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From: Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org>
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To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
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Subject: Re: [Int-area] [tsvwg] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15, closes 29 June 2020
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> On 30 Jun 2020, at 01:59, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>=20
> >=20
> > This 3rd WGLC is limited to the following two topics:
> > =20
> >=20
> >     Whether or not to proceed with a request for RFC publication
> >=20
> > of the draft.   The decision on whether or not to proceed will
> > be based on rough consensus of the WG, see RFC 7282.
> > During the 2nd WGLC, Eric Rescorla and David Schinazi expressed
> > strong views that this draft should not be published =E2=80=93  =
those
> > concerns have not been resolved and are carried forward to
> > this WGLC.  This email message was an attempt to summarize
> > those concerns:
> >=20
> > =
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/i4qyY1HRqKwm0Jme9UtEb6DyhXU/ =
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/i4qyY1HRqKwm0Jme9UtEb6DyhXU/>=

> >=20
> > Further explanation from both Eric Rescorla and David Schinazi
> > is welcome and encouraged to ensure that their concerns are
> > clearly understood.
>=20
> Well, I'll try again, but I'm not sure that I can do better than
> I have before.
>=20
> For reasons that are laid out in RFC 7258, the trend in protocol
> design in IETF is towards encrypting more and more.

I agree, but also note that RFC 7258 is clear that some network =
monitoring can be beneficial and that =E2=80=9Can appropriate balance=E2=80=
=9D has to be found between mitigating pervasive monitoring and =
supporting network management. This draft is intended to highlight =
issues to be considered by transport protocol designers, to help them =
find that balance.

And, to be clear, if transport protocol designers consider the issues =
and decide that all the metadata in their transport protocol must be =
encrypted, that=E2=80=99s fine. We're not pushing for a particular =
outcome; rather that the issues be considered and discussed when making =
a decision on what to encrypt.

> The last two
> transport protocols that were designed and widely deployed (SCTP over
> DTLS and QUIC) both encrypt the vast majority of the protocol
> metadata. This document advertises itself as "considerations"
> for design of such protocols:
>=20
>    The transport protocols developed for the Internet are used across =
a
>    wide range of paths across network segments with many different
>    regulatory, commercial, and engineering considerations.  This
>    document considers some of the costs and changes to network
>    management and research that are implied by widespread use of
>    transport protocols that encrypt their transport header =
information.
>    It reviews the implications of developing transport protocols that
>    use end-to-end encryption to provide confidentiality of their
>    transport layer headers, and considers the effect of such changes =
on
>    transport protocol design, transport protocol evolution, and =
network
>    operations.  It also considers some anticipated implications on
>    application evolution.  This provides considerations relating to =
the
>    design of transport protocols and features where the transport
>    protocol encrypts some or all of their header information.
>=20
> However, as I said above, the new transport protocols that are
> actually being designed already feature metadata encryption and as far
> as I can tell, there is no prospective protocol new transport protocol
> design project for which these issues might be live.

The issues highlighted in the draft were certainly considered in the =
design of QUIC, especially in the discussions around the spin bit and =
operational aspects. I cannot envisage that they won=E2=80=99t also be =
considered in the design of future transports.

> In that context,
> it's hard not to read this document with its long litany of practices
> which are impacted by metadata encryption as a critique of the
> decisions by SCTP/DTLS and QUIC to encrypt most of the metadata.

I tend to regard critiques of protocol design as a good thing, but then =
we maybe have a different interpretations of that term. Certainly there =
are implications of the decision to encrypt transport metadata. There =
are benefits to it, but also costs. It=E2=80=99s important to understand =
both, to make an informed judgement on what to encrypt.

> This impression is reinforced by the description of the actual
> practices themselves, which focuses almost entirely on practices
> which appear to be benignly motivated (e.g., performance monitoring,
> troubleshooting, etc.) However, we also know that metadata is widely
> used for practices in which the network operator is adversarial
> to the user, for instance:
>=20
> - Blocking traffic based on TCP port, IP address, SNI, etc.
>=20
> - Performance-based traffic class discrimination
>=20
> - Monitoring the user's behavior via indicia like the ones above
>   or via traffic analysis (see [0])
>=20
> Yes, I understand that the authors explicitly disclaim judgement on
> these practices, and the document does briefly touch on the general
> idea, though the "concerns...have been voiced" tends to minimize those
> concerns [1] but the selection of practices to focus on is extremely
> telling. Focusing on the downsides of encryption for (at least
> arguably well-meaning) network players while mostly ignoring the large
> class of non-benign behaviors which encryption is intended to protect
> against has the effect of overemphasizing the costs of encryption to
> those players and minimizing the benefits to the endpoints whom it is
> intended to protect.

Different communities have different interpretations on what=E2=80=99s =
the neutral point of view phrasing here, but I'm comfortable with =
further highlighting malicious uses of transport metadata in the draft. =
We=E2=80=99d tried to mostly do this by reference, since such things =
have been widely discussed in the past, but perhaps that=E2=80=99s not =
sufficient.

> To be maximally clear: I don't object to this document existing
> and I don't think that the opinions implicit in it are ones that
> should not be expressed. I merely don't think that it should be
> published as an IETF Consensus document.
>=20
> -Ekr
>=20
> [0] =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wood-pearg-website-fingerprinting-00#sec=
tion-5 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wood-pearg-website-fingerprinting-00#se=
ction-5>
> [1]    Another motivation stems from increased concerns about privacy =
and
>       surveillance.  Users value the ability to protect their identity
>       and location, and defend against analysis of the traffic.
>       Revelations about the use of pervasive surveillance [RFC7624]
>       have, to some extent, eroded trust in the service offered by
>       network operators and have led to an increased use of encryption
>       to avoid unwanted eavesdropping on communications.  Concerns =
have
>       also been voiced about the addition of information to packets by
>       third parties to provide analytics, customisation, advertising,
>       cross-site tracking of users, to bill the customer, or to
>       selectively allow or block content.  Whatever the reasons, the
>       IETF is designing protocols that include transport header
>       encryption (e.g., QUIC [I-D.ietf-quic-transport]) to supplement
>       the already widespread payload encryption, and to further limit
>       exposure of transport metadata to the network.
>  =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20



