Subject: Human-regenerable IPv6 addresses

From: Pars Mutaf <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 20:18:35 +0200

Hello, 

I have updated my HUMID internet draft entitled:

"Human-regenerable IPv6 interface identifiers and addresses"

Until it appears at the IETF site, you can find it at the
following address if you're interested:

http://www.freewebs.com/pmutaf/draft-mutaf-ipv6humid-01.txt

I would very much appreciate your comments, if any.

Thanks
pars

ps: I'm using this simple technique in our IPv6 testbed
for recovering IPv6 addresses. It is really useful :-)
If you wish I can send you the implementation.

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From: Jeroen Massar <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 23:42:55 +0200

> http://www.freewebs.com/pmutaf/draft-mutaf-ipv6humid-01.txt

[don't read this as an overly negative reply...]

Why don't you: ping6 ff02::1
and then ssh into the server that has your DNS server running and fix it 
up? Or, why not use mDNS (http://www.multicastdns.org/) or SMB/CIFS 
nameresolution? Without DNS you have no network nowadays anyway.
Solving your missing DNS problem by (ab)using a large portion of the 
EUI-64 space is not something I think is very useful. It is a fun 
approach, but not very useful in common cases.

The 'name generation' is per definition flawed. Quite a number of people 
on this planet don't have names that map into ASCII, or when mapped 
according to your rules would maybe only have 4 letters over creating a 
collision. Next to that if you mistype "jeanfrancoisleroux", which is 
quite easy to do eg "johnfranslaroeks" ;) Or simple case, my own name, 
people tend to even say "jereon" or "jeroem" or "joeren", let alone the 
problem with pronunciation and then how people tend to write it ;)
Then again, only dutch folks seem to be able to pronounce it correctly.
Another issue I see is simply the case of 'forgetting the name'. People 
who can't fixup a DNS server, or use SMB/CIFS naming or similar tools 
also tend to forget their passwords and logins. Do they then all of a 
sudden have the availability of a SHA tool which directly converts the 
names in to those name addresses? Most people don't even have the 
ip6_arpa.pl script handy to lookup revers IPv6 DNS names ;)

Greets,
  Jeroen

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From: Pars Mutaf <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 11:37:32 +0200

> [don't read this as an overly negative reply...]

Hi Jeroen,

> Why don't you: ping6 ff02::1

Because when you do that, you got a lot replies. You don't
know who is who. 

> nameresolution? Without DNS you have no network nowadays anyway.

I believe the DNS server may be down (routing is independent). But 
if you don't agree, there are a lot of other things that may go 
wrong. Take the MIPv6 home agent, it may be unreachable. You can't 
get the destination's care-of-address. Only the home agent knows 
it, and it is unreachable.

Or, simply, there is no internet infrastructure in range. 

(please let me know when you finish reading the draft ;-)

> EUI-64 space is not something I think is very useful. 

Why do you think I'm (ab)using the EUI-64 space? We already have
random addresses. I missed something? 

> It is a fun 

I'm glad that you find that funny. But I'm really serious here ;-)
It is very useful in uncommon cases.

> The 'name generation' is per definition flawed. 

You are too much generalizing imho. 

> Quite a number of people 
> collision. 

I completely agree with you. I tried to make something 
universal. But I immediately realized that I have to learn 
spanish, chinese, etc... I dont even know if there is a white
space in chinese language. Some people are talented for 
learning foreign languages. I'm not like them.

Then, I decided to take it easy. I'm proposing this for the 
ASCII character set. If there is an interest, if possible, we 
can extend it.

> Next to that if you mistype "jeanfrancoisleroux", which is 
> quite easy to do eg "johnfranslaroeks" ;) 

Frankly I've no problem with typing jean francois le roux.
Please note that, you don't have to know all names in the world!
I'm sure there are a number of human names that you know
typing correctly (family, colleages, friends...). 

In this case, HUMID is useful for you.

> Or simple case, my own name, 

Good for them. Bad for the others. 

In fact, I don't think human is that stupid. We (humans) know in 
general that we might have done a mistake somewhere. 

The initiator will try:

jereon massar
jeroem massar
joeren massar

and finally contact you at jeroen massar! (hopefully)

Try to see this like a human scanning protocol. It may find you, 
or it may fail. I say it will mostly succeed.

> ip6_arpa.pl script handy to lookup revers IPv6 DNS names ;)

I couldn't understand your point. The host will do everything for 
the user. The user is only asked to enter the name.

Greets,
pars

---

From: Jeroen Massar <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 12:07:35 +0200

> Because when you do that, you got a lot replies. You don't

Thus your DNS server is down, even though you have a lot of hosts?
Are all these hosts using hard-coded address then, as that is what your 
HUMID proposal will end up being used for, unless you patch all the 
hosts to have a fake DNS resolver that actually does the HUMID calculation.

