Subject: RE: Comments to draft-ietf-pkix-logotypes-05.txt

From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 07:29:55 -0700

> *** 4th paragraph on page 9: Unfortunate use of 
> patent-encumbered formats
> 'Implementations that support audio MUST support the MP3 
> audio format (with a MIME type of "audio/mpeg").'
> 
> I would propose to make MP3 optional, and make OGG VORBIS 
> ("audio/x-vorbis") a MUST
> 
> Proposed wording:
> 'Implementations that support audio MUST support the OGG 
> Vorbis format (with a MIME type of "audio/x-vorbis"), and 
> might support the MP3 audio format (with a MIME type of "audio/mpeg")'

I agree we have to change from MUST under IETF IP policy.

'Might' is not standards speak. 

What is the advantage to requiring support for a particular format? There is
none on the CA side since the CA can opt to only include a particular format
(Wave for example).

On the client side the format may well be set by other considerations, i.e.
if I am going to put a sound in the cert it is proabably because the format
is already supported on the platform, I can't see someone implementing Ogg
on an MP3 player just to play the cert jingles...

		Phill

---

From: Paul Hoffman / IMC <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 08:45:36 -0700

At 6:33 PM +0200 9/22/02, David Maurus wrote:
>*** 4th paragraph on page 9: Unfortunate use of patent-encumbered formats
>'Implementations that support audio MUST support the MP3 audio 
>format (with a MIME type of "audio/mpeg").'
>

It is really likely that the IESG (or at least IANA) will strenuously 
object to an "x-" mediatype. They should.

>=> Selling any software capable of playing this extension would be 
>subject to mp3 licensing terms, i.e. would require obtaining a 
>license from Thomson.

The fact that we know that there are intellectual property issues 
with the MP3 format doesn't mean that we *don't* know that there are 
intellectual property issues with OGG.

>=> While currently, Thomson does not charge licensing fees for 
>*freely* distributed player software, this might change in the 
>future. This would make it illegal to use free / Open Source 
>software supporting the logo extension without having a license from 
>Thomson.

We have no proof that the same won't happen to OGG.

>=> Selling hardware (Personal Trusted Devices?) playing 
>logotype-audio would be commercially unattractive

<aside>Many people on this mailing list would say that is a good thing</aside>

>Ogg Vorbis is considered patent free, offers better quality than mp3 
>according to recent studies, and is available in numerous free 
>implementations and as source code with a BSD style license.

"considered patent free" is a bad phrase to use in the IETF, 
particularly in the PKIX WG.

The audio format debate has been raging for years in the VPIM working 
group. If you really want to make a change to this, go spend some 
time in their archives and then suggest an acceptable type. In the 
meantime, MP3 is a common format with a wide variety of encoders and 
decoders available, some of them freely.

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--Internet Mail Consortium