--=20
Colin Perkins
https://csperkins.org/





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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 30 Jun 2020, at 01:59, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" class=3D"">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&gt; <br class=3D"">&gt; This 3rd WGLC is limited =
to the following two topics:<br class=3D"">&gt; &nbsp;<br class=3D"">&gt; =
<br class=3D"">&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; Whether or not to proceed with a =
request for RFC publication<br class=3D"">&gt; <br class=3D"">&gt; of =
the draft. &nbsp; The decision on whether or not to proceed will<br =
class=3D"">&gt; be based on rough consensus of the WG, see RFC 7282.<br =
class=3D"">&gt; During the 2nd WGLC, Eric Rescorla and David Schinazi =
expressed<br class=3D"">&gt; strong views that this draft should not be =
published =E2=80=93 &nbsp;those<br class=3D"">&gt; concerns have not =
been resolved and are carried forward to<br class=3D"">&gt; this =
WGLC.&nbsp; This email message was an attempt to summarize<br =
class=3D"">&gt; those concerns:<br class=3D"">&gt; <br class=3D"">&gt; =
<a =
href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/i4qyY1HRqKwm0Jme9UtEb6=
DyhXU/" =
class=3D"">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/i4qyY1HRqKwm0Jme9Ut=
Eb6DyhXU/</a><br class=3D"">&gt; <br class=3D"">&gt; Further explanation =
from both Eric Rescorla and David Schinazi<br class=3D"">&gt; is welcome =
and encouraged to ensure that their concerns are<br class=3D"">&gt; =
clearly understood.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Well, I'll try again, =
but I'm not sure that I can do better than<br class=3D"">I have =
before.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">For reasons that are laid out in =
RFC 7258, the trend in protocol<br class=3D"">design in IETF is towards =
encrypting more and more. </div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I agree, but also note that RFC 7258 is clear that =
some network monitoring can be beneficial and that =E2=80=9Can =
appropriate balance=E2=80=9D has to be found between mitigating =
pervasive monitoring and supporting network management. This draft is =
intended to highlight issues to be considered by transport protocol =
designers, to help them find that balance.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>And, to be clear, if transport protocol designers =
consider the issues and decide that all the metadata in their transport =
protocol must be encrypted, that=E2=80=99s fine. We're not pushing for a =
particular outcome; rather that the issues be considered and discussed =
when making a decision on what to encrypt.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">The =
last two<br class=3D"">transport protocols that were designed and widely =
deployed (SCTP over<br class=3D"">DTLS and QUIC) both encrypt the vast =
majority of the protocol<br class=3D"">metadata. This document =
advertises itself as "considerations"<br class=3D"">for design of such =
protocols:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;The transport =
protocols developed for the Internet are used across a<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;wide range of paths across network segments with =
many different<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;regulatory, commercial, and =
engineering considerations.&nbsp; This<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;document considers some of the costs and changes to network<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;management and research that are implied by =
widespread use of<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;transport protocols that =
encrypt their transport header information.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;It reviews the implications of developing transport protocols =
that<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;use end-to-end encryption to provide =
confidentiality of their<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;transport layer =
headers, and considers the effect of such changes on<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;transport protocol design, transport protocol evolution, and =
network<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;operations.&nbsp; It also considers =
some anticipated implications on<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;application =
evolution.&nbsp; This provides considerations relating to the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;design of transport protocols and features where =
the transport<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;protocol encrypts some or all =
of their header information.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">However, as I =
said above, the new transport protocols that are<br class=3D"">actually =
being designed already feature metadata encryption and as far<br =
class=3D"">as I can tell, there is no prospective protocol new transport =
protocol<br class=3D"">design project for which these issues might be =
live. </div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The issues =
highlighted in the draft were certainly considered in the design of =
QUIC, especially in the discussions around the spin bit and operational =
aspects. I cannot envisage that they won=E2=80=99t also be considered in =
the design of future transports.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">In =
that context,<br class=3D"">it's hard not to read this document with its =
long litany of practices<br class=3D"">which are impacted by metadata =
encryption as a critique of the<br class=3D"">decisions by SCTP/DTLS and =
QUIC to encrypt most of the metadata.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I =
tend to regard critiques of protocol design as a good thing, but then we =
maybe have a different interpretations of that term. Certainly there are =
implications of the decision to encrypt transport metadata. There are =
benefits to it, but also costs. It=E2=80=99s important to understand =
both, to make an informed judgement on what to encrypt.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">This impression is reinforced by the description =
of the actual<br class=3D"">practices themselves, which focuses almost =
entirely on practices<br class=3D"">which appear to be benignly =
motivated (e.g., performance monitoring,<br class=3D"">troubleshooting, =
etc.) However, we also know that metadata is widely<br class=3D"">used =
for practices in which the network operator is adversarial<br =
class=3D"">to the user, for instance:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">- =
Blocking traffic based on TCP port, IP address, SNI, etc.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">- Performance-based traffic class =
discrimination<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">- Monitoring the user's =
behavior via indicia like the ones above<br class=3D"">&nbsp; or via =
traffic analysis (see [0])<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Yes, I =
understand that the authors explicitly disclaim judgement on<br =
class=3D"">these practices, and the document does briefly touch on the =
general<br class=3D"">idea, though the "concerns...have been voiced" =
tends to minimize those<br class=3D"">concerns [1] but the selection of =
practices to focus on is extremely<br class=3D"">telling. Focusing on =
the downsides of encryption for (at least<br class=3D"">arguably =
well-meaning) network players while mostly ignoring the large<br =
class=3D"">class of non-benign behaviors which encryption is intended to =
protect<br class=3D"">against has the effect of overemphasizing the =
costs of encryption to<br class=3D"">those players and minimizing the =
benefits to the endpoints whom it is<br class=3D"">intended to =
protect.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Different communities have different =
interpretations on what=E2=80=99s the neutral point of view phrasing =
here, but I'm comfortable with further highlighting malicious uses of =
transport metadata in the draft. We=E2=80=99d tried to mostly do this by =
reference, since such things have been widely discussed in the past, but =
perhaps that=E2=80=99s not sufficient.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">To =
be maximally clear: I don't object to this document existing<br =
class=3D"">and I don't think that the opinions implicit in it are ones =
that<br class=3D"">should not be expressed. I merely don't think that it =
should be<br class=3D"">published as an IETF Consensus document.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">-Ekr<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">[0] <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wood-pearg-website-fingerprintin=
g-00#section-5" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wood-pearg-website-fingerprin=
ting-00#section-5</a><br class=3D"">[1] &nbsp; &nbsp;Another motivation =
stems from increased concerns about privacy and<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; surveillance.&nbsp; Users value the ability to protect =
their identity<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; and location, and =
defend against analysis of the traffic.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; Revelations about the use of pervasive surveillance [RFC7624]<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; have, to some extent, eroded trust in =
the service offered by<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; network =
operators and have led to an increased use of encryption<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to avoid unwanted eavesdropping on =
communications.&nbsp; Concerns have<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
also been voiced about the addition of information to packets by<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; third parties to provide analytics, =
customisation, advertising,<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
cross-site tracking of users, to bill the customer, or to<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; selectively allow or block =
content.&nbsp; Whatever the reasons, the<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; IETF is designing protocols that include transport header<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; encryption (e.g., QUIC =
[I-D.ietf-quic-transport]) to supplement<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; the already widespread payload encryption, and to further =
limit<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; exposure of transport metadata =
to the network.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; <br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">--&nbsp;<br class=3D"">Colin Perkins<br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://csperkins.org/" =
class=3D"">https://csperkins.org/</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">

</div>
<br class=3D""></body></html>=

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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "Black, David" <David.Black@dell.com>
CC: int-area <int-area@ietf.org>, "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>, IETF SAAG <saag@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15, closes 29 June 2020
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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 12:57:57 +0000
Message-ID: <21886_1593608278_5EFC8856_21886_470_1_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330314EBA5C@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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Subject: Re: [Int-area] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15, closes 29 June 2020
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Subject: Re: [Int-area] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15, closes 29 June 2020
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From: Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 09:57:27 -0400
Message-ID: <CAJU8_nXR_FOhNrSatf_pHke7QRrzGjEKjeFvUAeH9ijgLzJnpw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
Cc: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "Black, David" <David.Black@dell.com>,  int-area <int-area@ietf.org>, "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>, IETF SAAG <saag@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Int-area] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15, closes 29 June 2020
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On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 9:20 AM Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com=
>
wrote:

> I noticed this in various IETF discussions and so I will describe it in
> the abstract.
>
>
>
> A group of people propose an idea. Those who do not like the idea are the=
n
> asked to convince the original contributors that their idea is not sound =
or
> contribute text so make it look nicer.
>
> Not only is this requiring me to spend my time on something I don=E2=80=
=99t agree
> with but it turns out that no discussions will change the mind of the
> original contributors. They just strongly believe in their ideas. They wi=
ll
> keep proposing the same idea over and over again (for years) till it gets
> published as an RFC.
>

I don't understand why so many are opposed to publishing a document that
merely describes how operators manage protocols in the absence of header
encryption, and how header encryption interferes with those practices. That
is, at least, in its original form, before this WG decided it needed to
incorporate pro-encryption advocacy, greatly complicating the document and
the resulting analysis.

For the OG version, I ask myself the following questions:

Does the document describe reality? Yes: it tells us what practices
operators employ today.
Is the document useful? Yes: see above, plus it makes clear that there will
be an impact to operators and/or protocol users from this evolution.
Does the document establish an IETF position on encryption? No. There are
plenty of other published RFCs that embody the spirit "encrypt all the
things". This document does not change that.
Does the document make normative statements about future protocol
development? No.

On what basis would I therefore oppose publication?

I may or may not have opinions about prioritization of user privacy over
manageability, the tussle between manageability and deployability, and what
alternatives are available to operators for managing protocols with
encrypted headers. I would be happy to help express those in a follow-on
document. But this document describing where those conflicts lie is a
*prerequisite* to developing those alternatives. And frankly those opinions
are irrelevant to the intended content of *this* document.

Kyle

--000000000000c1479605a961ac89
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-size:small">On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 9:20 AM Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-2026017448193583540WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I noticed this in various IETF discussions and so I =
will describe it in the abstract.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A group of people propose an idea. Those who do not =
like the idea are then asked to convince the original contributors that the=
ir idea is not sound or contribute text so make it look nicer.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Not only is this requiring me to spend my time on so=
mething I don=E2=80=99t agree with but it turns out that no discussions wil=
l change the mind of the original contributors. They just strongly believe =
in their ideas. They will keep proposing the
 same idea over and over again (for years) till it gets published as an RFC=
. <u></u>
<u></u></p>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small" clas=
s=3D"gmail_default">I don&#39;t understand why so many are opposed to publi=
shing a document that merely describes how operators manage protocols in th=
e absence of header encryption, and how header encryption interferes with t=
hose practices. That is, at least, in its original form, before this WG dec=
ided it needed to incorporate pro-encryption advocacy, greatly complicating=
 the document and the resulting analysis.</div><div style=3D"font-size:smal=
l" class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small" class=
=3D"gmail_default">For the OG version, I ask myself the following questions=
:<br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small" class=3D"gmail_default"><div styl=
e=3D"font-size:small" class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div style=3D"font-=
size:small" class=3D"gmail_default">Does the document describe reality? Yes=
: it tells us what practices operators employ today.<br></div></div><div st=
yle=3D"font-size:small" class=3D"gmail_default">Is the document useful? Yes=
: see above, plus it makes clear that there will be an impact to operators =
and/or protocol users from this evolution.<br></div><div style=3D"font-size=
:small" class=3D"gmail_default">Does the document establish an IETF positio=
n on encryption? No. There are plenty of other published RFCs that embody t=
he spirit &quot;encrypt all the things&quot;. This document does not change=
 that.<br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small" class=3D"gmail_default">Does=
 the document make normative statements about future protocol development? =
No.</div><div style=3D"font-size:small" class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><=
div style=3D"font-size:small" class=3D"gmail_default">On what basis would I=
 therefore oppose publication?<br></div><br><div style=3D"font-size:small" =
class=3D"gmail_default">I may or may not have opinions about prioritization=
 of user privacy over manageability, the tussle between manageability and d=
eployability, and what alternatives are available to operators for managing=
 protocols with encrypted headers. I would be happy to help express those i=
n a follow-on document. But this document describing where those conflicts =
lie is a *prerequisite* to developing those alternatives. And frankly those=
 opinions are irrelevant to the intended content of *this* document.<br></d=
iv><div style=3D"font-size:small" class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div st=
yle=3D"font-size:small" class=3D"gmail_default">Kyle</div><div style=3D"fon=
t-size:small" class=3D"gmail_default"></div></div></div>

--000000000000c1479605a961ac89--


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From: <Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de>
To: <krose@krose.org>, <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
CC: <int-area@ietf.org>, <tsvwg@ietf.org>, <saag@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Int-area] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15, closes 29 June 2020
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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, lp-wan <lp-wan@ietf.org>, int-area <int-area@ietf.org>
CC: "int-ads@ietf.org" <int-ads@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Moving draft-thubert-lpwan-schc-over-ppp to intarea from LPWAN to INTAREA
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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 15:08:12 +0000
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References: <2F6363F5-02E9-4FE8-83DF-9A13C33762E7@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Int-area] Moving draft-thubert-lpwan-schc-over-ppp to intarea from LPWAN to INTAREA
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From: Joseph Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 08:10:13 -0700
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/int-area/_VADlSElx3jiGMx-mBs1FAxh4xI>
Subject: Re: [Int-area] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15, closes 29 June 2020
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-1

Although it=E2=80=99s understandable to describe =E2=80=9Cwhat operators =
do=E2=80=9D, the IETF isn=E2=80=99t a news service. We typically =
summarize these behaviors to take a position on them.

