Subject: Re: [nwcrg] Potential Network Coding IRTF activity

From: "Firoiu, Victor (US SSA)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 21:25:41 +0000

To all interested in the Network Coding IRTF proposed research group:

We have now a dedicated mailing list hosted by IETF/IRTF:

[email-masked]

You can find all information about the list, archives and how to subscribe at

https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/nwcrg

I invite you to subscribe to the list and use it for all your comments 
and contributions.
Please let me know if you need help to subscribe.

Our first topic is to define our scope and objectives in a charter.

This is my last message to this ad-hoc list; we'll meet again on the 
[email-masked]

All the best,

Victor Firoiu
[email-masked]

Brian Adamson
[email-masked]

On 11/11/2012 03:52 AM, Muriel Medard wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I have reached out to Doug Leith, cced, and I am delighted that he would like to participate.
>
> Best,
>
> Muriel.
>
>
> On Nov 9, 2012, at 11:00 PM, Brian Adamson wrote:
>
>> I think you got my point but I meant to say "inviting them to participate", not "making them participate" :-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Nov 9, 2012, at 4:35 PM, Muriel Medard <[email-masked]> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you!
>>>
>>> Muriel.
>>>
>>> On Nov 9, 2012, at 10:51 AM, Brian Adamson wrote:
>>>
>>>> No problem to include him.  We encourage making anyone of doing work in this area to participate.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 9, 2012, at 10:21 AM, Muriel Medard <[email-masked]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>> going back to my previous request, Doug Leith at the Hamilton Institue has been doing the most extensive testing of network coded TCP over his testbed and I think his input would be invaluable. Are there any objections to asking him to join us?
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Muriel.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 8, 2012, at 5:13 PM, Tracey Ho wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm happy to participate as well. There are various definitions of network coding that differ in how broad/inclusive they are – I favor being on the inclusive side since there are interesting techniques coming out of network coding that might not be interpreted as network coding in the narrowest sense.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Tracey
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Emmanuel Lochin [mailto:[email-masked]]
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 5:57 AM
>>>>>> To: Muriel Medard
>>>>>> Cc: Firoiu, Victor (US SSA); Fall, Kevin; Vincent Roca; Brian Adamson; Hitoshi Asaeda; David Ward; Joe Macker; Ulrich Herberg; Magnus Westerlund; Rod Walsh; David Shur; Claudiu Danilov; Tom Henderson; Sunil Samtani; Ian Chakeres; NRL Sastry Kompella; [email-masked]; Jérôme Lacan; Dina Katabi; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Potential Network Coding IRTF activity
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We (ISAE) are also interested in participating to this group.
>>>>>> We have developed an on-the-fly coding library which will be soon released under GPL licence with a focus on improving interactive multimedia applications such as video-conferencing apps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Emmanuel
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 07/11/2012 19:53, Muriel Medard wrote:
>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> thank you very much to Victor for initiation this. I would be delighted to participate. I should preface this with saying that I have not participated in such a from before and shall ask ahead of time for your forbearance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would be glad to send some of the work we have been doing on network coded TCP at the application layer; in the kernel and the NC/multipath TCP but do not wish to clog people's inboxes. Would that be of interest? Also, I have been working closely lately on this with Doug Leith of the Hamlton Institute. Would it be appropriate to have him join us?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Muriel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 7, 2012, at 1:26 PM, Firoiu, Victor (US SSA) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All:
>>>>>>>> I've added Muriel Medard and Dina Katabi of MIT and Tracey Ho and
>>>>>>>> Michelle Effors of CalTech to the list. They have been essential
>>>>>>>> contributors to NetCoding research.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kevin:
>>>>>>>> I agree, there is a part of NetCoding that has intersection with
>>>>>>>> reliable multicast. The objective of our NetCoding reserach group is
>>>>>>>> to look into implications of NetCoding in all layers, including
>>>>>>>> multicast transport. We will decide later the best venue to pursue
>>>>>>>> proposed standards, in existing or future IETF working groups.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vincent:
>>>>>>>> I think Network Coding includes FEC assisted transport as a
>>>>>>>> particular case. We can discuss this when we meet shortly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Victor Firoiu
>>>>>>>> BAE Systems
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/7/2012 1:10 PM, Fall, Kevin wrote:
>>>>>>>>> It seems like it would also be useful to distinguish any potential
>>>>>>>>> overlap in this activity and other previous WGs and RGs (e.g., RMRG
>>>>>>>>> and RMT).  Not that overlap would be a problem, per se, but clarity
>>>>>>>>> on what has been done in the past relative to this seems useful.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - K
