Subject: [Ltru] RE: [newsml-2] japanese scripts (was: person/name given and family elements)

From: Misha Wolf <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:20:47 +0000

It would be a bad idea to introduce a "script" attribute now, just before draft-ietf-ltru-registry [1] becomes an RFC, replacing RFC 3066.
 
[1] http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-ietf-ltru-registry/ 
 
Misha

________________________________

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Laurent Le Meur
Sent: 10 February 2006 11:33
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [newsml-2] japanese scripts (was: person/name given and family elements)

Takahiro, 

The xml:lang attribute can take values indicating a script: it is the case for zh-Hans and zh-Hant (Traditional vs. Simplified Chinese), isn't it?

I see that it is not currently used for Japanese scripts (kanji, katagana, hiragana).

I spotted:

http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/ 

"There is a need, sometimes, to distinguish the script used, in addition to the language. For example, Mongolian might be written in Mongolian script or Cyrillic; Croatian might be written in Latin or Cyrillic; ..."

Then http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-13.html#script 

"Script subtags are used to indicate the script or writing system variations that distinguish the written forms of a language or its dialects. The following rules apply to the script subtags: "

Then http://www.unicode.org/iso15924/iso15924-codes.html 

And found the tokens found in HR-ML samples 

- Hani (for Kanji)

- Kana (Katakana)

- Hrkt (alias for Hiragana + Katakana)

My question: Can't we already express script with xml:lang="jp-Hani" ?

(I imagine that it would not be RFC3066 compliant any more).

If not, should we then create a specific attribute, as a sibling of xml:lang, in all elements supporting strings, that will be deprecated when the replacement of RFC3066 is standardized? If so, why are we the only group looking at this problem?

Laurent

________________________________

De : [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] De la part de Takahiro FUJIWARA
Envoyé : lundi 16 janvier 2006 01:20
À : [email-masked]
Objet : Re: [newsml-2] FW: person/name given and family elements

I would explain from the view of Japanese people.

> With Japanese comes another factor: two scripts for one language.

Yes! this is the thing what I want to say.

   We always need two scripts in the application form such as resident registration, curriculum vitae(résumé), application form when the online shopping...

   One is for the formal printable name.  The other one is for the pronunciation.  There is many ways to write a pronunciation such as Hiragana, Katakana, multiple-romanisations.  But there is needed only one pronunciation in one application form because we can convert to another.  This pronunciation is also used for the name list with order by pronunciation.  Japanese people do not use order by Alphabetical nor order by Kanji.

Takahiro Fujiwara

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From: "Laurent Le Meur" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 18:36:48 +0100

Therefore your proposal is to explicitly and provisionally allow for
xml:lang=”jp-Hani”, isn’t it? 

Laurent

  _____  

De : [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] De la part de
Misha Wolf
Envoyé : vendredi 10 février 2006 18:21
À : [email-masked]
Cc : [email-masked]
Objet : RE: [newsml-2] japanese scripts (was: person/name given and family
elements)

It would be a bad idea to introduce a "script" attribute now, just before
draft-ietf-ltru-registry [1] becomes an RFC, replacing RFC 3066.

Misha

  _____  

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of
Laurent Le Meur
Sent: 10 February 2006 11:33
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [newsml-2] japanese scripts (was: person/name given and family
elements)

Takahiro, 

The xml:lang attribute can take values indicating a script: it is the case for
zh-Hans and zh-Hant (Traditional vs. Simplified Chinese), isn’t it?

I see that it is not currently used for Japanese scripts (kanji, katagana,
hiragana).

I spotted:

“There is a need, sometimes, to distinguish the script used, in addition to the
language. For example, Mongolian might be written in Mongolian script or
Cyrillic; Croatian might be written in Latin or Cyrillic; ...”

“Script subtags are used to indicate the script or writing system variations
that distinguish the written forms of a language or its dialects. The following
rules apply to the script subtags: “

- Hani (for Kanji)

- Kana (Katakana)

My question: Can’t we already express script with xml:lang=”jp-Hani” ?

If not, should we then create a specific attribute, as a sibling of xml:lang, in
all elements supporting strings, that will be deprecated when the replacement of
RFC3066 is standardized? If so, why are we the only group looking at this
problem?

Laurent

  _____  

De : [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] De la part de
Takahiro FUJIWARA
Envoyé : lundi 16 janvier 2006 01:20
À : [email-masked]
Objet : Re: [newsml-2] FW: person/name given and family elements

   We always need two scripts in the application form such as resident
registration, curriculum vitae(résumé), application form when the online
shopping...

   One is for the formal printable name.  The other one is for the
pronunciation.  There is many ways to write a pronunciation such as Hiragana,
Katakana, multiple-romanisations.  But there is needed only one pronunciation in
one application form because we can convert to another.  This pronunciation is
also used for the name list with order by pronunciation.  Japanese people do not
use order by Alphabetical nor order by Kanji.

Takahiro Fujiwara

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---

From: John Cowan <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 01:24:45 -0500

> xml:lang=”jp-Hani”, isn’t it? 

The trouble with that is that full-script Japanese is not simply Han
script, but Han+katakana+hiragana+Latin.  In the pre-release version
of ISO 15924's registry, there was a code "Japn" for this combination.
I think it's time to press the ISO 15924/MA to reactivate this code.

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