The draft provides a good description of the tradeoff between the =
privacy rights of endpoints and the rights of operators and the impact =
of both on protocol design on that tradeoff.

What I seem to be seeing is increasing =E2=80=9Crough consensus=E2=80=9D =
that the summary position should be closer to endpoint privacy than in =
the current form.

Although I don=E2=80=99t feel strongly that the text absolutely needs =
revision in that direction, I would oppose changes to relax or shift in =
the other direct.

Joe

> On Jul 1, 2020, at 7:11 AM, Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de wrote:
>=20
> +1
> Thanks, Kyle!
> Kind regards
> Dirk
> =20
> From: Int-area <int-area-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:int-area-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Kyle Rose
> Sent: Mittwoch, 1. Juli 2020 15:57
> To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com =
<mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>>
> Cc: int-area <int-area@ietf.org <mailto:int-area@ietf.org>>; =
tsvwg@ietf.org <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>; IETF SAAG <saag@ietf.org =
<mailto:saag@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): =
draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15, closes 29 June 2020
> =20
> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 9:20 AM Hannes Tschofenig =
<Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>> wrote:
> I noticed this in various IETF discussions and so I will describe it =
in the abstract.
> =20
> A group of people propose an idea. Those who do not like the idea are =
then asked to convince the original contributors that their idea is not =
sound or contribute text so make it look nicer.=20
> Not only is this requiring me to spend my time on something I don=E2=80=99=
t agree with but it turns out that no discussions will change the mind =
of the original contributors. They just strongly believe in their ideas. =
They will keep proposing the same idea over and over again (for years) =
till it gets published as an RFC..
> =20
> I don't understand why so many are opposed to publishing a document =
that merely describes how operators manage protocols in the absence of =
header encryption, and how header encryption interferes with those =
practices. That is, at least, in its original form, before this WG =
decided it needed to incorporate pro-encryption advocacy, greatly =
complicating the document and the resulting analysis.
> =20
> For the OG version, I ask myself the following questions:
> =20
> Does the document describe reality? Yes: it tells us what practices =
operators employ today.
> Is the document useful? Yes: see above, plus it makes clear that there =
will be an impact to operators and/or protocol users from this =
evolution.
> Does the document establish an IETF position on encryption? No. There =
are plenty of other published RFCs that embody the spirit "encrypt all =
the things". This document does not change that.
> Does the document make normative statements about future protocol =
development? No.
> =20
> On what basis would I therefore oppose publication?
> =20
> I may or may not have opinions about prioritization of user privacy =
over manageability, the tussle between manageability and deployability, =
and what alternatives are available to operators for managing protocols =
with encrypted headers. I would be happy to help express those in a =
follow-on document. But this document describing where those conflicts =
lie is a *prerequisite* to developing those alternatives. And frankly =
those opinions are irrelevant to the intended content of *this* =
document.
> =20
> Kyle
> _______________________________________________
> Int-area mailing list
> Int-area@ietf.org <mailto:Int-area@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area>

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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">-1<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Although=
 it=E2=80=99s understandable to describe =E2=80=9Cwhat operators do=E2=80=9D=
, the IETF isn=E2=80=99t a news service. We typically summarize these =
behaviors to take a position on them.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The draft provides a good description =
of the tradeoff between the privacy rights of endpoints and the rights =
of operators and the impact of both on protocol design on that =
tradeoff.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">What =
I seem to be seeing is increasing =E2=80=9Crough consensus=E2=80=9D that =
the summary position should be closer to endpoint privacy than in the =
current form.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Although I don=E2=80=99t feel strongly that the text =
absolutely needs revision in that direction, I would oppose changes to =
relax or shift in the other direct.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Joe<br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul =
1, 2020, at 7:11 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de" =
class=3D"">Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de</a> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">+1<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Thanks, Kyle!<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 78, 121);" class=3D"">Kind regards<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 78, 121);" class=3D"">Dirk<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Int-area &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:int-area-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">int-area-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Kyle Rose<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mittwoch, 1. Juli 2020 =
15:57<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>int-area &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:int-area@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">int-area@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">tsvwg@ietf.org</a>; IETF SAAG &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:saag@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">saag@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Int-area] [saag] 3rd =
WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15, closes 29 =
June 2020<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D"">On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 9:20 AM Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; =
margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">I noticed this in various IETF discussions and =
so I will describe it in the abstract.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">A group of people propose an =
idea. Those who do not like the idea are then asked to convince the =
original contributors that their idea is not sound or contribute text so =
make it look nicer.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Not only is this requiring me =
to spend my time on something I don=E2=80=99t agree with but it turns =
out that no discussions will change the mind of the original =
contributors. They just strongly believe in their ideas. They will keep =
proposing the same idea over and over again (for years) till it gets =
published as an RFC..<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">I don't understand why so many are =
opposed to publishing a document that merely describes how operators =
manage protocols in the absence of header encryption, and how header =
encryption interferes with those practices. That is, at least, in its =
original form, before this WG decided it needed to incorporate =
pro-encryption advocacy, greatly complicating the document and the =
resulting analysis.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">For the OG version, I ask myself the =
following questions:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">Does the document describe reality? Yes: =
it tells us what practices operators employ today.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">Is the document useful? Yes: see above, =
plus it makes clear that there will be an impact to operators and/or =
protocol users from this evolution.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">Does the =
document establish an IETF position on encryption? No. There are plenty =
of other published RFCs that embody the spirit "encrypt all the things". =
This document does not change that.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">Does the =
document make normative statements about future protocol development? =
No.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">On what basis would I therefore oppose =
publication?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">I may or may not have =
opinions about prioritization of user privacy over manageability, the =
tussle between manageability and deployability, and what alternatives =
are available to operators for managing protocols with encrypted =
headers. I would be happy to help express those in a follow-on document. =
But this document describing where those conflicts lie is a =
*prerequisite* to developing those alternatives. And frankly those =
opinions are irrelevant to the intended content of *this* document.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">Kyle<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><span style=3D"caret-color:=
 rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Int-area mailing list</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Int-area@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">Int-area@ietf.org</a><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area</a></div></block=
quote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org
From: Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya2012@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 15:33:15 -0500
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To: Joseph Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
Cc: "<Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de>" <Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de>, Internet Area <int-area@ietf.org>, tsvwg@ietf.org, saag@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Int-area] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15, closes 29 June 2020
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+1

I think it is a good draft, out of very hard work, a lot of sweat.

Behcet

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 10:10 AM Joseph Touch <touch@strayalpha.com> wrote:

