>>> Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation in Form >>>> eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen Menschen >>>> unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig von ihrer >>>> sozialen Lage und geografischen Position. >>>> >>>> Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze". >>>> >>>> mit lieben gruessen, willi >>>> Asuncion, Paraguay >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To manage your Internet Society subscriptions >>>> or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at >>>> https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login >>>> and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. >>>> - >>>> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: >>>> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To manage your Internet Society subscriptions >>> or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at >>> https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login >>> and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. >>> - >>> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: >>> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> To manage your Internet Society subscriptions >> or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at >> https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login >> and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. >> - >> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: >> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ >> > --000000000000da387105da44992c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"UUCP routing" versus "UUNET routing"? UUNET= did indeed offer UUCP as its primary service but UUCP was implemented wide= ly on all (?) UNIX-based systems and likely on non-UNIX systems for interop= erability.

v

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 9:00 AM Steve Crocker <= steve@shinkuro.com> wrote:
=
Adding to Vint's comments:

I was at (D= )ARPA from mid 1971 to mid 1974.=C2=A0 Bob Kahn arrived in late 1972.=C2=A0= Vint came a few years after I left.

The Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) w= as created in 1958 in response to the launch of Sputnik.=C2=A0 It was place= d within the Defense Department's Office of the Secretary of Defense (O= SD).=C2=A0 I believe OSD was about 2,000 people.=C2=A0 ARPA was approximate= ly 150 people.=C2=A0 It was purposefully structured as an agile operation, = authorized to define its own projects and get them moving quickly.=C2=A0 It= s authority and operation were overseen by both DoD management and the rele= vant Congressional committees and subcommittees.=C2=A0 "Slush fund&quo= t; is a pejorative=C2=A0term that mischaracterizes the organization.
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size= :small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
In 1972, follo= wing a decision to reduce the size of OSD, ARPA was moved out of OSD and be= came a Defense agency.=C2=A0 This put it in the same status as the other De= fense agencies, e.g., Defense Mapping Agency (DMA), Defense Intelligence Ag= ency (DIA), Defense Nuclear Agency (DNA), et al.=C2=A0 In the process, &quo= t;ARPA" acquired the "D" and became DARPA.=C2=A0 There was n= o appreciable change in the mission, structure or operation of the agency.= =C2=A0 On paper, the director of DARPA now reported directly to the Secreta= ry of Defense instead of the Defense Director for Research and Engineering = (DDR&E).=C2=A0 In practice, the reporting lines remained the same.=C2= =A0 I don't believe the transition had anything to do with the Mansfiel= d amendment.=C2=A0 (D)ARPA was unabashedly doing work on a wide range of mi= litary technologies both before and after the transition.=C2=A0 Each intern= al funding=C2=A0 memo included a section describing the relevance of the ef= fort being funded to the overall DoD mission.=C2=A0 I wrote my share of the= se, as did every program manager.=C2=A0 See the next paragraphs for a key p= oint related to this.

Internally, (D)ARPA is divided into a handful of Offices.= =C2=A0 Each Office focuses on specific technologies.=C2=A0 Offices are crea= ted, folded down, and renamed at various times.=C2=A0 In the beginning, ARP= A focused on the space program.=C2=A0 In 1962, the Information Processing T= echniques Office (IPTO) was formed to focus on advanced computer science te= chnology.=C2=A0 JCR Licklider was the first director.=C2=A0 The Office fund= ed research across a broad spectrum of computer science topics ranging from= time-sharing systems, graphics, multiprocessor architectures, and artifici= al intelligence.=C2=A0 Many of these ideas had already been articulated and= pursued in a few labs around the country.=C2=A0 IPTO was able to put consi= derably=C2=A0more money into these areas.
The Offices were how the agency was struc= tured from a personnel point of view.=C2=A0 From a budget point of view, th= e agency was structured in terms of "programs."=C2=A0 Each progra= m had a budget and an objective.=C2=A0 These were documented and reported t= o DoD management and Congress each year.
Most of the Offices had programs that were= intended to yield results within a few years.=C2=A0 However, IPTO, the Mat= erials Science Office, and the Behavioral Sciences Office funded research w= ith a *much* longer time horizon.=C2=A0 These were considered "basic r= esearch" offices, in contrast to the other "development" Off= ices.=C2=A0 The aggregate funding for basic research was just a small fract= ion of the overall (D)ARPA budget, which meant that most of (D)ARPA's f= unding was producing visible results fairly regularly.=C2=A0 The budgets an= d progress of the basic research Offices were still reviewed annually, but = the expectations were adjusted.

The terms "basic research" and "deve= lopment" correspond to the budget designations "6.1" and &qu= ot;6.2."=C2=A0 Line 6 in McNamara's famous reorganization of the D= efense budget was Research, Development, Test and Engineering (RDT&E), = with designations of 6.1 through 6.4.=C2=A0 The funding levels were signifi= cantly different, i.e. 6.1 << 6.2 << 6.3 << 6.4.=C2=A0 (D= )ARPA's funding was limited to just 6.1 and 6.2 programs.

In terms of its budge= t, IPTO evolved and became a hybrid Office with two programs, one with 6.1 = funding and one with 6.2 funding.=C2=A0 The artificial intelligence work wa= s part of the 6.1 budget.=C2=A0 The big system developments, e.g., Illiac= =C2=A0IV and Multics, were part of the 6.2 budget.

As noted, the idea of a network = had been written about and was definitely part of the vision.=C2=A0 There w= ere a handful of small efforts to connect two or three computers.=C2=A0 The= Arpanet was conceived and initiated in 1965-66.=C2=A0 After a couple of ye= ars of planning, the Request for Quotation for the IMPs was released in 196= 8.=C2=A0 Bolt, Beranek and Newman (BBN) in Cambridge, MA was selected, and = work began in 1969.=C2=A0 The first IMP was delivered to UCLA at the beginn= ing of September that year.

When the Arpanet was up and running, IPTO began to look= at packet radio and packet satellite networking.=C2=A0 With strong support= from the director of the agency, Steve Lukasik, a third budget line item w= as created, also within the overall 6.2 budget, that focused on communicati= ons.

=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D

I= believe the use of the exclamation point=C2=A0(!), informally called "= ;bang," was part of the UUNET routing scheme, not the Arpanet routing = or email addressing.

Steve

On Tue, Mar 15,= 2022 at 7:59 AM vinton cerf via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org= > wrote:
=
1. Arpanet= was never called "Darpanet"
2. I don't think we ever "numbered" users si= nce getting on the Arpanet was mostly by having an account on a time-sharin= g computer at a university (or research lab) that had an ARPA contract.=C2= =A0
3. "bangs&quo= t; were at email level, not Arpanet (or Internet) level of routing. The &qu= ot;bang" email addresses aided routing through application level gatew= ays.=C2=A0
4. Bob Kahn= , Dave Walden, Frank Heart and many others at BBN did the Arpanet IMP desig= n. The Arpanet Host-Host NCP effort was led by Steve Crocker (Jon Postel an= d I and others helped) and stabilized enough to support email=C2=A0in 1971 = and a public demonstration in October 1972. The Internet work started the n= ext year in 1973. Since Internet was conceived as a network of networks, yo= u needed more than one network to make an Internet. There were three to beg= in with: Arpanet, Packet Radio Net and Packet Satellite Net, all funded by = ARPA.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 4:50 AM David Lloyd-Jones via InternetPo= licy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote:
Willi,

You have=C2= =A0shown us that you are full of good sentiments. Quite a lot of them. Very= good ones. I=C2=A0assume that you know something about the=C2=A0start and = development of the Internet but no such knowledge has found its way into yo= ur long post.
.
First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or s= o, the=C2=A0'Net was a solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1= 945. It was made possible by the invention of packet-switching in the mid-1= 960 to 70s. Johnny Foster, JFK's science advisor in 1961, was the first= person I know of to have done solid financing of the effort.=C2=A0 Bush wa= s working on wide-scale computer networking, along with many other things, = when I met him in his utterly=C2=A0false "retirement" in Lexingto= n, Mass. in 1976.=C2=A0This was well before your Reagan Administration.

The original present "internet" was ARPAnet=C2=A0 (on whi= ch I was user #300 in 1971). This was financed before it really existed by = ARPA when that "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed arou= nd at random in the Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added tha= t "D," for defence, to pretend compliance with the Mansfield Amen= dment. I worked on this on Congressional staff in 1969-71 and at MIT in = 9;72. The D was tacked on in December '71 or January '72, I forget,= but had been in the works ever since Mansfied, as Senator, had tried to pr= event military money from corrupting civilian research. Unfortunately, civi= lian researchers=C2=A0cried piteously that they wanted to be corrupted. By = then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan....=C2=A0

When the scalabilit= y of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem limited, -- all those !!= ! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the development of the p= resent TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When Cerf later went to = work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR department tub-thump= ed that he was "the"=C2=A0founder of "the" Internet. Ma= ny people seem to have believed this inanity. More recently this has been t= oned down to "a" founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switchin= g, the key invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom C= erf studied as a university student. Their=C2=A0much later contribution to = TCP/IP has certainly been useful.=C2=A0

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi = uebelherr via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote:
=

Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet
Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022
https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-c= alls-to-undermine-the-internet/

Dear friends,

Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the Internet is =
for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea.

But the reality is different. The technical players acting today are not interested in a free global communication of people, but in a
commercialization and capitalization of their needs for communication.

This result did not come about by chance, but was already the essential guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the USA under
Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection of local =
Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, became a privately and state organized system of interconnected star-systems,
"the inter-connection of private Star-Systems".

This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility to organize access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we see today
that the system of a free global communication has turned into a field
of censorship and private control mania, organized by countries calling themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized bul= lshit,
because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any directions
can lead to the same goal.

The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human
communication "without borders" are those who call themselves representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every dive= rsity
with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil Rhodes is pu= t
back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of communication that is now elevated to the absolute.

The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that does not
adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, as we saw with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of the life of an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power madness
it has developed into, where only private profit interests and state
delusions of control apply.

The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the form of an
internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free access to all people of our planet, independent of their social situation and
geographical position.

That and only that is a "net of nets".

with kind regards, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

in german -----------------------------------------------------------

Liebe freunde,

Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf hingewiesen, "the <= br> Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee.

Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden technischen Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der Menschen
interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und Kapitalisierung
ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation.

Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war bereits zu
Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA unter
Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the Inter-connection of loc= al
Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, wurde zu ein= em
privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen Sternsystemen, "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems".

Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, nach
beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu organisieren. Und
wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen
Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn
entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich "der Weste= n"
nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten Schwachsinn,
weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit beliebige
Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen.

Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien
menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als=
Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede =
Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form des
Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch gestellt. Die <= br> Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die nun zum
absoluten Mass erhoben wird.

Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das sich nicht an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, wie wir es
bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der Lebensphase eines
Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster kleingeistigem
Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private Profitinteressen und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten.

Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation in Form
eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen Menschen
unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig von ihrer
sozialen Lage und geografischen Position.

Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze".

mit lieben gruessen, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

_______________________________________________
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or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
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-
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/=

_______________________________________________
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or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
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-
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/=

_______________________________________________
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or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
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-
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I know there was a command to copy a file f= rom one Unix machine to another. I=E2=80=99m not clear on whether this incl= uded routing to other machines or whether that was a higher level protocol. Steve Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 15, 2022, at 12:50 PM, vinton cerf wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > "UUCP routing" versus "UUNET routing"? UUNET did indeed offer UUCP as its p= rimary service but UUCP was implemented widely on all (?) UNIX-based systems= and likely on non-UNIX systems for interoperability. >=20 > v >=20 >=20 >> On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 9:00 AM Steve Crocker wrote:= >> Adding to Vint's comments: >>=20 >> I was at (D)ARPA from mid 1971 to mid 1974. Bob Kahn arrived in late 197= 2. Vint came a few years after I left. >>=20 >> The Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) was created in 1958 in respo= nse to the launch of Sputnik. It was placed within the Defense Department's= Office of the Secretary of Defense (OSD). I believe OSD was about 2,000 pe= ople. ARPA was approximately 150 people. It was purposefully structured as= an agile operation, authorized to define its own projects and get them movi= ng quickly. Its authority and operation were overseen by both DoD managemen= t and the relevant Congressional committees and subcommittees. "Slush fund"= is a pejorative term that mischaracterizes the organization. >>=20 >> In 1972, following a decision to reduce the size of OSD, ARPA was moved o= ut of OSD and became a Defense agency. This put it in the same status as th= e other Defense agencies, e.g., Defense Mapping Agency (DMA), Defense Intell= igence Agency (DIA), Defense Nuclear Agency (DNA), et al. In the process, "= ARPA" acquired the "D" and became DARPA. There was no appreciable change in= the mission, structure or operation of the agency. On paper, the director o= f DARPA now reported directly to the Secretary of Defense instead of the Def= ense Director for Research and Engineering (DDR&E). In practice, the report= ing lines remained the same. I don't believe the transition had anything to= do with the Mansfield amendment. (D)ARPA was unabashedly doing work on a w= ide range of military technologies both before and after the transition. Ea= ch internal funding memo included a section describing the relevance of the= effort being funded to the overall DoD mission. I wrote my share of these,= as did every program manager. See the next paragraphs for a key point rela= ted to this. >>=20 >> Internally, (D)ARPA is divided into a handful of Offices. Each Office fo= cuses on specific technologies. Offices are created, folded down, and renam= ed at various times. In the beginning, ARPA focused on the space program. I= n 1962, the Information Processing Techniques Office (IPTO) was formed to fo= cus on advanced computer science technology. JCR Licklider was the first di= rector. The Office funded research across a broad spectrum of computer scie= nce topics ranging from time-sharing systems, graphics, multiprocessor archi= tectures, and artificial intelligence. Many of these ideas had already been= articulated and pursued in a few labs around the country. IPTO was able to= put considerably more money into these areas. >>=20 >> The Offices were how the agency was structured from a personnel point of v= iew. =46rom a budget point of view, the agency was structured in terms of "= programs." Each program had a budget and an objective. These were document= ed and reported to DoD management and Congress each year. >>=20 >> Most of the Offices had programs that were intended to yield results with= in a few years. However, IPTO, the Materials Science Office, and the Behavi= oral Sciences Office funded research with a *much* longer time horizon. The= se were considered "basic research" offices, in contrast to the other "devel= opment" Offices. The aggregate funding for basic research was just a small f= raction of the overall (D)ARPA budget, which meant that most of (D)ARPA's fu= nding was producing visible results fairly regularly. The budgets and progr= ess of the basic research Offices were still reviewed annually, but the expe= ctations were adjusted. >>=20 >> The terms "basic research" and "development" correspond to the budget des= ignations "6.1" and "6.2." Line 6 in McNamara's famous reorganization of th= e Defense budget was Research, Development, Test and Engineering (RDT&E), wi= th designations of 6.1 through 6.4. The funding levels were significantly d= ifferent, i.e. 6.1 << 6.2 << 6.3 << 6.4. (D)ARPA's funding was limited to j= ust 6.1 and 6.2 programs. >>=20 >> In terms of its budget, IPTO evolved and became a hybrid Office with two p= rograms, one with 6.1 funding and one with 6.2 funding. The artificial inte= lligence work was part of the 6.1 budget. The big system developments, e.g.= , Illiac IV and Multics, were part of the 6.2 budget. >>=20 >> As noted, the idea of a network had been written about and was definitely= part of the vision. There were a handful of small efforts to connect two o= r three computers. The Arpanet was conceived and initiated in 1965-66. Aft= er a couple of years of planning, the Request for Quotation for the IMPs was= released in 1968. Bolt, Beranek and Newman (BBN) in Cambridge, MA was sele= cted, and work began in 1969. The first IMP was delivered to UCLA at the be= ginning of September that year. >>=20 >> When the Arpanet was up and running, IPTO began to look at packet radio a= nd packet satellite networking. With strong support from the director of th= e agency, Steve Lukasik, a third budget line item was created, also within t= he overall 6.2 budget, that focused on communications. >>=20 >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D >>=20 >> I believe the use of the exclamation point (!), informally called "bang,"= was part of the UUNET routing scheme, not the Arpanet routing or email addr= essing. >>=20 >> Steve >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 7:59 AM vinton cerf via InternetPolicy wrote: >>> 1. Arpanet was never called "Darpanet" >>> 2. I don't think we ever "numbered" users since getting on the Arpanet w= as mostly by having an account on a time-sharing computer at a university (o= r research lab) that had an ARPA contract.=20 >>> 3. "bangs" were at email level, not Arpanet (or Internet) level of routi= ng. The "bang" email addresses aided routing through application level gatew= ays.=20 >>> 4. Bob Kahn, Dave Walden, Frank Heart and many others at BBN did the Arp= anet IMP design. The Arpanet Host-Host NCP effort was led by Steve Crocker (= Jon Postel and I and others helped) and stabilized enough to support email i= n 1971 and a public demonstration in October 1972. The Internet work started= the next year in 1973. Since Internet was conceived as a network of network= s, you needed more than one network to make an Internet. There were three to= begin with: Arpanet, Packet Radio Net and Packet Satellite Net, all funded b= y ARPA. >>>=20 >>>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 4:50 AM David Lloyd-Jones via InternetPolicy wrote: >>>> Willi, >>>>=20 >>>> You have shown us that you are full of good sentiments. Quite a lot of t= hem. Very good ones. I assume that you know something about the start and de= velopment of the Internet but no such knowledge has found its way into your l= ong post. >>>> . >>>> First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or so, the 'Net was a s= olid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1945. It was made possible by t= he invention of packet-switching in the mid-1960 to 70s. Johnny Foster, JFK'= s science advisor in 1961, was the first person I know of to have done solid= financing of the effort. Bush was working on wide-scale computer networkin= g, along with many other things, when I met him in his utterly false "retire= ment" in Lexington, Mass. in 1976. This was well before your Reagan Administ= ration.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> The original present "internet" was ARPAnet (on which I was user #300 i= n 1971). This was financed before it really existed by ARPA when that "Agenc= y" was more-or-less a slush fund passed around at random in the Pentagon. It= continued as DARPAnet after they added that "D," for defence, to pretend co= mpliance with the Mansfield Amendment. I worked on this on Congressional sta= ff in 1969-71 and at MIT in '72. The D was tacked on in December '71 or Janu= ary '72, I forget, but had been in the works ever since Mansfied, as Senator= , had tried to prevent military money from corrupting civilian research. Unf= ortunately, civilian researchers cried piteously that they wanted to be corr= upted. By then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan....=20 >>>>=20 >>>> When the scalability of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem l= imited, -- all those !!! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the developm= ent of the present TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When Cerf lat= er went to work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR department= tub-thumped that he was "the" founder of "the" Internet. Many people seem t= o have believed this inanity. More recently this has been toned down to "a" f= ounder of the Internet. In fact packet-switching, the key invention, was lar= gely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom Cerf studied as a university st= udent. Their much later contribution to TCP/IP has certainly been useful.=20= >>>>=20 >>>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi uebelherr via InternetPolicy wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet >>>>> Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022 >>>>> https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist= -calls-to-undermine-the-internet/ >>>>>=20 >>>>> Dear friends, >>>>>=20 >>>>> Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the Internet is=20= >>>>> for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea. >>>>>=20 >>>>> But the reality is different. The technical players acting today are n= ot=20 >>>>> interested in a free global communication of people, but in a=20 >>>>> commercialization and capitalization of their needs for communication.= >>>>>=20 >>>>> This result did not come about by chance, but was already the essentia= l=20 >>>>> guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the USA under=20= >>>>> Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection of local=20= >>>>> Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, became a=20 >>>>> privately and state organized system of interconnected star-systems,=20= >>>>> "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". >>>>>=20 >>>>> This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility to organi= ze=20 >>>>> access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we see today= =20 >>>>> that the system of a free global communication has turned into a field= =20 >>>>> of censorship and private control mania, organized by countries callin= g=20 >>>>> themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized bullshit= ,=20 >>>>> because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any directions=20= >>>>> can lead to the same goal. >>>>>=20 >>>>> The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human=20 >>>>> communication "without borders" are those who call themselves=20 >>>>> representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every diversity= =20 >>>>> with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil Rhodes is p= ut=20 >>>>> back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of communication th= at=20 >>>>> is now elevated to the absolute. >>>>>=20 >>>>> The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that does not= =20 >>>>> adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, as we sa= w=20 >>>>> with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of the life o= f=20 >>>>> an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power madness= =20 >>>>> it has developed into, where only private profit interests and state=20= >>>>> delusions of control apply. >>>>>=20 >>>>> The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the form of an=20= >>>>> internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free access t= o=20 >>>>> all people of our planet, independent of their social situation and=20= >>>>> geographical position. >>>>>=20 >>>>> That and only that is a "net of nets". >>>>>=20 >>>>> with kind regards, willi >>>>> Asuncion, Paraguay >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> in german ----------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>=20 >>>>> Liebe freunde, >>>>>=20 >>>>> Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf hingewiesen, "the=20= >>>>> Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden technisch= en=20 >>>>> Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der Menschen= =20 >>>>> interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und Kapitalisierung=20= >>>>> ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war bereits zu= =20 >>>>> Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA unter=20 >>>>> Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the Inter-connection of loc= al=20 >>>>> Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, wurde zu ein= em=20 >>>>> privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen Sternsysteme= n,=20 >>>>> "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". >>>>>=20 >>>>> Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, nach=20 >>>>> beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu organisieren. Und=20= >>>>> wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen=20 >>>>> Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn=20 >>>>> entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich "der Weste= n"=20 >>>>> nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten Schwachsinn,=20= >>>>> weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit beliebige=20= >>>>> Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien=20 >>>>> menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als=20 >>>>> Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede=20 >>>>> Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form des=20 >>>>> Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch gestellt. Die=20= >>>>> Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die nun zum=20= >>>>> absoluten Mass erhoben wird. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das sich nich= t=20 >>>>> an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, wie wir es= =20 >>>>> bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der Lebensphase eines= =20 >>>>> Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster kleingeistigem= =20 >>>>> Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private Profitinteresse= n=20 >>>>> und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation in Form=20= >>>>> eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen Menschen=20= >>>>> unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig von ihrer=20= >>>>> sozialen Lage und geografischen Position. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze". >>>>>=20 >>>>> mit lieben gruessen, willi >>>>> Asuncion, Paraguay >>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> To manage your Internet Society subscriptions >>>>> or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at >>>>> https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login >>>>> and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. >>>>> - >>>>> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety= .org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To manage your Internet Society subscriptions >>>> or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at >>>> https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login >>>> and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. >>>> - >>>> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.= org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To manage your Internet Society subscriptions >>> or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at >>> https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login >>> and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. >>> - >>> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.o= rg/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ --Apple-Mail-4F0CE333-6E9A-4F0D-A6A5-2A069D18E54E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My nomenclature re uu* is fuzzy. I kn= ow there was a command to copy a file from one Unix machine to another. &nbs= p;I=E2=80=99m not clear on whether this included routing to other machines o= r whether that was a higher level protocol.

Steve

=
Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 15, 2022, at 12:50 PM, vinton cerf <vgcerf@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
"UUCP routing" versus "UUNET routing"? UUNET did inde= ed offer UUCP as its primary service but UUCP was implemented widely on all (= ?) UNIX-based systems and likely on non-UNIX systems for interoperability.
= v
=

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 9:00 AM Steve Crocker <steve@shinkuro.com> wrote:
Adding to Vint's comments:
=
I was at (D)ARPA from mid 1971 to mid 197= 4. Bob Kahn arrived in late 1972. Vint came a few years after I l= eft.

The Ad= vanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) was created in 1958 in response to th= e launch of Sputnik. It was placed within the Defense Department's Off= ice of the Secretary of Defense (OSD). I believe OSD was about 2,000 p= eople. ARPA was approximately 150 people. It was purposefully st= ructured as an agile operation, authorized to define its own projects and ge= t them moving quickly. Its authority and operation were overseen by bo= th DoD management and the relevant Congressional committees and subcommittee= s. "Slush fund" is a pejorative term that mischaracterizes the or= ganization.

In 1972, following a decision to reduce the size of OSD, ARPA was moved out= of OSD and became a Defense agency. This put it in the same status as= the other Defense agencies, e.g., Defense Mapping Agency (DMA), Defense Int= elligence Agency (DIA), Defense Nuclear Agency (DNA), et al. In the pr= ocess, "ARPA" acquired the "D" and became DARPA. There was no apprecia= ble change in the mission, structure or operation of the agency. On pa= per, the director of DARPA now reported directly to the Secretary of Defense= instead of the Defense Director for Research and Engineering (DDR&E).&n= bsp; In practice, the reporting lines remained the same. I don't belie= ve the transition had anything to do with the Mansfield amendment. (D)= ARPA was unabashedly doing work on a wide range of military technologies bot= h before and after the transition. Each internal funding memo in= cluded a section describing the relevance of the effort being funded to the o= verall DoD mission. I wrote my share of these, as did every program ma= nager. See the next paragraphs for a key point related to this.
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:= small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Internally, (D)AR= PA is divided into a handful of Offices. Each Office focuses on specif= ic technologies. Offices are created, folded down, and renamed at vari= ous times. In the beginning, ARPA focused on the space program. I= n 1962, the Information Processing Techniques Office (IPTO) was formed to fo= cus on advanced computer science technology. JCR Licklider was the fir= st director. The Office funded research across a broad spectrum of com= puter science topics ranging from time-sharing systems, graphics, multiproce= ssor architectures, and artificial intelligence. Many of these ideas h= ad already been articulated and pursued in a few labs around the country.&nb= sp; IPTO was able to put considerably more money into these areas.

The Offices wer= e how the agency was structured from a personnel point of view. =46rom= a budget point of view, the agency was structured in terms of "programs."&n= bsp; Each program had a budget and an objective. These were documented= and reported to DoD management and Congress each year.

Most of the Offices had program= s that were intended to yield results within a few years. However, IPT= O, the Materials Science Office, and the Behavioral Sciences Office funded r= esearch with a *much* longer time horizon. These were considered "basi= c research" offices, in contrast to the other "development" Offices. T= he aggregate funding for basic research was just a small fraction of the ove= rall (D)ARPA budget, which meant that most of (D)ARPA's funding was producin= g visible results fairly regularly. The budgets and progress of the ba= sic research Offices were still reviewed annually, but the expectations were= adjusted.

= The terms "basic research" and "development" correspond to the budget design= ations "6.1" and "6.2." Line 6 in McNamara's famous reorganization of t= he Defense budget was Research, Development, Test and Engineering (RDT&E= ), with designations of 6.1 through 6.4. The funding levels were signi= ficantly different, i.e. 6.1 << 6.2 << 6.3 << 6.4. (= D)ARPA's funding was limited to just 6.1 and 6.2 programs.

In terms of its budget, IPTO e= volved and became a hybrid Office with two programs, one with 6.1 funding an= d one with 6.2 funding. The artificial intelligence work was part of t= he 6.1 budget. The big system developments, e.g., Illiac IV and M= ultics, were part of the 6.2 budget.

As noted, the idea of a network had been written a= bout and was definitely part of the vision. There were a handful of sm= all efforts to connect two or three computers. The Arpanet was conceiv= ed and initiated in 1965-66. After a couple of years of planning, the R= equest for Quotation for the IMPs was released in 1968. Bolt, Beranek a= nd Newman (BBN) in Cambridge, MA was selected, and work began in 1969. = The first IMP was delivered to UCLA at the beginning of September that year= .

When the A= rpanet was up and running, IPTO began to look at packet radio and packet sat= ellite networking. With strong support from the director of the agency= , Steve Lukasik, a third budget line item was created, also within the overa= ll 6.2 budget, that focused on communications.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
I believe the use of the exclamation point&n= bsp;(!), informally called "bang," was part of the UUNET routing scheme, not= the Arpanet routing or email addressing.

<= /div>
Steve

On T= ue, Mar 15, 2022 at 7:59 AM vinton cerf via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy@elists= .isoc.org> wrote:
1. A= rpanet was never called "Darpanet"
2. I don't think we ever "numbered" users since getting on the A= rpanet was mostly by having an account on a time-sharing computer at a unive= rsity (or research lab) that had an ARPA contract.
3. "bangs" were at email level, not Arpane= t (or Internet) level of routing. The "bang" email addresses aided routing t= hrough application level gateways.
4. Bob Kahn, Dave Walden, Frank Heart and many others at B= BN did the Arpanet IMP design. The Arpanet Host-Host NCP effort was led by S= teve Crocker (Jon Postel and I and others helped) and stabilized enough to s= upport email in 1971 and a public demonstration in October 1972. The In= ternet work started the next year in 1973. Since Internet was conceived as a= network of networks, you needed more than one network to make an Internet. T= here were three to begin with: Arpanet, Packet Radio Net and Packet Satellit= e Net, all funded by ARPA.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 4:50 AM David Lloyd-J= ones via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le= ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Willi,
<= br>You have shown us that you are full of good sentiments. Quite a lot o= f them. Very good ones. I assume that you know something about the = ;start and development of the Internet but no such knowledge has found its w= ay into your long post.
.
First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth cen= tury or so, the 'Net was a solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush i= n 1945. It was made possible by the invention of packet-switching in the mid= -1960 to 70s. Johnny Foster, JFK's science advisor in 1961, was the first pe= rson I know of to have done solid financing of the effort. Bush was wo= rking on wide-scale computer networking, along with many other things, when I= met him in his utterly false "retirement" in Lexington, Mass. in 1976.= This was well before your Reagan Administration.

The original present "internet" was ARPAnet (on which I was us= er #300 in 1971). This was financed before it really existed by ARPA when th= at "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed around at random in the Pen= tagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added that "D," for defence, to p= retend compliance with the Mansfield Amendment. I worked on this on Congress= ional staff in 1969-71 and at MIT in '72. The D was tacked on in December '7= 1 or January '72, I forget, but had been in the works ever since Mansfied, a= s Senator, had tried to prevent military money from corrupting civilian rese= arch. Unfortunately, civilian researchers cried piteously that they wan= ted to be corrupted. By then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan....
=
When the scalability of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem li= mited, -- all those !!! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the developme= nt of the present TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When Cerf late= r went to work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR department t= ub-thumped that he was "the" founder of "the" Internet. Many people see= m to have believed this inanity. More recently this has been toned down to "= a" founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switching, the key invention, was= largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom Cerf studied as a universit= y student. Their much later contribution to TCP/IP has certainly been u= seful.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi uebelherr via InternetPolicy &= lt;inter= netpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote:

Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet
Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022
https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-call= s-to-undermine-the-internet/

Dear friends,

Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the Internet is
for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea.

But the reality is different. The technical players acting today are not interested in a free global communication of people, but in a
commercialization and capitalization of their needs for communication.

This result did not come about by chance, but was already the essential
= guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the USA under
Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection of local
Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, became a
privately and state organized system of interconnected star-systems,
"the inter-connection of private Star-Systems".

This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility to organize access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we see today
that the system of a free global communication has turned into a field
of censorship and private control mania, organized by countries calling
= themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized bullshit,
= because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any directions
can lead to the same goal.

The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human
communication "without borders" are those who call themselves
representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every diversity
with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil Rhodes is put back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of communication that is now elevated to the absolute.

The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that does not
adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, as we saw
= with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of the life of an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power madness
it has developed into, where only private profit interests and state
delusions of control apply.

The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the form of an
internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free access to
= all people of our planet, independent of their social situation and
geographical position.

That and only that is a "net of nets".

with kind regards, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

in german -----------------------------------------------------------

Liebe freunde,

Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf hingewiesen, "the
Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee.

Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden technischen Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der Menschen
interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und Kapitalisierung
ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation.

Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war bereits zu
Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA unter
Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the Inter-connection of local Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, wurde zu einem privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen Sternsystemen, "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems".

Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, nach
beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu organisieren. Und
wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen
Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn
entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich "der Westen" nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten Schwachsinn,
weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit beliebige
Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen.

Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien
menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als
Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede
Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form des
Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch gestellt. Die
Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die nun zum
absoluten Mass erhoben wird.

Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das sich nicht
= an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, wie wir es
bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der Lebensphase eines
Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster kleingeistigem
Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private Profitinteressen
= und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten.

Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation in Form
eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen Menschen
unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig von ihrer
sozialen Lage und geografischen Position.

Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze".

mit lieben gruessen, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

_______________________________________________
To manage your Internet Society subscriptions
or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login=
and go to the Preferences tab within your profile.
-
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/
_______________________________________________
To manage your Internet Society subscriptions
or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login=
and go to the Preferences tab within your profile.
-
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/
_______________________________________________
To manage your Internet Society subscriptions
or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login=
and go to the Preferences tab within your profile.
-
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/

= --Apple-Mail-4F0CE333-6E9A-4F0D-A6A5-2A069D18E54E-- From nobody Tue Mar 15 09:57:43 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F132C3A07FD for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 09:57:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NSXDPGQ6tR9L for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 09:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-a1p-077725.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-a1p-077725.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fd01:2bb4::b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 638B93A0112 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 09:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-a1p-077059.sys.comcast.net ([96.103.145.240]) by resqmta-a1p-077725.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id U6lZnSm08Clg4UAThnceNi; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 16:56:57 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=20190202a; t=1647363417; bh=HZYe0++ykZwJUXSuatghlweQs1Po1XtU1wasc+/Uus4=; h=Received:Received:Content-Type:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version: Subject:To:From; b=DhZUtBhMDqb93fCrgKjG0nCCcLbDr/OLB0RTq5jwSOa6RNsa4ZTwuXZqj0Jn7giuK kSY6p+vCIT6YASyKkRUvsFZ3jDZLiGpc2akRTwfRFfwYaTfEntiwfWqGzBGKy+EA3Y pjXluBvOim9I39Kvh64gDhzgUkGwZhzNCPqUEqx9OSw+IDEiWUai3kK1dV9KfYn8X/ +9owxn+G/DIuSXszWBXBHlzpbGkQbF9F1Yxur2CUnZh21ul/8gO+Z3evidX6VqnozU swpP96OmjFs+A3JBy2UoYRUvXvULmp6psn0UAee6qw3d8WV2VDSbKuTph0nLt/tiEf XJupw2fkxPT/Q== Received: from [192.168.1.23] ([108.51.200.187]) by resomta-a1p-077059.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPSA id UAT7n4wRXJ9G5UAT8nHiLQ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 16:56:26 +0000 X-Xfinity-VAAS: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrudeftddgleefucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuvehomhgtrghsthdqtfgvshhipdfqfgfvpdfpqffurfetoffkrfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedtudenucenucfjughrpegtkfffgggfuffvfhfhjgesrgdtreertdefjeenucfhrhhomhepofhitghhrggvlhcuufhtlfhohhhnshcuoehmshhtjhhohhhnshestghomhgtrghsthdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkedvleduudfggeegveehkedvhfdvfeeuuefhkeetieevleffheejudehhfekueefnecuffhomhgrihhnpehinhhtvghrnhgvthhsohgtihgvthihrdhorhhgnecukfhppedutdekrdehuddrvddttddrudekjeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhephhgvlhhopegludelvddrudeikedruddrvdefngdpihhnvghtpedutdekrdehuddrvddttddrudekjedpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmshhtjhhohhhnshestghomhgtrghsthdrnhgvthdpnhgspghrtghpthhtohepuddprhgtphhtthhopehivghtfhesihgvthhfrdhorhhg X-Xfinity-VMeta: sc=0.00;st=legit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------fgytYvmB6RfRHoEAFxQxLMDS" Message-ID: <2b90e223-679c-8ff6-3f8a-1acad7a5e8c0@comcast.net> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 12:56:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.6.1 Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet Content-Language: en-US To: ietf@ietf.org References: From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 16:57:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------fgytYvmB6RfRHoEAFxQxLMDS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Some details added below. On 3/15/2022 7:59 AM, vinton cerf wrote: > 1. Arpanet was never called "Darpanet" ARPA was called DARPA for a short while.   There was also DARTNet which was a research network based on IP technology, but with a life probably later '80s to late 90's. But ARPANET was never DARPANET - never happened.   ARPANet did split into two IMP based networks - ARPANet and Milnet, and Milnet was eventually replaced by the IP router based NIPRNet (New Internet PRotocol Network) beginning around '89-90. > 2. I don't think we ever "numbered" users since getting on the Arpanet > was mostly by having an account on a time-sharing computer at a > university (or research lab) that had an ARPA contract. The only thing I can think of that might have been user serialized were the TACACS login credentials issued by the NIC on behalf of both ARPANET and MILNET. I believe those were active from the NCP -> TCP/IP transition and probably not earlier than '82. > 3. "bangs" were at email level, not Arpanet (or Internet) level of > routing. The "bang" email addresses aided routing through application > level gateways. And for Usenet newsgroups as well, both mostly via UUCP. > 4. Bob Kahn, Dave Walden, Frank Heart and many others at BBN did the > Arpanet IMP design. The Arpanet Host-Host NCP effort was led by Steve > Crocker (Jon Postel and I and others helped) and stabilized enough to > support email in 1971 and a public demonstration in October 1972. The > Internet work started the next year in 1973. Since Internet was > conceived as a network of networks, you needed more than one network > to make an Internet. There were three to begin with: Arpanet, Packet > Radio Net and Packet Satellite Net, all funded by ARPA. AIRC from slides you presented at the first occurrence of what would become the INTEROP conference (specifically as the dinner speaker), both you and Dr Dave Clark (MIT) were partially credited with the split of NCP into TCP and IP and I would say that particular refactoring was the key idea of the new network that allowed it to grow. I seem to remember a picture of a napkin with the sketch of the split.   That would have been presented ~86 at Monterey? Mike > > On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 4:50 AM David Lloyd-Jones via InternetPolicy > wrote: > > Willi, > > You have shown us that you are full of good sentiments. Quite a > lot of them. Very good ones. I assume that you know something > about the start and development of the Internet but no such > knowledge has found its way into your long post. > . > First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or so, the 'Net > was a solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1945. It was > made possible by the invention of packet-switching in the mid-1960 > to 70s. Johnny Foster, JFK's science advisor in 1961, was the > first person I know of to have done solid financing of the > effort. Bush was working on wide-scale computer networking, along > with many other things, when I met him in his utterly false > "retirement" in Lexington, Mass. in 1976. This was well before > your Reagan Administration. > > The original present "internet" was ARPAnet (on which I was user > #300 in 1971). This was financed before it really existed by ARPA > when that "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed around at > random in the Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added > that "D," for defence, to pretend compliance with the Mansfield > Amendment. I worked on this on Congressional staff in 1969-71 and > at MIT in '72. The D was tacked on in December '71 or January '72, > I forget, but had been in the works ever since Mansfied, as > Senator, had tried to prevent military money from corrupting > civilian research. Unfortunately, civilian researchers cried > piteously that they wanted to be corrupted. By then, Mansfied was > ambassador to Japan.... > > When the scalability of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to > seem limited, -- all those !!! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed > by the development of the present TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and > Vint Cerf. When Cerf later went to work for MCI, a hapless little > phone company, their PR department tub-thumped that he was > "the" founder of "the" Internet. Many people seem to have believed > this inanity. More recently this has been toned down to "a" > founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switching, the key > invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom > Cerf studied as a university student. Their much later > contribution to TCP/IP has certainly been useful. > > On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi uebelherr via InternetPolicy > wrote: > > > Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet > Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022 > https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-calls-to-undermine-the-internet/ > > Dear friends, > > Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the > Internet is > for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea. > > But the reality is different. The technical players acting > today are not > interested in a free global communication of people, but in a > commercialization and capitalization of their needs for > communication. > > This result did not come about by chance, but was already the > essential > guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the > USA under > Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection > of local > Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, > became a > privately and state organized system of interconnected > star-systems, > "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". > > This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility > to organize > access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we > see today > that the system of a free global communication has turned into > a field > of censorship and private control mania, organized by > countries calling > themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized > bullshit, > because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any > directions > can lead to the same goal. > > The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human > communication "without borders" are those who call themselves > representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every > diversity > with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil > Rhodes is put > back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of > communication that > is now elevated to the absolute. > > The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that > does not > adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, > as we saw > with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of > the life of > an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power > madness > it has developed into, where only private profit interests and > state > delusions of control apply. > > The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the > form of an > internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free > access to > all people of our planet, independent of their social > situation and > geographical position. > > That and only that is a "net of nets". > > with kind regards, willi > Asuncion, Paraguay > > > > in german > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Liebe freunde, > > Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf > hingewiesen, "the > Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee. > > Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden > technischen > Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der > Menschen > interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und > Kapitalisierung > ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation. > > Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war > bereits zu > Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA > unter > Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the > Inter-connection of local > Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, > wurde zu einem > privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen > Sternsystemen, > "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". > > Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, > nach > beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu > organisieren. Und > wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen > Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn > entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich > "der Westen" > nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten > Schwachsinn, > weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit > beliebige > Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen. > > Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien > menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als > Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede > Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form > des > Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch > gestellt. Die > Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die > nun zum > absoluten Mass erhoben wird. > > Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das > sich nicht > an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, > wie wir es > bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der > Lebensphase eines > Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster > kleingeistigem > Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private > Profitinteressen > und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten. > > Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation > in Form > eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen > Menschen > unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig > von ihrer > sozialen Lage und geografischen Position. > > Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze". > > mit lieben gruessen, willi > Asuncion, Paraguay > > _______________________________________________ > To manage your Internet Society subscriptions > or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at > https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login > and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. > - > View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: > https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ > > _______________________________________________ > To manage your Internet Society subscriptions > or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at > https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login > and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. > - > View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: > https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ > --------------fgytYvmB6RfRHoEAFxQxLMDS Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Some details added below.

On 3/15/2022 7:59 AM, vinton cerf wrote:

1. Arpanet was never called "Darpanet"

ARPA was called DARPA for a short while.   There was also DARTNet which was a research network based on IP technology, but with a life probably later '80s to late 90's. But ARPANET was never DARPANET - never happened.   ARPANet did split into two IMP based networks - ARPANet and Milnet, and Milnet was eventually replaced by the IP router based NIPRNet (New Internet PRotocol Network) beginning around '89-90.

2. I don't think we ever "numbered" users since getting on the Arpanet was mostly by having an account on a time-sharing computer at a university (or research lab) that had an ARPA contract.

The only thing I can think of that might have been user serialized were the TACACS login credentials issued by the NIC on behalf of both ARPANET and MILNET. I believe those were active from the NCP -> TCP/IP transition and probably not earlier than '82.

3. "bangs" were at email level, not Arpanet (or Internet) level of routing. The "bang" email addresses aided routing through application level gateways.

And for Usenet newsgroups as well, both mostly via UUCP.

4. Bob Kahn, Dave Walden, Frank Heart and many others at BBN did the Arpanet IMP design. The Arpanet Host-Host NCP effort was led by Steve Crocker (Jon Postel and I and others helped) and stabilized enough to support email in 1971 and a public demonstration in October 1972. The Internet work started the next year in 1973. Since Internet was conceived as a network of networks, you needed more than one network to make an Internet. There were three to begin with: Arpanet, Packet Radio Net and Packet Satellite Net, all funded by ARPA.

AIRC from slides you presented at the first occurrence of what would become the INTEROP conference (specifically as the dinner speaker), both you and Dr Dave Clark (MIT) were partially credited with the split of NCP into TCP and IP and I would say that particular refactoring was the key idea of the new network that allowed it to grow. I seem to remember a picture of a napkin with the sketch of the split.   That would have been presented ~86 at Monterey?

Mike

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 4:50 AM David Lloyd-Jones via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote:

Willi,

You have shown us that you are full of good sentiments. Quite a lot of them. Very good ones. I assume that you know something about the start and development of the Internet but no such knowledge has found its way into your long post.
.
First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or so, the 'Net was a solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1945. It was made possible by the invention of packet-switching in the mid-1960 to 70s. Johnny Foster, JFK's science advisor in 1961, was the first person I know of to have done solid financing of the effort. Bush was working on wide-scale computer networking, along with many other things, when I met him in his utterly false "retirement" in Lexington, Mass. in 1976. This was well before your Reagan Administration.

The original present "internet" was ARPAnet (on which I was user #300 in 1971). This was financed before it really existed by ARPA when that "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed around at random in the Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added that "D," for defence, to pretend compliance with the Mansfield Amendment. I worked on this on Congressional staff in 1969-71 and at MIT in '72. The D was tacked on in December '71 or January '72, I forget, but had been in the works ever since Mansfied, as Senator, had tried to prevent military money from corrupting civilian research. Unfortunately, civilian researchers cried piteously that they wanted to be corrupted. By then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan....

When the scalability of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem limited, -- all those !!! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the development of the present TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When Cerf later went to work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR department tub-thumped that he was "the" founder of "the" Internet. Many people seem to have believed this inanity. More recently this has been toned down to "a" founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switching, the key invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom Cerf studied as a university student. Their much later contribution to TCP/IP has certainly been useful.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi uebelherr via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote:

Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet
Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022
https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-calls-to-undermine-the-internet/

Dear friends,

Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the Internet is
for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea.

But the reality is different. The technical players acting today are not
interested in a free global communication of people, but in a
commercialization and capitalization of their needs for communication.

This result did not come about by chance, but was already the essential
guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the USA under
Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection of local
Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, became a
privately and state organized system of interconnected star-systems,
"the inter-connection of private Star-Systems".

This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility to organize
access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we see today
that the system of a free global communication has turned into a field
of censorship and private control mania, organized by countries calling
themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized bullshit,
because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any directions
can lead to the same goal.

The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human
communication "without borders" are those who call themselves
representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every diversity
with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil Rhodes is put
back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of communication that
is now elevated to the absolute.

The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that does not
adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, as we saw
with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of the life of
an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power madness
it has developed into, where only private profit interests and state
delusions of control apply.

The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the form of an
internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free access to
all people of our planet, independent of their social situation and
geographical position.

That and only that is a "net of nets".

with kind regards, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

in german -----------------------------------------------------------

Liebe freunde,

Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf hingewiesen, "the
Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee.

Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden technischen
Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der Menschen
interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und Kapitalisierung
ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation.

Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war bereits zu
Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA unter
Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the Inter-connection of local
Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, wurde zu einem
privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen Sternsystemen,
"the inter-connection of private Star-Systems".

Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, nach
beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu organisieren. Und
wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen
Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn
entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich "der Westen"
nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten Schwachsinn,
weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit beliebige
Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen.

Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien
menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als
Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede
Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form des
Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch gestellt. Die
Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die nun zum
absoluten Mass erhoben wird.

Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das sich nicht
an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, wie wir es
bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der Lebensphase eines
Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster kleingeistigem
Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private Profitinteressen
und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten.

Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation in Form
eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen Menschen
unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig von ihrer
sozialen Lage und geografischen Position.

Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze".

mit lieben gruessen, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

_______________________________________________
To manage your Internet Society subscriptions
or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login
and go to the Preferences tab within your profile.
-
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/

_______________________________________________
To manage your Internet Society subscriptions
or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login
and go to the Preferences tab within your profile.
-
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/

--------------fgytYvmB6RfRHoEAFxQxLMDS-- From nobody Tue Mar 15 10:07:18 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F36AD3A0923 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 10:07:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wxRQSGJISVAK for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 10:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resdmta-a1p-077302.sys.comcast.net (resdmta-a1p-077302.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fd01:2bb4::c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 349943A08CD for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 10:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-a1p-077051.sys.comcast.net ([96.103.145.229]) by resdmta-a1p-077302.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id U5bbnMgBhHzlAUAdRnb4Bt; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 17:07:01 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=20190202a; t=1647364021; bh=TrR4ne3eo83885bvbljIPXKGAyrDXa05Qyhi2Ou9av0=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Subject:To:From: Content-Type; b=sXCvhImuH1FQ9gNLzqobGDh7860bsMWObACD4rClf0kp7EBMXurvuKNziYv4xNuFB Ds2/TxoH9Jew73J5QoJELdmsyXl0et607bO2BEad6G08sp6ZgOOTCMo+np2F9guKx2 DwjcVkvJMFt0n4iAmsQaCjA8qCskPFyD4vjcjSbTm4suSs6nJuS4uxYWlNZGGqk8VE q3tcx+0GNd+2U5sPaZEptcxYbyAockh770c6W5cl415tnTm8gOh6A3bkz7/kAuDKDT 2Z6inBk5wld/OopUGldp3n4/m2Dn/yW06zZYjy46klaLIjiqtbaoHCIb8dayfLJCPf hTl6Tv2Zkv7tQ== Received: from [192.168.1.23] ([108.51.200.187]) by resomta-a1p-077051.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPSA id UAcynh7I2gf7WUAcynfxRg; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 17:06:37 +0000 X-Xfinity-VAAS: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrudeftddgleehucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuvehomhgtrghsthdqtfgvshhipdfqfgfvpdfpqffurfetoffkrfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedtudenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfhfhfgjtgfgsehtkeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefoihgthhgrvghlucfuthflohhhnhhsuceomhhsthhjohhhnhhssegtohhmtggrshhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpedvheefieekkeeifedvkeefjeevvdduffdtkedvuddtiefgudeviedukeelieeuleenucffohhmrghinhepihgsmhdrtghomhenucfkphepuddtkedrhedurddvtddtrddukeejnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehhvghloheplgduledvrdduieekrddurddvfegnpdhinhgvthepuddtkedrhedurddvtddtrddukeejpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhsthhjohhhnhhssegtohhmtggrshhtrdhnvghtpdhnsggprhgtphhtthhopedupdhrtghpthhtohepihgvthhfsehivghtfhdrohhrgh X-Xfinity-VMeta: sc=0.00;st=legit Message-ID: <926edf21-2fb7-a2ae-b71f-535f4311a85c@comcast.net> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 13:06:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.6.1 Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet Content-Language: en-US To: ietf@ietf.org References: From: Michael StJohns In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 17:07:08 -0000 On 3/15/2022 12:54 PM, Steve Crocker wrote: > My nomenclature re uu* is fuzzy. I know there was a command to copy a > file from one Unix machine to another. I’m not clear on whether this > included routing to other machines or whether that was a higher level > protocol. > > Steve Trimmed. The command was actually "uucp" :-) The "address" for the source and destination was based on a Usenet path and included bangs (!) to separate the non-domain host names. https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/aix/7.2?topic=u-uucp-command Mike ps - for clarification: The group of hosts linked via uucp was called Usenet. UUNet was a commercial enterprise started by Rick Adams to (originally) provide Usenet hub services. I seem to recall that Rick helped fund the transition of Usenet from UUCP to TCP/IP by giving away 56kb modems to hosts that applied for domain names. I *think* (memory is fuzzy here as this wasn't something I directly worked with), that most of the modems eventually transitioned from UUCP dialup to permanent link IP. 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Tue, 15 Mar 2022 13:23:05 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Michael StJohns , "ietf@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet Thread-Topic: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet Thread-Index: AQHYNXdbR0xx0I/VLU2bD55zYSKLw6zAazkAgAA1BICAABEHgIAAQH0AgAABGQCAAANNgP//wZGA Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 17:23:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <926edf21-2fb7-a2ae-b71f-535f4311a85c@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <926edf21-2fb7-a2ae-b71f-535f4311a85c@comcast.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.59.22031300 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <1490F29CCC71F4459E984EF45B6B5F14@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.850 definitions=2022-03-15_05:2022-03-15, 2022-03-15 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=489 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2202240000 definitions=main-2203150105 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: tm2-4HHy1adjXsyRG4UuXoG48nl8Mo_m X-Proofpoint-GUID: tm2-4HHy1adjXsyRG4UuXoG48nl8Mo_m X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.850,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.64.514 definitions=2022-03-15_08,2022-03-15_01,2022-02-23_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=472 priorityscore=1501 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2202240000 definitions=main-2203150105 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 17:23:22 -0000 VGhlIHVzZXIgY29tbWFuZCB3YXMgdXVjcCwgaXQgdXNlZCBleHBsaWNpdCBwYXRoIHJvdXRpbmcs IGEhYiFjIXVzZXIsIHNlbmQgdG8gc2VuZCBpdCBieSBjb25uZWN0aW5nIHRvICJhIiBhbmQgdGhl biBhc2tpbmcgaXQgdG8gc2VuZCB0byAiYiFjIXVzZXIiIGFuZCBzbyBvbi4gT25jZSB0aGUgVVVD UCBNYXBwaW5nIFByb2plY3QgZ290IHVuZGVyd2F5LCBhbmQgdGhlIHBhdGhhbGlhcyBwcm9ncmFt IHdhcyB3aWRlbHkgdXNlZCAoaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuY3MuY29sdW1iaWEuZWR1L35zbWIvcGFwZXJz L3BhdGhhbGlhcy5wYXBlci5wZGYpIHRoZSByb3V0aW5nIGRlY3JlYXNlZCBvbiB1c2VyQGMudXVj cCAoZXZlcnlvbmUga25ldyBpdCB3YXMgYSBmYWtlIGRvbWFpbikgYmVjb21lIGNvbW1vbi4NCg0K VGhlIG1vc3QgY29tbW9uIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9uLCBpbiB0ZXJtcyBvZiB1c2VycyBhbmQgYnl0ZXMs IHdhcyBVc2VuZXQsIG9yIG5ldG5ld3MuICBUaGUgaGlzdG9yeSBzZWN0aW9uIGF0IGh0dHBzOi8v ZW4ud2lraXBlZGlhLm9yZy93aWtpL1VzZW5ldCBpcyBwcmV0dHkgYWNjdXJhdGUgKG1vcmUgdGhh biBzZXZlcmFsIHBvc3RpbmdzIGhlcmUgOikuIEZvcm1lciBTZWN1cml0eSBBRCBTdGV2ZW4gQmVs bG92aW4gd2FzIGEgY28tY3JlYXRvciBvZiBOZXRuZXdzLiBOZXRuZXdzLCBhbHNvIGtub3duIGFz IFVzZW5ldCwgY291bGQgYWxzbyBydW4gb3ZlciBUQ1AvSVAsIHZpYSB0aGUgSUVURidzIE5OVFAg cHJvdG9jb2wuIEkgd3JvdGUgYW4gaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb24gdGhhdCB3YXMgd2lkZWx5IHVzZWQu DQoNClVVTkVUIHdhcyBvcmlnaW5hbGx5IGEgbm9uLXByb2ZpdCBjcmVhdGVkIGJ5IFJpY2sgQWRh bXMgYW5kIGZ1bmRlZCBieSB0aGUgVXNlbml4IGFzc29jaWF0aW9uLiBJdCBtb3JwaGVkIGludG8g YSBjb21tZXJjaWFsIGVudGl0eSwgZ290IGEgYmlnIGRlYWwgd2l0aCBBT0wsIGhvc3RlZCB0aGUg Zmlyc3QgZnVsbHkgY29tbWVyY2lhbCBJU1AgKHdvcmxkLnN0ZC5jb20pLCBhbmQgc28gb24uIFRo ZSAiSGlzdG9yeSIgc2VjdGlvbiBvZiBodHRwczovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9VVU5F VCBpcyBhbHNvIHByZXR0eSBhY2N1cmF0ZS4NCg0KSG9wZSB0aGlzIGhlbHBzLg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Mar 15 10:36:56 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A0B3A11A0 for ; 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Each file = argument is either a pathname on the local machine or is of the form system!path which is interpreted as being on a remote system. In the first form, the contents of the first file are copied to the second. In the second form, each source file is copied into the destination directory. > On Mar 15, 2022, at 10:06, Michael StJohns = wrote: >=20 > On 3/15/2022 12:54 PM, Steve Crocker wrote: >> My nomenclature re uu* is fuzzy. I know there was a command to copy = a file from one Unix machine to another. I=E2=80=99m not clear on = whether this included routing to other machines or whether that was a = higher level protocol. >>=20 >> Steve >=20 > Trimmed. >=20 > The command was actually "uucp" :-) The "address" for the source and = destination was based on a Usenet path and included bangs (!) to = separate the non-domain host names. = https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/aix/7.2?topic=3Du-uucp-command >=20 > Mike >=20 > ps - for clarification: The group of hosts linked via uucp was called = Usenet. UUNet was a commercial enterprise started by Rick Adams to = (originally) provide Usenet hub services. I seem to recall that Rick = helped fund the transition of Usenet from UUCP to TCP/IP by giving away = 56kb modems to hosts that applied for domain names. I *think* (memory = is fuzzy here as this wasn't something I directly worked with), that = most of the modems eventually transitioned from UUCP dialup to permanent = link IP. >=20 >=20 Ole J. 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Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Subject: Re: [irtf-discuss] [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet Content-Language: en-US To: Steve Crocker , vinton cerf Cc: IRTF discuss , David Lloyd-Jones , IETF discussion , ISOC Lia Kiessling , IGF governance , ISOC Internet Policy References: From: Dave Crocker In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 18:05:10 -0000 (when searching on 'uucp' be sure to include 'unix', lest you end up with pointers to quite a different topic...) As I recall, uucp was indeed universal, quite early in the life of unix. Routing was manual, source routing. Hence an 'address' specified each node to be transited, producing potentially many exclamation marks in the address/route. And yes indeed, this was at the email level, rather than at any lower layers. Eventually some major switching node emerged, permitting referencing them as an anchor, without regard to the path to get to the major switch. As I recall, there were separate apps that computed uucp network maps. But I don't recall how those got used. FWIW, for CSNet, we used the percent symbol, to indicate one hop, beyond the arpanet. Hence user%csnet-host@csnet-relay. So, arguably, a hybrid of global and relative addressing. The hybrid -- and the resulting email address syntax -- could get complicated -- and error-rone -- when additional email networks were part of the transit, such as Bitnet. Craig Patridge notes significant discussions needed, that produced the profound benefit of finally getting agreement among operators of these various, independent email services, to use the DNS MX record for routing. d/ On 3/15/2022 9:54 AM, Steve Crocker wrote: > My nomenclature re uu* is fuzzy. I know there was a command to copy a > file from one Unix machine to another. I’m not clear on whether this > included routing to other machines or whether that was a higher level > protocol. > > Steve > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 15, 2022, at 12:50 PM, vinton cerf wrote: >> >> >> "UUCP routing" versus "UUNET routing"? UUNET did indeed offer UUCP as >> its primary service but UUCP was implemented widely on all (?) >> UNIX-based systems and likely on non-UNIX systems for interoperability. From nobody Tue Mar 15 11:12:49 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D557A3A0D25 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 11:12:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=textuality-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aqFUrnyIRjbE for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 11:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x129.google.com (mail-lf1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08F373A1196 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 11:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id bu29so34596680lfb.0 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 11:12:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=textuality-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Bfb5NsHJMoAVywxwJZR+Gls3KQjawc02xuCAZlqAwUo=; b=uf1gL9YalqAxKmqyTrzj9HXarVsyzugRDI87LbhfOSUXO0F4xQbGwf9Z4OhASTN/Nb iYYqknTSewG+dUWFx0Di658FKRmQPlRiffQew3YAk5uThYL96AqmxhuMBorRzXb0+/bU dTWsP+y7vq6Ku0Yt5rYM0mkKUOFQAg8s4m9f47Wg+wyLsJs1/5i68ZyZjACeH8tbYrQQ Rsbq6rIZlhXhi3wgTpcZVtk/mCcIDP8X42Srm7U2gGTjUmcelnnk3Qscb/MnEOar2JsC qkZZEhMDj+M3r7hoXOAG70jQpEM/m9lb4qXLDyC+0kQIov5zfeTStpH3W+uC8cO23vvl RGIQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Bfb5NsHJMoAVywxwJZR+Gls3KQjawc02xuCAZlqAwUo=; b=Bh+gFGuBBIvbQhrDQF1w+IXa4I8nTSksApOkHJH2hGMknTHE9a9NyxnYN8kIs55zRi tJiaVYD88Qp9S1us55Pu87E1R1MzcpiqkgQfuXpOkIhczRvK6vYrx1GJ6fXeq7npxU8j ueNfR9R8ajjtutSZxo0QqvDuOkHmPaojx5QPBAoYhXGn3vu8YVoPWA+MtvluizTT4xLS owDcxkgEmNj7TvZ/9nJZPLrK2RyUtDE1yV+zTEsH9oZP/ZNxFbXtV9nvO6yyd/2Jzac4 rTxl7x3Oo+o6GeSt/aJ0Xg0Dd2M6TGDio282PX4qgSewivkFK5WGKjhOnq6AcxyDmeGc E5CQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533poDUyPlYWgooFQsyEiIdySPXtiAcSHYVHJhM/XBi7r9YJ6SA8 tVNC5TFmclHewxw+sVNxg8MqcSvW2ileLZNRRKPo8vTWxzk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzKjuOB8HkMqzV1Fhn3iBQyr4lSIIXVprpKdp+2aFnyKkjY2xg/qv8gBFLgL8R93GDeQCrooDh4sQ8jv/cNWrc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:b28:b0:448:9448:5315 with SMTP id w40-20020a0565120b2800b0044894485315mr7118400lfu.637.1647367951542; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 11:12:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tim Bray Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 11:12:20 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [irtf-discuss] [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet To: Dave Crocker Cc: Steve Crocker , vinton cerf , IRTF discuss , David Lloyd-Jones , IETF discussion , ISOC Lia Kiessling , IGF governance , ISOC Internet Policy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000091096c05da45bd03" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 18:12:39 -0000 --00000000000091096c05da45bd03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I once spent an unhappy six months very early in my career working in the IT shop of a fifth-rate telephone company's R&D center, where we had both Unix and VMS. The VMS C compiler came out and I eventually got UUCP working on VMS, which I cleverly called UVCP. I could never make it 100% reliable, there was something in the VMS terminal driver that randomly lost characters and I could never get the recovery code to work right. But a couple tries and your data would eventually go through. That wasn't the bad part; the bad part was when our pointy-haired power-crazed IT Director decided we should go into the software business and started selling it. Which meant I had to take support calls from the customers who didn't think that it was OK that it worked except when it didn't. In a rare exhibition of corporate justice, the IT Director was summarily fired one day. On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 11:05 AM Dave Crocker wrote: > (when searching on 'uucp' be sure to include 'unix', lest you end up > with pointers to quite a different topic...) > > > As I recall, uucp was indeed universal, quite early in the life of unix. > > Routing was manual, source routing. Hence an 'address' specified each > node to be transited, producing potentially many exclamation marks in > the address/route. And yes indeed, this was at the email level, rather > than at any lower layers. > > Eventually some major switching node emerged, permitting referencing > them as an anchor, without regard to the path to get to the major > switch. As I recall, there were separate apps that computed uucp > network maps. But I don't recall how those got used. > > FWIW, for CSNet, we used the percent symbol, to indicate one hop, beyond > the arpanet. Hence user%csnet-host@csnet-relay. So, arguably, a hybrid > of global and relative addressing. > > The hybrid -- and the resulting email address syntax -- could get > complicated -- and error-rone -- when additional email networks were > part of the transit, such as Bitnet. > > Craig Patridge notes significant discussions needed, that produced the > profound benefit of finally getting agreement among operators of these > various, independent email services, to use the DNS MX record for routing= . > > > d/ > > > On 3/15/2022 9:54 AM, Steve Crocker wrote: > > My nomenclature re uu* is fuzzy. I know there was a command to copy a > > file from one Unix machine to another. I=E2=80=99m not clear on whethe= r this > > included routing to other machines or whether that was a higher level > > protocol. > > > > Steve > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Mar 15, 2022, at 12:50 PM, vinton cerf wrote: > >> > >> =EF=BB=BF > >> "UUCP routing" versus "UUNET routing"? UUNET did indeed offer UUCP as > >> its primary service but UUCP was implemented widely on all (?) > >> UNIX-based systems and likely on non-UNIX systems for interoperability= . > > --00000000000091096c05da45bd03 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I o= nce spent an unhappy six months very early in my career working in the IT s= hop of a fifth-rate telephone company's R&D center, where we had bo= th Unix and VMS. The VMS C compiler came out and I eventually got UUCP work= ing on VMS, which I cleverly called UVCP.=C2=A0 I could never make it 100% = reliable, there was something in the VMS terminal driver that randomly lost= characters and I could never get the recovery code to work right. But a co= uple tries and your data would eventually go through.=C2=A0 That wasn't= the bad part; the bad part was when our pointy-haired power-crazed IT Dire= ctor decided we should go into the software business and started selling it= . =C2=A0 Which meant I had to take support calls from the customers who did= n't think that it was OK that it worked except when it didn't. In a= rare exhibition of corporate justice, the IT Director was summarily fired = one day.=C2=A0

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 11:05 AM Dave Crocker <dhc2@dcrocker.net> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);pa= dding-left:1ex">(when searching on 'uucp' be sure to include 'u= nix', lest you end up
with pointers to quite a different topic...)

As I recall, uucp was indeed universal, quite early in the life of unix.
Routing was manual, source routing.=C2=A0 Hence an 'address' specif= ied each
node to be transited, producing potentially many exclamation marks in
the address/route.=C2=A0 And yes indeed, this was at the email level, rathe= r
than at any lower layers.

Eventually some major switching node emerged, permitting referencing
them as an anchor, without regard to the path to get to the major
switch.=C2=A0 As I recall, there were separate apps that computed uucp
network maps.=C2=A0 But I don't recall how those got used.

FWIW, for CSNet, we used the percent symbol, to indicate one hop, beyond the arpanet.=C2=A0 Hence user%csnet-host@csnet-relay.=C2=A0 So, arguably, a= hybrid
of global and relative addressing.

The hybrid -- and the resulting email address syntax -- could get
complicated -- and error-rone -- when additional email networks were
part of the transit, such as Bitnet.

Craig Patridge notes significant discussions needed, that produced the
profound benefit of finally getting agreement among operators of these
various, independent email services, to use the DNS MX record for routing.<= br>

d/

On 3/15/2022 9:54 AM, Steve Crocker wrote:
> My nomenclature re uu* is fuzzy.=C2=A0 I know there was a command to c= opy a
> file from one Unix machine to another.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m not clear on = whether this
> included routing to other machines or whether that was a higher level =
> protocol.
>
> Steve
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Mar 15, 2022, at 12:50 PM, vinton cerf <vgcerf@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> =EF=BB=BF
>> "UUCP routing" versus "UUNET routing"? UUNET d= id indeed offer UUCP as
>> its primary service but UUCP was implemented widely on all (?) >> UNIX-based systems and likely on non-UNIX systems for interoperabi= lity.