> (please let me know when you finish reading the draft ;-)

I read the draft and indeed it contained almost exactly what you write 
above, but that has nothing to do with what I wrote. That I don't 
comment on certain parts of the draft is not because I didn't read them 
but because those parts where not the main parts to address in the first 
place.

If you don't have a network in the first place, then you don't need 
resolving either as there is nothing to be reached.

If you want to have a network without DNS, then I suggest you look at 
things like mDNS, SMB/CIFS which already cover this and don't cause any 
naming problems or anything you have to remember. Also a local DNS 
server/cache is quite normal nowadays and thus doesn't require any 
internet infrastructure to be available. Just look at any out of the box 
"DSL router^WNAT box"

> random addresses. I missed something? 

As you will need to obtain a valid EUI-64 prefix to actually be using 
this address space validly. RFC3041 addresses also have a special prefix 
allocated and so will any local-part of the address.

Your draft also nicely mentions using DAD for dupe detection, what if 
two resources are named 'router', which is the resulting address that 
comes forth out of it? Or 'dns' as you want to fix that server but don't 
know it's address (but can guess the first 64bits...).

> It is very useful in uncommon cases.

In common cases people simply fix their DNS server.

[..]
> In this case, HUMID is useful for you.

The only 'name' you need to remember is that of the DNS server and the 
router, the latter is found at <prefix>::/64 (the subnet anycast address).

> general that we might have done a mistake somewhere. 

Technical people know indeed, but technical people also are smart enough 
to configure their DNS server correctly and/or when broken fix it.

People use google nowadays for looking up their things, they don't type 
in hostnames that much any more and they certainly will not start typing 
128 bit addresses made up out of hex chars which they need to calculate

[..]
> or it may fail. I say it will mostly succeed.

Do you know anybody who can do SHA-1 from the head? Even with pen and 
paper most people won't be able to do so as most people don't even know 
the algorithm. When you say 'but you can install a tool, download it 
from http://www... then you are using DNS.

I suggest you take a look at mDNS/SMB/CIFS for the needs you describe.
Secondly if you really think this draft has a value, talk to the folks 
in the dnsop WG what they think of it as they have a big history in name 
resolution, and that is what you are cooking up.

Greets,
  Jeroen

---

From: Pars Mutaf <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 14:11:14 +0200

> but because those parts where not the main parts to address in the first 

Jeroen, I appreciate your comments. But it seems to me that we have
a logical problem here.  I'm trying to present N different potential
motivations. You are dropping N-1 of them (you are not commenting on
them), and say that the last one is not enough.

Ok let's talk about the last one; the DNS. 

I remember having entered IPv4 addresses by heart to reach some 
servers because the DNS was down, in the past. I don't remember why. 
I wouldn't be surprised if the DNS server was down. Or, may be
there was a power cut. Now you will say, if there is a power cut,
everything is down all together. With 3 phase circuits this is not 
true. You have electricity in one room, you haven't in another room.
So, my host and the router may well be up, but the DNS server may be
down.

Or, imagine an ad-hoc scenario. Wireless 802.11 interfaces capable of
ad-hoc mode. A lot of them. There is no internet in range (hence no
DNS). You can use HUMID. 

These are not common cases, I agree. My proposal is about uncommon
cases. I don't really care about common cases, in fact (in this draft).

> allocated and so will any local-part of the address.

I'm using the same address construction as CGA (expect that the 
result is not a CGA, I'm saying that explicitely in the draft). 
Someone please tell me if this bad. 

> know it's address (but can guess the first 64bits...).

I never said that a router must have a humid address 
(nor DNS server). 

I'm proposing that for personal devices. 

In fact, thanks, I will clarify this in the draft.

> In common cases people simply fix their DNS server.

I already replied to that I think. Who fixes the DNS? Is 
he here today? Please don't assume that you are in a 
billion euro company. 

Or, what if there is no internet in range?

(these are not questions to you, because I know that 
they don't have anwsers)

> Technical people know indeed, 

No. Users. They are not stupid. They know "at least" typing the name 
of their friends, etc. They will mostly succeed.

> but technical people also are smart enough 
> the algorithm. 

And you think that that's what I proposed? Seriously?

> When you say 'but you can install a tool, download it 

Again, you are unfair. You have downloaded the tool, then later (6 days
later) the DNS has gone away. 

In the best case, this will be used in a standard Linux command. You'll
have it at installation time. But I'm trying to see if this breaks
something else. That's why I came to the IETF.

IETF standardization is needed also because otherwise everyone
will use a different hash function, a different collision count 
value, etc.

> I suggest you take a look at mDNS/SMB/CIFS for the needs you describe.

...
> resolution, and that is what you are cooking up.

OK. Thanks for this remark. I'll surely do that (for the DNS part). 
But some parts of the draft need this WG's approval.

Thanks,
pars