> -1
>
> Although it=E2=80=99s understandable to describe =E2=80=9Cwhat operators =
do=E2=80=9D, the IETF
> isn=E2=80=99t a news service. We typically summarize these behaviors to t=
ake a
> position on them.
>
> The draft provides a good description of the tradeoff between the privacy
> rights of endpoints and the rights of operators and the impact of both on
> protocol design on that tradeoff.
>
> What I seem to be seeing is increasing =E2=80=9Crough consensus=E2=80=9D =
that the summary
> position should be closer to endpoint privacy than in the current form.
>
> Although I don=E2=80=99t feel strongly that the text absolutely needs rev=
ision in
> that direction, I would oppose changes to relax or shift in the other
> direct.
>
> Joe
>
> On Jul 1, 2020, at 7:11 AM, Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de wrote:
>
> +1
> Thanks, Kyle!
> Kind regards
> Dirk
>
> *From:* Int-area <int-area-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Kyle Rose
> *Sent:* Mittwoch, 1. Juli 2020 15:57
> *To:* Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
> *Cc:* int-area <int-area@ietf.org>; tsvwg@ietf.org; IETF SAAG <
> saag@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Int-area] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope):
> draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15, closes 29 June 2020
>
> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 9:20 AM Hannes Tschofenig <
> Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
>
> I noticed this in various IETF discussions and so I will describe it in
> the abstract.
>
> A group of people propose an idea. Those who do not like the idea are the=
n
> asked to convince the original contributors that their idea is not sound =
or
> contribute text so make it look nicer.
> Not only is this requiring me to spend my time on something I don=E2=80=
=99t agree
> with but it turns out that no discussions will change the mind of the
> original contributors. They just strongly believe in their ideas. They wi=
ll
> keep proposing the same idea over and over again (for years) till it gets
> published as an RFC..
>
>
> I don't understand why so many are opposed to publishing a document that
> merely describes how operators manage protocols in the absence of header
> encryption, and how header encryption interferes with those practices. Th=
at
> is, at least, in its original form, before this WG decided it needed to
> incorporate pro-encryption advocacy, greatly complicating the document an=
d
> the resulting analysis.
>
> For the OG version, I ask myself the following questions:
>
> Does the document describe reality? Yes: it tells us what practices
> operators employ today.
> Is the document useful? Yes: see above, plus it makes clear that there
> will be an impact to operators and/or protocol users from this evolution.
> Does the document establish an IETF position on encryption? No. There are
> plenty of other published RFCs that embody the spirit "encrypt all the
> things". This document does not change that.
> Does the document make normative statements about future protocol
> development? No.
>
> On what basis would I therefore oppose publication?
>
> I may or may not have opinions about prioritization of user privacy over
> manageability, the tussle between manageability and deployability, and wh=
at
> alternatives are available to operators for managing protocols with
> encrypted headers. I would be happy to help express those in a follow-on
> document. But this document describing where those conflicts lie is a
> *prerequisite* to developing those alternatives. And frankly those opinio=
ns
> are irrelevant to the intended content of *this* document.
>
> Kyle
> _______________________________________________
> Int-area mailing list
> Int-area@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> saag mailing list
> saag@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/saag
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">+1<br><div><br></div><div>I think it is a good draft, out =
of very hard work, a lot of sweat.</div><div><br></div><div>Behcet</div></d=
iv><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On =
Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 10:10 AM Joseph Touch &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:touch@stray=
alpha.com">touch@strayalpha.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bo=
rder-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">-1<div><br=
></div><div>Although it=E2=80=99s understandable to describe =E2=80=9Cwhat =
operators do=E2=80=9D, the IETF isn=E2=80=99t a news service. We typically =
summarize these behaviors to take a position on them.</div><div><br></div><=
div>The draft provides a good description of the tradeoff between the priva=
cy rights of endpoints and the rights of operators and the impact of both o=
n protocol design on that tradeoff.</div><div><br></div><div>What I seem to=
 be seeing is increasing =E2=80=9Crough consensus=E2=80=9D that the summary=
 position should be closer to endpoint privacy than in the current form.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Although I don=E2=80=99t feel strongly that the text=
 absolutely needs revision in that direction, I would oppose changes to rel=
ax or shift in the other direct.</div><div><br></div><div>Joe<br><div><br><=
blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jul 1, 2020, at 7:11 AM, <a href=3D"mailto=
:Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de</a> w=
rote:</div><br><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font=
-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:no=
rmal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norma=
l;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.000=
1pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">+=
1<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Thanks, Kyle!<=
u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
2pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,78,121)">Kind regards<u><=
/u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt=
;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,78,121)">Dirk<u></u><u></u><=
/span></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;T=
imes New Roman&quot;,serif"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>=C2=A0</span>Int-a=
rea &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:int-area-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">int-area-bounces@ietf.org</a>&=
gt;<span>=C2=A0</span><b>On Behalf Of<span>=C2=A0</span></b>Kyle Rose<br><b=
>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Mittwoch, 1. Juli 2020 15:57<br><b>To:</b><spa=
n>=C2=A0</span>Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@ar=
m.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">H=
annes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>int-area &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:int-area@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" target=3D"_blank">int-area@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<span>=C2=A0</spa=
n><a href=3D"mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank">tsvwg@ietf.org</a>; IETF SAAG &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:saag@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank">saag@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Re: =
[Int-area] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encr=
ypt-15, closes 29 June 2020<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,ser=
if"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0=
.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">On We=
d, Jul 1, 2020 at 9:20 AM Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Ts=
chofenig@arm.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv></div><div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border=
-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;=
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US">I noticed this in various IETF discussions and so I will d=
escribe it in the abstract.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,ser=
if"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;=
,serif"><span lang=3D"EN-US">A group of people propose an idea. Those who d=
o not like the idea are then asked to convince the original contributors th=
at their idea is not sound or contribute text so make it look nicer.<span>=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001=
pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">Not only is this requiring me to spend my time on something I do=
n=E2=80=99t agree with but it turns out that no discussions will change the=
 mind of the original contributors. They just strongly believe in their ide=
as. They will keep proposing the same idea over and over again (for years) =
till it gets published as an RFC..<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div></=
blockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;T=
imes New Roman&quot;,serif">I don&#39;t understand why so many are opposed =
to publishing a document that merely describes how operators manage protoco=
ls in the absence of header encryption, and how header encryption interfere=
s with those practices. That is, at least, in its original form, before thi=
s WG decided it needed to incorporate pro-encryption advocacy, greatly comp=
licating the document and the resulting analysis.<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;,serif">For the OG version, I ask myself the following questions:<=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u=
></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;=
font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Does the document describe r=
eality? Yes: it tells us what practices operators employ today.<u></u><u></=
u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12=
pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Is the document useful? Y=
es: see above, plus it makes clear that there will be an impact to operator=
s and/or protocol users from this evolution.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif">Does the document establish an IETF position on en=
cryption? No. There are plenty of other published RFCs that embody the spir=
it &quot;encrypt all the things&quot;. This document does not change that.<=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Does the document ma=
ke normative statements about future protocol development? No.<u></u><u></u=
></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">On what basis would I therefore oppose public=
ation?<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-=
size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></=
u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">I may or may not have opinions about =
prioritization of user privacy over manageability, the tussle between manag=
eability and deployability, and what alternatives are available to operator=
s for managing protocols with encrypted headers. I would be happy to help e=
xpress those in a follow-on document. But this document describing where th=
ose conflicts lie is a *prerequisite* to developing those alternatives. And=
 frankly those opinions are irrelevant to the intended content of *this* do=
cument.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt=
;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:=
12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Kyle<u></u><u></u></div=
></div></div></div></div><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12p=
x;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spac=
ing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">__=
_____________________________________________</span><br style=3D"font-famil=
y:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-var=
iant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;=
text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Int-area mailing list</span><b=
r style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-vari=
ant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text=
-decoration:none"><a href=3D"mailto:Int-area@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purpl=
e;text-decoration:underline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style=
:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;t=
ext-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word=
-spacing:0px" target=3D"_blank">Int-area@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font=
-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-=
transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><a=
 href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area" style=3D"color:pur=
ple;text-decoration:underline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-sty=
le:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int=
-area</a></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>_________________________=
______________________<br>
saag mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:saag@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">saag@ietf.org</a><br>
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Subject: Re: [Int-area] [tsvwg] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15, closes 29 June 2020
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From: Int-area <int-area-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Colin Perkins <csp@=
csperkins.org>=0A=
Sent: 01 July 2020 10:57=0A=
On 30 Jun 2020, at 01:59, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com<mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>=
 wrote:=0A=
=0A=
> This 3rd WGLC is limited to the following two topics:=0A=
>     Whether or not to proceed with a request for RFC publication=0A=
> of the draft.   The decision on whether or not to proceed will=0A=
> be based on rough consensus of the WG, see RFC 7282.=0A=
=0A=
Publish.=0A=
=0A=
Operators need help in understanding the impact of emerging technology on t=
heir ability to operate a network.  This may not be easy to understand but =
it does at least provide something to stick out and alert them.=0A=
=0A=
Tom Petch=0A=
=0A=
> During the 2nd WGLC, Eric Rescorla and David Schinazi expressed=0A=
> strong views that this draft should not be published =96  those=0A=
> concerns have not been resolved and are carried forward to=0A=
> this WGLC.  This email message was an attempt to summarize=0A=
> those concerns:=0A=
>=0A=
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/i4qyY1HRqKwm0Jme9UtEb6DyhXU/=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Further explanation from both Eric Rescorla and David Schinazi=0A=
> is welcome and encouraged to ensure that their concerns are=0A=
> clearly understood.=0A=
=0A=
Well, I'll try again, but I'm not sure that I can do better than=0A=
I have before.=0A=
=0A=
For reasons that are laid out in RFC 7258, the trend in protocol=0A=
design in IETF is towards encrypting more and more.=0A=
=0A=
I agree, but also note that RFC 7258 is clear that some network monitoring =
can be beneficial and that =93an appropriate balance=94 has to be found bet=
ween mitigating pervasive monitoring and supporting network management. Thi=
s draft is intended to highlight issues to be considered by transport proto=
col designers, to help them find that balance.=0A=
=0A=
And, to be clear, if transport protocol designers consider the issues and d=
ecide that all the metadata in their transport protocol must be encrypted, =
that=92s fine. We're not pushing for a particular outcome; rather that the =
issues be considered and discussed when making a decision on what to encryp=
t.=0A=
=0A=
The last two=0A=
transport protocols that were designed and widely deployed (SCTP over=0A=
DTLS and QUIC) both encrypt the vast majority of the protocol=0A=
metadata. This document advertises itself as "considerations"=0A=
for design of such protocols:=0A=
=0A=
   The transport protocols developed for the Internet are used across a=0A=
   wide range of paths across network segments with many different=0A=
   regulatory, commercial, and engineering considerations.  This=0A=
   document considers some of the costs and changes to network=0A=
   management and research that are implied by widespread use of=0A=
   transport protocols that encrypt their transport header information.=0A=
   It reviews the implications of developing transport protocols that=0A=
   use end-to-end encryption to provide confidentiality of their=0A=
   transport layer headers, and considers the effect of such changes on=0A=
   transport protocol design, transport protocol evolution, and network=0A=
   operations.  It also considers some anticipated implications on=0A=
   application evolution.  This provides considerations relating to the=0A=
   design of transport protocols and features where the transport=0A=
   protocol encrypts some or all of their header information.=0A=
=0A=
However, as I said above, the new transport protocols that are=0A=
actually being designed already feature metadata encryption and as far=0A=
as I can tell, there is no prospective protocol new transport protocol=0A=
design project for which these issues might be live.=0A=
=0A=
The issues highlighted in the draft were certainly considered in the design=
 of QUIC, especially in the discussions around the spin bit and operational=
 aspects. I cannot envisage that they won=92t also be considered in the des=
ign of future transports.=0A=
=0A=
In that context,=0A=
it's hard not to read this document with its long litany of practices=0A=
which are impacted by metadata encryption as a critique of the=0A=
decisions by SCTP/DTLS and QUIC to encrypt most of the metadata.=0A=
=0A=
I tend to regard critiques of protocol design as a good thing, but then we =
maybe have a different interpretations of that term. Certainly there are im=
plications of the decision to encrypt transport metadata. There are benefit=
s to it, but also costs. It=92s important to understand both, to make an in=
formed judgement on what to encrypt.=0A=
=0A=
This impression is reinforced by the description of the actual=0A=
practices themselves, which focuses almost entirely on practices=0A=
which appear to be benignly motivated (e.g., performance monitoring,=0A=
troubleshooting, etc.) However, we also know that metadata is widely=0A=
used for practices in which the network operator is adversarial=0A=
to the user, for instance:=0A=
=0A=
- Blocking traffic based on TCP port, IP address, SNI, etc.=0A=
=0A=
- Performance-based traffic class discrimination=0A=
=0A=
- Monitoring the user's behavior via indicia like the ones above=0A=
  or via traffic analysis (see [0])=0A=
=0A=
Yes, I understand that the authors explicitly disclaim judgement on=0A=
these practices, and the document does briefly touch on the general=0A=
idea, though the "concerns...have been voiced" tends to minimize those=0A=
concerns [1] but the selection of practices to focus on is extremely=0A=
telling. Focusing on the downsides of encryption for (at least=0A=
arguably well-meaning) network players while mostly ignoring the large=0A=
class of non-benign behaviors which encryption is intended to protect=0A=
against has the effect of overemphasizing the costs of encryption to=0A=
those players and minimizing the benefits to the endpoints whom it is=0A=
intended to protect.=0A=
=0A=
Different communities have different interpretations on what=92s the neutra=
l point of view phrasing here, but I'm comfortable with further highlightin=
g malicious uses of transport metadata in the draft. We=92d tried to mostly=
 do this by reference, since such things have been widely discussed in the =
past, but perhaps that=92s not sufficient.=0A=
=0A=
To be maximally clear: I don't object to this document existing=0A=
and I don't think that the opinions implicit in it are ones that=0A=
should not be expressed. I merely don't think that it should be=0A=
published as an IETF Consensus document.=0A=
=0A=
-Ekr=0A=
=0A=
[0] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wood-pearg-website-fingerprinting-00#=
section-5=0A=
[1]    Another motivation stems from increased concerns about privacy and=
=0A=
      surveillance.  Users value the ability to protect their identity=0A=
      and location, and defend against analysis of the traffic.=0A=
      Revelations about the use of pervasive surveillance [RFC7624]=0A=
      have, to some extent, eroded trust in the service offered by=0A=
      network operators and have led to an increased use of encryption=0A=
      to avoid unwanted eavesdropping on communications.  Concerns have=0A=
      also been voiced about the addition of information to packets by=0A=
      third parties to provide analytics, customisation, advertising,=0A=
      cross-site tracking of users, to bill the customer, or to=0A=
      selectively allow or block content.  Whatever the reasons, the=0A=
      IETF is designing protocols that include transport header=0A=
      encryption (e.g., QUIC [I-D.ietf-quic-transport]) to supplement=0A=
      the already widespread payload encryption, and to further limit=0A=
      exposure of transport metadata to the network.=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
--=0A=
Colin Perkins=0A=
https://csperkins.org/=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=