--00000000000091096c05da45bd03-- From nobody Tue Mar 15 11:13:58 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8C5D3A183A for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 11:13:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.881 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.881 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.248, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iPhum2NBcfsb for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 11:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 103943A1587 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 11:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.51]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6E6E549A9C; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 19:13:28 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 919244EA91A; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 19:13:28 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 19:13:28 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Michael StJohns Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: FYI/redirect (was: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet) Message-ID: References: <2b90e223-679c-8ff6-3f8a-1acad7a5e8c0@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <2b90e223-679c-8ff6-3f8a-1acad7a5e8c0@comcast.net> Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 18:13:56 -0000 Given how ietf@ietf.org is a large-subscriber-set mailing list with hopefully always new members, a quick and hopefully useful service notice: I think i already offered a redirect of the actual subject matter to ISOC's internet-policy mailing list, but given how the thread since then has been a lot of fun about interesting aspects of the Internet/Arpanets history and technologies, and not really about the subject: If you like me enjoy those discussions and insights about Internet history beyond random occurrances here, the best mailing list for that is probably internet-history@elists.isoc.org Sorry for the interruption. Please carry on. Cheers Toerless On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 12:56:20PM -0400, Michael StJohns wrote: > Some details added below. > > On 3/15/2022 7:59 AM, vinton cerf wrote: > > 1. Arpanet was never called "Darpanet" > ARPA was called DARPA for a short while.�� There was also DARTNet which was > a research network based on IP technology, but with a life probably later > '80s to late 90's.� But ARPANET was never DARPANET - never happened.�� > ARPANet did split into two IMP based networks - ARPANet and Milnet, and > Milnet was eventually replaced by the IP router based NIPRNet (New Internet > PRotocol Network) beginning around '89-90. > > 2. I don't think we ever "numbered" users since getting on the Arpanet > > was mostly by having an account on a time-sharing computer at a > > university (or research lab) that had an ARPA contract. > > The only thing I can think of that might have been user serialized were the > TACACS login credentials issued by the NIC on behalf of both ARPANET and > MILNET.� I believe those were active from the NCP -> TCP/IP transition and > probably not earlier than '82. > > > 3. "bangs" were at email level, not Arpanet (or Internet) level of > > routing. The "bang" email addresses aided routing through application > > level gateways. > > And for Usenet newsgroups as well, both mostly via UUCP. > > > 4. Bob Kahn, Dave Walden, Frank Heart and many others at BBN did the > > Arpanet IMP design. The Arpanet Host-Host NCP effort was led by Steve > > Crocker (Jon Postel and I and others helped) and stabilized enough to > > support email�in 1971 and a public demonstration in October 1972. The > > Internet work started the next year in 1973. Since Internet was > > conceived as a network of networks, you needed more than one network to > > make an Internet. There were three to begin with: Arpanet, Packet Radio > > Net and Packet Satellite Net, all funded by ARPA. > > AIRC from slides you presented at the first occurrence of what would become > the INTEROP conference (specifically as the dinner speaker), both you and Dr > Dave Clark (MIT) were partially credited with the split of NCP into TCP and > IP and I would say that particular refactoring was the key idea of the new > network that allowed it to grow.� I seem to remember a picture of a napkin > with the sketch of the split.�� That would have been presented ~86 at > Monterey? > > Mike > > > > > On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 4:50 AM David Lloyd-Jones via InternetPolicy > > wrote: > > > > Willi, > > > > You have�shown us that you are full of good sentiments. Quite a > > lot of them. Very good ones. I�assume that you know something > > about the�start and development of the Internet but no such > > knowledge has found its way into your long post. > > . > > First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or so, the�'Net > > was a solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1945. It was > > made possible by the invention of packet-switching in the mid-1960 > > to 70s. Johnny Foster, JFK's science advisor in 1961, was the > > first person I know of to have done solid financing of the > > effort.� Bush was working on wide-scale computer networking, along > > with many other things, when I met him in his utterly�false > > "retirement" in Lexington, Mass. in 1976.�This was well before > > your Reagan Administration. > > > > The original present "internet" was ARPAnet� (on which I was user > > #300 in 1971). This was financed before it really existed by ARPA > > when that "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed around at > > random in the Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added > > that "D," for defence, to pretend compliance with the Mansfield > > Amendment. I worked on this on Congressional staff in 1969-71 and > > at MIT in '72. The D was tacked on in December '71 or January '72, > > I forget, but had been in the works ever since Mansfied, as > > Senator, had tried to prevent military money from corrupting > > civilian research. Unfortunately, civilian researchers�cried > > piteously that they wanted to be corrupted. By then, Mansfied was > > ambassador to Japan.... > > > > When the scalability of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to > > seem limited, -- all those !!! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed > > by the development of the present TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and > > Vint Cerf. When Cerf later went to work for MCI, a hapless little > > phone company, their PR department tub-thumped that he was > > "the"�founder of "the" Internet. Many people seem to have believed > > this inanity. More recently this has been toned down to "a" > > founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switching, the key > > invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom > > Cerf studied as a university student. Their�much later > > contribution to TCP/IP has certainly been useful. > > > > On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi uebelherr via InternetPolicy > > wrote: > > > > > > Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet > > Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022 > > https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-calls-to-undermine-the-internet/ > > > > Dear friends, > > > > Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the > > Internet is > > for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea. > > > > But the reality is different. The technical players acting > > today are not > > interested in a free global communication of people, but in a > > commercialization and capitalization of their needs for > > communication. > > > > This result did not come about by chance, but was already the > > essential > > guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the > > USA under > > Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection > > of local > > Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, > > became a > > privately and state organized system of interconnected > > star-systems, > > "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". > > > > This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility > > to organize > > access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we > > see today > > that the system of a free global communication has turned into > > a field > > of censorship and private control mania, organized by > > countries calling > > themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized > > bullshit, > > because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any > > directions > > can lead to the same goal. > > > > The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human > > communication "without borders" are those who call themselves > > representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every > > diversity > > with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil > > Rhodes is put > > back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of > > communication that > > is now elevated to the absolute. > > > > The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that > > does not > > adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, > > as we saw > > with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of > > the life of > > an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power > > madness > > it has developed into, where only private profit interests and > > state > > delusions of control apply. > > > > The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the > > form of an > > internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free > > access to > > all people of our planet, independent of their social > > situation and > > geographical position. > > > > That and only that is a "net of nets". > > > > with kind regards, willi > > Asuncion, Paraguay > > > > > > > > in german > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Liebe freunde, > > > > Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf > > hingewiesen, "the > > Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee. > > > > Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden > > technischen > > Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der > > Menschen > > interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und > > Kapitalisierung > > ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation. > > > > Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war > > bereits zu > > Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA > > unter > > Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the > > Inter-connection of local > > Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, > > wurde zu einem > > privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen > > Sternsystemen, > > "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". > > > > Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, > > nach > > beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu > > organisieren. Und > > wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen > > Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn > > entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich > > "der Westen" > > nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten > > Schwachsinn, > > weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit > > beliebige > > Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen. > > > > Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien > > menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als > > Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede > > Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form > > des > > Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch > > gestellt. Die > > Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die > > nun zum > > absoluten Mass erhoben wird. > > > > Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das > > sich nicht > > an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, > > wie wir es > > bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der > > Lebensphase eines > > Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster > > kleingeistigem > > Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private > > Profitinteressen > > und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten. > > > > Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation > > in Form > > eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen > > Menschen > > unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig > > von ihrer > > sozialen Lage und geografischen Position. > > > > Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze". > > > > mit lieben gruessen, willi > > Asuncion, Paraguay > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To manage your Internet Society subscriptions > > or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at > > https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login > > and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. > > - > > View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: > > https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To manage your Internet Society subscriptions > > or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at > > https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login > > and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. > > - > > View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: > > https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ > > -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Tue Mar 15 19:19:14 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C103A3A1317 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 19:19:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=riseup.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T9otRTJViea7 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 19:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F7AE3A1368 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 19:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fews1.riseup.net (fews1-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.riseup.net", Issuer "R3" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4KJDVJ5VqgzDqKw; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 19:19:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1647397144; bh=W1UsaVq8jhuNwXuvrH08HpT4aGcVizAJnCV/h3ptdAM=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=NDNJELxVUOJqxws/29+MrNiqKM445P4d/EcEqrJCLRS5nPxrP0/BM9ND/bxDOL49j PqPvJ5LLO6GrWA5QN6sW6HJtAwH2Mn1E3T/RdYpfUIBnHMWqGIyBIAkNK7+5ZGxvq/ qpEmQsUzs/8q+REEqPMr73XjigFNFhPBcxGzh7GE= X-Riseup-User-ID: 22D6C00B36EF35D4348AF117A373A7B50A1D9FADE8151363383D65882631985D Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fews1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KJDVF5np0z5vjx; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 19:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 23:19:00 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet) Content-Language: en-US To: ISOC Internet Policy Cc: IETF discussion , IRTF discuss , Toerless Eckert References: <2b90e223-679c-8ff6-3f8a-1acad7a5e8c0@comcast.net> From: willi uebelherr In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 02:19:12 -0000 Dear friends, I am very grateful to everyone for their contributions to this topic and the sub-topics that follow. I have attached the last email from Toerless Eckert from the ietf discussion list. This discussion is thematically about the ISOC policy list, ietf and irtf discussion lists. I have omitted IGF (Internet Governance). I would like to propose the following: Let's make a strict separation of transport and application. The Internet is only a transport system for digital data in packet form and has only one task: To make sure that the packet sent by the sender arrives exactly the same at the receiver. Thus the error handling is implicit part of the transport system. An application abstracts from the concrete ways and distances of the transport. The only variable is the time. We can thus completely simulate any application acting on and with distributed systems in local and global space on a single system. Briefly to the history. We must always take as a basis that both our thinking and our real possibilities change historically dialectically. I myself come from the technical computer science for mechanical engineering and process technology and therefore I know how much the conditions themselves have changed in the course of time. Andrew Sullivan gave us the perspective: "the Internet is for everyone". The question for me is, can a telecommunication in the form of an Internet ever do justice to this task if it is dominated by private and state interests? And if centralization is the dominant method for doing so? My own answer to this question is a resounding no. And the alternative? I got an answer with a question in the environment of IETF, which did not appear on the list: "I would like to hear your ideas on how we can make the internet a network of networks for the people, by the people, with no companies or governments controlling how the people may or may not use it." I remember our first discussion on this question in 2014 on Netmundial's (Brasil) 1net.org list and our second discussion in 2016 on the global ISOC Internet Policy list. My perception was that there was no general interest. Is this because all actors for Internet organization are existentially dependent on this system structure? I don't know, but I suspect so, because I can't find any other explanation for it. To find reasonable and proven construction principles for an InterNet, we do not have to search long: a) the organic nature. Every plant or mushroom is an autonomous system and from the connection of these systems with the systems around the stable biotopes arise. b) the communities with their roads and paths as connections, the transport routes for material transport systems. The navigation and orientation is based on real geographical information. Now I ask myself, why such nonsense with virtual address spaces is organized for the inmaterial transport systems, although clearly every node in the system has a unique geographical position? And why are transfer capacities artificially reduced? And why is a large part of the transfer effort generated only because centralized nodes far outside are supposed to perform the local functionalities? All this makes no sense, if we apply the real requirements as the real criteria and do not deliver ourselves to some useless head births. From this follows: 1) each community organizes its own local and autonomous network with the client and server functionalities and the connections of the houses. The address definitions and the navigation remain a local matter. Servers are always simple file systems that ensure constant operation. The data processing takes place on the clients. 2) these local networks connect to their neighboring local networks and so the lowest level of an Internet is created. 3) for large distances, the number of nodes to be traversed becomes relevant. Therefore, the same occurs with the regional centers. 4) outside the local networks, in the global space, the address of the local network is derived from the geographical position in the WCS84 (World Coordinate System 1984). Thus, each node as a router has immediately from its own position and the destination position the information of direction and distance of the packet and can select the output. 5) there are 3 types of transfer with ascending priority: asynchronous, synchronous and emergency. About the DNS system: For this I suggest that there are only ccTLDs (country/region coded Top Level Domain). Each DNS service can keep these few addresses constantly available. How deep the decentralization is then driven in the region is decided there and can go down to the local network. Each small island or a region on a large island thus maintains its own DNS root server, which knows its own structure and the resulting requirements. Back to the requestor it can go directly afterwards, if no regional cashes are planned on the way. To the global network for free technology: The most important tool to create such an internet is a global network for free technology, which of course also deals with telecommunication. It rests on 2 principles: a) think globally, act locally. This is simple, because the laws of nature are global and universal, and only they and their application are at stake. b) Knowledge is always the heritage of mankind This is also simple because everything that enables us to contribute is inherited from others and from our ancestors. With this I will close for now and greet all readers, willi Asuncion, Paraguay Original in german -------------------------------------------------- Liebe freunde, ich bin allen sehr dankbar fuer ihre Beitraege zu diesem Thema und den darauf folgenden Subthemen. Ich habe die letzte email von Toerless Eckert von der ietf-discussions-liste mit angehaengt. Bei dieser Diskussion geht es thematisch um die ISOC policy liste, ietf und irtf discussion listen. IGF (Internet Governance) habe ich weggelassen. Ich moechte folgendes vorschlagen: Lasst uns eine strikte Trennung von Transport und Anwendung machen. Das Internet ist nur ein Transportsystem fuer digitale Daten in Paketform und hat nur eine Aufgabe: Dafuer zu sorgen, dass das Paket, das der Sender absendet, genau so beim Empfaenger ankommt. Damit ist die Fehlerbehandlung impliziter Teil des Transportsystems. Eine Anwendung abstrahiert von den konkreten Wegen und Distanzen des Transports. Die einzige veraenderliche Groesse dabei ist die Zeit. Wir koennen so jede beliebige Anwendung, die auf und mit verteilten Systemen im lokalen und globalen Raum agiert, auf einem einzelnen System komplett simulieren. Noch kurz zur Geschichte. Wir muessen immer zugrunde legen, dass sich sowohl unser Denken wie auch unsere realen Moeglichkeiten historisch dialektisch veraendern. Ich selbst komme aus der technischen Informatik fuer Maschinenbau und Prozesstechnologie und weiss daher, wie sehr sich im Laufe der Zeit die Bedinguungen selbst veraendert haben. Andrew Sullivan hat uns doch die Perspektive genannt: "the Internet is for everyone". Die Frage fuer mich ist, kann eine Telekommunikation in Form eines Internets jemals dieser Aufgabe gerecht werden, wenn sie von privaten und staatlichen Interessen dominiert wird? Und wenn die Zentralisation die dominante Methode dafuer ist? Ich selbst beantworte diese Frage mit einem klaren Nein. Und die Alternative? Ich bekam eine Antwort mit einer Frage im Umfeld von IETF, die nicht auf der Liste erschien: "I would like to hear your ideas on how we can make the internet a network of networks for the people, by the people, with no companies or governments controlling how the people may or may not use it." Ich erinnere mich an unsere erste Diskussion zu dieser Frage 2014 in der Liste 1net.org von Netmundial (Brasil) und an unsere zweite Diskussion 2016 in der globalen ISOC Internet Policy Liste. Meine Wahrnehmung war, dass kein allgemeines Interesse bestand. Liegt dies daran, dass alle Akteure fuer die Internet-Organisation existenziell von dieser Systemstruktur abhaengig sind? Ich weiss es nicht, vermute es jedoch, weil ich sonst keine Erklaerung dafuer finde. Um vernueftige und bewaehrte Konstruktionsprinzipien fuer ein InterNet zu finden, muessen wir nicht lange suchen: a) die organische Natur. Jede Planze oder Pilz ist ein autonomes System und aus der Verbindung dieser Systeme mit den Systemen umher entstehen die stabilen Biotope. b) die Gemeinden mit ihren Strassen und Wege als Verbindungen, den Transporttrassen fuer materielle Transportsysteme. Die Navigation und Orientierung beruht auf realen geografischen informationen. Jetzt frage ich mich, warum bei den inmateriellen Transportsystemen ein solcher Unsinn mit virtuellen Adressraeumen organisiert wird, obwohl doch eindeutig jeder Knoten im System eine eindeutige geografische Position hat? Und warum werden Transferkapazitaeten kuenstlich reduziert? Und warum wird ein Grossteil des transferaufwands nur deshalb erzeugt, weil zentralisierte Knotenpunkte weit ausserhalb auch die lokalen Funktionalitaeten leisten sollen? Das macht doch alles keinen Sinn, wenn wir die realen Anforderungen als die wirklichen Kriterien anwenden und uns nicht irgendwelchen nutzlosen Kopfgeburten ausliefern. Daraus Folgt: 1) jede Gemeinde organisiert ihr eigenes lokales und autonomes Netzwerk mit den Client- und Server-Funktionalitaeten und den Verbindungen der Haeuser. Die Adressdefinitonen und die Navigation bleibt eine lokale Angelegenheit. Server sind immer nur einfache Filesysteme, die einen konstanten Betrieb sicherstellen. Die Datenverarbeitung findet auf den Clients statt. 2) diese lokalen Netzwerke verbinden sich mit ihren benachbarten lokalen Netzwerken und so entsteht die unterste Ebene eines Internets. 3) fuer grosse Distanzen wird die Anzahl der zu durchlaufenden Knoten relevant. Deshalb entsteht das gleiche mit den regionalen Zentren. 4) ausserhalb der lokalen Netzwerke, im globalen Raum, wird die Adresse des lokalen Netzwerks aus der geografischen Position im WCS84 (World Coordinate System 1984) abgeleitet. Damit hat jeder Knoten als Router aus seiner eigenen Position und der Zielposition sofort die information von Richtung und Distanz des Pakets und kann den Ausgang waehlen. 5) er gibt 3 Transferarten mit aufsteigender Prioritaet: Asynchron, Synchron und Notruf. Zum DNS-System: Dazu schlage ich vor, dass nur noch ccTLDs (country/region coded Top Level Domain) gibt. Jeder DNS-Service kann diese wenigen Adressen stetig zur Verfuegung halten. Wie tief dann die Dezentralisierung in der Region getrieben wird, wird dort entschieden und kann bis hinunter zum lokalen Netzwerk gehen. Jede kleine Insel oder eine Region auf einer grossen Insel unterhaelt damit seinen eigenen DNS-Root-Server, der seine eigene Struktur und die daraus folgenden Anforderungen kennt. Zurueck zum Requestor kann es danach direkt gehen, wenn keine regionalen Cashes unterwegs geplant sind. Zum globalen Netzwerk fuer freie Technologie: Das wichtigste Werkzeug dafuer, ein solches Internet entstehen zu lassen, ist ein globales Netzwerk fuer freie Technologie, das neben den vielen anderen Themen natuerlich auch die Telekommunikation bearbeitet. Es ruht auf 2 Prinzipien: a) global denken, lokal handeln Das ist einfach, weil die Gesetze der Natur global und universal gelten und nur um sie und ihre Anwendung geht es dabei. b) Wissen ist immer Erbe der Menschheit Auch das ist einfach, weil wir alles, was uns in die Lage versetzt, etwas beizutragen, von den Anderen und unseren Vorfahren haben. Damit will ich erstmal schliessen und gruesse alle LeserInnen, willi Asuncion, Paraguay Am 15.03.2022 um 15:13 schrieb Toerless Eckert: > Given how ietf@ietf.org is a large-subscriber-set mailing list with hopefully always new members, > a quick and hopefully useful service notice: > > I think i already offered a redirect of the actual subject matter to ISOC's internet-policy mailing list, > but given how the thread since then has been a lot of fun about interesting aspects of the Internet/Arpanets > history and technologies, and not really about the subject: > > If you like me enjoy those discussions and insights about Internet history beyond random occurrances > here, the best mailing list for that is probably internet-history@elists.isoc.org > > Sorry for the interruption. Please carry on. > > Cheers > Toerless From nobody Tue Mar 15 21:26:33 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73B593A0B9B for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 21:25:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.329 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.329 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=strayalpha.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R8Z0BSFayCgw for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 21:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server217-1.web-hosting.com (server217-1.web-hosting.com [198.54.114.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 105043A0B91 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 21:25:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=strayalpha.com; s=default; h=To:References:Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Mime-Version: Content-Type:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=unX4X0Sjhdx7JikGpSHbJQduH5Jnkfp2nnRp/SHIGBA=; b=EL6G9EKscDSzuT0X6MsC0+VwY2 LIwZm0h2k5rLxv7DaNHK2pQuQw0OSUg0XTEN8R3wbLCAlWcUJE1pPMy2lkE8pIiODC+F5CdtfrIud BoCou2rpcr4PFLykD2z7b6zfQ0aQuqoDOE1KT3E9rcrHVg2tjz2g/FbdTN/KDIPAiA0U1MZ4IvOme iZL2AYhaE3f8FnnJczjMu8tkWzTT5wKV8Hg6T8ww+bnr5hvsPvCrA9LWrcTzrOHmF/91EGRhsisNB E7JJRLWLZLSFe4j/gbmW4op5DlFlEC50b1wD7rRUdY3HTrhd5gcAa4M45gXnoYZhAXZVyuz5kZlf1 GZ7bThGg==; Received: from cpe-172-114-237-88.socal.res.rr.com ([172.114.237.88]:57252 helo=smtpclient.apple) by server217.web-hosting.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1nULEK-0033q4-9D; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 00:25:52 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 $3693.60.0.1.1$) Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet From: "touch@strayalpha.com" In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 21:25:44 -0700 Cc: willi uebelherr , IRTF discuss , ISOC Internet Policy , ISOC Lia Kiessling , IETF discussion , IGF governance Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7F9B5DC4-56C2-4F10-BCFF-19EB5DF3C240@strayalpha.com> References: To: David Lloyd-Jones X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 04:26:00 -0000 (List admin hat off) Others have commented on various parts, but to address one not yet = addressed: > On Mar 15, 2022, at 1:49 AM, David Lloyd-Jones = wrote: >=20 > Willi, > ... > First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or so, IMO, Chappe should get most of the credit. I found a vague reference to = Bacon and the idea, but nothing specific (if you can point us to a = citation, it=E2=80=99d be sincerely appreciated). > the 'Net was a solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1945. In =E2=80=9CAs we may think,=E2=80=9D, he proposed something more akin = to the Web (i.e., a cross-linked database). In fact, he said "It = consists of a desk, and while it can presumably be operated from a = distance, it is primarily the piece of furniture at which he works.=E2=80=9D= - which is the opposite of =E2=80=9Cinformation at a distance=E2=80=9D = that is the core concept of networking. All the examples are of people = creating their own encyclopedia, which misses the collaborative nature = of the net. > It was made possible by the invention of packet-switching in the = mid-1960 to 70s. > =E2=80=A6 > In fact packet-switching, the key invention, was largely the work of Paul Baran and Donald Davies. > Lenny Kleinrock, under whom Cerf studied as a university student. , who (Len) made significant and key contributions to queuing theory, = laying the theoretic foundations for what became packet switching, and = which also had (and continues to have) many other uses at the time. Also = important foundational work on the ARPAnet.=20 But I haven=E2=80=99t seen him credited with *inventing* packet = switching, though. It=E2=80=99s also worth noting that Postel was a student at UCLA at the = same time, though his PhD advisor was Dave Farber, who was at UC Irvine = at the time. The two found a loophole that a PhD advisor in the UC = system had to come from somewhere in the UC system, but not necessarily = at the same school as the student. 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Wed, 16 Mar 2022 07:49:24 +0000 From: Hannes Tschofenig To: willi uebelherr , ISOC Internet Policy CC: IRTF discuss , IETF discussion Subject: RE: Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet) Thread-Topic: Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet) Thread-Index: AQHYONxTJ4iw1PeijESeedlBS41YEKzBoe4Q Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 07:49:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2b90e223-679c-8ff6-3f8a-1acad7a5e8c0@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ts-tracking-id: D910100BB0C0954EAE613B45C006B7FB.0 x-checkrecipientchecked: true Authentication-Results-Original: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=arm.com; X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 7938f97a-52a8-4f39-22db-08da07218249 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM8PR08MB6609:EE_|DB5EUR03FT033:EE_|DB9PR08MB6810:EE_ X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: x-checkrecipientrouted: true nodisclaimer: true X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam-Untrusted: BCL:0; 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Wed, 16 Mar 2022 13:20:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1647462013; bh=dz3t2K7jxA/4fDc1zzrU1bXwOtnyQOhHsNhj7zhZDiY=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=O4wYoxtKiVVhdlkvuTiXFwEIA3QTkZZsIuIzqn6LGU4sh4NZ0yjzWRqFN0FpeqfzE WN05REryrvHkX5edGqaj4VRSEtUb1U5H6HBCnjxwFJKaANqHUNXkfAJKJJw1iVHlUj tkSfwJu9OHRXoxVQE03FBKnCPSvVX+s0J/ogS+tc= X-Riseup-User-ID: 406184A9F1E1E56BA7CDFB51239F0C8D329685DF4B5544CE297F15AE15C05916 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fews1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KJhTl1xpNz5vw2; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 13:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 17:20:08 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet) Content-Language: en-US To: ISOC Internet Policy Cc: IRTF discuss , IETF discussion , Hannes Tschofenig References: <2b90e223-679c-8ff6-3f8a-1acad7a5e8c0@comcast.net> From: willi uebelherr In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 20:20:22 -0000 Dear Hannes, absolut correct, we act in the past and on the level of the past. In this time, the digital information, coded in analog signals, was going over a pure analog system with relais and amplifiers and on the end you have the digital information decoded. In general, nature does not know digital technology. Data transmission will always be analog. Internally in our data processing systems we work with digital interpretation of analog signals. In analog systems, no error checking can take place that relates to digital interpretations. But today, every node in the network works with digital information. Only the connections must still be analog. And thus the error checking can take place in each segment of the transport system. TCP/IP is no longer needed. Also, because the resources in all end nodes are sufficient to receive the packets. If not, the transmitter can determine the capacity of the receiver beforehand, or the receiver will reject the reception. greetings, willi Am 16.03.2022 um 04:49 schrieb Hannes Tschofenig: > A small note: > >> I would like to propose the following: Let's make a strict separation of transport and application. > >> The Internet is only a transport system for digital data in packet form and has only one task: To make sure that the packet sent by the sender arrives exactly the same at the receiver. Thus the error handling is implicit part of the transport system. > > Very few people use the term "Internet" to only refer to the "Internet Protocol". Instead, the Internet is usually used to refer to the whole system, including the applications, TCP/UDP, TLS, and all the other good stuff. > > If you narrow your definition of the "Internet" down to "IP" then your definition of the task above is wrong. IP does not provide error handling so that the packets sent by the sender arrive exactly in the same manner at the receiver. This is a function provided by layers above IP. > > Ciao > Hannes > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. 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Thu, 17 Mar 2022 13:05:14 +0000 From: Samir Srivastava To: "ietf@ietf.org" CC: "cleanindia@ndtv.com" , "newsdesk@abpnetwork.com" , "ureport@foxnews.com" Subject: Acceptance of CBDC || Was Call for opinion on impact of complete cashless economy on 'Security Consideration' Thread-Topic: Acceptance of CBDC || Was Call for opinion on impact of complete cashless economy on 'Security Consideration' Thread-Index: AQHYJMixYBwokNV+jESGtR6btucBKazDrqTT Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 13:05:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [LAkOVjnMDsWWvBRIyHHCnMVLnpfgZPfzUAzMiwmA6wkUIbXG8xVyFaq8CUXz35q8] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 03fb2d91-63ac-4df7-d34f-08da0816c6ab x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SG2PR01MB3094:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?Windows-1252?Q?i93/nFNMr9CzL7dC420DjoV+pzqd1emPhAwotQVn54RVUh2Ty9RMespY?= =?Windows-1252?Q?/nNY/dkFbWaLGLFem4gKNJmnC9OWUR/9LbgXw+/PIcX7a5hHoHRrE4FK?= =?Windows-1252?Q?2Bl/dU1iBLHBOYuGuGbipO8tJn26thRJqXxliuqvkj+r6vF+BhaUN3Ej?= =?Windows-1252?Q?q8ocRBII7bcuP2SydX1HgwrKZwpcKobip1LinBtbVIHsH6Y0PtiLQjjj?= =?Windows-1252?Q?wloevmY1ZG2a/skyRDan2jv82vFz9UIBCpy2002t/We8s3QxrAr6n3gD?= =?Windows-1252?Q?fe5jUAg4ytiCQ3ukfXco7ZGXA1iKowSov7ZH9ByONsvLSavibn7IUDZN?= =?Windows-1252?Q?OsmGtnNHajAQHGuyHy+Wi/wTxsiBONDJ6z5m/vFbPu0fzPtZmdmxhmqM?= =?Windows-1252?Q?Q5EjKl07k59I1wuQtslyeFJTFwxcpJzXzHP/4h+3YBs3+jZ5lODjg718?= =?Windows-1252?Q?agwFswpa9Vvbob5KNSt5Y4l1Ewf5qtC69XobYwCIZRDSxES0QznSieGq?= =?Windows-1252?Q?3qL/xPZxflSI/PhSADj6vWopDYftLZioarZgbcfkx+kU+cMgKMEG0DGl?= =?Windows-1252?Q?ml9FHG91eNex/40EeSM57bSaWPEzWxOepdKCsg76cXvqDeuwwkL/iaTs?= =?Windows-1252?Q?cliLqfKpSzOC37843tOfV5C5wfKDfupdNfviXy1YF45EnCivjUg81C3a?= =?Windows-1252?Q?A0EgGWhpXGjV0kQliRIioBFgOKbUPq1/ix2aWbtPtTmlveIukKk6k5+8?= =?Windows-1252?Q?Z7xBN+NhLPN7ySv/+20KTKqtzesanOLhNPIJsdLymg0Nq+qj98Tpq3Xv?= =?Windows-1252?Q?jiPUTgzs2g9KzVeZbOtu7Kym7VFLb2BP/bseTlS4grkN3F04Xwf6exd3?= =?Windows-1252?Q?3UxxmXATiNpG9tKIOs73B4CF8vO5/IFhXsNsVvaC9AgSWqNZPzu3Zjbt?= =?Windows-1252?Q?oimwTc/iho4f01nGlncF6r20ECR+wakAIjjZUGHhuGVBUPMqvJIQWLib?= =?Windows-1252?Q?dazPfggH2xqS6ewPC0DYevA/tMAyXcTlY89faNjANvAwHGAd84cANVlI?= =?Windows-1252?Q?QsMBWdR6zTYlBRuFyztV0rU7zw6KWEcbKjEeYEG+MxWHQSts0hy/ZGnG?= =?Windows-1252?Q?I+P0m5FxMgf+rzU3Uag4c7YKgHFcgAOxJHcgEHSkg+hFeMYY4EgwkUWr?= =?Windows-1252?Q?DxxMotFZ1NMv5Ec+8o8GtJVy2fqa9olKqowQIrz2C1E50tJ4ac3d589u?= =?Windows-1252?Q?x+is5sf3qNl487WeVUBr5jvlfI49eAG2VC9temv8e6jnCgaMSiIw3lch?= =?Windows-1252?Q?GWE+0g=3D=3D?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_TY2PR0101MB255869C14C685C3DDA5D378196129TY2PR0101MB2558_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: sct-15-20-4755-11-msonline-outlook-d8e84.templateTenant X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: TY2PR0101MB2558.apcprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 03fb2d91-63ac-4df7-d34f-08da0816c6ab X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Mar 2022 13:05:14.0861 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SG2PR01MB3094 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 13:05:26 -0000 --_000_TY2PR0101MB255869C14C685C3DDA5D378196129TY2PR0101MB2558_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I did not hear anything on the work of Complete Cashless Economy and Comp= lete Multimedia Work referred in below email at https://samirsrivastava.typ= epad.com . Please refer https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/11/tech/us-digital-dollar-cb= dc/index.html ; Quote from the above " All told, around 100 countries are exploring CBDCs at one level or anot= her, International Monetary Fund managing director Kristalina Georgieva sai= d during remarks at the Atlantic Council think tank last month. " So, there is acceptance by governments also. Your comments are welcome. Thanks Samir "The world is not dangerous because of those who do harm but because of tho= se who look at it without doing anything" - Albert Einstein ________________________________ From: Samir Srivastava Sent: Friday, February 18, 2022 1:23 PM To: ietf@ietf.org ; postmaster@nobel.no ; vk@khoslaventures.com ; dw@khoslaventures.com Cc: cleanindia@ndtv.com ; newsdesk@abpnetwork.com ; ureport@foxnews.com ; ireport@c= nn.com Subject: Call for opinion on impact of complete cashless economy on 'Securi= ty Consideration' Hi, Please refer the email at http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current= /msg67508.html . I have taken the headers out of this. And pasted the cont= ent in the bottom. There is clarification on the referred email. In year 2010, Nobel told me o= ver the phone that Obama got the Nobel Peace Prize for his VISION. Now on-l= ine material mentions that he got the prize for DIPLOMACY. As per https://= brownpoliticalreview.org/2016/03/not-so-noble-the-politics-behind-the-nobel= -peace-prize/ , =93, his nomination came a mere 12 days into his term. = =93. What OUTSTANDING work was done by him in these 12 days? IMHO, he was awarded for COMPLETE CASHLESS ECONOMY via mobile. This work wa= s done by me. They planned that I will give up my claim under their pressur= izing tactics. I did not give up, then they came up with =93DIPLOMACY=94. I appealed in Supreme Court of USA for impeachment / trial of Obama. Pl ref= er the paperwork sent to them at https://samirsrivastava.typepad.com/files= /fax_20111207_1323294651_39.pdf .They did not do anything. Then it was taken United Nations Human Rights. UN gave the press release in= OCT / NOV 2015 time frame stating =93Justice is not possible in US=94. Wi= thin a or two weeks after UN press release, a press release came out of Nob= el in which =93OUTGOING Nobel executive called Mr. Obama weak=94. Then Secr= etary of State must have briefed the cabinet of secretaries and Vice Presid= ent of Mr. Obama. None of them said anything publicly. Media did not cover even the press releases of UN and Nobel. I sent the imp= eachment / trial paperwork to all the senators in NOV-2015. None of the sen= ators said anything in public. Only one senator replied. hushmail.com chan= ged my emails at the server. IETF did not provide any comments on the proposal of Complete Cashless Econ= omy and Complete Multimedia Recording. Please refer the work at https://sam= irsrivastava.typepad.com/ for slides and papers on this. This work was ref= erred in draft https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-srivastava-dispatch-avoidance-o= f-threats-00 also. IMHO, Reason for people to vote for these changes is not reached to the peo= ple. When it will reach to people, then they will demand these changes. Blo= g mentions the reason also. Please provide the comments on the proposal. Thanks Samir Srivastava *** Begin Email from http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg6= 7508.html *** Call for opinion on impact of cashless economy on 'Security Consideration' Samir Srivastava Wed, 13 July 2011 03:21 UTC Show = header Hi, Readers use information given in this message at thier own risk. Author cannot be held responsible for damages/consequences caused. Refer http://samirsrivastava.typepad.com. Search wipo.int for patents by me. Work has potential to impact security consideration of IETF docs. Awarding a prize is in the sole discretion of awarding organization.Yet nobel peace prize to US President not clear. He was awarded it for diplomacy within a year after becoming President. I sent slide set on cashless economy to khosla ventures in 2007. When I posted on alt.security.terrorism on nov-28-10, president went on surprise trip to Afganistan. I suspect it is used for someting else also. Due to various reasons referred work is not able to draw attention from media and governments. I request parties mentioned on email to clarify doubts on public forum. I request IETEers to review it. BTW outstanding work of nobel winners is well known in advance. Due to unavoidable situations I cannot submit draft. Regards Samir Srivastava *** End Email from http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg675= 08.html *** --_000_TY2PR0101MB255869C14C685C3DDA5D378196129TY2PR0101MB2558_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I did not hear anything on the work of Complete Cashless Economy and= Complete Multimedia Work referred in below email at https://samirsrivastava.typepad.com

Please refer https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/11/tech/us-digital-dollar-cbdc/= index.html ;

Quote from the abov= e

" All told, around 100 countries are exploring CBDCs at one level or ano= ther, International Monetary Fund managing director Kristalina Georgieva said during remarks at the Atlantic Council think tan= k last month.

"

So, there is accept= ance by governments also.

Your comments are w= elcome.

Thanks
Samir

"The world is not dangerous because of those who do harm but because o= f those who look at it without doing anything" - Albert Einstein

From: Samir Srivastava
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2022 1:23 PM
To: ietf@ietf.org <ietf@ietf.org>; postmaster@nobel.no <pos= tmaster@nobel.no>; vk@khoslaventures.com <vk@khoslaventures.com>; = dw@khoslaventures.com <dw@khoslaventures.com>
Cc: cleanindia@ndtv.com <cleanindia@ndtv.com>; newsdesk@abpnet= work.com <newsdesk@abpnetwork.com>; ureport@foxnews.com <ureport@f= oxnews.com>; ireport@cnn.com <ireport@cnn.com>
Subject: Call for opinion on impact of complete cashless economy on = 'Security Consideration'

Hi,

Please refer the email at http://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/ietf/current/msg67508.html<= span style=3D""> . I have taken the headers out of this. And pasted the content in th= e bottom.

There is clarification on the referred email. In year 2010, Nobel told me o= ver the phone that Obama got the Nobel Peace Prize for his VISION. Now on-l= ine material mentions that he got the prize for DIPLOMACY.= As per ht= tps://brownpoliticalreview.org/2016/03/not-so-noble-the-politics-behind-the= -nobel-peace-prize/   , =93, his nomination came a mere 12 days into his term. =93.

What OUTSTANDING work was done by him in these 12 days?

IMHO, he was awarded for COMPLETE CASHLESS ECONOMY via mobile. This work wa= s done by me. They planned that I will give up my claim under their pressur= izing tactics. I did not give up, then they came up with =93DIPLOMACY=94.

I appealed in Supreme Court of USA for impeachment / trial of Obama. Pl ref= er the paperwork sent to them at https://samirsrivastava.typepad.com/files/fax_20111207_132= 3294651_39.pdf  .They did not do anyt= hing.

Then it was taken United Nations Human Rights. UN gave the press release= in OCT / NOV 2015 time frame stating =93Justice is not possible in US=94.<= span style=3D""> Within a or two weeks after UN press release, a press release came o= ut of Nobel in which =93OUTGOING Nobel executive called Mr. Obama weak=94.<= /b> Then Secretary of State must have briefed the cabinet of secretaries an= d Vice President of Mr. Obama. None of them said anything publicly.

Media did not cover even the press releases of UN and Nobel. I sent = the impeachment / trial paperwork to all the senators in NOV-2015. None of = the senators said anything in public. Only one senator replied. hushmail.com changed my emails at the server.=

IETF did not provide any comments on the proposal of Complete Cashless Econ= omy and Complete Multimedia Recording. Please refer the work at http= s://samirsrivastava.typepad.com/ for slides and papers on this. This work was referred in draft

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-srivas= tava-dispatch-avoidance-of-threats-00   = ;also.

IMHO, Reason for people to vote for these changes is not reached to the = people. When it will reach to people, then they will demand these changes. = Blog mentions the reason also.

Please provide the comments on the proposal.

Thanks

Samir Srivastava

*** Begin Email from http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch= ive/web/ietf/current/msg67508.html ***

Call for opinion on impact of cashless economy on 'Security Consideration'&= nbsp;

Samir Srivastava <samirs.lists@gmail.com> Wed, 13 July 2011 03:21 UTC= Show header

Hi, Readers use information given in this message at thier own risk. <= /p>
Author cannot be held responsible for damages/consequences caused.
Refer http://samirsrivastava.typepad.com. Search wipo.int for patents =

by me. Work has potential to impact security consideration of IETF
docs. Awarding a prize is in the sole discret= ion of awarding

organization.Yet nobel peace prize to US President not clear. He was <= /p>
awarded it for diplomacy within a year after becoming President. I
sent slide set on cashless economy to khosla ventures in 2007. When I =

posted on alt.security.terrorism on nov-28-10, president went on

surprise trip to Afganistan. I suspect it is used for someting else
also. Due to various reasons referred work is not able to draw

attention from media and governments. I request parties mentioned on <= /p>
email to clarify doubts on public forum. I request IETEers to review <= /p>
it. BTW outstanding work of nobel winners is well known in advance.
Due to unavoidable situations I cannot submit draft. = Regards Samir

Srivastava

*** End Email from http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg67508.html ***

--_000_TY2PR0101MB255869C14C685C3DDA5D378196129TY2PR0101MB2558_-- From nobody Fri Mar 18 04:54:43 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E7E93A00E3; Fri, 18 Mar 2022 04:54:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TNXlZHK65bTs; Fri, 18 Mar 2022 04:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2003:de:e70b:8e00:7469:1700:3472:7a8a] (p200300dee70b8e007469170034727a8a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [IPv6:2003:de:e70b:8e00:7469:1700:3472:7a8a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5E9303A00E0; Fri, 18 Mar 2022 04:54:34 -0700 (PDT) From: IAB Chair Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EF4128EF-33FD-4CB6-BFC7-FEAB48B163C7" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 $3608.120.23.2.4$) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 12:54:30 +0100 Subject: IAB report to the community for IETF 113 Cc: IETF To: IETF Announcement List Message-Id: <67BFA398-C417-4DD8-AD79-97E561E39513@iab.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 11:54:41 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EF4128EF-33FD-4CB6-BFC7-FEAB48B163C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dear Colleagues, the IAB has uploaded its report for the IETF-113 meeting to the = proceedings in the datatracker. To access the full report, please see = here: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/materials/slides-113-ietf-sessa-i= ab-report-to-the-community-for-ietf-113 = In addition, I would like to highlight some important updates: New Independent Submission Editor (ISE): Eliot Lear ------------ The IAB appointed Eliot Lear as the new Independent Submission Editor = (ISE). Welcome Eliot and thanks for serving the community in this role! There was a very good set of candidates for this position and the IAB = would also like to thank all volunteers that were nominated and willing = to serve in this role! Adrian Farrel decided to step down after serving four years as in this = role. The IAB thanks Adrian for his service as the Independent = Submissions Editor (ISE) and his enthusiastic engagement in this role, = thereby supporting the IETF community to ensure that all voices can be = heard! RFC Editor Model (Version 3) ready for approval=20 ------------ The RFC Editor Future Development Program = (https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/rfcefdp/ = ) concluded its work and = handed draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model (RFC Editor Model (Version 3) to = the IAB for progression an Informational RFC on the IAB stream in early = February. After a four week community call, on 2022-03-09, the IAB = reviewed draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-12. With consideration of all = feedback in coordination with the program chairs, the document editor, = and the program itself recently draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-13 was = published that incorporates remaining editorial changes.=20 The final version of the new RFC Editor Model (Version 3) will be = approved and published together with three related documents in the the = IETF stream: draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter (IAB Charter Update for = RFC Editor Model), draft-rsalz-2028bis (Entities Involved in the IETF = Standards Process), and draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026 (RFC Series = Responsibility Change).=20 As part of the new RFC Editor Model (Version 3) = , the = IAB and IESG are tasked with appointing one chair each to the RFC Series = Working Group (RSWG). The IAB and IESG issued a joint call for = nominations/volunteers for the RSWG Chairs = on 2022-03-14. If you are interested or would like = to nominate someone, please send a message with the name and email = address of the nominee to execd@iab.org . The = nominations deadline is 2022-04-18. New IAB drafts: Report on Workshop on Analysing IETF Data (AID) and = draft-iab-path-signals-collaboration-00 ------------ A draft of the workshop report for last November's IAB workshop on = Analyzing IETF Data (AID) = has been submitted as = draft-iab-aid-workshop. Niels ten Oever will present this report at the = IABopen meeting on Thursday March 24, 13:00-14:00. The IAB adopted a new document for consideration for publication on the = IAB stream: draft-iab-path-signals-collaboration-00 (Considerations on = Application - Network Collaboration Using Path Signals). Before adoption = there was a community input call. Thanks to all who provided feedback! = Further feedback is of course welcome at any time! To provide more = comments on the document or the topic in general, please send mail = either to architecture-discuss@iab.org = , iab@iab.org , = or the authors directly! If you have any questions, comments, or concerns regarding the report or = anything else, please send a mail to iab@iab.org . = Or feel free to also just send me an email directly! Hope to see you all at IETF-113 either in person or online. Don=E2=80=99t = forget to join the IABopen meeting on Thursday! Best regards, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind IAB Chair On behalf of the IAB=20= --Apple-Mail=_EF4128EF-33FD-4CB6-BFC7-FEAB48B163C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Dear Colleagues,

the IAB has uploaded its report for the IETF-113 meeting to = the proceedings in the datatracker. To access the full report, please = see here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/materials/slides-113-i= etf-sessa-iab-report-to-the-community-for-ietf-113

In addition, I would like to highlight some important = updates:

New Independent = Submission Editor (ISE): Eliot Lear
------------
The IAB appointed Eliot = Lear as the new Independent Submission Editor (ISE). Welcome Eliot and = thanks for serving the community in this role!