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 11/7/12 9:15 AM PST, "Vincent Roca"<[email-masked]>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Brian for the information. I'll be there.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we need to discuss:
>>>>>>>>>> - the objectives (what fits in this activity), and
>>>>>>>>>> - the means (IRTF vs. IETF, i.e. long term research vs. engineering and
>>>>>>>>>> standards).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Briefly, concerning the objectives, I'd like to broaden the scope.
>>>>>>>>>> Instead of
>>>>>>>>>> network coding, I'd like we focus on "FEC Assisted Transport". I
>>>>>>>>>> like the acronym, FAT ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Network Coding naturally fits in FAT, but FAT is not limited to that.
>>>>>>>>>> New FEC codes (proposals exist and new ones may arrive) and new
>>>>>>>>>> ways of using FEC codes (proposal already exist too) fit in it as
>>>>>>>>>> well. It can also be a place where discussions on the use of FEC in
>>>>>>>>>> {RTP, FECFRAME, FLUTE, some other IETF transport protocols I may
>>>>>>>>>> not be aware of} can take place.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To the list of groups interested in the Network Coding aspects you
>>>>>>>>>> mention, and who are willing participate, please add ISAE and Inria
>>>>>>>>>> (both in France and active on the Tetrys solution).
>>>>>>>>>> NB: I've added Jerome Lacan, Manuel Lochin (ISAE) to the CC list
>>>>>>>>>> (even if they are not present).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Briefly, concerning the IRTF vs. IETF, we ("we" in its broader
>>>>>>>>>> sense) now have a good understanding on the "on-the-fly" network
>>>>>>>>>> coding techniques (e.g. those of MIT or ISAE to say that simply)
>>>>>>>>>> and trying to design standards can help. The same is true for the
>>>>>>>>>> other topics. I admit that some aspects TBD may better fit in a
>>>>>>>>>> more research group.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Vincent
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Le 7 nov. 2012 à 17:31, Brian Adamson a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Victor Firoiu and I met with Lars Eggert (IRTF Director) this
>>>>>>>>>>> morning to propose and discuss the potential way forward for an
>>>>>>>>>>> IRTF activity centered about Network Coding. Lars has agreed to
>>>>>>>>>>> provide us an opportunity to pursue this with providing a draft
>>>>>>>>>>> charter and identifying and initial community of interested
>>>>>>>>>>> parties.  He can also enable some preliminary meetings at the IETF
>>>>>>>>>>> for interested parties to discuss this (VIctor and I are going to
>>>>>>>>>>> try to have something for the upcoming Orlando IETF).  We will be
>>>>>>>>>>> putting together a mailing list and Wiki via IETF resources to get this going.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, if anyone is interested in discussing this in person
>>>>>>>>>>> while we are here at the IETF, some of us will be available
>>>>>>>>>>> following the MANET Working Group meeting this afternoon.  We can
>>>>>>>>>>> share our ideas on what goals would make sense for an initial stab
>>>>>>>>>>> at this in a research forum.  Feel free to forward this invitation
>>>>>>>>>>> / information to others so we can be inclusive as possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/31/12 8:34 AM PDT, "Brian
>>>>>>>>>>>> Adamson"<[email-masked]>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> FYI, there is potential interest in pursuing some IRTF activity
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the area of Network Coding.  People from BAE Systems, Lincoln
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laboratory, and MIT are interested among others.  The reason for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> IRTF rather than IETF activity is that some broader aspects /
>>>>>>>>>>>>> applications of networking coding may span multiple "layers",
>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.  If people are present and have time for it, it could be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible to organize a side meeting on Wed or Thur this week
>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the IETF in Atlanta.  Please let me know if you (or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> others you know) would be interested in participating.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some my "off the cuff" thoughts about areas of consideration include:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) Encoding techniques
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) Packet formats
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) End-to-end vs. hop-by-hop (intra-flow and inter-flow)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4) Architectural considerations (control plane and forwarding
>>>>>>>>>>>>> plane and transport (layer 4)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5) Application-layer network coding (The DTN IRTF group had a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> recent presentation / discussion on network coding for DTN)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6) Service paradigms (best effort, time-bounded utility, etc)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> best regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brian Adamson
>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Emmanuel Lochin
>>>>>> Professeur ISAE - OSSI
>>>>>> Institut Supérieur de l'Aéronautique et de l'Espace (ISAE) Issu du rapprochement SUPAERO et ENSICA
>>>>>> 10 avenue Edouard Belin - BP 54032 - 31055 Toulouse cedex 4 Tel : 05 61 33 91 85 - Fax : 05 61 33 91 88 Web : http://personnel.isae.fr/emmanuel-lochin/
>>>>>> ---
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