From nobody Thu Jul  2 05:16:22 2020
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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 07:15:40 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKKJt-dc7a8zNx8qh1EhE1yPP44LMqmA8OCJ0-oGoMe4jR5aDg@mail.gmail.com>
To: tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>
Cc: Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, int-area <int-area@ietf.org>,  "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>, IETF SAAG <saag@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/int-area/RTBnRWc1loaeXo2GIkbxkklaSrY>
Subject: Re: [Int-area] [tsvwg] [saag] 3rd WGLC (limited-scope): draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15, closes 29 June 2020
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Top-posting to note that this "WGLC" is now being copied to INT-AREA and
SAAG, people are making statements about value to operators (but no
operator-area entity is being copied), and people are making statements
about whether this could be published in the IETF stream, with the IETF
consensus boilerplate.

All of these are fine conversations during *IETF* Last Call, and it seems
like we're about halfway to including the rest of the IETF in the WGLC
anyway, but is this a sign that the discussion has moved beyond WGLC, so
the venue for the discussion should move, too?

And this isn't remotely my call. I just had to ask.

Best,

Spencer, not ranting

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 6:00 AM tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com> wrote:

> From: Int-area <int-area-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Colin Perkins <
> csp@csperkins.org>
> Sent: 01 July 2020 10:57
> On 30 Jun 2020, at 01:59, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com<mailto:ekr@rtfm.com=
>>
> wrote:
>
> > This 3rd WGLC is limited to the following two topics:
> >     Whether or not to proceed with a request for RFC publication
> > of the draft.   The decision on whether or not to proceed will
> > be based on rough consensus of the WG, see RFC 7282.
>
> Publish.
>
> Operators need help in understanding the impact of emerging technology on
> their ability to operate a network.  This may not be easy to understand b=
ut
> it does at least provide something to stick out and alert them.
>
> Tom Petch
>
> > During the 2nd WGLC, Eric Rescorla and David Schinazi expressed
> > strong views that this draft should not be published =E2=80=93  those
> > concerns have not been resolved and are carried forward to
> > this WGLC.  This email message was an attempt to summarize
> > those concerns:
> >
> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/i4qyY1HRqKwm0Jme9UtEb6DyhXU=
/
> >
> > Further explanation from both Eric Rescorla and David Schinazi
> > is welcome and encouraged to ensure that their concerns are
> > clearly understood.
>
> Well, I'll try again, but I'm not sure that I can do better than
> I have before.
>
> For reasons that are laid out in RFC 7258, the trend in protocol
> design in IETF is towards encrypting more and more.
>
> I agree, but also note that RFC 7258 is clear that some network monitorin=
g
> can be beneficial and that =E2=80=9Can appropriate balance=E2=80=9D has t=
o be found between
> mitigating pervasive monitoring and supporting network management. This
> draft is intended to highlight issues to be considered by transport
> protocol designers, to help them find that balance.
>
> And, to be clear, if transport protocol designers consider the issues and
> decide that all the metadata in their transport protocol must be encrypte=
d,
> that=E2=80=99s fine. We're not pushing for a particular outcome; rather t=
hat the
> issues be considered and discussed when making a decision on what to
> encrypt.
>
> The last two
> transport protocols that were designed and widely deployed (SCTP over
> DTLS and QUIC) both encrypt the vast majority of the protocol
> metadata. This document advertises itself as "considerations"
> for design of such protocols:
>
>    The transport protocols developed for the Internet are used across a
>    wide range of paths across network segments with many different
>    regulatory, commercial, and engineering considerations.  This
>    document considers some of the costs and changes to network
>    management and research that are implied by widespread use of
>    transport protocols that encrypt their transport header information.
>    It reviews the implications of developing transport protocols that
>    use end-to-end encryption to provide confidentiality of their
>    transport layer headers, and considers the effect of such changes on
>    transport protocol design, transport protocol evolution, and network
>    operations.  It also considers some anticipated implications on
>    application evolution.  This provides considerations relating to the
>    design of transport protocols and features where the transport
>    protocol encrypts some or all of their header information.
>
> However, as I said above, the new transport protocols that are
> actually being designed already feature metadata encryption and as far
> as I can tell, there is no prospective protocol new transport protocol
> design project for which these issues might be live.
>
> The issues highlighted in the draft were certainly considered in the
> design of QUIC, especially in the discussions around the spin bit and
> operational aspects. I cannot envisage that they won=E2=80=99t also be co=
nsidered
> in the design of future transports.
>
> In that context,
> it's hard not to read this document with its long litany of practices
> which are impacted by metadata encryption as a critique of the
> decisions by SCTP/DTLS and QUIC to encrypt most of the metadata.
>
> I tend to regard critiques of protocol design as a good thing, but then w=
e
> maybe have a different interpretations of that term. Certainly there are
> implications of the decision to encrypt transport metadata. There are
> benefits to it, but also costs. It=E2=80=99s important to understand both=
, to make
> an informed judgement on what to encrypt.
>
> This impression is reinforced by the description of the actual
> practices themselves, which focuses almost entirely on practices
> which appear to be benignly motivated (e.g., performance monitoring,
> troubleshooting, etc.) However, we also know that metadata is widely
> used for practices in which the network operator is adversarial
> to the user, for instance:
>
> - Blocking traffic based on TCP port, IP address, SNI, etc.
>
> - Performance-based traffic class discrimination
>
> - Monitoring the user's behavior via indicia like the ones above
>   or via traffic analysis (see [0])
>
> Yes, I understand that the authors explicitly disclaim judgement on
> these practices, and the document does briefly touch on the general
> idea, though the "concerns...have been voiced" tends to minimize those
> concerns [1] but the selection of practices to focus on is extremely
> telling. Focusing on the downsides of encryption for (at least
> arguably well-meaning) network players while mostly ignoring the large
> class of non-benign behaviors which encryption is intended to protect
> against has the effect of overemphasizing the costs of encryption to
> those players and minimizing the benefits to the endpoints whom it is
> intended to protect.
>
> Different communities have different interpretations on what=E2=80=99s th=
e neutral
> point of view phrasing here, but I'm comfortable with further highlightin=
g
> malicious uses of transport metadata in the draft. We=E2=80=99d tried to =
mostly do
> this by reference, since such things have been widely discussed in the
> past, but perhaps that=E2=80=99s not sufficient.
>
> To be maximally clear: I don't object to this document existing
> and I don't think that the opinions implicit in it are ones that
> should not be expressed. I merely don't think that it should be
> published as an IETF Consensus document.
>
> -Ekr
>
> [0]
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wood-pearg-website-fingerprinting-00#se=
ction-5
> [1]    Another motivation stems from increased concerns about privacy and
>       surveillance.  Users value the ability to protect their identity
>       and location, and defend against analysis of the traffic.
>       Revelations about the use of pervasive surveillance [RFC7624]
>       have, to some extent, eroded trust in the service offered by
>       network operators and have led to an increased use of encryption
>       to avoid unwanted eavesdropping on communications.  Concerns have
>       also been voiced about the addition of information to packets by
>       third parties to provide analytics, customisation, advertising,
>       cross-site tracking of users, to bill the customer, or to
>       selectively allow or block content.  Whatever the reasons, the
>       IETF is designing protocols that include transport header
>       encryption (e.g., QUIC [I-D.ietf-quic-transport]) to supplement
>       the already widespread payload encryption, and to further limit
>       exposure of transport metadata to the network.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Colin Perkins
> https://csperkins.org/
>
>
>
>
>
>