There was a very good set of candidates = for this position and the IAB would also like to thank all volunteers = that were nominated and willing to serve in this role!

Adrian Farrel decided to = step down after serving four years as in this role. The IAB thanks = Adrian for his service as the Independent Submissions Editor (ISE) = and his enthusiastic engagement in this role, thereby = supporting the IETF community to ensure that all voices can be = heard!

RFC Editor Model (Version 3) ready for = approval
------------
The RFC Editor Future Development Program (https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/rfcefdp/) concluded= its work and handed draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model (RFC Editor Model (Version 3) to the IAB for progression = an Informational RFC on the IAB stream in early February. After a four = week community call, on 2022-03-09, the IAB reviewed draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-12. With consideration of all feedback in = coordination with the program chairs, the document editor, and the = program itself recently draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model-13 was published that incorporates remaining = editorial changes.

The final version of = the new RFC Editor Model (Version 3) will be approved and published = together with three related documents in the the IETF stream: = draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter (IAB Charter Update for RFC Editor = Model), draft-rsalz-2028bis (Entities Involved in the IETF Standards = Process), and draft-rosen-rfcefdp-update-2026 (RFC Series Responsibility = Change).

As part of the new RFC Editor Model (Version 3), the IAB and IESG are tasked with appointing = one chair each to the RFC Series Working Group (RSWG). The IAB and IESG issued a = joint call for nominations/volunteers for the RSWG = Chairs on = 2022-03-14. If you are interested or would like to nominate someone, = please send a message with the name and email address of the nominee = to execd@iab.org. The nominations deadline is = 2022-04-18.

New IAB drafts: Report = on Workshop on Analysing IETF Data (AID) and draft-iab-path-signals-collaboration-00
------------
A draft of the = workshop report for last November's IAB workshop on Analyzing IETF Data = (AID) has been submitted as = draft-iab-aid-workshop. Niels ten Oever will present this report at = the IABopen meeting on Thursday = March 24, 13:00-14:00.

The IAB adopted a new = document for consideration for publication on the IAB stream: = draft-iab-path-signals-collaboration-00 (Considerations on = Application - Network Collaboration Using Path Signals). = Before adoption there was a community input call. Thanks to all = who provided feedback! Further feedback is of course welcome at any = time! To provide more comments on the document or the topic in general, = please send mail either to architecture-discuss@iab.org, iab@iab.org, or the authors = directly!

If you have any questions, comments, or concerns regarding = the report or anything else, please send a mail to iab@iab.org. Or feel free to = also just send me an email directly!

Hope to see you all at IETF-113 either = in person or online. Don=E2=80=99t forget to join the IABopen meeting on = Thursday!

Best = regards,
Mirja K=C3=BChlewind
IAB = Chair

On behalf of the IAB
= --Apple-Mail=_EF4128EF-33FD-4CB6-BFC7-FEAB48B163C7-- From nobody Sun Mar 20 03:00:19 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D6483A0D5D for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 03:00:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id On-VS0Q2XdFe for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 03:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 992243A0D50 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 03:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 42248 invoked by uid 100); 20 Mar 2022 10:00:09 -0000 Date: 20 Mar 2022 09:59:47 -0000 Message-ID: <20220320095947.42247.qmail@submit.iecc.com> From: "John Levine" To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Messages from the ietf list for the week ending Sun Mar 20 06:00:02 2022 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 10:00:17 -0000 Count | Bytes | Who ------------+----------------+------- 23 ( 100%) | 541323 ( 100%) | Total 4 (17.4%) | 132555 (24.5%) | David Lloyd-Jones 3 (13.0%) | 138378 (25.6%) | Steve Crocker 2 ( 8.7%) | 70754 (13.1%) | vinton cerf 2 ( 8.7%) | 41025 ( 7.6%) | Michael StJohns 2 ( 8.7%) | 23277 ( 4.3%) | willi uebelherr 1 ( 4.3%) | 32050 ( 5.9%) | Samir Srivastava 1 ( 4.3%) | 20461 ( 3.8%) | IAB Chair 1 ( 4.3%) | 16931 ( 3.1%) | Toerless Eckert 1 ( 4.3%) | 13937 ( 2.6%) | Hannes Tschofenig 1 ( 4.3%) | 11899 ( 2.2%) | Tim Bray 1 ( 4.3%) | 10440 ( 1.9%) | Aaron Falk 1 ( 4.3%) | 8269 ( 1.5%) | Dave Crocker 1 ( 4.3%) | 8006 ( 1.5%) | Salz, Rich 1 ( 4.3%) | 6871 ( 1.3%) | touch@strayalpha.com 1 ( 4.3%) | 6470 ( 1.2%) | Ole Jacobsen From nobody Sun Mar 20 12:16:42 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B9E3A079F for ; 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Sun, 20 Mar 2022 12:16:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mu3Z/faWTd1Gw4xGvwMQPhDeF9BUCkdY/pAgLWeFpW4=; b=pJFNoP3q48pb3CR+grkR3PhHsb5fTSv8GXEJr/NDu1eAPk19AiBBCqR2+b0vNjdju6 KU2PZAFc7TXB+JNoyCGFjmBZuYVKWCWdEyF6FVCdWLTHbbpLwFLgFsbT2DHZbkkrfYOr uHtxT9V0hKjDUc5LZHZSHfZLcbAF8NHG04zYxJvjQ4x0BrmsmDYunjjUtne/gBOSQ0QB S1pshsQS/yuiNRXViHktsQowkRdLQtztOTN76Rq8X/LSUI/6IXwwB1ZMX3azWdu6g1og dPQz7Y0m1eD4D3hucrJ64iF3N7qi2SCUsi/SXQA6WWztzUjJlPH7zww++L3Fsd/FRMkC PZPg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532NnTWw8y/dn89n4PP9g3XZv1+R8uJaEvW2ScmesVsJSLl7F3OC 1TGsjLVTzy2mxCLWSrG+EvI25HgIhaJzCfYJuRQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwbnMPHmzfPzC5bqHbsUUeMGdkt4eEDOpddJt1bJ0k723segOBkfpCD+8V4xzyE6Bm8S4Q/ts13sMIBfNtcjcA= X-Received: by 2002:a81:351:0:b0:2e5:9cb9:8c44 with SMTP id 78-20020a810351000000b002e59cb98c44mr21394698ywd.250.1647803792933; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 12:16:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 15:15:59 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet To: vinton cerf Cc: David Lloyd-Jones , IRTF discuss , IETF discussion , ISOC Lia Kiessling , IGF governance , willi uebelherr , ISOC Internet Policy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bcc67805daab3736" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 19:16:39 -0000 --000000000000bcc67805daab3736 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" The OP gets a lot of the history wrong. But I don't think the established history is entirely correct either. It is a history given from a particular point of view which is not the only relevant point of view. The view from outside was never quite the same as the view from inside. And the US version of how the Internet was won tends to sound rather too much like white men bringing their benevolent gifts. The implication being that if the Internet is a gift of the US of A, it is only right and proper that the vision of the founders determine its future in perpetuity. My view of what happened is rather different. Basically, the Internet succeeded because it was the only technical proposal on the table that met the necessary conditions for becoming a global network. And the first and most important of those was local autonomy. So local autonomy was not a gift, it was a necessary condition for success. If we were to explore the counterfactual in which (D)ARPA did not fund Internet development, that might have affected the timing but AOL/CompuServe/MSN would have still faced the same fact that an open communication system will grow faster than closed and no government was going to allow a foreign company to establish a monopoly of email. We are currently engaged in what some are starting to call 'The Great Information War'. Had Putin's crew managed to succeed in their attempted coup on 2021/6/1, Trump would have disbanded NATO before the invasion of Ukraine. Fascism would have returned to Europe and likely have arrived in the US as well. The Internet was always at the center of the Great Information War. But it wasn't Trump's tweets that reached a national audience, it was the willingness of the establishment media to repeat them. And not just Fox News, but CNN, the NYT and Washington Post. Some people are asking how the Internet can be used to win the Great Information War. But that is to miss the real point which is how we stop the next fighting war breaking out. How we got to where we are is relevant only insofar as it informs our efforts to get to where we need to be. Telling falsehoods is a limited technique for controlling public opinion. In the 1920s the press barons discovered that they could control public opinion by setting the agenda, by choosing what issues were news. The civil rights movement finally succeeded 40 years later because it was able to successfully challenge the ability of the press to set the agenda. Today it is not the 'centralization' of the Web that is the real issue, it is the fact that a handful of individuals control the voting shares in the companies that set the agenda through curation of the dominant social media feeds. That is the power that must be challenged if the Internet is going to fulfill its promise as a technology of freedom. On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 8:00 AM vinton cerf wrote: > 1. Arpanet was never called "Darpanet" > 2. I don't think we ever "numbered" users since getting on the Arpanet was > mostly by having an account on a time-sharing computer at a university (or > research lab) that had an ARPA contract. > 3. "bangs" were at email level, not Arpanet (or Internet) level of > routing. The "bang" email addresses aided routing through application level > gateways. > 4. Bob Kahn, Dave Walden, Frank Heart and many others at BBN did the > Arpanet IMP design. The Arpanet Host-Host NCP effort was led by Steve > Crocker (Jon Postel and I and others helped) and stabilized enough to > support email in 1971 and a public demonstration in October 1972. The > Internet work started the next year in 1973. Since Internet was conceived > as a network of networks, you needed more than one network to make an > Internet. There were three to begin with: Arpanet, Packet Radio Net and > Packet Satellite Net, all funded by ARPA. > > On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 4:50 AM David Lloyd-Jones via InternetPolicy < > internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> Willi, >> >> You have shown us that you are full of good sentiments. Quite a lot of >> them. Very good ones. I assume that you know something about the start and >> development of the Internet but no such knowledge has found its way into >> your long post. >> . >> First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or so, the 'Net was a >> solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1945. It was made possible >> by the invention of packet-switching in the mid-1960 to 70s. Johnny Foster, >> JFK's science advisor in 1961, was the first person I know of to have done >> solid financing of the effort. Bush was working on wide-scale computer >> networking, along with many other things, when I met him in his >> utterly false "retirement" in Lexington, Mass. in 1976. This was well >> before your Reagan Administration. >> >> The original present "internet" was ARPAnet (on which I was user #300 in >> 1971). This was financed before it really existed by ARPA when that >> "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed around at random in the >> Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added that "D," for defence, >> to pretend compliance with the Mansfield Amendment. I worked on this on >> Congressional staff in 1969-71 and at MIT in '72. The D was tacked on in >> December '71 or January '72, I forget, but had been in the works ever since >> Mansfied, as Senator, had tried to prevent military money from corrupting >> civilian research. Unfortunately, civilian researchers cried piteously that >> they wanted to be corrupted. By then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan.... >> >> When the scalability of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem >> limited, -- all those !!! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the >> development of the present TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When >> Cerf later went to work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR >> department tub-thumped that he was "the" founder of "the" Internet. Many >> people seem to have believed this inanity. More recently this has been >> toned down to "a" founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switching, the >> key invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom Cerf >> studied as a university student. Their much later contribution to TCP/IP >> has certainly been useful. >> >> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi uebelherr via InternetPolicy < >> internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet >>> Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022 >>> >>> https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-calls-to-undermine-the-internet/ >>> >>> Dear friends, >>> >>> Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the Internet is >>> for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea. >>> >>> But the reality is different. The technical players acting today are not >>> interested in a free global communication of people, but in a >>> commercialization and capitalization of their needs for communication. >>> >>> This result did not come about by chance, but was already the essential >>> guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the USA under >>> Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection of local >>> Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, became a >>> privately and state organized system of interconnected star-systems, >>> "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". >>> >>> This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility to organize >>> access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we see today >>> that the system of a free global communication has turned into a field >>> of censorship and private control mania, organized by countries calling >>> themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized bullshit, >>> because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any directions >>> can lead to the same goal. >>> >>> The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human >>> communication "without borders" are those who call themselves >>> representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every diversity >>> with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil Rhodes is put >>> back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of communication that >>> is now elevated to the absolute. >>> >>> The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that does not >>> adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, as we saw >>> with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of the life of >>> an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power madness >>> it has developed into, where only private profit interests and state >>> delusions of control apply. >>> >>> The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the form of an >>> internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free access to >>> all people of our planet, independent of their social situation and >>> geographical position. >>> >>> That and only that is a "net of nets". >>> >>> with kind regards, willi >>> Asuncion, Paraguay >>> >>> >>> >>> in german ----------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Liebe freunde, >>> >>> Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf hingewiesen, "the >>> Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee. >>> >>> Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden technischen >>> Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der Menschen >>> interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und Kapitalisierung >>> ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation. >>> >>> Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war bereits zu >>> Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA unter >>> Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the Inter-connection of local >>> Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, wurde zu einem >>> privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen Sternsystemen, >>> "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems". >>> >>> Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, nach >>> beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu organisieren. Und >>> wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen >>> Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn >>> entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich "der Westen" >>> nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten Schwachsinn, >>> weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit beliebige >>> Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen. >>> >>> Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien >>> menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als >>> Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede >>> Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form des >>> Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch gestellt. Die >>> Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die nun zum >>> absoluten Mass erhoben wird. >>> >>> Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das sich nicht >>> an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, wie wir es >>> bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der Lebensphase eines >>> Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster kleingeistigem >>> Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private Profitinteressen >>> und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten. >>> >>> Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation in Form >>> eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen Menschen >>> unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig von ihrer >>> sozialen Lage und geografischen Position. >>> >>> Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze". >>> >>> mit lieben gruessen, willi >>> Asuncion, Paraguay >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To manage your Internet Society subscriptions >>> or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at >>> https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login >>> and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. >>> - >>> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: >>> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> To manage your Internet Society subscriptions >> or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at >> https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login >> and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. >> - >> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: >> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ >> > --000000000000bcc67805daab3736 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The= OP gets a lot of the history wrong. But I don't think the established = history is entirely correct either. It is a history given from a particular= point of view which is not the only relevant point of view.

The view from outside was never quite t= he same as the view from inside. And the US version of how the Internet was= won tends to sound rather too much like white men bringing their benevolen= t gifts. The implication being that if the Internet is a gift of the US of = A, it is only right and proper that the vision of the founders determine it= s future in perpetuity.

M= y view of what happened is rather different. Basically, the Internet succee= ded because it was the only technical proposal on the table that met the ne= cessary conditions for becoming a global network. And the first and most im= portant of those was local autonomy. So local autonomy was not a gift, it w= as a necessary condition for success.

If we were to explore the counterfactual in which (D)ARPA did = not fund Internet development, that might have affected the timing but AOL/= CompuServe/MSN would have still faced the same fact that an open communicat= ion system will grow faster than closed and no government was going to allo= w a foreign company to establish a monopoly of email.

We are currently engaged in what some are starting to = call 'The Great Information War'. Had Putin's crew managed to s= ucceed in their attempted coup on 2021/6/1, Trump would=C2=A0have disbanded= NATO before the invasion of Ukraine. Fascism would have returned to Europe= and likely have arrived in the US as well.

The Internet was always at the center of the Great Inf= ormation War. But it wasn't Trump's tweets that reached a national = audience, it was the willingness of the establishment media to repeat them.= And not just Fox News, but CNN, the NYT and Washington Post.

Some people are asking how the Interne= t can be used to win the Great Information War. But that is to miss the rea= l point which is how we stop the next fighting war breaking out.

How we got to where we are is relevant only i= nsofar as it informs our efforts to get to where we need to be.

Telling falsehoods is a limited tech= nique for controlling public opinion. In the 1920s the press barons discove= red that they could control public opinion by setting the agenda, by choosi= ng what issues were news. The civil rights movement finally succeeded 40 ye= ars later because it was able to successfully challenge the ability of the = press to set the agenda.

= Today it is not the 'centralization' of the Web that is the real is= sue, it is the fact that a handful of individuals control the voting shares= in the companies that set the agenda through curation of the dominant soci= al media feeds. That is the power that must be challenged if the Internet i= s going to fulfill its promise as a technology of freedom.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 8:00 A= M vinton cerf <vgcerf@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
1. Arpanet was never called "Darpanet"
2. I don'= t think we ever "numbered" users since getting on the Arpanet was= mostly by having an account on a time-sharing computer at a university (or= research lab) that had an ARPA contract.=C2=A0
3. "bangs" were= at email level, not Arpanet (or Internet) level of routing. The "bang= " email addresses aided routing through application level gateways.=C2= =A0
4. Bob Kahn, Dave Walden, Frank Heart and many others at BBN did the = Arpanet IMP design. The Arpanet Host-Host NCP effort was led by Steve Crock= er (Jon Postel and I and others helped) and stabilized enough to support em= ail=C2=A0in 1971 and a public demonstration in October 1972. The Internet w= ork started the next year in 1973. Since Internet was conceived as a networ= k of networks, you needed more than one network to make an Internet. There = were three to begin with: Arpanet, Packet Radio Net and Packet Satellite Ne= t, all funded by ARPA.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 4:50 AM David Lloyd-J= ones via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote:
Willi,<= br>
You have=C2=A0shown us that you are full of good sentiments. Quite a= lot of them. Very good ones. I=C2=A0assume that you know something about t= he=C2=A0start and development of the Internet but no such knowledge has fou= nd its way into your long post.
.
First proposed by Bacon in the fift= eenth century or so, the=C2=A0'Net was a solid policy proposal made by = Vannevar Bush in 1945. It was made possible by the invention of packet-swit= ching in the mid-1960 to 70s. Johnny Foster, JFK's science advisor in 1= 961, was the first person I know of to have done solid financing of the eff= ort.=C2=A0 Bush was working on wide-scale computer networking, along with m= any other things, when I met him in his utterly=C2=A0false "retirement= " in Lexington, Mass. in 1976.=C2=A0This was well before your Reagan A= dministration.

The original present "internet" was ARPAnet=C2=A0 (on whi= ch I was user #300 in 1971). This was financed before it really existed by = ARPA when that "Agency" was more-or-less a slush fund passed arou= nd at random in the Pentagon. It continued as DARPAnet after they added tha= t "D," for defence, to pretend compliance with the Mansfield Amen= dment. I worked on this on Congressional staff in 1969-71 and at MIT in = 9;72. The D was tacked on in December '71 or January '72, I forget,= but had been in the works ever since Mansfied, as Senator, had tried to pr= event military money from corrupting civilian research. Unfortunately, civi= lian researchers=C2=A0cried piteously that they wanted to be corrupted. By = then, Mansfied was ambassador to Japan....=C2=A0

When the scalabilit= y of the internetted nets, DARPAnet, began to seem limited, -- all those !!= ! "bangs," -- its growth was smoothed by the development of the p= resent TCP/IP, credited to Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf. When Cerf later went to = work for MCI, a hapless little phone company, their PR department tub-thump= ed that he was "the"=C2=A0founder of "the" Internet. Ma= ny people seem to have believed this inanity. More recently this has been t= oned down to "a" founder of the Internet. In fact packet-switchin= g, the key invention, was largely the work of Lenny Kleinrock, under whom C= erf studied as a university student. Their=C2=A0much later contribution to = TCP/IP has certainly been useful.=C2=A0

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 13:07, willi = uebelherr via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> wrote:
=

Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet
Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022
https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-c= alls-to-undermine-the-internet/

Dear friends,

Andrew Sullivan rightly pointed out in his text that "the Internet is =
for everyone". Absolutely right in the idea.

But the reality is different. The technical players acting today are not interested in a free global communication of people, but in a
commercialization and capitalization of their needs for communication.

This result did not come about by chance, but was already the essential guiding principle at the beginning by the government of the USA under
Ronald Reagan. The original concept of "the inter-connection of local =
Net-works", which is necessarily based on local networks, became a privately and state organized system of interconnected star-systems,
"the inter-connection of private Star-Systems".

This interconnection of star-systems creates the possibility to organize access and exclusion according to arbitrary criteria. And we see today
that the system of a free global communication has turned into a field
of censorship and private control mania, organized by countries calling themselves "the West". Already the naming points to organized bul= lshit,
because the planet is a sphere and not a disk and thus any directions
can lead to the same goal.

The actors of this fragmentation and breaking of a free human
communication "without borders" are those who call themselves representatives of a "free world", but in fact trample every dive= rsity
with military boots. Every form of racial mania a'la Cecil Rhodes is pu= t
back on the table. Lying and hypocrisy is the form of communication that is now elevated to the absolute.

The idea of telecommunication in the form of an Internet that does not
adhere to private or governmental or geographical boundaries, as we saw with Jonathan Postel, was destroyed at the very beginning of the life of an Internet. Today we see what a monster of small-minded power madness
it has developed into, where only private profit interests and state
delusions of control apply.

The alternative always remains. A telecommunication in the form of an
internet, which rests on local networks and thus enables free access to all people of our planet, independent of their social situation and
geographical position.

That and only that is a "net of nets".

with kind regards, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

in german -----------------------------------------------------------

Liebe freunde,

Andrew Sullivan hat zu Recht in seinem Text darauf hingewiesen, "the <= br> Internet is for everyone". Absolut richtig in der Idee.

Aber die Wirklichkeit sieht anders aus. Die heute agierenden technischen Akteure sind nicht an einer freien globalen Kommunikation der Menschen
interessiert, sondern an einer Kommerzialisierung und Kapitalisierung
ihrer Beduerfnisse nach Kommunikation.

Dieses Resultat ist nicht zufaellig entstanden, sondern war bereits zu
Anfang das wesentliche Leitmotiv durch die Regierung der USA unter
Ronald Reagan. Das urspruengliche Konzept "the Inter-connection of loc= al
Net-works", das ja notwendig auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht, wurde zu ein= em
privat und staatlich organisierten System von verbundenen Sternsystemen, "the inter-connection of private Star-Systems".

Diese Verbindung von Stern-Systemen schafft die Moeglichkeit, nach
beliebigsten Kriterien den Zugang und Ausschluss zu organisieren. Und
wir sehen heute, dass sich das System einer freien globalen
Kommunikation zu einem Feld der Zensur und privatem Kontrollwahn
entwickelt hat, das von Laendern organisiert wird, die sich "der Weste= n"
nennen. Schon die Namensgebung deutet auf organisierten Schwachsinn,
weil der Planet eine Kugel und keine Scheibe ist und damit beliebige
Richtungen zum gleichen Ziel fuehren koennen.

Die Akteure dieser Zersplitterung und Zerbrechung einer freien
menschlichen Kommunikation "ohne Grenzen" sind jene, die sich als=
Vertreter einer "freien Welt" bezeichnen, tatsaechlich aber jede =
Diversitaet mit militaerischen Stiefeln zertrampeln. Jede Form des
Rassenwahns a'la Cecil Rhodes wird wieder auf den Tisch gestellt. Die <= br> Luege und Heuchelei ist diejenige Form der Kommunikation, die nun zum
absoluten Mass erhoben wird.

Die Idee einer Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet, das sich nicht an private oder staatliche oder geografische Grenzen haelt, wie wir es
bei Jonathan Postel sahen, wurde schon zu Beginn der Lebensphase eines
Internet zerstoert. Heute sehen wir, zu welchem Monster kleingeistigem
Machtwahns es sich entwickelt hat, wo nur noch private Profitinteressen und staatlicher Kontrollwahn gelten.

Die Alternative bleibt immer existent. Eine Telekommunikation in Form
eines internet, das auf lokalen Netzwerken ruht und so allen Menschen
unseres Planeten den freien Zugang ermoeglicht, unabhaengig von ihrer
sozialen Lage und geografischen Position.

Das und nur das ist ein "Netz der Netze".

mit lieben gruessen, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

_______________________________________________
To manage your Internet Society subscriptions
or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Log= in
and go to the Preferences tab within your profile.
-
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/=

_______________________________________________
To manage your Internet Society subscriptions
or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at
https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Log= in
and go to the Preferences tab within your profile.
-
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/=

--000000000000bcc67805daab3736-- From nobody Sun Mar 20 14:05:17 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3D103A1010 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 14:05:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=riseup.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bN5BgQUY6wrU for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 14:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2AF33A0E50 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 14:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fews1.riseup.net (fews1-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.riseup.net", Issuer "R3" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4KM9HZ0n1XzDr3D; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 14:04:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1647810298; bh=TG7p2/Tw8A4sC9zTEW/488HOHdhFdgKcyzE9zsr8mbk=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=Tl8B2rWaAryFbe9G/RA5KbyuFaVHYWlrujdOLiukdt6V0vTQLkM+cyu0it2aExlTH YIuN+AQwRzaCIE91kFLUNQwlGN7nE1msXIQPEGklZxRCWDGZ13hC18BU04pGjLnPBp V/mzElEwuM6VEa4/77M6Fr+xQT9ZkO3b01F6Le+E= X-Riseup-User-ID: EE443B63AC89437963A530C04E01CAC96C1152630ABC2D1CDE2E16387F5A8DEB Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fews1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KM9HX4v7Wz5vwZ; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 14:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <6d050ae4-f037-872e-d039-c463cbaaa6ed@riseup.net> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 18:04:54 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet Content-Language: en-US To: ISOC Internet Policy Cc: IRTF discuss , IETF discussion , Phillip Hallam-Baker References: From: willi uebelherr In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 21:05:14 -0000 Dear Phillip, I agree with you on much, but disagree on 2 statements. 1) Your reference to Putin and Trump has nothing to do with what we call the Internet. 2) Your last paragraph is contradictory. "Today it is not the 'centralization' of the Web that is the real issue, it is the fact that a handful of individuals control the voting shares in the companies that set the agenda through curation of the dominant social media feeds. That is the power that must be challenged if the Internet is going to fulfill its promise as a technology of freedom." Centralization always rests on private interests that need centralization to dominate. Earlier you write: "And the first and most important of those was local autonomy. So local autonomy was not a gift, it was a necessary condition for success." And this as part of the only proposal? True to the laws of logic, this contradiction cannot be resolved, because we are moving in different areas. The "local autonomy" was postulated only by the few and had no influence on the many, nor on those who determined its progress. Today we are in a situation where we have to reconnect to this desired "local autonomy" if we want a peaceful and free future. The language we use to connect globally, here the IP protocol, is global. The realization of transport and processing of data is local. with thanks and kind regards, willi Asuncion, Paraguay Am 20.03.2022 um 16:15 schrieb Phillip Hallam-Baker: > The OP gets a lot of the history wrong. But I don't think the established > history is entirely correct either. It is a history given from a particular > point of view which is not the only relevant point of view. > > The view from outside was never quite the same as the view from inside. And > the US version of how the Internet was won tends to sound rather too much > like white men bringing their benevolent gifts. The implication being that > if the Internet is a gift of the US of A, it is only right and proper that > the vision of the founders determine its future in perpetuity. > > My view of what happened is rather different. Basically, the Internet > succeeded because it was the only technical proposal on the table that met > the necessary conditions for becoming a global network. And the first and > most important of those was local autonomy. So local autonomy was not a > gift, it was a necessary condition for success. > > If we were to explore the counterfactual in which (D)ARPA did not fund > Internet development, that might have affected the timing but > AOL/CompuServe/MSN would have still faced the same fact that an open > communication system will grow faster than closed and no government was > going to allow a foreign company to establish a monopoly of email. > > > We are currently engaged in what some are starting to call 'The Great > Information War'. Had Putin's crew managed to succeed in their attempted > coup on 2021/6/1, Trump would have disbanded NATO before the invasion of > Ukraine. Fascism would have returned to Europe and likely have arrived in > the US as well. > > The Internet was always at the center of the Great Information War. But it > wasn't Trump's tweets that reached a national audience, it was the > willingness of the establishment media to repeat them. And not just Fox > News, but CNN, the NYT and Washington Post. > > Some people are asking how the Internet can be used to win the Great > Information War. But that is to miss the real point which is how we stop > the next fighting war breaking out. > > > How we got to where we are is relevant only insofar as it informs our > efforts to get to where we need to be. > > Telling falsehoods is a limited technique for controlling public opinion. > In the 1920s the press barons discovered that they could control public > opinion by setting the agenda, by choosing what issues were news. The civil > rights movement finally succeeded 40 years later because it was able to > successfully challenge the ability of the press to set the agenda. > > Today it is not the 'centralization' of the Web that is the real issue, it > is the fact that a handful of individuals control the voting shares in the > companies that set the agenda through curation of the dominant social media > feeds. That is the power that must be challenged if the Internet is going > to fulfill its promise as a technology of freedom. > From nobody Mon Mar 21 00:35:51 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB5B23A18C1 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 00:35:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R8DNe0K0kXp7 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 00:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00:e000:2bb::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61D283A18B9 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 00:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (dhcp-885d.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.136.93]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D41CA1F458; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 07:35:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 0E13C1A01BF; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 03:35:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Phillip Hallam-Baker , vinton cerf , IRTF discuss , David Lloyd-Jones , IETF discussion , ISOC Lia Kiessling , IGF governance , willi uebelherr , ISOC Internet Policy Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet In-reply-to: References: Comments: In-reply-to Phillip Hallam-Baker message dated "Sun, 20 Mar 2022 15:15:59 -0400." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7.1; GNU Emacs 26.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 03:35:25 -0400 Message-ID: <554877.1647848125@dooku> Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 07:35:40 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > Today it is not the 'centralization' of the Web that is the real issue, > it is the fact that a handful of individuals control the voting shares > in the companies that set the agenda through curation of the dominant > social media feeds. That is the power that must be challenged if the > Internet is going to fulfill its promise as a technology of freedom. I agree that this is the challenge. I wish that I could pay a fee and get access to the social media APIs and to run my own algorithms (or hire some else's directly). Then I realize that in being able/willing to pay that fee, that I myself am invoking a privilege that not everyone might have. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGzBAEBCgAdFiEEow/1qDVgAbWL2zxYcAKuwszYgEMFAmI4KrwACgkQcAKuwszY gEPI3wv+MHVVVko2zSm1noEqDtdIR4Fk47qFY1c5qUcY2PUxExga9781svbBOIPi 7M84PuC2C6jN27imWquun3lZ5o9NdExTG+hq9wClMqgoWYe/jZezac6+tgVBFHMA /LNAmaQtpnfL8cPalgk8G8a1d7Tu0juWOjrj1+KOfwrSM9R/0u/mVks0PKr2bNOj TyrVZqEGVz5Ae4iGejxuvsZci9Nu85VlZCFqRci4geS9ZONccgp/SslqE05ggti0 cmcC+O4rZKDBsGsopax8H979QJbUvFaW3AQy2ZqriHWj1S55uG4q3iuj/uy61DtZ neRVW40aWfUdnNXIFKfQV1szK1/KtbRKDqfDVo70fJEPXMDBYMuZycLFWdZzHBWv cLqxtxHW9PEEzj8Hg+bXLNt/qyhFj6yF41Mn9UVe9jsqSxqFRPbYHNkF3xeSVlvF SFWCof8dlnjayKrjWcYCc32ZAV3gdyYDAdQF9hFmG5+lD5+Clf0KUHM1p6gzODUh 6KRscY6S =LlEs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Mar 21 06:15:55 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D973A0490 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 06:15:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id siKn8vIe1ui9 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 06:15:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x535.google.com (mail-ed1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3712C3A0029 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 06:15:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x535.google.com with SMTP id w25so17750124edi.11 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 06:15:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=NL7rmOxGr4ISwFm5CrwKGJ5jy5Uq0cwowp5yUId/bTo=; b=RsPD+zbhITBFxx6XRWgArz82lPXhD5mRhL+pAszWj3ygZ3wBSoYEgKDkW7Eca63SFs boXWxXobtgXRbvSonwuRI+XnP7Mo+ym0/dWOKzr2EWYEZBLFNQfHb2pihT2n6BgmTvxI t04fkwJ+ry+hNyKlttj/tPdg7yRnAFA1JPMdBloqeRd/R6RN+iMqH9ReMgGZXzcHAmXY XapZkQnVfL+MGuhOUr3QhH2G1EobVVB/TOT3JzaTTCdATVywO8Dxf5j317tmsnBGo1l6 CtJkfIvBFJirU0dYe1oXF/aRk3GCjEqb5de8QhqrcCApc7aQ61CGFQETrmKkr0dydzIA j71A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=NL7rmOxGr4ISwFm5CrwKGJ5jy5Uq0cwowp5yUId/bTo=; b=TNRbwrZeX8qsZ6IYFqUScpFT/FrnfQMAEcrhLqJc7TJ4oRREjjvKE/PeEsjZEVGX3l UAGPgIvYbHESViqORMJ/DoK6BqWn016u9fOQgWhnrZZqVtOsTOvk5YSX6JR4SH4S2Jqe iw09m2uZ8K6iCaAcj9PiFFSigHi9dGG++zyT9TkmSqZJlOyaGYMEhqbC+j03ujCCFMz/ i57r3/KYMWfMHBm+Sll4+RgAW5XbmDDUP+OZdpEn620KLkMOmKKHkZKXIz2RnrJCcbaL jHRMMQPzNEi0FhLIArWxdWsIh9YAGAUC//rd0slx09H7cClTVRgLFJymL/yAHPXihqO/ n2Tg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532oSIiuQf+LDHhuJa9y1VQwakiaBUJsf3t0txfcCmbWJuOB1FaU QnPGQmiESz9PYxHk3P84FVyoZzt4zS+D4fi3t1obE/rGNx0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyc9MfzVccBtFagY3yAyahmkzW/4C9WInEZkN0vL3qNtcZoTYjwRLv7zJMd9HlaKI5p4U7szWjbhohyjmsuhGs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:442:b0:416:14b7:4d55 with SMTP id p2-20020a056402044200b0041614b74d55mr22542432edw.183.1647868544854; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 06:15:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Dave Taht Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 08:15:32 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: occasionally I give a fun talk To: IETF Discussion Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 13:15:52 -0000 targetted outside our universe, using new analogies... and in this case, no slides, starting with a basic explanation of how voice used to work over a circuit switched network, moving forward to today, in 30 minutes. There's more than a few laughs in here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DTWViGcBlnm0&t=3D120s In general I really wish more policymakers and the public deeply understood less-flawed analogies about the internet. -- https://www.patreon.com/posts/64073650 Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC From nobody Mon Mar 21 10:58:36 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 039F23A11D8 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 10:58:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.711 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.711 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (public key: not available)" header.d=isoc.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nCNVRKWRo00v for ; 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I made the announcement in the message available at https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/mbkvvN21pds8cilTKSBnzbBBjF8/. I have not so far been overwhelmed with nominations, and one nomination declined to accept because of another commitment. If you are interested in performing this service for the community, I urge you to put your name in. This call for nominations closes at 23:59 UTC on 25 March 2022. Please share the call as widely as you like. Please direct replies with nominations directly to me at this address (not to the list!). Thanks very much. Best regards, Andrew -- Andrew Sullivan President & CEO, Internet Society sullivan@isoc.org +1 416 731 1261 From nobody Mon Mar 21 19:15:40 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2A0F3A1CBD for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 19:15:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UvXmFwPwv2ex for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 19:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52f.google.com (mail-ed1-x52f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA4063A1CB6 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 19:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id w4so19996398edc.7 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 19:15:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wAK7kRMwP4fohJDry727alDGgGy7jUEQ4lWEmQTnMDQ=; b=J+VKgwwqKJi9gCkvIDpf4IWo7prApCW2rVeO7QT9ozFrlRP9uPVM1VmTiJkonaDndp rcfRZjDKQ+8ZcyWRDvg/Fmi0DlvzhSDlCLDEZ5SN1td2PzKwqDZol5n7UOPkNAVKwWwG Ptk+JsdIYbHBzvZdS9TAWu1mAE0zwMpnWsEl5L2B6f2GrLYr9mB+uUrcIPT4TFXx5JC2 FGCp/jKrwfO9bmFV4nEa2HDyCYBBj9Mz2Q4DX13vzp/dSV2QYhoNHTbz2Zqjm1esKJvw 8UdeIQDMPAbGrhIHxIof5bP3aihXsOnu45UMxOxEeEWZa1MOswFzInN51STw8Z6Hr0ID zsDg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wAK7kRMwP4fohJDry727alDGgGy7jUEQ4lWEmQTnMDQ=; b=KbgWYiCZNOnrtK2HOMRRGQZxdUkb1GMJfhVbUtS3FLUH8K1OYtnEZEpEqS8rUitdsG xVsuBJ7MGc0uDuTE4/XTrcczovscrXbMc9KKdKR909wAs7AePcWwBYsH+a4GxiEwYvW8 qsp3iLJImYNehX9zg587ClStq4Q8T6ZW1ebFEpvyxbgC++pc1P6YiyHHOSwek8Pkx3pH 8c0GvGfZeY36UcGVInrYb5lfciHUz4atjO/06IlgPjylzoBPx5OgDMmJYgJNftziIHxs xyNeVMF86FQnTkPpXYdHPO9NV+XuebypxIg+Y6Xxkk9rSYvgLGCm6AzYbgLm7CE8DDoe JXEw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5339yQyOmMj+AKEQh+7WjL1wZKAqzVCussZAplRcNEAPyw/z4urJ 0VzbTVUuBKsSvh7KPbC8Quz25ATPwWfiFymfLKM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwFqpoJTixpfzrSAGS2iuJH4/d7XwNUH2ctwORMJXsiA91E4V70vWIYaVRwGT8Fgo1hAv2zpFytWd1N3ViArQU= X-Received: by 2002:a50:d949:0:b0:418:ecfe:8c25 with SMTP id u9-20020a50d949000000b00418ecfe8c25mr25977624edj.156.1647915331771; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 19:15:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7F9B5DC4-56C2-4F10-BCFF-19EB5DF3C240@strayalpha.com> In-Reply-To: <7F9B5DC4-56C2-4F10-BCFF-19EB5DF3C240@strayalpha.com> From: David Lloyd-Jones Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 22:14:51 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet To: "touch@strayalpha.com" Cc: willi uebelherr , IRTF discuss , ISOC Internet Policy , ISOC Lia Kiessling , IETF discussion , IGF governance Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f85f3c05dac52f19" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 02:15:39 -0000 --000000000000f85f3c05dac52f19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joe, Thanks, -dlj. On Wed, 16 Mar 2022 at 00:25, touch@strayalpha.com wrote: > (List admin hat off) > > Others have commented on various parts, but to address one not yet > addressed: > > > On Mar 15, 2022, at 1:49 AM, David Lloyd-Jones < > david.lloydjones@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Willi, > > ... > > First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or so, > > IMO, Chappe should get most of the credit. I found a vague reference to > Bacon and the idea, but nothing specific (if you can point us to a > citation, it=E2=80=99d be sincerely appreciated). > > > the 'Net was a solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1945. > > In =E2=80=9CAs we may think,=E2=80=9D, he proposed something more akin to= the Web (i.e., a > cross-linked database). In fact, he said "It consists of a desk, and whil= e > it can presumably be operated from a distance, it is primarily the piece = of > furniture at which he works.=E2=80=9D - which is the opposite of =E2=80= =9Cinformation at a > distance=E2=80=9D that is the core concept of networking. All the example= s are of > people creating their own encyclopedia, which misses the collaborative > nature of the net. > > > It was made possible by the invention of packet-switching in the > mid-1960 to 70s. > > =E2=80=A6 > > In fact packet-switching, the key invention, was largely the work of > > Paul Baran and Donald Davies. > > > Lenny Kleinrock, under whom Cerf studied as a university student. > > , who (Len) made significant and key contributions to queuing theory, > laying the theoretic foundations for what became packet switching, and > which also had (and continues to have) many other uses at the time. Also > important foundational work on the ARPAnet. > > But I haven=E2=80=99t seen him credited with *inventing* packet switching= , though. > > It=E2=80=99s also worth noting that Postel was a student at UCLA at the s= ame time, > though his PhD advisor was Dave Farber, who was at UC Irvine at the time. > The two found a loophole that a PhD advisor in the UC system had to come > from somewhere in the UC system, but not necessarily at the same school a= s > the student. > > Corrections from the gallery welcome, of course. > > Joe --000000000000f85f3c05dac52f19 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Joe,
Thanks,
-dlj.