--00000000000087814805a9745f95
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Top-posting to note that this &quot;WGLC&quot; is now=
 being copied to INT-AREA and SAAG, people are making statements about valu=
e to operators (but no operator-area entity is being copied), and people ar=
e making statements about whether this could be published in the IETF strea=
m, with the IETF consensus boilerplate.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>All =
of these are fine conversations during *IETF* Last Call, and it seems like =
we&#39;re about halfway to including the rest of the IETF in the WGLC anywa=
y, but is this a sign that the discussion has moved beyond WGLC, so the ven=
ue for the discussion should move, too?</div><div><br></div><div>And this i=
sn&#39;t remotely my call. I just had to ask.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Spencer, not ranting</div><div><br></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul=
 2, 2020 at 6:00 AM tom petch &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietfc@btconnect.com">ie=
tfc@btconnect.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex">From: Int-area &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:int-area-bounces@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">int-area-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Coli=
n Perkins &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:csp@csperkins.org" target=3D"_blank">csp@cs=
perkins.org</a>&gt;<br>
Sent: 01 July 2020 10:57<br>
On 30 Jun 2020, at 01:59, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; This 3rd WGLC is limited to the following two topics:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Whether or not to proceed with a request for RFC pu=
blication<br>
&gt; of the draft.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The decision on whether or not to proceed wi=
ll<br>
&gt; be based on rough consensus of the WG, see RFC 7282.<br>
<br>
Publish.<br>
<br>
Operators need help in understanding the impact of emerging technology on t=
heir ability to operate a network.=C2=A0 This may not be easy to understand=
 but it does at least provide something to stick out and alert them.<br>
<br>
Tom Petch<br>
<br>
&gt; During the 2nd WGLC, Eric Rescorla and David Schinazi expressed<br>
&gt; strong views that this draft should not be published =E2=80=93=C2=A0 t=
hose<br>
&gt; concerns have not been resolved and are carried forward to<br>
&gt; this WGLC.=C2=A0 This email message was an attempt to summarize<br>
&gt; those concerns:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/i4qyY1HRqKwm0Jm=
e9UtEb6DyhXU/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://mailarchive.iet=
f.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/i4qyY1HRqKwm0Jme9UtEb6DyhXU/</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Further explanation from both Eric Rescorla and David Schinazi<br>
&gt; is welcome and encouraged to ensure that their concerns are<br>
&gt; clearly understood.<br>
<br>
Well, I&#39;ll try again, but I&#39;m not sure that I can do better than<br=
>
I have before.<br>
<br>
For reasons that are laid out in RFC 7258, the trend in protocol<br>
design in IETF is towards encrypting more and more.<br>
<br>
I agree, but also note that RFC 7258 is clear that some network monitoring =
can be beneficial and that =E2=80=9Can appropriate balance=E2=80=9D has to =
be found between mitigating pervasive monitoring and supporting network man=
agement. This draft is intended to highlight issues to be considered by tra=
nsport protocol designers, to help them find that balance.<br>
<br>
And, to be clear, if transport protocol designers consider the issues and d=
ecide that all the metadata in their transport protocol must be encrypted, =
that=E2=80=99s fine. We&#39;re not pushing for a particular outcome; rather=
 that the issues be considered and discussed when making a decision on what=
 to encrypt.<br>
<br>
The last two<br>
transport protocols that were designed and widely deployed (SCTP over<br>
DTLS and QUIC) both encrypt the vast majority of the protocol<br>
metadata. This document advertises itself as &quot;considerations&quot;<br>
for design of such protocols:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The transport protocols developed for the Internet are used ac=
ross a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0wide range of paths across network segments with many differen=
t<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0regulatory, commercial, and engineering considerations.=C2=A0 =
This<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0document considers some of the costs and changes to network<br=
>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0management and research that are implied by widespread use of<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0transport protocols that encrypt their transport header inform=
ation.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0It reviews the implications of developing transport protocols =
that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0use end-to-end encryption to provide confidentiality of their<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0transport layer headers, and considers the effect of such chan=
ges on<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0transport protocol design, transport protocol evolution, and n=
etwork<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0operations.=C2=A0 It also considers some anticipated implicati=
ons on<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0application evolution.=C2=A0 This provides considerations rela=
ting to the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0design of transport protocols and features where the transport=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol encrypts some or all of their header information.<br>
<br>
However, as I said above, the new transport protocols that are<br>
actually being designed already feature metadata encryption and as far<br>
as I can tell, there is no prospective protocol new transport protocol<br>
design project for which these issues might be live.<br>
<br>
The issues highlighted in the draft were certainly considered in the design=
 of QUIC, especially in the discussions around the spin bit and operational=
 aspects. I cannot envisage that they won=E2=80=99t also be considered in t=
he design of future transports.<br>
<br>
In that context,<br>
it&#39;s hard not to read this document with its long litany of practices<b=
r>
which are impacted by metadata encryption as a critique of the<br>
decisions by SCTP/DTLS and QUIC to encrypt most of the metadata.<br>
<br>
I tend to regard critiques of protocol design as a good thing, but then we =
maybe have a different interpretations of that term. Certainly there are im=
plications of the decision to encrypt transport metadata. There are benefit=
s to it, but also costs. It=E2=80=99s important to understand both, to make=
 an informed judgement on what to encrypt.<br>
<br>
This impression is reinforced by the description of the actual<br>
practices themselves, which focuses almost entirely on practices<br>
which appear to be benignly motivated (e.g., performance monitoring,<br>
troubleshooting, etc.) However, we also know that metadata is widely<br>
used for practices in which the network operator is adversarial<br>
to the user, for instance:<br>
<br>
- Blocking traffic based on TCP port, IP address, SNI, etc.<br>
<br>
- Performance-based traffic class discrimination<br>
<br>
- Monitoring the user&#39;s behavior via indicia like the ones above<br>
=C2=A0 or via traffic analysis (see [0])<br>
<br>
Yes, I understand that the authors explicitly disclaim judgement on<br>
these practices, and the document does briefly touch on the general<br>
idea, though the &quot;concerns...have been voiced&quot; tends to minimize =
those<br>
concerns [1] but the selection of practices to focus on is extremely<br>
telling. Focusing on the downsides of encryption for (at least<br>
arguably well-meaning) network players while mostly ignoring the large<br>
class of non-benign behaviors which encryption is intended to protect<br>
against has the effect of overemphasizing the costs of encryption to<br>
those players and minimizing the benefits to the endpoints whom it is<br>
intended to protect.<br>
<br>
Different communities have different interpretations on what=E2=80=99s the =
neutral point of view phrasing here, but I&#39;m comfortable with further h=
ighlighting malicious uses of transport metadata in the draft. We=E2=80=99d=
 tried to mostly do this by reference, since such things have been widely d=
iscussed in the past, but perhaps that=E2=80=99s not sufficient.<br>
<br>
To be maximally clear: I don&#39;t object to this document existing<br>
and I don&#39;t think that the opinions implicit in it are ones that<br>
should not be expressed. I merely don&#39;t think that it should be<br>
published as an IETF Consensus document.<br>
<br>
-Ekr<br>
<br>
[0] <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wood-pearg-website-fingerp=
rinting-00#section-5" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/draft-wood-pearg-website-fingerprinting-00#section-5</a><br>
[1]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Another motivation stems from increased concerns about pri=
vacy and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 surveillance.=C2=A0 Users value the ability to protect=
 their identity<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and location, and defend against analysis of the traff=
ic.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Revelations about the use of pervasive surveillance [R=
FC7624]<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 have, to some extent, eroded trust in the service offe=
red by<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 network operators and have led to an increased use of =
encryption<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to avoid unwanted eavesdropping on communications.=C2=
=A0 Concerns have<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 also been voiced about the addition of information to =
packets by<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 third parties to provide analytics, customisation, adv=
ertising,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 cross-site tracking of users, to bill the customer, or=
 to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 selectively allow or block content.=C2=A0 Whatever the=
 reasons, the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IETF is designing protocols that include transport hea=
der<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 encryption (e.g., QUIC [I-D.ietf-quic-transport]) to s=
upplement<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the already widespread payload encryption, and to furt=
her limit<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 exposure of transport metadata to the network.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Colin Perkins<br>
<a href=3D"https://csperkins.org/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://csperkins.org/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--00000000000087814805a9745f95--


From nobody Thu Jul  2 10:51:36 2020
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Subject: [Int-area] [www.ietf.org/rt #290601] RE: IETF 108 Preliminary Agenda
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Hi Mohamed,

Unfortunately there is no room available on Monday at 1410. Here are some other
spots that might work for DRIP:

Monday 1100 (vs dispatch, pearg, spring, sacm, teep, tcpm)
Thursday 1100 (vs extra, jmap, anima, raw, secdispatch, tsvwg, ANRW DNS and
BGP)

Would either of those be acceptable?

Liz
Secretariat



On Thu Jul 02 00:51:54 2020, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:

  Hi all, 
  
  Would it be possible to find another slot for the drip session as it conflicts with the add slot where both drip chairs have drafts to be discussed there. 
  
  ==
  1410-1550  Session III
  Room 2                  INT     add             Adaptive DNS Discovery WG
  Room 3                  INT     drip            Drone Remote ID Protocol WG
  ==
  
  Moving the drip session to the Monday 1410-1550 slot (there is no other INT session) would be perfect.
  
  Thanks you.
  
  Cheers,
  Med
  
  > -----Message d'origine-----
  > De : WGChairs [mailto:wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de IETF Agenda
  > Envoyé : samedi 27 juin 2020 01:41
  > À : Working Group Chairs
  > Objet : IETF 108 Preliminary Agenda
  > 
  > The IETF 108 preliminary agenda has been posted. The final agenda will be
  > published on Thursday, July 3, 2020.
  > 
  > If you would like to request a change to the preliminary agenda, please
  > send a message to agenda@ietf.org and copy all relevant Area Directors.
  > 
  > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/agenda.html
  > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/agenda.txt
  > 
  > 
  > The preliminary agenda includes all planned WG, RG, and ANRW sessions. We
  > are still finalizing details for a few of our usual meeting-adjacent
  > events, so please look out for further details about those. Information
  > about side meeting signups will be available when the final agenda is
  > posted.
  > 
  > Thank you!
  > 
  > IETF Secretariat
  
  
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From nobody Thu Jul  2 17:22:01 2020
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From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" <agenda@ietf.org>
To: <intarea-chairs@ietf.org>, <Wassim.Haddad@ericsson.com>
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Subject: [Int-area] intarea - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 108
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Dear Wassim Haddad,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 


    intarea Session 1 (0:50 requested)
    Monday, 27 July 2020, Session II 1300-1350
    Room Name: Room 3 size: 3
    ---------------------------------------------


iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/sessions/intarea.ics

Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Internet Area Working Group
Area Name: Internet Area
Session Requester: Wassim Haddad


Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  50 Minutes
Number of Attendees: 60
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 Chair Conflict: lpwan 6tisch 6lo dhc t2trg
 Technology Overlap: dnsop 6man v6ops saag tsvwg






People who must be present:
  Eric Vyncke
  Wassim Haddad
  Juan Carlos Zuniga

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------



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--_000_LEXPR01MB1040C937CACB87CB953E29869C6C0LEXPR01MB1040DEUP_--


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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 23:26:23 +0300 (EEST)
From: Vladimir OLTEANU <vladimir.olteanu@cs.pub.ro>
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Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-10.txt
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Subject: [Int-area] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-10.txt
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Hi,

In the latest iteration we've fleshed out the UDP relay a bit further. Barr=
ing any omissions, it now has a superset of TURN's features (with the abili=
ty to host UDP services and report some ICMP errors) and arguably simpler s=
emantics and better security.

Cheers,
Vlad

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: "Vladimir Olteanu" <vladimir.olteanu@cs.pub.ro>, "Drago=C8=99 Niculescu=
" <dragos.niculescu@cs.pub.ro>
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 2:04:09 AM
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-10.txt

A new version of I-D, draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-10.txt
has been successfully submitted by Vladimir Olteanu and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=09=09draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6
Revision:=0910
Title:=09=09SOCKS Protocol Version 6
Document date:=092020-07-13
Group:=09=09Individual Submission
Pages:=09=0943
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-olteanu-intarea-=
socks-6-10.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-olteanu-intarea-sock=
s-6/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-1=
0
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-olteanu-intarea=
-socks-6
Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-olteanu-intarea-s=
ocks-6-10

Abstract:
   The SOCKS protocol is used primarily to proxy TCP connections to
   arbitrary destinations via the use of a proxy server.  Under the
   latest version of the protocol (version 5), it takes 2 RTTs (or 3, if
   authentication is used) before data can flow between the client and
   the server.

   This memo proposes SOCKS version 6, which reduces the number of RTTs
   used, takes full advantage of TCP Fast Open, and adds support for
   0-RTT authentication.

                                                                           =
      =20


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


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Hello,

If anyone is interested in finding out more about NomCom or about standing =
for an I* position (or just wants to say Hi), please visit with NomCom duri=
ng office hours next week.


Thanks,
Wassim H.

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<html>
<head>
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</head>
<body>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size: 14.666666984558105px;">Hello,</s=
pan></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size: 14.666666984558105px;"><br>
</span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size: 14.666666984558105px;">If anyone=
 is interested in finding out more about NomCom or about standing for an I*=
 position (or just wants to say Hi), please visit with NomCom during office=
 hours next week.</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
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<div style=3D"direction: ltr;" dir=3D"ltr">Thanks,</div>
<div style=3D"direction: ltr;" dir=3D"ltr">Wassim H.</div>
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From nobody Mon Jul 27 07:41:32 2020
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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 17:38:09 +0300 (EEST)
From: Vladimir OLTEANU <vladimir.olteanu@cs.pub.ro>
To: int-area <int-area@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: SOCKS v6 implementation
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Subject: [Int-area] SOCKS v6 implementation
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Hello, 

In anticipation of the adoption call, I'd like to share the status of our SOCKS v6 implementation. 

We have the following pieces of software, all released under a very permissive license: 
* A library for creating and parsing SOCKS v6 requests and responses (incl. options and sanity checks). It's feature-complete as of -08: [ https://github.com/45G/libsocks6msg | https://github.com/45G/libsocks6msg ] 
* A utility library: [ https://github.com/45G/libsocks6util | https://github.com/45G/libsocks6util ] 
* A TCP proxy and transparent proxifier. (TCP Bind, UDP and v5-style authentication are not supported yet.) Most notable features are implemented: TLS1.3 with early data, idempotence, sessions, 0-RTT authentication, TFO, MPTCP and DNS. [ https://github.com/45G/sixtysocks | https://github.com/45G/sixtysocks ] 

Cheers, 
Vlad 

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<html><body><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 12pt; color: #000000"><div>Hello,</div><div><br data-mce-bogus=3D"1"><=
/div><div>In anticipation of the adoption call, I'd like to share the statu=
s of our SOCKS v6 implementation.</div><div><div style=3D"color: #000000; f=
ont-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: norm=
al; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:=
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acing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transf=
orm: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-=
stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration-style: initia=
l; text-decoration-color: initial;">We have the following pieces of softwar=
e, all released under a very permissive license:</div>&nbsp;* A library for=
 creating and parsing SOCKS v6 requests and responses (incl. options and sa=
nity checks). It's feature-complete as of -08:&nbsp;<span class=3D"Object" =
role=3D"link" id=3D"OBJ_PREFIX_DWT242_com_zimbra_url" style=3D"color: #005a=
95; text-decoration: none; cursor: pointer;" data-mce-style=3D"color: #005a=
95; text-decoration: none; cursor: pointer;"><a href=3D"https://github.com/=
45G/libsocks6msg" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: #005a95; text-decoratio=
n: none; cursor: pointer;" rel=3D"noopener" data-mce-href=3D"https://github=
.com/45G/libsocks6msg" data-mce-style=3D"color: #005a95; text-decoration: n=
one; cursor: pointer;">https://github.com/45G/libsocks6msg</a></span><div s=
tyle=3D"color: #000000; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-siz=
e: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-c=
aps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-ali=
gn: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; wid=
ows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color=
: #ffffff; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;"=
 data-mce-style=3D"color: #000000; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-seri=
f; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; fon=
t-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: =
2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; backg=
round-color: #ffffff; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color=
: initial;">&nbsp;* A utility library:&nbsp;<span class=3D"Object" role=3D"=
link" id=3D"OBJ_PREFIX_DWT243_com_zimbra_url" style=3D"color: #005a95; text=
-decoration: none; cursor: pointer;" data-mce-style=3D"color: #005a95; text=
-decoration: none; cursor: pointer;"><a href=3D"https://github.com/45G/libs=
ocks6util" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: #005a95; text-decoration: none=
; cursor: pointer;" rel=3D"noopener" data-mce-href=3D"https://github.com/45=
G/libsocks6util" data-mce-style=3D"color: #005a95; text-decoration: none; c=
ursor: pointer;">https://github.com/45G/libsocks6util</a></span></div><div =
style=3D"color: #000000; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-si=
ze: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-=
caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-al=
ign: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; wi=
dows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-colo=
r: #ffffff; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;=
" data-mce-style=3D"color: #000000; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-ser=
if; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; fo=
nt-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:=
 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:=
 normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; back=
ground-color: #ffffff; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-colo=
r: initial;">&nbsp;* A TCP proxy and transparent proxifier. (TCP Bind, UDP =
and v5-style authentication are not supported yet.) Most notable features a=
re implemented: TLS1.3 with early data, idempotence, sessions, 0-RTT authen=
tication, TFO, MPTCP and DNS.&nbsp;<span class=3D"Object" role=3D"link" id=
=3D"OBJ_PREFIX_DWT244_com_zimbra_url" style=3D"color: #005a95; text-decorat=
ion: none; cursor: pointer;" data-mce-style=3D"color: #005a95; text-decorat=
ion: none; cursor: pointer;"><a href=3D"https://github.com/45G/sixtysocks" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: #005a95; text-decoration: none; cursor: p=
ointer;" rel=3D"noopener" data-mce-href=3D"https://github.com/45G/sixtysock=
s" data-mce-style=3D"color: #005a95; text-decoration: none; cursor: pointer=
;">https://github.com/45G/sixtysocks</a></span></div><br style=3D"color: #0=
00000; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-sty=
le: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font=
-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-i=
ndent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spac=
ing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-d=
ecoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;" data-mce-style=
=3D"color: #000000; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 1=
6px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps:=
 normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows:=
 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #f=
fffff; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;"><di=
v style=3D"color: #000000; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-=
size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-varian=
t-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-=
align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-co=
lor: #ffffff; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initia=
l;" data-mce-style=3D"color: #000000; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-s=
erif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphan=
s: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-spac=
e: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ba=
ckground-color: #ffffff; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-co=
lor: initial;">Cheers,</div><div style=3D"color: #000000; font-family: aria=
l, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant=
-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spa=
cing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfo=
rm: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-s=
troke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration-style: initial=
; text-decoration-color: initial;" data-mce-style=3D"color: #000000; font-f=
amily: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; f=
ont-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;=
 letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; t=
ext-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -we=
bkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: #ffffff; text-decoration-sty=
le: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Vlad</div></div></div></body>=
</html>
--=_989397e8-164f-41ef-a801-169afef83e5e--


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Hi all,

The minutes have been uploaded - thanks a lot to Pascal for helping with th=
e notes!