On Wed, 16 Mar 2022 at 00:2= 5, touch@strayalpha.com <touch@strayalpha.com> wrote:
(List admin hat of= f)

Others have commented on various parts, but to address one not yet addresse= d:

> On Mar 15, 2022, at 1:49 AM, David Lloyd-Jones <david.lloydjones@gmail.com= > wrote:
>
> Willi,
> ...
> First proposed by Bacon in the fifteenth century or so,

IMO, Chappe should get most of the credit. I found a vague reference to Bac= on and the idea, but nothing specific (if you can point us to a citation, i= t=E2=80=99d be sincerely appreciated).

> the 'Net was a solid policy proposal made by Vannevar Bush in 1945= .

In =E2=80=9CAs we may think,=E2=80=9D, he proposed something more akin to t= he Web (i.e., a cross-linked database). In fact, he said "It consists = of a desk, and while it can presumably be operated from a distance, it is p= rimarily the piece of furniture at which he works.=E2=80=9D - which is the = opposite of =E2=80=9Cinformation at a distance=E2=80=9D that is the core co= ncept of networking. All the examples are of people creating their own ency= clopedia, which misses the collaborative nature of the net.

> It was made possible by the invention of packet-switching in the mid-1= 960 to 70s.
> =E2=80=A6
>=C2=A0 In fact packet-switching, the key invention, was largely the wor= k of

Paul Baran and Donald Davies.

> Lenny Kleinrock, under whom Cerf studied as a university student.

, who (Len) made significant and key contributions to queuing theory, layin= g the theoretic foundations for what became packet switching, and which als= o had (and continues to have) many other uses at the time. Also important f= oundational work on the ARPAnet.

But I haven=E2=80=99t seen him credited with *inventing* packet switching, = though.

It=E2=80=99s also worth noting that Postel was a student at UCLA at the sam= e time, though his PhD advisor was Dave Farber, who was at UC Irvine at the= time. The two found a loophole that a PhD advisor in the UC system had to = come from somewhere in the UC system, but not necessarily at the same schoo= l as the student.

Corrections from the gallery welcome, of course.

Joe
--000000000000f85f3c05dac52f19-- From nobody Mon Mar 21 21:46:30 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 469473A02BB for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 21:46:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=riseup.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gb65RhmwNF2h for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 21:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01DC33A0122 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 21:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fews1.riseup.net (fews1-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.riseup.net", Issuer "R3" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4KMzTV1p9kzDq9W; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 21:46:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1647924382; bh=OgW+bFLw1AdUkDVp4/GLgpUNlsF3HU1k4AB9xEcRmzk=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:Cc:In-Reply-To:From; b=pv0v5nlU786iz1BSwys1CLJCdiVYwyR9rzMdmap8GvvF73q8nIPIDwgzfn9sn6U2K qm1yA12BEjPf3j5CrxIr2q5VJ/cdarsakMEk85AjcDLgu4F3i1TesqDji1CUcniRgX ykM0zS31TrR4ZRyafNA+1cr9LAZWzLU+2ACujIbk= X-Riseup-User-ID: DD145375FF284A6788432239EA11FCE55E98D563CB95975BE5F68F11D02DF1F1 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fews1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KMzTQ4lptz5w6J; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <6be7d18d-9dde-80eb-7a53-9b306ab18f6f@riseup.net> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 01:46:15 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] You may find my most recent op ed on geopolitics and the Internet for The Hill newspaper interesting Content-Language: en-US To: ISOC Internet Policy References: From: willi uebelherr Cc: R C , IETF discussion , IRTF discuss In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 04:46:28 -0000 Geopolitics and the internet Roger J. Cochetti, 19.03.2022 https://thehill.com/opinion/technology/598882-geopolitics-and-the-internet Dear Roger, I have expanded the CC address space to include IRTF and IETF because I think it is important for them, at least for IRTF. Your focus is on private actors realizing their interests through government actors. In contrast, the focus is on the people who live in their communities, which are spread all over our planet. You talk about nations in your text, but you really mean state constructs. I know that in the regions that call themselves the "West" the communities no longer have any significance. Historically it was different and corresponded to reality: people live in communities and not in administrative or ruling structures. So if we want to talk about an Internet that is for "everyone", or "from the people, for the people", we need a different focus. In your text I don't find any approach for a positive perspective. Don't you see one? Or don't you want one? "Although it's a little daunting to explore long term Internet geopolitical trends ..." No, it is not "daunting", it is necessary. No matter what the situation. A peaceful planet can only be created by connecting people and making them independent from private or governmental connections. with kind regards, willi Asuncion, Paraguay original in german -------------------------------------------------- Lieber Roger, ich habe den CC-Adressraum um IRTF und IETF erweitert, weil ich denke, dass es fuer sie, zumindest fuer IRTF, wichtig ist. Dein Fokus richtet sich auf private Akteure, die ihre Interessen ueber die staatlichen Akteure realisieren. Dem gegenueber steht der Fokus auf die Menschen, die in ihren Gemeinden leben, die ueberall auf unserem Planeten verteilt sind. Du sprichst in deinem Text von Nationen, meinst aber tatsaechlich die Staatskonstrukte. Ich weiss, dass wir in den Regionen, die sich als der "Westen" bezeichnen, die Gemeinden keine Bedeutung mehr haben. Historisch war das anders und entsprach der Wirklichkeit: Die Menschen leben in Gemeinden und nicht in Verwaltungs- oder Herrschafts-Strukturen. Wenn wir also von einem Internet sprechen wollen, das fuer "everyone" sein soll, oder "from the people, for the people", dann brauchen wir einen anderen Fokus. In deinem Text finde ich keinen Ansatz fuer eine positive Perspektive. Siehst du keine? Oder willst du keine? "Although it’s a little daunting to explore long term Internet geopolitical trends .." Nein, es ist nicht "daunting", es ist notwendig. Egal, in welcher Situation auch immer. Ein friedlicher Planet kann nur dadurch entstehen, dass die Menschen sich verbinden und sie unabhaengig werden von privaten oder staatlichen Verbindungen. mit lieben gruessen, willi Asuncion, Paraguay Am 21.03.2022 um 09:47 schrieb R C via InternetPolicy: > Although it’s a little daunting to explore long term Internet geopolitical > trends in the midst of a violent military conflict, it is nonetheless very > important to understand the larger Internet geopolitical environment. > (Please note that for anyone who has devoted their life to this topic, this > is only an op Ed, limited to a few hundred words and relevant to readers > generally interested in American politics.) > > Roger Cochetti From nobody Tue Mar 22 02:57:44 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2D813A0D79; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 02:57:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ehdqd5eHQ67V; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 02:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00:e000:2bb::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C97023A0D71; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 02:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:8273:5eb7:1d0c:7402]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6A2C1F458; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 09:57:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id F256F1A01C2; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 05:57:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF cc: IESG , IRTF Discuss , WG Chairs , IETF Discussion , 113 attendees <113attendees@ietf.org> Subject: Re: HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call for participation In-reply-to: References: Comments: In-reply-to Spencer Dawkins at IETF message dated "Tue, 22 Mar 2022 00:29:18 +0100." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7.1; GNU Emacs 26.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 10:57:21 +0100 Message-ID: <742921.1647943041@dooku> Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 09:57:33 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > I'd like for the IESG to think a bit about how the IETF can use HotRFC > more effectively. Most of the work behind HotRFC has been done by > people who weren't on the IESG, so I'm talking about making sure that > we don't forget to think about when to schedule it, who should be > hosting it, and how to publicize it - given that, the rest of HotRFC is > easy. This was my first HotRFC. I have mostly chosen to take that time as away/me-time. But, it worked out for me, and I joined in person. I think that the best part of HotRFC is that the time is limited, and that no questions are permitted. This avoids any kind of debate, and really forces presenters to focus on their key message. The lack of debate likely also lowers the barrier: if you know you can't get attacked in the mic line, it may be less intimidating. I tried the HotRFC last time, via gather.town, with the recorded videos and questions on the floor. It's entirely a different thing, and I think that actually, it is usefully complementary. I will note that *DISPATCH is also become more of a thing. While previously we often had a 1st non-WG forming BOF followed by ML and charter discussions, we now have: HotRFC -> *DISPATCH -> WG-forming BOF That's okay with me, but it goes to the RFC2026 is wrong debate, and we should probably tell people about this more explicitely. That doesn't mean we have to freeze this process: but we do need to tell people it's happening. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGzBAEBCgAdFiEEow/1qDVgAbWL2zxYcAKuwszYgEMFAmI5nYEACgkQcAKuwszY gEOMzQv9EroZox9kZ2qa2TxabGlVK0SLV7+V5RJTqnuPn/4cGG7L/VkFO2XAxJmZ XAL+uWqL4sCi/O7cc7SswR540DSckzZI8v05oTKa61JNqn8jBNhNm9hGh8gbPpmQ ItrCQLyRO58esYb9yeYUz20m2X8F3k9u+7hMWmS5AUCVHhRGzQM5iERnpJ1pPBsP x63lPqMaip86SdPh9qdexNSnBtaYQQIZd8/fSb2yaYPsa/09dYdzcb2SE086EX/6 kwptLlg/2fzX4eCHOk5yu7KB3ZaEGq6wocZ6I0d16A0faQ1bvR5Te+6IlUrYPiA1 Gk8PhRCS/rMutZuFTNenRjDbMUmDy2wobeXdwjjTMcrTVYRGj/37KkjJWoy4f32U S6UYF07Q0eqtJ73cWQux3Q0VOMGuiU8b0oquQeB98+U+iC/klanvYYTHvCz4shBD KFPu4DUlDb6USoTdl1/G7IL95Q2AJ0HBMs7s0mFwWae5LlYd5cxrPkcter6rWvbe A6W2IPtN =Xr09 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Mar 22 04:15:16 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A7E3A105E; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 04:14:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QTZzbCA52a_2; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 04:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A13EA3A0D09; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 04:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1nWcTB-000MEJ-Ge; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:14:33 -0400 Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:14:28 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Michael Richardson cc: IRTF Discuss , WG Chairs , 113 attendees <113attendees@ietf.org>, IESG , IETF Discussion Subject: Re: [113attendees] HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call for participation Message-ID: <7B65A69DADBC0BCC329CF059@PSB> In-Reply-To: <742921.1647943041@dooku> References: <742921.1647943041@dooku> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 11:14:41 -0000 --On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 10:57 +0100 Michael Richardson wrote: >... > I tried the HotRFC last time, via gather.town, with the > recorded videos and questions on the floor. It's entirely a > different thing, and I think that actually, it is usefully > complementary. > I will note that *DISPATCH is also become more of a thing. > > While previously we often had a 1st non-WG forming BOF > followed by ML and charter discussions, we now have: > HotRFC -> *DISPATCH -> WG-forming BOF > That's okay with me, but it goes to the RFC2026 is wrong > debate, and we should probably tell people about this more > explicitely. That doesn't mean we have to freeze this > process: but we do need to tell people it's happening. I actually don't think it interacts much with 2026 although I do wonder whether how much introducing additional steps into the process --whether they involve a non-WG-forming BOF -> ML discussion -> charter proposal -> a WG-forming BOF -> more discussion and charter revision -> chartering or discussion, *DISPATCH, -> WG-forming BOF -> charter discussion -> chartering (with the initial discussion in the second case taking many forms) -- is contributing to general delays and some people's sense that it is impossible to get real work done in the IETF in any efficient and timely way. While, as work-proposing mechanisms, the tone is certainly different (especially along the fear of being attacked dimension you mention), I'm not sure whether HotRFC is significantly different from the BarBOFs of yesteryear. john From nobody Tue Mar 22 04:29:43 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE6D23A1114; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 04:29:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hughes.com header.b=BVrY/gT9; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=hughes.com header.b=NBRzqZJD Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qjyJopLM3Oxx; 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Tue, 22 Mar 2022 11:29:09 +0000 From: "Border, John" To: John C Klensin , Michael Richardson CC: IRTF Discuss , WG Chairs , 113 attendees <113attendees@ietf.org>, IESG , IETF Discussion Subject: RE: [113attendees] HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call for participation Thread-Topic: [113attendees] HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call for participation Thread-Index: AQHYN6qzohGCwU8nM0+Pv1BW5AbFvKzKh6IAgACveoCAABWMAIAAA+iQ Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 11:29:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: <742921.1647943041@dooku> <7B65A69DADBC0BCC329CF059@PSB> In-Reply-To: <7B65A69DADBC0BCC329CF059@PSB> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 266f9ac3-d3ec-4e75-5d0b-08da0bf72e8e x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN7PR11MB2689:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hughes.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR11MB3647.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 266f9ac3-d3ec-4e75-5d0b-08da0bf72e8e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 Mar 2022 11:29:09.1162 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0e1f3187-4610-4ce2-bad1-b92f4ba36ab3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: C/Ts3UarJhgYkiebhOZw20ujq65XR2YRzIBsDWDqg5nvmixqs8Qc6VnY346HsKUCBJ4P1GtCjalgYMt1j0PrhA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN7PR11MB2689 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.850,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.64.514 definitions=2022-03-22_03,2022-03-22_01,2022-02-23_01 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 11:29:23 -0000 It is more like a convenient, centralized place to announce Bar BOFs... -----Original Message----- From: 113attendees <113attendees-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of John C Klen= sin Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2022 7:14 AM To: Michael Richardson Cc: IRTF Discuss ; WG Chairs ; 11= 3 attendees <113attendees@ietf.org>; IESG ; IETF Discussion = Subject: Re: [113attendees] HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call for participatio= n **EXTERNAL EMAIL**=20 --On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 10:57 +0100 Michael Richardson wrote: >... > I tried the HotRFC last time, via gather.town, with the recorded=20 >videos and questions on the floor. It's entirely a different thing,=20 >and I think that actually, it is usefully complementary. > I will note that *DISPATCH is also become more of a thing. >=20 > While previously we often had a 1st non-WG forming BOF followed by ML=20 > and charter discussions, we now have: > HotRFC -> *DISPATCH -> WG-forming BOF > That's okay with me, but it goes to the RFC2026 is wrong debate, and=20 > we should probably tell people about this more explicitely. That=20 > doesn't mean we have to freeze this > process: but we do need to tell people it's happening. I actually don't think it interacts much with 2026 although I do wonder whe= ther how much introducing additional steps into the process --whether they = involve=20 a non-WG-forming BOF -> ML discussion -> charter proposal -> a WG-forming BOF -> more discussion and charter revision -> chartering or discussion, *DISPATCH, -> WG-forming BOF -> charter discussion -> chartering (with the initial discussion in the second case taking many forms) -- is contributing to general delays and some people's sense that it= is impossible to get real work done in the IETF in any efficient and timel= y way. While, as work-proposing mechanisms, the tone is certainly different (espec= ially along the fear of being attacked dimension you mention), I'm not sure= whether HotRFC is significantly different from the BarBOFs of yesteryear. john =20 -- 113attendees mailing list 113attendees@ietf.org https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/113attend= ees__;!!Emaut56SYw!ns3s2cRVvygXRTSlQ4Jl0eVwnu3vQnQTmodGTvmEhTPw34vtRcS6pUwM= 9FAO0TV-8g$=20 From nobody Tue Mar 22 06:24:50 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EAB33A12D2; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 06:24:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FxzoBuUj7Yk3; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 06:24:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00:e000:2bb::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93F2F3A12D5; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 06:24:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:46d6:7665:a1eb:b761]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6ABA1F458; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:24:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id F419E1A01C2; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 09:24:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: John C Klensin , IRTF Discuss , WG Chairs , 113 attendees <113attendees@ietf.org>, IESG , IETF Discussion Subject: Re: [113attendees] HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call for participation In-reply-to: <7B65A69DADBC0BCC329CF059@PSB> References: <742921.1647943041@dooku> <7B65A69DADBC0BCC329CF059@PSB> Comments: In-reply-to John C Klensin message dated "Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:14:28 -0400." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7.1; GNU Emacs 26.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 14:24:31 +0100 Message-ID: <825440.1647955471@dooku> Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:24:43 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain John C Klensin wrote: > I actually don't think it interacts much with 2026 although I do wonder It's not so much that it interacts with 2026,etc. so much as that those documents are wrong. > is contributing to general delays and some people's sense that it is > impossible to get real work done in the IETF in any efficient and > timely way. I would say that it's contributing to a sense that people don't know what the flavour of the day is. > While, as work-proposing mechanisms, the tone is certainly different > (especially along the fear of being attacked dimension you mention), > I'm not sure whether HotRFC is significantly different from the BarBOFs > of yesteryear. Actual BarBOFs, in bars with napkins and beer (and no remote things to get in the way), would be before HotRFC :-) -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGzBAEBCgAdFiEEow/1qDVgAbWL2zxYcAKuwszYgEMFAmI5zg8ACgkQcAKuwszY gEPeeQv+OH7ZhQALYRAhX8SeJAZtA87QHCrt1CWL3yQeTvazVKk9YYPX0NlTmTWt 91xaXVZ5QsvXuHNozt9I8BwH7EEj8IwIsJTU4exKdhgYfVeQpLzqU51ouISitsmn is56Ydm0IP0rTwPCERnS7CGMYRsEJ/vQyBJOFUKYywCp+2+oSmppuXjA12LBKFYC jz8l/WAKvcNgE7QcSzZqPRYDNdgFZHmImZ3gxQHoauDNHQOL1/sczTdtay8QxZbk yvy3T/sVMUwmi5i3lqPh8k+NeT9iB614fRihMvlowb0QsdIOhIGteD/apdPSzd5T aY6/m5tJXcUWfaoKR8txYgARhFmD5aL8F8ZC1cHsOzPLgzveEBKWaN92eH1BLOKs EV2XioNo7IoCsn+MYVPj2Ah2oxnok56JXr83Optt8VVvKztclTkG2dCEWEPanc94 Dj/iUOvDLWSpbdbdORUAFurjlJ+7P9pJqBj2KaDhs+xQJld5bgW6J3cwtVN1pFGu k3mmxedO =QBjr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Mar 22 08:08:48 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B243F3A1531; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 08:08:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wStBLOUX9px2; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 08:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk1-xa2b.google.com (mail-vk1-xa2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 465683A176B; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 08:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk1-xa2b.google.com with SMTP id q85so2470123vkq.4; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 08:07:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cxMoiq5ra2nyrwU+34/Iid0fFOJ9LkpMPPwqM9ZFVX8=; b=pfZnXjWakjAGX1B2op8IQrkSRjquzWBIj7xDTEwY6wbI3lj6W146VE6NmTx7INeY4R 3KooN5xn3tviHvI3L3lAthMXMJwza7fCQubasszYosyMy9gnbkwM6EUSAqPLCZMAyNQN JlZiZfMHnL7NKGvpJfDIo01+BbmmCI52TS3vOSq9aGx81BwtV70/vsoCsbAYJrD9RiTc v+fLJ6O79gbww6YBo0R8JvZPW5W9dxeoqiwVwXUZQXgEv2RCvqMmHD1cmEmasEWOCCo4 KD6ZHtcUpJu9KKFmwejoR2LS+lnS4dQXpqdswtk5fmVAzjhs8fvfMLVsvM3DoG1H1fqv ywug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cxMoiq5ra2nyrwU+34/Iid0fFOJ9LkpMPPwqM9ZFVX8=; b=bSE1GJJyU3EmBE2EI2ZuncRNgTSXFgty7c5jk60DTkG6l8FRcTqHUaKKpKOvrGaJgZ YQxMD9pLD6I6xvdV9Ftjjq5NiwIwVLYc0w1u3nxKcu0BgcPwFvf/ABLiNICyqa3y1PwC /D8WxAzB3+ZV+S42w3ozQnCBhTWEf1OTDJfnncuRAbTAekfu50otMiRHJPYJSS2/4ukO +gjlZeSJRPttYW8DMHJ9BzwhBsnon2I9KtKR1Ia0di3IoIF59hGvvl2H/fnPUUt/uAmz ozSEumHBbtY/pIk/SpGBDIN1wCYl3Jt27Z47blIE0Y2qeaIehixPanJTS+W3aBPSbAhY QRGg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532zkt+xVwS7ivTH597DRb5iKvx1lr9MyUlC+Bs2EdDt4bUqwZEI 2BCkfihmk2k/D9eC/qJSSIC5Tae5THZngjC0V5U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwSINaArFBkUv9kBtuEqxUc9Cm4JrDjIliDNGTwc9r586RQjFpqSndkDfwPcPEaDzYyBZ1Aa8NKcPV+adhCxho= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:2088:b0:33f:317e:385a with SMTP id i8-20020a056122208800b0033f317e385amr3319039vkd.1.1647961677498; Tue, 22 Mar 2022 08:07:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <742921.1647943041@dooku> <7B65A69DADBC0BCC329CF059@PSB> <825440.1647955471@dooku> In-Reply-To: <825440.1647955471@dooku> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 16:07:31 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [113attendees] HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call for participation To: Michael Richardson Cc: John C Klensin , IRTF Discuss , WG Chairs , 113 attendees <113attendees@ietf.org>, IESG , IETF Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000640d0a05dacffa53" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 15:08:22 -0000 --000000000000640d0a05dacffa53 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I should say that I'm still acting as the Aaron Interpreter, but only because he's now arrived at his new home in LA, and is using a cell phone until his Internet service is installed. He can chime in anytime, and start an email with "what Spencer MEANT to say, was ..." But, moving on ... On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 2:25 PM Michael Richardson wrote: > > John C Klensin wrote: > > I actually don't think it interacts much with 2026 although I do > wonder > > It's not so much that it interacts with 2026,etc. so much as that those > documents are wrong. > > > is contributing to general delays and some people's sense that it i= s > > impossible to get real work done in the IETF in any efficient and > > timely way. > > I would say that it's contributing to a sense that people don't know what > the > flavour of the day is. > > > While, as work-proposing mechanisms, the tone is certainly differen= t > > (especially along the fear of being attacked dimension you mention)= , > > I'm not sure whether HotRFC is significantly different from the > BarBOFs > > of yesteryear. > > Actual BarBOFs, in bars with napkins and beer (and no remote things to ge= t > in > the way), would be before HotRFC :-) > Aaron has taken suggestions from other people, but the format we used for HotRFC this week was almost unchanged from what Aaron proposed to the IESG before IETF 102. I said in the chair slides that HotRFC presentations are Requests For Conversations, and people can have *many *reasons to want to talk for four minutes. If people are trying to figure out where a HotRFC talk fits into our documented process and our published guidance about "bringing new work into the IETF", that's probably not going to be the same place for every person and every proposal. Would it be good to write that down, so that people could understand that clearly? Probably ... =F0=9F=99=82 Best, Spencer --000000000000640d0a05dacffa53 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I should say that I'm still acting as= the Aaron Interpreter,=C2=A0but only=C2=A0because=C2=A0he's now arrive= d at his new home in LA, and is using a cell phone until his Internet servi= ce is installed. He can chime in anytime, and start an email with "wha= t Spencer MEANT to say, was ..."=C2=A0

But, moving = on ...=C2=A0

On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 2:25 PM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrot= e:

John C Klensin <j= ohn-ietf@jck.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I actually don't think it interacts much with 2026 a= lthough I do wonder

It's not so much that it interacts with 2026,etc. so much as that those=
documents are wrong.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > is contributing to general delays and some people's = sense that it is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > impossible to get real work done in the IETF in any effi= cient and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > timely way.

I would say that it's contributing to a sense that people don't kno= w what the
flavour of the day is.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > While, as work-proposing mechanisms, the tone is certain= ly different
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > (especially along the fear of being attacked dimension y= ou mention),
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I'm not sure whether HotRFC is significantly differe= nt from the BarBOFs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > of yesteryear.

Actual BarBOFs, in bars with napkins and beer (and no remote things to get = in
the way), would be before HotRFC :-)

Aa= ron has taken suggestions from other people, but the format we used for Hot= RFC this week was almost unchanged from what Aaron proposed to the IESG bef= ore IETF 102.=C2=A0

I said in the chair slides tha= t HotRFC presentations are Requests For Conversations, and people can have = many reasons to want to talk for four minutes.

<= div>If people are trying to figure out where a HotRFC talk fits into our do= cumented process and our published guidance about "bringing new work i= nto the IETF", that's probably not going to be the same place for = every person and every proposal.=C2=A0

Would it be= good to write that down, so that people could understand that clearly? Pro= bably ...=C2=A0=F0=9F=99=82

Best,

Spencer
--000000000000640d0a05dacffa53-- From nobody Tue Mar 22 08:29:58 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07DCC3A1598; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 16:29:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FaUK-Jky2One; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 16:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk1-xa2f.google.com (mail-vk1-xa2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 852BF3A1BEA; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 16:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk1-xa2f.google.com with SMTP id d7so8763387vkd.11; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 16:29:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gJQSbegCJ1Cs8Kub7JfAZdJge3W7mSB41mOv64p4iuw=; b=gx09hiiDmHC5apYHzhHQJrq/fVlEApaEiM+7u+FwSuh/xLuvF2eNSb4Yc7EFsM6RH5 gjaOIxokmyyCVmaQt2baUVJ1ROlpq1u9nXPdfY0skm5EsmDpJ+K0IIJ0WFWTwyj86IXo wMDs5ErEfGOzMPHID4alCafNiq75mHvwqsgKPpqrXRcezeFutzOePCEK8iE2QyXWb7Ed YgHGsvSYSkJw7RxW9kdUm0pYE7zIitTCrLGYi2GOoYiYcRx7BAphYE804+mGGKVr5ZM1 LcgZIlWhBVQIP6GRxFXbsnc9LWYI57d/cuLLOOmjCWq7iT8Qc8u0lDfXiCqh1KUH9M0r WsGA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gJQSbegCJ1Cs8Kub7JfAZdJge3W7mSB41mOv64p4iuw=; b=2oFGATgGuAtTTkq3XYJ4nQP/591sEfe7y8kpvaVYYMmmN/drwkhAEZXE1a/5RI9T8T BA3NsGnJ6txDD0DXkOKdWYzoFn0FHI84ACHkMh6zo1UeLvNcmP8EsXgo2f/MJch8vqFL UqdwDJrnOCKvdCYq9Ik78Usi8XdTpBzbJ/1Znk7LOa5rR6DlnNvpVMnUxzQ8O58OBfDU +JeGz2IZ9jA7t+VU2xeCejKZFT8i9FyeugEKy+uX5RPaZFkK37Knw1Vmlqki1p5eTHKG +N6lrBczwd+BmjNIXIn5NcM0QsBuwc32EHIcbSmqeR2GxwIfNsu1CLDfmysYy1UfbUC2 bpWA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533hGmxWjDDORY6ed2BCHY34d6ImOt1k/7ug+hUOj0yJmvFeC5Zd tn3yyQXlYx7jJVCKH4gybdDlzXaDloN34HPKEL2At+sxezTlZg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz8Ut6gdO8ng/f00Ecx/wC/WAqzlqqgeSNXCrnNR9e6T8CBMHgnGATIlH177nmZ1iM/1HhvGwNmeFbsG9vFVc0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:2088:b0:33f:36e4:d34e with SMTP id i8-20020a056122208800b0033f36e4d34emr1758308vkd.34.1647905369030; Mon, 21 Mar 2022 16:29:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 00:29:18 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call for participation To: IESG Cc: IETF Discussion , 113 attendees <113attendees@ietf.org>, WG Chairs , IRTF Discuss , Aaron Falk , Alia Atlas , "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" , Alexa Morris , Liz Flynn , Stephanie McCammon , Jasmine Magallanes Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000025057f05dac2de25" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 08:29:56 -0700 X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 23:29:34 -0000 --00000000000025057f05dac2de25 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wanted to follow up on this while HotRFC is still on my mind. Aaron did a fabulous job of backstage preparation, and Liz Flynn with the Secretariat and the Meetecho team provided fabulous last-minute support to make this happen, even when Aaron was moving from Boston to LA, with little or no Internet access this past weekend. We had about 50 attendees in Meetecho, and I'd guess about 30 people in the room, which isn't a bad turnout. We had 8 speakers, at least two of whom were first-time attendees. IIRC, four were in the room, and four were remote via Meetecho. I'm not impartial, but I think HotRFC is one of the best things that the IESG put in place while I was on the IESG. CoViD-19 was not kind to us - we didn't have a HotRFC from IETF 107 to IETF 111, and Aaron and Alexa did a great job of putting SOMETHING in place for IETF 112, using Gather. At IETF 113, we were back to Aaron's original format, except that we also had remote presenters this time. I'd like for the IESG to think a bit about how the IETF can use HotRFC more effectively. Most of the work behind HotRFC has been done by people who weren't on the IESG, so I'm talking about making sure that we don't forget to think about when to schedule it, who should be hosting it, and how to publicize it - given that, the rest of HotRFC is easy. Even making it visible to people who might not arrive early for the Hackathon or for tutorials, but would want to arrive early for HotRFC, before they make their travel arrangements would be helpful. I haven't talked with Aaron about any of this (when he unpacks, he would likely have opinions), or with any of the presenters or participants, but they can reply here, and tell you what they think as well. Best, Spencer p.s. thanks to Alia Atlas and Deborah Brungard, who helped think HotRFC up in a bar in Singapore. Always spend time in bars at IETF meetings. =F0=9F= =98=89 > --00000000000025057f05dac2de25 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I wanted to follow up o= n this while HotRFC is still on my mind.=C2=A0

Aaron did a fabulous job of backstage preparation, and Liz Flynn w= ith the Secretariat and the Meetecho team provided fabulous last-minute sup= port to make this happen, even when Aaron was moving from Boston to LA, wit= h little or no Internet access this past weekend.=C2=A0

We had about 50 attendees in Meetecho, and I'd guess about 30 peo= ple in the room, which isn't a bad turnout.=C2=A0

<= div>We had 8 speakers, at least two of whom were first-time attendees. IIRC= , four were in the room, and four were remote via Meetecho.