Please take a look and let us know is there are any corrections/clarificati=
ons needed:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-108-intarea/

Best,

Juan Carlos & Wassim



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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The minutes have been uploaded &#8211; thanks a lot =
to Pascal for helping with the notes!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please take a look and let us know is there are any =
corrections/clarifications needed:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-=
108-intarea/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-108-intarea/</a><o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Juan Carlos &amp; Wassim<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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From nobody Mon Jul 27 15:07:50 2020
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From: "Black, David" <David.Black@dell.com>
To: tsvwg IETF list <tsvwg@ietf.org>
CC: IETF SAAG <saag@ietf.org>, int-area <int-area@ietf.org>, "Black, David" <David.Black@dell.com>
Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15: Conclusion of 3rd WGLC
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/int-area/hqcCIdMUI-A4cHdZ9g8m3l9ekCc>
Subject: [Int-area] draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15: Conclusion of 3rd WGLC
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This email reports the conclusion of the third (limited scope) WGLC on:

    Considerations around Transport Header Confidentiality, Network
     Operations, and the Evolution of Internet Transport Protocols
                 draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-15
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt/

(https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/UIw6tgdSs3AzOc3CFZgwR7HKk7A/)

The purpose of the 3rd Working Group Last Call (WGLC) was to deal with
two topics:

                1.            Whether or not to proceed with a request for =
RFC publication
                                of the draft.

                2.            Review of changes made since the -12 version =
of the draft
                                that was the subject of the second WGLC.

Starting with the second topic, the conclusion of the 3rd WGLC is that
the changes since the -12 version are generally ok.  A number of
editorial comments have been received by the authors and are reflected
in the -16 version of the draft.

The first topic (publication) is more complex.  Including the authors,
at least 10 responses to the WGLC have expressed support for publishing
this draft as a RFC.  That suffices to state that the rough consensus
of the TSVWG WG is proceed with publication of this draft in roughly
its current form, and in particular the rough consensus is not to add
material on encryption recommendations for transport protocol
designers, e.g., as requested by David Schinazi:
(https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/uqEBlJF-T3IiFzECZk-6GE3_-tA/).

That leaves the issue of how to publish the draft, in particular,
whether to publish it as an Informational RFC in the IETF Stream.
RFC 8789 has recently updated RFC 2026 to now require IETF Consensus
for IETF Stream Informational RFCs.  This issue is solely about IETF
consensus, e.g., as Eric Rescorla wrote at the conclusion of his
message on this issue:

   To be maximally clear: I don't object to this document existing
   and I don't think that the opinions implicit in it are ones that
   should not be expressed. I merely don't think that it should be
   published as an IETF Consensus document.

(https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/AValrZYGcb-n0SNA0niZJ2rW1Zo/)

The issue of this draft not being consistent with IETF consensus on
encryption usage is long-standing, having been raised at the first
WGLC on this draft, and it is also equally long-disputed, likewise
since the first WGLC on this draft.  Based on that history and the
3rd WGLC, I do not see TSVWG working group rough consensus one way or
the other on whether this draft is consistent with IETF consensus.
Proceeding further requires determining the IETF consensus on this
draft, and the TSVWG working group is not the best choice of forum
for determining IETF consensus in this specific situation.

In consultation with the responsible Area Director (Martin Duke), the
chosen path forward to a conclusion on this issue is to consult the
IETF community on IETF consensus via an IETF Last Call.  The fact that
IETF consensus (or lack thereof) on this draft is unknown and needs
to be determined will be explicitly noted in the shepherd writeup
for this draft and should be explicitly mentioned in the IETF Last
Call announcement for this draft.

Thanks, --David (TSVWG co-chair)
----------------------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Distinguished Engineer
Dell Technologies, Infrastructure Systems Group
176 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (774) 350-9323<tel:+17743509323>           Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754<tel=
:+19783947754>
David.Black@dell.com<mailto:David.Black@dell.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This email reports the conclusion of the third (limi=
ted scope) WGLC on:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Considerations around Transport H=
eader Confidentiality, Network<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Operations, and the Evoluti=
on of Internet Transport Protocols<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-enc=
rypt-15<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie=
tf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ts=
vwg-transport-encrypt/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(<a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ts=
vwg/UIw6tgdSs3AzOc3CFZgwR7HKk7A/">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsv=
wg/UIw6tgdSs3AzOc3CFZgwR7HKk7A/</a>)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The purpose of the 3rd Working Group Last Call (WGLC=
) was to deal with<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">two topics:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Whether or not to proceed with a request f=
or RFC publication<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; of the draft.<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Review of changes made since the -12 versi=
on of the draft<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that was the su=
bject of the second WGLC.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Starting with the second topic, the conclusion of th=
e 3rd WGLC is that<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">the changes since the -12 version are generally ok.&=
nbsp; A number of<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">editorial comments have been received by the authors=
 and are reflected<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">in the -16 version of the draft.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The first topic (publication) is more complex.&nbsp;=
 Including the authors,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">at least 10 responses to the WGLC have expressed sup=
port for publishing<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">this draft as a RFC.&nbsp; That suffices to state th=
at the rough consensus<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">of the TSVWG WG is proceed with publication of this =
draft in roughly<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">its current form, and in particular the rough consen=
sus is not to add<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">material on encryption recommendations for transport=
 protocol<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">designers, e.g., as requested by David Schinazi:<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(<a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ts=
vwg/uqEBlJF-T3IiFzECZk-6GE3_-tA/">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsv=
wg/uqEBlJF-T3IiFzECZk-6GE3_-tA/</a>).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That leaves the issue of how to publish the draft, i=
n particular,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">whether to publish it as an Informational RFC in the=
 IETF Stream.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">RFC 8789 has recently updated RFC 2026 to now requir=
e IETF Consensus<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">for IETF Stream Informational RFCs.&nbsp; This issue=
 is solely about IETF<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">consensus, e.g., as Eric Rescorla wrote at the concl=
usion of his<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">message on this issue:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; To be maximally clear: I don't object t=
o this document existing<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; and I don't think that the opinions imp=
licit in it are ones that<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; should not be expressed. I merely don't=
 think that it should be<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; published as an IETF Consensus document=
.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(<a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ts=
vwg/AValrZYGcb-n0SNA0niZJ2rW1Zo/">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsv=
wg/AValrZYGcb-n0SNA0niZJ2rW1Zo/</a>)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The issue of this draft not being consistent with IE=
TF consensus on<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">encryption usage is long-standing, having been raise=
d at the first<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">WGLC on this draft, and it is also equally long-disp=
uted, likewise<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">since the first WGLC on this draft.&nbsp; Based on t=
hat history and the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">3rd WGLC, I do not see TSVWG working group rough con=
sensus one way or<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">the other on whether this draft is consistent with I=
ETF consensus.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Proceeding further requires determining the IETF con=
sensus on this<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft, and the TSVWG working group is not the best c=
hoice of forum<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">for determining IETF consensus in this specific situ=
ation.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In consultation with the responsible Area Director (=
Martin Duke), the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">chosen path forward to a conclusion on this issue is=
 to consult the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IETF community on IETF consensus via an IETF Last Ca=
ll.&nbsp; The fact that<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IETF consensus (or lack thereof) on this draft is un=
known and needs<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">to be determined will be explicitly noted in the she=
pherd writeup<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">for this draft and should be explicitly mentioned in=
 the IETF Last<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Call announcement for this draft.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks, --David (TSVWG co-chair)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">----------------------------------------------------=
------------<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">David L. Black, Senior Distinguished Engineer<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dell Technologies, Infrastructure Systems Group<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">176 South St., Hopkinton, MA&nbsp; 01748<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"tel:+17743509323"><span style=3D"color:#0=
563C1">+1 (774) 350-9323</span></a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mobile:
<a href=3D"tel:+19783947754"><span style=3D"color:#0563C1">+1 (978) 394-775=
4</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:David.Black@dell.com"><span style=
=3D"color:#0563C1">David.Black@dell.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">----------------------------------------------------=
------------<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_MN2PR19MB4045C175EB3C3F6E3860B80C83720MN2PR19MB4045namp_--


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Subject: [Int-area] =?utf-8?q?RFC_8801_on_Discovering_Provisioning_Domain?= =?utf-8?q?_Names_and_Data?=
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

        
        RFC 8801

        Title:      Discovering Provisioning Domain Names and 
                    Data 
        Author:     P. Pfister,
                    É. Vyncke,
                    T. Pauly,
                    D. Schinazi,
                    W. Shao
        Status:     Standards Track
        Stream:     IETF
        Date:       July 2020
        Mailbox:    ppfister@cisco.com, 
                    evyncke@cisco.com, 
                    tpauly@apple.com,
                    dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com, 
                    wenshao@cisco.com
        Pages:      27
        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None

        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-intarea-provisioning-domains-11.txt

        URL:        https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8801

        DOI:        10.17487/RFC8801

Provisioning Domains (PvDs) are defined as consistent sets of network
configuration information. PvDs allows hosts to manage connections to
multiple networks and interfaces simultaneously, such as when a home
router provides connectivity through both a broadband and cellular
network provider.

This document defines a mechanism for explicitly identifying PvDs
through a Router Advertisement (RA) option. This RA option announces
a PvD identifier, which hosts can compare to differentiate between
PvDs. The option can directly carry some information about a PvD and
can optionally point to PvD Additional Information that can be
retrieved using HTTP over TLS.

This document is a product of the Internet Area Working Group Working Group of the IETF.

This is now a Proposed Standard.

STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet Standards Track
protocol for the Internet community, and requests discussion and suggestions
for improvements.  Please refer to the current edition of the Official
Internet Protocol Standards (https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards) for the 
standardization state and status of this protocol.  Distribution of this 
memo is unlimited.

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The RFC Editor Team
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/int-area/gYVVV9nO2PXaWj5989CW54CQcYE>
Subject: [Int-area] Joint RIPE MATWG / IRTF MAPRG session next Wednesday, Aug 5, 13:00 UTC
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