<= /div>
I'm not impartial, but I think HotRFC is one of the best thin= gs that the IESG put in place while I was on the IESG.=C2=A0

=
CoViD-19 was not kind to us - we didn't have a HotRFC from I= ETF 107 to IETF 111, and Aaron and Alexa did a great job of putting SOMETHI= NG in place for IETF 112, using Gather. At IETF 113, we were back to Aaron&= #39;s original format, except that we also had remote presenters this time.=

I'd like for the IESG to think a bit about ho= w the IETF can use HotRFC more effectively. Most of the work behind HotRFC = has been done by people who weren't on the IESG, so I'm talking abo= ut making sure that we don't forget to think about when to schedule it,= who should be hosting it, and how to publicize it - given that, the rest o= f HotRFC is easy.=C2=A0

Even making it visible to = people who might not arrive=C2=A0early for the Hackathon or for tutorials, = but would want to arrive early for HotRFC, before they make their travel ar= rangements would be helpful.=C2=A0

I haven't t= alked with Aaron about any of this (when he unpacks, he would likely have o= pinions), or with any of the presenters or participants, but they can reply= here, and tell you what they think as well.=C2=A0

Best,

Spencer

p.s. thank= s to Alia Atlas and Deborah Brungard, who helped think HotRFC up in a bar i= n Singapore. Always spend time in bars at IETF meetings.=C2=A0=F0=9F=98=89<= /div>

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Postel Service Award are now open: https://www.internetsociety.org/grants-and-awards/postel-service-award/ Each year, the Internet Society presents the prestigious award to an individual or organization that, like Jon Postel, has made significant contributions in service to the Internet community. The award commemorates Jon Postel’s extraordinary stewardship in the course of his 30-year career in networking. The chosen candidate will be presented with a USD20,000 honorarium and the signature crystal engraved globe at a global conference with Internet technical leaders later this year. Previous award winners include Onno Purbo for making the Internet more affordable in Indonesia’s rural areas, Alain Aina for building technical communities that help to spread the Internet across Africa, Steven Huter for fostering local Internet communities globally and Kimberly Claffy for her contribution to Internet measurement. Special emphasis is placed on candidates who have supported and enabled others in addition to their own contributions. Please spread the word by sharing this with your networks. To make a nomination, click here: https://wp.apps.internetsociety.org/wp/postel-award/nomination-form/ Nomination period ends on 13 May 2022, 23:59 UTC. For questions, email postel@isoc.org Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan President & CEO, Internet Society sullivan@isoc.org +1 416 731 1261 From nobody Sun Mar 27 03:00:25 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3AED3A0DE1 for ; Sun, 27 Mar 2022 03:00:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1OfZhGY_Cd9h for ; Sun, 27 Mar 2022 03:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E9793A0DE0 for ; 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Mon, 28 Mar 2022 11:47:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=riseup.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n3__8DoPrekz for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 11:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2AA63A17B8 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 11:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fews1.riseup.net (fews1-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.riseup.net", Issuer "R3" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4KS1sW5L8KzDs9g; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 11:47:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1648493263; bh=86/+w3NLNArd7mzXHjiBwtA0T7Rq4/4W6KEs/NA+3sA=; h=Date:From:Subject:Reply-To:To:Cc:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=dmUxG+6tanPOLoGDVDO4wTZmYNH0cQeXo973OAAVykHnbDdXgNaKMdrUIrLq0ZkBG 2OmSJacmII50sfxK6pyyJyryip6lYTaY6deroZO3YUbtE1yvF8Qn8FWmKnRpMU7Vi9 eAvCzWd/1p2TUkQHTKrMrUq6nkk3SkWq9usRsth0= X-Riseup-User-ID: ABFC10174B19A7D9221C04BF92D25E7ADD713D4155A59315611D62DE2FEE8686 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fews1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4KS1sT73wxz5vjx; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 11:47:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:47:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: willi uebelherr Subject: Re: Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet Reply-To: willi uebelherr To: ISOC Internet Policy Cc: IRTF discuss , IETF discussion , IGF governance References: Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 18:47:49 -0000 Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022 https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-calls-to-undermine-the-internet/ Internet Fragmentation: An Overview William Drake, Vinton Cerf, Wolfgang Kleinwächter 01.2016 https://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_FII_Internet_Fragmentation_An_Overview_2016.pdf Dear friends, i am very surprised at the passion in this discussion to gather on side issues instead of addressing the main issues. The statement by Andrew Sullivan from ISOC still stands: "The Internet have to be for everyone". And from a member of the IETF-maillist: "Internet, from the people, for the people ..." Already in 2016 this text was published, which I linked at the beginning of this email: "Internet Fragmentation: An Overview." On page 10 we read: "From a technical standpoint, the original shared vision guiding the Internet's development was that every device on the Internet should be able to exchange data packets with any other device that was willing to receive them. ..." And even in our 1st discussion in 2016 on the topic of the Internet on ISOC's global policy list, there was no relevant interest to address the basic problem in the construction of an Internet. When private and governmental interests dominate, nothing can ever emerge that is intended to work for communities of people. It then remains a fragmented entity where only individual interests are to be realized. And there we are still. We see today how disastrous this way is. The Russian Federation has now put a stop to this madness by ending the militarization and fascization of Eurasia. And we see in the food supply the consequences of regions not respecting their sovereignty and autonomy. World trade and global economic constriction is part of the great nonsense that people have come up with. The Roman Empire also failed in this. And the US dollar empire will also fail. We, as actors for a free global communication of the people of this planet, do not need privatization and state control mania. Etatism will be buried. We need the creative development of local and regional potentials. Even if telecommunication is not a food, it is the prerequisite for our free exchange of theoretical bases and our construction ideas, in order to be able to produce all that we really need. And always there, where it is also needed. The telecommunication in the form of an Internet is our instrument to overcome our fragmentation of the people into ethnic groups and linguistic and cultural spaces, in order to give to all people the possibility to be able to produce their stable material bases of life according to our natural conditions of existence. You see, I refer here clearly and without compromise to the statement of Andrew Sullivan. Maybe some of you find my interpretation of this statement unpleasant or not purposeful? Then let's talk about our intentions and motivations that lead us to deal with questions of an InterNet and to talk and write about it. When we talk about construction principles, we are not yet talking about the details of the components that are needed for it and how they can be created. Every manufacturing process rests on 3 phases: Design, Construction and Manufacturing. We are actually back in the design phase because we can or might recognize that what has been created over the last few decades is not fit for purpose. So it was a design failure from the beginning. with kind regards, willi Asuncion, Paraguay original in german ---------------------------------------------------- Liebe freunde, ich bin sehr erstaunt ueber die Leidenschaft in dieser Diskussion, sich auf Nebenschauplaetzen zu versammeln, statt sich den Hauptfragen zu widmen. Nach wie vor steht die Aussage von Andrew Sullivan von ISOC im Raum: "The Internet have to be for everyone". And from a member of the IETF-maillist: "Internet, from the people, for the people ..." Schon 2016 wurde dieser Text veroeffentlicht, den ich am Anfang dieser email verlinkt habe: "Internet Fragmentation: An Overview." Auf Seite 10 lesen wir: "From a technical standpoint, the original shared vision guiding the Internet’s development was that every device on the Internet should be able to exchange data packets with any other device that was willing to receive them. ..." Und schon in unserer 1. Diskussion 2016 zum Thema Internet auf der globalen policy-liste von ISOC war kein relevantes Interesse zu erkennen, die Grundproblematik in der Konstruktion eines Internet anzusprechen. Wenn private und staatliche Interessen dominieren, kann niemals etwas entstehen, das fuer die Gemeinschaften der Menschen wirken soll. Es bleibt dann ein fragmentiertes Gebilde, wo nur individuale Interessen realisiert werden sollen. Und da sind wir immer noch. Wir sehen heute, wie katastrophal dieser Weg ist. Die russische Foederation hat diesem Irrsinn nun einen Stop gesetzt, indem sie die Militarisierung und Faschisierung von Eurasien beendet. Und wir sehen in der Nahrungsmittelversorgung die Konsequenzen, wenn die Regionen nicht auf ihre Souveraenitaet und Autonomie achten. Welthandel und globale oekonomische Verschraenkung ist Teil des grossen Bloedsinns, den sich die Menschen ausgedacht haben. Auch das roemische Imperium ist daran gescheitert. Und das US-Dollar-Imperium wird auch daran scheitern. Wir, als Akteure fuer eine freie globale Kommunikation der Menschen dieses Planeten brauchen keine Privatisierung und staatlichen Kontrollwahn. Der Etatismus wird begraben. Wir brauchen die kreative Entfaltung der lokalen und regionalen Potentiale. Auch wenn die Telekommunikation kein Lebensmittel ist, so ist sie doch die Vorraussetzung fuer unseren freien Austausch der theoretischen Grundlagen und unserer Konstruktionsideen, um all jenes herstellen zu koennen, was wir wirklich brauchen. Und immer dort, wo es auch gebraucht wird. Die Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet ist unser Instrument, um unsere Fragmentisierung der Menschen in Ethnien und spachliche und kulturelle Raeume zu ueberwinden, um allen Menschen die Moeglichkeit zu geben, ihre stabilen materiellen Lebensgrundlagen gemaess unserer natuerlichen Existenzbedingungen selbst herstellen zu koennen. Ihr seht, ich beziehe mich hier eindeutig und ohne Kompromisse auf die Aussage von Andrew Sullivan. Vielleicht ist manchem von euch meine Interpretation dieser Aussage unangenehm oder nicht zielfuehrend? Dann lasst uns ueber unsere Intentionen und Motivationen sprechen, die uns veranlassen, uns mit fragen eines InterNet zu beschaeftigen und drueber zu sprechen und zu schreiben. Wenn wir ueber Konstruktionsprinzipien sprechen, dann geht es noch nicht um die Details der Komponenten, die dafuer gebraucht werden und wie sie entstehen koennen. Jeder Herstellungsprozess ruht auf 3 Phasen: Design/Entwurf, Konstruktion und Herstellung. Wir befinden uns eigentlich wieder in der Entwurfsphase, weil wir erkennen koennen oder koennten, dass das, was die letzten Jahrzehnte entstanden ist, nicht tauglich ist. Es war also von Anfang an ein Entwurfsfehler. mit lieben Gruessen, willi Asuncion, Paraguay From nobody Tue Mar 29 01:51:12 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1810D3A17DE for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 01:51:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.564 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.564 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DEAR_SOMETHING=1.973, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.248, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.248, HTML_FONT_SIZE_LARGE=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LFx-L_TWNipX for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 01:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-f169.google.com (mail-qt1-f169.google.com [209.85.160.169]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD47D3A17DA for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 01:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-f169.google.com with SMTP id c4so14659874qtx.1 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 01:50:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hof0Iax9aKG67GHFvi8sScIQKEa38Ovj4j0DkPxD+34=; b=FOOlm9mSwJ64bfYu17wLyD+K9knDi7XcsMh6tivGJfdJImAvrjY/OJ65cEp7i+3O/R h+DM/Wgd3chjXcRYmbfiOcgW/bY9EfJypIrYiYnH7YJh5GshNhGeiKEB2b7vfzNHHfwl nbE+X94NjuVFJZp7Lo0VX+MAKUDap38iNRn2VSexvn2aKiIXg/H7dmFSx+SyaYDSwbjC E9durTRJf0Yku1flwsHFcnDIhAvd2o+ZCx3Q+9pkS9ARKxBHfA4N9dlbRMSssUOgoxyJ 34JsMIEvWXiNplmnMcR79tbDpbWYNab9acuLEX7kzgMt2m9rbDG+OgAbNnq2LigE7IGx g2CQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531/4qZCPQWgBNRRZFPe19uvBZWNY4XyrkWLUbEcQY2QfD0J4Qtz Pz1aBqzNhnmM4hfyaVq1f9KbbBenRtxoa2hrdw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzi7rODAtUNQ8l7MeiMH6bFyRMIZM46Gifm8LiV4L0R0aHQtkRUh47D1vdw2hcqQiboXr+JyZc1FFUckJzGyVQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:1906:b0:2e0:77a7:16c4 with SMTP id w6-20020a05622a190600b002e077a716c4mr26605834qtc.119.1648543857709; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 01:50:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Reply-To: joly@punkcast.com From: Joly MacFie Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 04:50:21 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet To: abdulhakimfarahmand@gmail.com Cc: willi uebelherr , ISOC Internet Policy , IRTF discuss , IETF discussion , IGF governance Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000915a405db5787b6" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:51:01 -0000 --0000000000000915a405db5787b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" In terms of 'elevation', I think Abdul has just raised the bar on how to be added to as many killfiles as possible at one stroke :) Joly > *Dear sir/Madam!* > > I offer my respect for you and after giving greetings and best wishes > > Please receive these attachments > > Kind regards. > ABDUL HAKIM "FARAHMAND" > I have work experience above four years of Monitoring and Elevation > Officer > > -- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- - --0000000000000915a405db5787b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In terms of 'elevation', I think= Abdul has just raised the bar on how to be added to as many killfiles as p= ossible at one stroke :)

= Joly

Dear sir/Madam!
I offer my respect for you and after giving greetings and best wishes<= /p>
Please receive these attachments
Kind regards.
ABDUL = HAKIM "FARAHMAND"
I have work experience above four years of=C2=A0 Monitoring and Elevation Officer
= <snip>=
<= /div>

--
------------= --------------------------
Joly MacFie=C2=A0 +12185659365=C2=A0
---------------------------= -----------
-
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Tue, 29 Mar 2022 12:29:30 +0000 From: Axel Abad To: ISOC Internet Policy , willi uebelherr CC: IRTF discuss , IETF discussion , IGF governance Subject: RE: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet Thread-Topic: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet Thread-Index: AQHYNXLKyR28fZy1yk2QLYCDMLXONazAKDQAgAA1BICAFOCjH4ABIsEF Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 12:29:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: es-AR, en-US Content-Language: es-AR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: suggested_attachment_session_id: 7ffaf22f-c10f-91d3-dc45-f564bace234c x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [nwUS4e76n30F7YeoYxdia2iAGAeZ59sw] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: d5bef66c-ae24-4025-968a-08da117fc5c7 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SN6PR06MB4559:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: JSgLmHhshNaVjfmjC+OZO49hAkUaOIk/Z0A3WGNsjyi3QNLHw8g7QIANl4DMCt5MOF6FmXooY30259TqHx177BkbT9h9V2AT1uoi/xicYYscPRievpa30mx9ZRSbVUVEQ8l9bc2yI5aFeCU1z8E3rC9l4QoOBld2jPCbsN/kP8qj/OFr7hKatSp+w+d+h1gszdYxG3q/CTf8gImswuGLhS4ExY4x5s93ov+PZdJbwy4JrvZTSkO8X7W6lkXj1yDeUpWqRC4oV2UMrDeKb+IMp1x9ATmmuj90TBoVEuPQPvbF3m09KFjCLL9muxQs4KmxApMLL5j7rZGQQ41zZvzwz0lWawK9lj9uNhC47e+vHqTG7kHAi0pTqgWvHosg3vny0txheIRFJk7aKCqfw1eRJhyhAA5nGvJP4aFkgI9MFxAaV5JYNqLIKQC2sZtD1m2+k8i+q5ppg/car99KkdzzMf56A5dD9Q2ar6MWQiGPaDqTj1n8UVYnmtZUl7h5/XoBrStzLraPMVeZdmiUF3jeq8iwnYwa+g3/oV0SDPzyk3wq7M3fmM6z+vE88QPaQEoeshEARx97WqsAkVTu95QSIYu3VYPXVbNUtM+0CpO2sqrIR2F44rIQ9x+c08cOrCl1ft0jRhWTqiwZn36LDIhB8xkODqZDUtOENmspd3ujkn8= x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?Windows-1252?Q?7sQ9a/Y2tdc+DaYrtIZWuGo5ly9n1y06M2Ye2RX/+WoBRFRKJH1hQO7L?= =?Windows-1252?Q?QBd5hYT/Et05vRwQ+UPIN8f2Fjg/kIZ9vhpfpbB+v9EnTvoqEoCk9yGi?= =?Windows-1252?Q?wRJUAI8Ka6nRioNUQeX/RIzug4pA7rU/rBVz+86tPtwp977Xe8GXjXa2?= =?Windows-1252?Q?nNDVZaJsayoLmAv3Y9CDfBNjC0hhJDhS3dTJmre5UkaTlrzO7gyZI3FK?= =?Windows-1252?Q?4C4EJWbA1NTaGE9B79kUJKwysg24msptt9Lxr0bOh6HTfu7INUQHwziy?= =?Windows-1252?Q?2OzOFG6/t5Z4g/cyRdbicWZ2we1rokvM2go/CGCVo1A9bpiijhr2g1gL?= =?Windows-1252?Q?NnUU2X93KBQzInIyTb+CVbRskig2xmLdqoZzZlsl+8vESUfs0I9Hshuo?= =?Windows-1252?Q?mCF1eOHpmvh8bw9CIEZTsTNjBfU9HIWQe8iNWyGwvn19y3jukTD4Xp33?= =?Windows-1252?Q?R6+JpCLe0Q7v68By9ikMBDd1r+3hzoiMDU6XdSxl+i/YRQDV2qu8wG5x?= =?Windows-1252?Q?Bywy/MyEGlEQgEYoEO5PTrrDJz9n27irRrj99FQWrtf8kWKkAjOp1ck8?= =?Windows-1252?Q?pbmF32G4srKVeQXwRf+hjItA/iOkEQFtfiJUGS42I3uI0bDqs2wm6xrJ?= =?Windows-1252?Q?+KYpJwlznKzM0avukLheTGY7etGvpFjy72zqsp2fzmzZ7ZInomDwQmhA?= =?Windows-1252?Q?SpynSDNVmizYrrVzAxR7GF0ME/vZ258BxgYnUjhNipMOQfPA9+d2ABYN?= =?Windows-1252?Q?h7aeno4caDGC3QgPP0EC0AENMBlMJg6uRl036sO5lIAxcHtnBUhdkoXK?= =?Windows-1252?Q?8LlE/Dz9nO4pWx9ky7t4kS+uzRt/MtwBtPzoQU+rIc7awXQsDBhVNznn?= =?Windows-1252?Q?ixV9UyXJWR2rYE5CDWlqBGgEkKQcVUwS1slyQQE9VpUJFvQT5Xcsidty?= =?Windows-1252?Q?Jv8wFs+1SX/BNpuGl42A05s7iiwQTFL6LjbUaamXOcZXYdkCfgwe5hxR?= =?Windows-1252?Q?PTPyrIbGh/xP+YCCm1iW3FZ19j6ZR0jlQfU/EPshvO7SSlJdutLj0STi?= =?Windows-1252?Q?RvryjIboLQr8gIBieqSTMRNSwoFVN3gCiBv88u2EOGDNWiIDPv0OZi7R?= =?Windows-1252?Q?gc4WbhabWEEWoq4xDAdyefxSEP+tQNrMo4smyVHx46y5E6GGSHLoYoPZ?= =?Windows-1252?Q?econA/Gx8F2qnGAw5Q7JxyzGBf7QKVAMNPv/8CLjlh+qk1Qg+Rv+voGp?= =?Windows-1252?Q?QVysO8OTmmebMtsr4+fZc6V28hFsxBmoSQIt6f0kAOEYDviaafgEzHI+?= =?Windows-1252?Q?pCVL4jAXGIcq4Zc9HCHU46670uqvr1eIqrNbltb2c6sDEF0iDihhsQZO?= =?Windows-1252?Q?4TrfT+fmXOTfaMwUT0aJNdorpx5QT8PQeUysEFAzc2+UISZCoNdvXkrr?= =?Windows-1252?Q?yjO3a0eUFCr6O5gqz+z+PrPTN4sHFIO7K0Gwj3GG86ilJ7JBnjUQ09I6?= =?Windows-1252?Q?N9GBfBYjIOw/2wTGRVAq5mj6lv5fGg=3D=3D?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I.M.H.O. : This is a fallacy from the beggining. Maybe was a nice idealism.= . very altruistic and selfless. But the true is there for everyone to see. Why should we think that Internet must be of and for everybody? Is that more important than the Human Health? or the Food? (not for free, n= ot for everyone) By the moment, the only thing that we can consume freely is the Air... Al = the other "basic" needs are rated and have a cost.. Is sad, but is true. Access to technology will be always reserved for some portion of the human = kind. There are lots of people who don=B4t have access to food.. or even wa= ter... They are not concerned about Internet, for sure... But there are a l= ot of others who didn=B4t have access to basic tools, like a hammer or a sp= ade... So, the "formula" is very simple: If you have enough resources to live in t= he current culture without worries about food and roof needs (and other bas= ics), then "you are in" (if you want invest on that). Then, access to technology is costly. If you can have this access, then som= eone is receiving something in exchange. And there is when the Internet stops be of all and for all. And there is wh= en the "control" begins. No matter if it is on a Governement hands, or a Private entity. Until the entire Human race enter on the next Kardashov civilization age (t= ype II) we will continue to be "energy provider" dependent, and that=B4s in= clude all related technologies involved with electrical energy (Telecomm, I= nternet, etc.) To have Internet free for all, we need to have Energy free for all first. That=B4s is my comment about. Sorry if it is not "nice" or "kindly". Axel Abad.- ________________________________ De: InternetPolicy en nombre de wi= lli uebelherr via InternetPolicy Enviado: lunes, 28 de marzo de 2022 15:47 Para: ISOC Internet Policy Cc: IRTF discuss ; IETF discussion ; = IGF governance Asunto: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine = the Internet Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022 https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-call= s-to-undermine-the-internet/ Internet Fragmentation: An Overview William Drake, Vinton Cerf, Wolfgang Kleinw=E4chter 01.2016 https://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_FII_Internet_Fragmentation_An_Overview_20= 16.pdf Dear friends, i am very surprised at the passion in this discussion to gather on side issues instead of addressing the main issues. The statement by Andrew Sullivan from ISOC still stands: "The Internet have to be for everyone". And from a member of the IETF-maillist: "Internet, from the people, for the people ..." Already in 2016 this text was published, which I linked at the beginning of this email: "Internet Fragmentation: An Overview." On page 10 we read: "From a technical standpoint, the original shared vision guiding the Internet's development was that every device on the Internet should be able to exchange data packets with any other device that was willing to receive them. ..." And even in our 1st discussion in 2016 on the topic of the Internet on ISOC's global policy list, there was no relevant interest to address the basic problem in the construction of an Internet. When private and governmental interests dominate, nothing can ever emerge that is intended to work for communities of people. It then remains a fragmented entity where only individual interests are to be realized. And there we are still. We see today how disastrous this way is. The Russian Federation has now put a stop to this madness by ending the militarization and fascization of Eurasia. And we see in the food supply the consequences of regions not respecting their sovereignty and autonomy. World trade and global economic constriction is part of the great nonsense that people have come up with. The Roman Empire also failed in this. And the US dollar empire will also fail. We, as actors for a free global communication of the people of this planet, do not need privatization and state control mania. Etatism will be buried. We need the creative development of local and regional potentials. Even if telecommunication is not a food, it is the prerequisite for our free exchange of theoretical bases and our construction ideas, in order to be able to produce all that we really need. And always there, where it is also needed. The telecommunication in the form of an Internet is our instrument to overcome our fragmentation of the people into ethnic groups and linguistic and cultural spaces, in order to give to all people the possibility to be able to produce their stable material bases of life according to our natural conditions of existence. You see, I refer here clearly and without compromise to the statement of Andrew Sullivan. Maybe some of you find my interpretation of this statement unpleasant or not purposeful? Then let's talk about our intentions and motivations that lead us to deal with questions of an InterNet and to talk and write about it. When we talk about construction principles, we are not yet talking about the details of the components that are needed for it and how they can be created. Every manufacturing process rests on 3 phases: Design, Construction and Manufacturing. We are actually back in the design phase because we can or might recognize that what has been created over the last few decades is not fit for purpose. So it was a design failure from the beginning. with kind regards, willi Asuncion, Paraguay original in german ---------------------------------------------------- Liebe freunde, ich bin sehr erstaunt ueber die Leidenschaft in dieser Diskussion, sich auf Nebenschauplaetzen zu versammeln, statt sich den Hauptfragen zu widmen. Nach wie vor steht die Aussage von Andrew Sullivan von ISOC im Raum: "The Internet have to be for everyone". And from a member of the IETF-maillist: "Internet, from the people, for the people ..." Schon 2016 wurde dieser Text veroeffentlicht, den ich am Anfang dieser email verlinkt habe: "Internet Fragmentation: An Overview." Auf Seite 10 lesen wir: "From a technical standpoint, the original shared vision guiding the Internet=92s development was that every device on the Internet should be able to exchange data packets with any other device that was willing to receive them. ..." Und schon in unserer 1. Diskussion 2016 zum Thema Internet auf der globalen policy-liste von ISOC war kein relevantes Interesse zu erkennen, die Grundproblematik in der Konstruktion eines Internet anzusprechen. Wenn private und staatliche Interessen dominieren, kann niemals etwas entstehen, das fuer die Gemeinschaften der Menschen wirken soll. Es bleibt dann ein fragmentiertes Gebilde, wo nur individuale Interessen realisiert werden sollen. Und da sind wir immer noch. Wir sehen heute, wie katastrophal dieser Weg ist. Die russische Foederation hat diesem Irrsinn nun einen Stop gesetzt, indem sie die Militarisierung und Faschisierung von Eurasien beendet. Und wir sehen in der Nahrungsmittelversorgung die Konsequenzen, wenn die Regionen nicht auf ihre Souveraenitaet und Autonomie achten. Welthandel und globale oekonomische Verschraenkung ist Teil des grossen Bloedsinns, den sich die Menschen ausgedacht haben. Auch das roemische Imperium ist daran gescheitert. Und das US-Dollar-Imperium wird auch daran scheitern. Wir, als Akteure fuer eine freie globale Kommunikation der Menschen dieses Planeten brauchen keine Privatisierung und staatlichen Kontrollwahn. Der Etatismus wird begraben. Wir brauchen die kreative Entfaltung der lokalen und regionalen Potentiale. Auch wenn die Telekommunikation kein Lebensmittel ist, so ist sie doch die Vorraussetzung fuer unseren freien Austausch der theoretischen Grundlagen und unserer Konstruktionsideen, um all jenes herstellen zu koennen, was wir wirklich brauchen. Und immer dort, wo es auch gebraucht wird. Die Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet ist unser Instrument, um unsere Fragmentisierung der Menschen in Ethnien und spachliche und kulturelle Raeume zu ueberwinden, um allen Menschen die Moeglichkeit zu geben, ihre stabilen materiellen Lebensgrundlagen gemaess unserer natuerlichen Existenzbedingungen selbst herstellen zu koennen. Ihr seht, ich beziehe mich hier eindeutig und ohne Kompromisse auf die Aussage von Andrew Sullivan. Vielleicht ist manchem von euch meine Interpretation dieser Aussage unangenehm oder nicht zielfuehrend? Dann lasst uns ueber unsere Intentionen und Motivationen sprechen, die uns veranlassen, uns mit fragen eines InterNet zu beschaeftigen und drueber zu sprechen und zu schreiben. Wenn wir ueber Konstruktionsprinzipien sprechen, dann geht es noch nicht um die Details der Komponenten, die dafuer gebraucht werden und wie sie entstehen koennen. Jeder Herstellungsprozess ruht auf 3 Phasen: Design/Entwurf, Konstruktion und Herstellung. Wir befinden uns eigentlich wieder in der Entwurfsphase, weil wir erkennen koennen oder koennten, dass das, was die letzten Jahrzehnte entstanden ist, nicht tauglich ist. Es war also von Anfang an ein Entwurfsfehler. mit lieben Gruessen, willi Asuncion, Paraguay _______________________________________________ To manage your Internet Society subscriptions or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. - View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/= become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ --_000_PH0PR06MB79982976C11470327EA2C264D91E9PH0PR06MB7998namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I.M.H.O. : This is a fallacy from the beggining. Maybe was a nice idealism.= . very altruistic and selfless.

But the true is there for everyone to see.

Why should we think that Internet must be of and for everybody?

Is that more important than the Human Health? or the Food? (not for free, n= ot for everyone)

By the moment, the only thing that we can consume freely is the Air..= . Al the other "basic" needs are rated and have a cost..
Is sad, but is true.

Access to technology will be always reserved for some portion of the human = kind. There are lots of people who don=B4t have access to food.. or even wa= ter... They are not concerned about Internet, for sure... But there are a l= ot of others who didn=B4t have access to basic tools, like a hammer or a spade...

So, the "formula" is very simple: If you have enough resources to= live in the current culture without worries about food and roof needs (and= other basics), then "you are in" (if you want invest on that).&n= bsp;

Then, access to technology is costly. If you can have this access, then som= eone is receiving something in exchange.

And there is when the Internet stops be of all and for all. And there is wh= en the "control" begins.

No matter if it is on a Governement hands, or a Private entity.

Until the entire Human race enter on the next Kardashov civilization age (t= ype II) we will continue to be "energy provider" dependent, and t= hat=B4s include all related technologies involved with electrical energy (T= elecomm, Internet, etc.)

To have Internet free for all, we need to have Energy free for all first.

That=B4s is my comment about. Sorry if it is not "nice" or "= kindly".

Axel Abad.-

De: InternetPolicy <inte= rnetpolicy-bounces@elists.isoc.org> en nombre de willi uebelherr via Int= ernetPolicy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org>
Enviado: lunes, 28 de marzo de 2022 15:47
Para: ISOC Internet Policy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org> Cc: IRTF discuss <irtf-discuss@irtf.org>; IETF discussion <= ietf@ietf.org>; IGF governance <governance@lists.igcaucus.org>
Asunto: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Und= ermine the Internet

Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet
Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022
https:= //www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-calls-to-u= ndermine-the-internet/

Internet Fragmentation: An Overview
William Drake, Vinton Cerf, Wolfgang Kleinw=E4chter
01.2016
https://www3.weforum.org/doc= s/WEF_FII_Internet_Fragmentation_An_Overview_2016.pdf

Dear friends,

i am very surprised at the passion in this discussion to gather on side issues instead of addressing the main issues.

The statement by Andrew Sullivan from ISOC still stands:
"The Internet have to be for everyone".

And from a member of the IETF-maillist:
"Internet, from the people, for the people ..."

Already in 2016 this text was published, which I linked at the beginning of this email:
"Internet Fragmentation: An Overview."

On page 10 we read:
"From a technical standpoint, the original shared vision guiding the <= br> Internet's development was that every device on the Internet should be
able to exchange data packets with any other device that was willing to receive them. ..."

And even in our 1st discussion in 2016 on the topic of the Internet on
ISOC's global policy list, there was no relevant interest to address the basic problem in the construction of an Internet.

When private and governmental interests dominate, nothing can ever
emerge that is intended to work for communities of people. It then
remains a fragmented entity where only individual interests are to be
realized. And there we are still.

We see today how disastrous this way is. The Russian Federation has now put a stop to this madness by ending the militarization and fascization of Eurasia.

And we see in the food supply the consequences of regions not respecting their sovereignty and autonomy. World trade and global economic
constriction is part of the great nonsense that people have come up
with. The Roman Empire also failed in this. And the US dollar empire
will also fail.

We, as actors for a free global communication of the people of this
planet, do not need privatization and state control mania. Etatism will be buried.

We need the creative development of local and regional potentials. Even if telecommunication is not a food, it is the prerequisite for our free exchange of theoretical bases and our construction ideas, in order to be able to produce all that we really need. And always there, where it is
also needed.

The telecommunication in the form of an Internet is our instrument to
overcome our fragmentation of the people into ethnic groups and
linguistic and cultural spaces, in order to give to all people the
possibility to be able to produce their stable material bases of life
according to our natural conditions of existence.

You see, I refer here clearly and without compromise to the statement of Andrew Sullivan. Maybe some of you find my interpretation of this
statement unpleasant or not purposeful? Then let's talk about our
intentions and motivations that lead us to deal with questions of an
InterNet and to talk and write about it.

When we talk about construction principles, we are not yet talking about the details of the components that are needed for it and how they can be created. Every manufacturing process rests on 3 phases:
Design, Construction and Manufacturing.

We are actually back in the design phase because we can or might
recognize that what has been created over the last few decades is not
fit for purpose. So it was a design failure from the beginning.

with kind regards, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

original in german ----------------------------------------------------

Liebe freunde,

ich bin sehr erstaunt ueber die Leidenschaft in dieser Diskussion, sich auf Nebenschauplaetzen zu versammeln, statt sich den Hauptfragen zu widmen.=

Nach wie vor steht die Aussage von Andrew Sullivan von ISOC im Raum:
"The Internet have to be for everyone".

And from a member of the IETF-maillist:
"Internet, from the people, for the people ..."

Schon 2016 wurde dieser Text veroeffentlicht, den ich am Anfang dieser
email verlinkt habe:
"Internet Fragmentation: An Overview."

Auf Seite 10 lesen wir:
"From a technical standpoint, the original shared vision guiding the <= br> Internet=92s development was that every device on the Internet should be able to exchange data packets with any other device that was willing to receive them. ..."

Und schon in unserer 1. Diskussion 2016 zum Thema Internet auf der
globalen policy-liste von ISOC war kein relevantes Interesse zu
erkennen, die Grundproblematik in der Konstruktion eines Internet
anzusprechen.

Wenn private und staatliche Interessen dominieren, kann niemals etwas
entstehen, das fuer die Gemeinschaften der Menschen wirken soll. Es
bleibt dann ein fragmentiertes Gebilde, wo nur individuale Interessen
realisiert werden sollen. Und da sind wir immer noch.

Wir sehen heute, wie katastrophal dieser Weg ist. Die russische
Foederation hat diesem Irrsinn nun einen Stop gesetzt, indem sie die
Militarisierung und Faschisierung von Eurasien beendet.

Und wir sehen in der Nahrungsmittelversorgung die Konsequenzen, wenn die Regionen nicht auf ihre Souveraenitaet und Autonomie achten. Welthandel und globale oekonomische Verschraenkung ist Teil des grossen Bloedsinns, den sich die Menschen ausgedacht haben. Auch das roemische Imperium ist daran gescheitert. Und das US-Dollar-Imperium wird auch daran scheitern.
Wir, als Akteure fuer eine freie globale Kommunikation der Menschen
dieses Planeten brauchen keine Privatisierung und staatlichen
Kontrollwahn. Der Etatismus wird begraben.

Wir brauchen die kreative Entfaltung der lokalen und regionalen
Potentiale. Auch wenn die Telekommunikation kein Lebensmittel ist, so
ist sie doch die Vorraussetzung fuer unseren freien Austausch der
theoretischen Grundlagen und unserer Konstruktionsideen, um all jenes
herstellen zu koennen, was wir wirklich brauchen. Und immer dort, wo es auch gebraucht wird.

Die Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet ist unser Instrument, um
unsere Fragmentisierung der Menschen in Ethnien und spachliche und
kulturelle Raeume zu ueberwinden, um allen Menschen die Moeglichkeit zu geben, ihre stabilen materiellen Lebensgrundlagen gemaess unserer
natuerlichen Existenzbedingungen selbst herstellen zu koennen.

Ihr seht, ich beziehe mich hier eindeutig und ohne Kompromisse auf die
Aussage von Andrew Sullivan. Vielleicht ist manchem von euch meine
Interpretation dieser Aussage unangenehm oder nicht zielfuehrend? Dann
lasst uns ueber unsere Intentionen und Motivationen sprechen, die uns
veranlassen, uns mit fragen eines InterNet zu beschaeftigen und drueber zu sprechen und zu schreiben.

Wenn wir ueber Konstruktionsprinzipien sprechen, dann geht es noch nicht um die Details der Komponenten, die dafuer gebraucht werden und wie sie entstehen koennen. Jeder Herstellungsprozess ruht auf 3 Phasen:
Design/Entwurf, Konstruktion und Herstellung.

Wir befinden uns eigentlich wieder in der Entwurfsphase, weil wir
erkennen koennen oder koennten, dass das, was die letzten Jahrzehnte
entstanden ist, nicht tauglich ist. Es war also von Anfang an ein
Entwurfsfehler.

mit lieben Gruessen, willi
Asuncion, Paraguay

_______________________________________________
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--_000_PH0PR06MB79982976C11470327EA2C264D91E9PH0PR06MB7998namp_-- From nobody Tue Mar 29 10:31:49 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B77993A1B21 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 10:31:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pmB_fiIzcOYX for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 10:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5509B3A1B50 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 10:31:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1648575096; bh=R0AXmgGYeOTbj/QllKxpOybiL/Pej6lxBagYC68MaZM=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=cj1YT+neqnozqZVPmI5FCxreuic5+1G50HDu2JT7/zIF86I4z1DapW09gAHVFFZj2 UVIlWAejsqxmzRQQvaRLYb4zDV3+09RV66ZGT4pU1UsPnJlg2j59YiDs1Z57gK4HHI 2HTV+sVkx0I9incNe2+/2z/OVClvHR8gxHPt/y3A= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.233.112] ([185.236.167.136]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MeCtZ-1o8rku3XwF-00bK3b for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 19:31:35 +0200 Message-ID: <992729cd-555c-e751-73f6-68c5c8cd98b6@gmx.at> Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 19:31:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet To: ietf@ietf.org References: From: "Scheffenegger, Richard" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Uuk1eiAIAkukAFGV1KZJABqGgiZsoz0/CFybzs75Y0oNxsNmBGJ 2kjziZe9CtiN82i8Cp6L7lo7+jQYryLVEbUHyiDAle/f/EDOm/gXnPrXNug7bOiAq57oOm3 lacBwL1DimCkVTC3FTWim8wvPj3IgoZvhUgLEjtjADoyRZsZhDoHqkbm3DLFPGvxyD7oUer T4KyoMZ0RMREfTMurWIYg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:AmYBMNGCS7M=:IwQ+9LVQ1s8KiWptuVIwQP Dy/gUbMiHoKB7HiW2xHXR5nGHwjbcbcTyACCQdIqOVJbHw58rp7qVRIvbIpCiOShrykTDxPnS DcLkQZgK+hxHOLVLgYNqiKt9/snoAr+NYnB5HAImLlZcXiiGzGH8YNZy5k3KLdLqnkC46M6Bs hp0o1rGOGG0W/g/uAcq3B7eX/UtW/78LG5IkZ4OBthL26dSnYImZHWIdyMqRhnuHPl1sps2r4 UjdZudWXFKQgXeZpXLwoyqb5wvyBUke1MFQNuxeK41/kRiRYFxjS+LkaRuIvA3a01phWRsyP0 /hUv4JZkZbjc3E0ZOh19fXOUIqSk8NhJbu39jdCwxt334WX0bgOjDIrSLUX0ThOY+Tni/Bcnz nlXsbc1c3Uy8RH3Fpt8fP3VgZXgrTCO79hQufTflD5qOVKvClFE2rFo47/9bZoJy4fuIFrPit YU10+rPH0CSmcRVMCp7yCtITMP7Bk9XJJNs4FxpGa8+DR7v+R8PLITu1a/epGxoGGexCy9Cq7 Sr1y9uJI/aKUuTWABKpCi/gJlNWq0+dD5K/bjjrTzTx7BFGaU1587zEZZkHL2SDz/joFWOwrd JENdJKKO1o0F5MbAhhuOwF2FzPjGdHhepkhlhadcASdNmIcufMpt+fy0LWwHqRJatGneQPn3N ZbNMVBQSjMVxLoNh1jZq9Yc3EySxnVpbGaRWv/+27u3f0wHLPqg0w20a/VGcXRGskBfJAbluV PvXRYAmR2wp9SWGrWfu2kfSqi25SQoarX6JOr55Hh2kJ8pvsREtbdAsJ0agqjQMXobKbOfOYI cq91EqhzN2EQl7xbz3/SpxEYCTc7vfFJyj+oKckRi/7cf27CMZ5f36h/eej0k+hCl+/pp6BKp qmEyS+KLfcZ7i/1lhwTzQcYY1/VhicTW4vOJUhhoko/eqHfi1KNE9RruO3RbYFhCa3GSzGyJI 6aYAG0JdNp8o8D6ZlRoFUPqULdPyNxYfKrLn6P20SgbJRwSanj62G/yJrZjhCC9gIzI9PBQtM 50HM5Uv+GoG9HCvoC1/Ypyh6yLZtWfcBQIkIwED2E7d3i2/cx26WjDNUYTQL4kiad5AgNcONP r2f241YhpazgOM= Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 17:31:48 -0000 To be pedantic, humanity has not even managed Kardashov level 1. At current energy consumtion rate, we manage a 0.73. (For reference, at level 2, each and every member of the human race would consume more than the energy, that we as a global society are currently using in total - or with other words, each human would control power similar to the current global scale). Couldn't resist. Am 29.03.2022 um 14:29 schrieb Axel Abad: > I.M.H.O. : This is a fallacy from the beggining. Maybe was a nice > idealism.. very altruistic and selfless. > > But the true is there for everyone to see. > > Why=C2=A0 should we think that Internet must be of and for everybody? > Is that more important than the Human Health? or the Food? (not for > free, not for everyone) > > By the moment, the only thing that we can consume freely=C2=A0 is the Ai= r... > Al the other "basic" needs are rated and have a cost.. > Is sad, but is true. > > Access to technology will be always reserved for some portion of the > human kind. There are lots of people who don=C2=B4t have access to food.= . or > even water... They are not concerned about Internet, for sure... But > there are a lot of others who didn=C2=B4t have access to basic tools, li= ke a > hammer or a spade... > > So, the "formula" is very simple: If you have enough resources to live > in the current culture without worries about food and roof needs (and > other basics), then "you are in" (if you want invest on that). > > Then, access to technology is costly. If you can have this access, then > someone is receiving something in exchange. > And there is when the Internet stops be of all and for all. And there is > when the "control" begins. > No matter if it is on a Governement hands, or a Private entity. > > Until the entire Human race enter on the next Kardashov civilization age > (type II) we will continue to be "energy provider" dependent, and that= =C2=B4s > include all related technologies involved with electrical energy > (Telecomm, Internet, etc.) > > To have Internet free for all, we need to have Energy free for all first= . > > That=C2=B4s is my comment about. Sorry if it is not "nice" or "kindly". > > Axel Abad.- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *De:* InternetPolicy en nombre > de willi uebelherr via InternetPolicy > *Enviado:* lunes, 28 de marzo de 2022 15:47 > *Para:* ISOC Internet Policy > *Cc:* IRTF discuss ; IETF discussion > ; IGF governance > *Asunto:* Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to > Undermine the Internet > > Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet > Andrew Sullivan, 02.03.2022 > https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist-c= alls-to-undermine-the-internet/ > > > Internet Fragmentation: An Overview > William Drake, Vinton Cerf, Wolfgang Kleinw=C3=A4chter > 01.2016 > https://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_FII_Internet_Fragmentation_An_Overview= _2016.pdf > > > Dear friends, > > i am very surprised at the passion in this discussion to gather on side > issues instead of addressing the main issues. > > The statement by Andrew Sullivan from ISOC still stands: > "The Internet have to be for everyone". > > And from a member of the IETF-maillist: > "Internet, from the people, for the people ..." > > Already in 2016 this text was published, which I linked at the beginning > of this email: > "Internet Fragmentation: An Overview." > > On page 10 we read: > "From a technical standpoint, the original shared vision guiding the > Internet's development was that every device on the Internet should be > able to exchange data packets with any other device that was willing to > receive them. ..." > > And even in our 1st discussion in 2016 on the topic of the Internet on > ISOC's global policy list, there was no relevant interest to address the > basic problem in the construction of an Internet. > > When private and governmental interests dominate, nothing can ever > emerge that is intended to work for communities of people. It then > remains a fragmented entity where only individual interests are to be > realized. And there we are still. > > We see today how disastrous this way is. The Russian Federation has now > put a stop to this madness by ending the militarization and fascization > of Eurasia. > > And we see in the food supply the consequences of regions not respecting > their sovereignty and autonomy. World trade and global economic > constriction is part of the great nonsense that people have come up > with. The Roman Empire also failed in this. And the US dollar empire > will also fail. > > We, as actors for a free global communication of the people of this > planet, do not need privatization and state control mania. Etatism will > be buried. > > We need the creative development of local and regional potentials. Even > if telecommunication is not a food, it is the prerequisite for our free > exchange of theoretical bases and our construction ideas, in order to be > able to produce all that we really need. And always there, where it is > also needed. > > The telecommunication in the form of an Internet is our instrument to > overcome our fragmentation of the people into ethnic groups and > linguistic and cultural spaces, in order to give to all people the > possibility to be able to produce their stable material bases of life > according to our natural conditions of existence. > > You see, I refer here clearly and without compromise to the statement of > Andrew Sullivan. Maybe some of you find my interpretation of this > statement unpleasant or not purposeful? Then let's talk about our > intentions and motivations that lead us to deal with questions of an > InterNet and to talk and write about it. > > When we talk about construction principles, we are not yet talking about > the details of the components that are needed for it and how they can be > created. Every manufacturing process rests on 3 phases: > Design, Construction and Manufacturing. > > We are actually back in the design phase because we can or might > recognize that what has been created over the last few decades is not > fit for purpose. So it was a design failure from the beginning. > > with kind regards, willi > Asuncion, Paraguay > > > original in german ---------------------------------------------------- > > Liebe freunde, > > ich bin sehr erstaunt ueber die Leidenschaft in dieser Diskussion, sich > auf Nebenschauplaetzen zu versammeln, statt sich den Hauptfragen zu widm= en. > > Nach wie vor steht die Aussage von Andrew Sullivan von ISOC im Raum: > "The Internet have to be for everyone". > > And from a member of the IETF-maillist: > "Internet, from the people, for the people ..." > > Schon 2016 wurde dieser Text veroeffentlicht, den ich am Anfang dieser > email verlinkt habe: > "Internet Fragmentation: An Overview." > > Auf Seite 10 lesen wir: > "From a technical standpoint, the original shared vision guiding the > Internet=E2=80=99s development was that every device on the Internet sho= uld be > able to exchange data packets with any other device that was willing to > receive them. ..." > > Und schon in unserer 1. Diskussion 2016 zum Thema Internet auf der > globalen policy-liste von ISOC war kein relevantes Interesse zu > erkennen, die Grundproblematik in der Konstruktion eines Internet > anzusprechen. > > Wenn private und staatliche Interessen dominieren, kann niemals etwas > entstehen, das fuer die Gemeinschaften der Menschen wirken soll. Es > bleibt dann ein fragmentiertes Gebilde, wo nur individuale Interessen > realisiert werden sollen. Und da sind wir immer noch. > > Wir sehen heute, wie katastrophal dieser Weg ist. Die russische > Foederation hat diesem Irrsinn nun einen Stop gesetzt, indem sie die > Militarisierung und Faschisierung von Eurasien beendet. > > Und wir sehen in der Nahrungsmittelversorgung die Konsequenzen, wenn die > Regionen nicht auf ihre Souveraenitaet und Autonomie achten. Welthandel > und globale oekonomische Verschraenkung ist Teil des grossen Bloedsinns, > den sich die Menschen ausgedacht haben. Auch das roemische Imperium ist > daran gescheitert. Und das US-Dollar-Imperium wird auch daran scheitern. > > Wir, als Akteure fuer eine freie globale Kommunikation der Menschen > dieses Planeten brauchen keine Privatisierung und staatlichen > Kontrollwahn. Der Etatismus wird begraben. > > Wir brauchen die kreative Entfaltung der lokalen und regionalen > Potentiale. Auch wenn die Telekommunikation kein Lebensmittel ist, so > ist sie doch die Vorraussetzung fuer unseren freien Austausch der > theoretischen Grundlagen und unserer Konstruktionsideen, um all jenes > herstellen zu koennen, was wir wirklich brauchen. Und immer dort, wo es > auch gebraucht wird. > > Die Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet ist unser Instrument, um > unsere Fragmentisierung der Menschen in Ethnien und spachliche und > kulturelle Raeume zu ueberwinden, um allen Menschen die Moeglichkeit zu > geben, ihre stabilen materiellen Lebensgrundlagen gemaess unserer > natuerlichen Existenzbedingungen selbst herstellen zu koennen. > > Ihr seht, ich beziehe mich hier eindeutig und ohne Kompromisse auf die > Aussage von Andrew Sullivan. Vielleicht ist manchem von euch meine > Interpretation dieser Aussage unangenehm oder nicht zielfuehrend? Dann > lasst uns ueber unsere Intentionen und Motivationen sprechen, die uns > veranlassen, uns mit fragen eines InterNet zu beschaeftigen und drueber > zu sprechen und zu schreiben. > > Wenn wir ueber Konstruktionsprinzipien sprechen, dann geht es noch nicht > um die Details der Komponenten, die dafuer gebraucht werden und wie sie > entstehen koennen. Jeder Herstellungsprozess ruht auf 3 Phasen: > Design/Entwurf, Konstruktion und Herstellung. > > Wir befinden uns eigentlich wieder in der Entwurfsphase, weil wir > erkennen koennen oder koennten, dass das, was die letzten Jahrzehnte > entstanden ist, nicht tauglich ist. Es war also von Anfang an ein > Entwurfsfehler. > > mit lieben Gruessen, willi > Asuncion, Paraguay > > _______________________________________________ > To manage your Internet Society subscriptions > or unsubscribe, log into the Member Portal at > https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login > > and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. > - > View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: > https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ > From nobody Tue Mar 29 12:16:49 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 933D13A1B82 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 12:16:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gVG8gbWFuYWdlIHlvdXIgSW50ZXJu ZXQgU29jaWV0eSBzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIG9yIHVuc3Vic2NyaWJlLCBsb2cgaW50byANCj4gdGhl IE1lbWJlciBQb3J0YWwgYXQgDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vYWRtaW4uaW50ZXJuZXRzb2NpZXR5Lm9yZy82 MjI2MTkvVXNlci9Mb2dpbg0KPiA8aHR0cHM6Ly9hZG1pbi5pbnRlcm5ldHNvY2lldHkub3JnLzYy MjYxOS9Vc2VyL0xvZ2luPg0KPiBhbmQgZ28gdG8gdGhlIFByZWZlcmVuY2VzIHRhYiB3aXRoaW4g eW91ciBwcm9maWxlLg0KPiAtDQo+IFZpZXcgdGhlIEludGVybmV0IFNvY2lldHkgQ29kZSBvZiBD b25kdWN0Og0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pbnRlcm5ldHNvY2lldHkub3JnL2JlY29tZS1hLW1lbWJl ci9jb2RlLW9mLWNvbmR1Y3QvDQo+IDxodHRwczovL3d3dy5pbnRlcm5ldHNvY2lldHkub3JnL2Jl Y29tZS1hLW1lbWJlci9jb2RlLW9mLWNvbmR1Y3QvPg0KDQo= From nobody Wed Mar 30 00:43:25 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CE403A0E60 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 00:43:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.117 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.117 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ws8w-s-fNjET for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 00:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.alvestrand.no (unknown [IPv6:2a01:4f9:c010:a44b::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E0E03A0E5C for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 00:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.3.157] (unknown [78.156.11.215]) by smtp.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 340F93FC7E for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 09:43:14 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 09:43:13 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.6.2 Subject: Re: [113attendees] HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call for participation Content-Language: en-US To: ietf@ietf.org References: <742921.1647943041@dooku> <7B65A69DADBC0BCC329CF059@PSB> <825440.1647955471@dooku> From: Harald Alvestrand In-Reply-To: <825440.1647955471@dooku> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 07:43:23 -0000 On 3/22/22 14:24, Michael Richardson wrote: > John C Klensin wrote: > > I actually don't think it interacts much with 2026 although I do wonder > > It's not so much that it interacts with 2026,etc. so much as that those > documents are wrong. RFC 2026 is from 1996, given its extreme age I'd say that it has weathered surprisingly well. In my opinion, stuff like HotRFC or *DISPATCH WGs doesn't need to - and *shouldn't* - be embedded in procedure documents. They belong in Tao-type Web pages that can - and will - be changed on a weekly or monthly basis. Formal rules, embedded in the "stone" of BCPs, should be the absolute minimum we need to function, and change rarely. (I have a bee in my bonnet about those Web page changes being trackable as to what they changed and who authorized the change - but no more formal than putting the sources in a Git-accessible repo would accomplish. Different discussion.) > > > is contributing to general delays and some people's sense that it is > > impossible to get real work done in the IETF in any efficient and > > timely way. > > I would say that it's contributing to a sense that people don't know what the > flavour of the day is. > > > While, as work-proposing mechanisms, the tone is certainly different > > (especially along the fear of being attacked dimension you mention), > > I'm not sure whether HotRFC is significantly different from the BarBOFs > > of yesteryear. > > Actual BarBOFs, in bars with napkins and beer (and no remote things to get in > the way), would be before HotRFC :-) > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > From nobody Wed Mar 30 04:51:48 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AD5C3A103E for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 04:51:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.116 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.116 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6gFoX7AReEOU for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 04:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (unknown [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6AE33A103A for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 04:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A348C4092773; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 04:51:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WhYX7c0EyObl; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 04:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [89.213.27.95]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 07393409251E; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 04:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 $3693.40.0.1.81$) Subject: Re: [113attendees] HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call for participation From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 12:51:37 +0100 Cc: ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <742921.1647943041@dooku> <7B65A69DADBC0BCC329CF059@PSB> <825440.1647955471@dooku> To: Harald Alvestrand X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 11:51:46 -0000 > On 30/03/2022, at 8:43 AM, Harald Alvestrand = wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 3/22/22 14:24, Michael Richardson wrote: >> John C Klensin wrote: >> > I actually don't think it interacts much with 2026 although I = do wonder >>=20 >> It's not so much that it interacts with 2026,etc. so much as that = those >> documents are wrong. >=20 > RFC 2026 is from 1996, given its extreme age I'd say that it has = weathered surprisingly well. >=20 > In my opinion, stuff like HotRFC or *DISPATCH WGs doesn't need to - = and *shouldn't* - be embedded in procedure documents. They belong in = Tao-type Web pages that can - and will - be changed on a weekly or = monthly basis. >=20 > Formal rules, embedded in the "stone" of BCPs, should be the absolute = minimum we need to function, and change rarely. >=20 > (I have a bee in my bonnet about those Web page changes being = trackable as to what they changed and who authorized the change - but no = more formal than putting the sources in a Git-accessible repo would = accomplish. Different discussion.) Do you mean https://github.com/ietf/tao ? Jay >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> > is contributing to general delays and some people's sense that = it is >> > impossible to get real work done in the IETF in any efficient = and >> > timely way. >>=20 >> I would say that it's contributing to a sense that people don't know = what the >> flavour of the day is. >>=20 >> > While, as work-proposing mechanisms, the tone is certainly = different >> > (especially along the fear of being attacked dimension you = mention), >> > I'm not sure whether HotRFC is significantly different from the = BarBOFs >> > of yesteryear. >>=20 >> Actual BarBOFs, in bars with napkins and beer (and no remote things = to get in >> the way), would be before HotRFC :-) >>=20 >> -- >> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Wed Mar 30 13:14:50 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E5883A0D4E; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 13:14:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AVPH9XOd2Ges; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 13:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1033.google.com (mail-pj1-x1033.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1033]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 872FB3A17BA; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 13:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1033.google.com with SMTP id o3-20020a17090a3d4300b001c6bc749227so1241010pjf.1; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 13:12:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dm23ozVKscVvW9bPoqgzCTYE/KJpcpmH25vUfHx9qRo=; b=Cldt8De4sBmNEHDHbhNPxcpsP8h3QPThz/X1yViOeUkHbNgVFtA6YFaZhnRcZ5Hr/C n4BShF7hHF/JAPucFBwttBxgE3IB+2v9BDzHqeva125xIGx+SbjbWnokYoHFxyk//Q81 +tfyv8EIrmoMn4Q/39M5RKsxLDxcii0xLbXqkEG/sNF7MxTA1VV8klA3ougfJNUKlqBW pJjHxmHsC7hXlOk/ZQkADHlSXBZzpid08LuRIvMtJ/F7i3MfioOYO5xoCbayJONcxB26 mW3FHW/5CKxEw4ZoA1aw5XD6KG9HN3DoS3JP9hmit/cAYEvPXXH8sms2NcppCwgYYxAf 1Mgg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=dm23ozVKscVvW9bPoqgzCTYE/KJpcpmH25vUfHx9qRo=; b=eIJvnotFRP4bG410QBL1OFUc+WfjibDgH0ePisGbQRTqjzI2vAY0Sr+gll2rdNtirf icGZpDD+QbBIJslGOFuRxOdnHIxFEkBcJ9GpeYOL8wNCdEuc3nSS9OsNXMED7mtsFoFp 5xdxhSTAbBMCoM1CSTIL3Yjemb2cwQsImsOMcwT+FReF+/mhO8yAPZyn4g5Kso6zKLvr DU5auL0jQ6Hqyi2QVh3UGSEqnlVZH9OvsRdz7kAdyDV4ZoRkekNs4DUfulbl6w3e3c4H 1979avTDJ2oIqvNsB8cYV4YJq7uDbu3umaX3Lq1FIAPLwZi6+W2e4W9ukoukMxulEjaN hc7A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530pDt+qOVeX+snlCm6LTt/PlABl1V3ZPmmsXCxouPX7Gfd8w9iQ 4/hdvMcNf8lKMGAGEqW2A8ikEvEuBIs7Ow== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzGyNXzhnF6Z4BCNf00/fIbcX/Uops87Nx4Okz07WT94T8fIA3kcztUg8dihtJsXe0aYpSnTQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:d2cd:b0:154:38c5:f91d with SMTP id n13-20020a170902d2cd00b0015438c5f91dmr1126695plc.59.1648671176544; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 13:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1005:b501:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1005:b501:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id lr6-20020a17090b4b8600b001c7730210e5sm8566456pjb.6.2022.03.30.13.12.54 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 30 Mar 2022 13:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [113attendees] HotRFC at IETF-113 -- 2nd call for participation To: Jay Daley , Harald Alvestrand Cc: ietf@ietf.org References: <742921.1647943041@dooku> <7B65A69DADBC0BCC329CF059@PSB> <825440.1647955471@dooku> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <93dc2f19-2450-d1a0-416c-831794710b73@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 09:12:52 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 20:14:47 -0000 On 31-Mar-22 00:51, Jay Daley wrote: > > >> On 30/03/2022, at 8:43 AM, Harald Alvestrand wrote: >> >> >> On 3/22/22 14:24, Michael Richardson wrote: >>> John C Klensin wrote: >>> > I actually don't think it interacts much with 2026 although I do wonder >>> >>> It's not so much that it interacts with 2026,etc. so much as that those >>> documents are wrong. >> >> RFC 2026 is from 1996, given its extreme age I'd say that it has weathered surprisingly well. >> >> In my opinion, stuff like HotRFC or *DISPATCH WGs doesn't need to - and *shouldn't* - be embedded in procedure documents. They belong in Tao-type Web pages that can - and will - be changed on a weekly or monthly basis. I'd go louder than "*shouldn't*". Even as loud as MUST NOT. Informality and flexibility at that stage of creating ideas is essential. >> >> Formal rules, embedded in the "stone" of BCPs, should be the absolute minimum we need to function, and change rarely. >> >> (I have a bee in my bonnet about those Web page changes being trackable as to what they changed and who authorized the change - but no more formal than putting the sources in a Git-accessible repo would accomplish. Different discussion.) > > Do you mean https://github.com/ietf/tao ? Jay, that serves as an audit trail but does *not* act as an open community discussion forum. We just discovered yesterday that some quite major changes to the Tao are considered "ready" by the very small group of contributors to that repo but have manifestly not been discussed by the community at large. Brian > > Jay > >> >> >>> >>> > is contributing to general delays and some people's sense that it is >>> > impossible to get real work done in the IETF in any efficient and >>> > timely way. >>> >>> I would say that it's contributing to a sense that people don't know what the >>> flavour of the day is. >>> >>> > While, as work-proposing mechanisms, the tone is certainly different >>> > (especially along the fear of being attacked dimension you mention), >>> > I'm not sure whether HotRFC is significantly different from the BarBOFs >>> > of yesteryear. >>> >>> Actual BarBOFs, in bars with napkins and beer (and no remote things to get in >>> the way), would be before HotRFC :-) >>> >>> -- >>> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works >>> -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- >>> >>> >>> >> > From nobody Wed Mar 30 15:57:08 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E26C3A115C for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 15:57:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ADf8WQF9LrxO for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 15:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2f.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 712EB3A1114 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 15:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2f.google.com with SMTP id l128so24049529vsc.7 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 15:57:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=DOuSgmgNr+cmoPiRUzqCE/YfY+nlhXylstVPTyGV8E0=; b=I9XmqmbUBcLPP8MWk4guzAdgwlVDU3Nc5RQAa2Z3b3+MvGhEHB01L2x0v47HRFCW0O NunMS2MbmLbH4nJ1+/EZbI0iAl7iL/vRCWo9jp4d/fyzoV4xRh7hj3YA+iU4SZsrOLb7 QQ6ygKoMEIvMbHwSgh7E3uHfPZ5u8+JJm6Bl3WZJvCHB/CPX/M9LvTcVFBaPfBWSHZmG jXDdR68kp2hlGEDwe/bdtzSmr3ylX16MruCXvY0Tcl6mI6HIXfDk7fP1reZzx2D4+aZM hN2BHwJz8iVY8+eOUzVjbbT2RP4ZpbZQY+DGiURDWj4ihcw7h3yCs6XoGPmTWuxgiAqd mFfA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=DOuSgmgNr+cmoPiRUzqCE/YfY+nlhXylstVPTyGV8E0=; b=W4wonsCjwORNfvBCmNid3+gB4yXLY6SXXB6GgXcKkfYTgvUbhTWBfn4txAeKEscDpk NNGz60oYF6mc6C2qw8RMT66jT8muIGBXwmbPpSlDLJ9eeur01poQrShCIx0m3p9CAGxL Kef1l7KgrJSA7jfUsMqq6CvfTMy4gEj/9vSGBctWA0oZFruivdc/0nrmBABOjc3zIsSS 44Q4+A0B7xAYiCsqpXwIfTQ5Duo5jQxPEpIlfUUc1sOBaxGF5O9Q20QCVWL+YPSl9odv a6ASvIVxREXIv/SD+3GLUVkwbHEIVFIyc/DTFw8Y2Xg4ODr3/u+4tPSy+I6vfnYiqEeQ vHUg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533+YGqBPS/KeYrNKsr/eK9FWlV75/KRq2NBHgJdQEF7gj/iDOwz Elgk2aM2+7xyCqHpi6i8HVE3XY0GfJn39ByBfrJyBBMHMQ0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyJZrif9+MIWCrdhKU8dM7W2rgOTl9dyGGjlclcwbX5nvLOLyPx4jkBrEojRG5HiGC+rIHwoBq4pZE0fpMZxFw= X-Received: by 2002:a67:fa5a:0:b0:325:d61b:8281 with SMTP id j26-20020a67fa5a000000b00325d61b8281mr1130667vsq.15.1648681018911; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 15:56:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 00:57:49 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: RFC Errata junk To: IETF Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007b007205db777653" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 22:57:06 -0000 --0000000000007b007205db777653 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, We are observing more and more bogus RFC Errata submissions which makes no sense technically. Some of them look like phishing attempts to get valid email addresses of those kind enough to respond to the author. Perhaps its time to require IETF login authentication before submitting RFC errata ? Interestingly the email addresses of folks reporting it are also never seen on any IETF WG list so that could also be a perhaps valid auto check. Kind regards, Robert --0000000000007b007205db777653 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

We are observing more and more bogu= s RFC Errata submissions which makes no sense technically.=C2=A0
=
Some of them look like phishing=C2=A0attempts to get valid e= mail addresses of those kind enough to respond to the author.=C2=A0

Perhaps its time to require IETF login authentication bef= ore submitting RFC errata ? Interestingly the email addresses of folks repo= rting it are also never seen on any IETF WG list so=C2=A0that=C2=A0could al= so be a perhaps valid auto check.=C2=A0

Kind regar= ds,
Robert

--0000000000007b007205db777653-- From nobody Wed Mar 30 18:09:37 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 138F43A0ACA for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 18:08:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PJVjlZnVA5fZ for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 18:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2919C3A0AA2 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 18:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1nZjIa-0007D8-92; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 21:08:28 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 21:08:21 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Robert Raszuk cc: IETF Discussion Subject: Re: RFC Errata junk Message-ID: <63B0FDB4074D63C79049050D@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 01:08:36 -0000 --On Thursday, March 31, 2022 00:57 +0200 Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hi, > > We are observing more and more bogus RFC Errata submissions > which makes no sense technically. > > Some of them look like phishing attempts to get valid email > addresses of those kind enough to respond to the author. > > Perhaps its time to require IETF login authentication before > submitting RFC errata ? Interestingly the email addresses of > folks reporting it are also never seen on any IETF WG list so > that could also be a perhaps valid auto check. I suggested this (after getting tangled up in one of those submissions) some days ago. To summarize John Levine's response and our discussion in the hope of saving time: * An effort is in progress to get a CAPCHA into the submission process. * If changes such as requiring an IETF login (as both you and I proposed) are desired, they probably have to await complete rebuilding of the RPC's tool set for which there is now an RFP in progress. * The RPC does try to remove these bogus submissions down after a few days so they don't clutter the permanent errata record. That suggests to me that waiting several days before responding to an errata report might represent good judgment and some protection against attacks (if they actually are attacks). best, john From nobody Thu Mar 31 01:50:45 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 982203A0598 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 01:50:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0YCW_B070pmQ for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 01:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk1-xa29.google.com (mail-vk1-xa29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F8153A05F0 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 01:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk1-xa29.google.com with SMTP id w123so12966956vkg.7 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 01:50:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pBCyNdACekJziH8qYBZMwX5U4opTg5lWVsWCocyatoY=; b=WRBI+8nf5j3whnzk1leNdqV7IRFKYKjh98IhSmWIvjK4owccvfR2prPjuB9Pa/j39+ HHPd5vCo6/k97WKfmhfAyK0cKwyAYq7q3KVNcSY8iFakN5K9xUZHo39fltl3Lofm7i1j vueb0flONxYOxZTWmMFOd4k83eMFRO2KQY4P2yAvsdGnJncYScykjWxtG8tGcPMzxvkw MpZNEU3zrp14c+K4E+/xvhEtj+KyJufvdrEo/a+d5fs36nRS3HKm/hwYxHYYycf2Za3h OTO7kM+Tc6Oobs+XnfgHvZvMwtDhZ46JmEkpSEEFZMAJsr4RCrFWjpsWvsKVSPQfE9b1 E4uw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pBCyNdACekJziH8qYBZMwX5U4opTg5lWVsWCocyatoY=; b=sqNA2mWPTyH+Luh+foqTBYlwZ4Fu7B4ID/lmhR2VIw0uds2gjwHwUywjPagD0YsCq7 rzcQ+Jisjx+7zPjqrvc0dxLHOM06Nifpdkb9njGeGf4Zjr5N/hcVfcOHuO8rGUI/Kh2F /hpbqmR51PaaLkQ6kWGAMpCuwLsWMvZvkoJ//or3CYG18ex78LFfzVfoD9kPacnBjPCt ebAUnTGoqY0iyEq3S43w8qFhDXWsw330L+t0+ccRMQUkcUQoRI1mfqF5WgvjjKYSupTw 4nDpj/P1YXWPKB7WSdZBPXI/WxhdwdM4nBc1Vp/ozfLQNtFxpNTLtqZNQDKvaGYL5MvS 3sxg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5307WtK1GqnT6W7t33+fHnKYjEbnqvIFNQAujAa4VAD8s0MgN+V7 e6BO3fzVtjsgtT3bemfu9hodD5xJCHfR3noKIYvE8+mCJCSxQQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy4uGuJ2UwMDdDiaSp/SYacOGZ0lQu9BYAZppKUfW36Gj/x1RXKpm8KkSSkoQalaFpVOU1abSM+QlBYcg5sbGY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:1354:b0:343:262f:c4c3 with SMTP id f20-20020a056122135400b00343262fc4c3mr15199095vkp.5.1648716634914; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 01:50:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <63B0FDB4074D63C79049050D@PSB> In-Reply-To: <63B0FDB4074D63C79049050D@PSB> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 10:51:26 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: RFC Errata junk To: John C Klensin Cc: IETF Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005c12bd05db7fc101" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 08:50:42 -0000 --0000000000005c12bd05db7fc101 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" John & all, Thank you everyone for the great update. I posted this question using RFC Errata as an example but I think the same level of vulnerability is also applicable to other IETF or various NOGs open tools. It seems generally that open Internet abuse continues and we (as communities of interest) effectively have two options - provide point protection on a one by one basis or use some form of preauthenticated security measures (transparent VPN) to isolate from the bots and malware increasingly coming from the open I. As far as RFC Errata IMHO - I think we could add 4th option - just like we do when submitting a draft requires confirmation by email. That may trim down the load of junk submissions and relieve RPC a bit from dealing with those. Cheers, Robert On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 3:08 AM John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On Thursday, March 31, 2022 00:57 +0200 Robert Raszuk > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > We are observing more and more bogus RFC Errata submissions > > which makes no sense technically. > > > > Some of them look like phishing attempts to get valid email > > addresses of those kind enough to respond to the author. > > > > Perhaps its time to require IETF login authentication before > > submitting RFC errata ? Interestingly the email addresses of > > folks reporting it are also never seen on any IETF WG list so > > that could also be a perhaps valid auto check. > > I suggested this (after getting tangled up in one of those > submissions) some days ago. To summarize John Levine's response > and our discussion in the hope of saving time: > > * An effort is in progress to get a CAPCHA into the submission > process. > > * If changes such as requiring an IETF login (as both you and I > proposed) are desired, they probably have to await complete > rebuilding of the RPC's tool set for which there is now an RFP > in progress. > > * The RPC does try to remove these bogus submissions down after > a few days so they don't clutter the permanent errata record. > That suggests to me that waiting several days before responding > to an errata report might represent good judgment and some > protection against attacks (if they actually are attacks). > > best, > john > > --0000000000005c12bd05db7fc101 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John & all,

Thank you everyone for = the great update. I posted this question using RFC Errata as an example=C2= =A0but I think the same level of vulnerability is also applicable to other= =C2=A0IETF or various NOGs open tools.=C2=A0

It se= ems generally that open Internet abuse continues and we (as communities of = interest) effectively have two options - provide point protection on a one = by one basis or use some form of preauthenticated security measures (transp= arent VPN) to isolate from the bots and malware increasingly coming from th= e open I.=C2=A0

As far as RFC Errata IMHO - I thin= k we could add 4th option - just like we do when submitting a draft require= s confirmation by email. That may trim down the load of junk=C2=A0submissio= ns=C2=A0and relieve=C2=A0RPC a bit from dealing with those.=C2=A0

Cheers,
Robert

On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 3:08 AM John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> wrote:

--On Thursday, March 31, 2022 00:57 +0200 Robert Raszuk
<robert@raszuk.ne= t> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> We are observing more and more bogus RFC Errata submissions
> which makes no sense technically.
>
> Some of them look like phishing attempts to get valid email
> addresses of those kind enough to respond to the author.
>
> Perhaps its time to require IETF login authentication before
> submitting RFC errata ? Interestingly the email addresses of
> folks reporting it are also never seen on any IETF WG list so
> that could also be a perhaps valid auto check.

I suggested this (after getting tangled up in one of those
submissions) some days ago.=C2=A0 To summarize John Levine's response and our discussion in the hope of saving time:

* An effort is in progress to get a CAPCHA into the submission
process.

* If changes such as requiring an IETF login (as both you and I
proposed) are desired, they probably have to await complete
rebuilding of the RPC's tool set for which there is now an RFP
in progress.

* The RPC does try to remove these bogus submissions down after
a few days so they don't clutter the permanent errata record.
That suggests to me that waiting several days before responding
to an errata report might represent good judgment and some
protection against attacks (if they actually are attacks).

=C2=A0best,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0john

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Thu, 31 Mar 2022 10:04:12 +0000 Subject: Re: RFC Errata junk To: John C Klensin , Robert Raszuk References: <63B0FDB4074D63C79049050D@PSB> Cc: IETF Discussion From: tom petch Message-ID: <62457C97.5070402@btconnect.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 11:04:07 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 In-Reply-To: <63B0FDB4074D63C79049050D@PSB> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ClientProxiedBy: LO4P123CA0014.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:150::19) To VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:800:18b::8) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: d0d7696e-9b3a-45cb-8c3d-08da12fdce6d X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: HE1PR0701MB2108:EE_ X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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Interestingly the email addresses of >> folks reporting it are also never seen on any IETF WG list so >> that could also be a perhaps valid auto check. > > I suggested this (after getting tangled up in one of those > submissions) some days ago. To summarize John Levine's response > and our discussion in the hope of saving time: > > * An effort is in progress to get a CAPCHA into the submission > process. > > * If changes such as requiring an IETF login (as both you and I > proposed) are desired, they probably have to await complete > rebuilding of the RPC's tool set for which there is now an RFP > in progress. > > * The RPC does try to remove these bogus submissions down after > a few days so they don't clutter the permanent errata record. > That suggests to me that waiting several days before responding > to an errata report might represent good judgment and some > protection against attacks (if they actually are attacks). My experience is that they are removed much more quickly than that and so are not much of a problem for users. I would resist the idea of a login, as Brian says. A three-way handshake would do, as would a CAPTCHA although I did see a report a few years ago that hackers could now defeat them. Tom Petch > > best, > john > > . > From nobody Thu Mar 31 08:53:45 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DA5B3A0541 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 17:16:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZjSzwh4j9GjB for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 17:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x435.google.com (mail-pf1-x435.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::435]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D926F3A0490 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 17:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x435.google.com with SMTP id z16so20373011pfh.3 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 17:16:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=txRKavXPISYJEGidgVCNkzjvgSTgwleH6U8yOjYynEA=; b=Bvm0j1SpijFxZE2qY+S1otLhuf/b2GXOQLY8qgbht5mHxUBxNKBqxvEvgk16UvOPeB R6KT4W4byWkNM+ekv2GBkY0k9dFYoNUWEVYTqLZjdS93v/9M88l1szE7VXv2Vz3zmhsc dkpi4X1GDKRHp9cOjTM/z1YgyKyRckOALrsPWsPWJMlsL8fIsBFyaBaZWIxjCxqayykg 1NaRsnDfYnY+JODV33aUptqmdK80xCvsyhIZ0nu9Xqu8bkF5oP13256RLG4h1sCCs+St qOLmmHTXBMMCFPmm6fztqeZQmSBdvmM08OlKv2sgRC+VdIICg5YslHACPqzmu10KGNDR uADQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=txRKavXPISYJEGidgVCNkzjvgSTgwleH6U8yOjYynEA=; b=yEagfdOac+xMGWvtrAKrQh2gGFnuFvpaWxR1Wb0QHsQO8pIWCRt2jdjeiE58ponkPx cK9UphTw6+FecYGskB+5Sl3hLL0mDOW1fmTGpMY7gd5qfv7LuVQJCvf2uRi5yLTCMjPi 6sKlRffbkLVzTqvn8XaJ34o0DTbjnHBsChYxovnHLCAU1UKNZH2t0Pe8HKmLhaMtBbfr 65QCVXu1RNsiYbxl47Fuy7TcZlXo63fN0QAqJxiSBbxwNgVsLKIFAqgkrWOd40WLynS9 UzO+Lu5fM4/OtRbLB7qqj7F6+xGMmeNo4SKz1HChXRfKcjvUX1oDep6SHx4V2EVGr+W6 VkXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5316k/X9UVCV/Uj2V4/r1IceZjQtWFCeMTF0PQ1EISOE96RMK1PL KH+sljCkkOIwiRzSJfow25U1Da4SD/bUhg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxfX5iTKrPmwQ5cGZfR4Qh9vIrk40uoRKcw7B6NlEIrAB3hJe7GLlxxklP3pPY925UZawCbDQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:9d8f:0:b0:398:dad:c3d8 with SMTP id i137-20020a639d8f000000b003980dadc3d8mr8426489pgd.228.1648685804599; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 17:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1005:b501:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1005:b501:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y22-20020a17090ad71600b001c9e5b945b2sm4582941pju.0.2022.03.30.17.16.41 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 30 Mar 2022 17:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: RFC Errata junk To: Robert Raszuk References: Cc: RFC Interest From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 13:16:39 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 08:53:41 -0700 X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 00:16:52 -0000 Hi Robert, On 31-Mar-22 11:57, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hi, >=20 > We are observing more and more bogus RFC Errata submissions which makes=20 no sense technically. >=20 > Some of them look like phishing=C2=A0attempts to get valid email addres= ses of those kind enough to respond to the author. >=20 > Perhaps its time to require IETF login authentication before submitting=20 RFC errata ? Interestingly the email addresses of folks reporting it are = also never seen on any IETF WG list so=C2=A0that=C2=A0could also be a per= haps valid auto check. But RFCs are not just for IETF readers. While I appreciate the problem, t= he solution has to work for anybody. Also - because this is not an IETF issue - this discussion surely belongs=20 on rfc-interest. Brian From nobody Thu Mar 31 12:21:42 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB913A1E18 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 12:21:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.412 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.412 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.248, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.248, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2IgJb86K__hd for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 12:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f173.google.com (mail-yb1-f173.google.com [209.85.219.173]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A94453A1E15 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 12:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f173.google.com with SMTP id m67so1178812ybm.4 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 12:21:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=G8iPjlWbIi3c6C4aPBs2OK3IPA17cphdgCJFX5F/AWo=; b=Aw77BpIXk0vQzK/LarGJKjvKoU+aQ8KmnKuFqjTXQWmuyEaNWT8HjMZm6WSbtOvPqM V0WM78KOPEvHdAqKGPkUEbrQsQk4G3W2vsrToWVTsX4SgTQh/k75PSG35AJ6VLG/mB+N Y1Ma8XS7x9m07qEVZlHT3gWoHIHXdngldOxexhGJbmSU0mVhcocJQCRAwZtaNzcxEt7b ba76Kh4W38E76GCt078e+iCtFyCJoGEMQtUxog4bWpgaSwmMWQjl4oeS6JdZrfJLucuQ jbcTOhTLHau+plct2Phj+kkHT9xmaM/PywiegkDdheRkhprlZB7t7b/1vtYg9zNzsjH/ +OvQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530XgI5e0mhYrmKguQTlgWox5A/cRJwlbi1m1I1PWL89rrfueGr7 bd1UTilo+SDkn+MQ9GpUXQfbcq/JkZJbra1A5+g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwIbAB3Olxfn/sJUCmGDX4hJHqHzYw0Rd8sqYrOLI0dZuZvDJ/LD/CIj/PKP04SOYaK9qCSpEvR5wAYjbPPTCc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:c8:b0:633:ee0c:bca2 with SMTP id i8-20020a05690200c800b00633ee0cbca2mr5723282ybs.82.1648754493758; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 12:21:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <992729cd-555c-e751-73f6-68c5c8cd98b6@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 15:21:23 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet To: Vasilenko Eduard Cc: "Scheffenegger, Richard" , "ietf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ec1f8805db889160" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 19:21:40 -0000 --000000000000ec1f8805db889160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have found precious few uses for a degree in nuclear physics other than pointing out nonsense. The speculative claims being made in the attached post are complete nonsense. They are also irrelevant to the IETF except in one respect: The international developments and the demand for energy that the post are responding too will create intense political demand to prohibit with extreme prejudice any and all technologies that rely on proof of work or proof of waste to function. There will thus be a demand for technologies that provide the same notarization benefits as Blockchain claims without the proof of waste. Such technologies could and should be pursued in IETF. My contribution in this area can be found here: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-hallambaker-mesh-callsign-01.html [Irrelevance follows] The folk pursuing nuclear fusion are aware of the need for tritium which is why they propose to manufacture it. That is incidentally the reason why merely achieving breakeven fusion power is insufficient, to be a viable power source, the fusion output needs to be approximately 100 to 1000 times the input. Muon catalyzed fusion fails for similar reasons. I think it highly unlikely that fusion power will be viable in the next 30 years but the people working on it do deserve a fair hearing. Equally, speculation about the viability of fission power from folk who admit being 'too lazy to dig into' the details seems superfluous. The engineers working on the Manhattan project chose uranium over thorium for good reason and those reasons have not changed. Path dependence is a powerful effect but the claim that thorium was overlooked out of ignorance is false, Electricity generation from renewable sources is a larger fraction of power generation than fission power both in the US and the EU. On pre-2022 trends, wind power will be the largest source in both by 2030. Those trends have greatly accelerated in response to recent events. The notion that technologies that are currently meeting 15% (EU) and 21% (US) of electricity generation cannot provide substantially more demands a fuller argument than pointing to the people suggesting that it can and denouncing them as dirty smelly hippies. Equally arguments based on how fast deployment of a technology has to grow based on a fraction of existing deployment without reference to the constraints are nonsense. The Web went from less than 1% of Internet users to 99% of users in less than a year, a 100 times increase. Oh and yes, an obligatory disclaimer, I do have substantial investments in renewable generation technologies. But rather than that being 'bias' I prefer to think of it as 'putting my money where my keyboard is'. On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 3:17 PM Vasilenko Eduard wrote: > Hi all, > Richard and Axel, > Unfortunately, civilization is moving right now to a dead end. > Because it is still a pure Hydrocarbon civilization (solar or wind are a > canned coal from China in reality - it is a fake that it brings anything > positive in the mankind balance). > But the return is smaller and smaller: initially, it was needed to spend = 1 > barrel to produce 100 barrels. > It is less and less productive now (I am lazy to dig exact numbers, a few > decades have left by the people who calculated it carefully). > The same is for all other natural resources (coal, gas). > Return is already 3x for coal in some places. But even predators have 10x > in nature. > It is not possible to keep the current level of civilization with such a > bad energy resource as we have for coal in many places. > It has nothing to do with money - money would not help at all if > calculations are done for the whole mankind. > A human population like a virus should follow a famous logistic curve (S > shape), it should abruptly drop (like for a virus) for the overpopulated > community. > Civilization could start from arrows without any nuclear war. > > Nuclear Fusion is a fake. Not because they have not mastered it after 70 > years. > But primarily because it needs Tritium for "low-temperature" reaction. > Tritium has a very small resource on the Earth. It would not help anyway. > Oceans have Deuterium for 1 million of years (with the current mankind's > consumption). > But if "low temperature" was not archived (for D+T), how to achieve "high > temperature" (for D+D reaction)? > Looks like a guaranteed fiasco. > > There is a solution. Current nuclear stations consume Uranium 235 for > "slow neutrons" reaction. > Uranium 235 is very limited on the Earth too. It would not help for a lon= g > time (not even a hundred years). > Uranium 238 is 100x more available. > There were about 20 reactors on "fast neutrons" in different countries. > I am lazy to dig, but a few big has been started in Russia recently > (1.2GWt is the latest one - big noise around this), for sure India and > China are doing a lot (and have operational reactors too). > Uranium 238 is enough for 1.5k years of mankind. > If India would find how to use Thorium (looks like they invest a lot in > this topic), then it is about 3x resources compare to Uranium 238 (5k yea= rs > for mankind?). > Unfortunately, it may be too late to start massive construction for such > types of reactors. > The world needs thousands (I am lazy to calculate the exact number). It > looks like time has been lost already. > > "Kardashev Scale" looks like a populistic discussion in the face of a > deadly problem that mankind already has. > We are on the top of the logistic curve. > We need to jump on the next logistic curve or depopulate 100000x (return > to wood again). > We did already a few jumps between logistics curves: from wood to coal, > from coal to oil/gas. > We are still alive. We need the next jump. Or die. > > PS: Indeed, it is distantly related to the thread discussion. > > PS2: if somebody would start to argue about solar or wind - do not > calculate anything in money. > Distortions of falsely assumed "open market" are not relevant (with all > sanctions, subsidizations, "currency board" colonial systems, etc.). > The only calculation valuable is "how much energy is needed to produce > energy". > How much is the return coefficient? > 10x is possible for predator (animals). > 100x is needed for the current level of mankind. > 1000x is needed for the next level of civilization. > > Eduard > -----Original Message----- > From: ietf [mailto:ietf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Scheffenegger, > Richard > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2022 8:32 PM > To: ietf@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to > Undermine the Internet > > To be pedantic, humanity has not even managed Kardashov level 1. > > At current energy consumtion rate, we manage a 0.73. > > (For reference, at level 2, each and every member of the human race would > consume more than the energy, that we as a global society are currently > using in total - or with other words, each human would control power > similar to the current global scale). > > Couldn't resist. > > > Am 29.03.2022 um 14:29 schrieb Axel Abad: > > I.M.H.O. : This is a fallacy from the beggining. Maybe was a nice > > idealism.. very altruistic and selfless. > > > > But the true is there for everyone to see. > > > > Why should we think that Internet must be of and for everybody? > > Is that more important than the Human Health? or the Food? (not for > > free, not for everyone) > > > > By the moment, the only thing that we can consume freely is the Air... > > Al the other "basic" needs are rated and have a cost.. > > Is sad, but is true. > > > > Access to technology will be always reserved for some portion of the > > human kind. There are lots of people who don=C2=B4t have access to food= .. > > or even water... They are not concerned about Internet, for sure... > > But there are a lot of others who didn=C2=B4t have access to basic tool= s, > > like a hammer or a spade... > > > > So, the "formula" is very simple: If you have enough resources to live > > in the current culture without worries about food and roof needs (and > > other basics), then "you are in" (if you want invest on that). > > > > Then, access to technology is costly. If you can have this access, > > then someone is receiving something in exchange. > > And there is when the Internet stops be of all and for all. And there > > is when the "control" begins. > > No matter if it is on a Governement hands, or a Private entity. > > > > Until the entire Human race enter on the next Kardashov civilization > > age (type II) we will continue to be "energy provider" dependent, and > > that=C2=B4s include all related technologies involved with electrical > > energy (Telecomm, Internet, etc.) > > > > To have Internet free for all, we need to have Energy free for all firs= t. > > > > That=C2=B4s is my comment about. Sorry if it is not "nice" or "kindly". > > > > Axel Abad.- > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > *De:* InternetPolicy en > > nombre de willi uebelherr via InternetPolicy > > > > *Enviado:* lunes, 28 de marzo de 2022 15:47 > > *Para:* ISOC Internet Policy > > *Cc:* IRTF discuss ; IETF discussion > > ; IGF governance > > *Asunto:* Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to > > Undermine the Internet > > > > Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet Andrew > > Sullivan, 02.03.2022 > > https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist > > -calls-to-undermine-the-internet/ > > > t-calls-to-undermine-the-internet/> > > > > Internet Fragmentation: An Overview > > William Drake, Vinton Cerf, Wolfgang Kleinw=C3=A4chter > > 01.2016 > > https://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_FII_Internet_Fragmentation_An_Overvi > > ew_2016.pdf > > > iew_2016.pdf> > > > > Dear friends, > > > > i am very surprised at the passion in this discussion to gather on > > side issues instead of addressing the main issues. > > > > The statement by Andrew Sullivan from ISOC still stands: > > "The Internet have to be for everyone". > > > > And from a member of the IETF-maillist: > > "Internet, from the people, for the people ..." > > > > Already in 2016 this text was published, which I linked at the > > beginning of this email: > > "Internet Fragmentation: An Overview." > > > > On page 10 we read: > > "From a technical standpoint, the original shared vision guiding the > > Internet's development was that every device on the Internet should be > > able to exchange data packets with any other device that was willing > > to receive them. ..." > > > > And even in our 1st discussion in 2016 on the topic of the Internet on > > ISOC's global policy list, there was no relevant interest to address > > the basic problem in the construction of an Internet. > > > > When private and governmental interests dominate, nothing can ever > > emerge that is intended to work for communities of people. It then > > remains a fragmented entity where only individual interests are to be > > realized. And there we are still. > > > > We see today how disastrous this way is. The Russian Federation has > > now put a stop to this madness by ending the militarization and > > fascization of Eurasia. > > > > And we see in the food supply the consequences of regions not > > respecting their sovereignty and autonomy. World trade and global > > economic constriction is part of the great nonsense that people have > > come up with. The Roman Empire also failed in this. And the US dollar > > empire will also fail. > > > > We, as actors for a free global communication of the people of this > > planet, do not need privatization and state control mania. Etatism > > will be buried. > > > > We need the creative development of local and regional potentials. > > Even if telecommunication is not a food, it is the prerequisite for > > our free exchange of theoretical bases and our construction ideas, in > > order to be able to produce all that we really need. And always there, > > where it is also needed. > > > > The telecommunication in the form of an Internet is our instrument to > > overcome our fragmentation of the people into ethnic groups and > > linguistic and cultural spaces, in order to give to all people the > > possibility to be able to produce their stable material bases of life > > according to our natural conditions of existence. > > > > You see, I refer here clearly and without compromise to the statement > > of Andrew Sullivan. Maybe some of you find my interpretation of this > > statement unpleasant or not purposeful? Then let's talk about our > > intentions and motivations that lead us to deal with questions of an > > InterNet and to talk and write about it. > > > > When we talk about construction principles, we are not yet talking > > about the details of the components that are needed for it and how > > they can be created. Every manufacturing process rests on 3 phases: > > Design, Construction and Manufacturing. > > > > We are actually back in the design phase because we can or might > > recognize that what has been created over the last few decades is not > > fit for purpose. So it was a design failure from the beginning. > > > > with kind regards, willi > > Asuncion, Paraguay > > > > > > original in german > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > Liebe freunde, > > > > ich bin sehr erstaunt ueber die Leidenschaft in dieser Diskussion, > > sich auf Nebenschauplaetzen zu versammeln, statt sich den Hauptfragen z= u > widmen. > > > > Nach wie vor steht die Aussage von Andrew Sullivan von ISOC im Raum: > > "The Internet have to be for everyone". > > > > And from a member of the IETF-maillist: > > "Internet, from the people, for the people ..." > > > > Schon 2016 wurde dieser Text veroeffentlicht, den ich am Anfang dieser > > email verlinkt habe: > > "Internet Fragmentation: An Overview." > > > > Auf Seite 10 lesen wir: > > "From a technical standpoint, the original shared vision guiding the > > Internet=E2=80=99s development was that every device on the Internet sh= ould be > > able to exchange data packets with any other device that was willing > > to receive them. ..." > > > > Und schon in unserer 1. Diskussion 2016 zum Thema Internet auf der > > globalen policy-liste von ISOC war kein relevantes Interesse zu > > erkennen, die Grundproblematik in der Konstruktion eines Internet > > anzusprechen. > > > > Wenn private und staatliche Interessen dominieren, kann niemals etwas > > entstehen, das fuer die Gemeinschaften der Menschen wirken soll. Es > > bleibt dann ein fragmentiertes Gebilde, wo nur individuale Interessen > > realisiert werden sollen. Und da sind wir immer noch. > > > > Wir sehen heute, wie katastrophal dieser Weg ist. Die russische > > Foederation hat diesem Irrsinn nun einen Stop gesetzt, indem sie die > > Militarisierung und Faschisierung von Eurasien beendet. > > > > Und wir sehen in der Nahrungsmittelversorgung die Konsequenzen, wenn > > die Regionen nicht auf ihre Souveraenitaet und Autonomie achten. > > Welthandel und globale oekonomische Verschraenkung ist Teil des > > grossen Bloedsinns, den sich die Menschen ausgedacht haben. Auch das > > roemische Imperium ist daran gescheitert. Und das US-Dollar-Imperium > wird auch daran scheitern. > > > > Wir, als Akteure fuer eine freie globale Kommunikation der Menschen > > dieses Planeten brauchen keine Privatisierung und staatlichen > > Kontrollwahn. Der Etatismus wird begraben. > > > > Wir brauchen die kreative Entfaltung der lokalen und regionalen > > Potentiale. Auch wenn die Telekommunikation kein Lebensmittel ist, so > > ist sie doch die Vorraussetzung fuer unseren freien Austausch der > > theoretischen Grundlagen und unserer Konstruktionsideen, um all jenes > > herstellen zu koennen, was wir wirklich brauchen. Und immer dort, wo > > es auch gebraucht wird. > > > > Die Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet ist unser Instrument, um > > unsere Fragmentisierung der Menschen in Ethnien und spachliche und > > kulturelle Raeume zu ueberwinden, um allen Menschen die Moeglichkeit > > zu geben, ihre stabilen materiellen Lebensgrundlagen gemaess unserer > > natuerlichen Existenzbedingungen selbst herstellen zu koennen. > > > > Ihr seht, ich beziehe mich hier eindeutig und ohne Kompromisse auf die > > Aussage von Andrew Sullivan. Vielleicht ist manchem von euch meine > > Interpretation dieser Aussage unangenehm oder nicht zielfuehrend? Dann > > lasst uns ueber unsere Intentionen und Motivationen sprechen, die uns > > veranlassen, uns mit fragen eines InterNet zu beschaeftigen und > > drueber zu sprechen und zu schreiben. > > > > Wenn wir ueber Konstruktionsprinzipien sprechen, dann geht es noch > > nicht um die Details der Komponenten, die dafuer gebraucht werden und > > wie sie entstehen koennen. Jeder Herstellungsprozess ruht auf 3 Phasen: > > Design/Entwurf, Konstruktion und Herstellung. > > > > Wir befinden uns eigentlich wieder in der Entwurfsphase, weil wir > > erkennen koennen oder koennten, dass das, was die letzten Jahrzehnte > > entstanden ist, nicht tauglich ist. Es war also von Anfang an ein > > Entwurfsfehler. > > > > mit lieben Gruessen, willi > > Asuncion, Paraguay > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To manage your Internet Society subscriptions or unsubscribe, log into > > the Member Portal at > > https://admin.internetsociety.org/622619/User/Login > > > > and go to the Preferences tab within your profile. > > - > > View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: > > https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/ > > > > --000000000000ec1f8805db889160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have found precious few uses for a degree = in nuclear=C2=A0physics other than pointing out nonsense. The speculative c= laims being made in the attached post are complete nonsense.

They are also irrelevant to the IETF ex= cept in one respect: The international developments and the demand for ener= gy that the post are responding too will create=C2=A0intense political dema= nd to prohibit with extreme prejudice any and all technologies that rely on= proof of work or proof of waste to function. There will thus be a demand f= or technologies that provide the same notarization benefits as Blockchain c= laims without the proof of waste. Such technologies could and should be pur= sued in IETF.
<= br>
My contribu= tion in this area can be found here:
https://www.iet= f.org/archive/id/draft-hallambaker-mesh-callsign-01.html

=

[Irrelevance follows]

The folk pursuing=C2=A0nuclear fusion are aware of the need for tritium= which is why they propose to manufacture it. That is incidentally the reas= on why merely achieving breakeven fusion power is insufficient, to be a via= ble power source, the fusion output needs to be approximately 100 to 1000 t= imes the input. Muon catalyzed fusion fails for similar reasons. I think it= highly unlikely that fusion power will be viable in the next 30 years but = the people working on it do deserve a fair hearing.

Equally, speculation about the viability of fiss= ion power from folk who admit being 'too lazy to dig into' the deta= ils seems superfluous. The engineers working on the Manhattan project chose= uranium over thorium for good reason and those reasons have not changed. P= ath dependence is a powerful effect but the claim that thorium=C2=A0was ove= rlooked out of ignorance is false,

Electricity generation from renewable=C2=A0sources is a larger f= raction of power generation than fission power both in the US and the EU. O= n pre-2022 trends, wind power will be the largest source in both by 2030. T= hose trends have greatly accelerated in response to recent events.

The notion that technologies that= are currently meeting 15% (EU) and 21% (US) of electricity generation cann= ot provide substantially more demands a fuller argument than pointing to th= e people suggesting that it can and denouncing them as dirty smelly hippies= .=C2=A0

Equally arguments= based on how fast deployment of a technology has to grow based on a fracti= on of existing deployment without reference to the constraints are nonsense= . The Web went from less than 1% of Internet users to 99% of users in less = than a year, a 100 times increase.

Oh and yes, an obligatory disclaimer, I do have substantial inve= stments in renewable generation technologies. But rather than that being &#= 39;bias' I prefer to think of it as 'putting my money where my keyb= oard is'.
<= br>

<= /div>

On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 3:17 PM Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.e= duard=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.i= etf.org> wrote:
Hi all,
Richard and Axel,
Unfortunately, civilization is moving right now to a dead end.
Because it is still a pure Hydrocarbon civilization (solar or wind are a ca= nned coal from China in reality - it is a fake that it brings anything posi= tive in the mankind balance).
But the return is smaller and smaller: initially, it was needed to spend 1 = barrel to produce 100 barrels.
It is less and less productive now (I am lazy to dig exact numbers, a few d= ecades have left by the people who calculated it carefully).
The same is for all other natural resources (coal, gas).
Return is already 3x for coal in some places. But even predators have 10x i= n nature.
It is not possible to keep the current level of civilization with such a ba= d energy resource as we have for coal in many places.
It has nothing to do with money - money would not help at all if calculatio= ns are done for the whole mankind.
A human population like a virus should follow a famous logistic curve (S sh= ape), it should abruptly drop (like for a virus) for the overpopulated comm= unity.
Civilization could start from arrows without any nuclear war.

Nuclear Fusion is a fake. Not because they have not mastered it after 70 ye= ars.
But primarily because it needs Tritium for "low-temperature" reac= tion.
Tritium has a very small resource on the Earth. It would not help anyway. Oceans have Deuterium for 1 million of years (with the current mankind'= s consumption).
But if "low temperature" was not archived (for D+T), how to achie= ve "high temperature" (for D+D reaction)?
Looks like a guaranteed fiasco.

There is a solution. Current nuclear stations consume Uranium 235 for "= ;slow neutrons" reaction.
Uranium 235 is very limited on the Earth too. It would not help for a long = time (not even a hundred years).
Uranium 238 is 100x more available.
There were about 20 reactors on "fast neutrons" in different coun= tries.
I am lazy to dig, but a few big has been started in Russia recently (1.2GWt= is the latest one - big noise around this), for sure India and China are d= oing a lot (and have operational reactors too).
Uranium 238 is enough for 1.5k years of mankind.
If India would find how to use Thorium (looks like they invest a lot in thi= s topic), then it is about 3x resources compare to Uranium 238 (5k years fo= r mankind?).
Unfortunately, it may be too late to start massive construction for such ty= pes of reactors.
The world needs thousands (I am lazy to calculate the exact number). It loo= ks like time has been lost already.

"Kardashev Scale" looks like a populistic discussion in the face = of a deadly problem that mankind already has.
We are on the top of the logistic curve.
We need to jump on the next logistic curve or depopulate 100000x (return to= wood again).
We did already a few jumps between logistics curves: from wood to coal, fro= m coal to oil/gas.
We are still alive. We need the next jump. Or die.

PS: Indeed, it is distantly related to the thread discussion.

PS2: if somebody would start to argue about solar or wind - do not calculat= e anything in money.
Distortions of falsely assumed "open market" are not relevant (wi= th all sanctions, subsidizations, "currency board" colonial syste= ms, etc.).
The only calculation valuable is "how much energy is needed to produce= energy".
How much is the return coefficient?
10x is possible for predator (animals).
100x is needed for the current level of mankind.
1000x is needed for the next level of civilization.

Eduard
-----Original Message-----
From: ietf [mailto:ietf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Scheffenegger, Richard
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2022 8:32 PM
To: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine= the Internet

To be pedantic, humanity has not even managed Kardashov level 1.

At current energy consumtion rate, we manage a 0.73.

(For reference, at level 2, each and every member of the human race would c= onsume more than the energy, that we as a global society are currently usin= g in total - or with other words, each human would control power similar to= the current global scale).

Couldn't resist.

Am 29.03.2022 um 14:29 schrieb Axel Abad:
> I.M.H.O. : This is a fallacy from the beggining. Maybe was a nice
> idealism.. very altruistic and selfless.
>
> But the true is there for everyone to see.
>
> Why=C2=A0 should we think that Internet must be of and for everybody?<= br> > Is that more important than the Human Health? or the Food? (not for > free, not for everyone)
>
> By the moment, the only thing that we can consume freely=C2=A0 is the = Air...
> Al the other "basic" needs are rated and have a cost..
> Is sad, but is true.
>
> Access to technology will be always reserved for some portion of the <= br> > human kind. There are lots of people who don=C2=B4t have access to foo= d..
> or even water... They are not concerned about Internet, for sure... > But there are a lot of others who didn=C2=B4t have access to basic too= ls,
> like a hammer or a spade...
>
> So, the "formula" is very simple: If you have enough resourc= es to live
> in the current culture without worries about food and roof needs (and =
> other basics), then "you are in" (if you want invest on that= ).
>
> Then, access to technology is costly. If you can have this access, > then someone is receiving something in exchange.
> And there is when the Internet stops be of all and for all. And there =
> is when the "control" begins.
> No matter if it is on a Governement hands, or a Private entity.
>
> Until the entire Human race enter on the next Kardashov civilization <= br> > age (type II) we will continue to be "energy provider" depen= dent, and
> that=C2=B4s include all related technologies involved with electrical =
> energy (Telecomm, Internet, etc.)
>
> To have Internet free for all, we need to have Energy free for all fir= st.
>
> That=C2=B4s is my comment about. Sorry if it is not "nice" o= r "kindly".
>
> Axel Abad.-
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> --
> *De:* InternetPolicy <internetpolicy-bounces@elists.isoc.org&g= t; en
> nombre de willi uebelherr via InternetPolicy
> <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org>
> *Enviado:* lunes, 28 de marzo de 2022 15:47
> *Para:* ISOC Internet Policy <internetpolicy@elists.isoc.org>
> *Cc:* IRTF discuss <irtf-discuss@irtf.org>; IETF discussion
> <ietf@ietf.org>; IGF governance <governance@lists.igcaucus.org>
> *Asunto:* Re: [Internet Policy] Why the World Must Resist Calls to > Undermine the Internet
>
> Why the World Must Resist Calls to Undermine the Internet Andrew
> Sullivan, 02.03.2022
> https://www.internetsocie= ty.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resist
> -calls-to-undermine-the-internet/
> <https://www.internetso= ciety.org/blog/2022/03/why-the-world-must-resis
> t-calls-to-undermine-the-internet/>
>
> Internet Fragmentation: An Overview
> William Drake, Vinton Cerf, Wolfgang Kleinw=C3=A4chter
> 01.2016
> https://www3.weforum.org/= docs/WEF_FII_Internet_Fragmentation_An_Overvi
> ew_2016.pdf
> <https://www3.weforum.o= rg/docs/WEF_FII_Internet_Fragmentation_An_Overv
> iew_2016.pdf>
>
> Dear friends,
>
> i am very surprised at the passion in this discussion to gather on > side issues instead of addressing the main issues.
>
> The statement by Andrew Sullivan from ISOC still stands:
> "The Internet have to be for everyone".
>
> And from a member of the IETF-maillist:
> "Internet, from the people, for the people ..."
>
> Already in 2016 this text was published, which I linked at the
> beginning of this email:
> "Internet Fragmentation: An Overview."
>
> On page 10 we read:
> "From a technical standpoint, the original shared vision guiding = the
> Internet's development was that every device on the Internet shoul= d be
> able to exchange data packets with any other device that was willing <= br> > to receive them. ..."
>
> And even in our 1st discussion in 2016 on the topic of the Internet on=
> ISOC's global policy list, there was no relevant interest to addre= ss
> the basic problem in the construction of an Internet.
>
> When private and governmental interests dominate, nothing can ever > emerge that is intended to work for communities of people. It then > remains a fragmented entity where only individual interests are to be =
> realized. And there we are still.
>
> We see today how disastrous this way is. The Russian Federation has > now put a stop to this madness by ending the militarization and
> fascization of Eurasia.
>
> And we see in the food supply the consequences of regions not
> respecting their sovereignty and autonomy. World trade and global
> economic constriction is part of the great nonsense that people have <= br> > come up with. The Roman Empire also failed in this. And the US dollar =
> empire will also fail.
>
> We, as actors for a free global communication of the people of this > planet, do not need privatization and state control mania. Etatism > will be buried.
>
> We need the creative development of local and regional potentials. > Even if telecommunication is not a food, it is the prerequisite for > our free exchange of theoretical bases and our construction ideas, in =
> order to be able to produce all that we really need. And always there,=
> where it is also needed.
>
> The telecommunication in the form of an Internet is our instrument to =
> overcome our fragmentation of the people into ethnic groups and
> linguistic and cultural spaces, in order to give to all people the > possibility to be able to produce their stable material bases of life =
> according to our natural conditions of existence.
>
> You see, I refer here clearly and without compromise to the statement =
> of Andrew Sullivan. Maybe some of you find my interpretation of this <= br> > statement unpleasant or not purposeful? Then let's talk about our =
> intentions and motivations that lead us to deal with questions of an <= br> > InterNet and to talk and write about it.
>
> When we talk about construction principles, we are not yet talking > about the details of the components that are needed for it and how > they can be created. Every manufacturing process rests on 3 phases: > Design, Construction and Manufacturing.
>
> We are actually back in the design phase because we can or might
> recognize that what has been created over the last few decades is not =
> fit for purpose. So it was a design failure from the beginning.
>
> with kind regards, willi
> Asuncion, Paraguay
>
>
> original in german
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> Liebe freunde,
>
> ich bin sehr erstaunt ueber die Leidenschaft in dieser Diskussion, > sich auf Nebenschauplaetzen zu versammeln, statt sich den Hauptfragen = zu widmen.
>
> Nach wie vor steht die Aussage von Andrew Sullivan von ISOC im Raum: > "The Internet have to be for everyone".
>
> And from a member of the IETF-maillist:
> "Internet, from the people, for the people ..."
>
> Schon 2016 wurde dieser Text veroeffentlicht, den ich am Anfang dieser=
> email verlinkt habe:
> "Internet Fragmentation: An Overview."
>
> Auf Seite 10 lesen wir:
> "From a technical standpoint, the original shared vision guiding = the
> Internet=E2=80=99s development was that every device on the Internet s= hould be
> able to exchange data packets with any other device that was willing <= br> > to receive them. ..."
>
> Und schon in unserer 1. Diskussion 2016 zum Thema Internet auf der > globalen policy-liste von ISOC war kein relevantes Interesse zu
> erkennen, die Grundproblematik in der Konstruktion eines Internet
> anzusprechen.
>
> Wenn private und staatliche Interessen dominieren, kann niemals etwas =
> entstehen, das fuer die Gemeinschaften der Menschen wirken soll. Es > bleibt dann ein fragmentiertes Gebilde, wo nur individuale Interessen =
> realisiert werden sollen. Und da sind wir immer noch.
>
> Wir sehen heute, wie katastrophal dieser Weg ist. Die russische
> Foederation hat diesem Irrsinn nun einen Stop gesetzt, indem sie die <= br> > Militarisierung und Faschisierung von Eurasien beendet.
>
> Und wir sehen in der Nahrungsmittelversorgung die Konsequenzen, wenn <= br> > die Regionen nicht auf ihre Souveraenitaet und Autonomie achten.
> Welthandel und globale oekonomische Verschraenkung ist Teil des
> grossen Bloedsinns, den sich die Menschen ausgedacht haben. Auch das <= br> > roemische Imperium ist daran gescheitert. Und das US-Dollar-Imperium w= ird auch daran scheitern.
>
> Wir, als Akteure fuer eine freie globale Kommunikation der Menschen > dieses Planeten brauchen keine Privatisierung und staatlichen
> Kontrollwahn. Der Etatismus wird begraben.
>
> Wir brauchen die kreative Entfaltung der lokalen und regionalen
> Potentiale. Auch wenn die Telekommunikation kein Lebensmittel ist, so =
> ist sie doch die Vorraussetzung fuer unseren freien Austausch der
> theoretischen Grundlagen und unserer Konstruktionsideen, um all jenes =
> herstellen zu koennen, was wir wirklich brauchen. Und immer dort, wo <= br> > es auch gebraucht wird.
>
> Die Telekommunikation in Form eines Internet ist unser Instrument, um =
> unsere Fragmentisierung der Menschen in Ethnien und spachliche und > kulturelle Raeume zu ueberwinden, um allen Menschen die Moeglichkeit <= br> > zu geben, ihre stabilen materiellen Lebensgrundlagen gemaess unserer <= br> > natuerlichen Existenzbedingungen selbst herstellen zu koennen.
>
> Ihr seht, ich beziehe mich hier eindeutig und ohne Kompromisse auf die=
> Aussage von Andrew Sullivan. Vielleicht ist manchem von euch meine > Interpretation dieser Aussage unangenehm oder nicht zielfuehrend? Dann=
> lasst uns ueber unsere Intentionen und Motivationen sprechen, die uns =
> veranlassen, uns mit fragen eines InterNet zu beschaeftigen und
> drueber zu sprechen und zu schreiben.
>
> Wenn wir ueber Konstruktionsprinzipien sprechen, dann geht es noch > nicht um die Details der Komponenten, die dafuer gebraucht werden und =
> wie sie entstehen koennen. Jeder Herstellungsprozess ruht auf 3 Phasen= :
> Design/Entwurf, Konstruktion und Herstellung.
>
> Wir befinden uns eigentlich wieder in der Entwurfsphase, weil wir
> erkennen koennen oder koennten, dass das, was die letzten Jahrzehnte <= br> > entstanden ist, nicht tauglich ist. Es war also von Anfang an ein
> Entwurfsfehler.
>
> mit lieben Gruessen, willi
> Asuncion, Paraguay
>
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--000000000000ec1f8805db889160--

ABDUL = HAKIM "FARAHMAND"
I have work experience above four years of=C2=A0 Monitoring and Elevation Officer